MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1974 TO 31ST MARCH, 1975

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Head KB --

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy

Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1107*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Haji Mohd. Ariff and Mr P. Govindaswamy.)

Sir, it cannot be denied that the Social Welfare Department has done a great deal in looking after the under-privileged and the unfortunate people in Singapore. The Social Welfare Department has given care and comfort to the poor and the sick in Singapore. It has always been the policy of the Singapore Government to look after the poor people. But at the moment because of the rising cost of living resulting from spiralling inflation, many people are suffering in Singapore because of the high cost of daily necessities such as rice, food, sugar and other items. In addition, the costs of other items such as rent, water and electricity have also gone up. So, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, judging from the present situation, I am afraid that the present public assistance granted to the poor people is inadequate. The meagre sum granted under the public assistance scheme is too little for the livelihood of the poor family. May I therefore request the Minister to reconsider revising the rates of public assistance so that the poor people on public assistance can be better looked after, in the face of the rising cost of living?

Secondly, I would like to ask the Minister to answer this question: how much has been granted by way of public assistance to the needy people in Singapore?

Thirdly, I would like to ask the Minister whether there is any plan or scheme to set up a home for the handicapped children?

The Chairman: Haji Mohd. Ariff is not here.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, what is the guideline used by the Social Welfare Department in the issue of permits for the purpose of entertaining inmates of welfare homes? During festive occasions permits are granted to certain organisations to entertain inmates, while certain other organisations are refused, without any reason being given. Since the inmates are being entertained with food, cash, etc., why refuse these organisations from doing their bit during such occasions?

There was a report in the press about old inmates in a certain home run by a Buddhist monk. The home, if it can be called one, is in an old condition and the monk stated that the Social Welfare Department had refused to give a helping hand. Why is this so? Does it require publicity in the press before the Social Welfare Department acts, or does the Department think that our old citizens are unproductive to the Republic and, therefore, should be treated as "embarrassing liabilities"?

Sir, I would also like to know how much pocket money are the inmates receiving as welfare aid. Is it sufficient to meet their expenditure at this moment?

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, may I seek your permission to discuss, under the present subhead, an item for which I have already tabled an amendment? My amendment* is on Head KB, Social Welfare, subhead AB 3001, regarding the Home for Destitute Persons. In view of the line of discussion, I thought if I were to speak now it would be easier for the Minister concerned to reply.

• The amendment reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AB 3001.

The Chairman: All right.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Thank you, Sir. With reference to the care of the old and chronic sick, I would like to find out from the Minister what facilities as provided by the Government are available for the care of the old and the chronic sick in Singapore. I would also be appreciative if he could inform us whether the facilities available are sufficient to meet the present needs of Singapore. If, in his opinion, the facilities are inadequate, what would be the Government's policy towards the care of these old and chronic sick people?

Secondly, with reference to the question posed by the Member for Anson regarding the temple mentioned in the local press on the 17th March this year, what steps would the Government take towards the supervision and control of establishments, such as that temple in question, which purportedly take care of the old and aged sick? It is common knowledge that there are in existence in Singapore a good number of such places which are neither licensed nor under the supervision of either the Ministry of Social Affairs, or the Council of Social Services. This temple in question has, in fact, been usurping its name by charging its inmates from $50 to $180 per head. I think there is a case for the Ministry to step in to regulate and, if possible, supervise its activities. At the same time, it should also supervise the provisions for the care of such people.

6.30 p.m.

I shall now go on to a second topic with regard to grants or subventions to voluntary charitable organisations. May I ask the Minister what is the present Government policy in deciding grants to voluntary welfare organisations? It is well-known that no formula is used by the Ministry of Social Affairs with regard to the provision of voluntary grants to welfare organisations. Would the Ministry consider setting up a standard formula in granting aids to these voluntary organisations? A standard formula has been utilised in some countries, for example, Hong Kong, Japan and Australia, to good purpose.

On the topic of a committee to review aid to voluntary organisations, I understand that a committee was set up by the Government last year to review grants to voluntary organisations. I was surprised to learn that the Singapore Council of Social Services which is, in fact, a statutory body concerned with matters relating to voluntary charitable organisations, was not consulted on this matter, and neither was it asked to sit on this committee. I would like, if possible, to find out the reason for its exclusion.

Lastly, on the matter of public assistance, I think there are grounds today for us to ask the Ministry to reconsider the rates of public assistance. I know that this is an issue on which the Government has very definite ideas. We do not wish to encourage people to be passengers but, at the same time, we must realise that the cost of living has spiralled significantly over the last year. I can show Members concerned here that the public assistance scheme is certainly far below what can really provide for a subsistence level for the recipients.

What I seek to find out is really this. Would the Ministry of Social Affairs consider a readjustment in the means test? This would, therefore, give incentive to a member or members of a family under welfare aid. We know that a family under public assistance can receive no more than $70 and another family under tuberculosis assistance not more than $120. If we were to stick to the means test under the present scheme, then if a member under the public assistance scheme were to come home with a salary of $120, in effect, he will be receiving only $10 from public assistance. This is no incentive at all for anyone in a family to go out and work in order to increase the family income. The same can be said for those under tuberculosis assistance. I am quite willing to provide details of such cases. My intention is that in readjusting the means test we can, with the present inflation and high cost of living, also provide these poor and needy people with incentive to work.

