MAIN ESTIMATES, 1962 (Cont.)

Head 12-

The Chairman: Amendment (1)*. Is Mr Leong Keng Seng moving?

*Amendment (1) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 12 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1.

Mr Leong Keng Seng (Serangoon Gardens): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not moving. Since this item was touched upon yesterday, therefore it is not necessary for me to raise it again today.

The Chairman: That would apply to amendment (2)+ as well. Amendment (3) then. Mr Rajah.

+Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 12 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 1.

Mr A. P. Rajah (Farrer Park): I am not moving it. The Member for Cairnhill will move it.

The Chairman: Tun Lim Yew Hock.

Tun Lim Yew Hock (Cairnhill): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 12 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 1.++

++The same amendment stood in the names of Dr Lee Siew Choh, Mr Leong Keng Seng, Dr Thio Chan Bee and Inche Ahmad Jabri bin Mohammad Akib.

Hon. Members will remember that when the P.A.P. came into power, they created Political Secretaries in a number of Ministries. There was no creation of such a post in the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister. But in 1960 when the Political Secretary in the Ministry of Labour and Law came out into the open as a sort of rebel against the P.A.P., it was felt by the Government that his continued presence as Political Secretary in the Ministry of Labour and Law would be very embarrassing to the Government. The Government considered that his actions there were inimical to the policy of the P.A.P., and yet it did not do the right thing as it would have done had the culprit been a civil servant. He was not summarily dismissed. Instead, a special post of Political Secretary had to be created in the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister in order to contain this rebel. At that time last year, there was a lot of discussion on the creation of this post. I think it was not only explained by the Government, but some Members on the Government Bench even went to the extent of defending the holder of this post - Mr Fong Swee Suan. The post was created in this Ministry in order to contain Mr Fang Swee Suan and his continuation in this job was explained by the Government. He was defended, in fact, very vigorously. Today, Mr Fong Swee Suan is no more with the Government. Not only is he no more with the Government, but the Prime Minister in his series of awful disclosures described him as a Communist. It would appear that the Government had misused this post. The Government had felt it necessary to give public funds to a Communist.

The Minister for Culture (Mr S. Rajaratnam): Pro-Communists.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Or pro-Communist, whatever it is. Now that the necessity to contain a pro-Communist is no longer there, is it necessary to keep this vote in the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister? I do not think the Deputy Prime Minister would want any Political Secretary any more after his sad experience.

Dr Lee Siew Choh (Queenstown): Everything I want to say was already said yesterday, but I would like to know - oh, no, I misunderstood.

The Chairman: The Member is not speaking on this amendment?

Dr Lee Siew Choh: No.

The Chairman: Mr Leong Keng Seng?

Mr Leong Keng Seng: No.

The Chairman: Dr Thio Chan Bee?

Dr Thio Chan Bee (Tanglin): No.

The Chairman: Inche Ahmad Jabri is not here. Dr Toh.

The Deputy Prime Minister (Dr Toh Chin Chye): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think we have to recollect the events leading to the appointment of Mr Fong Swee Suan as my Political Secretary in chronological order. When he was appointed Political Secretary to me, he was given an opportunity to learn new subjects and to prove his qualities and ability in assisting me in my Ministry. I believe that was sometime in the middle of 1960. The Prime Minister made his series of broadcasts only a couple of months ago. Unfortunately - I must say it was a disappointment to me - my ex-Political Secretary did not prove his mettle. However, I would like to say that it does not necessarily mean that if a man could not fulfil his task in the post, therefore the post should be abolished. I think it stands on principle that it should remain, and if in the future I should find a man who will be able to assist me - and who will probably blow less hot air - on technical matters, I am prepared to appoint him as my Political Secretary.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, was it not a fact that this post was created in 1960 just to contain Mr Fong Swee Suan - to transfer him from the Ministry of Labour and Law to the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: That was related in the debate on the Estimates for 1960 and I do not want to go back to history.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I take it that the answer is yes. Therefore, since the man is no longer there to be contained, why keep the vote?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: As I have pointed out to the Member for Cairnhill, the post is already there and if the man does not prove his worth, it is up to me to find another man to fill the post. If the man has not proved his worth, it does no necessarily mean the post ought to be abolished. May I give the hon. Member a simple example? There is a post--the elected representative of Cairnhill. If the Member for Cairnhill does not prove his worth, it does not necessarily mean that we should abolish that post.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, as regards the manner and the moment of the creation of this post, it is quite clear to the House that it was created in order that the Deputy Prime Minister, who is the mildest gentleman in the P.A.P., could deal with Mr Fang Swee Suan who was getting very difficult, because you know, Mr Speaker, Sir, that when trouble brews in the P.A.P., it is the Chairman who sorts it all out because he is such a gentleman. It was this quality in the Deputy Prime Minister that persuaded the Prime Minister to transfer Mr Fong Swee Suan from the Ministry of Labour, where he had to deal with the present Minister for Health, to; the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister. But, unfortunately, no such post existed. Therefore, the Government created the post without reference to the Assembly because it had to be done quickly on a Special Warrant, and Mr Fong Swee Suan was put there. It is fairly certain and as clear as the nose on one's face that the post was created specially to contain Mr Fang Swee Suan. It was never the intention of the Government to have a Political Secretary to the Deputy Prime Minister because, if one looks at the departments under the Deputy Prime Minister, it is quite clear that there is not much point in appointing a Political Secretary. I think even the Deputy Prime Minister will admit that.

My other point is that Mr Fong Swee Suan has left the Government and has left the Party.

An hon. Member: He will come back.

Mr Rajah: Well, if he comes back, that will be the time for the Minister to come back to the House for an approval of the vote. I ask the Minister for Finance to follow Establishment practice in these matters, which is this: if the use for the post has disappeared, then the post must be abolished. The use for this post has certainly disappeared, and I ask the Minister for Finance how he, in fairness to the finances of the country, can tolerate this post in the Budget. We know what a strict Minister for Finance he is. We know how difficult he is with the Establishment Branch on posts. Therefore, he should apply the same yardstick to this matter. He is not concerned with the politics of the P.A.P. He is the Finance Minister of the State of Singapore. I will tell him this: if he carries redundant posts in the Budget, it merely means that sums of money which could be available for social services and such like valuable objects arc being denied. Can the Minister for Finance tolerate such a situation?

Mr Low Por Tuck (Havelock): Mr Speaker. Sir, was there any work actually given to the ex-Political Secretary?

Mr Rajaratnam rose -

The Chairman: Is the Minister for Culture sharing in this debate? If he wishes to do so, he can do so. Mr Rajaratnam.

Mr Rajaratnam: This is going to be a recurring subject. I myself will be sooner or later involved. It is just as well to dispose of it at this moment. There are two points. If I remember correctly, when this business of Political Secretaries was discussed earlier on, I think it was made quite clear that in principle every Minister was going to have a Political Secretary because, as had been explained, the function of a Political Secretary was to assist Ministers in the political aspect of their work. To that extent, if at any particular time a Minister does or does not have a Political Secretary, it does not mean that he should not have one at some subsequent date when he feels that he can get a man more suited to the post. The other point is this. It is not necessarily true that just because Mr Fong Swee Suan failed very badly in the technical job to which he was assigned, that the job should be abolished. As you know, Sir, I think five Parliamentary Secretaries have also defected. It does not mean that we should abolish the posts of Parliamentary Secretary. In fact, there was a time when four or five Ministers had no Parliamentary Secretaries for a while.

2.45 p.m

So the fact that the post is vacant at any particular time does not necessarily mean that there is no need for its existence, because if and when we can find a suitable man to fill it we will certainly do so.

Mr S. T. Bani (Thomson): Sir, the Deputy Prime Minister has quite nicely suggested that Mr Fang Swee Suan was transferred to his Ministry because he was to be given training in the technical aspects of his Ministry. But I think the Member for Farrer Park has made his point, that there is practically nothing, as far as I can see, in the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister which calls for a Political Secretary's post, having regard to the sort of work that Political Secretaries in the Ministry of Labour and Law and the Ministry of Education are doing. I do not want to labour this point. All that I am trying to do is to put this question of Political Secretary in its proper perspective so that, as the Minister for Culture has said, when we come to the next Head and discuss Political Secretaries, we may understand what it is all about.

To start off with this question of Political Secretaries -

The Chairman: Order. I think the Member for Thomson was here when we discussed this same topic under the Prime Minister's Ministry, and I did indicate that two aspects of the topic had to be discussed and disposed of yesterday. The first was the principle as to why Political Secretaries are necessary. That has been disposed of. The other point is the increase of $250 in salary. That too has been disposed of. Now we are dealing with any reason why a Political Secretary is required in any Ministry, and we have come to the Deputy Prime Minister's Ministry. That is the subject of debate now.

Mr Bani: I just want to say things that are related to what has transpired so far as Mr Fong Swee Suan is concerned. In the first place, Sir, Mr Fong Swee Suan was not transferred from the Ministry of Labour and Law because he needed technical training. He was transferred because he criticised the Government's labour policy when he spoke as a trade unionist at a trade union meeting. The Government did not have the guts to sack him because they knew that if they sacked him they would lose the confidence of the workers. So what they did was quietly to transfer him to some place where he would be considered least harmful to the Government. Mr Lim Ching Siong was already Political Secretary in the Ministry of Finance where they thought he would be least harmful. So they could not have Mr Fong Swee Suan in the Ministry of Finance, and their next obvious choice was the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister. Therefore, Sir, the question of Political Secretaryship in the Ministry of the Deputy Prime Minister was purely for the purpose of accommodating Mr Fong Swee Suan. Now Mr Fang Swee Suan is no more in the P.A.P., and I do not think Mr Jek Yuen Thong or Inche Rahim Ishak, the two Political Secretaries at the moment, would ever be required to take a transfer on the same basis as Mr Fong took. Even if that happened, Sir, the post of Political Secretary in the Ministry of Finance being vacant, I therefore do not think there is any need to have the post contained.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, Sir, as the Member for Thomson has said, if Mr Fong Swee Suan had felt unhappy in my Ministry as Political Secretary, and if it was thought that the idea was to contain him, then the obvious step for him to take would have been to pack up instead of accepting the post.

The Minister for Finance (Dr Goh Keng Swee): I am far from being certain, Mr Speaker, Sir, that a Political Secretary is not necessary in the Deputy Prime Minister's Ministry. You will recollect that a week go - or was it two weeks ago? - when the postmen decided at a meeting to call a strike, I would suggest, Mr Speaker, Sir, that if Mr Fang Swee Suan had been in harness, that incident could well have been averted. So I think the argument -

Mr Rajah: The Minister's argument?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: One way or the other. Whenever you deal with a large labour force, there are matters in which various officers in the Deputy Prime Minister's Ministry are involved in public relations.

As regards the question raised by the Member for Havelock, whether Mr Fong Swee Suan did or did not do any work, I cannot speak for the particular gentleman, but I do know what happened to my own Political Secretary.

The Chairman: Order. Perhaps the Minister will let us know about that when we come to his Ministry.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: So be it.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I was hoping that the Minister for Finance would answer the question, if he was satisfied that this post was not likely to be filled, or that there was no reason to believe that this post could be filled, or that there was anybody in the offing who could fill that post, whether he, as Minister for Finance, would not see to, it that this post be deleted from the Estimates. Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the main difficulty in this matter is this, that the Government is taking a particular stand on this. They made the first move in this. Right. The whole thing has gone wrong and, if I may use the Finance Minister's own expression - a suitable expression - the Government is in a state of "zugzwang". Any single move they make with regard to Political Secretaries would be a wrong move. So the Minister for Finance, who is a chess player, is in a state of "zugzwang". He refuses to carry out his duties as Minister for Finance and allows this appointment to continue. Sir, it is quite pointless tying up in this manner public money which could otherwise be spent usefully. Sir, I would like to hear the Minister for Finance on the tying up of money which could be utilised for other public purposes. This is a serious proposition which I put to the Minister in order to help his Government save its face - hundreds of thousands of dollars are being denied for public use.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, I must answer the Member for Farrer Park. I do not want him to refer to the Minister for Finance because I also have to take the responsibility.

I give this House this assurance: if by the end of the next financial year I am not able to find somebody who is able to act as my Political Secretary and be a good public relations officer between my Ministry and the public, then when the subsequent Budget comes, I will see that that post is not kept in my Ministry.

An hon. Member: There is no -

The Chairman: Order.

Mr Chan Sun Wing (Upper Serangoon): (In Mandarin): I would like to ask the Deputy Prime Minister a question on this item. As far as I can see, the creation of the post of Political Secretary in the Deputy Prime Minister's Office can have only one use - if there is any - and that is to assist in the design of postage stamps. In this respect, there may be some political colour; for example, on National Day we have a stamp design. I wonder whether the Deputy Prime Minister has consulted his Political Secretary in this respect.

The Chairman: Time is getting on.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin (Nee Soon): Mr Speaker, Sir, I heard the Deputy Prime Minister assure us that when we come to the Budget for 1963, if he does not have any use for his Political Secretary, he will consider deleting that post. Might I remind him that we are coming to that Budget in a few days' time?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Barisan Sosialis have got the facts wrong. We are not considering the 1963 Budget. It is a Vote on Account. It is different from the Budget.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, in view of the assurance given by the Deputy Prime Minister, may I beg leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 12 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (5) of subhead 1.

Sir, because procedure requires that I cannot say anything if I do not wish to move an amendment, I have taken the liberty of moving one in order to explain that I have given notice of a number of amendments of a similar character. The first amendment was in respect of the Ministry of the Prime Minister, when the Minister for Finance explained that there had been some reorganisation in the civil service, and that there had been some upgrading and downgrading. Therefore, in cases where I am satisfied that it was as a result of that exercise, I will not move my amendment. I now beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

The Chairman: After that long speech, any Member may speak if he wishes to. I am not preventing any Member from speaking. No one wishes to speak.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the names of Tun Lim Yew Hock and Inche Ahmad Jabri bin Mohammad Akib -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 12 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I am calling upon the Member for the Southern Islands to move it.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 12 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3.

This concerns entertainment expenses. In 1961 $3,000 was voted for, and for 1962 $4,000. There is an increase of $1,000. I observe there are no increases in entertainment expenses in other Ministries. The increase appears only in this Ministry. So I would like to know why the increase of $1,000 is needed, and I believe all other Members would also like to know.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, I do agree there has been an increase of $1,000 in entertainment expenses under my Head. This is a personal application which I made to the Finance Minister, and the explanation is very simple. In my capacity as Deputy Prime Minister, I have to receive Ministers and statesmen from overseas. Being also in charge of several technical departments and the Polytechnic, I have to meet technicians and professional people who come to Singapore either to advise me or to offer material assistance to my departments or to the Polytechnic. Under these circumstances, I have found from my experience that the sum of $3,000 was quite inadequate. In fact, this year with the Air Show I was pretty hard up. There were many people whom I ought to have entertained rather than just merely shaking their hands and accepting material assistance. I felt quite ashamed.

3.00 p.m.

To ensure that this is not going to happen next year, I have personally applied to the Finance Minister for another $1,000. You know, Mr Speaker, that not a single cent enters my pocket because this money comes under a vote. Since I am going to get another $1,000 under entertainment expenses, if any Member on the opposite benches wants me to entertain them, they are welcome, provided they can give me technical assistance!

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): In view of the explanation of the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Speaker, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 12 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 4.

Sir, this item shows an increase of $1,800 in the transport and travelling allowance. We are told, Sir, that in regard to transport for Ministers, they do make use of pool cars. Where then is the necessity for this increase of $1,800?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, the sum under transport and travelling is not paid to me. I have an office car to use, and the increase is not given to me at all. A sum of money is required for travelling expenses incurred by my Office and by my Parliamentary Secretary. As you are aware, Mr Speaker, particularly with changes going on in my departments, which are largely of a pan-Malayan character, there is a considerable amount of discussion which has to be held between Singapore and Kuala Lumpur. Sometimes it necessitates frequent trips to Kuala Lumpur for my officials and myself to discuss with our counterparts there.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, may I beg leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $225,570 for Head 12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 13-

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 13 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1.

