HEAD N - MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

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Head N - Ministry of Foreign Affairs

The Chairman: Head N - Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Ms Indranee Rajah.

ASEAN

Ms Indranee Rajah: Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head N of the Estimates be reduced by $100.

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Singapore has been a member of ASEAN for several decades. And from time to time, there are queries on the effectiveness of ASEAN as an organisation, its direction and its ability to get its members to act in a concerted manner on specific issues. Allegations are sometimes made that ASEAN has no teeth, that it cannot enforce its decisions.

I would therefore like to ask the Minister the following questions with respect to ASEAN. I would like to ask him for his views on the continuing viability of ASEAN as an organisation and its value and usefulness to the region as a whole. I would also like to ask, what is Singapore's interest in maintaining its membership and participation in ASEAN, and also for an update on what was achieved during the 13th ASEAN Summit; also, for an update on the status of the ASEAN Charter.

With Singapore's current chairmanship of ASEAN, what do we hope that ASEAN can achieve, going forward during our tenure of the chairmanship and the strategy for ASEAN, looking ahead? At the same time, whilst ASEAN is in the Southeast Asian region, ASEAN cannot remain untouched by the greater Asia Pacific region of which it is a part. I would therefore like to ask the Minister for an update on the status of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) and APEC's place in the regional architecture and why participation in APEC is in Singapore's interest.

Ms Irene Ng Phek Hoong (Tampines): Sir, to become a rules-based organisation, ASEAN must share a common understanding of what is good behaviour and what is bad towards the grouping as a whole as well as towards its own citizens.

The ASEAN Charter has established some common ground rules, resolving to be an institution governed by the rule of law, respecting human rights and

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democracy, and promoting good governance. ASEAN should demonstrate solidarity in not only ratifying the Charter, but in its readiness to help each other to achieve the ideals spelt out in the Charter and to hold each other up to it.

Sir, good governance in ASEAN countries can improve the prospects of growth in this region and help its neighbours to also prosper. This is because good governance can be a competitive advantage. In this globalised world, where the contagion effect is real, businessmen want transparency, rule of law, political stability and an effective government able to respond to changes rapidly. As we work towards achieving the ASEAN Economic Committee by 2015, we should hence give more weight to the building of stronger governing practices in ASEAN.

Sir, at this stage, with Myanmar and its appalling human rights record and poor governance, it is hard to see how ASEAN can remain a credible grouping if its common ground rules and ideals are blatantly flouted by a member with little signs of real progress. After the Charter is ratified, will members be prepared to take measures against those who continuously flout its principles and rules? Or will it yet be another consultative mechanism without any teeth? What does it mean then to become a rules-based organisation?

Can I also ask the Minister how he expects the proposed ASEAN human rights body to work and to bring tangible benefits to the lives of the people in this region? Does Singapore also intend to set up a human rights commission as part of the process? To build a sense of solidarity and identity, ASEAN should also reach out to the public to explain why ASEAN integration is a good thing and how it will improve their lives.

Can I ask the Minister to explain how it will benefit the ordinary Singaporean?

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Does it mean ease of travel, ability to turn to an ASEAN Embassy when abroad and so on? I would like to ask the Minister for an assessment and to tell us about the way forward.

ASEAN Charter

Mr Michael Palmer (Pasir Ris-Punggol): Sir, the ASEAN Charter is a milestone in the development of ASEAN. This House was recently told that in order to ensure that ASEAN realises its whole potential, we need to bring the Charter into force as soon as possible and that is a key priority.

Three months on, I believe that only four countries have ratified the Charter, including Singapore. Some countries like the Philippines have said that they will not ratify the Charter until Myanmar embraces democracy and releases opposition leader, Aung San Suu Kyi. Could the Minister please tell us which countries have yet to ratify the Charter? What is the timeline for the ratification, whether there are any countries which he envisages may not ratify the Charter, and if so, why? Does the Charter come into effect if any of the member states fails to ratify it?

One of the aims of the Charter is to transform ASEAN into a more effective and rules-based organisation, thereby leading to greater ASEAN integration. A key instrument in the integration process is the Charter. We are told that ASEAN has made good efforts in its integration process because the leaders share a common view that each member country is better off with a strong ASEAN. But then, we have Myanmar.

When civil unrest broke out in Myanmar last year, ASEAN made attempts to help Myanmar. All attempts and approaches by ASEAN were rebuffed. Myanmar chose only to deal with the United Nations. Unfortunately, the position and attitude of Myanmar throughout has not shown any desire on

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its part to be integrated with ASEAN. Could the Minister share his views on how does the experience with Myanmar square with the efforts to make ASEAN more integrated?

I would also like to ask the Minister his views on Indonesia signing of the Charter. Will they ratify it? And even if they do, will they abide by its terms? After all, it was about seven months before Indonesia signed the Charter that they signed the Extradition Treaty and Defence Cooperation Agreement (DCA). The Indonesians subsequently raised various issues concerning the DCA which I can only surmise as being a tactic aimed at scuttling implementation of the DCA. What makes us so sure that they will not do the same with the Charter? More importantly, does the ASEAN Charter contain any mechanisms which will encourage its signatories to abide by its terms and any decisions made pursuant to it?

This brings me to the last issue which I would like to raise - Article 14 of the Charter - the Human Rights Body. The Charter has resolved to create an ASEAN Human Rights Body but the Charter does not contain very much detail about the Human Rights Body, unlike the provisions relating to the ASEAN Community Councils. More significantly, it does not contain any provisions for enforcing human rights standards or any indication of what those standards may be. Could I ask the Minister when the Human Rights Body is likely to be established? How is this body going to be positioned in ASEAN and whether it will be given any powers?

ASEAN and Myanmar

Dr Ong Chit Chung (Jurong): Sir, the ASEAN Charter is a step forward, but will it be a toothless paper tiger?

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First of all, member states have to ratify the Charter by November this year and some states are already dragging their feet. Indonesian parliamentarians are opposing the ratification.

The Philippine President has declared that if the Myanmar government still rides roughshod over the people, the Philippines will not ratify the Charter.

2.00 pm

A well-known analyst, Mr Jusuf Wanandi, of Indonesia commented that, contrary to expectations, the ASEAN Charter did not speed up decision-making at all. How could ASEAN move forward when it is still held back by the unworkable formula of decision by consensus, whereby objection by member states is enough to derail ASEAN. If everything is by consensus, how can we move? We will all be tied up in knots. Although the Charter paints an enlarged role for the ASEAN Secretariat, very little has been done by way of financial commitment to fund the new ASEAN Secretariat. Who will pay for the extra salaries and expenses? With a few pennies in his pocket, do we expect the ASEAN Secretary-General to do wonders?

Sir, Myanmar stands out like a sore thumb in ASEAN. The weakness of the decision-making by consensus was most obvious in the last ASEAN Summit in Singapore in November 2007. A briefing by the UN Secretary-General's Special Representative, Prof. Gambari, on his visit to Myanmar was cancelled at the last minute because of the objection raised by Myanmar. The world was watching how ASEAN would handle Myanmar at this Summit, and ASEAN fell flat to the ground. All credibility was lost. ASEAN was held hostage by Myanmar and could do nothing in the face of Myanmar's intransigence.

Sir, I know that in geopolitical terms, it is better to keep Myanmar within

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ASEAN than to leave it out. It may help to prevent Myanmar from being too drawn into or be dependent on China, but there is a limit to the price for keeping Myanmar within the ASEAN fold. And Myanmar has not shown any remorse at all, and it is not listening to ASEAN.

There are some press reports that important world leaders have kept away from ASEAN, because of the Myanmar issue. And there are apparently great difficulties in confirming a meeting between ASEAN leaders and President George Bush at his Texas ranch - again over the issue of Myanmar. It is said that the First Lady, Laura Bush, would not welcome the Myanmar delegate there.

