TRADE UNIONS BILL

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Order read for resumption of debate on Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

Question again proposed.

5.31 p.m.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, the Minister gave a very sober account of the reasons that prompted the Government to introduce this Bill. But it was left to a backbencher to take it upon himself to speak on behalf of the Government and to go into matters, which were not touched on by the Minister in his speech at all. As was to be expected, there was reference made of the work of the previous Government vis-a-vis the trade union movement.

The previous Government was accused of being on the side of employers, of trying to choke the healthy growth of the trade union movement and of a number of other crimes perpetrated against the trade unions in Singapore.

But, Sir, if one were to be honest with one's self and if one were to go through the records of the industrial strife that took place during the life of the previous Government, one would have arrived at the conclusion that it was a lamentable fact that the trade unions in Singapore at that time had been misguided and had been made use of by people who did not have the interests of the country nor the interests of the workers at heart. Sir, I do not think it is a good thing that we should go into detail as to what the previous Government had done or had not done. Let us rather confine ourselves to the Bill that is before the House. The Bill, as the Minister has said, has incorporated a number of sections that are already in existence and also sections of the Trade Unions Bill in the Federation.

The Bill, however, has departed in two directions. One is that it is now felt that the officers of a trade union should only come from those who are citizens of Singapore or people born in the Federation of Malaya. Another one is that a trade union, if it is to be registered, must first of all be affiliated to the Trades Union Congress, which obviously will get exemption from the Minister under clause 59. The Minister also goes on to say that any registered trade union can have its registration withdrawn if it is no longer affiliated to the T.U.C.

Sir, it has been pointed out in this House by the Member for Kampong Kembangan that the time has come for control of the trade unions to be in the hands of the citizens of Singapore, and I feel that clause 28 introduced by the Government does not go far enough. On the one hand, Sir, we will be debating later on on the Citizenship (Amendment) Bill. In that Bill we are going to be asked to approve steps to make it more difficult for people to become citizens of Singapore.

Citizenship, Sir, is and must be the very treasure of a man living in Singapore. It should open to him, and it has opened to him, many gates of opportunities in Singapore. If it is really the desire of the Government to make it more difficult for people to become citizens of Singapore, surely, the same must be made in this instance, that in so far as the control of the trade unions is concerned, it should be left in the hands of people who are citizens of Singapore. The fact that the Government has, by this Bill, made it possible for people born in the Federation to become officers of a trade union -

Mr Speaker: Order. I was just wondering whether it would not be more convenient if those remarks could be made in the Committee stage where there is, in fact, a proposed amendment dealing with the matter being raised now. The Member for Cairnhill, of course, is perfectly entitled to carry on if he wishes to in that strain. But I thought it would be much more convenient if he would discuss the point in Committee, where there is opportunity to speak more than once; otherwise, there might be considerable repetition.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I agree with you, Sir. But I have brought it up because in the Second Reading of the Bill, the Minister touched on this point. I will, however, bring up this particular subject when the clause is being discussed in Committee. But one has the feeling, Sir, that in trying to throw the officership of trade unions open to people born in the Federation, it is just to make this law suit the needs of the P.A.P. Surely, Sir, in legislating, the Government should always pay attention to the needs of the country rather than the needs of the Party in power. But one comes to the conclusion that, because of this particular clause and of another clause, clause 30, against which I will speak, all these things are done to suit the P.A.P. Sir, one cannot divorce one's mind from the fact that before the Second Reading of this Bill, all steps have already been taken by P.A.P. trade union leaders to control the Trades Union Congress. If one were to believe what one read in the newspapers, then one would come to the conclusion that there was great rejoicing in the minds of the Front Benchers of the Government when they were addressing a mass rally on May Day. It was the Minister for Labour and Law who said, "From now on, no trade union can exist, unless and until it is affiliated to the T.U.C."

Sir, I have no objection to insisting or requiring that a registered trade union should be affiliated to the T.U.C. That is taking the right step to encourage a healthy trade union movement and to unify the movement. But to say that unless and until a trade union is affiliated to the T.U.C. it cannot be registered is just to say that the Government is prepared to allow the administration of this important part of the law to be given to the T.U.C. It will no longer be possible for the Registrar of Trade Unions to say, "We register you", or "We cannot register you." It will just be left to the T.U.C. to say that. The hands of the Registrar of Trade Unions will be tied. Of course, I am sure the Government now feels that, because the T.U.C. is in the control of its Party members, it will not be difficult to use that as an extra arm to choke any opposition from trade unions, which do not desire to be affiliated to the T.U.C. for obvious reasons.

Sir, Members will remember that not very long after the P.A.P. came into power, the Minister for Labour and Law said, "We will do everything we can to encourage the growth of national unions." That was said about some 8 or 9 months ago, and from what I can see, the encouragement of the growth of national unions since then has been a failure. There have been so few national unions formed. In fact, there has been an attempt on the part of the P.A.P. to start an amalgamated union of public employees. That is to say, a national union for all public employees. I do not think that union has made any headway, because many trade unions do not and cannot have confidence in that amalgamated union of public employees in so far as it is run and controlled by the Party in power.

There is a clause, Sir, in this particular Bill which says that it shall be an offence on the part of an employer to encourage the establishment of any trade union and to encourage any trade union leader to do things which are inimical to the trade union movement. And yet here we have the Government as an employer organising a trade union to encourage its civil servants to join their trade union.

Sir, the Member for Thomson has tacitly admitted, thereby insisting, that unions should affiliate to the T.U.C. "It is not democratic. But what is democracy after all? Let us see if it is desirable." And he left it at that. He should have continued and said, "It is desirable in the interest of the P.A.P. that trade unions should be forced to join the T.U.C. which is, after all, as it is today, an organisation or another arm of the P.A.P.

5.46 p.m.

Inche Buang Bin Omar Junid (Kallang): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, in the last five years in Singapore, we have witnessed several trade disputes and incidents affecting the labour movement. What were the reasons? The past Government encouraged the formation of trade unions in factories to such an extent that there existed two or three trade unions in each factory. The purpose of these unions was to cause conflict among them and the workers themselves. That is how yellow unions came to be formed.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Cairnhill said that the T.U.C. was nothing but an organisation merely to hoodwink the people in order to obtain publicity. But we have seen how the previous Government made use of its henchmen to help the employers to oppose genuine trade unions, which were fighting for the rights of the workers.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Bill that is before us today is a Bill, which is designed to protect the workers and the trade union movement in Singapore. With the passing of this Bill, I am confident that the safety of the people and of the trade union movement in Singapore will be ensured, although the Opposition still feel uneasy. However, the Government is determined to show, by deeds, its sincerity to the people and to the Opposition. We are not afraid of accusations levelled against us if we are confident that what we are doing is good for the people. The Government will continue to do its good work in order to gain the confidence of the people.

5.51 p.m.

