MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1974 TO 31ST MARCH, 1975

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [1st Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

3.30 p.m.

The Chairman: Main and Development Estimates of Singapore for the financial year 1st April, 1974 to 31st March, 1975, contained in Paper Cmd. 5 of 1974. For convenience, I shall take the totals for each head of expenditure in the Main Estimates and the Development Estimates as they appear in the fifth and sixth columns respectively of the Summary of Estimated Expenditure on pages 49 and 50 of the Paper.

May I draw the attention of hon. Members to the Statement which appears at the bottom of page 47 of the Paper? The totals in respect of the Main Estimates for the two Heads AA "Civil List for the President of the Republic of Singapore" and AB "Statutory Expenditure" are not to be voted, and I shall, therefore, not take those totals. Further, the total amount to be voted in respect of the Main Estimates is $1,943,129,650 and not the sum of $2,299,475,460 shown on page 50.

I shall deal first with the heads of expenditure in respect of which amendments stand in the Order Paper Supplement.

Head BC --

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head BC in respect of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, the point of this amendment is to seek clarification on the question of production of annual reports by statutory bodies constituting a group on the one hand and departments of the Ministries making up a group on the other. I am aware, Sir, that in the case of statutory bodies, such as the Port of Singapore Authority, and so on, such bodies which are established by statutes have incorporated in the statutes provisions which require the compilation of annual reports and the submission of these reports to the relevant Ministers and subsequently to Parliament. However, not all Acts incorporate such provisions. There are some Acts establishing certain statutory bodies which have, for some reason or other, omitted such provisions, and therefore these statutory bodies are not compiling annual reports nor are they submitting such reports to Parliament.

Of the other group comprising departments in the Ministries, these departments, I would presume, would be directed by a proper authority in so far as the compilation and submission of reports are concerned. Of about 60 departments in the various ministries from which reports may be expected, only 23 are producing reports at the moment. And of the 23 reports, 18 finally arrived at Parliament and subsequently circulated to Members.

Sir, I seek the compulsory production of these reports both by the statutory bodies and departments in the Ministries. Apart from the fact that Parliament votes monies directly to departments in Ministries and indirectly to statutory bodies through contributions and loans, I think the convenient availability of such reports in the Parliament Library would assist Members in making a thorough examination of Main Estimates during Budget sessions.

The other matter that I wish to touch on is not actually for the purpose of securing an answer from the Minister. It is rather for the purpose of securing an effect in the nature of reporting of proceedings in Parliament by the daily newspaper in the English language. Examination of Main and Development Estimates for the new fiscal year takes place only once a year during Budget, and Backbenchers regard this as an opportunity to express the views of the constituents and their own views upon aspects of Government policy. It is natural, therefore, that Backbenchers expect their views and criticism of Government policies to appear in an English language daily newspaper that is reporting proceedings in Parliament. However, it is my view that there does not appear to be an indication that there will be fair and sufficient reporting of proceedings in Parliament. I am concerned that Backbenchers receive adequate reporting in the English language newspaper daily, at least in the few days to come when the Main and Development Estimates are debated in Parliament. Backbenchers, in the Budget sessions taken once a year, certainly hope to show the people that they can carry the people's views and arguments to Government through Parliament. It is a pity if the indications are that this opportunity is going to be stifled on the one hand by a large number of advertisements in the pages of the newspaper which reports proceedings in Parliament, and on the other by what I think is an excessively disproportionate reporting of the Government in its pages. I feel that there is one whole year for Government policies to be reported quite adequately, whereas there is only one Budget session in a year when the views of Backbenchers on aspects of Government policies may be reported.

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I first deal with the Member's remarks on the press? All I can say is that whatever a Member says here is properly and accurately reported in Hansard. They can make their corrections before publication. As for the press, we do not control them.

As for annual reports, the position is this: in the case of statutory boards, the requirement to publish annual reports and to table them in Parliament is provided for in the statute setting up the statutory board itself. In the case of reports of Government Ministries and departments, this has been customarily handled administratively. The decision whether to publish and table such reports in Parliament lies at the discretion of the Permanent Secretary, who no doubt consults his Minister when in doubt. I propose to read an extract from the Manual of Administrative Procedure XV, paragraph 18:

`The order of the Permanent Secretary will be obtained in case of a department annual report on whether the report is to be printed and published and whether it is to be tabled before Parliament.'

