ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1970, TO 31ST MARCH, 1971

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [4th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.38 p.m.

Head 0902 -

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0902 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs. P. Govindaswamy, N. Govindasamy, Cheong Yuen Chee, Lim Soo Peng, J. F. Conceicao, P. Selvadurai, and Madam Chan Choy Siong.)

Sir, can the Minister inform the House how many foreigners who have invested $125,000 or $250,000 here have been given permanent residence in the Republic? Does he not think that these investments are too small a sum for foreigners to be given permanent residence in Singapore? There are also people who have invested millions of dollars either in industries or hotels. These people are not permanent residents but are living in Singapore on visas granted to them on a yearly basis by the Immigration Department. If they apply for permanent residence, will their applications be approved on the strength of their investments?

As regards the entry of non-citizen wives into Singapore, the Minister answered an oral question on this topic asked by the Member for Geylang Serai on 9th March, 1970. My question is this: will the Minister consider asking the Immigration Department to maintain close liaison with the Registry of Marriages? In this respect, perhaps a questionnaire can be given to those citizens who wish to marry non-citizen wives to complete and return either to the Registry of Marriages or the Immigration Department. If this measure is introduced, it will caution Singapore citizens of the consequences of taking non-citizen wives. They will then be more careful about marrying non-citizens. However, this measure perhaps deserves consideration, especially when our male population exceeds our female population by about 85,000, according to a recent census taken in the Republic.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I know that many Singapore citizens in the lower income group who have wives outside Singapore are not allowed to bring them here to stay, even if they are qualified to do so. May I know the reasons for refusal?

The other point is the case of a boy who was born in China but who came to Singapore in 1956. Some time later, he went to work in Kuala Lumpur. His parents, brothers and sisters are all Singapore citizens and are staying here, and he used to travel up and down Malaysia. One day, while coming down to Singapore to visit his family, he was caught unawares by the travel restrictions imposed at the Causeway, and his blue Singapore identity card was taken away by the Immigration authorities at the Woodlands checkpoint, as he did not follow the proper procedure. He was sent back to Malaysia. Unfortunately, his Malaysian work permit had also expired and could not be renewed. As a result, this boy, who is only 17 years old, is jobless and is stranded in Kuala Lumpur. He has no relatives there, and is left to face starvation. He then cabled his father in Singapore saying that he wanted to join his family. The father applied to the Immigration authorities for consideration of his son's case, but the application was rejected. The boy's family are all Singapore citizens, and there is a job here waiting for him. Will the Minister consider returning the blue Singapore identity card to him so that he can stay with his family in Singapore?

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, from the list of Members who have given notice to speak on this subhead, it is clear that the Immigration Department is in for a lot of criticism. However, I will confine myself to just one aspect, and that is, locally-domiciled residents who are non-citizens. When these people wish to travel abroad, they are issued with certificates of identity, and only on urgent grounds. Generally they are allowed to travel only from Singapore to Malaysia, and their certificates of identity are good for one journey only. Sir, most of these people travel for the purpose of visiting sick relatives or urgent private matters; in certain cases they travel for some festive occasion.

2.45 p.m.

Sir, the Immigration Department charges something like $24.60 for this certificate of identity, which includes reentry permit charges, etc. In my opinion, $24.60 is a little too much, especially when only one trip can be made, and in some cases this trip is made only as far as Johore Bahru. Sir, for a Singapore resident to visit a sick relative in Johore Bahru, and to have to pay a fee of $24.60 is, in my opinion, too much when you consider the fact that an international passport, which has a life span of five years, costs only $25 and can be used for as many trips as one likes. On the one hand, we charge $24.60 for a certificate of identity for one trip to East Malaysia. On the other hand, we are generous enough to maintain the archaic practice of paying good conduct allowances to our policemen.

The issue of these certificates of identity is also a little too restrictive. When one applies for a certificate of identity to visit a sick relative in Malaysia, one has to show proof of illness in the form of either a telegram or a letter, etc. Our telephone system is efficient, and more often than not, the news of the illness of a relative across the Causeway is often made via the telephone. Therefore, requiring proof of illness in the form of a letter or a telegram is, I think, making it a little too difficult and inconveniencing the local residents. Therefore, I would suggest that more liberal consideration be given to this issue of certificates of identity by the Immigration Department. At the same time, I would be grateful to the Minister if he would look into the possibility of reducing the cost for a certificate of identity.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, in the past many of our citizens have gone across the Causeway to seek employment. The recent action by the Malaysian Government to restrict employment opportunities to our citizens has forced many of them to return to Singapore to earn a living.

During their period of residence in Malaysia, many of these citizens have raised families there. For obvious reasons, the members of their families have taken out Malaysian identity cards. The men-folk, however, were allowed entry into Singapore without any restriction, but not the wives and children of these citizens.

I have raised this problem with the Immigration Department, and was surprised to receive a reply stating that the people concerned could only apply for social visit passes for the members of their family in this instance, as there is no provision in the regulations to enable them to return to Singapore for permanent residence. Will the Minister consider measures to assist the families of these Singapore citizens who are affected by the Malaysian Government's action to return and reside permanently in Singapore?

Mr Lim Soo Peng (Havelock): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am informed that there are quite a few cases of people who were denied entry into Singapore because their passports had expired. These people, all Singapore citizens, were in Indonesia or somewhere else, and, for one reason or other, could not renew their passports. Later on, when they wanted to renew their passports, they were not allowed to do so. Without renewing their passports, they were not allowed reentry into Singapore. Will the Minister state whether it is his policy to deny such people readmission into Singapore? If so, please state the rationale behind it.

Mr J. F. Conceicao: I am not moving my amendment, Sir.

Mr P. Selvadurai (Bukit Panjang): I am also not moving my amendment, Sir.

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): (In Mandarin):Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to touch on a certain case concerning the immigration regulations and, at the same time, to air my complaints. With the achievement of independence, it is our duty to create employment opportunities for our own citizens. Therefore, it is necessary for the Immigration Department to take measures against illegal immigrants entering our country to share in our prosperity. I think everyone agrees with this policy. However, I think the Immigration Department should relax some of its regulations. For example, one regulation is that if a person wishes to apply for his relative to come to Singapore, he has to state the age of his relative and their relationship before he or she can be admitted into Singapore. If a son wants to apply for his mother to come to Singapore, he must first prove that she is more than 65 years old and that she has no other people abroad to support her. If a husband wants to apply for his wife to come to Singapore, there are certain regulations which state that she can be allowed into Singapore to be reunited with him provided they have met each other within a certain period. All these regulations are laid down by the Government and everybody must abide by them. Although sometimes I feel that all these regulations must be observed, I still think we should relax them.

I have one example of a husband who applied for his wife, who is in China, to come to Singapore to be reunited with him. However, according to the Immigration Department, if the husband has not met his wife for five years, it means that the husband and wife relationship has been broken off. It so happened that when this person applied for his wife to come to Singapore, she fell sick. As a result, she was not able to come here. So he was not successful in his application. He wanted to visit her in China but was not able to do so. Five years later - his wife had by then recovered from her sickness - he reapplied for her to come to Singapore. However, the Immigration Department rejected it on the grounds that she was not eligible for entry into Singapore because he had not met her for five years, and, according to the regulations, she could not come here. This person came to me for help, and I informed the Minister concerned about it. But he said, since there were so many women in Singapore, why did he not want to marry a local female citizen? I told him that this man was already past 60 years of age, so how could he marry another young girl locally? I also told him that, according to Chinese custom, a man is not allowed to take another wife if the present wife still lives. This man also said that he had married his wife out of love. It was not an arranged marriage. Their love for each other was very deep and they were willing to live together to the end of their lives. Therefore, how could we force them to separate? This person was in despair and he asked his son to apply for his mother to come to Singapore. As she was then 67 years of age, the Immigration Department said that at this age she was eligible to come to Singapore. However, when the son applied for an entry permit for his mother, it was not granted because another application had already been made on her behalf by his father. I then asked the son to try again. However, when he was about to send in his application to the Immigration Department, the father died.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we are all human and laws are made by man. Therefore, all these troubles created by man should be resolved by man.

Arising from this case, we should be sympathetic to certain applicants in future. In this particular case, we should have tried our best to help him reunite with his wife before he died. That was his wish. But under the circumstances this was not fulfilled because he could not see her. This is an example of our Government not being in sympathy with the applicant. Everything must be done according to the law, it is said. I hope the Minister will be sympathetic to applications of this nature in future.

3.00 p.m.

The Minister for Defence (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, I will reply first to the Member for Changi before proceeding to the other Members who have raised almost the same points. The Member for Changi wants to know how many foreigners who have invested between $125,000 and $250,000 have been given permanent residence in Singapore. I regret to say that I do not carry the figures around in my head. But if the Member still wants the information, he can put in a question and it will be made available. He also wants to know whether a locally-domiciled resident who invests in industry will be given permanent residence. If a person is locally-domiciled, it means that he is allowed to stay here and, in time to come, he will qualify for citizenship. Is that what the Member wants to know?

Mr Sim Boon Woo: No, Sir. I am referring to a person staying in Singapore but who holds a foreign passport. Therefore, he is not domiciled here. He is a national of another country residing in Singapore.

Mr Lim Kim San: Then he comes under the category of persons who apply for permanent residence with an investment of $1/4 million. If the person so mentioned by the Member for Changi wants permanent residence, he will apply in the normal way as the others. There is no difference between them. If he is thinking of investing or has invested $1/4 million --

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, he has invested millions of dollars in industry, hotels and other projects, and he is trying to apply for permanent residence on the strength that he has already invested in Singapore prior to the introduction of the scheme to give permanent residence to foreigners who invest $125,000.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker Sir, I must confess that I am unaware of such cases. It is not because of ignorance. If a man is astute enough to have earned a few million dollars, I think he is astute enough to take advantage of any scheme that we may have so that he can obtain permanent residence.

Sir, to come to the other Members, I think there are two points in common which they raised. One is with regard to the entry of non-citizen wives and children of Singapore citizens. What they are asking for is a liberalisation of the law which permits non-citizen wives and children of Singapore citizens to come into Singapore on a permanent residence basis. I think it will help a great deal and will save a lot of time if I mention briefly the conditions under which non-citizen wives and children of Singapore citizens are eligible to apply for permanent residence in the Republic. These are laid down in section 10 of the Immigration Ordinance, 1955, and in the consideration of applications various factors are taken into consideration; namely, (a) whether the marriage is lawful; (b) whether the wife and children qualify under paragraphs 4 and 5 of the Immigration (Prohibition of Entry) Order, 1966. i.e., whether the wife has not been living separately from the husband for a continuous period of five years after the date of the marriage, and whether the children are under six years of age.

