1ST APRIL, 1971, TO 31ST MARCH, 1972

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day].

Resumption of debate on Question (23rd March, 1971),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001."- [Mr Teong Eng Siong].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.44 p.m.

Head 1301 (contd.) -

The Chairman: The Committee was discussing the first amendment to Head 1301 - Ministry of Finance - when it was interrupted at the Moment of Interruption last night. The Question is,

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001."

Mr Hon.

The Minister for Finance (Mr Hon Sui Sen): Mr Speaker, Sir, at the Moment of Interruption last night, I was trying to explain, in answer to the Member for Whampoa, that our civil service rules and regulations are not revised at specific intervals but are being continuously looked into so that revisions can be made as and when they are conceived, and they are then put into loose-leaf registers.

2.45 p.m.

If the Member for Whampoa knows of any particular deficiencies in the service conditions, perhaps he will be good enough to let us know what these are and I shall be very grateful and make the necessary amendments.

There was also some criticism by the Member for Telok Blangah of the manner in which personnel relations were being handled in my Ministry. The suggestion was that it was desirable to emulate the private sector in their personnel management practices and that we should introduce more modern management techniques. Like all institutions, there is room for improvement in our Ministry and we shall, of course, try our best to improve our techniques. In fact, my officers have already started courses in modern management techniques in the Staff Training Institute, and we shall try to include in them personnel management courses. At the same time, I think our officers are doing very well, in spite of the shortage that we have in the General Administrative Service, in tackling the various problems that are coming in from the Ministries. I think it is a comparatively less complex matter to be the personnel manager of a firm with 10, 15, 100 or even 500 workers than to be in charge of a Government Ministry where the workers are counted in tens of thousands. Even if you consider the private sector, when you come to companies like General Motors or Imperial Chemical Industries, I think you will find that the need for uniformity in treatment, in service conditions and any other company practices are not dissimilar to those in the Government Ministries, and that the decisions have to be consistent, and if you have a precedent, you must be prepared to apply that precedent to all other employees in the company.

There was also a comment that the grievances of the various civil service organisations were not being handled expeditiously. It was stated that there was only one Executive Officer to deal with the daily-rated workers. This is certainly not correct. If the Member will look at the Government Directory, he will see that, apart from the Permanent Secretary, the Deputy Secretary is also in charge of service conditions, and there is an Assistant Secretary dealing specifically with daily-rated workers, although a Higher Executive Officer also handles them.

With regard to the claims of grievances of workers, I believe that last year we handled the problems of the technical services, as a result of which a new scheme of service conditions was implemented in October last year. I hope this gives some satisfaction at least to the Member for Telok Blangah.

As for the other services, I think we have already stated that as far as education is concerned, we are ready to proceed with further discussions with the teachers after the budget session. The Cabinet has appointed a review committee to deal with the Police grievances, and we will follow in short order with the Fire Brigade, and the Customs and Immigration services, while in the Ministry of Finance itself we are looking into the clerical services scheme. That is all I have to add at this stage.

Dr Augustine H. H. Tan: Sir, the Minister for Finance yesterday made the point that Government can never compete on an equal footing with the commercial and industrial sectors in the matter of salaries for civil servants. He said that even if he were to grant a 20 per cent increase in all the civil service salaries, this would not take care of the problem. While I do recognise that it is virtually impossible for Government to match salaries with the commercial and industrial sectors, I do hope that the Minister will not just throw up his hands and say, "No increase at all," because I do think that some inducement is necessary, and I do recognise that people are not solely motivated by higher salaries, as the Minister himself is an outstanding example of this, because, before he got into Parliament, he was apparently earning much more than he is getting now.

The Chairman: Mr Hon, do you want to answer this? I thought you had answered it last night.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Perhaps I can make a counter comment. The position is that we will be prepared - in fact, we have considered the question of superscale salaries. I will take into account the opinion of the Member for Whampoa that increases are justified for the top echelons in the civil service.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like the Minister to clarify two points. Last night when he replied to my questions, he admitted that the prices of daily necessities were actually on the increase. He also did not agree that a loaf of bread should be increased by five cents. He thought that actually there should be only a one-cent increase. I would like to ask him what measures he will take to check this spate of price increases.

The second point is that his reply rather conflicts with that given by his Minister of State. Yesterday his Minister of State said that the Government would try its best to help promote the setting up of a consumers' association in order to protect the interest of the consumers, whereas the Minister himself was not too keen to help set it up. Who is actually right? I would like the Minister or his Minister of State to clarify.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, there was no misunderstanding on the setting up of a consumers' association. At a later stage I made it quite clear that we would be prepared to help this consumers' association if they require assistance, either in the matter of statistics or prices which our inspectors can investigate, or in the matter of quality control which the Singapore institute of Standards and Industrial Research will help to test. The answer, therefore, to the first question - in what way can we help? - is to help the consumers' association help themselves. I think I made it quite clear that I would not be inclined to advocate price control, because this would be detrimental to further supplies coming forward and would not be a solution, but we will, of course, take cognisance of any increase in prices, and if there are possibilities of lowering prices by an increase in imports from cheaper sources, we will try our best to encourage this.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): In view of the detailed explanation given by the Minister and my hope that he will take practical measures to carry out his suggestions, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1102.

I would like to find out from the Minister for Finance what are the qualifications required for the post of Senior Economist, and whether this post is currently filled. I notice that in the entire Ministry of Finance there is only one post for an economist. Sir, economists are rather indispensable people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Augustine Tan: I would like to find out from the Minister why there is only one such post.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, the post of Senior Economist in the Economic Section has not been filled. This post was at one time known as the Director of Projects in the Economic Planning Unit and was converted to that of Senior Economist in 1969. It is not expected to fill this particular post easily. Our practice has been to try to fill it by posting from the Administrative Service.

I should clarify the position that in our Economic Section there is not just one such post. In fact, a Deputy Secretary is in charge of the whole function of economic research, and there are quite a number of economists as well as engineers and others in our Economic Section. We have some difficulty in getting more economists to come forward, and we shall be glad if the Member for Whampoa can introduce any additional economists to us. What we have been trying to do is to get the Economic Research Centre of the University of Singapore to co-operate with us by seconding some personnel. They have, in fact, done so in the past. They have agreed to make available, on an overall supervisory basis a senior economist for our purposes.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I notice there are a lot of engineers in the Economic Section. I do not see how engineers can perform the work of economists. There are economists and economists. I am concerned not just with the ordinary economist, but the economist spelt with a capital "E"; that means a well-trained economist. May I know from the Minister for Finance why he has not started a scholarship scheme or a fellowship scheme to send bright people abroad, and to maintain a corps of very competent top-grade economists who are well trained? Sir, we cannot just go on the present makeshift basis whereby we have people do an analysis that such and such a thing went up by so many percentage points or went down by so many percentage points. They should make a real analysis.

3.00 p.m.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I was hoping that the University of Singapore would turn out sufficient economists for our use. In fact, they have been turning out economists in increasing numbers, but again we are in competition with the private sector for the recruitment of these graduates. I think the people who go overseas to study do not always all come back into Government service. In many cases, like the Member for Whampoa himself, they would rather serve the University upon their return than go into Government service.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, yesterday I talked about Ministers passing the buck or the ball. Here is another example. I have asked the Minister why he has not started a scholarship programme for Ph.D. economists, and he has passed the buck to the University of Singapore. I think this is a very serious matter, jokes aside.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: I agree that this is a very serious matter, and I wish the University of Singapore would turn out their own Masters and Ph.D.s.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, in such matters I do not think we could, because we do not have enough top-grade people to train as good Masters and Ph.D.s. The question is: why do we not send them to the top? In Mathematics, there is a concept called the derivatives - the first derivative and the second derivative. If we send our bright people to, say, the top ten universities in the world where they have the cream of the professions, they become derived products of these top people. When these products, i.e., the first derivatives, come back, they train other people, and we then get the second derivatives, because very few people ever measure up to the qualities of their teachers.

Sir, there is also the question of incentive, which may be lacking in Government service for Masters and Ph.D.s. I raised this point yesterday, and the Minister just brushed it aside and said, "Well, money is not the only thing that matters. What is two or four increments?", and so on. But to a young man starting out on a career, a few increments can make a great deal of difference.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think we can go on arguing indefinitely how economists should be trained, or whether they should be sent overseas. We have sent quite a number of them overseas and some have returned; and we hope that the second derivatives will have already been in evidence.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, since it appears that I have won the argument, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1373.

I am only raising a point of clarification, Sir, because there was no similar provision for last year in respect of "Housing Allowance for Expatriate Engineers, Architects, Quantity Surveyors".

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the reason for this allowance is that last year we recruited five officers, i.e., four engineers and one architect, from overseas. These officers, who assumed duty in March 1970, were appointed on contract terms for a period of three years and, in accordance with their terms of service, were eligible for Government quarters or housing allowance in lieu thereof. The eligibility for housing allowance only applies to the first term of contract.

The rates of housing allowance payable are as follows: Single officer $250 per month Married officer $350 per month Married officer with children $550 per month

The provision we have entered in the 1971-72 Estimates is to provide housing allowances for about 20 engineers whom we hope to recruit.

Dr Augustine Tan: I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1461.

May I have your permission, Sir, to range over my next amendment*?

• The amendment reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1466.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, yesterday reference was made in this House to the upgrading of civil servants in terms of salary scales. Reference was also made to the academic qualifications of civil servants. My concern is whether action is being taken to improve the performance of our civil servants.

Sir, I would like to congratulate the Minister for Finance on the establishment of the Staff Training Institute. He has given adequate details in his speech at the official opening of this institute. I note that the courses will not only benefit administrative officers but also other subordinate categories of staff who will be included in this training scheme. The Minister has generally clarified the sort of courses that will be provided. If I may ask a few incidental questions on this. Is it correct for us to presume that the instructors will come from within the civil service itself as well as from outside the service? I observe that a certain sum is designated as allowance to instructors. May I ask what the rates of allowance will be?

More fundamentally, may I suggest that a basic full-time staff be established for this institute, and that ancillary staff could be composed of part-time instructors, either from within or without the civil service? In this way it will be easier for integrated packages of courses to be designed which will afford training in depth and result in a fundamental improvement in the calibre of civil service officers in the various grades. Moreover, by having a corps of full-time staff, it will be more convenient and more easily manageable for evaluation of the effects of such courses to be made and for appropriate follow-up action to be organised. I hope also that courses will be conducted in creative learning-teaching situations without too much subscription to chalk and talk and rows of civil servants listening to the guru who may happen to be a senior officer handing it out to those who sit at his feet.

I do not notice that even under O. C. A. R, there are votes for audiovisual equipment. I hope that when courses are given, every appropriate resort will be made to devices in terms of the format of the course as well as in terms of equipment, which will facilitate training and result in civil servants considering it a worth-while and interesting endeavour to have participated in this training.

Finally, Sir, I would also like to know what is meant by "on-the-job training". If it is considered that on-the-job training is important to supplement on-course training, what is being done to formalise or institutionalise such procedures, apart from flinging the Instruction Manual at a new incumbent?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, the courses which are being run have been mentioned in my speech to which the Member for Katong has referred. In 1971 we will begin with an intermediate course in Management and Public Administration for administrative officers, and go on to advanced courses in Management and Public Administration for more senior administrative officers. We will induct and provide intermediate courses for officers in the General Executive and Clerical Services. We will have courses for Personal Assistants, Receptionists, Telephone Operators, and Counter Clerks. We have courses in the Outward Bound School and in the National Youth Leadership Training Institute for officers in supervisory positions. And we will have Language courses for officers required to pass language examinations.

The instructors for the courses will come from various sources. I think the major part will be drawn from the civil servants themselves, but for the intermediate, advanced and induction courses, experienced and senior civil servants, together with officers from statutory boards, will give lectures. But we will also invite qualified persons from the private sector and institutions such as the University of Singapore, Nanyang University, the Singapore Institute of Management, and other bodies to give courses in their fields of specialisation, especially in relation to management practices and techniques which have been mentioned by Members in relation to the civil service.

The allowances which will be paid to instructors and lecturers vary according to the level of instruction and nature of the courses. Generally, I think the intermediate and advanced course instructors will be paid up to $25 an hour, while in the case of language instruction there are various rates; maybe the Adult Education Board scale of fees will be adopted. These vary from $4 to $10 an hour. Staff members of the institute who also give lectures will not be paid any fee. There will be some permanent members, but in view of the very wide field that we are going to cover, it will not be possible for us to have full-time staff lecturers in all the various courses that we want.

In regard to equipment, the Member for Katong is quite right - at the moment we have no audio-visual equipment, but we hope that as we go on this can be provided. It is always possible, of course, to get it on loan from the various organisations. Until the need is proved, I do not think we should go immediately into the purchase of this equipment.

With regard to what is meant by on-the-job training, it means that, instead of just getting new recruits into the administrative service thrown into the jobs, as was the case before, we will provide a more supervised kind of on-the-job training. We have, therefore, in the Ministry of Finance created a Deputy Secretary's post and the officer will be in charge of all matters relating to training as well as supervision.

3.15 p.m.

The officer will see that the new recruits are properly looked after in relation to the courses attended. It is not so much a question of posts requiring to be filled by officers as the training of the administrative officers. Supervision will mean that from time to time there will be interviews with the administrative officer concerned to see that he is making progress.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, when I referred to the possibility of a full-time staff, I was thinking especially of the problem of evaluation. I think it is necessary to keep a watch on what effect these courses are having on our civil servants so that we can make improvements as we go along.

