MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1975 TO 31ST MARCH, 1976

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.40 p.m.

Head O -

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1003.

Sir, the Ministry of Communications has the very onerous task of reorganising our public transport system. The Ministry also has to solve the growing congestion on our roads as well as to streamline our traffic system in line with industrial and commercial developments for the benefit of our people. This is a very important task and I hope the reorganisation of the public transport system will be successful. Sir, I would like to raise three questions. First, it is about the reorganisation of the public transport system, which has already been in operation for two or three years. There has been some progress made but, according to the public, progress has been very slow. The reorganisation includes the introduction of bus lanes, pedestrian walks and the restriction of traffic flow into the CBD. The purpose of these measures is, of course, to improve travel by public transport. Since the reorganisatiop. I would like to know whether there has been any marked or radical improvement.

According to what I hear, improvement has been very slight because at peak hours traffic is still very congested. Moreover, we can see buses break down along the road. The buses also emit obnoxious smoke and the condition inside the bus leaves much room for improvement. In regard to bus lanes and the siting of bus stops there are many shortcomings which need to be remedied. And where the road is too narrow, say, Robinson Road, at about 5.00 p.m, everyday the buses are parked along the bus lane by the tens. In the end, the bus lane is turned into a bus terminal where buses are parked. So you find that all the buses are squeezed together in a queue, one after the other, thus causing congestion of all the other vehicles on the road.

2.45 p.m.

Mr Ng Kah Ting rose -

The Chairman: Is the Member for Sembawang giving way?

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Sir, I am rising on a point of order, and not on a point of clarification.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): No. I am not giving way.

The Chairman: Order. Mr Ng says that-he is rising on a point of order. So the Member for Sembawang has got to give way.

Mr Teong Eng Siong resumed his seat.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I notice that amendment (2)* is to be moved by the Member for Boon Teck. It refers to subhead AAA 1901 "Salaries of staff on loan to Singapore Bus Service Ltd." So what the Member is saying could be discussed under that amendment.

• The amendment reads as follows:-

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $ 10 in respect of subhead AAA 1901.

The Chairman: Mr Teong, are you now talking on the policy of the Minister? -

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Yes. Sir, I am touching on the policy of the Ministry. I was, talking about the situation after the reorganisation.

Of course, the Minister is fully aware of what the position is because there is a committee consisting of Permanent Secretaries from five Ministries who now and then report to the Minister on the progress of the reorganisation. But what I want to say is that the actual progress of the reorganisation has not been very satisfactory. So I would like to ask the Minister whether he has any better measures to improve public transport, and whether the work of reorganisation is going on in accordance with the recommendations of `the White Paper on Reorganisation of Motor Transport Service.

There is another question I would like ask the Minister concerning the- setting up of an undergr6und rail system. Last year, the Minister made' a statement in the House about the Mass Rapid Transit system that was going to be introduced in 1980. including the plan for an underground rail system. What progress has been made in respect of this plan, and whether he can give a detailed account to this House.

The Chairman: Would the Minister like to answer now or would he like to hear a little more from all the other Members?

The Minister for Communications (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it would be better to hear all the Others first so that perhaps my answer could he a general one.

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo.

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker. Sir, last year, the Minister `pledged to alleviate the shocking conditions of the bus transport system in Singapore. I must congratulate the Minister this year, for there has been a tremendous improvement in our mass transport system.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Hear, hear!

Mr P. Govindaswamy: However, there are a few anomalies, which I hope the Minister will do his best to overcome. Certain bus services are very irregular, particularly those serving in the rural areas. As an example, service 190 from Shenton Way to Bukit Merah particularly seems to be completely absent from 6.30 p.m, to 7.30 p.m. What I understand is that bus drivers and conductors running this service go out for their meal breaks during this hour and thus keep the poor commuters waiting.

Furthermore, I understand that some bus drivers use to speed along the road and reach their terminus much' earlier than the scheduled times, and no one questions them for arriving early. I wonder whether the SBS is seriously checking on the scheduled stops at all the bus stops along the route to ensure that the service is being run frequently and efficiently.

The maintenance of buses seems to be rather poor. Even if the engine is m a working condition, is the bus checked to ensure that other service facilities are functioning effectively? There have been instances when windows as well as ventilators cannot be closed during a shower. In these cases it rains not only outside but also inside the buses. On this matter, may I ask the Minister what is the Registry of Vehicles doing about checking the condition of the buses, and how frequently is a bus checked for serviceability? Is a certificate of fitness issued by the ROV for each bus? In this respect, I must say that the Scheme B buses are far better in cleanliness, comfort, courtesy and service to the commuters.

I also observe that at the SBS maintenance centres, the spare parts are left all over the place. This encourages theft as spare parts are valuable to some people. Can something be done about this mess? They must understand that they pay a very high price for these parts and without any proper enclosures or security measures they are bound to be stolen.

Rudeness on the part of conductors and drivers has been reduced remarkably. A good job done I must say. However, bus drivers still have to improve their standard of driving. Speeding is still a common offence among the drivers. There is a lot of publicity when new buses are commissioned on the roads every month. But hardly any publicity is given to the number of buses that are laid off through breakdowns and the many major accidents caused by some of the reckless SBS drivers. I think the Minister will notice this when he drives to his office to see whether this is true. If the same number or more buses are taken off the road for these reasons, then additions of new buses to the services are completely nullified. I feel we have to import ready-made buses from overseas by the hundreds, and we have to grant a loan to SBS for this on a long term basis to enable them to recover the cost of these buses. In this way probably our transport problems will be solved. Many people are willing to give up their cars only if the bus service is more efficient and if there are sufficient bus shelters to protect them from the weather.

The display board on the bus showing the service number and the route needs some improvement. In this respect too the Scheme B service buses are far ahead of the SBS. It is pointless to display only the service number and its destination, because commuters would also like to know the various roads along the service route. Surely, this is not asking too much. A small display board showing the main roads along the route can go a long way to help the travelling public.

What is being done about keeping the termini of the buses clean and safe? Many of the terminals are covered with traces of dirty black oil spills which arc quite often a source of danger. particularly on rainy days. The terminals at Yio Chu Kang Road for service 73 and Upper Thomson Road for service 165 are some examples.

The new buses are supposed to have a new type of seat made of fibre-glass. I presume. Unfortunately, this type does not last very long. Most of these seats in the buses are in poor condition. If one is not careful, one is going to receive nasty cuts from a damaged seat. Can something be done to replace these seats with more durable material? The SBS should not only look into the question of quantity but also on the quality of buses.

At some terminals there is no indication which particular bus is going to move out first. The conductors, drivers and time-keepers are no help either. Surely the parking of buses at terminals could be arranged in such a way that the bus at one end will always leave first. This will not keep the commuters guessing. There arc occasions when commuters board a stationary bus at the terminal but they are not told that that bus is either spoilt or will not be the first to leave. Though so many drivers, conductors and timekeepers are present, they just look at the commuters. This goes on very frequently at the terminal point near the Singapore General Hospital. Can something be done about it?

Sir, I would also like to ask if the Minister will consider extending the bus service, which now ends at Shenton Way, to serve Keppel Road ending after the Telok Blangah housing estate. This will help the many port workers who have to take this route. Furthermore a bus service should also be proposed from Cantonment Road to Keppel Road/Telok Blangah Road for port workers.

Mr Speaker, Sir, at peak hours from 4.00 p.m. to 6.00 p.m. the buses coming from the terminal at Shenton Way are always full. But along the way, from Robinson Road to the junction of Market Street all the bus stops are crowded, and the people have to wait for hours. There must be a certain system of re-routing the buses, say, certain buses should be routed from the terminals, certain buses from Market Street, certain buses from the esplanade, and so on. But I am not saying anything more. The Hon. Minister must understand the situation. In the days of the Singapore Traction Company, when their superintendents knew that the commuters were waiting in crowds, they said, "All right, get one bus down from somewhere and bring it here." Or on inspection, they would say. "Bring this service here and tell everybody that this bus is going to Katong," or "This bus is going to Serangoon." Why cannot the SBS use that system? "I am giving more buses" - what is the use of giving more buses? The buses at the terminals are already full and commuters along the route have to wait for hours.

3.00 p.m.

The Minister will notice this if he passes along these roads up to High Street at 5 o'clock. There are more new buses but they are still insufficient because they are always full during peak hours. Therefore, SBS has to arrange a way so that the passengers can get the bus at the proper time to reach home early. But now they leave office at 5 o'clock and reach home at 7 o'clock. They work eight hours but they are out for 12 hours. Something must be done and the very minor matters must be considered, or they will become a bad problem. I ask the Minister to go round these routes at 5 o'clock one day and see what is happening.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Sir, it has always been recognised that there is a shortage of land for development in Singapore. I believe that there is even a special committee to ensure that any available vacant land is properly utilised, that is, with maximum economic benefit. The Central Business District scheme has taken up valuable land which can be utilised for other essential projects like recreational parks and public housing. Notwithstanding the costs involved in the construction of the numerous fringe area-car parks, the valuable land so acquired is in use only for part of the day. During the night these car parks will be left vacant. Millions of dollars will be spent in the construction of these fringe area car parks, the overhead signboards and the necessary checkpoints. The only consolation in this scheme is that job opportunities will be created. Perhaps the Ministry of Communications hopes to recover all or part of the cost from the fees collected arising out of this scheme for motorists.

It is regretted that the CBD scheme is to be introduced at a time when the public transport system has not yet shown any significant improvement. Commuters have still to wait for long hours for the buses. I concede that there is some improvement in the conduct of bus crews. My congratulations to the men who are responsible for raising the morale of the bus workers and putting some semblance of efficient management in the SBS.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in my opinion the CBD scheme when implemented will have more disadvantages than advantages. For example, the Ministry of communications was mainly instrumental in the successful elimination of pirate taxis from our roads. With the CBD scheme, there is nothing to prevent an enterprising person to purchase a car, which is now at rock-bottom prices, round up four or five persons at great personal risk to the passengers and enter the CBD, thus making a profit; all with the blessings of the Ministry of Communications. What is to prevent employers from reimbursing their executive and managerial staff for the area licence fees imposed? Professionals similarly will have no problem in paying the fees as they can pass this burden on to their clients. Salesmen and bill collectors will make the claims to their respective units for reimbursement. With increased costs, the employers will certainly add this on to the cost of goods and services. In the end, the poor consumers suffer through such further inflation; also -with the blessings of the Ministry of communications.

