ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1970, TO 31ST MARCH, 1971

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day].

Resumption of debate on Question (24th March, 1970),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 100l."-[Mr Ho Kah Leong].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.33 p.m.

Head 1201 (contd.)-

The Chairman: The Question is,

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001."

Madam Chan Choy Siong had the Floor when the House rose yesterday. She is not present. Mr Ng Yeow Chong.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to touch on the subject of rehousing of dispossessed families from land cleared for redevelopment purposes. Normally, all dispossessed families from clearance sites are rehoused in Housing and Development Board flats where they will settle down permanently. But there are instances where, after having stayed in these flats for some time, these people have to face clearance action for a second time because their flats are to be demolished for redevelopment as high-rise flats I will quote a few cases which have come to my knowledge. This is what I have experienced in recent months.

Four blocks of the former three-storey S.I.T. flats along Old Airport Road in my constituency were affected by the redevelopment scheme. In the course of giving assistance to their rehousing problems, I discovered that a few families who had been displaced once before had to face another clearance action for a second time. In one instance, the displaced family had hardly resettled for a month at their present flat when they had to move. Another resettler was very bitter about having to be evicted again within a short space of four months. This particular resettler told me that he was rehoused from Beach Road where his property was acquired by the Government at a price far below the market value. In another case, a tenant of the Housing Board was transferred only eight months ago from his former flat which he had declined to buy over. There were also two rehousing cases which took place about a year ago.

Sir, from the above cases you will be convinced that the Housing and Development Board have been very careless and irresponsible in rehousing displaced families. It seems to me that they have totally no regard or consideration for people who have to suffer all the inconveniences, the most serious of which is the problem of school transfers for their children. Is there no proper coordination among the various departments of the Housing Board over the matters of rehousing and redevelopment? Sir, you will agree with me that planning for redevelopment takes some considerable time before it can be implemented. Of course, there is sufficient time for the architects in the Building Department of the Board to keep the Lettings and Resettlement Departments informed of the areas that will be affected by redevelopment schemes. The Lettings Department will not then release vacant flats in the area to the Resettlement Department for rehousing purposes. If this had been done, there would not have been the cases which I have mentioned just now. In this respect, will the Minister kindly seek an assurance from the Housing and Development Board that care will be taken not to rehouse dispossessed families in any area that is likely to be affected by redevelopment schemes? Also, can he ascertain from the Housing Board if there is any co-ordination among the various departments over the matters of rehousing and redevelopment?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Law and National Development (National Development Division) (Mr Ho Cheng Choon): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I be given permission to deal with the National Development Division first and later on my Minister will deal with the Law Division?

Mr Speaker, Sir, in reply to the point raised by the Member for Kampong Kapor, in which he suggested a further increase in the income qualification for people to apply for or purchase Housing Board fiats, the present income ceiling is fixed at $500 per month for the individual or $800 for the combined family income. There is already a long list of applicants waiting to rent Housing Board flats, and any further increase in this income ceiling will only further aggravate the present situation. The income ceiling of a family for the purchase of Housing and Development Board flat has recently been raised from $1,000 to $1,200 per month. It is considered that this income ceiling is adequate at present and any further raising of the income ceiling cannot yet be justified.

In answer to the Member for Delta who has made the suggestion to pay a lump sum compensation to shopkeepers affected by the clearance scheme, I wish to inform the House that the present policy relating to the clearance of shops is being reviewed and the suggestion that shopkeepers should be given a lump sum compensation in place of alternate shop premises will be taken into consideration.

The Member for Jurong has complained that full consideration was not given to the removal of stand-pipes. There are certain procedures governing the removal of stand-pipes. The present procedure for the removal of stand-pipes is as follows. Before action is taken for the removal of a stand-pipe -

(a) An ad hoc committee has to consider the following points: the unnumbered houses in the vicinity are given house numbers to enable the house owners to make applications for individual connections,

(b) Water mains are laid, if none is available in the vicinity of the houses, for the house owners to make the connections.

(c) A reasonable period of time is given to the house owners to make the connections.

The Member for Jurong has also complained that the stand-pipe at Gek Poh Road near Lorong Kabong was removed without reason. Sir, that stand-pipe was removed on 28th February, 1969, after notices had been given to the Member of Parliament concerned, the Citizens' Consultative Committee, and the District Secretary on 25th March, 1968, and 10th February, 1969, respectively. However, a request for its retention was made by the Citizens' Consultative Committee on 20th March, 1969 but by then this stand-pipe had already been removed.

As to the question of a second stand-pipe, the Stand-pipe Removal Committee did not agree to reinstall it but agreed that a water wagon would be sent during the drought period should the need arise.

The water mains that have been laid at Lorong Kabong cost $39,450, and an additional main will be laid soon, costing $31,500.

Sir, there is a proposal to lay mains in the interior part of Joo Koon Road. This proposal will be submitted to the Urban and Rural Services Committee for consideration at the next meeting.

Regarding the stand-pipe at the l3½ m.s. Jurong Road, due notice to remove it was given to the Member of Parliament concerned, the Secretary of the Citizens' Consultative Committee of that Constituency, and the District Secretary, Jurong West. Although a petition was received for unsealing the stand-pipe as it was serving hawkers at the 13½ m.s., the petitioners had been informed on the very day, through the District Secretary that the stand-pipe was not meant for washing market and hawker stalls, for which purpose the market owner had to provide taps and pay for the water consumed.

2.45 p.m

The Member for Jurong has also complained that farmers encountered difficulty in applying for a permit to construct chicken sheds or pigsties. I do not know the true nature of his complaint, but what I know is that the Primary Production Department has since 1964 assisted the farming community free of charge, and has also supplied on request standard plans for the construction of chicken sheds or laying cages. The measurements for a chicken shed are 8 feet high by 24 feet wide, and for a pigsty 8 feet high with a floor area of 100 square feet per unit. However, the farmer will have to obtain the landowner's permission to build, and also he has to indicate on the site plan the specific spot he intends to construct. These site plans can be purchased from the Land Office at $2 each. If the farmer follows the procedure of applying for a permit - and this is quite simple - I do not think he will encounter any difficulty at all.

The Member for Jurong has also pointed out that although he is no longer a member of the Urban and Rural Services Committee, certain officers in charge of projects continue to send him letters for recommendation of certain projects. In this respect, if he can give me the names of these officers, I will wake them up.

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I first deal with the queries from the Member for Mountbatten? He cited a few cases of resettled persons having to be resettled again. It is true that a few dispossessed families have been subjected to clearance action for a second time. This is indeed regrettable, but, unfortunately, not always avoidable. The Housing and Development Board does take care not to rehouse dispossessed families in an area likely to be affected by development. To do otherwise would be foolish and only add to the already considerable resettlement problems of the Board. The Member can rest assured that there is co ordination between the various departments of the Board over matters pertaining to rehousing and redevelopment. But as I said just now, sometimes a second resettlement is unavoidable.

To give an example. Before we separated from Malaysia, we rehoused certain farmers in Choa Chu Kang and Jurong. As a result of our separation and the build-up of our armed forces, more land has had to be acquired for purposes of the Ministry of Defence, e.g., S.A.F.T.I. As a net result, farmers whom we had settled years ago have had to shift and be resettled, much to their annoyance, of course, as it causes a lot of inconvenience. This is one example where such resettlement for a second time was unavoidable.

Sir, if I may now go on to certain queries from the Member for Delta regarding the Ministry of Law. I understood her to say that the Chinese translation Kuan - I hope I have pronounced it correctly - of the English word "Judge" or "Magistrate" has a colonial flavour. Not being a Chinese scholar, I cannot agree or disagree with her. But I would like to point out to Members of this House that Judges and Magistrates do not come under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Law. Under our system of government, they are completely independent of the Executive. Our laws are printed in English, and the English word "Judge" or "Magistrate" is still being used in many other countries - Malaysia, India, Ceylon. So I do not think it has a colonial flavour; at least not the English word.

The Member has also suggested that more publicity should be given on T.V. and over the radio to certain Bills passed in this House, e.g., the Abortion Bill. Somehow I feel this query should have been directed to the Minister for Culture. But, I, for one, feel that sufficient publicity is already being given in four languages on Television Singapore and over Radio Singapore. You get it in the news bulletins, and there is a special half-hour where all the proceedings in Parliament are reported. What I fear is that if we have much more publicity on T.V. and over the radio, resulting in a cutting down of entertainment time, then people will get fed up and turn to some other channel or station.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with some but not all of the replies of the Parliamentary Secretary. As regards the farmers' applications for permission to build chicken pens or pigsties, I did not say that the Primary Production Department did not assist the farmers. I said that the Department has since given them a great deal of assistance. What I complained about was that the various departments did not seem to co-ordinate well. For example, when an application to build a chicken pen with a maximum height of 8 feet went to the Building Surveyor's Department for approval, it was rejected because the height was more than the allowed maximum of 6 feet. So there is a lack of co-ordination among the various departments.

The Parliamentary Secretary has also asked me to name the officers who did not know that I am no longer a member of the Urban and Rural Services Committee. I can tell him that these officers are in the Electricity Department of the Public Utilities Board.

In regard to the procedures in connection with the removal of stand-pipes, as far as I know, the Members of Parliament concerned were not informed. It is only just now that I have heard the Parliamentary Secretary inform the House of these procedures. The Parliamentary Secretary dare not admit that the Ad Hoc Committee was in the wrong to disconnect those stand-pipes which should not have been removed, but since he has promised to lay water mains in the areas concerned, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

Sir, on the matter of widening Paya Lebar Road, I defined my attitude to it at the last Budget sitting. It seems that this road-widening project is now nearing completion. I am not a garrulous woman trying to harp on the subject again and again, but as the representative of Paya Lebar Constituency, I am duty bound to look after the interests of my constituents. I cannot be indifferent to their hardship, particularly the shophouses and premises affected by this project. Many of them have been asked to move to some other place. The most hard hit are the shophouses. As a result of this road widening, these people incurred losses in business, and some of them even had to wind up their businesses. The loss was very substantial, whether in terms of human resources or material resources. It is true that in order to widen this road, the land abutting this road has to be utilised, and the premises on both sides of the road have to give way. I have received complaints in my capacity as Member of Parliament from those of my constituents affected, and have tried my best to explain to them why it is necessary to widen this road. Generally, they are not totally against the scheme to widen this road. At the same time, most of the premises have already been shifted a few yards back from the main road. If there is no empty space at the back of their original premises they have to make do with smaller and cramped premises and the shophouses have to be reduced in size.

3.00 p.m.

I hope the enlightened and understanding Minister will give them all the necessary assistance and sympathy, and allow them to live and carry on with their business in the area.

The second point I would like to draw the Minister's attention to is this. In my discussion with those residents who have been affected by the road-widening scheme, I have discovered that there is no proper liaison among the various departments concerned. For example, the road was widened up to the shop premises, but the owners of these shops were not given alternative accommodation. They came to see me. As a result, I wrote to the department concerned on the question of alternative accommodation. While the matter was under discussion, another department issued a demolition notice to the people there. Sometimes it is the P.W.D. which issues such demolition notices. These people do not understand why another department should send them a further notice of demolition when the matter is still under discussion. They do not understand why the officials in the various departments do not have proper liaison with one another. No one knows what the other is doing especially in regard to such a serious matter as the demolition of shophouses. The shopowners are bewildered and at a loss to understand what is going on. I hope the Minister concerned will take measures to prevent the recurrence of such incidents.

The third point I would like to bring up is that of the officials of the departments under the Ministry of Law and National Development, particularly the Land Office inspectors who are called Ti Niu, the Chinese meaning of which is "bulls". Being "bulls", they are very hot tempered. I do not want to deny that the people in the rural area are not as well educated as those in the urban area. Nevertheless, they understand what is going on in this world. They can sense that these Land Office inspectors are trying to boss over them. At times, the Land Office inspectors are bureaucratic and insolent in their dealings with the people in the rural areas. I hope the Minister will take note of this. I have received many complaints to the effect that when members of the public go to a department to apply for something, the officials in the office just gesture with their hands to communicate with them. They do not talk with them. They even glare at them. Such an attitude is very bad. Many country folks came and asked me whether it was because they dressed shabbily that they were looked down upon by the staff in the department. If this is the case, will the Minister take the necessary drastic measures against these officials who judge persons by their appearance and attire? Certain members of the public do not know which department to go to on business, and when they want to approach a certain department -

The Chairman: Mr Tay, you have filed an amendment on subhead 1004, but so far you have been dwelling on all sorts of subjects except "Permanent Secretaries".

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I feel that the Permanent Secretary of a Ministry should be responsible for his subordinates. He should see to it that they behave properly, otherwise it will be a waste of money to pay a huge salary to our Permanent Secretaries for doing nothing.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I have mentioned just now that sometimes when the country folk go to see Government officials, they are scared, overawed, and break out in a sweat. Invariably the officials will give them wrong directions and guidance and they have to go from one office to another without getting any result. Therefore, I feel that such discourtesy and bureaucratic attitude on the part of these officials should be taken note of and proper measures taken to deal with them.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Paya Lebar has for some time now been very concerned about the widening of Paya Lebar Road from its junction with Bartley Road to its junction with Airport Road. I think he admits that there is a need to widen the road and, as a result, people must shift, but we have not evicted any of the persons occupying houses along the road without any notice. We have given them ample time but some squatters are still there. As a result, the road has been widened in parts but the widening has not been completed yet. If I may cite the figures, 298 squatters or occupiers were served with notices of eviction, of whom only 144 have been cleared. Another 154 units of houses still remain to be cleared. No one likes to shift, so they approached their Member of Parliament. He has written me several letters and these have been given careful consideration by the Ministry, otherwise those 154 squatters would not be there today. I appeal to the M.P. to use his good influence and see what he can do to help evict the 154 squatters.

The Member for Paya Lebar also complains about rudeness in the Land Office. I have said time and again in Parliament that for Back-benchers to come here and make general allegations of rudeness does not get us anywhere. If the Member knows the facts of a certain case where a civil servant has been rude to a member of the public, let us have the full particulars and the matter will be inquired into, and that civil servant will be dealt with if he is wrong. But to make general allegations of rudeness here takes it no further. We do issue departmental circulars insisting that civil servants treat members of the public fairly and urgently, certainly without rudeness, but I cannot do anything, neither can the Permanent Secretary do anything, unless specific allegations with full particulars like date, place, names of persons involved are brought to our attention.