Inche Ahmad Jabri Bin Mohammad Akib (Southern Islands): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to speak on the Trade Unions Bill before us this afternoon, although there may be allegations made against me that I have no right to speak on trade unionism on the grounds that I am not a trade union leader. I am not particularly concerned with the rights of the trade union movement or with matters concerning trade unionism in Singapore, but I wish to speak in the interest of the people of Singapore.

As the object of this Bill is to consolidate the trade union movement and to protect and safeguard the interest of the workers, nobody can deny that the trade union movement in Singapore: should be unified in the interest of the workers. However, there has been marked dissatisfaction expressed by certain sections of the trade union movement with the attitude of certain trade union leaders whose tactics appear to indicate that they will make use of the power at their disposal to coerce every trade union to join their trade union. Mr Speaker, Sir, if this kind of attitude is adopted by the trade union leaders who are in power today, we cannot blame some of the workers who are reluctant to take part in this unified trade union movement. For example, Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to draw the attention of this House to the Sunday Mail of 1st May:

(In English): "One of the leaders, Inche Buang bin Omar Junid, P.A.P. Assemblyman who is Secretary-General of the T.U.C. (Accounts), said that there were some workers who preferred to go home and sleep after their day's work; others who preferred to help their employers. `To these people I say it is better that you join a union because if you don't, we will fight you and wipe you out.'"

(In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, it should not be taken for granted that speeches of this nature will frighten those who refuse to be coerced. As people, they have the right to choose to speak and to engage in any way of life that is lawful. They will not be frightened in the least, because, if compulsion is used to match strength with strength, then those who have faith in godliness will be prepared to fight any form of compulsion.

Mr Speaker, Sir, one of the provisions in the Bill compels trade unions to be affiliated to the T.U.C. and many trade unions have expressed their dissatisfaction with the state of affairs prevailing in the T.U.C. But, unfortunately, these trade unions cannot voice their grievances for the reason that it seems that in the State of Singapore there are many forms of control and there is coercion - not only in the field of trade unionism but also (we have seen the action of the Government) in the field of education, and so on. But we, on the Opposition, have faith in democracy. The present Government is a majority Government elected by the people. If the people are not happy with the present Government, I think this is not the place to oppose it. If the Government think it fit to consider and weigh our views and amend their ways, they can withdraw so that Singapore can be built up by people who owe complete allegiance to the State.

There is another matter, Mr Speaker, Sir, to which I would like to draw attention. We still remember the tactics employed by trade union leaders five years ago in an attempt to bring the workers into their orbit. In the presence of the masses, they are prepared to talk about making sacrifices, to thump the table, toss their caps in the air, and make fiery speeches. If he is a Sikh, for instance, he is prepared to shave his beard in the presence of the masses as though to indicate that he is a genuine trade union leader. But as stated by the Member for Cairnhill, where are they heading for? Are they sincerely leading the workers of Singapore to prosperity? This is the question, and this has been the cause of concern among the masses.

6.01 p.m.

Mr G. Kandasamy (Kampong Kapor): Mr Speaker, Sir, when the first Trade Unions Ordinance, indeed the present Trade Unions Ordinance, was introduced in this country in 1941, it was introduced by a Colonial Government. The purpose and the desire of that Government was to create only an impression that trade unionism was allowed in the Colony, that they could go to the international forums, like the International Labour Organisation, and say, "Yes, we have introduced trade unionism."

But a colonial Government, as everyone knows, is nothing but an agent or an administrative machinery for the capitalists who exploited our country. It was clearly and cleverly designed that the Trade Unions Ordinance would never be given the opportunity for a strong, effective, organised and disciplined movement to be created, but that at all time we would have a trade union movement that was splintered, weak and ineffective. That was the position, one might say, until September 1959. When the Trade Unions Ordinance was introduced, which made it possible for any seven persons to form a union, then right from the word go there was no possibility of creating a good and strong union. If any person was disaffected with democratic decisions arrived at by a union, all he had to do was to gather another six friends of his and form a union. When that was done, the employers were not very slow at seizing the opportunity before them. Thus we found racketeers, opportunists, political adventurers - everyone joining in the game and forming unions. Employers, too, found it more profitable to have unions led by their own agents and to make side deals with them than to negotiate with the genuine unions and reach agreement.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the root of the riots which took place not long ago was inter union rivalry. There was a company union - a yellow union - a union deliberately created by the employers for the purpose of destroying a good, genuine union, which had the majority support of all the workers in that industry. In that set-up, Sir, it was natural that Government had no intention whatsoever of creating a trade union centre or a Trades Union Congress as we find it in other countries. Indeed, in Singapore for a long time, before the Trades Union Congress was registered under the Trade Union Ordinance, there was discussion between the Government and the trade unions whether the T.U.C. should be registered under the Societies Ordinance or under the Trade Unions Ordinance. Finally, when it was decided to register it under the Trade Unions Ordinance, it was nothing more than another union. It did not have more powers than any other union in Singapore. Among the 225 unions in Singapore, the T.U.C. was just another union. Not only did the Ordinance make and keep the T.U.C. so, but also the officials of the Ministry of Labour, and even the political chiefs, kept the T.U.C. in that manner. I remember, Sir, the T.U.C. representatives being invited to discuss certain labour problems. At the same meeting one would find representatives of some unions which never had a membership of more than 200. How then could the T.U.C. claim to be speaking for all labour, and how could the unions want to affiliate with the T.U.C. when they knew that they themselves could represent all labour, depending on who was the political chief of the Government?

Sir, previously we had trade union advisers who were sent to our country to advise trade unions on how to organise trade unions and how to set up rules. But no one needs trade union advisers from another country to come here and advise us on how unions should be set up. There are men in Singapore capable of organising and managing unions. But what was the role of those trade union advisers? Their role was nothing but to kill militancy and to destroy any coordinated action among the unions.

Sir, the Member for Cairnhill touched on the subject of the T.U.C. and said that the trade unions should affiliate with it. Yet in the same breath he said that affiliation to the T.U.C. should not be made compulsory. As long as it is possible for unions to remain in Singapore, get all the benefits that the T.U.C. can provide, and yet not bear the responsibility for that work, then there will be unions who will not affiliate not because the members want it so, but because the leaders want it so. The Member for Cairnhill also touched upon unions being created by Government the T.U.C. being led by the Party men. As usual, Sir, he has been trying his best not so much to put facts before this House, as to put out the party propaganda line.

In September 1959 there were 225 unions. Of this number, over 60 unions were splinter or yellow unions. Now, if these unions had been allowed to exist, we would have found ourselves no doubt in the same position as the people found themselves in 1956 and 1957. So rightly this Government had the Ordinance passed whereby splinter and yellow unions can be de-registered.

That is one aspect of the job of creating a unified movement. In this Bill, it has been provided that the number of persons who can form a union has been increased from 7 to 250. This has been deliberately done in order to ensure that unless and until 250 workmen in a particular category or occupation are desirous of forming a union, then no union should be registered. It also affords the possibility, at the time of re-registration, for so many other unions whose membership is now below 250 to be cancelled. In this way, it will be possible to create national unions, unions which do not poach on each other's territory, unions which will have a specified industry or organisation or craft from which they can recruit members.

