ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR 1967

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.37 p.m.

Head 0601 -

The Chairman: We are now on Head 0601 - Ministry of Education. Amendment No. (l)* Inche Mahmud Awang. He is not present. Mr Sim Boon Woo, amendment No. (2) .

• Amendment No. (1) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0601 be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead 1002.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0601 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2116.

Sir, it is encouraging to note an increase of $200,000 for the vote for Contribution to Lembaga Gerakan Pelajaran Dewasa. The teachers who are teaching in these classes are teachers by profession during the day. You will agree with me that thousands of H.S.C. or middle school students who have passed their examinations are unemployed at the moment. I am wondering whether the Minister will give this teaching opportunity at the Lembaga Gerakan Pelajaran Dewasa to these people who are badly in need of a job, instead of to these well-paid teachers. I just want to know whether the Minister will consider this suggestion.

Mr Tang See Chim (Choa Chu Kang): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to ask the Minister whether he is aware that adult education in Singapore is a self-liquidating process, that is to say, the better you train and the more effective you carry out your job, the sooner you go out of business! In fact, by the present going, I think the Adult Education Board is doing very well, and here I must pay a tribute to the Board. All I want to know is what plans the Minister has for the future of the Board.

The Minister for Education (Mr Ong Pang Boon): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Adult Education Board not only conducts literacy and language classes, but also other extra-mural courses to cater for the vocational, civic and recreational interests of the public. With our present trend of education and the ability to provide universal primary education to all our school-age pupils, without compulsion, there may come a time when there may not be a demand for the literacy and language classes conducted by the Board. But I do not think the Board will go into liquidation, because there are other activities currently run by the Board.

I agree with the Member for Changi that there are large numbers of unemployed young people in Singapore and that the Government should, wherever possible, provide gainful employment for them. It is in line with this policy that towards the end of 1964 the Adult Education Board was asked by the Ministry of Education to consider providing opportunities for employment for the unemployed. However, since unemployment is more acute amongst the Chinese than the English medium, a pilot plan was implemented in 1965 mainly directed at the Chinese medium to replace 25 per cent of its teachers by qualified but unemployed persons who have the following qualifications:

(a) School leavers with Chinese medium school certificate or Higher School Certificates with the required minimum educational qualifications for recruitment as teachers-in-training;

(b) Graduates of Nanyang University;

(c) Experienced and/or trained teachers who have been retired on grounds of age or redundancy.

In 1966 the Board organised a short but intensive course to train them. This training course was conducted by the staff of the Teachers' Training College and the practical teaching was supervised by Inspectors of Schools and T.T.C. lecturers. An examination was also conducted at the end of the course, and only successful candidates were retained in the part-time employment offered by the Board.

At present there are 57 out of a total or 147 teachers, or nearly 38 per cent, in the literacy and language classes, and 75 out of 165 teachers, or nearly 45 per cent, in the secondary evening classes who are recruited from the unemployed. Furthermore, all the 26 second-language teachers in the Secondary I and literacy and language classes in the English medium also came from the same source. However, part-time trained teachers from Government or Government-aided schools, because of their experience and professional training, are retained in the Board to teach senior classes, whereas those recruited from the unemployed, after they have been given an intensive training course, are teaching only the Secondary I, II and literacy and language classes.

2.45 p.m.

It is not possible to replace all with this category if the aim is to maintain the standard of the classes organised by the Board. It is envisaged that in 1967 the scheme already implemented in the Chinese medium will be further extended to other language media and to recruit about 150 unemployed who have the necessary qualifications to teach in the literacy and language classes in the English medium. It is also planned that about 45 part-time clerical assistants now working in the Board are to be gradually replaced by full-time officers recruited from the unemployed who have the necessary qualifications.

Mr S. Rajoo (Farrer Park): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister for Education a question. Will he confirm that the certificates issued by the Adult Education Board to classes like Secondary I, II and III will be treated at par with the certificates issued by the Government or Government-aided schools in order to help people who look for jobs?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: The certificates issued by the Adult Education Board for Secondary I, II and III will certainly be the same as those issued by Government or aided schools.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: In view of the explanation by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0601 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2117.

Sir, the contribution to the Technical College, Kuala Lumpur, is reduced by $1,400 for the year 1967. This is indeed quite a good sign. But the Minister for Education has stated in this House that most of the students studying in our university and our college are from Malaysia. However, the Malaysian Government has not given any grant to our higher educational body. I think it is high time we did likewise. Should the Minister fail to give a satisfactory answer, I am not going to withdraw my amendment.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, although it is true that the Malaysian Government has not given any contribution towards educating their students at Nanyang University or Ngee Ann College, nevertheless, I am sure the Member for Changi will agree with me that we are not going to follow in their footsteps. The provision in the 1967 Budget is required for payment to the Malaysian Government towards the cost of five students from the Survey Department, Singapore, who are undertaking a course in surveying in the Technical College, Kuala Lumpur, for the year 1966/67. The average cost per student is around $1,500 per annum, and hence the provision.

The Chairman: Mr Sim, are you going to carry out your threat?

Mr Sim Boon Woo: In view of our hope of good relationship with the Malaysian Government, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy, amendment No.(4)*. Not present. Amendment(5)+. Not present.

• Amendment No. (4) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0601 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2118.

• Amendment No. (5) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0601 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2135.

Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0601 be reduced by $100.++

( ++The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr. Tang See Chim and Mr. P. Govindaswamy.)

Mr Speaker, Sir, recently a feeling of uneasiness was experienced by parents of students in Malay schools because of the direction that the uniform of girl students in Malay secondary schools should be changed from baju kurong to skirt and blouse type of school uniform. It is stated that this type of school uniform is more progressive than baju kurong. There are others who say that Malay students are Muslims and to put on skirt and blouse is forbidden. The Chairman of U.M.N.O., Singapore, Inche Ahmad Bin Haji Taff, in wanting to safeguard the personality of the students and Malay culture, has resisted the idea of changing the baju kurong to skirt and blouse. Mr Speaker, Sir, in my opinion, whether the students are progressive or not does not depend on their uniform; it does not matter whether the school uniform is baju kurong or skirt and blouse. It depends on the education imparted to them by the teachers in the schools and the encouragement they get to study at home. Whether it is acceptable (halal) or forbidden (haram) depends on each individual. Today there are many Malay girls who put on dresses which are transparent, and skin tight too. So, in order to safeguard Malay culture and personality, does Inche Ahmad Haji Taff himself put on baju kurong when he goes to work in the office? The attitude of this gentleman is like that of the mother crab which asks its baby to walk straight when she herself walks sideways. It is better that the question of deciding on the school dress, whether it is to be baju kurong or skirt and blouse, be left to the parents themselves so long as there is a distinctive colour in the uniform according to the school the child attends. Also consideration should be given to the extra expenditure that may be incurred by parents. But what is most important is to look into the matter of the progress of the children's education.

The Minister, in replying to the Member for Sembawang earlier, stated that at the moment there are very few qualified trained Malay teachers to teach in Malay secondary schools. Therefore, with this shortage, can Malay secondary students become more progressive only by changing their dress from baju kurong to skirt and blouse? If the Ministry of Education are aware of this shortage, they should then find ways and means to overcome this shortage if they truly wish to see Malay students progress in their studies. I still remember the Minister for Education during the Government of Tun Lim Yew Hock in 1957 stated that Malay secondary schools could not be established because there were no teachers and no suitable text-books in Malay. But when the P.A.P. came to power in 1959, the then Minister for Education, who is now the Minister for Health, promised that Malay secondary schools would be established in 1961, although he was still facing the same problem of teachers and textbooks in Malay. But because of the keen effort put in, Malay secondary classes were started in 1960, that is, one year earlier. If the present Minister for Education is to wait for qualified teachers in the Malay stream to descend from heaven, and likewise wait for textbooks to descend from heaven, then the intention to see that Malay education progresses will not be achieved. I would like to ask the Minister what plans there are to encourage more Malay graduate teachers, because at present although there are a number of Malay graduates, they were transferred or ask for transfer to other jobs for specific reasons.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would further like to state that, at the moment, there are one or two pre-university classes in the Malay stream. If the problem facing Malay secondary education cannot be faced by the Ministry, what hope is there for those in the pre-university classes? What will happen to those students who wish to go for further studies? Does the Ministry have any plans to overcome this problem?

Regarding vocational education in the Malay stream, I find that it is important to increase the number of vocational schools in the Malay stream so as to give opportunities to Malay students to study in the vocational stream in order that they will be well equipped to work in factories and industries which need skilled workers. I hope the Minister will see to it that vocational schools in the Malay stream be increased so as to enable Malay students to get vocational training.

3.00 p.m.

Regarding text-books, I have received complaints that certain schools change text-books from year to year. This causes difficulties to parents who have two or more children in the same school, whereas it is the policy of the Ministry of Education to provide opportunities for them to give their children adequate education. If textbooks are changed from year to year, this will be a problem to the parents, because the textbooks which could have been handed down to the other children cannot be handed down. I hope that efforts will be made to see that textbooks in the schools could be used in a manner that would not bring difficulty to the parents.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, education is essential in any society. In a developing multi-racial, multi-lingual, multi-religious socialist society like ours, however, education is called on to do more than just training our young. It is also called on to make us good and useful citizens, to weld our nation together. In the past we lived not as a nation. We could not have done that because we were then a subject race. In the past we lived in separate communities. Things are now different. We are now independent and our destiny is in our own hands. We are responsible for our own future. We are, however, a small nation living on a small island with no natural resources. The only resources that we can boast of are our own people our skill in training, in manufacturing and in other fields.

The purpose of education, therefore, should be to train and nurture these skills to make us good and useful citizens. Education, however, does not consist of cramming up all the facts that we can lay our hands on - in being what we call a book-worm or a walking dictionary. The aim of education is to make us a complete man, a man who can think and act for himself, a man with a disciplined mind and a healthy body. We can only achieve this by two branches of education, namely, literary education and physical education. In the very recent past, Mr Speaker, Sir, our education system was defective to the extent that we attached far too much importance to literary education and not enough importance to physical education. A devotion to one branch of education to the exclusion of the other branch would not serve the purpose of education. Unmitigated attention to physical education, for example, would produce a sort of ferocity in us, a sort of uncivilised harshness that we should avoid. On the other hand, a mere literary education makes us soft and dispirited, something that is not good for us. Ferocity, Mr Speaker, Sir, is the outcome of the spirited element in us. Proper training would produce courage. But if that element is over-strained, it naturally becomes hard and savage. Gentleness, on the other hand, is characteristic of the philosophic disposition. Here again, too much relaxation will result in over-softness. The right training would produce a gentleness that is steady and disciplined. We all know the saying: "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." All class-work and no field activity would, therefore, take away the high spirit that is in us and will make us weak and unstable, bad tempered and peevish. On the other hand, there are consequences of hard bodily exercise and high living with no attempt to cultivate the mind or use the intellect in study. At first the sense of physical fitness fills a man with self-confidence and energy and makes him twice the man he is. But suppose he does nothing else and holds himself aloof from any sort of culture? Then even if there is something in him that is capable of desiring knowledge, he is starved of instruction and is never encouraged to think for himself by taking part in rational discussions or intellectual pursuits of any kind. And so his mind grows feeble for lack of stimulus and nourishment, and deaf and blind because the darkness that clouds perception is never cleared away. Such a man ends by being wholly uncultivated and a hater of reason. Flaying no use for reasonable persuasion, he gains all his ends by savage violence, like a brute, and he lives in a dull stupor of ignorance with no touch of inward harmony or grace.

On this point, Mr Speaker, Sir, I am supported by good authority and, with your permission, may I quote from the Republic of Plato on "the Education for the Guardians". This is the Conford Edition, Mr Speaker, Sir, at page 99 - middle of the page:

'There are then these two elements in the soul - the spirited and the philosophic. And it is for their sake, as should say, and not (except incidentally) for the sake of the soul and body that heaven has given to mankind these two branches of education. The purpose is to bring the two elements into tune with one another by adjusting the tension of each to the right pitch. So one who can apply to the soul both kinds of education blended in perfect proportion would be master of a nobler sort of musical harmony than was ever made by tuning the strings of the lyre.' Therefore, in our education system we must not only concentrate on literary education but also concentrate on what Plato calls, and I think it is generally called, physical education. In this connection, Mr Speaker, Sir, may I inquire of the Education Minister what has happened to the idea of setting up an elite school? This is a very important subject and perhaps Members here will be given an opportunity to consider fully the question before this elite school is set up.

I am glad to note in the Budget that as usual Education has taken a lion's share in the coming year's expenditure. It is also noted that the emphasis is now shifting from primary education to secondary education. In this connection, it may be relevant to ask the Education Minister whether, and if so when, he would take steps to provide free secondary education?

The Minister for Health (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): That may mean more taxes, you know.

Mr Tang See Chim: On the question of primary education, Sir, it is noted that it is not compulsory, as was remarked by the Minister for Health. Perhaps the Minister for Education will note this and possibly will also introduce compulsory primary education.

In a developing society, Mr Speaker, Sir, there is not only the question of general education, but also the question of technical education to be considered. I am glad to note in the Finance Minister's Budget Speech that steps are being taken to set up technical and vocational schools. I would like to inquire of the Education Minister whether steps are being taken to co-ordinate the education system in this respect and see that we get sufficient technicians for the requirements of our industries. I would also recommend to the Education Minister that he should coordinate with the Economic Development Board to see that the requirements of industry for technicians are met.

Mr Bernard Rodrigues (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of what has been said by our Prime Minister at the opening of the Third Asian Teachers' Seminar that "teachers are anonymous, faceless, listless, etc.", may I know what immediate steps the Minister for Education is taking to rectify the situation?