The Member wants all reports to come to Parliament. This means a considerable effort on the part of Ministries and departments to write up reports and leave copies in the Parliament Library. The question is whether this is worthwhile. I doubt it. Where it is considered that the contents of a departmental report are of a general public interest, the practice is to print, publish and table. Where, however, the reports are mainly statistical information, which in many cases are already reproduced in the Statistical Year Book, or where the report of a department or Ministry is already in the Year Book, then the printing, publication and tabling in Parliament of such reports is not done, as it would mean unnecessary duplication and waste of public funds for they really serve no useful purpose. Where the report of a department or Ministry is of a confidential nature, of course, the report is not published. I refer to the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Perhaps this is the reason why they are not asked so many questions in Parliament!

I assure Members that annual reports of departments and Ministries hitherto published will continue to be published, but every attempt must be made to have them printed soon after the close of the year covered by the report. In the past we have reports filed in three years after the year in which it was due, and I myself have had to take up this question with many departments in my Ministry -- that it is pointless publishing last year's report in 1979!

May I conclude by telling the Member that if he wishes a particular department's report at present not published for general information, he can raise the matter with the Minister concerned.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I certainly welcome the Minister's suggestion, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment in view of the Minister's reply.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,724,660 for Head BC ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

Head CA --

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head CA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BA 1109*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy.)

Sir, this amendment is moved in order to seek clarification in respect of the Anti-Pollution Unit. When the Unit was first set up in 1971, I spoke during the Budget Debate, as reported in Hansard, Vol. 30, col. 789, welcoming the setting up of such a Unit.

At that time it was not very clear as to which Ministry would be responsible for such a Unit. I also had my reservations about several Ministries or departments being agencies responsible for enforcement action. In 1971, the Ministry of Health, Police. Registry of Vehicles, as well as the Port of Singapore Authority, were responsible for enforcement of the various anti-pollution measures. I asked if it was not possible for the Anti-Pollution Unit to be made the sole authority for the enforcement of the various anti-pollution measures. Since then the Unit has been set up and has been under the Prime Minister's Office. Since last year we have set up the Ministry of the Environment which deals with various environmental problems. I think the Ministry of the Environment will be the most suitable Ministry to be made responsible for the Anti-Pollution Unit. My query raised in 1971 is still valid in respect of enforcement authority being vested in more than one Ministry or department.

3.45 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, it has been some time now since the Anti-Pollution Unit was established. May we have a detailed account of the activities of this Unit, and what has been the general effect of its activities? As far as I am aware, the anti-pollution campaign has been quite successful. I wonder if the campaign could be repeated from time to time after short intervals so that our people are constantly reminded of it until the problem is eradicated.

As for air pollution, there are still buses and taxis emitting large volumes of black smoke. Can something be done to keep a better control of these vehicles?

The Minister for the Environment (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, actually the Anti-Pollution Unit was established in April 1970 and it was under the Prime Minister's Office. It was established initially to look into air pollution control in Singapore. Since then the Unit has set up the necessary machinery and enacted the necessary legislation to control air pollution from various sources. On a wider scope, the Unit is also responsible for:

(a) the formulation of pollution control policy, especially those impinging on the industrialisation of Singapore;

(b) identification and screening of the larger industries according to their proneness to pollution, and to encourage the setting up of those industries less likely to cause pollution;

(c) the study of problems of pollution caused by emissions from motor vehicles;

(d) the formulation of standards for environmental pollution control.

The Unit has since actively looked into some of these problems, and examples are the establishment and siting of some larger industries, like oil refineries and petro-chemical industries. It also has looked into the problem of hard and soft detergents, pollution by sawmills, pollution by agricultural activities, and pollution by motor vehicles.

Mr Speaker. Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah will note that these problems impinge on the responsibilities of many other Government Ministries, departments and statutory bodies. Policies on these matters are carefully considered after consultation with these departments. Thus the Anti-Pollution Unit serves to co-ordinate the departments and statutory bodies involved when it comes to pollution problems. Often a choice has to be made: either not to have an industry because it pollutes and so losing the economic advantages, or to have the industry with attendant pollution reduced through control with costly devices, but still giving economic advantages.

