1ST JANUARY, 1969, TO 31ST MARCH, 1970

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [4th Allotted Day].

Resumption of debate on Question (17th December, 1968),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub,head 1001." [Madam Chan Choy Siong].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

3.14 p.m.

Head 0901 -

The Chairman: The Question is,

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001."

The amendment was moved by Madam Chan Choy Siong. Mr Rodrigo had the floor yesterday. Mr Rodrigo.

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, yesterday I outlined a situation which may not inconveniently persuade our populace to infer that the constitutional protection that a person may not be kept in custody by the police for more than 24 hours without bringing him before the court is being evaded by the apprehension of persons under the detention laws, namely, the Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Ordinance, under which a person apprehended may be kept in custody for more than 24 hours. Admittedly this occurs after certain precautions have been taken.

3.15 p.m.

Sir, in reply to a question which I submitted to the Minister for oral answer, I learned that 1,408 persons had been arrested for the period 1st January, 1967, to 30th June, 1968, of whom as many as 438 persons were subsequently charged in court.

Sir, the detention laws provide that a police officer may, without warrant, arrest and detain a person pending inquiry in respect of whom he has reason to believe that there are grounds which would justify the detention of such person under a certain section in the Ordinance. The grounds which would justify the detention of such a person would be the person's association with activities of a criminal nature and that the person's detention is in the interest of public safety, peace and good order. In other words, in my view, before this exceptional law is enforced, the police authorities would first have sufficient recorded information that the person has been involved in criminal activities for a span of time, because the word "association" certainly implies a prolonged association with such type of activities. Secondly, that the police have insufficient evidence to support the charge before the court, and that is why the person is apprehended for detention. If that is so, and if the police authorities have complied with these requirements, why do they find it convenient to charge the person in court a few days after his apprehension?

Sir, if the apprehension of a person under the detention laws is to appear credible to the populace, then it must demonstrate a deliberateness which comes after a careful and responsible assessment of the person's danger to society. But the populace will not see this credibility if persons are apprehended with ease and a few days later charged in court, especially if the figures revealed that as many as 396 persons out of 420 charged in court pleaded guilty. A lot of unpleasant questions arise, Sir. Would these persons have pleaded guilty if they in fact had been apprehended under the laws of the country which guaranteed their being in custody for only 24 hours? Or is it because of their having been in custody for more than 24 hours - for three, four, five or six days - which provided them with an opportunity for introspection and repentance and, therefore, they pleaded guilty?

Sir, the point of all these observations is simply this. There are 58 of us here in this Chamber, all belonging to the People's Action Party. That being the case, in my view, I say that it is absolutely imperative that this Government give the people no reason - none at all - at any time to suspect that it is prepared to ignore constitutionalism or that it can afford to dispense with the fundamental rights of the individual.

Mr Low Guan Onn (River Valley): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to associate myself with the points raised by the Member for Delta yesterday evening before the House adjourned. I do not want to understate the importance of building our nation's defence capability in the short time available before the British military withdrawal to secure our nation's independence and sovereignty. But, at the same time, we must bear in mind that with the phased withdrawal of the British military forces within a period of three years, the Republic will have lost an income from outside sources to the tune of $400 million per year, totalling $1,200 million by the end of 1971. This gigantic loss of foreign exchange will create huge problems in unemployment and loss of income to a great many of our citizens. To offset this loss, we must generate greater economic growth at the same time. With political stability and good industrial relations created by the recent passage' of the Employment Bill in this House, we have already attracted many overseas investors. As stated by the Finance Minister, they are already committed to put their capital in our Republic to set up industries which are mainly export-oriented. But the greatest drawback to the realisation and fruition of these export-oriented industries, which can employ many thousands of workers, is the dearth of trained manpower at professional, technician and craft levels, and our inability to supply these trained men at this time.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to draw the attention of the Minister for Defence to the fact that his Ministry has called up every graduate within the age group from the three levels of technical education to join national service as soon as they have passed out from the institutions. The Minister will agree that the calling up of these graduates to undergo national service training is a great wastage of trained manpower which, although non-productive, is vitally essential. If these graduates are called up as soon as they pass out, they will lose much of the theoretical and academic knowledge which they have acquired in their three or four years of education in the higher institutions of learning after two years of national service.

I fully endorse the Government's policy that all able-bodied young men of all types of training and educational standards within the age group should be trained and called up for national service. But our Government must make a more pragmatic approach to the problem of defence and economic growth as they are complementary to each other in our national survival. We must strike a balance. In other words, a certain percentage of the technical graduates at the three levels of training should be released to build up the industries during the three critical years, so that by the end of 1971 these industries will be viable and will be able to expand to provide more job opport unities for released national service men and school-leavers.

I have here the Singapore Polytechnic Annual Report for 1967-1968. If you turn to page 39, you will find that during the years 1961 to 1968, we produced only 502 professional graduates, 1,043 technician graduates, and 520 craft graduates. In other words -

The Chairman: Order. Mr Low, I find it difficult to see how what you are saying is relevant to this head.

Mr Low Guan Onn: I am coming to this question now.

The Chairman: Please get to it quickly, because I think we are going to run against time before very long.

Mr Low Guan Onn: In other words, the ratio of professional to technician level is only one to two graduates, and the ratio of technician to craft level is two to one graduate. This is a ridiculous situation when we talk of industrialisalion. In view of the foregoing situation facing Singapore today, I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider relaxing his present policy, i.e., whether he would allow graduates of technical institutions within the age group who can get employment to remain at their jobs but to do part-time instead of full-time national service training, as some of these graduates are the sole breadwinners of their family.

The Minister for Defence (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, before taking up the issues which were raised by Members yesterday and today, may I take the opportunity to touch briefly on one item which appears in the Budget Estimates under both the Ministry of Communications and the Ministry of Defence, namely, the subject of good conduct allowance. I would like tu congratulate the Member for Serangoon Gardens on having very arduously gone through this thick book of Estimates to find and draw attention to this item which has appeared year in and year out in the past without any Member making any reference to it. We all agree with him that as civil servants, and more so as policemen who are supposed to uphold law and order in this country, they are expected to show good conduct and, having conducted themselves well, there is no reason why they should be paid an allowance over and above what they should normally get. However, I am glad to inform this House that in time this item will disappear. I have been delving into the historical past to find out the whys and wherefores of this allowance being paid, but I regret to report that I have not been able to find any reason for it at all, except that, in looking through the files, I discovered that the allowance is an incentive for policemen not to sleep at their posts! I think the present lot of policemen need no incentive to stay awake at their posts. I am glad to report that since 1965 we have not been paying this allowance at all. As the years go by, the provision for this allowance will be less and less, and ultimately there will be none.

Since I have referred to the Member for Serangoon Gardens, I may as well take up the issue which he raised yesterday and again today. His fear is that the constitutional rights of the citizens of Singapore will not be protected because we are abusing the powers that we have under the special detention laws to detain people for more than 24 hours and then bring them to court. I think every Member in this House is as zealous as he is to see that we protect the constitutional rights of our citizens. I dare not say that the powers given under the special detention laws have not been abused. Perhaps in their zest to rid this country of undesirable elements, officers in the police force may have made use of these powers.

3.30 p.m.

But I can assure the Member that every precaution has been and will be taken to see that advantage is not taken of the special detention laws.

The Member seems to impute that 438 persons were charged after detention of 24 hours. I doubt that very much, Sir. Probably a majority of them were charged within 24 hours. But I do wish to assure him and the House that I will take every precaution to see that advantage is not taken of the special powers under the detention laws.

Coming to the Member for Mount-batten who wants to know why there is no provision under the Ministry of the Interior and Defence to celebrate our 150th anniversary next year, all I can say is that the planning and co-ordination for the celebration of this anniversary come under the Ministry of Culture. That is why there is no provision under my Ministry.

The Member for Sembawang claims that members of the Vigilante Corps are given only one suit of uniform each. I wish to correct him. They are given two suits of uniform. They are not given transport allowance. But they can claim whatever money they spent on transport from the Commandant of the Vigilante Corps.

The Member for Delta asked four questions. I can say that she is in very good company indeed when she wants to know how long the Australians are staying here. I think all of us want to know that. I would answer the question if I could, and things would be made much easier for us because we could then plan our defence with more precision.

The Member's other question is: can we fill the vacuum left by the British military withdrawal? I do not believe any nation in Southeast Asia can fill the vacuum left by the British. In fact, I feel the British have probably calculated that they cannot hold their position in Southeast Asia as well as they could before, and that is one of the reasons why they are leaving. As regards the filling of the vacuum, we are building our armed forces in order to fulfil our share in trying to fill that vacuum, and that vacuum can only be filled either by a major power or by all the nations in Southeast Asia, extending as far as Australia and New Zealand, working together in concert for the security of this region. We are taking every step to prepare ourselves in order to play our part when the time comes when all these nations can work together for peace and stability in this area.

The Member also asked whether there is any possibility of lowering the age of national conscripts. In the foreseeable future, Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think there is a likelihood of our lowering the age of national conscripts. I say "in the foreseeable future", but if anything untoward happens, then we have got to find ways and means of increasing our manpower.

The Member for Delta also wants to know whether the women's defence force are working under the same conditions as the men. I do not know what she means by working under the same conditions. They are not given the same kind of training physically. Our men conscripts have got to go through a very strenuous course of basic training which taxes them mentally and physically to the utmost. I do not think we can equate women with men here. Therefore, women are not given this training. But as regards pay, where they do the same kind of work we consider them equal and have given them equal pay.

The Member for River Valley alleges that the dearth of manpower to help us in our economic growth is due to the national call-up. I cannot agree with him. He says that technical graduates of the Polytechnic and the University have been called up by my Ministry. If it had been so, my men and I would not be running around today trying to find technical men to man the positions that we have. Only graduates who have graduated since 1967 have been called up. So the figures he mentioned of 502 professional men and 1,043 technicians - I did not catch how many craftsmen there were - the majority of them are in industry.

As regards reserving a proportion of these graduates to help in our industrial growth, I cannot promise him that because we are at the very outset of our build-up. Here again it is a question of priority - economic growth or defence capability. I would like Members to think that without this defence build-up, there may come a time when all the economic growth in the world will not stand us in good stead, because we would be captured and it would be too late to regret that we should have given priority to our defence build-up first.

