APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Head D 46-(Continued)

The Chairman: We are on Head D 46.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck -

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13, Singapore Polytechnic, on page 379 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, I wish to withdraw this motion and speak under the general Head.

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $17,020,140 for Head D 46 stand part of the Schedule."

The Chairman: There are now 25 minutes left.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, when we were informed that the Polytechnic was going to cost at least three times as much as budgeted for, in the first instance, a great deal of agitation was shown by every Member of this Assembly and the public of Singapore. Since then, we have been told that most of the cost is due to the expansion or to the more ambitious planning and not so much due to the cost of the building itself. All the same, I think that we have to go into detail and see that this vast expenditure of nearly $10 miIlion should be carefully used.

The biggest item of the Polytechnic is the six-storey teaching block which will cost round about $3 million, working out at about $20 a square foot. The Minister for Communications and Works has given us an indication of the cost of round about $13 a square foot for the three-storey primary schools. I think personally that the cost of this Polytechnic for the six-storey building can be brought more or less in line with the cost of these primary schools. We know very well that the main cost of the building is the finishing. It can cost as much as the structure itself. I do not propose that any alteration should be made to this structure because I understand that the job is ready for tender and part of it is already being built but I do submit that we and the Estimates Committee of which I am a Member should go into great detail and see what cost we can cut down in the ornaments of this building.

Another item which attracted our attention was the very, very big provision for the architect's fee. If the job were competed as visualised now costing $8 million for the buildings alone, we would have to pay the architect $800,000. This I submit, Sir, is a stupendous amount. In the Budget today, the programme is cut down and we are asked to budget for $5� million for which we will have to pay the architect just over half a million dollars. When we went into the question of why such a big fee has to be paid, we found that under the Architects Ordinance, there is provision whereby the flat fee of 7� per cent was to be charged and the architects' stand is that they are bound by that scale of fees and they cannot give us any reduction. This scale of fees was approved by this Assembly only last June when I was away but Members of this Assembly have told me that had they realised that this amounted to 7� per cent plus 2� per cent for quantity survey, making it ten per cent in all and had they been informed of this enormous sum of half a million dollars, they would not have agreed to this scale of fees. In fact, so many of them are so agitated that there is a definite move to repeal section 4 of the Architects Ordinance whereby the power that was given to the Architects' Board to fix the fee will be taken away from them. I think this is rather a hasty move. I have consulted many architects and I am told that the position of architects is quite different from that of other people. They are more or less like the lawyers in that, if there is any defect in the building or should the building fall down, they have to make good. They have to carry that responsibility simply because the City Council and the Government do not have enough supervisors to watch the progress of a building. Therefore the responsibility is passed over to the architects for which it is quite reasonable that he should be sufficiently remunerated but at this scale, when $10 million of public money is involved and, in about two years, an architect can earn between half a million dollars to $800,000, then I think that all Members will agree with me - in fact, many of them are insisting - that this scale should be sent back to the Board of Architects with a request that it should be revised so that there is a reducing scale say: after the first half a million dollars or a million dollars, if you like, there should be a reducing scale and make this whole fee reasonable and acceptable to us. This revised scale -

The Chairman: Order. I take it that the hon. Member is still on the subject of the Singapore Polytechnic?

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Yes, Sir, because this is connected with the half a million dollars payable by us. The suggestion that I make is that the whole scale should be referred back to them and then it should come back for approval.

There is a similar scale of fees charged by the solicitors in Singapore for conveyancing and their scale runs from 4� per cent for the first thousand dollars to about half per cent for any amount over half a million dollars. I am not suggesting that the same amounts should apply.

2.40 p.m.

Inche Ahmad Bin Ibrahim: Mr Chairman, Sir, I very much regret that there is no contribution made under this Head or items to the Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka (which means the Institute of Malay Language and Literature). This body, Sir, is sponsored primarily by the Federation Government and is aimed at making the Malay language the truly national language of the country. I am sure, Sir, that this is in line with our aspirations for a united Malaya in future.

Sir, if I remember rightly, the Assistant Minister for Education was present at the opening of the Language and Literary Congress in Johore Bahru on the 18th of September, 1956, representing the Minister for Education. He said in his speech, Sir, "The Congress will be given every assistance from the Singapore Government to the learning and teaching of the Malay language," and yet, Sir, only the Federation Government is subsidising the Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka. What can be better proof of this Government's sincerity to the statement made by the Assistant Minister for Education than to join the Federation in subsidising this Institute? Certainly, Sir, $l25,000 spent on this Institute would have brought much greater result to a greater number of people than the $125,000 given to the Young Women's Christian Association.

2.42 p.m.

Mr Lim Cher Kheng (Changi): Mr Chairman, Sir, I rise to endorse the statement just made by the Member for Paya Lebar regarding the criticisms on the Polytechnic. I will also practise speech control, and I wish only to add that the Minister for Education should carefully consider this widely criticised project, and make sure that every cent allocated to it by the Education Board is well spent, because this is our hard-earned money and we are in very great need of it to implement our educational policy.

Sir, I wish to touch upon the subject of grants-in-aid. I am very happy indeed to see the size of the capital grant given to vernacular schools, especially the increase grant to help Chinese schools, but I wish the Government will not stop at doing only that. More money should be given to expand vernacular education in this country.

Lastly, I do not know whether I am correct or not, but I remember it was mentioned in the Governor's Address regarding the educational policy that the Government was looking forward to helping Nanyang University but I am surprised to find in these Development Estimates no indication of Government's intention to do so.

2.44 p.m.