Encik Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, can I speak on my amendment on Head KB, subhead AD 1201*?

• The amendment reads as follows:

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AD 1201.

The Chairman: Yes.

Encik Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Sir, I support the proposal by the Member for Sembawang. In view of the present situation where prices of food have increased sharply, there is a wide gap between the haves and the have-nots. The poor people are experiencing hardship under the pressures of inflation. They are now in a sorry condition and they need public assistance. They are suffering in silence. Yet the Government has not considered whether or not to increase the public assistance. The workers have so far received two salary increases, first, the 9 per cent wage supplement as recommended by the NWC and, second, the $25 interim wage supplement. But what about the people who depend on public assistance from the Social Welfare Department? Should they also not be given an increase in public assistance?

Mr Lee Yiok Seng (Bukit Panjang): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would also like to add my views on this subject. First of all, let mc say that I agree very much with what has been said by the Member for Kim Seng, and that is, that care for the aged and the sick, as is being given now, is not enough. In my view, it is not enough because I found that certain aged people who need certain care are not given proper care or accommodation as in the home for the aged. In this respect I feel the Government should remedy the situation. We all agree that the cost of living is now increasing. Everybody is hoping that members of a family will be able to get a job and earn some money to supplement the family expenditure. But unfortunately if there is one aged member in the family who needs particular care, and if the Government cannot look after such people, then can it be taken as a loss of income to the family concerned? From what I have seen of the various homes for the aged, the facilities there are very poor and their conditions are not hygienic. Whatever views I may have of these homes, T hope the Government would not overlook them.

On the question of food for the aged, I feel that they do not have proper food. From what I have seen at the homes for the aged, the food provided cost no more than Si per day for each person. At a time when prices of food are so high, T feel that the amount of food provided is really too little. So in line with what the other Members have said, I would like to ask the Minister for Social Affairs to give us a definite answer as to whether at this moment he is considering any steps to remedy what needs to be remedied to improve their situation.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, just now I heard various colleagues of mine appealing to the Minister for Social Affairs to increase the aid to the aged who are without any proper care. I very much agree with this view. However, I feel that the customary practice of providing aid to the aged is not the final solution in the long-term. I believe that the Government should try to seek other avenues. For instance, Government can look for certain light jobs for the aged so as to help them to be productive. In this way these aged people will find that not only are they occupied but they are also useful to the society. Therefore, they will not be a parasite to society.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong (Kim Keat): Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to echo some of the comments and observations which have been made by previous speakers. I think the facilities and provisions in these institutions definitely need to be improved. As mentioned by previous speakers, the amount of public assistance given is very inadequate in view of the rapid economic development and high cost of living. Unless these facilities are improved and the subsistence allowances are also proportionately increased, I am sure the Minister will agree that eventually our society will have to pay more for the present neglect.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not agree with the Member for Bras Basah in describing the aged, who are without care, as social parasites, because there is a Chinese saying that we should give due respect to the aged and befriend the childless and look after them. As we all know, these aged people do not have anyone to support them. We must, therefore, respect them and put them in the home for the aged. This is one way of showing our esteem and respect for them. To apply the term "social parasite" to these aged people is, therefore, improper.

However, I share the sentiments expressed by the Member just now, when he said that the amount of public assistance to such people should he increased because they are in dire need. They would not try to fool the Government into giving them more aid. They are in actual need of more financial assistance. The present amount of assistance is merely a pittance to them and is only enough to keep them on a bare level of subsistence. It can neither fill their stomachs nor starve them to death. We should therefore increase the amount of public assistance in the present state of inflation.

6.45 p.m.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to make a clarification. By "parasites", I do not mean the aged people who are without care are parasites. I was referring to certain able-bodied young people with good physique and good health. Such young people can actually take up various kinds of work in our society. But they are lazy, and do not want to take up proper jobs. They only want to receive public assistance. So my description is to apply to this kind of people.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, all these speeches by Members have deeply touched our hearts. We definitely share the deep concern of Members. But one principal guideline that we must know is that public assistance is meant to assist and not to be sufficient. However, for the less fortunate citizen who has to depend on public assistance given by the Social Welfare Department, in view of the present inflationary condition in Singapore, my Ministry is now exploring the possibility of an upward revision of the public assistance rates -

An hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chan Chee Seng: - even though it has been increased as recent as January last year. As an interim measure, we are now looking into the problem of giving further assistance to 7,042 public assistance cases to help them cope with the rising cost of living. A study is being undertaken to see in what way we can increase the family income by finding employment for the recipient himself or for members of his family. Consideration will be given to provide some form of assistance, if necessary, for those who because of their age and incapacity are unfit for employment, including the very old. Members of Parliament may rest assured that everything possible will be done to alleviate the hardship experienced by those people as a result of the rise in prices of essential goods.

Sir, regarding the guideline and permit for entertainment of inmates of welfare homes of the Social Welfare Department, no permit is issued for purposes of visiting and entertaining inmates of welfare homes by community groups. What community groups are required to do, if they wish to visit a creche or a certain home, is to contact the Social Welfare Department for permission, not a permit, to do so. Normally such permission is readily granted. It is the policy of the department to welcome and encourage more people to visit the welfare homes to bring cheer to the inmates. The department has not refused any organisation a visit to the welfare homes, except in circumstances where such visits would embarrass the inmates of a particular home or upset law and order in the home.

