ANNUAL ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR PUBLIC SERVICES AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES FOR 1961

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

Resumption of debate on Question (9th December, 1960),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 19 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 18." -(Inche Ahmad Jabri bin Mohammad Akib).

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

2.31 p.m.

MAIN ESTIMATES, 1961 (Cont.)

Head 19 -

Question again proposed.

Mr A. P. Rajah (Farrer Park): Mr Speaker, Sir, over and above the questions raised by the Member for the Southern Islands, I wish to raise this particular question. Mr Speaker, Sir, you will notice, under sub-head 18, the words "Temporary Staff" appear. As far as this House has been able to understand, it would appear that the parking meter scheme has come to be regarded as something which will be permanent in Singapore. If that is so, is there any point in keeping the staff temporary? In those circumstances, should not the staff be made permanent?

The Deputy Prime Minister (Dr Toh Chin Chye): Mr Speaker, I will take this opportunity, first of all, to review the position of the car parks. Since we started opening the pay-as-you-park scheme on the 21st of December last year, up to the 30th of last month we have collected altogether a revenue of $351,337. The total charges amounted to $168,260. That brings into the Consolidated Fund a profit of $183,077. Apart from the dollars and cents of the business, it is more gratifying to note that the scheme has given employment to 77 parking attendants and six other staff. The reason why the staff engaged on this scheme has been labelled temporary is that when the scheme was initiated, it came under the supervision of the Registrar of Vehicles, which was then a department of the City Council. As Members in the House know, we are now in the process of integrating City Council services with the Central Government. The staff engaged on this scheme must, therefore, come under the temporary category, as distinct from those on the establishment. In other words, they are paid a provident fund, but they do not receive a pension. Moreover, such staff are not transferable to any other department of the Government. In this connection, I may draw as a basis for comparison other staff who are employed on schemes like the Work Brigade. Members of the Work Brigade are also on the temporary establishment, as distinct from those on the civil list. That, I hope, will answer the question raised by the Member for Farrer Park.

Yesterday, the Member for the Southern Islands mentioned that some motorists were dissatisfied with the service provided in the car parks. I would like it very much if the Member for the Southern Islands could give me specific instances where my car park attendants have been discourteous, and I will promise him that investigations will be made.

Ever since the car park scheme was started, I have received only two letters of complaint addressed personally to me. Both of them have been investigated. One of them was found to be the fault of the motorist himself; and in the case of the other one, we found that the car park attendant was not in any way responsible for scratches being made on his car.

The car park attendants are provided with uniforms after their probationary period of three months. Those who are newly engaged are in mufti, but after they have been tried and they satisfy the senior parking attendant of their capabilities, they are confirmed and are issued with uniforms. However, they are not given a number, and the idea put forward by the Member for the Southern Islands that car park attendants should be so distinguished will be looked into. Nonetheless, I would like to inform the Member for the Southern Islands that in every car park there is always a senior parking attendant who is located in a kiosk, and if any motorist has any complaints to make against a car park attendant, he is at complete liberty to go straight to the senior parking attendant and lodge his complaint, or, alternatively, write a letter to the Registrar of Vehicles and his complaint will be attended to. But in justice to the car park attendants, I would say that not all the blame falls upon them. It has been brought to my attention by the car park attendants themselves that many motorists are selfish. They park overtime; they then quietly steal into the car park and drive off without paying any surcharge. Naturally, when they are stopped by the car park attendant, some of these motorists begin to protest quite violently. I would say that my sympathy is more with the car park attendants than with the motorists, because the job of a car park attendant is not an easy one. He has to stay out in the sun or in the rain to look after the car park lots, and he has to be patient with motorists who can be adamant, stubborn and may even be non-co-operative.

Tun Lim Yew Hock (Cairnhill): Mr Speaker, Sir, in his speech just now, the Deputy Prime Minister described the car park attendants as his car park attendants. If they are his car park attendants, it would seem to appear, Sir, that the allegation outside that these car park attendants are P.A.P. members has a foundation. As Dr Toh himself, he has no car park attendants, but as a member of the Government, yes.

The car park attendants are the servants of the Government and therefore the servants of the public.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: You see, Mr Speaker, I am quite different from the Member for Cairnhill -

The Minister for Labour and Law (Mr K. M. Byrne): Ex-Member for Havelock.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I expect loyalty from those who serve under me, as the head of my Ministry; so it is natural that those who are working in my departments should expect a degree of loyalty from their Minister. When I refer to the car park attendants as my car park attendants, I refer to the civil servants equally as our civil servants, or the civil servants in my department as my civil servants. But I presume the Member for Cairnhill, when he was once upon a time Chief Minister, never had that sense of bringing the civil servants in sympathy with the policies he was carrying out at that time, and so he could never at any time refer to his civil servants as his civil servants. However, I would like to kill the charge made by the Member for Cairnhill that the car park attendants are all P.A.P. members. Car park attendants are appointed not because of their party affiliations; and if the Member for Cairnhill wishes to know, I can inform him that these attendants were recruited from the Labour Exchange. They were selected by a committee set up under the City Council's Welfare and Labour Section. Most of the candidates have come from the Work Brigade. That is in keeping with the declaration made by the Government some months back that in future most of the Division IV posts will be filled by members of the Work Brigade, and we see no reason why car park attendants should not also be recruited from this Work Brigade. However, to lay the charge that they are P.A.P. members and are therefore appointed as car park attendants is quite unfair.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have never laid any charge at all. I said there is an allegation outside that car park attendants are P.A.P. members, and that is why the Minister has described them as his car park attendants. His reply now shows that although he cannot say that all car park attendants are P.A.P. members, he does admit that there are quite a good number of P.A.P. members who are car park attendants.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Sir, what particular party the car park attendants belong to is none of my business. They are chosen because of their (1) honesty, (2) ability to deal with the public. This is a Division IV post really where members of the public service have important relationships with the public at large. No one is taken on because he is a P.A.P. member, but he is taken on if he can show that, first of all, he is honest, that he will not pinch money, or that he will defraud the motorists. That is the simple criterion for the selection. The Member for Cairnhill has said that he has not made the allegation but by repeating it here, he has made an imputation and, therefore, it is up to me to clear the point.

2.45 p.m.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, English is indeed a difficult language. If I were to keep on saying what I have said, it will not get through to the Deputy Prime Minister.

Mr Rajah: Sir, may I come back to the point of my question, leaving aside the constitutional issues involved in the Minister calling his staff "my staff"? On "Temporary Staff", the Deputy Prime Minister gave the House the impression that these people will continue to be designated temporary, even though the parking meter scheme has come to be a permanent feature of the Budget, and he sought an analogy with members of the Work Brigade. The point there is quite different. The members of the Work Brigade are only there in order to carry out certain schemes of the Government, and if those schemes are not voted for from year to year, then the need for the Work Brigade goes. But here where the parking meter scheme has become a feature of our national life - and I expect it to be a permanent feature - should employees working on that scheme continue to be labelled "temporary"? I do not think it is fair to them.

Inche Ahmad Jabri Bin Mohammad Akib (Southern Islands): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, it seems to me that the Minister concerned has given clarification at length, but he has not clarified my point. Possibly he thought that the reason why I brought up this amendment was that the workers are P.A.P. members.

My point is that the service given by the parking attendants is not satisfactory. Their uniform cannot be distinguished from that of drivers. When we wish to park our cars, we have to look around for the parking attendants, and sometimes it takes about ten minutes for one to come along. A person who uses these parking places is usually one who has important business to attend to, and he cannot afford to waste time. Therefore, if he has to look around for an attendant, I feel that the service is not satisfactory. It is only right that the Government should look into this matter. The attendants could be given a distinctive uniform so that they could be easily distinguished from other people in the parking places. That is the reason why I brought up this amendment.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: In reply to the Member for the Southern Islands about motorists having to wait for some time before they can find a car park attendant, I would like to inform the House that each attendant has to look after 26 parking lots. If we give an allowance for absences due to sickness, leave, and so on, on the average it works out to each attendant having to look after 30 parking lots. One way of solving the problem, of course, would be to engage more car parking attendants so that one attendant can look after 15 parking lots. But that would not be economical for the simple reason that if one car parking lot is full, it remains so for hours, and then we will have idle attendants and under-worked staff. It has never been brought to my attention as a specific complaint that a motorist has got to wait as long as ten minutes for a car parking attendant to come to him. But if, as I have said previously, the Member for the Southern Islands could state in which particular car parking lot he experienced such a difficulty, I will assure him that all these little problems could be ironed out.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, with due respect to the Deputy Prime Minister, he has not yet answered my question.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I have forgotten to answer the question raised by the Member for Farrer Park. I said just now that the staff are temporary because we are now in the process of integrating the City Council services with the central government, and until that is completed, they do not yet come under the control of the Establishment Office. But presumably, when integration is completed, they will come under the control of the Ministry of Finance. The Establishment Office will then be in a position to decide what services are temporary and what services are to be permanent.

Mr Rajah: As the answer of the Deputy Prime Minister is that the staff will cease to be temporary when integration does take place, I am satisfied.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I have said it is up to the Ministry of Finance.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): As a result of the clarification given by the Deputy Prime Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $940,800 for Head 19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 20 -

The Chairman: I take it that the Member for Mountbatten is not moving amendment (1)*?

*Amendment (1) reads as follows: That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of sub-head 1.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng (Mountbatten) indicated assent.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of sub-head 16.

Item (1) of sub-head 16 reads "Co-operative Education...$1,500". I seek information as to whether the Government is going to encourage the expansion of co-operative societies in Singapore, or is this matter to be treated as "frozen"? If one looks at the expenditure for 1959, one will find that over $5,000 has been allocated for this purpose. I cannot find any portion of this expenditure being allocated elsewhere.

Apart from that, I would like to bring to the notice of this House the sad state of affairs in some co-operative societies which have been established for quite some time. There is now a shortage of officers to run them successfully. Previously, there was an officer who received training abroad and, as far as I know, this officer has now been transferred to another department; and he has been replaced by his assistant who is short of staff to help him in his job. I would like to say that several long-established co-operative societies will be forced to close down for the reason that they cannot function successfully. This can be attributed to the fact that their members are not very active. In particular, I know of two co-operative societies in the Southern Islands which are run by officers who have a limited knowledge of how to run them. They need guidance and education from the proper co-operative department. As a result of the shortage of co-operative officers skilled in administrative work, there is no doubt that some of these co-operative societies do not receive the guidance that they should receive. The co-operative movement should be expanded and the societies should be guided to run on economic lines. It is appropriate therefore for the Government, if it is their intention to see the expansion of the co-operative movement, to engage more Co-operative Officers, keep an eye on the existing co-operative societies, and render all assistance to these Officers by disseminating the principles of co-operative societies, and so on.

3.00 p.m.

The Minister for National Development (Mr Tan Kia Gan): Mr Speaker, Sir, the provision of $1,500 for Co-operative Education is intended for the purpose of defraying expenses for persons attending talks and lectures on co-operative principles, organisation and methods, accounting systems, etc. during the time when they are free.

Just now the Member for the Southern Islands mentioned an officer who was trained and later transferred to another Department. This is a matter which happened at the time when I was not in the Ministry of National Development. But as far as the Ministry under me is concerned, we know that the officer who is in charge of co-operatives will be retiring very soon, and we are looking forward to recruiting a young man who could be trained, so that he could help in giving lectures to officers of co-operative societies all over the Island to revive the activities of such societies.

In the year 1960, due to a reorganisation of the Department and preparatory work in strengthening the co-operative movement, not much work was done to give such lectures to officers of co-operative societies. But I can assure the Member for the Southern Islands that when the training of a new officer has been finalised, measures will be taken to improve facilities to train officers of co-operative societies to revive the activities of such societies.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, in view of the assurance given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of sub-head 17.

In this provision, the vote says, "Allowances to part-time inoculators, rural organisers and drivers". I wish to seek information from the Minister concerned whether the increase in the provision is for additional strength of inoculators from Government service, or whether it is to provide inoculation courses for the rural people. As far as I know, there are no inoculation facilities in the Southern Islands, so that the islanders have to come to Singapore for the inoculation of their poultry.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, part-time inoculators are persons employed from the rural areas to work in the same district where they come from. All of them have a rural background and are engaged in agriculture in one form or another. Their main functions are to carry out pig and poultry inoculation for farmers, under supervision.