Mr Wong Foo Nam (Pasir Panjang): Mr Chairman, Sir, before I say anything on this subject, I wish to make it clear that I realise how important the Polytechnic is to Singapore and that no expense should be spared in making this the best one possible but, at the same time, I cannot see the necessity for a luxurious building. As an architect, Sir, I am unable even to allow my imagination to stretch to whatever extent I may that the Government should ask for $5� million for the Polytechnic whereas the Nanyang University which has three Faculties, a library, hostels for about 600 students, a sewerage purification plant and about a couple of miles of road could be built for less than $3� million. Since the announcement of the revised cost, strong criticism has been made by Members of this House as well as the public and the Press of the high cost. In this respect, Sir, I am grateful to the Government for sending me a memorandum giving an explanation of how this cost is arrived at. I have gone through the memorandum thoroughly and I for one am not convinced with the explanation at all. For instance, $30 per square foot has been given as the estimate of the cost of a square foot of the Polytechnic whereas the hotel now being built by a Class A P.W.D. contractor in Orchard Road includes shops downstairs, a restaurant and 140 bed-rooms upstairs, each with a bath-room attached complete with all fittings, including piling which goes down to 70 feet and it only costs $12.50 a square foot. If piling is excluded, it will come down to $11 a square foot. Another instance is the Nanyang Girls' School which is also being built by another Class A P.W.D. contractor and which works out at less than $8 per square foot complete. Numerous instances could be quoted in comparison, if desired. Even allowing for foundation for heavy machinery and extra heights of rooms, I think that the $30 per square foot quoted is still fantastic.

I do agree with the Member for Paya Lebar that the question of architects' fees should be reconsidered. As an architect, Sir, I do welcome such protection but as a Member of this House who has to protect the public, I must ask the Government to have this vote amended at an early date.

Mr Marshall: Well said.

Mr Wong Foo Nam: Another point put up by the Government in the memorandum is that the Government could not do it cheaper than a private architect because they would have to engage quantity surveyors of whom they have none or, at least, none available yet. Are quantities really required for a building like the Polytechnic? Hundreds of millions of dollars worth of buildings have been constructed by the Singapore Improvement Trust and private architects in the past few years and none of them had quantities. No such practice is adopted in America. In fact, some years ago, the Singapore Improvement Trust put up two tenders for some flats on exactly the same plan and specification: one with quantities and the other without. The tender for the one with quantities came out eight per cent higher than the one without quantities. In cutting out quantities, the Government will not only save on the fees of the quantity surveyor but it will also save on the price of the tender because I know of many instances where contractors have had to wait for months to get paid as the quantity surveyor engaged by the Government was overwhelmed with work. If one has to wait so long for his money, one naturally increases his price.

The Government seems to have a tendency of spending lavishly on buildings, if left unchecked. They do not seem to realise the value of money at all. For instance, I know of a case where they put a $3 per square foot floor finish for some flats at Leonie Hill which are only meant for junior officers. I myself have designed houses for millionaires and luxurious flats and at no time has the floor finish cost exceeded $2 per square foot. Another instance is the recently completed Nurses Hostel. I remember distinctly that the Minister for Communications and Works said at its opening that the Government had brought down the cost from $6,000 per unit to $4,000 per unit. I think that the Minister concerned should be congratulated for his good work. If the Government could make a saving in this case, why did not the Government make it in previous cases?

From this, hon. Members can see that if Government takes the trouble to scrutinise the cost carefully, savings could be made. I therefore plead with Government to appoint a committee to go into the matter thoroughly thereby hoping that the cost might be reduced by one-third or more as the Nurses Hostel which opened lately.

2.52 p.m.

The Financial Secretary (Mr T. M. Hart): Sir, recently there has been a very great deal of uninformed criticism about the cost of the Polytechnic and I would like to take this opportunity of stating the facts clearly once and for all.

The Report issued by the Dobby Committee, the first Committee to go into the question of the Polytechnic, stated that the estimated capital cost of the Polytechnic would be $8 million. The Report did not, however, go into details as to how this figure was made up. When Mr Gibson came out to make an investigation into the question of establishing the Polytechnic, he did, in fact, make a rough estimate of cost and that is broken down as follows: Buildings $3.7 million; Furniture and Fittings for the Buildings $47 million; Heavy Equipment $1.01 million, making a total of $5,196,000. This figure was accepted by Government until such time as plans could be drawn and accurate estimates of cost made. Planning did proceed thereafter and a firm of private architects was employed on the recommendation of the Executive Council with the consent of the Finance Committee of the then Legislative Council. When their plans were completed, they were sent home to the Secretary of State's Board of Advisers on Technical Colleges. This Board immediately condemned the plans in so far as only seven acres of land were used and the area, having regard to the buildings which would be placed in it and the functions which they would have to serve, would be too congested. Subsequently, therefore, the architects were asked to re-draw their plans and they did so. The estimate of cost of the new plans is as follows: Site preparation will take $150,000. The workshop and navigation block, which Mr Gibson left out of his estimate, will total $986,000. The six-storey teaching block, which is the main part of the Polytechnic, will cost $956,000. The administrative block, library and lecture rooms above the administration building will cost $766,000. The architects' fees will come to $504,000; making a total of $5,362,884. In addition, it had been suggested that a gymnasium and students' union costing $253,000 and an auditorium and canteen costing $1,689,000, making a total of $1,942,000 should be undertaken. In addition also, heavy equipment for the Polytechnic including furniture and fittings is estimated now to cost $2,500,000.

When these estimates came to me in my capacity as Financial Secretary, I immediately asked the Director of Public Works to examine them with a tine tooth-comb to see that they were accurate in all respects. Then the Director of Works in answer to my request turned them over to the Chief Architect of the Government who examined them and found that they were in all respects reasonable minimum estimates of the cost of the amount of work which had to be done. At that stage, I held a meeting with all people connected with the Polytechnic, and it was decided, and subsequently confirmed by the Council of Ministers, that we would go ahead for the time being with work amounting to $5.5 million and, of course, with the purchase of equipment to the tune of $2,500,000, leaving the other work - gymnasium and students' union, auditorium and canteen - to be undertaken at some future date if money were available. It was made clear that no undertaking could be given to the Board of Trustees of the Polytechnic that this additional work would subsequently be undertaken. In the opinion of the Committee which sat on the matter in my office, this work was not regarded as essential to the successful operation of the Polytechnic.