Mr Rajoo: I wish to draw the attention of the Minister for Education to certain inconsistencies in the matter of duties and responsibilities of the principals in primary and secondary schools. As a new nation which is determined to build up an identity and culture of its own and to equip its young to meet the changed conditions, we are all aware that a re-orientation in our thinking and action is important. In this connection, the role of our teachers and principals cannot be over-emphasised. I have come to understand that once a teacher becomes a principal, he tends to lose all contact with the classrooms and his students whom he is supposed to lead and inspire with his leadership. Instead he is bogged down with paper work by the Ministry which tends to reduce him more or less to a chief clerk.

3.15 p.m.

It appears that most of the principal's work is to transmit instructions received from the Ministry to teachers and report for frivolous reasons personally to the Ministry. Letters sent by principals to the Ministry often do not receive proper attention or, in certain cases, the principals themselves dare not write a second reminder.

In many of the large schools, principals and senior assistants, who are usually highly-paid Division I officers and experienced teachers, have to spend most of their time doing clerical work which could be done by Division III clerical officers. How then can we expect our principals, who are no more than mere transmitting agents, to be positive in their approach, to be creative and inspire those who are under their care?

I would urge the Minister for Education to conduct a survey to find out how many principals and senior assistants of schools have to devote their time to clerical work, and how much of this work could be undertaken by a clerk or an executive officer. I would suggest that all principals of schools should be allowed to teach at least one period a day in the classes. This arrangement will enable them to keep in touch with students and truly assess the progress of the school and the direction it is heading. By keeping in touch with their class-room conditions, they will be in a better position to understand the needs of teachers and the general attitude and outlook of the student body.

It is also understood that some of the problems of principals stem from an inequitable distribution of teachers to schools. While some schools have too many teachers, thus enabling the teachers to have too many free periods a day, other schools are not adequately staffed.

I would therefore urge the Minister for Education to give serious thought to this matter and revise the system so that principals of schools will be in a position to keep in touch with the students and project much-needed character into the schools.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, we all know that the vote for education is the largest for next year. I have two suggestions to make regarding education and schools.

The first point is about the post allowance for principals - in other words, this allowance is to enable them to look after their schools better. But, in actual fact, the result is just the contrary, because once a principal gets a handsome pay with an additional post allowance, he will not like to lose his job and he will not like to take steps to get rid of anti-national elements in his school. He will appease these elements and will not take action against them.

The other point is this. The Ministry of Education is not quite efficient in controlling the purchase and sale of text-books through the principals - the Member for Kampong Kembangan has raised the question of the purchase of school text-books - because they are allowed a certain percentage of commission on the purchase of text-books. This means that they can make money out of such transactions and they, therefore, do not like the text-books to remain unchanged. A certain number of them just try to obtain a commission on the bills sent by the sellers of text-books without even looking into the details or taking the trouble to find out whether the books are worth the money. This does no good to our education and nation. Why should we then give such a big vote to education and waste so much allowance on the principals?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health (Mr Sia Kah Hui): Mr Speaker, Sir, as I am an ex-principal, I think what the Member for Paya Lebar has said needs a little bit of clarification.

In my 16 years in school, I must say that I have not known of a single principal in English medium schools who had anything to do with bookshops paying him a percentage. It might have happened in Chinese schools - and I must say that I have heard of that but not in English medium schools.

Mr Lee Teck Him (Tiong Bahru): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, our nation lays great emphasis on education. This can be seen especially when we are conducting every year primary school combined examinations and secondary school combined examinations with the object of checking the progress of students. This is very good. But if it is too good, then, of course, it will be excessive. There are principals of certain schools who are really not good. Although some students obtain over 60 per cent marks, they are asked to leave school to ensure that the school can get a better pass percentage in the combined examinations. What is the reason for this? I cannot understand it. If the students of a certain school get worse results than those of other schools, then there may be some reason for getting rid of the students.

Just now the Member opposite me said that he had been a principal. I was teaching in Indonesia before, and almost half of the students in my class could not pass an examination. I gave them extra tuition and many of them managed to become good students. So it is against the principle of education to sack students for poor results, more so as these students have around 65 per cent marks, just for prestige. You do not have to spend more time on the clever students. The bad students need more of the teacher's time and energy. So I hope that the Minister for Education will pay more attention to this and direct principals of schools not to sack such students. We should not chase them out of school but we should ask them to come back and improve their education so that they will be able to get 70, 80 or 90 per cent marks. It is not right to ask students to leave school so that the school can improve its passing percentage in the combined examinations, and therefore does not compare badly with other schools.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol) rose -

The Chairman: We are approaching guillotine time.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: I will probably speak for five minutes.

Sir, I would like to make a few points. My first point is this. I believe it is our intention to hold the Secondary IV (English stream) examination and mark the papers locally. This examination is commonly known as the Cambridge School Certificate Examination. Some time ago, we heard pronouncements about the setting up of a Local Examinations Syndicate, but up to now this has not materialised. I would like to know whether plans are already under way to carry out such a project.

The second point is in respect of the way the Primary School Leaving Examination is held. Papers are given to Primary VI students requiring them to choose the correct answer from several given answers. I think this system is not a sound one, because a student who does not know the correct answer can simply make a wild guess. I have heard of cases where students simply cast lots for the answers. I wish to suggest that another system be considered whereby school-leavers in the primary stream will be examined and tested on what they have studied.

The last point is this. I suggest to the Minister concerned that the entire school curriculum should be revised. We are a young independent nation and it is our intention to give equal opportunities to one and all, irrespective of race, language or religion. Sir, in view of the changed circumstances and our objective to build a robust and rugged society within the framework of democratic socialist principles, I think the entire school curriculum should be thoroughly revised and that a committee, comprising eminent educationists, be set up so as to work out a new curriculum for all schools. By that, I am sure, Sir, our objectives will be met.

3.30 p.m.

Mr Sia Kah Hui: I just want to take up one point. The hon. Member for Punggol has talked about the Primary School Leaving Examination. Because I was closely connected with the running of that examination for several years, I know how it works.

Actually I am surprised when the Member says that the objective type of examination is not good because the students tend to just toss a coin and are sure to get a certain number of answers right. The objective test is actually considered by leading educationists in the world as the sure way of finding out what children know. In the marking of a paper, for example, if there are 80 questions set and there are 4 possible answers to each question given, if a child were to put down just "(1) ", "(1) ", "(1) ", and so on as the answers to all the 80 questions, well, he will get only 20 marks, i.e, one-quarter. But in the actual computation of the results, he gets a zero; because if he gets 20 marks, it is equivalent to 0. Anyway, the system takes too long to explain here, but in the marking system where a boy were to try that sort of trick, he would get actually nothing:

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I subscribe fully to all the sentiments expressed by the Member for Choa Chu Kang, in particular, that the aim of education should be to produce a complete man, literate as well as healthy. On the aim of education I do not think there is any controversy. It is not really a very controversial subject. The arguments centre round how best to achieve the aim. In my view, if you want to produce the complete man, one who is literate and sound in health, it depends on the system of education, the principal, the teachers, the family and the home environment. Whatever sound educational system we might devise, if the principal and the teachers do not understand the aim and are not prepared to put in the effort, then it will fail.

It is for that matter that we are organising a seminar of principals sometime towards the end of the month with a view to getting suggestions from them, and hoping in the process that they will be educated also!

The Member for Choa Chu Kang has raised the question of the elite school. The land for this particular school has been acquired and plans are being drawn up. As soon as these are ready and approval is given, an announcement will be made as to when the work will be carried out, the basis of admission, and so forth.

While everybody will agree that it is ideal and that it will be desirable to have free secondary education, I think our present financial position will not permit free secondary education to be introduced.

The Minister for Finance (Mr Lim Kim San): We have thousands of unemployed!

Mr Ong Pang Boon: The Member for Farrer Park has mentioned that a teacher, once he is promoted to be a principal, becomes a chief clerk instead of a principal. If that happens, then I think that principal is not fit to hold that post and he should vacate it to make way for a more competent person to be the principal. As for the suggestion that the principal should be asked to teach at least a period a day, I think it is a sound suggestion and I shall certainly look into it.

The question of principals changing school text-books year after year can only be resolved if the parents will cooperate with the Ministry, and also if the principals will be more responsible and not succumb to the temptation of commissions offered to them by the booksellers. The present practice is that a school should not change text-books every year, but that a change can only be made after three years and after sound reasons have been advanced for the proposed change of text-books. If the Member for Paya Lebar can tell me who is the principal who changes text-books every year, I shall certainly deal with him.

Coming to the Member for Kampong Kembangan, the change of school uniform from the baju kurong and sarong to blouse and skirt is voluntary. The pupils or the parents are not compelled to make the change if they do not want to. The suggestion was made because it was found from experience that the baju kurong and sarong uniform hinders free movement during physical education - games. And if we want to produce a robust and rugged generation, it is necessary that more emphasis should be given to physical training, sports and games. It is for that reason that the suggestion was made.

It is not compulsory if the parents refuse to allow their children to put on blouse and skirt. I do not think that just by changing to blouse and skirt, the traditional culture of the Malays will be destroyed. There are many instances in other Muslim countries where they put on blouse and skirt but they are still a powerful nation; they still have their own national identity and their own culture. Therefore, the argument that just by changing the baju kurong and sarong to blouse and, skirt, the culture of the race will be destroyed is not true.

Malay pre-university students can be admitted to the Malay Studies Department either at the University of Singapore or the University of Malaya. They can also enrol for professional courses at the Polytechnic in the same way as the Chinese medium H.S.C. classes if they have an adequate knowledge of a second language, which is English in this instance.

It is true that there is a shortage of graduate Malay teachers to undertake the Secondary Malay medium classes. The Ministry has been trying its best to increase the supply by offering generous bursaries and scholarships to Malay students who are qualified for admission to the university. Furthermore, we have provided free education for Malays from the primary up to the university level. In addition, other bursaries and free text-books are provided. We hope that by this means there will be a greater number of Malays who will stay in school up to university level. The Member for Kampong Kembangan will, I think, be aware that this is a slow process and it will take many years before we can achieve the target.

The Chairman: Mr Ong, we are gradually approaching guillotine time.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: I have nothing more to say.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

An hon. Member: Vote.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The sum of $143,693,510 for Head 0601 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

3.45 p.m.

Head 0701 -

Mr S. V. Lingam (Aljunied): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1002.*

( *The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong. )

This item is in connection with Parliamentary Secretary, Sir. According to the 1967 Estimates, the Government has made provision for one Parliamentary Secretary. But, in actual fact, we have two Parliamentary Secretaries. Does it mean that one of the two Parliamentary Secretaries is doing the job on a voluntary basis?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to speak on this item, but the Member has taken the words out of my mouth., I have nothing more to say.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I must congratulate the Members for Aljunied and Delta on their very sharp eyes in detecting that the 1967 Estimates provide for only one Parliamentary Secretary, but, in fact, I have the pleasure and privilege of having two Parliamentary Secretaries. The second Parliamentary Secretary, who is now the Member for Bukit Timah, was my Political Secretary for the last three years and he has been doing excellent work in the Ministry. But when it was time for the Bukit Timah by-election to take place, and it was decided by the People's Action Party to field Mr Chor Yeok Eng as a candidate, it was necessary for him then to resign from the service of the Government as my Political Secretary. With his return unopposed, I put to the Prime Minister the question of his reappointment either as a Political Secretary or as a Parliamentary Secretary. It was then decided by the Prime Minister that Mr Chor could be another Parliamentary Secretary. It was, therefore, the privilege of the Prime Minister that Mr Chor Yeok Eng be made a Parliamentary Secretary. Therefore, he was posted to the Ministry of Health.

Perhaps the two Members concerned are not aware of the fact that the preparation of the Estimates takes as much as eight months before it could find itself in print. In fact, at this very moment, all Ministries are working on the 1968 Estimates. So although the post of a second Parliamentary Secretary may not appear in the 1967 Estimates, all that is necessary for, the Minister for Finance and Treasury to do is to agree to an application for supplementary estimates. I can only assume that so long as the second Parliamentary Secretary gets his salary, therefore, the Treasury has already approved his post. I am one of the fortunate Ministers to be ably assisted by two Parliamentary Secretaries.

Mr Lingam: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock (River Valley): Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to raise two items. Firstly, I wish to ask the Minister for Health why there is a difference in the publication of the results of the tenders for drugs and pharmaceutical products for his Ministry. All other Government tenders are published in full with the quotations of the successful tenderer and those of the other tenderers, whereas in respect of the Ministry of Health the individual items of quotation are not stated in the Government Gazette.

The second item I wish to raise is the open sale of harmful drugs in shops which is not under the control of pharmacists or doctors. I am referring to pep pills which are openly sold in shops. These pills are reputed to restore energy and act as a stimulant. They are taken mostly by youths who wish to remain awake in the night. I was told that these pills are very harmful and once a person takes them, he becomes an addict. I understand there are cases of people taking these pills who have gone to Woodbridge Hospital. I would ask the Minister to look into this matter as unless the sale of these drugs is stopped, it may affect our youths. I understand no action is being taken because the Ministry of Health feels that this is a matter for the Customs. I believe the Customs feels this is a matter for the police. The matter is going round in circles.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not quite able to answer the Member for River Valley in respect of his first question, when he states that he does not appear to find in the Government Gazette the publication of tenders for the supply of drugs to my Ministry. I would consider that rather odd if that is not done. If it is the case of not providing full particulars of the successful tender, then there may be a reason for it. It is not possible to itemise every tender that has been awarded, because certain tenders amount to hundreds and thousands of dollars and cover a variety of items. I would say that, in principle, it is desirable and necessary that when Government Ministries make purchases of articles or drugs where they are put to open tender, the results of such award should be publicised in the Government Gazette. If the Member could give me further information later on on this subject and if there is any deficiency, I shall see to it that it will be rectified.