Sir, if there is no restriction on the number of vehicles that is allowed to enter the CBD, and coupled with the aforementioned loopholes, how can we hope to relieve traffic congestion? The question is: is it worthwhile to spend so much money on the CBD scheme only to derive so little benefit from it? Surely there are other alternative measures, like prohibiting cars with certain licence numbers from entering the CBD area at specified times of the day. For example, cars with licence numbers ending with 1 and 2 may be prohibited from entering the CBD on Mondays between certain hours, and so on. In this way, every- motorist has to refrain entry into the CBD for a few hours a week, and there will be a' definite reduction in vehicular traffic within the CBD. I do not think that, the alternative measures proposed will in any way involve extensive enforcement or the engagement of an army of inspectors to check on erring motorists. Stiff penalties together with the points demerit system will be a sufficient deterrent.

The anti-litter campaign succeeded not because there was an army of health inspectors swarming all over the place hut because of strict enforcement and stiff penalties. The present plan tends to favour those who can afford or who have the means to recover the cost of the licence fees and increased car park charges.' I do not think it will relieve traffic congestion within the CBD. Assuming that the proposed plan will succeed, it will inevitably transfer traffic congestion to other parts of the city during peak hours.

The Minister of State for Communications (Mr Chai Chong Yii): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson in his eloquent speech virtually tore SBS into pieces. It is admitted that public transport at the moment is still not at the level that we would like it to be. But the Government team of officials which moved into SBS on, the invitation of the management only about seven months ago has managed to do quite a little bit. If I were to answer right now the faults or rather the defects which the Member for Anson has brought up, then other Members may not have any chance to speak. But what I can say right now is that the faults mentioned by the Member for Anson are all being studied in detail and, given the required period of time, they will all he put right.

As for the Central-Business district mentioned by the Member for Toa Payoh, the `Minister for Communications will be answering him. Perhaps I should stop right now so that other Members will have a chance to raise other matters.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, perhaps the criticisms or queries raised by the Members "for Sembawang and Anson on the Singapore Bus Service are items which can really be fully answered when we come to amendment (2)* which will be moved by the Member for Boon Teck and amendment (6)+ on the Registry of Vehicles.

The amendments read as follows:

*(2) That the sum -to be allocated for, Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1901.

+(6)That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead FAA 1107.

But the Member for Sembawang raised two other points which I think I can answer now. He mentioned about the progress of the Mass Transit Study. Here again, it comes under amendment (9)* (* The amendment reads as follows:(9) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 8101.) and if he wilt be patient enough to wait, we can give him the answer then. But he did mention about the Road Transport Action Committee's policies which are not well received and inquired whether this came within the White Paper on the Reorganisation of the Motor Transport Service of Singapore. I would like to bring to his notice that this White Paper was a three-year plan for the period 1970-73. So it has nothing to do with the Road Transport Action Committee of five Permanent Secretaries, which was appointed in October 1973 after the recommendations of the White Paper have already been more or less accomplished, nor has it anything to do with the follow-up of the recommendations in the White Paper. These are new policies subsequent to the publication of the White Paper.

Sir, I beg to differ with the Member that the policies are not well received. If at all they are not popular measures, that I agree. But the Government has to be responsible. It has got to make unpopular decisions and hard decisions in, order to resolve difficult problems.

I can, however, reply more fully to the Member for Toa Payoh's reservations over the success of the schemes which we intend to implement to reduce traffic congestion in the Central Business District. So far, about $7 million has been committed to implement the two traffic management schemes, namely, the park-and-ride and the area licensing schemes. This amount is for the con- struction of 12 fringe area car parks, parking kiosks at these car parks, provision of new bus shelters, provision of daily area licence sale booths and the erection of overhead gantry signs which are now all, over Singapore, as well as new road direction signs. Contrary to what the Member for Toa Payoh says, we expect a significant improvement in traffic conditions `within the CBD following the introduction of these two traffic management measures.

Various alternative methods of reducing the number of vehicles entering the CBD during the peak periods have been examined before the park-and-ride and the area licensing schemes were selected as being the most appropriate and effective measures for Singapore. The Member has indicated one method and there are also other methods which ,have been suggested, like - allowing vehicles with registration numbers ending in odd numbers entering the CBD on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, and those ending in even numbers on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays.

3.15 p.m.

In fact, the Member for Toa Payoh did put in a paper and it was studied by the Road Transport Action Committee. Unfortunately we have to tell him that though his idea sounds very simple to operate, there are three major serious difficulties when it comes to implementation. Firstly, it will place an automatic restriction of almost one half of the car motoring public and, with at least 140,000 cars registered in Singapore, this means that 70,000 car owners will not be able to use those `cars: This is much too high a level of restriction on the movement of private cars for the time being. Secondly, it does not provide such affected motorists with a genuine need or in an emergency to drive into the city because they are not supposed to be on the road. So they just cannot move. Thirdly, such a scheme will affect all motorists whereas the proposed area licensing scheme is only aimed at restricting car drivers from entering the restricted zone and not elsewhere. The restricted zone is effective only for this two-hour period, from 7.30 a.m, to 9.30 a.m, in the morning, thus having a very minimum effect on business and commerce. There is no restriction of entry into the restricted zone outside these two peak hours in the morning. The area licensing scheme provides options to motorists who wish to continue to drive into the restricted zone. It is not just for the privileged few. They can come in at no extra cost provided the car has at least four passengers. In other words, we want to encourage them to form car pools. Another alternative for motorists would be to participate in the park and ride scheme, and those who choose this scheme would do so at an even much cheaper cost than what they would have to pay for seasonal parking in the city area, because the cost of such seasonal parking could be anything from $50 to $70 a month.

A serious and conscientious effort must therefore be made by all car owners for a more rational use of our roads in the city. Motorists can choose to pay for the privilege to drive into the restricted area provided they pay a price, or help reduce traffic congestion through formation of car pools, or participate in the park and ride scheme, or opt for staggered hours outside the 7.30 a.m, to'9.30 a.m, time slot. Only those- and this is a small fraction - who choose and who must enter the restricted zone during these two hours will have to pay a price which we would call a "social cost". This can be viewed as a charge that is being required to pay for part of the cost of constructing the 12 fringe area car parks.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, just a point of clarification. In my memorandum to the Hon. Minister sometime ago, my proposed scheme covers the whole of Singapore. But in my speech just now I have particularly modified it so that it applies to only the CBD. So it is not correct to say that about half the number of motorists will be affected throughout the day or all over the island. It is only applicable during the peak period, and this will meet the very objective that we are aiming at, that is, to reduce the number of motor cars entering the CBD. So my present plan is a modification of the earlier one.

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): New proposals.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, it gives mc a chance to say again that the modified plan cannot be accepted at this stage. But it does give me the opportunity to answer another point which was raised by the Member for Ton Payoh and which I have missed in my answer, i.e, that the fringe area car parks would not be utilized at night. I wish to assure him that this matter has been considered and that these fringe area car parks which can hold as many as 10,000 cars will be economically used. They will be let out for the parking of buses, lorries and even cars, if necessary, at a fee to be charged. So we shall be making full use of these fringe area car parks. The Road Transport Action Committee will be issuing a full press statement to explain the details of the park and ride scheme and the area licensing scheme in the middle of next month. So more details will be made available to Members of this House as well as to members of the public.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (in Mandarin): Sir, the Minister did not understand me very clearly just now. I said that the view of members of the public was that the progress in reorganisation has been rather slow. They are not dissatisfied. It is just that the progress has been rather slow.

Another point I raised was whether the reorganisation has proceeded in accordance with the scheduled programme as given in the White Paper. For example, in the matter of replacement of old vehicles, we still find a lot of old vehicles running on the road. What has happened to the replacement scheme? Is it according to the schedule as provided in the White Paper? I would like to ask the Minister concerned to inform this House whether the reorganisation has been proceeding according to schedule for the three-year period. Further, has the traffic congestion situation improved much?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am sorry, Sir, for failing to answer all the questions raised by the Member for Sembawang. As regards the full implementation of the recommendations of the White Paper which was meant to be completed by the middle of 1973, I can only say that it was not a 100% implementation of all the recommendations. We tried as far as we possibly could, but many of the details have not been exactly implemented. It will take some time to do so.

As regards the Road Transport Action Committee's policies not being implemented fast enough, I think there is a necessity to consider the repercussions. For some, it is probably moving a bit too fast for them. Perhaps it is better to hasten slowly. That is why, for the park and ride scheme and the area licensing scheme, even though the brochure was published more than a year ago it is coming into operation only after one full year of publicity and explanation.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (in Mandarin): Sir, since the Minister has given an explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Phey Yew Kok (Boon Teck): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1901.

Sir, I chose to remain silent in this Parliament for the last 24 years and to listen to all the constructive criticisms as well as a few unfair criticisms about our bus workers, but I am sure you will agree with me that the time has come for me to say a few words of encouragement for the ROV, the new management, as well as the 8,000 bus workers of SBS.

There have been searing criticisms in the past against our bus drivers and conductors about their conduct, performance and inadequate care of vehicles. These were valid criticisms, but the rut that set in had quite a lot to do with the poor organisation and mismanagement as well. It became evident that to bring order out of chaos, drastic measures had to be taken to relieve commuters from the deplorable inadequacies and inconveniences which they had to face. The Government stepped in and with the advent of the Government team of officers there have been significant improvements. Close cooperation between the Ministry of Communications, the union and the new management has cleared up a messy situation with the active participation of the workers. The contribution of the union with the support of the bus workers must not go unheeded. From a ragged lot, the bus workers have found a new dignity as co-partners in improving the public bus transport system. Terms and conditions of employment have also improved and the new management has taken cognisance of the welfare of the workers.

Though, all in all, the improvements have been generally satisfactory, I would call upon the management to also take cognisance of the fact that the mechanics, timekeepers, bus drivers and conductors are the people who are directly involved in keeping the fleet of buses running well on time and earning revenue for the company. They are, in other words, collectively responsible for the smooth and efficient operation of the bus services, and they shoulder great responsibilities. The management should, therefore, consider them on an equal footing with other employees.

There are still a few other areas which require consideration. During peak hours, bus workers have to work under great stress and strain. When buses are full, it sometimes happens that buses will have to overshoot bus stops to prevent commuters gathered in large numbers from pushing their way in. The commuters ,have also ,to develop a sense of discipline by queuing up at bus stops and refraining to enter buses which are full when requested to do so by the conductor. In such circumstances, it is unfair and unjust for anyone to pin the blame on bus conductors and drivers who arc responsible for the safety and comfort of the passengers. There are also instances when any commuters are uncivil to bus conductors. These are probably the normal hazards of the job, hut they can be made tolerable if greater understanding is shown.