Now, Sir, at the moment, Government's total commitment in respect of the Polytechnic is $5.5 million in respect of capital works and $2.5 million in respect of equipment, making a total of $8 million altogether. The other work on the gymnasium, students' union, auditorium and canteen will be left until very much later and will then depend upon whether funds are available.

There are two other items which I should mention: a request from the Board of Trustees of the Polytechnic for the provision of playing-fields which was estimated to cost $500,000 and the provision of $1 million for houses. Both of these requests have been turned down. It is hoped that accommodation for expatriate officers who will have to be employed by the Polytechnic will be found amongst existing Government quarters.

On the question of the cost of the building in terms of square feet which has been mentioned, I regret to say that I am not in a position to confirm or refute that statement. I do however know that in the case of the six-storey teaching block which is the largest item in the Polytechnic, the total cost of that building is $2.9 million and the cubic footage of that particular building is 1.4 million cubic feet.

The Chairman: Order. The time has expired.

Question put, and agreed to.

The sum of $17,020,140 for Head D 46 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 47-

The sum of $500,000 for Head D 47 ordered to stand part of the Schedule

Head D 48-

The sum of $25,000 for Head D 48 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 49-

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Mr Chairman, Sir, I move,

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 5, First District Hospital, on page 383 of the Estimates.

I do so, Sir, because I see that the estimated cost has now gone to $6� million instead of $3,200,000 as at first budgeted. I would like to know the policy of Government on this matter: Why is it necessary to double the cost of this particular hospital?

Question proposed.

3.01p.m.

Mr Braga: Mr Chairman, Sir, the first estimate of $3.2 million was based on a pure paper calculation of the cubic measurement of the schedule of accommodation for a 400-bed hospital without provision of residential accommodation. That estimate was also made without any knowledge of the site to be chosen. The new estimate of $6.5 million includes $2 million for quarters for residential staff, Medical Superintendent, sisters, nurses and servants. It also allows for the provision of 450 beds. Fifty additional maternity beds have been added, making a total of 100 because of the very evident pressure on Kandang Kerbau Hospital where accommodation has reached saturation point and where overcrowding constitutes now a real danger to the new-born. It was also made with knowledge of the site. I think that, at the last sitting here, in answer to the same hon. gentleman, I gave an account to the House of the cause of the delay on the final choice of the site. A multi-storeyed building is envisaged on the land which is to be acquired on East Coast Road, at the end of Tanah Merah Ketchil Road. A pavilion hospital of 450 beds is not an economic proposition, because, firstly, it would require 40 acres of flat land instead of 18 acres at present envisaged. It would not be cheaper to build because foundations, roofs, sewage pipes, water distribution, electric distribution, piping of steam and oxygen, and so forth, would be far more extensive than in a compact multi-storeyed building. Furthermore, recurrent costs would be higher because a larger supervisory and subordinate staff is required to make up for the time wasted in walking long distances between wards and departments.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Telephone.

3.04 p.m.

Mr John Ede: Mr Chairman, Sir, I regard what the hon. Minister said as completely unsatisfactory. The changes in Government's policy regarding this hospital require a great deal more explanation than we have so far been given.

Sir, hon. Members will remember that last year, we were informed that the original choice of a site for this hospital was at Katong somewhere near the Sea View Hotel and that it was being scrapped in favour of a site at the Kallang airport. Sir, last year, I spoke as follows on this very subject; if I may have your permission to quote, from what I said, column 1335 of our Hansard:

"...I can readily believe that most of the old airfield area is not suitable for heavy buildings because of piling problems on reclaimed land... Is the new district hospital then to cost more than it need because it is going to be built on an unsuitable site? Is a great deal of piling going to put up the cost per bed of this hospital? Is the Minister satisfied that this is not only the best site geographically but also the cheapest from the taxpayers' point of view? I hope that hon. Members opposite will not feel that these are destructive, sterile questions. What we want is to be convinced that the right decisions have been made in the public interests."

Sir, in reply to that, the Minister for Communications and Works came to the rescue of his colleague and stated:

"Perhaps I can help him out on some technical details about that one. The first non-technical detail, of course, is that the site there is already Government property. We have not got to pay very high prices for it. In that respect, of course, the site is eminently eligible because it is free. Secondly, it is eligible because it is very well situated from a demographic point of view because the population around is both heavy and poor and it is therefore a very suitable place for a hospital to be where the poor people can get into it easily."

Now, Sir, one year later, the choice of a new site is made in the Bedok area which is a less populous area and the cost is to be doubled. We are told that the estimate of $3,200,000 was done without knowledge of the site to be chosen and I submit, Sir, therefore, that the figures given last year were, in some respects, bogus.

The Chairman: Order. I cannot allow the word "bogus".

Mr John Ede: I withdraw that word, Sir, and I will use the word "inaccurate".

I would like also, if I may, to refer to column 1342 in the same debate in which the Minister said:

"...the sum of $3,200,000 is for a 450-bed hospital with all the equipment and conveniences."

Why this change of thought? Why this change of plan? Why the doubling of this estimate? It seems to me a monstrous waste of time and a monstrous waste of public money.

3.08 p.m.

Mr Braga: Mr Chairman, Sir, I thought that I gave a full explanation of that at the last sitting. I do not know whether the Member for Tanglin was paying sufficient attention.

The Kallang site was originally chosen because it was an ideal spot; and as the Minister for Communications and Works pointed out, it was in a thickly populated area. When we got down to basic facts, we found that piling there would be considerably more expensive than was originally anticipated. Taking this into consideration we still felt that it would be an ideal spot, but finally we discovered that it was right in the air funnel, that is to say, it would be in the direct line of all planes landing and taking off from Singapore, a line from the new airport to St. John's Island.