The trade union movement has been classified into 19 industrial groups, and the unions which are on the register will be placed according to the membership in each one of these groups. But the rules for federation and amalgamation have been simplified particularly the rules for amalgamation, thus showing a preference for amalgamation of unions within each category.

Clause 11 specifically makes it difficult for the re-registration of smaller unions, and prevents the creation of splinter and yellow unions. Together with clause 7, and the amalgamation clauses, it will be possible to effect amalgamation within the several unions in each category. And we hope that in the not too distant future we will have only 19 unions representing all the workers in Singapore. This, I am sure, will make it possible for the prevention of rivalry between unions.

Sir, many unions made representations to the Rendel Constitution Commission on the position of trade unions in our country, and the question of permitting trade unions to set up political funds. I was a member of the delegation, together with the present Minister for Labour and Law and the present Minister for Finance, which presented a case for a trade union political fund. Though we tried to show that trade unions all over the world had the right to set up political funds and use such funds in the interest of the workers in promoting legislation, and publishing literature of a political nature, we were not successful with our case. We are, therefore, happy to note that this Government has now made it possible to set up political funds. When all this is done, when all these splinter and yellow unions have been taken off the register, there will still be some unions whose constitution is so cunningly devised that the rank and file can at no time, even if they dislike and disapprove of the leadership, remove their leadership. It is, I think, the most important thing in a trade union that the rank and file members should at all times have the right and the means to change the leadership whenever that leadership is not working in the interest of the members. But there are unions in Singapore whose constitution does not provide such means. Therefore, in this Bill when mention is made of the growth of a democratic trade union movement, it simply means that the workers - the rank and file members - should have adequate representation at all levels. Unfortunately, Sir, the unions which have the type of constitution which I have mentioned are led by aliens, by men who are not citizens of this country and who do not owe loyalty to this country; but the members of these unions are predominantly citizens of our country. We must make sure that the trade union movement at all times is in the hands of our people, that it is led by the people of this country. Only then can we have a trade union movement that is conscious of the interests of the people of this country.

Sir, the Member for Cairnhill said that the Government created a national union for Government workers and he mentioned specifically the Amalgamated Union of Public Employees. I want to make it clear, Sir, that Government did not create this Union. This Union was created by the amalgamation at the first stage of two unions and at a subsequent stage 10 other unions amalgamated and created the A.U.P.E. There were 39 unions serving Government and City Council workers in September 1959. Today, Sir, there are only 25 unions on the register, together with the Amalgamated Union of Public Employees, which goes to show that a large number of unions have amalgamated one way or another to create the Amalgamated Union of Public Employees. Today, the membership of this Union is over 8,000. The total membership of those unions which have not amalgamated does not reach 8,000. How can the Member for Cairnhill say that A.U.P.E. has failed? That this Union, supposedly created, as he has claimed, by Government, has failed when it has a total membership exceeding the total membership of the other unions?

I would also like to say something more in connection with the Amalgamated Union of Public Employees. This Union has claimed recognition on behalf of three groups of workers in Government and the City Council, and it is the Government with whom we are negotiating for recognition. We have not yet succeeded in getting that recognition. If this Union was created by Government, then it would be the easiest thing for Government to grant recognition to all grades of Government and City Council workers.

The Member for Cairnhill and the Member for the Southern Islands touched upon May Day. I can understand the feelings of the Member for Cairnhill, Sir. May Day 1960 will stay in the memory of all workers - maybe it will stay in the memory of Members of the Opposition too - because never in the history of our country did so many workers, as one newspaper put it, over 50,000 workers, attended a May Day rally. This rally was organised after the T.U.C. Constitution was adopted at the delegates' conference and after the officials of the T.U.C. were elected - not before, Sir.

If I had known and I am sure if the officials of the T.U.C. had known, that Members of the Opposition were so much interested in May Day rallies, then we would have made it possible for them to attend and thereby experience the spirit, the sense of loyalty, the sense of unity that was displayed at the rally. We might think about it in any case for the next rally. Sir, over 50,000 workers have endorsed the T.U.C. Constitution and have given support to the new officials. It happens that some of the officials are members of the People's Action Party. If the Singapore People's Alliance had trade unionists who were honest, dedicated and hard-working I am sure that today in the T.U.C. we might have found some of them. But, unfortunately, they did not produce any man of that calibre. If it is the P.A.P. which has the trade union leaders, and if it is the P.A.P. trade unionists who have the overwhelming support of the workers, it is not the fault of this Government at all. Leaders are elected as to how the workers want it.

Sir, the Member for the Southern Islands touched upon compulsory membership of unions. I would like to state here that we must correct the old state of affairs where 100 workers became members of a union and 300 workers remained outside and yet at the same time enjoyed the benefits of what the 100 workers had fought for and never had to shoulder their responsibility. The trade unions must correct that state of affairs. But membership of trade unions will not be compulsory. But I am sure the trade unions will make use of the Industrial Relations Ordinance whereby awards by the Industrial Arbitration Court will be made only to members of the unions. I am sure that if negotiations are concluded along those lines, then workers who are now not member of trade unions and who see the benefits which will accrue to them if they become members of trade unions will no doubt join the trade unions. But it will be wrong to say that anyone in the trade union movement will compel a member or worker to become a member of the trade union.

Sir, the Industrial Relations Ordinance has imposed certain responsibilities on the trade union movement. It takes the trade union movement and employer away from the situation which prevailed many years ago and brings them to the point where collective bargaining, negotation, conciliation, or arbitration, should be the mode of the day. If the unions' aspirations are to be met successfully, then the unions must be in a position to be able to present facts and figures to the Industrial Arbitration Court and, on the basis of sound reasoning, to get fair awards. In order to do this, it will not be possible for any single union to organise, for instance, research facilities in Singapore to organise workers' education in order to educate the workers, to understand the arbitration machinery, to understand the conciliation machinery, or to understand collective bargaining. This, therefore, will have to be the responsibility of a Trades Union Congress. If the Trades Union Congress is weak, if it is just one out of many unions, if it has only about 30 unions out of 100 unions, then it will not have the means to provide such facilities, nor will it be able to present, on behalf of labour, any cohesive policy at all. But industrial peace with justice, if it is to have meaning and hopes of realisation, it is necessary that there should be a certain amount of discipline within the movement. The discipline should be a discipline within the movement. The discipline should not be a discipline that is imposed but it should be a discipline that is created within the movement and accepted by all unions and workers alike. This is very important if industrial stability is to be maintained. We hope, Sir, that the new T.U.C., with its new constitution and with this Bill that makes it possible for all unions to affiliate with the T.U.C., will have the resources and the organisation not only to perform the services so essential but also to maintain discipline that is so essential for our country and the economy of this country. Sir, I support the Bill.

6.29 p.m.