Sir, about five years ago, all political Parties in Singapore accepted the principle of Malayanisation. At that time, the present Minister for Health and Law played a very predominant part in demanding that Malayanisation be introduced as speedily as possible. It was felt, however, Sir, that in certain posts it might be necessary to retain expatriate officers until local officers were trained. Another principle was also mentioned, that as soon as a local officer could be put in, the expatriate officer could still be retained as a supernumerary officer or as an advisory officer.

Sir, the post of Director of Civil Aviation was vacated by the expatriate officer at that time. I believe the replacement was also an expatriate officer. We are not saying that the successor is not able to do the job. But if we are going to follow the policy of Malayanisation, will the Government explain whether there are not suitable local officers who can fill that post? If it is necessary for the present expatriate officer to be retained, cannot he be retained as a supernumerary officer?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, as far as the policy of Malayanisation is concerned, I can assure the House that I am one of its champions. In fact, I have exerted my utmost to malayanise as many posts as possible in the departments under my charge. Now, with reference to the particular post mentioned by the Member for Tanglin - the post of Director of Civil Aviation. I must give him this information in case he speaks out of ignorance. The present Director of Civil Aviation was seconded to the Singapore Government by the Australian Government. His period of secondment will expire in June 1962. As far as the present incumbent of the post is concerned, I can convince the Member for Tanglin that he is only too happy to go back to his post in Australia, because otherwise he will lose benefits in terms of pension and so on. We have just now two officers who are being trained and groomed for the post of Director of Civil Aviation. A report on their capabilities will subsequently be submitted to the Public Service Commission. It will be the P.S.C. who will ultimately decide which one of these trainees will be suitable to fill the post of Director of Civil Aviation.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the assurance given, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 13 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 1.

Sir, in this particular case, it is a downgrading of a post. An Airport Signals Officer drawing a salary scale of Code I-10 is now regraded as Administrative Assistant drawing a salary scale of Code I-25. That is to say, it is on a lower salary scale. Although the starting point is still the same at $680 a month, the maximum is different. In the case of the higher salary scale, the maximum is $1,420. In the case of the lower salary scale, the maximum is $1,030. Sir, I bring this point up in order to find out from the Minister the procedure adopted in downgrading a post. Does the holder of the post of Airport Signals Officer automatically become an Administrative Assistant on a lower scale?

The Chairman: Has the Member for Cairnhill looked at the correct items? The bracketed items are the "Administrative Officer" and "Administrative Assistant".

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I am sorry. When I said "Airport Signals Officer", I mean Administrative Officer to Administrative Assistant.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Sir, this is part of the question which the Member for Cairnhill asked yesterday with regard to Principal Assistant Secretary. It is all part of the scheme to reorganise the civil service. If the Minister for Finance were here, he could explain the reorganisation much more clearly than I can. However, I have a script down here which explains what is required of an Administrative Assistant. This is a trainee grade where new recruits to the Administrative Service obtain training and guidance from senior officers, and a knowledge of as wide as possible a range of government activities and structure. They will normally be attached to more senior officers as assistants, with the minimum of specified duties, but they will have an opportunity to learn other work for which they may be expected to have responsibility in the future. There may well be periods in which they are charged with duties in an executive field. They will be expected to serve as Secretary in Committee, to prepare draft papers bearing on matters of policy for consideration by senior officers, and to carry out research leading to the presentation of facts and comments on existing situations. They will often be concerned with the detailed study of legislation.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Deputy Prime Minister has said a lot of things which do not even answer the simple question asked by me. What I ask is this - here we have an Administrative Officer on a higher scale. Then we reduce his scale to a lower scale. How do we carry it out? Do we ask the Administrative Officer to become an Administrative Assistant and shut his mouth and make him get a lower pay? What is the procedure adopted? Is it because the Administrative Officer drawing that salary has already left the post, and, therefore, the post has been renamed "Administrative Assistant"? Is it that a new entrant has come into the service, and not that the holder of the Administrative Officer post has been forcibly asked to take on the job as Administrative Assistant on a lower scale, which means a reduction of nearly $300 in the maximum?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, when we had an expatriate service, there used to be what were known as the Administrative Service and the Administrative Officer grades, the former a fully administrative grade and the latter a semi-administrative grade, the officers of which were known as Administrative Officers. They were all expatriate officers. The grade of Administrative Officer has been abolished and we have regraded the Administrative service, timescale. The Administrative service, timescale, has been broken into two. The upper half of it (a sort of super-scale) is in fact the timescale of senior officers of the Administrative service and the lower half is the new timescale of the junior officers of the Administrative Service who are now known as Administrative Assistants. So that really these former post of Administrative Officer are now surplus to requirements. We also have, as Members of the House known, the Executive Service with its echelon, that is, the Executive Officer, the Higher Executive Officer and the Senior Executive Officer. With the reorganisation of the civil service, these posts of Administrative Officer are redundant.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the explanation given, may I beg leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 13 he reduced by $10 in respect of item (40) of subhead 1.

Sir, I find it difficult to understand the notes on this page. According to the notes, we have the words "Salary scale revised from (II-5)". That is the salary code. In other words, the salary scale now inserted in 1962 is one step higher than that for 1961. Yet we find that the amount for 1962 and that for 1961 are the same.

3.15 p.m.

$11,160 works out nicely at $930 a month, which is the maximum of the II-4 scale, which is right for 1962. But in 1961, it means that the post has already been regraded as II-4. Therefore, I cannot understand the note appearing there - "Salary scale revised from (II-5)" - because the salary that appeared in 1961 is the salary scale for II-4.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, the explanation I have is this. The previous salary scale of this post was one of the few anomalous scales carried over from former years. In 1958, the Civil Aviation Department recommended that the post be regraded and the salary scale revised to equate that of the Higher Executive Officer, as the duties and responsibilities were comparable, but this was not then approved. Further representations were made and it was also pointed out that the officer holding this post would be in a position to compete with the other Higher Executive Officers in the Department for the post of Airport Commercial Manager. Therefore, in the reorganisation of the Department the regrading of this post was approved for 1962. The former salary scale for this post was $655-25A-905. The scale now shown against item (40) is the H.E.O. scale, i.e., $690-30A-930.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, it would appear from the Minister's explanation that the post has not been adjusted. But in 1961 it was already adjusted. Therefore, the note is not correct. $11,160 is the salary scale of II-4 and not II-5. The maximum of II-5 is $905 and not $930. If it had not been adjusted in 1961, then the officer must have been overpaid.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I cannot follow the argument of the Member for Cairnhill. If he wants to know a few more details, I can tell him. The present holder of the scale was appointed on 5.5.60 on a salary of $930 personal to himself. He was transferred from being Air Traffic Control Officer to perform the duties of Airport Traffic Officer.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Now I understand the Officer who was transferred to take up this post was drawing $930, but then why put in notes to confuse a Member? We do not have all the information that the Minister has. This note should not have appeared.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, all these little notes down there are meant for the administrative service and not for the Minister.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: May I withdraw, Sir?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $4,152,820 for Head 13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 14-

Inche Mohd. Ali Bin Alwi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 14 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1.

Mr Speaker, I have nothing personal against the Master Attendant. But what I want to know from the Deputy Prime Minister is this. As far as I know, a few months ago there appeared in the newspapers the story that the Master Attendant and a few others, one from the National Seamen's Union, Mr Teo Chan Toon, and Mr Lim Ching Siong, visited Europe in connection with a seamen's employment delegation. I wish to get clarification as to the results achieved by the delegation. But what happens? Mr Teo was recalled back to Singapore. Was it because of the political conditions in Singapore? Why was this expatriate officer permitted to go alone by himself? Why could not local officers, who will be taking his place, be sent? Mr Speaker, the most important thing is what are the results achieved by this delegation? Nothing, was heard about it in the newspapers. As for the nomination of other representatives, there was no consultation with the other seamen's organisations. Is it the Government's view that the other seamen's organisation should be ignored?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, I do not think the Member for Kampong Kembangan is quite correct when he says there was a little party which included Mr Lim Ching Siong on this trip to visit shipowners in Europe and the United States. Originally, a little party headed by the Master Attendant, in his capacity as Chairman of the Seamen's Registry Board, and a member from the Ministry of Labour, was to Visit all shipowners in Europe and the United States in order to find out the prospects of recruiting Singapore citizens as seamen on board their ships. Unfortunately, when the dates and the itinerary had been fixed, tie Master Attendant fell ill. Our local officer from the Ministry of Labour, who was already in Europe, was left to himself. So a cable was sent to him saying that the trip had to be postponed, and he returned to Singapore. Subsequently, the Master Attendant recovered from his sickness and he went off by himself on my own authority.

It is not that we do not wish to consult the unions. His trip was mainly exploratory, to find out what are the possibilities of foreign shipping companies recruiting Singapore seamen. As you are aware, Mr Speaker, we have to look for new avenues of employment for our citizens. One of the avenues which we have consistently emphasized is that our people must go to sea. The Master Attendant has come back and he has just given me a report of the results of his talks with shipowners in Europe and the United States. This is rather a lengthy report which I do not think at this moment I am prepared to read out to the House. But at a subsequent date I am quite prepared to make a ministerial statement on the report or even to lay it before the Assembly for consideration. However, I would like to say that it is quite encouraging that we have now found 1,000 new jobs for Singapore seamen. But, unfortunately, as a result of his trip abroad, it has turned out that a minority of our seamen are giving considerable trouble to shipowners, and the result is that we have lost 200 jobs. 200 Singapore seamen have just been discharged because of the trouble created on board ship, or because of desertion, or because of refusal to do work for which they have signed under contract. These are some of the problems which the Master Attendant has related in his report. A large part of these problems relate to discipline among our seamen. However, I do not wish to enlarge in detail on this subject at the moment. At some subsequent date I am quite prepared to make a statement on this or to table the report before the House.

Mr Ong Chang Sam (Choa Chu Kang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have two points to raise to which I hope the Deputy Prime Minister will pay attention. The first point is regarding the Singapore River because since last year -

The Chairman: Order. That does not arise from the debate before us, i.e., the question of finding jobs for seamen. That is what we are debating now. I do not see any other amendment by the hon. Member on the Order Paper.

Mr Ong Chang Sam: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise one point regarding this Marine Department. Although it does not concern seamen, I would like to touch upon the policies of the Government regarding the Marine Department.

The Chairman: Order. I am afraid the hon. Member is too late because he ought to have filed a $100 amendment on Head 14. He cannot come in with a debate on a wide policy of that nature without having filed an amendment. The amendment which is being debated now is in connection with a specific item of a subhead which really is the peg on which the debate can take place now, and it is in connection with the Master Attendant and what he himself does in detail.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I think there are one or two questions that have not been answered by the Deputy Prime Minister. What was the expenditure involved by the Master Attendant during his visit? Another question is why did the Secretary of the National Seamen's Union, Mr Teng, return halfway?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I have already explained just now that the Master Attendant was ill and his local officer was left to himself in Europe and he had to come back. On the first part of his question, unless he gives me sufficient notice, I am afraid I cannot just provide the figures of the expenses involved.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): In a spirit of compromise with the Deputy Prime Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,390,710 for Head 14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 15-

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 15 he reduced by $10 in respect of item (6) of subhead 1.

Sir, item (6) of subhead 1 shows that the salary of the Superintendent of Government Vessels and Launches has been increased over his 1961 salary by $3,270, i.e., about $295 a month. The normal salary increase, according to the salary scale, is only $30 a month. It may he that this is due to a change of holder.

3.30 p.m.

The Deputy Prime Minister will, of course, be able to answer that.

But there is another point which is difficult for me to understand, Sir. The amount shown for the 1962 Estimates is $11,580 a year, which works out at $965 a month and there is no such step in the salary scale of I-18. Can the Minister please explain the confusion?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Sir, I may as well give the House a history of this post. It was created in the 1958 Estimates in the salary scale of $560-630-660-690 X 30A-930/960 X 35A-1,240. The holder of the post has to deal with a large volume of work in the Marine Surveys Department and does not require the attention of fully qualified surveyors who are engaged in statutory safety at sea requirements. The duties of the post are supervision of maintenance of machinery, house and the treatment of all Government vessels and launches. The poet was held from November 1958 to October 1960 by Mr Alfred Heng who is now promoted to Engineer and Ship Surveyor. When the 1961 Estimates were framed, $8,310 was provided for Mr Heng's salary. In the 1962 Estimates, as the post was vacant when the Estimates were drafted, the mean of the salary scale was provided for. This accounts for the increase in provision to $11,580 which will be required to meet the salary of the present holder. The P.S.C. has selected and an offer of appointment has gone to a certain Mr Peterson who is the Dredging Superintendent in the Public Works Department. He is a first-class engineer (steam and motor) in the Mercantile Marine. His present salary in the P.W.D. is $1,030. Mr Peterson has requested the Establishment to reduce the three years' probation to a one year's trial as he had already served the three years' probation in his previous post with the P.W.D. with similar duties. I hope that satisfies the Member for Cairnhill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $232,870 for Head 15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 19-

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 19 he reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1.

Sir, in the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance, he said that it had been decided by the Government that every permanently engaged monthly-rated City Council employee would retain his present salary and salary scale on his transfer to the Government service. That decision was welcomed by my colleague, the Member for Farrer Park.

But let us now examine how this decision has been implemented in the Budget that is before us. Sir, the Registrar of Vehicles, on his City Council salary scale of $1,280-45A-1,370-50A-l,620, now has his salary scale regraded to a Government Super-scale Grade G post carrying a salary of $1,520 a month. The City Council salary scale for the Registrar of Vehicles carries a maximum of $1,620, whereas it is now changed to a Government Superscale Grade G carrying a salary of $1,520. That is a difference of $100 a month. That certainly, Sir, is a change from the City Council salary scale to a Government salary scale. Of course, to make that up, the salary to be paid in 1962 at $1,520 gives an increase of $120 a month on the 1961 salary. If it is the same holder, then he will be given in 1962 an increase of $120 a month instead of $50, according to his City Council salary scale. But then, if it is the same holder, he will be losing $100 a month on the top of the timescale. Sir, is this not a change in the declared policy of the Government?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Not at all, Mr Speaker, Sir,I do not think there is any deviation from what the Minister for Finance said. In order to explain this, I had better give the House the history of this post.

Originally, this post was a City Council post carrying a salary of $1,280-45A-1,370-50A-1,620 as mentioned by the Member for Cairnhill. Prior to July 1961 this year, the holder of this post was Mr Goh Kee Song. He was on a fixed salary of $1,400 on contract, and he was seconded as the Registrar of Vehicles from the City Engineer's Department in September 1958. Now the present person who is acting in this post, Mr Schubert, the legal adviser and prosecutor of the City Council, is drawing a basic salary of $965 in the scale of $785-45A-1,280 per month plus C.O.L.A. (30 per cent) and an acting allowance of $90. So when Mr Goh Kee Song vacated his post, the Establishment regraded the post of Registrar of Vehicles. They considered the post as a purely administrative post. In fact, advertisements were placed in the Press asking for applicants to fill this post. The P.S.C. interviewed the applicants, but unfortunately found none of them suitable. In fact, the P.S.C. recommended that an administrative officer should act in the post. So it is proposed that when the Registry of Vehicles is finally integrated with the Government, this recommendation will be adopted. Then, of course again, this post is open to anybody who fills the requirements. There has been no deviation from what the Minister for Finance said.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: In view of the explanation given, I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 19 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (34) of subhead 1.

Sir, in moving this amendment, may I also touch on the following amendment in regard to item (35)*?

*Amendment (3), standing in the names of Tun Lim Yew Hock and Mr Leong Keng Seng, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 19 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (35) of subhead 1.

The Chairman: If it is convenient.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Thank you. Item (34) is in respect of Senior Parking Attendants and an increase of four Senior Parking Attendants is asked for. Item (35) is in respect of Parking Attendants and an increase of 44 new posts is asked for.

