ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR 1968

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [1st Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

The Chairman: Estimates of Expenditure of Singapore for the year 1968 contained in Paper Cmd. 26 of 1967. For the convenience of hon. Members, I intend taking the total for each head of expenditure as it appears in the last column of the Abstract of Estimated Expenditure on pages 53 and 54 of the Paper.

Dealing first with the heads of expenditure in respect of which amendments stand on the Order Paper Supplement -

Head 0103 -

Mr Tang See Chim (Choa Chu Kang): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0103 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3002.

Sir, this is in regard to the production of Hansard. I wish to know why the sum is reduced to $4,100, when last year's allocation was $16,000. I wonder whether this drastic reduction will affect its efficiency. At present, I must say that the production of Hansard is very efficient and I can give an example to this House.

During the Budget sitting on 5th December, the Finance Minister ended his Budget Speech sometime, I think, at 4.30 p.m. The next morning at 9.30 the first copy of his speech was ready for the use of Members of this House. I think this is a tribute to the efficiency of the Reporting and Editing Section, and I would like to know why this reduction is made, and also the possible consequences of such a reduction. Would it not lead to inefficiency in the production of Hansard in the future?

The Prime Minister (Mr Lee Kuan Yew): Mr Speaker, Sir, this vote does not refer to the production of Hansard itself but is a vote from which remuneration is paid to part-time staff to assist the Parliamentary Reporters in the overnight production of the first copy. From our experience of the sittings last year, we found that the vote was excessive, as it was not necessary, when the House was not in continuous session, to have copies produced that very same night for Members to have them the following day. Therefore, the vote has been estimated at $4,100 for the following year. It is not the cost of production of Hansard. This is for part-time remuneration paid to people who assist the Parliamentary Reporters in overnight work when the House is in continuous session.

Mr Tang See Chim: I am quite satisfied with the explanation of the Prime Minister, and I wish to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock (Ulu Pandan): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0103 be reduced by $l00*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Tang See Chim.

Sir, since the former Member for Joo Chiat (Dr Fong Kim Heng), who was the Deputy Speaker of this Parliament, resigned, the post of Deputy Speaker has been left vacant. Under subhead 1002 there is still a vote for Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether this House would like to elect a new Deputy Speaker to fill the vacancy. If there is no suitable candidate to fill it, perhaps we can elect a person from outside this Parliament as Deputy Speaker. I hope the Minister concerned can give a satisfactory reply.

Mr Tang See Chim: I am not moving, Sir.

The Prime Minister: This vote stands and has stood in every Budget estimate over the last eight years, and at an appropriate time, when there is an obvious choice for the post of Deputy Speaker, the choice will be made. One of the cardinal principles upon which we must exercise the authority which is vested in us by popular vote, is that it should not be exercised just because there is a vote to be spent. Unless duties require the appointment to be made, and there is a person obviously qualified not only in the opinion of the Members of this Parliament but, even more important, in the opinion of the public outside who are watching us, no appointment will be made.

The last appointment to the office of Deputy Speaker was you, Sir, and I am quite sure that in the next Parliament, which must be elected within three months after the 21st of September, 1968, there will be enough talent amongst the Back-benchers. As Members know, no person who is a Minister or holds any other office of profit, namely, a Parliamentary Secretary or any other such position, can be Speaker or Deputy Speaker. I am quite optimistic that we will be able to justify an appointment to this high office in the not too distant future.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock: (In Mandarin): I am satisfied with the reply given by the Prime Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $664,130 for Head 0103 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0104 -

Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0104 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 2004.

Sir, holders of scholarships and bursaries are lucky to receive these awards. I believe they include pocket expenses and expenses for books. I wonder why there is a vote for Entertainment Expenses. Can the Minister concerned please explain?

The Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, Sir, in December 1963, at the suggestion of the Chairman of the Public Service Commission, I held a dinner for 132 scholars who had completed their studies abroad on scholarships of various kinds. The purpose was not just to entertain them and to congratulate them on having graduated, but more important, to gather them together in a congenial atmosphere and use the occasion to underline the role for which they were groomed to play. The reason why we have taken the trouble to acquire these scholarships -sometimes from foreign missions and donor foundations -is to give them the kind of training in order that they will fulfil their duties to the community of which they form a part.

Having been successful with the first function, we held a second one -a buffet dinner -on 23rd April, 1966, where we had 370 scholars and representatives of foreign missions who had given these scholarships. The purpose was to express our appreciation to these foreign mission representatives for having given the scholarships to our students for training purposes. Similarly a dinner was held on the 1st of July last year. After three successful occasions, Sir, I think it is time that the procedure should be formalised in a vote in the Budget for this purpose.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, will this be a tradition every year?

The Prime Minister: I am unable to predict what my successors in office will do. But in so far as we are concerned, we are satisfied that such a function does serve a purpose. It does bring home to these scholars in a psychologically meaningful way the fact that they owe something to the community that has gone out of its way to organise itself to train them, educate them and get scholarships for them, and therefore it expects them to give something back to the community. The $3,000 in the vote is hardly more than the first month's salary of probably four or five of these students. I think it is worth the effort that is put in. It is not so much the money; but it takes a lot of effort. And Ministers and others who have to attend these functions so frequently consider this a duty and not a pleasure.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

2.45 p.m.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0104 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2005.

Sir, much importance has been stressed on industrial development not only to promote industrial growth but also to maintain the survival of our economy. I note that the sum of $21,600 will be allocated for the "Industrial Development Scholarships Scheme" next year as against $49,200 this year. Perhaps the Prime Minister would care to elaborate on this. Sir, such scholarships will definitely help the industrial development of our young Republic. In this connection, I shall be grateful if the Prime Minister will state the number of scholarships that will be available as against the number this year.

The Prime Minister: Sir, the reason for the estimate being reduced to about 40 per cent of what it was the previous year is that from our experience last year we discovered, partly through the resourcefulness of the Public Service Commission, that quite a number of donor countries were able to provide us with facilities for industrial training. For instance, last year the Belgian Government gave 20 industrial scholarships, and similar awards were made available in France, the United States, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and several other countries. This being so, the amount required to be paid out of the Budget itself is reduced by the amount which was extended in scholarship aid. So we are not unoptimistic that next year these donor countries, with whom we maintain amicable and, we hope, mutually beneficial relationships, will find it in their interest as well as ours to continue to offer industrial training facilities.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank the Prime Minister for his reply and, on that note, may I beg leave to withdraw my amendment?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0104 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2009*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Yeah Ghim Seng.

Sir, I can well remember that the subject of the President's scholarships was raised by my colleague, the hon. Member for Aljunied, in this Chamber on the 15th of this month last year. The Prime Minister in his reply stated that the recipients -I quote from Hansard, Volume 25, No. 10, column 694:

'...are people who have won signal distinction for themselves to merit special privileges for further education.' The Prime Minister further stressed, in the same column, Sir, and I quote:

'...it is hoped to continue a supply of men not only well qualified and competent in their own fields of study but with all the social and other graces which make for the difficult-to-define quality called leadership.' Sir, I can imagine the fierce and keen competition by our brilliant students to win such a high honour. In this respect, Sir, I shall be grateful if the Prime Minister will explain the reduction made in the vote next year, that is, from $143,000 this year to $110,000 next year. Also, will he inform this House of the number of recipients of the President's scholarships this year and the likely number next year?

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng (Joo Chiat): Mr Speaker, Sir, we pride ourselves in this country on our President's scholars, as they represent the cream of our schools and thus of our youths. These scholars are sent abroad as junior ambassadors and are therefore sent with a lot of fanfare and with the country's blessings. For the past few years, Mr Speaker, Sir, the number of school children enrolling in schools must have increased tremendously and, therefore, I would have expected a wider selection of first-class pupils for the coveted and signal honour of being President's scholars. At least, Sir, one would have expected the number of such scholarships to remain the same annually. Yet I see that the 1968 vote has been cut from the 1967 vote of $143,000 to $110,000. Surely, the Public Service Commission or the Prime Minister cannot tell this House that our pupils are deteriorating in their mental capacity. If not, why has there been such a drastic cut in the President's Scholarships vote? Surely such a cut is not very encouraging to our students in the schools because they have been trying their best to gain the honour of being the President's scholars. So, Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope the Prime Minister will reconsider the estimated amount for the vote so that the number of President's scholars for 1968 will remain at least the same as for 1967.

The Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I assure both the Members who have raised this problem that, far from the number of potential talented young men and women reducing in numbers as the years go by, they have, in fact, shown a capacity not only to win the President's scholarships, but also to take a few other scholarships by the way; and the President's scholar is often a person who holds at least one other scholarship. The President's scholarship is given on the basis of merit, not on the basis of need, and inevitably the boy who wins it also gets some other scholarship. When he does that, then, if he is studying abroad, whether it is in the United Kingdom, Australia or Canada, he does not get the full scholarship but he gets an allowance of œ250, because otherwise we will ruin him by giving him too much money.

I have also told Members of the House that last year there were seven President's scholars; three of them decided to study in the University of Singapore, one at the Polytechnic, one in Britain, one in Australia, and one in Canada. They had a free choice of where to go for higher studies. Four out of seven chose to study here. That has also saved us the cost of the passages going overseas. I am quite sure that next year, as in the case of this year, these scholars will also be able to win other awards whilst being the President's scholars.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, one last question. According to the Hansard of 15th December, 1966, there were nine winners for these scholarships last year, but this year there are only seven. I wonder why.

The Prime Minister: I am afraid I must assume that the Public Service Commission puts a very high standard for the attainment of the status of a President's scholar, and if there are not more than seven such scholars, then not more than seven President's scholarships are awarded. It is a very proper way of maintaining standards. It does not mean that just because you have in the Budget Estimates ten posts for Political Secretaries, therefore, we appoint ten Political Secretaries. We do not, as Members well know. We appoint Political Secretaries as and when they are found necessary and as and when there are suitable candidates. I am quite sure the same principles must have applied in the Public Service Commission in not awarding more than seven President's scholarships for this year. They must vary from year to year. Sometimes you have a bumper harvest. In some particular year the wine is of special vintage.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: Is it customary to give a scholar more than one scholarship? Would it not be better to distribute the scholarships around so that more students will benefit?

The Prime Minister: When we instituted the President's Scholarships, we had in mind what used to prevail for many years before the war when the British awarded the Queen's scholarships which were awarded purely on the basis of merit. It does not matter whether the President's scholars need the money or whether they deserve it or do not deserve it for purely financial or social reasons, as long as they have the capacity, the excellence, to merit the award. If they can win other scholarships, then they will not get the full award; but they will get when they go abroad a scholarship allowance of œ50 Sterling per annum in addition to the allowances they have obtained under the other awards, instead of the full cost being borne by Government. It is quite common. The Member for Joo Chiat will know that if he turns up the preface of many of his scholarly journals or books, even in his particular field of surgery, there is great pride in referring to the fact that the man was holding three different scholarships at the time when he was an under-graduate in some college or university. And often because they are holding three different scholarships for which they have competed and won on merit, they do not get in each case the full award of each scholarship. The award is then given to somebody else on the basis of need, that he was not really good enough to get it but because he was fortunate that the man who was good enough to win it had already got another one. He gets the consolation prize.

3.00 p.m.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I am satisfied with the answers given by the Prime Minister and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0104 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2012.

The subject of Malaya Hall -I think it is now called Malaysia Hall -is dear to my heart and I was interested to find that the sum allocated this year was doubled to $300,000. I sought explanation in Appendix H which says that Government's contribution is "shared in proportion of students from each territory including Sabah and Sarawak." I wonder whether the Prime Minister can inform this House whether the number of our students using Malaysia Hall has, in fact, doubled in the course of the year. I was in Malaysia Hall sometime at the beginning of this year and there was no evidence of that.

The Prime Minister: First, may I explain that we paid one-third of the capital cost of acquiring the premises of Malaysia Hall. In other words, in equity we own one of the three fairly substantial houses which were joined together to form Malaysia Hall. This is the first point we want to establish, that we own one-third of the capital. With the accretion of Sabah and Sarawak, we deem that our share of the running expenses should be reduced, but we still nevertheless own one-third of the capital. We were one-third of the student population without including Sabah and Sarawak. With Sabah and Sarawak we consider ourselves one-fourth. So we held up payments for the years 1965 to 1966 and 1966 to 1967 pending clarification in sorting out the proportions. Now it has been agreed that if we take Singapore and Malaysia together, not Singapore and just Malaya, we will pay one-quarter. So this is for two years' payment. Arrears have to be paid up. But in making this point I want to make it quite clear that this does not mean we own one-quarter of Malaysia Hall. We still own one of the three houses in Malaysia Hall. It so happened that we bought three houses and we paid one-third. We are happy to have all the students together even though we are now separate and different countries. But if people should ever consider our students should be excluded, then we will not be collecting one-fourth of three houses but we will be collecting one-third of three houses, which is exactly one house.

Mr Tang See Chim: I wish to withdraw the amendment, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0104 be reduced by $l00*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Tang See Chim.

Sir, as I understand it, the function of the Public Service Commission is to regulate impartially the public service. This Commission works on an independent basis with wide powers to appoint and promote persons in the public service.

The Chairman: Mr Sim, may I just here warn you that we are five minutes short of guillotine time under this Head?

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Yes, Sir. Not forgetting that the Commission has also powers to dismiss any public servant. What I wish to raise in this House today is as a result of rumours being spread about the Public Service Commission. These rumours no doubt are untrue but they have become quite persistent and are damaging to the good name of the Public Service Commission, although I do not believe them.

The Prime Minister: Then do not repeat them.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: I am troubled by these rumours and that is why I hope that by bringing up this matter, these unfounded rumours will be killed once and for all. The talk in the town is that some people are unhappy with the Public Service Commission and that it is prejudiced and biased in selecting candidates for appointments and promotions, to the extent of saying that the Public Service Commission is pro-Chinese. Sir, I do not think this is so.

The Prime Minister: You should not repeat rumours if you do not believe them.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I think the Public Service Commission is doing excellent work. I do hope that when the new Constitution is presented to Parliament, there will be provision for increasing the membership to the Commission so that it will be possible to give a more balanced and multi-racial composition. However, Sir, in making this suggestion I am not casting any aspersions on the office of the Chairman nor on any of the members of the Public Service Commission. As I have pointed out, they are doing excellent work. Hon. Members have had occasion to hear of matters pertaining to certain resignations being brought up in this House and no doubt satisfactory explanations have been given.

The Chairman: Mr Sim, if you want an answer, I am afraid you will have to stop now.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I hope the Prime Minister will seriously consider my suggestion.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, in view of the shortage of time, I just want to bring up one matter and that is the non-recognition by the Public Service Commission of certain American degrees. Will the Prime Minister enlighten us?