At present there are 33 part-time inoculators, and 14 other part-time inoculators are engaged. That accounts for the additional expenditure stated in the Estimates. The 14 part-time inoculators are specially recruited to carry out the inoculation of young chicks. It is intended to inoculate these young chicks at Telok Ayer Quarantine Station when they are a day old, so that protection will be given to them. When the chicks are six days old, another inoculation is done free of charge. The reason why I engage these 14 other part-time inoculators is that we want to provide better services throughout the island of Singapore, including the Southern Islands.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $2,195,070 for Head 20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 21 -

Mr Rajah: I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 21 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of sub-head 5.

Item (2) of sub-head 5 says, "Istana Negara Domain - Gardener, Grade II, and Other Temporary Staff". Mr Speaker, Sir, two points arise out of this. The first point is: why should the staff continue to remain temporary, although integration has taken place some considerable time ago, and therefore the reasons which the Hon. the Deputy Prime Minister advanced for the temporary nature of this staff do not apply? The second point is: there is a vote "Yang di-Pertuan Negara" under Head 1, and I submit that this particular vote should appear under Head 1, so that the public would know exactly what it costs the State to maintain the Yang di-Pertuan Negara.

The Chairman: Is this amendment connected in any way with the hon. Member's next amendment [Amendment (2)]*?

*Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 21 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 6.

Mr Rajah: It is in a way connected, Mr Speaker. Perhaps I could speak on that too?

Mr Tan Kia Gan indicated assent.

Mr Rajah: Sub-head 6 shows "Istana Negara Domain - (1) Maintenance of Mechanical Equipment, (2) Fertilisers and Insecticides, and (3) General Stores". Here again, I take it that the maintenance of the Istana Negara Domain concerns all the grounds in the domain and that the necessary equipment and fertilisers and insecticides are required to maintain the domain. I would submit again that they should properly appear under Head 1.

The Chairman: The Question is,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 21 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of sub-head 5. The debate may range over the next amendment.*

*Amendment (2) reads as follows: That the sum to be allocated for Head 21 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 6.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Farrer Park, I think, wants to know why the temporary staff remain temporary. The provision for this temporary staff is also shown for 1960. This is for 55 daily-rated mandores, motor mower drivers and labourers, and their rates of pay range from $3.15 per day onwards. Their duties include grass cutting, keeping the domain clean, cutting and removing fallen timber and diseased trees, making minor road repairs, clearing drains, weeding plant beds, pruning hedges, and disposal of litter after public Visits on National Day. All this staff come under "Botanic Gardens". That is why the sub-head appears under "Botanic Gardens". And as to why it is not put under the Head "Yang di-Pertuan Negara", it is a matter which perhaps will be looked into.

3.15 p.m.

Mr S. V. Lingam (Aljunied): Mr Speaker, Sir, could the Minister tell us whether this amount of $78,580 is to beautify the Istana Negara Domain just for the purpose of enabling the Prime Minister and the Minister for Finance to practise golf?

The Chairman: Order. I do not know whether the Member for Aljunied was here when I said in no uncertain terms that I was going to prevent any personalities from creeping into this debate, because they are completely irrelevant to the matter before the House.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir, this is one of the items about which I wanted information. When I put up questions about this item in this House, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development gave me this answer: that the Domain is used by the Prime Minister, with the permission of the Yang di-Pertuan Negara, to play golf on.

The Chairman: Order. I have always discouraged any debate on the Chairman's ruling. My ruling is that personalities of that nature are not to be introduced in this debate. If the hon. Member has a question which is relevant, he may ask that question. I do not know whether he wishes to pursue that subject.

The Minister for Culture (Mr S. Rajaratnam): I think he is dried up!

The Chairman: Order.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, since you have ruled that no debate should centre around personalities in the Committee of Supply, I would suggest that the Member for Aljunied read again what was exactly said in the Hansard.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may come back to my own particular problems. The first problem which I raised, Mr Speaker, was Government employing people who have been in Government service, it would appear, for a number of years, and yet being treated as temporary. That I think is a question of principle which the Government must fairly meet and solve. Mr Speaker, Sir, if you will run your eye over sub-head 5, item (I), you will see under paragraph (vii), "Other Temporary Staff - $109,850". The only persons, it would appear, to be in permanent employment in the Botanic Gardens are people who hold grades like Mandore, Grade I; Watchmen; Mason. Grade II; Carpenter, Grade II; Gardeners, Grade II; Signwriters, Grade II. There appear to be about ten permanent employees only in the Botanic Gardens As for the rest of them. I do not know how many there are. If $75,000 is for 55, then I take it $109,000 might be for well over 100. So it would appear that in the Botanic Gardens there are about 11 permanent employees and about 150 temporary employees. If that is so, I am suggesting to the Government that the position is very unsatisfactory and they should look into it.

The Chairman: Order. May I just comment on that? That obviously is a matter of principle which appears to me to come under the portfolio of the Minister for Finance (Establishment). Therefore, if an opportunity presents itself, perhaps the Member would like to raise that point when we come to Head 28.

Mr Rajah: The other point, Mr Speaker, Sir, involved in the question raised by me is the question of the Istana Negara Domain, which has certain items of expenditure under it. This may appear to be a small matter, Mr Speaker, Sir, but I think the principle involved will be accepted by the Government, that if part of the Istana Negara Domain is occupied by Government servants, then I would like to know whether the grounds which are appurtenant to the houses occupied by Government servants are maintained by these daily-rated employees. If that is so, then I think it would not be correct, because other quarters occupied by Government servants are not maintained by the Government.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not aware of what the Member for Farrer Park has just said, that is, about Government servants staying in the Istana Negara Domain and whether the grounds are being kept by these employees. If the Member for Farrer Park has information of that kind, and if he will give it to me, I will certainly look into it.

The Chairman: I take it that this may be an appropriate item for the Estimates Committee.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it is perhaps an appropriate item for the Estimates Committee as to whether it should appear under this head or some other head. But the point I wish to make in principle is this. Under the previous Government I know for a fact that certain houses were occupied by Government servants. But under the present Government I am not quite sure whether those quarters which had been occupied by Government servants are being occupied by Government servants. If that is so, and if their grounds are being maintained out of this vote, then I am suggesting to the Government that that is not proper. In view of that, Mr Speaker, Sir, might I have leave to withdraw these two amendments? I will take the necessary steps for the Estimates Committee to consider them. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (2)* is not being moved.

*Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 21 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 6.

The sum of $495,870 for Head 21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 23 -

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of sub-head 1.

Mr Speaker, Sir, while dealing with this amendment, might I also touch upon item (2) because the question involved is absolutely the same. Mr Speaker, I notice that there are only token votes against these two posts. Is it then the intention of Government that these two posts should be abolished, or is it because of the question of integration that token votes have been put in order that, during the course of the ensuing year, some arrangement might be made as to what the salaries of these two posts should be.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, under the City Council integration plan, the City Engineer's Department has been merged with the Public Works Department to form one organisation. When the former Director of Public Works, an expatriate officer, left the service under Malayanisation in November 1959, it was arranged for the City Engineer to take over his duties in addition to his own. Hence the emolument of the Director of Public Works is no longer necessary, and a token provision has been entered in the Estimates. Under the scheme, which is under consideration, for the reorganization of the P.W.D. and the City Engineer's Department as an integrated department, one of the two posts of City Engineer and the Director of Public Works will be abolished.

Mr Rajah: In view of the explanation of the Minister for National Development, might I be given leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr A. P. Rajah-

*That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of sub-head 1.

The Chairman: Amendment (2)* is not being moved.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (43) of sub-head 1.

Item (43) - Lady Superintendent, previously rated at $1,400 and currently rated for the ensuing year at $1,280. Mr Speaker, Sir, if you look at item (44) you will find that the cook is in receipt of a salary of $1,330; and if you will run your eye further down the Estimates, Mr Speaker, the House and Mess Servants is in receipt of an even more handsome emolument - $1,410. May I ask the Minister who is the Superintendent in this establishment?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Lady Superintendent of Richmond Bungalow is Mrs Balik, who has been employed in this post since April 1960 on a basic salary of $105 per month. The reason why she is getting such a low salary is that she has other duties for which she is paid by other sources, these duties being supervision of holiday bungalows owned by the Federation Government, the Malayan Railway and some private people.

Mr Rajah: Sir, am I to understand from the Minister's reply that this lady has several other avenues of employment, and that the basis of this item is that it should be related to the emoluments which she gets from the other two employing authorities? If that is so, and if it is intended to run Richmond Bungalow with any efficiency and sense of decorum and propriety, then it is hardly feasible that there will be discipline in Richmond Bungalow - and I suppose it is necessary that holiday bungalows should have discipline - if the cook gets more than the Lady Superintendent, and the house and mess servant gets more than the cook. It is hardly likely that the Lady Superintendent could discipline them. That is the only point. Although I laud the object of the Government to save money, the money thus saved at the expense of discipline and good order is money ill saved.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, I would only make the remark that if a man were to be offered the choice between his life being run by a Lady Superintendent and his stomach being taken care of by a good cook, I am quite sure he will agree that he would rather have a good cook!

The Chairman: That is obviously the opinion of a bachelor!

3.30 p.m.

Mr Rajah: I do not think that goes to the root of the matter, Sir, It might assist the Deputy Prime Minister in his philosophy of life to poke fun in that way, but I think as a system of budgeting, there is a system of employment where different grades are given different salaries because one is superior to the other. Assuming that that is the correct way of maintaining discipline, then paying the Lady Superintendent, who appears first on the list, a lesser salary than the other two hardly conduces to discipline. As I was sitting down, Sir, my neighbour, the Lady from Mount-batten, says that perhaps it is because she is a woman that she is being paid less. I do not know. There may be something in that. But anyway there it is. But if you run your eye over page 143, Mr Speaker, Sir, you will find that the Lady Supervisor there gets quite a handsome emolument, whereas this particular Lady Superintendent that we have been discussing seems to be, on the face of it, ill-paid.

The Chairman: Would the Member wish to touch on item (52)?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: We might as well.

Mr Rajah: We might as well, yes.

The Chairman: There is an amendment [Amendment (4)]*, standing in the name of the Member for Farrer Park.

*Amendment (4) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (52) of sub-head 1.

Mr Rajah: That is so, Sir. With your permission, might I also speak on that?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Rajah: The point I wish to raise, Sir, was not to say that she should get less but merely to draw a comparison that while this lady gets $1,280, the other Lady Supervisor gets $6,000 a year. Could the Minister for National Development tell us what is the total emolument of this Lady Superintendent at Richmond Bungalow, including that given by the other two employing authorities?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of what the other Government and the private bodies are paying this Lady Superintendent. But this arrangement has been going on for quite a long time. Ever since it came about, the Singapore Government has been paying only part of this Lady Superintendent's total wages. In addition, she receives wages from the Federation of Malaya, Malayan Railway and private organisations. The emolument paid to her by the Singapore Government can therefore be treated as only an honorarium in respect of the supervision of the bungalow itself.

The Member for Farrer Park has touched on the Lady Supervisor of Government Holiday Bungalows. This Lady Supervisor of Government Holiday Bungalows in Singapore is paid a salary of $423.08 per month. This post also carries a travelling allowance. The Lady Supervisor of Government Holiday Bungalows in Singapore is responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of all Government Holiday Bungalows in Singapore, and for checking inventories of all furnished Government quarters and institutional quarters. She also supervises watchmen who look after vacant Government quarters. Her duties in respect of the holiday bungalows include supervision of caretakers and bungalow servants, checking inventories, making surprise checks, providing replacement of crockery, cutlery, linen and furniture, and the raising of public debtors' bills for services such as washing of linen, etc. She is responsible for the proper and orderly running of holiday bungalows in Singapore.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I do not wish to press the point too far. The only point I wish to make, Sir, is that it did not make good reading, looking at the Budget, for the Lady Superintendent to be getting very much less. But it would appear from what the Minister has said that she is an employee of three or four different authorities and, therefore, this $1,280 is related to the emoluments she gets from the other authorities. If that be so, Sir, why did the Lady Superintendent of the previous year get $1,400, whereas the employment of the one who has come on in March this year has been reduced by $120?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: The old supervisor left us. Mr Speaker, Sir, and the salary scale for this supervisor is $105, by increments of $2, to $1 17. That perhaps answers the query of the Member for Farrer Park.