In this connection, may I refer to the statement made by the Member for Punggol, who is not here now, when during the debate on the Estimates of the Ministry of Finance, he referred to a case of rudeness in the Public Utilities Board. I have looked into it. Apparently this happened more than two years ago. There was a small incident which was due to some misunderstanding. The Member for Punggol turned up at the Public Utilities Board the next day. The matter was settled to the satisfaction of all parties, including the Member for Punggol. I am surprised that the Member should have come here two years later to complain of a little incident that had happened in the Public Utilities Board such a long time ago.

3.15 p.m.

I think Members will remember that when the People's Action Party first came to power, civil servants were so afraid to move because of pressure put on them by politicians. But I put it to you that if the Director of Public Works and the General Manager of the Public Utilities Board have to deal daily with complaints from 58 Members of Parliament, they will not be able to do any other work. So I would suggest that if you gentlemen have any complaints, you address them either to me or to my Parliamentary Secretary (National Deveopment Division) or my Parliamentary Secretary (Law Division).

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to raise another point. The Minister says that, as the Member of Parliament for Paya Lebar, it is my duty to persuade my constituents. I have done a lot of persuasion. The reason why some of them have not moved out is that they have not been given alternative accommodation. Some of them have their backyard enclosed, and we would like the authorities to be more lenient with them and allow them time to find alternative accommodation.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I did not say that it is the duty of the Member for Paya Lebar to evict these people. I asked for his assistance. The trouble with Paya Lebar Road is that most of the squatters there do not want to move. All they want to do is to move backwards from the road. They still want to be on the road front. In many cases, we have allowed them to demolish part of the premises and reset their houses backwards. But, in some cases, there are already houses behind them whose owners will not move. So we reach a position where the squatters will not move. But wherever possible, we allow these people to reset their houses backwards so that they are still on Paya Lebar Road. This also happened in respect of the widening of Upper Serangoon Road.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I thank the Minister for his reply and the decision to allow the residents at Paya Lebar Road to reset their houses backwards. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $100*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Low Yong Nguan).

Sir, under this amendment, I wish to raise two points. Firstly, a few unpleasant developments have taken place in the implementation of our urban renewal schemes. When the Resettlement Department takes action to resettle people, there are some residents who are not resettled. According to the usual practice, sub-contractors are asked to tender for the demolition of shacks, and the clearance of the area. This has given rise to some unpleasantness. Let me quote an example which took place not very long ago. The place at which this took place is a historical spot in Singapore called Covent Gardens, and it has a history going back more than 100 years. The Housing and Development Board has plans to develop this area. Many attap houses in this area were demolished and the people had to move out. But there are still a small number of people who for various reasons have not moved out as yet. The Housing Board has already awarded the tender to sub-contractors to clear this area. The sub-contractors have taken the good and usable articles from the area and have burnt the unwanted household furniture and articles. These sub-contractors are only concerned with making money and are not bothered with the lives and property of the people. When these unwanted articles are burnt, the people who are still staying in this area are in danger of losing their lives and property if there is a fire. Sir, this is only one example from my constituency. I understand there were two or three such incidents caused by the burning of unwanted articles on the site. These fires endangered the lives of the people living in the area. Although we may regard this as a small matter, our citizens may consider it as a matter of great importance. They are not so much concerned with the sub-contractors as with the Government. They think that this is a deliberate attempt by the Government to set fire to the houses on the site which is required for urban renewal so that the Government can proceed with urban development. So many fires of this nature have taken place and I have not seen the Minister taking action against the sub-contractors whose actions have endangered the lives and property of the people. This is not a small matter. It is a matter of great importance.

After the fire in my constituency, I saw certain officials in the Resettlement Department and they promised to look into this matter. They have spoken to the sub-contractors and have warned them that if they persist in starting fires, they will be punished and fined. I would like to know whether the Ministry has made investigations, because there is evidence that the fires were started by these sub-contractors. I hope the Minister will give a detailed explanation so that I can report to my constituents.

Sir, another point I want to raise concerns recreational grounds for people staying in housing estates. When the People's Action Party came to power, it was one of the Party's aims to provide these facilities for the people in housing estates, because they were then staying in "pigeon-holes" and were restricted in their movements. This is not the best environment to build socialism and cannot be permitted by our Party which professes to be a socialist Party. Therefore, we resolved to do away with the then Singapore Improvement Trust and set up what is now known as the Housing and Development Board. The main function of the Board is to provide houses for our people, and its housing achievements have brought honour and won praise for our country from most of the countries in South-east Asia. Many of our people are now living in flats built by the Housing and Development Board.

Formerly, we had many empty spaces or grounds near housing estates which could be utilised for recreational purposes. But in the last year or two, these grounds have been sold to oil companies for the construction of petrol stations. The promises that our Party and our Government made to the people during the elections have been forgotten or changed. A number of my constituents came to see me last week, saying that the only open space which can be utilised as a recreational ground had been sold by the Housing Board to an oil company for the construction of a petrol kiosk. After listening to this complaint, I made investigations, and I feel that such a small space should have been reserved for the people in the area for the purpose of recreation.

3.30 p.m.

Children can walk and play around there because there is no other better open ground in that particular area for recreation. Since the density of the population there is high and there is a lot of traffic, that place is not suitable for a petrol kiosk. The Ministry of Law and National Development has sold the space to a petrol kiosk and, in doing so, it has taken away a small piece of ground which the people could have used for recreation.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this is the people's fundamental right and the land should not have been sold to the petrol kiosk. It should have been reserved for the use of our people. The Government did not seek their views when it sold the piece of land. The building of a petrol kiosk there constitutes a danger to the lives of the people. They would like to have that piece of land for their use. They have appealed to the Citizens' Consultative Committee to help them in this matter and they have asked me to convey their views to the Minister. But until today they have not received any reply. They do not know what the Ministry of Law and National Development is going to do. I hope the Minister will answer in great detail the two points which I have raised just now.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I first deal with the last point raised by the Member for Delta. I have not been able to follow her line of argument. She referred to one petrol station. She said that it was built on land used by children to play on and, in the same breath, she said that the P.A.P. was breaking its promises to the people. One piece of land and Government is breaking its promises! I do not see the logic of the argument. These are the facts. The Member for Delta and certain of her constituents did appeal to the Ministry of National Development not to allow a petrol station to be built on a small site of land. They raised two objections. First, on traffic grounds. Secondly, they alleged that when they purchased the houses, it was on condition that that land would be reserved as a children's playground. Investigation has shown that there were no traffic problems and, second, there was ample other space for the children to play on, and that there was no promise or undertaking that that piece of land was to be reserved for recreation. The appeal was rejected and I have already written to the Member for Delta. I am surprised she has not received the letter. Probably it is on the way to her.

She asked why the Government did not consult the people when it wanted to sell its own land. Why should the Government consult the people when it is the owner? May I point out to the Member for Delta that the money from the petrol station goes towards the subsidy of Housing Board flats. It does not go into the pockets of members of the Housing and Development Board. It is used to subsidise rents.

The Member also referred to Covent Gardens. I remember answering her question in Parliament as to when the Government was going to develop Covent Gardens. We are now in the process of developing Covent Gardens. Most of the people have shifted. There was an unfortunate case of a fire there which took place during the rather dry spell Singapore had to undergo in February when we hardly had any rain for 32 days. It was a fire from a rubbish pile. The evidence does not show who started this fire, whether it was the squatters remaining there, or the contractor as alleged by the Member for Delta. But she feared that the people might think that it was the Government that was aiding and abetting the contractor to start the fire. Surely the Member should know better. These are rumours circulated by our enemies. During Chap Goh Meh there were dozens of fires in Singapore. Surely the Government did not start every one of them! But I will look into the complaint by the Member for Delta and try to ensure that no other fire takes place in Covent Gardens.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to clarify one point. This is about the plot of land which has been used for a petrol kiosk. The Minister has said that the Government can make use of any piece of land whenever it wants to. Naturally it can. When it wants to make use of a piece of land, it can take it at any time. But then it should not forget that when it came to power, one of its fundamental policies was to provide more recreational grounds for our children. I would like to ask the Minister whether, if a petrol kiosk is built there, there will be a recreational ground for the many people who are now living there in high-rise flats. Of course, no one will oppose the Government's action to make use of the land there. But what I want to say is that land in that area is limited. Has the Minister seen that piece of land? Our Party Branch is just across it and I am quite familiar with the locality. There are already four petrol kiosks in that area, all near together within a short stretch of Havelock Road. The traffic along Havelock Road is congested. Who can say that it is not? There have already been four cases of children who were run over by cars. Is this not a traffic problem?

The Chairman: Does the Minister wish to reply?

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, all I can say is that before a petrol station is sited anywhere, the Traffic Department of the Police is consulted. The Member for Delta seems to be getting heated over her constituency. May I point out that most of the Housing Board flats in Singapore have been built in Delta Constituency. If she is looking for more playground for the children, then she should apply to the Chairman of the Housing and Development Board. This is being done in Queenstown where the Board is providing a park and five swimming pools, and also in Toa Payoh

3.40 p.m.

The Chairman: The time is up, Mr Minister.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not intend to withdraw my amendment.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The sum of $453,670 for Head 1201 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1204 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1204 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving, Sir.

The sum of $1,007,220 for Head 1204 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1206 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Sim Boon Woo -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1206 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Chairman: Mr Sim Boon Woo is not here.

The sum of $1,050,010 for Head 1206 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1207 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Teong Eng Siong -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1005.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Thank you. Mr P. Govindaswamy, amendment No. (2)*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong)

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Lim Soo Peng (Havelock): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong)

Sir, this is to seek information only. Will the Minister enlighten this House on the performance of the Jurong Fish Market and the Jurong Abattoir? What was the cause of the boycott by the pork dealers last year and how was it solved?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, on the 9th of this month the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Law and National Development (National Development Division), in answer to a question raised by me, said that by the end of last year there were 20,357 registered farms and the registered farmers numbered 53,291 people. In addition to the members of their families, there were altogether about 175,400 people engaged in agricultural activities or depending on agricultural activities for their livelihood. They raised about $245 million worth of agricultural produce - an achievement that went unnoticed by other people. If they had not brought forth such a huge amount of agricultural produce, we would have lost an equivalent sum in foreign exchange. They also produced supplementary foodstuffs such as pigs, chickens, eggs and others. Some of them were exported, thus earning for Singapore quite a large sum of money in foreign exchange.

3.45 p.m.

We can thus see that these farmers play a very important role in our national economy. But, Sir, most of them are very poor. They have to work very hard, going out to the farms in the early morning and working there until late in the evening. Almost every member of the family has to do his share of work. Even if he is a student, he has to help when he comes back from school. But the prices these farmers get for their agricultural produce are normally very cheap, and therefore they find it difficult to make ends meet. At times they may be able to sell their produce at higher prices and so make more money, but they have to set aside part of their money to tide them over difficult times, such as when prices are low or when a misfortune befalls them, as happened in last December's flood, and in the recent drought when they incurred heavy losses.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if the farmers' land is affected by clearance, then their lives will be more miserable. Normally, when a certain piece of land is earmarked for development, it is acquired by Government and then put under the control of a statutory organisation. Usually, on a change of landlord, their rent is increased and their burden naturally becomes heavier. Prior to the actual development of the site, the farmers are notified not to engage in agricultural activities any more in view of immediate resettlement. It is true that in order to avoid unnecessary losses, the farmers dare not engage in agricultural activities any more.

However, Sir, sometimes the farmers have been waiting for three or four years, and there is still no sign of resettlement. So during this waiting period, they have no income from agricultural activities. They have to maintain their livelihood on their previous savings. It is envisaged that they lead quite a hard life. When the time comes for their resettlement, their houses, fruit trees and vegetable crops which are the result of their years of toil, have to be abandoned overnight. They have to make use of the small sum of compensation and start everything all over again when they have been resettled in the resettlement area. Moreover, when they are resettled in new sites, the land allocated to each of them is not more than 14 acres. Since the land area is smaller than what they had previously, their agricultural produce will be less. Their income is accordingly less. Also, when they are resettled at the new site, they have to spend some money on building a house. This will have a higher assessment and they have to pay increased property tax. They also have to pay other overhead charges. All this will impose an additional burden on them. All along they have been suffering in silence. Because of our economic policy, they have to make some sacrifices for the good of the whole nation. This merits our praise. But the cause of the farmers' suffering is an artificial one, i.e., the prices of agricultural produce are subject to fluctuation, and so at times they have to sell at a loss. How pitiful this is!

The difficulties of the farmers and the fluctuation of prices in agricultural produce have been pointed out by me on many occasions, and the reply has invariably been the same - that prices are governed by the law of supply and demand. So the Minister is not in a position to do anything. However, the Government can at least do something to alleviate the farmers' plight. It is to be admitted that since the inception of the Primary Production Department, it has rendered assistance to the farmers in many fields, especially in making an effective check on swine and chicken epidemics, introducing new scientific methods of production and new agricultural medicines to farmers. In general, farmers appreciate such services. However, Sir, when we compare the livelihood of these farmers 10 years ago with their livelihood today, we can see that there is almost no improvement at all. Since the Government is allocating a large sum of money to the National Development Division, we should expect something better from this Department, and the Government should try to improve the standard of living of the farmers. As far as I can see, the main cause of the fluctuation in prices of agricultural produce is random production. For instance, whenever there is a festival, the farmers will try to produce more in order to sell at a higher price. But since all farmers have the same idea, more will be produced and so prices will fall. In the end, all their toil and sweat come to nothing. Instead they lose money when they sell.

Generally speaking, farmers are poor, so they have to depend on loans not only in the initial stages of farming but also in the process of production. They have to borrow at high interest rates from chit fund companies, grocery shop proprietors, landowners and others. The farmers may have to repay their loans in kind. In the end, the farmers have no control over or say in the prices of their produce. If they transport their produce to distant markets, they cannot make much money, because their produce is limited and the distance is far. Moreover, farm work takes up a lot of time and they cannot assign a person to a particular job. So, as usual, the farmers have to sell their produce through a middleman who can sell it at prices much higher than what they pay to the farmers. Some people may say that our market is a free one and if the farmers are not satisfied with the price paid by one middleman, they can go to another middleman for a better price. But we must know that since the farmers are tied down by their loans and by the other factors that I have mentioned, they are not able to do this. It behoves the Government to lend them a helping hand. The Government cannot shirk its responsibility to the farmers. It has the bounden duty to improve their lot.