Ultimately, the real issue remains whether ASEAN, as a group, can get its act together and attract investments and trade, and compete with emerging giants like India and China.

ASEAN's Future Progress

The Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Manpower (Mr Hawazi Daipi): Sir, the signing of the ASEAN Charter by leaders in Singapore last year was a hallmark agreement. It paved the way towards a more integrated ASEAN whose conduct, as a regional grouping, is based on international rules, mutual development and benefits for its peoples. But the Charter is only as good as the commitment and willingness of individual member countries to operationalise it. I would like to ask the Minister's assessment on how well the Charter will bring ASEAN forward towards economic integration.

A few ASEAN countries have not ratified the Charter and indeed some may have problems signing the Charter within a year before the next Leaders' Summit. Does that mean that the intent of the ASEAN Charter will not be immediately

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implemented? In short, how will ASEAN deal with the possibility of some member countries not ratifying the Charter within one year?

Sir, on a broader point, the global economic, security, political, social and even climatic environments are fast changing. The rise of China and India as economic and potentially military giants, for example, would pose a big challenge for ASEAN. Can the Minister tell us what he thinks are likely to be the challenges facing ASEAN in the next 10 years? One question that will always be asked is how will ASEAN deal with the issue of Myanmar without causing a rift in the regional grouping as well as between ASEAN and its partner countries.

Developing Human Rights Policy

Prof. Thio Li-ann (Nominated Member): Mr Chairman, since 1967, security, trade, and economic development have been ASEAN priorities, while human rights have been marginalised as internal state matters. The explicit incorporation of human rights in the ASEAN Charter is momentous. It accepts that human rights are the common heritage of mankind, rather than to be viewed suspiciously as a politicised imposition of foreign standards by the so-called 'West'.

Previously, ASEAN has approached social welfare and poverty alleviation as a matter of 'human development' rather than "human rights", which are enforceable claims against the state, leashing state power. Human development focuses on government duties to run programmes to meet social needs like housing, education, health. However, who enforces such duties where the government fails in this task?

Singapore adopts a "human development" approach towards securing human

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welfare. Government leaders have argued that excessive emphasis on individual rights over community interests can be destabilising and retard development. Critics have called this an apology for power.

The counter retort may be: would Singaporeans prefer a right to housing, or a house? Times have changed. Minister Raymond Lim has said we are not allergic to human rights. But much remains to be done before rhetoric becomes reality and to ensure legitimate cultural differences do not undermine universal standards. I hope the Minister will consider the following points in developing human rights policy at the international, domestic and regional level.

At the international level, is the Government considering signing other treaties in addition to the ones on Genocide, Children and Women, which we signed in 1995? This would clarify the ambit of what it considers the 'hard core' of universally accepted human rights.

The Government once stated that substance was more important than form when asked whether it would sign the Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), pointing to our good race relations track record.

However, we cannot discount the effect of signing treaties, as a statement of principle to ourselves and the world. Let our pragmatism not be idealism-free. Signing CERD would underscore our commitment to racial equality and allow us to showcase our model of multi-racial harmony to the world, to lead by example.

Nor does the Government have to wait until our domestic law perfectly aligns with international standards. Certain human rights provide goals which

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countries realise progressively, not immediately. For example, CEDAW requires states to take measures to eliminate discrimination of women in political life; its oversight Committee recommends that women's participation in politics should reach a critical mass of 30-35% to have a real impact on political decision-making; 20% of our elected MPs are women after the last General Elections (up from 12%); the 35% target provides us with a human rights benchmark worth working towards.

Our foreign policy is driven by trade and security concerns. Perhaps some attention could be directed to the possibility of signing human rights treaties concerning race discrimination, disabled peoples' rights and socio-economic rights.

On the domestic front, one way we can go global is by going 'local', through embodying global standards in local laws or "glocalisation". For example, Article 12 of the Constitution could be amended to explicitly prohibit discrimination against women, rather than to leave it implicit. Malaysia has done so, giving effect to its CEDAW obligations.

While I realise signing a treaty or enacting anti-discrimination legislation may be more pious platitude than practical, let us not discount the role of the symbolic and how legal norms can accelerate positive social change.

We need a clear benchmark to ground human rights policy. I suggest recognising the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a minimal standard.

The UDHR was drafted in response to European Barbarism after World War Two; its drafters included experts drawn from the Confucian, Islamic, Hindu, Christian and Marxist tradition. It is holistic, and includes the three generations of civil-political, socio-economic and 'solidarity' rights. It is not a charter for radical

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individualism and recognises rights are limited by duties and the common good.

This year is the Declaration's 60th anniversary. Perhaps we should embrace and celebrate its standards, through school programmes and public education measures. This would be a positive way of domesticating human rights

Sir, one way to localise and develop global standards is through a national human rights institution, staffed by Singaporeans familiar with local conditions. Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines have adopted such institutions.

Do we need a dedicated rights-oriented institution, where the current preference is to deal with rights issues informally or ad hoc, through petitioning MPs or Ministries? Without discounting the importance of having good governors, certain points may be considered.

First, institutions are permanent and provide a systematic focal point for citizens to resort to, which enhances accountability.

Second, a national body can help us take ownership by carving out our vision of human rights. While accepting the concept of human rights, Singapore has disputed the interpretation and content of rights. For example, Minister Wong Kan Seng said at a 1993 UN human rights conference that Singaporeans did not accept pornography as free speech. A national body can help clarify the contours of rights by in-depth and contextualised consideration. Calling something a 'human right' does not make it so; an expert body can help develop guidelines to distinguish universal legal rights from narrow political claims, made in the name of human rights.

Singapore considers the amorphous right to development "fundamental". It could take the lead through a national

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expert body to concretise this right and make it "measurable", by developing indicia to determine whether socio-economic rights or welfare has been violated or realised. In so doing, it could underscore that this right goes beyond increasing GDP; individual welfare must be secured. The human right to development incorporates the need to ensure political participation in decision-making and equitable wealth distribution - these human rights standards help us evaluate the quality of the consultative process and Government policy in relation to social safety nets, as reflected in our public assistance schemes, Workfare, ComCare.

Lastly, at the regional level, will Singapore take a leading or back-seat role in fleshing out the terse Charter provision which provides for the establishment of an ASEAN human rights body, without stipulating its form or nature? To ensure something value-added, beyond lip service?

As the Charter aims to be people-centric, will non-Government bodies be involved in this process? Since the Charter does not identify any human rights standards, will Singapore seek a meaningful minimum, perhaps pegged to the UDHR or those UN treaties most ASEAN members are party to?

In terms of structure, realists are not expecting the sun and the moon in the form of a human rights court with compulsory jurisdiction, after the European model. However, would the Minister agree that the eventual body must not duplicate the UN state reporting process and must be something beyond a promotional talk-shop or think-tank?

Is it important that the body should have a protective function, perhaps allowing states and/or individuals a channel through which to raise concerns about alleged abuses before a

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supranational body, whether in public or private?

In 1993, Minister Wong Kan Seng said that "pragmatism and realism does not mean abdication." I hope not. The ASEAN Charter promises a human rights mechanism, but there is a gap between making and keeping promises. I am reminded of a line from a Robert Frost Poem: "the woods are lovely dark and deep. But I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep."

We look forward to the next step of ASEAN states to advance human rights and promote civilised governance, and we hope Singapore will take a leading role in this enterprise.