Mr Thio Chan Bee: Mr Speaker. Sir, I would have thought that this Bill was to bring about unity among the trade unions. We also consider this a very desirable objective. But, Sir, there are two other questions which worry the minds of other unions in Singapore. One is this, Sir. In which direction is this united organisation going? For which destination is it heading? Sir, naturally, it is more economical to use one bus instead of 20 buses. But, if one bus is going to Pasir Panjang and another bus goes to Katong and the passengers are not given the right to choose the bus and they are all asked to get into the bus for Pasir Panjang -

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: Helicopter!

Mr Thio Chan Bee: - the Minister for Labour and Law may not like it, because he wants to go somewhere else in another direction. So there are workers who begin to wonder after the May Day rally speeches whether they are going to be compelled to join a union which they do not like, because the union is heading in the wrong direction. Under this Bill, will they be compelled willy-nilly to hop into the bus that takes them to the wrong destination, at least in their eyes?

I believe, Sir, in a democratic country we should try to persuade and encourage people to unite, but we should never force them to unite. If, by chance, because of disagreement as to the destination workers in the same occupation want to go into two different buses, I think it is only proper that they should be allowed to go into two different buses until they decide on going in the same direction or towards the same destination. But to compel all workers to go into the same bus heading for the same direction or destination, just because one old lord says it must be done, is not democratic.

Supposing some workers feel that they do not want to become trade union members at this particular juncture, will they be penalised? In the May Day rally, speeches were made indicating that every worker must be unionised; otherwise, he might be wiped out. In regard to a particular union, the second question arises. Will this union be compelled to join one particular association of trade unions? Sir, under clause 59 of this Bill, I see it is quite possible for the Government to approve more than one association of trade unions. But in practice, will the Minister give an assurance that it will be done, or is it the intention to give a monopoly to one particular association of trade unions? What happened a few weeks ago, Sir, the creation of the ten tall men in trade union circles has caused some misgivings, because if it is the intention to be democratic, then surely before the ten tall men are elected or appointed, others should be given a chance to come in. Then they can elect the ten tall men. But now the ten tall men have been elected for five years. If there is going to be one association of trade unions, with all the top men already appointed, what inducement is there for others who are not already in the bus to come in?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: They missed it!

Mr Thio Chan Bee: Sir, several trade unions have sent in representations complaining that although they have got a membership of more than 250 (one has got a membership of over 1,500), their registration has been cancelled or has not yet been approved. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister for Labour and Law - I hope he will forgive me for asking questions like a student - whether the principles of this Bill contravene certain human rights listed in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If these are the fundamental human rights, I am sure this Government, which is now self-governing, should respect these rights. Under Article 20 (1), "every one has the right of freedom, of peaceful assembly and association." I take it that one has got the right to join any union that he likes. "(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association." And Article 23 (4) says, "Every one has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests." If he feels that his interests are not being protected by a particular trade union and he wants to join another trade union or another association of trade unions, does this Bill say that he cannot do that?

Mr Speaker: Mr Byrne, in reply?

6.36 p.m.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am of the opinion that very little that was said by the Opposition side really requires any answer at all. Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Cairnhill has quite a long record of activity in trade unionism. He has claimed to have made a study of this Bill. He has told this House, Mr Speaker, Sir, that this Bill is founded on the present Trade Unions Ordinance as well as the Trade Unions Ordinance, 1959, of the Federation of Malaya. He has indicated to this House that this Bill departs only in two ways from the present law and from the law of the Federation. Mr Speaker, Sir, it is not my function to educate him in trade union matters. But I would draw his attention to the Comparative Table which has been published together with this Bill. He will find there that this Bill departs in 17 ways from the present Trade Unions Ordinance and from the Trade Unions Ordinance, 1959, of the Federation of Malaya. Mr Speaker, Sir, he has stated that the membership of the executive and the officers of trade unions should be restricted to Singapore citizens. Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, he -

Mr Speaker: Order. Could I suggest to the Minister that that point could be dealt with in Committee, as there is a definite amendment on that?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will deal with this point in Committee. The Member for Cairnhill has also dealt with clause 59 of the Bill, and that matter could also be dealt with in Committee.

On the general principles of the Bill, Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Kampong Kapor has dealt with them most ably, and I do not propose in any way to add to what he has said.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole Assembly.

Assembly immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.-[Mr Byrne].

Bill considered in Committee.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

6.40 p.m.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 2, line 40, to leave out "industry or calling" and insert "occupation or industry".

Mr Speaker, Sir, this amendment is necessary to reproduce the same sequence of words as occurs in clause 11 (1) (b) and clause 14 (b) (vii) and elsewhere in this Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 3, line 23, after "trade", to insert ", occupation".

This is a similar amendment, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Amendment agreed to.

The Chairman: There is a note about the resetting of the type*. That will be done.

• The note reads as follows:

In page 3, lines 22 to 28, to reset as follows:-

"(d) the promotion or organisation or financing of strikes or lock-outs in any trade or industry or the provision of pay or other benefits for its members during a strike or lock-out,

and includes any staff committee appointed to deal with the employees and employers;".

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 3 to 9 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 10-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 5, to leave out lines 36 and 37 and insert "of all members of the executive and officers of the trade union and of each branch of the trade union and of every member of a committee provision for which is made in the rules of the trade union."

Mr Speaker, Sir, the purpose of this amendment is to require the union, when it applies for registration, to furnish details of the titles, names, ages, addresses and occupations of the executive as well as of the officers of the trade union and of the branch and of every member of the committee, provision for which is made in the rules of the trade union.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

6.45 p.m.

Clause 11-

Question proposed, "That clause it stand part of the Bill."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to touch on paragraph (c) of sub-clause (1) of this particular clause. Sir, under this clause, before a trade union can be registered, it must comply with certain facts in order to satisfy the Registrar. Paragraph (c) says that a trade union must, first of all, be affiliated with the T.U.C. I said during the debate on the Second Reading of this Bill that while it is a good thing that trade unions should be asked -

The Chairman: Order. I do not think the clause itself specifically says that a trade union must be affiliated with the T.U.C. Paragraph (c) reads:

"...is affiliated to an association of trade unions exempted by the Minister...".

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Yes, Sir, but it has been pointed out by the Minister in his speech as to what it means. If we leave it at "... an association of trade unions exempted by the Minister ...", it means that a trade union must seek affiliation with the T.U.C. even before it is registered. It has to become an affiliate of the T.U.C. before qualifying for registration. I think it should not be so. If it is the genuine desire of the Government to promote a unified and a united trade union movement, so long as a trade union qualifies to be registered under the various paragraphs of sub-clause (1) and that union must seek affiliation with an association of trade unions exempted by the Minister, then it should be incumbent upon that association of trade unions to approve the application for registration of that trade union. That should be the right way to go about it. Otherwise, it would mean that the administration of the Department of the Registrar of Trade Unions is dependent upon the whims and fancies of the leaders of the association of trade unions exempted by the Minister.