Mr Rajah: I do not think it really does, Mr Speaker, Sir. But I do not wish to press the point. May I be given leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr A. P. Rajah-

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (52) of sub-head 1.

The Chairman: The amendment is not being moved?

Mr Rajah: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment (5) at page 160 of the Estimates - "Construction of Crematoria". Mr Rajah.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 54.

Sub-head 54 is the construction of crematoria at $65,650. Could the Hon. the Minister for National Development inform the House where these crematoria are going to be constructed, and what use the present crematorium at upper Aljunied Road is being put to, or whether it is being made use of?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to inform the Member for Farrer Park that we are not going to construct new crematoria. The provision of $65,650 is money set aside for the development of the grounds of the crematorium in Upper Aljunied Road. It is proposed to have a Garden of Remembrance, and there are earth works requirements and turf ing yet to be done, including general landscaping. The horticulture treatment, planting, general restoration of grounds, etc., amount to $60,000, and the supply of furniture is estimated to be $5,650.

Mr Rajah: Sir, is the crematorium at Upper Aljunied Road being used at the moment, or is it not being used?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: It is not functioning yet.

Mr Rajah: My recollection is that the construction of the crematoria was completed some considerable time ago. Mr Speaker, Sir, you may remember that there was considerable demand for such crematoria to be constructed. As a result of that public demand, Government and the City Council came to some arrangement to share mutually in the cost, and as a result of that, those two crematoria were constructed. As far as I can remember, Mr Speaker, Sir, construction was completed about two years ago. But I understand that they are not in use. I have not been inside the building to inspect them, but looking at them from the outside, there seems to be absolutely no reason whatsoever why they are not in actual use at the moment-

The Minister for Education (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): How about going in?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, the building of these crematoria was completed by the end of 1950. Since then it has not been possible as yet to operate them. I understand that the reason for the delay is preparation of the necessary crematoria by-laws. It is expected to be able to finalise them early next year. Staff will have to be recruited to run the crematoria. Minor works on the grounds and structures have to be completed. They are expected to be completed by early next year.

Mr Rajah: Sir, in view of that explanation, might I be given leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $9,516,180 for Head 23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 25 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr C. H. Koh:-

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of sub-head 1.

The Chairman: Mr Koh? He is not here.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mrs Seow Peck Leng:-

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of sub-head 1.

The Chairman: Mrs Seow, I take it you are not moving?

Mrs Seow Peck Leng indicated assent.

Inche Mohd. Ali Bin Alwi: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (287) of sub-head 1.

Mr Speaker, could the Minister concerned first clarify whether the cooks in the General Hospital cook food or only prepare dishes for patients, before I pursue the matter further?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health (Dr Sheng Nam Chin): Mr Speaker, Sir, if the question is just whether cooks in the General Hospital prepare food, then the answer obviously is yes.

The Chairman: For patients and others?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Yes.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): For patients and others, is that so, Mr Speaker?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Yes.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, apart from these cooks, could I be informed whether there are other cooks? Are there Muslim cooks? Because I am told by people of Islamic faith, who are patients in the General Hospital, that from the food prepared it cannot be determined whether it is cooked mixed or otherwise. But the crockery used to serve the food is irrespective of whether the patients are of Islamic faith or other faith. This state of affairs will make the Malays reluctant to go to the hospital for treatment. As I have said, one of the main reasons is that the food is being mixed freely.

3.45 p.m.

In addition, Sir, I would like to be informed whether these are the only cooks. In the opinion of the Ministry of Health, the number of cooks may be sufficient and there is no necessity to increase the number. Are the duties of these cooks carried out according to a fixed schedule?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have had occasion during previous sittings to remark that the Member for Kampong Kembangan is wont to speak on false premises.

I have to state here categorically that, in so far as the diets in the hospital are concerned, they are not mixed. Muslim patients have Muslim diets, and the other patients have other diets. The diets are never mixed. Neither is the crockery mixed. Perhaps the Estimates do not show the position of the cooks as clearly as it is. Item (287) of sub-head 1 provides only six cooks and item (285) one hospital cook. This does not mean that the General Hospital employs only seven cooks to look after the diets of more than 1,000 patients. Due to arrangements made in the previous regime, many cooks have been classified under hospital and health servants. In fact, at the present moment, there are 31 medical and health servants working as cooks in the General Hospital. The cooks designated in the Estimates are actually head cooks and cooks in charge of particular kitchens and particular diets. Under item (287), where there are six Special Grade Cooks, only four cooks are holding substantive posts, and two posts have been vacant for some time. My Ministry has asked the Establishment Office to unfreeze these two posts so that circulars or advertisements could be put out for Malay cooks in particular to fill these posts. Actually one of these posts has been unfrozen and we have put out circulars for Malays and Muslim Indians only. So far there has been no applicant. Because the post is a promotion post, only serving officers of Grades I, II and III are eligible to apply. We have therefore again written to the Establishment Office to ask for approval and permission to circularise this particular post to all serving officers, limiting the applicants to only Malays and Muslim Indians. In so far as the other cooks are concerned, there are 31 medical and health servants performing the functions of cooks, and of these there are two Muslims who prepare the Muslim diets and Muslim food.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with the explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health. But I am surprised that when we ask for an explanation we are alleged to be people who are dreaming. I am prepared to bring to the notice of the Minister concerned instances where Muslim patients refused to take the food provided and were forced to get food from outside. I raised this question not because I seek publicity but because I only wished to bring what I know to the notice of the Minister concerned, who is a Muslim. Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Can I speak after leave has been asked to withdraw?

The Chairman: If the Parliamentary Secretary thinks that the amendment should not be withdrawn and that he would like to speak, then, of course, he can do so. But leave has been asked of the House that the amendment be withdrawn, and I will pose the Question, "Is it the pleasure of hon. Members that the amendment be withdrawn?"

An hon. Member: No.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): I am forced to take this opportunity to participate in the debate on this amendment moved by the Member for Kampong Kembangan, as it is related to the amendment standing in my name on Head 25 in respect of item (3) of sub-head 104.

The Chairman: Item (3) of sub-head 104 reads "Crockery and Cutlery". Perhaps it would be convenient to discuss this topic as well, as it is on the same principle of segregating Muslim food. I take it that there are no objections. Inche Ahmad Jabri.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, on the subject of Muslim food, this is quite an old story concerning the Malays. This matter is brought up in this Assembly with a view to improving the state of affairs concerning Muslim food in hospitals. It is proper that matters concerning Muslim food should be put right. It is not our intention to bring this matter up in order to belittle those who are non-Muslims. We want to avoid giving such an impression in respect of non-Muslim patients in the General Hospital. It has been said that the Malays do not prefer to receive treatment in hospitals because they have more faith in the bomohs. But I say here frankly that that is not the true reason. The reason is that the treatment in the hospitals does not conform with their religious requirements as regards their particular diet. If we believe in the principle of upholding religious freedom, then this matter should not be treated lightly. We have, in fact, brought this state of affairs to the notice of the hospital authorities, and they have replied to the effect that it is not possible for them to provide special treatment for Muslim patients on the ground that this will incur additional expense. This is not proper reasoning. As stated by the Member for Kampong Kembangan, the real grouse is that the different diets are brought to the patients placed on the same trolley and the same crockery and cutlery is being used. Naturally, the Muslim patients feel that they have no appetite to partake of food served by the hospital authorities. This state of affairs should be looked into by the hospital authorities and special attention should be paid to the needs of Muslim patients so as to make them happy in the hospitals.

4.00 p.m.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have stated just now that the diets supplied to Malay patients are not mixed with those for other patients, and I say it again here that the utensils are definitely separated from the utensils for the other patients. I am not aware that they use the same scoop or the same spoon for scooping different diets. The instructions are that Muslim food is to be scooped with a special scoop reserved for Muslim diets only.

On the subject of the trolley, however, I am unable to assure the House that different trolleys are used, simply because of the fact that the trolleys used in the Hospital are very expensive as they are electrically operated, with heating devices and other gadgets. It is not actually possible to provide the use of one trolley for, say, one patient per ward.

Other than the trolleys, utensils and other items are all separated.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, the Government's budget for 1960 showed a surplus of $6.8 million, and I think an amount expended to show respect to peoples of various religions cannot be an expensive item of expenditure - in this case the purchase of trolleys for different uses. Another point I wish to raise is that from what I know special attention is given to food for Sikh patients, but no special service is given to Muslim patients.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, Sir, I really did not wish to make any comments on this business, but since the Member for the Southern Islands has been so persistent, I feel that it is appropriate that in this House we come to debate on general policies and matters which affect the people as a whole. The Member for the Southern Islands has been very persistent on matters concerning the Muslim religion. We all realise the susceptibilities and sensitivities of the Muslims, the Christians, the Buddhists, the Hindus, the aethists, and so on; but if we were to run the State according to the innumerable sects that we have in Singapore, I am quite sure that it would not be possible for any administration to run smoothly. I would only like to make this point: that while the great teachings of all religions, including the Muslim religion, are tolerance and liberalism, I would like to point out, as all Members of this House know, that there are public eating places to which Muslims go where there is even much less care or division of crockery and utensil as has been taken now in the General Hospital.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: The hon. Member for the Southern Islands has mentioned that in the case of Sikh patients there are special attendants looking after and distributing their food. This also takes place as far as possible where Malay patients are concerned and where Malay attendants are available to do it. I might state here that my Ministry is paying particular attention to the employment of Malays in the various grades of work, and we have actually encouraged Malays to join the nursing service and the midwifery service with which I shall deal later.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, what is said by the Deputy Prime Minister is not true - that I wish to enlarge the matter. It was brought up after all efforts had been taken to rectify the position. However, in view of the assurance and explanation of the Government, I beg leave to withdraw.

The Chairman: The amendment really is in the name of the Member for Kampong Kembangan, and leave was not granted. I will now put it to the vote.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (344) of sub-head 1.

Mr Speaker, before I seek clarification from the Ministry concerned, I would at the same time wish to dwell on items (423) and (425) which are related to the amendment I have just moved.

The Chairman: That would perhaps be convenient.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: No objection.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, in principle, I certainly admit that the objects of the Ministry of Health are good, particularly when it appears that the Ministry is increasing its nursing staff. I do not know what were the entrance qualifications last year, but I want to know the qualifications this year for the posts mentioned in the four items, amendments to which I have given notice of*.

*The amendments reads as follows:

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (393) of sub-head 1.

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (423) of sub-head 1.

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (425) of sub-head 1.

Mr Speaker, are opportunities to be given to the people of Singapore, who possess Malay school qualifications, for the posts of Assistant Nurses and Pupil Midwives? In this matter, I would also ask whether the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health is recruiting staff on a quota system for Malays, Chinese, Eurasians, and so on. This will give us a clear picture and it will encourage Malay youths to send in their applications for the vacant posts mentioned just now. Apart from that, Mr Speaker, I would also ask when the advertisements for the vacant posts will appear in the local newspapers.

The Chairman: The Question is, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (344) of sub-head 1." The debate may range over amendment (6) in respect of item (393) of the same sub-head, amendment (7) in respect of item (423) of the same sub-head, and amendment (8) in respect of item (425) of the same sub-head*.

*The amendments reads as follows:

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (393) of sub-head 1.

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (423) of sub-head 1.

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (425) of sub-head 1.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, one of the first things the new Government did on assuming office was to open the avenues of employment in the nursing and midwifery services to people from the vernacular schools. As soon as we came into power, we announced a scheme whereby we opened the doors of the nursing service and the midwifery service to students qualified in Chinese and Malay schools. The qualifications in general for Pupil Assistant Nurses and Pupil Midwives are very much the same - Form III or the equivalent in any other vernacular schools. It is interesting to note that in all the advertisements the Ministry of Health has put out in relation to applications for Assistant Nurses and Pupil Midwives, we have always stated that the requirements are Form Ill or a Chinese school equivalent of Junior Middle III, or the Malay school equivalent of Darjah VII. I would like to state here, Sir, that most authorities on Malay do not consider that Darjah VII is the equivalent of Form III. Notwithstanding the expert opinion and advice, we have insisted upon inserting "Darjah VII" in all our advertisements, so as to give Malay girls a chance of applying for these particular training posts. The qualifications for Pupil Midwives are exactly the same as those for Assistant Nurses. Up to date, we have received several applications from Malay girls who possess Darjah VII, and they have been taken into the service.