Here, may I digress a little and take up the points raised by the Member for Delta on a specific case? She probably knows more about Chinese customs than I do. But my understanding is that the Chinese of this generation of about 50 years and over, more often than not, would prefer to take more than one wife! Here again, without going into the case specifically, I have my doubts whether this is a bona fide case of husband and wife because, normally, again I stand to be corrected, according to Chinese custom, usually the husband is much older than the wife. In this instance, the wife appears to be seven years older than the husband. Therefore, I think the application was not approved because the Immigration officials may have doubts whether that was a bona fide case of love at first sight, or whatever it is.

The Member for Delta also mentioned that they had not been living together for five years because attempts had been made during that time for the wife to gain entry here. First, the wife was sick and there was the question of permits. If they were so much in love and if the husband really required the presence of his wife here, it would not have taken five years to go through the official procedure. And if he could live - I presume that he lived well.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Point of clarification, Sir. The Minister should not forget that the cause of the delay was that the wife could not come here unless she is older than the specified age limit.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, this is a different matter, The Member says the woman had not reached the specified age. At first, probably the application was prepared wrongly. As far as I understand, the application was made on the ground that she is the wife of a local resident. If she is the wife of a local citizen, it is not the age that is to be taken into consideration. It is the other factors which I have mentioned.

I will now come to the third factor to which consideration will be given for admitting non-citizen wives and children of Singapore citizens. It is whether the husband is in a position to support his wife and children. We are not a hard-hearted Government and I believe the Ministers here have got feelings. At the same time, in deciding upon policy, we must not allow ourselves to be swayed by sentiment. The only sentiment we should allow ourselves to be swayed by is, is it for the good of Singapore? If it is for the good of Singapore, then we will carry out the policy. And once a policy has been decided, as my colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, has said, we must stand firm. On the question of entry permits, we do relax the regulations sometimes under exceptional circumstances, because of our feelings, our sentiments, and on humanitarian grounds. We are not that hard-hearted as was made out to appear by the Member for Delta.

I will now take up the suggestion put up by the Member for Changi that there should be closer liaison between the Registry of Marriages and the Immigration Department. He suggests that Singapore citizens who intend to marry non-citizens should be provided with a questionnaire. I do not know what questions he has in mind.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Questions like how much money the person has and whether he can support the woman.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, as I said, if a man is intent on, marrying a woman out of love, no amount of prevention by any Government official will stop that marriage. But I think we have announced time and time again - and I have just made it clear - the conditions under which we will allow a non-citizen wife to enter Singapore.

To take up the point again that we have no feelings, as my colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, said the other day, it is only those cases which have not been approved that come to Members' notice. Cases that have been approved do not come back to thank them for their assistance. For the information of Members, I would like to give some figures. In 1968, there were a total of 910 applications of Malaysian wives of Singapore citizens. Out of these 910 applications, 742 were approved. In 1969, out of 902 applications. 795 were approved. So you will see that we have not been very hard-hearted in enforcing this regulation, and whenever we can, we will let them through and make life happier for our citizens who have married non-citizen wives.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Hear, hear!

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, as regards applications which were not approved, namely, 168 in 1968 and 107 in 1969, these were mainly due to the fact that the husbands' income was low and they were not considered to have capacity lo support their wives, much less their children, later on in Singapore. I think that answers the point raised by the Member for Anson.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Point of clarification, Sir. I quite agree with the Minister's reply. But what happens if a citizen brings in a non-citizen wife and the next day he wins a lottery prize of $400,000?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, we do not gamble on the future of Singapore.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: But what about the lottery and the gambling that is now going on in Singapore?

Mr Lim Kim San: That is gambling. But I hope the Member for Anson will listen closely to me. I said we do not gamble on the future of Singapore. We take no chances with the future of Singapore.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes, I agree.

Mr Lim Kim San: I may not have heard the Member for Toa Payoh correctly. Singapore citizens do not require work permits to take up employment in Singapore. Is that the Member's question?

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: When they were in Malaysia, they had work permits in order to be able to work. When their work permits were withdrawn, they wanted to bring their families to Singapore. The men were allowed to come in, but not their wives and children.

Mr Lim Kim San: Their applications to bring in their wives and children would be governed by the three factors that I have mentioned. If they are economically viable, there is no reason why their wives and children cannot be allowed in. As I have indicated, about eight out of ten applications have been approved.

The Member for Telok Blangah asked why non-citizens have to pay $24.60 for a certificate of identity when citizens pay $25 for an international passport which is valid for five years. As a Singapore citizen, you have certain privileges. Surely we should treat our citizens better than non-citizens. And for these certain privileges - privileges over and above those not enjoyed by non-citizens, and I think every country does that - our citizens have got more responsibilities than non-citizens. I think the Member is also mistaken because the fee for a restricted certificate of identity for travelling to West Malaysia is only $5 and not $24.60. The sum of $24.60 is charged for an intemational certificate of identity for travel overseas other than West Malaysia.

3.15 p.m.

Mr N. Govindasamy: On a point of clarification, Sir. I think the present fee for a certificate of identity for travelling to Malaysia, including the re-entry permit charges, etc, is $24.60.

Mr Lim Kim San: May I take some time to check the figures again, Sir? Either the typist has made a mistake here or the Member has been misinformed. My information is that in the case of a restricted certificate of identity for direct travel between West Malaysia and Singapore, the fee is $5. However, I am willing to go back and seek further clarification. If there is a different charge for citizens and non-citizens, there is a very good reason for it. As far as possible, I will keep this distinction because it indicates how valuable Singapore citizenship is. A Singapore citizen has more privileges than a non-citizen. This is as it should be.

May I clarify how a certificate of identity is issued? It is governed by Article 28 of the United Nations Final Act and Convention. It is an International Geneva Agreement. It requires that before we can issue a certificate of identity to a person, he must produce documentary evidence from his country of birth that he is stateless, and if he can produce that evidence, then he will be issued with a certificate of identity with re-entry facilities upon application. This is to prevent anyone issuing a certificate of identity from infringing on the rights of the country in which the applicant is born. That is why the applicant is covered by an international convention. That is the law and, as the Member for Delta has said, laws are made by man and they can be un-made by man. She said that we must have some human consideration in the application of the law. We have shown human consideration here. That is why in genuine cases where special consideration justifies it, we issue a certificate of identity to a person who is normally not eligible for such travel facilities.

The Member for Telok Blangah has suggested that we should accept a telephone call as evidence. I think he has a higher regard for the honesty of the average man than we who have worked in the Government for some time have. I will not take the responsibility of directing my officer to accept a telephone call as genuine evidence.

The Member for Havelock wants to know the rationale for not issuing passports to Singapore citizens abroad who have forgotten or have not renewed their passports in time. There are many reasons, some of which I cannot divulge. It may be that during a person's stay abroad, he may have been involved in activities which constitute a security risk to us when he returns. May I remind Members that the issue of a passport to any applicant is not one of right? It is a privilege.

3.20 p.m.

The Chairman: It is "guillotine" time.

Mr Lim Kim San: I am sorry, Mr Speaker. I would like to reply further. However, I believe I have covered most of the points raised.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The time allotted for Head 0902 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong, was not proceeded with:

(2) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0902 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $2,183,710 for Head 0902 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1001 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.)

Mr Speaker, Sir, there have been a lot of cultural activities in Singapore in the past few years. More and more people have come to understand the importance of cultural activities in nation building. As I am very interested in cultural activities, I am pleased to see marked progress in this direction. I have spoken on cultural activities during the Adjournment debate in this House on two occasions. This was as long ago as 1966. I gave my views then on how to promote healthy cultural activities and foster a cultural consciousness among our people in order to help build our nation. Let me quote what I said on 5th December, 1966. It is in Hansard, Vol. 25, No. 7, col. 515. I said then that a healthy culture could imbue fine thinking in our people. On the other hand, yellow or degenerating culture could demoralise a people.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture (Mr Fong Sip Chee): On a point of order, Sir. Is the Member quoting from Hansard or a newspaper? Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member said he is quoting from Hansard, but he is reading from a newspaper.

The Chairman: That is what the Member said.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, may I clarify the position? The proceedings reported in Hansard are in English. This newspaper that I have here published the text of my speech in Chinese. I am quoting from this newspaper. It is the same as my speech in Hansard. I feel that the Parliamentary Secretary is trying to be too smart!

Mr Fong Sip Chee: I was trying to help him, Sir. He was quoting from a newspaper, although he said it was a translation from the Hansard. I would like to have some clarification whether what he was saying is actually the official translation of the Hansard, the newspaper translation, his own translation, or a translation by somebody else. I think it is the business of the House to know this.

The Chairman: The Parliamentary Secretary must understand that the Member for Sembawang cannot read English. So he has to get the translation done somewhere by somebody.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: The Member must indicate whether he is quoting from the newspaper or from the translation in the Hansard. I am quite prepared to accept it if he says he is quoting from a newspaper.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, since you have already made a ruling, I hope the Member will not make any unnecessary remarks.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Sir, I insist on a ruling.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo (Bukit Merah): (In Mandarin): I think the Member for Sembawang should not regard his speech in the newspaper as the official translation of his speech made in this House.

The Chairman: If the Member for Sembawang says he wishes to quote from a newspaper, we will accept it provided he gives the date and name of the newspaper.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, it comes to the same thing. It is the Sin Chew Jit Poh and the date of publication is 7th December, 1966. I am quoting from page 8. I made the following points then. Ours is a multi-racial society. We must develop the traditional cultures of the various races. We do not mean to do away with Western culture or to impose the culture of one race upon the other races.

Another paragraph deals with imported cultures. We should stop the import of poisonous cultures. As a newly independent Republic we should create our own culture and try to enrich it. Our culture should aim at enriching the life of our people. We should participate in and enjoy cultural activities which will help us achieve our objective of nation building. I will stop quoting here.