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has not answered one of my questions. I said that the salary paid to members of the women's defence force is different from that paid to the men serving in the armed forces. I understand that when women were called up by the Ministry of Defence, there was a stipulation that they would be given the same pay as the men serving in the armed forces and that their training may bc different. I am raising this point because a few members of the women's defence force have complained to me of this anomaly.

I would also like to ask the Minister for Defence whether the strength of the women's defence force will be increased.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I said that women are paid the same salary as the men if they are doing the same kind of work. So there is no discrimination in my Ministry between men and women on the question of salary.

As regards an increase in the strength of the women's defence force, of course, we will recruit more members for the women's defence force if there is a need to. I think there is a need because we are expanding very fast. We have not reached our peak yet.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head [1901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1251.

Sir, our implementation of national service has been quite successful. It is mainly due to the support and cooperation of our people because they know that patriotism and defence of the country are their bounden duties. But I wish to raise certain complaints about the Central Manpower Base. I have recently received complaints from parents who complained that the efficiency of this office was very poor. They also said that the officials of this office adopted a bad attitude towards their work. For instance, conscripts who went to register at the office had to wait from 8 a.m, to 12 noon before they were called up for actual registration. This is undeniably too long a time to expect the boys to get registered. I would like the Minister to urge the office to improve the system of registration, if there is no time, then another day should be allotted to the youths to be registered.

Another point is about parents accompanying their children to get registered. We all know that women are very concerned with their children. National service was introduced only recently in Singapore. Before this, the people did not know what national service was all about. When they went to the office, the officials there did not welcome them. This kind of attitude is not right. I feel that the people need co-operation from the officers concerned so that they may have a favourable impression of national service, our Government, our political institutions, and our country as well. I feel that when parents bring their children along to get registered at the National Service Office, they should be well treated. A waiting room should be provided for them. At the moment, they are all standing around. I hope the Minister can consider my points.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, for the information of Members, I would like to say that the procedure of registration takes quite some time, largely because there are a lot of tests to go through and a lot of information to be sought from conscripts. I will briefly give the procedure that a national conscript is expected to go through and the time taken. There are several stages.

3.45 p.m.

The first is documentation. This requires about 40 minutes per person. After this, there is an aptitude test which takes one and a half hours per person. This aptitude test is to find Out what the national conscript is fitted for technical, combat or for the various vocations that we have in the armed forces. Then there is a language proficiency test and a personal interview which require about 20 minutes per person. Therefore, all in all, it takes about two and a half hours for each conscript. So it is expected that every conscript who presents himself for registration has to wait quite some time.

On the average, 400 people are called up a day. When we first started conscription and call-up, the parents who accompanied these youths were allowed into the camp, but after some experience of it we found that it delayed the interview and the registration itself because of the limited space. Hence, parents are now not allowed inside the camp. Unfortunately, we do not have sufficient space to provide places for these parents to sit. We are trying to find whether we can make use of the canteen of the People's Association, which is situated nearby, for the parents to wait for their children.

I myself do not understand what the Member meant when he said that the staff of the Central Manpower Base have not treated the mothers well. Does he mean that they do not allow the mothers to accompany their children when they go through these stages of interview, or does he mean that they were asked to go away? Can he clarify that point?

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, regarding this point, the parents who accompanied their children to the registration centre found that the officials did not like them to go near the office because there were too many people in the office. The parents were not given places to sit and wait. In other words, the attitude of the officials is that parents are not welcome to the centre. Perhaps there is insufficient space because every day 400 youths have to be registered and including the parents who accompany their children, it will come to 700 or 800 persons.

I would therefore like the Minister to look into this matter and, if possible, to improve the situation by providing facilities for the parents to wait for their children.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, the presence of parents will interfere with the registration and, furthermore, there is a limitation of space. Of course, we are trying to see whether we can provide waiting space for the parents. But I believe, Sir, if we go to the secondary schools where the youths are registered - they are much younger than those who are being called up we do not find parents holding their sons' hands when they go for registration. I expect very soon that parents will treat their children in the same way as those being registered in the schools and we will not have parents holding their children's hands when they go for registration. While trying to make it as comfortable as possible for those parents who still have doubts whether their children have grown up or not, I think it is a question of time before the necessity for providing waiting space for parents does not arise.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not agree with what the Minister has said, because if there are complaints there must be problems involved. If problems arise, the Minister must try to solve them. We can always reduce the number of youths to be registered from 400 to 300 per day and the time for waiting will be shortened.

It is only natural that parents accompany their children to the registration centre. Even the Minister will accompany his son to the centre for registration.

Mr Lim Kim San: The translation of the Member's speech did not come through quite well. However, I have already indicated that we will try to make those parents who are at present accompanying their children to the registration centre as comfortable as possible. But it is my considered opinion that very soon there will be no more parents accompanying their children there. I can assure the Member for Sembawang that when my son is conscripted, his mother will not accompany him to the registration centre.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment because the Minister has assured me that he will take steps to look into this matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

I have some criticisms to make of the behaviour of some of our police officers. When they deal with an emergency case, they are rather slow in their work. When an emergency case occurs, they merely go to the spot and take a look at it only. When they arrive at the spot, the evildoers have already escaped. They are too slow to rise to the occasion. Although they are there in full force, they are still unable to arrest the culprits. When a police patrol car is summoned, it does not go to the spot in time. Is it because they do not know the route to the scene of the incident or the locality of the incident? I do not think this is possible.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

3.55 p.m.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): Another point is that when members of the public summon a police patrol car, the car, while on its way, will sound its siren. I think this is unnecessary because the sound of the siren will warn the culprits who will then try to escape. If the patrol car sounds the siren in order to warn on-coming traffic, I would suggest a special type of light be installed in it, and whenever it signals this light, road users will then make way for it.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, there are some members of the police force, especially those in the lower ranks, who still adopt the colonial attitude. One night I went to a police station to speak on behalf of a resident who broke certain traffic rules. The police officers on duty seemed to be very rude to members of public. They should have been courteous to them, otherwise the public will have a bad impression of our police force.

The next point is about a person who was detained by the police for eight hours because they wanted him to act as a witness and to co-operate with them. After having been detained for so many hours and also because he was feeling hungry, do you think he would cooperate with the police? I feel that the police should be polite and courteous to the public. They should be friendly, dedicated and kind. I believe this is also the aim of the Government.

4.00 p.m.

It is not correct for me to criticise the police force. Perhaps the people will say that the Member for Paya Lebar is not satisfied with anything. Now let me give credit where it is due to the police force. I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the plight of the bereaved families of those police officers who have sacrificed their lives in the course of their duties. I wonder whether any compensation or pension is given to the bereaved families.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to touch on one subject.

The Member for Paya Lebar has said that the policemen are proud but I do not agree with him. As far as I am aware, they are not arrogant at all. Some officers in charge of police stations are good, but others are not so. For example, last Saturday at 1.00 p.m, a resident of my constituency came to me and said that four of his sons had been arrested by the police. Their ages were 27, 25, 21 and 17 years. The youngest child was still schooling. I therefore went with the father to the police station. The officer in charge, Mr Chin, was out at the time. It was about 3.00 p.m., or 4.00 p.m. I did not know that the 'four sons had been arrested by Mr Chin. He was 'arrogant. I do not know why. I cannot say whether he recognised me or not. His colleagues introduced -me to him' as the Member for Ulu Pandan. His manners were very, very arrogant indeed. He did not even smile. He treated me as if I were a culprit. This attitude on the part of such a high-ranking officer is meaningless. Even a Superintendent of Police does not behave like this. What is the use of employing such an officer who ill-treats the people? He arrested the four brothers with the use of force. He threatened the youngest boy with a gun and knife to answer his question, "Tell me whether you have associated with bad people." I-Ic made it look as if he was going to shoot the boy. This is very bad. I-low can such a thing be done? A police station is not a court. If the boy did not commit any offence, he should have been released. He should not have been threatened with a gun. Ours is a democratic country. Such a Government servant is described by the Chinese as despotic and dictatorial. Police officers who are impolite to Members of Parliament are bad. I dare say that our Government will be toppled as a result of the attitude of such Government servants. Therefore, I hope the Minister will investigate the matter and see what kind of a person that officer is.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

4.08 p.m.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, two Members have mentioned specific cases where they met with rudeness from the police force. I wish they had brought them to my attention earlier. They could have written to me giving the time, date and place of the incident, and I could have made the necessary inquiries, because all along we have asked our police to be courteous and polite to the public. I am glad that the Member for Paya Lebar thinks that only a minority of the police force are acting in this way. Nevertheless, it is our duty to weed them out. I will be glad to receive more detailed information so that I can take appropriate action.

The Member for Paya Lebar complained about the slowness of the police to appear at the scene of a crime. Here again, I think it is a general statement, and if specific instances can be given, I will go into the whys and wherefores. The Member - in fact, all of us -would like the police, when called, to arrive at the scene of a crime as quickly as possible. On the other hand, he suggested that they should not use their car horns to get a clear way through the traffic. I am grateful for his suggestion that lights can be used to alert the road users that the police are on duty or in a hurry to go somewhere. But as I am not a specialist, I do not know whether lights in the daytime will have the desired effect of alerting the cars in front to make way for the police. Anyway, I am grateful for his suggestion, but the best way that we know of clearing the traffic is for the police to sound their horns. If the Member can pinpoint any incident where the police arrived one hour after they had received a call, I will look into it. As he knows, sometimes the traffic in Singapore is quite congested and it takes some considerable time to get from one place to another.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): The Minister has said that I should have reported the matter to him. I feel that is not as good as when I make a report to this House because the people will learn about it.

The Chairman: I think the Minister is more concerned with remedying the situation than with getting the people to learn about it.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, we all know that the police are the eyes of the people. They have to protect us, look after our country and maintain law and order. They are the protectors of our rights. Besides the army, the police should look after our personal safety and property. However, since the P.A.P, came to power, the standard of conduct and efficiency of the police has improved. It is possible that there is still a minority in the police force who adopt the colonial attitude. This should be put right. There are many officers who are well-mannered and are doing well in their jobs. But there are still some flaws 'which need to be corrected so that the police can render good service which is expected of them.

There is one aspect of the police force on which I would like to touch. We learn from the press that sometimes the police resort to the use of their pistols when carrying out their duties. There have been reported cases of the loss of pistols as a result of a quarrel over some women and some people were murdered, and so on. This is not an isolated incident. This kind of news appears in the press now and then. As a result, people form the impression that the police are careless with their weapons. There is a doubt in the minds of the people whether the police can really look after their safety.