In relation to the racial analysis of the nursing service and midwifery service, I have some figures here: there are at present 33 Malay Staff Midwives, 14 Pupil Midwives. 57 Assistant Nurses. It has been the policy of my Ministry to give priority to all Malay applicants in all the various fields. 4 15 p.m.

During the last Assembly Budget sitting here, my Minister gave an assurance that we would look into the health of the Malays, particularly in the kampongs and the rural areas, and it is with a view to fulfilling this promise that we have paid special attention to Malay applicants so as to enable us to send more Malay nurses, assistant nurses, and midwives into the rural areas to bring medical and health services to the Malay people in the kampongs and the rural areas.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker. Sir, I feel that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health has not replied to my other questions. Who are the people who will recruit these applicants? Is it the Ministry of Health or the Public Service Commission?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: The Public Service Commission recruits all the staff for the public service. But it always seeks the advice of the Ministries concerned as to what qualifications are needed for the filling of the various posts. In this case, we have advised them specifically that Darjah VII is acceptable to us.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, that explanation is quite clear. But I still would like to know this. Yesterday the Prime Minister told me that the Public Service Commission has carried out its work with integrity and justice. But just now the Parliamentary Secretary has told us that the Public Service Commission would get advice from the Ministry of Health in regard to vacant posts in the Ministry. Therefore, how could it be possible for the members of the Public Service Commission to recruit people with Darjah VII when there are other people with better qualifications? For instance, there are quite a good number of people with Senior Cambridge qualifications. Therefore, I cannot see how the opportunity is really open. Perhaps my doubts could be clarified at length by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, perhaps I have not been clearly understood. I only said that with regard to technical matters, the Public Service Commission always seeks the advice of the Ministry that is requiring the staff. In this particular instance, the Ministry of Health is the only competent authority to say what qualifications and what standard of education are required for people performing specialist duties, such as assistant nurses, doctors, pathologists and surgeons. I think it has nothing to do with slurring the Public Service Commission. The Public Service Commission seeks advice on technical points and the Ministry of Health offers such advice.

In reply to the other question concerning the availability of so many people with Senior Cambridge qualification, the answer is that there are two categories of nurses. Nurses in general and assistant nurses. Those people with Senior Cambridge qualification are entitled to and are eligible to apply for the posts as nurses and not assistant nurses. The assistant nurses are a crass of posts created some few years ago to absorb especially the less highly qualified members of the public into the service with, of course, a lower emolument. They are two different types of officers.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand that. I do not wish to pursue this matter any further. But in policy we see that Darjah VII qualification is acceptable, and Form III and the Senior Cambridge qualifications are high qualifications. Therefore, people who wish to go further into the subject of health science, etc. would surely be given opportunities. I do not wish to pursue this matter any further. I merely wish to raise the hope that the matter will be looked into.

The Chairman: I would suggest to Members of the Opposition that if they wish to ask for leave to withdraw their amendment, they should not preface that request with a speech which might require an answer. If that is done, then, of course, I will not pose the Question.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (355) of sub-head 1.

Under Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital, Mr Speaker, there appears this particular item, "Specialists Allowance - $9,000" for the ensuing year. But for the approved Estimates for 1960, the specialists allowance is put down at $50,000. On an examination of the whole Budget, Mr Speaker, there are specialists allowances with regard to other hospitals where the quantum of money voted for the ensuing year remain the same. In this particular instance, the vote is being reduced from $50,000 to $9,000. Could the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health inform the House why it is that a reduction is necessary? Is it because there is no further need for the large number of specialists that used to be at Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member for Farrer Park will look under the Remarks column, he will notice an item "Title changed from Fees to Specialists". I would also refer him to page 222 of the Estimates under sub-head 119. There exists a new item, "Specialist fees for services performed by University of Malaya staff" under Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital. The specialist fees actually increased from $50,000 to $69,000, and the Treasury, on re-examining the Budget before this particular one was presented, felt that fees payable to the University specialists should be entered as a separate item from that being paid to the Government servants, because the specialist fees due to the Government servants come from Government revenue, and the specialist fees for the University specialists are monies collected on behalf of the University by the Hospital. The previous Budget provided only $6,000 for specialist allowances for Government medical officers or specialists within that $50,000 sum. This year, however, it is proposed to appoint the Medical Superintendent of the Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital substantively, and $3,000 has been budgeted, in addition to the $6,000, in case he also holds post-graduate qualifications to qualify for specialist allowances.

Mr Rajah: The point of the question was whether the specialists at Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital were going to be reduced in number, but it would appear from the answer from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health that such specialists would not be reduced. That being so, Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of

Inche Mohd. Ali Bin Alwi: * That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (393) of sub-head 1.

• That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (423) of sub-head 1.

� That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (425) of sub-head

The Chairman: Amendments (6)*, (7) + and (8) � in the name of the Member for Kampong Kembangan are not being moved.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (432) of sub-head 1.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope you will permit me to speak on item (433) ** as well, as it is similar in nature.

**The amendment in respect of item (433) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (433) of sub-head 1.

The Chairman: Yes.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, concerning ambulance drivers and drivers for general purpose, there are altogether four new appointments. I am happy to say, Mr Speaker, that driving is a profession mainly for the Malays in Singapore. Although we say that this is a profession among the Malays, during the time of the colonial regime many drivers were Malays and there were many Europeans and rich towkays and nyonyas employing Malay drivers. But today, I feel, Sir, - if you doubt my word, you can find out from outside this Assembly - there are many Malays, whether they come from the Malay or the Boyanese community, who find it difficult to get these jobs. The population of Singapore is increasing and vacant posts are very scarce. Therefore, to find vacant posts such as these is still difficult. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health could tell us whether today, in order to qualify as drivers, it is necessary for a driver to have a licence which is not only good but he must also know the national language, and so on. I do not know if there are any special qualifications required to recruit drivers. At the moment, it is very difficult for Malays to become drivers.

The Chairman: The Question is, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (432) of sub-head 1". The debate may range over the next amendment*.

*Amendment (10) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (433) of sub-head 1.

4.30 p.m.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, as the Member for Kampong Kembangan has touched upon both the items and as he has asked for the qualifications of drivers, I am obliged here to explain the difference between ambulance drivers and drivers for general purposes. From a very casual perusal of the salary scale, we will be able to tell that drivers for general purposes are on a slightly lower scale than ambulance drivers. The qualifications for drivers for general purposes are the possession of a driving licence, good eyesight, good judgment, ability to exercise his ordinary functions in a proper manner, and also be a member of the Labour Exchange. The ambulance driver, however, is a promotion post, and it is only open to drivers for general purposes.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Will these vacancies be advertised in the papers and appointments effected through the Public Service Commission?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, as soon as the Estimates have been approved by this Assembly, these posts, which are new ones, will be unfrozen and advertised when the need arises.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (10)* has been dealt with. Amendment (11) at page 212 of the Estimates, which is "Fees and Allowances for Private Consultants". Mr Rajah.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 8.

Sir, could the Parliamentary Secretary inform the House what is the necessity to pay private consultants when the Government itself has such a number of specialists and other highly qualified medical officers?

4.34 pm.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, this item is in respect of the Social Hygiene Branch of the Ministry of Health, Middle Road Hospital and Nelson Road Clinic. These two hospitals deal with venereal diseases mostly, and there is a shortage of officers performing the duties of medical officers in these two particular hospitals. As such, private practitioners who have had experience working in these two clinics and who have left the service are invited back to perform the functions of private consultants. They are employed on a sessional basis, being paid $25 per session. At the moment, there are three doctors doing part-time work in Government service of this nature.

Mr Rajah: In view of the explanation, Mr Kandasamy, may I be given leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Kandasamy, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 10*.

*The same amendment stood in the name of Mr A. P. Rajah.

Sir, this particular item has in past years shown a vote of $80,000. As far as I can gather, in 1958, 1959 and even 1960, there was a vote of $80,000. Now for 1961, it is proposed to reduce it to $63,200. I am wondering whether this reduction is due to the fact that the Government anticipates that, because of its family planning drive, there will be less children next year, or is it because the Government feels that there should be less feeding of children?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the reduction is actually based on the actual under-expenditure incurred in 1959. I am quite piqued by the Member for Cairnhill when he suggested that this reduction might be in anticipation of the very effective publicity campaign evinced by the exhibition held a few days ago. I had never dared to expect such a quick reaction. However, if it does occur, I will be most pleased to notice it. However, there is no intention on the part of Government to reduce the distribution of milk powder to the more needy and less unfortunate children of Singapore. This cut is actually based on the actual under-expenditure incurred in 1959. My Ministry is prepared to apply for A.S.V., supplementary provisions, should the sum appearing in the Budget for 1961 be insufficient to meet the demands.

Mr Rajah: Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health has used the expression "effective publicity campaign". I am wondering how he knows straight-away whether his campaign has been effective. Surely, he should be patient and wait for time. Only time can tell whether his campaign has been effective. But, however, Mr Kandasamy, if the reduction in the vote is due to the fact that there has been an under-expenditure for the previous year, surely the more realistic way of doing things is to see that more of it is distributed to more infants rather than treat this like any other item in the Budget where there has been an under-expenditure. That must be the real norm; treat that as the norm.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, on the first point raised by the Member for Farrer Park, I did preface my statement by saying that if the predictions of the Member for Cairnhill came true, I would be most pleased. Actually I did also say that I myself had not expected the effects to be so quick. But then it was at the suggestion of the Member for Cairnhill that I expected such pleasant surprises.

On the second point, I have mentioned that we are fully prepared to apply for A.S.V.s in the event of the vote being insufficient to cover the needs.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, may I have leave to withdraw the amendment?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 87.

Sub-head 87. Mr Kandasamy, reads: "Charges Payable to Public Utility Board for Use of its Nightsoil Pumping Station at Paya Lebar for Disposal of Nightsoil, $51,500". I am wondering, Mr Kandasamy, how these charges become payable to the Public Utility Board for use of its nightsoil pumping station.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Kandasamy. I regret to say that there has been a slight oversight in this particular item in the Estimates. The words "Public Utility Board" should actually read "Sewerage Department of the P.W.D.". The mistake was made because previously this sum was payable to the City Council, and as it was thought that the various utilities of the City Council would be constituted into a Board, it was wrongly entered in anticipation as "Public Utility Board". It should actually read "Sewarage Department of the Public Works Department".

Mr Rajah: In view of that explanation, Sir, may I be given leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Ahmad Jabri bin Mohammad Akib-

*That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of sub-head 104.

The Chairman: I take it that amendment (14)* is not being moved. Dato Abdul Hamid, amendment (15).

Dato Abdul Hamid Bin Haji Jumat: Mr Kandasamy, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $100+.

+The same amendment stood in the name of Mr A.P. Rajah.

Sir, in the debate on the Yang di-Pertuan Negara's speech earlier this year, I had occasion to point out that the rate of child mortality amongst Malays in Singapore was extremely high. The position has not changed since then. The latest issue of the Annual Report of the Medical Department indicates that whilst the infantile mortality rate for Indians and Chinese is 40 and 35 per thousand respectively, the rate for Malays is still 85. I wonder, Sir, if the Ministry of Health would do something about it. Vast sums have been spent by Government on family planning and tuberculosis control in the hope of producing a healthy and vigorous nation. This is another branch of health education which the Ministry could profitably embark upon.

4.45 p.m.

There is another point on this head, Sir, on which I would like to talk. That is the question of post-mortems on Muslim bodies. This is a subject which I am sure most Members of this Assembly are aware of, for many of them have been approached by bereaved Muslim families for help. I am not saying, Sir, that the post-mortem on Muslim bodies, where necessary, should be done away with, but I do say that there is a large section of the Muslim community in Singapore who abhor the very idea of a dead body being dismembered. Today most Muslim countries do conduct post-mortems, but the idea has not caught on yet amongst the Muslims in Singapore. A lead from Government would certainly set the minds of the Muslims at rest.

We have here, Sir, in Singapore a body known as the Mahkhamah Shariah; we have a Chief Kathi and also the Muslim Advisory Board. I wonder, Sir, if these bodies or organisations which are Government - appointed and which understand the issue cannot be persuaded to issue a fetua (ruling) so as to allay the fears of the Muslims in Singapore.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, earlier in the year when the Yang di-Pertuan Negara's speech was debated, I had occasion to assure the Member for Geylang Serai that my Ministry would give the utmost consideration to looking after the health of the Malays and, in particular, would attempt to raise the standard of living and lower the infant mortality rate.