We should pursue a healthy cultural policy to help us in nation building. The People's Action Party's policy is to promote a healthy culture. But the question is whether the officials in the Ministry of Culture, or even the Minister himself and his Parliamentary Secretary, have carried out this policy. I would like to quote from the magazine, the Singapore Monthly, published on 15th March, wherein you will find some criticism of our culture. It says that the Government has put the onus on public officers to execute the policy of promoting a healthy culture to achieve its purpose of nation building. However, public officers do not understand the full significance of our policy. What with the administrative machinery and their poor understanding of the political situation, public officers do not understand the purpose of this policy and cannot implement it. They are, therefore, behind time. How can we expect anything good out of them? In the hands of such people, the policy implemented is different from what is envisaged.

3.30 p.m.

This is a very serious deviation. This goes to show that when certain officers implement Government policy, they do so not in the interests of the country or to meet the requirement of the age, but according to their personal whims and fancies. They totally disregard the policy of our Government.

Sir, from this we can see that the Minister in charge should seriously reconsider how best to promote our cultural policy. In fact, I should say that in the Adjournment debate in this House on 5th December, 1966, I made ten proposals on the matter of promoting culture in nation building. If the Minister has the time, he can refer to my speech to see whether any use can be made of these ten suggestions.

I have two suggestions to make here. First, we should organise a large-scale cultural festival every year to enable our youths to perform cultural activities for mutual emulation and study by the different races. Second, a certain professor has recently suggested the establishment of a scholarship for cultural pursuits. I think this is a very good suggestion. I wonder what the Minister thinks of it. If we can introduce this award for national cultural pursuits, then we will be able to help cultural activists to create more artistry in their songs, novels, dramas, and other fields of cultural activity. Thus they will be able to enrich the spiritual life of our people and make Singapore very much advanced in culture. I hope the Minister will consider my suggestions seriously.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Sembawang has raised a number of points on cultural policy. I would like to raise a few points too. These relate to what the Ministry of Culture should do.

I feel that it has for a very long time not done much. Singapore is not a cultural desert. Quite a large number of people are engaged in cultural activities and what they produce is of a high standard. But the Ministry has not established a close and proper relationship with cultural workers in improving our culture that is more in keeping with the policy of our Government. The Ministry should set up something like an Academy of Arts so that the people can engage in cultural activities.

Another point is this: other than the artistes and actors who have gone abroad, many of our local talent have not been able to go abroad to further their artistic pursuits because of their financial limitations. They have to rely on self-study. I think this type of people - actors, artistes, and so on, who are quite large in numbers - can at present have an opportunity to express their talent only in a limited way in the field of culture. They do not have much scope for expression, much less achieve the complete fruition of their talents. As a result, we have lost a great number of these talented people.

Take, for example, those amateurs who are engaged in the activities staged at the National Theatre. Very often they collect a few dollars' transport allowance whenever there is a rehearsal., If there is no rehearsal, they do not get any allowance for transport. They are only amateurs. Most of them have their own jobs. Their working hours are long, and they do not have an opportunity to engage in these cultural activities properly.

I think the Ministry of Culture should set up something like a national institute for our artistes, so that those people engaged in cultural activities can become professionals. They can also concentrate on their own fields, such as how to promote the standard of culture and how to give the people of Singapore a more colourful and richer cultural life.

Another point is this. Very often these days, the programmes we see on T.V. are, in fact, part of our cultural activities. These programmes have not been properly organised, and the cultural workers have not been given an opportunity to develop and to create talent. They become the tools and are at the beck and call of businessmen who organise the shows. If they are not wanted, they are chucked into the rubbish bin. I am afraid these people cannot survive on stage for very long.

The other point I would like to express is that many of our talented people have not been properly trained. The Ministry of Culture very often makes use of artistes and singers from abroad for their programmes, and they have been elevated to the height of heaven. Very often these foreign artistes are the main attraction of the shows, and the local people are only supporting stars. I cannot understand the logic of this. We are not doing our best to help local artistes express and develop their talents. This is contrary to what we should do to develop fully our local talent.

I have suggested just now that the Ministry of Culture should set up an institute for our artistes so that they can fully develop their ability. Our T.V. producers can then make use of their high standard of ability. In this way our T.V. viewers will receive proper educational and cultural values from these programmes. Otherwise we will only hear foreign stars singing such songs as "I am not going home today," which is a popular Chinese song. Very often we see the two comedians, the fat one and the thin one, on T.V. Other than these, we do not have very many programmes. I am afraid the present programmes are rather empty in cultural values. I hope the Minister will be able to do something in this direction and give an opportunity to our local artistes to develop their talent.

Mr Low Yong Nguan (Crawford): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of Culture was set up in 1959. At that time it was given a lot of duties, for example, to develop a sense of patriotism, and to instil in the people a higher set of values in order to eliminate racial prejudices, and so on. All these are but beautiful and grand talk and very pleasing to the ear. But what I would like to ask is: what has the Ministry of Culture done in all these years? What contribution has it made towards its objectives, especially in the field of mass education? What has it done to instil in our people a higher set of values?

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would also like to know what the Ministry of Culture has contributed in the past 10 years towards the cultivation of spiritual values? I completely disagree with the Member for Sembawang. If by promotion of a lively cultural standard, one refers to the programmes we see in the National Theatre and on T.V., such as the "All Stars" and variety shows

Mr Teong Eng Siong rose -

The Chairman: Mr Low, are you prepared to give way?

Mr Low Yong Nguan: (In Mandarin): No. If these programmes represent the set of values that the Ministry of Culture can promote, then I am afraid the Minister for Culture has done the people a great wrong. I remember the former Minister for Culture, who is now the Minister for Foreign Affairs, said in 1960, "Man is a product of his culture. Whether one is a Chinese, Malay, Jew or American is largely the result of cultural conditioning."

Mr Speaker, Sir, after all these 10 years, what sort of cultural environment have we given to the people of Singapore? How are we going to create the sort of environment that a Singaporean should have? Of course, the Acting Minister for Culture can say that we cannot suppress whatever the people would like to have, such as the new style of soul dances. But if we just allow things of this sort to continue, and if the Government can only give our people this, then we have wasted all the efforts made over the past 10 years. We have prolonged this unhealthy life of the people for 10 years.

3.45 p.m.

Before and during the time when we were in Malaysia, the Ministry of Culture did a lot of useful things in promoting some of our political tasks. Very often Government departments paid too much attention to politics and, as a result, they neglected their other duties.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am ashamed that very often I hear my friends describe the people of Singapore as being too materialistic. If we continue like this, we will become soulless animals. What we hear and talk about is materialistic achievements. For example, how to climb up and struggle for greater materialistic success. If we just concentrate on materialistic pursuits, we will gradually and slowly lose the ability to discriminate between right and wrong. We will begin to disregard the fundamental principles of righteousness.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the time has come for a change. I would like to ask the Minister for Culture what he has prepared for the new environment for Singapore. What sort of adjustment has he made to our cultural policy? I would also like to know whether the Ministry of Culture has any new set of objectives in giving our people a new and richer spiritual life, and what adjustments it has made since last May in cultivating right attitudes towards our neighbours amongst our people. I hope the Minister will pay a great deal more attention to these matters, because we cannot afford to make mistakes, to go wrong. I hope he will be able to correct any past mistakes because we cannot afford to go wrong. I am sure our acting Minister for Culture who, in the last ten years or more, has worked closely with our people and has actively tried to understand their aspirations, will not himself be affected by the new style in our political arena. I am sure he understands it better than I do. I hope he can express our cultural policy better and achieve better results, because I believe that, going on his past history, he will not do anything wrong to the people. He will not let them down. He will not do anything to please the new style or the new fashion in our culture. He will only do what he absolutely believes to be true.

I would also like to touch upon the environment of our writers. Writers in any progressive society have their status. In Singapore we believe in a progressive and democratic policy. Writers should have their rightful place in our society, but the fact is that this is not so. Let me draw a comparison. Whether a person is just a singer or a singing star, he is still a person who sings. In one case, there was a local singer or singing star and he cut a love song record. High officials in the Ministry of Culture gave a press conference for him. On the other hand, Mr Speaker, Sir, a well recognised, very capable and intelligent writer had to run around looking for advertisements so as to publish his works and make a cultural contribution to society. This writer is not given his rightful place in our democratic and progressive society. Mr Speaker, history has witnessed the rise and fall of great powers and writers were responsible for the fall of some regimes. Are we going to create an environment of discontent among our writers?

I want the Minister to take immediate steps to raise the social status of our writers. I have two suggestions to make. I will not say that they will completely solve our problem, but at least I hope our acting Minister for Culture will consider them carefully. I am sure he can, with his experience and expertise, come up with better suggestions.

One of my suggestions is the granting of honours to people of distinction in cultural fields. We have all sorts of awards, for example, the Public Service Award, the Sportsman of the Year Award and various other kinds of awards. But what are we going to do to raise the social status of our cultural workers and writers? Are we going to do nothing, to leave them out of all these? We should give them some sort of award too.

My second suggestion is that the Ministry should set up a publication bureau to help local writers publish their works. This will also help us in our task of nation building. Of course, I cannot shift everything on to the shoulders of the Government. I feel that writers themselves must also bear some share of this responsibility. They should organise themselves and I am sure some of them have already done so. In this way, they can consolidate and strengthen their position, exert an influence on our society, and strengthen the democratic forces of our people.

Mr Speaker, Sir, scholars and writers are important people. I am sure the Minister for Culture will do his best to cater for the aspirations of our scholars and writers. I hope he will do something for them so that they can take their rightful place in society, and to thank them for carrying out their sacred duty.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): When I made my speech just now, did I say something about the T.V. programmes? I think the Member for Crawford was feeling a bit sleepy when I was talking.

Mr Low Yong Nguan: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker. Sir, I believe that the Member for Sembawang will not deny that he has said that in the last few years we have had a lot of cultural activities. What I said was that if our cultural activities are reflected in what we see on T.V., then I deny that this is what we should have for our cultural activities. I cannot agree with the statement that this represents the cultural life of our people. In fact, this should not represent the cultural activities of our people.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): What I said was completely different from what the Member has said. If he wants to give his own explanation, it is his business.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, just now the Member for Delta mentioned T.V. programmes under this Head. I was going to speak on subhead 1371, and although she has already mentioned T.V. programmes, I would like to add some of my own views now.