Proposed visits that might have been refused by the department would be visits by young males with long hair to a girls' home, or male visitors whose intention to visit a girls' home for ex-prostitutes was doubtful. In other circumstances, a proposed visit to entertain only a particular ethnic or racial group within a home has been discouraged, as such acts of discrimination or favouritism could upset the law and order in the homes which have many inmates of other races. Entertainment for the inmates of the homes should not be confined to any particular racial group because we cater for all the inmates in the homes. Examples of such cross-sectional entertainment are a grand dinner recently given by a commercial organisation to all the inmates of the Woodlands Home for the Aged and an annual Chinese New Year party when all inmates, irrespective of race or ethnic group, were entertained together. The Government welcomes welfare service by community groups but not racialist welfare.

On the question of the particular old people's home, I assume the Member is referring to the Poh Thong See Buddhist Old People's Home in Aljunied Road. I must say that the Social Welfare Department has never refused to give a helping hand to the inmates of this particular Home, as alleged by a Member. On the contrary, I am satisfied that our Social Welfare Department has in the past done all it can to help the inmates of this particular Home. Out of the 80 inmates of the Home, 51 are paying cases, i.e, they are financially supported by their own relatives and dependants who pay monthly maintenance charges ranging from $60 to $180 per head to the monk in charge. The department has been helping the remaining cases, which are eligible, with public assistance allowances ranging from $28 to $50 per month and with other forms of help wherever possible.

It is wrong to assume that the Social Welfare Department only acts after publicity is given in the press of any such stories. In fact, long before publicity was made in the press on this particular Home, the Social Welfare Department has during the past years been giving assistance to this Home in its usual quiet and unannounced manner. Every month Social Welfare officers visit this Home. The department has been consulting the relevant authorities on ways and means to improve the condition of living of the inmates. It has even gone out of its way to get voluntary social workers interested in this Home to give a helping hand. In fact, before publicity was given in the press, the department consulted the Singapore Council of Social Services, which is the co-ordinating body for such private voluntary welfare organisations, and the Ministry on the possible need to make alternative arrangements for eventual placement of the old inmates.

The report that the monk is running the home single-handed is not true, as he has employed seven workers to attend to the needs of the old inmates and to keep the place clean and tidy. The recent outburst of publicity after so many years of the Home's existence is probably due to the realisation by the monk in charge that the Home is in its last few months of existence, in view of the forthcoming acquisition of the land for urban renewal purposes. Because of the imminent closure of this Home, the Ministry of Social Affairs has recently issued a press statement advising members of the public, who wish to make voluntary donations to this Home, to send their donations to the Singapore Council of Social Services indicating that the money should be used for the benefit of the old people of this Home.

Sir, regarding the question of pocket money for the inmates of our homes, I have explained earlier that the majority of the inmates in the homes are paying cases, financially supported by their relatives. The remaining cases as clarified earlier are being looked after by the department under its public assistance scheme, and they are paid whatever allowance that they are eligible for, each case depending on its own merit. It must be appreciated that the Poh Thong Sec Buddhist Old People's Home is a private home run on a commercial basis, and it is not the general practice of the Government to give pocket money to the inmates of such private homes of which there are several in Singapore.

The Member for Kim Seng has asked about the inclusion of the Singapore Council of Social Services in the committee for revision of grants for all the voluntary organisations. I would like to make this clear - the Singapore Council of Social Services is, in fact, a recipient of the grant. So it is quite unwise to put the Singapore Council of Social Services on the committee.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I have requested the inclusion of the Singapore Council of Social Services on the special committee to look into Government grants to various charitable organisations. The Parliamentary Secretary has put the role of the Council very well by calling it a co-ordinating body. The Council itself, if it is a recipient, is not, I think what its name implies. It is not a recipient in the same nature as another society like the Society for Aid to the Paralysed, because the Council itself is a co-ordinating body, i.e, a body that is responsible for co-ordinating the activities of various voluntary organisations doing welfare work. If the Government recognises the role of the Singapore Council of Social Services as that of a co-ordinating body, then on the matter of award of grants or assistance to various such bodies, I think Government should consider including this Council on that committee. This is only a request, and I hope the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will look into this matter.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Sir, if the Singapore Council of Social Services were to be the only parent body in charge of all the voluntary organisations, then it is all right to include it on the committee to review aid to voluntary organisations. But there are many other organisations which do not come within the scope of the Singapore Council of Social Services. If we include the Council on the committee, then, firstly, it is very difficult for the Council to face its members if the members do not get any aid. Secondly, it is also not easy for the Council to explain its position because of the other organisations which do not come under its scope.

7.00 p.m.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, on a point of clarification. I believe that this committee to review aid to voluntary organisations is in many ways a product of the Ministry of Finance, and it is well-known to Council members that in actual fact even a senior official of the Finance Ministry was surprised to learn that the Singapore Council of Social Services was not included in this committee. I take this opportunity once again to appeal to the Minister to reconsider this matter.