The Prime Minister: Sir, I am very disturbed that the Member for Changi, who has been a very politically active and alive individual with the P.A.P, for the last 13 years since its inception, should have forgotten the fundamental principle that the best way to spread a rumour is to repeat it, and the worst place to repeat it is in a place which has got the authority which will carry it over the radio, into the newspapers and on television. I do not know if he has been watching how other people use their radio and television stations. I heard with consternation how some Ministers in some other countries in the world visited riot areas and then told of their experiences. Their saying these things at the wrong time and giving wider credence and publicity to it caused further disorders to take place. I would have thought that the simple and obvious axiom -not to give the lie more credence by repeating it -would have been the one decisive factor in not having raised this matter at all.

There are five members of the P.S.C. -three are Chinese, one is an Indian and one is a Malay. There are 80 per cent Chinese citizens, 7.6 per cent Malay citizens, and about 7.2 per cent Indian citizens. It is impossible to have the Public Service Commission enlarged to a number which will include proportional representation from each community. There will be the Eurasians, the Ceylonese, the Burmese, the Malays of Indonesian descent, the Malays of Malaysian descent, and so on. I would have thought that the surest way in which a matter such as this can be disposed of is by moral rectitude, that is, those people who work and get promoted in the public service get promoted on the basis of merit.

I have no time to reply to the other question about recognition of American degrees. It is a very wide and complicated subject and neither the Member for Choa Chu Kang nor I am all that familiar with American institutions. They are very numerous and very varied in the quality of the products to whom they give degrees.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $2,185,640 for Head 0104 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0105 -

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0105 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

Sir, in moving the amendment to the vote for subhead 1004, I also wish to move *amendments (2) and (3) , because they are all inter-related. With your permission, I shall do that together.

• Amendments (2) and (3) read as follows:

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0105 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1005.

(3)That the sum to be allocated for Head 0105 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1006.

The Chairman: Please move your first amendment alone, Mr Tang, but you may, in your comments, range over all three subheads.

Mr Tang See Chim: Yes, because my comments will be relevant to the other two subheads.

In last year's debate in Committee of Supply, I raised the question of State Counsel or Legal Officers being kept at one post for a considerable length of time, so much so that when they came up for promotion before the Legal Service Commission, they were asked what experience they had got. Of course, they had none because they were kept in that one post for a long time, a state of affairs to which they themselves did not agree. I was then assured by the Acting Minister for Law -it was the Minister for Health then replying on behalf of the Minister for Law and National Development -who said this state of affairs would be looked into and he assured the House that it would not be continued. With your permission, Sir, may I quote from Hansard - The Chairman: Mr Tang, in view of our time-table, quotation from Hansard is perhaps not necessary. I am sure the Minister would have read that particular passage in Hansard before he came here for discussion of your amendment to this subhead.

Mr Tang See Chim: Unfortunately, such a state of affairs appears to persist and I would like an explanation and an assurance from the Minister that it would be remedied.

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, the matters raised by the Member for Choa Chu Kang are wholly within the province, as it were, of the Legal Service Commission. This Commission is, by the provisions of the Constitution, independent of the Government. But there are six members of the Legal Service Commission.

3.15 p.m.

It consists of the Chief Justice as Chairman, a Judge, the Chairman of the Public Service Commission and two other members of the Public Service Commission, together with the Attorney-General. I can only speak on behalf of one member, and that is the Attorney-General. He assures me that law graduates fresh from the University who are appointed to the Bench straightaway are normally given an opportunity to broaden their field of experience long before their period of probation expires, so that by the time they come up for confirmation or entry into the legal service proper, they would, in the majority of cases, have held appointments in his Chambers as well as in the Courts.

The Chairman: Mr Barker, I am afraid you must shorten your remarks.

Mr Barker: But shortly, Sir, it is the Legal Service Commission which is responsible for the transfers, appointments as well as confirmation of all legal officers. These officers are not my men, and the members of the Commission will know the reasons why a certain officer is kept either in the Courts or in the Chambers or transferred from one Court to another. I am afraid I have no jurisdiction over the matter.

Mr Tang See Chim: I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $932,880 for Head 0105 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0107 -

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0107 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1010.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid the Minister for Law has anticipated part of my argument in his reply to my earlier amendment regarding newly qualified persons being appointed to the Bench. However, my reason against this is that this is not a very good practice, because a newly qualified person should do a stint in the A.G.'s Chambers first rather than being appointed to the Bench straightaway. Also a newly qualified person appointed to the Bench is likely to be transferred at one time or another to the Attorney-General's Chambers where his superior is someone who had appeared before him when he was on the Bench. This is an invidious position to place a newly qualified person as a magistrate and it is unfair to him. This could result in a perversion of the course of justice.

Mr P. Selvadurai (Bukit Panjang): Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may make a point quickly on the question of the appointment of magistrates to the Bench straight from the university. Quite often, many of our magistrates today are appointed to the Bench immediately after getting their degrees in the university here or after returning from the United Kingdom with their Bar qualifications. This is a matter which was dis. cussed at great length in this very House on 16th December, 1957, when the Prime Minister himself made the point that it is always difficult to have inexperienced magistrates listening to cases dealing with involved facts as well as involved laws. The position today seems to be similar to that which obtained in 1957 and we do not seem to have progressed.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I was really interested in what the Minister said about the Public Service Commission. I get the impression that the malaise really rests in the way in which the Public Service Commission itself is constituted. Section 6 (4) (f) of the Republic of Singapore Independence Act, 1965, reads:

'the powers of the Judicial and Legal Service Commission shall be exercised by a Legal Service Commission which shall consist of the following persons:-

(i) the Chief Justice, as President;

(ii) the Attorney-General;

(iii) the Chairman of the Public Service Commission;

(iv) a Judge of the High Court nominated generally or specially by the Chief Justice; and

(v) not more than two members of the Public Service Commission nominated generally or specially by the Chairman of the Public Service Commission;'.

You will notice, Mr Speaker, Sir, that the non-legal element in the constitution of the Public Service Commission is about half. I submit that this should not be so, because I do not think that people who are not legally trained and legally qualified or people who have not practised at the law will understand the special position faced by the Judicial Service or the Legal Service of the State of Singapore.

I would very much like the Minister to let us know whether this position could be rectified. If I had my way, I would like to have the Legal Service Commission composed of purely legal men without any non-legal element in it.

Mr Barker: On the first point of the appointment of magistrates straight from the university -to put it that way -I agree with both Members. There is much merit in what they say. I myself have had similar experience at the Bar when appearing before magistrates who had no experience on the Bench. My clients therefore suffered and we had to take the matter up to High Court. But I think both Members know -and I need not repeat at length what I have said just now -that these are matters for the Legal Service Commission which is certainly not under my control. The only person I can speak to is the Attorney-General. I will present the Members' views to him and ask him to present them to the Commission.

As for the composition of the Legal Service Commission, I also agree with the Member for Bukit Panjang that, as far as legal appointments are concerned, there should be more men on that Commission with legal experience than the position as it is today -three men from the Public Service Commission, the Chief Justice, a Judge and the Attorney-General. If there is a split in the votes, the Chief Justice will have a casting vote, but I am sure he will not be very happy if he has to cast his extra vote.

I assure the Member for Bukit Panjang that these are matters which will be considered seriously by the Government when the new Constitution is finally drafted. In fact, it has been drafted and will be circulated amongst the Ministers and Ministries for their comments, and this is a point that we will consider when the new Constitution is finally put before this House.

Mr Tang See Chim: I wish to withdraw the amendment, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Selvadurai: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0107 be reduced by $100. Mr Speaker, Sir, in the not very distant future, two of our Judges are about to retire and the time has come when the powers that be will have to look around to fill the vacancies.

A few minutes ago I did refer to the debate in this House on the 16th of December, 1957, when the Prime Minister himself talked at length about the problem of having to appoint Judges from among practitioners. I think it is inevitable that, as time goes on, we will not be able to escape the need to appoint most of our Judges more and more from amongst practitioners than from the Legal Service. This is as it should be, because most of the talent and expertise must come from among the practitioners themselves, and as Singapore is the commercial heart -I am sure that as time goes on, the intellectual heart too -of the whole of South-east Asia, it is incumbent that we have a Bench in Singapore that inspires the confidence of not only the people of Singapore but also the international commercial community. This means that we must have at least a very strong commercial Bench. If we accept the proposition that we must appoint our Judges progressively from among practitioners, then, of course, we come up against the rather sensitive question of emoluments and pension schemes that we will have to formulate for the purposes of paying them.

The Chairman: Mr Selvadurai, I am afraid you will have to shorten your remarks.

Mr Selvadurai: I will wind up, Mr Speaker, Sir. I wonder if the Minister will look into the question of increasing the Judges' salaries and see to it that the pension schemes themselves are so modified that the Judges appointed from among the practitioners do not lose out in relation to their colleagues who come from the Legal Service itself in so far as pension payments are concerned.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, everyone wants a rise in salary, but one increase leads to another. The Member says, Increase the Judges' salaries, because the practitioners outside get more money." I agree that because of our present scales of salary, it is very difficult for anyone at the Bar to give up his practice to become even the Chief Justice. The amount of income tax any leading lawyer pays exceeds the salary of any of the Judges. But if you up the Judges' salaries, how far do you go? A Minister gets $2,500 a month.

An hon. Member: Good enough!

The Deputy Prime Minister (Dr Toh Chin Chye): Underpaid!

Mr Barker: So perhaps the Ministers set the level above which no one can go very far. But when we tell the labourer in the street that we cannot increase his salary, certainly hon. Members will agree that we cannot increase our own.

As for the commercial court -the point raised by the Member for Bukit Panjang I will just say a few words, Sir. There already exist in the Rules of the Supreme Court special rules and regulations that have been devised solely to accommodate the commercial community in Singapore. Indeed a commercial court can be said to be already in existence. But, unfortunately, those practising at the Bar have not seen fit to invoke the use of these Rules which will in turn establish the commercial practice at the Bar. While it is conceded that there may be a need for a commercial court charged with the adjudication of commercial matters, it would appear, from the use made of the Commercial Code Rules or rather the lack of such use, that the time is not ripe for the appointment of Judges solely with the object of establishing a commercial court.

3.30 p.m.

The Chairman: Mr Barker, you have passed the guillotine time.

Mr Selvadurai: Sir, I am satisfied with the answer given by the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The sum of $2,373,620 for Head 0107 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0301 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

Sir, this is in conection with the Elections Office. For the past few elections which were carried out successfully and smoothly, I must praise the efficiency of the Elections Office. However, there is still room for improvement. I would like to suggest the following proposals for future reference by the Elections Office.

First, the boundary of each constituency should be delineated clearly, because there is some confusion over the present electoral divisions, i.e., a voter in Sembawang will have to vote in Nee Soon or in Bukit Panjang.

Second, the days for inspection of the electoral registers should be extended because the number of voters has increased.

Third, in some rural constituencies such as Sembawang, Nee Soon, Bukit Panjang, and Choa Chu Kang, the centres for inspection of the electoral registers should be increased for the convenience of the people.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, first, I would like to answer the second point raised by the Member for Sembawang -that the period of 12 days, which is now mandatory in the legislation, is considered adequate. I do not think it is necessary really to extend the period of inspection. As a matter of fact, the argument put forward by the Member for Sembawang that the period should be lengthened because there are more electors is inaccurate, simply because the increased electorate has been redistributed among more constituencies, with the result that we have opened more centres for the inspection of registers. And the period of two weeks -I am sorry I mentioned 12 days just now; I was wrong, it should be two weeks -is considered quite sufficient. If there are people who are genuinely interested in finding out whether or not their names are in the register, they should do so the moment the books are open for inspection, and not wait until the last two days or the closing day to rush to the centre to check the registers.

Secondly, as for the point raised by the Member for Sembawang that some electors in Sembawang find that they have to vote in Nee Soon or Bukit Panjang, that, of course, is an indictment against the elector himself. A man who has changed his address should immediately notify the nearest police station or the National Registration Centre, so that this change of address will be noted in the registers. Consequently the anomaly that a man who lives in one constituency has to vote in another constituency will not arise. However, I presume that many people who have changed their addresses during this period have not bothered at all to notify the police or the National Registration Centre, and therefore they have to face the inconvenience. Equally so, it may well be that persons living in new constituencies will find that they will have to go to some faraway centre to vote for the same reason. However, we shall try as best we can to erect more polling stations so that as few people as possible will be inconvenienced on this account.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, concerning the inspection of electoral registers over a period of two weeks, I find that of the many electors who live on the same road or street in my constituency, half of them will have to vote in Kampong Kembangan and the other half in Kampong Chai Chee. Further, of the other electors who have been living at the same address for so many years, some will have to vote in Kampong Chai Chee and the rest in Kampong Kembangan. And if these people wish to raise any objection, they have to fill up a form and pay a prescribed fee of $1 per person. Can the Deputy Prime Minister re-examine the electoral registers with a view to rectifying the errors, so that proper electoral registers can be drawn up without paying any fees?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: The first point, of course, is not uncommon at all. The Member for Kampong Kembangan refers to a situation where his constituency has been cut into two, with the result that it is inevitable that some electors who live on one side of the street will find themselves belonging to one constituency, and those living on the other side of the street will find themselves located in another new constituency. This is the case, too, for those people who live in Orchard Road. Half of the people who live on the left side of Orchard Road belong to the River Valley Constituency, and those who live on the right side of Orchard Road find themselves in the Cairnhill Constituency. The reason is that Orchard Road, like the road which the Member for Kampong Kembangan has mentioned just now, has been used as a boundary line for partitioning the area into separate constituencies. I am afraid this is a problem which cannot be avoided at all.

Secondly, as far as the waiving of fees is concerned, the idea of imposing a fee is to prevent people from wasting the time of the Election Officers over frivolous claims. A fee is imposed so that whoever is prepared to pay $1 will really lay a claim or make an objection to the Elections Office because he has got serious reasons to do so. However, I will consider waiving the fee in some cases, but at the moment I do not think that we can completely remove this regulation from the Ordinance.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, can the Deputy Prime Minister explain whether in a bona fide case of an elector who should not really vote in Kampong Chai Chee as he still lives at the same address, will the Deputy Prime Minister waive the payment of a fee?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: If the objection is found to be genuine, and that the error lies with the Elections Office, then I will instruct my officers to pass the matter up to me and, as I have indicated to the Member earlier, in such an instance we may consider waiving the fee.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Teong Eng Siong -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1102.

The Chairman: Mr Teong, I take it that you are not moving amendment No. (2) ?

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, I do not wish to move my amendment.

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3086.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): I am not moving, Sir.

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0301 be reduced by $100.