Dr Ong Chit Chung: Sir, Singapore's relations with Malaysia have improved significantly since Dato Sri Abdullah Badawi became Prime Minister. Singapore and Malaysia have made representations to the International Court of Justice in November last year, and the verdict will be known soon. Singapore has proved beyond all doubt that we have clear and uninterrupted sovereignty and control of Pedra Branca since the 19th century. We have indeed a very strong case. Whatever the outcome, we know that the Singapore and Malaysian governments are committed to accept the verdict. Dato Syed Hamid Albar, the Malaysian Foreign Minister, said that bilateral relations will be unaffected. Ms Lydia Lim of the Straits Times noted that if both sides manage to keep bilateral ties on an even keel whichever way the court rules, that would indeed signal a coming of age in relationships. Both countries should therefore prepare their own people for any eventual outcome and move on.

Singapore and Malaysia are close neighbours. We are in such close

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proximity that sometimes we have blind spots. It may help if we promote more people-to-people programmes, like student and teacher exchanges, joint R&D programmes amongst universities, cooperation amongst civic bodies and joint teaching programmes in hospitals.

There is much Singapore and Malaysia can cooperate, eg, the Iskandar Development Region (IDR). Singapore and Malaysia can jointly encourage businessmen to invest in the IDR. Sir, the IDR reminds me of the growth triangle. Should we not expand the scope and revitalise the growth triangle? It may be to the benefit of all countries, including Indonesia.

Talking about Indonesia, it appears that the Extradition Treaty and the Defence Cooperation Agreement with Indonesia have stalled. Have we rushed into such a proposal without taking into full consideration the internal dynamics of Indonesia? What are the prospects of such an agreement to be accepted? How would the anti-competition charges against Temasek Holdings affect bilateral relations and the future flow of investments into Indonesia?

Further north, Sir, relations with Thailand appear to have been on the mend, especially since the election of a new civilian government. The news reported that Mr Thaksin had returned to Thailand today. The civil service cooperation programme between Singapore and Thailand has been restarted.

I hope, therefore, that 2008 will see a good year in Singapore-Thai relationship.

Southeast Asia

Mr Hawazi Daipi: Sir, relations with neighbouring countries are critical to Singapore's well-being. We aspire for good relations. But there are ups and downs in relationship between neighbours partly because we compete with them

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even as we cooperate in those areas. I would like to ask the Minister to give an update on our relations with Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand as well as Vietnam.

What is the stage of our relationship with Indonesia despite the ongoing problems relating to the export ban on sand by Indonesia and the problem of Temasek's investment in telecom companies there, as well as the extradition treaty and defence agreement? Can the Minister also give an update on our relations with Malaysia in terms of new areas of cooperation and on the Pedra Branca case?

On Thailand, following the election of the new government, there seems to be a prospect of better relations. So, what is the state of affairs in our relationship with Thailand?

Vietnam is a fast-growing neighbour. How are we working with Vietnam in terms of economic cooperation as well as diplomatic relations?

Bilateral Relations with India and China

Ms Indranee Rajah: Sir, it is widely recognised that China and India are the new economic powerhouses in the globalised Asia and that part of Singapore's economic strategy is to leverage on the growth of these two countries. This, in turn, obviously necessitates greater interaction with them and shapes the direction of our foreign policy relations with them.

I would like to ask the Minister for an update of our bilateral relations with India and China, what progress has been made in the past year and what direction he sees it is going in the future? Whilst China and India have dominated the landscape, we also have strong trading relations with Japan and Korea and these have tended to be overshadowed by the buzz in relation to China and India. I would like to

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ask the Minister for a status report on our relationship with Japan and Korea.

China

Dr Ong Chit Chung: Sir, China is a rising power in Asia. I remember that when I first visited China in 1992, China had decided to open its doors to investment and trade. Many Chinese political and business leaders told me that China had much to learn from Singapore.

Now, when I visit China, I can see that China has leapfrogged and achieved tremendous economic development. Shanghai is very modern and very impressive, a beehive of economic activity; indeed, a rival to Hongkong and Singapore.

Now, China has less and less to learn from Singapore. A feather in the cap of the New China is the Olympics which will be held in August in Beijing.

The Taiwanese presidential election will soon be held and it is likely that the new Taiwanese President will start a new relationship with the Chinese leaders. Cross-straits relations will shift. Indeed, more than one million Taiwanese are working in China.

Even for Singapore, we may see more and more Singaporeans attracted to work and stay in China, a point highlighted by Minister Mentor. My question is: does China flex its muscles now that it is a rising power with potential superpower status? Considering East Asia as a whole, how would a new China impact Japan and Korea? How would the new South Korean President address these issues? We can expect change as he is styled as a new Asia Sarkosy. Our relations with South Korea is so far very low key. Can we do more? How then will the United States see its role in Asia? Will the US get less and less engaged in Asia, given its pre-occupation in Afghanistan and

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Iraq? That will make it more and more difficult to have a balance of power in Asia.

Middle East

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development (Dr Mohamad Maliki Bin Osman): Sir, over the last 10 years, we can see how we have expanded our economic wings to different parts of the world. In Asia, we have expanded to China and India, the two emerging giants of Asia, along with our continued engagement of our ASEAN partners.

In the last couple of years, we have also started expanding into the Middle East, as another emerging market. We see our senior political leaders making trips to the region and we see our business people investing and securing various projects in the Middle-eastern cities. Middle East also has promise in the areas of tourism and financial services as we attract more Middle-easterners here and as we expand the potential of Islamic banking in Singapore.

Sir, engaging the Middle East should not only be limited to the economic sphere. While our engagement in the Middle East has thus far been confined to the political and business community, I would like to ask the Minister if MFA has plans to expand the levels of engagement, including more people-to-people interactions through social, cultural and educational exchange programmes between Singapore and the Middle-eastern countries?

Sir, the Muslim world, particularly the Middle East, is a relatively unknown terrain to many Singaporeans. With the constant global spotlight on Islamic radicalism, I think it is timely that we catalysed greater interaction between

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Singaporeans and the people of the Middle East.

There is a Malay saying that says " Tak kenal maka tak cinta " or "You cannot fall in love without knowing the person". Increasing opportunities of interaction at the people-to-people level will enable Singaporeans to appreciate the cultures, belief systems and practices of people of the Middle East; perhaps, also clearing some misperceptions that they may have, will, of course, expose the Middle-eastern counterparts to appreciate a multi-racial society like Singapore.

Thus, I would like to ask the Minister what is MFA's plans for a more holistic approach in engaging the Middle East?

Mr Hawazi Daipi: Sir, I would like to talk about the Middle East too. In the last few years, we have stepped up diplomatic and economic relations with countries in the Middle East. Our leaders have visited many countries there. Some Singapore companies have invested there too. On our part, we also try to attract investments from the Middle East.

What has been the success of this drive to step up relations with the region? Do our private sector companies actually have the resources to meet the needs for investment in the various Middle-eastern countries? Working with a new region requires us to understand their custom, culture as well as religion. This is an opportunity for Singaporeans to learn about the Arab culture and customs as well as about Islam, so that Singaporeans can relate better to their counterparts or partners or co-workers if they invest or work in the Middle East.

We also need to understand the dynamics in the Middle East through research and dialogues. We can tap on Singapore's own Arab and Islamic heritage to forge closer relations with countries in the Middle East. How is this

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being done? Are there programmes to enhance the people-to-people relations between Singapore and countries in the Middle East?

Middle East Institute

Mr Zainudin Nordin (Bishan-Toa Payoh): Sir, the Middle East region is one of Singapore's more important trading partners, outside our immediate economic neighbourhood in Asia and traditional markets like US and EU. The trade volume between Singapore and the Middle East has been increasing steadily and it is still far from reaching its fullest potential.

For the past three years, senior Singaporean Government Ministers, including Prime Minister, Senior Minister and President S R Nathan, have made official visits to the Middle East and created new thrusts for the deepening of bilateral ties between Singapore and countries in the Middle East.

In addition to diplomatic exchanges, these visits have managed to enhance bilateral political representations, helped the establishment of a new-joint Chambers of Commerce, fostered trade and investment agreements and other business initiatives, including the recent promotion of Singapore as a regional centre for Islamic banking.