The second point that I wish to make is that one cannot really do a good teaching job without resorting judiciously to teaching equipment: just a question of exposing a formal course to an audience is not enough. I do not know whether the Minister would like to answer, but in any case I withdraw my amendment.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: The Deputy Secretary, who is a career officer, will do it. She is a lady and if you regard her as one of the permanent staff of the institute, then we have a permanent staff for this post.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (6) *. May I indicate to the Member for Whampoa that he had the same amendment under Head 0201 - Prime Minister's Office. The answer was given by the Minister of Defence.

Dr Augustine Tan: I am concerned with the economic aspect.

The Chairman: It is the same. Anyway, please carry on.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 2091*.

As you have correctly pointed out, Sir, the matter I wish to raise is similar to the one I raised under the Prime Minister's Office. But the reply given to me at that time was that the increased provision was due to the commercialisation of the Government Printing Office. But it seems to me that the sums which have to be paid are rather exorbitant. Is the Government Printer not being put in a position of monopoly in respect of the printing of such materials?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker. Sir, to some extent, the price must be the same as that for the Prime Minister's Office. The Government Printer is going to charge all departments for the work that he does. In some cases, it is not possible for this work to be done by printers outside, for example, confidential Gazette Notifications or, I assume, maybe even the Hansard. But in other cases we expect the Government Printing Office to be in a competitive position with printers outside. They will also be allowed to compete for business outside Government Ministries and departments.

With regard to the amount that is being provided, there are two parts here. One is $18,640 which is expected to be for the requirements of the Ministry of Finance. Then there is a sum of $5,000 which is subject to Treasury sanction. We have provided for various small sums to be spent in the various Ministries and departments which may not have sufficient money for the necessary vote. In such cases we will pay out of this $5,000.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, as long as there is some means of ensuring that the prices being charged by the Government Printing Office are competitive, I am satisfied. I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2093.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I would like to refer to Hansard, Volume 29, column 704, when in the course of debating this particular subhead last year, my colleague, the Member for Anson, raised the question of uniforms for office boys, postmen, etc. He described the material for the uniforms as being coarse and unrefined, and that the uniforms did not look smart. His proposal was to change the uniform for one made of better refined material. The then Minister for Finance said that the proposal of the Member for Anson was an excellent one and that he would look into the matter. Sir, during the present debate, the Member for Mountbatten has also raised the question of uniforms for our postmen. I think it is time that our postmen and other uniformed employees be supplied with a uniform made of material which is not only durable but also comfortable to wear. I hope that at least by the end of the current year, the Government will do something about changing the uniforms of our uniformed staff.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson raised the question of uniforms at the last budget session and my predecessor had promised to look into the matter. In fact, action to change the material for the uniforms was taken in April last year. However, as the supply of uniforms to office boys and other Division Four grades is a matter of agreement with the Amalgamated Union of Public Employees, we had to consult them to see whether they agreed on this matter. Following an agreement on the change of uniform, a circular to this effect was issued in December. All departments were informed that when the present stock of the drill cloth was exhausted, uniforms made with a new material, composed of 65 per cent teteron and 35 per cent viscose, would be used. The following are the grades of officers who would be provided with these uniforms: the National Museum janitor, laboratory assistants, library attendants, messengers, museum attendants, museum collectors, office boys, office keepers and lift attendants. I think the Member suggested at the last budget sitting that there should be no increase in the price of uniforms. This is not possible and the estimated expenditure has therefore risen from $43,000 to $50,000 for the ensuing financial year. However, we will use the old stock to keep the initial cost low.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I am pleased to hear of the change of uniforms. I hope our uniformed staff will also be pleased with the new uniform. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2099.

Sir, this subhead is in respect of expenses in connection with visits of experts, advisers, consultants, etc. I wish to find out from the Minister in detail the number of experts who visited us last year; that is, what are the categories of officers and what is the nature of the expenses incurred in connection with their visits, and why is there an increased provision of about $60,000.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, this is a central vote for the services of experts for the whole of the civil service. The number of experts provided by the various organisations from 1970 to 1971 was as follows: There were three experts from the International Executive Service Corps - one expert to assist in the establishment of the Anti-Evasion Unit in the Department of Inland Revenue, and two experts to help in the landscaping of parks and open spaces.

We had two experts from the International Monetary Fund to advise on the setting up of the Banking Unit which now comes under the Monetary Authority of Singapore.

We had one representative from the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, who came on a visit to Singapore at our invitation.

From the International Labour Organisation we have one expert to advise the Ministry of Labour on the collection of labour statistics.

We had several representatives from the Asian Development Bank who came to Singapore in connection with the regional transport survey.

We had two examiners from Malaysia to conduct Part II of the Membership of the Society of Radiography examination: two examiners to conduct the annual Health Inspectors' examination, and one expert to advise on actuarial matters.

We obtained three experts from Germany to help the Ministry of Education in setting up a printing school at the Baharuddin Vocational Institute.

We obtained from the United Kingdom eight experts as Directors of Studies and tutors in connection with vocation courses for teachers.

We had one expert from Israel for the Primary Production Department in connection with the development of hydroponics.

Among local consultants, we engaged a firm to advise on the organisation and accounting practice of the Government Printing Office which, as we have just now disclosed, will operate on a commercial basis.

The expenditure included contributions towards the experts' salaries, stipends, housing allowances, transportation claims, hotel charges, and fees in the case of local consultants. The expenditure on each expert depended, of course, on the agreement under which his services were obtained.

The Member has also asked me to explain the increased provision of $62,400. When the provision was first considered, we thought it desirable to have the same provision as for last year, which was $200,000. The expenditure the year before was $187,900. We, therefore, thought that $200,000 was satisfactory. However, subsequently the Technical Education Department requested an extra $62,400 to meet the expenses of eight German experts who will be in Singapore from 1971 to 1972 to assist in the establishment of a printing school. It was considered more appropriate to make this provision under the Ministry of Finance instead of the Technical Education Department. This was how the provision of $262,400 was arrived at.

Dr Augustine Tan: I thank the Minister for his kind reply, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

3.30 p.m.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3006.

Sir, this subhead is in respect of a subsidy for building standard cargo vessels, and the amount is a very big one - about $6 million. Can the Minister let me know the details of this expenditure item?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, Singapore has for some considerable time been able to construct many kinds of small ships - tongkangs, yachts, fishing vessels, tugs, water boats, patrol vessels, customs launches, barges, etc. It has no capability as yet of constructing large ocean-going vessels of the more sophisticated kind. In view of the importance of the shipbuilding industry in stimulating the very wide range of skills required in industrial development and its effects on supporting industries producing machinery, equipment, fittings and other materials required for the ships, the Government has considered how best to acquire the capability of building these larger vessels. The answer would appear to be to start with the construction of standard-type cargo vessels. Training in such construction will be systematised and productivity can be rapidly increased with the construction of each succeeding ship of the same kind. By this means, it is hoped that after the first few ships, the cost of building large cargo vessels will have become internationally competitive.

In the earlier stages, however, it will be necessary for Government to provide financial assistance, first, in training and, secondly, in subsidising the difference between international costs and costs in Singapore arising out of the initial lower productivity. The Government has, accordingly, jointly with Jurong Shipyard (Private) Limited, Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries Limited, and the Development Bank of Singapore, established the Jurong Shipbuilders (Private) Limited for this purpose. The shipyard will construct Freedom-type cargo vessels which are the standard type of vessels and are versatile in that they can take both general and bulk cargo with an approximate deadweight of 15,000 tons.

The financial assistance which has been provided for training workers is a subject of a later question by the Member for Whampoa, and I will explain it in that amendment. The subsidy financing for initially lower productivity will cover the first 15 Freedom-type vessels and will be subject to a limit of $14 million. For the year 1971-72, the subsidy required and entered in the budget will be for two ships and will cost $6,030,000. Subsequent subsidies will fall very rapidly per ship in accordance with the learning curve of our workers.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, as I understand from the Minister's reply, this is going to be a joint venture with a Japanese shipyard. It seems that the principle of a subsidy, or a lump sum grant to any industry, is well taken provided that the learning process has to be established and the technological capability has yet to be learnt. In other words, the people are totally new to the entire process. But here I gather we have a joint project with well-known shipbuilders. So I am wondering about the economics of the issue and whether they really deserve such a big subsidy - $14 million for 15 ships, if I understood the Minister correctly, which amounts to a great deal even on a per ship basis.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, the shipyard, of course, is going to be run by Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries as one partner, the Jurong Shipyard as the second partner, and the Government and the Development Bank of Singapore as the third partner in equal shares. As far as the I.H.I, is concerned, there is nothing for them to learn and the subsidy is not really in relation to the I.H.I. but in relation to the training of our workers. The training, as I have explained, will be on another vote. But in this particular case, the subsidy is for the lower productivity which is the productivity not of I.H.I, workers but of the Singapore workers who are sent to Japan for training and who, on their return, will still not have the same productivity as their counterparts in Japan. So in order that we can sell ships at an internationally competitive price, the difference must be made up in some way, and this is the way in which we are providing the difference by a subsidy. Whether this is the best way of going about getting the capability is a matter of opinion. But at the time when we entered into this agreement, there did not seem to be an alternative.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, can the Minister say whether the alternative of providing a loan, albeit on softer terms than commercial loans, was considered?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: We tried to get the best terms possible and, in the end, it was found that the only way in which we could do this was by way of subsidy. Loan terms are also being provided for the ships, because these ships have to be sold. And in most cases, purchasers pay 20 per cent down and the rest of the 80 per cent would be on deferred payment terms. Again, these deferred payment terms would be on a percentage basis which is below the normal rates. But this is the practice in all countries which have shipbuilding industries.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I get a very curious feeling in my economic bones that this is a give-away. But without any firm facts, I am not able to dispute with the Minister concretely. However, can the Minister say what is the selling price per ship?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: The first two ships, I believe, were sold at US$3.2 million, which is roughly $10 million.

Dr Augustine Tan: I thank the Minister for his reply and I do not think it would be fair for me not to withdraw my amendment. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $163,208,290 for Head 1301 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1303 -

Dr Augustine H. H. Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2161.

Sir, this subhead is in respect of the Labour Research Unit which I presume is the N.T.U.C. Labour Research Unit. I just want to find out why there is a big increase of more than $200,000.

The Minister of State for Labour (Mr Sia Kah Hui): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Whampoa is quite right that this subhead refers to the Labour Research Unit of the N.T.U.C. In the 1970-71 fiscal year, the provision was for $320,000, but the actual expenditure in that year came to $464,824, the $144,824 being savings from the previous fiscal year. The provision for 1971-72 is $553,960 and there is really an increase of $89,136. The main reasons for the increase were the setting up of a Chinese Section in the Labour Research Unit and the recruiting of six officers for that section; the setting up lately of the leadership training courses; and the purchase of office equipment and training aids and so on.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I am wondering whether this vote is meant more as a subsidy to the labour movement, or whether it is intended to provide the Labour Research Unit with real research capability. If this is so, may I know from the Minister of State what are the actual attempts being made in this direction?

Mr Sia Kah Hui: Sir, this is an effort by the Government to assist the N.T.U.C, so that it can help its affiliated unions in the various fields of industrial relations. In order that the trade unions can stand up to the employers who can afford to engage experts at the negotiating table, so also must the unions be assisted with expert advice and assistance. Hence the Labour Research Unit was set up.

Dr Augustine Tan: I fully applaud the idea. But I am just wondering whether there are attempts to recruit people on a permanent basis, train them up so that they can engage full-time on a career basis.

Mr Sia Kah Hui: Yes, that will be the objective all the time.

Dr Augustine Tan: I thank the Minister of State and beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2244.

Sir, will the Minister concerned enlighten me on the amount estimated for the Economic Research Centre? Can he also explain how the expenditure will be used in the Research Centre?

The Minister of State for Education (Dr Lee Chiaw Meng): Mr Speaker, Sir, I believe the sum of $227,700 will be used to meet the local cost for the Economic Research Centre which is being established with financial assistance from the Ford Foundation.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Local cost for what?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: For supporting staff and local expenditure which does not involve foreign exchange components.

3.45 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not quite understand the explanation of the Minister of State for Education. Is this provision of $227,700 for the cost of furniture or for other things?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Sir, actually this provision is to meet the local cost of the expenditure which is to be spent by the Economic Research Centre. The money is not only for buying equipment but also for paying the salaries of the local staff. Only the expenditure on foreign exchange components is met by the Ford Foundation.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I do not think we need this money unless there is expenditure involved. As the Minister of State has explained how the money is to be spent, I beg leave to withdraw.

The Chairman: So you now understand the explanation of the Minister of State. It does not bother you any more, Mr Govindaswamy?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes, I understand his explanation.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2283.

Since its inception in 1960 the People's Association has been actively engaged in the promotion of recreational activities for our people and in youth and mass organisation work. It is also responsible for the promotion of multi-racial understanding and communication between the people and the Government. We should give credit to what it has done. But, unfortunately, recently the senior staff in charge of the People's Association have been running the Association in such a way that it has resulted in a lot of heart-burning among the other staff. There are several points I wish to bring up now, because the staff dare not speak up.