(In Mandarin): Sir, we all know that according to our Constitution there will be an election every five years. In other words, Members of Parliament who have been elected in the 1963 elections will be occupying these seats up to the 30th September, 1968. In a review of past elections which began not very long ago, the first general elections were conducted under a semi-colonial regime. Later on, the general elections were conducted under an internally self-governing Singapore, and the last elections were also conducted quite differently. And the general elections which will take place in 1968 will still be different in nature because Singapore has since become an independent Republic. So the people of Singapore are free. They have the right to elect their own representatives into this House. Therefore, in view of the changed circumstances and the different nature and importance of our coming general elections, I would like to raise a few points.

What I want to ask concerns the coming general elections. In view of its different meaning and nature, can certain citizens of Singapore who have become diplomats, or local citizens who have become High Commissioners, ambassadors or diplomatic personnel of foreign countries -in other words, they are now serving foreign countries -become candidates in the general elections in 1968?

The second question is the allocation of work pertaining to the election officers. According to our experience in the past, very often when it came to the time of election many unhappy incidents took place, especially in a constituency where many candidates competed. Some of the candidates would not abide by the regulations. They wanted to play foul. Some of them would canvass illegally or tease election officers so that the election officers could not look after their jobs as efficiently as they would like to. All these malpractices are not very good and when elections -

The Chairman: Order. There are two minutes left during which the hon. Member must complete her speech and for the Minister to reply.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: One minute more. (In Mandarin) So I hope the Deputy Prime Minister can enlighten us on how the future general election is going to be carried out.

Another point is about slogans and propaganda posters. These things are normally related to the different constituencies. I think the rule about the number of posters should be relaxed, because if only 20 posters are allowed in a very large constituency, they may not be sufficient.

I would also ask the Deputy Prime Minister when the next general elections will be held.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: In answer to question one -anyone who is a Singapore citizen and whose name is in the electoral register can vote in any election and can also stand as a candidate for the election. There is no law to stop him from doing so at all. For all those who are serving abroad, it may well be unfortunate indeed that there is no provision in the law by which they can vote by proxy or through the post. However, that is no handicap at all, because so long as such persons inform the Elections Office of the reasons for their absence from the State during the election, their names will be retained in the register.

In answer to question two -the Elections Ordinance, which has been amended recently, provides the police with powers to handle any disturbances which may occur during the elections, and I am quite sure that any foolish organisation or any foolish group of persons who believe that they can intimidate, threaten or interfere with the elections in 1968 will think twice before they do this, because any such attempts to create confusion during the elections will be properly dealt with, and we will have no hesitation to clobber all those who seek to create confusion during such an important event in the history of the Republic.

In answer to the third question about increasing the number of posters -this is a problem which arose some years ago when we discovered that during the elections it was a war of posters. Candidates' posters were plastered on top of other candidates' posters, and because of this, it was agreed by all the parties concerned that there should be a restriction in the number of posters that could be pasted up so as to avoid complaints and incidents over the profusion of posters as a result of which in some streets there was not enough wall space for late comers to put their posters up at all. Whether we can increase the number of posters for the rural areas so that the electorate will at least know who is standing for election or not is a point which we may well have to take into consideration when the time comes.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the Deputy Prime Minister's reply, may I beg leave to withdraw my amendment?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,008,750 for Head 0301 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0302 -

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0302 be reduced by $100.

Sir, Singapore is the fifth largest port in the world. As such, I think it is befitting its status that it should have its own registry. This was established some time ago. I would now like information from the Deputy Prime Minister on the tonnage that has been registered since its establishment; also, whether he is satisfied with the progress so far, and, if not, whether he thinks that this lack of progress is due to the very high standard that we require for a ship to be registered here, and whether he will consider lowering it. For example, take a leaf from the Panamanian Registry or the Liberian Registry so as to encourage the registering of ships here. This, I understand, would create very good employment opportunities for our unemployed here.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: The answer to the first question by the Member for Choa Chu Kang is that at present there is a total of 303 ships in the Singapore Registry totalling about 125,785 tons.

The answer to the second question is that I am not satisfied with the total tonnage or with the total number of ships.

The answer to the third question is that we are a signatory to the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, and it is necessary that whatever regulations we promulgate must be in accordance with our adherence to this International Convention. It is true that at the present moment the Merchant Shipping Ordinance prescribes regulations which follow the British Ordinance, and these regulations are of higher standards than those required by the International Convention. I have already in draft form a piece of legislation which I shall put before Parliament sometime next year whereby I hope to revise the Merchant Shipping Ordinance and make the regulations such that while we conform to the standards required by the International Convention, we do not at the same time ask for absurd standards which are too high for local requirements or for the requirements of ships deployed in this area, so that in this way we can encourage more foreign vessels to fly the Singapore flag.

I do not know whether it is wise to follow the Panamanian model for registering ships, but I would not like to make comparisons among the Liberian, the Panamanian, the Bermudan and any other flag of convenience. However, all I would say is that what we will do is typically Singaporean, and it is the intention of this legislation, of course, to assist ship owners to register under our flag. At the same time, what we gain out of it will not be in income tax or other forms of taxation. What I hope to achieve by changing our Merchant Shiping Ordinance is that by having more vessels registered under our flag we can create more opportunities for employment of Singapore seamen.

Mr Tang See Chim: I am satisfied, Mr Speaker, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,741,990 for Head 0302 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0304 -

Mr S. V. Lingam (Aljunied): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0304 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1051.

Sir, we have a multi-racial and multi-lingual society in Singapore and we are praised by foreigners for this unique quality. An example of this quality is seen in the signboards which are written in the main languages of our Republic. But, Sir, I note with regret that the signboards in certain places have spelling mistakes, or the letters are written wrongly in the vernacular languages. This mars our supreme quality of which we are really proud. Recently I came across such a mistake in the Airport, the place where most of the foreigners to our Republic step in first. Sir, I do not accuse anyone of doing this mistake deliberately. This may be an oversight or it may be due to the ignorance of the signboard writer. I would like to request the Minister to issue a directive to rectify such mistakes. Incidentally, I want to make use of this opportunity also to request the other departments of the Government to pay more attention not only to the translations of the names, instructions, etc., but also to the writing of them.

4.00 p.m.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Sir, if the Member for Aljunied will write to the Director of Civil Aviation or to me indicating which signboards in which parts of the Airport have mistakes in translation or spelling on them, I am quite sure the errors can be rectified very easily. I would only point out that, as far as the translation and spelling of signboards is concerned, there is a standard procedure by which the Director of Civil Aviation refers the matter to the Ministry of Culture, and it is the Ministry of Culture which gives the purported correct version of a translation or spelling of any name that we wish to write on a sign-board. I would say that the best thing that the Member can do is to let us know specifically which signboard is in error and in which part of the Airport it is located. We will rectify the mistake as soon as we can.

Mr Lingam: I assure the Deputy Prime Minister that I will do that. Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr R. A. Gonzales (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0304 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1187*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of MrP. Govindaswamy.

Since the formation of the Singapore Airport Auxiliary Police Force, it is noted that the salary scales for constables are very much lower than their counterparts in the Port of Singapore Authority or even in the regular police. The police at the Airport perform more or less the same duties as those in the Port of Singapore Authority and the regular police. They were, however, left out when salary increases were granted to other units of the Police Force in Singapore during Malaysia. Apart from not having been considered when a general pay revision was made, they were not granted any quarters nor any privileges that other units in the Police Force are getting. If this is allowed to carry on, I feel it will not be good for the morale of the members of this force.

Sir, can the Deputy Prime Minister inform this House whether any consideration is being given to bring the salaries and conditions of service of the Airport Police in line with those of the regular police?

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand that with the expansion of our tourist trade and other commercial activities, more and more aeroplanes are making use of our Airport. With this increase in traffic both in terms of passengers and goods, one would expect an increase in the number of constables in the Airport. Instead. I notice there has been a reduction of 16 constables, while the number of lance corporals and corporals is to be increased by 12 and 4 respectively. While I am not objecting to the promotion of deserving officers, I do not understand why the number of constables should be reduced especially in the face of increasing traffic. May I be informed of the reason for this reduction, please?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Mr Speaker, Sir, the answer to the question by the Member for Serangoon Gardens is that when Singapore was part of Malaysia, the claim by the Airport Police Force for a revision of their salaries so that they would be considered as part of the regular Police Force was put in, but unfortunately the claim was turned down. In fact, the Airport Police Force is distinct from the regular Police Force. It has been formed under a different Ordinance which permits the Airport Police Force to perform solely as an auxiliary police force. However, their claim for revision of salaries has been laid before the Salaries Commission and until the Report of the Salaries Commission has been published by the Minister for Finance, I cannot say anything more on it.

As to the point raised by the Member for Anson, the answer is that the in-crease of traffic at Paya Lebar and requirements for car parks have got nothing to do with the police at all. The police look after the internal security of the Airport, and car parks are looked after by car park attendants and not by the police force. So if four persons have been promoted to corporals and lance corporals. I think it is a matter for congratulation. I really see no reason why because we have promoted four persons, therefore, we should replace them with four constables. The same number of bodies is required and certainly we do not want to follow Parkinson's law that, if you create one top post, you have got to create several other minor post3 in the process. However, for the information of the Member for Anson, I would say that this is part of an economy exercise by the Ministry of Finance. They have been very stringent for 1968. As Members are aware, the Budget is virtually a standstill Budget, and the reason why it Is so is that we have clamped down on all new appointments. I myself would be very happy indeed to ease the load from some of my officers as far as I can, but, unfortunately, this is the general policy and I do not think we can increase the number of police constables at the Airport.

Mr Gonzales: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.05 p.m.

The time allotted for Head 0304 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the name of Mr S. V. Lingam, was not proceeded with.

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0304 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2051.

The sum of $6,077,270 for Head 0304 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0308 -

Mr Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0308 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1009.

Sir, if you have no objections, I would like to speak on my amendment No. (2)* also.

• Amendment No. (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0308 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1032.

The Chairman: Yes, you may.

Mr Govindaswamy: Sir, I notice that in the Telecommunications Department, one accountant was considered sufficient all these years. Why are three accountants needed now? I shall be pleased if the Deputy Prime Minister can enlighten me on this.

Regarding telegraph messengers, Sir, I am surprised to note that, despite the increase in the number of houses, flats, shops and factories, no provision has been made to increase the number of telegraph messengers. May I know the reason for this, please?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: For the enlightenment of the Member for Anson, I will just inform him that there has really been no increase in the number of accountants in the Telecommunications Department. What has happened is that we have taken over Cable and Wireless Limited which was responsible for external telecommunications in the past, and in the process we have taken over members of the staff as well. The three Accountants who are budgetted for in the Estimates are these: one is held against a post which is now shown in subhead 1009; the second one is held against the post of Assistant Controller, subhead 1010; and the third accountant comes over from Cable and Wireless.

I would add, for the information of the House, that the essence of the Telecommunications Department is to earn revenue, and I have given directives that the Department should be spruced up so that it operates as a business concern. As the most important part of any business concern is the accounting side, we have authorised that three accountants be appointed in the Telecommunications Department. These accountants have more work to perform since we have got international as well as local accounting to look into.

Secondly, on the question of telegraph messengers, there has been some misunderstanding partly because the number of telegraph messengers whom we have taken over from the former Cable and Wireless is not indicated in the Budget. But if the Member for Anson looks under subhead 3009, Telecommunications Department (External), he will find a block vote of $4,256,280. This sum of money is provided for payment of emoluments to all those now in Cable and Wireless. At the moment, we are negotiating with Cable and Wireless Union on transfer of the staff to Government salary scales, and negotiations have not been completed for posts relating to Division II and officers below this Division. The telegraph messenger boys' emoluments in Cable and Wireless are included in this block vote. So there has really been no reduction at all in the total number of telegraph messengers. Incidentally, there are 63 telegraph messengers in Cable and Wireless and this, together with the 55 budgetted for under the Telecommunications Head, brings the total to 121. So with that number of telegraph messenger boys, I think we can pool our resources and make the service as efficient as in the past without increasing the number of bodies.

The Chairman: I take it that the Member is withdrawing his amendment?

Mr Govindaswamy: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0308 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1036. Sir, here I wish to get your consent to move my amendment No. (4)* on subhead 2021 as well.

• Amendment No. (4) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0308 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2021.

The Chairman: There is no need to move it, Mr Lingam, but you may range over that topic.

Mr Lingam: Yes. Sir, I am only seeking clarification on the two sub-heads. I want to know what these payments are, to whom they are paid, and why the wayleave payments are increased threefold?

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Wayleave ac-counting is a form of accounting which has been worked out amongst Commonwealth countries who subscribe to a common telecommunications system. It is a very complicated form of accounting which I myself, not being an accountant, do not fully understand. But roughly it means this. If you want to send a message, let us say, to Copenhagen or Moscow, you can send it via Seacom cable across to Australia, then across the Pacific to Canada, across the Atlantic to London, who in turn will transmit the message either by radio or some other cable to Moscow or Copenhagen or whichever place you want to despatch your message. Things being centralised more or less in London in this Commonwealth network, it stands to reason that whatever revenue we collect in Singapore, part of it has got to be paid to somebody else for helping you to transmit your message. This is the essence of the wayleave accounting system. It means that all expenditure incurred by partners of the Commonwealth cable system or telecommunications system pool their expenditure together; this expenditure being the amount of money you spend on transmitting other people's messages, or expenditure incurred in maintaining sections of the cable or sections of the telecommunications system for which you are responsible.

4.15 p.m.

Then towards the end of the financial year, the revenues collected by Commonwealth countries are totalled up and each Commonwealth member country is then asked to pay up what it owes to other members in proportion to the amount of revenue that it collects in its own country. This roughly is the essence of the wayleave scheme.

The reason why the wayleave payment has been increased is again explained by our take-over of external telecommunications from the former Cable and Wireless Company. The wayleave payments which were previously made by Cable and Wireless Company are now included in the payments made by the Telecommunications Department. That explains why there has been an increase. F o r m e r I y, the Telecommunications Department paid about $2.2 million. Cable and Wireless Company paid about $1.1 million. So the total sum adds up to $3.3 million.

As for the second point, the interim allowance refers to an allowance that is being paid to clerks of the Telecommunications Department under an award made by the Industrial Arbitration Court in 1965. The allowance amounts to about $15 per month to each clerk. The clerks of the Telecommunications Department had asked for an upward revision of their salaries, but this had not been agreed to by the Treasury. It was referred to the Arbitration Court, and when no final settlement was forthcoming either from the Treasury or from the Salaries Commission, the Arbitration Court made a judgment so that an interim payment of this sum would be made to these clerks. So this is, in fact, an allowance payable to a clerk if the date of confirmation of his appointment is later than January 1965. This explains why this sum is now being included in the Budget.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $14,126,510 for Head 0308 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0307 -

Mr Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to take my six amendments together.

The Chairman: Will you move the first amendment, Mr Govindaswamy?

Mr Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001. I will also range over *amendments (2) , (3) , (4) , (5) and (6).

• The amendments read as follows:

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1002.

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1012.

(5) (standing also in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong): That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1023.