On his second point, he feels that there should be some form of control on what he calls the sale of dangerous drugs by indicating that pep pills are dangerous drugs. I would like to be guided by professional officers in this respect. If it is true that there are those who, having had a surfeit of pep pills, have been admitted to Woodbridge Hospital, I am confident that my doctors in Woodbridge Hospital would be the first to raise this point with the Ministry and, on receipt of their advice, action would follow. If it is true that the control of the sale of pep pills by unauthorised persons in Singapore is now being made the subject of passing the buck from one Ministry to another, from the Customs to the police, and from the police to the Ministry of Health and so on, then I will certainly look into it and ensure that at least the Ministry of Health will make up its mind whether or not control is really necessary with the present state of knowledge that we have of the pep pills.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: In view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Tang See Chim, amendment No. (3)*

• Amendment No.(3), which also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong, reads as follows:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $100.

Mr Tang See Chim: I am not moving.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $100.

Mr Speaker, the health services in Singapore are the best in the whole of South-East Asia. They are highly commendable. However, we must not say that they have no defects. Whenever we detect some defects, I hope the Minister will take steps to remedy them so that our health services will reach a stage of perfection as far as possible.

4.00 p.m.

We all know and appreciate that the work in the hospitals, apart from that of the doctors, is passed over to the nurses and other attendants. Comparatively speaking, it is the nurses who are in close contact with the patients. Because of their illness, some patients are particularly grumpy. This is, of course, inevitable. The services performed by nurses are different from those performed by other public servants. In other words, when they have accepted their responsibility as nurses, they must appreciate their role which is quite extraordinary and more responsible than that of the ordinary public servant. They must pay special attention to their patients. The life of the patients depends on the nurses who must serve them carefully and patiently. But because of certain grumpy patients, some nurses cannot do their work in a kind or patient manner. Because of this, these patients are dissatisfied with their services. These nurses have not shown enough tolerance and kindness to the patients who, in turn, will make complaints, sometimes to Members of Parliament and sometimes to other departments of Government. Of course, we do not say for a moment that this situation is widespread. It is not. But whether it is or not, we can still say that from the complaints made by Members of Parliament, nothing seems to have improved very much.

I remember that the Member for Moulmein last year did make a complaint to the department concerned about the discourtesy of some nurses towards patients or other members of the public who sought help from the hospitals. At that time, I remember the Parliamentary Secretary replied that because the complaints from the public and patients were unspecified - no names were given, no descriptions of the nurses were given the department concerned was unable to take any action. So I hope the Ministry will pay attention to what I am going to say.

My suggestion is whether some measures may be taken to give a number to each and every nurse in Singapore. In other words, something like the numbers shown on the police constables' uniforms. Say, in group one you can have "E" or "B" or other identification numbers which may be used on the nurses' uniforms. I do not think this will present any difficulty. If you have these identification numbers on the uniforms of nurses, then persons who want to make complaints against the culprits can take down the numbers for the purposes of record and make their complaints. This will enable the department concerned to take the necessary action against the culprits.

At the same time, there is another point worthy of consideration. With the numbers shown on the uniforms, the nurses will realise that those who have made mistakes will be punished and those who are good will be praised by members of the public. So I would like the Minister to see to it that record books are placed in each and every ward of the hospitals so that patients are given the opportunity to say good things of the good nurses and make complaints against the bad nurses, and awards or punishment may be meted out accordingly.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, if you want the Minister to reply, I am afraid you have to stop.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Yes, I will try my best to shorten my speech as far as possible.

In this way, the public servants in the hospitals will be better able to carry out their duties so that members of the public will have closer contact with them. This is what I am going to say in this respect.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, time has already run out for me. But I hope, with your permission, I shall be able to answer the Member as much as I can. I agree with her that one should never be satisfied with conditions and should always attempt to improve; especially if there should be any deficiencies, we should endeavour to rectify them. It is only in this way that we can progress.

The Member has spoken largely on the role of nurses, but she has been good enough to say that not all nurses are unkind. So here again we are dealing with the subject of the minority of any community who may not live up to the high traditions of this noble vocation of nursing. She makes the suggestion that nurses should be asked to put on a number like that of police constables, so that it will be easy for identification in case of complaints. But she is also wise enough to say that it is also possible for a patient to be able to remember the number of the nurse who has looked after him very well, so that there will either be a bouquet or a brickbat. This is a question which I believe has been discussed with A.U.P.E., which represents the nurses, and I am given to understand that there is some resistance to even having names attached to the lapels of their uniforms. I personally think it is a good suggestion to have tag names on uniforms. We are already making a start with the doctors, and I would like to pursue this matter in respect of nurses with a different colour - one colour for doctors and a different colour for nurses. There may be resentment to having numbers on uniforms. I will endeavour to look into this matter for 1967.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I beg to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $4,574,830 for Head 0701 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0702 -

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0702 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Sir, we have an excellent medical service in our Republic. We can even claim that it is among the best in Asian countries. The outpatient services provided in the various districts are very helpful to citizens. The Ministry of Health has not only brought medical services to the doorsteps of our people, but these outpatient services have also relieved congestion in the General Hospital where emergency cases could be dealt with efficiently and quickly. But in spite of all these improvements, there are certain points I wish to bring to the kind attention of the Minister for Health.

Sir, I have a letter dated 21st July, 1966, signed by one Dr Ho Guan Lim, Deputy Director of Medical Services (Hospitals), replying to a complaint I made on 18th July, 1966. My letter complained of a rusty nail found in the food served to a patient in the Tan Tock Seng Hospital. Sir, in his reply the D.D.M.S. (Hospitals) regretted that such a thing had happened and promised that he would tell the hospitals to be more careful in the preparation of food. While I appreciate this act of the D.D.M.S. (Hospitals). I have to quote the second paragraph of the reply:

'I do not think this was deliberate. But, as you know, food in the hospitals is prepared in bulk and foreign bodies like this may turn up from time to time and missed when the food is prepared and served.'

Sir, I know it was not deliberate, but I think if careful attention is paid to the preparation of food, definitely the presence of foreign bodies can be prevented.

Mr Bernard Rodrigues rose -

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigues, is it on the same matter?

Mr Bernard Rodrigues: No. It is on the same heading, Sir.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Bernard Rodrigues: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have been given to understand that the demand by the Ministry for assistant nurses has exceeded the supply of trained assistant nurses from this school. So much so that previous to this year, the graduates from this training school were automatically appointed to the posts in the various hospitals in Singapore.

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigues, you are referring to "this school" without identifying the school.

Mr Bernard Rodrigues: The School of Nursing, Sir.

The Chairman: Does that not come under a separate subhead?

Mr Bernard Rodrigues: No, Sir. It comes under the heading of "Hospitals".

The Chairman: I think your remarks would be more appreciated under Mr Tang's amendment No. (5)*

• Amendment No. (5) reads as follows:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0702 be reduced by $100.

Mr Bernard Rodrigues: I have been told that Mr Tang is not going to move it.

The Chairman: It would help if Members would also inform me of their intentions not to move amendments standing in their name. But there are processes, Mr Rodrigues, whereby you can take over Mr Tang's amendment if he is not going to move it.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I notice that our Members start off very well by saying that we have got a wonderful health service, etc., etc., and then when everything is nicely said and done, they give one "kedong" - a little jab to make things a little more interesting! Apparently the Member for Aljunied takes very seriously the letter of complaint that he wrote to the Ministry, but I thought he got a fair answer from the Deputy Director of Medical Services in charge of Hospitals.

4.15 p.m.

I used to make it a rule that letters of complaint from Members of Parliament should be sent to me, but I have been a bit busy recently. So this particular exchange of correspondence was not made known to me until the Member read it out. I think it is a fair reply given by the official that it is regretted that a nail was found in the food.

An hon. Member: Lucky.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Patients usually go to doctors for tonics. They are given iron tonic which is really iron in a liquid form and which does good, I think, to the human constitution. I do admit that it must have come as a shock to the patient - especially a sick and ill patient in the Tan Tock Seng Hospital who generally stays in the hospital for a fairly long time from three to six months - to find a rusty nail in the food. But it is always possible, even in the very best of hotels where you may pay $20 for a dinner, to find a rusty nail and, of course, if it is discovered, there will be ample apologies from the head-waiter downwards, probably with the manager running out of his office to extend his apologies. These things are possible. This should not be taken as an example of deliberate negligence, but it should be taken in the spirit in which the letter was written, that we will do our best. We are sorry that it has happened - it can happen again, of course. But we will try to see that it will not happen again, and we will draw the attention of the cooks to a complaint like this, and so forth. But I certainly cannot guarantee that another rusty nail will not turn up in another hospital!

Mr Lingam: Before I withdraw the amendment, I would like to say that iron tonic is different from rusty iron tonic!

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Tay Boon Too, amendment No.(2)*

I see that amendments (2)++, (3)* and (4)+ are in respect of administrative heads of hospitals. If the hon. Member wishes, he can move amendment (2)++ and speak on all three.

• Amendment (3) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0702 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1371. + Amendment (4) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0702 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1611.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0702 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1051.++

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Delta has touched a little on what I had intended to say.

In the past under the colonial regime, we had various staff in the hospitals - doctors, nurses, attendants and others. The doctors could be said to be heads of the various departments and they acted like emperors. They were very pompous and the patients regarded them with fear. They did not pay attention to the patients. On the contrary, the patients were ridiculed and neglected. This sort of situation prevailed in the old colonial days, but it was wiped out when the P.A.P. came to power in 1959. The situation now is quite different. But, unfortunately, it is not manifest in all the hospitals. Some staff in the hospitals have again adopted the colonial type of attitude which prevailed before. They ill-treat the patients and adopt a contemptuous attitude towards them. There have been many such complaints. I myself have received quite a number of them, especially from the poorer people in the rural areas. These people seek treatment in Government hospitals. Contrary to their expectations, they are ill-treated and suffer mental cruelty at the hands of certain staff in the hospitals. As they are in need of medical attention, there is no other way out for them.

I have several suggestions to make in connection with the Kandang Kerbau Hospital. The treatment meted out to certain patients is rather unfair. We have read in the Press and also heard a lot about the ill-treatment meted out by the Kandang Kerbau Hospital staff. Even my wife has experienced maltreatment in that hospital. This is very regrettable and is the cause of my anger. This will cast an aspersion on the white angels - namely, the nurses in the Kandang Kerbau Hospital! Let me give some examples. This year, a pregnant woman was warded there and she was in great labour pains. She was yelling for her papa and mama and the nurse cursed her saying, "When you feel pleasant and happy, you do not shout for your papa and mama. Why do you now call for them?" This is a very awkward situation. When she felt the labour pangs -

The Chairman: In view of the time now, and, if the Minister is to have time to reply, will you shorten your remarks, Mr Tay?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I was hoping to air all my views, but I will try to shorten my speech as much as possible because of the time limit.

So this patient said to the nurse on duty that it was about time for her to give birth. But the nurse told her, "You have given birth to so many babies. Do you not know that this is not the time for you to deliver?" It was only when the patient shouted, "The head of the baby is almost coming out," that the nurse took steps to put her in the labour room. So this is really a bad situation and it is beyond my description. There have been cases like this. When patients say to the nurses, "If you act like this towards us, we do not care to come here again," the nurses reply, "If that is the case, then it will be more convenient for us and we will not have work to do. It will be much better for us." This minority group of people who are ignorant and adopt such a contemptuous attitude towards patients at the expense of the paying public are not worth their salt.

The Chairman: Mr Tay, if your notes are an indication of the length of what is to come, I am afraid I must stop you.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, what I want to say is that my amendment touches on all the three hospitals.

The Chairman: Mr Tay. I have fixed 4.30 p.m. as the time when the debate on this Head must be concluded. This means that if you have genuine grievances and you want to hear the Minister's reply, you must stop to give him time to reply.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): I will round it off very quickly. I will discard a part of my speech and try to finish what I have to say as soon as possible.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this sort of attitude by public servants is bad for the Government. In a democratic society, the Government is like a bus and its servants are part and parcel of the bus, like petrol. If the petrol is dirty and not filtered and the engine is out of order and needs repairs, it will be bad and possibly disastrous for the Government.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am very sorry to hear from the Member for Paya Lebar that his wife had a bad experience in the Kandang Kerbau Hospital. I was not aware of that. He should at least have given me some indication that such an unfortunate thing had taken place and I would have looked into the matter. But I think his long complaint of what took place in the Kandang Kerbau Hospital unless it is the personal experience of his wife - could very well be an essay written by one of his students in class of the goings-on in a maternity hospital, because he was so dramatic and graphic! I do not, for a moment, tolerate any ill-behaviour or discourtesy on the part of nurses and midwives towards their patients.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: But I think it is very difficult for a proper investigation to be made if the Member just makes a sort of graphic description of what took place, without indicating the time, and the person concerned. I hope he will take into account the actual situation in which things happen in the Labour Ward of the Kandang Kerbau Maternity Hospital, which has the reputation of being the largest maternity hospital in the world. Medical students going for training in Kandang Kerbau Hospital say their hair stands on end when they see babies popping out every few minutes! They use the words "popping out". Every day over 100 babies are born; every few minutes a baby pops out. Can you imagine a doctor, or a midwife, or a nurse behaving naturally under such conditions? Naturally they are all excited and at their wits' end trying to save the lives of the mothers and babies.