For these reasons, I urge the Government to set up an organisation - a National Agricultural Planning and Sales Board - to help the farmers, with the following functions:

(1) to get specialists to collect information and data and analyse what agricultural produce is best for cultivation, and in what quantity, and when and where to sell it. All this will give the farmers some sort of guidance, instead of letting them go about their business blindly.

(2) This board can set up a factory to process any excess agricultural produce and preserve it in cold storage or for export. It can also be canned.

(3) The board can give loans to farmers who need them, so as to save them borrowing at high interest rates from moneylenders and from being exploited.

(4) More important, the Government can help the farmers by engaging in wholesale buying and selling of agricultural produce. The exploitation by middlemen will therefore be done away with.

Since the Government will do all these things for the farmers without making much profit, what little there is can be spent on overhead charges and maintenance, so that both farmers and consumers will benefit. In other words, all the people will benefit from the setting up of this board.

Let me reiterate: if the Government is sincere in taking care of agricultural development, now is the time for it to consider seriously how to improve the lot of the farmers.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, under this subhead, I would also like to give my views. According to statistics, the farming population is 10 per cent of the total population. Most of them stay in the rural areas. As a Member of Parliament for a rural constituency, I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to praise the con tributions our farmers have made to our country. Because of their efforts and hard work, they are able to provide us with cheap agricultural produce to meet all our needs, so that we have no need to import from abroad such commodities as chickens, eggs, and pork. These items are daily necessities. Although land is limited, the farmers, because of their hard work, are able to raise $250 million worth of agricultural produce every year. This is not a small sum. Of course, I will not deny that in this respect the Primary Production Department has done a lot to help the farmers. For instance, this Department has taught them how to use scientific methods of production, how to produce better strains of livestock, how to prevent certain livestock diseases, and how to vaccinate their livestock. All these measures have helped the farmers in their agricultural produce and animal husbandry.

4.00 p.m.

However, I have received complaints from farmers in my constituency that recently the Primary Production Department has stopped its services of free chicken vaccination. I feel that this free service should not be stopped. The expenditure involved is not very much. Therefore, I would urge the Minister to continue with this service for the farmers.

Secondly, the Member for Jurong has mentioned the prices of farm produce. As far as I know, prices fluctuate all the time. In July or other periods of the year, pork and chicken are sold at lower prices, whereas the prices of feed-stuffs for pigs and chickens are relatively dearer so that in the end the farmers will be selling at a loss. This will force them to borrow money from other sources. I hope the Government can render some form of assistance to the farmers to tide them over their difficulties. I would like to ask the Government whether they are giving subsidies to the farmers. In many countries farmers are subsidized. Whenever the market price is low, the Government will subsidise the farmers, or they will buy the farm products from the farmers in order to maintain market stability. I wonder whether our Government can do the same.

Thirdly, I would like to ask the Minister whether the Government can help the farmers to organise co-operatives. The main function of the Primary Production Department is to help the farmers. Therefore, the staff of the Primary Production Department should devote more time to help them. I have also heard that some of the staff of the Primary Production Department do not know how to make use of their free time. I would suggest that during their free time they should go to the farms and discuss with the farmers the formation of co-operative societies so that they will not be exploited by middlemen. In this way, farmers can buy what they need at a lower price, including animal feeding stuff, and sell their produce at higher prices.

Mr E. W. Barker: Sir, may I first deal with the queries from the Member for Havelock. The Jurong Fishing Port and Production Market began operation in February 1969, a little more than a year ago. All the 65 licensed fish merchants previously operating in Ellenborough and Clyde Terrace Markets had removed to Jurong. The Fisheries Office at Telok Ayer Basin was also removed to Jurong on the same day. I am happy to say that both the Fishing Port and the Auction Market are now operating very smoothly.

All the fish merchants have formed themselves into one association. Meetings are held regularly between the association and the Primary Production Department to ensure that any problem that may arise is given prompt attention.

Generally, the fishermen, the fish merchants and the retailers have adapted themselves very well to the new environment. They have organised themselves in groups to travel daily to Jurong. Each night about 3,000 to 4,000 of them congregate at the fish markets from one o'clock in the morning to about six o'clock the same morning to conduct their business.

A new car park will be opened next month to reduce the problem of traffic congestion. Since the opening of the port, many foreign vessels have landed fish for sale in Jurong and many more joint fishing ventures have been launched to catch fish for sale. Ice plants, cold storage and processing facilities are being provided in an area of about 40 acres to serve the fishermen and fishing vessels. There has been a marginal increase in retail prices of fish, but it is hoped that with the increased landings, the prices of fish will return to normal and may even be lower than before, if an abundant supply of fish is available.

The Member for Havelock also wants to know why work stopped at the Jurong Abattoir on the 5th and 6th of August. This was due to a misunderstanding between the officer-in-charge of the Jurong Abattoir and some private butchers. In order to prevent vandalism and mischief in the abattoir, no private butchers or workmen were allowed to enter the grounds until a few hours before slaughtering began. Owing to a misunderstanding on the agreed time for entry, some private butchers and workmen who came earlier, were refused permission to enter, and so they made a big fuss. As a result, their colleagues decided to stop work. The misunderstanding was subsequently settled and the abattoir resumed operation on the 7th August.

I will now deal with the Members for Jurong and Sembawang who proceeded to tell us so much about farming. May I say at the outset that there is a shortage of land in Singapore. Land is getting scarcer and scarcer in spite of our efforts to reclaim land, and it is for this reason that when we resettle farmers it is not possible to allocate to them more than two acres. Both the Members, of course are rather concerned with the plight of the farmers. The Member for Jurong says that they have suffered in silence for ten years. I disagree. The Member for Sembawang has pointed out that they export annually to the tune of $250 million. If that is true, they cannot be suffering. If they are, they are certainly not suffering in silence, because they have good spokesmen, for example, the two Members here.

The Members main grouse is the price. In answer to their questions, I have said before and I am afraid I have to repeat myself if they want to repeat themselves here, that prices are regulated by demand and supply. If demand exceeds supply, prices go up. If supply exceeds demand, prices go down. You do not need to be an economist to know this. But when the price of eggs goes up, I have to answer questions in Parliament from Members who want to protect the consumers. Consumers grumble that the price of eggs has gone up. When the price of eggs goes down, I have to answer questions from Members who represent the farmers. I am afraid there is not much the Government can do to regulate the price of farm products. We have tried co-operative societies, but they have been a dismal failure. Do farmers need subsidies? If so it is the Minister for Finance who will have to decide whether or not a subsidy should be given and, if so, how much should be given. The Government is not abandoning the farmer. As far as possible, we want to be self-sufficient in food. I say "as far as possible", and we render considerable assistance to farmers. I think Members know that the Primary Production Department is concentrating its efforts on developing intensive farming techniques such as hydroponics, mushroom culture, broiler production, intensive pig production and so on, because of the shortage of land. I understand that many farms have now increased their production without much additional land. I can assure both Members that the effort to encourage farming will continue, but I would agree with them that there is still room for improvement.

As for chickens, half a cent per dose of vaccine was charged for vaccination of chickens with effect from 1st January this year. In addition, a service fee of half a cent per chick will be charged for carrying out the inoculation at the farmer's premises with effect from 1st April this year. The charging of a fee for chick inoculation is not new. Since 196l, a charge of half a cent has been made for vaccinating each day-old chick. This charge was merely extended from a day-old chick to adult birds from the 1st January this year. This is a small charge which I think the farmers can well afford to pay. The charge of half a cent for vaccinating poultry at the premises of the farmer is really not an exercise to make money, but to encourage the farmers to do the inoculation themselves and not to rely on the Department. In fact, a short course has been conducted to train all farmers who wish to learn the inoculation technique, but some of them perhaps cannot be bothered about the course and hence the small charge.

4.15 p.m.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, perhaps due to the difficulty in communication between the Minister and me, he has not given any reply to my questions. When the Hansard is published, I hope he will read my suggestions.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1501*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Madam Chan Choy Siong and Mr Lim Cheng Lock.)

Sir, is the Minister for Law and National Development aware that hotels in Singapore are collecting as much as $40 per month per taxi if taxi drivers wish to get into the hotel grounds to pick up passengers? This is serious and I wonder whether the Minister is in a position to declare some space in the hotel grounds for the use of taxis so that this extortion of poor taxi drivers can be stopped.

Sir, will the Minister also consider increasing parking spaces for taxis at Raffles Place and other places where there are shopping centres so that it will be convenient for tourists to call for a taxi?

Mr Lim Cheng Lock (Kampong Kapor): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to find out from the Minister whether there is a policy on the marking out of parking lots in the city area. As you are aware, Sir, recently the marking out of parking lots has been extended to places away from the central area. Can the Minister inform us whether the policy of marking out parking lots is to ease traffic congestion or to earn revenue without consideration for the hardship caused to shopkeepers in the area?

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Changi asked for more parking places for taxis in hotels. The Ministry of National Development is not in charge of hotel grounds. It is the proprietor of the hotel that is in charge of the grounds. But if there is space outside the hotel on the main road, then we will provide spaces if available. I do not know whether the Member for Changi has specific instances of any particular hotel in mind. But if particulars are given to me, I will ask the Superintendent of Car Parks to look into the matter in order to provide more parking spaces.

The Member for Kampong Kapor wants to know whether the policy of providing car parks is to make money or to ease congestion. The answer is the latter. To give you an example. We have to impose a very small parking fee for motor-cycles and scooters. This is not to make money but because motor-cycles and scooters were parked all over the town in a haphazard fashion, even along passage-ways and under buildings. There were not enough parking spaces for scooters in the central area of the city. As a net result, we had to impose fees for parking. The object is to see that they are parked in an orderly way. Certainly the five or ten cents charge has not been put on as a tax measure. But with the growth of traffic in the city and the increase in the number of vehicles, I am afraid we have to extend the places where we allow cars to park. The underground car park at Raffles Place is full every day, and so is the multi-storey car park in Telok Ayer. We intend to build a few more car parks and we are hoping that private enterprise will also build some. The whole object is to provide adequate parking spaces and to ease traffic congestion. Some of my officials think that we should keep cars out of the city and stop them perhaps somewhere near Kallang Park and ask their occupants to come by buses. But I am going into deeper problems and if I do not stop, I will go on to mass transit.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Minister did not get my point. Taxis are usually parked outside hotels. But if the taxi drivers want to come into the hotel grounds in order to pick up passengers, they have to pay a certain sum of money, as much as $40 per month. Therefore, the Planning and Chief Building Surveyor's Department, when approving plans for hotels, should make provision for parking spaces for taxis.

Another point which the Minister has not answered me is whether he will consider increasing the parking spaces for taxis at Raffles Place and other places where there are shopping centres so that it will be convenient for tourists to call for a taxi.

Mr Barker: Sir, like the Minister for Communications, I am not aware of this $40 a month fee which has to be paid.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: That is why I am bringing up the matter.

Mr Barker: Is this fee paid to the hotel?

Mr Sim Boon Woo: This amounts to extortion and blackmail.

Mr Barker: Sir, if it is blackmail and illegal, why appeal to me? Surely a taxi can go into the hotel grounds to bring passengers. Sometimes, it is the other way round. Some taxi drivers extort from passengers. This is one case where the hotels are extorting from taxi drivers.

As for parking lots, I think the Member is aware that taxis are not allowed in hourly parking lots. This is prohibited under the Motor Vehicles (Parking Places) Rules, 1959. However, this prohibition has been relaxed in certain circumstances where taxis find it necessary to park within a parking place on payment for reasons other than the purpose of plying for hire during such period. For instance, letting down tourists in shopping areas and having to wait for them. But then when we allow them to do this, cases of abuse arise and, from time to time, have been reported and action has been taken where taxi drivers have tried to ply for hire from parking places.

As for providing more taxi stands, we will look into it. But as I have said just now, it is not only a question of parking spaces for taxis but parking spaces for the general public. With the increasing number of vehicles on the road, we need more and more parking spaces.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I request the Minister to instruct the Superintendent of Car Parks that in the marking out of parking lots, he should be more discriminate and considerate to shopkeepers and have regard to the type of business and the loading and unloading activities which they have to perform.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Car Parks Division has provided some 50 loading and unloading bays at its 174 parking places comprising over 10,000 parking lots. Invariably, all licensed godowns fronting parking places are provided with loading and unloading bays, whilst other individual requests are considered on the merits of each case. On receipt of an individual request, a census is taken to ascertain the frequency of loading and unloading activity and traffic conditions in the street. In areas of exceptionally high frequency of loading and unloading activity, no parking lots are drawn. But I will pass on to the Superintendent of Car Parks the suggestion of the Member for Kampong Kapor.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I propose to take the suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 5.00 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.29 p.m. until 5.00 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.00 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 1207 (contd) -

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1551.

Mr Speaker. Sir, it is undeniable that since 1959, when the P.A.P. came to power, the Government has been looking into the problem of rural development. The Government has been allocating large sums of money every year to improve the lot of the people in the rural area. This deserves our praise. However, the same position does not apply to my constituency. It has now been designated a developed area. I do not know whether this is fortunate or unfortunate for us. As Jurong has been designated a developed area, the earning of a livelihood here is more difficult than in other constituencies. Applications for any project must go through many departments, and must pass through the hands of many kuans, that is, the Chief Building Surveyor's Department, the Planning Department and also the Jurong Town Corporation. After an application has gone through these departments, it will be sent to the Urban and Rural Services Committee for approval. After this, it will be sent to the Projects Committee. Only after it has been approved by this committee will work on the project commence. Just imagine! An application has to go through many departments. Naturally this is a great waste of time. Usually it will take about one or two years before work on a project will commence. Roads which should have been repaired are neglected. In the course of time, their condition begins to deteriorate. In the end, the Government has to incur more money to repair the roads.

Another point is this. If an application is sent to a certain department for approval, it will usually shirk its responsibility and will not deal with it. This is what I was complaining about the other day - the roundabout way an application has to go through. It may well be that after two or three years there will be no definite reply whether a project can be undertaken. The Urban and Rural Services Committee may not be in favour of a certain project for various reasons.