Firstly, it is in relation to the transfer of staff. I have been given to understand that recently the supervisors of community centres at the headquarters of the People's Association, who are very old and experienced staff, have been demoted because they do not know English, and have been sent to take up the post of Organising Secretaries in the various community centres. I do not understand why the officers-in-charge of the People's Association still harbour the colonial thinking that the English language is supreme. We know that these old staff of the People's Association have made a lot of sacrifices for the Association. Their loyal contributions have been very great indeed, in spite of their deficiency in the English language. But, instead of getting promotion and recognition, they have been demoted to the post of Organising Secretaries in the various community centres. I do not object to the requirements of bilingualism, but as far as I know, the senior administrative staff at the People's Association are mostly monolingual. Most of them know English but not Chinese. How is it that these people are not demoted? There should be a fixed principle and criterion to go by.

The second point relates to the lack of understanding between the administrative staff and the people. The People's Association has contributed much to our political and economic stability. As we know, in the past the administrative staff in the People's Association went to the masses to find out the feelings of the people, and to come into contact with the community leaders at grass-root level. At present, perhaps because of reorganisation in the People's Association or because they have no time, a lot of administrative staff do not go down to the grass-root level, to the community centres, or to the constituencies in order to understand the actual conditions for policy administration. For example, in my constituency, when recommendations were made for membership of the Women's Sub-Committee of the Management Committee, these administrative staff, who enjoy working in air-conditioned rooms, did not understand the actual problems involved and so they rejected the recommendations. Instead they recommended somebody else who was about three miles away from my constituency as a member of the Women's Section of my Management Committee. I do not understand the theory and thinking behind this kind of recommendation. I think this is rather unrealistic and inapplicable to the community work in the area. I wonder whether such a way of thinking will make any contribution to our local community work. I am not blaming anybody in particular or the authorities concerned. What I want them to do is to try to understand the local conditions of each constituency before they make any decision. They should at least go and get the views of the M.P. concerned before they come to any final decision.

The third point is in relation to the training of Assistant Organising Secretaries. Over the past 10 years the People's Association has achieved a lot of success. All this is attributable to the contributions from the staff, including the Assistant Organising Secretaries. But after the reorganisation we understand that these serving Organising Secretaries have been forced to go for further training in the National Youth Training Institute. Some of them are already quite old and they have been asked to participate in rigorous training in various fields and subjects. In the case of women officers, they face a rather difficult situation. Actually they already have enough experience in organisation and they understand the people. Over-enthusiasm in rigorous training is unnecessary. If, in the opinion of the People's Association, all the officers must be qualified as well as rugged, then training and selection should be undertaken before recruitment and final confirmation. Otherwise, if experienced old staff who have served for ten years have to go for training, perhaps the Minister will consider starting such training for all, from the Director himself down to the gardener below. Then you can say it is equal treatment; otherwise those new senior staff will just sit down and enjoy the ease and peace obtained and fought for by the older staff. Instead of thanking and promoting these old staff for their achievements, they are demoting and forcing them to go for another course of training for the purpose of reorganisation.

The points that I have raised are, in my view, worthy of consideration by the Minister, and I hope he will give a satisfactory answer.

The Minister for Culture (Mr Jek Yeun Thong): Mr Speaker, Sir, it is not true to say that Inspectors in the People's Association are removed from their posts or demoted because of their deficiency in English. In fact, as far as I know, there was at least one person among those who were so transferred who came from an English School. The posts of Inspectors in the People's Association are not in the promotional grade. They are held by promising Organising Secretaries on trial with a view to assessing their suitability for promotion to the next higher grade of Assistant Supervisors. The duties of an Inspector involve the supervision of a number of community centres, giving guidance to the central staff, and representing the Director at Management Committee meetings. The posts themselves carry no increment except that the Inspectors are all paid each an allowance of $30 a month for discharging duties more onerous than those of the Organising Secretaries. There are instances where Organising Secretaries who have performed their duties satisfactorily in the centres have failed to live up to expectations in their new posting in the Inspectorate. As a result, communication breaks down between the Association's headquarters and the Management Committees. The transfer of the staff in question back to the community centre is a necessary step in the reorganisation of the People's Association's headquarters to ensure that its administrative machinery will not be bogged down. It is appreciated that the staff concerned have given many years of loyal service to the People's Association, but it is also imperative to make sure that promotion is based on merit rather than seniority, and that the ambition of the young and intelligent workers is not frustrated.

The Member for Paya Lebar may be further informed that the persons concerned have suffered no loss in salary as a result of the transfer. A few have already been actually working in the People's Association's headquarters since 1969, doing clerical work since they were found not suitable for their duties in the Inspectorate.

As to the appointment of members in the Women's Sub-Committee, the appointment of such members is governed by the rules of that Sub-Committee. One of the rules is that the persons appointed must either live or work in the constituency in which the community centre is situated. In the specific case mentioned by the Member, I was given to understand that the person recommended by him was found to be neither living nor working in the constituency. She was therefore not accepted. Subsequently a request was received by the People's Association from a volunteer worker to serve in the Women's Sub-Committee of one of our community centres. As she was working in the Paya Lebar constituency, she was therefore recommended to the Member for Paya Lebar for consideration, but unfortunately she was not accepted.

4.00 p.m.

However, Members need not bother about this now because the rules of the Women's Sub-Committee have been amended since last September to allow for more flexibility in the appointment of members to the Committee. So long as the Member of Parliament for that constituency is satisfied that the person is useful for that particular area, she will be appointed to the Women's Sub-Committee regardless of whether or not she is residing or working in that area.

May I also add that not all of the staff in the People's Association are working in air-conditioned offices; only one or two of the more senior staff have this facility.

As to the question of sending the Assistant Organisers for training in the National Youth Leadership Training Institute, I would say that this is the proper thing to do in order to widen the scope of their perception so that they can perform their work better in the community centres. No doubt those whom we have sent are rather old, but not all of them are old. Many of them are actually under the age of 40 years. I can assure the Member that the course in this Institute is not so strenuous as to break them. The purpose is to see that they are given proper training so that they can do their work well. There is a Chinese saying Huo tao lao hsueh tao lao, which means "as long as we live, we must take the opportunity to learn." So these Assistant Organisers are sent to the Institute for training. So what! Do you think they cannot stand the rigours of the training? I can still remember that three years ago I myself went through certain training in the Army. I did not find it too bad, although at times it was quite strenuous. I thought it was a very good idea. In fact, I regretted that this training was instituted at such a late stage. That is because there were not enough vacancies in the Institute. But since we have already trained almost every Organising Secretary in the People's Association, we therefore extend the training to Assistant Organisers.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to supplement what I have said and to raise a few more questions. I do not object to what the Minister's contention is, that we must learn as long as we live. But we must learn what is useful. lf we learn something which is useless, it is not worth learning at all.

The next point I wish to stress is the fact that most of the Organising Secretaries are females. Of course, biologically they are quite different from our Minister. If, after they have given birth several times, they are made to run for a few miles, it is very troublesome for them.

The next matter I wish to raise with the Minister is this. He has said that those people who were demoted have not lost anything by way of salary. My point is, if anybody has made a mistake, then he deserves to be demoted. But I know at least two persons, and a few others who were affected but who have not complained to me, that although they were appointed as Inspectors, they have been sent to the community centres as Organising Secretaries. So morally it is wrong to put them in cold storage by demoting them.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, I do not think the Assistant Organising Secretaries are sent to the Institute to learn something which is not relevant to their work. The training in the Institute is quite relevant to their work.

As for sending female workers to the Institute, I do not see why there should be any discrimination as to the sex. I do not want to mention anything about the female sex, but I think they are able to take the training given to them in the Institute. As I have already said, the inspector grade is not a promotional grade, but a transitional step. They are put there on trial to see whether they can be promoted to the next higher grade. If they are found not suitable, they are posted back to their original grade. They cannot stay in the posts of Inspectors forever, because these are not posts for them to fill. This is just a scheme to assess their ability and to see whether they can be promoted. There is no question of sending them to places where nobody wants to go. The community centre is far from being such a place. It is, in fact, a very lively place.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to ask the Minister if he will exempt the old female Assistant Organising Secretaries from the very difficult physical training that they have to undergo.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: I think most of them, whether male of female, are sent there for training under the age of 40. I have no idea what sort of training they are giving to the Assistant Organising Secretaries, but I am quite sure that it is such that almost everyone, regardless of sex, can take it.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok (Delta): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Culture has explained just now that we must learn as long as we live. I agree with him. But once you are past 30 years of age, particularly in the case of women, and are sent to the youth training centre, it is quite a different story. Women who have passed the age of 30 are no longer regarded as young. Perhaps the word "young" should be deleted and the term "middle age training" should be substituted.

The next point I wish to raise for clarification is this. The Minister has said a few moments ago that the rules governing the Women's Sub-Committee have been made flexible by amendments. I agree. What about the Management Committee regulations? Are there any amendments to be made or have they already been made, so that those who are not living or working in the constituencies are also allowed to become members?

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, the question of whether a woman can be considered young when she is past 30 years is arguable. I am already 40 years old and I do not know whether I should be considered young or middle aged. I should say that most of our Assistant Organising Secretaries are not so old, and, therefore, they can be sent to the Youth Training Centre without any disqualification.

As for the rules of the Women's Sub-Committee, I have already said that they were amended last September to suit the requirements of the place, that is to say, regardless of whether a person is living or working in that area, so long as she has the recommendation of the Member of Parliament in that area, she will be appointed.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: (In Mandarin): Point of clarification, Sir, I know about the amendments to the rules of the Women's Sub-Committee. But I want to find out whether there are similar amendments to be made to the Management Committee.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: I beg the Member's pardon. We have not found it necessary so far to do that. But if it is considered necessary, we will proceed. But I do not see why this has to be done, because if a person is civic-minded and he wants to serve in one of our community centres, there is no reason why he cannot serve in the community centre nearest to his place of work or residence. But if in a specific case where the Member of Parliament in that constituency thinks that a certain person is indispensable, whether or not he is working or living in that area, he will be considered and accepted.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister told us that the Inspectors were on trial. But, as far as I know, two inspectors have been demoted after they have served in that capacity since 1962. So the trial period cannot be more than eight years. It is even more curious to note that this demotion has taken place after the reorganisation. So you just cannot put a person on trial for eight years and then, after reorganisation, and after the English-educated senior staff have taken over, say that he has been put on trial and it has been found that he is not suitable. This is rather difficult to explain. If the Minister can clarify, I will be prepared to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, I have already said that the Inspectorate is not a grade. It is a transitional step, a place where people are put on trial. If they are not suitable for promotion to a higher grade, they either remain there or they have to be sent back to their original post. Some of them may have been there since 1963, but the reason why they were posted there and have remained there since then is that they have been found to be not suitable for promotion. Otherwise they would have been promoted. They cannot be there forever because they have to make way for others to be sent there on trial.

The Chairman: Do you wish to withdraw your amendment, Mr Tay?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): I wish to clarify this point, Sir. If these people are not suitable for promotion, is it because they do not know English and because they do not know how to write their reports in English?

4.15 p.m.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: I have already said that there is at least one of them who came from an English school. The reason why they are not considered suitable for promotion is not that they cannot write or speak English, but simply that they cannot perform their work well.

The Chairman: I understand the Member for Paya Lebar wants to withdraw his amendment after this?

Mr Tay Boon Too: Yes.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. -

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2305.

Sir, this subhead of expenditure relates to the Singapore Anti-Tuberculosis Association. I would like to know why the provision under this subhead has been decreased by half.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, we have allocated $80,000 for the Singapore Anti-Tuberculosis Association for the ensuing fiscal year, although it spent only $65,000 last year. We therefore consider that the sum of $80,000 for the next financial year to be adequate. The standard of medical health in Singapore has improved. We give credit to the Singapore Anti-Tuberculosis Association for their work. We do not require a bigger sum than $80,000.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I thought the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs knew how to speak English too.

Sir, I have noticed earlier that there is also a decrease in the allowance for tuberculosis patients. May I ask why we do not think in terms of improving the quality of our services? For example, we should give more aid to each person rather than allow the Finance Ministry to cut down the expenditure and keep the per capita expenditure constant.

The Chairman: Is the Member dwelling on the Singapore Anti-Tuberculosis Association?

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, this is related to S.A.T.A.

The Chairman: When the Member has moved an amendment to one particular subhead, he should stick to it.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, we know that the Member for Whampoa is a specialist. He should know very clearly that if there is no tuberculosis patient, there is no need to allocate any money. We know that the number of T.B. patients is decreasing every year, and a large sum of money from the Ministry of Finance does not serve any purpose. This is quite obvious and natural.

Dr Augustine H. H. Tan: The Parliamentary Secretary has entirely missed the point. All I was saying was this. The number of T.B, patients has decreased. Why cannot we think in terms of improving the quality of the services, that is, spending more on each patient rather than keeping the per patient expenditure constant?

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not sure what the economic expert is thinking. Is he thinking that if people are sick and we give them more money, they will recover quicker? A patient in S.A.T.A. receives $30 each month by way of assistance. According to the opinion of the Member for Whampoa, this is not sufficient. If he has other opinions to express on how to improve the condition of the patients, he is at liberty to do so.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, since the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs is so arrogant, I refuse to withdraw.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture (Mr Fong Sip Chee): Sir, I only wish to make an observation on the comments by the Member for Whampoa which were most unfortunate. I wonder if he will consider withdrawing the remarks which he made earlier in this House when he said that he thought that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs knew how to speak English. I am sure that Members who have been in this House for several years have no doubt about my colleague's proficiency in the English language. I hope the Member for Whampoa realises that we are allowed to use four languages in this House. If he should make a speech the next time, I look forward to listening to it in Mandarin.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I hope I can expect some courtesy in this House.