4.30 p.m.

The Chairman: Mr Yong, I am afraid guillotine time is now, and I must stop you. Does Mr Tay wish to proceed with his amendment?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, may I be allowed to say a few words more before I withdraw my amendment?

The Chairman: Mr Tay, I am afraid I cannot allow it because all the other Members with amendments will complain to me that they have taken the trouble to put down amendments and have had no opportunity to be heard. But if you want to discuss hospitals, arrangements for a debate on the adjournment are available to you.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I just want to say that I did mention this incident to the Parliamentary Secretary in May, but I did not get any reply from him. But in view of the reply by the Minister, I would like to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The time allotted for Head 0702 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the names of Mr Tang See Chim and Mr S. V. Lingam, was not proceeded with:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0702 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $44,088,790 for Head 0702 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0703 -

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0703 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

I wish to raise only one point. In my constituency there are a few persons who carry on the manufacture of gingili oil. This is done more or less as a traditional business on a small scale. We can even say that these are cottage industries. Recently the manufacturers have received letters from the Ministry of Health informing them that they should have licences under the Food and Drugs Regulations to manufacture gingili oil. They are quite willing to apply for licences. But there are certain difficulties, such as buildings, dwellings, etc. They have been doing this business and living in the same building for the last 20 to 30 years. Moreover, they are operating under licences issued to them by the Inspector of Machinery. One of the major difficulties which they now face is finding accommodation for their families elsewhere. Sir, the Rule which insists that the place of dwelling should be different from that of business could be applied to applicants who start their business after the coming into operation of this Rule, which I believe is from 1-1-65. But in the cases I have cited, could the Minister be good enough to consider them sympathetically, as they have been there for more than 20 years?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I tend to agree with the Member for Aljunied that, in the determination of whether a factory should be licensed or not, perhaps some exemption may he permitted if such a factory is indeed a small one and could be classified as a home industry. But the rub is that one does not know exactly when it is a home industry that has done so well that it has become a real factory. However, it is not, I think, a fair principle to say that just because a factory has been going on for the last 20 years, therefore, it should go on for the next 20 years in its old-fashioned way. Because Singapore is fast being rebuilt and urbanised, what used to be a cottage industry and may be far, far away from the city area 10 or 20 years ago is not the same cottage industry today, because it might very well be in the heart of Singapore itself, so that it is necessary to have some element of control and the minimum of health requirements.

I must, however, say that precautions have been taken in the Ministry of Health for the Licensing Committee to be composed not only of professional officers but, in fact, to have a membership largely composed of Members of Parliament who are non-professionals and who are best able, therefore, to appreciate the political implications in the implementation of official regulations, etc. It is my view that for quite some time, the Licensing Committee of my Ministry seems to have been somewhat rigid in its application of regulations, and I had hoped that, with the presence of a large number of non-professionals in this Committee, this aspect of the problem would be looked into. Mr Speaker, Sir, I am, in fact, contemplating a change in the composition of the membership of the Licensing Committee to include members of the public who are generally affected by such licensing policy, so that there would be various viewpoints and opinions expressed in this Committee comprising professional officers, those in the political field, and also ordinary members of the public, to ensure that the policy that we implement will be found to be reasonable and, therefore, any harshness in the application of regulations might be tempered.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I agree with the Minister. But the people concerned are not against the requirements. What they are asking is that the requirements should be the minimum. But the Health Ministry has asked them to have a better place. This is more or less a case where these people have been running this business for the last 20 or 30 years. They are willing to abide by the rules. But if you ask them to take off the attap roof, or demolish the old building and build a concrete one, then it is too much for them. So I hope the Minister will look into this case and consider it sympathetically.

The Chairman: Do you wish to proceed with the amendment?

Mr Lingam: No, Sir, I beg to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr S. V. Lingam -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0703 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1201.

Mr Lingam: I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0703 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1901.

In moving this amendment, I would appreciate it if the Minister could advise this House of the progress so far of the resiting of the hawkers.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am glad that the Member for River Valley has given me an opportunity to outline the progress on the resiting of hawkers in Singapore. In this respect, I must, first of all, express my gratitude to him for his co-operation and the part he himself has played in the successful resiting of hawkers in his constituency of River Valley, especially the large number of unlicensed hawkers who used to congregate along Killiney Road and Killiney Road Private Market.

At the beginning of this year we outlined the basic principles of the new Hawkers Code for the licensing and control of an estimated 40,000 to 50,000 unlicensed hawkers in Singapore. We have accepted the fact that hawking is a way of life in Singapore and we have also ensured that any Singapore citizen is entitled to apply for a hawker's licence so long as he complies with a few basic principles - of not being a public menace in respect of public health, be a problem to traffic, whether pedestrian or motor, and flouting law and order.

So we have for a start licensed more than 2,500 hawkers in pasar malams at 66 sites. With that experience we then moved on to selected areas where there were hawkers congregated at street junctions, and the Killiney Road Market was one of the selected targets where we wanted to put matters right.

4.45 p.m.

With the help of Members of Parliament, which also includes my friend and colleague, the Minister for Finance, in the Cairnhill Constituency, we tackled hawkers around Koek Road and Newton Circus. We have up to date licensed and controlled about 5,000 hawkers during 1966. As we have had something like 12,000 licences issued to hawkers prior to the introduction of the new Hawkers Code, we can say that today we have under licence and control something like 17,000 hawkers. We still have to license, I think, another 30,000 to 40,000. In other words, another two-thirds of the problem has yet to be tackled. We have about one-third of the problem in hand. Given time, patience and co-operation from Members of Parliament as well as from members of the Citizens' Consultative Committees and from the hawkers themselves, we should be able to resolve this problem in a couple of years. The most recent attempt at licensing and controlling hawkers was in the North Bridge Road and High Street area. Even just outside this House, there used to be a number of hawkers plying their wares on the five-foot way. I think there is now easy access to all and sundry when they shop along North Bridge Road and High Street, which, I think, is very noticeable. We have been able to do this because we have the co-operation of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture and the Member of Parliament for Stamford. With his kind co-operation, we have been able to persuade the hawkers to take alternative sites in side streets, away from traffic junctions and busy streets, so that they can continue with their business and also allow the life of this community to go on as it should. I can say with quiet confidence that the progress in the resiting of hawkers has been reasonably smooth, that we have achieved some success, and that we hope, given a bit of time, that the problem of hawkers in Singapore is a soluble one.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Inche Mohd. Ariff, amendment No. (4)*. He is not present. Mr Teong Eng Siong, amendment No. (4) .

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr S. V. Lingam.)

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0703 be reduced by $100.

Just now our Minister has said that before some Members start their speech, they will sing praises about the Government first, after which they will turn round and criticise it. But here I will just give my plain facts. The task of the Public Health Division is an onerous one. Whether our city can become the healthiest and cleanest in South-East Asia depends on the work of this division. Why do I say so? Let me give some examples. We know that during these two years Singapore has never experienced any cases of malaria or any epidemic. This is a very commendable situation. In other countries epidemics are very prevalent. It shows that we are very progressive in our health services. The rate of mortality is also decreasing. This shows that our medical services are quite efficient. Our Health Ministry is also propagating family planning. This is a very commendable effort. I would like to congratulate the Minister and the people concerned on their achievements in these meritorious services.

I would now like to touch upon the regulations imposed upon the hawkers. Hawkers are a major problem in our society. The aim of controlling hawkers is to put our hawker problem in proper perspective. Hawkers are also our citizens. To hawk is their right in order to make a living. We are allotting sites to them. This is in keeping with our economic policy. Hawkers in the Telok Ayer Basin also have a hawkers' bazaar there. That is also a way whereby a few hundred hawkers can make a living. It is one of the good actions taken by Government.

Another aspect is about the X-ray campaign undertaken by the Health Ministry. For instance, in my Sembawang Constituency, the people have been afforded the opportunity for free X-rays. This is a commendable action on the part of the Ministry. I hope this work will continue.

I would like to mention another matter. I remember that at the previous sitting of Parliament, a few Members raised the question of cleanliness and cleansing on the island. I ask the Minister whether he is considering launching a cleansing campaign on a national scale. He might be able to call upon all Members of Parliament and other people concerned to clean up the whole island.

Finally, I hope that the Health Ministry can do their task better next year than this year in all fields, whether in relation to hawkers, cleansing, etc., in order to maintain our standard and reputation.

The Chairman: Mr Lingam.

Mr Lingam: I am not speaking.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would just like to take this opportunity to raise three points. First, a couple of days ago we had occasion to hear our No. 2 Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health. I do not know how to refer to him, Sir.

The Chairman: One solution would be to refer to either the more recent one or the older one.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: The recent one, Sir. He replied to various supplementary questions in regard to the eradication of the rampant mosquito menace in our Republic. Sir, up till today I am not very satisfied with his answers. He was more or less dodging a direct answer all the time in spite of being faced with a direct question. I hope our Minister today can clarify this matter in regard to the setting up of the Anti-mosquito Unit to eradicate the mosquito menace.

Sir, my second point is in regard to our civil service. I think this House will agree with me that our civil service is, in fact, one of the best in this part of the world. I am happy to note that we have one senior civil servant present in this House. The civil servants have rendered loyal and dedicated service, but in the course of discharging their services, some of them have broken down, just as motor-car engines do. Sir, I understand that a number of civil servants, having contracted sickness like cancer and heart trouble, have to go overseas for treatment, not because we cannot treat them here but because the facilities here, I understand, are still inadequate. No doubt, we have the Institute of Medical Research well in hand. Still, life is more precious than wealth. Therefore, these civil servants who are seriously sick will inevitably have to leave our shore to seek treatment elsewhere. Sir, I was wondering whether the Minister will come to the rescue by considering whether or not to provide such civil servants passages to whichever country they wish to go for treatment and also allowances for such treatment.

My last point is this. I wonder whether our Government will institute some sort of health insurance scheme for our civil servants. I understand there was a case not very long ago where a civil servant died as a result of an operation. No doubt, Sir, there was no negligence involved. But, sad to say, although his family got some money, they suffered a bigger loss in monetary returns and security. So our civil servants, in the course of their duties, especially those who meet with a fatal accident or who contract a dangerous illness, will not be able to continue to give their expected quality of service. Therefore, Sir, I hope the Minister will consider my suggestion to institute a sort of health insurance scheme for civil servants.

5.00 p.m.

Mr Lingam rose -

The Chairman: Having regard to the time, Mr Lingam, is it a short speech?

Mr Lingam: One minute, Sir.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Lingam: Sir, the Member for Punggol has touched on the subject of civil servants, and I would like to add one point to what he has said. I do not know whether I am correct or not to say this here. We are getting copies of the Government Directory. In that directory, we notice civil servants who have been acting in posts for so many years. I cannot understand why this is so. Are these officers not capable or -

The Chairman: Mr Lingam, are you referring to appointments in the Public Health Division?

Mr Lingam: No, Sir, I am touching on the civil service

The Chairman: Your remarks might be more appropriate under Mr Lim Cheng Lock's amendment to cut the Minister for Finance's salary by $10.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will touch on only two points raised by the Member for Sembawang - hawker control and the possibility of launching a cleansing campaign. He has spoken in very glowing terms about the Ministry of Health, and I am glad he has chosen it to be the Ministry with which he wishes to be associated. Because of its good reputation, he is adding mere lustre to it. I am pleased to say that he is doing very good work in the Ministry of Health, especially in assisting the second Parliamentary Secretary in hawker control, and he has given us very valuable advice. I am sure that with his continued good work we should be able to resolve this big and outstanding social problem in due course.

As regards his call for a general cleansing campaign in Singapore, I can assure him that he will be called upon very soon to lead it, because I gather the Public Daily Rated Employees' Unions Federation are intent on following up their strike ballot. If I am correct, they are supposed to serve their strike notice today, or maybe it has already been served. So a general cleansing campaign will very soon be coming, and I hope the Member for Sembawang will lead it. I assure him that we have plans to maintain more than a skeleton service.

May I now come to the three points brought up by the Member for Punggol? I do not think it is fair to say that the Parliamentary Secretary, the Member for Bukit Timah - he is not in the House at the moment, because he is now in the St. Andrew's Orthopaedic Hospital making a short speech on my behalf for the children's concert way up in Siglap - was trying to give a very evasive answer to Members who were very critical about the mosquito "population", which has also increased in Singapore. I thought he did exceedingly well. Because the problem of mosquitoes in Singapore is not just a question of exterminating the mosquitoes as you see them. We have to get down to the basic causes and there are numerous causes why we are having so many mosquitoes in Singapore today. Not that we are very proud about it, but it is a legacy. First of all, there has been rapid building development over the last five years of which we are all so proud, but, unfortunately, it does create problems. Because of the speed to get things done, other factors are sometimes either ignored or put on a very low priority, so that whilst we see many beautiful multi-storeyed flats and factories coming up, many drains have been blocked. So we see after every shower large pools of stagnant water, and within a week, we have millions of mosquitoes. It is a case of chasing and closing up all these possible loopholes. This has to be tackled at ground level. Then we have numerous drains all of which have been covered up to look pretty on which to allow hawkers to hawk. But underneath, the drains are clogged and there is no flow of water, and stagnant water results in the breeding of mosquitoes. Then we have our tens of thousands of hawkers who use the drains as refuse dumps. They, and even our citizens, throw their rubbish into these drains. I would like to inform this House that three-quarters of the refuse which we throw into our city garbage dump is collected from the streets or dug out from the drains. Public streets and drains are used as refuse dumps. We have to educate the whole population not to treat the streets and drains as refuse dumps, and that takes time. Let us have a look at our schools. Every school ground looks a disgrace with all the litter which has been thrown by students. This practice is not checked by teachers. And so it goes on.