Take the case where it is necessary to metal a road. Of course. I myself will not agree to a rural track being metalled if the place is to be developed very soon. However, even applications for minor repairs have been turned down. I would appeal to the Minister to consider the applications favourably, as the rural people also pay taxes. Therefore, as taxpayers, they have a right to better roads. Even if they are required to remove, they will have to tread along good roads. It will then be easy for them to remove. Since they are obliged to pay taxes, they should be given good roads. What I mean to say is that if major repairs cannot be made to certain roads, then minor repairs should at least be undertaken. This will alleviate the suffering of the evicted people, because if they use the bad roads when removing, they may incur additional expenses. Of course, I realise that the Government has difficulties in matters like this. However, I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to consider these points. If there are certain holes in the roads, they should be filled up so that the people who are evicted can travel along them more easily.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Jurong has been a member of the Urban and Rural Services Committee for some time. Therefore, he must have known very well the way the U.R.S.C. goes about these matters.

With regard to the question of repairs to roads, this will depend on certain factors. The Member for Jurong also knows very well the factors which we must take into consideration. The Urban and Rural Services Committee gives equal consideration to every request from the various constituencies. Jurong Constituency is undergoing rapid development. Therefore, the U.R.S.C. will always consider carefully the various requests for projects in this constituency. Many places, especially the Jurong area, will be developed in the future. In the circumstances, any request for a project to be undertaken in that constituency is handed over to certain departments, for instance, the Jurong Town Corporation, the Land Office and the Chief Building Surveyor's Department. This is to ensure that the project in question is related to certain sites which are about to be developed. Therefore, there may be some delay in approving the projects.

With regard to the requests to repair roads, the U.R.S.C. is always giving them favourable consideration. Every constituency is allotted a certain fixed provision for construction work and development. Therefore, the U.R.S.C. cannot approve the provision of hundreds of thousands of dollars for the repair of certain roads without giving it due consideration.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, since the Parliamentary Secretary has agreed that major repairs to roads cannot be undertaken but that minor repairs to them can be considered, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(5) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Madam Chan is not here.

The sum of $12,060,230 for Head 1207 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1208 -

The Chairman: Amendment No. (l)* Mr Sim Boon Woo is not here. Mr Teong Eng Siong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1208 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr. Seah Mui Kok.)

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Public Works Department spends a large sum of money every year on public projects usually exceeding $10 million. These projects include the building of roads, bridges, canals and other construction work. We cannot deny that the Public Works Department has made a big contribution to the development of Singapore. However, there are certain shortcomings in this Department which call for remedy. I would like to advance the following three points. First, is there duplication of work when the P.W.D. is engaged in the construction of roads? For instance, in order to widen a road, the P.W.D. will do away with the pavements along that road. After several days, it will once more construct pavements along it. There may be a divider in the middle of a dual carriage-way. After some time, this divider will be removed. The road may be turned into a one-way traffic road.

5.15 p.m.

But the strange thing is that after two or three weeks the divider is again put back in the centre of the road, and once more the road becomes a dual carriage-way. This laying and dismantling and again re-laying the divider is really surprising and incomprehensible. What does all this show? It shows that the Public Works Department normally does not plan its projects in advance, and traffic congestion is the result. In the end, public funds are wasted. I hope the Minister will supervise this Department and stop duplication of work.

I would like to give another example of the same manner of work done by the P.W.D. at the junction of Rochore Canal Road. Work on the central circus has been delayed for one or two years, because it has been changed about in the manner I have described. I do not know if the Minister is aware of this.

There is also another point. When roads in the urban areas have to be repaired, I suggest that repair work be done at night. The reason is that traffic is normally very busy during the day, especially in the city area such as South Bridge Road and Robinson Road. If road excavations are necessary in order to lay underground cables, it will be better to carry them out in the night. If they are done in the day, they will cause traffic congestion because school children have to go to school and people to their shops or offices. This heavy traffic will also cause accidents. So I would ask the Minister whether he will consider instructing the Department concerned to carry out their road repair work at night instead of in the day.

Another question that I would like to ask the Minister is whether or not he has received reports of malpractice by some contractors. In my constituency I find that certain roads have pot-holes or cave-ins about six months after they were made. This shows that the foundation is not well laid. Normally there should be a solid base before the road can be metalled. So if the base is not properly laid, the surface will, of course, cave in. I ask the Minister if he is aware of reports of malpractice by certain contractors. If there are, I would like him to take measures to deal with them.

Mr Seah Mui Kok (Bukit Ho Swee): Mr Speaker, Sir, on rainy days, especially when the rain is heavy, you will see pools of rain water collecting at various bus shelters and at pedestrian cement pavements along MacPherson Road and Mountbatten Road, and perhaps in other parts of Singapore. Because of the stagnant rain water at these bus shelters, people who want to board the bus have to step into the rain water and so wet their shoes, socks and trousers before they can get into it. The only way they can avoid getting wet is either to remain at the bus shelters and not board the bus, or to take off their shoes and socks and roll up their trousers before stepping into it.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I request the Minister for National Development to instruct the Director of the Public Works Department to look into this matter to see that the rain water flows into the drain and not collect and stagnate at bus shelters and pedestrian cement pavements along MacPherson Road and Mountbatten Road, or in other parts of Singapore?

Mr E. W. Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may first deal with the Member for Bukit Ho Swee. He mentioned the constituencies of MacPherson and Mountbatten. I am inclined to ask: What about Toa Payoh or Bukit Ho Swee? Apparently the problem is this. Most of the existing bus shelters were constructed many years ago at a time when traffic conditions were not as bad as they are today. In those days buses were able to stop on the metalled carriage-way without seriously interfering with the flow of traffic. But now we have many more vehicles on the road, and buses cannot stop on the metalled side without blocking vehicles behind them. So as a result they go onto the side of the road. This has caused land adjoining the edge of the carriage-way to be damaged, resulting either in ruts or holes, so that, as the Member said, passengers get wet when they step into puddles. However, the Public Works Department is now constructing more and more proper bus bays and also carrying out rather urgent minor widening of certain parts of the roads for these bus bays. This will convert the land between the bus shelters and the edge of the road into a proper carriage-way, and you can see some in Queenstown and Toa Payoh. We hope to increase them and lessen the plight of passengers on rainy days.

If I may now deal with the Member for Sembawang. He grumbles about roads and asks whether there is co-ordination within the P.W.D. about the building or digging of roads. He must not blame the P.W.D. alone, because it is not the P.W.D. alone that digs these roads. The Public Utilities Board also digs roads. They dig roads to lay water and gas pipes or electric cables. Another board that digs roads is the Singapore Telephone Board. They are quite busy in extending telephone services in Singapore. So between the P.W.D., the P.U.B., and the S.T.B., there was chaos at one time. The P.W.D. would build a road and metal it. Then the following week the P.U.B. would come along and dig it to lay a water pipe; they would then fill it up and metal it. Then on the following week the S.T.B. would come along and dig it up again.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: It happened to Thomson Road.

Mr Barker: This happened in the past. I understand from my colleague, the previous Minister for National Development, that when he took over the office of National Development, he had occasion to call a meeting of all the road-diggers - if I may call them such; and he gave them certain instruc tions and asked them to co-ordinate. Apparently they did it with some success, but not sufficient, as far as I was concerned when I took over the Ministry.

About two years ago I also had occasion to call a meeting of all the road-diggers. They posed certain questions to me. I directed that once a road was newly surfaced or built, no one was to dig it without the permission of the Director of Public Works. Then the queries came: "What happens if a water main bursts? What happens if an electric cable short-circuits? What happens if there is a gas leak? We cannot wait for the permission of the Director of Public Works to attend to these matters." Anyway, we have settled that, and I have directed that no department is to dig any newly-built road without the permission of the Director of Public Works. Of course, if a gas main is leaking, or water is running out of a pipe, these can be repaired immediately. This has led to some measure of success. So if you see a newly-built road or a newly-surfaced road, and someone comes and digs it the following week, please let me know.

The Member for Sembawang also wants road repairing to be done at night. This entails certain problems. It means double pay, and not all types of work can be done at night without bright lights. But there have been certain cases where, to avoid traffic jams in congested parts of the city, work has been done at night. This has been done at the barest minimum. But if we can meet the question of costs, I would agree with the Member for Sembawang that if all road work can be done at night - and I am told that not all road work can be done at night - inconvenience to the public will be lessened.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I have two supplementary questions to raise. First, the Minister has said just now that because there was no proper liaison between certain departments certain projects could not be properly co-ordinated. This has led to undesirable incidents.

5.30 p.m.

According to my understanding, both the P.U.B. and the Public Works Department are under the portfolio of the Ministry of Law and National Development. Therefore, the Ministry should have long ago taken measures to co-ordinate these departments so that such incidents would not have happened. The Minister has said that no such incidents were repeated recently, but I tell him that the same things did happen. For instance, according to what I understand, the construction work along Mac-Pherson Road has been carried on for half a year. So far it has not been completed yet. I would like the Minister to investigate why work on it has been so slow.

There is another point the Minister has not answered me, and that is whether he has received any reports about malpractices by certain contractors. If so, the number of cases reported last year.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, no doubt the Public Utilities Board and the Public Works Department are under the same Ministry, called the Ministry of Law and National Development. I can assure the Member that these are two separate Ministries - the Public Utilities Board being under the Ministry of Law and the Public Works Department under the Ministry of National Development. The only connection is the Minister.

It is not that nothing was done. I told the House just now that even before I was appointed as the Minister in charge of National Development, my predecessor, Mr Lim Kim San, had called a meeting in order to co-ordinate road digging. The Singapore Telephone Board is not under my Ministry, but you can rest assured that the Minister for Communications has given me full powers to deal with the Telephone Board as far as road digging is concerned. In the ultimate result, I am responsible for road digging.

As for malpractices, I have not heard of any - there may have been - but if there are, they are dealt with by the Public Works Department. Where the contractor is at fault, he is either suspended for a suitable period or liquidated damages claimed against him. I am afraid I know of no specific cases in the last year. There may be, but I am not aware of any.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (In Mandarm): Sir, in view of the Minister's detailed reply, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong: (2) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1208 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Madam Chan is not here.

The sum of $8,496,890 for Head 1208 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1209 -

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1209 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2013*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Selvadurai)

Sir, against this subhead 2013 is a sum of $4,250,000. As it is of an annually recurrent nature, I assume that this represents the total cost for keeping our streets bright at night. As this is by no means a small sum of money, I am just wondering what measures are being enforced, to see that our street liehts are maintained not only efficiently but economically.

I have noticed that on most evenings on my way home at about 6.30 p.m. and sometimes even earlier, quite a lot of our street lights are already on. This seems to me to be a waste of public money, because during most days it is only after seven in the evening that our streets become really dark. I think we can regulate this street lighting more efficiently. If we could delay switching on the street lights by one hour every night, I should imagine we could save about 10 per cent of that $4,250,000. which will come to about $425,000 per annum. It is also not an uncommon sight to see street lights left on into the day. Sometimes even at 12 noon you can still see the street lights are on. We have jacked up the P.U.B. charges, and we are asking our people to pay more for P.U.B. biÍls, but what are we doing to economise?

Mr P. Selvadurai (Bukit Panjang): Although the lighting of rural roads in Bukit Panjang Constituency has gone apace, there is a fairly large stretch along Woodlands Road which is still unlighted. It is dark. I remember that in the last Budget session there was an undertaking that this stretch would be lighted. I wonder if something could be done about this.

Mr E. W. Barker: I will first deal with the Member for Bukit Panjang. I understand practically the whole stretch of Woodlands Road has been lighted, work having been done towards the end of last year. Apparently now that there are lights, there have been requests for the lights to be made brighter. Perhaps there are not enough lights, but these requests are being considered and brighter lights will be put in when the needs of other areas for street líghts have been satisfied.

The Member for Jalan Kayu grumbles about street lights coming on at any time. He has a point, because I myself wonder why sometimes the street lights were on before sunset. Apparently the answer is this. All street lights in Singapore are at present controlled by two types of automatic switches. First, those controlled by electric time clocks are set to switch on at 6.45 p.m. in the evening and switch off at half-past six the next morning. Some of the older type of electric time switches cease to operate when electric supplies are interrupted due to breakdowns, and this affects the time device. Consequently, these clocks have to be reset manually after electricity supplies have been restored. In such circumstances, street lamps may be on when they should be off or vice versa until they are reset. Hence the Member's query and mine. There are apparently 20,000 such time-clock switches in service, and it would cost about $100,000 to replace them with a more modern type of time-clock switch which is not affected by failure of electricity supply.

The second type of switches are those controlled by photo-electric cells which are switched on automatically when night falls and switched off with the advent of daylight. Street lights in certain areas which are controlled by photo-electric cells may come on and off depending on the darkness or the brightness of the sky. As the times of sunset and sunrise vary during the course of the year, so will those lights come on and off accordingly.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: This is not very satisfactory. I would invite the Minister concerned to take a drive from Newton Circle all the way up north between 6.30 p.m. and 6.45 p.m. It is quite an interesting sight to see that the street lights seem not to be following any fixed time schedule at all along the same stretch of road. Nevertheless. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment leave, withdrawn.

Mr Selvadurai: Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1200 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2014.

I am concerned with the policy relating to the building of rural roads and I hope that the Government will reassess it. The current policy, if I may say so is, by and large to build gravel roads and not metal roads in the rural areas. Our experience has been that these gravel roads, although they are cheaper to build about - one-third of the cost of metal roads - tend to deteriorate sooner, and with every heavy torrential downpour, we discover that they revert to their original state in a matter of 18 months. This means that we have to reapply all over again for the resurfacing of these roads, incurring the same amount of money once every 18 months. I wonder if we could instead metal these roads piecemeal without having to metal them wholesale. We could do half the road at a stretch so that in the long run we really save money.

Mr Barker: The Member has made a valid point. In fact, the Urban and Rural Services Committee agrees with this view that when you make up roads to kampong standards, it is better to tar them, even if this costs a little more, than merely to gravel them and spend less, but then you see your money washed away in 18 months. The policy now is to spend more money and tar these roads rather than just make them up with gravel.

Mr Selvadurai: I am grateful to the Minister and I beg leave to withdrawn.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Selvadurai: Mr Speaker, Sir I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1209 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2015.