Mr John Ede: Why was that not discovered before?

Mr Braga: That is a thing which I cannot answer the Member for Tanglin.

Mr John Ede: Who can?

Mr Braga: When it was discovered that this was right in the air funnel, I placed the question before our Medical Advisory Council to seek their advice whether that would in any way affect the health of the patients in the hospital. The majority opinion of the Medical Advisory Council was that it would, much to my disappointment. Then we sought other sites. I think I also informed the House that I had also in view a site near the Sea View Hotel and that when we went into the question, it was ascertained the land belonged to a building society and that plans for building purposes were completed. Finally, we inspected two sites in the Bedok area and chose the one which is immediately behind the Fisheries Research Station which we now find to be an ideal site. Incidentally, I might mention that the outdoor patients clinic at the old site of the Malayan Airways canteen is now under construction or undergoing additions and alterations. When our new hospital is ready, anybody requiring hospitalisation will be sent there.

Question put.

Mr John Ede: Division, Sir.

The Chairman: Clear the lobbies.

The House divided: Ayes, 6; Noes 21; Abstention, 1. Ayes Noes Ede, John. Abdul Hamid Bin Goh Tong Liang. Haji Jumat. Jumabhoy, R. Ahmad Bin Ibrahim. Lim Choon Mong. Braga, A. J. Lim Koon Teck. Butterfield, C. H. Tan, William. Chew Swee Kee. Gob Chew Chua. Noes Goode, W. A. C. Hart, T. M. Jumabhoy, J.M. Lim Cher Kheng. Lim, R. C. H. Lim Yew Hock. Mak Pak Shee. Marshall, D. S. Mohd. Sidik Bin Haji Abdul Hamid. Nair, M. P. D. Seah Peng Chuan. Sutherland, G. A. P. Tan Theng Chiang Thomas, Francis. Wong Foo Nam. Abstention Lee Choon Eng. Absent Lazarous, A. R. Lee Kuan Yew. Lim Ching Siong. Ong Piah Teng.

Question on the amendment accordingly negatived.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck -

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13 (3) , General Hospital - Ancillary Services, on page 383 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13 (5) , General Hospital, Garage for Ambulance and Drivers' Rest Room, on page 383 of the Estimates

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14 (2) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital - Flats for twelve Medical Officers, on page 383 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14 (3) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital - Ancillary Services, on page 383 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14 (4) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital - Additions and Alterations to Existing Hospital Buildings, on page 383 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 15 (4) , Tan Tock Seng Hospital - Students Nurses Hostel and Training School, on page 384 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 15 (5) , Tan Tock Seng Hospital - Quarters for forty Sisters, on page 384 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 16 (6) , Woodbridge Hospital and Trafalgar Home, Hospital Assistants' Quarters, on page 385 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, in view of the short time allocated for this Head and the many amendments that are tabled by me, may I have your guidance as to whether it will be proper for me to withdraw them and just speak on the Head itself?

The Chairman: I cannot really guide the hon. Member until I know what he is going to say. Is he suggesting economies?

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Yes.

The Chairman: In that case, perhaps it would be proper for him to withdraw his amendments and just draw the attention of hon. Members to these items and then bring the matters up for discussion in the Estimates Committee.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Yes.

The Chairman: Do I take it then that the hon. Member withdraws all his amendments?

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Yes, and I would like to give notice to the Minister concerned that I do not wish to mention about the garage because I understand that it is for 30 cars.

The Chairman: The hon. Member should then wait until the main Question is proposed.

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $10,546,490 for Head D 49 stand part of the Schedule."

3.17 p.m.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Mr Chairman, Sir, I am only taking up this matter on the question of the cost mainly, in this case, of the accommodation for housemen and sisters. You will notice here that for all the quarters, the estimate for each of which I shall deal with, there is already provided a sum of $1,400,000 for Ancillary Services which means that when we come to calculate the cost of each quarter, we shall have to take out of our consideration the roads, the water supply, the electric supply and the sanitation.

The first point that I am dealing with is sub-head 13 (4) at page 383 of the Development Estimates and there is $1,250,000 asked for accommodation for 78 sisters which works out at about $16,000 per flat. That, I submit, Sir, is still a high figure and I think that $12,000 per flat for a sister would be suitable accommodation because I know for a fact that many private architects are building very comfortable flats with two bed-rooms, a sitting-room, and a dining-room complete around $12,000 each.

The next sub-head that I would like to speak on is 14 (2) at page 383 of the Development Estimates. There we have $450,000 asked for to provide accommodation for 12 medical officers. This is an increase over last year's estimate of 50 per cent and it works out at $37,000 per flat. Now I know that we have paid sums like this for accommodating previous officers and professors in the University but I think we have come to a time when we must be more realistic and cut down the cost of accommodation for our officers. Every one of us, big or small, is asked to contribute towards income tax and our taxes are rising by leaps and bounds. I am quite sure that when these officers, who will in the future occupy these flats, are asked to give their opinion, they will agree with us in that they are prepared to live in a less luxurious manner.

The next sub-head that I wish to touch on is 14 (4) , Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital. There we have "Additions and Alterations to existing Hospital Buildings" and the sum is $2 million. It seems to be a lot of money for alterations alone!

Another sub-head that I wish to comment on is 15 (4) on page 384 of the Development Estimates, Students Nurses Hostel and Training School. There, the estimated cost of $1,200,000 asked for last year is now revised at $2 million. Why the increase?

Again, I would like to draw the attention of this House to sub-head 15 (5) . Here, the amount asked for is $750,000 for Quarters for 40 Sisters which works out at nearly $20,000 a flat. That, again, I submit, Sir, is a standard of living which we cannot afford today.

3.23 p.m.