On other matters, Sir, first, I did also touch on the question of available facilities for the care of the aged and chronic sick. I am afraid there was no reply to this question. Secondly, with regard to the question of supervision or legislation to impose some degree of control over standards and facilities provided for by various accredited and non-accredited welfare organisations, we all know that there are a good number of homes that are run by the Government and the standards are good. There are also a number of welfare organisations that are grouped under the Council of Social Services, and the standards are also the minimum at least. But there are also in existence in Singapore a good number of purportedly called "welfare organisations" when they are, in actual fact, money-making organisations. I think something should be done to control these organisations. If we do not move in this direction, I am afraid, that the number of under-privileged old people in our society who are helpless will become subjects of exploitation by these so-called "welfare organisations".

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I entirely agree with the view of the Member that some sort of investigation should be carried out to put things right in respect of such dubious welfare homes. In fact, they are mushrooming in Singapore. Of course, people who do not want to look after their aged relatives find it very convenient to send these old people to such homes. There is no condition attached to those people who send their unwanted relatives to these homes. Aged people who are admitted into our homes have to conform to certain conditions. For example, they must be alone, with no relatives, and must be really poor. But in the case of private welfare homes, some of the inmates can maintain themselves, as the Member himself knows, and they are paying as much as $180 per month. But, I think some sort of investigation should be done on this. In fact, I have discussed this with my officials and we are going to institute an investigation into this to find out how many such homes there are in Singapore. Pending such findings, I cannot say anything more on this.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I wish to thank the Minister for his reassurance.

Mr Seah Mui Kok (Bukit Ho Swee): Sir, sending the old and aged people to such homes is, I think, the modern way of living. All these old people are facing a lot of problems and difficulties. I believe the mentality of the younger generation today is that they prefer to send their aged parents to the various homes. This is a modern way of living which we cannot escape. In view of this, I would strongly urge the Minister for Social Affairs to consider the possibility of a project whereby all old and aged people may be given decent places to live so that they can be well taken care of, especially those who can afford to pay. This is a project where the Minister can give certain consideration.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, as mentioned by the Member, there is such a home now in existence in Singapore, and that is the St. John's Home for the Aged. The capital sum required to build a fairly comfortable accommodation of flats or rooms costs a lot of money. Unless that capital sum is found by the voluntary organisations themselves -not the Government because I do not think the Government can afford to have such homes built for them. I think society has a responsibility towards the aged people in these days. Furthermore, with the announcement made by my colleague, the Minister for Finance, of the $750 tax relief allowance for the caring of aged parents, I hope this incentive will persuade the people to look after their aged relatives and parents, rather than just put them in old people's homes, whether run by the State or by voluntary organisations.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I thank the Minister and the Senior Parliamentary Secretary for their replies, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AC 1201.

Sir, we know that creches for the care of children are essential in an industrialised society, especially when in our present state of industrialisation we are faced with a shortage of labour and are trying to recruit female labour for our factories. More creches should, therefore, be set up in the industrial estates. However, it is one thing to set up more creches, and it is another thing to improve the facilities in these creches. And if the creches are well-provided but the service is not adequate or that it is not up to the expectation of parents, the creches will only be a white elephant.

On an open-house day for the creche in Jurong on 5th November last year, I made two suggestions to improve the creche. The first suggestion was that the creche should lengthen its opening hours. At present the creche is open only up to 5 o'clock. I hope the opening hours can be longer in order to help workers on shift duty, especially those living in Jurong area who work on second shift so that their children will be looked after. Therefore, I think creches should extend their opening hours.

The second suggestion was that transport to the creches should be provided for the children, because during peak hours it is very inconvenient for mothers to carry their children to the creche and then take a bus to the factories. If there is transport to send the children to the creche, this will be most welcome to the parents, and more and more parents will send their children to the creche.

I would also like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister whether he has any intention to set up another creche in Neighbourhood II in Jurong.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, with the new format of presenting the Main and Development Estimates, somehow or other the subhead on Children's Centres and Creches completely escaped me. I must compliment the Member for Potong Pasir for being sharp and pointing this out to me earlier. If all of us exercise some consideration and restraint and speak under the proper subhead, it will make your job easier and so also will it make the Minister's job easier.

I must also compliment the Member for Jurong for touching on most of the points I want to make. I too, like the Member for Jurong, urge that the few creches that we have should organise their activities in such a way that they will cater for the need of mothers who are engaged in shift work. Perhaps the Ministry of Social Affairs in collaboration with the People's Association, should also look into the possibility of utilising to the maximum the facilities and the infrastructure available in the community centres in Singapore and in the creches as well. In places where there are no creches, I believe the community centres could be used as creches in the mornings and even at night.

Another question is: are there any plans to build a creche in Telok Blangah? The Member for Jurong wants two. Good luck to him if he gets them. Telok Blangah is a new town. This is a new complex just coming up, and I think there is the possibility of a need for a creche there because an area there is going to be an industrial estate.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to talk on something about creches. I agree with the Member for Jurong that in industrial estates there should be more creches to cater for the needs of the working mothers so as to encourage them to work in factories. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Ministry of Social Affairs for the wonderful scheme in setting up creches in Singapore. On the 16th of this month I was invited to the opening ceremony of a new creche in Kallang Bahru. I found that the place was very spacious, occupying about 10,000 sq, ft. The facilities were very good and the staff were polite. They are bound to look after the children very well. Therefore, parents can be rest assured when they entrust their children to such staff.