Sir, there have been a number of allegations that these jobs of Senior Parking Attendants and Parking Attendants are given to members of the P.A.P. or to those who are sympathetic with the P.A.P. These are allegations which I have heard. Of course, it will be easy for the Minister to stand up here and deny them. But what I want to ask is this. We require an increase on the whole of about 48 (44 plus 4) new posts. What plans has the Minister for new parking places in Singapore to require the additional services of 48 new men?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: 44.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: 44 new posts plus four Senior Parking Attendants.

The Chairman: The Question is,

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 19 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (34) of subhead 1."

The debate may range over amendment (3) in respect of item (35) .

Mr Leong Keng Seng: (In Mandarin): I would like to know how the Government recruited such employees, how many applicants there were, and how many of them were refused employment. I would also like to know how many of the Parking Attendants have been dismissed and the reasons for their dismissals.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, let me tell the Member for Cairnhill quite explicitly that it is all nonsense to say that all these Parking Attendants are P.A.P. members. I denied that last year when the Member for Farrer Park brought this same subject up and it is going to be a perpetual denial as long as I am in this Assembly in charge of the R.O.V.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: How long more?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Never mind. Let me state quite clearly that the appointments are made by the Staff Committee of the City Council and that half of the applicants come from the -

Tun Lim Yew Hock: P.A.P.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: - Labour Exchange and half from the Work Brigade. That is in accordance with the policy we have laid down. The question was asked by the Member for Cairnhill as to why we need another 44 new posts plus 4 Senior Parking Attendants. This is because we have plans to open new car parks at 20 sites. Shall I rattle them out to the House?

The Chairman: Order. I think the Minister could table the list.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: As you suggest, Sir, I think it will be preferable if I table this list.

The Chairman: Unless the Member for Cairnhill wishes to hear it read?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: No, Sir. I am afraid that if these sites are disclosed, all these places might be chockfull of people.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Yes, precisely. I hope the hon. Member is satisfied that there is a real necessity for these posts.

3.45 p.m.

In answer to the Member for Serangoon Gardens, I cannot tell him how many applied. I was not in charge or responsible for appointing persons as car park attendants. It is not my job. As I have said, it is the job of the Staff Committee of the City Council, and so I cannot tell him how many applied or were refused. But if he wants to know how many were dismissed or had their services terminated, I can tell him. Since the service was started, in 1959 I think, 13 have been dismissed for different reasons - for fraud, dishonesty, or abuse of time.

Mr Tee Kim Leng (Pasir Panjang): (In Mandarin): Regarding this recruitment of an additional 44 Parking attendants, I would like to know from the Deputy Prime Minister whether they are to come from the P.A.P.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I have said already that the rule is that half of the applicants come from the Labour Exchange and the other half from the Work Brigade. It is that simple. Quite honestly, I discourage anybody recommending anyone to fill these posts.

Mr Lin You Eng (Moulmein): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask this: if any senior parking attendant should disagree with the views of the P.A.P., will he be dismissed? If the Deputy Prime Minister could not understand me, then I -

The Chairman: Order. I am under the impression that the hon. Member has completed his question. Does he wish to continue? Did the Deputy Prime Minister hear that question?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: No, Sir.

The Chairman: Perhaps the hon. Member will repeat his question.

Mr Lin You Eng: (In Mandarin): I was saying that if there are any attendants who disagree with the P.A.P., will they be dismissed? For instance, I know of a senior parking attendant who was a bad P.A.P. member. He was dismissed because he did not agree with the P.A.P. What is the explanation of the Deputy Prime Minister regarding this matter?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: The answer is quite simple. I am not interested in whether any employee in the City Council agrees or disagrees with the P.A.P. As long as he disagrees with the P.A.P. outside his duty hours, I have nothing to do with him. But as I have told all members of my staff, as long as they are on duty, they are paid to perform that duty and not to carry out politics. But if they carry their disagreement while they are on duty, that is a different question altogether.

Mr Lin You Eng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, does the Deputy Prime Minister mean that this dismissed officer was dismissed because he carried out politics during office hours?

I would also like to know whether this car parking scheme has earned the Government some thousands of dollars. If so, I want to know why these parking attendants have not got any increase in pay.

The Chairman: Profit sharing? Dr Toh.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: That is the trouble when an Assemblyman talks out of ignorance. I had better tell him what exactly has happened.

I will explain to the House quite frankly. One of the main reasons why I pushed forward very hard the policy of putting up car parks all over the place was to provide employment for our local people. There had been a suggestion, which had been pressured by other quarters, to use car parking machines. But I rejected them and said, "Use human labour." The reason was that I could in this little way offer employment to our boys and girls who come out from schools.

When the scheme was started, they were paid $120 per month only and were on a probationary period of three months. Since that time there have been changes in their salary scales. In fact, there has been an increase. And if the Member for Moulmein would like to know, car park attendants are now paid with effect from 1st October, 1961, a salary of $114x4A-134/Bar/138x4A-154, plus a 30 per cent cost of living allowance. So he cannot say that car park attendants have been treated unfairly.

Mr Lin You Eng: (In Mandarin): But-

The Chairman: Order. The hon. Member must not speak until he is called. Mr Lin.

Mr Lin You Eng: (In Mandarin): I am sorry. It appears that originally the salary was $120, and now there has been a cut in the salary and that has been taken as an allowance. Is it fair?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Does the hon. Member understand that they are getting, in addition to their salary, which I have just recited, a cost of living allowance of 30 per cent? A basic salary plus cost of living allowance of 30 per cent. And on top of it, each car parking attendant is supplied with two sets of uniform per annum, two pairs of shoes per annum, one umbrella per month, and female parking attendants are supplied with straw hats.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, it would seem that there is again going to be a P.A.P./Barisan exchange. May I now beg leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (3)* is also in the name of the Member for Serangoon Gardens. Does he wish for a vote?

• See footnote at col. 1766.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: I am not moving.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 19 be reduced by $100.

Mr Speaker, Sir, there is one matter on which I wish to touch. It has already been touched upon by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement when he was dealing with the question of the fall in petrol consumption - I think it was. He did say that there have been brought on to the roads of Singapore a number of small scooters. Sir, I have nothing against small scooters, but when they produce a noise totally out of all proportion to the smallness of their structure, when they emit fumes which are sometimes nauseating if you happen to be close to them, and when they seem to be so flimsily constructed and yet carry pillions on them, then I think it becomes a matter for public concern.

Sir, I have a newsboy who comes to my home to deliver newspapers in the morning. He has now acquired a scooter for himself and he scoots into my house making a terrible noise. The noise is enough to wake up the devils in the neighbourhood, including myself. I have to get up, for which I am duly thankful to him. But, Sir, when he has left the house for well after five to ten minutes, the fumes are still definitely in the house. Now, if one small scooter could do that, Mr Speaker, Sir, imagine the hundreds of scooters in Singapore emitting their noxious fumes on the streets. I am sure it cannot be doing the health of Singaporeans any good.

Sir, I would ask the Minister whether this matter has been considered by the Registrar of Vehicles. I do not know whether it is he who licenses these vehicles. If he is, I would request the Minister to ask him to take these factors into consideration before he allows scooters on the roads. They may serve a useful purpose, Sir, but I think the overriding policy of the Registrar should be whether the vehicle is fit to be put on the road. As to whether it is fit, I think the questions of noise, fumes and safety are vital factors which should be taken into consideration.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, in May 1960 we did try to persuade drivers and owners of motor vehicles to examine their exhausts and so prevent obnoxious fumes from being poured out into the atmosphere. In fact, we did issue several statements over the radio and in the Press warning all owners that action would be taken against them if there were reports that their vehicles were emitting excessive and obnoxious fumes. We did ask members of the public, who had reason to complain, to report to the Police, Post Box 5000, the vehicle number, the time and place where such a vehicle was found to emit obnoxious fumes. There is also under the Motor Vehicle Rules a regulation which compels all vehicles propelled by internal combustion engines to be fitted with a silencer, an expansion chamber or other contrivance suitable and sufficient for reducing as far as may be reasonable the noise caused by the escape of the obnoxious gases from the engine.

For the information of the House, from January to August, 54 cases were dealt with by the Traffic Police; 12 summons cases; 35 cases were compounded; 7 cases of warnings issued to owners. I may as well repeat that the maximum fine for the first offence is $400, for the second or subsequent offence, there is a maximum fine of $1,000 or three month's imprisonment - a fact which I think the Member for Farrer Park should inform his newspaper boy. If he has a justifiable complaint against his newspaper boy, he has got one of two things to do - either report to the Registrar of Vehicles the number of the scooter, or to tell the newspaper boy not to go to his house anymore.

4.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Mr Ong Eng Guan.

Mr Ong Eng Guan (Hong Lim): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the thrill of riding a motor-bicycle lies in the noise it gives. To provide silencers would, I think, discourage the sale of motor-bicycles and scooters. The effective way of taking off the fumes from scooters, I believe, is to provide chimneys as we have in Federation lorries. Then our scooter drivers will have an aerial for the radio in front and a chimney for the fumes at the back. But, Sir, I think we should come to a few of the more serious problems of transport in our country.

First of all, Sir, I wish to bring to the attention of the Deputy Prime Minister the state of affairs of the present bus routes and the buses. They are in a most deplorable state.

The Chairman: Order. The hon. Member has not given notice of an amendment. He is only permitted to speak if there is time. I thought he was going to speak on scooters. That is why I called him. He has, in fact, spoken on scooters. The Member for Farrer Park, I think, is entitled to the floor now. Mr Rajah.

Mr Rajah: Sir, if I may answer the last point raised by the Minister. First, about reporting the newspaper boy. Mr Speaker, Sir, I am so frightened of him that I dare not even complain to him, let alone report him to the Police. On the other matter which the Minister talked about - fines. I do appreciate that there are rules and regulations which enable the police and the enforcing authorities to impose fines. But I would ask the Minister to give very serious consideration to the question of prevention. I always think that prevention is better than cure. What I am at the moment interested in is whether the Minister would instruct the Registrar of Vehicles that in future, when he does license these vehicles, he should satisfy himself that they are not of a nature that will create noise or emit fumes, and that they are safe to carry two persons on them.

The Chairman: Mrs Seow, on scooters?

Mrs Seow Peck Leng (Mountbatten): Just on a point of elucidation. The Deputy Prime Minister gave us the rates of the fines. Could I ask whether those are in regard to the noise made or to the fumes emitted?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: First, to answer the Member for Farrer Park. I give him my assurance that I will discuss this problem with the Registrar of Vehicles, that is, how scooters could be properly controlled with regard to the amount of noise made and the amount of fumes emitted. I am quite sure it can easily be arranged, that no vehicle will be registered unless it has passed certain mechanical tests.

On the question asked by the Member for Mountbatten with regard to the amount of noise, there is a section referring to noise, exhausts and silencers.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the fumes are more dangerous than the noise. Would the Deputy Prime Minister do something about the fines on the fumes as well?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Yes. In fact, I told the House just now that in 1960 we issued two statements through the radio and the Press, asking for the cooperation of the public and other vehicle owners to see that their vehicles do not emit excessive and obnoxious fumes. As I have said, if the Member for Mountbatten is civic conscious, and if she sees a vehicle emitting excessive fumes, all she has got to do is to take down the number of the vehicle, report it to the Registrar of Vehicles and we will take action.

Mr Rajah: May I beg leave to withdraw, Sir?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,514,080 for Head 19 ordered to stand part of Estimates.

Head 20-

Mr Leong Keng Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1.

I want to ask the Minister from what date is the increase of the salary of the Parliamentary Secretary effective. The increase in salary does not correspond with the restoration of the allowance to civil servants.

The Chairman: Is the Member asking the question about the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister?

Mr Leong Keng Seng: Both.

The Chairman: The Member wishes to know from which date is the increase effective. Dr Goh.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, the restoration of variable allowance, I think, was on the 1st of September. It is the same date as the day of the revision of salary for Parliamentary Secretaries.

The Chairman: Mr Ong Chang Sam, on the same question.

Mr Ong Chang Sam: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I want to get some information on the Parliamentary Secretary. I understand from the newspapers that the Parliamentary Secretary was very busy distributing sheep and goats to the people in the Southern Islands. I want to ask him how mans pigs and sheep have been distributed to the people there.

The Chairman: This is one of the puzzles the Chair must face, I suppose. The hon. Member wants to know how many pigs the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development has distributed somewhere. Surely that does not come under this head. I do not know whether the head covers pigs and sheep. I do not think I can allow that question, not under this head anyway. Perhaps the hon. Member will look for another head.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: I withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (2)* is being moved. Amendment (3)+, Mr Rajah.

• Amendment (2) standing in the name of Mr Leong Keng Seng, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 1.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 1+.

+The same amendment stood in the names of Tun Lim Yew Hock, Dr Lee Siew Choh and Mr Leong Keng Seng.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this is the post of Political Secretary to the Minister for National Development. The Ministry has had two Ministers up to date. But I understand they have never yet had a Political Secretary. Now, if the Minister for National Development is prepared to give the same assurance as the Deputy Prime Minister has given the House on his Political Secretary, Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not prepared to go any further on this matter.

The Chairman: Tun Lim Yew Hock.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I am not talking.

The Chairman: Dr Lee?

Dr Lee Siew Choh: No.

The Chairman: Mr Leong Keng Seng?

Mr Leong Keng Seng: No.

The Minister for National Development (Mr Tan Kia Gan): Mr Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister has said just now that my Ministry is quite different from his. Mr Speaker, Sir, although the need was there, I was not able to find a suitable man to fill that post. Recent events have indicated that there is a greater necessity now for a Political Secretary. Sir, you will remember the trouble we had in the last few weeks. There was trouble in the People's Association and trouble with the students. Now that those troubles are more or less contained, there are counter attacks on my Ministry. We are having trouble, as all Members know, in the Work Brigade. We are having trouble with the squatters, which is retarding the progress of our development in housing, as well as the making up of roads. As I have said, Sir, I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that my Ministry is quite different from his, and, therefore, I will not be giving the Member for Farrer Park the assurance which the Deputy Prime Minister gave.

Mr Low Por Tuck: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister for National Development has said that there is a necessity for manning this post of Political Secretary. Will he be kind enough to inform the House, who is the person he has in mind?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have to be very careful about finding this man. I can assure the Member that it would not be him.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, after having listened to 12 days of debate in this House, if the reason for the creation of this post is to have somebody who could act as a bridge between the Government and the masses, it would appear that the Government has no such person, no such creature, or no such animal at its disposal. Now, let us be realists. The P.A.P. have always prided themselves on being realists. Why not be realistic about this situation and say, "Look, we do not have anyone of this calibre. It is not easy to fill this post." Because if it were easy to fill the post, Mr Speaker, Sir, I entirely agree with the Government that from the Government point of view such a person, if he could be found, would be worth his weight in gold. Although I myself am against the principle that the Party in power should pay out of public monies for posts which will place the Party in power in a more favourable position to contest again on a re-election. I oppose that in principle. I do so today, and I will continue to do so. But that does not mean to say I cannot understand it. I can understand it. Having understood it, I am now telling the Government that they have not got anybody like that at their disposal. Nor are they likely to get one during the next three years. Why carry on this sham? Abolish the post.

The Chairman: The hon. Member is asking for a vote?

Mr Rajah: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Tun Lim Yew Hock -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (5) of subhead 1.*

The Chairman: Amendment 4*. Tun Lim.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I am not moving.

The following amendment stood in the name of Tun Lim Yew Hock -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (6) of subhead 1.+

The Chairman: Amendment 5+. Tun Lim.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I am not moving.

4.15 p.m.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (83) of subhead 1.

Sir, could I take the next amendment [Amendment (7)]++ together? They are both the same.

++The amendment, standing in the name of Dr Thio Chan Bee, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (84) of subhead 1.

The Chairman: Yes, if it is convenient.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Sir, these two posts - Director, Work Brigade, and Deputy Director, Work Brigade - are two new posts in the Estimates. They seem to be very highly paid posts, and I suppose the holders must be very well qualified. I am sure the House like to know who these gentlemen are and what their qualifications and duties are. It was revealed by the Finance Minister previously that the Work Brigade is more or less semi-charitable, as it is not quite economical to let the Work Brigade do operations which could be better done by regular workmen. Sir, I wonder why the Government should want to employ two highly qualified men. We would like to have further information.