I would urge upon the Minister that it would be more desirable and less reprehensible if it is laid down that so long as a trade union qualifies to be registered by the Registrar under the provisions of all the other paragraphs of sub-clause (1), the first step to be taken by that union on registration is to seek affiliation with the T.U.C. and then the; association of trade unions exempted by the Minister must approve the affiliation. Otherwise, the work of registering that union is just left in the hands of the association of trade unions exempted by the Minister.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, we have had considerable experience of what went on before and we are determined to see that that situation is not reproduced in the future. We say right here and now regarding the proposal in the Bill that a trade union will first have to be affiliated to the association of trade unions exempted under the provisions of clause 59 before it ever appears on the register, that this what we want. We cannot accept the position that a union should be registered first if it qualifies for registration and then it is to seek affiliation. That accounted for all the industrial unrest we have had in the past. If the unions could do this sort of thing, we would get the position developing again where the association of trade unions would just become one out of 225 unions. We will never allow that situation to develop again.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I am afraid the Minister missed my point. Even before a trade union could be considered for registration by the Registrar of Trade Unions, it would have to get the blessing of the T.U.C.

Mr Byrne: Correct.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Even if the association of trade unions exempted by the Minister were to feel that the trade union seeking registration does not contravene the other paragraphs of sub-clause (1), yet it could still say `No', because it happens that the person or persons who are organising that trade union do not happen to share the same political beliefs as the leaders of the present association of trade unions that will be exempted by the Minister. It is more proper that the Government should do its job. It should register a trade union if it feels that it is the right thing to do and not place all sorts of obstacles before its registration is approved. And once registration is approved, it should be incumbent upon this registered trade union and upon the association of trade unions exempted by the Minister that they should be together, instead of leaving the whole administration of the registration of a new trade union in the hands of the association of trade unions; exempted by the Minister, unless, of course, the Minister is now going to say that the association of trade unions to be exempted by the Minister is going to be an organisation of the Government.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, all these specious reasons are well known to us. We are quite used to all these antics

Mr Speaker, Sir, in clause 59 - we do not even mention the T.U.C. as you have pointed out - we only state that associations of trade unions can apply for exemption from any or all of the provisions of this Bill. We leave the trade union movement absolutely free, as a whole, to form their own association, and when they have done so, they apply for exemption under clause 59. Their rules are looked into by the Minister, and if he has no objection to these rules, then they are exempted from registration. Once this body is exempted from registration, it cannot change its rules without the approval of the Minister. That is the situation we want. We have set up the various categories of unions. We have left the unions completely free. Those who want to form federations within these categories could do so if they please. We say, Mr Speaker, Sir, that if we fall into the trap of agreeing to what the Member for Cairnhill is now trying to suggest to this House, we will be in exactly the same position as we were, and that is what we will never agree to.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I really fail to understand what the Minister is trying to say. He says in this House that he has made no mention of the T.U.C. whatsoever and that any association of trade unions can apply for exemption from registration under clause 59. But, Sir, it was only on May Day that the Minister said, "In due course, every trade union must be affiliated to the T.U.C." Come, come! I hope the Minister is not going to treat us like children to the extent that we do not know what the Minister has said outside and inside this Assembly. He should be bold enough to say, "This is the T.U.C. that I want. This is the organisation that I want to make use of, because it is at present under the control of members of my Party." Why not come out boldly and say it blatantly? Do not treat us like children. How can it ever be possible to say that if we were to take out paragraph (c) we would be coming back to the same position as before? If a trade union complies with all the provisions set out in paragraphs (a) to (f), it com- plies with all that the Government requires. Where then is the trap? We take exception only when it is said, "It must be affiliated with the association of trade unions exempted by the Minister first." I suggest, Sir, that when a trade union is registered, then that is the time to seek affiliation, and that even when it seeks affiliation the T.U.C. must, under its rules to be approved by the Minister, allow for its application for affiliation. It has already happened, Sir. A registered trade union applied for affiliation to the T.U.C. one month ago and no approval has so far been given. Is the running of the Department of the Registrar of Trade Union to be left in the hands of the T.U.C., or is the Government now going to say that the T.U.C. is a branch of the Government?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, nobody has ever said that the T.U.C. is a branch or an arm of the Government. All this is complete nonsense.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we are realists. We know what went on before and we are determined to see that the people who played this dirty game will never be allowed to play it again. We are determined that before any trade union is registered in our Ministry it has a clean name, and it can get that clean name only when it is affiliated to an association of trade unions that is exempted from the provisions of this Bill. Otherwise, what will happen is this. These unions will be on the register and they will seek affiliation. And if they cannot get affiliation, they will carry on. You will then get a split leadership in the trade union movement. That is the sort of thing the Member for Cairnhill delights in.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Surely, Sir, the Minister is capable enough to put on the certificate of registration a condition that the trade union must seek affiliation to the association of trade unions to be exempted by the Minister within a period of three months. Or, shall we say, an approval could just be given in writing to that effect and when the affiliation actually takes place, then the certificate of registration may be issued. Can it not be done in that way?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, we have taken a lot of pains to cleanse the trade union movement and we do not want .a situation to arise where it can get dirty again. We say that a trade union will first have to seek affiliation to the association of trade unions that is exempted under the provisions of this Bill, and that only after it seeks and gets the affiliation will it then come on to our register.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 14-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 8, line 13, to leave out "levy or collect" and insert "provide for the levying or collection of".

Mr Speaker, Sir, as the words stand in the clause, the provisions are unduly restrictive, because the leadership of a trade union may get into trouble for neglecting to levy or collect subscriptions. Whenever any subscription is in arrears, they would be offending against that provision. For that reason, Mr Speaker, Sir, we have got to make this amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

7.00 p.m.

Question proposed, "That clause 14, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise to draw the attention of the Minister to sub-paragraph (ix) of paragraph (b) of this clause, at page 8 of the Bill. This sub-paragraph means, Sir, that if any trade union, which is already affiliated to an association of trade unions exempted by the Minister, is suspended or kicked out by this association, then ipso facto it shall lose its registration. I would not like to go all ever the ground again, but as I have said just now, I would urge upon the Minister to see to it that the rules of the association of trade unions that is to be exempted by him should be quite stringent in so far as the expulsion of an affiliated member is concerned. It should not be so easy and free for this association to say, "I do not happen to like your face; I do not happen to like the way you do things. It is not a question of principles, it is a question of personal dislikes. Out you go, and you are no longer a registered trade union." I am sure the Minister would like to give his assurance that in going through the rules of this association before he exempts it, he will see to it that the rules are stringent enough in so far as the expulsion of the affiliated members is concerned.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Opposition must give us a certain amount of credit for being responsible people. Sir, this is a discretion that will be judiciously exercised.

Question put, and agreed to

Clause 14, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 16-

The Chairman: There is an alteration to the marginal note*. That will be done.

• In page 9, marginal note, to leave out "period of notice of intended cancellation or determination of appeal" and insert "specified period".