4.15 p.m.

I have also learned that there are many restaurants and bars which have recently been set up by some of our police officers, though not under their actual names. But, in actual fact, they are the sponsors of these restaurants and bars where many crimes are committed. This is an open secret to many people. I feel that this is bad for the good reputation of the police force and calls for an investigation.

Another point is that most of our secondary school pupils have organised a police cadet corps. Police officers have also been sent to the schools to train the students. In order to improve the standards of our police, I wonder whether the Minister is prepared to consider police cadets who have graduated from schools and recruit them direct into the police force. These police cadets have already had basic training and have acquired skill in police duties. As such, we do not have to recruit other people who have not been so trained, and thus incur additional expenditure. In this way, we can also raise the standards of the police.

Mr Lim Kim San: The Member for Delta alleges that a large number o police personnel are careless in the handling of their weapons. I do not know how many cases she has read in the papers. But whenever these cases are known, disciplinary action has been taken.

She also alleges that it is common knowledge that police officers have shares in businesses, especially bars. Police regulations do not allow any police officer to have any interest in any business which may prejudice his work. Though it is common knowledge to her, I have not received any complaint about that. Here again, if she can give specific complaints, we will look into them.

Of course, students who have been members of the school police cadet corps will be given preference when they come for recruitment into the police force. There is no doubt about that.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): The Minister has asked me just now to provide details of the the cases that I have brought up. as I recall it, on 31st August this year, at about 7.00 p.m., members of the Barisan Sosialis gathered at a theatre in Paya Lebar Road. Sombody rang me up about the matter, and I asked him to ring up 999 since the Barisan Sosialis were creating some incidents there. In the end I myself rang up 999. This was just after I had left school. I then took my supper. After I had finished my supper, the police had still not yet come. When they actually arrived at the P.A.P. branch in Paya Lebar, they behaved as though they would like me to be polite to them.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, as I say, I would like Members to forward me the details and I will make the necessary investigation.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): In view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock (Kampong Kapor): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2007.

Mr Speaker. Sir, this item is in respect of telephones in M.I.D, headquarters. I wish to ask the Minister whether he is aware that there are not enough lines in the telephone exchange of the M.I.D. From experience I find that sometimes it takes almost half a day to get a call through to his Ministry because of over-loading at the telephone exchange. M.I.D, being an important Ministry, I feel that this matter should be drawn to his attention so that the situation can be improved.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I agree very much with what has been said by the Member for Kampong Kapor. Sometimes I myself have rung up the Ministry of Defence. Almost half an hour would elapse before I could get the call through. I hope the Minister will expedite action to improve the position.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I agree that it is quite difficult to get through a call to my Ministry because we have a very limited number of lines. I wish we could increase the number of lines. But due to technical difficulties it is riot possible to do so. We are in close consultation with the Singapore Tele- phone Board to see whether we can remedy the situation. I would like to' be in a position to be able to receive phone calls immediately from the Mem ber for Sembawang or the Member for Paya Lebar so that I myself can accompany the police car wherever it goes.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2009.

Sir, this item concerns the Vigilante Corps and the expenditure allotted for it. Some national service youths have been absorbed into the Vigilante Corps. It has now become a force supplementing the work of the police. They have contributed much by way of maintaining law and order in our country. Our purpose in getting national servicemen into the Vigilante Corps is to inculcate in them a spirit of national consciousness and service to the people. Since the past few weeks, a number of Vigilante Corps members have completed their training. They have graduated. So far they have not been sent to serve in the various community centres. The Vigilante Corps posts are still being manned by volunteers. I would like to ask the Minister whether these well-trained Vigilante Corps members who are national servicemen could be sent to serve in the various community centres. However, there are many community centres which do not have Vigilante Corps posts. I wonder whether the Vigilante Corps members could set up a post in every community centre.

Can the Minister also tell the House how many Vigilante Corps training centres there are for the training of national service personnel and where they are situated?

Finally, I would like to ask a very important question. I wonder whether the Government can provide these national servicemen serving as Vigilante Corps members with work as is now being provided for full-time national servicemen.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker. Sir, unfortunately for the Member for Mountbatten, the answer to all his queries is no. He must understand that the present organisation of the Vigilante Corps is entirely different from that of the Vigilante Corps that we had during the Indonesian confrontation. At that time we had volunteers who came forward to help us patrol the beaches and stand guard against subversive elements. But at the moment the Vigilante Corps takes in young conscripts and we have an entirely different kind of programme for these people. Therefore, though they have completed their basic training and have passed out, it is not the intention of my Ministry to post these people to the various community centres. Security, that is, the patrolling and manning of beaches, will be undertaken by the police and the Special Constabulary. The Vigilante Corps has other objectives which I need not go into detail here.

For security reasons, it is not the policy of my Ministry to make known the number of training centres we have and where they are. But if any Member of the House is really interested to know these and want more details, he can approach me and I will give him the information in private. But under no circumstances must Members divulge the number of training centres and where they are situated and similarly also the number of national servicemen we have trained as Vigilante Corps members. It is not the policy of my Ministry to divulge these figures.

The Government is not willing to guarantee work for national servicemen in the Vigilante Corps as it does for those who serve full-time military service in the army. We feel that national servicemen who serve two full years in the army have been deprived of the opportunity of looking for work during the two years they are in service, whereas Vigilante Corps members and the Special Constabulary Corps members spend only part of their time in training and, therefore, they could still be working while they are being trained.

4.30 p.m.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: (In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker. Sir, due to shortage of time, I am not moving amendment (6)*. I would now like to move amendment (7) . Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $100+.

• Amendment (6) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3170.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to ask the Minister to pay attention to two matters. Perhaps Members are aware that the Singapore Armed Forces Training Institute is situated in my constituency. In Jurong, there is also a camp of the Singapore Infantry Regiment. It appears that my constituency has become a training ground for military personnel. Sir, I do not object to the training of military personnel in my constituency. I realise that troops must be trained in military capability because I am a member of the People's Defence Force.

The Chairman: Mr Ho, we are seven minutes short of "guillotine" time and I would ask you to mention the two points very quickly so that we can get a reply from the Minister before debate is curtailed under Standing Orders.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am coming to the point very soon. Owing to the frequency of exercises, 3-ton military trucks using the good roads in my constituency have spoilt them. These trucks are sturdy and therefore they are not damaged. But when the roads are spoilt, the people are inconvenienced. Requests have been made to the Ministry of National Development to repair the roads, but usually it takes some time before they are re paired. I would like to ask the Minister whether a sum of money could be allotted under his Ministry for the repair of roads which have been damaged by military trucks. Perhaps he can also direct the troops to repair the roads in order to improve the relationship between the troops and the rural residents.

The second point is that when the troops are on an exercise some of them steal rambutans and other fruits belonging to the rural folk. This usually hap pens at night. This should be stopped, otherwise it will create bad feeling among the rural folk and the good relationship between the troops and the people will deteriorate. I hope the Minister will look into this matter and make the troops realise that they should not do such a thing.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker. Sir, perhaps I should inform Members of the House that we encourage commu nity service in the armed forces as much as possible and some of our battalions have adopted orphan homes and community centres. If my memory serves me right, the last group of cadets before they were given commissions as officers did participate in some road construction. Where members of the M.I.D, are responsible for spoiling some of the roads, I think it will not be difficult at all for them to repair these roads where-ever possible.

As regards stealing of rambutans by the troops at night while under training, I have given instructions that incidents of this nature should not be repeated. But, as you know, our youths are physically fit, robust and high-spirited. So one or two incidents of this nature are expected. Anyway, I do not believe it is done on an organised scale. It is more out of mischief than for any benefit which they get. I have given instructions that these incidents should not be repeated. The troops should keep' good relationship with members of the public. With the training given. I can expect them to keep law and order even while they are on training under difficult circumstances.

The Chairman: Mr Ho, Madam Chan has indicated that she is not speaking. Are you withdrawing the amendment?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $249,896,060 for Head 0901 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0902 -

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0902 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

• The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr P. Govindaswamy, Madam Chan Choy Siong, and Mr Sim Boon Woo.

Sir, I seek your leave to range over the Registry of Marriages if I may and I will not move the amendment+ thereunder because I now wish to raise an issue which is connected with the Registry of Marriages.

• The amendment reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1121.

The Chairman: The Minister for Defence is not answerable for the Registry of Marriages. But if what you say is ancillary to what you are raising on Immigration, then please proceed.

Mr Rodrigo: Yes, Sir. The answer is substantially to be given by the Minister for Defence.

Sir, basically there is an absence of co-ordination between the Immigration Department and the Registry of Marriages. In a way, it touches a matter of the heart. We may have a male non-citizen, a foreigner, in our country for short periods of stay and the more selective of our charming females may decide to tie the matrimonial knot with such a male non-citizen. The result of it is that our female citizen makes an application to the Registry of Marriages for the issue of the necessary licence and the Registrar of Marriages appears to issue it without any inhibitions. Of course, solemnisation of the marriage takes place and the two are married. Then an application is made to the Immigration authorities for residence of the husband of our female citizen who is told - also without inhibitions - "Very sorry. Residence in Singapore cannot be given to him." Of course, this would necessitate a separation between husband and wife.

However much it appears that efforts have been made in the past by our female citizen to get her non-citizen husband into Singapore for permanent residence, she is told that that, unfortunately, is not possible because the law is so. I tend to believe that if co-ordination had existed between the two departments, perhaps the Registrar of Marriages might not be issuing licences of marriage in such circumstances which do create hardship. I do not know what is the situation now and I would be obliged if the Minister could inform the House whether this sort of practice has ceased and licences for such marriages are no longer issued by the Registrar of Marriages.

It is also opportune, Mr Speaker, Sir, to raise a question under this subhead if the Minister cares to answer it, because I wonder whether it is really relevant to this subject; that is, the rationale behind the law offering a non-citizen female who happens to marry one of our male citizens entitlement to residence in this country. What is the reason behind this discrimination? On the one hand, we allow a non-citizen female who is married to one of our male citizens residence in the country. On the other hand, we do not grant residence to a male non-citizen who marries one of our female citizens. There might be a rational explanation for this. I do not know. But if the Minister chooses to answer, I think this could be an opportune time to do so.