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1024.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to bring to the notice of the House the fact that the Postal Department has been working quite efficiently in past years. In the 1965 Budget sittings, I pointed out that the postal quarters at Radin Mas, Tanglin, Wilkinson Road, Geylang and Choon Guan Street old postal-drivers garage quarters were in pretty bad condition and I urged that they be improved. The Minister of State promised to look into the matter, but I regret to say, Sir, that nothing has been done. I am now compelled to ask him the same question and I hope that some action will be taken to improve these postmen's quarters.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would also like to draw the attention of this House to the difficult working conditions of postmen. In my opinion, and speaking from experience, I think that the duties of postmen are among the toughest in the whole civil service. I am sure that the public are also aware of this. Outwardly, they seem to be merrily delivering letters, parcels and registered articles, but it must be appreciated that their duties are not that simple. They are required to discharge them within a stipulated time. They have to cycle under the hot sun or in heavy rain and sometimes with their heavy loads up hilly slopes, which is most strenuous and exhausting, and they are penalised for any loss of letters or articles. Above all, they have to rush through their daily deliveries within a very short time. They also have to climb many storeys in our modern multi-storeyed flats. Under these trying conditions of work, it is not unreasonable to ask that they be provided with decent quarters so that they may have a proper night's rest in order that they can be fit to undertake another day's heavy work.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I notice in the Estimates that a number of higher grade posts in the Postal Department has been increased. I also notice from the Budget Statement of the Finance Minister of the 5th of December that there has been a substantial increase in the number of houses and factories, but that there is to be no increase in the number of postmen for 1968. In fact, the Minister stated that the number of new buildings commenced this year showed no less than a 66 per cent increase over that of last year and that private construction was, particularly active, showing a 94.5 per cent increase. Yet I am surprised to note that there is no provision for an increase of even one postman but that there is an increase in the number of higher grade posts. For example, the number of senior officers has been raised from 8 to 13 since 1963, but there has been no increase in the number of clerical staff. We have now a Postmaster-General, a Deputy Postmaster-General, two Controllers of Posts, 13 Assistant Controllers of Posts, an i three Chief Superintendents. This increase in the number of higher grade posts is hardly explainable. I do not know what work they are doing, but I certainly cannot imagine how increased deliveries due to the increase in population, houses, flats and factories, can be met by increasing the number of senior officers. I have, however, no objection to the creation of the post of Deputy Postmaster-General, but I cannot see the need for two Controllers of Posts. Will the Minister consider reducing the number to one Controller of Posts and three Assistant Controllers of Posts? The savings in salaries of these four posts will be sufficient to pay for 30 postmen, which will mean that 30 families will be looked after.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope the Minister will appreciate that postmen are working under heavy pressure. When one postman goes on leave, his delivery beat is shared by other postmen who are already overloaded. But overtime is paid often not in fair proportion to the overtime work performed. In short, this is because of the shortage of postmen. To cite an example, on 14th November this year, one assistant postman died shortly after he arrived for duty at the General Post Office. The pressure of work was certainly one of the causes that contributed to his death. The office is not well-ventilated and is congested by the accumulation of mail bags and parcels. Indeed, one wonders how many of them have T.B.-God knows!

Mr Speaker, Sir, I respectfully request that the Minister take effective steps to improve the working conditions of postmen by providing better quarters for them and by increasing their number rather than by increasing the number of senior officers.

The Minister of State for the Prime Minister's Department (Tuan Haji Yaacob bin Mohamed): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir,I fully sympathise with the Member for Anson who spoke on the hardships experienced by postmen who earn small wages. As he has moved amendment (1) and ranged over amendments (2) , (3) , (4) , (5) and (6) , I will reply to them one by one.

As regards postmen's quarters, last year -I have been the Minister of State since 1965 - I promised that I would look into the matter when it was raised in Parliament.

I would like to explain that in 1963 at a meeting of the Postal Services Joint Committee, the Staff Side requested that the department take up with the Government the desirability of repairs and alterations to the postmen's quarters at Lorong 27-A, Geylang, Kampong Bahru, Tanglin Post Office and Wilkinson Road. The Staff Side also requested that the single-room quarters occupied by postmen at Choon Guan Street should he altered to provide two rooms for each occupant. The matter was taken up with the Public Works Department and limited repairs and renovations were undertaken in due course.

4.30 p.m.

However, the Public Works Department reported that in respect of alterations to provide more living space, the Development Planning Sub-Committee had not approved any structural alterations as the quarters were very old buildings.

It is pertinent to point out to the Member for Anson that postmen are not entitled to quarters under their scheme of service, and therefore Government should not spend public funds to enlarge existing old quarters. However, postmen, as members of the public, are eligible for public housing, and it is understood that there will be no difficulty in obtaining Housing Board flats if applicants are not selective. This will provide better housing facilities for the postmen concerned.

Concerning the Deputy Postmaster-General, subhead 1002, because of the recent take-over of Singapore functions from Postal Headquarters, Kuala Lumpur, including the Singapore section of the Post Office Savings Bank which operated at Petaling Jaya, the range of duties and responsibilities discharged by the Postmaster-General, Singapore, has increased, in order to avert the administrative burden at the Postmaster-General level, it is necessary to create the post of Deputy Postmaster-General.

On subhead 1004, in 1966 the posts of Assistant Controller of Posts were increased from 9 to 13. The four new posts are for the following new branches to be taken over from Postal Headquarters, Kuala Lumpur: -(a) Post Office Savings Bank, (b) Finance and Checking Branch, (c) Statistics and International Branch, and (d) Money Order, Stamps, and Services Branch.

Regarding subhead 1012, Postal Clerks, Timescale, it was proposed to increase the 1968 establishment of postal clerks by 69, i.e., making a total of 508. The reasons for the increase are as follows: (1) nine postal clerks to meet the normal growth of work; and (2) 60 postal clerks, currently employed as temporary clerks, to man the four new branches, namely, the Post Office Savings Bank, the Finance and Checking Branch, the Statistics and international Branch, and the Money Order, Stamps and Services Branch, which branches are to be transferred to the permanent establishment. In respect of the increase of nine postal clerks, it is regretted that the Permanent Secretary (Finance) did not support the proposal. In respect of the 60 postal clerks, the Permanent Secretary (Finance) has instead provided a block vote of $320,000 under O.C.S.E., appearing in page 109 of the Estimates under subhead 3005, Expenses relating to Postal Headquarters Branches and Post Office Savings Bank, Singapore. This vote is to meet payment of emoluments and C.P.F, contributions of the staff of the four new branches, pending a review of the staffing position of the Department.

Regarding subhead 1023, Postmen. Timescale, it was proposed to increase the establishment in the 1968 Estimates by 15 postmen, making a total of 462, to cope with the growth of delivery work as mentioned by the Member for Anson a little while ago. Unfortunately, the proposals submitted to the Ministry of Finance were not supported by the Permanent Secretary (Finance).

Regarding subhead 1024, the current establishment of assistant postmen is 106. It was proposed to increase the establishment by one, making a total of 107. Unfortunately, too, the Ministry of Finance did not support this proposal either. However, I sympathise with the hon. Member for Anson.

Mr Govindaswamy: Regarding the Choon Guan Street Postal Garage quarters, I understand from the Minister of State that there are two rooms each in every quarters. That is incorrect, because there are 22 quarters; four with two rooms each, and the rest -18 quarters -have one room each.

The Minister of State has also mentioned just now the increase in the number of postmen and others, and his reason is that the Ministry of Finance has been cutting down the expenditure. What is the meaning of cutting and further cutting the vote? The Minister of State must tell the Finance Ministry that this Department needs the increase, because the postmen are at present suffering. He must explain to the Minister for Finance the reasons for increasing the number of posts. Just ask any Assistant Controller of Posts or anybody to deliver letters in the Alexandra area for one day. Just let them try, and they will see how difficult is the postman's job. And if you do not want to increase the number of posts, you are pressuring them. It is like hell. They want to run away from the Postal Department. That would be very unfair to the Postal Department.

I now ask the Minister to go and press this matter again and get the increase. But since the Minister for State has already replied, and although I am not satisfied, I have to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1002.

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1012.

The Chairman: Amendments (2) , (3) and (4) , standing in Mr Govindaswamy's name, are not being moved. Amendment (5)*, Madam Chan. I very much regret that I must, even before you begin, inform you, Madam Chan, that you have precisely two minutes.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving.

• Amendment (5), standing in the names of Mr P. Govindaswamy and Madam Chan Choy Siong, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1023.

The Chairman: Thank you. Amendment (6)+ is not being moved. Amendment (7) , Mr Lim Guan Hoo.

• Amendment (6), standing in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1024.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo (Bukit Merah): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (5) of subhead 3002.

Mr Speaker, this item that I wish to discuss concerns posting boxes and installation expenses in housing estates. The sum allocated for next year is only $150. From this meagre figure, it appears that the authorities concerned are not interested in setting up more posting boxes in densely populated areas.

Many housing estates are coming up in Singapore. Because of poor planning in the old days when no provision was made for these posting boxes, there are now inadequate facilities for posting. This is similar to the lack of planning of hawker pitches. As a result of such poor planning, we often receive many complaints to the effect that it is extremely difficult to post a letter because of the inadequate number of posting boxes in housing estates.

Mr Speaker, we all know that in some countries some people have to travel a long way by train to send a letter. But if we want Singapore to progress, we must not compare ourselves with these countries, This is a poor comparison. We must not look backward. So in so far as housing estates are concerned, we can see from the many complaints coming from the residents -

4.42 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. It is guillotine time,

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: I will shorten my speech.

The Chairman: We have in fact gone past the time fixed. I am afraid you will have to go without an answer from the Minister, Mr Lim.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: Just two more sentences, Sir.

The Chairman: All right, Mr Lim.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: (In Mandarin): ir, if the Postal Authorities have not thought of any improvement in this respect, then the residents in housing estates will one day be forced to breathe their own dust in order to carry their messages out.

The Chairman: I have no time to call upon the Minister to reply. Mr Lim, are you prepared to withdraw?

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: (In Mandarin): Since there is no reply from the Minister, whether or not I am satisfied with it, I have to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,

The time allotted for Head 0307 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the names of Mr Tay Boon Too and Mr Teong Eng Siong, was not proceeded with:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0307 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $16,101,610 for Head 0307 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: Before we go on to the next Head, it may be appropriate if I, at this juncture, just make a reference to time. I have based guillotine times on the times requested by Members, and I have tried to be as fair as possible. To accommodate all hon. Members, it has been necessary to cut down to 40 per cent the time each Member has requested.

The guillotine times as to when discussion of any head shall end have been circulated to Members three or four days ago. If Members continue to speak without an eye on the clock, they are merely depriving other Members of their opportunity to speak. While I am not affected, I have to enforce the rules. This will be to the disadvantage of Members who have amendments in their names but are lower down the list in the notice of amendments, 1, therefore, ask Members to keep an eye on the clock as they speak. From the list of times, Members will know how many more Members want to speak on a Head, For the next Head, Registry of Vehicles, discussion must terminate at 5 o'clock. There are five Members who want to speak, and the Minister must reply. Members must adjust their speeches to fit in to the available time, if no Member is to be cut out completely.

Head 0309 -

The following amendments stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0309 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1011.

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0309 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1012.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I am not moving either amendment, Sir

4.45 p.m.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0309 he reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3007.

Sir, I see from the Estimates that a token sum of $10 was approved in 1967 for the item "Mechanization of licensing and collection procedures". But there is no vote to be found for 1968. Has the idea of this system been shelved? If so, why?

Tuan Haji Yaacob: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, this department had, in fact, proposed that there should be a computer for the mechanization of licensing and collection procedures, but it was not considered necessary to have this provision next year because this job is being taken care of by the Ministry of Finance.

Mr Lingam: I withdraw the amendment, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0309 be reduced by $100*.

• The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr. Ho See Beng and Mr. Teong Eng Siong.

Mr Speaker, Sir, Gazette No. 5 183 dated 29th August, 1962, does not permit vehicles of over five tons to make use of Jalan Ubi from Jalan Mempelam and Changi Road, but not in the case of Jalan Ubi from Airport Road to Changi Road -i.e., Jalan Betek between Jalan Taugeh and Jalan Ubi. The length of Jalan Betek is from Jalan Sayur to Jalan Ubi. The limitation, therefore, is half. Why is the other half of the road from Jalan Mempelam to Airport Road not gazetted? Likewise Jalan Betek between Jalan Sayur and Jalan Taugeh. Why does the Prime Minister's Department restrict half the portion of the road only? I would also like the Prime Minister's Department to restrict the use of all the roads to light vehicles only.

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): I am not moving. Mr Speaker. Sir.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, we all know that the Registry of Vehicles is a very busy department. This is because Singapore is a prosperous city. Business flourishes, the population is increasing, and the car-owning class is expanding from year to year. For example, in the case of private cars, in 1962, according to statistics, there were only 77,379 cars; but five years later, that is, today, we have 115,283 cars. That means in five years' time there has been an increase of 40,000 cars. The same increase is also seen in motor-cycles. There has also been some improvement in the efficiency and administration of the R.O.V, to cope with the increase of work. But undoubtedly there are some defects in this department. As a result, I have received complaints from members of the public and I wish to take this opportunity to convey these complaints to the Minister to enable him to take immediate steps to improve the situation.

Firstly, some members of the staff in the R.O.V. -I stress some only -are very bad in their dealing with the public. They are rather bureaucratic in their attitude and they do not receive the public well, They are not very courteous. This should not be so.

Secondly, I think the department should constantly review its administrative machinery to maintain a high standard of efficiency. I have received complaints from members of the public that they have to wait for as long as half an hour or even one hour to pay their road tax. That is a waste of time and a great inconvenience to the public.

Thirdly, I have to appeal on behalf of the taxi drivers. I have received complaints from some of them that they are reported to have committed traffic offences and were fined heavily as a result of the lack of taxi stands in certain places. I think the Government derives thousands of dollars every year by way of taxi licence fees. So I suggest the R.O.V, should build enough taxi stands to enable the taxi drivers to operate their business properly, because they have paid their road tax and they have a right to earn a living.

Tuan Haji Yaacob: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, to reply to the Member for Kampong Kembangan. As a result of the Prime Minister's visit to the Geylang Serai Constituency, an appeal was sent to him to impose restriction on heavy vehicles using the roads in question. A decision had to be made whether the roads should be made up or restrictions imposed on vehicles. As a result of careful investigations by the traffic police, the Director of P.W.D, and the Director of the Trade Division, it was decided to impose restrictions on heavy vehicles, especially those carrying logs, using Jalan Ubi. This involved 32 roads in addition to Jalan Ubi and the other roads mentioned. Perhaps the road signs there are insufficient. I will ask the traffic police to increase the number of warning notices regarding the restriction on the use of the roads by heavy vehicles.