I notice that the Member for Geylang Serai quoted from the Medical Report issued some time ago. Perhaps he might like to tell us the year that the Medical Report refers to, and then we might be able to tell whether the indications in that Report have anything to do with the present circumstances in Singapore. In any case, it is not possible to raise the standard of living or lower the infant mortality rate of any particular section of people in a very quick time. These things have to take time and can only proceed very slowly. Superstitions, habits, customs and religious beliefs are subjects not easily changed and not easily touched upon without very much opposition. However, I would like to take this opportunity to assure the hon. Member once again that the Ministry of Health is paying the utmost attention to the health of the people in Singapore in general, and the Malays in particular.

On the second point of post-mortems, being a doctor myself, I feel somewhat qualified to speak on this subject. We all know that in Singapore the Malays and Chinese abhor post-mortems to a very high degree. The Muslims have their religion on their side and the Government has always been careful when post-mortem examinations are performed on Muslim patients.

There are, in general, two types of post-mortem examinations. The doctor in charge wants to examine a deceased person either because he is required to do so by law or because he wants to study the disease or the process of the disease which led to the death of that particular person; and by acquiring such knowledge, the doctor would be able to prevent or forestall the death of persons with similar symptoms in future. In the first case, the post-mortem is a legal obligation and nothing can obstruct the process of the law. Even so, whenever the Ministry of Health has to perform post-mortems in such cases, my Ministry has always taken pains and care to consult the various important members of the Muslim Advisory Board, the Chief Kathi and the various leading Muslims in the country. After our explanations on the need for such post-mortem examinations, they always indicated that they were sympathetic to the course. Even though the right to perform such a post-mortem examination is legal, we have always sought the advice of all the various leading Muslims in the country.

The second type of post-mortem examination is the one which doctors perform for the benefit of medical knowledge and for medical advance. Sometimes we find quite a lot of difficulties whenever we have to perform these post-mortems on Malays. In such cases, we always speak to the people concerned, and if they refuse to give permission for such examinations, we resort to asking other well-known Muslims to advise them or we try to advise them as best we can. However, if such advice fails to produce any result, we usually never perform any post-mortem examinations on such bodies.

What I would like to impress upon this House is that even though the Government has a full legal right to carry out post-mortem examinations on Muslim bodies, we have never exercised that right indiscriminately, and we have always sought the advice of the leading Muslims in this country to effect such examinations.

Dato Abdul Hamid: Mr Kandasamy, Sir, this is the first time I have heard that post-mortem examinations are performed where there is no legal obligation. Could the Minister assure the House that in future no post-mortem examinations will be performed on Muslim bodies in the second category - where there is no legal obligation?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Sir, the performance of a post-mortem examination is not something to be thought of very lightly. The post-mortem examination itself is expected to help the doctor to better understand the disease and the disease process. There are several diseases which are peculiar to various racial groups, and unless such diseases are studied in greater detail, aided by the performance of post-mortem examinations, it is unlikely that a clearer understanding of the diseases can be obtained. The performance of a post-mortem examination is really in the interest of the people and not in the interest of the doctor, because the risks associated with the performance of postmortem examinations are very great.

Dato Abdul Hamid: Mr Kandasamy, Sir, I quite understand a post-mortem examination of that nature would be of assistance to doctors, but I do not see how it can help the dead. In any case. Sir, I would like to Withdraw my motion but there is another speaker on the same subject.

The Chairman (Mr G. Kandasamy): I am afraid the hon. Member cannot withdraw the amendment. The Member for Farrer Park has not spoken on the amendment yet.

Dato Abdul Hamid: I have not withdrawn yet.

The Chairman: Mr Rajah.

Mr Rajah: Mr Kandasamy, you may remember that when the last Budget was being discussed in this House, I raised a number of questions on the Budget with a view to eliciting information from the Minister to indicate to the House that the staffing position in the Ministry of Health was in such a condition that the facilities the Ministry have to provide to the public would not be provided for at the level which was considered reasonable.

I would like the Minister to inform the House whether since then the staffing position has improved or deteriorated. As far as I can understand, and as far as the talk in the town goes, people believe that the staffing position in our hospitals has not improved; if anything, it has become worse. It is felt that the member of specialists provided for in the various hospitals in Singapore are no longer available to the Government to give specialist advice that is so essential and so necessary in the maintenance of public health, and, what is even more important, in the maintenance of public confidence in the institutions of health which Singapore does provide.

You will remember, Mr Kandasamy, how difficult it was to persuade the people in Singapore some years ago to use the hospital facilities, because there was a fear that if they did go to the hospital they might never come out. Even during the lifetime of the Minister for Culture, that was so and it is even going to be more so if something is not done quickly by the Ministry of Health. There is a growing fear now among the people - more than it existed before - that the facilities of the hospitals are not adequate. I have heard complaints from various people that they do not get attention and care in the hospitals. By "care", I do not mean care at the lower levels, but expert medical care which is required if the patient who goes to the hospital voluntarily and willingly hopes to be cured of the ailment in respect of which he seeks admission.

So, could the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister inform this House whether the staffing position, as far as he is concerned, is satisfactory not only at the mere hospital doctor level but also at the intermediate level as well as the top level, and, what is even more important, at the specialist level.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Sir, I am obliged to the Member for Farrer Park for having broken down the medical officers into various grades so as to enable me to describe in greater detail where the shortage lies.

In so far as the specialists are concerned, during the past year, Government has unfrozen various vacancies and filled them substantively by local appointees. The post of the Obstetrician and Gynaecologist of the Kandang Kerbau Hospital has only very recently been filled. The posts of surgeons, the eye surgeon, the physicians and the orthopaedic surgeons have all been filled recently. Actually, we are in the process of filling the other vacant posts at the moment, and we expect the posts to be substantively filled early next year.

In respect of the junior specialists - what the Member for Farrer Park considers as high-level medical officers - we are very well off, having now the services of the many graduates who have returned from abroad. In fact, in the surgical department, at present there are more junior specialists than any other type of officers.

In respect of medical officers, doctors, who perform the daily chores of the medical service, we are a little short, and we are making arrangements to recruit doctors and medical officers and specialists from Israel and Japan. The arrangements have been under way for some time and we expect results early next year.

So when all these vacancies are filled next year, the Government would not be short at all. In fact, there are only 53 vacancies for doctors in the Ministry of Health and we expect to fill them by next year.

The Chairman: I think it is time to suspend.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

Mr Deputy Speaker: The Assembly is suspended for tea. The debate will be resumed at 5.30 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.00 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Resumption of Debate on Question.

"That the total sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $100."

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

5.31 p.m.

Question again proposed.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Hon. the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health said earlier that if a post-mortem is a requirement of the law, there is nothing they can do about it. I am sorry to disagree with him, although he has always been a very intelligent man, giving very intelligent answers In this case, on the surface of it, it is a very intelligent answer and nothing else could have been the answer. But, unfortunately, I have had experience where I feel that some cases of post-mortems on Muslims could have been avoided if there had been a little bit of reorganisation, and a little bit of pains had been taken to see that instructions were carried out.

I will tell of a case which I know to show what I mean. There was a man who died of T.B. and in his dying state he happened to have blood in his mouth. When the Police saw that, it became a Police case as it might have been foul play. The Police insisted on taking the man to the hospital for a post-mortem the following morning. The post-mortem would be at seven o'clock the following morning, and the doctor at the Tan Tock Seng Hospital, who was treating him and who could have given a certificate to say that the man died of T.B., would not be available until 9 o'clock that morning. A post-mortem then had to be performed; the law had to take its course. If the post-mortem was postponed two hours later, the death certificate could easily have been issued from the Tan Tock Seng Hospital. The man's family came to my house at about two o'clock in the morning and told me all that. I managed to get the doctor out of bed, and he did stop it. Well, that was one case that was stopped. I feel that if a reorganisation could have been implemented and some rearrangements made about the hours of post-mortem and doctors' certificates, then probably several cases of post-mortems on Muslims could have been avoided.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Mountbatten having prefaced her remarks with so much flattery and compliments, I find it difficult to rebut except to congratulate her for her public consciousness in helping this particular Muslim to get an exemption from legal requirements. This, Mr Speaker, Sir, is just one instance to show that the law is always rigid. It is the application of the law that can be relaxed, and not the law itself. So I do not think there is any reorganisation or redrafting of the law necessary, hut a more intelligent application of the law. That, of course, will have to be left to individuals to implement.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am sorry I gave the wrong impression. I do not mean reorganisation of the law. I mean reorganisation of the working hours of the hospitals or the orders of the doctors - whatever it is, he as Parliamentary Secretary should know best - so that this kind of incident where a post-mortem has to be performed on a man just because of the difference in hours does not take place.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, when we were talking of the reorganisation of the hours of work of teachers, I remember the Member for Mountbatten was most stormy in her expressions. May I ask her whether she is advocating that we reorganise the hours of work of the doctors and make them work 24 hours a day?

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Mr Speaker, Sir, no, definitely no. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary knows what I mean - arranging not the number of hours of work of the doctors, but arranging that the post-mortem does not take place two hours before the doctors begin work.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the hours of work of the Post-mortem Department have to be a bit earlier than the hours of work of the doctors, because the doctors, after seeing cases where the patients are alive, often like to have a look at the post-mortem results. So if a post-mortem is being performed at the same time as the doctor begins his work, then he will either have to give up his work and see the post-mortem, or not to see the post-mortem at all.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may come back to the matters which I have raised? The problem which I posed to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health was this: that as a result of the staffing situation in the Ministry, efficiency is running down; and as a result of that, the services which the public have a right to expect are not being provided for. He has informed the House that in certain ladders of the medical profession, the situation seems to be all right from the staffing point of view. But, Mr Speaker, Sir, he has not answered this question: whether he has the number of specialists which he thinks a city like Singapore requires.

The other point, Mr Speaker, Sir, is that in the debate on the Budget last year, it appeared to the House that a number of substantive posts were being held by persons in an acting capacity. From the answers given then, it appeared that most of those appointments were held on an acting basis. Could the Parliamentary Secretary inform the House that that situation no longer prevails, and that these posts are now being filled substantively?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, in reply to the first question, the answer is that most of the posts on the establishment are being filled. It is a fact that we are appointing a few specialists in the service on supernumerary appointments. In answer to the second question, most of the professional officers who were acting during the earlier part of this year have been substantively appointed. There only remain a few professional officers performing administrative duties whose posts remain unfilled. This is because of a ruling in the Establishment that for officers to be appointed higher than Grade G level, it is necessary first to promote them to Superscale Grade G, so that most of the Superscale Grade D and E posts are still held by people who have been recently promoted from Timescale to Superscale Grade G, and they are therefore still acting.

Dato Abdul Hamid: Mr Speaker, Sir, earlier in the debate, the Parliamentary Secretary has said that he is negotiating for the appointment of doctors from overseas, which will include doctors from Israel. I wonder, Sir, whether Government would think again about employing doctors from Israel, since this is one of the sensitive attitudes which have been adopted by certain groups in the Federation of Malaya and also in Singapore.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is not the intention of the Ministry of Health to limit the recruitment of doctors only from Israel. In fact, the Ministry will recruit doctors from any part of the world where doctors are available and where it is known that the available doctors meet the requirements of our very rigid standards in medical practice.

Mr Rajah: Sir, as I understand the Parliamentary Secretary, he has informed the House that he is taking every possible step to recruit specialists, that he has taken steps to make substantive appointments, and that in future he will. continue to see that as many appointments as are made should be made substantively. It is for this simple reason, Mr Speaker, Sir, that if a person is made to hold a post too long in an acting capacity, he tends to lose interest and get frustrated, and a frustrated officer in the higher levels is not a good thing for the service. I hope the Minister will keep that in mind.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is perhaps relevant to note and to mention here that in the 18 months of office of the P.A.P. Government, more substantive appointments have been made in the medical service than in the last five years of the Labour Front Government.

Mr Rajah: There is a simple explanation to that - because there were so many resignations during the P.A.P. Government, and there were none during the previous government!

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, surely the resignations do not pertain to the Superscale officers.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I think the Member for Farrer Park was just shooting a line. He has not the slightest idea and he is unable to produce any evidence to subtantiate that.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, if there was anybody who was shooting a line, it was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health who shot it. I merely held on to it!

The Chairman: Is the Member for Geylang Serai pressing for a vote?