The Chairman: If the Member shows discourtesy to other Members, he will get it back.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): I am not saying that the attitude of the Member for Whampoa is not right. He thinks that everyone should talk English. I am not prepared to quarrel with him. Even if the Member speaks in English, I can understand him quite well. I am not really concerned whether he speaks in English or in Mandarin.

Dr Augustine Tan: The Parliamentary Secretary is getting on to the question of languages.

The Chairman: The Member for Whampoa started it.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2312.

This subhead is in connection with voluntary institutions for children. Sir, I would like to know why there is a decrease in the provision under this subhead.

The Minister for Social Affairs (Inche Othman Bin Wok): Mr Speaker, Sir, this is really simple economics! The provision -

Dr Augustine Tan: Objection, Sir, that is not economics.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: The Ministry did request a standstill provision of $200,000 for the ensuing financial year. Unfortunately, the Ministry of Finance made a provision of only $170,000. However, at the same time, it indicated that if the vote proved insufficient during the course of the financial year, a virement would be considered.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not sure whether or not this is a case of passing the buck again. Why cannot the Minister insist on the provision which he wants? Sir, as far as I am concerned, this is a very serious matter. At a time when our economy is doing so well, surely one can improve the quality of our services, especially for children. At a time when we are not only enjoying economic progress but also, with increasing urbanisation, an increase in the population growth, there must be more and more children in need of help. Their diet can certainly be improved. The kind of services rendered and the care rendered for these children can also be improved.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Sir, we did insist on the original provision, but if the Ministry of Finance said that that was the amount that they could give, there was nothing else that I could do. However, they did indicate that should there be insufficient funds, we could ask for more.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, as a matter of principle we can point out that we are spending millions of dollars on economic development. We have just voted $6 million as a subsidy to a shipbuilding firm; we have built the Jurong Bird Park costing $4.5 million, and its admission charges are so high that the poor people cannot get in. I am wondering if socialism in Singapore is strictly for the birds!

Inche Othman Bin Wok: It is not so, Sir. I have said that the $200,000 which was spent last year would be enough for the financial year 1971-72. I have stressed that if there are insufficient funds, we will ask for a virement. This argument can go on forever, Sir.

Dr Augustine Tan: As long as the Minister has indicated that he will ask for more money, and I hope he will ask for more and that it will be double the amount, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2316.

Sir, my intention in moving this amendment is to urge the Minister to have a permanent Grand Prix circuit for the republic. The Minister has answered my question by his statement in today's Straits Times before I can even speak in this House. Sir, after a long wait for more than ten years, I am happy to note that we are going to have a permanent Grand Prix circuit. This, of course, will make the Member for Nee Soon happy, because the Urban and Rural Services Committee can put in more street lamps, thus lighting up the place.

I would also like the Minister to elaborate on this subject further by saying where, when and how we are going to have this Grand Prix circuit.

Inche Othman Bin Wok: Sir, a special committee, comprising representatives from the Motor Sports Club and Government Ministries and departments concerned, was set up some time ago to look into the matter. This committee has considered various alternative requirements and sites, and a comprehensive and commendable report was submitted to the Government. The proposal is to establish in a scenic and good location away from residential areas a multi-purpose circuit which can be fully utilised. It will also serve as a social amenity and tourist attraction. The acceptance of the recommendation, which must at this stage be confidential, will depend on land availability, finance and the utility and viability of the circuit. I appreciate very much the concern of the Member about the lack of a permanent Grand Prix circuit, and I would like to assure him that my Ministry will do all that is possible to bring one about as soon as possible.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, in view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2406.

Sir, I just wish to seek clarification on why there is a decrease of $1 million under this subhead.

The Minister of State for Finance (Mr Tang See Chim): Mr Speaker, Sir, this provision is part of the total cost of a crash programme to develop the skills required for the shipbuilding industry. Some two years ago, the Ministry of Finance initiated a crash programme to train 250 workers initially in Japanese shipyards.

4.30 p.m.

This was in addition to the programmes undertaken by the Technical Education Department of the Ministry of Education and the provision available under the Public Service Commission for training of workers abroad. The total cost of this crash programme was estimated to be in the region of $2� million, and this was to cover expenditure over a period of two to three years. The training programme was started in 1969, and accordingly 250 workers were sent to Japan for training with training periods of from 12 to 18 months. A sum of $500,000 was spent in 1969 and $l� million in 1970. The training programme is now coming to an end and the expenditure for the current year is estimated to be $500,000. Hence the provision.

It is important to mention that with this nucleus of trained skilled workers in Singapore shipyards, it will be possible now to undertake this training in Singapore with a saving of foreign exchange costs. It is also the intention of the Government to send a further batch of some 250 workers to Japan for upgrading training in the year 1972-73. It is hoped, however, that the cost of this training could be defrayed from technical assistance from the Japanese Government as well as Japanese industries.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I am glad to note the progress of this particular training scheme. I thank the Minister of State for Finance for his reply and beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $26,949,120 for Head 1303 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1305 -

Mr S. Ramaswamy (Potong Pasir): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1305 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Sir, I wish to speak about the corrupt practices by some of the customs officials at the Woodlands customs checkpoint. Most of the officers who check the baggages of passengers coming into Singapore from the Johore causeway are honest, but there are a few who are corrupt.

Once when I was coming from Johore Bahru, I saw three passengers in a taxi coming from Johore Bahru and they had big baggages in the boot of the taxi. They were allowed to pass through the customs check-point without their bag- gages being checked. When I reached home, I asked one of the passengers, who is a friend, how he managed to pass the check-point without his baggage being checked. He told me that the passengers in the taxi each paid a few dollars to the taxi driver to give to the customs officials to let them pass through without their baggages being checked. The driver, after receiving the money, did get through the customs without the baggages being checked. I was following this taxi, but I did not see the taxi driver handing the money to the customs officials and the informant did not see it either. But I am reliably told that there are signs and signals between taxi drivers and the officials who man the customs post, and the officials are told to collect the money from the drivers later on to avoid the risk of being caught.

The Minister of State for Finance may ask why I did not make a report there and then. I could not do so because I did not have sufficient evidence to prove corruption or allege anything.

Mr Tang See Chim: You can make the report now.

Mr Ramaswamy: Only after I came home, I was told by my friend that he paid a few dollars to the taxi driver in order to pass the customs check-point without his baggage being checked.

An hon. Member: Maybe the taxi driver pocketed the money!

Mr Ramaswamy: It may be so, but it is also true that there are signals between the taxi drivers and the customs officials. By and large, our administration is known to the whole world as honest and incorruptible. But a few black sheep in the lower ranks here and there may spoil our good name.

I just want to bring this incident to the notice of the House so that the Ministry of Finance will take steps to stop corrupt practices and keep up our good name.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Government, of course, is always very jealous of its good name and of the incorruptibility not only of its top political leadership but also of all Government civil servants. I should have thought that the Member should have known better, and after inquiring from his friend and what he saw, he should have reported the incident to the police or the Customs Department or the Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau. An investigation could then be conducted straightaway so that any guilty person could be appropriately punished. But coming before Parliament to make such an allegation now makes it a bit difficult for us to do anything. However, if the Member will even at this late stage supply me with the information, I shall be pleased to cause an investigation to be conducted.

Generally, Sir, the Customs Department has been taking all possible steps to prevent corruption. Since last year, senior officers have been assigned round the clock to exercise on-the-spot supervision at the Woodlands customs complex. Junior customs staff are required to declare the amount of money they have with them when reporting for duty and when they go off duty. Surprise checks on customs officers are made from time to time. This is not to say that corruption is rampant. In fact, there has been no case reported for the last 12 months. The last known case was on the 28th of February, 1970, when a probationary customs officer was caught accepting a bribe of $20 and his services were terminated.

Sir, circulars were also handed to transport operators warning them not to bribe customs officers. Customs officers were also instructed to arrest transport operators, drivers and attendants who attempt to offer them illegal gratification.

In addition, Sir, close liaison is also maintained with the C.P.I.B.

Mr Ramaswamy: Sir, I am glad that the Ministry is taking steps to stop this practice. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $7,430,050 for Head 1305 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1306 -

Mr S. Ramaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1306 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

Sir, the Property Tax Division comes under the Inland Revenue Department. In the newly developed as well as old housing estates, the annual value of properties has been increased by 100, 150 and even 200 per cent during the last two years. Some of the houses are owner-occupied and some are let out. Property tax for owner-occupied houses becomes higher when the annual value goes up. The Property Tax Division gives a concession to owner occupiers, but there is no guarantee that the property tax will remain the same. The Property Tax Division can withdraw this concession at any time and can charge the property tax of 36 per cent on the increased annual value.

For rented houses, the landlords pass the increases on to the tenants and the tenants suffer. In most cases in Sennett Estate, the rent has been increased by 100 to 200 per cent. Can the Property Tax Division value properties at some reasonable figure? It seems that its valuers value the properties at any rate they like. In the same estate, some houses are valued at a higher rate and some at a lower rate. I have known instances where, although the properties are in the same area with the same floor space and the same type of building, the values differ. The annual value of one property is $2,000, but about three houses away, the same type of property is valued at $6,000 or $7,000. I notice that the Minister of State for Finance is shaking his head and saying that it is not true. But I can produce the annual value notices to him.

Sir, another point that I want to bring to the notice of the House is that, although a certain property is assessed at a certain value by the valuers in the Property Tax Division, the same property is valued, for the purposes of land acquisition, at half the rate or sometimes even lower than that. It seems the Government has double standards. When it wants to acquire property, it wants to pay less for it. When it wants to collect property tax, it values the property at a higher rate.

Will the Minister of State for Finance look into these matters?

4.45 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I have only one point to make regarding property tax. Formerly the annual value of my estate was $900. Now it has increased to $2,500. How many hundred per cent increase is that?

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy, what do you mean when you say your "estate"? Do you mean a few hundred acres?

An hon. Member: He is another rich man!

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am very sorry. When I say "estate", I mean the Windsor Park Estate. The Property Tax Division has increased the valuation of the houses in that estate. I think the Minister of State wants more money and therefore the property tax is increased. I hope to get a reasonable reply from him.:

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, the general principle of valuation is fairly simple. The annual value of a house is the value of the rental that it can fetch in the open market. Of course, in time the annual values of houses go out of date. Therefore, a revaluation is done so that the property accurately reflects the rental that it can fetch. This is the general principle. In particular cases, like those quoted by the Members for Potong Pasir and Anson, it simply means that the rentals that these properties can fetch have gone up. Let me take the case quoted by the Member for Anson. He says that the annual valuation of his house was raised from $900 to $2,500. But let me also ask him this question: If he were to let out his house now, would he not get more than $200 a month for it? If the answer is yes, the annual value of his house will have to be raised so that it will accurately reflect that rental. I do, of course, realise that there has been a big increase in rentals. However, for owner-occupiers, there is a special concession, and they will not be asked to pay more than what they previously paid. I am sure this can be confirmed by both the Member for Anson and the Member for Potong Pasir who had some experience in my Ministry regarding this matter. I am in sympathy with them.

In my own case, for example, the annual value of my house was originally only $1,320, and now it is raised to $4,200. I cannot complain about this really, because the house in which I am staying could fetch up to $600 a month with furniture thrown in. But I do not pay anything more. I still pay my old property tax because of this special concession. There is, therefore, no hardship for owner-occupiers. However, I was told by the Member for Potong Pasir that it would be a hardship for tenants because the landlords pass the property tax element on to them. I think the Member for Potong Pasir has forgotten the cause and effect of the matter. The higher valuation is only the effect of the increased rental. Even if we were not to raise the annual value of the property, the tenant would still have to pay the higher rent. In fact, what we do is to take away from the landlords in the form of property tax part of that higher rent so that they would not get the whole lot of the increased rental.

Let me quote an example. If a house has been valued at $2,000 and is let out at $500 a month, the proper annual value should be $6,000. If the Government does not increase the annual value of the house, the owner will still collect the $6,000 but he will keep the difference between $6,000 and $2,000 to himself. Because the Government has now increased the annual value of the house to $6,000, it is able to collect tax on the higher rental. Therefore, there should be no hardship either for the tenant or the owner-occupier. So the landlords themselves, who have properties to let out, will get less return than they would otherwise, but this is property tax and when landlords let out their property, they are expected to pay property tax.

Mr Ramaswamy: Sir, can the Minister of State guarantee that the concession granted to owner-occupiers will not be withdrawn? He has said that owner-occupier house-owners need not pay more tax, but this is only just eyewash. At any time the Property Tax Division can demand the full rate by withdrawing the concession.

The Minister of State has also said that the Property Tax Division has raised the annual value of properties because the landlords have collected increased rents. But the landlord did not raise the rents of the houses in Sennett Estate, which were built in 1952, until the Property Tax Division raised their annual value. Can the Minister tell us whether this concessionary rate will remain forever?

The Chairman: Mr Tang, can you guarantee that this concessionary rate will remain forever?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it would be foolhardy of me if I were to give Members of the House that guarantee. What I can say is that so long as the economy is buoyant and the growth rate is satisfactory, and there are other sources of raising revenue, we shall do our best to see that owner-occupiers get this concession. I think it is up to everybody in this country to work hard to ensure that the economic growth of our country is at a rapid rate so that we do not have to withdraw the concession.