Having the Unit under the Prime Minister's Office has its advantages in that the competing interests of various Ministries can be more expeditiously resolved. So the Anti-Pollution Unit will continue to remain under the Prime Minister's Office for the time being.

The hon. Member for Telok Blangah is right in that enforcement authority for the various anti-pollution measures and control are vested in the various departments at the moment. For instance, the question of bringing smoky buses to book comes under the ROV, and not under my Ministry. And the question of pollution in markets and dirtying of markets, which was under the Ministry of Health, has now been shifted to the Ministry of the Environment. That is another reason why the Anti-Pollution Unit should best be left under the Prime Minister's Office for the time being. Mr Speaker, Sir, my earlier answer to the Member for Telok Blangah refers to some of the main activities of the Anti-Pollution Unit.

To answer the Member for Anson, on air pollution, the Unit has been successful in preventing an increase in air pollution level despite rapid industrialisation in the last few years. Many existing factories have improved on their house-keeping and have installed control equipment to abate emissions of pollutants. The Unit has also been successful in seeing that the establishment and allocation of factories are done with due consideration to the environment, especially the pollution problems. These early preventive measures are more effective and economical in the long run. But I would also like to inform the Member for Anson that the Anti-Pollution Unit published a report in 1973, which has been distributed to Members of Parliament, and it covers in detail the activities of the Unit. I would suggest that, if he wants more details, he should refer to the Report.

The control of air pollution from buses and taxis, of course, requires constant surveillance. The ROV and the Traffic Police have jurisdiction over this problem, as I have said, and many offenders have been fined in court for running vehicles emitting excessive smoke. The problem now probably is to see that all the buses are on the move, and it is possible that in the ROV's estimate this problem is to be given first priority rather than the problem of cutting down the emission of smoke. Once there are enough buses, probably they will then be more severe upon offenders. It is now a question of transporting the commuter or moving the buses out of the road.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the real cause of black smoke actually lies with the running of diesel vehicles, and it is due to the lack of proper operation and lack of maintenance of the engine. If a diesel engine is maintained regularly and properly, there is no reason for it to emit black smoke. To a large extent, Sir, the problem lies in the hands of the owners who should keep their vehicles in good mechanical condition. I can assure the Member for Anson that with better transport services and management, the emission of black smoke will be reduced significantly.

On the point of anti-pollution campaigns, Sir, I would like to assure the Member for Anson that such campaigns will be held from time to time to constantly remind the people of the need to prevent pollution in Singapore and of their social responsibility to help Government in maintaining a clean and healthy environment.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I am grateful to the Minister for enlightening me that the Unit was set up in 1970, and not in 1971. But I go by the Main Estimates, Sir, and the first time we allocated funds for the Unit was in the 1971 Estimates. It is possible that they set up the Unit earlier and asked for money later.

Sir, the very fact that the Minister for the Environment is replying to this amendment bears out the fact that the Unit should be under the Ministry of the Environment, and not the Prime Minister's Office.

The Chairman: Mr Govindasamy, I have stretched the guillotine time to well past 3.50 p.m.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, since you have stretched it, I thought I would say-

The Chairman: Order. I shall cut it short now.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $3,562,880 for Head CA ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $50,199,970 for Head CA ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head DA --

The Chairman: May I remind hon. Members that the guillotine time for this Head is 4.35 p.m., and I am going to use the guillotine.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head DA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1002*. (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy).

Sir, the estimated expenditure to be allocated for the Ministry of Defence appearing in the Summary of the Main and Development Estimates amounts to over $500 million for the whole Ministry. This accounts for about 27 per cent of the total expenditure, and ranks second place to all the Ministries.

Sir, I fully appreciate that the Government has to allocate such a big sum of money for Defence, and I agree that this is necessary because, as an independent and sovereign State, we must establish in our country a strong defence system and structure to ensure our safety, security and development. Without security, there will not be any development. But with security we will be able to attract foreign investments, thus increasing our prosperity. This is necessary. So the citizens of Singapore quite understand why the Government has to adopt such a policy. There are very few critics in Singapore against such a policy and if there is any criticism at all I think such a criticism is based on misunderstanding or lack of understanding of the policies and the needs of our country.