This subhead relates to drainage and it is also connected with floods. I know that we have statements in this House about flood alleviation measures, but I am really concerned with the silting up of rural drains. I will not be exaggerating when I say that the condition of many of these drains in my constituency is really shocking. Every time we have a heavy rain, the drains silt up and there does not seem to be any kind of recurrent maintenance to clear these and other water-ways so that there is a smooth flow of water. Could not some system be introduced to maintain these drains, not merely in my constituency but also in other rural constituencies as well? To a large extent, this does contribute towards easy flooding of residential areas. And this has become acute over the last few years.

5.45 p.m.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am aware of this problem. But responsibility for the drain depends on where the drain is. If it is along a public road, then it is to be maintained by the Government, either the Public Works Department or in some cases, the Ministry of Health, Cleansing Unit. But there may be drains which run through private property, then it would be the duty or the responsibility of the owner of the land to keep them clean and the water flowing. Action can be taken by the Ministry of Health against owners whose drains are clogged and breed mosquitoes. But that is merely a punishing action. To get more positive results perhaps Members of Parliament who have these problems can make applications direct to the Urban and Rural Services Committee which will consider and approve the applications if the funds are available.

Mr Selvadurai: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $21,022,300 for Head 1209 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1210 -

The Chairman: Mr Sim, amendment (1)*.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I am not moving.

Mr P. Selvadurai: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1210 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr. J. F. Conceicao.)

Sir, this is really a small point. It concerns the activities of Building Inspectors in rural constituencies. Very rigid application of the law quite often stands in the way of house owners and hut owners from repairing or renovating their houses whenever there is a leakage after rain or whenever there is dilapidation or something like that. Perhaps directives could be given to these inspectors not to be too harsh on these residents. I would have thought that the main purpose of the law is to prevent people from actually building new structures or extending their structures without getting proper permits from the owners as well as the Chief Building Surveyor's Department. Quite often, house owners are pulled up by the Chief Building Surveyor's Department on very small and venal points. Sir, could something be done about this?

Mr E. W. Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, some building inspectors are over-zealous and do their job by applying strict rules, as a result of which complaints come to Members of Parliament. But whenever a house is rebuilt or repaired, one question arises and this sometimes leads to difficulty as to whether or not the landowner's permission and signature should be obtained. The landowner is only too happy to get rid of his tenant or occupier and, in most cases, he will not sign. So we have not applied the rule rigidly here. Members can tell their constituents that, for minor repairs to temporary dwelling houses, these can be approved without the landowner's signature. In addition, applications for reconstruction of temporary houses which are dilapidated - in other words, demolish and rebuild - can also be made and approved without the landowner's permission. But there is one danger to this. In many cases, they say that they are rebuilding the same house, but they do not and then they are in trouble. They do not need the landowner's permission provided they rebuild the same house on the site. If the room is 10 feet by 10 feet make it 10 feet by 10 feet. In that case, you do not need the landowner's permission. But if you are extending the house completely, then you will need the landowner's permission.

Mr Selvadurai: It is very good news indeed, Mr Speaker, Sir. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the names of Mr Sim Boon Woo and Mr P Selvadurai -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1210 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2003.

The Chairman: Amendment (2), Mr Sim, Sir.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Mr Selvadurai.

Mr Selvadurai: I am also not moving,

The sum of $1,303,690 for Head 1210 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1212 -

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1212 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the same name of Mr J. F. Conceicao)

Sir, with about 90 years of history, the Botanic Gardens is a widely used recreational ground by our citizens and tourists from all parts of the world. And a large sum of money is being spent to maintain the greens and flowering plants. I would like to suggest to the Minister the introduction of an entrance fee for the Botanic Gardens so that the people will realise that the beautiful scenery in the Gardens that they enjoy seeing as well as the other good things in life are not free.

Sir, I would also like to suggest to the Minister that stern action be taken against people who litter the Botanic Gardens. Sir, if you take a walk early in the morning in the Gardens, you will find a lot of newspapers scattered allover the ground. The night watchmen should be more vigilant and the culprits who are caught littering should be dealt with.

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): Mr Speaker. Sir, I think there is no doubt of our intention to ensure the development of Singapore into a garden city. Presumably, the Botanic Gardens has an important role to play in this campaign. Yet when one looks at the staff list of the Botanic Gardens, one is surprised to see the dearth of trained horticulturists in such a staff list. According to the 1968 Botanic Gardens Annual Report, one of the curators whose field, I think, is horticulture was transferred to the Trees and Parks Division. This brings me to the point that it would be more efficient, in my view, for the purpose of Singapore's development as a garden city, that the Botanic Gardens and the Trees and Parks Division should come under one management, so to speak. We certainly hope to see continued success in the Government's efforts to turn Singapore into a garden city. Towards this end, I think there should be more consideration given to generating citizen participation in this exercise.

I have noticed on television that the Primary Production Department is advertising the sale of garden fertilisers. I think the Botanic Gardens or, if it is joined up with the Trees and Parks Division under a kind of joint management, this organisation could run courses for the general public or programmes of public education over radio and on television to encourage our citizens to make their homes and surroundings resemble attractive gardens and add more pleasure in their lives.

Mr E. W. Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Katong has made many valid points. I agree with him that the Botanic Gardens is under-staffed. I have asked the Chairman of the Public Service Commission to advertise locally and abroad for more expert horticulturists and silviculturists. With more qualified men on the staff, it will be possible for lectures to be delivered even to members of the Citizens' Consultative Committees, because I feel that it is only with mass participation that we can achieve our object of making Singapore a garden city. I am afraid that at the moment it is not possible for them to deliver lectures. They have their hands full. But I would ask Members of Parliament to ask their Citizens' Consultative Committees to go round their constituencies and find out the barren places which are the best spots where perhaps trees or even plants and hedges could be grown. We could make this combined effort, and funds from the Urban and Rural Services Committee can be used for this project. But when the trees, hedges or plants have been planted, it will be beyond the means or the present capacity of the Botanic Gardens or the Trees and Parks Division to maintain them in good condition. I think Members will agree with me that it is no use planting if your plants are half-dead or half-baked.

6.00 p.m.

What I have in mind is planting done by the Trees and Parks Division but maintenance by members of the public. In other words, the Citizens' Consultative Committees should get together and choose places for planting, and when the plants have been grown, the maintenance will be completely done by members of the constituency in which case they will not only maintain the plants but also protect them. With the co-operation of all Members of this House, I am sure we can make Singapore a greener and cleaner city within a space of a few months.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker. Sir, the Minister has not answered any of my queries.

Mr Barker: I am sorry, Sir, I got lost in the garden city! The Member for Changi refers to newspapers in the Botanic Gardens, a fact which seems to have upset him. We have our litter laws, but it is not easy to catch people throwing rubbish. The Botanic Gardens is now open at night, and when people go there, you do not expect them to sit on the wet grass. So there is no harm in people sitting on newspapers. They forget, of course, to bring the newspapers back with them. But we have gardeners in the Botanic Gardens to clear the mess the next morning. I hope the Member for Changi's real objection is not against the newspapers but the people who use them. I am sure he will agree with me that we need more open spaces in Singapore, like the Botanic Gardens, MacRitchie Reservoir and Seletar Reservoir, where not only the old but also the young can get away from the city, hold hands if they like, and make love if they like.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, there are nine watchmen provided for the Botanic Gardens. Is it possible that they be told of this matter so that a cleaner place can be achieved? My question is this. A token amount as entrance fee is to be introduced at the gate. Can the Minister tell us when this will be introduced so that people can understand that all that we are enjoying is not free?

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, there are nine watchmen. They are there not only to watch the people but also to protect the orchids and the plants. Sometimes people are held up in the Botanic Gardens, but the main job of the watchmen is not to watch the people.

As for a charge we have been considering whether or not to impose a charge, even though a nominal one, to get the message across that everything is not free in Singapore. At this stage we have decided not to impose a charge. It is one place which one can still visit free, and I hope it will remain like that for some time.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope the Minister is not advocating making love publicly! I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $577,140 for Head 1212 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1301 -

The following amendment stood in the names of

Mr Ho Kah Leong and Madam Chan Choy Siong-

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Estimates of Expenditure for 1970-71 - Committee of Supply

Mr Ho Kah Leong: I am not moving. Sir. The Chairman: Madam Chan Choy Siong is not here.

The following amendment stood in the names of Mr P. Govindaswamy and Madam Chan Choy Siong

(2) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy and Madam Chan Choy Siong are not here.

The sum of $5,795,040 for Head 1301 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1302 -

The Chairman: Amendment No. (1)*. Mr P. Govindaswamy is not here. Mr Selvadurai.

Mr P. Selvadurai: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the time has now come for us to look into the efficiency of the ambulance services. I believe that to phone for the ambulance and get it is quite an experience now. The telephone call is received all right, but all kinds of questions are asked; for instance, who the patient is and what he is suffering from. All kinds of irrelevant questions are asked and quite often the person calling for the ambulance is not able to answer them. Is this really necessary? Because if the person asking for the ambulance knows what the patient is suffering from, then, of course, he may not have called the ambulance in the first instance. It can be quite embarrassing and it is also causing a fair amount of confusion in the minds of the public.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to raise two minor points in respect of two hospitals in my constituency namely Middleton Hospital and Tan Tock Seng Hospital. When one passes by these two hospitals along Moulmein Road, one gets a very gloomy and unhealthy feeling when one sees the drab frontage of Middleton Hospital. There is lalang growing beside the iron bars. I am just wondering whether some face-lifting cannot he done to the frontage of Middleton Hospital. With our present policy of making Singapore a garden city, perhaps that portion of the hospital can be improved by planting flowering plants so that it can look more graceful and also take away the drab atmosphere.

A few days ago a Member of this House mentioned his very unpleasant experience in a hospital in relation to the rude conduct of a nurse. There could have been many reasons for that nurse's behaviour. At this juncture, I do not know exactly the reason which prompted her to behave in that manner. But perhaps her behaviour could be attributed to the fact that she was overworked. Someone has drawn my attention to the fact that in the third-class ward where there are many patients, there are insufficient nurses to look after them. They are, in fact, overworked. I had one occasion to visit one of the hospitals myself and I observed the conditions there. But unlike the Member who was unfortunate to experience the rudeness of a nurse, I found that our nurses were in fact very diligent and dedicated. Therefore, I was very surprised to hear the complaint of the Member. I have also found that the work in the hospital is too heavy for the present number of nurses to cope with, I would like to say the other way round about them. If at all we want to say anything about their work, it is that they are in fact working very hard and they deserve our praise instead of criticism.

Another reason which has prompted me to have a very high regard for our nurses is this. I remember one occasion when I turned on the radio and there was a programme called Nurses' Week. This is one of the programmes that are put on the air every week. It is a week which the nurses set aside as a dedication to their noble profession. This programme shows a number of activities which focus attention on the nurses' dedication to their work and the nobility of their profession. Coming back to our own nurses, generally speaking, they are quite aware of their responsibility and the nobility of their profession. My observation is that - and I think many people have also expressed this opinion - the nurses have made valuable contributions to the well-being of the people, and from their work in the hospitals, we can say that they have, in fact, tried their very best. I would like to pay a tribute to them. Perhaps the Minister for Health would like to show some appreciation of the hard work that they are putting in by employing more nurses to lighten their load.

The Minister for Health (Mr Chua Sian Chin): Mr Speaker, Sir, first I would like to deal with the matter raised by the Member for Bukit Panjang. He says that whenever a telephone call for the ambulance service is made, a number of questions are asked by the person in charge of ambulances. He says that these questions are irrelevant. At first sight, they may appear to be irrelevant, but there is a reason for asking the questions. It is essential to have certain information when an ambulance is called. First, we must establish the identity of the person who is calling for the ambulance in order to determine the genuineness of the call. There have previously been numerous false ambulance calls and the asking of these questions has reduced them to some extent. The reason why it is necessary to know where the patient is and what he is suffering from is that the call can be answered by the ambulance nearest to the patient. For example, the Thomson Road General Hospital provides a 24-hour ambulance service, and if the patient is nearer to that hospital or around that area, it will be faster if an ambulance is called from that hospital. Therefore, the question asking for that information is certainly not irrelevant. If a patient is suffering from an injury caused by an accident, then the call is directed to the Fire Brigade ambulance. Of course, one question which is usually asked is, "May I know who is calling?" Sometimes the person who is in charge of the telephone may not ask it in a polite manner. He may ask, "Who are you?" We have issued a directive to all persons in charge of the ambulance service to be polite to members of the public when they call for an ambulance.

6.15 p.m.

Coming to the Member for Moulmein, he said that whenever he passed the two hospitals in his constituency, he had a gloomy feeling about it. I do not know whether it is the appearance of the hospitals or whether it is because they are hospitals. I agree with him that it is good to make hospitals attractive. But the trouble is that these two hospitals in his constituency are very old buildings, and a lot of money is needed to do any form of face-lifting. But whatever can be done will certainly be done to make them more attractive.

The other point which the Member made concerned the behaviour and work of the nurses in the hospitals. He did take the opportunity to pay them a high tribute. That, of course, is welcome and I shall convey that message to the nurses, notwithstanding the fact that the Member himself is a trade unionist.

A case of rudeness was brought up by the Member for Punggol. In this respect, may I say that in any organisation there is bound to be a black sheep. Of course, the rude behaviour of the black sheep should not necessarily reflect on the good work of the majority.

Mr Selvadurai: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,

Mr Ang Nam Piau (Thomson): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1068.

Sir, the medical services in our country can be considered as one of the best in South-east Asia.

This is an acknowledged fact of which the people of Singapore can be proud. The medical services have improved in many ways recently, but there is still more room for improvement. For instance, we should expand and improve the services of the Outram Road General Hospital casualty ward.

Very often I have been around this casualty ward and I see that it is very busy and crowded. There are many patients, and many of those who are injured have to wait for more than an hour or two before they are admitted. If the Minister says that this is due to inadequate staff, then my view is that perhaps they lack efficiency. I hope he will do something to improve the efficiency of this casualty ward, so that our medical services can become even better.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, may I thank the Member for Thomson for saying that our medical services have greatly improved recently. May I also add that I agree with him that there is always room for further improvement. He mentioned the Emergency Unit as a place where there could be more improvement. He also mentioned that whenever he visits it, he finds it rather crowded. May I give him the reasons?