So there must be a health campaign to make everyone pick up the litter and put it into the waste-paper basket. We have to provide thousands of wastepaper baskets all over the city. Almost every home has a little garden, and in collecting rain water it breeds mosquitoes at the same time. The people complain about mosquitoes, but at the same time they are breeding mosquitoes in their backyard. Despite the fact that D.D.T. is such a wonderful anti-mosquito insecticide, mosquitoes have become clever and now they are also resistant to D.D.T. The few that are not killed become tough and thereafter D.D.T. does not affect them. So we have a stronger breed of mosquitoes, unfortunately, not only in Singapore but all over the world. All these, I am afraid, Sir, are big problems. However, we are at the moment conducting a three-month pilot scheme for a selected area in Singapore bounded by the Geylang River, Guillemard Road, Paya Lebar, Sims Avenue, Lorong 3, Geylang Road and Kallang River - an area with about 8,000 houses - and a specific house-to-house survey of mosquitoes is being carried out. We should be able to complete this survey this month and then we will be in a position to launch an island-wide campaign. I can then assure the Member for Punggol that even in his constituency we should be able to see a reduced number of mosquitoes, but not just now.

Finally, Mr Speaker, Sir, coming to the civil servants who, because of illness, may find it necessary - as stated by the Member for Punggol - to seek medical treatment overseas. I am afraid this is a matter which is not under my control. I think the Ministry of Finance has to come into the picture. As soon as the Salaries Commission publishes its findings, and if this matter of medical benefits does not come into the picture, perhaps it could be taken up separately then. I do not think the instance the Member has mentioned, that someone having died on the operation table should have had health insurance, is really what he wants. The way to help this particular bereaved family is whether there is adequate life insurance or not. Health insurance does not do anything except meet the medical expenses for the operation, whether the person is dead or alive. But if the poor chap dies on the operation table, and if he has had some life insurance, then he gets the benefit of the life insurance, but not health insurance. Health insurance really means that if you pay your premiums, and in case medical expenses have to be incurred, like the payment of operation expenses, then the insurance company pays for the expenses, which would probably amount to just a few hundred dollars. I would say that we would like to look after our civil servants as well as we can. Not only can they break down because of hard work, but I think Members of Parliament can also break down because of hard work. But I think, all in all, we have a reasonably good health service and I hope we can maintain the high standard of health services in Singapore.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I thank the Minister for his detailed explanation. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $28,957,520 for Head 0703 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: This is perhaps a convenient time to take the suspension.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting of the House and will resume again at 5.40 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.13 p.m. until 5.40 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.40 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 0801 -

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Mr Speaker, Sir, it is some months now since normalisation of trade with Indonesia has taken place and an agreement signed. But I understand that the results are not up to our expectations and that there are still restrictions, one of which is the difficulty in obtaining visas for movement between Singapore and Indonesia. I think the House would appreciate it if the Minister would enlighten us on this important subject.

Mr Lingam: Sir, Members of Parliament have been receiving a copy each of the Singapore Government Directory in which we find the names addresses and telephone numbers of many civil servants. But I have noticed that a number of these officers seem to have been acting for years and years in their posts. I want to know why there have been no permanent officers appointed to certain posts for so many years. Are the acting officers not capable of holding their posts substantively, or is it the intention of Government to keep them acting for ever?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, when the Member for River Valley says that trade with Indonesia has not come up to expectations, it all depends very much upon whose expectations and what expectations they are. I have said from time to time that trade between Indonesia and Singapore could be normalised. We cannot expect the same volume of trade that we had before confrontation, for the simple reason that during confrontation, Indonesian merchants had already established direct contact with their sources of supply and markets. Mr Speaker, Sir, the resumption of trade with Indonesia could not by any stretch of the imagination come to the pre-confrontation level. At the moment, what we have is largely in the form of barter trade, and as regards that, I think it has almost reached pre-confrontation level. But whether or not trade will further improve depends very much again upon the situation in Indonesia itself and upon the policies that are to be followed.

Whether trade will really start flowing between Indonesia and Singapore does not depend so much upon how many visas could be issued by Indonesia to our traders, but upon whether they could get over the foreign exchange difficulties in buying here and whether they would be able to resuscitate or rehabilitate their transport, distribution and collecting systems, so that more of their produce could be sent abroad.

5.45 p.m.

I have no doubt at all that now that the floodgates have been opened following the recognition of Singapore by Indonesia and the signing of trade and shipping agreements, there will be an increasing volume of trade between Singapore and Indonesia. We sincerely hope that the present Government in Indonesia will be able to carry out its objectives to redevelop its country and to pay more attention to economic matters. That is as far as we can do on our side. We have tried our very best to afford them every facility for the resumption of trade and the ball is actually at their feet.

The Member for Aljunied gets the impression, just from looking up the telephone directory, that a large number of civil servants are acting in posts.

The Chairman: I think he was referring to the Official Directory - the blue book.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is not the intention of the Government to allow civil servants to act as long as possible, but we would like to promote those who deserve promotion. As a result of the extension of services due to Malayanisation and various other factors, we have lost quite a large number of civil servants in the higher echelons, and therefore quite a large number of posts have to be filled by acting appointments. But the civil service being what it is -- once a man has been appointed, he has security of tenure -- we want to be pretty sure, as far as possible, that the man who is promoted really deserves promotion. Promotion exercises are carried out from time to time. While wishing to fill these posts and seeing that every civil servant should be given his due, we are at the same time, as a result of past experience, very careful when filling a high post to make sure that the applicant will shape up well. This is a passing phase and I expect that with more and more qualified people coming out from our universities and from abroad, we will be able very soon to fill all these posts substantively by people who really deserve them.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2005.

Mr Speaker, Sir, subhead 2005 refers to Subsidy to Housing and Development Board for an amount of over $8 million.

I would appreciate it if the Minister could provide the House with some detailed information on this subsidy granted.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, there is a prevalent belief that the Housing Board is making money because most people - and I think rightly so - consider that a landlord makes money from the properties he lets out, and the Housing and Development Board, being the largest property holder or the biggest landlord in Singapore, is expected to make money. But contrary to this belief, the Board was set up not with the object of making money from properties, but with the object of providing the lower income group of Singapore citizens with modern housing at rentals well within their means. Its objective, therefore, is to house as many of the poorer group of people as possible at a rental which most of them can afford to pay.

In spite of the large number of houses which the Housing and Development Board has put up and rented out, it is running at a loss. For the information of Members and the public, I have figures here showing the amount of subsidies for the various types of houses put up by the Housing Board. As you know, Mr Speaker, Sir, we are trying to standardise the rentals as far as possible so that the same rental would be paid for one-room units all over Singapore with the exception, of course, of the houses built in urban areas, because of the high cost of land and the better type of construction that is required in urban areas.

For what we call an emergency one-room unit which is let out at $20 per month to Singapore citizens, the approximate subsidy per unit per mouth varies from $15.50 to $18.50, depending upon the cost of the structure. For what we call the standard one-room unit in a suburban area where a rental of $26 is being charged, the subsidy per unit per month is $15. For the improved one-room units, some of which have been built and some of which will be built in the central area and where the rental charge is $36.50 in the central area and $30 in a suburban area, the subsidy varies from $15 to $18 per unit per month, depending upon the price of land and the cost of construction in each area. For the standard two-room unit in the central area where the rent is $66.50, and in the suburban area where the rent is $46.50, the subsidy per unit per month is round about $9.80 to $10. For the improved two-room unit where the rent charged in a central area is $66.50, the subsidy varies from $10 to $15 per unit per month. For the standard three-room unit in a central area where the rent is $96.50, and in a suburban area it is $66.50, the subsidy varies from $2 to $5 per unit per month.

All in all, Mr Speaker, Sir, there are now over 80,000 units let out to the public under the management of the Housing and Development Board, and the total subsidy for these units next year is estimated at $8 million. Therefore, the Housing Board is one of the few landlords who do not make money but lose money, all for a good cause, and that is to provide better housing for the poorer section of our people.

I think I have clarified the question of subsidy here, unless the Member for River Valley has further questions for clarification.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (3)* Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi is not here. Mr Teong Eng Siong.

(* See column: 829 )

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $100*

(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Chow Chiok Hock and Mr Tang See Chim.)

Mr Speaker, Sir, in the last one year, our economy and trade have improved. Even the editorials in the Sin Chew Jit Poh have commented on this.

At a previous sitting, I have already given my views on this. What I want to know is how we can make our economic development keep pace with the requirements of the employment situation in the next five years. In other words, how are we to provide jobs not only for the tens of thousands unemployed, but also for the 50,000 to 60,000 people who will be seeking employment? The Minister for Finance has told us that unemployment is one of our serious social problems. I say, in all fairness, that he is adopting a very cautious attitude to this question. I will quote an excerpt from his speech:

'Although we are full of confidence in the development and future of our economy, this confidence should not be a cause for elation and complacency. This should not make our merchants and people think that things are all right or that the world owes us a living. If we want to progress and survive, we must redouble our efforts to improve our economy which is not the same as that of any other country. So our economic future is full of crises as well as bright prospects which depend on the situation in this part of the world.'

Sir, I quote this excerpt from the speech of the Minister for Finance to express my feelings and share in his sentiments. It shows that not only does he have confidence in our economic future but he also worries about it. This is a sentiment which everybody can share with him.

The Minister for Finance made two points on external trade but he did not explain them in detail to this House. The first is that for the first nine months the imports amounted to about $3,000 million and the exports amounted to about $2,400 million. As a result, there is an unfavourable balance of trade of $600 million.

6.00 p.m.

In other words, we are losing $600 million worth of foreign exchange, although, according to what the Minister for Finance has said in this House, there are about $1,100 million worth of foreign reserves. But if we were to lose so much annually, then the outcome would be disastrous. So I hope he will think of ways to remedy the situation and reduce this unfavourable balance of trade.

The other point is about the increase of external trade. According to reports in the newspapers, we know that the increase in our trade can be ascribed to several factors. One is that South Vietnam's trade with us has increased to a considerable extent.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture (Mr Fong Sip Chee): Point of clarification, Sir.

The Chairman: If Mr Teong is prepared to give way.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): I will not.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: I want to ask a clarification from him, and not from me, Sir.

The Chairman: If Mr Teong will not give way, I cannot help it. Mr Teong, please proceed.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Trade between South Vietnam and us has increased. This is mainly due to the fact that there is a war going on in Vietnam. It is a rather abnormal situation. But I believe that once the war is ended, then trade in this respect will also reduce. So I believed the Minister will agree with me when I say that if we want to rely on our trade with South Vietnam to keep our economy going well, then that will not be quite reliable. Better prospects for our trade may perhaps to a great extent depend on the trade between Singapore and Indonesia and East European and some Afro-Asian countries. This is a better way out for our trade.

Another point I want to suggest to the Minister is that in future, when our country has any trade treaties with other countries, we should try to attain a balance of trade. For instance, we have signed trade agreements with Russia, Bulgaria, Hungary and other countries. We should see to it that we are able to maintain a balance of trade with these countries so that we will not incur losses in foreign exchange.

Finally, I hope the Minister can inform this House how much profit every year we are getting out of our foreign reserves, amounting to $1,100 million.

The Chairman: The Question is,

"That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $100."

Mr Chow Chiok Hock? Not present. Mr Tang See Chim.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I just want to ask the Finance Minister to clarify a point that was left out in the Budget debate. In his speech he enumerated certain export incentives, and I just want to know, if he could tell the House, whether those export incentives apply to exports to West Malaysia and Malaysia as a whole.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, from the Budget speech of the Finance Minister, we can see that we are able to achieve a balanced budget without tax increases. This, of course, is very encouraging to everybody in Singapore. However, we are still concerned about the increasing population in Singapore which, if unchecked, may go beyond our control. This population growth is getting bigger and bigger, and in order to consolidate our economic position, we have all agreed to rely a great deal on industrialisation in addition to entrepot trade. That means to say that we have to concentrate all our energies and efforts on developing our industries in the various fields.

Mr Speaker, in this connection, I would like to request the Minister to give me some clarification in regard to the factories already set up in Singapore and their manufactures. What kind of protection is given to the manufactures of existing factories in Singapore? What steps has he taken to see that the products of these existing factories can have a place in a foreign market? At the same time, how is he going to ensure that there is local encouragement for the consumption of our own manufactures? Sir, we are encouraging a lot of investors to come here and set up factories. We are doing a lot in this respect. But after these investors have come here to invest, it appears that their manufactures have not reached the standard required. They have not achieved a satisfactory quality in their manufactures. So, in my view, in order to instil further confidence in the manufacturers and to prospective investors and to arouse further interest in our local investments, I feel that the Minister himself should think of these manufacturers by opening up a better consumption market locally. He must take all possible steps to encourage our own people to use our own products, because if our own people do not use our own products, how can we expect foreigners to use our products? This is very inconsistent. That is the situation that I know so far.

I am aware that some Government departments do not even encourage their officers to buy local goods. For example, some articles used in Government departments may be available locally. For instance, the towels, soap, and toilet paper in the Parliament House lavatories. Some towels are from China, soap from other countries, and even the toilet paper comes from a foreign land. These are very common items of local produce available here. If we do not encourage our own people to buy our own goods, how can we expect our manufacturers to sell abroad? Are we asking them to put up their shutters? So without encouraging consumption of local goods, we cannot encourage further investment in our local industries. So I hope the Minister will take positive and effective steps to encourage further consumption of local products. He can put up certain encouraging slogans and give more publicity to encourage our people to use local products. This will go a step further to assist our economic development and bring about a brighter future.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, just now I was privileged to hear a Member on my side, the Opposition side, saying that at the present moment there is an unfavourable balance of trade in Singapore, which is very dangerous to us. We should take remedial action in this respect. The Finance Minister should have more courage.