With regard to the matter raised by the Member for Sembawang, I shall be grateful if complaints about the discourteous behaviour of some of the staff can be addressed direct to the Registrar of Vehicles or to me. We will certainly take appropriate measures.

Regarding the long wait to pay road tax, we cannot put the blame on the R.O.V. We have launched a campaign over the radio and on television advising licence holders to pay their road tax by post, and thus do away with the necessity of having to wait long if they pay at the R.O.V, counters. But, unfortunately, our campaign has gone unheeded by certain quarters. Hence they have to wait for a considerable time. I hope the Member for Sembawang will participate in this campaign and urge members of the public to pay their road tax by post and in that way reduce the congestion at the R.O.V.

Regarding taxi stands, actually this subject is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of National Development. It is therefore proper for the Minister in charge of that Ministry to reply.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank the Minister of State who has considered the appeal by the residents there. But what I am surprised is that whilst Gazette S 138 restricts the use of Jalan Ubi between Jalan Mempelam and Changi Road which are not passable to heavy vehicles, there is no restriction to the use of the other half from Jalan Mempelam to Airport Road. The Gazette only states Jalan Ubi between Jalan Mempelam and Changi Road. Likewise Jalan Betek between Jalan Taugeh and Jalan Ubi. The length of Jalan Betek stretches from Jalan Taugeh to Jalan Sayur, which means that the other half can be used. The other road names are not included in the Gazette. It is not because of the lack of road names but because they are not gazetted. As I have said just now, Jalan Ubi between Jalan Mempelam and Airport Road, Jalan Betek between Jalan Taugeh and Jalan Sayur, Jalan Ladang, Jalan Siput, Jalan Ang Teng are not included in the Gazette. I hope the Minister of State will look into the matter and impose similar restrictions on the roads to which I have referred.

Tuan Haji Yaacob: (In Malay): I have explained that, as a result of the visit of the Prime Minister to that constituency, a memorandum was sent. However, if there are new suggestions, I will put them up to the authorities for consideration. This department is under the Prime Minister's Office. The administration of this matter comes under the Ministry of Defence and the traffic police, and it is also connected with the Ministry of National Development, which is the Public Works Department.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): if that is the assurance of the Minister of State, then I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,175,760 for Head 0309 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0401 -

The following amendments stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong-

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1151.

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1152.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving both my amendments.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to he allocated for Head 0401 he reduced by $l0 in respect of subhead 1251.

Sir, this item concerns the National Service Office, under the subhead "Executive Officer". National service is supported by all the citizens of Singapore. It is for the security of our country. Therefore, the people have reacted favourably to registration for national service, However, some of the national service personnel have been called for full-time training. Some of them received a high salary in the past, and now that they have been called for full-time service, they get only $60 allowance per month, There is a great gap between what they received before and what they get now. They feel that they have suffered some losses. They are, therefore, not able to maintain their families. I hope the Minister will consider increasing the allowances of those people who formerly had work to do and not pay them just $60 allowance only.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, it was decided on the 6th of this month that those civil servants who have been called up to do full-time national service would be paid the difference between the salary that they are getting as national servicemen and the salary which they should get as civil servants. Therefore, the problem does not now arise.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock: Sir, I would like to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

5.00 p.m.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir,I beg to move,

That the sum to he allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1281.

The point I wish to raise here is of a technical nature. I understand that the Registrar of Societies has no powers to query the accounts of a registered society. It seems that the accounts of a society is a matter to be settled among the members of the society concerned. Sir, in reply to my Motion on the adjournment on "Undesirable activities of certain foreign-orientated organisations in Singapore", the Minister of Defence said -and I am quoting Hansard Volume 26, No, 3 dated 8th September, 1967, col. 242, third paragraph:

'With regard to the other point that the hon. Member has raised, the alleged misuse of funds will have to be left to the members of the organisation themselves, .'.

This being so, if a group in a society is able to get the support of the majority of the members, then that group may be able to do anything with the funds of the society. If such a thing happens, I think it would be of no use for the members in the minority to take up the matter with the relevant authorities. Can the Minister look into this matter with a view to amending the Societies Act, and giving powers to the Registrar to look into the accounts of a society at least when he receives a complaint from a member of that society?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the hon. Member for Aljunied has misunderstood completely the powers of the Registrar of Societies and also misunderstood the passage which he has quoted. There are provisions in the Societies Act for the purpose of allowing the Registrar of Societies to look into the accounts of registered societies. Vide section 19 (1) of the Societies Act, a member of the society can file a complaint in a District or Magistrate's Court when an officer or member of that society has unlawfully withheld any money of the society or wilfully applied such money for purposes other than those expressed or directed in the rules of the society. Therefore, there is enough provision under the Societies Act for the Registrar of Societies to see that the money of the society is legally used.

In the passage which he has quoted from Hansard, I did use the words "alleged misuse". It is a matter of opinion of members of the society whether the money of the society is being misused or not. There is always a difference of opinion, and if the majority of the members voted for the use of the money in a certain way, then the Registrar of Societies would rather not interfere in an internal squabble if the money is used legally and within the confines of the objectives of the society.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: May I just draw the attention of hon. Members to the fact that I propose to proceed without a suspension so as to make more time available. Mr Chow, amendment No. (5) *

• The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr. S. V. Lingam and Mr. Tang See Chim.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy, amendment No. (5) .

Mr Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301*.

• The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr. S. V. Lingam and Mr. Tang See Chim.

Sir, nowadays robbery in public places is a common occurrence. Hooligans snatch gold chains and other jewellery from helpless women and get away on motor-cycles and bicycles. Markets, streets and public parks are usually the scenes of such crimes. Will the Minister of Defence consider strengthening the police force so as to keep such disgraceful crimes to a minimum?

Mr Lingam: Sir, in the past, just as at present, we have heard many hon. Members speaking on our police force. But most of the speakers have always attacked them. But my views are different. One may say that a police officer is a government servant and so he is expected to serve the public, like any other civil servant. I do not deny that, but I am of the opinion that a policeman runs more risk than any other civil servant for the pay he receives. A policeman on patrol duty may enjoy a ride in a Holden car or may be walking through the slums in the early hours of the morning. But whether they travel in vehicles or go by foot, they are subject to risks of stone throwing and attacks from gangsters and anti-national elements. It is here that they risk their lives. Sir, we in Singapore have faced many difficult periods during which the police had worked round the clock, sacrificing their off days and vacation leave. They even had no time to look after their families. In many cases, they have prevented crimes and illegal activities instead of waiting for such things to happen and then stopping them. Their motto is that prevention is better than cure. When there were disturbances in some countries in this part of the world due to the devaluation of Sterling which resulted in the devaluation of the old Malayan currency, there were rumours that the anti-national elements would make use of this opportunity to create unrest here. But I think due to the precautionary measures taken by the police, nothing happened here.

Before criticising the police, we should understand the difficult conditions under which they work. One of their many problems is to get co-operation from the public. During the colonial days, the police were treated with either contempt or fear. But after we took over the government in 1959, both the public and the police have realised that they are friends. This has resulted in the public coming forward to give information to the police and thus giving them their co-operation. So when we praise the police today, the civic-minded public also have a share in it. Of course, Sir, some of our hon. Members may have genuine grouses against the police. But, as I have said earlier, if we think of the difficult conditions under which they work, I am sure we will learn to appreciate them instead of condemning them. We should offer suggestions to help improve their lot.

Finally, Sir, I have a remark to make under this Head. I see on page 122 of the Estimates and at the top of page 123, two headings, namely, "Gurkha Contingent" and "Malay, Indian and Chinese Contingent". I think these are left-overs of the colonial rule. Here I can see some reason for a separate Gurkha Contingent. But there is no justification for a Malay, Indian and Chinese Contingent. When we say "police" they are Singaporeans. At this time when we are talking about abolishing associations under clan names, the Government as an example, should abolish such headings. Sir, can the Minister please consider this?

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, I think it is still a practice in the police for certain officers to have the services of some sort of a footman in the form of a constable. I think this is a left-over of the colonial system. In fact, wrong use is made of a constable, on whom we have spent a considerable amount of money training him to be a constable, by making him a footman. Will the Minister consider discontinuing this practice and assure the House that he will do so?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am really glad that at least one Member of the House has noticed the improvement in the police/public relationship, the result of a very prolonged campaign carried out not only by Members of Parliament but by leaders of this Government to promote better police/public relationship. Also, he has noticed the good response from members of the public.

To reply to the Member for Anson, I think I must dispel the false belief that crime is increasing. Statistics compiled by my Department of seizable offences have shown that they have riot increased, and although we are pretty near the end of the year when the New Year is about to be on us -it is usual at this season to expect an increase in crime -the figure for November shows that it has dropped. The number of what is known as seizable offences has dropped from an average of 1,250 per month to 1,143, and this is largely due to the police taking preventive measures.

5.15 p.m.

The battle against crime can be waged more successfully if the public are alert to their responsibilities and adopt a certain standard of public behaviour. I can assure the Member for Anson that it is always in the minds of officers and men of the police force to keep the crime rate down to the minimum. It does not necessarily mean that, by having more officers and men, the crime rate can be kept down. In this respect, I think the attitude of the public is the most important factor and if they respond, and continue to respond as they are doing now, by giving more information and co-operation to the police, I am sure we will be able to keep down the crime rate.

It is unfortunate that under the Budget heads we have names which connote racial and communal origins. The Member for Aljunied is quite correct in saying that this is a legacy from colonial times. Actually what the "Malay, Indian and Chinese Contingent" connotes is that it is a different contingent from what was known as the Sikh Contingent before the war. The Sikh Contingent was disbanded and in its place we have the Gurkha Contingent. A better name, of course, would be "Contingent other than the Gurkha Contingent".

Anyway, I would like to thank the Member for Aljunied for his suggestion and I will see to it that next year another name will be substituted.

As for the Member for Choa Chu Kang, I would like to inform him that it is not "footman" but "batman".

The Chairman: It is not "Batman" of T.V.!

Mr Lim Kim San: No, not "Bat-man". This again is a condition and term of service of the police department and the Salaries Commission has put up its Report. So I cannot promise the Member that I will deprive police officers of this condition of service unless and until I have thoroughly gone into it. There must be a very good reason why a batman is attached to a gazetted officer, because he does relieve the latter from doing certain things which will otherwise prevent him from carrying out his work more efficiently. It is not always an easy thing for us to change the conditions and terms of service, especially when it means a loss of certain privileges to the officer concerned, and I would prefer not to make any promise. I will look into the whole question thoroughly before we make any move in that direction.

Mr Govindaswamy: I beg leave to withdraw, Sir,

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2009*.

• The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr. S. V. Lingam and Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi.

[Mr Tang See Chim in the Chair]

5.19 p.m.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Sir, may I seek information from the Minister as to the number of posts in the Vigilante Corps in the Republic, the present strength of Vigilante Corps members in these posts, and how many national servicemen are now undergoing training for part-time services?

Sir, may I also enquire how the Minister intends to make good use of the sum of $1,300,000 provided in the 1968 Estimates for this vote?

Mr Lingam: Sir, our Vigilante Corps is now established with statutory provisions and the members are now treated more or less like regular police personnel in many respects. This is to be appreciated, Sir, but we should not forget that they are all volunteers except for those members who are required to do national service. When we consider the powers given to them, I think the facilities given to them are not enough if we are to be proud of their services. We should also see that they are sufficiently compensated though they are not benefited financially. For example, let us take medical facilities. The Minister, in winding up the debate on the Vigilante Corps Bill, stated that arrangements could be made to get free medical services for members of the Vigilante Corps from private doctors, I do not know how far this has materialised. If not, I do not think it will be a burden on the Government to give free medical attention to them at Government hospitals and clinics.

My second point is that members of the Vigilante Corps do not have sufficient uniforms. Again, I wish to stress that they are volunteers. They are civic-minded and they want to serve their country during their spare time, So we should not tax them. Connected with uniforms is the question of laundry expenses. As a uniformed service, the Vigilante Corps has to look smart. At least some sort of allowance should be given to cover such incidental expenses. I wish to point out what the Minister promised during the debate on the Bill. He said that he would look into the matter. So far nothing has happened and I hope he will give an explanation.

Sir, in spite of many difficulties, the management committees of community centres in various constituencies are trying their best to provide free tea, cigarettes, etc, to members of the Vigilante Corps. But they have their limits. They have many other expenses. In spite of all these difficulties in my constituency, I am happy to announce that the management committee has, with the help of MacPherson South C.C.C. Section Committee, opened a Vigilante Corps Post last month. Sir, may I take this opportunity to say that we have about 35 women V.C, members in our constituency? They all joined very recently and are now undergoing training. In order to encourage more men and women to join the Vigilante Corps, I request the Minister to look into the question of providing them with the facilities I have mentioned earlier. The Chairman (Mr Tang See Chim): Inche Mohd, Ariff.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, I must congratulate the Member for Aljunied on helping to bring about the opening of a new V.C, station.

The Vigilante Corps first started as a voluntary organisation during the Indonesian confrontation and has done splendid work to prevent subversion. With the end of confrontation and the beginning of national service, we thought it a good idea to send our young national servicemen to fill up the Vigilante Corps. In the Vigilante Corps itself, as the spirit of civic-consciousness and service to the community is so strong, we felt that we should not dilute it by giving allowances to the new national servicemen in the Vigilante corps. However, we decided sometime last month that at least they should not be out of pocket for their transport, and now members of the Vigilante Corps are provided with a transport allowance.

The idea of the Vigilante Corps is that it should be an organisation to help change the attitude that has been handed down by past generations in this country, that is, lack of civic-consciousness, community service and standard of public behaviour. We hope that by getting the young national servicemen into the Vigilante Corps and by training them in discipline and service to the community, it will be one of the means by which we can change their attitude to the community. As I have said, since the Vigilante Corps started with very ideal and unselfish motives, we do not like to dilute it by making it a mercenary concern,

Now for the information of the Member for Mountbatten, there are 110 V.C, posts so far in the Republic, and the total number of national servicemen undergoing training for part-time service in the Vigilante Corps is 2,396. I can assure him that not only I but also the Minister for Finance will see to it that the vote of $1,300,000 will be well spent and not misused.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: In view of the answer given by the Minister to this House, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2018.