As to the Member's second point, he says that the rent of the houses in Sennett Estate, which is in his constituency, was not raised until the Property Tax Division raised their annual value. I wonder whether this can be true. The law, however, clearly states that the annual value must accurately reflect the rental of the property that can be fetched in the open market. If, for example, a house could be let out at $400 a month, I do not see why a house-owner should let it out at $100 unless he rents it to his own relative or to some other dependants. To that extent it is unfair to the Revenue. So the Government comes in and says, `Look, the market value is $400. Why do you let it out at $100? You must furnish a satisfactory answer. Otherwise the annual value of the house will go up." I do not really see how in the same row of houses the annual value is $2,000 for one house and $6,000 for another, as was earlier quoted by the Member. In that case I would ask him to supply me with the information and I will definitely look into the matter. Perhaps the lower annual value will go up by $4,000!

Mr Ramaswamy: Sir, I will certainly supply the information concerning the disparity in the annual values of the two houses to the Minister of State.

He is not well informed about the landlord passing the increase in the annual value to the tenants in Sennett Estate. I remember I wrote to him about 14 months ago on this matter. He might have forgotten about it. I shall give him the facts again. I want an answer from him about the double standard of annual values set by the Government.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, land acquisition is not properly within my Ministry's portfolio and I think it would be rather presumptuous for me to say anything. I would, however, point out that annual values are put into a yearly Valuation List. If a house is acquired, I think the owner would be on very firm ground in asking for compensation according to the annual value as it appears in the Valuation List. That is all I can say.

Mr Ramaswamy: Though I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister of State, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I propose to take the suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 5.30 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.00 p.m, until 5.30 p.m Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 1306 (contd.) -

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1306 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1191.

Sir, many of our citizens are not happy about having to pay compounded fines for late renewal of their Radio and T.V. licences. Late payment of renewals is often due to an oversight. Sometimes notices of renewal might have gone astray in the post or might have failed to reach the licensees. Very few licensees, I believe, have deliberately tried to evade or to ignore payment. In any case, the amount of a licence fee is not large, only $36 per annum and it can be recovered throughout the duration of the whole year. Moreover, the Radio and TV. Licensing Section is not understaffed. Notices of reminders should be sent out to licensees to remind them to pay up.

In this connection, Sir, I would like to suggest that, in place of compounded fines, a late fee of $2 be charged for late payment of renewal fees. The Property Tax Division also charges late fees for late payments. If this proposal is accepted, there will be no unpleasantness caused by bringing the offenders to court and fining them simply because they are reluctant to pay the compounded fine offered by the Radio and T.V. Licensing Section. Moreover, we do not want the public to accuse us of being too harsh to them just because they refuse to pay $10 to compound the offence.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, under the present system of renewal of T.V. and Radio licences, a combined licence and renewal form is issued to each and every licensee one month before the date of expiry of his licence. This gives the licensee ample time in advance to renew his licence, as it can be renewed one month before the expiry date. Where a licensee has a good reason for failing to renew his licence in time, the composition can be waived. The payment of a sum of $10 to compound the offence of late renewal is, therefore, not too harsh since the licensee has been reminded in ample time.

The suggestion by the Member that the sum of the composition be reduced to $2 is, I am afraid, unacceptable because it would lose its deterrent effect. The non-receipt of a renewal form is mainly due to the failure of the licensee to report his change of address to the department. Since the licence form clearly states that the licensee must report any change of address to the department, the non-receipt of a renewal form by reason of a change of address cannot be accepted as an excuse for late renewal.

In 1970 the total number of licences renewed was 190,788, and the number of cases compounded was 6,408, i.e., only three per cent. If 97 per cent of the licensees could manage to renew in time, it is clear that the three per cent had only themselves to blame for failure to renew in time, for which they suffered the penalty of the composition. If they paid the composition, they would not be brought to court. Of course, if they chose not to pay, then court proceedings would follow.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: In view of the answer, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1306 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2063.

You will notice that the vote for Advertising Charges under the Property Tax Division has been increased by $13,240 over the previous year. Is this not because of the tremendous increase of house property tax as mentioned by the Member for Potong Pasir and the Member for Anson, and is it not also because of the increased cost of living that the department has to tell the people, through advertisements either in the newspapers or on T.V., that they have to pay their property tax?

Sir, the Ministry has the machinery to send out notices of assessment of property tax to each and every house owner. Therefore, why is it necessary for the Ministry to spend such a large sum of money on advertisement charges?

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, the provision in this subhead is for the purpose of meeting expenditure for advertising in the press and over radio and on T.V. in January, February, July and August of each year to remind property owners to pay their property tax promptly. It is true that the Property Tax Division sends out notices of assessment and that these advertisements are not really essential. However, it is considered desirable to have these reminders as an additional service to taxpayers to make it quite sure that they do not overlook having to pay in time to reduce the number of late payments, so that they need not have to pay a late payment fee.

The sum of $1,500 shown in the 1970-71 estimates was provided to meet advertising charges in the press only. Up to July 1969 advertising over radio and on T.V. by Government departments was free. In preparing the estimates for 1970-71 the Property Tax Division overlooked the fact that they had to make provision to meet advertising charges over radio and on T.V., although such advertising charges had been in force with effect from 1st August, 1969. This subhead, therefore, had to be supplemented in the course of the year by a virement of $13,240, making a total of $14,740 for that year. Hence a similar provision is made for the ensuing financial year.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, can the Minister of State inform us of the result of putting these advertisements over radio and on television? Is it good?

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, it is satisfactory.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: I am not satisfied with the reply, and I will not withdraw my amendment.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The sum of $5,944,360 for Head 1306 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1401 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker,

Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The amendment also stood in the names of Messrs. N. Govindasamy and Ng Yeow Chong)

Sir, the Ministry of Home Affairs is a new Ministry. It plays quite an important role in the Government. Under this amendment, I would like to bring up two questions. The first is in regard to the way in which police personnel carry out their duties. The second is in regard to the arrogance shown by the police telephone operators in Police headquarters. In the last few years our Government has tried its best to promote co-operation between the police and the people in order to eradicate the image of the police being bullies and oppressors of the people. Now that we are an independent and sovereign republic, the police should be the friends of the people, and the protector of life and property. Therefore, it follows that they must adopt a proper attitude in performing their services to the people.

However, I have received complaints from certain people. Let me quote an example. There was a hawker in my constituency who, because he was willing to devote some of his time to community centre work, was nominated to be the secretary of the Management Committee of the community centre. At the same time, he was also a committee member of the Citizens' Consultative Committee. Naturally he is a law-abiding citizen. One evening about a month ago when he was working at his stall with his two assistants, a police inspector suddenly arrived on the scene saying that he wanted to arrest his two assistants. The hawker was very surprised and asked him for the reason for the arrest. Unexpectedly the police inspector roughly said, "Do not talk too much. If you want to find out, go to the police station." So he followed the inspector to the police station to find out the reason for the arrest of his two assistants.

5.45 p.m.

On arriving at the police station the inspector asked some police constables to drive him away. The hawker was very angry then and protested against this course of action. He told the inspector not to create unnecessary trouble. It was only then that the inspector realised that he was at fault himself and released the hawker's two assistants because they were innocent. Mr Speaker, Sir, from this incident we can see that there is plenty of room for improvement in the way police personnel carry out their duties.

I would like to raise some other points. The police should at all times be courteous to members of the public. If they are rough and discourteous, they will leave an unfavourable image amongst members of the public. In time to come a feeling of antagonism will be created between the police and the people.

Another point concerns the way in which police investigations are carried out. These investigations are not thorough. The police are often careless and sometimes arrest the wrong persons. This has resulted in members of the public losing confidence in the way police personnel carry out their duties. I would urge the Minister to instruct the police force to carry out their duties properly and to assist our people in solving their problems and not to create unnecessary trouble and worries for them.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in order to reduce the incidence of crime and to preserve law and order, we must not only improve the discipline and working efficiency of the police force, but we must also seek to obtain maximum co-operation from the people. In order to do this, our police force will have to show that they are the friends of the people. They must maintain a friendly attitude towards the people.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we do not lack people with public spirit in our society. For example, people who serve on the management committees of community centres are often public spirited. They are willing to devote their time to community work and try their best to help solve the problems of the people. They are willing to assume these duties for the benefit of the people. Therefore, the police force must adopt a co-operative attitude towards the people because only in this way can they expect to carry out their work more efficiently. I think concrete steps should be taken to improve the co-operation between the police and the people. For example, some time ago, meetings were held between the police and the people in order to break down the barrier that existed between them. I think meetings of this kind are very useful and should be held regularly. For instance, "Unity Week" organised by the police and the public will help to consolidate and strengthen the links between the police and the people. Through the unity and co-operation of the public, the police will be able to work better for the welfare and benefit of our people.

Another point relates to the telephone operators in Police headquarters. It is very difficult to put calls through at Police headquarters. Some Members raised this point last year. The Minister replied that he would investigate and take steps to improve the situation. However, after a lapse of one year, it is still very difficult to put calls through at Police headquarters. I do not know the reason for this. I hope the Minister will carry out an immediate investigation into this matter.

I have also received many complaints from people that the telephone operators in Police headquarters are arrogant and discourteous and that their working efficiency is low. Sometimes a call is unanswered for a long time. Some members of the public are wondering if the operators are "playing the fool." I hope the Minister will carry out an investigation and adopt the necessary remedial measures.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, since the Member for Sembawang has raised many points, can I wait until the Minister has replied and then I can raise my question?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is noted that the Ministry of Home Affairs was created in August 1970. This new Ministry has the Police, the Immigration Department, and the Registry of Societies under its portfolio.

Sir, our police force is one of the best disciplined and most efficient law enforcement authorities in South-east Asia. Because of the efficiency and dedication of the members of the police force, crime in the republic is not so rampant as it is in some other countries. Law and order is indeed well maintained. Therefore, our citizens enjoy living in peace and security. However, we cannot afford to have some black sheep in the police force who take the law into their own hands and bring disgrace and discredit to the force.

Sir, it is very unfortunate to have to mention that the Police Department has recently received bad publicity with regard to some members of the force who were involved in corruption, abuse of power, such as in rape cases, stealing property in the course of investigation, and committing robbery, etc, resulting in the dismissal of some officers and members of the rank and file. It would appear that all the above incidents occurred so rapidly one after another. For instance, two detectives are alleged to have removed personal articles from a house where they were assigned to investigate a case of housebreaking. A patrol crew in a radio car are alleged to have been found collecting money from lorry operators for a favour not to book them for traffic offences. As a result of this, the Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau probed into the Traffic Branch and some of the police personnel were transferred out. Again, one probationary police inspector and his staff sergeant were sentenced to imprisonment for raping a woman and a girl under threat. A detective corporal was also sentenced to imprisonment for committing robbery with his service gun.

Sir, we cannot afford to allow the acts committed by these black sheep to affect the discipline and morale of the police force as a whole. Normally, the public turn to the police for protection of their property and lives. But they will eventually lose faith and confidence if some of the officers in the police force, instead of rendering valuable assistance, take advantage of their authority to harm innocent persons, especially the females.

Sir, in order to have a clean and efficient police force, these black sheep should be weeded out without any mercy and sympathy. Singapore has achieved progress and prosperity through the hard work of all strata of society, including, of course, members of the police force. Since police personnel are part and parcel of the republic, they should work hand in hand with the people to achieve peace and security.

Mr Speaker, Sir, notwithstanding the misdemeanours of a few officers in the force, personally I have a high regard for some of our officers and members of the rank and file for their exemplary conduct and excellent performance. They have been able to adapt themselves to the change from the colonial days to meet the demands of the society of today. In order to maintain the high standard of our police force, I sincerely urge the Minister for Home Affairs to see to it that capable police officers, senior as well as junior, be given the opportunity to fill the existing vacancies in all ranks.

In addition, I would like to support what the Member for Sembawang has said about the police telephone exchange at police headquarters. Will the Minister also consider improving the system of communication by installing direct telephone lines at all divisional stations? At present all calls made to the police must be transmitted through the number 72001. I would also like to urge the Minister to look into this matter.

In conclusion, I wish to take this opportunity of asking the Minister a few questions. First, is he satisfied with the general efficiency of the police force and, if not, what steps will he take to improve their efficiency?

Second, is the present strength of the police force sufficient to maintain law and order in the republic now and in the near future?

Third, what measures are being taken by the Minister to curb the present increase in crime?

Fourth, does he deem the indulgence of some members of the police force in corrupt practices serious enough to justify some reorganisation of the force?

Fifth, when will the salary scales and conditions of service for members of the police force be revised on lines similar to those of the Singapore Armed Forces so as to attract capable and young men to join the force?

Sixth, will a school for detectives be set up in the Police Academy to train our detectives in the modern techniques of crime detection?

Mr Seah Mui Kok (Bukit Ho Swee): Mr Speaker, Sir, two days ago while I was entering the Parliament gate, the policeman on duty raised his hand towards me and, raising his voice slightly, said, "Hey, where are you going?" Being a very patient man and quite understanding, I just gave him a smile and told him that I am the Member for Bukit Ho Swee. His immediate reaction was to stand to attention. I strongly feel that police constables require some kind of courtesy course.