We have only two Emergency Units for the whole of Singapore. One is at the Outram Road General Hospital and the other is at the Thomson Road General Hospital. There are normally only two doctors manning the Emergency Unit and in certain hours it is reduced to one doctor at the Outram Road General Hospital Emergency Unit. Formerly there was only one doctor on duty at all times. So there is improvement in this respect.

The time taken to attend to an emergency case depends on how busy the Emergency Unit is, in cases of dire emergency, the patient is rushed through as quickly as possible, cutting through the queue of waiting persons. However the majority of cases which go to this Emergency Unit are not really emergency cases. In the past year there has been an increase in the number of non-emergency cases attending the Emergency Unit. Therefore, it invariably takes up a good deal of the staff's time to screen and examine them, and, as a result, the time spent in attending to them has taken away the time which should be devoted to truly emergency cases. However, the problem is under constant review and we have made certain other improvements in the organisation of the Emergency Unit. We have made more space available so that more doctors can be put on duty.

Another solution to this problem which I have stated before is to direct persons who come for non-emergency treatment to the nearest private practitioner who opens after office hours. A list of these clinics has been supplied to the Ministry by the Singapore Medical Association. However, there is no complete solution to guarantee that persons attending the Emergency Unit will not have to wait. There must be adequate facilities and sufficient medical staff. There must also be co-operation between doctors in private practice and the Government service and the public should understand the actual role of the Emergency Service, i.e. if the cases are of a non-emergency nature, they should not go to the Emergency Unit and clog up the work of the doctors there.

However, it is hoped that with the taking over of the British Military Hospital at Alexandra in 1971, the pressure on the Emergency Service will be decreased and consequently the waiting time can be brought down.

Mr Ang Nam Piau: (In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1204.

Sir, may I, in my discussion, range over my next amendment+?

• The amendment reads as follows:

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1226

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, everyone is aware that in order to provide better medical services for the people of Singapore, the Government has set up out-patient clinics throughout the island. These out-patient clinics are set up with the money derived from the taxes that Government collects from the people, and these clinics belong to the state. They are owned by the people of Singapore. However, certain doctors in these out-patient clinics treat these clinics as their own personal property, totally disregarding the public interest.

Mr Speaker, Sir, on one occasions some members of the national volleyball team and I went to a certain inoculation centre for inoculation. It was about 1.30 p.m and there was a slight drizzle. Many people were queueing up for inoculation in a very orderly manner in front of the porch of this clinic, to shelter from the rain. They were waiting for the arrival of the doctor. He arrived in his car. However, when he saw them standing on his parking lot, he sounded the horn to warn them to clear out. But because it was raining at that time. it was unreasonable of him to ask them to get out of the porch. At first I intended to reason with him, but before I could approach him I saw a signboard fastened to the pillar with the words, "Private Reserved Parking Space". So I gave up the idea. But I still am of the opinion that all these inoculation centres are set up by the Government, and the porches at these centres are also built by the Government. They are not built by the doctors themselves. How can they abuse their privilege and monopolise the use of the porches? It is common to see doctors making use of these porches as their parking lots. Even in the MacPherson Out-patient Clinic, which is in the constituency of our Minister, that is no exception.

6.30 p.m

What measures does the Minister intend to take to deal with this kind of conduct?

Another point relates to the attitude of the nurses at the out-patient clinics. Just now my colleague, the Member for Moulmein, paid a fine tribute to their work. However, I cannot agree with him on this point. I spoke at great length on the attitude of the nurses when the Budget was debated last year. There are still some nurses who are very contemptuous of the patients. I have received complaints by the residents and I myself had occasion to witness an incident. It was like this. An elderly woman who was very ill was taken to the MacPherson Outpatient Clinic for treatment. On arriving there she vomited and dirtied the place. At that very moment a nurse came along. She was quite beside herself. She screamed and shouted at this poor woman. This elderly woman was very ill and probably the fact that she had travelled a long distance on bumpy roads to the clinic caused her to vomit. This particular nurse by not rendering any help to her was already making a very grave mistake; but to show callousness towards such a patient was to add insult to injury. Many patients at the clinic were very unhappy about this incident and tried to argue with the nurse. She, with a scornful look, walked away. Since she dared to show her insolence and rudeness before so many people, you can imagine what more she could have been capable of. I wonder whether the Minister has noted such rudeness and irresponsibility shown by some of the nurses and, if so, what measures he intends to take to deal with them.

Just now the Member for Moulmein paid a tribute to the nurses, but now I am doing the contrary - I am criticising them. I would like the Minister to convey to the nurses who work in his Ministry my feelings of dissatisfaction with them and my criticism of them.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am indeed in a very interesting position! The Member for Moulmein has asked me to convey his tribute to my nurses, and now I have been asked by the Member for Paya Lebar to convey to them his criticism of their rudeness to members of the public. I shall convey both.

Sir, there are altogether 27 out-patient dispensaries scattered all over Singapore to serve the public. For the year 1969 there were 47 doctors and 83 nurses working in these out-patient dispensaries. The total number of out-patients seen and treated was 1,573,171 in 1969. But the number of complaints regarding rudeness received against the doctors and nurses in 1969 was only six. The two instances of rudeness which the Member for Paya Lebar has narrated to this House were not, however, among these six complaints of rudeness.

In the out-patient dispensaries, the doctors and nurses are in constant contact with the public. Large crowds are seen there daily, and in such large crowds there are bound to be patients of different temperaments, and some of them may make unreasonable demands. When their demands are not met, they do sometimes make rude remarks and lodge official complaints. However, the staff of the out-patient dispensaries have frequently been reminded to be courteous to members of the public. This is done by routine inspections of out-patient dispensaries by senior members of the administrative office of the Out-patient Services. Whenever a complaint is received, a visit is made to the particu1ar out-patient dispensary and an investigation is carried out. The officer concerned is asked to give an explanation and a written report of the incident. He is also called up and interviewed. If it is felt that there is still room for improvement in his conduct, then he is warned and advised to be less abrupt and more helpful in his dealings with the public. In general, the staff of the out-patient dispensaries have been told to be always polite to the people and to be sympathetic to their requests. But in dealing with such a large crowd of patients, there are likely to be instances of frayed tempers, and these are investigated and dealt with.

As I said just now, out of the six complaints received, every one of them was investigated and was found to be unsubstantiated. Unfortunately, the Member for Paya Lebar did not see fit to submit his complaint to me. If he had done so, the matter would have been properly investigated. It will greatly assist the work of my Ministry to provide a courteous and efficient medical service to the public if Members can give specific instances of rudeness by the staff of the Ministry immediately upon their occurrence either to me or my Director of Medical Services, and not bring them up in Parliament. Of course, if we did not adequately deal with the complaint, the Member could air the matter in Parliament. Unfortunately, this was not done. What we need is a specific complaint, backed by witnesses if necessary, so that the complainant can assist the Ministry in identifying the officer concerned and the case dealt with properly. As you know, in any incident there are always two sides to the story. It is only fair that both sides must be heard and considered. However, if the complaint is substantiated, disciplinary action will be taken against the officer concerned. As Members know, I am not a person who will flinch from taking firm and drastic action against any officer who is guilty after the case has been fairly and justly considered, whatever the consequences. A vague and general allegation will certainly not help us at all. As a matter of fact, my Ministry welcomes substantiated complaints, not only from Members but also from members of the public. We regard substantiated complaints as a means of intelligence report that tells us whether the operations of the Ministry have been carried out efficiently and successfully.

My Ministry has no less than 20,000 members - about 10,000 in the Hospitals Division and 10,000 in the Public Health Division. Unless we have a system of feed-back by members of the public, including Members, who can make substantiated complaints, there is no good way in which we can know whether every one of the 20,000 members is working efficiently. I myself can make field visits, which I often do, but the snag here is that when they know that I am coming, everything appears all right.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in any organisation there are bound to be a few black sheep whose bad behaviour brings a bad name to the whole organisation. Our problem is to identify these few black sheep and take tougher action against them. With a view to making it easier for members of the public not only to identify these few black sheep but also, on the other hand, to commend those officers who are courteous and efficient, I have last year introduced a system whereby every officer in my Ministry has to wear a name tag. This is to ensure that these few black sheep should not get away with their anonymity and mar the good name of the majority of our doctors and nurses who are working, in the words of the Member for Moulmein, "very hard to maintain the best medical service in this part of the world."

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to ask the Minister to reply to my question of porches in front of the clinics being used by doctors to park their cars.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: The Minister mentioned name tags. Are they only in English? If so, how do you expect non-English speaking people to identify the officer?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: To answer the Member for Jalan Kayu first. Unfortunately, the name tag has to be in English. If it is in the four official languages, it will make it quite big.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Is it not possible to give a number to it?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: I think there is a certain degrading effect if you have a number instead of a name on the tag.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: The Member for Anson agrees with me. You do not number ordinary persons, you number only prisoners. Is it not so?

An hon. Member: What about policemen?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Anyway, I am not in charge of policemen.

The point raised by the Member for Paya Lebar is about porches being used by doctors for parking cars. Of course, they are used for that purpose. The Member asked whether patients should be allowed to take shelter under the porches if it rains. Of course, to a doctor who has humanity at heart, I am sure that irrespective of directives from the Ministry, he will allow human beings, rather than his car, to take shelter under the porch.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not very satisfied with the reply given by the Minister. For example, in the MacPherson Out-patient Clinic, there is a big compound. At least 30 cars can be parked in the compound. Why should the doctor attached to that clinic park his car under the porch and not in the compound and allow the patients to stand in the sun or in the rain?

6.45 p.m.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I cannot understand the point of the Member for Paya Lebar. If it is a porch for a car, then it must be used for a car. Is the Member suggesting that the porch be used as a waiting place for patients and that the car should be parked elsewhere? If that is his suggestion, then we will look into it. But as far as I am concerned, there has not been any complaint that there is insufficient waiting space for patients in the clinic.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, what I meant was that the porch should be used by the patients who have to wait for the doctor, and not by the doctor to park his car.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think we can go further than this.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, notwithstanding the unsatisfactory reply given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Hwang Soo Jin -

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1261.

The Chairman: Mr Hwang, amendment (5).

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: I am not moving, Sir.

The sum of $49,934,180 for Head 1302 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1303 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Tay Boon Too -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1005.

The Chairman: Mr Tay, amendment (1).

Mr Tay Boon Too: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Inche Abdul Aziz, amendment (2).

Inche Abdul Aziz Karim (Kallang): Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1071.

Sir, you will recall that the Minister for Health told this House during Question time on the 22nd of December, 1969 [cols. 175-6], that the work of the Industrial Health Unit will be expanded to include the following:

(i) to assess the occupational health problem in Singapore by selected examinations and evaluation of the working environment of our workers;

(ii) to study and draw up preventive measures appropriate to local conditions;

(iii) to formulate procedures for periodical medical examinations as a control on hazardous occupational groups;

(iv) to undertake factory inspection of working environmental conditions and enforcement of relevant sections of the Factories Ordinance and related occupational legislation, normally administered by the Ministry of Labour, with reference to the health of the workers;

(v) to advise and give information on occupational health to industries;

(vi) to prepare codes of practice and modifications to present legislation and subsequent implementation;

(vii) to undertake research and teaching in connection with the primary objectives of the occupational health programme in Singapore.

I am sure workers at large do welcome the Minister's concern for their health and welfare, and would be grateful if all the objectives of the Industrial Health Unit could be fulfilled. However, Mr Speaker, Sir, it is hard to be convinced that the health of the workers can be well taken care of by the proposed Industrial Health Unit. The proposed plan provides for only one senior health officer, while I consider that more than one doctor will be required to look after the industrial health of around 80,000 workers in the manufacturing industries. An authority, the President of the Society of Occupational Medicine, in an article reproduced in a souvenir magazine commemorating a public forum on "Health, Labour and Productivity", in conjunction with World Health Day, estimated that at least five doctors would be required to run the Unit efficiently, besides being adequately staffed and equipped. The differences in the reckonings of the Ministry and the President of the Society of Occupational Medicine are too wide apart to make both right. One must be terribly off the mark. I am convinced that the Industrial Health Unit requires more than one doctor to function satisfactorily. Will the Minister for Health make a categorical statement that one doctor will be sufficient to achieve fully the programme laid out by him?

Let us examine the dramatic changes that have been brought about by the Minister for Health. Instead of an ad hoc inter-departmental industrial health committee, we have a permanently established Industrial Health Unit within the Public Health Division. Instead of having a doctor shuttling to and from the Ministry of Health and the Factory Inspectorate on two mornings each week, we have a full-time senior health officer attached to the industrial Health Unit. In addition, there is an inspector of Factories pinched from the Factory Inspectorate. There are also going to be two trainee public health inspectors and two student nurses at the earlier stages, if I presume correctly. Without casting any aspersions on the incumbents of the two latter mentioned posts, I would like to say that this is the biggest joke ever played by the Minister for Health so far. It will take a couple of years more before these trainee public health inspectors and student nurses qualify and gain experience in the field of industrial health.

I must say that the Minister for Health had the greatest audacity to announce in Parliament on the 22nd of December 1969, that there were going to be a full-time medical officer - this is granted now - an industrial hygienist with an engineering background, and eight other professional and non-professional staff. It is agreed there will be one stenographer, one general clerical assistant, one watchman and one office boy. The Minister for Health knows as well as I do that the Industrial Health Unit does not depend so much on stenographers, clerks, watchmen and office boys. Where are the professional staff that he knows will give adequate industrial health services? I think the Industrial Health Unit is under-staffed and rickety and will be unable to realise all the objectives laid down by the Unit. I hope the Minister for Health will be able to assure this House that the Industrial Health Unit will not be like some bogus insurance companies that we can find in Singapore.