In respect of bus terminals, the situation is far from satisfactory. In other cities large bus terminals with adequate facilities exist. Apart from the Toa Payoh bus terminal, there are no proper bus terminals in Singapore where buses can be parked in clearly demarcated bays or various routes. This would facilitate the proper identification of buses and orderly boarding by commuters. I suggest that the provision of proper bus terminals should be given urgent consideration, and that consideration should also be given in development projects for the provision of bus terminals with reasonably sufficient facilities for canteens and sanitary needs.

3.30 p.m.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Mr Speaker, Sir, the SBS which was, formed in November 1973 is easily the biggest private company with a work force of about 9,000 employees. The hon. Member for Boon Teck has told the House some-of the problems faced by the company and the bus workers. We all know that SBS is formed out of ten small Chinese bus companies which were, managed on a family basis. So the company has to face a lot of problems. During the period of the last seven months in which I have been involved in the reorganisation, quite a bit has, been done for the welfare of the bus workers.

The introduction of standard procedures and systems has to a great extent reduced the unhappiness of the bus workers. The company has also provided better working environment and recreational facilities for the bus workers. The following are some of the measures taken by the company to improve the working conditions of the bus workers as a whole.

1. Common procedures for recruitment and selection of personnel.

2. Standard office hours for the various bus depots.

3. Standardised daily wage deductions for bus drivers and conductors were also implemented in all the depots, thereby making it much easier for reconciliation of wages. The company has also tried its best to encourage thrift among the bus workers by contributing $5 to each POSB savings account opened by the bus workers.

4. The recommendation `of the NWC on wage increases was also implemented for all the bus workers.

All this has boosted up the morale of the bus `workers to a great extent and the bus workers have responded very well except a few.

As for the salary scale mentioned by the Member for Boon Teck, I would like to inform the House that the bus company right now is drawing up a comprehensive salary scale for all SBS employees so as to keep them informed of their career prospects in the company.

Touching on the point of the bus terminus, it is quite true that we are still short of satisfactory bus terminus owing to various reasons, one of which is shortage of land. But the company has already done its best in providing one very important need of the bus workers, that is, the toilet facilities, in Lim Chu Kang, Sembawang, Jalan Kayu, Ulu Pandan, Kaki Bukit and Jalan Eunos. - These facilities are expected to be completed early next month. As for bus terminus in the city area, this question is still being looked into.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Mr Speaker, Sir, I just like to seek clarification on this particular amount. According to the Memorandum on the Main and Development Estimates, this amount of $1.15 million will be subsequently recovered from SBS. Will it be recovered at cost or cost-plus?

Mr Chai Chong Yii: On this point, I would like to inform the House that the company is paying 150% of the salaries of the employees seconded to the bus company. - -

Mr Ivan Baptist (Potong Pasir): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister of State did say that a few workers had not responded to the measures introduced by the SBS. I would like to know what action has been taken against them.

The other point is whether the Hon. Minister has considered the question of solving the problem of fatigue of bus drivers during those long drives, as mentioned by the Member for Boon Teck.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: On the question of uninterrupted long distance drives, I would like to say that this matter is now being looked into by breaking a long trip into two short trips. But we have to look `into the question of additional cost for the commuters. As a result, it is still not being implemented. Should it be implemented, it would, of course, be on the understanding that the commuter will not be made to pay more, although he may be inconvenienced by a transfer to another bus, especially, for those who are staying in Changi and working in Jurong.

On the other point about bus workers who did not respond, the steps taken will be first to try to win them -over by educational means. And if they still do not respond by changing their attitude for the benefit of the company and- the' public, `the ultimate result wilt be dismissal.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I do not consider 150% of the salaries to be a very good deal considering that these officers seconded to the SBS are all very' seasoned, well trained' and experienced officers from ,the various Ministries. Their secondment would mean that the standard of service in the other departments would" suffer,' and to that extent the taxpayers suffer. We are, in fact, subsidising the management of SBS. Considering that the Government must have spent vast sums of money over the years to `train these people, I think" a more reasonable deal would be that Government gets a share in the profits -subject to a figure not less than 150% of the amount expended. Whatever profit or commission that the Government receives can be used for public -purposes. I think this would be a more reasonable basis. We have a duty to help the SBS to raise the standard of service, but we do not have a duty to help the private shareholders to make profit at, the expense of the public.

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir,' 1 wish to compliment the hon. Member, for Jalan Kayu for his cost-consciousness as regards the payment of salaries of staff who have been seconded to assist SBS to reorganise and improve its management. I think it is a very unique and unprecedented move to second more than 100 officers from Government and our Armed Forces to help a private limited company like SBS. It has been done by Government purely because for historical reasons an essential public service, like the bus service, is in the hands of a private company. If it were riot for this, I do not think the Government would lift a finger. The Government would allow the company to collapse and to start a new company.

More than 1 1/2 million people travel by bus, and it is not possible for the Government to allow it to collapse. And after the Government Team of Officials has gone in to investigate and find out exactly what was wrong with the company, SBS was not in a position to implement, the recommendations of the Government Team of Officials contained in a report which has been published, and I am sure every Member in this House has studiously read it, including the Member for Kallang. They were not in a position to do a thing for themselves and surely Government had to come in.

If the Member for Jalan Kayu had followed the statement that was issued by the Ministry of Communications at the time that the team was to be seconded, which was in July last year, he would have realised that after Government had put in so much effort to reorganise, improve and bring the standard of service to a level which we consider is necessary, the Government would not relax its hold on the company we would like to see this private limited company become a public limited company with shares on the Stock Exchange, and that Government would have a shareholding in it. I think it is a little too early to say that we are treating SBS rather cheaply because we have already moved in. We will see to it that profits are not made just for private shareholders and, if and when we succeed, and I think we shall succeed, in raising the standard of this bus company, Government will have a participation in it, and I think it is our duty to do so. I hope it would not appear as if we want to squeeze the lemon dry by getting the maximum out of SBS, so long as Government is not out-of-pocket for it.

3.45 p.m.

Mr Phey Yew Kok: I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for their replies. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1107.

Sir, our seamen seem to have a knack for getting into trouble in foreign waters. Sometime ago there was an incident involving Neptune Orient Lines, and this resulted in Singapore ships being banned by the Australian Seamen's Union. Did our seamen come into contact with Australian Seamen's Union and make use of foreign unions to make a claim for higher wages? If not, it seems to be a gross interference on the part of the Australian Seamen's Union to lay down rules on the wage structure of our union. What has happened so far. Sir?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker. Sir, I presume the Member for Anson is referring to the reported incident which took place last month involving the Neptune Orient Lines vessel, the Neptune Ruby, in Melbourne, Australia The Neptune Orient Lines has a number of vessels plying to Australasian ports. Before the Neptune Ruby incident there were no reports of interference with NOL ships although, prior to the setting up of the Board of inquiry by my colleague, the Minister for Labour, in February 1973 to look into the dispute between the Maritime Employers and the Singapore Seamen's Organisation, there were a number of reports of interference with ships, both Singapore and foreign registered, in which Singapore seamen were employed by the Australian Waterside Workers' Federation.

When the Neptune Ruby was brought into commission in August 1972, she was manned by Singapore officers and crew. However, as the vessel was on long-term charter to a Japanese shipping company whose routes were Japan, Australia and subsequently Japan Caribbean ports, NOL made the decision to employ Filipino crew on the Neptune Ruby with the change of Articles for the seamen in August 1973. The decision was taken while they were on vessels which do not call back periodically at Singapore which are not popular with our seafarers, and have in the past given rise to problems of crew morale, and discipline. When the Neptune Ruby arrived in Melbourne on 20th February, 1975, one Filipino electrician on board, who was to be replaced on disciplinary grounds, did approach the Australian Waterside Workers Federation for assistance. The AWWF representative who boarded the vessel was reported to have said that unless the problems of the electrician and those of three other officers, who were also about to be released by replacement officers being flown out by NOL agents in the Philippines, were resolved no linesmen and tugs would be supplied to sail the vessel. The AWWF representative was said to have further demanded that the crew members of the Neptune Ruby be paid the International Transport Federation rates of pay with retrospective effect from the date the current Articles of Agreement were opened in August 1974, and further that the officers whose services were to be terminated should be paid wages up to the expiry of the Articles, that is, approximately six months' wages. The Neptune Ruby was, however, allowed to leave Melbourne on 26th February, 1975, after the personnel who were to be replaced had been paid three months' wages as severance pay. The demand for the crew to be paid the ITF rates was dropped. NOL has reported that no further difficulties have been experienced in the Australasian ports since the Neptune Ruby incident.

May I add that the policy of the NOL continues to be one of giving preference to the employment of Singapore seamen. In fact, 74% of the officers and crew serving on NOL vessels are local personnel. However, in the case of NOL vessels on long-term charter, crew of other nationalities may have to be employed for the time being for operational reasons.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the explanation of the Minister for Communications, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Yeo Toon Chia (Kampung Kapur): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head O be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 1106*. ( *The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs P. Govindaswamy and N. Govindasamy ).

Sir, tourism is a budding industry in Singapore with a million people passing through Singapore annually. The Singapore International Airport is the place that gives the passenger his first impression on arrival and last impression on departure. On arrival a passenger is immediately accorded all the facilities and services. But when he leaves, the good impression that he had on arrival would be rudely disturbed when he finally boards the plane.

Sir, Singaporeans and tourists alike leave Singapore at all times of the day via the Singapore International Airport. During the peak hours the check-in counters are very congested, and the passengers have to squeeze their way through the crowds of well-wishers. The check-in sometimes takes as long as 30 to 45 minutes, and during this time the passengers have to wait in discomfort. Not only is this area extremely inadequate to cater for the growing number of passengers but the atmosphere is also humid which the passengers have to endure before clearance. Of course, this check-in area is not air-conditioned. But it is ironical to note that the electric fans on the pillars should be directed at the staff behind the counters, instead of at the passengers. After all, the passengers are paying a service charge of $10 which is the highest rate in this part of the world. Furthermore, they are also made to feel the discomfort of the weather should there be a shower at this area, which is not partitioned off. To improve the situation, it is suggested that immediate action should be taken to partition off the frontage and air-condition the area. By doing so, it will reduce the noise pollution from the traffic outside.

Moving on to the main concourse passengers are again faced with the over-crowded area because of the congestion. Announcements of departures at times could not be heard and passengers either miss their flight or the departure is delayed. The departure transit hail is also very congested. There are not enough benches for the passengers to sir and some of them either have to move around or even sit on the floor. `lopping it off is the fact that there is a lack of signboards, not only in this area but also in the whole terminal, to guide passengers.