Clause 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 17 to 24 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 25-

Question proposed. "That cause 25 stand part of the Bill."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek clarification from the Minister as to what the proviso at page 12 of the Bill means. It is clearly stated, Sir, at the beginning of the clause at page 11, that only a person under the age of 21 years but above the age of 16 years can become a member of a trade union. And yet the proviso says, "unless provision be made in the rules thereof to the contrary". Does it mean that in some unions membership may be open to people under 16 years?

Mr Byrne: Sir, this provision has been taken from the Federation Trade Unions Ordinance.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: The rules made by the Minister under this Bill or the rules of the trade union itself?

Mr Byrne: The rules made by the trade union.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 25 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 26 and 27 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 28-

The Chairman: Before I call upon the Minister, there appears to be a typographical omission in line 3 of the amendment. The expression "local office" should really read "subsidiary local office". In clause 2, we find "the subsidiary local office" and not "the local office". I trust hon. Members have made that alteration now.

Having done that, hon. Members will also have noticed that the Member for Cairnhill has given notice of two amendments. I understand that the purport of those two amendments could be contained in an amendment, which he proposes to move to the Minister's amendment. I trust that is correct.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Yes, Sir.

The Chairman: I will now call upon the Minister to move his amendment. Mr Byrne.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 12, line 41, to leave out from "(1)" to the end of line 18 in page 13 and insert -

Sir, should I read the amendment*?

• The amendment reads as follows:-

In page 12, line 41, to leave out from "(1) " to the end of line 18 in page 13 and insert-

"A person shall not act as an officer of a trade union or any branch thereof or of any federation of trade unions or as the person in charge of a subsidiary local office unless he is either a citizen of Singapore or a person born in the Federation of Malaya.

(2) A person shall not act as a member of the executive or as an officer of a trade union or any branch thereof or of any federation of trade unions or as the person in charge of a subsidiary local office if -

(a) he has while being a member of a trade union been convicted for the expenditure of the funds of a trade union in an unlawful manner or for an unlawful object or on an object not authorized by the rules of the trade union; or

(b) he has been convicted by any court of criminal breach of trust, extortion or criminal intimidation:

Provided that this paragraph shall not apply where the Minister is satisfied that the person so convicted has been reformed and has become fit to be a member of the executive or an officer of a trade union.".

The Chairman: Is the Minister satisfied that the Order Paper correctly sets out his amendment?

Mr Byrne: That is so, Sir.

The Chairman: The Minister need not read it then.

Mr Byrne: The purpose of this amendment, Mr Speaker, Sir, is to make the disqualifications that are applicable to an officer of a trade union also applicable to the members of the executive.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out, be left out."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not objecting to the Question to leave out the words proposed to be left out. But I will move my amendment when the Question is proposed to insert the words proposed to be inserted.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out," put, and agreed to.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be inserted, be there inserted."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have given notice of an amendment to the original clause, but in the light of the amendment now proposed by the Minister, I beg leave to move a separate amendment.

Amendment handed in.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move an amendment to the amendment proposed by the Minister.

The amendment proposed by the Minister does not go far enough to the point where I had originally tabled my amendment. I feel that not only the officers of a trade union but also the members of the executive should be limited to citizens of Singapore only. The amendment of the Minister says that any person, before he can be an officer of a trade union, must either be a citizen of Singapore or a person born in the Federation of Malaya. I have said just now that if it is really the intention of Government to see that only citizens of Singapore are given every opportunity to help in the welfare of this country, surely it is important that in the trade union movement officials and members of a trade union should be citizens of Singapore. Later on at this sitting, or maybe at the next sitting, we will be debating the Singapore Citizenship (Amendment) Bill whereby the Government is proposing to make it more difficult for a person to become a citizen of this State. Therefore, I say to the Government: if we really want to see to it that we give a meaning to Singapore citizenship, let us confine the members and officers of the executive of a trade union to citizens of Singapore only.

The Chairman: Will the hon. Member please move formally?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I beg to move,

To leave out lines 1 to 7 inclusive and there to insert-

"A person shall not act as an officer or a member of the executive of a trade union or any branch thereof or of any federation of trade unions or as a person in charge of a subsidiary local office if -

(a) he is not a citizen of Singapore;"

with the consequential re-lettering of the present paragraphs (a) and (b) as (b) and (c).

7.15 p.m.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, we have always been accused of being undemocratic in all the things we do. The Member for Tanglin has said just now that there are some workers who want to go about their business in 20 different buses and that we want to put everybody into one bus. The Member for Cairnhill has said that we are trying to turn the T.U.C. into another arm of the P.A.P. Mr Speaker, Sir, in the case here, we have shown that we are liberal-minded, but nevertheless, we are still accused. Mr Speaker, Sir, we have repeatedly shown in this House that we are realists. We look at the situation as we know it today. Who are in the trade union movement? There are people who are aliens. As my friend and colleague, the Member for Kampong Kapor, has said, there are many people who are aliens in the trade union movement. They may be aliens - some of them do not owe any loyalty to the country - but they are nevertheless in the movement. Now we have been very rational in our approach to this problem. We make a distinction between the officers of the union and the executive committee. We say that it is very necessary that people with their roots in this country should qualify to become officers in any trade union. A person who is born in the Federation of Malaya may not be a citizen of Singapore, but nevertheless he has his roots firmly in this country. We say that he should qualify to be an officer in a trade union equally with the citizen of Singapore. We have given a definition to the term "officer". It means the main officials of any executive committee, such as the president or chairman, the vice-president or vice-chairman, the treasurer, the secretary, the assistant treasurer, the assistant secretary, the paid officials in those categories such as paid secretaries or assistant secretaries, paid treasurers or assistant treasurers. Those are the people who qualify to be officers. Now in the executive committee itself, there might be people who are aliens who are not citizens of Singapore. They could serve on the executive committee. We are not unreasonable and say, "Get out of it now. We want everybody who is a citizen to be on the executive committee of the union." That is being very unfair. We desire the same thing that the Member for Cairnhill desires. We want to arrive at a position where every member of the executive is a citizen of Singapore. But we approach the problem in a practical way. We do it step by step. When we want to do things step by step, we are accused of being undemocratic. The whole thing becomes complete nonsense when you argue on that basis.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, when the new citizenship law came into force in 1957, 327,000 people became citizens of Singapore. People who are born in the Federation of Malaya could become citizens of Singapore with just a period of two years' residence here. People who are born outside Commonwealth countries will have to have a longer residential qualification. But most of them have already become citizens of Singapore. Those who have not become Singapore citizens are only a very few. They have not `become Singapore citizens because they do not wish to, or because they have not got their residential qualification to apply for citizenship. Surely, Sir, if we really want to give a meaning to Singapore citizenship, if we really want to see to it that the running of this country is left in the hands of people who are citizens of Singapore, then let us face facts. Let us say - it should be so - that before you can become an officer or a member of the executive of a trade union, you must be a citizen of Singapore.