The Member for River Valley has said that we should have more trade with Indonesia. This is very true and correct, but our Minister in his reply just now did not seem to have enough courage to open up more trade with Indonesia. I am saying this, Mr Speaker, because I was living in Indonesia for quite some time and knew about the conditions there. A local banker has just returned from Djakarta and he has spoken to me on certain matters. According to him, the Government and people of Indonesia would very much welcome our Singapore Government to send a trade mission to Indonesia to have further talks. Except for some technicalities to be taken care of, the time is ripe for us to do this.

What I am trying to say is that our able Minister for Finance should have sufficient courage to send someone over there to talk with them, because in the past there were strong economic and commercial ties between the two countries, and trade with Indonesia constituted about 30 per cent of our total trade.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I wish to have further clarification from the Minister on his answer about the acting posts. I agree with him that we should have qualified people in the civil service. But I was not happy just now when he said that wherever possible civil servants in acting posts should be replaced with persons who are qualified.

Sir, as an ex-civil Servant, I know how much it will hurt a person, who has been acting for so many years, suddenly to find himself substituted by somebody else in the post.

6.15 p.m.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I feel that the Member for Sembawang has swallowed hook, line and sinker, the propaganda line put out by people who are not favourably inclined towards us. He feels that because Singapore has an unfavourable balance of trade, we are in dire danger of losing our external reserves. I think I did say sometime here that we have had an unfavourable balance of trade ever since we can remember, and yet we have still been able to increase our external reserves. When we talk about the unfavourable balance of trade and the figures which he quoted, they only pertain to what we call the visible balance of trade. That is, items on which we can get statistics and to which we can point our fingers. But there are other items which are not taken into consideration in drawing up these statistics. It is my belief that from the invisible balance of trade, from earnings from the port, earnings on services rendered, ship building, ship repairing, tourists and investments, the inflow of capital from abroad, we have been able to maintain our position, so that, in spite of the figures showing that we have an unfavourable balance of trade from year to year, we still find, with prudent budgetting that we able to increase our external reserves. I quite agree with the speakers, including the Member for Sembawang, who say that we should depend more on our neighbours for trade. Of course, it is easier if we can trade more and more with our neighbours. But, at the same time, we are casting our net far and wide. Unfortunately, at the present moment, though Indonesia represents a very large market, because of conditions there and because of the state of the currency, trade with Indonesia is not as much as it should be. Though we would like to sell to Indonesia, what they are interested in at the moment is how much credit we can give. The Member for Tiong Bahru, who, from what I have heard just now, was an ex-teacher (in Indonesia), feels that with courage we can get trade. If trading is that simple, Mr Speaker, I think the courageous elements in our society should become the best traders! I can assure him that, if need be, I will lead a mission to Jakarta if it will serve any useful purpose. But this is not the appropriate time. They have had several missions here, and there are some difficulties with regard to regulations which will have to be clarified before we can really sit down and get going. In fact, we have already signed a trade agreement and yet trade is not going on as briskly as we like. The Member for Tiong Bahru may or may not know it, but quite a large number of our traders have already had visas to go to Jakarta, but owing to the conditions there, they have had second thoughts. They may be lacking in courage, but they are full of prudence and they are quite sagacious businessmen. So if there is any money to be made by going there, I am sure they would pluck up courage to go there. Of course, the idea of entering into a bilateral trade agreement is to see that trade between the two countries balances. That is the main purpose of a bilateral trade agreement. We are not going to enter into an agreement with a country and say, "We will buy more from you than we sell to you." No. We say, "Whatever you sell to us, you must buy from us." The idea of a bilateral trade agreement is a balanced trade between the two.

The Member for Sembawang wants to know how much we earn from investments of our foreign reserves abroad. Mr Speaker, Sir, in the revenue accounts they are all lumped together. It is very difficult to separate interest earnings from investments abroad and locally. But I would say roughly it is in the region of between $10 million and $11 million annually on the one thousand and odd million dollars worth of foreign reserves that we hold.

I am not sure whether or not the Member for Delta has talked about the Family Planning Association, and whether she has heard about the progress this Association has made during the last few years. Reports from my colleague, the Minister for Health, indicate that the population explosion is well contained and the rate of increase of the population, which was growing at the rate of about 4 per cent plus after the war, has come down to 2.4 per cent or so. Therefore, we have been able to contain the terrific increase in the rate of population growth immediately after the war.

As to what we are doing to protect local industries, I can only assume that the fact that the toilet paper and towels in Parliament are not locally manufactured is due to the fact that these are probably stocks that are carried forward, because directives have been sent time and time again to every Department in Government that preference should be given to buy local products wherever possible, even though there is a difference of 15 per cent in prices or more. I am sure, Mr Speaker, Sir, you will personally look into this question yourself so that we would not have toilet soap from China and perfumed soap from France.

The Member for Delta asked what we have done to aid industrialists whom we have persuaded to invest their money here. I think I have mentioned that we have already given some incentives. In this year's budget we have given them more incentives. To see that they get at least a fair share of the local market, that at least they would have a chance to capture some of the local market, we have imposed quotas so that products of a similar nature from abroad are either restricted in the quantity that can be imported here or they have to pay duty on coming in here. So, by and large, the prices which importers of consumer goods from abroad charge for their goods would be higher than local goods. The rest, of course, is left to the population themselves. They should realise that it is through buying locally made goods that we will be able to help ourselves and create the employment which we so much require.

As regards the incentives for exports which have been announced here, Malaysia will be counted as a foreign country. Therefore, exports to Malaysia will qualify for these incentives.

I cannot agree with the Member for Sembawang when he says that we are now in a fortunate, position because trade has increased on account of the Vietnam war, but that we cannot depend on it alone. Quite true. We cannot depend on it alone. But he adds a rider and says that when the Vietnam war is ended - I do not know; I do not think anyone knows when it will be ended - there will be less trade. I think when the Vietnam war is ended, if and when it is ended, there will be more trade, because you need more goods for reconstruction and development than for destruction. But I agree with him entirely that as much as possible we should try to depend on our neighbours. Unfortunately, our neighbours do not want us to depend on them. So let us be independent ourselves and find other markets further afield, and if the markets nearby do come to some sort of arrangement or feel that it is time that they consider that we should co-exist, then well and good, we will have more markets.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Aljunied thinks that it is an insult to a civil servant who, having acted in a post, is later on considered to be unfit to hold that post substantively. I can assure him that in more cases than not, when a person has been acting there, the chances of his getting a promotion are much better. Because of a lack of suitable officers at the moment, we cannot help but make use of a few officers for the time being. But, as I have said, the tendency for officers to act too long in the post is becoming less and less, because we are getting more and more qualified people from both our universities and from abroad.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, I would like to say that I have not been tricked by the propaganda of other persons. As a matter of fact, we cannot deny that there is an unfavourable trade balance. But I am glad to learn, that the Minister for Finance has clarified the position further by saying that this unfavourable balance has been offset by income from, invisible sources, such as the provision of services, shipping and repairs, etc. That means that our prosperity is a stable one. In other words, it is well-rooted and not a superficial prosperity. In any case, Mr Speaker, I believe our Finance Minister will agree with what I have said, that is, there is a problem to be solved in relation to trade expansion overseas. We must try to cut down our overseas investments and our unfavourable trade balance. If we do not have an unfavourable trade balance, we will be able to earn more foreign exchange. This will go a step further in developing our industries. As a result of this development and construction, there will be more employment opportunities for our people and their livelihood will be further improved.

Talking about the war in Vietnam, I am not disputing that we should have any trade with Vietnam. No. I remember that during the Korean war there was a lot of trade between Singapore and Korea. It reached an unprecedented peak. But we must have more reliable sources of trade with other countries in the world. Our development in trade will thus be stable and more dependable and we will earn more foreign exchange in future. In any case, I am happy with the explanation given by the Finance Minister. It proves that he has every confidence in our ability to develop further our economy, industries and foreign trade. This, of course, is good news to the two million people in Singapore. It is very encouraging to them.

Mr Lim Kim San: The whole idea of industrialisation is, of course, as far as possible, to reduce the visible unfavourable balance of trade. It is by industrialisation, by exporting the goods that we are manufacturing, that we will be able to reduce the unfavourable balance of trade.

6.30 p.m.

That is one of the main objectives of industrialisation, to save foreign exchange, to sell more and, last but the most important, of course, to give more jobs to our people.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): I thank the Minister for Finance for his detailed explanation. I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $53,010,080 for Head 0801 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0804 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0804 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2191.

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy is not present. Mr Lim Cheng Lock, amendment No. (2) .

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0804 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2221.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I notice that the Minister for Finance is very generous towards the labour movement in this respect -- that the contribution to the Labour Research Unit is more than double that for 1966. I assume the increased contribution is to pay for the cost of staff and equipment for the National Productivity Centre which the N.T.U.C., in the editorial of Berjuangan, of December 1966, has been criticising the Government, because of the delay in establishing it. I myself am surprised that trade union leaders in this House have not raised this subject. I would appreciate it if the Minister would enlighten us.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the provision of this $428,000 has nothing to do with the setting up of a National Productivity Centre. In fact, the allocation of $200,000 for the N.T.U.C. Research Unit for 1966 was made on the assumption that there was a surplus of $200,000 to be carried forward from 1965. This assumption, however, was not correct. The actual surplus was just over $58,000. This was discovered after the Estimates for 1966 had already been passed and, therefore, the provision in the Estimates of $200,000 was found insufficient to maintain the N.T.U.C. Research Unit for 1966. Subsequently a grant of an additional $276,500 was made by the Treasury. First, the total expenditure for the N.T.U.C. Research Unit for 1966 was $476,500 and not $200,000 as provided for. The provision of $428,000 for 1967 is, in fact, less than the sum that was provided for in 1966.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, would it be appropriate if I were to ask the Minister when this National Productivity Centre would come into being and whether any funds are being provided?

The Chairman: The particular subhead we are dealing with does not cover the National Productivity Centre.

Mr Lim Kim San: You could ask a question for oral answer.

The Chairman: Could you follow it up with a question for oral answer in the House, Mr Lim Cheng Lock?

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker. Sir, I will do so. In view of that, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0804 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2254.

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy is not here.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir, can I have a clarification from you? Would it be in order for a Member to move an amendment that has been put down in the name of another Member?

The Chairman: I believe you can only do so if you have his written authority. Otherwise the amendment will lapse.

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0804 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2281.

The Chairman: Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here. Mr Lingam, amendment No. (5) .

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0804 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2482.

Sir, when I, together with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs, had the opportunity of visiting the Commonwealth Institute in London some time last year, I saw a statue of Sir Stamford Raffles and a drawing of the old Chinatown of Singapore at the Singapore Corner. But I presume this image of Singapore might have been changed due to our attainment of independence. If not, can the Government see to it that the image of Singapore is portrayed in a manner befitting our new status?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is a long time since the Member for Aljunied had the pleasure of taking a trip to London and looking at the exhibits there. My reports are that at the moment Singapore's exhibits comprise the following:-

A first-class illuminated diorama of Singapore Island giving a bird's eye view of the whole territory from Clifford Pier to the Causeway;

An illuminated map of the world mechanically operated showing Singapore as a centre with flashing lights, indicating the various trade routes and values of goods carried; and

Many displays and first-class photographs in panels showing racial types of industries, educational facilities, housing, population, etc.

Anyway, Mr Speaker, Sir, we have just set up an Embassy in London and will ask our Ambassador to make a review of all our commitments there. It is expected that by April next year, we will have a full report from our Embassy on the Commonwealth Institute. After that, following this report, we will have to decide whether it is worth while to continue to maintain Singapore Corner or not. If it is worth while, improvements could be made.

Mr Lingam: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $8,026,850 for Head 0804 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0807 -

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1191.

Sir, this is regarding late payment of Radio and T.V. licences. I wish to bring to the notice of the Minister concerned that an alleged offender has to pay a compound fee and, in addition to that, he has to get his licence renewed from the date it expired. I will quote an example, Sir. Suppose a person fails to renew his licence in time, say, on the 1st June, 1966. The Licensing Department sends him a reminder and later compounds him. But when the licensee goes to the post office, his new licence is issued from the date his old licence expired. When the new licence is back-dated, is it right for the department to compound under the present regulations? What is the offence committed? Could the Minister give an explanation?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Regulations expressly require that any renewed licence would be dated from the date of expiry of the old licence, notwithstanding that there has been a compound of late payment or not. That is what the Regulations say. If the Member for Aljunied is dissatisfied, he should move an amendment to the Regulations in this House - a private Member's Bill.

Mr Lingam: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in name of Mr P. Govindaswamy -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2031.

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy is not here. Mr Teong Eng Siong, amendment No. (3) .

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $100.*

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Tang See Chim.)

Mr Speaker, Sir, of the $590 million revenue, the revenue from taxes, customs, etc., takes up the most part, and revenue from investments takes up about $42 million, which includes property taxes in the rural areas. Although it is a small sum to be derived from the rural areas, the Government is implementing a scheme whereby the property tax is $6 per year for an owner-occupied attap house.

6.45 p.m.

On the other hand, generally speaking, the rural people in the lower income group do not have the means to stay in modern concrete houses. Therefore, they need not have to pay large sums of property tax.