Mr Speaker, Sir, undoubtedly under the enlightened leadership of our Government and the patriotic support of the people, there will be better performance among our defence personnel. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the national servicemen who have given their help to the rural people. In my constituency, Sembawang, there are a number of roads which have been made up or repaired with the help of the national servicemen, under the gotong royong system. The spirit of co-operation and help from the national servicemen have already established good relations between them and the people of Singapore, particularly in the rural areas. Sir, with continuing development of national service and national defence and the greater discipline displayed by our national servicemen in peace-time as evident now, we must create more opportunities for them to display and manifest their co-operative spirit. I hope that consideration will be given to set up a productive unit for our national servicemen so that, in addition to national service and military training, they can be engaged in productive processes, e.g, in agriculture where they can do animal husbandry, vegetable farming, and so on.

Sir, notwithstanding all that I have said in praise of our national servicemen and the defence system, I think there is still room for improvement in certain respects. Firstly, there is the request from the national servicemen to attend night classes. I have received requests and complaints from them regarding technical classes to be made available to them in the evenings. They would like to improve themselves in technical education so that they can have better opportunities.

4.00 p.m.

But when they applied for permission, their applications were turned down. The reason is that if they want to attend such technical classes they have to sign on for a further service of three years. It is because of this condition which they are not prepared to accept that they are denied the opportunity to seek further training in technical education. This is a pity.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I appreciate that at the present stage of our industrial development we need more and more trained technical personnel. Therefore, those national servicemen who are interested and who have the capacity to learn and benefit from technical education should be given every encouragement and opportunity to improve themselves. Too stringent conditions should not be imposed on them if we are to assist them in furthering their training in technical education. After having completed their national service, they will be able to join the ranks of our industrial workers.

Secondly, Sir, there is the question of the call-up of brothers. I have received complaints from certain families, each with two or three sons, that their boys were called up for national service at the same time of the year. This has caused great inconvenience and financial hardship to them. The call-up for such cases should be staggered. For instance, the second son should not be called up until the first son has completed his national service. I think this is a legitimate request worthy of our consideration. However, such consideration has not always been given. Applications had been made but they were turned down most of the time. I would like the Minister concerned to consider such applications sympathetically particularly those cases where the boys are contributing to the maintenance of the family.

Thirdly, there is the question of allocation of duties for national service trainees. I have received complaints that, after three months of basic training, some of the trainees have been posted to the wrong units. Trainees who are physically weak are posted to the Combat Division or the Artillery Division, and those inexperienced in driving are given driving duties or are forced to learn driving. This inappropriate allocation of duties has given rise to discontent among parents. A lot of traffic accidents have resulted from this situation. I would like the Minister concerned to look into the matter to ensure that responsible officers will be detailed to properly allocate duties for the national servicemen.

Fourthly, Sir, the question of recreational and cultural activities. I am glad to say that two years ago in this House when I suggested that there should be more recreational and cultural activities among the national servicemen, the Minister agreed to this suggestion. In the camps now cultural and recreational activities are conducted from time to time so that the national servicemen can have proper recreation after their training and during their leisure hours.

In January this year I was invited to attend an evening function at the Changi Camp. I noticed that some of the national servicemen were quite talented. But some of the items in the programme were contributed by artistes from outside. I do not think this is appropriate because the songs they sang were not very healthy. For example, one of them sang a song entitled. "We should not pluck a wild flower by the road side." This type of song should not be introduced to the national servicemen during a cultural show. I think all programmes should be properly conducted and organised by the recreational and cultural units in the various camps. If artistes are to be invited from outside, they should come from healthy cultural organisations or choirs.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, for a long time there have been no statements regarding international agreements. May I know the state of the defence agreements, and to what extent will they involve our Singapore Armed Forces?

It is known that Australia had pulled out quite a number of its troops from Singapore. I wonder how effective are the ANZUK forces at the moment, and what is the extent of its future plans, in terms of defence training and common interest?

Sir, I would also like to touch upon the intake of national servicemen. What is the present procedure for the call-up of national servicemen? I raise this question because I have observed that there are many potential boys who are eligible and are eagerly awaiting for the Central Manpower Base to call them up. And there are others who are still lingering on the streets and who may also be called up. On the other hand there are many who are hoping for a postponement for a couple of years due to some reasons, but they are the ones to be called in first.

I also understand that food supplied to the national servicemen is being wasted. This could probably be due either to poor quality or to the fact that some of the well-to-do boys could not be bothered about the army food. Could the Minister say something on this?