The Chairman: I wonder whether Members are perhaps puzzled. Looking at page 396, the same two posts - Director, Work Brigade, and Deputy Director, Work Brigade - for 1961 appear there. I think the hon. Member said there were no such posts.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Could we have their duties explained, Sir?

The Chairman: I would like to know whether the Member for Tanglin has seen the items at page 396? Perhaps he does not understand the items.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Yes.

The Chairman: Perhaps the Minister for Finance would like to explain?

The Question is, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (83) of subhead 1," and the debate may range over item (84)*.

*The amendment, standing in the name of Dr Thio Chan Bee, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (84) of subhead 1.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I have never said that the Work Brigade is a charitable institution. What I said was that it was a scheme intended to give assistance to the unemployed by giving them useful work to do in the way of building rural roads, digging irrigation ditches, levelling hills, and so on and so forth. But the work is so arranged that it makes use of more men than machines. It is what people sometimes call "labour intensive". If you want to, say, level a hill, the quickest, cheapest, easiest and most economical method is to use bulldozers. You employ a few people and the work is done very quickly and cheaply. But that is not the purpose of the operation. The purpose of the Work Brigade is to give work to as many people as possible within the limits of the Budget. Now, this does not mean that you can do things any old-how. We have in the Brigade more than 2,000 members already. They are sited in camps; and camps have to be located and built. Water supply and lines have to be laid down. Power, light, rations, clothes, leave, establishment matters and so on have to be arranged. I mean, it is a huge organisation. You do need a person with some technical skill because he has to see that the design of the work is well planned and executions well supervised. As I have said, this is a major organisation, though at the moment it is running into certain snags. We hope that eventually these snags will be ironed out.

Sir, as regards the qualifications of the incumbent, he holds the degree of Bachelor of Science and is also a professional mechanical engineer. He has fairly lengthy experience in a very large commercial firm, both in engineering and administrative work. I can assure the Member for Tanglin that he is by no means overpaid for the responsibilities he has to carry out and for the qualifications he possesses.

As regards the Deputy Director, we are still looking for a suitable person but have not found one yet.

The Chairman: Did the Member for Tanglin say these two posts were new posts?

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Well, I thought at first, Sir, -

The Chairman: Could he answer yes or no?

Dr Thio Chan Bee: I thought they were, Sir, but I want -

The Chairman: Did the Member for Tanglin say they were new posts?

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Well, I thought they were, Sir, but I am glad they are old posts. But I want certain information.

The Chairman: In fairness to all Members of the House, I think that point must be cleared. I think the Member for Tanglin says the two posts are new posts in 1962. 1 do not think the Minister has said that. Will the Minister clear that just for the record?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: They are not new posts. The man in the post has been working for quite some time.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Mr Speaker, my main purpose was this: I heard that a trained engineer was working with the Brigade and, in view of the shortage of technical personnel in the Public Works Department and the fact that the Government could not spend money allocated for the various items of work, it seems a waste of technical talent if a very highly qualified technician were put here and he could carry out work requiring technical skill with the means that he has in the Work Brigade. It is better perhaps for this man, who is very highly qualified, to be sent back to the Public Works Department.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I did explain. It is perhaps something really for the Minister to say rather than I myself. But I did explain that the Work Brigade is engaged in public work projects of various kinds - building roads, ditches, levelling hills and so on. These are matters which require technical knowledge. I do not know whether the Member for Tanglin has ever built a road himself or ever plan to build a road. But if he ever gets down to it, he will find that he does need a fair degree of technical knowledge.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, but this present incumbent, as the Minister has said just now, is a scientist and not a road engineer.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, he has the degree of Bachelor of Science, but he is also a professional mechanical engineer. It is true that if we had a civil engineer he could be, perhaps, more fitted to the duties of the post. But, nevertheless, in his previous experience in a local company, he had to supervise the construction of very major civil engineering projects.

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister says the Director of the Work Brigade has been an engineer. Was he affected by -

The Chairman: There seems to be some difficulty about interpreting. Will the hon. Member repeat slowly what he has said?

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker. I will repeat. According to what the Minister has told us, it is quite proper for an engineer to be the Director in charge of the Work Brigade. But from what I have learnt from the Director, he feels that he has a rather heavy task because, in addition to administrative work, he has to supervise members of the Work Brigade. Perhaps his time for recreation is thereby reduced.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, a few days ago I had occasion, I think, in this House to make a reference to the Work Brigade. I said that we expected trouble there and this remark of mine caused some merriment in the Opposition benches, particularly among the Barisan Sosialis. Sir, the Member for Pasir Panjang is obviously enjoying what he believes to be the predicament of the Director of the Work Brigade being confronted with the demand by some of his more irresponsible members of the Brigade to form a trade union. Sir, since this subject is raised, perhaps I should say a few words. I did say that we are expecting trouble in the Work Brigade. I think the trouble will come. I also say, Mr Speaker, Sir, that this will be round No. 4 between the Barisan Sosialis and the pro-Communist back-room boys and the P.A.P. Round No. I, Mr Speaker, Sir, was the People's Association -

The Chairman: Order. Let us forget rounds 1, 2 and 3. Let us carry on with round 4. There is a time limit.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I will not describe the sequence of events in rounds 1, 2 and 3 and where the k.o. was administered. But just for the record, round No. 1 was the People's Association; round No. 2 was the City Council strike, where the pro-Communists got a bloody nose over this event; round No. 3 was the students: and round No. 4, is the Work Brigade. It is coming.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Round No. 5 - the P.A.P. is knocked out!

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, the Member for Queenstown is capable of the grossest self delusion. I have repeatedly told him that he and his Party will be in a zugzwang. Whatever they do now, the remedy for -

Dr Lee Siew Choh rose -

The Chairman: Point of order?

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Point of explanation.

The Chairman: If the Minister will give way.

Dr Goh Keng Swee resumed his seat.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: He has always been talking about zugzwang and he has always been giving the wrong explanation. "Zugzwang" means stalemate. He has been saying something which is utterly wrong.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I am sorry that such a well-known chess player could make so foolish a mistake. Stalemate means your king cannot move. You get a draw -[Laughter]

The Chairman: Order. This is not the time to have a debate on chess movements. If we are going to do so, I am afraid the guillotine will be falling much sooner than the Opposition would like it to fall.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I just want to assure the House that zugzwang is not stalemate. Zugzwang - you lose. Stalemate - you get a draw.

Now, to go back to the subject. Sir, round No. 4 is starting and obviously Barisan Sosialis members are in good heart. They are in good heart because they expect to deal a blow, as the Member for Queenstown himself said, which may be a k.o. for the P.A.P. Sir, we have survived three rounds pretty well and we shall deal with the 4th round with the same skill and resolution as we handled the other three. Perhaps it will not be in order, Mr Speaker, Sir, to go into the issues involved in the request of Brigade members to form a union. Would that be in order since the subject was raised?

4.30 p.m.

The Chairman: The Member for Pasir Panjang started this hare and the Minister is chasing it. How far he can chase it, I do not know at the moment.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, things have reached a stage in some Brigade camps where I think the Government must take notice of the position. Discipline is deteriorating, and in some camps which have been most exposed to manipulation by supporters of the Barisan Sosialis, discipline has totally collapsed. Obviously something must be done about it.

An hon. Member: Table a motion.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: What is behind all this agitation in the Work Brigade camps is the request and demand that members should be permitted to form a trade union. Sir, I have explained that Brigade members are not full-time employees of the Government. In other words, the membership of the Work Brigade is a temporary thing - six or nine months perhaps. When a youth is unemployed, we put him there, and give him useful work and useful training if we can either in the Polytechnic or on actual training courses; but in the meantime he makes his contribution to society by taking part in construction work by which we hope to instil in them a sense of pride. And in return for this, he does not get paid. It is not intended that he should be paid a salary. He gets his keep, food, accommodation, clothing and a small allowance of $1.50 per day to keep him going until the time when the Brigade get him a permanent job outside. And the Work Brigade has found jobs for about 1,000 of its members.

Therefore, it is quite wrong to say that the Brigade members have a right to form a union or that, in fact, a trade union is an appropriate organisation to advance their interests. They say, "Well, look, why not pay us the same pay as the Government daily-rated workers?" The answer is, "If we do so, then we might as well absorb you into the Government daily-rated force, but there are no vacancies at present." If they want the same terms of pay as permanent workers, then I say that the logical consequence of that is that we shall close down the Work Brigade, engage a few of them to fill the vacant posts in the Government service, and tell the rest of them, "Well, you do not want this temporary scheme whereby you are given some useful work to do until we get a few permanent jobs for you." This is known to the members of the Barisan Sosialis because we worked out the scheme with them when they were in the Government; but for reasons of their own they choose to misrepresent the position to the Work Brigade members and stir up trouble. This has been going on for some months now. As I have said, it is likely to come to a head in the near future when round No. 4 will be enacted. Until then, Sir, let us wait and see.

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has touched upon the intention of members of the Work Brigade to form a union. As far as I know, I want to inform this House that members of the Work Brigade have worked for more than a year without an increase in pay. Some of them have been recommended by either Members of the Assembly or the Party branches. This is very unfair because we know that the pay of a member of the Work Brigade is only $1.50 per day. The members of the Work Brigade have been working for more than a year and they still go on drawing $1.50 per day. How can they live on $1.50 per day? So it is proper for them to form a union. Maybe they want to form a union in order to fight for better working conditions.

Another point is this. Why does the Government put the blame on the Barisan Sosialis for all sorts of things? For example, if one day our Speaker in this House should disappear, should Members of the Barisan Sosialis be blamed for that by the Government? This is illogical, do you not think so? Therefore, whenever there is anything good done, they -

The Chairman: Order. Did I hear the hon. Member say that one day the Speaker will disappear? If that is so, then I suppose I will have to build a cage round me as they do in some other Parliaments.

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): I sincerely hope the P.A.P. know that whenever they do a thing, they must be fair. For example, when I was in the P.A.P., whenever somebody came into a Party branch, I would recommend him for a job in the Work Brigade.

The Chairman: Order. This is going too much into details. Time is getting short. I ask Members to cut this debate short.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (7)* is not being moved. Mr Tee Kim Leng, amendment (8).+

• See footnote at col. 1778.

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

• That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (88) of subhead 1.

This concerns Camp Supervisors. Sir, I have one or two points to raise on this question. The vacancies have not been advertised in the papers. We have approved the vote for these posts, but they have not been advertised. I wonder where the holders of these posts have come from.

The second point is this. Is it not the duty of a Camp Supervisor to go round the camp to supervise members of the Work Brigade and to find out whether they remain in the camp? Is it his duty to check the travelling bags of members of the Work Brigade to see whether they contain papers and newspapers? Some members are interested in politics and so they buy political magazines such as The Political Science Society and The Torch of the Malayan Socialist Party. Does it mean that when such magazines are found, they will be confiscated?

There is another point - whether the P.A.P. Weekly has been confiscated?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, of the four posts of Camp Supervisors, two are held by two officers temporarily seconded from other Ministries. One is filled by an officer in a temporary capacity with the approval of the P.S.C.

As regards the duties of these supervisors, their duties are listed as follows:

Inspection of Work Brigade Camps to check on daily attendance and other matters connected with attendance. Check the daily accounts of the camp and other matters connected with finance. Assist in the maintenance of camp discipline, particularly the observance of the Disciplinary Code. Jointly responsible with camp officials for the inspection of camp sites and buildings thereon. Jointly responsible with camp officials for the daily execution of work by all workers. Check on stores and equipment belonging to the Government. Interview and enrol recruits and deploy them to camps. Prepare fortnightly reports of camp activities, works progress, organisation and finance, camp instructions and various other duties for submission to the Director. Disseminate instructions from the Director and check on their observance. Responsibility to the Director for all matters in the camps under their supervision except technical and manpower distribution matters.

4.42 p.m.

[Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr John Mammen) in the Chair]

Mr Tan Kia Gan: As regards the other matters brought up by the Member for Pasir Panjang, you will realise that in the duties that I have just listed, the Camp Supervisors have a lot of authority over the Work Brigade Camps as regards members. What the Member for Pasir Panjang has brought up, I think, occurred very recently due to the troubles that we are having in the camps. For the past l� years, the Work Brigade was able to function according to the Disciplinary Code, but the troubles are due to the agitation from the Barisan Sosialis - I particularly refer to the Member for Toa Payoh.

Sir, I notice also in this amendment paper that the Member from the Barisan Sosialis Front has not made any amendment whatsoever in respect of the Work Brigade. He was closely connected with the Work Brigade, because, when I tock it over from the Labour Ministry, he was at that time one of the Supremos. Later on, the Supremos were abolished and I appointed him as one of the liaison officers between the Work Brigade and the Ministry. He was responsible for a lot of things which are happening now in the Work Brigade.

4.45 p.m.

The Member for Pasir Panjang has just now mentioned that the P.A.P. always says that if it has any trouble, it is created by the Barisan Sosialis. In this connection, Sir, I have reliable information that the Member for Toa Payoh has been meeting leaders of the Work Brigade who are agitating to form a union now. I would like the Member for Toa Payoh to deny this. If he dares to deny this, then it can be said that the P.A.P. is always blaming the Barisan Sosialis for the trouble -

The Chairman (Mr John Mammen): Order. I think the Minister must bear in mind that the question concerns camps. So it will be better for him to confine himself to that question.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: As I have said, Sir, because of the trouble in the camps, we have to make use of the camp supervisors to check on the activities of people in the camps. The Camp Commandants in several camps have already thrown overboard the Disciplinary Code which they were supposed to use on their subordinates as well as members in the camps. In view of the fact that the Director of the Work Brigade could not get his orders down through the Camp Commandants, he had to use the camp supervisors to do the duties which were supposed to be done by the Camp Commandants.

Mr Wong Soon Fong (Toa Payoh): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, just now the Minister for National Development has accused me of being involved with members who want to form a union. I must clarify this point. He says that I have met leaders of those members who want to form a union. I can tell him this. When I was in the P.A.P., I was responsible for the Work Brigade. There are several thousands of members all over Singapore who know me. I have had occasion to meet such members whom I knew formerly. I can tell him that two weeks ago -

The Chairman: Order. We are on the question of camp supervisors. If the hon. Member is going to indulge in a debate on the formation of a union in the Work Brigade, that will throw open the topic to the Government to attack. So I think the hon. Member should confine himself to camp supervisors.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: On a point of order, Sir, with respect to your ruling. You have allowed the Minister for National Development to level a charge at the Member concerned asking him to deny whether he was ever involved in such meetings. And the hon. Member was just denying or confirming it.

The Chairman: Order. As far as the Member is concerned, he has already explained his position, and that is the end of it. But if he is again going to indulge in speaking on the formation of a union in the Work Brigade, then I think that is completely irrelevant.

Mr Wong Soon Fong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I was just trying to meet this accusation made by the Minister. I was saying that two weeks ago, on a Sunday, six branches of the Barisan Sosialis had a picnic in Pasir Ris. At that time I had occasion to meet members of the Work Brigade. So how could he, without any foundation, accuse me of their meeting me?

Another point I would like to ask the Minister is this: is any of these four camp supervisors a Central Committee member of the P.A.P.?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, when the Member for Toa Payoh was in the Work Brigade, he was a P.A.P. Assemblyman. He was also in the category of officers. What I mean is that he is in some way holding a position equivalent to a camp supervisor.

As I have said just now, Sir, two of these officers were seconded from other Ministries-one from Home Affairs and the other from Education.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: The answer is "Yes" or "No".

The Chairman: Order.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: And the other member is Inche Roslan bin Hassan who was at one time in the Central Executive Committee of the P.A.P.

Mr Wong Soon Fong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister did not answer the other question. I ask him whether any of these camp supervisors is a disciplinary officer in then P.A.P.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, I am not aware whether he is a disciplinary officer in the P.A.P. I only know that he is in the P.A.P. And they were working together before.