The Chairman: Is it courtesy to Members of Parliament?

Mr Seah Mui Kok: It should be courtesy to everybody in Singapore.

The Chairman: I see.

6.00 p.m.

Dr Chiang Hai Ding (Ulu Pandan): Mr Speaker, Sir, in Singapore we tend to take for granted the existence and the functions of the police force. Policemen have been with us for so long and, because they have discharged their duties efficiently but quietly, we have tended to ignore them, following, as it were, the principle of letting sleeping dogs lie. In contrast, the Singapore Armed Forces have been glamorous subjects, much written up by journalists and written about by parents as well as national servicemen themselves, until the latter were warned by the Minister of Defence that this practice was a breach of the Queen's Regulations. I have nothing against our Armed Forces or against glamour for that matter. I am in favour of both. But think we have been hard on our police force. For five years since we became an independent republic, the police has been sandwiched in the M.I.D, between Ministry and Defence, with the result that Interior, or Home Affairs as it is now known today, has been relegated to the background and virtually forgotten. The police force has been undermanned and underpaid; sometimes misunderstood, at other times maligned.

I am reminded of students in an agricultural college in a neighbouring country who, several years ago, complained in the press that their profession, agriculture, which is the world's second oldest profession, was taken for granted and forgotten. These students pointed out that their profession was more respectable, probably more useful in an economic if not in a social sense, than the world's oldest profession.

Sir, I think it is time that our police force got the attention and appreciation which is their due. The resurrection of the Ministry of Home Affairs is a step in the right direction. The appointment of a committee of inquiry into the terms and conditions of service of the police force is another step in the right direction. The reduction of the allocation in respect of this Ministry is not a step in the right direction. In recent months, although the police force has achieved a certain measure of notoriety as expounded by the Member for Mountbatten, it has, nevertheless, achieved other notable successes in crime detection and it is to be congratulated. Perhaps this increased productivity on the part of the force is an additional reason for an overdue salary revision. I feel safe and secure in Singapore and I believe that most of us do as well. The crooks should not. This safety and security cannot always be found in many cities of the world. I hope that we will always feel safe and secure in Singapore. But we must recognise that we will have to pay for this and, therefore. I do not support the proposed reduction in the allocation.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Mr Speaker. Sir, first let me say how much I appreciate the interest shown by the Members for Sembawang, Mountbatten, Bukit Ho Swee and Ulu Pandan in the functioning of the police force. The police force, unlike the Army, has no other policemen to look after them: to see whether they do their work or not. For this reason, I appreciate so much more the interest shown by these Members in the functioning of the force.

The Member for Ulu Pandan has indicated quite clearly that the police force has, as a whole, done an excellent job and I am quite prepared to substantiate this in figures. How can we measure the efficient performance of the police force? It may astonish Members to know that there is no such thing as a crime-free society. In fact, the only society which is crime free happens to be very primitive society, and I do not think any Member in this House wishes Singapore to move in that direction.

In the last ten years, our crime rate has been rather low, fluctuating around 10 crimes per 1,000 of the population, and it has not substantially changed. Last year there were a few cases of rather notorious crimes, like the Chartered Bank robbery, which happened to be the biggest in the history of Singapore. But Members will note that the police within a rather short time caught the criminals. In fact, last year the number of offences per thousand persons in Singapore was 9.56. This shows an increase of about 0.7 per cent over the rate in 1969.

How about the inadequacies? The Member for Mountbatten has quite rightly pointed out that the number of instances where policemen committed rape and robbery did show the police force in a bad light. However, by and large, our policemen are not like this. After all, there are good students and bad students. There are good teachers and bad teachers. There are good and bad Members of Parliament. This is in the nature of things. However, the important point is that we must take the whole picture into consideration and come to the proper perspective.

As regards the rudeness and arrogance of police officers, I myself think that such instances do occur, because I have received complaints. I have investigated and sometimes the complaints are true but sometimes they are not. If they are true, disciplinary measures are taken, although I cannot tell Members what they are. The police force is an interesting force. It has different kinds of punishment for different kinds of offences.

I am very pleased to note that the Member for Bukit Ho Swee mentioned the case of a police officer in Parliament House who did not recognise him. I will certainly take very stern measures against this police officer if the Member will just give me the specific particulars. This is very important because I will not tolerate any member of the police force not paying due courtesy to Ministers, to Members of Parliament and to members of the Citizens' Consultative Committees. For, as already pointed out by the Member for Sembawang, if the police force is to function efficiently, it must have the support of the community, and discourtesy is one factor which places the force in a bad light. Nevertheless, having said all this, it is also my duty to explain to Members that policemen are instructed to be courteous and they receive lectures on this. And judging by the number of complaints that reach me, it would seem that there have been -occasional lapses in this direction.

As regards wrongful arrests. I am not quite sure whether this sort of thing happens at all. In fact, I presume that people are called in for questioning and, after that, they are asked to go home. After all, whether a person is wrongfully arrested or not will finally be decided by the law courts.

The Member for Sembawang has suggested that the Ministry should consider having a "Police Week". In fact, I can reveal to Members that such a week will be planned this year and Members of Parliament and members of community centres and the Citizens' Consultative Committees will be asked to participate. This, I think, is very necessary to establish good relations between the police and the public.

As regards the question of difficulties of getting telephone calls through to the police, I have not looked up the debates last year and I do not know whether my predecessor did, in fact, make such a promise. But since the Member for Sembawang has said that it was promised, I presume that it is so. At the moment, we are in the process of installing a P.A.B.X. system which will be operational some time this year. We hope that when this is completed, communication will improve.

As regards rudeness on the part of the telephone operators, here again I say that it is quite possible that such instances might have occurred. But, by and large, the operators are polite. It is quite possible that there might be some linguistic difficulties in this connection. When someone speaks another language, and not too well, a person well versed in the language might interpret the inadequacy as rudeness. Members must understand that when an operator receives a phone call, he is confronted by people speaking several languages and often dialects.

The Member for Mountbatten asked me some very specific questions. Firstly, he asked whether I am satisfied with the police force. I have indicated earlier that the level of our crime rate is relatively stable and low, and perhaps that is really the best criterion of the efficiency of the police force. I think some kind of comparison will bring the state of efficiency of the Singapore Police Force into proper perspective. I have stated earlier that our crime/population ratio has been relatively stable over the last 10 years, fluctuating around 10 per one thousand people. A comparison with Hong Kong will bring the situation into perspective. Hong Kong, like Singapore, is an immigrant society with a similar social structure and crime pattern. In 1968, the last year for which Hong Kong's figures are available, in so far as the Ministry is concerned, the crime/population ratio stood at 10.33. For that year, the figure for Singapore was 10. It is interesting to compare the position of the ratios for 10 major cities in the United States, another nation of immigrants. For 1969, the ratios varied between 17.5 and 47.3 crimes per one thousand persons with Los Angeles topping the list. I hope the figures will satisfy the Member for Mountbatten with regard to the state of efficiency of our force.

As regards corruption, naturally I cannot tolerate it.

The Chairman: Your time is up, Prof. Wong. Mr N. Govindasamy.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, before I express my misgivings about the police force, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate them on the efficient manner in which they have tackled major crimes, as the Minister has mentioned just now, and in apprehending the law-breakers in the republic. We can be proud of them, as the Minister is, for effectively giving credence to the proverbial long arm of justice and thus deterring more anti-social elements from indulging in robbery, kidnapping, raping and other reprehensible crimes.

Sir, the Minister for Home Affairs has mentioned the Chartered Bank robbery case. The recovery of the money and the arrest of the criminals involved in this case, and the apprehension of the kidnappers of a millionaire recently are proof of the mettle and calibre of our police force.

6.15 p.m.

While the police force, as a whole, appears to have made a glowing impression on the public as well as the Minister himself, unfortunately the morale among the rank and file members seems to be not what it should be. What I am about to refer to may be considered as a serious reflection on the integrity and dedication of our police force, but it is a matter of vital importance that I think it should be aired in this House so that investigation may be made into it and remedial measures taken to rectify it. In the course of my constituency and trade union work, I have come across remarks made in all seriousness, by responsible citizens to the effect that even the mata mata try to make themselves scarce at the scene of traffic accidents or minor crimes. It seems that policemen also share the layman's aversion to court proceedings, and intensely dislike the amount of paper work they have to do in connection with any traffic offence or minor crime they may have witnessed. Such dislike may probably be accounted for by the fact that minor offences do not count much in relation to the promotional prospects of the officers involved. I am also told that the additional time involved in making reports, and having to go to hospital in accident cases, if done outside duty hours, cannot be taken into consideration as working hours for the purpose either of overtime pay or for taking time off. If this is so, steps must be taken to rectify this anomaly. If there is any truth in the remark that policemen avoid apprehending criminals because of the attendant cross-examination by defence counsel, then the policeman concerned should be given training in court craft. The fact that junior police officers lack confidence when it comes to court proceedings implies that there is much room for improvement in the training programme devised for them. Court craft and correct orientation to their duty should form a major part of the curricula of the Police Academy. I wonder if this is being done, There is too much compartmentalisation of our police force. Traffic officers do not seem to worry about anything else unless it is associated with traffic offences. Other officers in uniform, even those in patrol cars, pretend not to notice traffic offences. These are problems which can be eliminated by correct orientation of our police force.

Sir, I also wish to refer to another matter. Recently traffic compounded fines have been increased. This may give rise to a situation where many traffic offenders, instead of paying a compounded fine, may think it cheaper to offer bribes to the traffic police. In other words, the temptation to bribe is made greater by the increase in the compounded fines. Can this be one of the causes for the recent investigation by the Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau into corruption by our traffic police?

Mr S. Ramaswamy: Sir, I have some points to make.

The Chairman: Can you give the Minister time to reply first?

Mr Ramaswamy: Yes, Sir.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah talked about the low morale of the police force. It has been suggested that this has something to do with their salaries and conditions of work. If this is true, I think the solution can only come after the Lee Soo Ann Committee has presented its report.

With regard to the question of court attendance of police officers and their fear that they may be grilled in the court and therefore they do not perform their duty, let me first inform the Member that not all police officers are required to attend court to testify for the prosecution. They only do so when the accused person claims trial. Even if they do, it is not very often that they have to undergo severe cross-examination by defence counsel. Generally, this happens only in cases of serious crimes. With the training given to them on court procedures, there is no reason for officers or members of the rank and file to fear narrating the true facts of the case as required of them when testimony is called for. Since it is just as much their duty to testify - in court as to attend to offences committed in their presence. I do not really subscribe to the view that failure to take cognizance of the crime when it happens is attributable to their fear to testify in court.

The Member also complained that officers off duty or officers not asked to do a particular job, do not attend to offences committed in their presence. The Police Force Orders require that any police officer in such a situation should perform his duty. As I have said earlier, the police force has no other people to check any negligence on the part of its members in this matter. If anyone seriously believes that a police officer has not done his duty, he can complain in writing to the Police Commissioner and he will do the necessary investigation. However. I suspect this is really not generally true.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, may I ask just one more question? Is it true that if the police officers perform duty over and beyond their duty hours, these hours are not taken into consideration? As a result, they tend to close an eye to minor crimes, but not major ones. They are very good in major crimes.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Sir, let me put it this way. It is quite true that police officers working extra hours or beyond their duty hours do not receive extra emoluments, but due recognition is given for doing this extra work. For police constables who go beyond the usual tour of duties, normally they are compensated by a rearrangement in their subsequent tour of duty. For good work done, certificates of commendation of various grades are given to both officers and members of the rank and file. In the case of the latter, they also qualify for some form of monetary reward, depending on the grade of certificate awarded. Subsidiary awards based on the present system in regard to the rank and file members qualify them for certificates and the payment of monetary rewards on the basis of the points accumulated over a given year.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Including the rank and file members?

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: I believe this is so.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, we have just heard about the crime rate given by the Minister for Home Affairs

The Chairman: Mr Ng, will you give a chance to Mr Ramaswamy to say something?

Mr Ramaswamy: Sir, I have an amendment* to move under subhead 1151. May I speak now because what I am going to say is related to the present discussion?

• The same amendment, standing in the names of Messrs. Ramaswamy and Conceicao, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1151.

The Chairman: All right, Mr Ramaswamy.

Mr Ramaswamy: Sir, I have three points to bring to the notice of the House.

Firstly, cases of petty theft, burglary and extortion in and around my constituency, particularly in Sennett Estate. Extortion is also being carried out in the Kolam Ayer district. I have reported this matter to the Commissioner of Police but without much result. The Police Department has replied to me saying that they have taken action, but the cases of theft and extortion have not decreased in number. My constituency may not be like Toa Payoh, which my colleague refers to as the "Chicago of Singapore". The incidents in my constituency are not small in number. Will the Minister for Home Affairs overhaul the police force and take action on these incidents? I have a1so tried my best and have given some clues to the Commissioner of Police about the persons who are involved in extortion in the Kolam Ayer district.

The second point I want to raise is about corruption in the traffic police. I am told that they do take bribes from lorry and pirate taxi drivers who commit traffic offences. I notice that though some people park their cars in certain areas which are not allowed for parking, they are not summoned. They commit the same offence every day but no action is taken against them. If any other car is parked at the same place, the owner, who probably does not bribe the traffic police, will get a summons very quickly.