Sir, I am glad to note that the 2008 Budget has introduced a 5% concessionary tax rate for income derived from qualifying Syariah-compliant products. Our strong financial regulatory framework, coupled with the right incentives, will help position Singapore as a hub for Islamic banking and draw in key global players.

Sir, on this basis, I would like to enquire on the progress of the Middle East Institute at the university. Have we crystalised the vision, mission and objective of this Institute? What is it supposed to be? Has any plans and

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timelines been drawn for the establishment of this Institute? Have we considered the resources and talents to man it? What are the opportunities for our local talents to be actively involved in contributing to this Institute?

The Chairman: Ms Indranee Rajah, you have two cuts. Take them together, please.

New Foreign Policy Initiatives

Ms Indranee Rajah: Sir, my parliamentary colleagues and I have so far focused on the more immediate neighbourhood, ie, ASEAN and the Asia Pacific. Perhaps, taking a longer or a broader view, I would like to ask the Minister to give us an overview of our other international relationships, such as with Europe and also the US, particularly having regard to the fact that they are having presidential elections. I think most of us have been watching to see what is going to happen. But whatever the outcome, I think we would like to know whether that is likely to have an impact on our relationship with the US. Also, as foreign policy relations are not static, may I ask the Minister whether we have any new foreign policy initiatives or whether there are any new countries or areas that we intend to engage?

Foreign Policy and Environment

Moving on to foreign policy and environment, I would like to touch on the topic of climate change which is very much an issue that is attracting attention today. We have clearly seen that there is a greater need for cooperation at the international level to deal with environmental issues. The haze is one example, but there are, of course, other issues related to natural disasters and environmental matters which people feel are traceable to global warming. There is clearly a greater impetus and a call for developed nations to cooperate to protect

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the environment, reduce gas emissions, control pollution and legislate to cope with the problem of global warming. Can I ask the Minister to comment on Singapore's approach to climate change negotiations as well as Singapore's position on the Kyoto Protocol and what would be the landscape after 2012?

The Chairman: Order. I propose to take the break now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 2.50 pm.

Sitting accordingly suspended

at 2.30 pm until 2.50 pm.

Sitting resumed at 2.50 pm

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]:

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]: Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head N (cont.) -

The Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr George Yong-Boon Yeo): Mr Chairman, Sir, let me first thank Members for the comments and questions on Singapore's foreign policy. With globalisation, the management of Singapore's external relations has become more important for our security and economic development. Last year, we hosted the ASEAN Summit. Next year, we will host the APEC Leaders' Meeting. It is good that on matters of foreign relations, all MPs, including Opposition MPs and NMPs, are generally in support of the Government. This is a great strength for us.

Let me first talk about ASEAN, an important subject raised by Ms Indranee

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Rajah, Mr Michael Palmer, Dr Ong Chit Chung, Mr Hawazi Daipi and Ms Irene Ng.

Last November's Summit was a success. It was auspicious for the ASEAN Charter to be signed at ASEAN’s 40th Anniversary. It is a document which opens a new chapter in regional integration. At the Retreat of ASEAN Foreign Ministers in Sentosa last week, we agreed on a plan of action to implement the Charter. We had a smooth meeting which ended two hours ahead of schedule. There was a strong spirit of solidarity and common enterprise.

Among the items to be followed up on is the drafting of provisions for a formal dispute settlement mechanism provided for in the Charter, and this will help us to create a systematic way for the resolution of disputes. While consensus is a general principle for decision making in ASEAN, it does not need to apply in all cases. Under the economic blueprint, for example, we do have provisions for “10 minus X” or “two plus X” involvement of member countries. The key here is that those who are not yet able to join in, should be able to join in when they are ready at a later point in time.

For the big issues, they should generally be resolved by consensus, but sometimes it is not possible when it involves a particular country which has been difficult. Take, for instance, the issue of Myanmar. The fact that we operate on a consensus principle did not prevent us in the past from calling for the release of Aung San Suu Kyi. Members will remember that during the ASEAN Summit in Singapore after the informal dinner hosted by Prime Minister, nine leaders of ASEAN stood together to issue a statement on Myanmar, following the refusal of Myanmar’s Prime Minister to agree to an ASEAN meeting with UN Special Envoy Gambari. So that statement was not a “consensus statement”. It was a “minus one” statement and it was a

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statement about the “minus one”. What I am saying is, yes, it is right that the general principle should be one of consensus decision making, but it need not apply in all cases and it has not applied in all cases. For the most important issues, the matter will be decided by the leaders operating as a committee of peers setting their own rules for decision making and over time, a certain wisdom develops.

The Foreign Ministers agreed that the ASEAN Secretariat must be strengthened quickly. The new Secretary General, Dr Surin Pitsuwan, was authorised to recruit two Deputy Secretary Generals from 1st November this year. Dr Surin took over from Ong Keng Yong at the beginning of the year, and I must inform the House that Ong Keng Yong, one of our senior diplomats, did Singapore proud during his tenure as the Sec-Gen of ASEAN. To answer Dr Ong Chit Chung, we recognise that the Secretariat’s budget has to be increased and have tasked senior officials to look into this on an urgent basis. To reduce the need for travel, ASEAN member countries will appoint ambassadors to the Secretariat in Jakarta from January next year.

For the ASEAN Charter to come into force, all countries must ratify it and this is a point that I would like to make in reply to Mr Palmer. So far, four countries have done so: Singapore, Brunei, Malaysia and Laos. The others should do so in the coming months. There could be a problem with the Philippines because the Congress has linked ratification to progress being made in the political situation in Myanmar. However, the Foreign Ministers were on the whole cautiously optimistic that the Philippines will not hold back the ratification of the ASEAN Charter. In fact, it is only after the Charter has come into force that we can hold the Myanmar Government to account, to the standards that it has signed on to, a point which Ms Irene Ng made. As for the Indonesian

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DPR, which Mr Palmer and Ms Ng doubted would ratify the Charter, I received this news from the German Foreign Minister just this morning. He came from Jakarta and we had a bilateral meeting just before I came to Parliament and he told me, and he said this to the media so this is something that I can divulge publicly, that Hassan Wirajuda told him that he expected the Indonesia DPR to ratify the Charter by June this year, so we do have reasons to be optimistic. The remaining problem I believe would be the Philippines but even from the Filipino viewpoint, it would be better to ratify the Charter and thereafter to hold the Myanmar government to account than not to do so, letting the Myanmar government off the hook.

The question of Myanmar was raised by Ms Indranee Rajah, Mr Michael Palmer, Ms Irene Ng, Dr Ong Chit Chung and Mr Hawazi Daipi. During the Retreat, the Myanmar Foreign Minister briefed us on the 7-step roadmap to democracy, which until the beginning of last month had no timeline. For the first time, the SPDC (State Peace and Development Council) Government announced that a referendum on a new constitution will be held in May and based on it, elections will be held in 2010, after which the reins of power will be handed over to the new government. Foreign Minister Nyan Win expected the draft constitution to be made public at the end of March. He also said that any citizen who has a foreign husband or children holding foreign passports will be disqualified from the elections. He informed us that this provision was in the 1974 Constitution and is not new.

Although ASEAN Foreign Ministers saw the timetable as a positive development, we expressed a certain scepticism about the entire process because we have been disappointed so many times before in the past. The new Constitution was drafted without the

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participation of the NLD (National League for Democracy) and other groups. It is also unlikely that the SPDC Government will allow international verification of the voting process. ASEAN Foreign Ministers stressed the importance of independent verification for the referendum and elections to be credible. As for the disqualification of Aung San Suu Kyi from standing as a candidate for elections, ASEAN Foreign Ministers registered their dismay although some recognised that this was a decision for the people of Myanmar to make at the referendum. But whatever the constitution approved, provided it is a genuine referendum, it would represent a step forward because the people of Myanmar would then be able to express their views at the ballot box in 2010. Aung San Suu Kyi was not allowed to stand as a candidate in the 1990 elections, but that did not stop her party, the NLD, from achieving an overwhelming majority.