My point is that more creches should be built in the various areas, for example, in Sembawang. Very soon, Sembawang will be developed into an industrial area and I hope the Minister will remember to build a creche there. There should at least be a provision to build a creche in Sembawang.

Mr Seah Mui Kok: Sir, I fully support the views expressed by the Members for Jurong and Telok Blangah with regard to the building of creches. I think it is important that employers, especially those investors who run factories, must themselves play an important part. If they want employees to work in their factories, it is high time they built small creches in their various factories. If I am not mistaken, they have such facilities in Japan. So it is high time they did something about it.

Mr Phey Yew Kok (Boon Teck): Sir, I rise to support all those Members who praised the establishment of creches. I should say that wider publicity should be given by the Ministry to encourage the women to leave their children in the creches and go to work. At the moment the hours for mothers to put the children in the creches are very unrealistic. I should say that it caters purely for the majority of office workers or teachers. It is possible that some housewives would want to send their children to these creches so that they could go out to play mahjong. We have to change the hours to suit the shift workers. If we are going to encourage married women with children to work in industrial concerns on shift duty, I think we have to change the opening hours of the creche. Instead of opening at 8 am., it should be 7.30 a.m, so that they can have time to put the children in the creche and go to work.

7.15 p.m.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, in reply to the matters raised by the Member for Jurong. I am glad to say, Sir, that the two suggestions made by him are being looked into by the Social Welfare Department. As for the extension of hours of opening of the creche, the Member may be pleased to know that, though the official closing time of the Jurong Town creche is 5.00 p.m., parents have been allowed to come back to the creche to collect their children as late as 6.30 p.m, or even 7.00 p.m.

Presently, a survey is being conducted to find out ways and means to improve the facilities and services available in the creches. The results and findings of the survey, which include the Jurong Town creche, will determine whether it is feasible to consider an extension of the hours of opening of creches and the service of transporting the children to the creches. However, such extra services can only be carried out if there is sufficient response from the parents, the Social Welfare Department was most disappointed when the extension of creche hours at the Toa Payoh creche met with very poor response. As creche services are very heavily subsidised by the Government, the Member for Jurong will appreciate that unless there is ample response, it will not be feasible to extend the opening hours of the creche for the sake of a handful of children. Furthermore, any provision of transport services for children, if found necessary eventually, will have to be borne by the parents concerned, as the Government is already very heavily subsidising the creche services rendered to each child who attends the creche every day.

The Social Welfare Department has made enquiries from parents using the Jurong Town creche, and learned that only five parents have so far expressed the need for transport for their children. The result of the survey presently being conducted will decide whether the need to provide transport facilities is justified or not. The Social Welfare Department maintains that it would be pointless to arrange for a NTUC van or bus with a capacity of 20 to 30 children to carry just 6 to 8 children who require transport.

As for a second creche in Jurong Town, Sir, he will be pleased to know that the Government is planning, with very close co-operation and assistance of the Jurong Town Corporation, to build one more creche in Jurong Town, most probably in Neighbourhood II. The department is at the moment actively consulting the Jurong Town Corporation on this matter, and it is hoped that this second creche in Jurong Town will materialise soon and will be a boon to the mothers working in Jurong.

On the point raised by the Member for Telok Blangah, Sir, he is right in putting up the need for the establishment of more creches, not only from the point of view of promoting child welfare, but because we must actively encourage more women to take up full-time employment to overcome the shortage of labour. In fact, the Government's policy is to build more creches especially in housing estates, where there is a demand for such facilities. Creches will be established in the major housing estates built by the Housing and Development Board as part of its social services to residents therein and to people either living or working near these estates. As such, there is no necessity to make provision in the Estimates for the building of creches. The normal practice is for the HDB to build creches within the housing estates. Once the creches are built, they are rented out to the Social Welfare Department which will provide the creche service. If there is a demonstrated need for creches to be established outside the housing estate, then provision will be sought in the Estimates for the creche.

The Member may be pleased to know that the Social Welfare Department is now negotiating with the HDB for a new creche to be built in the Telok Blangah New Town. The Government is also planning to establish creches in other Housing and Development Board estates where there is a high concentration of working mothers for the benefit of the Member for Sembawang.

It is not possible, Sir, to use the community centres and their facilities for the running of creches. The Member, I am sure, is well aware of the intensive use of community centre facilities. In any case, creches should be specially designed with special equipment and facilities to cater for very young children, from babies of a few months old to children of six years old.

The Member for Bukit Ho Swee has rightly mentioned, Sir, that private concerns should play a part in making available more creches for the benefit of the workers. This is an area of community welfare in which the private sector, the factories and industrial and business establishments, can play a part, either individually or jointly with others. Commercial and industrial establishments can set up creches, whether big or small, as part of their welfare facilities for their staff. This helps to discourage job-hopping and ensure that investment on the skill given to female employees is not wasted when they stop work just because they have children to look after at home. In my recent visit to factories to encourage the employment of handicapped persons, I raised this question of establishing creches with many employers in the private sector. The response from the employers was encouraging, and some of them have already contacted the Social Welfare Department for assistance in creche planning.

1 would like to thank the Member for Sembawang, Sir, for his compliment on the newly opened creche at Kallang Bahru. In fact, I was told that he was the first person to register his child for admission to the creche.