Mr Speaker, Sir, television in Singapore today is a very popular form of entertainment. According to statistics, at the end of 1967 the number of television licences exceeded 80,000. Up to now the number of people who have purchased television sets has increased quite a lot. Almost all the community centres are equipped with television sets to provide entertainment for our people. Since television sets are so widely scattered in our country, we can see how important television programmes are in our task of nation building. The arrangement, design and production of our T.V. programmes will exercise a great deal of influence, either directly or indirectly, on our people, so they must be undertaken with the greatest care and in keeping with the values we are trying to inculcate at this initial stage of our nation building. We should not go about it haphazardly. We should not concentrate on entertainment alone. We should pay attention to this problem - how are we going to encourage our people to play their part in nation building through the aid of these programmes? There is a Chinese saying that in everything we do, the beginning is the most difficult. The task of nation building is in the initial stage and it depends a great deal upon our work. We can depend upon our human resources only in this task. The foundation and development of nation building will depend on the incessant efforts and hard work of our people. Thus will our nation building grow, flourish and bear fruit. If our people do not work hard, if they are weak, slow and unintelligent, and indulge all the time only in unhealthy activities, then I think even if we have the best plans in the world, our nation building will completely collapse. Mr Speaker, Sir, what I mean to say is that Television Singapore should not produce entertainment programmes only. These must go hand in hand with other kinds of programmes in our task of nation building.

4.00 p.m.

But our Radio and Television Singapore have failed to do this. The programmes they produce are simply for the sake of entertainment and are full of unhealthy sounds. These programmes are popular with our young people and small children, so much so that they are completely absorbed in them. Even in their dreams, as the Member for Delta has pointed out, they will utter sentences like, "I will never forget you," and "I am not coming home today." Some of them do the twist or the Hawaiian dance on their beds. If we allow this state of affairs to continue, then our young people who will be the future pillars of our society will become decadent and rotten.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have seen certain countries producing programmes of recreational value, for example, programmes of songs and dances. And they make use of them to educate, guide and encourage the people to play their part in the task of nation building, how to make their country stronger and more prosperous, and how to love and protect their country. These programmes have not only made the country more lively and energetic, but they have also enriched the people's lives. This is what I mean when I say that entertainment programmes should also go hand in hand with programmes on nation building.

Sir, we are democratic and pragmatic socialists. We believe in the truth of the Chinese saying that we must learn from the good points of others so that we can improve ourselves.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I want to speak on the programme Woman's World over Radio and on Television Singapore. The items in this programme cover cookery, dress-making, flower arrangement and application of cosmetics. I do not see how these topics are going to encourage our women folk, who number almost one million, in the task of nation building, and to tackle our challenging and trying era. Furthermore, I have my doubts whether these programmes can raise the social values of our women. I think the producers of these programmes will only tie our women down. As such, fifty per cent of the motivating force of our country will be tied down in the kitchen and in the bedroom. Sir, we want to encourage our women to stand by the side of the men and play their part in the task of nation building.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: (In Tamil): Mr Speaker, Sir, there is a programme called Breakfast Bulletin which is broadcast at 7.10 a.m. every morning. I feel that the time allotted to it is too short and it is impossible to give a full report of the parliamentary proceedings in this programme. The acting Minister for Culture may say that a full report of the parliamentary debates is broadcast in the evening. But then most people watch T.V. in the evening and may not listen to this programme. Therefore, I urge the Minister to extend the time for Breakfast Bulletin, so that our people may know all about the parliamentary debates. The Ministers' and Parliamentary Secretaries' speeches are fully broadcast, but the speeches of Backbenchers are not. Therefore, the Minister should request the Director of Broadcasting to broadcast all the speeches of Back-benchers.

Sir, although Singapore is a small country, it has many industries. We should inform our people of the success of our industrialisation programme and the progress of our country. In this way, our people will know what is happening in Singapore. The appropriate programme to do this is the Breakfast Bulletin. Therefore, if the time of this programme is extended, these items can be included. I have been informed that the Broadcasting authorities have allotted only a limited time to Breakfast Bulletin. I do not know on what basis they allot times for programmes. The Breakfast Bulletin should not only include Ministers' speeches, but should also include speeches of Backbenchers. In this way, the people will know what their M.P.s have said in Parliament. And in the elections, they will know what their M.P.s have done for them. Otherwise they may ask, what have their M.P.s done for them if they do not hear or read about their speeches in Parliament?

The Chairman: Mr Wee Toon Boon.

The Acting Minister for Culture (Mr Wee Toon Boon): Mr, Speaker, Sir, I believe there are many Members who wish to speak on Broadcasting. I prefer to hear them before I reply.

The Chairman: All right. Mr Ho.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I share the sentiments of my colleagues who have aired their views on the cultural matters of our country. Culture should be coordinated with political development in order to enrich the spiritual lives of our people and also to educate, inspire and instil enthusiasm in them through artistic forms, especially at this juncture of nation building. The people are entitled to healthy cultural activities in order to encourage them to take part in nation building. Radio and television are important media for educating our people. However, it is regrettable that our radio and television programmes have not followed a specific cultural policy. If there is any policy at all, it is the policy of the Director of Broadcasting himself. Sir, if the Director is well versed in culture, then there will not be so many complaints. Unfortunately, in the past few years the incumbents in this post have been civil servants and they are not cultural workers. In other words, they do not specialised in cultural activities. Hence, in the last few years, radio and television programmes have not been able to keep up with our political development. Although Radio and Television Singapore has made improvements recently, most of the programmes, as the Member for Paya Lebar has said, consist of decadent songs. Some comic sketches are meaningless and vulgar. Television has degenerated into a night club where singers perform their art.

4.15 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I also note that many members of the audience made criticisms and suggested improvements to R.T.S. in the press. At first, they were replied to. However, lately R.T.S. has stopped replying to the complaints made. Instead they have even blamed the editors of the press for criticising the Television and Broadcasting Services and for publishing letters of complaints. Not only have they not accepted the criticisms of the public, but they have also reprimanded those who made such complaints.

Another point I wish to raise is that too many advertising programmes are shown on T.V. There is no sense exercised in selection. The impression given is that Television Singapore has now become a forum where commercial enterprises may make use of T.V. to sell their products. We must not give too much thought to making money in this manner. Our T.V. policy should not be based solely on making profit out of commercial advertising.

Some Members have expressed their discontent with our cultural policy. I agree with them. We are trying to instil a sense of patriotism in our students and build a rugged society. However, in cultural matters we are not giving our people the right material. This will have a demoralising effect on them. In view of what I have said, I hope the Minister will seriously review the content of our T.V. programmes and radio broadcasting. He should overhaul the whole policy and keep it in line with our policy on nation building.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have an amendment* standing in my name in respect of broadcasting. We have just heard the Minister say that he preferred to answer all the points raised together. With your permission, may I speak on the Broadcasting Department?

• The amendment reads as follows:

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, last year this House approved a supplementary estimate of $50,000 to enable the Broadcasting Department to purchase stereophonic broadcasting equipment costing some $65,000. Sir, we were told that in commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the founding of Singapore, stereophonic broadcasting was commenced last year. I am told that in order to receive stereophonic broadcasts, the radio should be fitted with an attachment known as a decoder. Unless this is done, no stereophonic sound can be heard. Can the Minister inform this House whether the Broadcasting Department has ascertained the number of receivers in Singapore which are fitted with this device in order to enjoy stereophonic music? If it has not undertaken such a survey, can it do so?

I personally feel that there are very few radio sets in Singapore equipped to receive stereophonic music. I am, therefore, wondering if the amount that we have spent on the purchase of the stereophonic equipment has been worthwhile. I am also told that nowadays dealers who sell radio sets equipped with decoders remove the attachments before they sell the radio sets in order, of course, to sell the decoders separately and make more money. I am told that sometimes a decoder may cost as much as $50. I am wondering if the Broadcasting Department can undertake to see that where radio sets are already equipped with decoders, such decoders are not removed before the sale of the radio sets to the public. If there is no such tampering, the people who buy modern radio receivers can enjoy stereophonic music which the Broadcasting Department is able to produce now.

The Broadcasting Department has expanded very rapidly during the last few years. However, going through the estimates, I see that the establishment has not kept pace with the expansion of the services that it is trying to provide. As a result, the services are not very satisfactory. We hear of innumerable mistakes both from the Television Service and the Broadcasting Service. There have been no less than three instances in the last year or so when I myself heard broadcasts of speeches attributed to me when, in actual fact, they should have been attributed to my colleague, the Member for Anson. I do not mind if what the Member for Anson has said is attributed to me. But I do not know what his feelings will be. What is a little more disturbing is the fact that the Television Service and Broadcasting Service could not differentiate between a Back-bencher on this side of the House and a Parliamentary Secretary on the other side. Recently, the Member for Moulmein had a bash at the government and he was referred to as the Parliamentary Secretary having a dig at Government. My sympathy is with the Parliamentary Secretary referred to for the embarrassment which the Broadcasting Department caused him. Mistakes of this nature should not be made that easily. Although the staff in the Broadcasting Department may be overworked, I think they should be a little more careful when making reports of this nature. The Prime Minister made a speech recently in Joo Seng Community Centre. However, the very next day it was reported that he made a speech at the Joo Chiat Community Centre. I know, Mr Speaker, Sir, Joo Chiat Community Centre is in your constituency. Perhaps it is better known than the Joo Seng Community Centre. Anyway, I do not know how this simple mistake could have been made.

Perhaps the Minister has noted these matters. I hope he will take the necessary precautions to see that mistakes of this kind are not repeated often. It is understandable if it is made once or twice, but when the Member for Anson says something and my photograph appears on T.V., I begin to wonder when I have said these things.

The Member for Jurong has referred just now to the frequency of advertisements on T.V. and that too much consideration should not be given to commercial advertising. The frequency with which they interfere with the regular programmes can sometimes be very upsetting. I do not see any reason why the advertisements cannot be shown either at the beginning or the end of a programme. To show advertisements every five minutes will not make people enjoy watching the T.V. programme as much as they would like to. Sometimes it helps, of course, if one is going for a drink when there is an advertisement on, but not everybody would like to do that. I hope the Minister will take this into consideration and look into the possibility of showing commercials in between programmes and not during the programmes every five or ten minutes.