Dato Abdul Hamid: No, Sir, In view of the explanation given, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $41,749,260 for Head 25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 27 -

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 27 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (5) of sub-head 1.

I wish to inquire as to what are the qualifications for the post of Secretary to the City Health Department and whether the post has been filled. If it has been filled, was the post advertised, and did it go through the P.S.C.?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the qualifications for the post of Secretary are either a University degree of a recognised university in Arts, Economics, or Commerce, or qualifications of recognised secretarial and accountancy bodies. Additional qualification of Diploma in Public Administration or legal qualifications are an advantage.

The post is not substantively filled. However, there is an officer who is held against this post and the name of this officer is M. R. Marcus.

5.45 p.m.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, could I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health why the post is not substantively filled?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the post is not substantively filled because there is no suitably qualified candidate available.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, when the P.A.P. took over the City Council in June 1959, we found that due to the process of integration, there was no necessity to have a Secretary to the City Health Department. The Secretary to the Health Department was a University graduate, and because he had no work to do, I transferred him to the Singapore Telephone Board. I believe that lately this post was filled on a temporary basis by an officer. The idea of filling it on a temporary basis was to avoid the Local Government Ordinance which lays down that posts which come under Class IV in the City Council Scheme of Service should go to the P.S.C. I wonder if this is the way to get away from the P.S.C. in order to give a job to this particular officer who happens to be a brother-in-law of a Minister.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, this particular officer, Mr M. R. Marcus, resigned from the service some time last year as a result of intimidation by the previous Mayor of the City Council. After the City Council was transferred to the care of the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister gave an assurance to all those people who had been chased away or frightened away for no reason by the previous Minister for National Development, a chance to return to the service. Mr Marcus is one of the seven Asians and expatriates who returned to the service. He is an experienced man well versed in the functions of the City Council, having been previously appointed as an Assistant Secretary to the Secretariat, Class III, on a salary scale of $740. His temporary appointment carries an all-in salary of $670. Because of the integration of the City Council with the Government, it was felt that the services of such an officer would be valuable to the City Health Department, and it was on that basis that he filled it `in a temporary capacity.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, could the Parliamentary Secretary enlighten us as to how much this particular officer is being paid now? I remember the Parliamentary Secretary said that he as being paid $740 when he left the City Council.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: I did mention, Mr Speaker, Sir, that he is now in receipt of an all-in salary of $670 per month.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, you will recall that when I spoke, I think it was two days ago, I mentioned certain characters who were given to distorting truths-

The Chairman: Order. I have indicated that we are trying to keep away from personalities as much as we can, although certain personalities do creep in. Let us try to keep away from them if we can.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: May I come straight to the point, Mr Speaker? In his statement the Member for Hong Lim did say that this officer who has been re-engaged was a brother-in-law of a Minister, Sir, this technique is very well known and it has been widely used by a former Senator in the United States, the infamous Senator Macarthy. I merely wish to draw attention to the fact that the Member for Hong Lim seems to be an assiduous disciple of this person.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am the Minister who has been named. I am known to have quite a lot of friends and foes in this Assembly, but there is one thing that nobody can accuse me of, and that is nepotism. I do not believe in it. I have never subscribed to it. If it is of any interest to anybody in this Assembly, I can say that I have brothers in the City Council, and none of them will ever be promoted at any suggestion from me. You can be quite sure of that. As for the Member for Hong Lim, he is used to this sort of thing. I am not used to it. It is against my very nature, my temperament. I do not believe in the Batu Pahatisation or the Byrnisation of civil servants of the City Council. I do not believe in all those things. Now I have also been accused in this Assembly by the same Member of even being a party to the giving away of public contracts

The Chairman: Order. I think that speech is going further and further away from the subject we are touching on. It is, of course, a matter for regret that the Chair did not get up quick enough to stop these personalities, which I have tried to avoid from the very beginning. I ask the Member for Hong Lim to refrain from any further personalities.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, there is one further point. The officer concerned has been named. I can assure this House that when it was necessary for me to take a stand even against the brothers of this officer when I thought that their conduct was disreputable, I did so in public and made my position very clear as far as his brothers were concerned. I am often touchy by nature and I have a temper. But I can assure this House that, as far as I am concerned and as long as I am what I am, this will never happen. Nepotism is not a thing that I ever subscribe to.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I was interested in the statement which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health made. He said that this particular person who had been reengaged after the Prime Minister had taken over the Ministry had left the City Council service because he had been frightened into leaving it. This is a very interesting point which he made - that he was taken back into the service because he had been frightened away. Mr Speaker, Sir, I have heard that other officers were also frightened away. Whether that is true or not I cannot say. But a number of them have told me that they were frightened away. Now I ask the Parliamentary Secretary this question. If those other officers who had been frightened away were to reapply to him for reinstatement, would he consider their cases as sympathetically as he had considered this case?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker. Sir, I believe that when the Prime Minister took over the City Council from the previous Minister for National Development, he offered all those who had been frightened away by the ex-Minister a chance of re-employment. I believe that opportunity was made available to all those who had left the service for that reason alone.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, in any Ministry or under any reign, there are always officers who have been frightened away for some reason or other.

Mr Rajaratnam: What reason can there be?

The Chairman: Order.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: For instance, there are officers who have resigned from every Ministry in the Government. Officers had resigned from the City Council during the time of the Member for Farrer Park. Officers had resigned during my time. But in the case of this particular officer, it happened that he did not resign during the vacuum period when the Member for Geylang Serai, who was then the Minister, took over the City Council; and this particular officer resigned because he took an active part in politics. Mr Speaker, Sir, here is a book produced by the Ministry of Culture called "Socialism". It has been written under the name of this particular officer:- "Resigned w.e.f. [with effect from] the 2nd of June, l959" - before the P.A.P. took over the City Council on 5th June, 1959, and during the time when I was not the Mayor of the City Council. I remember that I resigned some time during the middle of April. Why did he resign? Everybody who has taken an interest in City Council matters should know. He was re-engaged not in October 1959, when the Prime Minister took over the City Council, but on 30th July, 1960. So, Mr Speaker, Sir, it took him more than a year to tighten up his belt, put his hand over his heart to see that there was no more throbbing, boost up his courage, and then approach the Prime Minister, saying, "Would you please take me back?" Mr Speaker, Sir, is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health aware that the City Health Department has protested against the appointment of this particular officer?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: I am not aware that the City Health Department has protested against the employment of this particular officer. I am only aware that the City Health Department felt that it would be welcome to have an officer holding that post, in view of the integration of the Department with the Government.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: The Member for Hong Lim gave some figures, and I have now reached the stage where I suspect any factual information coming from that source. He said that this officer took more than a year to balance in his mind whether or not he should return to this post. Can I have details when he was invited to return to his post, and when that decision was made?

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have just now produced the fact from signed this book called "The Socialist Solution" - perhaps to the unemployment problem.

`Assistant Secretary, Secretariat, resigned from 2-6-59; Reappointed as temporary officer from 30th July, 1960.'

Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand there was a protest by the A.U.P.E. Branch of the City Health Department against this appointment to the effect that this post, if it needs to be filled, should be circularised and/or advertised, so that persons who have experience in the Health Department, with the same qualifications as this officer, could apply. I understand this particular officer did not suit the qualifications required for the post of Secretary to the City Health Department, namely, a university degree. The A.U.P.E. Branch of the City Health Department, I believe, protested against this appointment on the grounds that the officer was not qualified; that he did not go to the P.S.C.; that serving officers were not given a chance; and that the reply to the A.U.P.E. Branch of the City Health Department was drafted by the Secretary-General of the A.U.P.E.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I did not get a satisfactory reply to my question. The person resigned in June 1959 and he was appointed in July 1960, or June 1960. That is one year. But that is not the interval of time that is relevant. The interval of time that is relevant is when he was given the opportunity to return. That was the time. I would have thought that these are elementary things, Mr Speaker.

6.00 p.m.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would not know when each particular officer was offered the opportunity to come back. I thought that if as the Prime Minister had said that he had given a general offer to those City Council officers who had been frightened by the Mayor (particularly such type of officers who were frightened even when I was not in control), and he must be very frightened if I was in control of the City Council - I would not know whether the Prime Minister, when he took over the City Council, gave a general amnesty to these officers, asking them to come back at any time they wanted, and writing to them every day, serving them reminders. I am not in a position to know.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, he does not know when they were invited and he makes his statement of fact - an alleged statement of facts - that the man weighed the matter in his mind for one year. I suggest that this is absolutely typical of the way in which the Member for Hong Lim makes his reckless mis-statements of fact. Sir, I do not want to pursue this any further, but I just want to draw attention to the very lighthearted approach of the Member for Hong Lim when he comes to getting his facts straight.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, according to the logic of the Minister for Finance, there might still be officers coming back in 1962 and 1963 - officers not frightened by the Member for Hong Lim, but perhaps officers frightened by the Member for Farrer Park in 1950, when he was in charge of the City Council.

Dr Goh Keng Swee rose -

The Chairman: On a point of order?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: On a point of order, Sir. May I know what relevance that has to the point he was making? I am only-

The Chairman: Order. The difficulty is for the Chair, of course, to draw the line somewhere. When the hon. Member for Hong Lim touches on details of a particular officer, I myself cannot see of what interest that is to this Committee of Supply. But when he touches on the general principle of the post to be filled, then, of course, he is very relevant.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, the principle is this, that such posts should be filled substantively. A permanent post in the first place should not be filled by a temporary appointment. The technique of a temporary appointment is to by-pass the P.S.C. Mr Speaker, Sir, for instance, in the case of this particular officer. He has taken away his Provident Fund from the City Council and is not qualified for the post. As I understand it, there are about 30 or 40 scholars of Nanyang University who graduated last year and who are still unemployed. The salary which is paid to this particular officer will be enough to engage three Nanyang graduates. Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope the Government will stop this type of appointment so that other persons will be given a chance.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I must again point out the irrelevancy of the Member for Hong Lim in bringing in Nanyang University graduates. I have stated just now that this person is filling this post and is held against it because of the integration that is going on between the Government and the City Council, and because an officer with his experience is of value in the process of integration. I cannot see how a Nanyang graduate can perform functions where his lack of experience in this particular field is the operative factor.

Mr Rajah: Sir, may I come to the only point that interests me in this debate? It is the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health that all those persons who had been frightened away by the former Mayor, the present Member for Hong Lim, have been offered re-appointments. I know of specific cases where persons have left because of the previous Mayor and who have not been offered reemployment. Mr Speaker, Sir, I will bring the names of these persons to the specific notice of the Minister, and perhaps he might be able to help them.

The Chairman: Not the members of the staff who resigned in 1950?

Mr Rajah: Perhaps the Member for Hong Lim might assist the Parliamentary Secretary in this connection.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, with respect to the Member for Farrer Park, I do not think I need any support or assistance from the Member for Hong Lim. I committed a slight error of omission when making my statement just now. I should have said all officers who had been chased away by the ex-Minister for National Development and who could perform useful functions are being invited to come back to the service. They are the people who could perform useful functions for the Government.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not want to name this particular officer, but I will send his name and the office he was holding to the Parliamentary Secretary, and I am sure he will agree with me that he is an essential person in the service of the city.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to differ with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health about this officer who performs so-called useful functions in the City Health Department. As a matter of fact, what happened is this. When the Prime Minister, I understand, was approached to give this officer a job, he was posted to be Deputy Registrar of Vehicles.

The Chairman: I think I must stop the debate on this officer who has been appointed. I think we should go on to the principle. Does the Parliamentary Secretary wish to say anything further on the principle?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Yes, Mr Speaker, I just want to stress my point that this particular officer is held against this particular post not because of his usefulness in the Ministry of Health, or the City Health Office, but because of his experience in the City Council and because it is deemed that he would be useful in the integration of the City Council with the Health Department of the Government. I think I have made this statement four times already.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 27 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (127) of sub-head 1.*

*The same amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohamed Ali bin Alwi.

I wish to inquire from the Parl. Sec, to the

Minister for Health as to the qualifications laid down for the post of Assistant Hawkers Inspectors.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the qualifications for Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors are Std. VIII or Form III pass in English, Junior Middle School Certificate in Chinese, Darjah VII in Malay, or Tamil Std. VII.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand that the City Health Department recently engaged 25 Assistant Hawkers Inspectors. I wish to inquire from the Parl. Sec. to the Minister for Health whether all the 25 Assistant Hawkers Inspectors fit those qualifications?