The third point is about ambulance chasing and the traffic police. Whenever there is a traffic accident, certain legal firms who normally do ambulance chasing are at the place of the accident even before the relatives know about it. These legal firms are supplied with reports and other necessary news -

The Chairman: Does this come under the Minister for Home Affairs, Mr Ramaswamy?

Mr Ramaswamy: Yes, Sir, the traffic police is under the Ministry of Home Affairs.

The Chairman: All right, carry on. I am not stopping you, Mr Ramaswamy.

Mr Ramaswamy: These legal firms are supplied with reports and other necessary news more quickly than other firms. I am told that sometimes the reports are tailored to suit the lawyers representing the complainant of the accident. These firms bribe the traffic police personnel regularly. I do know that the Government has passed legislation to plug the loopholes in ambulance-chasing cases, but this has failed to stop this corrupt practice. I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Home Affairs is himself a lawyer, and he is aware of this situation.

Mr Tang See Chim: What is the implication?

Mr Ramaswamy: I hope the Minister will do something to stop the practice.

The Chairman: Would you like to listen to Mr Ng also, Prof. Wong?

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: All right, Sir.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, the Minister seems to be satisfied with the crime rate which he gave just now, somewhere in the region of 10.2 per cent. This rate is comparable to that in Hong Kong. I believe there is still plenty of room for improvement. Certainly we want to aim for higher performance by our police force.

The other point I wish to bring out is that the Minister has not answered my last question about the setting up of a school for detectives within the Police Academy. I would be obliged for an answer.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Sir, point of clarification, I have never called my constituency the "Chicago of Singapore". In fact, I am trying to discourage people from calling it that, particularly the press.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Mr Speaker, Sir, when I say that the state of crime in Singapore does reflect that our police force has shown a higher degree of operational efficiency, I do not at any moment suggest that it is not trying to reduce the crime rate. I am trying to say that our crime position is not alarming.

6.30 p.m.

With regard to the school for detectives, a group of people are working on the reorganisation of the Criminal Investigation Department. One of their proposals is that we should have such a school, and its desirability and feasibility is at the moment under review.

At various times Members of the House have referred to cases of corruption of the traffic police. Investigation is still going on, and I do not think it is proper for me to say anything at this point of time. But I do want to take the opportunity to say that if some members of the traffic police are moved out of the Traffic Division, there should be no conclusion at all that they are involved, because some of them are transferred out merely as a matter of routine.

The Member for Potong Pasir has raised the question of victimisation on the part of the traffic police. Last year alone there were 260,735 reports of traffic offences. I should have thought that if a policeman wants to victimise anybody, he would be standing there and could not be doing his duty properly. But I think the traffic police has been enforcing the law impartially, and the fact that there are so many cases of traffic offences is an indication in that direction. However, this is not to suggest that such a thing might not happen, as in the instance mentioned by the Member for Potong Pasir. As I have already said, if the instance which was raised did, in fact, occur, will he give me all the details so that an investigation can be carried out? And if the Member is correct, action will be taken.

As regards the question of ambulance-chasing, I believe this is a matter that has been brought up many times in Parliament. As far as we know, there is no evidence to show that it is a serious matter, but if there are any further instances I will be glad to look into it. I think I should take this opportunity to say something very important. A policeman's job is a very difficult one, allegation of corruption being an occupational hazard. I have received numerous complaints and every complaint has been investigated. More often than not, the investigation suggests that the complaints are founded on malice rather than on fact. And the surprising thing is that the police force has borne all these complaints with fortitude. This is really a tribute to the force itself.

Mr J. F. Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I be accorded the same privilege as the Member for Potong Pasir to speak on this?

The Chairman: All right.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to commend the Minister for having dealt with all the questions that have been raised with such courtesy and for having injected into his answers a note of sweet reasonableness. If his example is followed by his officers and men in the police force, I am sure there will be a very, very great improvement.

Notwithstanding that, Sir, I would like to make one or two remarks, the main burden of which refers to the traffic policemen. Sir, I do not wish to make matters more difficult for this unit than they already are, but I feel that a few observations have to go on record. First, I do not think that the establishment of the Traffic Division has sufficient personnel to tackle the enormous task which it faces. Reference has been made in this House to the administrative backlog of traffic offences. Happily, new procedures are being introduced to overcome these difficulties. However, there remains other evidence to show that the task of the traffic police has perhaps been found too formidable. It may be pointed out, Sir, that the large amount of fines collected as a result of police action against traffic offenders indicates some success in enforcement. On the other hand, the fact that one can see drivers getting off with all kinds of infringements of traffic offences, despite the large number of bookings, testifies to the dismal side of the picture. Sir, I am sure all of us would like to see enforcement so successfully achieved that traffic offences are the exception rather than the rule. But I am afraid that this is not so, that the traffic regulations are not universally applied, not because there is any discrimination but because there are not enough people to deal with the situation. The person who succeeds in drawing the attention of the traffic police to his transgressions feels aggrieved that he has had such bad luck, while others have got away. I do not think it is necessary to detail all sorts of offences that one can meet with when one drives on the road. But what is the reason for this syndrome? I think one can attribute this to the poor quality also of traffic enforcers. I wish to speak carefully, Sir, because I do not wish to make any remarks that would reflect badly on the people who are in charge, but there is a large percentage of members of the traffic police who seem to me not to be adequately trained. It is not unusual when passing a crossing to see obvious breaches of the traffic regulations being ignored by people, by traffic policemen on points duty. I have also seen several instances of a slow motorist hugging the centre of the road or hugging the right side of the road, holding up a whole line of traffic, and passing by on the left is a traffic policeman on a motor-bike and he does not pay any attention at all. He is obviously looking for something else. [Interruption] Yes, I would like to know what!

Sir, I think the main cause why there is this lawlessness on the road in respect of breaches of the traffic regulations is that we do not have enough people, and a lot of the people whom we do have have not been adequately trained. I think, too, that it is possible for the traffic police to play a greater role in educating the public regarding traffic regulations. There are many cases where people somehow or other seem to have forgotten the rules of road courtesy, or they may have learnt these rules simply to pass their driving test and have conveniently forgotten it afterwards. It is necessary perhaps to institute some system whereby if a person has committed a certain number of offences he has to take a test again, or some such rule. Again this would mean increasing the number and improving the quality of traffic police personnel. [Interruption] Sir, lots of suggestions are coming from the Backbenches! I shall not proceed any more, as I think that is an adequate indication.

If I may move out of that to another little point not connected with the traffic police. It has something to do with the Commercial Crimes Branch. I wonder if the Minister will tell us to what extent proper training in the detection of fraud and such like occurrences is given to, or will be given to, members of the Commercial Crimes Branch.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, can I just bring up one point so that the Minister can answer at the same time?

The Chairman: All right.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, my point concerns the revision of salary scales and service conditions for the rank and file. I believe a committee of inquiry has been set up. In fact, the point has been raised by me and it seems to me that the Minister has missed giving me an answer. Can I ask him to oblige me?

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Sir, before I answer the Member for Mountbatten, perhaps he could ask the question again. He has asked so many questions that I am not quite sure which particular question he wants answered, although in respect of the matter of the committee of inquiry --

The Chairman: Revision of salaries.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: He wants to know when it is coming out, is it?

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: The findings.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Findings? Well, I have to wait until the report is submitted before I can disclose the findings. At the moment, I think it is still in the process of deliberation and of making recommendations.

Regarding traffic offences, can I say that they are not generally regarded by members of the public in the nature of criminal offences. Therefore, there is no odium attached to the committing of traffic offences. It is quite true people speed: when I drive along a certain road on my way home, I see everybody is speeding. Of course, ideally if we could post a policeman at every street corner we could catch every one of them. But it is unfortunate that the number of policemen one can have in the force is determined, first, by the cost, and, secondly, by the availability of men. As I have stated earlier, in connection with another question, last year alone 260,735 traffic offences were committed. This is a very high figure. The best way to reduce the number of traffic offences will be for the public to realise that they have a responsibility and that they should as far as possible obey the law.

As regards commercial crimes, I believe a somewhat similar question was asked last year. Since then arrangements have been made for personnel in the Commercial Crimes Branch of the C.I.D. and other police officers to attend courses conducted by the Extramural Studies Department of the University of Singapore to give them a background in banking and accounting matters. Having regard to the fact that crime in this field is liable to vary and become more sophisticated as Singapore becomes more an international business centre, a separate bureau in the Attorney-General's Chambers with experienced staff will be set up to investigate offences in connection with commerce and industry. It can be envisaged that the officers attached to such a section will have the expertise and be trained for commercial crime detection.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the answers given to the various points I have raised, which I find quite satisfactory and acceptable, I hope that the answers that the Minister has given will be put into practice by the police officers in improving the police force, and I believe that this will give better service to the people.

I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

6.45 p.m.

The following amendment stood in the names of Messrs. Yeo Choo Kok and Tay Boon Too --

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Mr Tay Boon Too is not here. Amendment No. (3) * is not being moved.

• The same amendment, standing in the names of Messrs. Ramaswamy and Conceicao, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1151.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1331.

Sir, it appears to me that the strength of the Guard and Escort Unit is not quite adequate to meet the present demands of the business community. I have been told that a great number of regular users of the services of the unit have recently had their services withdrawn from them without sufficient warning. I have also been told that fresh applications for the services of the Guard and Escort Unit are no longer being entertained. I would like to take the opportunity of asking the Minister what plans he has to expand the services provided by this unit.

Sir, in view of our inability to provide the services required, I would also like to know whether the Minister will allow private firms providing similar services to be adequately armed. I believe that the present position is that they are not allowed to arm themselves. So long as we allow valuable property to go unprotected, it seems to me that this is rather a dangerous situation and we are, in fact, indirectly encouraging the commission of crime.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is quite true that of late the Guard and Escort Unit has not been able to accede to a number of requests to provide escort services. Let me put the position in its proper perspective. The authorised strength of the Guard and Escort Unit is 13 officers and 1,227 men. However, its actual strength is 12 officers and 1,034 men; that is to say, it is short of one officer and 193 men. On every working day, the Guard and Escort Unit provides services to 151 banks, Government departments, statutory boards and commercial firms, in addition to providing guards for specific duties in other places. All efforts are being made to accommodate requests from business houses for escort services. In recent times the demand for the services of the Guard and Escort Unit has increased largely because of the increased public awareness of the advantages of security protection. At the moment the National Productivity Centre is being asked to make a study of the Guard and Escort Unit so as to render its services more businesslike and to meet public demand. It is hoped that some time this year we will reorganise this unit by recruiting enough personnel to provide the necessary services.

As regards arming the private security firms, I would like to put the position in its proper perspective. Let me give the figures of armed robbery in Singapore. In 1969, there were 26 cases of armed robbery where firearms were used. Last year the number was 25. It has gone down by one. In respect of bank, goldsmith and pawnshop robberies, there were 11 cases in 1969. and 10 cases in 1970. In view of this situation, the Government sees no justification of arms being issued to security firms.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank the Minister for his explanation. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1357.

Mr Speaker, Sir, since I have two other amendments coming up in succession, may I be allowed to range over them as well?

The Chairman: Are the subheads related?

Mr Conceicao: No. I am thinking of making use of the opportunity to move from point to point.

The Chairman: I think the Member had better concentrate on this particular subhead 1357.

Mr Conceicao: As you please, Sir, I would just like to have some information why there seem to be various grades of qualifications required for a Force Education Officer. I would imagine that there would be a certain job specification for him. In relation to that job specification, you seek a person with the required qualification. There seem to be four different levels of qualification. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten me on this point.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Mr Speaker, Sir, the primary function of the Force Education Officer is to provide general education as well as language training for junior officers and constables. He is also responsible for the organisation and conduct of language and competitive examinations for the rank and file. The duties of the Force Education Officer include, first, the organisation of general education classes from Secondary I to Secondary IV level. Second, the organisation of language dialect classes for recruits, junior officers and trainee inspectors. Third, the organisation and conducting of examinations in languages as well as Non-Commission Officers qualifying courses.

The Force Education Officer has also administrative duties. These include financial administration, payment of salaries to part-time instructors, purchase of education material, supervision of professional part-time instructors and liaison work with various educational institutions capable of providing these part-time instructors.

The four categories under this particular subhead pertain to a specific grade of officer who may be appointed as Force Education Officer each with its own salary scheme. Any one of these classes of officers can serve as Force Education Officer.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1601.

This subhead relates to the Commandant, Vigilante Corps. I wonder if the Minister can enlighten us on the sort of instruction or training given to members of the Vigilante Corps, vis-a-vis, for example, their general behaviour at functions or outside when they are in uniform. Let me talk about their general behaviour at functions because I had some experience of this. I attended a Vigilante Corps function once and I was rather impressed by the parade, especially the marching of the first few columns. However, when it was all over and when the drinks were served, I had to step aside very agilely in order not to get trampled in the rush for these refreshments. Perhaps they need a certain amount of training in behaviour. This may be just an indication of their behaviour. I think some advice on how to behave under such circumstances may be necessary.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to raise some questions relating to the Vigilante Corps. As far as we know, they had a glorious history a few years ago when we were confronted with the problem of internal security. In fact, many people responded to the call of the Government by joining the Vigilante Corps and played their part well in helping the police to preserve law and order and maintain public security. In this respect, we must express our appreciation to the volunteers who took part in the Vigilante Corps activities. However, as far as I know, the number of volunteers has diminished greatly in the last year or so. At the beginning there were 10,000 volunteers in the Vigilante Corps. In the last few years the number has gone down to 2,000 or 3,000 volunteers. I would like to know the reason for the decrease in the number of volunteers in the Vigilante Corps. Is it because of the question of training, or because we do not give them enough allowance?