Sir, when I spoke on this Head last year, I asked for an explanation why certain Government buildings such as the General Post Office, etc, were not decorated during National Day. The previous Minister of Defence told this House that he saw no merit in decorating Government offices on National Day as the day would be a public holiday. He further stated that the policy of the Government with regard to last year's National Day was to move away from the decoration of Government offices to the decoration of the town and to brighten up the main streets and thoroughfares where people live. Sir, I am still unable to understand the logic of that argument. It is true that the public may not be visiting Government offices on business, but I am sure the Minister will agree with me when I say that most of our citizens will be away from their homes in holiday mood, and they may be around the Padang and Government offices at Empress Place. Sir, I say that it is necessary to decorate these buildings. These are sights which will impress the people and inculcate in them a sense of national pride and the children will find it difficult to forget the decorations and the reason for them. Thus the young and old will have a sense of national pride instilled in them. The Government normally request the public and organisations to decorate their homes and buildings. The Ministry of Education directs all schools to decorate their buildings. It is for the same reason that I request the Minister to direct all Government departments to decorate their buildings. Last year, Sir, I think the boats in our waters were not dressed up as expected. I hope in the following year the Marine Department will take the necessary steps to see that vessels are dressed up. In addition, I would suggest that the department make arrangements with masters of boats to have their sirens blown at a particular time.

Sir, I have come across a certain Government building flying our national flag at half-mast! Of course, no one would have done it deliberately, but I would request the Minister to issue circulars to all departments that they take care to see that their flags are properly hoisted. This may be a small matter but it is in respect of such matters that we can instil a sense of national pride in our people.

5.30 p.m.

Sir, we are not spending a small amount on our National Day celebration. With a large sum and careful planning we can succeed in two aims; first, celebrating our National Day grandly; second, cultivating a sense of national pride among our people.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, if the Member for Aljunied is in charge of finance, he will see the logic of what my predecessor has said. It is a question of priority, whether we should decorate the buildings at the expense of decorating the streets and the roads. Therefore, with the limited funds at our disposal, it is up to those who are in charge to see which is more preferable, whether to decorate the buildings with lights and bunting, or to have the streets, including the fields and the roundabouts, lined with flags.

Sir, as to the Member's other point. I will give instructions to my Ministry to see that the flags are properly hoisted and not at half-mast, as the Member said he saw last year.

With regard to the proposal for sounding the ships' sirens, here I beg to differ from him. I do not think that in the middle of the National Day celebration the public of Singapore would like to hear howling sirens all around them, because it might remind some of us of the unhappy days through which we have come.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2103.

Sir, will the Minister inform the House what is the use of this sum of money and who benefits from it?

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, this is a provision to meet the cost of free education for the Commissioner's rank and file cadets, a scheme which was started in 1953 to prepare suitably qualified members of the rank and file for promotion to the inspectorate by providing a course of instruction leading to the Cambridge School Certificate Examination after five years' study. This scheme was fundamentally designed to increase the number of Malay officers in the Force in order to maintain a fair balance in the inspectorate in proportion to the existing racial ratio in the rank and file, The total annual graduateship is not to exceed 50 and the Cadets are entitled to free education, books and fees for the Cambridge School Certificate Examination. The provision for the current year is $27,920 and for 1968 the provision is $25,000.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2110.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

5.35 p.m.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: Sir, this provision is for "Barrack Conservancy and Maintenance of Compounds". I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Defence to the police barracks at Jalan Eunos -the black building -which appears to me no longer suitable for habitation for the police. The Minister for Social Affairs bore witness to this when he visited Kampong Kembangan. So I would request the Minister of Defence to give the policemen more suitable accommodation, such as flats, or to construct new barracks in the area, because the present barrack at Kaki Bukit, which is called the "black barrack", is no longer suitable for the policemen.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, my Ministry is now looking into the question of whether it is feasible and worth while economically to make structural alterations to the barracks at Jalan Eunos. It is only after the result of that study is made known that we will decide whether to carry on with the alterations or to pull down the barracks and build new ones elsewhere. I can assure the Member that the welfare of the officers, especially the police, is always uppermost in our minds and we will see to it that suitable quarters are provided for officers and men of the police force as far as possible.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): With that explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2120.

Sir, can the Minister explain to whom these leave passages and rail fares are given? Also, why is there an increase of about $55,000?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I remember in the debate which took place a few days ago on the supplementary budget, the Back-benchers were accusing the Ministry of Finance of not anticipating expenditure that could be incurred and of not being exact in their forecast. Now in this respect here, we have been able to work out the expenditure carefully and we find that we require an increase of $55,000 for passages and rail fares, because there is going to be an increase in the number of officers and men of the Gurkha Contingent who will be going on leave this year. Therefore, the provision is for the officers, men and families of the Gurkha Contingent to take their leave that is due to them.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 2130.

Mr Speaker, under this item we can see that next year the vote for prisoners in respect of rations will be less than the vote for this year. Does it mean that the treatment of prisoners will deteriorate next year, or does it mean that there will be less prisoners next year, or does the Minister anticipate my reduction in the prices of rations? Or are there any other reasons?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I must explain that the provision here is not for the supply of rations to prisoners but the supply of rations to persons who are being detained by the police pending investigation. I assure the Member for Bukit Merah that the rations for people held pending investigation and prisoners are prescribed by medical as well as nutritional experts.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: (In Mandarin): If that is so, why call them prisoners?

5.45 p.m.

Mr Lim Kim San: If the Member for Bukit Merah wants to be precise, he has got a point there. I agree that the correct interpretation of it is that they are not prisoners but just people under detention.

The Chairman: Mr Minister, if I may draw from my own knowledge? This is rather historical. In Victorian times all persons arrested were called "prisoners". Today, of course, we use the word "prisoner" only to describe a convicted person serving a term of imprisonment.

Mr Lim Kim San: Thank you, Mr Speaker, Sir.

The Chairman: Mr Lim Guan Hoo, I take it that you are asking leave to withdraw your amendment?

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: (In Mandarin): Yes. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker. Sir, I move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2133.

Sir, a few schools in my constituency need the services of school crossing patrols. Can the Minister explain the procedure to get these services?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am quite surprised that the Member for Aljunied does not know the procedure for application of school crossing patrols. For his information, normally it is the Principal of the school who makes the application to the police who, if they find that there is a case for a school crossing patrol, will give approval for the school to engage such patrols.

However, Mr Speaker, Sir, with so many members of the public coming forward to serve the community, I am hoping that the teachers will follow suit and respond to the growing awareness of community service and civic consciousness by offering themselves to guide school children across the road, instead of expecting the Government to spend money on providing these patrols. I look forward to seeing some positive action taken by the teachers in this direction.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lingam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3004.

Sir, members of the People's Defence Force are now given about 3« months' holiday. They are to report for duty on or about 15th March, 1968. I understand that the reason for such a long vacation is that arrangements are being made for a reorganisation of the P.D.F. Sir, I welcome such a reorganisation and I am sure that, like me, Members of the House will be very happy to know the details of the proposed reorganisation. Can the Minister give an elaborate account of it?

Next, Sir, I understand that after the reorganisation, volunteers will be called for training only twice a month and not twice a week as at present. At a time when the Government want our people, especially the young people, to be rugged and tough, does the Minister think that training given twice a month will make them acquire the quality needed? Will training given twice a month make a man a good soldier? I hope the Minister will give a satisfactory answer.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope that the Member for Aljunied, in his desire to be trained more than twice a month, is not motivated by the allowance provided for members of the P.D.F. while under training! I can assure him that we will not deviate from our objective of making our young people rugged. Therefore, in the training programme that we will be drawing up for the P.D.F., whether it be two or three times a month or even once a month, we will see to it that it will tax their physical endurance to the utmost.

As regards the reorganisation of the P.D.F., the intention -and I think it is known to members of the P.D.F. -is that national conscripts are now being transferred to the P.D.F. With the present organisation in the P.D.F., it is not possible to give the requisite training to the continuous intake of national servicemen. Therefore, it has been decided to give the P.D.F, a 3« months' holiday, so that the full-time instructors in the P.D.F, can now attend a course to enable them to undertake the training of the P.D.F, which will now include national servicemen.

Lastly, the idea is that the P.D.F, will now be reorganised into battalions and will be given requisite training which we think will enable them to better assist in the defence of the country. Beyond that, Mr Speaker, Sir, I will not go.

Mr Lingam: I beg to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Guan Boo: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3091.

The Singapore Work Brigade has been set up for quite some time. Normally before any work is allotted to them to carry out, it has to have the approval of the Urban and Rural Services Committee. But that usually takes several years! And after approval is given, it will take two or three years before the work is actually carried out. So efficiency is reduced. Generally speaking, if the work projects are minor ones, they should have been carried out by the Member of Parliament concerned after consultation with the relevant authorities, including the Singapore Work Brigade. But it is not so. So I hope the Minister will pay attention to this and give an explanation.

I see that the provision for 1968 has been reduced by more than $1 million. Can the Minister explain this?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Singapore Work Brigade was first set up to give those young school leavers who could not find work some training, skill and discipline, so that once they get any work they would fit in more easily. But with national service, it is found that the necessary training and discipline can be given in the various bodies into which these national servicemen are directed. Therefore, the Singapore Work Brigade is being run down; hence the reduction of more than $1 million this year.

With regard to the question of allowing the Work Brigade to undertake certain work for Members of Parliament to improve the minor works in their constituencies, while this is desirable, it is also important for Members of Parliament to understand that there must be centralised control. There must also be control of finances, because all this work entails finances. And if work projects in the rural areas or constituencies are not directed by a single body, there would be duplication and chaos, and certain constituencies, through the influence of their Members of Parliament, and with cajoling, persuasion and other means, would be able to get more than their just share. Where the work is really urgent, I think Members of Parliament could easily approach the U.R.S.C., and I am sure that the U.R.S.C, would approve the project and get it done in double-quick time.

Mr Lim Guan Boo: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr S. V. Lingam -

(15) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3161.

Mr Lingam: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment (16)*. Mr Ho See Beng.

• Amendment (16). which also stood in the names of Mr. Teong Eng Siong and Madam Chan Choy Siong, reads as follows:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $100.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to seek your permission to speak on both the Heads, M.I.D. and Immigration. Since my name has been put down for this amendment, together with the names of Madam Chan Choy Siong (Member for Delta), and Mr Teong Eng Siong (Member for Sembawang), I wonder whether you will allow me to speak on Immigration instead of the M.I.D, as a whole.

The Chairman: Mr Ho, I am afraid I cannot do that. But I am sure the consideration which you give to Mr Teong and Madam Chan under the head, Ministry of Interior and Defence, will in turn be given by them to you when we come to the head, Immigration. In other words, if you treat them kindly now, they will treat you kindly later.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have, in fact, made this mutual arrangement with the Member for Sembawang. But I do not know whether the Member for Delta will agree to such an arrangement, so that when we come to Head 0402, Immigration, I will withdraw my amendment.

The Chairman: The point now is this: under amendment (16) you can direct your remarks to the whole of the Ministry other than Immigration, because that comes under a separate head. But if we save time now, we will have more time later. That is the point.

Mr Ho See Beng: I agree with your suggestion, Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $100,

Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to speak in Mandarin,

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, last year in this House I spoke on the debate on the Budget then presented. At that time I raised the question of immigration, namely, citizens of Singapore who applied for the entry of their parents into Singapore. At that time Immigration was under the jurisdiction of the Deputy Prime Minister and I remember that he then agreed and promised that if citizens of Singapore wanted to apply for their parents to come to Singapore -

The Chairman: Order, Mr Ho. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. If you want to speak on Immigration, I suggest you wait for the next head. I will call Mr Teong and Madam Chan under amendment (16) .

Mr Ho See Beng: In that case, Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not speaking on my amendment on the M.I.D.

The Chairman: Mr Teong, amendment (16) under Head 0401. Mr Teong, are you going to speak in Tamil?

6.00 p.m.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): I hope in future I will be able to speak in Tamil. Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $100.

The Ministry of Defence in the past one year has done much to build up our armed forces and expand the police force. The sum allotted for this Ministry is about $100 million. It is quite a large sum and is a great deal more than what was allotted for 1967. In the circumstances, I feel that this amount is necessary to match the present conditions of Singapore. I feel that the defence forces and the police are necessary for the protection of the lives and property of the people and the maintenance of law and order in our country, Ours is a very small country. Our population is small and we do not have much money to spend on the building up of our armed forces. Therefore, we have the national service scheme to enable young people to join these forces. On the one hand, this will lessen our economic burden. On the other hand, this will enable our youngsters to take up their responsibility of national defence and service to the country. This scheme was implemented in March this year. It is supported by people in all walks of life in spite of the opposition by anti-national elements to whom nobody pays any attention, This move to take up national service is a very patriotic act and should have our praise. Sir, ours is a non-Communist, democratic, socialist country. Ours is a country which looks after the welfare of all the people. So the aim of the armed forces is to inculcate in the minds of their members the spirit and consciousness to defend the country. Therefore, the Defence Ministry issued sometime this year a code of conduct to the armed forces. This is a very good thing and I hope that all personnel will abide by this code.

Sir, I have two suggestions to make to the Minister of Defence. I hope he will pay very careful attention to what I am going to say. He must not misunderstand my suggestions and give me answers which are not what I have asked for, or to give me answers which I do not expect. The first suggestion is about the spirit of unity of our people. Based on this principle, we must improve the relationship between the police and the public. In the colonial era and also under the Lim Yew Hock regime, the police represented an instrument for suppression of the people. But now we are an independent and democratic country. Therefore, the police must in their dealings with the people behave well in order to make the people know that they are their protectors. In the past, the police had to conduct certain campaigns such as, "Be together with the people". These campaigns were meant to improve the relationship between the police and the public. I think they are very meaningful and should be encouraged.

The second suggestion is that women should also take up national service, because ours is an egalitarian society. Therefore, they should be allowed to join the armed forces. They have put up a very good show in the People's Defence Force, the police and the Vigilante Corps.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, we have heard a lot from the Member for Sembawang urging other people to join the armed forces but he himself has not volunteered.

Talking about defence, there is something which we should recognise, i.e., the independence of Singapore. After the British military withdrawal, we still cannot completely change the concept that Singapore is a military base. The position of Singapore after independence is still of great strategic importance. So the importance of Singapore, other than in trade and commerce, lies in its ability to defend itself against any foreign control or invasion. Some people say that the progress of armament nowadays, the technique of military strategy and form of military warfare have undergone so great a revolution that the defence of our country has become unnecessary. But ever since ancient times there has been an immutable principle, i.e., people will have to defend their country and armaments are meant to protect the country against foreign control or invasion. Arms alone are not sufficient to occupy others' territories, Our country is still suitable as a naval base, Without defence forces, we cannot become an independent country. We may not be able to protect our people as an independent people, to enjoy freedom and to exist as a people. The defence programmes have been aimed at our protection against foreign invasion and the protection of our sovereignty and territorial integrity. In view of this, it is necessary to continue to develop our defence preparedness. Based on this principle, while we are developing our economy, we should also develop our military capacity. This is also important at the present juncture. Therefore, to develop our defence capacity, we must pay attention to the study of military armaments of advanced countries, coupled with science in the development of the economy, so that scientific development and military development can both be used to achieve the greatest benefit to the country. These three kinds of development -economic, military and scientific -will make a country strong. Therefore, Singapore should also develop its military capacity. Although the British military forces will be withdrawn, we will have to consider whether our military strength is able to protect us against any foreign invasion.