Dr Sheng Nam Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, would the Minister for National Development then find out whether this person is in the Disciplinary Section of the P.A.P. and let us know?

Mr Wong Soon Fong: (In Mandarin): Just now the Minister has said that members of the Work Brigade want to form a union. As far as I know, some Party members in the Work Brigade are responsible officers in the Work Brigade and whenever there is a new member, this new member will be given an application form for membership in the P.A.P. Some wonder whether this is a Party branch.

The Chairman: Order. I do not understand. Here we are talking about camp supervisors, not P.A.P. membership. So will the Member please confine himself to camp supervisors?

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Mr Deputy Speaker, what are the hours of duty of these camp supervisors?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: As the Member for Pasir Panjang has said, I do not exactly know what are the hours of work. But the Member for Pasir Panjang has said that these Camp supervisors were working in the middle of the night. I can imagine they must be working very long hours.

The Chairman: Does the Member for Pasir Panjang wish for a vote or does he wish to withdraw his amendment?

Mr Tee Kim Leng: I want a vote.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr A. P. Rajah -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1.

Mr Rajah: I am not moving.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 41.*

• The same amendment stood in the names of Mr Leong Keng Seng, Mr Tee Kim Leng and Mr Ong Eng Guan.

Now, Sir, we come to the Work Brigade proper. So much has already been said on the Work Brigade that we need not say very much more on this. In the 1962 provision there is an increase of nearly $3 million. Last year the vote was for $3 million, and this year what is asked for is $5,890,000, i.e. nearly double. Last year it was explained that the money was required for capital expenditure, like construction and maintenance of camps, provision of beds, food, and purchase of tools. Now with this doubling of the vote for 1962, is it envisaged by the Government that they propose to increase the Work Brigade contingent? Or is it for some other scheme? During last year's Budget sitting, Sir, we pointed out that what was being paid to the members of the Work Brigade at $2 a day was inadequate and was not fair. No doubt the Government explained that they were given places to sleep in, they had other amenities which they could enjoy. In fact, they had been given every opportunity to have their brains washed.

Sir, this was not pointed cut last year because there was no by-election. The only thing pointed out was that members of the Work Brigade were at the Airport to greet the Minister for Labour and Law when he returned from Tokyo. That was last year. But this year, there were two by-elections. I say in this Assembly that the P.A.P. Government has made use of workers in the Work Brigade to attend election rallies by force. This is most improper.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I want to ask how many members and camps there are in the Work Brigade now how much pay is paid to members of the Work Brigade, including its leaders and camp leaders. I also want to ask a question about the working hours of such members.

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, some $5 million is allocated for the Work Brigade. But last year it was very much less, only some $3 million. All of a sudden, there is a considerable increase. At present there are only eight camps, in the Work Brigade, as far as I know.. Now, if the vote for the Work Brigade is doubled, will the number of camps be doubled as well? That is one point which I cannot understand.

5.00 p.m.

The Chairman (Mr Mammen): Order It is time to suspend.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Mammen) left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

Mr Deputy Speaker: I suspend the sitting until 5.30 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.00 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

Resumption of Debate on Question,

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 41."

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

5.31 p.m.

Question again proposed.

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in the total expenditure for the Work Brigade in the 1961 Estimates, we can see clearly the itemisation of the expenditure. But in this year's Estimates, there are no specific items of expenditure. Does it mean that the Minister is too busy to do that?

The Chairman: Will the hon. Member for Pasir Panjang indicate where he has seen those itemised projects for 1961? Perhaps he will indicate the page.

Mr Tee Kim Leng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, can the Minister itemise the expenditure for 1962?

The Chairman: The Member for Pasir Panjang now agrees that the 1961 expenditure was not itemised.

Mr Ong Eng Guan: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Work Brigade has been in existence for nearly two years. I think we are in a position to assess its value to the community. Mr Speaker, Sir, unlike the special squad which was a revolutionary working force, it seems to me that in the past two years, the Work Brigade, despite the millions of dollars being thrown into it, has actually contributed nothing to the capital improvement of the community. I say that the only useful purpose it has served was during the Hong Lim by-election, where it attended the mass meetings. This, as the Member for Nee Soon has said, was not very useful either.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we will spend $6.1 million approximately on this item in 1961. I do not know how much we are going to get out from it. If this $6.1 million is being used to build roads, stand-pipes, community projects, I think we will be able to see more constructive achievements. During the time of the special squad, only a few hundreds of thousands of dollars was spent. Yet we have had projects like the Kallang Park, the promenade, and many parks were built. Here we have millions to be spent - I have estimated that it would be twenty times the amount - and yet nothing has come out of it. It is time now, Sir, for the Government to consider the usefulness of the Work Brigade.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, there are at present nine Work Brigade camps, consisting of about 2,000 Work Brigade members. The hon. Member opposite asked about details of hours of work, the camps and the expenses incurred for the year. These are little details which I have not got. But if the Member is interested, I will send him those details.

As regards the provision of $5,890,170 for next year, the breakdown of this figure is as follows. Actually the provision will cover expenses for 15 camps and a force of 3,000 camp members. The details of this provision are: $ Transport 96,000 Wages and allowances .. 2,307,000 Ration for 3,000 camp members 1,080,000 Personal clothing and equipment 76,000 Amenity fund, stationery, miscellaneous expenditure items, medical supplies 144,000 Electricity and water charges for 15 camps 72,000 Removal of night-soil for 15 camps 4,000 Maintenance of buildings 6,000 Working tools 39,000 Maintenance and rental of telephones and radio equipment 13,000 Drawing material and instrument for planning unit 1,200 Survey instrument and accessories 1,000 Maintenance of camp furniture and equipment 9,000 Establishment of camps 227,000 Cost of projects 1,200,000 Cost of materials for machines -

Mr Low Por Tuck rose-

The Chairman: Is it a point of order?

Mr Low Por Tuck: Mr Speaker, on a point of order. Mr Speaker, Sir, if the reply is in such details, I wonder whether the Minister can send it to the Member instead. We have another 15 minutes left.

The Chairman: The answer to that is that the Member for Pasir Panjang has asked specifically that the Minister should give details, and the Minister is giving details. If time is being wasted, it is the fault of the Member for Pasir Panjang. Mr Minister, please continue.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: $ Fuel for a graders, tent rollers and tent tippers 56,000 Maintenance and repair and other expenses of graders, rollers and tippers 20,000 Miscellaneous contingencies 300,000 Sir, as the Finance Minister has mentioned just now, the Work Brigade is formed for the purpose of keeping in useful and gainful occupation youths between the ages of 16 and 30 who would otherwise be joining the ranks of the unemployed. The Member for Hong Lim has mentioned just now that when he had the special squad, he was doing a lot of projects. But I would like to inform him that these unemployed youths, in addition to being kept occupied in the camps, are doing very useful work.

The major projects tackled by the Work Brigade are as follows. In Queenstown, they are working on the outer ring road, Jalan Bukit Merah, and also working on the Jurong link road. The earthworks, foundation work, laying of run curbs, pipes, construction of roadside drains, footpaths are all done by the Work Brigade. In addition, they are doing earthworks, clearing of undergrowth, cutting of slopes and levelling of banks of the Sungei Api Api. When we had the drought and there was an acute shortage of sand, the Kaki Bukit camp of the Work Brigade was operating a sand quarry and supplying sand. In the resettlement areas, the Work Brigade are engaged in construction of new agricultural roads, timber bridges, roadside drains and the laying of pipe culverts. In the rural areas, they are doing the maintenance and the reconstruction of rural drains, de-silting and widening of drains, as well as the laying of culverts. In addition, there is other work like camp construction, repair of public stand-pipe platforms and the slabbing of drains. This, Sir, has provided a lot of amenities for the rural areas which are benefiting the rural folks.

5.45 p.m.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I wonder whether anybody did ask the question: How old are these 3,000 odd members? As far as my recollection goes, they are all under 21. If I remember rightly, the Work Bridage is especially intended for youths - so I understood from the hon. the Finance Minister. So I take it that most of them are under 21. Mr Speaker, Sir, I have always felt that, from the Government point of view, it is a desirable social project. But when one considers this desirable social project, one must weigh it against the background of the ultimate benefits which society derives from these social experiments. On the whole, Mr Speaker, Sir, I am inclined to view that, on balance, the State loses out on this. The position is that the Government takes in these boys either from school or two or three years after school, 18, 19, 20, 21. By taking them in and putting them to the type of work that they are being put, somebody else is being deprived of a job. That is most definite and certain. These people have normally been in charge of a family. They have been dependent on such type of work in order to maintain themselves and their own families. The direct effect of this social experiment is that you might keep some boys off the streets, but you are depriving one person who maintains two or three members of the family, and those persons are the direct sufferers as a result of this social scheme. If the social scheme is a success, at least one might say there are compensating benefits and therefore, perhaps, it is all right. But as against that, Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is fairly clear from the break-up given by the Hon. the Minister for National Development that the maintenance charges connected with this Brigade far outweigh the direct work they put into all these projects. For instance, on the personal emoluments for the Singapore Work Brigade on page 143. Now, that, I take it, is the civil service organisation which is paid (and that comes to over $200,000 a year) to keep this Brigade ie function. Now, that is waste of money. These people, originally, were civil servants doing some other form of social good. I believe they were civil defence and civil fire brigade officers, or some thing like that. These officers who were responsible for civil defence and the civil fire brigade have been put into this. I notice from the break-up figures given by the Minister for National Development that the figure of $2 million for wages and the rest of it seems to be concerned mostly with utensils or articles used in these projects which in 2, 3 or 4 years' time will be written off completely, and it will be a waste of money. All these things could be better done if the Government went to tender and the people who have been normally doing these works could then do it. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in order to give employment to 3,000, it seems to me we are depriving another 3,000 of this employment, and those 3,000 not only keep themselves, but keep two or three others in addition to themselves. So I ask the Minister: is it really a worthwhile social experiment which, even if it does help these 3,000, only adds confusion and misery to 3,000 others and the 9,000 who are dependent on these 3,000? I think, on balance, it is not.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, what the Member for Farrer Park says would have substance if, in fact, creating the Work Brigade meant that it is worth an equivalent number of people who would be put out of job. Sir, I do not think his contention could be sustained by facts. Whether or not there is unemployment created by the Work Brigade could be judged by the level of activity in the construction industry - building of houses, levelling of land, building of roads and so on and so forth. We all know today, Mr Speaker, Sir, that the construction industry is going at full blast. In fact, the Government is always keeping an eye on building and construction costs to see that we do not over-stretch the industry with the result that we just pay higher prices for the same volume of work. Therefore, I do not think it can be said that the existence of the Work Brigade has brought about unemployment among other people. I may add this: the sort of work given to the Work Brigade to perform would normally be the less urgent categories of public works which the Government could wait to be performed if funds were not available, or the designing and planning capacity of the Public Works Department were otherwise engaged, or if the construction industry itself could not cope with the work. We do not give to the Work Brigade the very urgent or top priority jobs. The P.W.D. have a number of long-term projects in hand for long-term improvements of roads, drainage, irrigation and such like. These are the projects which we give to the Brigade to perform. So, to sum up, they do not take away jobs from other people. There is a long-term addition to the amenities and services that Singapore has.

In answer to the claim by the Member for Hong Lim that his special squad performed prodigious work-

Mr Low Por Tuck rose-

The Chairman: Point of order?

Mr Low Por Tuck: Yes. Mr Speaker, Sir, it seems that the Minister for National Development has already replied to the Member for Hong Lim. Is it necessary for the Minister for Finance to reply to him?

Mr Rajaratnam: Why not?

The Chairman: Order. The Minister for Finance was replying to the Member for Farrer Park on the type of projects that members of the Work Brigade are undertaking. That is perfectly in order.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I think the Member for Havelock is right. I was making a new point in replying to the Member for Hong Lim. This is a point which, I think, my colleague -

The Chairman: Order. I am sorry then. I did not quite hear that. If, in fact, that point has been touched upon, I do not think the Minister should repeat it.

Dato Abdul Hamid Bin Haji Jumat (Geylang Serai): Mr Speaker, Sir, earlier in the afternoon, I think the Minister for Finance did mention rounds 1, 2, 3 and 4 between the P.A.P. and the Barisan Sosialis. But while he is keeping his eye on round 4, I think he should also look deeper into the matter concerning the Work Brigade, because I understand the situation in some of the camps is really tense and those who are supporting this idea of a union in the Work Brigade are Chinese and those who are against it are Malays. Trouble may brew in time. If the Government is going to take action, it had better take action quickly and swiftly.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I can assure the Member for Geylang Serai that we are keeping a very close watch on the situation. Mind you, Sir, we have said this is round 4, but I have met the Member for Thomson and he says, "This is not round 1, 2, 3 or 4. This is just sparring." Mr Speaker, Sir, he assures me that when round 1 comes, there will be a knock-out blow in the first second. That is, he adds with due prudence, "unless we have prepared a zugzwang for you." I have duly assured him that the zugzwang has been prepared.

The Chairman: Order. Time has expired. Does the Member for Cairnhill wish to take a vote?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Yes, of course.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The time allotted for Head 20 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the names of Dr Lee Siew Choh, Mr Low Por Tuck and Dr Thio Chan Bee, was not proceeded with:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 20 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $8,739,720 for Head 20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 22. -

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 22 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (21) of subhead 1.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the posts of Building Inspectors, Rural Division, I wish to get an answer from the Minister concerned as regards the houses or temporary buildings which were inspected about two years ago, and what has happened to the application forms for those houses which have no numbers. Of the applications which I myself have had occasion to bring up to the Ministry, more than half have been approved, but why is it that the rest have not? Why is it that some houses have numbers and the other adjoining houses in the same locality do not have numbers yet? I would like clarification and an explanation from the Minister concerned.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, the normal procedure is that the application for house numbers goes to the Assessment Department in the Prime Minister's Ministry, but since the Member for Kampong Kembangan has inquired about this, I will say that I am not aware of what the position is like as far as his case is concerned. But the normal procedure is that applications for house numbers for temporary buildings go to the Assessment Department, the Assessment Department will refer to the Chief Building Surveyor's Department of my Ministry, and the Chief Building Surveyor's Department, will send inspectors out to have a look at these houses and see whether they comply with the building by-laws.

6.00 p.m.

If they comply with the building bylaws, then the Chief Building Surveyor will recommend to the Assessment Department to issue the licence. I do not know whether these houses have the recommendation of the Chief Building Surveyor, and I am not in a position to answer the hon. Member. But if he could give me details of these cases, I can assure him I will look into them and see whether they comply with the building by-laws. If they do, they, will be recommended.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wonder whether the Minister is aware that during the time when the City Council was under a P.A.P. Mayor, rumours went round all over Singapore that the P.A.P. was a Government for the poor and that therefore they could build houses and they would get numbers. Many poor people under that delusion built a lot of houses and those that were lucky enough - I would not like to suggest how they got them, but they somehow managed to pull strings with the City Council - did get the numbers at that time. As the Member for Kampong Kembangan has said, there are some houses which have numbers but the others by their side do not have any numbers. This has gone on ever since that time, and until today the people living in such houses are dreading that one of these days - especially in view of what has happened in Malcolm Road - they will suffer the same fate. They were not the type of people whom the Prime Minister referred to as "trying to beat the gun". They were disillusioned at the time when the P.A.P. really had the reputation of working for the poor.

Now, would the Minister tell us what would happen to such people, especially if they happen to have a mandatory order due to no fault of their own? Could the Minister do something about it?

Mr Ong Eng Guan (Hong Lim): Sir, on a point of clarification. Just now I have heard the Member for Mountbatten mention unauthorised structures, that some can get numbers and others cannot. Was it perhaps in Kampong Kembangan? To refresh the memory of the Member for Mountbatten, I think in those days Kampong Kembangan came under the control of the Rural Board which was under the direct supervision of her colleague, the Member for Cairnhill.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: On a point of information, Sir. I am talking about Kampong Amber and not Kampong Kembangan.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, there is a difference between houses built without the permission of the landlord and without proper plans, and those built with the permission of the landlord. I think the Member for Mountbatten is confusing the issue.