Sir, I heard that at present there is a lack of understanding between officers and senior NCOs in the army. Discipline to a certain extent has been affected. Could more power be given to senior NCOs and corporals to deal with their subordinates? The NCOs should be given opportunity to lead and train their men. This will help them in times of crisis if the officers are being pinned down. Furthermore, I observe that there are inadequate recreational facilities in some camps for these young men. Could something be done to help the men?

Recently, it was reported in the press that the army would assist with its helicopter services to fight against fire in high-rise buildings. Could the same services be extended to the Police Force to help them fight against crime?

Mr Ivan Baptist: Mr Speaker, Sir, the expenditure for Defence keeps going up from year to year. We are spending much more money every year. From time to time I have been wondering why we need to increase our Defence expenditure when, in actual fact, we have friendly neighbours around us. Is it necessary for us to increase our Defence expenditure, when the money could be utilised in many other ways to promote better relationship among the citizens in Singapore? Bigger countries in the world today are lessening their expenditure on defence, but a small nation like ours keeps on increasing it as the years go by.

The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defence (Dr Goh Keng Swee): Mr Speaker, Sir, I will deal with the various points which have been raised by Members. First, the Member for Sembawang. He has recommended that soldiers be put to productive work, such as the rearing of poultry and pigs and the growing of vegetables. He is under the assumption that soldiers have nothing to do. Actually they have a very heavy training programme. When they finish their basic training, they go on to training at platoon level, so much so that their working hours are much more than the normal working hours of civilians. For instance, they have to do night training three times a week. So how are they to get time off to rear pigs and poultry?

Now, as for night classes, he said he has received representations from national servicemen who want to improve themselves by attending night classes so that they can upgrade their technological skills. He is under the impression that when these requests are made, they are often turned down. Actually he is right there. At one time we used to give the battalion commander the authority to decide whether or not to release soldiers for night classes. Of course, it is very admirable of young men to want to improve themselves by attending night classes. However, the number grew bigger and bigger, and we decided to make a check on what was happening. We found that most of them were having a glorious time. Most of those who attended these classes did not pass their examinations. Of course, there were many who never attended any classes at all! The system now is that any soldier who wants to take time-off at night to attend technical education courses will have to apply formally. Their applications will be examined and scrutinised by the Technical Department of Logistics Division. If it is a genuine case, the applicant not only gets time-off but MINDEF subsidises his fees and provides him with books. That is the present system. If it is a genuine case, he gets it. If it is not, as in the case of those national servicemen who had gone to see the Member for Sembawang, they are rejected, and quite rightly so.

Now, he also wants brothers to be treated kindly, i.e, if there are several brothers in the family, then they should not be conscripted together. I do not see the logic of it. The principle is this. Whether or not he has brothers serving in the Army, is not a relevant point. The point is, if by taking a young man out from whatever he is doing and putting him in uniform to do his national service, this results in hardship for the family, such cases are considered by an Appeals Committee. And if facts are established that genuine hardship arises, the Appeals Committee invariably allows the appeal. Indeed, each year we have about 300 to 500 appeals approved by the Appeals Committee. So there is machinery for considering this kind of situation.

As regards the posting of servicemen to vocations, there are vocations which nobody likes to do. Cooking is one of them. Driving is another. The life of an army driver is a very hard one. He is among the first to get up in the morning and the last to go to sleep, because he has got to clean the trucks before he is finished for the day. Here again, I urge the Member for Sembawang to bear this in mind: by all means listen to their grouses with great sympathy, but do not always be taken in.

4.15 p.m.

As regards the music and drama show which he attended, he complains that certain songs sung by foreign song-stresses should not have been allowed. There are two points of view on this. One is that of the Member for Sembawang, and the other is that of the soldiers who listened to these songs. And as he would bear testimony, the songs he complained of received the loudest applause.

The Member for Anson claims that there is a waste of food. I am not going to deny that there is waste of food in any of the battalion camps. But I do ask him to supply me with details of what wastes there are, and when and where, because we are fairly stringent about this. We have inspectors to go round from camp to camp, and we are keeping this subject under very close supervision. Any information he gives about waste of food in any particular camp will be studied and action will be taken.