Mr Braga: Mr Chairman, Sir, on the question of quarters for housemen, it was a statutory provision that all medical, graduates must have a first-year residential housemanship before registration and the working party of the medical building has agreed on the standard scale of accommodation for the medical staff who may be required to live in quarters within the hospital compound. The provisional estimate of the cost per unit of accommodation has been worked out as follows: Houseman, 310 square feet which works out at $13,000 cost per quarter for a normal site, including furniture.

I would like to inform hon. Members of the House that all buildings on the Kandang Kerbau site require piling. On the flats for medical officers, the original estimate of $300,000 was for eight medical officers. Now this has been increased to accommodation for twelve medical officers. The amount of $36,000 from that sum will be required for piling and that reduces it to about $34,000 per flat.

On the question of additions and alterations to the buildings, sub-head 14 (4) , page 383 of the Development Estimates, it is already evident that the estimate of $2 million for the work needed at the Kandang Kerbau Hospital will be sufficient only to cover the cost of the gynaecological unit. Essential alterations to this teaching hospital will be needed in future years and new provision will have to be made when the time comes. I would like you to appreciate that the Kandang Kerbau Hospital is a teaching hospital and as such has to keep up with certain standards.

On sub-head 15 (4), Student Nurses Hostel and Training School, this will be the main centre for the training of assistant nurses and it must be noted that the $2 million is only a provisional estimate.

On sub-head 15 (5), Quarters for forty Sisters, it is doubtful whether this project will be proceeded with. It is expected that sufficient accommodation for unmarried sisters may be available at the new general hospital building.

I think I have covered the question of costs on sub-head 14 (3), Ancillary Ser- vices. The explanation is given on page 436 of the Estimates which reads:

"Provision has been made for roads, water, electricity supplies and sewerage for new buildings."

Provision for ancillary services is only made under a separate item in the case of a large project where services are shared between the various buildings included in the project. It is not possible exactly to apportion the cost of joint services between the various buildings being supplied.

If I have not covered all of the points raised, I would like my attention drawn at this stage because I propose going on to something else with your permission, Mr Chairman, as I feel that it is my duty to inform hon. Members of the House something about the chronic hospital which is to be built -

The Chairman: Order. I think the Hon. Minister is departing from the present debate. Perhaps he could consider making a ministerial statement at an appropriate time. There has not been a debate on that particular subject; perhaps he will consider that point.

Mr Braga: Thank you, Mr Chairman, but the position is that I have to point out to the House that on the question of costing, there might be an amendment to the figures. It is going to be much higher than it was originally. May I have your permission, Sir?

The Chairman: Certainly.

Mr Braga: I would like to draw the attention of hon. Members to sub-head 9, page 383, of the Development Estimates. The revised estimated cost is shown at $2.9 million and the previous estimated cost was $1.5 million. I have to explain that the estimate of $1.5 million was made without knowledge of the exact size and on a "diagrammatic line drawing" of the cheapest possible envisaged pavilion-type hospital of 200 beds. Since then, available Crown land at Thomson Road was surveyed and we decided that a pavilion-type hospital meant an extravagant use of land. It was therefore decided to use plans already drawn and available for a multi-storeyed building. The use of existing plans would save 12 to 18 months' delay and enable work to start early in 1957 and when estimating the $2.9 million, it was only to provide a hospital of 180 beds. Now in the process of detailed planning, it was found that it would be cheaper in the long run to build a 396-bed hospital on a single site rather than to build one 180-bed hospital now at a cost of $2.9 million and another at a later date at the same cost. The estimate therefore for a 396-bed hospital using existing plans is $4.65 million. In other words, we can provide 396 beds in one hospital for $1.5 million less than we can build two 180-bed hospitals. Again studying the necessity for relieving the General Hospital of beds blocked by chronic or incurable patients, we find that approximately 300 beds are constantly blocked there so that the figure of 396 beds for the chronic sick is not excessive. The Government now therefore proposes to go forward with the 396-bed project as an economic figure in the long run so that the figure should now read $4,650,000 instead of $2,900,000. Doubling the size of the project is now much less than double the cost.

3.30 p.m.

Mr Lim Cher Kheng: Mr Chairman, with your permission, I would like to ask the Minister for Health whether he is aware of the great service rendered to the poor, especially in the rural areas, by the travelling dispensary unit? I have looked through the Development Estimates and it is surprising that this unit has not had any chance to expand its activities. I have approached the Ministry of Health and have asked them to increase the visits of the travelling dispensary to the poor living in the congested kampongs and in the rural areas and to send, if possible, a doctor along with this travelling dispensary. I am sure we are aware that the really poor sick patients have not got the bus fare or the means to enable them to go to the hospitals and the only help which they can get is from the travelling dispensary. Therefore I would like the Minister for Health to inform us whether or not it is still his intention to develop such facilities.

Mr Braga: Mr Chairman, Sir, for the information of the Member for Changi, there are six travelling dispensaries and three mobile dental clinics with trailers and generators and these visit rural areas regularly with a medical officer in attendance. If the hon. Member can point out any particular rural area which he complains is not being properly attended to, I will be glad to take the matter in hand.

Mr Francis Thomas: I would like to say a word, Mr Chairman, about the suggestion that we might call on our officers to accept smaller quarters. There is this factor to bear in mind. We have heard many statements in here about the very heavy burden of dependants which Asians have to carry in this country and which expatriates do not have to carry. This was, of course, thought of by the Public Works Department quite a long time ago because it is in fact true that the normal expatriate does send his children back to England. He has young children around and he does not have boys of 15, 16, 17, and 20 years old having to live in the same house with him but they are at home in England attending a school or a university. Here if a doctor has children and they are going to live with him, they will remain in the house with him until they themselves set up families and, no doubt, he will go and live with them when he retires. But there is a genuine aspect, to my mind, that if you leave the quarters as they are, you will, in fact, be providing less accommodation because there will be more people having to live in them, if the Asian custom is followed. That is one point. To give a further deduction would be a double deduction. You see the point and I do not wish to elaborate on it further. It is a simple arithmetical point.