As regards those cases in Kampong Amber - which are her problem - I have looked into them and found that these people were building unauthorised houses. That is quite a different kettle of fish. If a man is prepared to risk and build an unauthorised house without the permission of the landlord, the Land Office, and the City Council, then he is, faced with two courses of action. One is, that immediately it is discovered, the house will be demolished. On the other hand, if he escapes the notice of the Chief Building Surveyor, then when the time comes and it is discovered, there is a possibility that because of long occupation-the house will not be pulled down, but the process of law takes over, and that is a summons will be served on the occupier to demolish the house. If he fails to demolish it, the Chief Building Surveyor may, for humanitarian reasons, just summon him to court and fine him. In such a case, the court will issue a mandatory order.

The Chairman: Order. I think we are going on a different topic. We are on Building Inspectors. I should imagine that that debate could properly have taken place under subhead 3, but no amendment has been moved in relation to subhead 3.

Inche Mohd. Ali: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has clarified the position. After this debate is over, I will bring a delegation of the applicants to the Minister so as to increase the finances of Singapore. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 22 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I will not be very long as there are only four minutes more. The problem is of some importance. I will make the point as shortly and quickly as I can.

Sir, this is a matter which comes under the control of the people under this head. Sir, quite recently - over the last year or 18 months - there has been a spate of building (if I may put it this way) in the backlanes of the city, on the side-tables of roads, and sometimes on pavements. They start off in a small way and end up with domestic living premises. This is a fact, Sir. Anybody who goes round town can see it. The only persons who do not see it are the people working in this department. It is public knowledge now. Mr Speaker, Sir, if it were a purely hawking concern - little hawkers - one does not mind it so much. But this has become a big establishment. Now what is worse is that the establishment is changing hands at big sums of money. The man has a goodwill in respect of the premises. He sells it to somebody. He goes and establishes somewhere else and then establishes a goodwill in respect of that; and goes again somewhere else. This has become a good thriving business. Sir, one can carry this a little too far, and I ask the Minister not to let Singapore go to ruin. Let us not build up problems today and continue to let them grow, which some other government has to tackle, because some government must eventually tackle it. So I beg of the Government to step in and solve this problem and not let it get out of hand so that it will eventually become a social problem which some agitators use to upset governments.

Another thing, Sir, which I want to bring quickly to the Minister is this. We have discussed buildings on Crown lands. I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister buildings on private lands by similar persons on a big scale - business enterprises that go in, develop quickly and sell. They go in and then the owner and the Building Department are unable to do anything on human grounds. So the Minister should try and devise some scheme which will prevent these building operators from fooling the innocent public who go and buy them and so create a social problem.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, this problem of unauthorised building has become, as the Member for Farrer Park has said, mare and more serious. But until such time as the Local Government Integration Bill comes into force, there are certain fields over which the Chief Building Surveyor's Department has no jurisdiction.

I can assure the Member for Farrer Park that we have looked into this question very carefully. In cases where we have to move in to demolish summarily, we have been accused of being hard-hearted. But, Sir, without the proper legislation, it is difficult for the Government to carry out what it wants to do; that is, the control of unauthorised buildings. This problem is rather a big one, because at the moment there are thousands of unauthorised houses under mandatory orders, and until such time as we set up a Review Committee and also introduce new legislation, we are rather helpless.

The Chairman: Order. Time has expired. Is the Member for Farrer Part claiming a division?

Mr Rajah: No. I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $651,440 for Head 22, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 23-

Mr Rajah: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1.*

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Leong Keng Seng.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may, at the same time, deal with another amend ment notice of which I have given, that is, in respect of item (2)+, because the principles involved are the same is both?

+The amendment, also standing in the name of Mr Leong Keng Seng, reads as follows:-

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 1.

The Chairman: Yes, if it is convenient.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, while discussing this, I would like to draw the attention of the House to page 163 of the Estimates in respect of items (103) and (104) .

The House will notice a full vote in respect of the City Engineer and the Deputy City Engineer, but in respect of item (1) , which is now being discussed, and item (2) of subhead 1, there is a token vote. I raised this question previously in the last Estimates and the answer given was that the present Director of Public Works was being paid out of this vote on page 163. The question I then asked was whether it was intended that one of these posts was to be abolished. I understand that the incumbent of this post is being paid out of the vote on page 163 - he calls himself the Director of Public Works and not the City Engineer. I think the two departments, insofar as the City Engineer's Department in the City Council and the Director of Public Works are concerned, have been sufficiently integrated in fact. For the vote, either one or the other should disappear. But this is merely a formality. But what is more important is this. The holder of the post of Director of Public Works is not a permanent official, because the person who is now holding the post of Director of Public Works originally was the City Engineer, under the previous administration of the Mayor of Singapore, who was holding it on a temporary contract. So that legacy has been taken over by the Government. The Director of Public Works is also being held against the post on contract. Now directly under this officer, who is a contract officer, there are a number of officers, architects and engineers. The position is not satisfactory from a staffing point of view or from an establishment point of view. I know there is frustration there. I mean no disrespect to the holder of the post. There is absolutely no reason to doubt that he is an efficient man - I am not criticising that at all. But they feel that the situation of keeping such a person as head of the department for the last two or three years with permanent officials under him is a frustrating business. It is felt that this officer is not sufficiently interested in the department's staffing, because he is only a temporary officer himself.

6.15 p.m.

He is not a permanent officer. He has no obligations to the department. He does not feel that the department is his. And therefore I ask the Government to make up their minds - they must make this post a permanent post. Unless they make it a permanent post and give this officer a sense of responsibility for the department, there is going to be this frustration. The Public Works Department is a very important department because it is the spending arm of the Government. If the spending arm of the Government is not fully geared to all the projects, all the Government's intentions as set out in the Budget must necessarily fail. It is important that all the architects and engineers who are working under this officer should work happily. If they do not work happily, Mr Speaker, Sir, it is reflected in their work. That is only human. I do ask the Minister to look into this and come to some definite arrangement: either make this officer permanent, or if he cannot be made permanent, then some other permanent arrangement should be made. It is vital to the efficiency of the department, I think, that immediate consideration should be given.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I want to ask this: when will this post of Director of Public Works be filled? Why is it that after two years there is still no man capable of filling it? Is it because there is no local talent available?

The Chairman: I quite agree that the debate should range over the second amendment*. Does the Member for Serangoon Gardens wish to add to his remarks in regard to the second amendment?

• See footnote at col. 1804.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: (In Mandarin): I put the same question to the second amendment.

The Chairman: I take it the Member is not adding anything to his remarks. Mr Tan.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: I do not know what the Member for Serangoon Gardens is driving at. Perhaps he is not aware that the Director of Public Works as well as the Deputy Director are local men. If he says there is no local talent, then what does he mean?

For the information of the Member for Farrer Park, this is the first time I hear there is frustration amongst the architects and engineers who work under the Director and the Deputy Director of Public Works. I really do not believe the question of permanency or contract is going to affect them. But, Sir, the Director as well as the Deputy Director are on contract. As I said last year, the votes for the posts of Director and Deputy Director of Public Works are paid out from the City Engineer's vote. When local government integration comes into being, one of the posts will be abolished. As regards the Director's position with the Government, he is still on a three-year contract starting from early this year, and he still has two more years to go before permanency could be considered.

Dato Abdul Hamid: Is it not correct to say that the City Engineer or the present Director of Public Works also served the Government in the same capacity, that is to say, the contract mentioned by the Minister just now is a second contract?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: He served under the City Council from October 1958 on a two-year contract, and he has just got a new contract for three years.

Mr Rajah: Sir, the Minister says he does not believe there could be frustration. That is a happy frame of mind for the Minister to be in, because he must firmly believe in the officers under him. I congratulate him on that frame of mind. Sometimes, Sir, things get to other people's ears which do not get to the ears of the person most responsible for it. I personally know one or two cases which are frustrated. Sir, this business of working under a chief is a question of faith and loyalty. It is as simple as that and as difficult as that. If one owes loyalty to one's chief, one works oneself to death practically to get the job done. But if one has no loyalty, one has no faith, one has no friendship towards one's chief, one just works to rule, and we know what work to rule means. Nothing much gets done. That is the position so far as some people in the Public Works Department are concerned. I only mention this. But if the Minister thinks he does not want to investigate this further, well and good. But I do assure him that unless this loyalty moves from the staff to the head of the department, none of his works will be carried out in the way he hoped and as he intended. That is the point I wish to make.

The Minister for Health and Law (Mr K. M. Byrne): Mr Speaker, Sir, I disagree entirely with the submission of the Member for Farrer Park. The House must remember that senior appointments in the P.W.D. are filled by professional and technical men. The men employed in the P.W.D. are either civil engineers, quantity surveyors, architects, mechanical engineers or electrical engineers. These men respect the seniors in their profession. They place great reliance on the ability of their seniors, whether those seniors are contract officers or permanent officers. So long as their seniors are qualified and of considerable experience, they will accept instructions from them.

When I moved into the Ministry of Health, I found that there was a com paratively junior administrative officer acting as Permanent Secretary. There was also a very senior City Council medical officer in the Ministry, and he was taking instructions from this comparatively junior administrative officer. And under him there were professional men, doctors on the permanent establishment. That state of affairs did not lead to efficiency. The first thing I did was to get this comparatively junior administrative officer moved out of the Ministry immediately, and I had this City Council senior medical officer acting in the post of Director of Medical Services, with a chain of command from him right through the Ministry. The Ministry is working very efficiently now. The acting Director of Medical Services was a City Council officer. He was quite senior in the City Council service. In the process of integration, it might not be possible for him to be appointed substantively to the post of Director of Medical Services. Even if he was appointed substantively, he would be absorbed on his existing City Council term on a different salary scale. But what the Member for Farrer Park has stated is not how professional men behave. They are not concerned with the fact that their superiors are contract officers or not, so long as their superiors are qualified and competent men. Once that is established, I think they are quite happy to serve under competent contract officers.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I do not want to drag this on, for we might keep this going for well over an hour. I entirely agree with the Minister. I am also a professional man and I know what professional reactions are. We all know, but this is the point I want to make to the Minister: that the staff should be satisfied in their own minds that they have a head of department who will fight for them and look after their interests. And that frame of mind is more easily induced if the head of that department is a permanent official. That is the point I am trying to make, not the point about professional jealousy. Let me put this way. If he is a contract officer with one year more to go on his contract, he is not going to get too difficult with the Government. He is only human if he wants his contract renewed. He is looking over his shoulder all the time. To the extent that he is looking over his shoulder, he is not fighting the case of his professional officers. If once that feeling is created in a department, then efficiency is gone. That is all I say. I am as interested in maintaining efficiency of the Public Works Department as the Minister himself. We are all involved in this. Therefore, I ask the Minister to consider seriously making this post permanent. I am not saying anything else. I am not saying this contract officer is inefficient. I say: make this a permanent post. Let him not all the time think, "Is my contract going to be renewed next year or not?" He will then know what the position in the Government is, that after permanent appointment he will be protected by the Public Service Commission. But a contract officer is not.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: I do not agree with the Member for Farrer Park on this point, i.e. whether an officer is permanent or not does not ensure that he will fight for his staff. It is the worth of the man that counts. I can assure the Member for Farrer Park that the Director of Public Works is not currying favour with the Government whatsoever. In fact, we had to hold him back and offer him a contract with a little bit more to keep him there. To say that an officer of the calibre of the Director of Public Works would go to the extent of doing things just to please the Government and would not fight for his subordinates is really unfair.

Mr Byrne: Just one further point on what the Member for Farrer Park has said, Mr Speaker, Sir. There has been a very great burden of work thrown on to the Director of Public Works. The reason for that was the action taken by the Member for Hong Lim when he was Minister for National Development. For no reason at all, he abolished the post -

The Chairman: Order. That is exactly what I am trying to ask the Minister riot to do - to prolong the debate and so eat into the time.

Mr Rajah: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: I withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (2)* is not being moved.

• See footnote at col. 1804.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (99) of subhead 1.

I want to ask this: why should the expatriation pay be increased from $26,000 odd to $32,000 odd? And to whom is this expatriation pay to be paid?

6.30 p.m.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, it is a well-known fact that in the Public Works Department there is a shortage of senior engineers, architects, surveyors, electrical engineers and so on. It has been made known by the Minister for Finance time and again that we are recruiting officers from overseas, officers who have the requisite experience to hold responsible jobs in the Public Works Department. This provision is made in anticipation of the filling of such posts next year. It will be paid only to expatriate officers.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: I withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 6.

I want to ask about these holiday bungalows. When was this additional holiday bungalow, Cluny Lodge, built? Are these bungalows meant to be enjoy ed by the Ministers or the people?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, I think the Member for Serangoon Gardens is merely being frivolous about this matter. Cluny Lodge is one of the Government holiday bungalows. It is leased from the Singapore Harbour Board. The Government did not build it. This bungalow, like all the other holiday bungalows, is used by senior Government servants.

Mr Leong Keng Seng: I withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 9.

"Construction of Crematoria . . . $29,500". Mr Speaker, Sir, might I ask the Minister whether this is in respect of the crematoria at Upper Aljunied Road? If it is so, I know they have been partially constructed but they have not been completed. Could I ask the Minister whether the crematoria are now actually in use? If they are not in use, why are they not in use?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, the crematoria are not in use. In fact, they are still waiting for spares for the furnaces. The horticultural treatment is not completed and certain architectural features are not completed.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, if I may draw you into this debate. You remember the City Council debate on, this a long, long time ago. We had a lot of trouble over it and eventually we got the Council to approve it. We got the Government to come in on it on a sharing basis. Eventually it was built.. That was about-three or four years ago, if I remember correctly. At least from the outside, it looked as if everything was all right, and the corpses were being dealt with. But to and behold, it seems not to have been done. If the Minister says that the hold-up is due to shortage of some of the paraphernalia for the crematoria, can I ask him why all this has been held up? There must have been a vote for all this when the building was completed. Someone must have fallen down on the job. Mr Speaker, Sir, I am most certain that somebody must have fallen down on the job. If so, the Minister should take action against those people.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I can assure the Member for Farrer Park that I will do something about it.

Dato Abdul Hamid: Mr Speaker, Sir, could we not just scrap this scheme and use plain firewood?

Mr Rajah: I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Ahmad Jabri bin Mohammad Akib -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 10.

The Chairman: Inche Ahmad Jabri.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: Sir, I am not moving.

The Chairman: The Member is not moving.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 23 be reduced by $100.

Sir, I have with me here a copy of Cmd. Paper 22 of 1961 - the Interim Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Constructional Capacity of Singapore. Under the Public Works Department, Sir, the Report states that there is an extreme shortage among the senior members of the staff of the Public Works Department, especially in experienced engineers and architects. There is also an acute shortage among the junior architects and a shortage of electrical and mechanical engineers.

Sir, this Committee has made two recommendations. I wonder whether the Minister for National Development can say whether these recommendations are being implemented. One of the recommendations is that these technical experts should not be made to do administrative chores. They have recom mended, therefore, that the post of Administrative Officer in the Public Works Department, which was abolished in January 1958, be restored.

They also recommended that, since the present terms and conditions of service are not sufficiently favourable to attract experienced men, something should be done about senior posts. They also stated, Sir, that the Housing Board offers better terms than the Public Works Department. In view of the fact that the Public Works Department is the technical agent for various Ministries, it is very important, therefore, that steps must be taken to strengthen this Department, otherwise the money, that we vote for development may not be spent.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, when I answered the previous question, I had already touched on the question of shortage of technical staff, both senior and junior, in the Public Works Depart ment. As regards the Interim Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Constructional Capacity of Singapore, its recommendation to restore the post of Administrative Officer has been implemented.