As regards inadequate recreational facilities that the Member complains of, I am afraid he has grounds for this. I am not going to say that we have adequate recreational facilities in all our camps. In fact, the standard of recreational facilities in all battalion camps is inadequate. But that is the way it is. How are we going to have a swimming pool for each battalion camp? How are we going to have football fields? All these cost money. The Member for Potong Pasir is complaining that we are spending too much on defence. But I will deal with that point later.

On the question of helicopters to fight crimes, I think the Member for Anson is an ardent reader of detective comic strips. I do not see how helicopters can be used to fight crime. Helicopters are very expensive and a dangerous form of transportation. It is not to be recommended other than in real cases of dire necessity.

The Member for Potong Pasir asks: why not decrease the defence expenditure? Why are we spending so much? No one wants to spend money on defence, neither I myself nor Members here. Unfortunately, these are what one statistician, studying categories of Government expenditure, calls "regrettable necessities". If the Member for Potong Pasir has studied the figures closely, he will have noticed that the increase in defence expenditure is the smallest of all the Ministries. The increase in this financial year asked by my Ministry comes to rather less than 2� per cent as against some 10 to 15 per cent increase in the general run of Ministries.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has not answered two of my questions: one regarding the Australian pull-out from the ANZUK forces and the other on the power given to the NCOs to control their men.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, I did not say anything about the ANZUK forces because I did not understand what the Member was saying!

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I was saying that Australia had pulled out quite a number of its troops from Singapore. I wonder how effective the ANZUK forces is at the moment, and to what extent are its future plans in terms of defence training and common interest?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I think the Member for Anson should address his question to the ANZUK Commander! ANZUK does not come under me. Seriously speaking, ANZUK is rethinking the whole position, and no doubt they will come up with new plans in course of time.

About the NCOs, here again I must ask the Member for Anson's pardon if I did not get him right. He says that senior NCOs have not been given adequate powers. I am not quite sure what he means by that.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: They cannot control the privates. If they have more powers, then they can control them. Otherwise there will be no discipline.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: I think I understand what the Member for Anson is trying to get at. What happened was in the past NCOs, mostly national service corporals, in their exasperation against recruits who kept on making the same mistakes or not obeying orders or whatever it was, took upon themselves to inflict punishment of various kinds, many of which were contrary to the regulations. So it was made very clear to them that if they continued to inflict illegal forms of punishment on soldiers under their command, they would be court martialled. And they were accordingly court martialled and sternly punished, as I think they should. But that does not mean that the NCOs do not have powers to inflict punishment. Punishment must be meted out according to the rules and regulations.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, before I withdraw my amendment I have a question to ask the Minister. This relates to our national servicemen and national consciousness. I feel that this is a long-term question which cannot be resolved easily within a short time, and the Minister has been paying much attention to this problem of national consciousness and patriotism of our national servicemen. Thus if our national servicemen do not have a strong sense of nationalism and patriotism, how can we expect them to sacrifice for the country or to serve the country? What is their position now in respect of national consciousness and patriotism? Of course, generally speaking, they are quite good in this respect. They obey their superior's orders and they abide by the regulations. But what are they internally in their own personal feelings and consciousness? It seems that they have not acquired a strong sense of nationalism or patriotism. This could be assessed from their conversation. Once I visited their barracks and some soldiers were talking to their officers who were mainly pre-University or University students. From the talk I gathered the impression that they are most concerned as to whether their studies will be affected after their discharge from national service. They are concerned about their future prospects after their period of training. They are more concerned with their personal problems than with their contribution, if any, to nation building or defence. Of course, this shows that the content of the training courses lacks the inculcation of national consciousness in the minds of our national servicemen. We should inculcate in them a sense of citizenship and other good points and virtues in order to make them good soldiers.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, the Member for Sembawang brought up what seems to me a very important point which indeed may constitute a serious weakness in the Army, that is, the spirit of national consciousness, the willingness to take up arms on behalf of your country. However, if he believes that this is something that Army commanders can bring about in two years, he is asking for something quite impossible. I have discussed this matter with Army commanders, and they say that this is something they expect to be cultivated in schools, in homes and indeed in general society. If we get a situation where a young man turning up in the Army knows nothing about these matters and believes that what matters most is his own personal interest, there is very little that we can do in two years to change that kind of attitude. We cannot brainwash soldiers in two years' time.