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy is not here. Madam Chan is not speaking. Mr Sim Boon Woo.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am doubtful when the Member for Serangoon Gardens said that in the case of a male citizen of Singapore who marries a non-citizen from another country, the wife can reside permanently in Singapore. I have come across several cases during my meet-the-people sessions of male Singapore citizens who got married in Johore and have children born in Singapore. The wife was sent back to Johore. When the husband applied for permanent residence for the wife, he was told that the application was refused on the ground that he could not support his wife.

4.45 p.m.

Sir, I would like the Minister to make this point a little bit clearer so that we do not have any difficulties in dealing with the public.

I also wish to refer to the immigration check-point at the Woodlands end of the causeway. The process of checking passports should be speeded up. I can understand that sometimes delays are caused when checking non-Singapore passports but, with Singapore passports which are not stamped, a few seconds should be enough. Sir, I think you will agree with me that if you go to the satay club in Johore Bahru and you come back during the weekend you will experience the same thing.

I shall be grateful if the Minister can look into ways and means of reducing the time taken to check Singapore passports.

Mr P. Selvadurai (Bukit Panjang): Mr Speaker, Sir, I just want to give two more illustrations on this matter. There may, on principle, be a difference between a female citizen of Singapore getting married to a male foreigner and a male citizen of Singapore getting married to a female foreigner. So far as the law is concerned, a girl who gets married to a foreigner will have to follow the domicile of the foreigner and there are a number of legal consequences that follow from this fact. But I am much more concerned with a male Singapore citizen getting married to a female foreigner who is not allowed to bring his wife into Singapore. The Immigration Department steps in and says that she cannot be allowed the necessary permits.

Sir, a much more harassing situation is this. It has, in fact, happened in Singapore and I have come across this case personally. A female Singapore citizen got married to a teacher in the Federation who was a Federal citizen. She went to the Federation to stay with him and in the process had two children. Unfortunately, her husband died in a car crash and she came back to stay with her mother because she did not have any relatives in the Federation. The Immigration Department stepped in and said that she could not bring her children in. In other words, the children could not stay in Singapore although she could. These matters must be rationalised because they are patently inhuman.

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Members who spoke before me have brought up some points of interest. I have similar issues which have to be looked into by the Immigration Department. In the course of my meetings with my constituents, dissatisfaction has been expressed with the manner in which the Immigration Department appears to operate. As the Immigration Department is only part of the portfolio of our Minister, I think this is the proper place to air some of the grievances.

The Chairman: As briefly as possible!

Mr N. Govindasamy: I will try to be as brief as possible, Sir. This refers to persons who are non-citizens but have been residents in Singapore for a number of years. Some of them have qualified for citizenship and their cases are pending approval or disapproval. Others who have not qualified due to lack of residential qualification are unable to obtain restricted passports to go across the causeway.

Sir, if these persons were born either in India or Thailand or anywhere else, they could go to the respective High Commissioner Consulates to obtain letters stating they are stateless and we would have no objection in issuing them passports. Unfortunately, the people who were born across the causeway were not given a certificate of stateless-ness by their High Commissions and we turned them away. Eventually, they will come to feel that they are prisoners in Singapore and are unable to get out even if they want to. Sir, it is easy to say that we want them to go away because they are not our responsibility but the responsibility of Malaysia. But we should not forget that they have been here for a number of years with no intention of going back and yet are unable to go across the causeway.

I hope the Minister will look into these cases which are numerous indeed.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (Tiong Bahru): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the cases mentioned by the Members who have spoken before me have also happened in my constituency. Male citizens were unable to obtain permission for their non-citizen wife to stay perman ently in Singapore. They were also asked by the Immigration Department to speed up the necessary formalities so that their wife could leave Singapore as soon as possible. I do not know whether the aim of this policy is, as with the aim of protection of our local industries, to encourage our male citizens to marry only our women citizens. In our present society, we believe in having love as the foundation of marriage. Whether we like it or not, they have already become husbands and wives. It is therefore unreasonable, from the humanitarian point of view, if we do not allow a non-citizen wife to stay in Singapore and force her to separate from her husband and her family.

Sir, there is a well-known Chinese fairy tale of a cowboy called Niu Lang and a spinner called Jze Nyu. The audience shed tears of sympathy when that fairy tale is shown on stage. This story is now being re-enacted with our own people acting as the cowboy and the spinner as the case may be. I hope the Minister can review the present immigration policy so that this tragic Chinese story will not be repeated.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, Members seem to think that I am the fly in the ointment in affairs of the heart! I would like to assure them that I encourage freedom in affairs of the heart wherever possible! This is one of the reasons why the Registrar of Marriages does not show discrimination whom a person marries so long as he gives sufficient notice and the parties concerned have lived in Singapore for more than 15 days. I do not see in what way this has got anything to do with immigration. It is a service which Singapore can render to join them in holy and legal wedlock so that they can live hap pily ever after. I do not think there is any tie-up between the Immigration Department and the Registry of Marriages. I do not think the Member for Serangoon Gardens would like the Government to determine who should marry whom and who should not marry whom. We give complete freedom here provided the couple have lived here for more than 15 days. If they want to get married, the Registry will perform the service, and good luck to them. Therefore, the question of immigration does not come in.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens also wants to know the rationale under which we decide that female non-Singapore citizens who are married to male citizens are allowed in, whereas male non-citizens who are married to women citizens are not allowed in. I do not know exactly what is the rationale, but I would say that, being an eastern country, we would like to feel that it is the man who wears the pants and, therefore, the woman takes the domicile of the man. The Member for Bukit Panjang has given the legal interpretation to it.

As regards admission of women non-citizens who are married to Singapore citizens, the law provides that they can apply for entry into Singapore. Just to let Members know that we have not been heartless, I will give the figures of applications and the number approved and rejected. In 1967, 486 applications of this nature were approved and 134 were refused; in 1968, 449 were approved and 187 were refused; from October to December 1967, 28 were approved and three were refused; January to November 1968, 668 were approved and 161 were refused. Every case is treated on its own merits, but the law covering applications of female non-citizens married to Singapore citizens comes under the Immigration Prohibition of Entry Order, 1966. Those who are interested can read it in detail. Those female non-citizens who are married to Singapore citizens and who are on a visit pass are not allowed an extension of stay because their husbands are not in a position to support them or the children whom they will bring into this world later on. That is the main reason why they are refused admission, otherwise we will not interfere with their matrimonial problems.

As regards the refusal to issue restricted passports to persons holding blue identity cards, we will issue them these passports if they can produce a certificate of statelessness. But they cannot produce this certificate of statelessness because their country of domicile is not willing to give them this certificate. Is that correct?

Mr N. Govindasamy: They will not give it.

Mr Lim Kim San: Therefore, their status is doubtful even in the minds of the country of their birth or domicile, and by issuing them with a restricted passport we have to recognise that they are our responsibility. The position has been explained that, because of the difficulties we have to face following the British military withdrawal, we do not want to create more trouble for ourselves in future by making it easy for people to come and stay here.

The Member for Changi complains that he is always held up by the customs when he goes to the satay club in Johore Bahru. I think it is not by the Immigration Department at the checkpoint. I think that is not the experience of most people. Probably his face showed that he had been doing more than eating satay! I think this is an exception rather than the rule. Next time, if he will just confine himself to eating satay, he will probably get through faster.

5.00 p.m.

Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): The Minister has said that the alien wife of a Singapore citizen will not be able to get her passport renewed if he cannot maintain her and her children. How can the Minister or the Controller of Immigration be sure that the husband cannot maintain his wife? If the wife is willing to stay with her husband, he will be able to maintain her and the children.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not quarrelling with the legalistics of the matter if that, in fact, is the rationale behind the legal discrimination. If our female citizen marries a non-citizen, she has to accept the fact that she follows the domicile of her husband. That is quite correct. I think there still exists a moral obligation at least to inform our female citizen that when she marries a non-citizen, he will not be entitled to reside in this country. I think if this situation is made known to our female applicants, it will correct the wrong impression that, as they are citizens of Singapore, their husbands are entitled to reside with them, because I think this impression is very real.

Mr N. Govindasamy: On a point of clarification, Sir. We cannot get away with by saying that we have a problem on our hands and that we do not want to have additional problems. But, as I have said, these are cases of residents who are working here and who are still here. If they were not born in the Federation, if they were born in Thailand or India, they could go to their respective Consulates and get stateless certificates and then they could get their passports here. This discrimination is only for those born in the Federation. If they have been living here for some years and if they have permanent residence and jobs here, at least some consideration should be given to them so that they can go to the Federation when they want to, especially in view of the good relationship between Singapore and the Federation. Somebody has to look into their problems to see that they are given freedom of travel.

Mr Lim Kim San: I am most sympathetic to that appeal and I will look into the problem.

I think it is simple to make it widely known that female Singapore citizens who marry non-citizens should follow the domiciles of their husbands. It can be made known from time to time. I think this debate will probably highlight the fact that locally-born women whose hearts are won by foreigners will, most likely, have to make their homes in countries other than Singapore.

The question was raised, how are we to know whether a husband can support his foreign wife? In some instances where we had allowed a wife to come into Singapore, we found out a few months later that she had been asking my colleague, the Minister for Social Affairs, for assistance! We also found out that the husband was doing odd jobs and earning about $80 a month. Ultimately my colleague had to support the family!

Mr P. Selvadurai: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think the Minister has replied to the specific problem to which I have referred, that of the widow who is a Singapore citizen and who is not able to bring her children into Singapore.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, on humane grounds, if the case is referred to me, I will have a further look into it.

Mr Rodrigo: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0902 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3004.

I find that the subject of "Passports" appears under two subheads. Under subhead 2013, there is a vote of $75,000 for Other Charges Annually Recurrent, and under subhead 3004 there is a vote of $111,410 for Other Charges Special Expenditure.

May I ask the Minister whether he intends to issue new passports under this subhead?

Mr Lim Kim San: There is no intention to issue new passports at all. This is a special expenditure because the sum of money is used to employ temporary staff to man the centres which issue the restricted passports. This is a temporary measure and it is expected that the rush for restricted passports will be over very soon and that this expenditure will not be used at all.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: This vote should come under "Personal Emoluments" instead of under "Passports".

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong ---

(3) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0902 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Madam Chan is not here.