Sir, as our Government stands for democratic socialism, it is only right and proper for it to look after the poorer people in the rural areas. Under this Head, I would like to speak on three points which are relevant, and I hope the Minister will give me a reply.

The first point relates to assessment rates of houses in the rural areas. At the moment, I understand the maximum rate is 27 per cent in respect of property tax. I feel it is necessary to consider a reduction in the rate, because the Minister for Finance has announced in this House that the property tax on houses in the urban renewal area will be reduced from 36 per cent to 12 per cent. I have received several complaints from the people. For instance, one man with the surname of Lim occupies a structure with a zinc roof. The property tax on this house was $20 last year. But he received a new bill this year increasing the property tax to $40, which means a 100 per cent increase in property tax. I do not understand the basis of assessment of property tax on attap houses by the Assessment Department. I hope the Minister can explain why the property tax on this man's house has been greatly increased.

The second point relates to the overdue payment of property tax. I have also received several complaints from people in my constituency who were fined from 50 cents to several dollars because payment of property tax was delayed for about two or three months. According to what they told me, it seems that they were not to blame. They did not pay property tax as they did not receive any notice and no reminders were sent to them. This was probably due to the postmen who, being new, were not able to locate their addresses. Therefore, there was no delivery of notices to their addresses, as a result of which they did not know about them and payment of property tax was delayed. The officers in the department concerned did not accept the explanations given by these people. Of course, according to regulations, they can be rightly fined for delaying payment of property tax, but, according to their explanations, it would appear that we were rather unfair to them.

Another point is that the Minister for Finance has announced that property tax on houses in the urban area will be reduced from 36 per cent to 12 per cent. I would like to ask him whether he has any intention of reducing property tax on houses in the rural areas as well.

The Chairman: The Question is,

"That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $100.'

Mr Tang See Chim? Mr Lim.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, some Back-benchers probably think that Ministers are having an easy time without an Opposition here, for when they move amendments, they do not give us the courtesy of moving them under the appropriate heads and they leave us guessing as to what subjects they are going to talk on. We have the Member for Sembawang moving a reduction of $100 to the sum allocated for Head 0807 which touches on income tax, estate duty, general collection section, etc. So, Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not know whether or not you will give a ruling, but I think it is only fair and customary courtesy for a Member to move his amendment, wherever possible, under a specific Head if it is shown in the Estimates. That is just by the way.

I am afraid the Member for Sembawang has completely not realised or misunderstood the purpose of the incentive for urban renewal - the incentive we give by reducing property tax from 36 per cent to 12 per cent for those developers who are willing to participate with us in the urban redevelopment of the country. I cannot see any connection between this incentive to people to invest and develop properties in the centre of the city and the question of the rate of property tax in the rural areas. The $6 concession is a very special concession given to those people who have attap houses. The Member is asking for a reduction of 27 per cent in property tax on houses in the rural areas, and here, Mr Speaker, Sir, one begins to realise more and more that the division between the rural and urban areas in Singapore is a fictitious one, because the whole of Singapore is very fast becoming an urban area. The reason why the rate of property tax in the rural area is lower than that in the urban area is that formerly in the rural areas people did not get all the services available to those living in the urban area - services which have to be paid for somehow or other, and payment for part of the services is derived from the collection of property tax. Therefore, there is a difference between the rate of property tax in the urban area and that in the rural area. It is a distinction which is very hard to see because, as I have said, Singapore is gradually becoming an urban area right through. Therefore, from a logical point of view, instead of reducing the rate of property tax in the rural areas now that most of the rural areas are getting the advantage of the services that are available in the urban area, the rate of property tax in the rural areas should come up to that in the urban area. However, Mr Speaker, Sir, we have many different rates of property tax in Singapore, and these are relics of the old days when circumstances were different. I think very soon we will have to sit down and really think of a way to standardise property tax. But with present commitments, as it were, we should count ourselves most fortunate that, apart from the new form of assessing road tax and the increase in car licence tax, we have no additional taxation. I think all of us should heave a sigh of relief, instead of considering ways of reducing taxation.

The Member has brought up the case of one of his constituents whose assessment was almost doubled and he wondered on what basis the assessment was raised. By and large, I think there is a review of assessment where the assessor feels that his property has been under-valued and his criterion would be how much rent is being paid by properties of a similar type around that area. I think in the case mentioned by the hon. Member, if the person concerned is not satisfied - or anybody for that matter - with the assessment raised, there are procedures available to him for making an appeal. The Member has also said that it is unfair that some persons who never received notices of assessment or whose addresses could not be found were fined between 50 cents and $5 for delay in payment. Mr Speaker, Sir, any property owner should know that property tax is due on the 1st of January, and I believe there is a period, up to the 15th of March, within which he has to pay. Therefore, if you are a property owner, it is incumbent upon you to pay your property tax within that period.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $3,993,570 for Head 0807 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0809 -

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0809 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to touch on the Imports and Exports Office. I would appreciate it if the Minister could give this House a breakdown of the number of import and export permits issued by the Imports and Exports Office for goods imported and exported by air, sea and land for the first six months of this year.

The second point I wish to raise on this section of the Trade Division is the delay in obtaining approval for import and export permits.

7.00 p.m.

Whilst appreciating the Minister's Budget Statement on cutting red tape and achieving results, I would ask if he could look into this section and see whether improvements could, be made, as I believe that this section has been operating since the shipping era, and with the movements of goods by air now rapidly taking place, this slowness in getting an import and export permit is a hindrance.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, the Member for River Valley is asking for a very detailed breakdown of figures of trade. I am afraid I cannot give this to him, but if he would like to follow it up with Questions, I will be able to give it to him later on. Roughly, I would say that there are about -

Mr Tang See Chim: I have the Monthly Digest of Statistics here.

Mr Lim Kim San: I would say roughly there are about 3,000 to 5,000 inward and outward declarations a day, and I do not think they are broken up as to how much are by land, sea and air. So even if I should be supplied with these monthly statistics by my Friend, the Member for Choa Chu Kang, the figures are not available there.

Normally an export and import declaration will be cleared within 24 hours. The delays are in respect of those declarations where an inadequate description of the goods is given, or in respect of those goods where there is a quantitative restriction or quotas. In certain cases also these declarations have to be sent to the Statistics Coding Section for them to be placed under the right code for statistical purposes. In instances of this nature, there would inevitably be some delay, but where sufficient information is given and where no reference need be made to departments like Veterinary, Culture, Health, or Police to ensure that the goods imported do conform to the regulations for health or security purposes, then normally they would all be cleared within 24 hours.

The Member requests that goods consigned by air should be given priority for clearance. Mr Speaker, Sir, whether they come by air, sea or land, the goods have to conform to our import restrictions. And here again where sufficient details and descriptions of the goods are given, they would be cleared very quickly. So the delay complained of is not due to a shortage of staff but to certain procedures which have to be followed. The Member must understand that quotas and tariff restrictions have been imposed after our separation from Malaysia. Though there may be hitches at the moment, they are all being ironed out. But it is inevitable that there will be a little bit more delay in the case of those goods where there are certain regulations governing them than in the case of other goods.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Before I withdraw this amendment, Mr Speaker, Sir, I would again ask the Minister if he could get his Director to see whether any improvements could be achieved. If so, I think it would benefit the business community. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Tang See Chim -

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0809 be reduced by $100.

Mr Tang See Chim: I do not wish to move, Sir.

The sum of $1,205,300 for Head 0809 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0810 -

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0810 be reduced by $100.

I am here, Mr Speaker, Sir, to hand a bouquet to the Statistics Department. This I do in spite of an editorial comment in a Chinese daily to the effect that Back-benchers spend more time in praising the Ministers than criticising them, and that there is no substance in what Back-benchers said.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Point of order. Will the hon. Member for Choa Chu Kang please quote the name of the newspaper concerned and the date?

The Chairman: Mr Tang, in fact, standing Orders require you to do that.

Mr Tang See Chim: Yes. The name of the newspaper concerned is the Sin Chew Jit Poh and the editorial appeared in this morning's edition.

The Chairman: And we are relying upon you for an accurate translation.

Mr Tang See Chim: Yes. I happen to read Chinese, Mr Speaker, Sir. I am not blowing my own trumpet, but this in effect would be the gist of the editorial.

The Chairman: I was merely trying to draw the attention of the House to the fact that it is your translation of the editorial and not someone else's.

Mr Tang See Chim: Yes, it is my own, Mr Speaker, Sir. In spite of the editorial comment, as I have said, I am here to hand a bouquet to the Statistics Department. I think Members of Parliament must be able to discharge their duties without fear or favour, to criticise the Ministers where criticism is deserved, and to praise them where praise is due.

In this case, for example, Mr Speaker, I think the Statistics Department is doing a marvellous job. I have a copy of the Monthly Digest of Statistics here with me, and from what I can see the collection of facts and figures appears to be quite comprehensive. This copy, by the way, Mr Speaker, is for November 1966. We are now only in the middle of December and we could get the November issue within the first half of the following month with facts and figures for as recent as September. I think this is pretty good going, especially in view of the fact that there appears to be a shortage of statisticians in the department.

The only point that I can possibly raise is that the collection of industrial production statistics does not appear to be quite comprehensive. The department appears not to have caught up with the fast pace of industrialisation that is at present going on in Singapore. This, no doubt, will be remedied by the department in time. On the whole, Mr Speaker, Sir, as I have said, the Statistics Department is doing a marvellous job and I am here to pay a tribute to it.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I cannot claim any credit at all for the work done by the Statistics Department. It has been going on for quite some time and advantage has been taken of modern technology, as a result of which we are able to get these statistical digests within the first fortnight of the preceding month.

I am sure the suggestion put forward by the Member for Choa Chu Kang will be considered by the Statistics Department.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, from what I have said just now, I think it follows that I must necessarily withdraw my amendment. Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, we cannot speak on any Head unless a reduction in the vote is moved, as this is under Standing Orders. I hope the editor of the newspaper concerned will not think that because we move to reduce the vote, we must criticise. Consequently, Mr Speaker, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,308,420 for Head 0810 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0901 -

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Mr Speaker, Sir, when the re-registration of the national identity card came into being, it appears that it threw the whole machinery of the issue of citizenship out of gear.

[Mr Tang See Chim in the Chair]

7.14 p.m.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Some time back it took an average of about six months for an application for Singapore citizenship to be processed and issued. But for the last one year I believe it has taken more than a year.

7.15 p.m.

Sometimes when an application is submitted, it takes many months before the applicant is called for an interview. I think this position is quite unsatisfactory, because citizenship is most valuable these days. If the process is being delayed unduly, it does affect the livelihood of some of the applicants who depend on the expeditious issue of the citizenship certificate. In moving this amendment, I would appreciate it if the Minister would look into this matter since the registration of the identity card is coming to a close very soon.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Tang, now the people of Singapore who are holders of identity cards issued in 1948 or 1949 and who were born in Singapore could obtain the pink identity card without the necessity of obtaining citizenship. Originally these holders were unable to obtain the pink identity cards. The holders of pink identity cards were previously rejected. I wish to obtain an assurance from the Minister in charge whether it is really necessary for holders of pink identity cards to obtain citizenship papers. Are they still required to obtain Singapore citizenship papers?

The Chairman (Mr Tang See Chim): If there is no other Member who wishes to speak, I shall call upon the Acting Minister for Labour to reply.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Tang, I am not the Acting Minister for Labour, but anyway I am answering for the Acting Minister for Labour.

The Chairman (Mr Tang): You are the Acting Acting Minister for Labour then!

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Tang, it is true that an applicant for citizenship has to wait for some time before he is interviewed and before his application is approved. This is inevitable as every application has to be thoroughly investigated not only to determine the length of residence of the applicant but also whether he fulfils the other conditions for citizenship, such as good character, etc. In addition, some applicants must pass an elementary national language examination. While we were in Malaysia, the Citizenship Registry dealt with an average of 40 cases a day. After independence, however, there was a rush of applications for citizenship. This was because citizenship is essential for Housing Board accommodation, free education and other social amenities. The number of applications increased to as many as 600 a day, whereas the staff could only cope with interviewing 60 to 70 applicants a day. This resulted in the Registry having to stagger the dates of interview of applicants. At one stage, the interval between the issue of an application form and the date of the interview was as long as one year. However, in the middle of this year, the Registry staff was increased, resulting in the Registry being able to cope with 140 interviews a day. At present, the situation has improved with the Registry dealing with about 150 applications a day, and the waiting period for the interview has been reduced to seven or eight months. With the completion of the national re-registration exercise, it is expected that the Citizenship Registry will be able to deal with applications, more expeditiously. The Government is fully aware of the unavoidable delay which has taken place during the last one year. In fact, the Central Complaints Bureau has recently made a survey of the Citizenship Registry and has submitted certain recommendations to facilitate the control of queues and cut down delays.

The Member for Kampong Kembangan has raised the question whether persons who are issued with the new pink citizenship identity cards will not in future be required to register for citizenship. I can confirm categorically here that holders of the new pink laminated identity cards are Singapore citizens and, therefore, the question of their applying for citizenship does not arise.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: In view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the names of Mr Lim Cheng Lock and Mr P. Govindaswamy -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1251.