Prof. Thio Li-ann, Ms Irene Ng and Mr Michael Palmer raised the issue of human rights. The ASEAN Charter provides for a human rights body to be established, but the nature of that body has yet to be determined. Let me assure Dr Ong Chit Chung that it will not be a toothless paper tiger. At the Retreat last week, the Foreign Ministers agreed that officials will first meet to discuss the terms of reference for a panel of experts to draft the provisions for such a body. The terms of reference will be proposed for our consideration at the coming ASEAN Ministerial Meeting in July.

To be sure, the human rights body will be a contentious subject. Some ASEAN countries prefer a body which has no teeth because there is justifiable concern that Western countries and NGOs will make use of it to interfere in their domestic politics. Others make the opposite argument, that a credible human

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rights body will help us address this issue on our own terms. It is precisely because of a lack of agreement among ASEAN countries that the human rights body was called a 'body' and not a 'commission'. My own guess is that we will have in the end a body which, while lacking in teeth, will at least have a tongue and a tongue will have its uses.

Prof. Thio asked about Singapore's position on the ratification of certain UN human rights conventions with respect to migrant workers, torture, racial discrimination and other subjects, and whether it is not time to establish a National Human Rights Commission here. So far, Singapore has signed on the UN Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. We have not yet signed on the others because of reservations on some specific provisions such as corporal punishment and the death penalty. We will periodically review our position in the light of evolving international norms and practices.

It is not uncommon for countries to sign on these conventions while blithely ignoring their commitments in actual practice. We, on our part, take our commitments seriously and are therefore reluctant to commit to provisions

that we do not agree with fully. As for the National Human Rights Commission, it is not clear to us that the establishment of such bodies in a number of countries has made a significant difference to the human rights condition. Many countries without human rights commissions are able to maintain high standards of human rights like Singapore. In our case, we have provisions either in the Constitution or in statute to safeguard the rights of racial and religious minorities, women, children and workers, including migrant workers. They allow Singaporeans to enjoy a high degree of civil liberty and personal security in their daily lives. I know this is not a complete answer to Prof. Thio Li-

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ann who made quite an impassioned plea but some of the things she said really go beyond my remit as Foreign Minister.

3.00 pm

Dr Ong Chit Chung, Ms Indranee Rajah, Mr Hawazi Daipi and Ms Irene Ng asked about the future of ASEAN and the challenges it faces. Let me break down my answers into the internal and external challenges which are related.

Internally, we must keep pushing the integration of ASEAN so that we have an ASEAN Community of 550 million inhabitants with a sense of ASEAN citizenship by the year 2015. In addition to the Economic Blueprint which was signed last year, we need also the Political/Security Blueprint and the Social/Cultural Blueprint. There are many things we have to do in the public, private and people sectors. One specific problem we must continue to address is closing the developmental gap between the older and newer members. Happily, the Indo-Chinese countries are now making good economic progress. As for Myanmar, well, the key there is political reform, without which the economy will continue to flounder.

Externally, the challenge for ASEAN is to engage all our major partners in a mutually-beneficial way so that all of them have a strong interest in our unity and well-being, and our own position in the world is naturally balanced. To achieve this, we must be fair and neutral to all our partners, ensure the freedom and security of the airways and the sealanes, and strengthen economic cooperation in all directions. In addition, we must press on with the regional construction especially ASEAN+3, EAS (East Asia Summit), APEC (Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation) and ASEM (Asia Europe Meeting). We are also promoting ministerial links with regions farther away. With the Middle East, we have AMED

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(Asia Middle East Dialogue) and a proposed ministerial meeting with the GCC (Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf) countries this year. With Latin America, we have FEALAC (Forum for East Asia and Latin America Cooperation) and a proposed ministerial meeting with MERCOSUR (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay), also this year. Now I mention all these abbreviations and acronyms not to befuddle you, but just to give you a sense of all the activities that we are engaged in to create a larger environment which is to our benefit. The key ingredient in this alphabet soup is our collective interest as ASEAN countries, and this we will strive to achieve.

To answer Ms Indranee Rajah and Dr Ong Chit Chung, beyond ASEAN, APEC remains the most important regional organisation for us. Collectively, the 21 APEC economies make up more than half the world's GDP and trade. Among them are major powers like the US, Japan, China and Russia. Their good relations with one another determine whether this century is a peaceful one for us. The US-China relationship, in particular, is of decisive importance. Dr Ong Chit Chung asked about Cross-Strait relations between Mainland China and Taiwan. Although the outcome of the coming Presidential elections in Taiwan will have some impact on Cross-Strait relations, the critical factor is not Taiwanese domestic politics but US-China relations.

Both the Mainland and Taiwan, and Hong Kong as well, are members of APEC which makes the organisation uniquely inclusive. But we must be clear that Taiwan and Hong Kong participate as economies, not as countries. And upon this clear understanding, there is growing support for the establishment of a Free Trade Area of the Asia Pacific in the long term. This is an important long range objective because the health of the multilateral trading system will increasing

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ly depend on the leadership of the economies in the Asia Pacific.

Next year, Singapore will host the APEC Leaders Meeting which will be attended by new leaders from the US, Russia, Japan, Korea and Australia. It will be the most significant gathering of world leaders ever to be held in Singapore. We see the US remaining the leading player in the Asia Pacific for decades to come. To answer Ms Indranee Rajah, whether the next President is a Republican or a Democrat, whether it is McCain or Clinton or Obama, we do not see a major change in US policy towards Asia or in our bilateral relationship.

Mr Hawazi Daipi and Dr Ong Chit Chung spoke about our relations with Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and Vietnam. On the whole, we have excellent relations with all our ASEAN neighbours and all of them have significant numbers of their citizens working or studying in our country. We are grateful for their contributions to our society.

Our relations with Malaysia have been improving in the last two to three years. PM Lee had a very good retreat with PM Abdullah Badawi in Langkawi last May. We are now cooperating on the Iskandar Development Region through the Joint Ministerial Committee, with Malaysia setting the pace. Both sides see benefit in greater connectivity between Johor and Singapore, but I agree with Dr Ong that we can do more to promote greater friendship between our two peoples who indeed share so much in common.

Ms Indranee Rajah, Mr Hawazi Daipi and Dr Ong Chit Chung were concerned that the judgment on Pedra Branca by the International Court of Justice (ICJ) might affect good relations between the two sides. I believe this will not happen because both sides have agreed for the

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dispute to be adjudicated by the ICJ. Indeed both governments have stated publicly more than once that they will abide by the judgment of the ICJ when it is made some time later this year.

With Indonesia, bilateral relations remain strong although we were not able to see through the Extradition Treaty (ET) and the Defence Cooperation Agreement (DCA) signed last year. Both sides have agreed to set aside the ET and DCA for the time being and I am happy to inform Ms Rajah and Dr Ong that both sides are also determined not to let this issue affect overall bilateral relations.

Like with Malaysia, Singapore has strong economic links with Indonesia. For example, we are each other's most important source of tourists. We continue to cooperate closely in many areas including the development of Special Economic Zones (SEZs) in Batam, Bintan and Karimun, in fighting fires in Jambi, controlling bird flu in Tangerang and in rebuilding Aceh. The DPR has passed a law for the establishment of SEZs in Batam, Bintan and Karimun and a special council is being formed to oversee their development. We have a bilateral ministerial committee co-chaired by Indonesian Coordinating Minister Boediono and Minister Lim Hng Kiang to facilitate cooperation.