Regarding the question raised by the Member for Boon Teck, the hours of all creches in Singapore are from 7 a.m, to 6 p.m. I think this is quite fair to both working mothers and mothers who want to play mahjong, as he has put it.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in line with the Government's policy on family planning, does the Minister not think there is a need for these creches to introduce rules saying that for those mothers with more than two children an increased fee will be charged if they send their children to these creches? In this way we can help make family planning more effective. Otherwise if we go on building creches, and they go on giving births, family plan- ning is going to take a downturn, and 1 do not think this is the right way to help our family planning to be more effective.

Mr Phey Yew Kok: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, what I am trying to point out to the Minister is that the creche at this moment purely caters for those who work during normal office hours and not for those who work in a factory running three shifts. For instance, for this month, a shift worker may work in the morning shift, but next month when she is on night shift, she may also want to put her children in the creche. So my request is whether the hours can be lengthened so that those who work in the afternoon shift or in the night shift can also send their children to the creches. At this moment, I should say that the response in Toa Payoh is good. I must compliment the people running the creche, for they are doing a good job. What I would like to say is: can we maximise the use of these creches so that all industrial workers who are married with children can make use of these facilities?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in reply to my remarks the Minister said that there was a survey on the need for transport and that the response was not very good. What I would like to point out to him is that those people who make use of the creche in Jurong Town at present either live near the creche or they may have their own transport arrangements. But those who have transport problems have not been able to send their children to the creche. And I do not know whether there is any response from such people to the survey. I would suggest to the Minister that if at all a survey is to be conducted, it should be a thorough survey covering other people living in the area so as to reflect the actual needs of the people.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I want to thank the Member for Boon Teck for his suggestion. If there is a need for the hours to be extended to include the shift workers, we will certainly consider it.

As for the point raised about transport, we did a very thorough survey into this problem and we found that only five parents require transport. But being a man who is open to suggestions, I will satisfy the Member's curiosity and direct another survey to find out how many people really want such transport service. If the number justifies it, we will have a transport service for the children.

As for the Member for Bras Basah, he has got a point there, Sir,I will bear his suggestion in mind, and when the time is appropriate, I shall then take the necessary action.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (3)* (*See col. 600), Encik Rahmat Kenap has already spoken. Amendment (4), Mr Hwang.

7.30 p.m.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for head KB he reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AG 1201.

Sir, this is an item in respect of the Counselling and Advice Section. From my own experience I have found that this particular section is providing valuable service. I had occasion to refer a large number of cases involving my constituents, to this particular section. The officers have always been able to give useful advice, guidance and assistance. This i5 one area of Government service which, in my opinion, should he further extended by establishing branches in selected localities.

Sir, on going through the Estimates, one gets the impression that for those departments which are not revenue-producing there appears to be a reluctance on the part of Government to expand or to improve upon existing services, even though there may he a need for improvement.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Jalan Kayu has made a constructive suggestion and I would like to thank him for the compliments he has given to the Counselling and Advice Section of the Social Welfare Department. The Social Welfare Department is looking into the possibility of setting up branches not only to give counsel and advice but also to render other aspects of social welfare service so as to make social welfare services more readily accessible to people staying in different parts of Singapore. Whether or not it is possible to decentralise social welfare services will depend on the availability of funds, premises and trained personnel.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: In view of the very satisfactory answer, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao --

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head KB be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AK 1111.

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao is not here. Dr Ong Leong Boon has already spoken on his amendment+ (+see col. 598).

The sum of $9,432,920 for Head KB ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $600,000 for Head KB ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head KC--

The Chairman: Amendment (1)++, Mr N. Govindasamy is not here. Mr P. Govindaswamy.

++ The amendment, standing in the names of Messrs N. Govindasamy, P. Govindaswamy and Hwang Soo Jin, reads as follows:

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head KC be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1109.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head KC be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1109.

Sir, within the last few years, Singapore has experienced some tragic fires. The Robinson fire was the worst, where innocent lives were lost. If sufficient safety precautions had been taken, such a monstrous disaster could not have resulted. But that is the past, and from this single fire, we can learn a lesson. May I ask at this time what compulsory measures have been imposed on large departmental stores where many members of the public patronise, so that we may not experience another "Robinson fire"?

Sir, there have been complaints of cases where the hoses leak and the fire engines arriving late. Surely we cannot boast of an efficient fire service if the hoses leak when connected to the fire engines or to the hydrants. If that is the case, a four-gallon pail of water is a more efficient fire-fighting equipment than a fire engine which comes late and with hoses that leak. What is being done with the fire service to up-date it with modern equipment?

The fire-fighting equipment installed in many establishments serve as very nice decorations in those places. Even though they are there, I wonder whether the Fire Service can insist that all the staff are taught to use the fire-fighting equipment. Nothing is more disastrous than seeing a factory go up in flames, when at the initial stages the flames could have been controlled or stopped from spreading by using the simple fire-fighting equipment installed in the factory.

At this point, may I draw attention to the fact that some of our schools are hardly equipped with any fire-fighting equipment. Even if there are fire extinguishers around, the teachers do not even know how to use them. Do we have to have a disaster on a scale larger than the Robinson fire to prove that there is a lack of fire-fighting service in our schools? I wonder whether this Ministry is co-operating with the Ministry of Education over this matter.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, of late we have read in the press quite a lot about the understaffing position in the Fire Brigade, indicating that they are working only with 60 per cent strength. Despite the limitation in manpower, I must say that they have performed their duties very well.