Sir, 1 am most concerned that with about 60 services operating at the Singapore International Airport this state of affairs should have been allowed to remain. Some of the areas in the terminal were constructed to cater for small domestic flights years ago. But with the fast growing air traffic and with affluent Singaporeans going abroad, the Singapore International Airport should expand and provide all necessary services and facilities to cater for the growing needs of passengers.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, my Friend, the Member for Kampung Kapur, has already brought up some of the shortcomings in the Singapore International Airport.

The waving gallery at the Paya Lebar Airport has been closed for some time, and no substitute has been offered. We have come to a stage where persons cannot even send off their friends properly. Our airport must be one of the few international airports in the world without a waving gallery. As a result, the waiting hail is so congested. At times, the situation is unbearable for those who wait in the hall. I would like to invite the Minister to see for himself the situation at the airport when the pilgrims are being sent off to Mecca, or at any other time. What an impression we are creating to the departing tourists, who have to squeeze their way through a mass of humanity in order to get to the departure gate. It was only a year ago that the waving gallery was opened, and yet so soon it has been closed. Why has there been bad planning on the part of the Airport authorities? The seats provided are shockingly few. Would it cost too much, or would it be too much to provide some more seats? This state of affairs in the international airport is disgrace- ful and not in keeping with Singapore's good image on tourists.

Sir, last year a sum of $250,000 was allocated for the resurfacing of the existing runway. But it seems that only $20,000 was spent. This year the allocation is ten times the amount allocated in the previous year. It seems to me that the resurfacing of the existing runway was not carried out last year, it is no wonder that the Pilots Association remarked that Singapore Airport is one of the worst as far as runway is concerned. It is bumpy and uneven. This is very bad. Surely an international airport in this particular region cannot afford to have a bumpy and uneven surface for its runway. Now, may I ask if this allocation of $2,580,000 is going to be utilized this year for resurfacing the runway? Or are we going to just leave it and have another reallocation done next year again?

4.00 p.m.

Sir, for the new Air Freight Terminal a vote of $2 million was granted in 1974. Out of this, a sum of $1,960,000 is being revoted for this year. The provision for a new Passenger Terminal was $3 million in 1974 and $2,990,000 is being revoted for this year~ that means only $10,000 was spent. The provision for the new Boeing 747 Hangar was $7,000,000 last year and the amount to be revoted this year is $6,400,000. I do not know why the revotes are reducing when costs are going up. Airport Fire Service, fire substation $400,000, revote $400,000. Not a single cent was spent. Now, what is really going on at the airport? Are we taking votes and getting revotes or is any work really being carried out at the airport? Surely, when estimates are given a certain sum of money is required, and the money must be utilized. I think something is definitely wrong somewhere. So many revotes are being made. Obviously the money is not being used and, therefore, work is not being carried out at the airport.

Sir, in a reply to a certain Member of Parliament in the previous year the Minister stated that a second terminal would be required for the Airport at Paya Lebar. Now, with this decrease in tourist traffic, is this terminal building still under review? Or are we going ahead with the construction of the building, irrespective of the decrease in the number of tourist traffic.

Sir, in the Economic Survey of Singapore for 1974 it is stated that the tourist traffic has increased a great deal as compared to the previous year. What I want to know is this: is this increase brought about by traffic through the Port or Airport or the Causeway? Or is there any decrease in traffic in any particular terminal? If so, why?

The Singapore Airlines has indicated that it is going to purchase a number of jumbo jets to cope with the tourist traffic. May I know if these jumbo jets have already been purchased, or is the purchase still in SIA's mind? If so, may 1 ask whether it is a wise move to purchase them at a time when tourist traffic is declining throughout the whole world, because of increased cost of freight, fuel charges, and increased cost of maintenance and operations of standard aircraft. Furthermore, what guarantee is there that our tourist traffic will increase in future because of world inflationary trends?

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Sir, I too want to speak about the voting and revoting of Development Estimates in respect of the Paya Lebar Airport. Though it has been well covered by the Member for Anson, I would like to point out that I also looked through the Estimates for the last financial year which I think the Member for Anson did not look up. Last year's estimates were revoted from the year before last. Perhaps next year we would not have to revote again, and instead the lack of improvements that were complained of by the Members for Anson and Kampung Kapur would have been carried out.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is regrettably true that after many of the estimates for Paya Lebar Airport had been voted, revotes had to be asked for. The reason is that it has taken a long time to get all these development proposals started. They are development proposals really, Sir, and plans have got to be drawn and checked. First of all, of course, costs have gone up and then we have to seek approval of the Ministry of Finance before we can proceed with tenders and so on. And this has been going on over a period of time.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: But the revotes are being reduced. The Minister says that costs have increased. Why is it that the revotes are reducing?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Well, it is not as simple as building a house which could probably be done in a few months, and everything is over. Most of these development projects are of a continuing nature and stretch over a number of years. So if the Ministry of Finance feels that a particular project would take five years to complete and that for the next financial year it is possible to spend, say only one-fifth of that amount, that is all that they will allocate for that item. I do not think it a mystery for certain figures to shrink in size, because physically neither the Ministry nor the contractors will be able to make full use of the funds that have been allocated. That is the position, and I think it also answers the criticism of the Member for Telok Blangah. Invariably, the provision in the Development Estimates is not fully spent and the unspent amount need to be revoted, because if we do not ask for a revote, then we would not get it at all. We are lucky if we even have a $10 token vote to keep it alive. So I do not think the Member for Anson need be too excited.

Reasons for low spending, and perhaps sometimes of over-estimation, are as follows. There has been delay in the clearance and resettlement of the affected squatters on those sites which are required for development projects. I think hon. Members of affected areas, like Punggol and Tampines, will understand the situation. We do not just evict the squatters. It is not just evicting one squatter but hundreds of them and sometimes thousands, and we begin to move and hasten slowly. Because of the hindrance from squatters, the necessary site preparation work and piling work cannot be done as anticipated.

Some of the projects are being partly financed by the Asian Development Bank in Manila. And we have to go through lengthy administrative clearances to get their approval before a particular project could get off the ground.

Next, technical and staffing difficulties are encountered in the preparation of specification and contract documents. For example, in the case of the long range surveillance radar project and the ticketing wing extension, as mentioned by the Member for Kampung Kapur, and conversion of the former postal sorting office all these are involved in development.

Next, technical problems arise affecting the commissioning of equipment and radar already purchased and installed. We are still having difficulties, teething troubles, that need adjustments, and this takes time.

Finally, delay in the finalisation of detailed design drawings on tendered documents by the appointed consultants, the Northrop Airport Development Corporation, for the Boeing 747 hangar, the new air freight terminal building, the fire station and the new passenger terminal building and the new parking apron. All these are part and parcel of the multi-million dollar projects which take not just months but years.

So all I can say is that every effort has been made to get the development projects done. As can be seen, once the Development Planning Sub-Committee approves the plans certain procedures have to be complied with, and this takes time. But every effort is being made to get them through as quickly as possible. These development projects amount to $21.6 million in this case. I think that is about all I can answer really to the question of why there is so much money but nothing appears to be moving. Lots of things are moving. That it moves rather slowly, I agree.

Mr Yeo Toon Chia: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (5). Mr Ng Kah Ting is not speaking. Mr. Teong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead EAA 1107 (The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Ng Kah Ting and P. Govindaswamy).

Sir, the Postal Services Department has a very great responsibility as it handles hundreds of thousands of mail for our people, commercial firms and factories. It is responsible for the timely transmission and delivery of mail. Generally speaking, and to be fair, I would say that the Postal Services have improved over the years. But unfortunately, of course, there are still some shortcomings which need to be brought to the attention of the Minister. The shortcomings include the delay or late delivery of letters. In my personal experience sometime ago I had to wait for three days for a Government letter to be delivered to me. Apparently there had been some considerable delay. Delivery of local mail should be effected overnight. So I hope that the Minister will look into this matter and ensure that delays should be minimised, if not entirely avoided. If it is because of traffic congestion or staff problems, I think something can be done to solve them.

The next point is that certain postmen have not conducted themselves very well. I have received complaints from my constituents that some postmen simply throw the letters about, instead of putting them into the letter boxes or handing them through the doorway. Very often these letters are thrown on the five-foot way or the corridor, This is a very bad way of delivering letters because the letters would then become soiled or mislaid. I hope the Minister will look into the matter and take remedial action.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not going to complain about the postmen because they have a difficult job. Among the Division IV employees, the postman's job is the most difficult one. Everyone must remember that.

However, I am going to talk about postwomen. It was proudly publicised recently that postwomen are now being employed by the Postal Services Department as part of the reorganisation programme. It has been observed that some of these postwomen look more like school girls in kindergarten uniforms. Recruiting them make us believe that they can take the place of the postmen. But the postman has to carry a 35-pound bag. How can we ask the postwoman to carry a bag of the same weight? For a policewoman, we normally see her standing on duty. But not the postwoman.

Sir, I had been working in the Postal Department, and my shoulder level has dropped by half an inch on one side because of carrying the post bag. My tailor also told me that one of my shoulders has dropped a little. So if we ask the postwoman to do the same job, it would be unfair. There are so many jobs in the Postal Department which can be allotted to them. Do not give equal job to the postwomen, but give them equal pay, even if the Postal Services Department has to employ post-women to meet the shortage of postmen.

4.15 p.m.

Sir, can the Minister enlighten the House whether any specific requirements are spelt out in respect of height, build and weight when a recruitment is carried out? Is the Minister aware that a number of these postwomen are not able to ride bicycles made available to them because they cannot even reach the bicycle pedal?

It was also observed that these girls often hold the peak cap in one hand when delivering mail in the street. This could be because they want to shield their faces from recognition, or because they are embarrassed having to put on the awkward looking peak cap.

Could the Minister tell us whether the present postwomen are as efficient and able as the postmen in the sorting and delivering of mail? Is the work of the postwomen as demanding as that of the postmen? Are we not a party to the hazard faced by these girls on the dangerous roads?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, I must congratulate the Member for Anson for being so chivalrous at his age, watching and observing the behaviour of our post-women. He is certainly a young man at heart!

As a result of the high turnover in the postman's grade and to provide more employment opportunities for our women in the Republic, the Postal Services Department made the move to recruit postwomen. They have been recruited through the Employment Exchange. In view of the nature of their duties the Special Committee in the Ministry of Labour has been requested to supply candidates with robust physique for appointment to this grade. At present there are 18 postwomen in service, and I may as well indicate where they are; otherwise every one will think that our postwomen are carrying mails. Eight are on bicycle delivery beats. As it has been indicated that some of the bicycles are probably too high for them, we hope at the next financial year to get bicycles fit for women; probably half the size if the postwomen are of small stature. In the mail collection section, there is one on van driving duty; parcel delivery duty, one; indoor duty at the Mails and Parcels Centre. Nelson Road, one; and seven on foot delivery beats. The complaint is that they have to carry too heavy mail bags. The Postmaster-General has indicated that these bags will be reduced in size to suit their physique.