The Chairman: His designation is Parliamentary Secretary.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, each and every one of the Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors is properly qualified.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, I have here a copy of the Hansard, col. 614, Vol. 13, No. 9 (21st September. 1960). It was an oral answer to a question by a Member, asking about the Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors employed by the City Council. The question was this:

`Inche Mohamed Ali bin Aiwi asked the Prime Minister how many Temporary Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors were employed by the City Council as at 31st August, 1960: how many of them were appointed from among former serving officers of the City Council, and how many passed (a) English Standard Eight, (b) Chinese Junior Middle, (c) Malay Standard Seven, and (d) an equivalent standard in Tamil.'.

The reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister was this:

`There were 25 Temporary Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors employed by the City Council as at 31st August, 1960. None of these were from among former serving officers. Seven have passed English' Standard VIII. Four have passed Chinese Junior Middle, and one has passed Malay Standard VII. None has passed the equivalent standard in Tamil. In addition to the above, three possess the Cambridge School Certificate, and nine possess the Chinese Senior Middle Certificate - these being higher qualifications than those referred to by the Member for the Southern Islands.'.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have done a bit of addition and I found that the total of those appointees who do satisfy the qualifications just now given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health is only 24. I see one missing. Could the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health explain the missing link?

The Chairman: The Member's arithmetic is correct. Dr Sheng, there is one missing.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I shall undertake to provide the answer to the Member for Hong Lim as soon as I have the explanation myself.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand the missing link was provided by one who has driven the Prime Minister. He is one of the applicants, I believe, who is not qualified. He has not even a Chinese primary school certificate. That provides the key to the missing link. Mr Speaker. Sir, I understand that the Health Department rejected this applicant, although it was suggested to them that this person is of great importance. It is laid down that the Hawkers Inspectors must carry out certain duties provided them by law. One of these duties is to be able to enforce the Hawkers and Markets bylaws made under the Municipal Ordinance (Cap.133). He cannot be a semi-illiterate person. He cannot be a person who is not qualified. That is why it is insisted that persons must have certain educational qualifications. Mr Speaker, Sir, I believe that an imperial edict was decreed and that this particular officer was thus put into the City Health Department.

6.15 p.m.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I ask the House to treat the allegations made by the Member for Hong Lim with very great reservation? He has repeatedly demonstrated that be is incapable of distinguishing fact from untruth, truth from fantasy. I think I have made the point very clear.

Sir, I just came in a moment ago and I did seem to hear that the Prime Minister's driver was appointed to some high office. I am not sure whether the Member for Hong Lim was referring to the official driver attached to the Prime Minister's Department. He has live chauffeurs provided in the Estimates. Or was the hon. Member referring to the private chauffeur of the Prime Minister? I just want to clear a few points.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Finance knows as much as I do the particular person who used to drive the Prime Minister in a car. I do not want to mention his name, but this particular person is a Chinese. He is a P.A.P. member and a good friend of the Minister.

What I am trying to point out is that there are two types of law as far as the Singapore Government is concerned. I am trying to prove the fact that one type is the judicial or quasi-judicial organisation.

The Chairman: Order. I do not think the Committee of Supply should be worried with that dissertation. I think what the Committee of Supply would be interested in is to be quite certain - I suppose the Member for Hong Lim is quite certain in his mind - that there is an officer who has been appointed substantively to this post and who does not possess the qualifications. And the onus, of course, is on the Member himself.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: The Member for Hong Lim seems to be able to know of what is not in my knowledge. I am not aware at all that the Prime Minister had a chauffeur.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have undertaken to give the facts to the Member for Hong Lim, and if that is the only thing that he is asking for, I think he has been adequately answered.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to seek further clarification from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health concerning the 25 Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors. I wonder whether it is true or not that the applicants for these posts at that time were interviewed by Assemblymen from the Government side. At that time the integration of the City Council was not yet implemented. From what I know, Mr Speaker, Sir, when it came to the turn of a Malay to appear for the interview, it was conducted in Malay, but when a Tamil applicant was interviewed, the interview was not conducted in Tamil. I would like to know whether this is true and I hope that the authorities concerned can give me a reply.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member for Kampong Kembangan is asking whether the Malay candidates were interviewed in Malay and, if so, why the Tamil candidates were not interviewed in Tamil, I think the answer is very straightforward and simple. If I could speak Malay as well as the hon. Member can, I would be now speaking in Malay because Malay is the national language.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary says that Malay is the national language. But will Malay be the national language? Sir, I would like to know whether the Assemblymen who interviewed the candidates for the posts had a sufficient knowledge of Malay or spoke Malay of a standard that is recognised by the Ministry of Education.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development (Inche Yaacob bin Mohamed): (In Malay): Sir, I do not wish to speak at length, but I would like to draw attention to that part of the speech of the hon. Member when he asked whether Malay will be the national language. It means that it is not so yet. But we have declared that Malay is the national language. Perhaps the Member for Kampong Kembangan is under a misapprehension as regards the difference in interpretation between official language and national language.

The Chairman: We are not debating the national language now.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, if it is true, as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development said just now, that Malay is now the national language, why was only one of the 25 applicants who passed Malay Standard VII accepted?

The Chairman: Before this debate gets out of hand, I think the question posed by the Member for Kampong Kembangan, if I am not wrong, is whether on not applicants were interviewed by members of the City Council staff who could speak Malay. I think that is all that has been asked. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health would like to answer that.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, as I have said, whenever possible we always prefer to speak in the national language. Surely the right to speak in the national language is not dependent upon the qualification one gets from the Ministry of Education or from anybody else.

The Chairman: Perhaps the Member for Kampong Kembangan would like to repeat his question?

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): I would like to know whether the Assemblymen who conducted the interview were conversant with the Malay language. The Local Government Ordinance and the Ordinances relating to hawkers, markets, and so on, have not yet been translated into Malay. If that was how the candidates were examined, I feel that the Assemblymen who conducted the interview were out of place. This is the question I posed just now.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the interview was conducted by the Acting Superintendent of the Markets and Hawkers Department and he was provided with interpreters whenever it was necessary.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am still not satisfied with the reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health. He said that the interview was conducted by the Acting Superintendent of the Markets and Hawkers Department, but I am told that P.A.P. Assemblymen took part in the interview. It is fortunate now that integration is in process and it is possible that this will not happen again in future. I am really disappointed, Sir, to learn that only one of the 25 candidates who passed Malay Standard VII was accepted to fill one of the posts of Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors. I would like to know whether the holders of the posts of Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors with the necessary Malay qualification are members of the People's Action Party.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, there are, in fact, two Malays in the Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectorate: one is qualified in Malay Darjah VII and the other is qualified in English.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Kampong Kembangan repeatedly maintains that this interview was conducted by Assemblymen. I think the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health should address himself on that particular aspect.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not aware that the interview was conducted by Assemblymen.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Sir, if the Parliamentary Secretary is not aware that Assemblymen conducted the interview, who then on the Government side can give a clear reply?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Sir, when I say that I am unaware, I say so on behalf of the Government.

Mr Rajah: Sir, if the statement then is that the Government is unaware that such an interview did take place, is the Government aware that P.A.P. Assemblymen ever interviewed candidates for posts?

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: In so far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, the answer is that no Assemblyman has interviewed any candidates for posts. I am only answerable for the Ministry of Health and I am sure the other Ministers will give the same answer as I have given.

Mr Rajah: I only asked that question because the Parliamentary Secretary did say that he was speaking for the Government. That was what induced me to ask him that question. The answer, of course, is now limited to the Ministry of Health and so the question is still open in so far as the other Ministries are concerned.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have just come in and listened to the tail-end of the argument. If, as the Member for Farrer Park and the Member for Kampong Kembangan have said, there was a P.A.P. Assemblyman in the Committee interviewing applicants for the posts of Assistant Markets and Hawkers Inspectors. I give an assurance to the House that I will look into the matter.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

6.30 p.m.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head 27 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 183.

Sir, it would appear that this amendment of mine is the last one on City Council Health and is in respect of "Cleansing". Sir, many people not only citizens but visitors too who move around in Singapore have occasion to remark that the disposal of refuse leaves much to be desired, and the offence is mostly committed in the markets. No doubt the Minister will say that there are dustbins provided in the markets and that these dustbins should be the receptacles for the refuse. But unfortunately that is not so. The refuse is just thrown anyhow on the road, and sometimes swept into a heap, and any passer-by will find it most obnoxious.

Sir, in the debate on the amendment that has just been disposed of there was a suggestion that in regard to Assistant Markets Inspectors there was a missing link. But in regard to the Cleansing Department, Sir, I think there are the missing dustbins! Hon. Members will remember that at the time of the great Mayor of the City Council, they presented a wonderful sight to the people of Singapore, and to me too, because I had an aluminium dustbin placed by the lamp-post near my house. I was told that all these dustbins had disappeared. I would not believe it, and so I went round certain parts of Singapore and I found that it was true - they had disappeared. Would the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health be good enough to explain away the missing dustbins?

The Chairman: Item (7): are they called "Street bins" by any chance? Is the hon. Member referring to street bins or dustbins?

Tan Lim Yew Hock: Whatever bins they are, Sir, they are for cleansing.

The Chairman: I see that item (7) is "Street bins - for replacement". So that perhaps is the missing link. The Question is, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 27 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 183."

Dr Goh Keng Swee: These missing aluminium dustbins. Mr Speaker, Sir, I would have thought that it would be for another Member of the Opposition to answer.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Is the Minister now suggesting that there is no such thing as "collective responsibility"?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, I would just like to say that it is the function of the Government, in particular the Ministry of Health, to provide all facilities for the removal of rubbish, and therefore the previous Health Department of the City Council has provided the dustbins. As to why the dustbins and other "has-beens" have disappeared from the scene, we cannot be responsible. In fact, if Members of the House would wish to know, I could also inform them that I had also come across manholes whose covers had been stolen. They had been stolen for scrap-iron, and to stop this petty pilfering, the manhole covers have now been made in concrete. However, it is rather unfair of the Member for Cairnhill to place the blame for his missing dustbin upon the steps of the Government.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I was just asking for some detective to explain away the missing dustbins. I have not accused the Government of stealing the dustbins and putting them somewhere else. Surely, Sir, the City Council had spent a lot of money on these aluminium dustbins. They were a beautiful sight at that time. They cost a lot of money! I hope the Government would tell us how much money was spent on them - they were paid for out of public funds. It is definitely the responsibility of the Government to see to it that public funds are not squandered in that way.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, let us have none of this mock anger! Coming down to the tone which sparked off this whole thing, may I ask the Member for Cairnhill what happened to the dustbin that was in front of his house?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: All I can say is that I did not steal it; in fact, it was not worth stealing! I would like to see it there, because when it is there, I always have something to look at and say, "Ah, this is one of the indiscretions of the City Council."

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Was it a dustbin or a "has-been"?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Sir, I would just like to ask the Member for Cairnhill whether he has looked for it under his house!

The Chairman: Let us be a little more serious, shall we?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Let us get down to a more serious tone. The cost of the dustbins was borne out of public funds. There was great publicity given to them. I do not know how many hundreds of thousands of dollars had been spent on them. And to suggest that anyone could go and pinch a dustbin - that it is quite all right; it is free for all - is totally wrong. Surely the Government should be more watchful-

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Over your dustbin!

The Chairman: Order.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: - over the expenditure and over the properties of the City Council.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, let us get the facts right. When these aluminium dustbins were put all over Singapore, one Member of the Opposition was the Mayor and another Member was the Chief Minister. Why on earth should we be held responsible for these things?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, if the Minister wants facts, let us be more factual. When the present Member of the Opposition was the Mayor, he was a PAP. Mayor. He was acclaimed as a great hero of the P.A.P. And if the P.A.P. now say that what the P.A.P. Mayor did is not their responsibility, then I think, in due course, the P.A.P. would say. "What this Government did is not our responsibility."

Dr Toh Chin Chye: At that time the Member for Cairnhill was the Chief Minister, and he was responsible for the Police. And therefore it was his job to put the police on to look for his dustbin.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, may I say this: that the dustbins were taken away after the P.A.P. came into power?

The Chairman: We are wandering away really from the principle of this debate. The item is "For replacement", and the Member for Cairnhill wants to find out whether these replacements are replacements for the dustbins. I think that is all there is to it.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: The sum quoted in the Estimates is for replacement of the dustbins. They are, in fact, revoted from the City Council Estimates. The relevant section of the City Council Estimates is available, if the Member for Cairnhill wishes to have the information.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I have no objection to this vote for replacement. Now that the City Council is integrated with the Government, may I ask the Government to see to it that these street bins are no longer pinched?