Sir, we know that the remuneration offered in the Public Works Department does not attract young people who have come out from universities with their degrees. To this end we have already made adjustments to the point of entry of such salary scales. I am told by the Director of Public Works that this move of ours has attracted quite a lot of applicants for jobs in the Public Works Department. But these are people who have just come out from universities and it would be two or three years before they would be of much use in carrying out Government development projects. I can assure the Member for Tanglin that we are paying great attention to the recruitment of staff in the Public Works Department so that the development projects that we have in the Four-Year Plan will be fulfilled.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: Mr Speaker, Sir, this is only an Interim Report. I wonder if the Minister could say .whether this Commission is still functioning, because several of its members are from the Barisan Sosialis group. It may well be that if I do not remind the Minister that the work is important, then maybe the Commission might be abolished. I suggest that the Commission be allowed to continue. If the Government wants to substitute some other people for their ex-colleagues, still they should not abolish the Commission. But we should wait until the Final Report is published.

The Chairman: The Minister may wish to give an answer later.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, I am not the one to appoint this Commission. I am not aware whether it is going on. But if the Member for Tanglin will refer to the Ministry of Finance, he will get the answer.

Mr Rajah: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Tanglin has made the point, at least it seems to give me that impression, that the Housing Board and the P.W.D. are in competition for a small number of a particular type of professional officers, and that the Housing Board is winning all the time. If it is correct, Mr, Speaker, Sir, it is a very serious matter, I think the Ministry should try and hold a balance between the P.W.D. and the Housing Board. It could well be that that is one of the reasons why the Housing Board is doing so well and the P.W.D. is doing very little.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, competition is not just between the P.W.D. and the Housing Board but also by other countries. That is where the difficulty comes from.

An hon. Member: You do not pay them enough.

Dr Thio Chan Bee: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $8,523,910 for Head 23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

6.45 p.m.

Head 24-

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 2.

I think, Sir, the next amendment [Amendment (2)]* is related. It might be convenient to move the two amendments at the same time.

*Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 2.

The Chairman: Is it "Public Utility Services"?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Yes, Sir. Item (3) of subhead 2 - the same subhead, but different items.

The Chairman: Order. But are they related?

Mr Tan Kia Gan: They are related.

The Chairman: The Minister says they are related, so it is convenient for the Member to deal with both amendments.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Thank you. Sir, this subhead is in respect of Mainten ance of Government Quarters, Barracks and Grounds. Item (1) is in respect of wages and salaries, which shows that there is a 100 per cent increase on the previous year's estimates. In regard to item (3), i.e., Public Utility Services, it is also more than doubled. Can I ask the Minister whether this is due to a large increase in the number of Government Quarters, Barracks and Grounds to be maintained, or is it due to an increase in costs?

The Chairman: The Question is, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 2." The debate may range over item (3).

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, there is no increase of quarters or staff under this provision. The current provisions for maintenance of City Council and Government quarters were given under separate subheads of Head 24 of the 1961 Estimates. In respect of Government quarters, they are chargeable to Head 24, subhead 2, whereas for City Council quarters they are chargeable under subheads 15, 23, 29, 33, 35, 39 and 42 of Head 24 of the 1961 Estimates. However, in the 1962 Estimates, these separate provision have been amalgamated into a bloc subhead for the maintenance of both City Council and Government quarters.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, in view of the explanation given, may I withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (2)* is not being moved. Amendment (3)+, Tun Lim.

*Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 2.

The amendment reads as follows:

+That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 8.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I am not moving. It is related.

The Chairman: Amendment (4)++?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: It is related.

The Chairman: The Member is not moving. Amendment (5)�?

The amendments read as follows:

++ That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (4) of subhead 8.

� That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 9.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: It is related.

The Chairman: The Member is not moving.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 15.

Mr Speaker, it concerns, I am told, the maintenance of public street lighting. I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to one point, i.e., that I believe that there should not only be public street lighting, but kampong lighting as well in the lorongs that have been made by the Government. Most of the kampong lighting facilities, however, have overhead wires which are naked. There was an accident in the past because these naked wires snapped, as a result, a child in the kampong was injured. If we do wish to provide lighting facilities in the kampongs, I feel the safety of the kampong folks must also be taken into account. One of the steps which I think should be taken, if there is no other alternative but to use naked wires overhead, is, at least to fell the adjacent trees. Unfortunately, the lighting facilities have already been installed in the kampongs. The trees, however, have not been felled. In the interests of public safety in the kampongs I think this matter should receive serious consideration from the department concerned. At least those trees which are considered dangerous must be felled or other alternative arrangements made.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, I agree with the Member for the Southern Islands that the welfare and the safety of the kampong folks should be safeguarded and, in this respect, Sir, if he could bring specific examples of where the danger would come from, I will certainly look into it.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Is it the intention of the Minister that I should submit specific cases before the Government will take action to fell these trees which are in line with the wires? For the safety of the people, I think it is not enough just to wait for reports of such incidents. It is the duty of the Government to investigate where the kampong lightings have been installed and, where dangerous trees are found, action should be taken to fell them.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: I think the Member for the Southern Islands thought I was not going to do something about it. When I said I agreed with him, I meant that something would be done in general in the rural areas where there is street lighting to see that if there is any tree that is endangering the wires, or anything of the kind connected with street lighting, then something would be done. I was just asking him to supply me with specific examples of places he knows where things could be done immediately.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I am satisfied with the explanation, and I assure the Minister I will give him my fullest co-operation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Tun Lim Yew Hock -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 16.

The Chairman: Tun Lim?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I am not moving.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 24 be reduced by $100.

This concerns the total expenditure for Head 24. I am subject to correction, Mr Speaker. I wish to get an explanation. In this expenditure there are shown items concerning wages to each subhead amounting to not less than $4 million. I am told that this expenditure is from the previous City Council administration which has been integrated into the Government departments. Concerning the expenditure, I think the items on wages could be included under the head Personal Emoluments - O.C.A.R. We want to know the holders of the various posts so that they will be put under one specific head. I hope the Minister will be able to explain.

Mr Tan Kia Gan: Sir, this has to do with the Local Government Integration Bill again. Although the City Council departments are physically integrated, its Budget is not integrated yet. When integration comes about, the suggestion of the Member for the Southern Islands will be implemented.

The Chairman: The matter could be investigated by the Estimates Committee if necessary as to the way the Budget should be presented.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): In view of that explanation, Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $18,669,550 for Head 24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 25-

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Leong Keng Seng -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (1) of subhead 1.

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 1.

The Chairman: Mr Leong?

Mr Leong Keng Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have no intention of moving these two amendments.

The following amendment stood in the names of Mr A. P. Rajah, Tun Lim Yew Hock and Mr Leong Keng Seng -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 1.

The Chairman: Mr Rajah?

Mr Rajah: I am not moving.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 1.

Sir, the Minister for Health and Law was previously the Minister for Labour and Law and he had the experience of one Political Secretary who went against his own policies. It was quite a sad experience. Then he was transferred to the Ministry of Health and Law. Not long after the transfer, he had another sad experience with another Political Secretary, who resigned. May I ask, Sir, whether the Minister considers, after his sad experience with Political Secretaries, he wants to keep the vote and have another sad experience with another Political Secretary?

The Chairman: The Question is,

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 1."

Mr Leong Keng Seng? He is not speaking.

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not propose to add to all that has been said on the subject of Political Secretaries but I do think that in the Ministry of Health, there really is no point in having a Political Secretary there, and when the next opportunity offers itself, I shall recommend that this post be deleted.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, in view of that, may I beg leave to withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Tun Lim Yew Hock -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (5) of subhead 1."

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, I am not moving it.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $100.*

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Low Por Tuck.

Sir, we see now that the once Minister for Labour and Law has been transferred to the Ministry of Health. I am just wondering whether there was any grievance against him as the Minister for Labour.

The Chairman: Order. The Member for Queenstown starts off with being out of order. He has now moved an amendment,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 25 be reduced by $100. And therefore he must debate the .general policies of the Ministry. If he wishes to ask the Minister for Health whether he is keeping in better health in this Ministry than in the last, he ought to have moved an amendment to item (1) of subhead 1. That has passed.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Sir, I was just wondering because previously the Member for Hong Lim had said that the Minister for Health was made a scapegoat.

The Chairman: Order. We must not have a debate on those lines. I would now like a debate on the general principles of Government policy on the Ministry of Health and Law.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Sir, I will leave it out because I was thinking that it might be on the subject of the Minister for Health and Law.

I want to speak on the congestion in the Out-patient Departments. As we know, the Out-patient Departments in the hospitals have been overworked. It was the general policy of the P.A.P. Government to make sure that if they ever came into power, the facilities for the Out-patient Departments would be improved so that the general health of the people would not only be looked after but that it would also be attended to swiftly and efficiently. Now because of the unfulfilled promises of 1960, as I have said, $3.7 million from the Ministry of Health has not been used. As a result of that, the out-patient service has not been improved. There was general talk of having combined clinics, poly-clinics and the Kallang out door dispensaries. But what do we see? Only a token sum has been spent on all this. In the case of the combined clinics, two are supposed to have been built; but one was actually a conversion from some other building - I believe it was a community centre. Only one, Sir, was actually built. This shows what service the P.A.P. Government has given to the people of Singapore as regards outpatient service.

I am just wondering, Sir, if the Government would care to look into these matters and make sure that the out-patient service would be improved so that all the people - especially the poor - in Singapore would not have to wait for hours and hours for treatment.

Another point I wish to bring up is this matter of direction finding. I see it is already earmarked in the Development Estimates, but this scheme was raised by Assemblymen in the P.A.P. quite some time ago. I will explain. A lot of people who visit the General Hospital for the first time do not know how to go to the Surgical Wards, Medical Wards, Orthopaedic Wards, Out-patient Department or even the Mortuary. What we would like, Sir, is that the Ministry take note of this and when they really start on this direction - finding scheme - if that is the actual scheme that is earmarked in the Development Estimates - then we hope they will make large simple signs or symbols so that any person will be able to find the place he wants to go to. We want to make sure that any person - whether he be Chinese, English, Malay or Indian - will be able to locate the place that he wishes to go to. If, for example, we could have a large drawing of an eye for the Eye Department, everybody will be helped in finding the way.

Another point which I would like to raise is the dental service. As we know, there is only one adult dental service in the whole of Singapore. It is centred in the General Hospital. We have seen crowds waiting from early morning until the afternoon to be attended to, and we know of cases where people have to wait for at least one year in order to get their dentures made. We know that certain people like the Minister for Health could get things done more easily because he has enough "pull". But there are a lot of people who have to wait for a very long time. We hope the Minister will look into this matter and expedite all services to; the public as regards the Dental Department. Of course, this is partly due to the shortage of dental officers and dental technicians. We would suggest that in future, if the Government should decide on any district hospitals or poly-clinics, a dental wing be put in so that everybody would be served more easily. As regards the dental service, I would also like to mention that there is a complaint of a lack of post-graduate opportunities for advancement for the whole Dental Service as well as for the technicians. There have been no post-graduate study opportunities for dental officers since 1959. As a result, a number of them have resigned, and in such a small dental service, the small number who resigned has caused a certain amount of dislocation in the service. We hope the Minister will look into that.

I would like to touch on a very unhappy subject, and that is in respect of the Japanese doctors. It is a subject in which the Minister for Finance is interested.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Why?

Dr Lee Siew Choh: There is a lot of unhappiness and misunderstanding at the present moment amongst the local staff in the hospitals. They find that the Israeli doctors are doing good work and that they are really worth the money paid to them. But the same cannot be said for the Japanese doctors. I do not mean we should emphasise the fact that they are Japanese, but it just happens that they are Japanese. I will give you one example, Sir. There is one doctor now in the Pathological Laboratory who has no experience of the work he is supposed to do. In fact - so far as I understand, Sir - he is not up to local standards. He has been used to doing a certain type of work that requires electron-microscopy, but unfortunately in Singapore they have to use only the ordinary light microscope and in this particular field of work, he is not as efficient or as qualified as our own local men. In fact, Sir, this particular doctor is now doing post-mortem work for the first time. In other words, we are inviting doctors from Japan in order that we may train them. On top of that, Sir, they also have no experience of medico-legal work, so that in anything concerning the courts, they have to ask for advice. In fact, this particular person was transferred to the Trafalgar Home. He was found unfit and sent back again to the Pathological Laboratory.

An hon. Member: To Woodbridge Hospital.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Of course, the Japanese doctors know a smattering of English, but that is not good enough. Their clinical work is not up to, standard, so much so that they cannot even do night duty because it entails a certain amount of work in which they are not experienced. Therefore, we have these doctors from outside getting paid more than our local doctors. But they do not have the experience of our local doctors and they come here to be trained by our local doctors! Surely, Sir, this is entirely different from what we have been told.

7.15 p.m.

We are not against the principle of recruitment of foreign doctors. In fact, we would advise that if such is necessary for certain grades and if no local man is found suitable, then a foreign man should be enlisted to help us in our work. But we urge the Government to make sure that if they want to recruit people from outside Singapore, they recruit the proper men, men who can teach us something. Do not let them be men whom we have to teach.

There is another point about these foreign doctors, Sir, and it is this: that in any department a certain number of people [Laughter].

The Chairman: Order. Perhaps the Member for Cairnhill would like to change his seat!

Dr Lee Siew Choh: There is another grouse, Sir, about these Japanese doctors. A certain number of doctors are assigned to every Unit, and if a non-Singapore doctor is assigned to that particular Unit, it means one local doctor is deprived of the opportunity of learning things in that particular Unit. We realise, Sir, that non-local, doctors are supernumerary. But in spite of that, only a certain number of people can be assigned to any one Unit or any one Department, and because of, say X occupying the place in a particular Unit a local doctor is denied that opportunity. And it means, Sir, the loss of opportunity of training and experience for the local men. We hope the Minister will also look into that.

Recently, Sir, a letter has been sent inviting all nursing sisters who resigned as a result of the pay cut to rejoin the service. They have been offered the same basic salary as when they left the service. To that, we agree. It is a very good thing. But -

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, on a point of elucidation.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Yes.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Could the Member for Queenstown tell me on what criterion he would distinguish a nursing sister who resigned as a result of the pay cut, from one who resigned as a result of marriage, or from one who resigned for other reasons?

Dr Lee Siew Choh: That is no elucidation, Sir. He has puzzled me more.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I am asking you to distinguish -

The Chairman: Order. Let us not waste time.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: But these nursing sisters, Sir, are only asked to do duty from 8 o'clock in the morning to 4 o'clock in the afternoon, whereas those who have been faithful to the service and who have remained in spite of the pay cut are asked to do night duty. Now, we are not going into the pros and cons of this matter, Sir. Probably there are reasons for it; we do not know. We hope the Minister can enlighten us. But this is discrimination, and any discrimination can only engender resentment. Let us hope this resentment will not cause more resignations later on, because it only means that our health service will be depleted of more sisters and more nurses. Although this seems to be a small matter, we hope it will not go unnoticed by the Minister.

We also understand, Sir, that the nursing service at the present moment is actually short of staff nurses. Since such a generous offer has been given to the nursing sister, would the Minister not also consider making the same offer to those staff nurses who left because of the pay cut and who wish to rejoin?

I have only one more matter to raise, Sir, and this I hope the Minister could explain, especially in regard to, this so-called merger. We understand, Sir, that Federal citizens can get permanent employment in the Singapore medical service, but this does not hold true for the Singapore citizen who wants to get into the Federation medical service. There is, therefore, no equality as regards opportunities offered to the Singapore citizen and' the Federation citizen. If the Minister for Health and Law would care to get details from me later on, I am quite willing to give him examples and the names of people, especially in the dental service, who have not been able to get jobs in Singapore because those jobs have been taken up by Federation citizens, and yet Singapore citizens have not been able to get a chance in the Federation medical service. This alone shows, Sir, how important it is that we get equal citizenship rights.

The Chairman: Order. I hope the hon. Member for Queenstown is not going on that tack. The complaint, I think, should be confined to his allegation that Singapore citizens cannot be employed in the Health Department in the Federation. That is all.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Of course, the Minister for Health and Law will not deny what I have said, Sir,I can give him facts if he likes.

Mr Low Por Tuck: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, on the, health policy, we cannot forget what the P.A.P. promised the electorate in the 1959 general elections. This could be read from the pamphlet of the P.A.P. There is a statement on the Government's health policy made by the present Minister for Home Affairs to the people during election time. He said:

'Within the next five years, the Health policy of the P.A.P. government will be to make improvements to the existing health system so that the benefit from public expenditure on health will go principally to the board masses of Singapore. It cannot be denied that in Singapore the medical situation leaves room for improvement.'