I believe the turnover rate of staff in the Fire Brigade is also very great, and the main complaint seems to be that the fireman`s salary scale is very poor. It is time that something was done to look into the question of their remuneration. To my mind, the fireman's job carries as much risk as that of a policeman. In the case of the Police, there was the Lee Soo Ann Commission which had ended increments of salaries and In the case of the Fire Brigade are we not going to do something about it? Are we going to step up the recruitment?

Another aspect of the Fire Service is this. I think it was only last week that our attention was drawn to a fairly serious fire in one of the Housing Board flats. I remember watching the incident on television. The building is a fairly low-rise flat, about five storeys high, and the firemen were fighting the fire from a ladder. I wonder what will happen if a fire should occur in a block of flats 20 storeys high. I do not think the ladder is going to reach that height. What about the water pressure? How is it going to reach all the way up to the top? I do not know when was the last time all the Housing Board flats were put under close examination to make sure that the fire-fighting facilities are adequate and that the water pressure is sufficient to go up to the top of the building. I think the highest building in Toa Payoh is more than 20 storeys high.

How about the exits? In the case of private buildings the present requirements for fire-escapes and emergency exits are very stringent. However, in the case of the Housing Board flats, we do not see any fire-escapes at all. What will happen if there should be a fire in a high-rise block of flats in one of our housing estates? What will happen then?

Another point I would like to bring up is the question of modernisation of our equipment. Under the Development Estimates there are provisions for fire tenders. But how up-to-date are these fire tenders? Moreover, are we sending our fire officers abroad to learn more about the latest techniques of fire-fighting? With the tendency for buildings to go higher and higher, there has been a suggestion to make use of helicopters. Are we looking into this matter? There are a hundred and one suggestions one can think of. As the Member for Anson has pointed out earlier on, the Robinson fire has certainly opened our eyes. I think we will be failing in our duty if we do not look into all these areas fairly promptly. I would certainly urge that every attention be paid to the safety of the Housing Board flats. Although I do not have Housing Board flats in my constituency at the moment, I shall have them very soon as they are under construction. Therefore, I feel that this is a matter which concerns me as well.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Fire Brigade has always insisted on a high standard of fire preventive measures in buildings, whether they be private or public buildings or whether the building is a block of Housing Board flats. Previously the Housing Board was responsible for prescribing and enforcing such requirements in their buildings on behalf of the Building Control Division. The recommendations made by the Fire Brigade would ensure that in the event of a fire, protected staircases would be available to facilitate evacuation and that the construction of fire walls would minimise the possibility of a wild fire involving the entire building. All buildings that would be frequented by members of the public are also required to install automatic fire detection systems connected to fire stations, and in-built fire-fighting facilities, such as risers and hose rails, were prescribed for all buildings for the use of firemen in an emergency.

The Member for Anson may wish to know that the Robinsons building which he mentioned was erected in 1910, and it was not built in accordance with the current regulations governing fire protection measures. The fire precautionary measures in Robinsons building were clearly inadequate by present-day standards. The Commission of Inquiry into the Robinson's Fire was satisfied that the building could not have been saved by the time the Fire Brigade was summoned. The fire had been allowed to be nursed in the loft stores without being detected, and the fire-fighting squad was fighting the fire at the wrong location.

With regard to the leaking hoses, the Member may wish to know that a certain amount of leaking was intended in certain types of hoses to saturate the hose jacket and to protect the hoses from catching fire. Both the Commission of Inquiry and my Ministry are satisfied that the Fire Brigade has maintained its forces well.

With regard to the complaint that fire-engines sometimes arrive late, may I point out that these allegations have never been proven. On the contrary, our records show that the Brigade has always responded promptly to fire-calls. Perhaps people in distress are often prone to over-react and exaggerate.

The Member may also wish to know that the Fire Brigade is ready at any time to educate members of the public in fire-fighting and fire prevention. Since the beginning of this year the Brigade has given lectures to youth organisations, welfare homes, Government and quasi-Government bodies and industrial concerns on 13 separate occasions. Approximately 200 school children and industrial workers visited the fire stations and were entertained to a demonstration of fire-drills, fire-fighting and rescue exercises. Through the years the Brigade has been advising the Ministry of Education on fire protection measures in the schools. The Brigade has also planned some programmes on fire education for the schools, which would include lectures, exhibitions, film shows and fire-drills. We hope to implement such programmes during the course of the year.

7.45 p.m.

On the question of whether the equipment for fire-fighting in high-rise buildings is adequate or not, I am happy to affirm that the Brigade is equipped to fight fires in high-rise buildings. The Brigade has a total of 37 modern fire-fighting appliances, 27 of these appliances can each pump 500 to 1,000 gallons of water per minute at a reasonably high pressure. The Brigade is also equipped with two mechanical ladders reaching a maximum height of 100 feet and one hydraulic platform of 65 feet high. The upper floors of high-rise buildings are obviously above the range of this equipment. However, the modern method of extinguishing fires in high-rise buildings is to fight the fires from within. No mechanical ladder in the world is high enough to reach levels above 150 feet or so. Hence, the Fire Brigade has previously insisted on stringent fire protection measures in high-rise buildings. However, this function has been taken over by the Building Control Division under the Ministry of National Development since 1st August, 1973. With effect from 1st April, 1974, all other five regulatory functions, including the licensing of dangerous trades, will be transferred to the same authority, so that henceforth the Fire Brigade will be able to concentrate on fire-fighting.