However, we know that the number of national servicemen serving in the Vigilante Corps at the moment exceeds 10,000. This is quite a large figure. National servicemen serving in the Vigilante Corps have to undergo six months' basic training. After that, they have to undergo training once or twice a week. This is quite adequate. My question is this. Have these national servicemen been detailed for patrol duty so far? And have they carried out their duties in the same manner as the volunteers who were sent out in the old days on patrol and to assume guard duties in various places? If they have been sent out, what kind of duties have they been performing? Has their performance been satisfactory? I would like to know whether the people who have undergone the training can perform their duties well.

Dr Chiang Hai Ding: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I explain why I am speaking up for the police and the Vigilante Corps? Recently members of the Ulu Pandan Citizens' Consultative Committee and I paid a visit to a police department and the Vigilante Corps. Members of the Vigilante Corps have assisted the community centre in my constituency at various functions. The members of the Citizens' Consultative Committee and I recently visited two Vigilante Corps training centres along Dunearn Road. We were briefed on the objectives of the Vigilante Corps and shown some of its activities. I think we should look beyond such minor issues as the table manners of the Vigilante Corps trainees. I do not know the reason, but it could possibly be that they were kept from the food for too long by a lengthy speech, thereby leading to hunger on their part.

7.00 p.m.

Some of us may not realise that the V.C. trainees comprise largely young men who are not highly educated in a formal sense, i.e., they may not necessarily possess Master's or Doctor's degrees. They are also a very large number, about 18,000 of them. These young men are being given opportunities to learn such useful skills as fire fighting, first aid and other related subjects of civil defence. They are also being given opportunities, which they might not otherwise enjoy, to take part in a wide variety of recreational facilities such as gymnastics, judo, fencing (both Western and Eastern), and cultural pursuits, like playing the harmonica in brass bands.

My Citizens' Consultative Committee members and I were highly impressed by the efforts of the Vigilante Corps to promote good citizenship which we observed in the two training centres that we visited. The instructors and the trainees came from all races and spoke a wide variety of languages and dialects. But they were one in evolving a sense of belonging to the Vigilante Corps and of national identity.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Home Affairs (Mr L. P. Rodrigo): Mr Speaker, Sir, my Minister has asked me to reply to the queries on this subhead as he has assigned the Vigilante Corps to my care. I will immediately begin by expressing my appreciation especially to the Member for Ulu Pandan who has, in fact, done most of my job in answering the queries and confirming the wonderful effort that is being carried out by the Vigilante Corps. In view of what the Member has said, I extend a ready welcome to all Backbenchers to visit the Vigilante Corps headquarters so as to be apprised of the development and the progress that we are making over there.

Sir, if I may attempt to answer the queries raised by the Member for Sembawang, the Vigilante Corps initially was founded upon volunteer manpower six years ago. In 1967, the V.C. began its role as an organisation for national servicemen under the Vigilante Corps Ordinance. The concept of the Corps is the same today as it was at the time of its inception. It is a youth training organisation. It takes in our youthful citizens from various levels of our society. National servicemen enter the Vigilante Corps and are trained to be efficient individuals, good citizens, responsible neighbours and loyal national servicemen. There are limitations in a national servicemen organisation like the Vigilante Corps. But despite these limitations, I am able to say that the officer levels, both in the non-national servicemen level and national servicemen level, are doing a magnificent job in training our youthful citizens to become disciplined and responsible members of a uniformed organisation.

There has been some development of late in the Vigilante Corps. Today the Corps is being prepared for a civil defence role, which means that there has been a reorganisation of the schedule of service. Where previously it was intended for example, to assign members of the Vigilante Corps to constituency duties at the end of their eighth year of service in the 42-year part-time national service, the schedule of service has now been altered to provide for Vigilante Corps training in the first four years, civil defence training for the second four years, after which members of the Corps will be assigned to constituency duties in the last four-year phase, which is termed the "reserve phase'. To that extent, therefore, the schedule of service in the Vigilante Corps has been changed. Thus, answering the specific query raised by the Member for Sembawang, Vigilante Corps members, therefore, will not be assigned to constituency duties until after the eighth year on the present new schedule of service.

As to why volunteer members in the Corps are diminishing in number, the reason is simply that the Corps today is basically a national servicemen organisation. And the number of volunteers is diminishing in view of this fact. I can inform the Member for Sembawang that all members of the Vigilante Corps receive reasonable rates of allowance to assist them to attend parades.

As to the Member's query on the performance of the Corps today, I am able to say that, considering the tremendous size of the organisation and the fact that it takes, as I have said, our youthful citizens from all levels of society, the Vigilante Corps is indeed performing a magnificent job, and not least the officer levels are performing a magnificent job in training such a vast uniformed organisation. Answering the Member for Katong, Sir, I agree with him that there could be occasions such as the one he has described where members of the Corps have demonstrated their over-enthusiasm for tea. But, in fact, I have taken note of such incidents and brought them to the attention of the Commandant of the Corps, and he and his group of officers are attempting to gear this uniformed organisation along lines of gracious living.

Sir, I trust that I have answered all the queries of Members.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am glad that, as a result of my raising what I confess now to be a relatively trivial issue, a great deal of light has been thrown on the more fundamental aspects of the work of the Vigilante Corps.

I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2176.

Sir, may I ask what sort of courses have been conducted for officers and what sort of courses are anticipated which will incur expenses amounting to $8,400?

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Sir, the provision of $8,400 in the 1971-72 estimates is for 100 teachers from the secondary schools who are potential officer material to undergo residential basic training courses at the Police Academy. The officers are provided with meals and with tea during the course at a cost of $2 per head per day. Each year there are two basic courses, the first during the March-April school holidays, and the second during the November-December school holidays. Each course is of six weeks' duration and caters for 50 officers. This year the courses are as follows:

The first course commences on 22nd March for 50 officers at $2 per day for 42 days, amounting to $4,200.

The second course begins in November and the amount voted for is the same, making a total of $8,400.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I thank the Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $53,797,630 for Head 1401 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1402 -

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao.

Mr J. F. Conceicao: Sir, I am not moving my amendment*.

The Chairman: Mr Govindasamy.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1402 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

Sir, the Immigration Department is another department which is always considering applications. Applications for visas are considered for a very long time before decisions are made. Many of our citizens apply to the Immigration Department to bring in their wives, children, friends, etc., for a visit to Singapore. When an application is made, supporting evidence like marriage certificates, birth certificates, etc., are called for. Even after the submission of the required evidence, it takes the department a considerable length of time before a decision is made.

7.15 p.m.

Enquiries about the application evoke the reply that it is under consideration. When this consideration takes a long time, one begins to wonder whether the application is really under consideration or whether it is filed away and forgotten.

Another sore point concerns citizens with wives or husbands born in Malaysia. In many cases their marriages were solemnised by the Registrar of Marriages in Singapore and yet permanent entry into Singapore is denied to them. In such cases, the wife or husband stays in Singapore on a visitor's pass. They have to go for a fortnightly renewal of their visas either at the Immigration check-point at Woodlands or at South Quay. Some people even take a fortnight's leave to Johore Bahru and come back with a new chop. Sometimes this visitor's pass is extended to three months. One has to pay $10 for the renewal of a three-month visitor's pass. I wonder whether it is cheaper to pay $10 and get a three-month visa or have it stamped every fortnight. To all intents and purposes, some of these people who have their wives or husbands permanently staying in Singapore, with periodical extensions of the visitor's pass, own shops or are otherwise self-employed. I can understand the difficulty of their not being able to obtain Singapore citizenship, but I cannot understand the difficulty of their not being able to obtain permanent stay here even though they are holding permanent jobs or are self-employed and are capable of maintaining their families. If you say they do not earn enough and deny them permanent stay, they will keep their wives here continually on a visitor's pass. I would like the Minister to inform the House why these people, who to all intents and purposes have been residing here for years, are denied permanent stay in Singapore.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, under this subhead I would like to ask the Minister one or two questions. The Member for Telok Blangah has raised some questions, and I share his sympathy for the people affected. I would like to ask the Minister in what circumstances an application for permanent stay can be approved. As the Member for Telok Blangah has pointed out, if the husband is a Singapore citizen and the wife is from Malaysia and there is a marriage certificate to prove their relationship, and also there is proof that their children are born in Singapore, in such a case the Immigration authorities would normally give her only three to six months stay in Singapore instead of permanent residence. I have received complaints that last year they were granted a stay here for as long as a year, but this year they have reduced the one year's stay to six months, with a provision of renewal of their pass. This causes the people concerned unnecessary inconvenience, because the husband would definitely have to shoulder his responsibility in looking after his own family, including his wife. This is not a point which our own Government should worry about. The question of giving such a person permanent stay here is a reasonable matter to consider. I therefore ask the Minister what are the conditions to be satisfied before an application is approved for permanent stay.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I would like to support the comments made by the Member for Telok Blangah. I myself have come across a very tragic case. A man had worked in a British hospital here for 16 years and had settled down here. He married a Singapore citizen, had two children who were born in Singapore, and bought a Housing and Development Board flat. After his discharge from the British Armed Forces, he was sent back to Malaysia, and his family was left alone in Singapore. At the moment he is still shuttling back and forth to have his visitor's pass stamped every fortnight. I wonder whether the Minister for Home Affairs will give sympathetic consideration to such cases.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Mr Speaker, Sir, that some Members of Parliament should raise this question of entry of wives and children of Singapore citizens is to be expected. In fact, I believe this is an almost annual affair.

As regards the complaints of long delays, I have asked the Controller of Immigration how long it takes to process an application, and he has replied that it takes about three weeks to process the application, provided all the necessary information is given. If it is not given, the processing takes a longer period. This is the mechanics of things.

The question asked by the Member for Sembawang is quite a pertinent one. This is the question of application of permanent residence. Let me, first of all, state that getting permanent residence in Singapore is neither a right nor an entitlement. There are many considerations involved. The rationale is a very simple one. We have only 224 square miles. If more people become permanent residents in Singapore, we might relieve temporary hardship for a number of cases, but we are going to compound the hardship for the next generation. This is the general criterion. When we consider cases of wives and children of Singapore citizens, we ask ourselves very basic questions. Can the persons concerned support their families? If they can, we admit them. If they cannot, we have to say, "Well, it is a very difficult case and we have difficulty in approving the application."

The Member for Toa Payoh raised a very specific case. I am not fully aware of all the details, but I presume the man is not a Singapore citizen. If that is the case, the general practice is that wives and children follow the nationality of their husbands. Therefore, he goes back to Malaysia if he is a Malaysian citizen. That is how things are. I know he has to undergo hardship, but getting entry into a country is a very difficult matter, as anyone who tries to enter another country from Singapore will know.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, the Minister has made a very important point, that is, whether the husband is able to support the wife. Sir, the wife has been here for years on a visitor's pass, renewable every three or six months. The husband has been supporting her for two years, and if he can do that, surely he can also look after her. Whether or not permanent entry is given to her, she is still in Singapore. Renewal of a visitor's pass is not too difficult. How do such people become a burden to us? The husband is a Singapore citizen. His wife is not asking for citizenship, but just a right to stay with him with official sanction, instead of going every two weeks to Woodlands to get her visitor's pass extended.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Sir, such people are permitted to stay if they get the necessary social visit passes. It is not necessary for them, every two weeks, to go all the way to Woodlands to get their visas stamped. If, in fact, the person concerned can really support his wife and children, that is the reason why they are here. Getting a social visit pass is very different from getting permanent residence. He might not be able to get permanent residence, but he could still enter Singapore on a social visit pass. Permanent status leads to other questions of citizenship.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, if the wife also owns a business here and is paying local income tax, will the Minister consider that sufficient ground for her to be granted permanent stay in Singapore?

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: I would ask the Member to let me have all the necessary details and I will consider the matter.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Thank you, Sir.

Dr Augustine H. H. Tan: Sir, on this point of permanent status and the visitor's pass for the wives and children of Singapore citizens, will the Minister consider giving passes, say, valid for a year or two, to these people rather than having them go every two weeks and renewing their passes? In other words, recognise that they are going to be here in any case; save them the bus or taxi fares.

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Sir, I think the Members for Telok Blangah and Sembawang have raised questions why sometimes the passes are for one month's and sometimes six months' stay in Singapore. I will look into this matter and rationalise the whole position.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, will the Minister also, at the same time, look into the possibility of doing away with the $10 fee for renewal of a visitor's pass every six months?

Prof. Wong Lin Ken: Sir, I will consider the matter.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $2,286,790 for Head 1402 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: The remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement are Heads 0103, 0105, 0106, 0602, 0702, 0704, 1102, 1103, 1104, 1105, 1106, 1111, 1112, 1201, 1302, 1304, 1307, 1308 and 1309.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Abstract of Estimated Expenditure on pages 51 and 52 of Paper Cmd. 3 of 1971 stand part of the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1971, to 31st March, 1972, " put and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $1,101,467,040 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1971, to 31st March, 1972, contained in Paper Cmd. 3 of 1971," put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has come to a certain resolution.

Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $1,101,467,040 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1971, to 31st March. 1972, contained in Paper Cmd. 3 of 1971."

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolution."

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution accordingly agreed to.