We did an interesting experiment in May last year. I invited six or seven Members of Parliament taking turns to visit various battalion camps and training institutions. Those who took part remember their experiences very well. The idea, first, was to give the MPs -many of them were young MPs - a chance to see the soldiers and get the feel of their attitudes, how they are taking to national service, what their problems are, and that sort of thing. That is for the MPs to get to know the Army. The other part of the exercise is for the MPs to tell the soldiers just what the Member for Sembawang has been saying, that is, the importance of their work, the need to defend the nation, patriotism, and so on and so forth. I paid a great deal of attention to this exercise and had it closely documented. After a month the MPs and myself came to the conclusion that it was not a very profitable exercise. The soldiers asked all kinds of questions which the MPs consider quite trivial, like too many guard duties, no time-off, eggs not properly cooked, lavatories out of order, and so on.

As for the impact of the MPs on the soldiers, I am afraid my officers were rather polite. Those who recorded the effect of the exchanges said that the MPs were very sincere and very eloquent. But they did not know what effect they had on the soldiers. However, if the Member for Sembawang feels very strongly about this, perhaps we can arrange for him to be in a road show some time so that he can give a talk to the soldiers. But I must warn him that the audience of soldiers will be in darkness. The stage is well lighted, and if they do not like it, then they will show their dislike very audibly.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I thank the Minister for his detailed answers to my various questions. At the same time, I believe that the Minister and the officers under him are all trying their best to improve the consciousness of our national servicemen to become patriotic soldiers and to become good citizens also.

I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Tay Boon Too --

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head DA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 2010.

The Chairman: Mr Tay, amendment (2).

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): I am not moving, Sir.

4.30 p.m.

Mr J. F. Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head DA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 2902.

I have one or two points to raise, Sir,I hope you will be a little indulgent as you were in the case of the Prime Minister's Head of Expenditure. The first relates to the People's Defence Force. I believe that the PDF is now only a small force, consisting of almost as many officers and senior NCOs as there are men. I have been told that the PDF is a sort of a descendant of the SVC, the Singapore Volunteer Corps of which I believe our respected Minister of Defence was himself a member. Many well-known Singaporeans, including a few of our senior military officers, are proud of their connections with the volunteers. We have a full-fledged military establishment based principally on national service but there are those who are asking what is happening to the PDF. The SVC has given us some interesting traditions of volunteer military service, and I wonder whether the Minister could say something that might resolve the ambiguous situation that prevails at the moment.

The next point relates to the accident that recently happened at SAFTI, when people were killed and injured. I wonder whether the Minister would like to say a little bit more about this accident, if he has the time, of course -- whether there is any fault that may be attributed to people or agency so that further additional precautionary measures can be taken to ensure greater insurance against such accidents.

Finally, Sir, I would like to refer to the road show, not necessarily the one which the Member for Sembawang had a look at. Personally I was extremely impressed by what I saw. I could not understand what those actresses were singing, but the part which I saw and understood I appreciated profoundly. I might mention particularly the humorous sketches. I think they are of a quality that may be appropriate for presentation over our television. Some of the jokes are somewhat earthy, but I am sure our civilian population will be able to take them. I was rather struck by the originality of the satire and the wit. I would imagine that the presentation of such humorous sketches over TV would also serve to introduce parents to some of the situations which our young servicemen encounter and deal with, perhaps in very characteristic fashion when inducted into national service.

At the road show I was also struck by the vibrant way in which the English language was used, and by the rich new coinages the SAF are contributing to the English language. Let me give a few examples, Mr Speaker, Sir. The word khoon means sleep, as in the sentence, "Hey, soldier, you are good at khooning even with your eyes open, huh!" The word gabra means a fumbler; a skiver is a person who specialises in getting off the hook, one who is not willing to do the job, or one who sticks to the same universal army principle of never-volunteering. Maybe that might affect the Minister's reply when he talks about the PDF! Then we have the frequent use of the word sabo, which means, to undermine another person's status. I would suggest that we encourage some of our young research lecturers at the University's Department of English to look a little bit more closely into this very healthy contribution of the SAF to the development of the English language in Singapore.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: In the PDF there are two battalions, the 10th and 15th. The 15th will be closed down by the SAF, and the men transferred to the 10th Battalion. I hope the volunteering tradition will continue, and I agree with a lot of what the Member has said.