Dr Ong Chit Chung also asked about sand and the recent decision by Indonesian regulatory authorities on investments by Singapore in Indosat and in Telkomsel. So far as sand is concerned, to the extent that environmental damage is a problem, we are quite prepared to work with Indonesia and this offer remains on the table. But otherwise it is a decision for Indonesia to make and we respect whatever decision they make. Of course it is a waste that instead of sourcing sand from nearby, we have to import sand from further away, making it more expensive for us and leaving money

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on the table which both sides can share otherwise. As for the decision on Indosat and Telkomsel, this is a decision before Indonesian courts, and it is best that they be pursued through Indonesian legal channels. Indonesia ministers are well aware that the outcome of these two cases will affect the way foreign investors look at opportunities in Indonesia.

Dr Ong asked about the progress of the Indonesia-Malaysia-Singapore Growth Triangle. This was in fact an idea first mooted by Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong in 1989. Although we have not had meetings for many years, the time may be ripe to revive it, or to use Dr Ong’s words, to revitalise it.

With the return of democratic government to Thailand, bilateral relations have been fully normalised. The new Thai Foreign Minister Noppadon Pattama made his first bilateral overseas visit to Singapore last week. It was a friendly gesture which we appreciated. We agreed that both the Civil Service Exchange Programme (CSEP) and the Singapore Thailand Enhanced Economic Relationship (STEER) should be restored at an early date. I have accepted Minister Noppadon's invitation to visit Bangkok for the next meeting of CSEP, the civil service exchange programme in the first half of this year. Members of this House will remember that the Thai side cancelled the last CSEP meeting and dis-invited me following the hosting of a private dinner by DPM Jayakumar for former Thai PM Thaksin. Minister Noppadon also encouraged Singapore companies to invest in Thailand assuring us of a more liberal investment environment. We are looking forward to the introductory visit of the new Thai PM Samak Sundaravej next month.

Singapore's bilateral relations with Vietnam are growing from strength to strength. In fact, at this very moment, President Nathan is in Vietnam on a state

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visit and Prime Minister Lee has invited the General Secretary of Vietnam's Communist Party, Mr Nong Duc Manh, to visit Singapore this year. Singapore is a major source of FDI for Vietnam and bilateral trade between the two countries has been growing steadily. The Framework Agreement on Singapore-Vietnam Connectivity signed in November 2005 has facilitated several joint projects.

I agree with Ms Indranee Rajah and Dr Ong Chit Chung that the three Northeast Asian countries of China, Japan and Korea are very important to us. Just last year, we celebrated the 10th Anniversary of ASEAN+3. The improvement in China-Japan relations has made the creation of an East Asian community easier.

Both Ms Rajah and Dr Ong underlined the importance of our relations with China. Indeed bilateral relations have become much broader and deeper than they were in the past. The Joint Council on Bilateral Cooperation now covers a wide range of subjects. The official visit of Premier Wen Jiabao in November last year was very successful. During the visit, Premier Wen and PM Lee signed the agreement to develop an eco-city in Tianjin. This is a project comparable in significance to the Suzhou Industrial Park which was started in 1994.

More than economic projects, our bilateral relations with China have become multi-layered and multi-faceted. Thousands of Singaporeans now work in China and tens of thousands of Chinese work in Singapore. There are now over 2,500 Chinese companies operating here and, each time I check, the number is higher.

When Singapore won the bid to host the first Youth Olympics, the Chinese Ambassador Zhang Xiaokang immediately wrote a letter to Prime Minister Lee offering China's assistance to us. We are touched by the gesture and will certainly take up the offer, for there is much that

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we can learn from China’s own experience.

More than any other country, Japan has played a critical role in integrating the economies of Southeast Asia. Our relations with Japan are excellent. During PM's official visit to Japan last March, the two sides agreed to establish a Japan Creative Centre in Singapore. Mediacorp has also worked with its Japanese counterparts to broadcast Japan Hour into the region. As we all know, Japan Hour has for years been one of the most popular docu-entertainment programmes on local television.

Our relations with Korea are also very good. Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong has just made a successful visit to the country and had a warm meeting with the new President, Lee Myung-bak. Members of the House will be intrigued to hear that during the last presidential campaign, Singapore was often held up as a model for Korea. Senior Minister Goh also visited the Gaesong Industrial Park across the DMZ in North Korea. When our FTA with Korea was negotiated, we agreed to include Gaesong in order to promote economic development in North Korea. This provision was later incorporated into ASEAN's FTA with Korea. In May this year, I will be making an official visit to North Korea. At our recent Retreat, the ASEAN Foreign Ministers authorised me to propose that Pyongyang accede to ASEAN's Treaty of Amity and Cooperation.

3.15 pm

Singapore's relations with India are bearing fruit. Our early support of India's economic reform policy has proved to be right. I share Ms Indranee Rajah's view that India is an important friend and partner. Indeed we see India as a major player, not only in Asia, but in the world.

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When Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee visited Singapore last June, we agreed that relations should be raised to a higher plane, beyond just economic cooperation. We have established a Joint Ministerial Committee which will meet every year. An India-Singapore Strategic Dialogue will have its inaugural session in May. We want India to take up its rightful position in our region and see it playing an important role in the East Asia Summit. Without the personal intervention of Foreign Minister Mukherjee and PM Manmohan Singh, the wonderful exhibition on Nalanda now going on at the ACM (Asian Civilisations Museum) could not have been put together. Singapore's defence links with India are also growing. An important agreement between the two air forces was signed last year, and other defence links are being explored.

Ms Indranee Rajah asked for an update on our relations with Europe. They are, on the whole, excellent. Last November, we celebrated the 30th Anniversary of ASEAN-EU Dialogue Partnership. Although negotiations for an ASEAN-EU Free Trade Agreement have run into some difficulties, Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson is considering moving ahead earlier with countries which are ready. Singapore supports such flexibility provided the door is not shut on the other members of ASEAN.

The European Union is an inspiration to us in Singapore and an inspiration to us in ASEAN on how tribal nations locked for centuries in conflict are able to overcome historical differences to live in peace and address common challenges together. Singapore has been an ardent advocate of a stronger European presence in Southeast Asia, not only economic but also political and cultural. The current exhibition of 'Greek Masterpieces from the Louvre' at the National Museum, for example, has attracted many visitors. During PM Lee's recent visit to Paris, both sides agreed on a project to exhibit

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treasures from French museums in Singapore on a regular basis. European cultural institutes in Singapore like the Italian Cultural Institute and the German Goethe-Institute often organise film festivals and bring in theatre groups. As part of the 20th Anniversary celebration of the fall of the Berlin Wall on 9th November 2009, we will unveil a 16-foot stretch of the Wall with graffiti painting of two kings on one side at Bedok Reservoir. This powerful symbol of freedom is a long-term loan to us by an American couple, Robert and MeiLi Hefner. The German Ambassador and members of the German community in Singapore are helping us with this exciting project, among many others. The project is led by a group of young individuals from Youth Empire and has been keenly supported by local entertainers like Sheikh Haikel and Kumar. And I had a wonderful discussion with Minister Steinmeier just an hour ago at MFA about this project.

Dr Maliki, Mr Hawazi and Mr Zainudin raised questions about our relations with the Middle East. It is becoming a new frontier for us full of opportunities although not without risk. In the last few years, our relations with countries in the Middle East have seen a sea change. High level bilateral visits have become commonplace, almost occurring every month.

We have stepped up our exchanges with all six countries of the GCC. Last month, negotiations for an FTA with the GCC were successfully concluded and this opens a new chapter in our relations with countries in the Gulf. Our companies are increasing their presence in that region and generally enjoy a good reputation. We are also working with the Middle East on third-country projects. For example, the Qatar Government partners Keppel in the development of the eco-city in Tianjin.

Egypt is an old friend with whom we continue to maintain strong political links.