Sir, what has gone wrong between 22nd December, 1969, and now? If I have my finger at the right point, I think it is the Treasury boys who are against the plan of the Ministry of Health just as they were against the upgrading of the post of Chief Inspector of Factories and the stepping up of the expansion of the Factory Inspectorate. Probably the Treasury bureaucrats who sit in their cool, clean and comfortable offices are not very convinced that Singapore's economic progress depends partly on the health of the workers. The Minister for Health will be rest assured that all workers and thinking people are behind him in his fight, if he makes it his fight, with the Treasury to get a bigger allocation for the Industrial Health Unit. I would have been able to thank the Minister for Health heartily if he had set up the Industrial Health Unit on a more sound basis. I hope the Minister for Finance will take note that it is important to safeguard the health of the workers in the course of industrialising the country, for here lies the future of Singapore.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Industrial Health Unit appears to be a very favourite subject of the Member for Kallang. He appears to have a lot of knowledge of what is going on. May I just tell him that Rome was not built in a day and so is our Jurong industrial estate? It takes time to build up the Industrial Health Unit. As he has admitted, progress has been made because formerly we only had an ad hoc unit and now we are about to establish a full unit. Certainly it should have given him much pleasure to know that progress has been made. May I also say that a medical officer will be immediately appointed to head the Industrial Health Unit? A second medical officer will be sent on a one-year World Health Organisation fellowship to be trained in industrial health in the United Kingdom in September 1970. A mechanical engineer will be recruited as a trainee for industrial hygiene, and after an initial period of familiarisation with local factory conditions, he will be sent overseas for specialised training. The 1970-71 Estimates, into which I am sure the Member for Kallang has looked, also provide for the recruitment of subsidiary technical staff, i.e., two Public Health Inspectors, one Inspector of Factories, two industrial nurses and clerical staff. More doctors will be recruited if experience shows that this is necessary. In other words, the Treasury has not been that uncooperative.

Inche Abdul Aziz Karim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will not apologise to the Minister for Health for my great concern for the health and welfare of the workers. After all, I am a trade unionist and, being the people's representative in Kallang which has factories and where the residents go to work in the factories, naturally I must show some concern, if not serious concern, for the health and safety of the workers. However, since the Minister has assured this House that he proposes to expand the Unit as time goes by, and I believe that the Ministry of Finance has shown greater co-operation and probably will show greater co-operation in the future, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Abdul Aziz Karim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1081*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao)

Sir, it is realised and generally agreed that we must industrialise rapidly. I hope that in the course of industrialisation, we do not forget problems arising from industrial activities. One of these problems is that of water and air pollution caused by refineries, steel works, cement works, foundries, quarries, power stations and other forms of industrial undertakings. Sir, ten years ago, before we began to industrialise, the problem did not cause much concern. Even the Ministry of Health did not reckon that the problem required special attention and forward planning, as was in the Annual Report of 1967.

I would like to quote one instance where the Ministry of Health has failed the people in this direction. The Ministry seems not to have been bothered in the least about the health hazard caused by cement dust to the health of school children and teachers at Towner School, Whampoa School, Balestier Mixed Boys and Girls School and also to the health of the residents staying at the Government quarters along McNair Road and Towner Road.

7.00 p.m.

The residents, out of concern for the health of the school children, teachers and themselves, have complained about the dust which they have had to breathe almost 24 hours a day for many years past.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this cement factory has a fleet of tracks which run at intervals of approximately ten minutes and, in the course of transporting the cement, have to pass along the schools and houses along Towner Road and McNair Road. When these trucks pass by, a thick dust of cement fills the air. It covers the houses, cars, furniture and other household effects. Washing is made dirty. Health becomes endangered. The residents waited and waited for some form of action to be taken by the Ministry of Health. It is my understanding that the Ministry of Health had proposed some measures, but they were ineffective because there were no built-in dust trapping devices. However, the factory was allowed to continue its operations during all these years. How long more will the residents, school children and teachers in the area have to suffer? The residents, frustrated at having to wait for the Ministry of Health to do something positive, re-directed their complaint to the Prime Minister's Office. This may be a surprise to the Minister.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: It is no surprise to me.

Inche Abdul Aziz Karim: Mr Speaker, Sir, this cement factory is not the only factory causing air pollution. However, I am glad that the Government will be taking measures to combat the pollution of air and water in Singapore. I think we are fortunate in having a Prime Minister who does not like smoke to such an extent that he will not address a group meeting if there is smoking going on.

Coming back to the issue under consideration, Sir, I am informed by the Prime Minister's Office that the cement factory will be relocated to another site as soon as negotiations for an alternative site have been finalised. Four and a half months have passed since the representation to the Prime Minister's Office was made. If the Minister for Health is so concerned - I hope he will be concerned about this problem - he will do something quickly to solve this problem which is affecting the health of the people staying in that part of Kallang.

In my opinion, air pollution in Singapore is caused at the present moment more by vehicles than by factories. In spite of what the Registry of Vehicles and the Police may have boasted they have done, they have been total failures in punishing culprits responsible for air pollution. I think more drastic measures must be taken by the authorities as a whole in combating atmospheric pollution.

The Ministry of Health may want to believe that the problem of air pollution is but a minor nuisance. But I do not think so. I do not think that the condition of our public and private vehicles can compare more favourably than that of the public and private vehicles in other places where the density of population is comparable to that of Singapore. The maintenance consciousness among vehicle owners in Singapore is truly shocking. One can witness hundreds of cars, lorries and buses emitting black fumes and smoke, and still the drivers and owners get off scot-free. It must be realised that petrol engines also cause air pollution. According to some studies made in the U.S.A. and Australia, petrol vehicles cause some 60.6 per cent of total air pollutant in the air and emits 92.9 per cent of total carbon monoxide emitted by all sorts of air pollution.

I would suggest to the Minister for Health to press for legislation to make it necessary for vehicles to undergo a stringent test every five years. The owners of such vehicles should be made to rectify all faults before the vehicles could be allowed on the road again. Any owner who uses such a vehicle against the instructions of the authorities should be brought to book, and persistent offenders should have their vehicles confiscated and condemned, and no vehicles should be auctioned by the Government itself until the faults have been rectified. It must not try to make a quick profit.

Furthermore, those who market bulk petrol should be made to reach an agreement among themselves not to market lead added fuel. I have received advice from some competent authority that if all oil companies do not compete with one another by adding lead additives, we would probably make some headway to reduce air pollution. One other measure which we can take at this stage is possibly to make it necessary for ships to fit anti-smoke devices. Factory chimneys should be made tall enough and anti-smoke and dust traps should be installed. For factories discharging effluence, properly designed traps should be installed to minimise discharge of harmful effluence into the sea.

Last but not least, I hope the Minister will accept my suggestion that in order to keep an eye on the problem of air pollution, a council should be set up as soon as possible comprising doctors and engineers from the Industrial Health Unit, the Environmental Health Division, the Public Utilities Board, the Public Works Department, representatives from the industry, the Automobile Association of Singapore, and other relevant bodies who can co-operate in this respect. I do not think any kind of inter-departmental committee composed of Government departments will be able to make a proper assessment of this problem and combat pollution of our atmosphere.

Mr J. F. Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, the responsibility for environmental health is one which everybody should shoulder. This point has been made abundantly clear during the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Hear, hear!

Mr Conceicao: We have just heard the Minister underlining this point. But there is one aspect of environmental degradation about which there has not been sufficient arousal of public concern. This is in respect of atmospheric and water pollution. There are already rumblings in the air regarding the danger of industrial pollution. We have just heard some rumbling from the Member for Kallang, and I would like to rumble in consonance with what he has said!

The Chairman: Does the Member mean fuming!

Mr Conceicao: Sir, no one can deny that industrial waste contributes to bad air. We must be alert at all times to see what can be done to filter the noxious fumes that emerge daily out of our industrial chimney stacks.

As I have mentioned, there is gathering an accumulation of concern about this problem. But I think that the same concern, if not more, should be expressed over air pollution caused by automobile fumes. In an article written for the 1969 edition of the Britannica Year Book entitled Agenda for the future, the recent President of the United States, Mr Lyndon Johnson, speaking on air pollution said, '...the automobile is probably the greatest single poisoner of the air.' I am quoting from page 42 of the book. I think more positive and firm action should be taken with regard to this form of chemical warfare, which in the long run is being directed against our children, for the effects of this pollution are slow and insidious and may not be fully felt except by the coming generation.

In connection with pollution from motor vehicles, Sir, I say that the Health Ministry should investigate and decide what are the standards of emission of smoke that may be permissible, and sternly enforce these standards.

An hon. Member: The Ministry of Communications.

Mr Conceicao: Good, there should be co-operation between the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Communications. It is somehow a happy coincidence, Sir, as I was looking through the latest edition of the London Times dated 19th March, 1970, in the Members' Room today I came across a letter to the editor from a public health inspector urging the limitation of air pollution caused by motor vehicles. The relevant point that I would like to bring out from this letter is that in America there is, and I quote:

"...a minimum standard whereby the emissions of hydro carbon and carbon monoxide are limited. Further it is expected that other controls will be introduced in the near future.'

Again I learned from the same letter that in Belgium there are standards enforced in relation to pollution from diesel engines. What are the standards, if any, that we set? I hope that we do not lag behind in this respect. Just as we have mobilised public concern for the cleanliness of our city with regard to garbage disposal, litter and the mosquito menace, in the same way we have to secure the active participation of our citizens in keeping our atmosphere clean. Moreover, Sir, I say it is the Ministry of Health's duty also to awaken the different relevant sectors of our Government to their particular responsibility where air and other forms of pollution are concerned.

Apart from air pollution, there is also the question of contamination of our streams and beaches. The Singapore River and the beach area bordering the "Golden Mile" frequently exude a stench which is offensive to our sense of smell. Cannot something be done about this?

Finally, in relation to atmospheric pollution, there is the question of noise. In the same newspaper which I quoted from, there is an article on the danger of excessive noise to health. I will certainly not bother with too many excerpts, but there is one point which I would like to bring out. It is this:

'The financial loss from inefficiency and damage directly or indirectly caused by noise has been put at something between £1,000 million and £2,000 million.'

This is as far as the United Kingdom is concerned. Of course, there is the health aspect of noise in that laboratory investigations have revealed that although a person cannot hear a particular volume of noise in his sleep, there is some effect on the registration of his brain waves, and although noise seems to be tolerable to the human ear, it has some deleterious effect on the animal ear. This is certainly an indication that noise has an effect on our health. But somehow or other, I feel that there is no adequate legislation to ensure that people show respect to each other with regard to noise. I have had members of my constituency coming to me and saying that they had lodged complaints about excessive noise being emitted by certain concerns near their dwelling places, and all that the police said was that they would have to inform the development-control people, and that was all that came of it. I think the Minister, with his staff of able helpers, should be able to find out in what way we can control this problem of noise.

7.15 p.m.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, air and water pollution is again another favourite subject of the Member for Kallang. I notice also that it has become a favourite subject of the Member for Katong! I do welcome their speeches very much, because they do indicate that not only Members of Parliament but also members of the public are beginning to be aware of the deleterious effects of air and water pollution. Members of Parliament have expressed concern about the problem of air and water pollution that we are facing today. May I say that I am equally, if not more, concerned about this problem.

May I first say something about water pollution in Singapore? This is caused by the discharge of untreated trade and domestic wastes as well as the throwing of refuse into open drains and water-courses. Water pollution control accordingly requires that such liquid wastes be discharged into the sewerage system and, where sewers are not available, to pre-treat such liquid wastes before discharging them into open drains and water-courses. Measures are now being taken to improve water pollution control. These include the phasing out of all bucket latrines and the use, in their stead, of water-seal latrines or septic tanks. Where sewers are available, quicker connections to the sewerage system are being made, while extensions of the sewerage system into unsewered areas are being continued.

Sir, gully-traps will be provided to drain all liquid wastes from markets, hawker centres, and refuse-bin centres of multi-storey flats. Industrial waste waters from new industrial development projects will be required to be pretreated before discharge into open drains or watercourses, and action will be taken to induce the management of existing trade premises to start pre-treating their liquid trade waste. In this respect, a United Nations expert was invited to study the water pollution problem from industrial waste and to advise on more effective measures to be taken. His assignment has been completed and his official report is expected soon.

As such, water pollution control measures require active participation by various Government departments and statutory boards, besides the Public Health Division of the Ministry of Health. Of course, as has been rightly pointed out by the Member for Katong, the co-operation of members of the public must also be included.

I would like to announce here that a working committee, with my Permanent Secretary (Special Duties) as Chairman, has been formed to coordinate and supervise the efforts made to implement water pollution control measures. This, in effect, is some sort of an inter-departmental working committee, and members of the committee include the Director of Public Works, the Deputy Director of Medical Services (Health), the Senior Health Officer (Environmental Health), the Commissioner for Public Health, the Chief Water Engineer (Public Utilities Board), the Senior Executive Engineer (Sewerage) and the Senior Executive Engineer (Drainage and Marine), both of the P.W.D., the Senior Public Health Engineer, the Chief Administrative Officer (Jurong Town Corporation), and representatives from the Ministry of Finance, together with a member from the Economic Development Board. In other words, progress has been made on the question of water pollution.

May I now say something about air pollution, which has been touched on by two Members? Air pollution is a relatively new problem in Singapore and has been brought about by the present rapid rate of industrial development. This problem is aggravated by the exhaust gases from cars and taxis and on diesel fumes from buses and lorries, as the two Members have mentioned. A W.H.O. expert, Dr Graham Cleary, has been requested by my Ministry to assist, and he has just completed a study of our air pollution problem. As a result, steps are now being taken to form an Air Pollution Control Unit and, based on his advice and recommendations, regulations to implement control measures will be introduced. Officers will be sent overseas for training in air pollution control, after which they will staff this new unit which is being formed.

Although the problem of air pollution in Singapore has not yet become critical, we are fully conscious of the need to tackle this problem early as this will save us a lot of effort and money later on should the situation become uncontrollable. There again, much progress has been made within a short space of time.

I now turn to the specific issue of the cement mixture plant at McNair Road which the Member for Kallang brought up. I am certainly aware of the problem created there. Perhaps to the surprise of the Member, I myself have visited the place. The problem is to find an alternative site for the plant. There has been disagreement on the alternative site and, as a result, notices have been sent to the plant to comply with our health requirements. If these notices are not complied with, I can assure the Member for Kallang that prosecution action will be instituted.

Mr Conceicao: What about the problem of noise?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: This again is a new problem which has come about as a result of close living, because of our high-rise flats. This is also a matter which we will consider, and perhaps after due thought and consideration, legislation will be introduced. But, as Members of this House know, whatever laws we promulgate, unless we get the co-operation of our citizens who live in these high-rise flats, I do not think they will be effective. I hope the Member for Katong - I believe part of his constituency has high-rise flats - will be able to persuade his constituents to accept the idea of more gracious living.