Sir, the fact that it is open to people who are born in the Federation who have not yet become citizens of Singapore would make one come to the conclusion that because some of the ten tall men in the T.U.C. are not yet citizens of Singapore, this provision in the Bill is therefore made just for them and for the Government of the day.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, I have just heard a submission from an irresponsible person that Bills are drafted to fit in with the desires of a political party We are responsible people here. We are trying to do the right thing by the people of Singapore. And I have heard it said just now that what we are trying to do is being done with ulterior motives, Sir. We are not concerned here with ten tall men. We are concerned with the merits of this Bill, and the merits of what we are trying to do. I think it is quite unfair and improper for anybody without any evidence whatsoever to cast doubts on our motives.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has called me irresponsible and unfair and that I have no evidence. If the Minister would be good enough to say that the ten tall men are all citizens of Singapore, I stand corrected, and I will extend my sincerest apologies to him.

Amendment to the amendment negatived.

The Chairman: We are back to the original amendment of the Minister.

Question, "That the words proposed, to be inserted, be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Original amendment accordingly, agreed to.

Clause 28, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Chairman: There is an alteration in the marginal note*. That will be done. There is a consequential amendment to renumber sub-clause (2)+. That will be done.

• In page 12, marginal note, to leave out "Officers." and insert "Executive and officers.".

• In page 13, line 19, to leave out "(2)" and insert "(3)".

Clause 29 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 30-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 14, line 13, at end, that a new paragraph (c) be added in the terms of the wording that appears in the Order Paper*.

*The new paragraph (c) reads as follows:

"(c) exempt any association or combination of employers applying to be registered as a trade union from the provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section 11 of this Ordinance or any trade union of employers deemed to be registered under the provisions of subsection (1) of section 77 of this Ordinance from the provisions of subsection (2) thereof or any officer or member of the executive of any registered trade union of employers from the provisions of subsection (1) of section 28 of this Ordinance.".

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Shall I speak on the new paragraph, Sir?

The Chairman: The new paragraph (c) is now before the House.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I find it difficult to understand this new paragraph. I understand certain parts of it, but I cannot understand some part of it. In this new paragraph, why should reference be made to paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of section 11? That particular paragraph refers to a trade union of employees. It has nothing to do with a trade union of employers at all. So why say that this trade union of employers should not be affected by a paragraph that refers to a trade union of employees? It is making confusion and I am confounded.

The Chairman: Perhaps the Member for Cairnhill should read paragraph (b).

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Paragraph (b) of subsection (1)?

The Chairman: Yes. If the Member for Cairnhill will read clause 11(1) (b) right through, he will find that it also deals with an association or combination of employers.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: This amendment, Sir, is proposed to make it easy for trade unions of employers, so that they will not have to go through the process of re-registering. It is difficult to insist that officers of a trade union of employers should be citizens of Singapore or persons born in the Federation. That I agree. I agree to this amendment, but I give notice that I will be speaking on the other two parts of this clause.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed, "That clause 30, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I have given notice that I will speak against paragraphs (a) and (b) of clause 30.

Clauses 28 and 29 lay down very clearly that a person should not be a member of a trade union if he is this, that and the other. And there is a proviso in clause 29 giving power to the Minister to allow a person to become an employee of a trade union. After having laid down in black and white certain conditions which must be observed before a person can become an officer of a trade union, or a member of the executive, or an employee of a trade union, why should the Minister now want power to say that, if it is found that there is a man who is good enough to be an officer of a trade union even though he may not be a citizen of Singapore, even though he may not be born in the Federation of Malaya, he can become an officer of a trade union. This takes it far afield. There is no restriction. It is left to the Minister to say "Yes, you can, because I think you are quite all right."

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have proved my point, but after a waste of a lot of time. The Opposition Member never took the trouble to read the Bill. If he had, he would have found that this clause has been taken from the Federation Ordinance. There are occasions, Mr Speaker, Sir, where the Minister can make an order granting exceptions from the provisions of clauses 28 and 29. Under the provisions of this clause, all that it seeks to do is this.

7.30 p.m.

It is quite possible for instance for the case of an employee who has been convicted of a criminal offence to be considered by the Registrar. The Registrar might say that he should not be employed because of his previous bad record. He has power under the provisions of clause 29 to appeal to the Minister. But over-riding all that, Mr Speaker, Sir, is this power of exemption that is given in clause 30 to the Minister, and that is identical with the provisions of the Federation Ordinance, Sir.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, when it suits the Minister he makes reference to the law of the Federation, but when it does not suit him, he does not do so. In the Federation, the restriction is to citizens of the Federation of Malaya. It is not as what we have in clause 28.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 30, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 31-

The Chairman: Alteration to the marginal note* - that will be done. Mr Minister?

• In page 14, marginal note, after "of", to insert "members of the executive and".

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 14, line 16, after "the" where it secondly occurs, to insert "members of the executive and of the".

May I take them all together, Mr Speaker, Sir, because they refer to the same matter?

The Chairman: Are they all connected?

Mr Byrne: Yes.

The Chairman: Perhaps we can take them en bloc, unless any Member wishes to suggest an amendment to any other line.

Hon. Members indicated dissent.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, the purpose of this amendment is to require notice of the members of the executive of a registered trade union to be placed on the notice boards of the offices of the union or its branches, and also to require the Registrar to be informed of the change of holders of the post of officers, members of the executive committee, and members of committees.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 14, line 19, after "the" where it first occurs, to insert "members of the executive and of the".-[Mr Byrne].

In page 14, line 21, after "be" to insert "a member of the executive or".- [Mr Byrne].

In page 14, line 23, after "or", to insert "a member of a committee provision for which is made in the rules of the trade union or when".-[Mr Byrne].

In page 14, line 26, to leave out "officer" and insert "member of the executive or officer or member of a committee".- [Mr Byrne].

In page 14, line 29, to leave out "officer" and insert "member of the executive or the officer or the member of the committee". -[Mr Byrne].

Clause 31, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 32 to 38 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 39-

Question proposed, "That clause 39 stand part of the Bill."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I seek clarification from the Minister. Two or three registered trade unions can amalgamate and become an amalgamated trade union, and these two or three trade unions can still function as autonomous trade unions. That is how I read it. The amalgamated union, formed by the amalgamation of these two or three undissolved trade unions, will have to seek registration as a trade union. That is in the last two sentences of sub-clause (4) of this clause. That is to say, before this amalgamated trade union can be registered, it has to affiliate to the association of trade unions to be exempted by the Minister. If such a state of affairs is to arise, does it not mean duplication? The member unions of this amalgamated union are already affiliates of the T.U.C., and because they are amalgamated, they are a second affiliate of the T.U.C. How much money have they to pay? How much voting are they allowed? Would it not mean that, for the purpose of registration, it is a trade union, and therefore as a trade union under clause 11, it has to be affiliated to the T.U.C.?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, all this is being done deliberately to waste as much time as possible.

The Chairman: Order. I do not think the Minister should take that attitude. That is perhaps alleging an improper motive. Let us deal with this calmly and quietly.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, the intention of this clause is quite clear. Any two or more registered trade unions can amalgamate as one trade union. The word is "one" trade union. When the trade unions decide to amalgamate, they will form one trade union, and the next move is to get affiliated -

Tun Lim Yew Hock: No. It is not so.