As regards the peak caps, the Member for Anson complains that they are holding them instead of wearing them. These are interim arrangements and action is being taken by the Department to supply our postwomen with suitable peak caps, similar to those used by the Republic's policewomen.

It is understood that all our post-women who have been recruited are generally satisfied with their job and working conditions. Arrangements will be made with the Registry of Vehicles to conduct Highway Code courses for our postwomen so that they can be employed on scooter delivery, and perhaps we may be able to do away with foot delivery for our postwomen. And we will continue to employ as many postwomen as there are vacancies hereafter.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Minister said that our postwomen may be employed on scooter delivery. This may be dangerous. If you allow the post-women to deliver by scooter and if registered parcels and mails are lost on delivery in the rural areas, then there will be more trouble.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am grateful to the Member for Anson for his concern, and I assure him that this matter will be looked into.

May I now come to the Member for Sembawang. He expressed concern for the delay in the delivery of mails. Delays in delivery can happen under the following circumstances.

Firstly, incomplete, poor or illegible addressing of mail. Incorrect addressing of mail includes writing the wrong postal district number. Sometimes, due to seasonal peak periods, it takes a bit longer to deliver mail than for a normal day. Of course, it is possible that our own postal workers could have put the mail into the wrong sorting box, and hence incorrectly delivered by the delivery postmen. Under normal circumstances, mails can take up from two to three days to be delivered to the correct address, if posted on a Friday, Saturday or on the eve of a public holiday. Normally it is possible to have an overnight delivery, if posted in Singapore. I have already explained how it is possible for mails to be delivered late for a variety of reasons.

At this stage, perhaps I might say that the Postal Services Department has a workforce of only 400 postmen, and they have to deliver no less than 173 million items of mail each year, or an average of more than half a million items each day. Errors may therefore occur, as in the postal service of any country. This does not, of course, mean that inefficient or irresponsible mail delivery is condoned by our Postal Services Department. So if there are complaints I would appreciate it if such complaints are lodged.

I understand that there have been no complaints from Sembawang constituency for a long time. The Member for Sembawang, however, did mention about discourtesy on the part of postmen in the delivery of mail. He said that they threw the mail on the floor. Here again, unless a complaint is lodged, we can do little about it because all postmen and postwomen are being told how to behave and to extend courtesy, and what the correct procedure is and methods of delivery of mail. If we get any report of improper conduct on the part of our postmen or postwomen, it would initially take the form of caution if found guilty, and such conduct will be noted down. If the postman concerned should persistently repeat these irregularities, he will be considered for more severe disciplinary action under the Public Service Disciplinary Proceedings (Delegation of Functions) Rules, 1970, or the Public Service Disciplinary Regulations 1970, as appropriate.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: On a point of clarification. I am not objecting to the recruitment of postwomen. I am telling the Minister to provide our postwomen with easier jobs.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, it is difficult to increase the efficiency of the Postal Services Department because there are only 400 postmen to handle 173 million items of mail. I hope the Minister can ask for more postmen so as to increase the efficiency of the Department. I also agree that we can recruit more postwomen as they are suitable for the job and can serve us more courteously.

In any case, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Before we go to the next amendment, I think it would be a good idea to have a tea break at this stage.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting now and will take the Chair again at 5.00 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.28 p.m. until 5.00 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.00 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head O (contd.)

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead FAA l108 (The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Teong Eng Siong, Ang Nam Piau, P. Govindaswamy, Chin Harn Tong, N. Govindasamy and Ivan Baptist).

Sir, I have two points to raise. First, I would like to refer to the question of smoky buses. Last year the Minister posed the problem - either we have smoky buses to carry passengers or we look after the smoky exhausts and have fewer buses on the road. The inevitable answer to that, of course, was that we had to have smoky buses. However, I am sure that by this time, after a passage of one year and with so many improvements in the bus service, this problem would have been solved to some extent. It is important that we take a more and more serious view of the presence of smoky buses on the road. Tolerance of lower standards of control of emission of smoke, especially where SBS is concerned, means retarding the progress of our anti-pollution campaign. How can we take measures against one sector for air pollution and do not take proper measures against another sector?

To give one illustration of smoke on the road, one need only to take the instance of our school children jogging by the side of the road as part of their extra-curricular activities. Not infrequently I have noticed passing heavy vehicles, mostly buses, emitting smoke right into the midst of these children doing their exercise. How healthy is it for such children to breathe in heavily polluted atmosphere on the road? I know that action has indeed been taken in respect of smoky buses. If fines have been imposed on the SBS for smoky buses, further penalties should be imposed. They are making money. So I think we can be strict in this respect.

On another matter, I would like to draw the attention of the Registrar of Vehicles to the inadequate enforcement of traffic regulations in respect of heavy commercial vehicles, especially Malaysian registered vehicles. In many places in Singapore, especially along Dunearn Road and Bukit Timah Road, large lorries carrying timber and vegetables at all times of the day, do not pay any heed to traffic regulations. They know that they can get away with it because it is difficult to impose measures against them. The more they realise this, the more flagrantly do they flout the law. I do not think that any vigorous action taken against these vehicles will necessarily sour up relations with Malaysia, for I am sure they are not allowed to behave in this way on their own roads in Malaysia. May I, therefore, urge the competent authority to take proper action against these vehicles to discourage them from this insolent act.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise a certain problem relating to the taxi drivers. The ROV Traffic Police are very discourteous in their attitude towards taxi drivers, and have always made things difficult for them. They are very rude and always carry out spot-checks on taxis. They do not want to listen to the complaints of the taxi drivers. And while checking the taxis, if they cannot find any fault with the engine, they will say that the taxi is emitting obnoxious smoke and then order the taxi driver to drive his taxi to the ROV compound for a further check there. And only if they cannot find anything wrong with the taxi will they allow the taxi driver to go home. Thus, the taxi drivers have wasted their time and as a result lost their earnings. Is it reasonable to treat the taxi drivers in this way?

In the past I have also complained about spot-checking of taxis by the Traffic Police. Taxis have to be inspected and checked every six months if they are to ply on the road. This is to ensure that every taxi on the road is in a sound condition. If the Traffic Police continues to spot check taxis all the time, this is tantamount to creating difficulties for the taxi drivers. We should not allow this to go on.

The second point I would like to raise is that the ROV Traffic Police have been unreasonable towards taxi drivers. One taxi driver complained to me one day that he received a summons from the Traffic Police stating that he had committed three traffic offences. One of the charges was that the taxi was parked in a taxi stand. If a taxi is not parked at a taxi stand, where else can it be parked? The second charge was that the taxi driver had switched off his taxi meter. He told me that a passenger wanted to go to a shop to buy something and the taxi meter then showed the fare to be $1.80 and as he was supposed to be waiting he was not supposed to switch off the meter. The third charge was that the taxi driver was not sitting inside the taxi while waiting. He was at that time standing by the taxi. There was no need for the Traffic Police to worry about the taxi "flying off".

When the taxi driver received such a summons with all these unreasonable charges, he was really flabbergasted. He went at once to the ROV to explain the situation and the officer accepted his explanation to withdraw the summons but he wanted the taxi driver to go to court to have the summons squashed. This means that half a day's earning is lost for the poor taxi driver. These unreasonable charges and summonses are quite numerous. I attribute this to the fact that some of the ROV Traffic Policemen are either not aware of the regulations or they are just deliberately trying to he difficult with the taxi drivers. That being the case I would like to ask the Minister to look into the matter very seriously and to get rid of all the black sheep in the ROV Traffic Police.

Mr Ang Nam Piau (Thomson): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, many people have told me that there are far too few taxis in Singapore. I think this is quite possible because from personal experience I have to wait for a taxi for a very long time. On several occasions I have to wait for as long as 15 to 30 minutes before I could get a taxi. I have also come across empty taxis refusing to pick up fares even if they were to raise their hand to request the drivers to stop. There are yet other taxi drivers who stop in response to the hand signal but they say that they cannot drive the passengers to certain places. So again they refuse to pick up the fare.

I feel that the Government should not allow this situation to continue. The authority concerned should exercise greater control over taxi drivers. Furthermore, it is my considered opinion that there is a real shortage of taxis in Singapore. Otherwise one does not have to wait for so long before one can get a taxi. For the convenience of the general public. I hope the Minister will consider issuing more taxi licences.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, lorries carrying sand, earth or granite chips quite often spill their contents onto the road. This is not only a very dangerous practice but it also dirties the road as well. Furthermore, these granite chips may even shatter the windscreen of a passing car and thereby cause unnecessary accident. It is high time that legislation was introduced to provide that all lorries carrying earth, sand or granite chips should be covered with tarpaulin, as is the practice of all lorries carrying rubbish. It is not a very difficult piece of legislation to introduce. Neither is it going to cost a great deal to these transport operators.

Sir, since the introduction of the bus lane, how many persons have been prosecuted so far for causing obstruction during the peak period? Far too many drivers have violated this regulation by driving in bus lanes and cause obstruction to buses during the stipulated times. How far is this being controlled?

5.15 p.m.

Sir, the park and ride scheme is being monitored by the whole world. It is no doubt a very good scheme. It is well thought and well planned. How successful it will be is left to be seen. It is our hone that it will be a success. The Minister for Communications must be congratulated for introducing this scheme with the object of reducing traffic congestion in the city during the peak hours. But personally I have a few forebodings about the park and ride scheme. Firstly, motorists entering the CBD between 7.30 a.m, and 9.30 a.m, have to pay a $3 entrance fee per vehicle. Secondly, businessmen can easily afford to pay this amount and enter the CBD without any trouble at all because all they need do is to show their receipt and claim the money that they have paid. So this partly defeats the scheme. Thirdly, motorists can enter the CBD before 7.30 am, or after 9.30 am., and this will create congestion to the same degree as we are experiencing now. Although we can charge the motorists $3 per vehicle when they enter the city area, what happens when they leave the city? The congestion and the traffic jam will still remain the same. The problem is not solved. Should we not extend this scheme? The scheme is no doubt very good in concept but it has got to be properly checked. Singaporeans are a very adaptable and flexible people. That is why we are a successful nation. If 7.30 a.m, is the time for the scheme to be effective, then all one has to do is to go to the city either before 7.30 a.m, or after 9.30 am. How many cars will, in fact, be reduced in this way? Further, aggravation and frustration will be caused in the evening when people leave the city. So the congestion will still be there. If there is any change, it will be too negligible to be noticed.