This passage is very important. If we pay attention to Government's work in regard to health, we can easily find out that Government has done only 20 per cent of the work as provided in the Estimates. In 1959 it promised the people many things in regard to health, but the Government has not carried out its promises.

The other point I want to mention is that a few months ago, strange to say, there was a lot of mosquitoes around my house. I remember I raised this point with the Minister concerned. I asked him whether this was the result of abolishing the Anti-Mosquito Unit. Otherwise how could there be so many mosquitoes around my area? So I hope the Minister will pay special attention to this point, because it does not only concern me but some other areas may also be affected by mosquitoes.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng rose -

The Chairman: Perhaps the Minister should be given time to reply. If there is any further time, then perhaps the Member for Mountbatten can raise her point, unless it is very brief.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng: Yes. Mr Speaker, Sir, I am just trying to be help ful. There was mention about helping the poor people to find their way to the different departments. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to what is done in S.A.T.A., which he might like to adopt. They just have lines - black lines, white lines, red lines, for instance - that lead to the different departments. And the poor people have just to be told by the doctor, "Follow the black line" or "Follow the red line and it will lead you to the right department."

The second point is this. I just want to ask the Minister what he intends to do or has he done anything about the dirt in the drains that I have complained about?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will first deal with the complaint by the Member for Queenstown that though we have been in the government for the past two years, their has been very little done in the way of building clinics, outpatient clinics and combined clinics. Sir, he must remember that a doctor was the Parliamentary Secretary in the Ministry of Health. He was the political head who must bear the responsibility for all this, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: The Minister.

Mr Byrne: No, Mr Speaker, Sir,I have looked through the files and I know the position. I shall indicate what has happened, Mr Speaker, Sir. The only clinic we have completed is the clinic at Lim Ah Pin Road in Upper Serangoon. There was a community centre in Lim Ah Pin Road and next door to it there was an ante-natal clinic.

7.30 p.m.

An approach was made to me, when I was Minister for Labour, to release that community centre and convert it into an outpatient clinic. That was done. That community centre was given to the Medical Department and it was converted into a clinic. By the time the conversion was completed, my Ministry was able to build a new community centre opposite Lim Ah Pin Road. That was about the 40th community centre we built.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the other clinic that is being built is the clinic in Still Road. It will provide outpatient as well as maternity and child welfare services. There will be a dental hut in that clinic.

Mr Speaker, Sir, since I have been in the Ministry, I have met all the doctors concerned with planning. We have devised plans for stepping up the building of outpatient clinics. We have zoned the island off into five major districts, with the main thoroughfares as dividers. One zone will be all the area east of Geylang/Changi Roads.

Mr Speaker, Sir, at the present moment, extension work is going on at the Kallang/Mountbatten Road Clinic. That used to be the old Civil Airport canteen. It has been extended to double its size. It copes with about 600 patients every day. It is the biggest outdoor clinic after the General Hospital Outpatient Clinic.

We are also building outpatient clinics at this very moment. Plans are afoot to transform the Siglap Community Centre into an outpatient clinic. We have plans also to build another outpatient clinic in Somapah Road at Changi. The Still Road clinic is in the course of construction at the present moment. Once we get those clinics built, we will zone off the East coast area, so that all persons who want treatment and who live in that area will receive their outpatient treatment at the clinics within that area.

We propose also to build clinics in the housing estates. One will be built in Aljunied Road Estate. In the Serangoon Road district, we propose to .build a clinic at Yio Chu Kang. There is a very small and old clinic now at the junction of Paya Lebar and Yio Chu Kang Roads. But that junction is going to be turned into a roundabout very soon, and we will probably lose that clinic. We, therefore, propose to build another one further up the road. Further up in Kampong Kayu, a clinic has already been built. We propose also to build a clinic in the Thomson Road area, an outpatient clinic in the grounds of the Thomson Road Hospital. In the Sembawang district an outpatient clinic will be built.

In the Bukit Timah area, Mr Speaker, Sir, there is already a small outpatient unit, and a maternity and child welfare clinic at the corner of Bukit Timah Road and the junction of Bukit Batok Road. It is proposed to build a big outpatient clinic in the vacant ground behind the maternity and child welfare clinic at Bukit Timah Road. There is already an outpatient clinic in Bukit Panjang. We are also going into J wrong Road. We propose to build a small outpatient clinic at the 16th mile. The Thong Ho Village Community Centre is being converted now into a maternity and child welfare and outpatient clinic. Along Pasir Panjang Road, there is a maternity and child welfare clinic at Kampong Kay Hai Road. An outpatient clinic is at the 5th milestone, Pasir Panjang. We propose to build another new outpatient clinic in the area of the Harbour Board. Once we get these clinics built, we will zone off these five areas, and require all the people who need treatment to have it at the clinics in one of the five areas where they live. That will reduce the pressure on the Out patient Clinic in the General Hospital. The Outpatient Clinic at the General Hospital attends to about 3,000 patients a day. It is very congested and treats besides outpatients, patients in the General Hospital itself.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in addition to this unhappy state of affairs in the outpatient clinics, there is also tremendous congestion in the various medical and surgical units in the General Hospital, so much so that these units themselves have their own problems as far as outpatients are concerned. These medical units have to have their own in-service outpatient facilities. So to relieve that congestion, we are going to provide a third medical unit.

We propose also to get all the chronic sick out of the General Hospital into the new Chronic Sick Hospital which is to be built in the Woodbridge Hospital grounds. In fact there are two vacant wards which we are converting right now into a chronic sick hospital So, that would relieve the bed space in the General Hospital.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope in the course of this year the situation will have considerably improved as far as outpatient facilities are concerned.

Now as to direction finding notices, Mr Speaker, Sir. The suggestion has been made that I should have a look at the direction notices in S.A.T.A. I hope to go round and see what these notices are like. We might introduce these improvements in the General Hospital and in the other hospitals.

As far as the dental services are concerned, Mr Speaker, Sir, it is true most of the facilities are at present concentrated in the General Hospital, although, there has been some dispersal. There have been dental chairs provided in community centres. I have seen dental chairs for children at the Sims Avenue Community Centre as well as at the Buona Vista Community Centre and at the schools. I will have to look into this matter. In the short time that I have been in the Ministry, I have had such a lot of work to do that I really have not had the time to give this my personal attention. But I can assure the Member for Queenstown that this question will not be overlooked. I will look into it immediately. I was not aware that there was a complaint that there were not sufficient post-graduate scholarships for dental officers. I will look into this matter also.

As for the Japanese doctors, Mr Speaker, Sir, I know it is true this has caused considerable dissatisfaction amongst our local doctors. Mr Speaker, Sir, at one time there was a shortage of highly skilled medical officers. We thought we should try to get specialists from overseas to come and train our local officers. We have been able to recruit two, very skilled Israeli doctors who are holding specialist superscale appointments in the Bacteriological and the Pathology Departments and are doing good service there. They have improved conditions in these Departments.

A third Israeli doctor is serving as a Senior Registrar. We had hoped to, get four Senior Registrars from Israeli. In point of fact, we have only got one. Another Israeli doctor was offered appointment, but he has turned down the offer. I do, not think there is any possibility of getting any more Israeli doctors. As far as Japanese doctors are concerned, we have been able to get five of them. From the reports I have received, one of them is of Senior Registrar standard. I do not think the others are of Senior Registrar standard. At most, they are of the same standard as our medical officers.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: Below.

Mr Byrne: With regard to the doctor from the Pathology Department, as soon as I heard he was a misfit there, I took steps to send him to Trafalgar Home. I understand he is a skin specialist. One of the Japanese doctors is doing very well indeed. He has received very good reports. He is in the Orthopaedic Unit. As a result of the representation I had, received from our local doctors, I met the Japanese Consul and explained the position to him. I told him that if any more doctors, were to come from Japan, I wanted an assurance that we would get doctors of the competence and experience we require. He assured me that if the Japanese sent us any more doctors, they would be of the competence and experience that we require.

Mr Speaker, Sir, these Japanese doctors have come in to help us and are here through no fault of their own. We have offered them Senior Registrar terms and they get on well with our doctors. They are not blocking the promotions of our local doctors. They are filling supernumerary posts of Senior Registrars. Mr Speaker, Sir, we have 32 posts of Senior Registrar on our establishment dispersed throughout our hospitals. We have 18 senior local officers who have already been appointed Senior Registrars. We have another 17 local doctors who have just come back with the requisite specialist qualifications and who are queuing up for appointment as Senior Registrars. These vacancies are being circulated.

We have provided funds to employ all our doctors who have received higher training abroad as Senior Registrars. They cannot complain they are being done out of jobs by the presence of these Israeli doctors and Japanese, doctors now in service.

The next matter raised was the recruitment of sisters at new rates of pay. Mr Speaker, Sir, we have an authorised establishments of 211 posts for nursing sisters, and the number of persons in these posts is 136, leaving a vacancy position of 75. In the establishment for trained nurses, there is an authorised establishment of 1,175 posts.. We have 1,021 persons in these posts, leaving a vacancy position of 154.

7.45 p.m.

With the expansion in the medical service, Mr Speaker, Sir, we envisage that we would need to create another 14 posts of nursing sister, so that the vacancy position will be 89 for nursing sisters. For trained nurses, we would need to create another 144 posts, so that the vacancy position will be 298.

Sir, we also have an establishment of 550 assistant nurses. We have 530 persons in those posts, leaving 20 posts vacant. With such a big vacancy position, something has had to, be done to attract back into the service all those who had left the service. With that end in view, we sent out invitations asking all sisters and staff nurses who had left the service to come back. Many of them had left the service on marriage and we thought that if we offered them employment in the outpatient services where they would not have to do night work, they would be prepared to return to the service. Seventy letters were sent out and to date, Mr Speaker, Sir, we have been able to re-employ 12 temporary sisters and 8 temporary staff nurses. One more temporary sinter and three more temporary staff nurses have told us they will be prepared to come back at the beginning of next year. So that in that effort we were able to get only 20 more persons into the service. We have had to offer them some inducement to come back. We have offered that all those who have had service of less than a year would come back on their previous salary plus the cost of living allowance they get now. All those who had left the service between one and three years should get one additional increment as an inducement to come back. All those who had left the service for over three years should receive two additional increments. With this inducement, Mr Speaker, Sir, none of them who come back into the service can ever supersede those who are at present in the service. So that those who are in service cannot complain that these inducements are unfair. We have had to offer this inducements and, even with this offer, Mr Speaker, Sir, we have only been able to get 20 back into the service. I have already indicated what the vacancy position is - 89 vacancies for sisters and 298 vacancies for staff nurses.

The Chairman: If the Minister will notice, there are two minutes left.

Mr Byrne: I see. Well, the last point, Mr Speaker, Sir, is the question of the appointment of Federal citizens. This affects not only doctors and nurses, but it also affects other officers in the civil service. The rules for entry are such that only Federal citizens can enter the Federal civil service, whereas in Singapore, those who are Federal citizens can also enter the Singapore civil service. I have to answer the point the Member for Queenstown has made just now. He says we are taking Federal citizens into the Singapore civil service in such numbers that our own locally qualified persons are being done out of jobs. That is not true as far as the medical service is concerned.

Dr Lee Siew Choh: If it is true - then?

Mr Byrne: If you say it is true, I shall first have to check up on it. But it is certainly not true as far as the medical service is concerned.

The Chairman: Order. Time has expired. Does the Member for Queenstown wish to take a vote?

Dr Lee Siew Choh: I beg to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $3,904,200 for Head 25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 26-

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 26 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (335) of subhead 1.

They have been talking of doctors, nurses, sisters, and now we come to matrons -

An hon. Member: What about brothers?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: A vote of $18,000 is asked for, that is to say, the maximum of the time-scale for Matrons, Grade II. In 1961, the vote was only $15,600, but for 1962, it is going to be $18,000, that is to say, for each of the two matrons, an increase of $100 a month is proposed. Will the Minister please explain how this situation has arisen?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, there must be an explanation for all this. I must confess I am rather surprised to see such a big bump up myself.

The Chairman: Perhaps the Minister in charge of Establishment might give the answer.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I am also convinced there is an answer, but I am as much in the dark as the Minister and, therefore, I do not know if it will satisfy the Member for Cairnhill if we say, "All right, let there be a $10 reduction in the vote."

The Chairman: No, the Minister cannot say that.

An hon. Member: How can that be?

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, it seems that both the Ministers are having difficulty answering a simple question. The only possible answer is that the matrons, according to the vote, have resigned and two new matrons are put in. But what I cannot understand is why the matrons should be put in on the top of the time-scale?

Mr Byrne: Mr Speaker, Sir, so far as I am aware, there are two vacancies actually. At the Tan Tock Seng Hospital there is one post of Grade I Matron and two posts of Grade II Matron. I know the post of Grade I Matron has been substantively filled, and one of the two vacancies of Grade II Matron is being used to pay for a Grade II Matron at the Kandang Kerbau Hospital. But I am really unable to say how the salary should have been bumped up this way - from $15,600 to $18,000.

The Chairman: Perhaps the Minister could give the information later on?

Mr Byrne: I will look into the matter and give the Member the explanation, if there is an explanation.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, in order not to cause a breakdown in the medical service, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 26 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (385) of subhead 1.

This is another peculiar situation,. Sir. This is in respect of Matrons again. In the previous case there was a bumping up, but in this case it remains so stationary that no increment is given. Can the Minister explain that? [Laughter].

The Chairman: Order.

Mr Byrne: This is another establishment problem. I shall look into it myself, Mr Speaker, Sir. I have been aware of many similar items, but it is very difficult to give an immediate explanation -

Mr Rajah: Perhaps that is the top of her time-scale?

The Chairman: Is that the answer?

Mr Byrne: No. It is not the top of the scale.

Tun Lim Yew Hock: Sir, in order not to make life more difficult for the Minister, may I withdraw?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Inche Ahmad Jabri bin Mohammed Akib -

The Chairman: Inche Ahmad Jabri?

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr. Speaker, Sir, because time is very short, I ask for a written answer from the Minister in regard to amendments (3)* and (4)+. (In English) I am giving notice now, Sir.

The Chairman: The Member is not moving?

Inche Ahmad Jabri: I am not moving.

The Chairman: The Member is not moving but hopes the minister will give him a written reply.

Mr Byrne: Yes.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 26 be reduced by $100.

I notice there are many posts where salaries are reduced from 1961. Not less than 25 posts have had their salaries so reduced. Under subhead 116, there is a sizable reduction. I would like to know what it is that causes this sizable reduction. If we study the Estimates carefully, we will find there are more of such instances of big reductions, but there is no time for such a careful review; so I pose that question to the Minister.

Apart from that, with regard to the maintenance of vehicles -

The Chairman: The Question is, "That the total sum to be allocated for Head 26 be reduced by $100." Now, if the hon. Member wishes to pinpoint certain items, he ought to have given notice of amendments of those items. He cannot now ask for information about certain items. He must now touch on the general policy of the department.

Inche Ahmad Jabri: (In Malay): Because this matter would possibly cause uneasiness among workers in this department. I assume these people have had their salaries reduced. So if people who have no proper qualifications are appointed, then that is not in the interest of health. I want the Minister concerned to give an explanation of these matters for the benefit of the public.

The Chairman: Time has expired for the item. If the Minister considers a ministerial statement is necessary on that particular point, then at 2.30 p.m. on Monday, he will be able to make a ministerial statement.

Mr Byrne: I can answer it.

The Chairman: It is too late now. An answer could be given by the Minister by way of a ministerial statement at 2.30 p.m. on Monday. Does the Member for the Southern Islands wish to take a vote?

Inche Ahmad Jabri: No.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $35,453,140 for Head 26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

And it being 8 p.m. Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the Assembly.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress on the Main Estimates, and ask leave to sit again on Monday, 11th December.

Mr Speaker: Monday it shall be.