Mr Byrne: - to the association that is exempted under the provisions of clause 59. Then they come on to the register. What is the difficulty?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I am afraid I do not understand, Sir. These two unions can amalgamate even without dissolution. Therefore, the two unions still exist.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, there are provisions in this Bill dealing with amalgamation and there are provisions dealing with federation. In Part VIII of the Bill you will see how a federation is formed. In clause 39 you will see how an amalgamation is formed. When the trade unions amalgamate, Mr Speaker, Sir, they cease to be separate unions. They are separate components before they are amalgamated. But once they have amalgamated, they become one trade union. The position is quite unlike that of a federation. If the Member for Cairnhill will only take the trouble to look at paragraph 3 (o) of the Fifth Schedule in page 41, that clearly shows what a federation is. The components of a federation keep their separate identities.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, if the Hon. Minister will take the trouble to look at line 8 on page 18, he will not have to make such a lengthy speech in reply to the simple question 1 asked. On this particular line it is said that two or more unions can amalgamate without dissolution. If the unions are not dissolved, therefore the unions are still there. Is that not so?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, just now the Member for Cairnhill jumped to the conclusion that I was quite wrong when I referred to clause 11 (1) (b) and he said that it only refers to employees and there is no mention of employers in it. When he took a second look, he saw how right I was. Mr Speaker, Sir, here also he has jumped to the wrong conclusion. The words used here are that two or more unions can amalgamate and become one trade union with or without dissolution or division of the funds of such trade unions. That is very clear, Sir.

Mr A. P. Rajah (Farrer Park): Mr Speaker, Sir, surely the two things are separate - with or without dissolution of the unions and the division of the funds of the unions. What the Minister is attempting to do is to read "dissolution or division of the funds" as one, which makes complete nonsense.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is very clear. The words used are, "Any two or more registered trade unions within one of the categories . . . may become amalgamated as one trade union". If they are amalgamated as one trade union, they cannot keep their own identities. How can they keep their own identities? How do you get one trade union if there are in fact two? It is as simple as all that, Mr Speaker. "With or without dissolution or division" relates to the funds of the unions and not to the identities of the unions, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Rajah: Sir, the only course I can suggest to the Minister, if he is going to dissolve the funds, is to put it in nitric acid or burn it up.

Mr Byrne: If that is what you want, you can have it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 39 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 40 to 48 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 49-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 23, line 25, after "deposited,", to insert "to".

This is to correct a grammatical mistake, Sir.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 49, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 50-

The Chairman: There is a typographical emendation - in page 24, line 32, "trustee" to read "trustees". That will be done.

Clause 50 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 51 to 53 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 54-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 26, line 31, to leave out "the officers of the federation" and insert "all members of the executive and officers of the federation and of every member of a committee provision for which is made in the rules of the federation".

Mr Speaker, Sir, this amendment is similar to the amendment that I have already moved to clause 10 (2) (d) on page 5, Sir.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 54, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 55 to 57 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 58-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 28, line 16, after "societies", to insert "or mutual benefit organisations".

This amendment is necessary, Mr Speaker, Sir, because of the Mutual Benefit Organisations Bill, which will soon be enacted.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 58, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 59-

Question proposed, "That clause 59 stand part of the Bill."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I find that under this clause the Minister may exempt any association of trade unions from any or all of the provisions of the Bill, but I do not find there any power to withdraw the exemption. In other words, once you have exempted an association, the exemption holds good till eternity, unless there is amending legislation.

Again, Sir, in sub-clause (3) of this particular clause, it says:

"Any trade union or federation of trade unions may by resolution of its executive affiliate...".

Why not come out with the truth that trade unions must affiliate? There is no more discretion left to a trade union or federation of trade unions whether or not to affiliate. They have to affiliate. So why say "may" and make it sound better? They must and they have to affiliate.

Mr Byrne: I do not propose to go over the ground I have already covered. Mr Speaker, Sir. I only wish to point out that the association of trade unions must first apply to the Minister for exemption from registration. After he has considered the rules and is satisfied with them, he grants the exemption under the provisions of this clause.

It is provided in sub-clause (2):

"An association of trade unions which is exempted by the Minister under subsection (1) ... shall not change its rules without the written permission of the Minister"

Mr Rajah: With due respect, Sir, I think the Minister has not answered the question raised by the Member for Cairnhill whether, in the event of the Minister having exempted an association of trade unions and he subsequently feels that they are not doing the right thing either by him or by the country, its registration should be withdrawn. The question is whether under the Bill that can be done.

The second question which I myself would like to ask is whether the Minister would grant exemption if there were more than one association of trade unions seeking exemption under sub-clause (2)?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is by implication that if an association of trade unions changes its rules without the permission of the Minister, it is no longer exempted. The exemption is subject to those conditions. It ceases to be an exempted association of trade unions if it changes its rules without permission.

On the second point, Sir, I would say quite firmly here that it is the intention of Government to exempt only one association of trade unions from registration.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister is saying that he has no power to withdraw the exemption so long as the association of trade unions does not amend its rules without his sanction. This is a rather dangerous exemption. If exemption is given to an association of trade unions and future events prove that such an association is not working in the interest of the country as a whole, surely the Minister should have the power to withdraw that exemption. If he has no such power, then we will be having this Frankenstein in our midst.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, we have considered all this ad nauseam. In the Federation, associations of trade unions are registered under the Societies Ordinance. Under our present law, we require associations of trade unions to register under the Trade Unions Ordinance. In this case, we do not require any registration. We exempt on application for exemption. The exemption is granted on certain conditions, but the associations of trade unions cannot change its rules without the permission of the Minister. If it breaches those conditions, it is no longer exempted.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 59 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 60 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 61-

Question proposed, "That clause 61 stand part of the Bill."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, under clause 61, there is no mention made of gazetting any formation of a federation of trade unions. Surely the formation of a federation of trade unions is an important event and the workers of Singapore should be made aware of the registration of such a federation.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, in my Second Reading speech on this Bill, I pointed out to this Assembly that a federation of trade unions is not a trade union for the purposes of this Bill. The trade unions will be registered and their registration gazetted.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 61 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 62 to 71 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 72-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

In page 33, line 13, after "officer", to insert "or member of the executive".

It is felt, Mr Speaker, Sir, that members of the executive should be subject to the same penalties as officers.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 72, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 73 to 75 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 76-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 34, line 35, to leave out "71" and insert "72".

That is a mistake, Sir.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 76, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 77-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 35, line 32, after "(b)", to insert "and in paragraph (c) ".

This was inadvertently left out, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 77, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 78 to 80 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

First Schedule-

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

In page 36, line 33, to leave out "Harbour Board" and insert "Port Workers".

This is a more apt description of the category.

Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Second to Fourth Schedules inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Fifth Schedule-

The Chairman: There is a Note:

In page 40, line 37, to leave out "law" and insert "laws".

That will be done.

Fifth Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported with amendments; read the Third time and passed.