Another point I wish to make is selectiveness in commercial advertisements. We have heard so much of cigarettes and the spread of cancer and so on. I wonder whether it is worth the amount we make from commercial advertisements to continue with this form of advertising cigarettes. In almost every programme at one time or another we see advertisements for cigarettes staring at us. Surprisingly, Sir, the tunes that they use in advertising cigarettes are so catchy that I have heard children sing them. Sir, let us not waste too much on this aspect of commercialisation. I would suggest that we be a little more selective in commercial advertising.

Mr J. F. Conceicao: Sir, I wish to speak on broadcasting.

The Chairman: There have been many speakers, and the Member must give the Minister a chance to reply.

Mr Conceicao: I abide by your decision, Sir, and will not take up too much of the time of the House. Thank you very much for allowing me to add my little sound to the thunder that has arisen over broadcasting. With regard to the points that have been raised by Members about relating our broadcasting policy to national purposes, I would like to suggest that greater attention be given to the process of what I might describe as cross-cultural education. By this I imply that I do not think sufficient is being done to familiarise people of one cultural background with the forms and expressions of another cultural background. For example, it would be interesting to know how much Indian music and dance, Chinese opera or traditional Malay art is being put across to those who view programmes in the English medium. I think this kind of activity would be a big step forward in raising the cultural level of programmes about which we have had several suggestions from the House.

I have another point to make. It is not enough just to give a presentation of a bare performance. There should be an explanation as well. In this way people will find it easier to understand, and, with this understanding, there may come a deeper appreciation of the programme, so that on this basis we hope that the climate may be appropriate for patronage and encouragement of all the performing arts.

A point has also been raised regarding commercial advertisements. I would like to add my voice in support of what the Member for Telok Blangah has said, that consideration should be given to removing all commercial advertisements for cigarettes from the air. I do feel that these advertisements are couched in such persuasive, seductive and alluring terms that they may have an effect on those of our people who have not yet acquired the habit of smoking. With regard to those people who have already become addicts, I do not suppose much can be done. But thinking of the younger people I suggest it would be better to balance the health of the young people against the revenue that we get out of cigarette advertisements.

4.30 p.m.

Finally, I would like to say that since we have research officers in the Ministry of Culture, some attempt should be made to find out what the people really think about our programmes - to find out their tastes, and what the audience-rating is like. In this way we can provide them with what they want. And if what they want is healthy, we can provide it; if not, we can devise some method of educating our listeners by giving them more desirable programmes.

Mr Lee Teck Him (Ulu Pandan): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank you for giving me permission to speak. If we do not have food, we will die. If a person has no spiritual food, he will die a spiritual death. Therefore, we must have spiritual food. What is meant by spiritual food? It means all the healthy forms of art.

Many of my colleagues have criticised the T.V. and broadcasting programmes, for example, that the films are all yellow in content. Many people dare not watch this kind of films. This means that they have no spiritual food to feed on. It seems that this is due to a lack of healthy cultural activities in our country. Therefore, I sincerely urge the Minister to import certain films from China to give Chinese viewers an opportunity to watch them. Films from China should be allowed to be imported. We should not be afraid of the propaganda influence of these films, because these films have a healthy cultural and recreational content. If they smack of Communist propaganda, of course, we must not import them. I think our enlightened Minister for Culture should consider this, otherwise he will die, and I will also die, a spiritual death. Why? Because we lack spiritual food. Therefore, spiritual food is very essential to our cultural life.

Next, I would like to touch on fire crackers on Chap Goh Meh and Chinese New Year.

The Chairman: Mr Lee, what have fire crackers to do with culture?

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Yes, they have something to do with culture. We should not say that cracker firing is no good, and we should not ban the import of fire crackers. We must look into the technique of producing good fire crackers. When our Prime Minister toured the constituencies, many fire crackers were fired. Even when our Ministers toured the constituencies, a lot of crackers were fired. The firing of crackers is a good omen. Even the Malays and the Indians are now indulging in cracker-firing. Therefore, I urge the Minister not to ban totally the import of crackers or the firing of crackers.

Mr Wee Toon Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will first deal with the criticisms of the organisation and structure of the programmes presented by Radio and Television Singapore. I appreciate the concern expressed by Members on programmes which do not effectively contribute to a sense of participation in national construction and development, and which lack educational and cultural values. It would appear that Members have come to this conclusion purely on the basis of local entertainment production, like the Chinese variety shows, and of imported films, particularly those which depict crime, violence and sex. However, before I deal with these criticisms, may I be permitted to put in proper perspective the general planning and presentation of programmes which will have the desired psychological and sociological impact?

The programme structure is broadly divided into three main groups, namely, information, education, and entertainment. Information and education programmes are of two categories. One category is our own production, and the other category is foreign production. Our own production covers such items as news, social and current affairs, programmes for children and youths, programmes especially designed for women, programmes on music, literary and art appreciation and criticism, etc., and finally, sports programmes. It is not possible for me to itemise the programmes in detail but, very broadly, social and current affairs would include topics on Singapore's development, debates and forums on various matters of national interest, opinions and discussions, and interviews with prominent personalities.

In regard to foreign productions, films or video tapes are obtained for programmes for children, on music, literary and art appreciation, and so on. There are also programmes on general matters such as science, business management, foreign affairs, animal life, adult education, history, and so on. Entertainment programmes involve drama, the arts, and variety shows, and they comprise both local and foreign productions

From the above prospectus of the programmes, Members will appreciate that every effort is being made to achieve an overall balanced programme structure. It is not entirely true that all local and imported items lack cultural or educational value. Members seem to have arrived at this conclusion by merely pin-pointing the Chinese variety show. I agree that this show does not possess either a cultural or an educational background, as its purposes is merely to provide pure entertainment. Some of the songs and sketches leave much to be desired, because of the suggestive content, and so are the dances in which the participants are sometimes inadequately attired. In so far as the songs are concerned, Members will appreciate that we have to depend to a large extent on imported material. Until we are in a position to produce our own songs of good quality, however, I have instructed the producers to exercise more care in the selection and production of items in this regard.

I would say that the present inadequacies in the overall programme structure arise mainly from the fact that there is a paucity of locally-produced programmes of songs, dances, plays, and sketches, with a cultural or educational theme. It is through such programmes that we can inculcate a sense of belonging and a sense of participation in national construction.

I have already pointed out the existing inadequacies to my officials who are now in the process of reviewing and reorganising the programmes for the current year. There are, however, limitations at the moment in producing these types of programmes because, unlike other countries where professional talent is on tap easily, we in Singapore do not have an organised pool of talent which can be easily tapped for radio and T.V. purposes. There is a lack of creative skills for composing music, writing plays and sketches, and producing dances. If there are more local writers and composers with creative skills, who could produce work reflecting national and cultural values, we could get a greater supply of suitable material for such programmes. There is, therefore, an urgent need of our local writers and composers to produce more plays, songs and dances. Dramatic societies, music and dance schools, and other cultural organisations should come forward and actively participate in the production of such programmes. This would facilitate the production of programmes of an aesthetic and cultural value.

I would, however, like to address some caution in this regard. R.T.S. is not a commercial organisation with monetary profit as the prime objective. It is a public service and, therefore, subject to limitations of funds. Those who participate in the programmes cannot expect high monetary reward. But in the interest of the nation and, in particular, in the pursuit of cultural development, I sincerely hope that local talent will actively co-operate in the production of better and meaningful programmes. The result of such co-operation would be of immense value; firstly, writers and artistes will find an avenue to display their talents and, secondly, they would have, through their works, developed national consciousness and stimulated cultural values.

As far as films are concerned, in the absence of a film industry in Singapore, we have to import foreign films in selecting films, care is taken to ensure that those which over-emphasise crime, violence and sex are not screened. Films depicting human interest, like "Then Came Bronson", adventures such as "Tarzan", and domestic comedies like "My Three Sons", are also screened.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in the review and reorganisation of the programme structure now in progress, R.T.S. should be able to correct existing inadequacies and provide wholesome and healthy programmes containing educational and cultural values consonant with our national needs.

Sir, I wonder if it is time for a tea break.

The Chairman: You may carry on, Mr Wee.

Mr Wee Toon Boon: Up to what time, Mr Speaker, Sir?

The Chairman: How long will you take, Mr Wee?

Mr Wee Toon Boon: I will take some time to finish my reply, although I have dealt with the subject of broad-casting.

The Chairman: You can carry on, Mr Wee.

Mr Wee Toon Boon: Mr Speaker, I really do not know how much time I have, but I shall attempt to answer all the queries raised by Members. As far as criticisms on the Broadcasting Department are concerned, I have given the general policy of the Department on the proposed reconstruction and organisation of the programmes. I shall reserve the other details later if I have the time.

4.45 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Crawford seems not to understand what the Ministry of Culture has done for the past ten years to promote culture. He must appreciate that we became an independent country only a few years ago. Prior to that, we had self-government status, and did not have absolute political power.

If you want to promote culture, you have to achieve political freedom first. Without political freedom you will not be able to develop your culture. That is why in the past we often accused the colonial power of suppressing our culture during our struggle for political freedom. I think this fact will refute the Member for Crawford's allegation that for the past ten years we have been too absorbed in the political struggle and have neglected the cutural development of our nation. Now that we have acquired our political power, that is, we are a people of our own, we can promote our own culture. In this respect, Mr Speaker, Sir, may I say that we are a migrant society. Therefore, we have first to create a sense of belonging among those of our people who are citizens of this country. Then we have to try to promote and develop a culture of our own. So I fail to understand the allegation from the Member for Crawford that in the past ten years we have not achieved anything in this respect. Culture is not something which you can develop overnight. It takes years. Further, it cannot be done on instructions or orders or policy directives from the Government. Everyone in the country has to co-operate, to work and to dedicate himself to the cause. Therefore it takes time.

Both the Members for Crawford and Sembawang raised the question of cultural awards. I consider this a very good idea. Although Singapore is an independent country, there is a relative dearth of creative cultural works in music, dance and literature. Before we can consider any plans to award prizes, we should endeavour earnestly to stimulate the growth of cultural works in various areas. Members will appreciate that there are difficulties in the immediate implementation of a system of cultural awards. For instance, there may be a few outstanding persons in some of the fields, and it would appear that they would merit awards, when, in point of fact, they have very little or no competition to face. When more individuals come forward with high standards, then the outstanding ones will be forced to improve their standard, and this will make for a raising of standards as a whole. Then there will be competition and any awards will be meaningful. Then again, in some fields, the standard, as the persons themselves, I think, will readily admit, has much room for improvement. Members will appreciate that to give an award to the best candidate among many mediocre entries will not be a very appropriate token. Thirdly, such awards must be properly organised and the inherent difficulties of the scheme must be carefully worked out. For instance, it must be clearly defined what standards ought to be set for each area of culture, who may qualify for such awards, distinguishing the professionals from the amateurs, and the extent, the value and The status of such awards. On balance, therefore, I am of the opinion that there should firstly, be general encouragement from the public and organisations, and funds to improve the general standards and, secondly, when the standards have generally improved, appropriate schemes can be worked out.