The Chairman (Mr Tang): Mr Lim. Mr Lim Cheng Lock: I am not moving, Sir. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy - That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1351. The Chairman (Mr Tang): Mr Govindaswamy is not here. Mr Lim, amendment No. (4) . Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Tang, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3003.* (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr S .V. Lingam.) Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to seek some information from the Minister as regards today's expenditure. At this sitting we were informed that national re-registration would be completed some time at the end of the year. Could the House be informed as to the nature of the expenditure of this sum of over half a million dollars? Column: 854 Mr Lingam: Sir, I have spoken on the matter of issuing identity cards to citizens who have acquired their citizenship after getting the new plastic identity cards. When a non-citizen who has already obtained a blue identity card gets his Singapore citizenship, he has to get a red identity card. In answer to my question in Parliament, the Minister for Labour said that for such a change the fee is only 50 cents. But even after the announcement by the Minister, the registration officer insisted on a payment of $5 because he thought it was a replacement. I can show a letter written by the registration officer to prove this. He did not think this was a change. He considered this a replacement. No one will say that the change to a red identity card from a blue identity card can be considered a replacement. Lately, I spoke to the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Labour, on this matter and he promised to look into it. And now I am informed that he has referred it to the Attorney-General and a ruling has been made that the fee for such a change is only 50 cents. I am really very happy to know about this decision. But there is one more point, and this is the refund of money colleted in excess from the public for such changes. I am told that a number of persons, including the son of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, paid $5 for changing the blue identity card for a red one. Can the Minister consider the refund of excess fees collected and make a public announcement? Mr Ong Pang Boon: The national re-registration, although scheduled to be completed by the end of this year, is likely to be carried forward till the end of January 1967. Up to 10th December, 1,184,836 persons have been registered for the new laminated cards. Of this number, 1,055,242 persons are citizens. It is estimated that about 50,000 more people come forward to change their identity cards. The sum of $561,200 has been provided for under O.C.S.E. for permanent staff and temporary clerks, who will still be required to carry on with the day-to-day administration of the National Reregistration Column: 855 Office. This involves the re-registration of school children who will reach the age of 12 next year. In addition, work has to be carried on to build up the various index systems, like the identity card serial index, alias names index, Chinese character index, and the alphabetical index register. There is also the work of sorting and matching the old identity cards against their counterfoils to detect any forgery. A block vote has been entered under O.C.S.E. by Treasury, since the starting requirements for the National Re-registration Office in 1967 cannot be adequately assessed at this stage. A staff survey will be conducted in 1967 to determine the number of permanent posts required. The present provision provides for the payment of $137,000 for permanent staff, $400,000 for temporary clerks, and $23,500 for annually recurrent expenditure. [Mr Speaker in the Chair] 7.30 p.m. Coming to the point raised by the Member for Aljunied, it is confirmed that where a person who has obtained a non-citizen identity card subsequently obtains Singapore citizenship and applies for a Singapore citizen identity card, he has to pay only a fee of 50 cents, as he will, in fact, be applying for a new identity card, i.e., an identity card of a different type. It is true that in a number of cases the Commissioner for National Registration has misinterpreted the Regulations and collected $5. However, action is being taken to refund to such applicants the excess fee collected. Mr Lim Cheng Lock: In view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendment, No. (5) , stood in the names of Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi, Mr Tang See Chim and Inche Mahmud Awang - That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $100. Column: 856 The Chairman: Inche Mohd. Ariff, amendment No. (5) . Inche Mohd. Ariff: I am not moving, Sir. The Chairman: Mr Tang See Chim. Mr Tang See Chim: I am not moving, Sir. The Chairman: Inche Mahmud Awang. Inche Mahmud Awang (Kampong Kapor) ( In Malay ): Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move, That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $100. Mr Speaker, action to strike was taken by the Singapore Traction Company workers recently in respect of which the union gave 14 days' strike notice to the employers. When the notice to strike was about to expire, the strike was not carried out. As we have learnt, not only from union members of the S.T.C., but also from leaders of the union who made a statement, the reason for not carrying out the strike was that the laws of our Republic forbid trade unions from carrying out a strike. On this matter, I am of the opinion that it is very essential to clarify the democratic policy of the Labour Ministry, i.e., what the attitude of the Labour Ministry is towards labour unions in Singapore which wish to carry out strike action after they have duly complied with the regulations of the Labour Ordinance by taking a ballot to strike. If it is true that the prohibition against the unions going on strike emanates from the Government of this Republic through the Minister for Labour, then I am of the opinion that our labour policy is not yet implemented fully. If the statements made by the leaders and members of the S.T.C. Union are not true, then it must be clarified to the public that the Government of the Republic, through the Minister for Labour, does not prevent unions from going on strike if they have a mandate for it. I say so, Mr Speaker, because we do not wish to see union leaders making mistakes and then shifting the blame on to the Government and the Ministry of Column: 857 Labour. This must be clarified and the matter rectified so that the attitude and policy of the Labour Ministry can be implemented properly. Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, as far as I understand, there is no law in Singapore which forbids any union which wants to go on strike, to strike. However, the law does provide that in the case of an essential service, 14 days' notice will be required. Or when a case is referred to the Arbitration Court, then no strike will be permitted. If what the Member for Kampong Kapor has said is true, then I think the union officials who made the allegation to their members that the laws of the State forbid any strike, are just trying to shift their responsibility to the Government. As far as labour disputes are concerned, the attitude of the Labour Ministry has always been to try to bring both parties together to come to an amicable settlement without having to resort to strikes; and also to see that the employers comply with all the provisions of the Labour Ordinance. I do not think it is the policy of the Labour Ministry to forbid any strike if it is justified, and if the necessary procedures are complied with by the union. Inche Mahmud Awang rose - The Chairman: Are there any other Members who wish to speak at this stage? Hon. Members indicated dissent. Inche Mahmud Awang ( In Malay ): Mr Speaker, if the explanation given by the Minister for Education, on behalf of the Minister for Labour, is correct, I am prepared to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $2,234,500 for Head 0901 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. Column: 857 Head 0902 - Inche Mohd. Ariff ( In Malay ): Mr Speaker, I beg to move, That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0902 be reduced by $100. Mr Speaker. I would like to know how many cases have been heard by the Column: 858 two Arbitration Courts for the years 1965 and 1966 and how many cases have not been settled or heard yet. Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, for 1965 and 1966 the two Industrial Arbitration Courts disposed of 230 cases. Of these, awards were handed down in 116 cases, and the other 114 cases were settled out of court by the parties and by the Registrar under the direction of the Court. As regards pending cases, the position of the two Courts as at 12th December, 1966 was as follows: Cases pending award 10 Cases currently being heard and pending 52 Cases to be withdrawn 18 If the cases to be withdrawn and the cases pending award are not taken into account, then the number of cases currently being heard and pending amounts to only 52. Of these, 18 are currently being heard by the two Courts, leaving a balance of 34 cases for which dates of hearing have not been fixed, in some instances at the request of the disputing parties. This is a distinctly favourable position to carry forward into 1967. The Courts have never been in such a favourable position since the last President relinquished office on 14th September, 1964. These 52 cases, if roughly divided between the two Courts will put the current position at 26 cases per Court. This is a manageable position for the Courts. Inche Mohd. Ariff ( In Malay ): I beg to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $363,590 for Head 0902 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. Column: 858 Head 1001 - Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1051. Sir, the well-being of a nation very often is related to the health of her people, and to what extent sports in the countries flourishes is evidenced in the various power bloc nations. Singapore Column: 859 as an independent Republic should regard sports as one of its main concerns. 7.45 p.m. The construction of a Sports Stadium Complex is directed towards the promotion of sports and a future healthy generation, for it is with a healthy mind and body that the next generation will be able to shoulder the task of nation-building and to bring about a society that has social discipline and its own identity. Sir, in recent weeks, there were two international sports meets beginning - Mr Lingam: On a point of information, Sir. The Chairman: Mr Sim, I am sure you are prepared to give way. Mr Sim Boon Woo: No, Sir. I think I will speak a little longer - The Chairman: Mr Sim, please - Mr Sim Boon Woo resumed his seat. Mr Lingam: Some of us have not prepared our notes in respect of the Head on the Ministry of Culture and Social Affairs. We thought it would be taken on Monday so that we could prepare our notes tomorrow and Sunday. The Chairman: I am afraid I cannot help it. The times given are not the times for starting but the times at which I will terminate the debate. In view of that and in view of the willingness of the Minister for Culture and Social Affairs to deal with any matters that arise, I am afraid I must allow the debate to continue. Mr Sim. Mr Sim Boon Woo: The Member for Aljunied had to waste my time! Just now I have said that during recent weeks, we had two international sports meets beginning with GANEFO and later the Fifth Asian Games in Bangkok which is now still in progress. Singapore has the privilege and opportunity to participate in these two meets, and although the results of these games Column: 860 are not up to our expectations, we have at least succeeded in strengthening the fraternal ties with other participating countries and establishing contacts with a lot of new friends. For us, our participation in these two meets is not to win medals, for we have a long way to go to attain the requisite standards of performance at international level. Our participation in these sports meets appeared to be merely that while the players sweated it out in the arena, the officials took it as a vacation or sight-seeing trip! One example is that, apart from the experience gained, our participation in the Twenty-sixth Table Tennis Tournament held in Peking 1961 was not at all exploited, and there appears to be no adequate post-mortem, apart from the meaningless Press statements issued by the Team official on his return. Sir, the source of the problem lies with the leadership of the various sport organisations. We are aware, Mr Speaker, Sir, that there is a personality in Singapore who, by his high-handed manner in dealing with other sports associations by virtue of his position, is regarded by sports-loving people with distaste and as a sports "racketeer". I have sufficient evidence to show the deplorable state of affairs in some sports organisations, particularly in three or four of them which are under the leadership of the same person. Sir, without prejudice and reflection on other sports enthusiasts who are always the objects of my admiration, one cannot see the logic of a man manoeuvring as the President of a group of sports organisations whose activities are so diverse - for example, the Singapore Table Tennis Association, the Singapore Amateur Wrestling Association, and the Singapore Amateur Cycling Association are under the leadership of one man. The only common bond among these associations, as far as I can see, is sports and perhaps monetary benefits. These associations are capable of exploiting all sports-loving people. Sir, I know it is difficult for the Minister to reply to what I have just said in the absence of details and facts, but Column: 861 I am quoting this as an example to justify my fear and the anxiety of the majority of our sports-loving public who would undoubtedly like to see whatever donation to any sports association is properly expanded. Further, to support my statement, I would like to point out to the Minister that the three sports organisations under the leadership of one person, I understand, have to pay no less than $100 each as monthly rental for their premises which happen to be the homes of the official or his relatives. In short, these three associations pay not less than $100 a month each for one and the same room under the same roof, and all the financial resources of these three associations are used for his own benefit! Finally, Mr Speaker, Sir, I regret to have to deal with this matter at length, but for the benefit of sports in our Republic - The Chairman: Mr Sim, I am very reluctant to interrupt you. But I must question your ability to relate the three organisations to which you are referring, to the responsibility of the Minister for Culture and Social Affairs. The other point is this. Some of the things you have said might reflect upon the conduct and character of someone outside. I would like to refer you to Standing Order 46 (1) which states: 'No reference shall be made to the conduct or character of any Member or of any public servant, other than his conduct in his capacity as a Member or as a public servant.' I do not know whether or not the person you are referring to is a public servant. Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I am referring to his capacity as a sports official and organiser and not as a civil servant. The Chairman: But is he a public servant? Mr Sim Boon Woo: By profession? The Chairman: Yes. Mr Sim Boon Woo: I am not able to say that. An hon. Member: He is a public servant. Column: 862 The Chairman: I do not know the person the hon. Member is referring to. I have not heard of these organisations before. But if the person referred to is a public servant, then I must draw the Member's attention to this Standing Order, that he cannot refer to this person's conduct or character, outside his capacity as a public servant. Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I merely want to bring this to the notice of the Minister. Although we have this Sports Promotion Officer, I want the Minister to take another step further and see that all sports promotions do not benefit only a few persons who are supposed to be sports racketeers. The Chairman: Mr Sim, you must not use words like "racketeers" in the House. But you may certainly continue speaking on your amendment provided you have this particular Standing Order in mind. Mr Sim Boon Woo: Yes, Sir. Thank you for your pertinent ruling. In conclusion, Mr Speaker, Sir, I call upon the Minister to set up, if it is possible, a Sports Institute to train our local sports talent. An hon. Member: What Council? Mr Sim Boon Woo: It is an Institute not a Council! The Chairman: Order. Mr Sim Boon Woo: And to acquire the services of coaches from other advanced countries in the field of sports, to offer every encouragement and incentive to local sportsmen, and to help solve the unemployment problem of our local talented sportsmen. The Minister for Culture and Social Affairs (Inche Othman Bin Wok): Mr Speaker, Sir, it is the policy of Government to encourage sports in Singapore in order to enable the participants to reach an international standard in as many sporting events as possible. The creation of a Sports Division in the Ministry of Culture and Social Affairs is a positive way of helping sports organisations and individual Column: 863 sportsmen to achieve this objective. The National Stadium Complex is to be built at a cost of $15 million and it will include a football stadium, a swimming pool, an athletic track and a gymnasium all of which will be of international standards. Sir, it is beyond the Sports Department's duty to direct sports organisations, which are registered under the Societies Ordinance, to acquire or to rent beautiful and posh premises befitting their activities or their size. I think it is up to the organisations themselves to choose what type of premises they think they can afford. In the case mentioned by the Member for Changi, perhaps it is convenient for the three sports organisations, which he says are under one roof or in one small room, - Mr Sim Boon Woo: In one small room Column: 864 Inche Othman Bin Wok: - because they are all run by the same officials - 8.00 p.m. The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption. Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House. Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress on the Estimates of Expenditure for 1967, and beg leave to sit again on Monday, the 19th of December. Mr Speaker: Monday, the 19th of December, it shall be. ADJOURNMENT Resolved, "That the House do now adjourn."- [Mr Lim Kim San]. Adjourned accordingly at Eight o'clock p.m.