Mr Conceicao: Hear, hear!

Inche Abdul Aziz Karim: Mr Speaker, Sir, from his replies, the Minister for Health has not been negligent or slow in solving one of the problems in Kallang. And I hope he will also not be slow in attending to the other problem! Anyway, I will give him a chance. If nothing is done, I shall make public statements against his Ministry! I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1601.

Briefly, Sir, I want to express my disgust over the appalling condition of our public conveniences, and the inadequacy of this provision. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten the House on whether he has any intention to improve the situation, especially in view of the fact that tens of thousands of tourists yearly visit Singapore and at some stage or other of their wandering about town they might have to make use of such conveniences.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, I cannot agree with the Member for Katong more on this point: it is important that we see to it that public conveniences are clean, particularly those in eating houses or coffee shops. I agree that the lavatories in some coffee shops are not nice places to go to.

May I say that regular inspections of eating houses are being carried out by public health auxiliaries of this Ministry. Where the toilets in any eating house are found to be dirty, the management is required to clean and maintain them in a sanitary condition. Prosecutions have also been taken against repeated offenders, much to the protest of certain Members of Parliament in whose constituencies these eating houses happen to be.

It is agreed that the number of public toilets is inadequate in our city. Therefore, action is now being taken to remedy the situation by:

(a) requiring hotels and cinemas to make their toilet facilities accessible from the outside, by day and by night for users of car parks and members of the public.

(b) making the provision of public lavatories a prerequisite in respect of applications for approval to put up car parks for hotels, cinemas, restaurants and petrol kiosks. This is a new regulation which we have just introduced.

Sir, in addition to all this, the provision of more toilet facilities is being planned for incorporation in our urban redevelopment schemes. The Housing and Development Board has undertaken to provide permanent public toilets in newly-constructed restaurants and eating houses, hawker centres, bus termini, etc., where people congregate.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: May I remind Members that they have 25 minutes left for discussion on Public Health. Amendment (5)*, Mr P. Govindaswamy.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker. Sir, earlier I unfortunately missed the opportunity to speak on two amendments. Therefore, I was thinking that most probably I might again miss the opportunity to move this amendment but it seems I have the time to move it.

7.30 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1831*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon and Mr Ho Kah Leong)

May I know from the Minister for Health how many constituencies have been cleared for resiting of hawkers and how many are uncleared? In the cleared constituencies, the hawkers have to pay licence fees, and for any small offence, they have to pay a line. They are also restricted to small pitches in the resited areas, resulting in some loss of business. In the uncleared constituencies, some hawkers do not have to pay licence fees and they are not fined for small offences. I am not objecting to the hawkers in the uncleared constituencies enjoying better privileges, but I wish to point out the difference in treatment given to the hawkers in the uncleared constituencies. I understand there is a shortage of space for resiting hawkers in the uncleared constituencies. However, I am not pressing that immediate action be taken to resite the hawkers in these constituencies. I would like the Minister to consider withholding action against hawkers in the cleared areas until all constituencies have been cleared.

I would like to draw the Ministers attention to the hawkers, particularly in Palmer Road in the back-lane behind the Central Provident Fund office. These hawkers have been shifted to a back-lane in Enggor Street, which is very narrow, and next to it there is a carpenter shop which lets off a lot of sawdust flying about. The hawkers who depend on their stalls for a living are complaining of lack of business. I would therefore like to know from the Minister whether these hawkers can be allowed to do their business in Sambau Street instead of at their present site, and whether they will be allowed to go back to Palmer Road later on when the present reconstruction work there is completed.

I also understand that a hawker near a bus-stop in Keppel Road has been asked to shift his stall, whereas another hawker further down the same road and near another bus-stop is allowed to do business there. I presume this constituency has not yet been cleared for resiting hawkers. Generally in the uncleared areas hawkers are free to ply where they like. Can I know why this hawker, who is also in an uncleared area, should not be allowed to continue doing business there? With due respect to the Minister, may I ask him if he will reconsider this case and allow the hawker to continue doing business there?

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (Tiong Bahru): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise a point about the collection of hawkers' licence fees. We all know that except for a small minority of hawkers, the great majority of them lead a very poor life. Most of them work hard during the day and can only earn just enough to keep their family alive. Very few of them have savings. Previously the authorities allowed them to pay their fees monthly. However, as from January this year, the hawkers' licence fees have been increased, and the new regulation is that they must pay three months' fees in advance, that is to say, they must pay at the beginning of the month the licence fees for the next three months. Vegetable hawkers previously had to pay only $6 per month, but now they have to pay $15. Also, they have to pay three months' licence fees, i.e., $45, in advance. Hawkers selling provisions had to pay $45 per month previously as licence fees. Now if they are also selling canned food, they have to pay $180 as licence fees for three months.

I have just said that the great majority of the hawkers are poor and their daily income is just sufficient for their livelihood. If we ask them to pay their fees for three months in one lump sum, are we not bringing hardship on them? Also those hawkers who cannot afford to pay their fees for three months in advance have to borrow, and they will have to pay interest on their loans.

I do not understand why the authorities found it necessary to change the system of monthly collections to quarterly collections. I am not sure whether this is to reduce the work of public servants. If it is so, I think we have thereby increased the hardships of the hawkers. This is a most inappropriate action. I hope the Minister will reconsider this collection of quarterly fees. We must remember that some hawkers cannot afford to pay such a big sum of money and we should allow them to pay their fees monthly.

I should also like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister about the taking-over of markets by the Housing and Development Board. All markets are at present under the Hawkers Department's control. Now the Housing and Development Board has also built many hawkers' centres and these are under the control of the Housing and Development Board. In these housing estates, chaos exists. For instance, in the same area, there are two types of hawkers' centre. There are two organisations with different systems of management. People often get confused, and this is likely to give rise to misunderstanding. As far as I know, the Hawkers Department intends to hand over the control of these markets to the Housing and Development Board in order to centralise the administration. These two bodies have carried out negotiations on this matter. I do not know whether the Minister can inform the House what decision has been taken on it.

Mr Lee Teck Him (Ulu Pandan): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, there has been some improvement of the hawkers' situation recently, but this improvement is only seen in some areas. In other areas it has deteriorated. In constituencies where the Members of Parliament are Ministers, the hawkers' situation is deteriorating. If you go to the Kreta Ayer area, you can see that the situation is very bad. If you go to some other area under a Minister's control, the situation there is even worse. For example, if you go to Dr Toh Chin Chye's constituency, the situation there is just as bad. Therefore, the Minister for Health should pay attention to those constituencies where the Members of Parliament are Ministers. In other words, hawker inspectors dare not go to constituencies where the Members of Parliament are Ministers. They only dare go to ordinary Members of Parliament's constituencies. This discrimination by the hawker inspectors is no good. I represent the people and I voice their feelings here.

At the Annamalai market, 6th m.s. Bukit Timah Road, there was an Indian man selling food. He was charged $25 for dropping some rice grains on the floor after washing his dishes. On another occasion a vegetable hawker was fined unreasonably. He was fined by a hawker inspector simply because some of the vegetable leaves fell on to the ground after the customers had selected their vegetables. The hawker inspectors are behaving like bulls and that is why they are called "earth bulls" in Chinese. Maybe the Minister will say, "This is not done by me personally." But when soldiers kill people, their commander must be responsible for their deeds. I hope the Minister will pay attention to this matter.

In the constituency of the Minister for Law and National Development, the hawkers are hawking along the streets. This is really a shameful sight for tourists to see. Yet we talk about making Singapore a garden city. The Minister should immediately remove this awful sight if we are going to make Singapore a garden city. He should go and see for himself the places where the hawkers' situation is unsightly. There are many places where he should take action. He should emulate the example of my constituency. What is the use of building a hawkers' centre at a cost of $300,000 or even more? We should build as many markets as possible for the hawkers.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: I will deal with the Member for Ulu Pandan first. He has paid what I consider to be a compliment when he says there has been some improvement since he last spoke on the hawkers' situation. He says that the hawkers' situation has improved only in ordinary M.P.s' constituencies, because our hawker inspectors dare to go there and enforce the law, whereas in constituencies which have Ministers as Members of Parliament, the situation has deteriorated.

7.45 p.m.

I must say that this is a gross misrepresentation of the actual conditions, because we deal equally with every constituency, irrespective of whether it has a Minister or an ordinary Back-bencher as Member of Parliament.

Mr Lee Teck Him rose -

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, let me finish first and then the Member can have his say. That is being democratic, is it not? To put it ironically, the Member for Ulu Pandan should be very grateful to the Ministry of Health when he says that inspectors visit his constituency to see that the place is clean, and I am wondering why he complains about that. The Member says that hawker inspectors are like "bulls" and they are not welcome in his constituency. Perhaps whenever he sees a hawker inspector, he sees red. I think I have sufficiently replied to what he has said about hawkers.

May I now turn to the Member for Tiong Bahru? He has told us a sad story of the hawkers' hardships. I beg to disagree with him. First of all, may I say that the new rates of fees for hawkers which came into force on the 1st of January, 1970, only revise and standardise licence fees for the various categories of hawkers which had remained unchanged for over 20 years. I think I dealt with them quite adequately in Parliament in answer to the Member for Anson on the 17th of this month. In general, the fees for hawkers have not been raised except for itinerant hawkers and wall show-case hawkers whose fees have been brought into line with the rates payable by pitch hawkers. I admit there is a marginal increase in fees in respect of hawkers conducting business in the immediate vicinity of a market. Perhaps the instances which the Member quoted just now about the increase in fees could be in respect of hawkers who have stalls or pitches in the immediate vicinity of a market. Their fees have been brought into line with their counterparts inside the markets. This was done for obvious reasons in order that we can encourage hawkers to ply their trade inside markets where they can enjoy better facilities, i.e., proper cover from weather, supply of pipe-water, etc. Experience has also shown that if fees outside the markets were less, hawkers prefer to ply outside them as they can get more customers since they are able to sell their goods at a cheaper rate. This is certainly unfair to the stallholders within the markets.

Talking about the hardship of hawkers, may I say that, in general, hawkers may not appear to be well-dressed but they are generally making good money. I know that an ice-cream vendor on good days can sell $100 worth of ice cream and make a clear profit of $30. Some ice-water sellers earn, on the average, $40 to $50 a day and I know of some food hawkers who even own houses for rent and send their children overseas for higher studies. Almost all hawkers do not pay income tax. This is because the Comptroller of Income Tax has no means of assessing the hawker's income, short of sending a man to stand by his stall and jot down his receipts of payments, which proposition is not feasible. Of course, I do admit that there are a few hawkers who do not earn that much money. But these few who cannot make a living out of hawking should not continue hawking.

Because of our rapid economic growth, we are now experiencing a shortage of labour in certain fields. Members must have heard the Minister for Finance say in this House that there is now a shortage of skilled and semi-skilled labour for our booming industries. We are also short of certain categories of unskilled labour. I must tell Members that the Ministry of Health is also finding it difficult to recruit cleansing workers and garbage truck drivers. Members are also aware that it is difficult nowadays to get domestic servants even if you are willing to pay $120 to $150 a month with full board and lodging plus Central Provident Fund contributions. There is also a shortage of workers in our building industry. I know of many instances of hawkers who have been offered steady jobs and who have turned them down because they frankly say that working in a Jurong factory is too irksome and they do not make as much money as hawking. Therefore, the recitation by the Member for Tiong Bahru of the hardship experienced by the hawkers, I am afraid, sounds like a familiar tune emanating from an old gramophone record which might have been valid two or three years ago but which is certainly not valid today.

Turning to the specific complaint of the Member for Tiong Bahru about payment of licence fees three months in advance, I say that this is necessary for administrative reasons and also for the convenience of the hawkers themselves. The monthly payment of fees as in the past not only meant a waste of manpower, time, money and paper work, but also resulted in laxity, which in turn resulted in loss of revenue. The present procedure is also for the convenience of hawkers who have to make only one trip to the Hawkers Department or collecting centre for the payment of fees once every three months instead of every month. Sir, may I say that no other Ministry collects fees on a monthly basis, and it is not proposed that the Ministry of Health should continue to do so. For example, motor-car licences and taxi licences are all collected on a yearly or six-monthly basis. However, adequate provisions exist to assure the Member for Tiong Bahru that we allow the Superintendent of the Hawkers Department to permit monthly payments of fees only in respect of hawkers in receipt of social welfare aid and others who can prove that payment of fees three months in advance causes undue hardship to them.

Let me now turn to the Member for Anson. He wants to know how many constituencies are already cleared of hawkers. Although hawkers have been completely resited in five constituencies, and these are called "cleared constituencies", there are cleared areas in no less than 17 other constituencies. Furthermore, most of the hawkers who used to ply along major roads and thoroughfares throughout the island have been cleared, resited and licensed. Most of them have been resited in backlanes and open areas where they do not cause obstruction to vehicular and pedestrian traffic.

The laws relating to the cleanliness of the environment are enforced equally stringently on all hawkers, be they in cleared or uncleared areas. That is what I must stress to the Members for Anson and Ulu Pandan.

Mr Lee Teck Him rose -

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Ulu Pandan need not be so excited. When I have finished, he will have his chance.

The law relating to unlicensed hawkers, however, is more -

7.55 p.m.

The Chairman: Time is up, Mr Chua.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, although the Minister has not answered all my queries, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The time allotted for Head 1303 having expired, the following amendment, standing in the names of Inche Abdul Aziz Karim and Madam Chan Choy Siong, was not proceeded with:

(6) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $31,921,040 for Head 1303 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: The remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement are Heads 0102, 0103, 0104, 0105, 0108, 0201, 0302, 0404, 0407, 0409, 1202, 1203, 1205 and 1211.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Abstract of Estimated Expenditure on pages 55 and 56 of Paper Cmd. 4 of 1970 stand part of the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1970, to 31st March, 1971," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $856,986,780 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1970, to 31st March, 1971, contained in Paper Cmd. 4 of 1970," put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has come to a certain resolution.

Resolution reported

That the sum of $856,986,780 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1970, to 31st March, 1971, contained in Paper Cmd. 4 of 1970.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolution."

Question put, and agreed to. Resolution accordingly agreed to.