The sum of $2,300,860 for Head 0902 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: I propose to take the suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting of the House now and shall take the chair again at 5.40 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.10 p.m, until 5.40 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.40 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 1001 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

During the past one year, the Ministry of Culture has done much to promote cultural activities. For instance, there are more and more films of local plays and dramas. Many educative films are shown on television. Although these films are supplied by the Ministry of Education, television comes under the Ministry of Culture. So the credit should also go to the Ministry of Culture. Such TV programmes as "Youth Forum" and "It's Happening in Singapore" are beneficial to the people as a whole. There are other programmes, such as forums by students, artists, etc., which are of educational value. But there are also some T.V, and radio programmes which are not "healthy". For instance, the radio programmes consist of too much pop music and odious songs such as, "My Dear Ones", "My Sisters" and other endearing and romantic terms. These unhealthy themes are deleterious to our youths.

Sir, we know that good and educative programmes are conducive to nation building because they can encourage our people to build a better and brighter future. On the other hand, the narcotic and erotic type of programmes will have a contrary effect on the people. I will quote what the Minister for Culture said at a function of Nanyang University as reported by the Sin Chew Jit Poh on 11th December, 1968:

'Our culture should be a patriotic culture. It should be a dynamic force to enable the people to have a strong sense of patriotism and to be devoted to the country at all times.'

5.45 p.m.

Sir, I think you will agree with me that this is a very correct cultural policy. But the question is, how are we going to promote this sort of culture if our radio and T.V, are showing too much unhealthy programmes which are romantic and erotic and which have deleterious types of music? How are we to foster a patriotic type of culture with these programmes? They are not a dynamic force for our people. On the contrary, they have an intoxicating and narcotic effect which will damage the morals of our people. The people will be put to sleep and will not be awake to the requirements of nation building.

We have now 200,000 radio and television listeners. The Ministry of Culture has a very heavy responsibility in promoting culture in the course of our nation building. Many of our youths are undergoing military training. We should have more robust, healthy and rugged youths taking part in our nation building. How are we going to make our young generation a robust and rugged society if they are being shown the James Bond type of films, especially films which are erotic, peculiar and fantastic, and contain violence, romance and sex? How are we going to cultivate and instil in them a sense of patriotism and social consciousness?

I feel that the radio and television programmes should be changed. There should be more healthy and educational programmes. There should be better types of programmes which contain forums, debates and talks. I do not know what the Minister for Culture has in view. I would like to ask him whether our T.V, is going to organise and show films on youth forums and organise radio forums and shows which will enable our social and political leaders and those in educational circles to give talks. These programmes would benefit our people.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap (Geylang Serai): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, as we know, radio and television are the media of communication between the Government and the people. They are also forms of entertainment. In addition, they are useful guides to our people. In view of the fact that our country is in the process of nation building, every citizen must strive towards achieving this aim. Radio and television can play an important role in this respect. They can put on programmes which contain plays and concerts which aim at nation building.

There are few Malay programmes on television. Moreover, translations from non-Malay films are few and far between. The national language is encouraged by the Government. Every citizen should learn to use it. It is, therefore, wise for films to be translated into the national language and increase the showing of such films on T.V. I hope the Ministry will consider my suggestions and improve the radio and television programmes in this respect.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have a notice of amendment No. (2)*. I think I can take up my subject under this subhead and forgo moving amendment No. (2).

• Amendment (2) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1006.

Much of what I want to say will be underlining the observations of the Member for Sembawang. Generally speaking, Sir, I think the Department of Broadcasting has met the leisure needs of the people in television viewing. Human preferences are multitudinous and so varied that I think it is impossible to satisfy every viewer. But what appears to be the case is that the Broadcasting Department is pleasing a large number of people with programmes like crime thrillers and associated programmes containing no small measure of violence. I think this is worrying. It becomes extraordinarily worrying because at the time when I was applying my mind to this problem, there was reported in our local press the case of Mary and Nomar who were alleged to have strangled a five-year old in a county in England. Then in one of our local cinemas, the Boston Strangler was "let loose". All this was also reminiscent of the assault on a residence in my own constituency in the style and tradition of The F.B.I. series. I think this calls for some thinking in the department. I wonder if there is any sort of a research unit in the Department .of Broadcasting which is constantly applying its efforts to try to satisfy the great number of television viewers with programmes much more congenial and much less frightening. I believe that if some effort is applied in this direction, it is possible to devise a means by which we can try to satisfy our television viewers in a happier manner.

The other matter which I wish to raise under this subhead is censorship of publications and films. I think it is being carried out by this Ministry. In so far as censorship of publications is concerned, I would like to know who constitutes the censoring body. What is the extent of layman participation in it? What is the proportion of laymen and professional men in the censoring body? Are there also laymen in the censoring body of film censorship?

Just to round off my observations, Sir, I come back to the Broadcasting Department. I think this Department should be aware that we have already bulk unemployment, and as time goes on it will increase in size. Whatever efforts have been undertaken by this medium - it is a most powerful medium indeed -an attempt should be made to inculcate in our people a sense of positivism. This is going to be a tall order. I do not know how they are going to go about it. If this medium can inculcate in our people a sense of positivism instead of a sense of negativism, a sense of confidence in their ability to look after their position in life, it might help to make them more creative individually. They would adopt a brighter outlook towards life, and be more confident, instead of reacting to life negatively. The short outcome of it all is that it will invoke in them a very positivistic attitude. I certainly hope the Broadcasting Department will look into this matter.

The Minister for Culture (Mr Jek Yeun Thong): Mr Speaker, Sir, much of the criticism levelled at the Ministry of Culture is aimed at the Broadcasting Department. I think it would be useful to Members if I were to give a brief description of the activities which we are carrying on in the Broadcasting Division of the Ministry of Culture. In fact, for the last six months most of our attention and energy has been concentrated in reorganising this division.

The primary task of the Broadcasting Division is to introduce dynamic leadership so that talents both from within and from without can be fully utilised. This calls for administrative and structural reorganisation and the Broadcasting Division was, therefore, raised to the status of a Ministry, with its own Permanent Secretary and its own Ministerial administrative machinery.

6.00 p.m.

This has enabled the division to act more quickly and effectively in the past six months. The conversion of the department into a Ministry has been completed in a very short period of time. With the new status, the division is able to plan and put into execution a number of desirable projects as well as modifying old ones.

One of the obvious projects was the extension of both radio and television broadcasting hours. Radio broadcasting hours have increased by 59 hours per week and television transmissions have been extended by some 12 hours per week. With the arrival of new equipment expected in the early part of next year, television transmission hours will be further extended from the planned 34 hours per week to over 110 hours a week. This figure does not include some 60 hours a week for educational television broadcasts.

Another project was the successful series of youth forums which were mentioned just now by the Member for Sembawang. These programmes give our youth their rightful share of opportunities to speak on and participate in matters concerning our society. The programmes themselves were enriched by audience participation. In this way, we hope to try to instil in our programmes the so-called healthy content required by our society. Audience participation is an important ingredient in a programme and we are going to have more programmes with this kind of participation so as to make them lively and enjoyable to all.

The Member for Sembawang has raised the question of pop songs being broadcast over radio and T.V. This is a subject which has been brought up year after year. I begin to wonder whether he is raising this subject in order to appear a moralist. Sometimes it is rather difficult to define what you call low-class and high-class music. Of course, sometimes we have love songs and crazy music over radio and T.V. But not all love songs are low class. I think some classical songs are very good but they are also love songs. It is rather difficult for us to define. Furthermore, we have to satisfy people of all walks of life. We have to satisfy the requirements of people of different age groups, people of different races and different language streams. Since radio and T.V, are mass media, we have always aimed at trying to present our programmes to satisfy the majority of the people. I think pop songs may sometimes be necessary because it is simple and easy to learn. To appreciate classical music requires some training and knowledge. Since radio and T.V, have appeal for the masses, we have to take the mean and it is rather difficult for us to try to define whether a song is low class or not. It is a matter of personal taste.

I think part of the question has been answered by the Member for Serangoon Gardens when he says that it is not possible to satisfy every viewer. We are always trying to look for new formats, and I do agree with him that the violent films which sometimes appear on T.V, are very damaging to our younger generation. But the trouble here is that we are dependent on syndicated films to fill up the long hours of broadcast. Since it is expensive to make our shows and films, we have always taken in a lot of films imported from the West. Unfortunately, most of these films are mainly about violence, adventures or sex. But we try to minimise their effect and reduce the number of hours for films of this kind. Another way is to try to go into our own production of films in a big way. In the past, we have produced operas in Teochew, Hokkien and Cantonese. I understand these shows have received widespread support and enthusiasm. This is only an attempt to solve the problem and we are also looking into other fields.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens has also asked whether there is any basis in censorship of publications. The-censorship of publications is governed by the Undesirable Publications Ordinance. The Controller of Undesirable Publications has power to retain publications which he thinks are objection able in the public interest on political, social or moral grounds. The Controller acts on the advice of an advisory committee. The committee comprises people from outside the Ministry, including some Members of Parliament. Censor-, ship of books is considered on the merits of each case and there is no blanket rule with regard to censorship.

As regards film censorship, there is, also a Film Appeals Committee which allow appeals from film distributors. The Chairman is the Speaker of Parlia ment and the Committee meet once a week or once a month to review appeals made by film importers.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng (Joo Chiat): Mr Speaker. Sir, I am glad to hear the reply by the Minister for Culture. I feel that if he were to listen to the Member for Sembawang, life would be very dull. My impression is that the Member for Sembawang appears to be deprived of even one iota of romance. At present, I find that our radio and T.V, programmes are very, very dull and I think a little bit of a "pep-up" might do our population a lot of good. I am glad the Minister is not listening to puritanical demands by some Members. Otherwise our population of two million will look like the Member for Sembawang.

Sir, in normal life, the usual activities of love, romance, violence and perhaps even murder are not unusual. If our radio and T.V. programmes are to be deprived of these, again I say life will be very dull. Are we going to develop two million robots in this country? I feel that if the Ministry of Culture can have reasonable control over more violent and perhaps sexy types of programmes, then life will be all right. We must not try to introduce such puritanical standards in our population just because of a small section of the people. Our people are intelligent and wise enough to see for themselves and think for themselves what is right and what is wrong. So I hope the Minister for Culture will allow our population to enjoy our radio and T.V, programmes and not to be subjected to a lot of brainwashing.