I would also point out that the figures for quarters do include furniture and that must not be overlooked when you are taking into account the overall costs. I would just like to refer to some notes I got from Nigeria which is not necessarily a wholly comparable territory where one's general standard is rather low but there, in the new block for sisters, each sister gets a flatlet, that is to say, living space, bed-room, kitchenette and bath-room. In other words, she has a little self-contained flat of her own. That is not yet necessary in Singapore but if we are going to get people into the nursing service and the other services in the Government, then they have got to be given positions which are attractive to them.

I will just run through as far as I can see the whole of the departments in my Ministry. There was a motion to cut out the grant for the senior quantity surveyor, a most ill-judged motion. We had to put it in because it was absolutely necessary to put that senior quantity surveyor in and it should be a career which would attract people into the service. You had a vacancy for a year; it was advertised locally and there was no applicant. It was also advertised overseas and there was no applicant. Luckily, we got two young men in the pipe line coming out for training shortly: one will be in the next year, I hope, and we shall not increase our vacancies. But if we are going to get young men or young women to come into the service and to stay in, you have to give them attractive conditions which, in Singapore, is likely to mean giving them quarters because it is very hard to get proper housing in Singapore.

I just make these points because I do not think that the Government should be accused of undue lavishness in the treatment of its officers. They do a very good job of work and if you are going to retain them, you must recognise their qualities and their services by giving them proper conditions to live under.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Mr Chairman, Sir, I just want to ask the Minister whether the 60 housemen to be provided for are people who are quite old and have many children? I believe that the housemen are probably people who have just graduated and they might be single or married but, I do not think that they can produce children at the rate as alleged by the Minister. Again on the matter of sisters and matrons, I think they are usually confined to single ones and if they are married, probably the husbands will have to provide the quarters. Facts like these should be presented to the public.

Mr Francis Thomas: If I can just enlighten the hon. Member, I think he misunderstood me. I am not suggesting that the houseman is going to breed a family in the course of the two years that he has to perform in a hospital. I am saying the general principle is that you have to provide adequate quarters -

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Family Planning Association!

Mr Francis Thomas: The fact that the houseman may be practising or teaching family planning is not really the point. The point is that if you are providing for married couples with children, you must provide them with adequate quarters. For a houseman, I think the figure of 310 square feet quoted earlier today - I cannot recollect for certain - is not an excessive allowance for a qualified professional man living as a bachelor.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Mr Chairman, Sir, I am very glad that the Minister for Communications and Works confirmed that a houseman only gets 310 square feet. That will mean one sitting-room, one bed-room and a lavatory. Now at 310 square feet for a flat of $13,000, the cost for that flat is $40 a square foot which is really a fantastic costing. No doubt, it includes furniture but I do not think that the cost of furniture for a houseman's flat would come to more than $3,000. The cost for a flat in a residential area is $12 a square foot. I think it comes to about that much for a fairly luxurious flat at Orchard Road opposite the Prince's being built on a burial ground and I frankly can not see why we cannot come down to that standard.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: He has not done his homework.

The Chairman: Order. I think that is a matter which can be looked into in detail by the Estimates Committee.

Question put, and agreed to.

The sum of $10,546,490 for Head D 49 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 51-

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck -

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, Combined Immigration Depot and Customs Offices, on page 386 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, I withdraw this motion and would like to speak on the Head itself.

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $1,000 for Head D 51 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, I am seeking information as to the necessity for spending $1,200,000 for the Combined Immigration Depot and Customs Offices. It seems that we are in the habit of running into millions of dollars for our offices and I would like to have an idea of what type of offices these are.

Mr Lim Yew Hock: Mr Chairman, Sir, I will send the information asked for by the hon. Member in a letter to him.

Question put, and agreed to.

The sum of $1,000 for Head D 51 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 53-

3.41 p.m.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Mr Chairman, Sir, I move,

To reduce by $130,000 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, Community Centres, on page 387 of the Estimates.

Sir, whilst I am not totally against the building of community centres, I find that, invariably, community centres have been built in such a manner that they earn no more than the name "community centres". My idea of a community centre is that it should be readily available to the people and it should serve a great multiplicity of functions to the community living around it. The present day type of community centre, Sir, serves a somewhat unorganised population, and probably only girls' or boys' clubs with perhaps one or two meetings rarely of other organisations far in between.

Now let us look at the way in which the community of Singapore carry on with their work. I will just point out one instance. In one locality, invariably, you will find that there are people who are not of the Christian faith but who like to run public wayangs. I find that one section of the community will go around and build a stage, run the wayang for about two days for the public and then pull down the stage and after two days, another party will stage another wayang there. In one particular locality, you might have seven repeat performances in a month and for each performance, it incurs an expenditure of nearly $1,000. So if community centres are going to serve the public, these points must be taken into consideration.

Sir, community centres obviously must help the public in all sorts of functions. Probably these centres have not been publicised or no attempt has been made in that direction. Very few people know where community centres are and probably they do not know how to apply for the use of them so that even in the locality where there are community centres, we find that many people still hold functions in their houses which are too small for the occasion. So all in all, I find that the community centres which have been built have not been serving the public as they should. They have only been white elephants, and if they are going to remain as white elephants, we should expend no more money on them. One reason for that is this. When a community centre is to be built, the people around the area are not consulted or if they are consulted, the opinion given must have been the opinion of a few who do not know much about the area. A community centre built right behind a row of shophouses half a mile from a village is no attraction to the people but it should be central to that locality, just like the Victoria Memorial Hall. From my experience of community centres, I think they are a waste of public funds unless steps are taken to rectify all that I have said here.

Question proposed.

3.45 p.m.