On the question of use of helicopters, this is being discussed by the Ministry with the Ministry of Defence. The use of helicopters is more for rescue than fighting fires.

Sir, on the question of the shortage of staff in the Singapore Fire Brigade, I am happy to inform the House that the Ministry's negotiation with the Amalgamated Union of Public Employees on the salary revision of the Fire Service has been successfully concluded. I have the new salary scales here but, because of lack of time, I am not able to inform Members of the full details. But if they like, I can circulate it to them for their information. Sir, it is common knowledge that the salaries and conditions of service in the Singapore Fire Brigade are not as attractive as those offered in the private sector. There were few incentives to attract good recruits into the service and the Brigade also found it difficult to retain experienced and promising officers. This was especially so during the past three years when the growth of industrialisation in the Republic created golden opportunities for experienced fire officers to join the private sector as fire and safety officers. Such careers in the industries offered better salaries and were less hazardous than the job of a fire officer in the Singapore Fire Brigade.

The shortage of staff is also due to crimping by the private sector. Last year alone, the Fire Brigade lost one divisional officer, one assistant divisional officer and eight station officers who were top people in the service to the shipyards and petroleum companies. In the public interest, such crimping must cease. The firms should employ new staff instead of taking experienced officers and men from the Brigade. The Brigade would be only too pleased to assist in giving the needed training to them, if necessary. Whatever it is, Sir, it is hoped that with the new salary revision of the Fire Service we will be able to retain our experienced men and attract more candidates of fine calibre into the service.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, the point on fire safety at Housing Board flats is still bothering me because there have been a number of fires in flats. I am just wondering whether the Fire Brigade cannot work together with the Housing and Development Board. The staff of the Fire Brigade would have had some experience. They would have investigated and come to certain conclusions, and perhaps it is about time that they made a thorough survey to find out whether or not the existing facilities in all these flats are, in fact, adequate. What I am particularly concerned are those high-rise buildings. I do appreciate that there are no ladders high enough to go up to the 20th storey and, therefore, fighting a fire in high-rise buildings is to fight it from within. But the point is that if within the building there are no adequate facilities, then how are they going to fight the fire? They cannot fight from without and they cannot fight from within.

On the question of adequate exits, fire escapes and so on, I think none of the Housing Board flats has got emergency fire exits, extra staircase, and so on.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I wish to raise two points. Firstly, the hoses should be checked every now and then. Secondly, when there is a fire, vehicles on the road must make way for the fire-engines, because if there is a traffic jam the fire-engines cannot go through. The Minister should ask the Traffic Police to advise the public to make way for the fire-engines.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, there has been a discussion between my Ministry and the Ministry of National Development on the question of fire safety precautions in Housing Board flats. The Fire Brigade has put up quite a number of suggestions and recommendations which are now being studied by the Ministry of National Development. We have to wait and see what action will be taken by the other side.

On the question raised by the Member for Anson, the hoses are checked and maintained, not every now and then but everyday. But, as I have said, certain types of hoses must be allowed to leak a little so that the hoses are saturated and that keeps them cool and prevent them from getting burnt. In a big fire, the heat is tremendous and some hoses do catch fire.

On the question of traffic jams and the suggestion that drivers should be told that, whenever a fire-engine is answering a call, they should keep to the side and allow the fire-engine to pass through, the fire-engines are equipped with very loud-sounding sirens. Every driver knows that he has to give way to the fire-engine. But if there is a traffic jam, nobody can move and so the fire engine also cannot move.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head KC be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 3001.

Sir, this item is in connection with the setting up of a fire station at Jurong. If my memory serves me right, this allocation has appeared in the Estimates for many years, sometimes more sometimes less. Although we see this allocation many a time in the Estimates the fire station has yet to be built. We can only hear the sound of requests but we cannot see the fire station in existence. Recently, certain factories have been burnt to the ground, and the National Productivity Board itself was nearly burnt down. I feel that the Minister should pay more attention to this question of building a fire station at Jurong. In fact, he should give it top priority and should not postpone it year after year. I would like the Minister to give me an assurance now that the fire station in question will be built within the next financial year, and not postponed again to another year when I will have to raise the matter and so wasting my time as well as his time.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I would like to congratulate the Member for his patience, tolerance and keenness to see that a worthwhile project like the fire station at Jurong is completed to the end, as he has asked this question on several occasions. Sir, the project was unavoidably delayed, first, because funds were not made available by Government, and then because time was required to plan for the station. The Member may wish to know that piling work for the station has now been completed and tenders have been invited for the construction of the fire station. Provided there are no snags in the way, the fire station should be completed by the end of this year and could be operational early in the new year. In the meantime, I would plead with him to he a little more patient.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation and assurance, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $5,545,790 for Head KC ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $1,433,200 for Head KC ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Pursuant to a resolution of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker thereupon left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates of Expendi- ture for the financial year 1st April, 1974 to 31st March, 1975, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.