I would like to illustrate, by way of example, what happened when the National Library in 1968 organised on behalf of U.N.E.S.C.O. a national contest for award of a prize to the author of the best manuscript written in any of the four official languages in Singapore on a cultural, literary or popular science topic most suitable for new reading audiences and/or children and juveniles. A sum not exceeding $1,525, representing one prize, was to be awarded to the prize-winning author. The response to the contest was surprisingly poor. Only a total of 15 manuscripts were received - two Malay, five Chinese and eight English. As none of the entries was of sufficient merit, no award was received by any of the contestants.

I appreciate that the object in raising this matter is probably that cultural awards would stimulate the growth of cultural pursuits. However, from the example of the U.N.E.S.C.O. competition, which I have just illustrated, it will be seen that we will be putting the cart before the horse if, at this juncture, we decide to give cultural awards before standards are improved. The immediate problem, as I see it, is one of generating the necessary stimuli to our cultural efforts. There are, however, certain drawbacks. For example, a person may have a flair for writing or composing music, but he is precluded by economic realities from pursuing his preference. It is not surprising, therefore, that those who would otherwise be able to contribute to the enrichment of cultural activities find refuge in some other more remunerative employment.

One way of overcoming this difficulty would be for those interested in different areas of culture to organise themselves into working groups or associations with the object of co-ordinating their activities and improving standards. The Ministry will, as far as possible, assist them in setting up such an association. Let us take the case of writers who unfortunately have not been able to come together because of factionalism and unprincipled vituperation. If they avoided this, they could create an atmosphere conducive to the development of literary work, and mass media like newspapers, television and radio could be utilised to publicise their vvorks.

Ways and means can also be found to stimulate reading habits among our people. Wherever possible, educational institutions could be encouraged to use suitable works as reading material for students.

Mr Speaker, Sir, all the assistance in the world will not help if the local people do not dedicate themselves to the development of cultural pursuits in different areas. If this is done, then Singapore could, with the co-operation of all concerned, enhance her cultural prestige.

What I am trying to put across is not that we do not want to encourage culture. We want to encourage and build our own culture. Here I must say once again that this is not the job of the Government alone, but is the work of everyone, especially the artistes, the writers and those who are involved in cultural work. Apart from these people who are directly concerned with cultural work, others could also help in the development of culture. Take the Member for Crawford, for instance. If he is really sincere in wanting to assist in the development of our culture, he could, in his capacity as adviser to his community centre, the Citizens' Consultative Committee and other committees, assist cultural development in a practical way. For instance, we have encouraged many local talents, such as Mr Lee Kum Sing, a well-known pianist, to put up shows and recitals. When Mr Lee Kum Sing is performing abroad, he is very well received. People have to pay exorbitantly to hear his recitals. However, when he comes back here and, with our encouragement, stages a recital at very cheap admission fees so that the people are given an opportunity to appreciate his music, the attendance, much to my disappointment, is very poor. This is where the Member for Crawford, as an advocate of the promotion of culture, can help, if he has any function in his community centre, either in commemoration of an anniversary or other ceremonies, I would suggest to him that, instead of wasting his time and money on organising dinners and variety shows, he could hold, say, exhibitions of paintings and stage serious music performances and the like. This would be a direct contribution to the development of our culture, because the fact is that -

Mr Low Yong Nguan rose -

The Chairman: Mr Wee, would you like to give way to Mr Low Yong Nguan?

Mr Wee Toon Boon resumed his seat.

Mr Low Yong Nguan: With due respect to the Minister, firstly, I hope he is not doubting my sincerity as a Member of Parliament, because, if he does, Mr Speaker, Sir, I will of course take strong objection to it. Secondly, I hope he will refrain from making a closer examination of my activities in the Crawford Community Centre of which I am very proud.

Mr Wee Toon Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the fact is this. Everyone has agreed that we should develop and promote healthy culture so that our people and the younger generation can be properly brought up.

In the past, because of our political struggle and other circumstances, the development of culture was neglected. Chinese pop music from Hong Kong and Taiwan has a bad influence on our people here. If all Members in this House really want to develop a healthy culture, such as an appreciation of classical music and the like, I would urge them first to assist the Ministry of Culture in cutting down the influence of pop music. Eventually, the healthy type of culture will be on the way up and the yellow type of culture will dwindle day by day.

5.00 p.m.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the acting Minister for Culture has not answered my question whether the Government intends to hold a cultural festival every year so that artistes from the various races can perform at this festival.

Mr Wee Toon Boon: Sir, that is a good suggestion and I will give it active consideration.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, since the Minister has given a detailed reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments were not moved:

Mr J. F. Conceicao:

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1006.

Mr Ang Nam Piau:

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1051.

Mr J. F. Conceicao:

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

Mr P. Govindaswamy:

Mr N. Govindasamy:

Mr J. F. Conceicao:

Mr Ho Kah Leong:

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301.

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1355.

Mr Tay Boon Too:

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1371.

Mr J. F. Conceicao:

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1488.

(9) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1521.

(10) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1601.

Mr P. Govindaswamy:

(11) Thai the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1631.

Mr J. F. Conceicao:

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(12) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1701.

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(13) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1705.

The Chairman: We have exactly four minutes before "guillotine" time on the Ministry of Culture. Mr N. Govindasamy, amendment (14).

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2156.

Sir, I just want to know the criteria by which part-time announcers and artistes are auditioned and selected for the Department of Broadcasting. Can the Department not recruit new talents so that we can see new faces and hear new voices, instead of the same part-time people year in and year out for the last ten years or so? I do not mind if they are permanent employees.

Mr Wee Toon Boon: Mr Speaker. Sir, I will be very brief in my reply, because I want to give the Member for Geylang Serai a chance to move the next amendment.

Sir, part-time employees are required by the Department of Broadcasting whenever they are required, and also because of the inability of the Department to fill the vacancies. In certain cases, talents are required to put up a show.

As far as part-time news-readers are concerned, they have to go through an audition before a committee which comprises members of the Public Service Commission and the Department. Artistes who are taken on a part-time basis also have to go through an audition.

The Member for Telok Blangah also wants to know why these people are not frequently changed.

Mr N. Govindasamy: They are not changed at all!

Mr Wee Toon Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Department is continuously testing and auditioning new talents and news-readers. Unless they are of the standard required, we are unable to put on more new faces to appease the Member for Telok Blangah.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

5.05 p.m.

The Chairman: It is "guillotine" time.

The time allotted for Head 1001 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the names of Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap, Mr Low Yong Nguan, and Madam Chan Choy Siong, was not proceeded with:

(15) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1001 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $17,553,630 for Head 1001 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: I propose to lake the suspension now

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting of the House now and shall take the Chair again at 5.35 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.06 p.m. until 5.35 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.35 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 1101 -

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.)

Sir, under this amendment, I would like to raise this point and I hope the Minister will pay careful attention to it. I have previously raised this matter twice in this House, but it has not been resolved. Therefore, I hope the Minister will seriously consider it. This concerns the setting up of a fire station in Jurong. I am sure the Minister must be aware that the development of Jurong Town has been very rapid. At present, there are more than 200 factories in Jurong and more than 20,000 residents. Many factories are engaged in chemical work, and inflammable materials are used. Jurong is a big town and yet there is no fire station at all. This is ridiculous.

I understand that in 1968, there were 25 fire calls in Jurong, four of which were false alarms. In 1969, there were 21 fire calls, four of which were false alarms. There were at least two fires which razed part of the factories to the ground.

Sir, in the past, in answering my question, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs said that there are already fire stations in Alexandra and Bukit Timah and there is no necessity of having another fire station in Jurong Town.

The Chairman: Mr Ho, the Fire Brigade comes under Head 1103.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Yes, Sir. But as I have given the reason for moving this amendment under this head at the beginning of my speech, may I be allowed to proceed?

The Chairman: All right, Mr Ho.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Thank you, Sir. As I was saying, there are fire stations at Alexandra and Bukit Timah but they are quite a distance from Jurong Town. It takes at least 15 minutes to reach Jurong Town from Alexandra and Bukit Timah if there is no traffic along the way. Sir, the road to Jurong is very busy nowadays. It is not like before. During peak hours, the traffic is heavy along this road. If a fire were to break out at a factory during peak hours, the factory would be completely burnt down before the arrival of a fire engine.

Sir, I urge the Minister to consider seriously the setting up of a fire station in Jurong Town so that the factories and the residents there will feel secure.

The Minister for Social Affairs (Inche Othman Bin Wok): Mr Speaker, Sir, a provision for a Jurong fire station was made in the 1968 Development Estimates, as the Member for Jurong has said. But it was subsequently deleted from the 1969-70 Development Estimates because, at that time, we were thinking of the proximity of the Bukit Timah and Alexandra Fire Stations to Jurong Town. However, Sir, my Ministry is seriously reconsidering this matter and will ask the Ministry of Finance for funds to construct a fire station in Jurong. Until funds are provided, I am afraid construction cannot be proceeded with.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I have heard this explanation more than once. I hope the Minister will consider this matter seriously and ask the Minister for Finance for the necessary funds to set up a fire station in Jurong Town. Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1051*

(*The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong).

Sir, in recent years, our sports and athletic activities have been carried out with the encouragement of our Government. And with the joint efforts of sports organisations, they have been lively. In this respect, the Sports Division under the Ministry of Social Affairs has made a good contribution. Undoubtedly, the Government has tried its best to promote sports activities. For instance, every year the Government has been holding sports festivals in order to raise the standard of our sports. What is more laudable is that the Government has allocated a large sum of money to set up a grand National Stadium at Kallang. The foundation stone was laid in January this year by the Minister for Finance. On this occasion, the Minister said that the Government had laid down its policies on defence, sports and other activities. As regards sports, the Government's policy is to encourage more and more people to take part in it. The second objective is to raise the standard of sports and athletics in order to win more international awards and prizes. When the National Stadium is completed, we will be able to organise international and regional competitions to promote sports and athletics.