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I will be making an official visit to Cairo in April before attending the second AMED meeting in Sharm el Sheikh. AMED was an idea first mooted by Singapore and had its first meeting here in Singapore two years ago.

Since the establishment of diplomatic relations with Libya, which I talked about last year, our relations with Tripoli have begun to flower. Mr Philip Yeo, Chairman of SPRING Singapore, was invited to be an international advisor to the Libyan EDB, which, curiously, is called EDB. Senior Minister Goh will be making an official visit to Libya this year.

Mr Zainudin asked about the progress of the Middle East Institute. It has been established, chaired by Mr Lee Tzu Yang from Shell, and an international search for a director is being conducted. We have to recognise our own lack of knowledge about the history, culture and traditions of the Arab people, and the Middle East Institute will help us fill in our knowledge gaps.

As for people-to-people links, the Arab community in Singapore can help us re-establish our connections to that region. Last May, together with members of the Arab Association, I visited the Hadramaut in South Yemen where most of the Arabs in Southeast Asia came from originally. Dr Ahmad Magad who is Chairman of Parliament's Middle East Group and himself a Hadrami was in my delegation. The Hadramis are a remarkable people who make significant contributions to local communities wherever they settle. When Raffles governed Java from 1811 to 1815 during the Napoleonic War, he saw that in all the main towns of the East Indies, there were vibrant Hadrami trading communities. Understanding the role they played in the economy, one of the first actions he took after he founded Singapore in 1819 was to encourage Hadrami traders to settle here. He persuaded Syed Omar Aljunied from

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Palembang to relocate to Singapore (he was searching for "foreign talent") and it was Syed Omar who gave the name to the oldest mosque in Singapore and of course to my own GRC. My host in the Hadramaut, the Deputy Governor, is a great great great grandnephew of Syed Omar. During the lunch we had in Tarim, when many of our Arab friends were in sarongs , we had sambal belacan , I met close relatives of our Mufti and Habib Hassan. It was an Alkaff in Singapore who built the first road connecting the Hadramaut to the port of Mukalla, a road which is still used today. We have always been an important node in the international Arab network and will become one again in the 21st century, and Islamic banking will be only one aspect of it.

As pointed out by Ms Indranee Rajah, the issue of climate change will be on the global agenda for years to come. Following the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) meeting in Bali last December, the nations of the world are now involved in negotiations for a post-2012 agreement to curb the emission of greenhouse gases into the earth's atmosphere. It is an agreement which must bring in all the major emitters including the US, China and India. Singapore has strong interests in these negotiations.

If the forests burn around Singapore, we will suffocate. If the sea level rises too much, we will be submerged. As a vulnerable small island state, we support international action to slow down global warming. We will work with other countries in ASEAN to promote sustainable management of forest resources and marine areas. We strongly support the Heart of Borneo project.

We must also ensure that the international agreement takes into

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account our specific characteristics. As a sovereign city-state, we have to generate much of our own electricity which means, in our case, the burning of oil or natural gas. Other energy sources like wind, hydro, solar, geo-thermal and nuclear are either not available to us or not viable at this point in time and as a transportation hub, the many aircraft and ships which call here mean that we emit more carbon dioxide per capita than many other cities or countries. Instead of being penalised, we should receive credit because our role as an efficient hub in fact reduces total global emission. Like WTO, the control of emissions must take into account the different roles played by different economies and facilitate, not curb or distort, the efficient operation of markets. To ensure that our interests are safeguarded, we will work with countries which share characteristics similar to ours. We do not know how long it will take to negotiate a global agreement, which has to be a grand bargain. The UNFCCC hopes to conclude the agreement by the time of the Copenhagen meeting in December 2009, there being some urgency because the first commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol will run out at the end of 2012.

In a modest way, Singapore has been breaking new ground in creating a liveable city and a sustainable habitat. Many foreign delegations come here to study what we have done in keeping the city clean and green, in waste management, water recycling, traffic control, conservation of forests, wetlands and marine life, and so on. For human civilisation to endure, human communities from the bottom up have to become much more sensitised to environmental concerns and these concerns have got to be internalised in individuals. The problem cannot be solved by governments acting alone. Climate change is a huge challenge for the whole world in this century. In anticipation of all this, MFA and other government agencies are building up our

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knowledge and capabilities. Ambassador Chew Tai Soo has been recalled from retirement and appointed our Chief Negotiator. Prof. Jayakumar chairs an inter-ministerial committee to oversee all our efforts.

Sir, Singapore is entering an exciting new phase in our national development. The internal and external challenges we face are intimately connected. Without the world in Singapore, there is no Singapore. We are only able to uplift the lives of our people and to build a sparkling 21st century city if the external circumstances remain favourable. This means continuing peace in the region, riding on the historic transformation of Asia and having a strong network of friends in the world.

The Chairman: We have some time left. Any clarifications?

Ms Indranee Rajah: May I seek the following clarifications from the Minister? He mentioned that with respect to ASEAN, the way forward should be the approach for greater integration. He also mentioned, as an example, we follow the European Union where they had tribal nations that were locked in conflict. The difference though between the European Union and ASEAN is that, for Europe, a lot of unification took place under the Romans, the Pax Romana, followed then by a common religion, the Roman Catholic religion, which laid the foundation, if you like, for unification for closer integration. In ASEAN, where the countries have very different cultures, racial as well as religious backgrounds, the question is: is it possible, or does it look likely, that we will be able to achieve greater integration?

Mr George Yong-Boon Yeo: Sir, I thank Ms Indranee Rajah for her thoughtful comparison between ASEAN and the EU. She is absolutely right that Europe is built on a common value system which has its roots in Rome, Greece, and Judeo-

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Christianity. So they are able to achieve a European Court to which all national courts are in the end subordinate. We do not have that same common history, and in fact ASEAN is marked by its diversity. The fact that we have such an admixture of religions and political systems, and historical connections, indicate that the founding basis of ASEAN cannot be the same as that of Europe. But we do share points of similarities. We face common challenges together and it is these challenges which are impelling us to work more closely together. For the coming years, there is still much to learn from the European experience, especially of the early Europe. Many of us in ASEAN do not see us ever becoming like the Europe of today, but we can certainly become the Europe of the Common Market, the Europe of the Economic Community.

3.30 pm

Dr Ong Chit Chung: Sir, I wish to seek some clarifications from the Minister on Myanmar. Many of us feel that ASEAN has no teeth, but the Minister clearly thinks that ASEAN has a tongue. I would rather describe it as a tongue-in-cheek way of explaining how ASEAN deals with Myanmar. Because the Minister stated just now that nine other members of ASEAN issued a declaration on Myanmar at the last Summit. But what would the declaration do? Mr Ong Keng Yong, the distinguished former ASEAN Secretary-General, said that thousands of declarations had been issued by ASEAN. My question is: what concrete steps can ASEAN take to guide Myanmar on the right path?

Mr George Yong-Boon Yeo: PM Lee issued a statement last November in the presence of eight other ASEAN leaders. Two important points were made. One, that ASEAN would not be held back by Myanmar. Two, even though Myanmar did not want us to be involved in the process of national reconciliation, we

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stood ready to help them when they want our help. They are members of the family and we cannot deny that. They are a strange member of the family and since they want more space, we have to give them more space. But when they decide to rejoin the rest of us, we should welcome them. That is the position that we are taking. We do not have the leverage which China has, because China has big interests in Myanmar. China is doing more than what is obvious to observers. Without China's intervention, it is unlikely that Gambari will be going back to Myanmar in early March. Without China's good offices, whether the timeline would have been announced, I do not know. But China has leverage, and also India which has a long border with Myanmar and deep historical connections with Myanmar, not forgetting that Burma was once part of the British Raj with India, and the biggest province. Both have leverage. We have little leverage. Thailand, which is ASEAN's neighbour with Myanmar, in fact depends on Myanmar's gas. So we must be completely realistic about what we can do and what we cannot do. We do not have real leverage but we do enjoy a certain moral authority. The fact that despite all our criticisms, they (Myanmar) turned up to sign on the Charter showed that we do matter to them.