As regards the SAFTI accident, a Board of Inquiry has been set up and it has just completed its findings. A full statement will be made shortly on this tragic episode. Briefly, the Board found that the most likely cause of the accident was a defect in the fuse of the mortar bomb.

As regards the comic sketches, I am glad the Member enjoyed it. I hope he will be welcome to attend all future road shows.

As regards the SAF English, he will be interested to know that the Personnel Research Department of Manpower Division, MINDEF, is compiling a glossary of SAF English jargon.

Mr Conceicao: I am very happy with the Minister's reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $487,489,450 for Head DA ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $43,300,000 for Head DA ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head EA --

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head EA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1003.

Sir, as I have another amendment* under the same Head, may I seek your permission to speak on it, as it will be easier for the Minister to answer?

• The same amendment reads as follows:

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head EA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 2902.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister once mentioned about making Singapore the brain centre. In this respect, what is being done about it? Singapore is fast becoming an international centre for many things. We only hope that in this all-important matter the Government will try to expedite movement towards international standards. I would like to know how much of the main scientific facilities are available in the Republic. I would also like to know how effective is the Science Centre at Jurong. Is it being fully utilized?

Mr Speaker, Sir, it has been some time now since metrication was introduced. We welcome this attempt and praise the Government for its good efforts. I observe that many people still do not know how to convert, though there is a conversion table in every shop. It would appear that the people are slow to use it. The metrication campaign should be revitalised to see its effects truly felt. Even the kilometre signs on the road are hardly noticed by the people, though they are prominently placed. This campaign should be continued with better force and effect. Have new equipments been provided for the purpose? How far has metrication been introduced in markets and provision stores? We still find the people and shopkeepers trading with the imperial system, for example, rice is being dealt in katis, sugar in pounds, etc. How far has the daching been eliminated in the markets, as there have been reports of a lot of manipulation of the instruments? Has the Minister thought of introducing any other reliable instruments with metric markings which would be easier to work on?

The Minister for Science and Technology (Dr Toh Chin Chye): Mr Speaker, Sir, our work in developing Singapore as a brain centre is progressing very smoothly. If we have not been talking a lot about our work, it is not because our brains have been resting or sleeping, but because our brains have been doing a lot of thinking and planning. It is quite true that Singapore will have to live on its ability to export soft-ware and hard-ware services, and we do this through education in post-secondary schools and in the universities. This is one reason why my Ministry is working very closely with the universities, together with the Polytechnic and the Ministry of Education, in developing courses of study which will be of relevance and use to the young people of Singapore.

The Member for Anson has a misconception about the use of the Science Centre which is coming up in Jurong. The Science Centre essentially will stimulate young students and adults to be able to read a little more about the application of scientific principles in technology. It is due to be completed in 1975. Currently, we are busy collecting exhibits from various industrial firms which will be shown at this Centre. There is no central scientific facility in Singapore. Our facilities are scattered in many branches and divisions of Government Ministries, and it is not possible for me to tell the Member whether the scientific facilities in Singapore are being fully utilised.

With regard to metrication, the strategy for 1974 is to introduce it at market level, that is, among consumers. To-date, most Government departments and statutory bodies have already completed the first phase of metrication, and we are now aiming at mass consumers. If the Member for Anson had been to Toa Payoh on Saturday night, he would have seen me and officials of the Metrication Board trying to encourage the illiterate constituents in Toa Payoh to use the metric system. I do admit, together with the Member for Anson, that many people are still not very conscious of the metric system. But if the Member for Anson can tell me whether one pound of mutton is cheaper than one kati of it, or why he prefers to buy a metre of sari to a yard of sari for his wife, which is cheaper, then I will be able to answer him how widespread metrication is.

Be rest assured that my Ministry is doing its very best to try to standardise the weights and measures, but we cannot avoid manipulation, whether we use the imperial weights and measures or the metric system. Currently, the Metrication Board is discussing with a number of daching manufacturers, so that they will be able to use the daching and yet use the metric system. The experiment is now in progress and, when completed, we will go out to the market and tell the hawkers how to sell in grams and kilograms.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: In view of the explanation of the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $2,159,460 for Head EA ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $36,900,000 for Head EA ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Order. I propose to take the Suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting now and will take the Chair again at 5.15 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.45 p.m. until 5.15 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.15 p.m.