Sir, may I suggest that for Chinese shows and films that are being shown nowadays on T.V., English subtitles be given so that they will be of some help to persons like me because I cannot understand a word of what is going on and I have no chance of enjoying such good films.

6.15 p.m.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Mr Speaker. Sir, it seems that my queries have not been answered by the Minister.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not mean to steal the limelight from the Member for Sembawang on the question of culture. There is a lack of advertisements for locally-produced goods on television. This is contrary to the Government's policy of promoting local industries, imposing tariffs on imported goods, and encouraging our people to buy locally-made goods. There is still a lack of advertisements on locally-made goods; and because of this, the people may not have confidence in them. The best means of publicising the policy to the people is to advertise extensively on television. At the moment, I should say such advertisements are very few and I do not know whether the Minister has any explanation for this.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not rise to speak on low-class music, pop songs or anything of that sort. My complaint is about the low-class films being televised. The Minister for Culture has said just now that the Chinese operas have received very good support. There have been complaints about re showing these films many times on television. Is the Minister aware of this?

Sir, on the question of censorship of books and records, is the Minister aware that many Chinese literature books imported from Taiwan are allowed to be sold in the bookshops? The literary classics published in China are bad, but what is more surprising is this. Someone went to Hong Kong and bought some books and records on the teaching of the Chinese language, but these books were confiscated because they praised Mao Tse-tung. Of course, the censorship board could have expunged the phrases which praised Mao Tse-tung or anybody else, but if we in Singapore, having a multi-racial society and a multi-lingual system of translation in Parliament, want to learn and speak a particular language well, we are certainly not going to have Chinese teaching manuals from a college in London. Sir, if we want our people to study more languages and be more fluent in their speech, the censorship of these manuals should be relaxed and they should be censored only when they praise any heroes.

Can the Minister give an assurance that he will look into the matter so that everyone of us will be happier in reading these books?

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to say something different. This concerns the dresses of our women. The mini-skirts they are wearing are too short. It seems to me that they are competing with one another to see who wears the shortest mini-skirts. The day might come when the mini-skirts will be so short that there will be nothing left! The Minister for Culture must look into this because our society is becoming too "progressive". He should think of a way to improve women's dresses so that our country looks civilised.

Mr Teong Eng Siong rose -

The Chairman: The Member for Sembawang need not have any anxiety. He is the mover of the amendment and he will have the last word.

Mr Teong Eng Siong resumed his seat.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am glad that the Member for Joo Chiat has spoken what is in my mind on many of the things which I may not want to say in my capacity as a Minister. I entirely agree with him when he says that the Member for Sembawang is a bit "square". I am sure the people in Singapore deserve something lively and different from regimented-production films.

Regarding the Teochew, Hokkien and Cantonese operas, we are trying to put sub-titles in them, but the question is, in what language should the sub-titles be, because people who speak other dialects may not be able to understand a Teochew opera. So usually we put Chinese sub-titles in Teochew and Cantonese operas. The television screen is a small one and if you put in the Chinese sub-titles, it is not possible to accommodate the English sub-titles as well. Fortunately, most viewers of Chinese opera can understand the film when they watch Hokkien operas because the song content is not excessive and we can therefore put in English sub-titles.

The Member for Tiong Bahru asked why radio and television have not put on advertisements for local products. The Commercial Section of the Broadcasting Division has approached all kinds of people for advertisements and they have not overlooked this source of income from the manufacturers of local products. But the trouble with our local manufacturers is that they have a captive market, an-d knowing that their products are protected by tariffs, they are in a very advantageous position to compete with the imported products. They therefore do not bother to advertise even though we have given them special discounts for putting up advertisements over the radio and on television. They will have to change their attitude because our population is very brand-conscious, and if they want to be successful in selling their products, they will have to resort to this mass medium to sell them.

The Member for Changi asked why we have repeated telecasting low-class films on television. I do not know what he means by "low-class" films. I think he has in mind the Chinese films from Hong Kong. There is an acute shortage of Chinese films. The films industry is not happy that television should compete with them because it is taking away their audience. They have therefore tried to control the supply of Chinese films to television. I understand that they have agreed not to supply films to television which are less than 10 years old. This is the reason why we have been telecasting all these very old films. We have recently solved this problem by installing a new 35 m.m, film projector and we do not have to depend on 16 m.m, films the supply of which is less than that of 35 m.m, films. The film industry has also agreed to co-operate with us and good films are now available. I hope we can get some very good Chinese films on television next year.

6.30 p.m.

As regards the complaint about the importation of books from China and Taiwan, the Publications Section of the Ministry of Culture deals with the importation of books and it does not allow into Singapore books which are politically objectionable. Of course, there are many good classical books produced in China. But of late, because of the cultural revolution in China, I think almost every book that is published there contains quotations from The Thoughts of Chairman Mao. I do not think books of this kind should be im ported into Singapore. But if they are good books, the importer can appeal and we will look into the matter.

I do not think I have to reply to the charge made by the Member for Ulu Pandan about mini-skirts because my Ministry is not in charge of women's dresses. Fortunately, there is no censorship of women's dresses.

The Member for Geylang Serai asked why there is such a small number of Malay programmes on television. We have a system of allocating transmis sion hours to the various language streams. To refresh the Member's memory, the percentages of the total transmission hours are 20 per cent for the national language, 35 per cent for the Chinese stream, 10 per cent for the Tamil stream and 35 per cent for the English stream. Previously, Television Singapura used to show Egyptian and Hindustani films with Malay subtitles against the Malay quota. It was thought that the shortage of films for the Malay programmes could be met by using Egyptian and Hindustani films. But in the last few months, a change has been made. We are now using English films with sub-titles in Malay to meet the Malay quota. This has met with an enthusiastic response from the Malay audience. They prefer Western films to Egyptian and Hindustani films. The people of other language streams are slso able to enjoy these films.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank you very much for letting me have the last word.

I do not agree with what the Minister has said. I feel that my criticism of the Ministry of Culture is fair. The Minister has said that the same problems are brought up here every year. But I have to raise them if they are not solved. I cannot be complacent about problems that are allowed to exist.

I do not know whether the Minister will accept the statement of the Member for J00 Chiat that he prefers to see romantic and exciting films. I think such films are not in keeping with the Government's policy of building a rugged society.

I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (2) * is not being moved. Amendment No. (3) , Inche Mohd. Ariff.

• Amendment No. (2) , standing in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1006.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1251.

Mr Speaker, Sir, during the debate on the Estimates for 1967, the Minister of State for Culture said - and I quote from Hansard Vol. 25, No. 12, dated 19th December, 1966, col. 908:

'...the fact that the national language is popular in the City State, where 75 per cent of the population are Chinese, is enough to show that at least the Dewan Bahasa is doing its best to encourage the study of the national language.'

The Minister of State for Culture added:

'We are now considering expanding this organisation into a Research Institute into Languages and Culture.'

It looks as if there will be no change in the provision for the staff and the achievements planned for 1969. In fact, the national language campaign has not been held this year although this has been a yearly affair. What is the extent of the progress made by the Dewan Bahasa? What is the Minister doing to promote further the study of the national language in the Dewan Bahasa in accordance with its status?

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not know what the Minister of State for Culture has promised the Member. But what I do know is that we must have a realistic approach to the role played by the Dewan Bahasa dan Kebudayaan Kebangsaan. For a long time past, we have not been able to get a suitable person to be the editor of the Dewan. But even if it is not possible to expect the editor, together with the research officer, to have any great impact on the development of the Malay language and culture, if you turn to page 284 of the Estimates, under the O.C.A.R. of the Dewan Bahasa, you will find that most of the items are given token votes of only $10. This has been so for the last few years. Under the present standstill Budget arrangements, it is not possible to ask for extra funds unless the project is revenue-producing, and the Dewan, unfortunately, is not such a project. It is clear that we cannot expect anyone to run a department efficiently -

6.40 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. I am afraid it is "guillotine" time, Mr Jek.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): In view of the "guillotine" time, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The time allotted for Head 1001 having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with:

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1351.

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1551.

Mr P. Govindaswamy:

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1631.

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1701.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: Mr Lim Soo Peng: Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(8) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $22,097,540 for Head 1001 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1101 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Teong Eng Siong -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1005.

The Chairman: Mr Teong is not here. Mr Ng Yeow Chong, amendment No. (2) *.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1051*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Tay Boon Too.

Sir, following the need to build a rugged society, the promotion of sports in our Republic has never been so intensive as it is today. Since the creation of the Sports Division in the Ministry of Social Affairs in 1967, sports activities have been organised and promoted on a national basis.

Many Ministers and even some Members of Parliament have shown their keenness in sports activities by taking an active part as presidents of sports orga nisations. However, I note with regret that badminton, which is popular among our young citizens, has been somewhat neglected by the Government and civic organisations. There has so far been no organised effort to revive it.

May I, therefore, seek information from the Minister for Social Affairs as to whether a plan has been drawn up to train our young enthusiasts to become potential players of international standard? If so, how many trainees are there and how often do they train? Can the Minister also inform the House when these trainees are expected to come out into the open and compete in international tournaments in order to win back the coveted Thomas Cup?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I support the Member for Mountbatten.

We all know that sports play a very important part in the building of a rugged society in our Republic. Sports activities make our youths physically strong, tenacious and well disciplined. Therefore, we lay great emphasis on the promotion of sports activities. But we neglect to train the athletes who represent our country in international sports events. It is not just a simple matter to build a rugged society. Basically the problem lies in how to encourage the people to take an interest in sports.

6.45 p.m.

Second, of course, we must have suitable playgrounds for them in which to train and compete. If we have these two conditions, then we can call the people to participate more positively in sports. In other countries, athletes compete in international events, and the gaining of national glory for the state is an invaluable asset. But the important point with regard to our national athletes is whether the Government is making an effort to train them in order to show that it is encouraging an interest in sports, and also whether we are giving enough attention to these athletes to show that the Government is appreciative of their efforts. We are trying to promote a rugged society, but I am afraid we are not paying enough attention to these national athletes and sportsmen. We all know that it takes a long period of training for an athlete or sportsman to reach the required high standard when he can represent our national team. The training is very rigorous. Herein lies the problem. Should the Government encourage and train them or should they themselves take the initiative and train on their own? When I refer to athletes, I, of course, refer to those athletes who represent Singapore. Our athletes are left to their own initiative and devices to train themselves. They do not have the necessary equipment or apparatus for their training. They do not also have sufficient time. Most of them are employed. If you want to train them after they have returned from work, you cannot expect much result from such training. How then are we going to raise their standards?