Ms Irene Ng Phek Hoong: Sir, I would like to ask about the Growth Triangle. The Minister mentioned that it is time to revive it. Can I ask the Minister how does he see the conditions have changed to make sure that this time it is a good try. From my understanding, previously, it had not taken off because the Indonesia-Malaysia leg is a weaker leg in the triangle. And for a long time, the parties had regarded each other as rivals rather than as partners. Can I ask the Minister whether he thinks that if the Growth Triangle is revived, it means that the three

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countries are in a better position to leverage on each other's strengths, and to have the attitude of going forward as partners? As the Minister mentioned, we now have links with other parts of the world; the Middle East is working with us, growing with us and open to Singapore. Can I ask the Minister whether he thinks that such an attitude prevails in this region? And, if not, how can we help the attitude be such that Singapore is seen as a partner and not a rival?

Another question is on the ASEAN Charter. The Minister said that after the ASEAN Charter is ratified, ASEAN is in a better position to hold Myanmar to account. Can I ask the Minister what he means by that? Does it mean still issuing strong statements and then standing helplessly by, as the statements are ignored? Or does it mean that there is something that ASEAN can do, a certain consensus that can be formed within the ASEAN members to perhaps take more punitive measures towards Myanmar? Is that door open?

Mr George Yong-Boon Yeo: Mr Chairman, Sir, as I have said earlier to Dr Ong Chit Chung, we are in no position to punish Myanmar, because we have little leverage. We have some trade, some investments - and we regret having those investments - so it is not as if we supply them oil or arms or provide aid. But what we do enjoy is moral authority. I do not think the Myanmar ministers when they attend ASEAN meetings relish being interrogated by the rest of us. So there is moral pressure, and that moral pressure, I believe, does have some effect.

But going back to the Growth Triangle, for the opening dinner of our recent retreat, I took the ASEAN Foreign Ministers for a boat ride. In fact, we had the opening session on board. I wanted the Ministers to be away, leaving officials on land, so that we could be more focused. And indeed, it created a very

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good atmosphere, and many issues were resolved. Before the sun set, we could see the many ships in the Singapore Straits, and I was standing and having a drink with Pak Hassan Wirajuda from Indonesia, pointing out where the Riau Islands were: Bintan, Bulan, some of the oil tanks, Karimun and so on, and Malaysia. And it dawned upon us, how close we are. Over the centuries, these have always been part of one region. So if you look at the genealogical records of, say, the Johor Sultanate, they are linked to Riau, Lingga, Siak, Rokan and Indragiri, the waterways were the highways of the past. There is a very natural, organic basis for the Growth Triangle. Yes, for the time being, there are two legs which are stronger, but eventually the third leg will also become stronger, and I believe it is the wish of both Malaysia and Indonesia to strengthen the third leg, and it is in our interest to help them do so. When I met advisor to President SBY, Dr Syahrir, a few weeks ago, he mooted revitalising the Growth Triangle to me and I said we will support it and that if President SBY were to propose it to PM Lee, I am quite sure that PM Lee would also agree to the revival of the Growth Triangle. I believe PM Abdullah Badawi would take the same position.

Ms Indranee Rajah: Sir, speaking about our relations with India, the Minister mentioned a joint ministerial committee. May I ask what would be the ambit of the joint ministerial committee, what it intends to do and what it hopes to achieve?

Mr George Yong-Boon Yeo: No problems because there are very few problems to solve, but to survey the overall landscape together and to see whether there are new opportunities that we can exploit, new areas that we can work together on. So we do not see a bilateral exchange with a fixed agenda but we see two ministers meeting regularly to exchange notes, to compare perceptions

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of regional and international issues and to explore new ways of working together.

Ms Irene Ng Phek Hoong: Sir, I would like to ask about ASEAN integration because the Minister has not addressed my point about how it benefits the ordinary man-in-the-street. In Singapore, the EU Commissioner has even had a roadshow in schools to explain how EU benefits the Europeans and the world at large. I wonder whether we have done enough in ASEAN to educate Singaporeans and the people in the region how ASEAN integration is to their benefit. Because when I go around the region and talk to some MPs, the fear is that ASEAN integration may mean more jobs lost, less space to grow, when, in fact, it is the converse. I wonder whether the Minister has any plans to reach out to the public in a greater way to explain the benefits of ASEAN.

Mr George Yong-Boon Yeo: I apologise to Ms Irene Ng for not answering her question specifically earlier on. In fact, many things are being done by different ministries to build ASEAN into our common agenda. NGOs, think tanks, schools, and universities are all pursuing parallel efforts. The sense of ASEAN citizenship will take time to develop, what we want is little by little every year, a growing feeling that we are Southeast Asians. Last year, I had occasion to sit next to the Permanent Secretary of the British FCO. He was quite frank when he told me that even though he was actively involved in building Europe, he felt less European than his son; and that is what we should try to achieve - that our children will feel more, a greater sense of being ASEAN citizens than we feel. Up to now, it is more an elite construction, top-down; but we must increasingly grow it from the bottom-up. And as we confront problems together, sometimes opportunities arise in strange ways.

When the Israelis invaded southern Lebanon, a few Singaporeans were

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stranded in Beirut. At that time, southern Beirut was being heavily bombed, so we scrambled to evacuate them, got hold of the Americans, the Europeans and others. Later on, when ASEAN Ministers met, we compared notes, because all of us had citizens who were stranded in Beirut. Indonesia and Philippines had large numbers. So we said, "Why don't we have a system to help each other? In the event that a country has no consular facility in that country, you can always go to another ASEAN Mission." Following that discussion, in fact, we crafted an agreement, and today that facility is open to all citizens of ASEAN. So if you are a Singaporean and you are in a tight spot in a country where there is no Singapore consulate, go to the nearest ASEAN consulate and they will help you. I cannot guarantee the quality of service, but it is an agreement and if the service is not very good, then let me know and I will raise it again and bit by bit, we can become better as a group. But it is with opportunities like this that the sense of collective interest would grow.

Mr Michael Palmer: Sir, I thank the Minister for his answers and clarifications. I just have one issue in relation to Dr Ong's point about the Charter having teeth. I was just wondering whether the Minister had a sense from other Foreign Ministers that if a member country of ASEAN came to a point where they did not recognise or did not comply with the obligations under the Charter, would ASEAN go to the extent of either suspending or expelling a country?

Mr George Yong-Boon Yeo: Mr Chairman, Sir, we do not talk about such a possibility openly, but I am quite sure that Ministers and officials do consider this possibility in their own internal considerations. But let us push that hypothetical possibility, say, we expel

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Myanmar from ASEAN, rid ourselves of a problem. What happens? Myanmar is the buffer state between China and India. China has vast interests in Myanmar; India has vast interests in Myanmar. If it is not a member of ASEAN, both sides will have to create options for themselves in that country. And if there is internal discord, in self-defence, each will have to interfere to protect its own self-interests. So if China and India are dragged in, I think the Americans, the Japanese and the others will also be alarmed. In the end, Myanmar can become an arena for big power conflicts. At that point in time, our own interests will be dragged in too. So it would be better that we pinch our noses, and bear with the problem, and keep Myanmar within the ASEAN stable, than to come to the conclusion that jumping out from the frying pan will land us in a cooler situation.

The Chairman: Any more questions? We still have time. If there is none, Ms Indranee, would you like to withdraw the amendment?

Ms Indranee Rajah: Sir, may I thank the Minister for his comprehensive and patient replies. In the light of his replies, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $345,743,600 for Head N ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $62,320,000 for Head N ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

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