Sir, I hope the Minister can give an assurance in this House so as to ensure that we are going to protect our people.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, I can assure the hon. Member for Delta that our teeth are growing!

I do not know whether the Member for Sembawang was in the Chamber when the Member for Aljunied spoke on the question of police/public relationship. If not, I would suggest that he exchange notes with the Member for Aljunied and he will see the other side of the picture. He will be aware also that there has been a great improvement in police/public relationship, due largely to the training that we are giving to our officers and men in the Police Training School. The public has responded readily to this change of attitude of the police and has come forward with information which has greatly helped the police in maintaining peace, order and the suppression of crime.

It is our desire, of course, to have women conscripted and directed to the various youth movements that we have, Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, Sir, it is just not a question of conscripting, but having conscripted such a large number of persons, they must be trained, and that is where the bottle-neck is. We do not have sufficient men or women instructors to train them. Therefore, at the moment, except for those in the Vigilante Corps and a few in the Special Constabulary, we are not conscripting women. But later on perhaps, when we have enough instructors, we will probably conscript women into the services.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $100,819,730 for Head 0401 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

6.15 p.m.

Head 0402 -

Mr Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0402 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 100l*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand many of our citizens who have applied for the entry of their aged parents into Singapore have not been successful. I also understand most of these applicants are reasonably well off and the supporting of one or two over-aged parents is no problem to them. In fact, many of these applicants have been and are still sending money regularly to their parents overseas. If their parents are allowed to come in, it will save us foreign exchange.

Will the Minister consider modifying the immigration regulations to allow these aged parents, who will not jeopardise our economy or security in any way, to enter Singapore?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not speaking.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Just now I have mentioned this item regarding immigration and I say that formerly it came under the jurisdiction of the Deputy Prime Minister. Last year, during the Budget debate in which I took part, I was given an assurance by him that the applications of Singapore citizens who desire their parents to come into Singapore would be considered only if such parents are above 60 or 65 years old. At the same time, he also said that the applicants must have sufficient means to maintain their aged parents coming into Singapore so that Singapore will not have an additional social burden. These statements by the Deputy Prime Minister appear in Hansard.

This year I have received certain complaints from my constituents, One person complained about his application regarding his old mother in Hong Kong whose daughter is married, According to Chinese tradition, the wife follows the husband. In this instance, the daughter is unable to support her mother. But this old lady's only son, who is running a shop in Singapore, has enough means to support her. Several applications have been made to the Immigration Department for the entry of this old lady into Singapore, but I do not know why approval has not been granted. In fact, the application was rejected by the Immigration Department and no reason was given. This is really incomprehensible. There is perhaps a lot of bureaucracy in the Immigration Department. This old lady in Hong Kong i5 now 83 years old. It is rare for a person to live up to the age of 70, but this old lady has already exceeded the age of 80. So if the Government will allow her to enter Singapore. I think she will have only a limited number of days in which to enjoy life in our country. It is my hope that the Government will consider such cases sympathetically. The people elect us for their own interest, They do not elect us to cause them trouble or difficulties as a result of passing restrictive laws. We should not pass such laws on the people who elect us. We must be consistent in whatever we do. Mr Speaker, Sir, if you are, or any Minister is, in the applicant's shoes, I do not know how you or the Minister will feel about it.

I hope the Government will sympathetically consider the case of this old lady and allow her to enter Singapore so that her son here can be reunited with her. I am sure they will be very grateful -and I too will be grateful -to the Minister,

(In English): If I may go on in English -

The Chairman: Mr Ho, there is a Standing Order against changing languages half-way through a speech.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am quite aware of the Standing Order that does not allow me to switch from one language to another. But in view of the fact that you have not been very strict about it, I crave your indulgence to allow me to quote another instance in English.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr S. Rajaratnam): What about a Tamil translation?

The Chairman: Mr Ho, I am afraid I cannot allow that. Mr Ho, you cannot say I have not been strict about this Standing Order because, in fact, this is the first occasion an hon. Member has sought to switch from one language to another midway in a speech.

Mr Ho See Beng: In which case, I will continue talking in Mandarin to the best of my ability.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture (Mr Fong Sip Chee): Unrehearsed!

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): This is the behaviour of the Government. If the Government can allow a strip-teaser to come into Singapore for a low-brow type of performance, why is it that the Government cannot allow an old lady to come into Singapore to be reunited with her son here? If this is the policy of the Government, then I can only say that the sooner it is given up, the better for us.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Sir, on a point of clarification. The Member for Bras Basah has said that the Government allows entertainment of a low taste amounting almost to vulgarity and does not allow an old man or an old woman to come into Singapore. May I clarify? Perhaps I can take this up at a later stage when the Ministry of Culture is involved?

The Chairman: I think that will be more appropriate, Mr Fong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I heard with interest the speech made by the Member for Bras Basah and I have the same sympathetic feelings for our citizens who have parents in China, India or other countries. We should consider their applications sympathetically. If the parents of our citizens are over 65 years old, we should give them a chance to come into Singapore. I do not want to dwell any longer on this matter.

I want to refer now to the complaints against the staff of the Immigration Department for being discourteous to the public. They come into close contact with people from all over the world. It is important that they should be courteous because the tourists who come to Singapore will then be able to tell the world at large about the courteous service accorded to them in Singapore. So if they give courteous and efficient service to tourists, we will then have a good reputation. If they are indifferent or rude, that will damage our international reputation. This courtesy accorded to tourists must also be extended to our own people. If the staff of the Immigration Department cannot treat the people well, they cannot treat others well.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the next point is about the strict regulations on travellers. Many travellers from abroad come to Singapore for a stay of about three months and sometimes they ask for an extension of stay of two or three months. They have their sponsors in Singapore. So we should give them every facility and grant them an extension of stay in Singapore because they come here to spend money and this benefits our country. I hope the Immigration Department will consider this.

These are the two points I wish to bring to the notice of the Minister.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, since the previous two Members have spoken on this amendment, I am taking the opportunity of joining in the debate so that I do not have to speak on Head 0402.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am in full agreement with the points raised by the Member for Bras Basah. We know that in the past immigration restrictions were imposed for sound reasons. The age limit was fixed with regard to factors prevailing in the past. Now that Singapore is independent and there is a sense of loyalty to the Republic among the people, we should not ignore the fact that our citizens long nostalgically for their parents in China or India. In order to ensure that they are able to concentrate their attention on their business in Singapore, I feel we should change the outdated regulations and restrictions particularly affecting people who are more than 65 years old. This will strengthen the sentimental links of our people with their old folks in foreign countries.

If our citizens have parents abroad, they usually remit money to them on which there is no limitation. If they also have relatives abroad, then they have to remit more money. This will invariably affect and drain our national income. If our citizens can be reunited with their families, they will incur less expenditure as they do not have to make large remittances abroad.

6.30 p.m.

Another point of view is for humanitarian reasons. Filial piety is something we should consider and this is also a point of morality. All of us would like members of the family to be united. So if we try to separate the members of the same family by our strict laws, it will be rather inhuman. And if we stipulate that old folks must be above the age of 65 before they can be considered for entry into our country, then this is an unreasonable condition. Normally when they reach the age of 65, they may not be healthy enough to come to Singapore, and even if they should come, I am afraid they may die soon after their arrival; in which case their families here will have to spend money on their coffins. The other question is that while Singapore is now reclaiming land, the space taken up by these coffins meant for these old folks from abroad will give rise to a shortage of land. This ill be another drain on our limited resources, which is land.

So from these various points of view, I feel that the present regulations controlling immigration are not quite proper. We should reduce the age limit of 65 so as to enable more people to come in, so that they can have more years with their families here. I hope the Government will give sympathetic consideration to my suggestion. I hope all families affected by these regulations will be comforted by the new Government policy on this subject.

Mr Tang See Chum: Mr Speaker, Sir, there are only two points I wish to bring up in this debate. The first point has already been touched on by the Member for Sembawang, that is, tourism and visas for tourists. The second point is about travel documents for our residents holding blue identity cards,

On the question of tourism, I think there is some contradiction between the Government department responsible for tourism and the Immigration Department, If it is our intention to attract tourists, we cannot be too choosey about them. We cannot ask them to wait for a long time for a visa before we allow them to land in Singapore. But it would appear that our Immigration Department is still very strict with regard to tourists and I have heard of instances where a tourist had to wait for weeks, if not months, before he could get a tourist visa. As far as I can see, if a tourist has the proper travel documents with a return air or sea ticket, and the necessary travellers' cheques to support him during his stay here, I think that should be good enough and he could be issued with a tourist visa on the spot. But this does not seem to be the policy here. I do not think we can impose very strict conditions on the one hand while trying to attract tourists on the other.

On the second question, I think a lot of our residents with blue identity cards are in a dilemma. They will not be issued with travel papers by the Immigration Department unless, according to the Immigration Department, these people can produce certificates to the effect that they are stateless. Many of our residents who are holders of blue identity cards are from West Malaysia; and when they go to the Malaysian High Commission for such a certificate, they are issued with some sort of a cyclostyled letter stating that they are non-citizens of Malaysia and are, therefore, not entitled to a passport. But this paper is not accepted by the Immigration Department as a certificate of their statelessness, and consequently this Department refuse to issue them with travel documents. There are many instances of a blue Singapore identity card holder wanting to go back to West Malaysia to visit his aged mother who is dying or very sick, and yet he could not do so simply because we do not issue him with the necessary travel papers.

I think this is a rather difficult state of affairs for the blue identity card holder, and should be corrected. As I see it, the travel paper, i.e., the Certificate of Identity, has a very clear note saying that it is issued for the convenience of the holder to travel and in no way prejudices his national status. And if the Immigration Department want to be satisfied with his stateless-ness, I suppose a statutory declaration by himself should suffice. Can the Minister look into this matter?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, in the example quoted by the Member for Bras Basah in Mandarin and the Member for Choa Chu Kang with respect to the difficulty of getting a tourist visa, I would like to say only this: one swallow does not make a summer. These are exceptions to the rule and we have certain rules and regulations which are very necessary for an orderly society.

With regard to the applications for entry and admission of aged parents of Singapore citizens into Singapore, if they conform to these rules and regulations, I do not see any difficulty in giving them permission to come in. It is only in cases where they do not conform that all these difficulties arise.

As far as we know, there has been no difficulty at all for tourists to obtain visas in Singapore. In fact, we have made it easier by making the following provision. We are extending the length of time that air passengers can remain in Singapore without a visa - from 48 to 96 hours. In other words, anyone who visits Singapore by air can stay in Singapore for up to 96 hours without a visa.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the proposal of the Member for Delta to reduce the age is a problem which I think has been considered. One must remember that once the age limit is lowered, there may be a flood of people coming into Singapore on this pretext. Though our economy is improving and expanding, we are not out of the woods yet, and it would not do for us at this moment to carry a very large proportion of the population who bring no economic benefit at all to us. I think Members of the Government and also the civil service have the same humanitarian feeling as the Back-benchers, especially the Member for Bras Basah -we are as touched as he is by the fate of these people who would like to be reunited with their parents. But there are certain considerations of a larger issue which we must have in mind.

One point here which I do not understand is all this talk about filial piety and filial duty at this time when during the last few years it was so easy for parents to come in, and suddenly there is now talk of filial piety and filial duty. This is something which I cannot understand at all. In drawing up our rules and regulations for admission of aged parents here, we have taken the humanitarian aspect into consideration, and I do not think we can further relax it without undue harm to our rate of progress in the economic field.

With regard to the question of certificates of identity for holders of blue identity cards, the matter is being looked into. I will not make any commitment just now. We understand the invidious position in which these people are put, and we shall try to do our best to see that they are given travel facilities without in any way committing ourselves to being responsible for them.

Mr Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister did not reply to my question. Is he relaxing the immigration regulations or not?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, this matter was carefully considered and some amendments were made by lowering the age limit. I do not think it is possible now to make any further amendments to make it easier for people to come in.

Mr Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of hon. Members that leave be given for the withdrawal of the amendment?

Some hon. Members: No.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Amendment accordingly negatived.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr S.V. Lingam -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0402 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3001.

Mr Lingam: I am not moving, Sir.

The following amendment stood in the names of Madam Chan Choy Siong, Mr Teong Eng Siong, Mr Ho See Beng, and Mr Tang See Chim -

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0402 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, Mr Teong, Mr Ho and Mr Tang, I take it that none of you are moving this amendment, as each of you has spoken on it?

Madam Chan, Mr Teong, and Mr Ho indicated they would not be moving.

Mr Tang See Chim: I have spoken on it, and I am not moving it.

The sum of $1,690,940 for Head 0402 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

6.45 p.m.

Head 0501 -

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Sir, with your permission, I wish in the course of my debate to touch on Amendment (2)* which stands in my name in respect of subhead 1201. I notice that several overseas missions have been established and are headed by High Commissioners and Ambassadors, Against their designations are the salary codes and their grades. Sir, it is interesting to note that we have different grades of High Commissioners and Ambassadors, Just to quote, Sir, the High Commissioner in Kuala Lumpur is Grade III, salary code 1-4. In New York, the Ambassador holds the rank of Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary, Grade II. The High Commissioner in London is Grade II. I can go on drawing examples of the same, and we then come to Hong Kong where the High Commissioner's grade is IV. Sir, I shall be extremely grateful if the Minister for Foreign Affairs will explain this to the House.

• Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1201.

I have also been informed that some of our foreign missions are housed in fiats. In other words, the fiat serves both as the office and the residence of the Ambassador or the High Commissioner. Sir, in this respect, will the Foreign Minister state the number of missions which have proper offices and accommodation?

I now come to Amendment (2) standing in my name regarding subhead 1201. Sir, under this subhead "Locally-recruited Staff", I take it that the staff have been recruited locally. In this case it is in London. If one goes down the list one comes across "Confidential Secretary". This is the post I wish to enquire about. I take it that the office of Confidential Secretary is filled by a locally-recruited officer in the U.K. If I remember correctly, going through the other overseas missions, I do not see any Confidential Secretary who has been recruited locally. There is none, in fact. I just want to know what sort of confidential secretarial work this Confidential Secretary is doing and, if it is so confidential in nature, I think we should rather have our own home-based staff than a person recruited locally.

Mr Rajaratnam: Sir, first, in regard to the grading of Ambassadors and High Commissioners. There are in all three grades -I, II and III. Grade I is really the Permanent Secretary, and the other two, the Ambassadors and High Commissioners, come within either of these two grades -Grade II or Grade III. This grading is done partly on the basis of the importance for us of the particular mission, or it may be on the basis of the person concerned, because some of the appointments are political appointments. So it is on this basis that the grading of the respective Ambassadors or High Commissioners is done.