Another point which I would like the Minister to take note of is that certain athletes do not even have a proper job. For example, the Volley Ball Association has three of its members who have given up their training because of the need to look for a job. They have recently taken on jobs as sailors and have left the country. This is a waste of talent and a loss to our country. These three volley-ball players have all the necessary qualifications and capability to be trained as excellent athletes. I am not suggesting that the state should feed and clothe them. It is beyond our means to do so. But what we should do is to engage these athletes in the task of nation building. They can very well become sports instructors in the Ministry of the Interior and Defence. They have the necessary qualifications to become sports instructors. If they have the necessary academic qualifications, the Government should give them better treatment. By doing so, the people will respond and- take part in sports and other athletic events.

Another point I wish to touch upon is the question of playing fields and training grounds. We should have better training grounds and other training faci lities. I do not mean that we should have an ideal training ground and build a grand sports complex. In any case, we should at least build an indoor sports stadium with training facilities. Situated as we are in a tropical country -

The Chairman: Mr Tay, "guillotine" time for this hea-d is at ten minutes past seven. There are a number of amendments. You have asked for fifteen minutes and you have used up about twelve minutes of the time. Can you please conclude your remarks? I am concerned that Madam Chan, who did not speak under the head Ministry of Culture, should not miss an opportunity to speak under this head.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Thank you for reminding me, Mr Speaker. I would like to sum up my observations. I hope the Minister will pay attention to the need for an indoor sports stadium. It should be a multipurpose stadium with training facilities for all kinds of sports.

The Minister for Social Affairs (Inche Othman Bin Wok): Mr Speaker, Sir, in answer to the point raised by the Member for Mountbatten regarding badminton in the Republic, I am pleased to inform the House that Mr Wong Peng Soon, four times All-England Badminton Champion, has been employed by the Government since January this year to select and train a national badminton squad to compete in the next Thomas Cup in 1969. He has selected seven players to be in the squad based on their age, skill and performance at competitions. These seven members have since June this year been undergoing serious and strenuous training five nights every week from 6.30 p.m. to 11.00 p.m. This intensive training is to ensure that the squad is fully fit by the time it competes in the next Thomas Cup series. The members of the squad are not paid any allowances for their training. But the Sports Promotion Division has made arrangements with their employers for the players to leave office at 3.30 p.m. every day of the week to enable them to practise. In addition, the players are provided with badminton shoes, socks, beverages, cod liver oil, vitamins and refreshments. These are articles donated by commercial firms who are interested in Singapore making an impression in the next Thomas Cup games. Arrangements have also been made with the Ministry of Education for the squad to be given exclusive use of the Victoria School gymnasium for their training. To see that the squad is physically fit to undergo the training, regular checks are made on them by a panel of three doctors who have volunteered their services.

Mr Wong has also recommended that the national badminton squad should, at the appropriate time, be sent abroad to take part in international matches to give them the necessary experience and match temperament so that they will be fully attuned when they take part in the next Thomas Cup series. Arrangements are being made for them to go on a tout to play matches in Japan, Cambodia, Burma and Thailand in April or May next year, after which they will be ready to compete in the Australian zone of the Thomas Cup series in 1969.

To the point that was raised by the Member for Paya Lebar, I would like to inform the House that the active encouragement of sports and games as part of the policy of creating a physically rugged society in the Republic has resulted in numerous requests being made by sports organisations to help members of national teams to enable them to keep up with their training.

The Sports Promotion Division has assisted sportsmen in one way or another, such as obtaining unrecorded leave from their employers, time-off for training an-d also free medical attention. For those members who are unemployed, arrangements have also been made to get them suitable jobs. Since the beginning of this year, jobs have been found for a few outstanding athletes, basket-ball players, football players, badminton players, cyclists and, I believe, volley-ball players, too, in the private sector and in the statutory bodies. If the three volley-ball players are still unemployed at the moment, I should be very grateful if the Member could forward their names to me and I will do my best to help them get employment. Also with the active promotion of sports in the armed forces, it is expected that some good sportsmen in the national teams may be recruited into the police and military services. For instance, they could be instructors, as the Member has said.

With regard to the building of more closed stadiums for games, such as volley-ball, table tennis, etc., I am glad to inform the Member that there is provision in the National Sports Complex at Kallang for the building of an indoor stadium where such games can be staged. It may be air-conditioned. This is being looked into - if money is available. Besides, the Member will be aware of the facilities that are also available in the halls of the numerous schools built in Singapore where such indoor games can be played.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: I thank the Minister for the information. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.00 p.m.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo -

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1071.

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1121.

The Chairman: Amendments (3) and (4) , Mr Rodrigo is not here. Madam Chan, amendment (5) .

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1171.

Sir, I would like to speak on the Legal Aid Bureau and put certain suggestions to the Minister. From the name of this Bureau, I presume that its aim is to render legal aid to poor people who cannot otherwise afford to obtain professiona1 legal advice. I do not know how many cases have been dealt with by the Bureau every year and I do not know how many have been solved. I am of the view that this Bureau is spending quite a lot of Government money but its work is not satisfactory. It has come to my knowledge that this Bureau has not been able to render legal aid to poor people generally. On the contrary, it has been made use of by lawyers for their own administrative convenience. Take the instance of a lawyer who takes up the case of a client and he is not able to get the necessary evidence. If this evidence is deposited in the Bureau, the client will be asked to go to the Bureau to seek legal aid. The Bureau will say that they cannot act on his behalf. But if he wants to get cer tain documents or records, he will be able to get them from the Bureau and, having got them, he will go back to the lawyer. This lawyer will then be able to make use of the documents on behalf of his client in court. The client is not poor and yet it turns out the Legal Aid Bureau has rendered help to him.

But poor people who really need legal aid are not given aid at all. I have come across a case like this. In my constituency, there is a certain area where Malays live. Previously this area was part of Queenstown Constituency. But after the redelineation of electoral boundaries, this area has come within my constituency. The Malays who live in this area are subtenants and the houses are owned by rich people. The rent is $30 for a partitioned house and there are about 20 families living in every house. There are more than ten houses of this type.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, we have only three minutes more and if you want a reply from the Minister, you will have to stop.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Yes, Sir, I will cut it short. Not long ago, the Malays living in this area received notices to quit within three months. If they did not quit, their water and electricity supply would be cut. When I raised this matter with the Legal Aid Bureau, the officials promised to help them. However, after nearly two months, no news was heard about this case. I made several inquiries and yet no satisfactory answer was given, with the result that the landlord has been able to persuade the Malays to move out by giving each family only a small sum of money as compensation. These Malays have asked me to approach the Housing Board to get alternative accommodation for them.

I am of the view that this Bureau is riot able to help the poor people who are really in need of legal aid.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Sir, to answer briefly the questions raised by the Member for Delta. The number of applications dealt with by the Bureau for the years 1961 to 1st December this year averages 2,400 a year. I do not have the figure for cases solved. But the monies recovered on behalf of the applicants range from $130,000 in 1961 to $371,000 in 1967. From this, Sir, you can see that many of the cases have been solved. Whatever money has to be recovered, has been recovered.

On the last point about Malays living in the Delta area, if the Member can give me more particulars, I will certainly attend to this case.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi -

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2003.

The Chairman: Amendment (6) . Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here.

The sum of $2,564,070 for Head 1101 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1102 -

The Chairman: Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here. Madam Chan, amendment (1) .

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1102*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

7.11 p.m.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Sir, this subhead concerns children's centres and creches. The last time I raised a question in this House concerning extending the hours of service of creches, the Minister for Social Affairs said that he was not prepared to do so. I would like to say that in the daytime these creches are mainly used for children whose mothers are working. But in the evening the women folk will not have the time to engage in community activities. Because of their financial difficulties, they cannot engage house-maids to look after their children. And when the husband goes to work, the wife will have to stay at home and look after the children. This may be quite unfair. As such, women are not able to go out and take part in community activities. Since the creches are empty in the evening, it would be a good idea if we could extend the hours of service of creches so that mothers can have more time to take part in community activities. This will not endanger the relationship between the children and their mothers.

Another point is that we can employ more people if the hours of service of creches are extended. This will contribute towards the solution of our unemployment problem.

The other point concerns the instructors in these creches. As far as I know, ever since the establishment of children's centres and creches, the method of supervision and the equipment used in these creches have not been ideal. The instructors have been using English to deal with the children. Most of the reading material is mainly in English. This is not quite in harmony with our efforts to promote the use of a second language.

7.15 p.m.

These children will be deprived of the opportunity to familiarise themselves with the second language and this may cause them some difficulties later on. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will reply to the questions I have raised.

If the Minister is of the opinion that it is not possible to extend the hours of service of the creches because of some technical problems, perhaps he may consider whether the women's section of the community centres can make use of the creches for working mothers in the evenings.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I shall speak briefly about the creches. They were only set up after the People's Action Party came to power. Their establishment is in line with our policy of democratic socialism to look after the poorer people, and those who are working can leave their children in the creches.

I have two points to raise on this matter. Firstly, the creches are not widespread because they are situated in the urban areas only. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether the Government plans to build creches in the rural areas. There are many women folk in the rural areas who go to work, and their children lack their personal attention. If the Government can build creches in the rural areas, they will be helping the people because they can send their children there when they go to work.

The second point is that I have received complaints about the food served in the creches. In recent years, the food has been reduced in quantity. This will adversely affect the health of the children. I hope the Minister will look into this.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the motion of the Member for Delta. In certain industrial areas such as .Jurong and Tanglin Halt, the women folk usually go to work. No creches have been built there. I would suggest that creches be built there.

Furthermore, the children in the creches should also be taught various languages. The Member for Delta has mentioned that the medium of instruction is solely English. In our efforts to promote multi-lingualism, we should instruct the children in other languages as well.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the suggestion made by the Member for Sembawang that we should set up creches in the rural areas, because the rural folk are financially worse off than those in the urban areas. Also they have more children. I feel there is a need to build creches for the children of these people in the rural areas.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, let me thank the Members who have spoken on the creches. Thus, they have given publicity to the availability of creches and the people will know that they can leave their children in the creches when they go to work.