Too many people in Singapore own cars as a status symbol, and too many of them enter the city for no particular purpose. Even if they do have a particular purpose, it is of not much importance. We should try and discourage people from owning cars and we should discourage them from entering the city unnecessarily.

Sir, personally I feel that the increased road tax is not a proper deterrent to car ownership. It would be far better to increase the tax on new cars so as to make it prohibitive to own a car. In this way the increase in the number of cars can be controlled to a greater extent, and those people who buy cars as a status symbol would have second thoughts about doing so. Further, households with more than one car should pay a special tax on the additional cars that they own. This will discourage two-car or three-car families. In fact, the trend in modern cities is to reduce vehicular traffic as much as possible and to give the city back to the pedestrian. Let us give our city back to the pedestrian to whom it rightly belongs.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry is now going to introduce the area licence fee for the park and ride scheme. All right, if everyone pays for the licence, what happens? The same congestion will be there. They will say, "I will pay $60." Everyone buys the licence at $60. What happens? So what is the Minister going to do to reduce congestion of traffic in the city areas?

Mr Chin Harn Tong (Aljunied): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, after having ruled for 16 years, the Government has achieved excellent results in looking after the interest of the people in general. However, it does not mean that there are no shortcomings. In fact, if we are to look around carefully, we will be able to notice them clearly. One of them relates to the question of taxi-driving licences.

According to my understanding, at present there are about 15,000 licensed taxi drivers but the number of taxis on the roads is only 5,000. In other words, a few thousand people holding taxi drivers' licences have little or no opportunity to drive taxis. Of course, I am not blaming the ROV officers in charge for this situation. In fact, the reason for this situation is that many years ago the Authorities concerned had not been very strict in the issue of taxi drivers' licences. Since this disproportionately excess number of taxi drivers is evident, the ROV has got no reason not to face the issue squarely. Because of this, certain problems have arisen. We have got some people who hold licences but are unemployed or are unable to get taxis to drive as a proper occupation, even if they want to. Secondly, there are people who already have a full-time job but because they also hold taxi drivers' licences they do taxi driving as a part-time job. Thirdly, there are people who already have permanent jobs and do not drive taxis at present but because they hold taxi drivers' licences they continue to hold such licences in case they may want to drive taxis in future. Perhaps, ROV officials are not aware of the effects caused by such a situation. And, in fact, this is a situation which causes concern and sympathy. Those with full-time jobs and who take up taxi driving as a part-time employment usually do so after their full day's work. In the circumstances, they are bound to be exhausted and inefficient in their driving. Their consequent lack of concentration may pose another traffic hazard on the public thoroughfares. They are a danger to themselves and to other road users because they may cause accidents, perhaps fatal accidents involving their passengers or other persons at any moment anywhere.

Mr Speaker, Sir, last year the Government launched a campaign to keep Singapore accident free. The Ministry of Communications has also frequently stressed on road safety. But surprisingly, nothing has been done in respect of such part-time taxi drivers who may endanger the lives of their passengers and other road users. On the other hand, because some taxis are taken up by these part-time taxi drivers, those genuine taxi drivers who depend on driving taxis for a living find that their livelihood is in great jeopardy. If they are unemployed, and cannot get any taxis to drive because there are more drivers than taxis, this situation induces the taxi owners to be more haughty and overbearing towards them and even exploit them, thus causing even greater hardship to them.

In view of this, Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to propose to the ROV that holders of taxi drivers' licences who have other forms of full-time employment and who drive taxis as a part-time job, or those who hold taxi driving licences but do not depend on taxi driving for a living, should not be allowed to renew their licences after expiry. I also propose that taxi owners who do not drive their own taxis should have their licences cancelled. This is to ensure that those who hold taxi licences but do not have taxis to drive have a chance to earn a living. If we can do this, we will be able to look after the livelihood of the taxi drivers more extensively and more fairly. Our policy should be to help the majority in need, and not to enrich those who are already well off.

One may read in the newspapers about complaints by some passengers. I have also received complaints from some passengers that when they hail an empty taxi, the taxi driver refuses to stop. We, of course, agree that severe action should be taken against those taxi drivers who refuse to stop their taxis without good reasons. But there are cases when taxi drivers do not stop their vehicles for some good reason. For example, when there is a change of shifts or when they are called by telephone to fetch some passenger somewhere, then they will not be able to stop their vehicles half-way to pick up other passengers. So when a complaint is made, the traffic authorities do not consider all these reasons. They invariably condemn these taxi drivers for the alleged offence of refusing to pick short-trip passengers. However, the taxi driver's argument is, "Since I did not stop the taxi at all how could I know that the passenger was going to take a short-journey?" People also accuse taxi drivers for refusing to pick up fares. But the drivers say, "We are earning a living on the road, so why should we refuse to pick up passengers without good reason?" In fact, their argument is quite reasonable. However, to ensure that there is no further misunderstanding or groundless blame against the taxi drivers and that no unnecessary trouble is caused to members of the public, why not let the ROV stipulate that whenever a taxi is unable to pick up a passenger along the way, a sign with the wording "Temporarily not for hire" should be conspicuously displayed on the taxi. I hope that the authorities concerned will consider my suggestion.

At a Parliament sitting last year, I said that suitable arrangements should be made on that side of the road opposite the special bus lanes to enable public vehicles which are not permitted to use the bus lanes to stop there to pick up passengers or to allow passengers to alight during busy hours. But the Minister in charge did not give me a direct answer. I would like to point out again that this regulation on bus lanes introduced by the Ministry of Communications is causing great inconvenience to taxi and bus drivers and passengers. In order to avoid in-convenience, many passengers have refused to travel by taxis and buses. Therefore, in order to suit the convenience of the passengers, some drivers have to risk the offence of stopping their vehicles on the side of the road where a yellow line is drawn.

Mr Speaker, Sir, traffic fines have increased following inflation. Moreover, implementation of the Points Demerit System may deprive these workers of their rice bowl at any moment. There- fore, I would appeal to the Minister again to reconsider the provision of suitable stops for the convenience of passengers and drivers of taxis and buses.

5.30 p.m.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Sir, on the question of buses emitting excessive smoke, steps have been taken to reduce this nuisance and hazard. All buses are now required to undergo monthly preventive maintenance at the bus depots where special attention is paid to rectify those buses with smoky exhausts. Smoke meters are now available in all the bus depots. Unfortunately, it would take some time before smoky buses are totally eradicated from our roads.

The problems involved can be fully appreciated if its causes are fully understood. Smoky exhausts can be caused by mechanical failure, such as faulty injectors or fuel pumps. These mechanical faults can be rectified during the preventive maintenance or whenever such cases are brought to the attention of the company. Unfortunately, there are other factors causing the buses to emit excessive smoke and they require some time to rectify. Excessive smoke can be emitted when buses are running with a full passenger load, and especially when going up an incline, not to mention when the bus is overloaded. Another cause is attributable to poor driving habits when gears are not changed in accordance with engine speed, or when excessive fuel is injected by heavy-footed drivers, thus resulting in incomplete combustion.

Regarding heavily loaded buses emitting excessive smoke, this problem can be stringently dealt with when more buses are available to meet the heavy peak-hour demand for public buses. As for bad driving habits, this will require a slow process of educating the drivers to change their habits.

Mr Speaker, Sir, on the other point raised by the Member for Anson earlier regarding irregular frequency, I would like to inform him that the frequency of bus services is now slightly better than previously, although there is still room for further improvement. There are now 1,500 buses operating daily compared to 1,400 buses operating in April last year. To further improve frequency, the company has taken the following steps.

Firstly, split shift work was introduced on the 10th of this month to put more buses on the road during peak hours. It is expected that about 60 additional buses would be put on the road under this scheme.

Secondly, a traffic research unit has been formed to monitor actual times required to complete a round-trip at various times of the day. When the results are known, existing time schedules will be changed, and the new ones strictly enforced.

Thirdly, enforcement squads of the company have also stepped up their enforcement measures.

As for the complaint of poor frequency especially in the rural areas, I would like to inform the Member that the company has placed an order for 81 short-wheel-based buses which would be suitable for use in these areas where the roads are too narrow for the jumbos.

Another step which the company is planning to take to improve frequency is to post traffic regulators at certain strategic points to regulate the timing of bus services. The enforcement officers will take down the timing and will also he empowered to withhold buses, if necessary, when they see more than one bus on the same service route arriving at the same spot at the same time. They are also to ensure that interruption of bus services is reduced to the minimum.

The Member for Anson also complained about oil spillage at the bus terminals. It is true that the bus terminals are not very clean due to oil smudges caused by the spillage of diesel fuel and cylinder oil as well as minor repairs carried out at the terminals. Action has already been taken to ensure that the fuel tanks are fixed with proper caps which are to be chained to the tank to prevent loss. For the information of the Member, all new buses purchased after January 1974 have been fitted with irremovable fuel tank caps. As for the oil spillage due to oil leakage from the gear boxes and rear axle, this can only be eradicated when the maintenance standard of the buses is raised to a higher level with the introduction of the schedule preventive scheme expected to be introduced sometime in June this year.

The Member also touched on the poor condition of buses on the road. Although the general condition of buses has improved quite considerably, it is regrettably true that a few buses which are not very clean or are dirty after a heavy shower are still seen on the road. But it must be appreciated that a bus, dirtied as a result of a heavy shower, needs time to be cleaned, and other than taking it off the road, it has to keep to its roster schedule. However, the company has ordered two automatic washing machines, and they are now being installed.

The Member also touched on broken windows, torn seats and leaking roofs. These problems are expected to be rectified sometime this year, presumably in three to four months' time, when more buses will be repaired under a special scheme whereby buses could be farmed out for repairs by reliable contractors. Perhaps the Member must have read in the newspapers that on average about 3.000 seats are replaced by the company every month. In this instance, the bus company has also launched a special scheme known as "Friends of SBS" to encourage public-spirited commuters to help the company reduce damage to bus seats caused by vandalism.

As for the Member's comment that the spare parts are "all over the place", I would like to inform the Member that 1 visit the bus company regularly, and so far I have not come across the situation that he has described. If he would let me know exactly where he has seen it, I would be very grateful and I can assure him that I will look into that personally.

As for the other points raised, the Minister for Communications will answer.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, regarding the spare parts, the Minister of State can see this at Upper Aljunied Road.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the House has already been fully informed about the criticisms and complaints against the Singapore Bus Service Ltd. after listening to two Members who are deeply involved with the affairs of SBS. Firstly, the Member for Boon Teck has admitted that he had been keeping quiet for the last two years because of the overwhelming problems that confronted him. He is a member of the Bus Services Reorganisation Committee which was formed in October 1973 just when the Singapore Bus Service Ltd, was established.