Mr Lim Yew Hock: Mr Chairman, Sir, the Member for Serangoon keeps on attacking community centres to make one feel as if he has a great hatred for community centres or that some community centres must have hurt him quite deeply.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Not at all. Let him prove it.

Mr Lim Yew Hock: Sir, the sum of $130,000 asked for in the Estimates is required to complete a community centre which was started this year at Seah Im Road. The amount of $110,000 is required to complete this work and the $20,000 which will be left over out of the $130,000 is meant for another community centre, the site of which has not yet been finalised.

The Member for Serangoon said that the community centres are white elephants. I would like to tell him, Sir, that he is not saying the right thing -

Mr Lim Choon Mong: I know it myself.

Mr Lim Yew Hock: - because as far as we know in the Social Welfare Department, and from reports I have received, community centres are doing very good work and are necessary to build up a community spirit in the areas concerned.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: On paper.

Mr Lim Yew Hock: He said that the community centres have not served the public well. I would ask the community living near any community centre to come in and work together and make use of the community centre instead of keeping themselves away.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Sir, I believe that if there are facilities offered, people will make use of them. If there are facilities and there is an offer for you to come and make use of them but nobody comes forward to make use of them, I ask the Government where the fault lies?

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The sum of $722,000 for Head D 53 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 55-

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Choon Mong -

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (1) , Singapore Airport - Permanent Terminal Building, on page 388 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Choon Mong: Sir, I do not intend to move my amendment.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck -

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1 (1) , Singapore Airport - Permanent Terminal Building, on page 388 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, this is a point on which we want further information. That is all.

The Chairman: Shall I propose the Question on the Main Head?

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Yes.

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $3,450,000 for Head D 55 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, we see here according to the Estimates, the revised cost for the Permanent Terminal Building will be $8 million. We want information, Sir, on what this sum is to be expended, on the type of buildings that are planned and whether it includes a lot of luxurious items like a cinema - I heard something like a cinema but I am not sure.

3.51 p.m.

Mr Francis Thomas: I do agree, Mr Chairman, Sir, that it is not much use in this Assembly going into too much detail on costs and arguing to and fro the contentions. The best thing is to leave it to the Estimates Committee. If they can show where they can make savings, I shall personally be delighted and I think that we should all agree that where savings can be made, they should be made. I have brought along drawings. I am afraid that they are so stiff that it is no use tabling them. Perhaps Members would like to see them in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association room.

The general points that I would like to make about the Terminal Building are - I think I made them already in an earlier part of the debate; if I have not, I intend to, Sir - that we do need to have in Singapore, if we are to maintain our present position as a main link in the international network of travel, a really attractive and satisfactory Terminal Building. We are not in a position where people are compelled to come to us. There are alternative airports to which they can fly if the other ones are more attractive, more efficient and more convenient. We have a very good position for an airport and, other things being equal, we shall probably get the trade but we have competitors in the business and it is up to us to be competitive in every way and one aspect is that if you are going to attract the type of people who travel by air, you have got to give them the sort of surroundings that they are used to. If you put them into a barn and herd them along on to a wooden bench and give them a dusty cup of coffee with coffee stains all around the edge of the cup, they will say, "Singapore is a dirty place and we do not want to come here again." There can be quite considerable side-effects because in the end they will not come here and you will not get investments -

The Chairman: Order. The time has expired.

Question put, and agreed to.

The sum of $3,450,000 for Head D 55 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 56-

The sum of $28,000 for Head D 56 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 57-

The sum of $731,030 for Head D 57 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 58-

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck -

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 1, New P.W.D. Workshops, on page 391 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 2, Transfer of Airport Quarry Plant to Bukit Timah Quarry, on page 391 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, I wish to withdraw my two amendments.

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $960,000 for Head D 58 stand part of the Schedule."

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, I see under Head D 58 that $1� million is asked for New P.W.D. Workshops. There is also an item for $150,000 required for Transfer of Airport Quarry Plant to Bukit Timah Quarry. The sum of $150,000 seems to be quite a lot of money. I would like to know what is intended to be carried out and what type of workshops are going to be built which require $1� million?

3.56 p.m.

Mr Francis Thomas: Sir, it is rather a lump sum contract. The position about the workshops is, first of all, the present site is intolerably over-crowded and is bounded by the Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital, the Post Office, Farrer Park and the Bukit Timah Canal expansion. The degree of over-crowding is shocking and we are also continually expanding the service with the expanding use of mechanism, especially heavy earth-moving equipment, and the site on which the present workshop stands is required for the expansion of Kandang Kerbau Hospital. Therefore, it is desirable that the workshop should be moved to a new site and a very suitable and an appropriate site is available at Kallang where part of the old hangar can form the basis of the workshop and where it will be possible to work the Marine sub-branch in with the rest of the senior mechanical engineer's works, so that you can take a launch on to the slipway, put a mobile crane to work and take the engine out for repairs and thus streamline the work a bit.

The cost of the move includes the equipment of the new workshops which will include machine tools which are a costly item. I cannot tell you the precise nature of the machine tools but I expect that hon. Members can visualise them for themselves. I think it is worth mentioning that another aspect of the advantage of the move is that it will enable the Stores Branch of the Public Works Department to do a bit of necessary expansion. There again, there is considerable over-crowding on this small site and it is also inconvenient.

The quarry plant at Pulau Ubin was established as part of the overall project of building Singapore Airport -

The Chairman: Order. The time has expired.

Question put, and agreed to.

The sum of $960,000 for Head D 58 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 60-

The sum of $1,654,970 for Head D 60 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 61-

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Lim Koon Teck -

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 4, Canteens at Government Offices, on page 396 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 13, Modernisation of Division IV Quarters - First Programme, on page 396 of the Estimates.

To reduce by $10 the sum to be allotted in respect of sub-head 14, New Government Offices, on page 396 of the Estimates.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, I withdraw these amendments and would like to speak on the main Head.