5.45 p.m.

Now let me talk about how to raise the standard of sports. First of all. I would like to ask whether the Sports Promotion Division is able to engage national coaches. We must engage them if we are to raise the standard of sports. Of course, we do have coaches for basket-ball, football and volley-ball, but they are mostly amateur coaches whose knowledge and methods are too limited to be really effective. I would like to ask whether the Ministry is prepared to engage full-time national coaches for athletics and other sports, for example, badminton, volley-ball, and table-tennis, in order to raise the standard of the participants.

We have achieved a high standard in swimming. Our swimmers have won awards in international competitions. I hope they will continue to maintain this record. I would like to ask the Minister whether he has any plans to develop further our potential in swimming.

Also, can the Minister inform the House whether there are any plans to inculcate a sense of patriotism in our athletes and sportsmen? It is not enough for sportsmen to excel in sports. They should have a sense of patriotism so that they are prepared to work hard to attain the highest possible standard and win honour for our country. If they lack a sense of patriotism, then they will tend to take things easy. They will think that winning or losing in competition means nothing. This will nullify our efforts to raise the standard of sports. That is why I wish to know whether the Minister has any plans to inculcate a sense of patriotism and civic consciousness in our sportsmen.

We should send more teams abroad to take part in tournaments. Only in this way can we hope to raise our standards. For instance, in the case of badminton, there is only one open championship tournament in Singapore a year. There are only a few occasions when our badminton players go abroad to take part in international tournaments. Thus we find it difficult to raise our badminton standard. In order to do so, we should send our players to countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and take part in international meets. At present the badminton standard of Malaysia and Indonesia is higher than that of Singapore. If we can have badminton matches with them, we can perhaps learn something from them and in this manner raise our badminton standard. May I ask the Minister whether he has any plans in this connection?

Finally, can he tell us when the National Sports Stadium will be completed and what are the facilities that will be provided? I believe that this stadium with all its facilities will go a long way towards promoting sports in our country.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will first answer the last question from the Member for Sembawang. The National Stadium is scheduled to be completed on 1st June, 1972. This is the first phase of the National Sports Complex. The second phase will commence in 1972 with the building of two indoor stadium, nine tennis courts and one Olympic-sized swimming pool. It is an open-air pool. It is hoped to commence the third phase in 1975 with the construction of a rapid transit transportation system, a multi-storey car park, an entertainment centre, an exhibition centre, a first-class hotel and a floating restaurant.

Sir, the Ministry is aware of the importance of instilling a feeling of national pride, or what the Member has said a sense of patriotism, not only in our sportsmen but also in every citizen of Singapore. The higher the achievement in sports, the more will our sportsmen be proud to represent our country. In spite of its limited staff, the Sports Promotion Division is doing all it can to promote sports in Singapore.

One of the means to improve the standard of sports is by encouraging and holding international and local competitions. For example, in the annual Pesta Sukan last year, 19 countries took part and about 1,027 local and foreign athletes participated.

Another way of improving standards is by arranging for foreign coaches to come to Singapore to coach our sportsmen and sportswomen. The Member has asked whether the Ministry is thinking of engaging national coaches. In the past we did engage three coaches. One was a professional football coach. He has gone back to his country now. We still have professional coaches for basket-ball and rugger. Both of them are still in Singapore. The engagement of professional coaches is a very expensive business. However, we have managed to arrange for them to come to Singapore. We have also been able to find sponsors to meet the cost of engaging these coaches. Part of the expenses have come from the Sports Promotion Fund.

Moreover, the Sports Promotion Division also gives financial grants to our teams to go abroad to compete in international tournaments, and to associations to invite foreign teams to compete in Singapore. Here again it is a very expensive business. We would like to send more teams to compete in international competitions abroad, but there is always the question of finance. We hope that our sportsmen and sportswomen will improve their standard by all these means.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the Minister's satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1121.

The Chairman: Madam Chan Choy Siong is not here. Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap, amendment (5).

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap (Geylang Serai): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead 1141.

Mr Speaker, Sir, with the establishment of the Majlis Ugama Islam in Singapore, Muslims in the Republic hope that it will be able to safeguard and administer all matters connected with the Muslims. In general, they expect the Majlis to safeguard their interests and to protect the laws of Islam. They are grateful that, with the establishment of the Majlis, the collection of tithes has been centralised. All collections of tithes have been distributed to those Muslims who are entitled to them under the laws of Islam.

The Majlis can play its role not only by way of enforcing the laws of Islam but also by helping those Muslims who are in need of assistance. For example, it can increase the number of scholarships now being given to Muslim students whose parents are poor and are not able to support their children's education. If we study their cases, we will find that many Muslim students are not able to carry on with their education because their parents are not able to support them even though they can study. This is where the Majlis can help.

I also understand that the Majlis is not yet in a position to take on the responsibility of looking after pilgrimages. As a pilgrimage to Mecca is one of the five tenets of Islam, it is hoped that the Majlis will consider this matter. A pilgrimage to Mecca requires a lot of money by way of fares to and fro, and I, therefore, suggest that the Majlis establish a Pilgrimage Fund to assist Muslims in the lower income group. They can deposit their money in this fund, and in this way many more Muslims will be able to go on a pilgrimage from time to time.

I suggest that the Minister for Social Affairs give guidance and assistance to the Majlis so that it can discharge its duties and responsibilities for the well-being of the Muslims in Singapore and also the Muslim religion.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Mr Speaker, Sir, a total of 41 scholarships were offered by the Majlis Ugama Islam last year - 21 of them at university level and 20 at Higher School Certificate level. A sum of $3l,000 was spent out of the $49,000 set aside for education by the Majlis. This year the Majlis has approved an expenditure of $58,000 from the 1969 Fitrah collections for scholarships and other purposes related to education. There is, therefore, an increase in the amount, and as such there will be an increase in the number of scholarships offered to Muslim students.

The Majlis will, I am sure, welcome the Member's suggestion to increase the number of awards. It is very keen to help children of poor parents, but poverty alone is not a sufficient qualification for a scholarship. Applicants must convince the Majlis of their diligence and intelligence so that the award may not go to waste.

6.00 p.m.

Usually there are more applicants for scholarships than the number of scholarships available, and some applicants are bound to be disappointed. The Member for Geylang Serai can rest assured that, other things being equal, preference will be given to the poor students.

On the Pilgrimage Fund, Sir, the Majlis Ugama Islam is now considering introducing what is called the Tabong Haji Scheme, or Pilgrimage Fund Scheme. This scheme will enable Muslims who wish to make a pilgrimage to Mecca to make regular contributions of whatever sums they can afford to a fund set up by the Majlis. Once the accumulated savings are considered sufficient to enable a contributor to proceed on his pilgrimage, he will be allowed to do so, and all necessary arrangements for his departure and return will be taken care of by the Majlis.

Lastly, Sir, I would like to thank the Member for Geylang Serai for his confidence in the Minister in asking him to take over the responsibility of looking after the Majlis Ugama Islam. As the House knows, Sir, the Majlis is a responsible statutory body with a President appointed by the President of Singapore. It has at the moment 18 members, including the President of the Majlis. Since its inception on 1st July 1968, it has done very good work, and I do not think there is any reason at all for the Minister to take over the responsibility of looking after the Majlis.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Sir, I am satisfied with the Minister's explanation, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1261.

Sir, I would like to raise a question on fishing and farming co-operatives. According to statistics produced by the Primary Production Department, the number of farmers and their families now in Singapore is 170,000. Their annual produce is worth $250 million. This shows that they play a very important part in the economy of our country. Therefore, they should receive proper treatment and protection from the Government. But if we take a close look at their life, we will find that it is, unfortunately, a hard one. They get up very early in the morning to work in the fields and return very late at sunset. Their income is just sufficient to cover their basic necessities.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the main reason for their hard life is that they are exploited by the middlemen. They put in a lot of effort to produce a crop, but the profits are taken by the middlemen. The prices we pay in the market for their produce are two or three times higher than the prices paid by the middlemen. We should pay attention to this fact.

The characteristic of our farming industry is the smallness of the farm. If a farmer transports his produce to a market which is a great distance away, it will not be worth his while as there are other factors involved. The best solution, I think, is for the Government to help the farmers set up farming co-operatives. I do not know what the Government has done for them in the past, but if I understand it correctly, the Registrar of Co-operatives is adopting a passive attitude towards the farmers in regard to the setting up of co-operatives for them.

I think Members will agree with me that our farmers generally have a low education. They would like to set up co-operatives, but they lack the experience. Therefore, Government should help them by organising and administering these co-operatives. Perhaps the Registrar of Co-operatives could take the initiative to set up these farming co-operatives, and in the initial stages have complete charge of their administration. Then the farmers could gradually take over these co-operatives in stages. This arrangement will, of course, impose an additional burden on the Registrar of Co-operatives, but as it will directly benefit the farming community, I am sure this socialist Government will not neglect its responsibility in this field.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Mr Speaker, Sir, it has been found that co-operatives formed by fishermen and farmers have not been functioning as successfully as other co-operatives. Many of these co-operatives have been dormant for a number of years. Perhaps this may be due to the fact that generally the small fishermen or farmers lack capital, and this makes it difficult for them to compete with other business enterprises which have strong financial resources.

Moreover, it is difficult to find suitable, capable and efficient personnel from amongst the fishermen and farmers with the necessary minimum standard of education to run co-operatives. As a result, Sir, these co-operatives experience difficulty in keeping proper records of minutes of meetings and maintenance of accounts. The individualistic attitude amongst some fishermen and farmers is also another reason for the failure of fishing and farming co-operatives.

I have to mention these to the Member because it is very difficult for the Registrar to make the first move if there is no reciprocal move from the other side. However, in spite of his small staff, the Registrar will try his best to help the fishermen and farmers form new co-operatives if they wish. I can assure the Member of that.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not quite satisfied with the Minister's reply. He has admitted that the farmers and fishermen are rather poor in organisational and administrative ability. That is exactly why I have suggested that the initial stages of operating these co-operatives should be looked after by the Registrar of Co-operatives. He can gradually train the farmers and fishermen so that later on they themselves can take over the functions. We should not take the attitude of just sitting down here and waiting for the farmers to come forward before extending our help.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I have already said that we will do our best. We are not sitting down!