5.45 p.m.

My colleague, the Minister of State, has just now tried to answer the criticisms, and he is best suited to do so as he is concurrently the Chairman of the Executive Committee of the SBS since August 1974. The complaints that have been listed out by the Members for Sembawang and Anson and of smoky exhaust by the Member for Katong are not new complaints. They have been voiced in this House for quite some years. Great efforts have been made to improve the situation and, of course, some of them are hardy enough to persist. But we can assure them and the public that every effort is being made, as far as is humanly possible, to put things right. So I do not propose to go further into the matter as I shall, before winding up the debate on this particular subhead on the Registry of Vehicles, have something more to say, not only on SBS but of public transport in general.

I will now attempt to answer the various matters raised by Members in this House. The Member for Anson complained about spilling by lorries carrying earth, sand, etc., which has been the cause of a number of accidents. I can assure him that the matter will be looked into, and it would appear that this comes under the purview of the Ministry of the Environment. We shall look further into this matter and, if necessary, introduce legislation to control this problem.

The Member for Katong has something to say about the work of our enforcement squad. He mentioned, in particular, heavy goods vehicles from Malaysia emitting smoke and infringing traffic regulations in Singapore. I would like to say two things. I myself have instructed the ROV to look into this matter some months ago, and it is being looked into. But may I just say that there are certain difficulties because of the shortage of staff in respect of this particular department. He has received a written answer (Hansard, Vol. 34, No. 6, cols. 461-2) from my colleague, the Minister for Home Affairs, which was tabled only a few days ago, wherein it was indicated that the ROV enforcement squad, which has an approved establishment of 67, has only 42 personnel. The ROV enforcement squad is actually an offshoot of the Traffic Police in the Ministry of Home Affairs. So we have, therefore, only 60% of authorised strength. Despite this strained staffing position, the ROV enforcement squad has been able to maintain a reasonably high level of performance, not just on smoky exhausts but other duties as well.

During the period January 1974 to February 1975, the squad as a whole submitted no less than an average of 1,600 reports monthly. Over the last two months, January and February of this year, the enforcement squad made 4,200 and 3,400 reports respectively, which averages about 100 reports per man. In these circumstances, I hope it will be appreciated that they are stretching themselves far and wide, and there is always a limit to what a human being can do I can assure him that we will continue to enforce the regulations as far as it is humanly possible before getting a complaint from the Member for Sembawang who says that our enforcement squad is a bit too strict on taxi drivers. So we can never please everybody. If we attempt to please A, B complains.

Mr Conceicao: Please the right people!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: The Member for Sembawang has this to say about taxi drivers: that in view of the fact that taxis have got to undergo a six-month inspection, therefore it would be unnecessary to check on smoky exhausts. I think the Member is quite aware that taxis are very heavily used and if they are not well maintained even after the six-month inspection, then probably within a week or a month they are very likely to have smoky exhausts again. I am afraid that, despite the regular six-month inspection of taxis, if it is reported that taxi XYZ is found to be emitting visible smoke unreasonably, then it will have to report in again, not immediately but after a bit of time. And this is where, after getting the summons, the taxi driver goes to the repair shop, gets it well done up and turns up at the ROV. And, of course, it passes the test. So it cannot be said that it is unreasonable to pull them up. But we are happy that the taxi driver, after getting the summons to appear for an inspection as a result of the complaint of a smoky exhaust, has put matters right.

I now come to the complaint of the Member for Thomson. He says he has experienced difficulty in getting taxis. I can confirm that this has been the position for some time. It is true. I do not deny that. But there may be certain reasons for the shortage. I think we can do no better than to look at this morning's newspaper. The Member for Aljunied had occasion to censure certain members of Comfort for failing to let out their taxis to relief drivers. All taxis could be used for two shifts. But some Comfort members prefer to sit on their back side and not let their taxis out, except for certain undesirable practices. So there is an artificial shortage of taxis created by taxi owners who do not wish to have their taxis operating on two shifts or even three shifts.

In reply to that, I would say this. We have agreed that the NTUC Comfort should have all new licences for taxis. But at the moment they are to get only an additional 200 taxis on the road. In my view I think there should be more taxis. For some reason or other, NTUC prefers not to have too many taxis operating because in 1971, after the bus services reorganisation, taxi business was not so good so that the taxi drivers suffered a drop in their income. So NTUC does not want that to happen again. I would persuade the NTUC to expand their fleet as quickly as possible, because all available new licences will be given to NTUC Comfort. I think the remedy is in the hands of the NTUC Comfort. Of course there are times when there is a change of shift, from Shift I to Shift II, sometime between 3.30 p.m, and 5.00 p.m. It is very likely that the Member for Thomson hailed a taxi when it was changing shift, and so the driver said, "Sorry, I am on my way home."

Mr Ang Nam Piau: (In Mandarin):Point of clarification, Sir. The complaint that taxis fail to stop when hailed does not come from me alone. The Members for Paya Lebar and Jurong also had the same experience. The Minister can ask them. So it is not just something that happened to me. Moreover, it is not that such incidents happened just during shift changing. Sometimes it happened at 2.00 p.m, and sometimes in the morning. So those occasions could not occur during the time when the drivers were changing shifts.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am grateful for the clarification. I have agreed that there appears to be a shortage of taxis, and I am saying to NTUC Comfort, "Please get on with it." I am only trying to give certain possible reasons why if you hail a taxi, the driver ignores you, and that is because of a change of shift.

The Member for Aljunied has quite a lot to say because he is directly involved in the management of NIUC Comfort. I am pleased to say that he has made a great contribution in the solving of our transport problem. He has raised the question why the Registry of Vehicles continues to allow those who are not in full-time employment as taxi drivers to renew their taxi licences. According to our records, as at January this year there were a total of 14,390 licensed taxi drivers as against 5,174 taxis. Based on the ratio of 2 1/2 drivers to one taxi, assuming that each taxi would be used for two shifts - he himself has admitted publicly that not all taxis are being used for two shifts - we need only 12,910 taxi drivers for these 5,174 taxis. There would, therefore, be theoretically a surplus of 1,480 taxi drivers' licences.

I think he has a point there when he said that if a person who has a full-time employment holds a taxi driver's licence, he is depriving a man who would like to be a taxi driver by profession. The Member must be aware that since September last year the Registry of Vehicles has been holding monthly meetings, and the people who are invited to attend these monthly meetings include representatives from the Traffic Police, the Singapore Taxi Transport Association, the Singapore Taxi Drivers' Association and NTUC Comfort. These meetings have been held to discuss matters concerning taxi operation, the conduct of drivers and other related problems. I would, therefore, ask the Member if he could be good enough to raise these issues at these monthly meetings and perhaps a happy solution could be brought about.

6.00 p.m.

The Member next raised the query about not having got an answer from me last year on why Scheme A buses are not given the privilege to use bus lanes during the peak hours. I thought the reason was given, but may I now say so in full. Scheme A vehicles consist not only of school buses but also vehicles like mini-buses and lorries, and under this scheme the Adult Workers Contract Licences are issued to the operators. Unlike the SBS and Scheme B buses, Scheme A buses operate in such a way as to pick up and set down passengers at certain designated points and not along public roads. Since we introduced the bus lanes as a new measure from February last year we could not throw open the reserved bus lanes for all types of vehicles. At the moment, SBS buses and Scheme B buses number 2,580.

When the park and ride scheme comes into operation in May, about 88 shuttle buses will also use these bus lanes. I would prefer allowing the park and ride scheme and the area licensing scheme to operate first before we review further as to whether Scheme A buses may be permitted to use bus lanes. I hope this answer would satisfy the Member for Aljunied - that the matter will be considered at the right time.

I now come to the points raised by the Member for Anson who wishes to know that with the introduction of the reserved bus lanes how many people have been called up for contravening the regulations. I have some figures here. Up to the end of February 1975, that is to say, for the last 13 months since it came into operation, no less than 2,700 persons were issued with written warnings for unauthorised use of bus lanes during the restrictive hours. We have not taken any action because we felt that we should give it some time before applying the heavy hand. As everybody knows, since the 1st day of this month the points demerit system has come into operation, and anyone who enters the reserved bus lanes during the restrictive hours will be penalised with four demerit points. I think this should be a sufficient penalty, and if they commit the same offence thrice over they will be suspended and their vehicles might even be expropriated. So we will allow the points demerit system to operate to show the efficacy of the reserved bus lanes.

Finally, I come to the park and ride scheme raised by the Member for Anson. He has misgivings about this scheme. 1 have already indicated in my reply to the hon. Member for Toa Payoh that we believe that the implementation of the park and ride scheme and the area licensing scheme will have a significant effect in reducing traffic congestion on our roads.

In conclusion, Sir, it may be recalled that at this time last year, during the debate on the estimates for the Registry of Vehicles for the financial year l974-75, I had indicated, as reported in Hansard, of 20th March, 1974 [Vol. 33, col. 466] as follows:

`Measures have been and will continue to be taken to provide an adequate public bus service, supplemented where necessary with other feasible forms of public or group transport. However, a public transport system cannot operate efficiently if it is not protected from the congestion caused by private cars in central areas, on high-density routes and in peak-hour traffic. If the traffic congestion cannot be eased through voluntary means, such as staggered work-hours and the formation of car pools, then physical constraints will have to be introduced to obtain a mandatory change. The introduction of reserved bus lanes is one step in this direction.'

Further, I said, at col. 467:

`It has already been announced that a study is underway to consider a park-and-ride scheme, whereby commuters could park their cars in fringe car parks and take a shuttle bus into or out of the Central Business District during peak periods.

Furthermore, measures to curb the rise in private car ownership are also under study.'

Mr Speaker, Sir, what is the position today? Firstly, as regards SBS, we have already moved into SBS - a Government Team of Officials which at one stage comprised as many as 140 officers but now reduced to 10() - to reorganise and strengthen its management since the end of July 1974. At the time of the secondment of the Government Team of Officials, it was indicated that it might take two to three years to achieve the objective of providing a clean and efficient public bus service. Although the services of SBS have been improved, however, much remains to be done. After the Government Team of Officials has been in SBS for seven months, the problems to be overcome are indeed greater than at first envisaged. Therefore, it has been stated in the President's Address, [Hansard of 21st February, 1975, col. 6], and I quote:

`The bus service is improving. More improvement can be made in another three to five years.'

The intention is clear - our Government, through our Team of Officials in SBS, is determined to raise the standard and the quality of SBS as a public bus service befitting a modern city like Singapore.