Two months ago, we held a press conference during which we mentioned the services that the creches could provide. But many parents still do not send their children to the creches when they go to work. Many of the creches are quite empty and some are not full up. So when Members raise the question of creches in this House, it will serve to inform the public of the services provided by the creches.

Members have criticised the services provided by the creches, for example, shortage of food, etc. I would like to assure Members that if their allegations are correct, then we will take the necessary action to improve the situation.

In regard to languages used at the creches, I agree that we should also provide opportunities for the children to learn other languages than English. In the past, most of the officials in the creches have been educated in English and so we have to use English as the medium of instruction. Since Members have expressed their views on this point, we will try our best to rectify the situation. But speaking from the administrative point of view, we have no alternative but to carry on using English, but, in other aspects, we may use other languages or even dialects. In fact, many dialects are spoken because the children in the creches come from various races an-d an Indian may be able to speak Hokkien. During the youth festival, we were able to see on television children of other races performing Chinese traditional dances and vice versa. Our policy in educating these children is therefore based on multi-lingualism and multi-racialism.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

7.25 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): I would like to give some figures about the teachers in the creches. Of the 10 assistant lady superintendents, five are educated in Chinese and two are educated in both Chinese and English. Of the 16 instructors in charge of the children's centres, nine are educated in both Chinese and English. The term "Chinese" also includes dialects such as Cantonese, Hainanese, Hokkien, etc. Some of them are able to speak Indian and Tamil. Of the 51 assistant instruc tors working in the creches and children's centres, 32 are educated in Chinese and seven are educated in both Chinese and English.

We do not have sufficient books produced locally for the children to read. It is regrettable that there is a shortage of locally-produced books for reading. As long as the contents of the books are healthy and educative to the children and not pernicious to our policy of patriotism an-d nationalism, they can be used in the creches. It does not matter where they are produced. Books which provide lessons in singing, -dancing and handicraft are useful to the children and we have seen the works of these children in the various exhibitions held so far.

On the question of quantity of food, the decision rests with the experts. If they are of the opinion that the quantity of food is insufficient, they will look into it. I think Members should not worry about this because almost all the children in the creches have very fat and round faces. This shows that they are healthy.

7.30 p.m.

I fully support the suggestion that more creches should be set up in the rural areas. The setting up of creches in the industrial areas is logical. Many workers in the lower income group are employed in industries. It is a good suggestion that they can put their children in creches while they go to work in the day-time. As I have said, creches have not been extensively used. But I will look into the matter if there is a greater need for creches in the rural and industrial areas.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): The Parliamentary Secretary has not answered one of the points I have raised.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): I am sorry I forgot to reply to it.

The Member for Delta said a few days ago that the creches should remain open in the evenings. In many socialist countries where the children are looked after by the state, a somewhat cold relationship develops between the parents and their children. Therefore, it is better that the creches should be closed in the evenings so that the children can go home to their families.

The Member for Delta made a good suggestion that some members of the women's section of the community centres should serve in the creches. But consideration should be given to whether the creches are extensively used. If only seven or eight children make use of a creche, there is no point in adopting her suggestion. But I will consider her suggestion.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1151.

Sir, with your leave, I would also like to range over my next amendment No. (3) * in relation to subhead 1152 which comes under "Public Assistance Sec tion". During last year's debate on the Estimates in Committee of Supply, I raised a certain point and I was told that the matter could be referred to the Minister for action. One year has now elapsed and there is still no action yet. Therefore, I am raising this point again this year. I hope the Minister will do something in respect of the points I am raising and give sympathetic consideration to the voice of the poor people.

• Amendment No. (3) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in rspect of subhead 1152.

As we all know, our people are self-respecting. It is only when they have no other alternative that they go to the Public Assistance Section for public assistance. There are many kinds of people in the world. There are well-off people who shamelessly seek public assistance. I will, therefore, ask the Minister to reassess the situation so that the names of those who are not in need of public assistance can be struck off.

I would like to mention the case of some recipients of public assistance. In my constituency, there are widows with seven or eight children who are neglected when their mothers go to work. When these mothers are unable to maintain their families, they seek public assistance. If an applicant is suffering from tuberculosis or a disability, he gets more, otherwise he gets $40 a month. The expenditure of a family of eight living in an attap house is smaller than that of a similar family who are required to resettle in Housing Board flats. Although the rent of a Housing Board flat is only about $20 a month, such a family may find it difficult to make ends meet as they have to pay an additional $10 or $20 a month for water and electricity. So some members of the household take in washing and earn about $10 or $15 a month. But if the inspectors of the Public Assistance Section find out that they are getting an additional income from other sources, the amount of money that they get as public assistance will be cut the following month. When this happens, they come sorrowfully to our "meet-the-people sessions" and the only thing that we can do for them is to approach the Public Assistance Section and plead on their behalf. The difficulty of the pro blem lies in the policy of the Public Assistance Section which stops paying public assistance to a family that is earning an additional income. I personally think this is wrong because such families are not getting sufficient public assistance. So we should give them sympathetic consideration. But, of course, if a recipient family is earning more than $100 a month, their public assistance can be cut off.

I hope the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to this matter.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, we know that fleece is got from a sheep. So if we are millionaires, we can say, "I will give you as much as you want." But in the final analysis, the money comes from the taxes paid by the people. Of course, we have good intentions, but we must face realities. We all know that the Minister for Finance has given us a certain sum of money. If we are going to give money to anyone who claims that he is in -dire need, we will not be able to fulfil our obligations. I remember on one occasion the Minister gave $10 to a person at a "meet-the-people session" when he complained that he was in dire straits. Very soon afterwards, many people came for similar requests. I sympathise with what the Member for Delta has said regarding the plight of the poor people, that because of the inability of the Government to give sufficient public assistance some members of a family have to take in washing to earn an additional income and that this may result in a cut in their public assistance. The Public Assistance Section is in charge of public money. Although we have to help the poor people, at times they may not be satisfied with what they get. This is a fact of life. However, the officials in the Public Assistance Section treat all cases fairly. The Minister once asked the assessors and investigators to give instructions to them, because there had been some incidents -

The Chairman: We are fast approaching "guillotine" time, Mr Chan.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I hope the Minister can assure me that he will take steps to remedy the situation to which I have referred.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member has suggested that I should deal with this matter thoroughly. I cannot promise this. If there are cases where we can help, of course, we will be glad to do so. If we cannot do it, then it is just impossible to do so.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.45 p.m.

The time allotted for Head 1102 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong, was not proceeded with:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $13,015,810 for Head 1102 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1103 -

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1103 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2005.

Sir, I note that there is a tremendous increase in the amount for this vote for the next financial year as compared with the provision for last year. As explained in the Memorandum on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, the increase is due to the payment of rental of all the fire hydrants in the Republic to the Public Utilities Board. From now on theP.U.B, will be responsible for the installation of new hydrants and for the maintenance of existing ones as well as for the cost of water supply to these fivehydrants. Sir, our Fire Brigade is known to be among the best equipped -

Mr Chan Chee Seng: It is the best!

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Yes, it is the best equipped. It is the most efficient Fire Brigade in this part of the world. Yet, many people in Singapore do not appreciate its excellent and efficient service. They often blame it for not being able to control the big fires that broke out in certain slum areas.

The Chairman: Mr Ng, you will have to speed up a little.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: I wish to refute this allegation. I contend that if it had not been for the efficiency of the Fire Brigade, the fires in the squatter areas would have affected the adjacent built-up and developed areas. It must be admitted that fire fighting in certain slum areas is extremely difficult because of the congestion of squatter houses and the lack of fire fighting facilities, such as fire hydrants. The recent fire at Bukit Ho Swee nearly threatened a block of Housing Board flats which were adjacent to the area under fire. The Fire Brigade was able to check the fire from spreading to the adjacent developed areas. Therefore, I wish to pay a tribute to the Fire Brigade and its members for their high efficiency.

In connection with fire hydrants, may I ask -

7.50 p.m. .

The Chairman: Order. I am afraid we have reached "guillotine" time. As the Question has not been proposed, no question of withdrawal arises.

The sum of $3,650,160 for Head 1103 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1104 -

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1104 be reduced by $10 in respect of sub-head 1301.

I would like to speak on the Industrial Manager of Prison Industries. I have some suggestions to make on this subhead. It is important that agricultural knowledge should be imparted to prisoners serving their sentences. Most of the prisoners' time is spent in acquiring industrial know-how. This is a good policy on the part of the Prison Department. We can train people in industrial know-how to cope with our industrialisation programme. However, although these prisoners have committed offences, we hope that during the time that they spend in prison they will acquire certain knowledge and skills. Most of these prisoners are secret society members. They landed themselves in prison because they had no jobs. They were forced to extort money from people and they committed other crimes. In prison they should be given an opportunity to acquire a skill in some trade. I have a suggestion. As far as I know, these prisoners are now acquiring a knowledge of industrial know-how. They are learning only the basic skills. Since we are going to spend so much money on this item, the Prison Department should see that the prisoners are given proper training in the acquiring of technical skills. The goods which they produce should also be put up for sale in shops outside the prison. This will encourage them to acquire more skill and knowledge and thereby earn more income. They can make better use of their leisure time during their term of imprisonment. They will thus discard their bad habits and ways. This is a kind of reform. It is not necessary to mete out any punishment in order to reform them. Their leisure time can be taken up with the acquiring of technical skill in trade and industry.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Mr Speaker, Sir, briefly, our prisoners are being trained in various types of jobs. We have gone beyond the original concept of re habilitating them. The prison industries in which they are being trained today provide not only suitable vocations for their rehabilitation, but also substantial revenue and savings to Government.

Let me give a few examples of the types of jobs they are doing while they are serving their sentences. They are trained in the following trades: laundry, wood-work assembly and machine shop, cane workshop, tailoring workshop, printing and book-binding workshop, timber seasoning, foot-wear, leather and upholstery workshop, metal workshop, concrete and cement workshop and other miscellaneous light industries. Some of the articles made by these prisoners are supplied to Government departments and others are sold to the public. These prison industries last year earned $701,000, which is an increase of $423,000 compared with the earnings of 1956, which amounted to $278,000.

I assure the Member for Delta that the prisoners will be able to seek employment when they leave prison after they have served their sentences, because they will have been trained in some trades.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $6,595,710 for Head 1104 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

8.00 p.m.

The Chairman: It is now eight o'clock. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st January, 1969, to 31st March, 1970, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Speaker: So be it.