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, one of the more spectacular doings of the ex-Mayor was to place street bins on street lamp-posts. Whether the Mayor did it on or against the advice of his officers, only the Mayor himself will know. But I always felt, when I walked along the streets of Singapore and saw these street bins on the lamp-posts, that that was a mistake, because they could so easily be pinched. I only mention that, Sir, because of this reason: is the present Government, which is proposing to replace these street bins, going to do the same thing again by making aluminium bins and placing them against lamp-posts? This will merely induce and invite people to steal them.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, may I beg leave to withdraw this amendment, especially when the missing bins are still missing!

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $15,147,530 for Head 27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 28 -

The Chairman: There is an amendment in the names of Mr Rajah and Mrs Seow on "Personal Secretary (Political)". Mrs Seow has touched on the general principles, and I take it that Mr Rajah will now speak on the incumbent.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head 28 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of sub-head 1.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not wish to touch upon the principle involved in employing Political Secretaries in any particular Ministry, because that has already been dealt with. What I wish to speak upon this evening on this particular amendment is the particular incumbent of this post - whether in the circumstances he is peculiarly suited to help our very brilliant Minister for Finance. The particular incumbent of this post, if I understand the position correctly, is Mr Lim Chin Siong. I understand he is a very able trade unionist, and in his line there could be none better - so I am told.

As far as I can make out, none of the functions of the Minister for Finance is connected with trade union disputes or in negotiating matters relating to trade union disputes. That is left in the able hands of the Minister for Labour and Law. Now, although I do not agree with the principle of the employment of Political Secretaries, the Government having accepted them on the basis that the persons are there because of their peculiar background and virtues, and that they will be able to assist the Minister in matters where the Minister himself might not be able to reach out to the people, that is a possible basis for employment, and one must concede that that is a possible basis for employment. Accepting that basis, one must examine whether the present incumbent of that post conforms to that basis. I am suggesting to the Hon. the Minister for Finance that this particular incumbent does not fit into the bill at all. Sometime ago the Member for Cairnhill, I think it was yesterday, Sir, said that this particular officer was never in the Ministry of Finance but was always frequenting the corridors of the Labour Court and the Ministry of Labour and Law. In those circumstances, I ask the Minister whether he is a fit and proper person to continue to hold this post.

6.45 p.m.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker. Sir, I was not present in the House when unkind words were said about my Personal Secretary (Political). Had I been here I would have rushed to the defence of this bright young man. I can assure the Member for Farrer Park that he is very fitted for this post. There seems to be a misunderstanding, namely, that whoever holds that post should be an economist. I think that was the point made by the Member for Cairnhill.

Tan Lim Yew Hock: No.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Yes, if the reports I read in the papers are accurate. But if we had wanted economists, we would have engaged them from the civil service, and in my Ministry we have several outstanding men in this field. As for his occasional absences from the Ministry, that is only to be expected. It is his duty to be in touch with the masses, and if he spends all his time in his office, I would have grave doubts whether he had been performing his duties as rightly as he should.

Mr Rajah: Sir, "in touch with the masses" - I will take up where the Minister for Finance left off. In touch with the masses on what matter? Is it on finance, on matters related to his particular Ministry? Shall we examine the Ministry of Finance? Head 28- Ministry of Finance; Head 29- Charge on Account of the Public Debt. It might be a public burden, but how does Mr Lim Chin Siong fit into the picture of conveying to the masses the great burdens the Minister for Finance bears on the Charge on Account of the Public Debt? What kind of publicity, what kind of groundwork does this gentleman do which the Minister himself, with the able assistance of the Minister for Culture, cannot do? The next item, Sir, is "Pensions, Retirement Allowances, Gratuities, etc." I cannot see how this gentleman fits into this particular Head. Head 31 - "Contributions and Charitable Allowances". I do not see how he fits in. Head 32- I do not see how he fits in the Accountant-General. His department deals with figures. That is where you sit at your table and work at them, not in the field. Head 33- Customs and Excise. I do not see how he comes into Customs and Excise. Exchange Control. Imports and Exports Control and Registration, Inland Revenue, Statistics, Supplies, and Timber Office. Now I ask the Minister for Finance not to shoot a line. He has asked me not to shoot a line. Might I. with equal respect, ask him not to shoot a line?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: The Member for Farrer Park is forgetting that my Personal Secretary (Political) is a man of great versatility.

Mr Rajah: Sir, he may be a man of great versatility, but I can see that he is not of much utility to the Minister for Finance.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I suspect, Mr Speaker, Sir, that the Member for Farrer Park is trying to draw out what type of political advice I get from my Personal Secretary (Political). I can assure him, Mr Speaker, that I have not the slightest intention of satisfying his curiosity. These are matters of grave importance and are State secrets.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, while I can understand that the kind of advice the Political Secretary gives to the Minister for Finance is a State secret, I would like to say this. He says that I have said unkind things about his Political Secretary in his absence. I said the same thing during the debate on Yang di-Pertuan Negara's speech. The Minister for Finance was there when I said those things, and he did not stand up to defend his Political Secretary as he is now trying to defend him. I said, and I repeat it here, since he was not here yesterday, that this Political Secretary of his and he do not see eye to eye on a number of things. They do not even see each other. I say this in all sincerity in this House: they do not see eye to eye with each other, nor do they want to see each other; and yet the Minister says that his Political Secretary is a man of great versatility. We all know. Sir, the versatility of his Political Secretary. But I hope that his versatility will not include an element of his political commissarship of the Minister for Finance.

Mr Rajaratnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, as I understand it, what they are now reconciled to is that it is very necessary for Ministers to have Political Secretaries, but that in the choice of certain Political Secretaries, they should take the advice of Members opposite. Certainly, Sir, the best judge of who is to advice whom is the Minister concerned, and the contention that this particular Political Secretary is not qualified in economic matters is not much to the point, because I see later on that some of the hon. Members opposite, who are by no means economists, are going to delve into subjects in which they are probably not as fully qualified as the Minister for Finance is. In choosing a Political Secretary, we are not interested in the economic knowledge that that particular person might have. Though I might mention that I did see this particular Political Secretary one day with a book on elementary economics, which does show that he has ambitions at least of following what is, being done in his particular Ministry. But the purpose of all Political Secretaries is to sense the political atmosphere prevailing at a particular time, and the fact that this particular Political Secretary is a trade unionist with some experience, as .the former Chief Minister has had ample opportunity to know, is of some importance. Because of his political knowledge, he provides the Minister concerned and the Ministers generally with data. To assess the political situation, to that extent he plays a useful part. But it does not mean that when a Political Secretary does not quite see eye to eye with the Minister in any particular matter, that itself indicates that he is of no particular use. The fact that he is a trade unionist is of some relevance, because, if you will remember, about a few weeks ago the Minister for Finance did put forward a memorandum showing how essential it is for the trade unions to be able to play their part in helping the Government as a whole to carry through its economic plans. So the fact that this particular Political Secretary has some knowledge of, and some contact with, the trade union movement as a whole is a valuable asset in helping the Government to carry through its economic plans.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, it would appear that because I say that the Minister for Finance does not see eye to eye and does not even see face to face with his Political Secretary, it is left to the Minister for Culture to come and say that they do. So long as he does not reply and so long as the denial does not come from him, I would like to submit, Sir, that it is true. He says that this particular Political Secretary is a man who has been of great use to the Minister for Finance. He is a trade unionist, and then he brings in the question of the Minister for Finance having sent a memorandum to the T.U.C. on the industrialisation programme of the Government, and is seeking the views and comments of the T.U C. I respectfully submit. Sir, that that is all eye-wash. If that trade unionist is really a Political Secretary, surely he could have consulted the Political Secretary on his views, and the views of the other Political Secretaries who are trade unionists and who, at the same time, are Assistant Secretaries in the T U.C. Why cannot they consult them in the quiet of their rooms and say, `Look, we are going to do this. What is your view?' Instead of which, having a Political Secretary who is to advise him on the political implications of the plan in so far as the trade unionists are concerned, he sent it to the T.U.C. and then the Political Secretaries in the office of the T.U.C. send their reply back to him. What kind of Political Secretary is that?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker. Sir, I find this altogether too tedious. If the hon. Member for Cairnhill cannot understand how these matters are sorted out between ourselves and the T.U.C., then I will not attempt to enlighten him. He says that I do not see eye to eye with my Political Secretary; I do not see eye to eye with my Parliamentary Secretary; I do not see eye to eye with my colleagues on many points. It is inevitable. So may I suggest, Mr Speaker, Sir, that since so many words have been wasted on this topic, we pass on to more enlightening subjects?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, the passing on to more enlightened subjects is, of course, left to the Opposition. Sir, when the Prime Minister was here yesterday, he did say, on the subject of Political Secretaries, that regarding things that are of a serious and important character - since the Minister for Finance was not here yesterday - there are a lot of things that are best left unsaid; and if he agrees that there are a lot of things that are best left unsaid, then I am prepared to agree with him., There is no need to say, let us not bring this subject up, because it is rather embarrassing to him to have to defend something which he is not convinced he is prepared to defend.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I am not at all embarrassed, Mr Speaker, Sir, but utterly bored.

Mr Rajah: Sir, may I say something about what the Minister for Culture has said? He sought to give the impression to the House that we, on the Opposition, have accepted the appointment of Political Secretaries. We have not accepted that at all. You may remember that I raised this question in the first instance, and I am still not satisfied that these appointments are required. I agree with the Hon. the Prime Minister that once the matter has been debated and voted upon, it need not be raised from year to year. But the fact remains that we are opposed to the appointment of Political Secretaries. What we are now debating, Mr Speaker, Sir, is this - is this particular incumbent suited for this particular post? The Minister for Finance says that he is bored because we are querying that. He is not making out a good case at all. In fact, if any case is being made at all, it is being made out by the Minister for Culture and not by the Minister for Finance. All he says is this, "Let us pass on to something more interesting." Does he find this topic so distasteful that he wants to leave it in a hurry and go on to something else? I would have thought that if he had a suitable appointee in this post, he would have got up and defended him in the most vigorous manner that he is capable of. But since he is not defending him at all, I must naturally assume that there are things which he himself does not want to say, as the Prime Minister has said, and, therefore, he wants to hurry on to some other topic.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, there are two reasons why I ask them to move on to new pastures. First, nothing new has been turned up by the Opposition, and, second, I have a slight stomachache!

The Chairman: That, of course, does not redound to the dignity of the Assembly!

7.00 p.m.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, it would appear that the Minister for Finance is bored when the Opposition is trying to explain to the Government that the Government should see to it that public funds are spent for the good of the people and not for political debts.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The following amendment stood in the name of Tun Lim Yew Hock-

*That the sum to be allocated for Head 28 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (59) of sub-head 1.

The Chairman: Amendment (2)* is at page 265 of the Estimates-Head of Political Study Centre. Tun Lim?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mrs Seow will move it, Sir.

The Chairman: I was just wondering whether this item is connected with amendment (8)+ which is at page 273 of the Estimates. That is a query by Mr Rajah - Political Study Centre, sub-head 63.

+Amendment (8) reads as follows:-

That the sum to be allocated for Head 28 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 63.

Mr Rajah: It could be dealt with together.

The Chairman: Mrs Seow then.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 28 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (59) of sub-head 1.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I wonder whether the Minister for Finance would be kind enough to tell us for whom the Political Study Centre has been run or organised; what type of political studies take place there; whom the course benefits - the students or the State?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: For whom -

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Does he want me to repeat it? For whom this centre has been organised? What type of political studies take place there? Who benefits by the course - the students or the State - and how do they benefit from it?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: As to whom the Political Study Centre has been organised for, the answer is -

The Chairman: I am afraid something has gone wrong with the recording system and the Simultaneous Interpretation system. Shall we suspend for 10 minutes?

Hon. Members indicated assent.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

Mr Speaker: I shall take the Chair again at 7.20 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 7.10 p.m. Sitting resumed at 7.24 p.m.

Mr Speaker: Order. I understand that although the recording system appears to be working now, it is not as satisfactory as the technicians would like it to be.

If there is no dissentient voice, perhaps it would be convenient to move the adjournment.