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am not quite satisfied with the Minister's reply. He says that he will do his best. Can he tell the House what efforts have been made by the Registrar of Co-operatives in this direction?

Inche Othman Bin Wok: There are co-operatives now in existence for farmers and fishermen. I have said that they are dormant because they do not have the personnel to run them. We are looking into this, which means that we are helping them. Anyway, we will still help them if they want to form new co-operatives.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am still not quite satisfied with the Minister's reply, and I am not prepared to withdraw.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(7) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Madam Chan is not here.

The sum of $2,147,280 for Head 1101 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1102 -

Mr J. F. Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Selvadurai.)

Sir, the Department of Social Welfare administers a number of institutions whose residents produce goods of a quality that compare, in my opinion. favourably with similar goods produced by commercial concerns. For example, the various social welfare institutions produce furniture, home ornaments, toys, haberdashery, cakes, garden items, and so on. I believe that if there could be co-ordination in the sale of these goods produced by social welfare institutions through some sort of a central agency, it might contribute to greater success in the sale of these goods.

My experience is that these goods are put on sale perhaps once a year in some sale of work. It was through this sale of work that I came to know that these goods are available and of quite good quality. So if there is a central marketing agency, so to speak, the lesson could be driven home clearly to the residents of these social welfare homes that their work has indeed some useful end. In other words, they have contributed towards their own support in the institutions in which they reside.

Mr P. Selvadurai: Mr Speaker, Sir, there is a particularly acute problem that keeps cropping up over and over again to which we do not seem to have found an answer. This, Sir, is the problem of the deserted wife who also holds a blue identity card.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Singapore? Mr Selvadurai: A Singapore blue identity card, yes. This means that she is a permanent resident in Singapore, and married to a Singapore citizen who holds a red Singapore identity card. Quite often, the husband belongs to the low income bracket. He deserts her, runs away with somebody else, does not maintain her, and saddles her invariably with three or four children.

6.15 p.m.

She presents herself at the Social Welfare Department in the Ministry of Social Affairs and is told that as she is not a Singapore citizen, she is not entitled to public assistance. I have had occasion to refer cases like this to the officials of the Ministry of Social Affairs, but they do not seem to be able to get over the difficulties of her not being a Singapore citizen. I wonder if we could do something about this because this woman has children who are Singapore citizens. She herself is a resident of Singapore and there is no way whereby she is able to find a living.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, I will answer the Member for Bukit Panjang's question first. Holders of blue identity cards are foreign citizens, although they are permanent residents in Singapore.

Mr Selvadurai: They are permanent residents but cannot prove that they are born in Singapore.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Yes, they are permanent residents but not born in Singapore. There is a case of a deserted wife who is the holder of a blue identity card. The Ministry is considering cases of this nature. In fact, some of the cases are being processed and are being given favourable consideration.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Are you sure?

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Yes.

Mr Selvadurai: Mr Speaker, Sir, that is heartening news!

Mr Chan Chee Seng: As to the first question asked by the Member for Katong, I would like to give him the figures of the profits made by the Social Welfare Department.

In 1969, we made a profit of $18,800. Of this sum, $5,000 was derived from the sale of noodles produced by the Gimson School for Boys to the other Social Welfare Department homes, and $5,000 from the laundry services undertaken by the Mount Emily Girls' Home. The balance of approximately $8,800 profit was earned from the sale of handicraft articles, carpentry products, embroidery and sewing work by the girls and the food catering service. From the above, it will be noted that the two main profit-making activities are noodle-making and laundry services. Both of these do not require the formation of a private company, or what the Member for Katong has suggested, a central marketing agency, to boost sales, as the production capacity is quite limited. As for the other products sold, it is unlikely that the Social Welfare Department homes will be in a position to mass produce such articles. This is partly because of the lack of machinery equipment and partly because a large percentage of the residents are delinquents and wayward children. Some of the residents in the girls' homes will help produce children's wear and woollen knit-wear on a piece rate basis for a commercial firm. The giris will not have much time left to engage in other activities.

For the information of Members, I would like to say that the residents are paid for the work they do, and the profits are credited to the Social Welfare (Homes) Fund which is used for the benefit of the residents.

The proposal of the Singapore Council of Social Service to set aside one whole floor of the new building for the display and sale of Social Welfare products, both from the Social Welfare Department homes and voluntary organisations, will provide an additional sales outlet for Social Welfare Department products. Therefore, there is no necessity at this stage to form a cooperative or private company to push the sales of Social Welfare Department products and services.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with the answer and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1007.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I am not moving.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong).

Mr Speaker, Sir, Toa Payoh is a fast expanding satellite town and more and more people are moving in to stay in the estate. The bulk of the population in this estate are workers. Most of them cannot afford to employ servants or baby-sitters to look after their own children while they are at work. Many of these young children are left alone to look after themselves. In some cases, these young children are locked inside their homes without any adult to look after them. There is therefore a need to provide amenities such as a children's centre or a creche for the residents in Toa Payoh. May I know from the Minister whether any provision has been made to provide the residents of Toa Payoh with these amenities?

Mr Chan Chee Seng: The Ramah Street Creche will be affected by urban renewal and an approach has been made to the Housing and Development Board to build a creche similar to the Park Road Creche as a replacement for the Ramah Street Creche when it is demolished. Subject to the terms of agreement with the Housing and Development Board, this new creche will be located on the roof deck of the proposed new emporium building in the shopping centre of Toa Payoh New Town.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: I understand the emporium that is going to be built in Toa Payoh will not not be up for the next one or two years.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, in case we cannot have the creche located on the roof deck of the emporium building, the Ministry will look for another site.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the Parliamentary Secretary's reply, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1151.

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1181.

The Chairman: Madam Chan is not here. Mr Ng Kah Ting, amendment (6).

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1102 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2081.

Sir, this subhead 2081 concerns two topics under the heading "Fostering-Out Allowances". I seek the Minister for Social Affairs elucidation on these two topics separately.

With regard to the Boarding Out Scheme for Infants and Children, I would be glad if the Minister concerned could enlighten this House on whose infants and children they are and whether they are from the homes maintained by the Social Welfare Department. What is this Boarding Out Scheme for Infants and Children like, and how many cases of such boarding out have we got to the latest convenient date?

Sir, the second item concems Fostering and Maintenance of Mentally Deficient Children. Similar to the questions I have posed just now. I hope the Minister will enlighten this House on the type of fostering and maintenance scheme we have for mentally deficient children and who these mentally deficient children are. Are they from homes organised or run by the Social Welfare Department?

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, first, may I inform the House that the Fostering-Out Allowances are to be used as follows:

(a) $65,000 for the Boarding Out Scheme for normal children administered by the Children and Young Persons Section of the Social Welfare Department;

(b) $42,000 for the fostering and maintenance of mentally defective children administered by the Senior Almoner's Department.

The Boarding Out Scheme was introduced in 1956 to provide for the fostering of infants under the age of two years. In 1962, the scheme was extended to include the fostering of children up to ten years old. In 1963, the scheme was further extended to cater for the fostering of mentally defective children.

The aim of fostering is to provide an alternative to institutional care for orphans and children whose mothers or guardians are temporarily unable to care for them. Foster care can give such children a substitute home approximating closely to their own homes. An institution is not the best substitute for a home as it cannot give the child individual care and affection. Nor can it provide the security and warmth of a normal home life, which are important influencing factors in the proper development of a child's personality.

The need to place a child in foster care may arise from circumstances such as illness of the mother, overcrowded conditions, breakdown of family life through death, desertion, neglect, destitution and so on.

In 1969, a total of 218 children (160 infants under the age of two years and 58 children) were fostered out under the scheme. The number of cases fostered out during the first quarter of 1970 is 133. The total expenditure for fostering of normal children in 1969 was $64,242.05 and the expenditure from January 1970 to 17th March, 1970 is $16,908.45.

A total of 27 children were fostered out under the Mentally Defective Children Scheme in 1969. Each foster mother is paid $60 per month for the care of one mentally defective child, plus $10 per year for clothing allowance for the child.

6.30 p.m.

The expenditure on the Fostering Out Scheme remained approximately the same over the period 1965 to 1969. On the Fostering Out Scheme for Infants and Children, the expenditure remained approximately the same over the period 1965 to 1969, i.e., $61,000 to $66,000, while the expenditure for Fostering and Maintenance of Mentally Deficient Children has remained at about $33,000 to the $41,000 level over the same period.

Concerning the categories of children who may be fostered out, the main categories of children who qualify for fostering care are:

Category I - Unwanted or illegitimate babies whose custody has been vested in the Protector of Children.

Category II - Babies who are abandoned, destitute, and deserted orphans without legal guardians.

Category III - Babies who need care and protection because of neglect, ill treatment or rejection by parents or guardians.

Category IV - Babies who have to be fostered out on medical grounds and because their parents are incapable of giving them the special care they need, being either on public assistance or unemployed.

Category V - Babies of parents who have to be hospitalised or who are medically unfit to care for the children.

Any child below the age of ten who comes within one of the above-mentioned categories and either of whose parents is a Singapore citizen may be fostered out under the Boarding Out Scheme. The approval of the Director of Social Welfare will have to be obtained for the fostering of any children who do not come within the categories listed above.

As for mentally defective children, the scheme for the fostering of mentally defective children aims at solving the problems of the following categories of mentally defective children:

(i) Children who have been abandoned by parents and, because of their condition, cannot be admitted to ordinary Social Welfare homes;

(ii) Children who require a great deal of care. e.g., they are either completely helpless or destructive;

(iii) Children who require more care than their families can provide because of their social circumstances, e.g, mother has died and father has to work; mother is sickly in hospital; mother has deserted family, or is a widow and has to work to support her children;

(iv) Children who seem to be a constant source of great emotional and physical strain on the parents causing attempts at suicide or causing a disharmonious relationship between them.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I wish to thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs for painting such a vivid picture of what the Fostering Out Scheme is like. But may I ask one last question in connection with payment? Just now the Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned that a person who takes care of such a child is paid $60 per month, plus $10 per year for clothing allowance for the child. I want to know whether the sum of $730 per year includes expenses for food and drinks for the child, or whether it is an allowance for the foster mother? What about the child's needs?