In regard to housing, finding houses and chancelleries for our respective missions, especially by a government, is a very delicate affair because when people know that the Singapore Government is going to buy a house or a chancellery, prices tend to be higher. It involves long and protracted negotiations. But, by and large, in most of our missions we have managed to purchase residences and chancelleries. I think the exception is the particular case the hon. Member has in mind, that is, in London where the High Commissioner uses his fiat as his office and residence. This is partly because we are still considering an appropriate residence for the High Commissioner. This is not unusual, Sir, because I think, in Washington we are doing the same. For example, in Washington we took over from another well-established mission which had been conducting its business in a hotel suite. If you want to go for prestige regardless of expense, then, of course, you can buy the most expensive house and the most expensive chancellery. So it is because of this that in one or two places the matter has not been resolved. But in the case of London we have got a house in mind. We have purchased it and we are considering how we can renovate and decorate it so that the Ambassador will have a house. We have also purchased a chancellery which is in the process of being renovated for him to move into, and it will be ready as soon as possible.

As regards the third point -Confidential Secretary -yes, she is a locally-recruited staff member but she also happens to be a Malaysian citizen. I think she has had long connections with Singapore too, and she has been in this job for quite some time because this is part of our trade section. As far as I know, the designation "Confidential Secretary" is the old one for a grade of officer higher than a stenographer but lower than a Personal Assistant. So maybe next time we will take great care to change the name of the post and that might satisfy the hon. Member. It is true that like all secretarial work, this post of "Confidential Secretary" does involve certain confidential correspondence and files. But if it is very highly confidential and is of a nature which we do not want to pass through the hands of a non-citizen, then, of course, we will consider employing a Singapore citizen. But considering the kind of work she is involved in, and the fact that she has been on the job for a long time, there is nothing unusual in her continuing with her present job without any major disaster to Singapore. In fact, I understand that the designation of this post might be changed to Information Assistant, and I do not know whether that would satisfy the hon. Member.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, taking one point from the Hon. Minister's reply regarding the grades, I would think that in the Estimates there is always such a thing as probable un-expenditure. Why not have a proper uniform grade, and where an Ambassador has been appointed part-time I think he should draw a part-time salary? Is it correct? I am not quite satisfied with the answer and I will take a vote on that.

The Chairman: The Question is, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001." As many as are of that opinion, say Aye.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Aye.

The Chairman: To the contrary, say No.

Other hon. Members: No.

The Chairman: I think the Noes have it? The Noes have it.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Division, Sir.

The Chairman: I am afraid you are too late, Mr Ng. You called for a division after I said, "The Noes have it" for the second time.

Amendment (2)* is not being moved.

• Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1201.

Mr Lingam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respects of subhead 1631.

Sir, this item refers to the Singapore High Commission in Johore Bahru. Johore Bahru is only about 16 miles from our General Post Office. And there is one High Commission in the centre of West Malaysia. In view of the proximity, I think there should be some good reason for establishing an office at a place which is only a few yards away from our border. Sir, I would like to know the special reasons for opening up an office at Johore Bahru and any particular service this office would serve to foreigners and Singaporeans.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I fully support the amendment moved by my colleague, the hon. Member for Aljunied. I notice that we have such a Commission set up in Johore Bahru which is about 16 miles from us, In fact, it is much nearer by the Causeway. I would like to believe that the primary purpose of setting up this Commission is to iron out the difficulties encountered by our citizens who travel to West Malaysia on the restricted passports. I may be wrong, and I hope the Hon. Foreign Minister will explain fully on the setting up of such a small Commission in Johore Bahru when we already have a Commission set up in the capital of Malaysia.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock (River Valley): Mr Speaker, Sir, can I touch on this same subject so that I need not move my amendment (6)* which is also on this subject?

*Amendment (6) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2094.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I entirely disagree with the other two speakers that this Commission should not be set up at Johore Bahru.

7.00 p.m.

Mr Lingam rose -

The Chairman: Mr Lim, are you prepared to give way?

Mr Lim Cheng Lock resumed his seat,

Mr Lingam: Sir, I wanted to know from the Minister the purpose of opening this Commission. I did not say that I am objecting to its opening at Johore Bahru.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Sir, I wish to seek information from the Minister as to the functions and scope of this Commission and when it will be set up in Johore Bahru.

Mr Rajaratnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, this diplomatic post is being considered for Johore and it will be a Commission. The fact is that there have been certain difficulties arising from applications for visas by Singapore citizens in Malaysia who, if they are living in Johore or South Malaya, have to go all the way to Kuala Lumpur. We have occasions when some of our citizens from right across the other side of the Causeway look wistfully across to Singapore but they cannot come in without proper travel papers. We feel, in case there are such problems, this diplomatic post in Johore Bahru will facilitate travel for some of our own citizens.

Secondly, it is also for tourists who might have come down to Johore Bahru or the Johore area who have to get visas from Kuala Lumpur. So if we have an office in Johore Bahru which will be under the control of the Kuala Lumpur High Commission, I think it might facilitate matters both for the tourists and our citizens. Of course, it is all subject to our clearing these matters with Kuala Lumpur. In fact, the intention is not to set up an office immediately. It is intended to have an E.O. or a Third Secretary who will be able to discharge many of these rather small functions which might facilitate things for our citizens and for some of the tourists.

Mr Lingam: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Ng is not moving amendment No. (4)*. Mr Lim, amendment No. (5) .

• Amendment No. 4 reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead 1631.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2090.

In moving this amendment, I wish to seek information from the Minister as to when this mission will be set up in Tokyo and whether an Ambassador has been appointed.

Mr Rajaratnam: Yes, it is definitely our intention to establish a mission in Tokyo as soon as possible. In fact, we had an Ambassador-designate in mind. But he died. So we have to look around for another Ambassador. This is a fairly important post and we need a man of extreme intelligence and perception in Tokyo. That being so, I cannot say when this mission will be set up but most likely I hope it will be in April or May next year.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: I beg to withdraw the amendment, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (6)+, not being moved, Mr Lim?

• Amendment No. (6) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2094.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (7) , Mr Tang.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $l00++.

++ The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Teong Eng Siong, Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi, Mr Chow Chiok Hock and Madam Chan Choy Siong.

In fact, what I want to say has been anticipated by the hon. Member for River Valley. What I wanted to ask of the Foreign Minister was why an embassy in Japan had not been established, although in the Estimates for 1967 there was provision for the setting up of such an embassy. In view of the fact that we have very close trading relations with Japan, and especially in our industrialization efforts a great deal of capital as well as technical skill have come from Japan, I think the establishment of an embassy in Japan should have been given priority. I notice from the establishment of the other missions that possibly the Foreign Ministry has given wrong priorities to the setting up of these overseas missions,

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, this year the Estimates for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has reached the figure of $7,395,530. This is an increase of about $2 million over the figure for last year. I know that this increase in the estimates has been due to the increase in the number of missions in various countries and because of additional expenses incurred in acquiring accommodation. This has been necessary in order to strengthen our relationship with other countries, especially in trade.

[Mr Lim Cheng Lock in the Chair]

7.09 p.m.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: This has also been necessary to increase our national income. Therefore, I support the increase in the expenditure of this Ministry. This increase is meaningful.

We have to admit that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, under the able leadership of our Minister, Mr Rajaratnam, has successfully carried out our neutral and non-aligned policy. We have seen just now that the Minister has the air of a diplomat. Our policy in foreign affairs is to have the maximum number of friends and the minimum number of enemies -best of all, not to have any enemies at all. This has won approval from many countries in the world.

Sir, I have to mention that in October this year our Prime Minister, together with the Foreign Minister and the Minister of State for Education, visited the United States of America and they were welcomed by the American Government with the greatest cordiality. The speeches made by the Prime Minister were very well received by the people in America, and other countries too. In fact, the visit of our Prime Minister has not only strengthened our position in international affairs, but it has also enhanced our reputation. At the same time, it has also facilitated our efforts to increase foreign investment here. According to observers in various countries, the Prime Minister's visit was a great success. From our point of view, his efforts are highly commendable.

Another point to be mentioned is that the Minister for Health represented our country at the United Nations 22nd General Assembly. His performance was a most remarkable one. He brought with him the liveliness of our country. The points of view he expressed won the recognition of all the countries there. Therefore, we should congratulate him on his efforts.

Finally, I wish to raise three questions. First, when are we going to establish an embassy in Indonesia? Indonesia is very near to our country, and it is our biggest customer in trade. Secondly, what is the progress made after the establishment of ASEAN? What efforts have we made in this direction? Thirdly, what sort of benefits can we derive from ASEAN? I wish the Minister can give me a reply to these questions.

The Chairman (Mr Lim Cheng Lock): Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here. Mr Chow Chiok Hock.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock: (In Mandarin): Sir, I only wish to make a suggestion. In the allocation of posts, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and his officials should emphasise on economic development. The reason is this. The Foreign Affairs Ministry is closely associated with other countries and, therefore, the officials of this Ministry should receive very vigorous training, especially in international affairs and politics. They should pay close attention to international affairs.

I understand an incident happened in the Foreign Affairs Ministry in October this year about a Japanese diplomat. A foreign correspondent made a phone call to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and asked whether it had anything to say about this Japanese diplomat. An official of the Ministry asked. "Who is this Japanese diplomat?" He did not know anything about this diplomat.

7.15 p.m.

He was made a laughing stock. As he was an official in the Ministry, he should have been well versed with diplomatic figures.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

7.16 p.m.

Mr Chow Chiok Hock: The next point is that officials sent abroad should thoroughly understand the foreign policy of our country and at the same time should be able to publicise the fact that our country has a harmonious multi-racial society so that more tourists will be attracted to our country. They should also be upright and learned. Their selection should be based on these qualities.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have two points to make on our foreign policy. The first is that we should have more foreign markets to ensure our economic development. On the whole, our non-aligned foreign policy has won the approval of many countries. This is something that we should be proud of. We have to be alert all the time in order to promote international trade. I think this is very important because Singapore, as an independent country, cannot allow itself to be made use of by international forces. The strength of our people should not be made use of by other countries. I hope that our foreign policy will promote economic co-operation with other countries in South-east Asia in order to raise our standard of living. Some countries make use of international forces to promote trade. This is a short-term policy as finally these countries in fact resort to economic invasion.

I think we should promote regional co-operation with other countries in South-east Asia on the basis of mutual benefit, In this way, we can stop Communism from spreading. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs can make efforts in this direction.

Mr Speaker, Sir, as far as I know, the majority of Ambassadors abroad are males. I think the Minister for Foreign Affairs should look around for suitable female candidates to become Ambassadresses because I feel that they are more adept as far as diplomacy is concerned and perhaps they can bring more benefits to our country. If at the moment we do not have suitable candidates, I think the Government should send some women with adequate intelligence to be trained overseas so that they can be appointed as Ambassadresses in various countries in future.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker. Sir, several Members have spoken on foreign policy. I would like to take up one point. I see that with the establishment of our so many overseas missions, only the High Commission in London has a Trade Commissioner. As far as I can remember, the Trade Commissioner's Office in London was set up long before the High Commission was set up. As I said yesterday, trade may not be a provider of employment in our economy. However, I am of the opinion that trade is still a vital factor in our economy. In this respect. I would like to suggest to the Minister for Foreign Affairs that Trade Secretaries be appointed to overseas missions so that they can help to promote trade between Singapore and the many countries in which we have such missions.

Mr Rajaratnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not disagree with most of what has been said except to clarify some queries raised by some hon. Members. One is with regard to Japan. One hon. Member felt that the system of priorities has not been as it should have been. Perhaps I should explain that sometimes priorities are decided not by an objective standard of priorities but in terms of the persons available, A man for such an important post as Commissioner in Japan will have to be a man of high calibre. There were one or two other places which were equally important, like New York and London, and therefore we had to leave this post vacant not because of anything else but because we could not find a man of appropriate calibre to be sent there, In fact, we found one but, as I said earlier, unfortunately, he died. We could not fill the post and we had to look around, I quite agree that Japan is just as important to us as any of the missions that we have established. It is a matter of waiting for the right person, a person appropriate to Japan. Obviously, a person who goes to Japan must be well versed in trade and must be as sharp as the Japanese in matters of commerce, trade and industry. If there are such people, they are already well established in business concerns of their own and they are not necessarily going to enter the diplomatic service.

Anyway, Sir, I would just like to clarify that sometimes the systems of priorities are determined more by other factors than by just giving importance to any particular mission.

With regard to Indonesia -I think this point was raised by the Member for Sembawang -we have a Trade Liaison Office there. Here again, we are looking for an appropriate man to head this rather important mission which involves both economic and commercial knowledge as well as political perception in this part of the world. So we have to wait until such time as such a person is available -the Indonesians themselves are equally anxious to find a suitable man -to take this job as Ambassador in Indonesia. We are not definitely in the habit of setting up missions for the sake of setting up missions. We would rather not establish a mission if we are satisfied that we have not got the right personnel to go with it.

With regard to ASEAN, I do not want to launch into a long lecture because I have already made a statement in Parliament as to what it is all about, except to say that since then the Standing Committee which was established has met, I think, twice. At least, they are supposed to have met last month. I think it has been postponed to January to consider certain specific schemes -I hope seriously -so that by the time the next ministerial conference takes place, we will have something very tangible to agree upon.

I also agree with the Member for Punggol that we should set up Trade Secretaries, Trade Offices or Trade Representatives. If he had listened to the Minister for Finance, he would have heard that the Minister did indicate that this year we intend to establish a number of Trade Offices or Trade Representatives. In fact, we already have them in the United States and Hong Kong and we intend to establish a few such offices in other parts of Europe. But here again, it is a matter of finding the right person, because a very good businessman is not going to give up a very lucrative business especially at this time in Singapore. If the Member for Punggol has any bright, honest or upright persons in mind, we will certainly be prepared to consider any suggestions with regard to potential Trade Representatives.

I agree with the Member for Delta that it would be a very good thing if we could have female diplomats. I think it will make my job much easier, because not only do I have difficulties with male diplomats but I think that male diplomats do have difficulties with some of the diplomats in the countries to which they are assigned. I am quite sure that female diplomats will have that extra touch which may be able to influence countries to be more favourably disposed toward us than if they had to contend with male diplomats and High Commissioners. However, the difficulty is that very few ladies in the Republic of Singapore seem to be attracted by foreign service, We have solicited applications from potential lady diplomats and so far the response has been poor. There was one case where the lady was highly suitable for the diplomatic career. I think she was chosen, but after a while she wrote back to say that she had changed her mind. I am not quite sure whether other interests had developed in between her being appointed and her being sent away. But as far as our policy is concerned, everybody who has the capability and the necessary qualities, regardless of whether he is a male or a female, will be considered and accepted by the Foreign Office.

Mr Tang See Chim: I wish to withdraw the amendment, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.30 p.m.

The sum of $7,395,530 for Head 0501 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: Mr Ong, I believe you have a motion?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Yes, Sir.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House,