Question proposed,

"That the sum of $2,845,310 for Head D 61 stand part of the Schedule."

3.59 p.m.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, at page 396 of the Development Estimates, there is an item of $100,000 for Canteens at Government Offices. I have no objection to a good canteen being provided for Government servants but $100,000, to my mind, does conjure some very luxurious rooms which are air-conditioned and I would like information on that point.

The other item is No. 13 for which we are asked to spend $1 million on Modernisation of Division IV Quarters - First Programme. The explanation given on page 440 is not very helpful. It only reads:

"Most Division IV quarters constructed pre-war have inadequate latrine, bathing and kitchen facilities. These quarters require Improvement by the construction of kitchens and bathrooms."

It does not give the number of quarters to be attended to and I think that we should have some information as to how that money is going to be spent.

On the last item, we come to $5 million for the New Government Offices. I think that this side of the House will want to know whether Government intends to spend this $5 million and the style of building that we are going to get; whether we are going to get something horrible like the Post Office building or something really useful for the future.

4.01 p.m.

Mr Goode: Sir, I cannot help feeling that the Member for Paya Lebar has forgotten the socialist side of his Party since two of the items which he questioned in a somewhat critical way are to facilitate very much the more humble members of the Government service.

As regards the canteens, I can assure him that the $100,000 is not intended to put up some chromium-plated air-conditioned building for a limited number of people. We already have in a number of different Government offices over a dozen canteens which are running; some of them are running very much in spite of being sited in the most unsuitable corners. For example, one is in a basement in Fullerton Building and the conditions there are such that the health authorities are likely to condemn it. We have a number of canteens running and we have at least half a dozen new ones projected. This $100,000 will be spent on a great number of comparatively small items: $1,000 for tiling and introducing hygienic conditions in existing canteens; in another instance, a considerably larger sum of $5,000 or $8,000, in order to construct a canteen in some available space in an existing office. I can assure the hon. Member that these canteens will serve a most useful purpose. They are an amenity to people working in Government offices; they help to reduce the demand for hawkers; they help to keep people off the streets during the crowded lunch-time hours and they enable people to get a decent meal at a cheap price and get the maximum of rest in their lunch hour.

As for the next item to which he referred, the Modernisation of Division IV Quarters, I am, of course, a colonial official but, Sir, I have to admit that some of these Division IV quarters which we inherit from the colonial regime are such as we certainly cannot be proud of today, and it is in order to try and bring a large number of those quarters up to a standard more in conformity with present-day conditions, to give them proper latrines and kitchens, that this money is required. It is a large vote and there is a large number of quarters to be modernised, one after another. If the hon. Member really wants to have a full list of all the various quarters which are going to be tackled and how much is going to be spent on each, I dare say that it could be got out but it would take quite a considerable time and I really doubt whether it would profit him or this House to have it. If he wishes it, he can put a Question down and I will, of course, do my best to get the figures for him.

As regards the last item in which he raised a question on the New Government Offices, he will see, from the Explanatory Notes at the back of the Estimates, that the present intention is to use Crown land which is available on Shenton Way and to put up a building in conformity with the type of building which is required on Shenton Way. This sum voted is by no means based on firm plans but, at the moment, we do know that we require a great deal of new office accommodation and attention has already been drawn in this House to the state of the office accommodation of, I think, the Registry of Marriages. There has been a great deal of pressure in this House that the Assembly should have more elbow-room in this present building and there are a number of offices which must be notorious to Members of this House for being quite inadequate to modern conditions. We have had a survey to see how much extra space is required under present conditions and the total demand is a very large figure; it is greater than the existing office accommodation inside Fullerton Building but I have no doubt myself that the time has come when this Government will have to spend a larger sum on new office accommodation and I certainly recommend that it should be spent on one good building which will serve for many years in future, rather than that we should continue to mend and patch and put up some shoddy and inferior building. This estimate is only a round figure at this stage but the intention is to put up a fine office block on Shenton Way and that is how the estimate is arrived at.

Mr John Ede: Mr Chairman, am I to understand from the Hon. the Chief Secretary that if this building were not put up on Shenton Way to conform with the standard required in that area, the building could then be brought in more cheaply?

Mr Goode: No, Sir. I would not like the hon. Member to go away with any such understanding. What I said was that we had land available on Shenton Way, that we need a building of the size of the buildings which are appropriate for Shenton Way and that we propose therefore to build the building in accordance with the standard set in Shenton Way. It is obviously necessary that a big office building should be centred in the heart of the City where it can do its business and while, of course, piling costs may be high in Shenton Way, if we try to purchase an area of land anywhere in the City to use an alternative site, I should think that it would come to at least as much. But the point is that we have vacant land available to us on Shenton Way and I think that we should encourage development on Shenton Way. I do not think that expenditure on a Shenton Way type of building will be out of proportion to the need we have for a decent block of Government offices.

4.07 p.m.

Mr Lim Koon Teck: Sir, it must be nearing the closing time for the Hon. the Chief Secretary suggested that I have forgotten the socialistic tendencies of my Party without having regard to the comfort of our civil servants. I made it very clear at the beginning that I do not grudge the spending of money for their comfort but all I wanted to know was what this money was for? I can see that the reply to my query on the modernisation of Division IV quarters was most unsatisfactory because what I really wanted to know was the number of quarters to be serviced.

Question put, and agreed to.

The sum of $2,845,310 for Head D 61 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Head D 62-

The sum of $2,308,787 for Head D 62 ordered to stand part of the Schedule.

Clauses 1 to 3 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Hart: Sir, I move,

"That the Bill be reported to the Assembly."

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Third Reading

Mr Speaker: Mr Financial Secretary will you now move the Third Reading?

Mr Hart: Sir, I move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

Mr Chew Swee Kee: I second the motion, Sir.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time.