In our drive to reduce traffic congestion we have, since July last year, started a six-month national campaign to encourage more people to adopt staggered work hours and to encourage the formation of more car pools. Thanks to the cooperation from all sides, we have achieved reasonable success in both respects today.

In the case of staggered work hours, over 120.000 workers are now adopting staggered work hours, made up of 60,000 workers employed in 1,138 establishments in the private sector and a similar number of workers in the public sector.

As for car pools we have established a Car Pool Management Unit in the Registry of Vehicles at Middle Road in January this year to match car pools through the computer. To-date, more than 5.400 registration forms have been distributed and 316 car pools have been formed, involving 229 adults and 768 school children. In addition, 84 privately-formed car pools involving 417 persons have been registered with our Car Pool Management Unit. Soon, 100,000 car owners who will be receiving their notices for renewal of road tax by post will be receiving car pools publicity brochures as well.

We are now on the threshold of implementing two traffic management measures to drastically reduce the present traffic congestion, namely, the park and ride shuttle bus scheme which is scheduled to come into operation in May, that is l 1/2 months from now, and the area licensing scheme which will come into effect a month later in June.

It can now be disclosed that the World Bank has indicated great interest in our traffic management measures and are already in the midst of a research study to assess the effects of these traffic management measures. The interest shown is because we are probably the only city in the world to have so many traffic management measures to try to control traffic congestion and to improve the public bus transport.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Hear, hear!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: The World Bank research studies have already conducted interviews with a number of non-car owning households which were completed in November last year, and interviews with car owning households are now in progress.

Mr Speaker, Sir, what has been the effect of Government's policy to discourage the rapid growth of car ownership, ever since the Road Transport Action Committee was established in October 1973? The figures of the number of new cars registered for the three-month period, December to February, for the three years are most revealing. From December 1972 to February 1973, the number of new cars registered was 5.068. The year following. December 1973 to February 1974, the number was 4,277, a drop of 16%. From December 1974 to February 1975, the latest figures, the number of new cars registered was 1,978, a drop of 54%. And in view of the latest increase in road taxes announced on 3rd March by my colleague, the Minister for Finance, who is unrepentant, we can expect the downward trend to continue.

6.15 p.m.

Let me now quote a news report published in the Straits Times of 15th March, just a few days ago, on page 4, which reads as follows:

`Day the car must give way

Geneva, Fri. - Swiss President Pierre Graber yesterday opened Geneva's annual motor show - Europe's first major international display of 1975 - by warning that governments might eventually have to restrict the movement of cars.

Speaking at the opening of a show at which manufacturers are presenting the largest selection of new models for many years, Mr Graber said that in an evolution towards greater concern with human social conditions "the citizen must know spontaneously how to appreciate situations in which individual interests must give way to those of the national community."

And if, God forbid, priority national needs should one day call for a limitation of circulation of automobiles or any other measure, no one would then regard it as an intolerable sacrifice.

"For in a society where humanism regains fully its rights, the automobile should not constitute an end in itself," Mr Graber said. - Reuter.'

Sir, whereas governments elsewhere may still be hesitant whether or not to restrict the movement of cars, we in Singapore have already decided to do so. Being an island city State of only 225 square miles and having to support a teeming population of 2.2 million people, we cannot afford just to sit tight and do nothing.

An hon. Member: Action.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Action, quite right. We do hope that given the full cooperation of all car users, we can improve the standards and quality of our public bus service and also reduce traffic congestion on our roads by reducing the high growth of private cars in the quickest possible time.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, in view of the Minister's patient and detailed reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting -

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 2120.

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead FAA 2270.

The Chairman: The Member for Punggol has indicated that he is not moving his amendments.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 8101 (The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Sia Khoon Seong.).

Sir, from the Development Estimates, I notice that a sum of $848,900 is being provided just to undertake a study of the Mass Transit System. It seems to be a fantastic amount of money just to make a study of the system, when nothing has been implemented as far as the system is concerned.

Sir, it will be much better if we do not make a study of the system - in fact, Phase II of the system. Our main aim is to reduce the number of vehicles on the road at any cost. The Mass Transit System will not serve much purpose. Once our bus transport system is greatly improved, we do not require a Mass Transit System. Our island is too small and, therefore, this system will not be feasible, perhaps even worse, it will not be profitable. Therefore, I see no necessity for this amount of money to be spent on the system, even with the help of the United Nations. This amount of money can be used in a more worthwhile manner if it is redirected to a more productive use where the citizens can benefit directly. The Mass Transit System will mostly benefit the motorist, and it is not the motoring public who should benefit or even pampered.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

6.23 p.m.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, unlike the Member for Anson, I feel that the Mass Rapid Transit System is absolutely vital at this stage. It was stated in the President's Address at the opening of this session of Parliament that the MRT would only be introduced in the late 1980s. I think that is rather too slow a pace, particularly now when a squeeze is being tightened on car owners, more and more people can be expected to commute by public transport.

Earlier on, the Minister did show a lot of confidence over the improvements envisaged in the SBS operations. While I am not trying to say that I do not share his confidence, I think the problems in three years' time will be greater than the problems today, as far as the demand for public transport is concerned. It is like the dog chasing its own tail. True, there will be improvements in the SBS operations. But will the improvements be effective or sufficient enough to cope with the increased problems that are going to be faced because of the heavier demand for public transport? As I said earlier, with the squeeze now being tightened on car owners, we can expect more and more car owners commuting by public transport. On top of that, every year thousands of school-leavers are joining the ranks of office-workers. They will also help to increase the demand on public transport. That being the position, I am just wondering whether we could not quicken the pace to get the Mass Rapid Transit System introduced, if not by this decade then, at least, in the early 1980s and not in the late 1980s.

Sir, I would like the Minister to inform this House of the latest position regarding the second phase of the Feasibility Study on the MRT. I hope to hear of a very good progress report - that everything is going fine, and that we will be able to meet the target date much earlier. I hope that will be the kind of answer he gives. Of course, the Minister is always confident. This is one big challenge ahead of him, and with his usual confidence, perhaps he will make it.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, earlier on the Member for Sembawang did raise the matter of the Mass Transit Study and I have indicated that this is probably the right time to reply.

Mr Conceicao: Reply to me.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: In passing. The other two Members, the Member for Anson and the Member for Moulmein, did right by saying that they want to talk on this subject. I happen to share the views expressed by the Member for Moulmein, and I hope I am still brimming with enthusiasm.

Sir, Members of the House will recall that at the sitting of Parliament on 28th August, 1974, the Report in Brief (Misc. Paper No. 3 of 1974) was tabled covering the findings and recommendations of Phase I of the Mass Transit Study. I am happy to report that the initial work on Phase II of the Study, which will incorporate more detailed economic and financial evaluation of the recommended system, is underway. Like the earlier phase, Phase II of the Study will be carried out by a team of consultants, supported by Government counterpart staff appointed by the Government and the World Bank. It is expected that this phase of the Study will be completed by the end of this year.

For a Mass Transit System of the type and scale being contemplated, the full impact of the system must be studied in order to evaluate the feasibility of the scheme. Such initial feasibility studies usually cost about 1% of the total cost. Assuming a conservative estimate of $1,000 million, or the American term of $1 billion, for the system, the cost for the feasibility studies would be around $10 million. But the total cost of Phases I and II of the Singapore Mass Transit Study is estimated at only $4 1/2 million, which is less than 1/2% of the total cost, of which our Government's contribution is about $2.1 million, the rest being provided under the United Nations Development Programme. The Member for Anson said that it would be a fantastic sum to spend. I would say this to him. It would be penny wise pound foolish not to incur the expense of a Feasibility Study before embarking on a $1,000 million project. No prudent Government would choose to avoid such an expenditure. The Mass Rapid Transit System proposed is intended to be a long-term solution for Singapore's public transport needs. Travel analyses carried out have indicated that within the next 15 years public transport demand would be doubled what it is today. This is the result of a combination of factors of growing population, rising affluence, increasing employment and social opportunities.

6.30 p.m.

With the present Government policy of discouraging car ownership and its usage, the effect could only result in Singaporeans relying even more on public transport. From observations of bus operations, it is clear that the alternative of public transport, based solely on buses operating on surface streets in mixed traffic, will deteriorate and cannot be a workable solution to cater for the much greater transport demand in the future. A mass transit system is therefore ore recommended to support the development envisaged for Singapore.

It is not correct to say that the mass transit system will benefit mostly the motorists. The bulk of its users, if built, is expected to come from the non-vehicle owning trip-makers who have no alternative but to rely on public transport, and to that extent motorists will also use the mass transit system. The number of car trips will be reduced, and hence free road facilities for more essential traffic. During the interim period, until we do have a mass transit system, Singapore will have to rely on the present system of public transport based on buses.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, if the mass transit system does not work, what will happen to the money spent?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, let us wait for the feasibility study.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $56,409,450 for Head 0 ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $74,236,700 for Head 0 ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Head P -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head P be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1107 (The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Ivan Baptist and Ho Kah Leong).

Sir, in far too many streets, rubbish collection at bin centres has been so badly done that these places have become breeding grounds for rats, flies, cockroaches and countless other pests. Further, the nauseating smell emanating from these centres is quite often unbearable. Why cannot the Ministry supply more bins and ensure that the rubbish is collected more often?

There are also quite a number of other bin centres where rubbish has not been collected regularly and the bins are left unattended. The Minister will say that there is a shortage of manpower and vehicles. Sometimes, you can find reports of this nature with photographs in our afternoon and morning newspapers. Can the Minister do something to make sure that rubbish is being collected regularly? Furthermore, in some places when the daily rubbish is being trucked along, dirty water and rubbish spill all over the road. This leaves an awful stench all the way and passers-by have to bear with this "aroma".

Sir, I would like to know whether the present number of incinerators are adequate to burn up all the increased volume of rubbish. If not, additional incinerators should be built to burn up the increased volume of rubbish.

Sir, I want to know how successful is the prohibition of smoking in the buses. I find a good number of people still smoke in buses. Can the Minister give some facts and figures on this subject?

The Chairman: Mr Baptist.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, I have submitted a question for oral answer, and so I am not speaking on this amendment.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to ask the Minister two questions. One is the selection, of sites for hawker centres and the number of stalls. We know that the basic policy of the Government in respect of hawkers is to build hawker centres to accommodate licensed roadside hawkers. This i5 not a bad policy at all.

But there is still something wanting in the choice of site and the number of stalls to be provided in the hawker centres. Members of Parliament have no say at all in this matter, even if they have such problems arising in theirs Contituencies. I feel that since Members of Parliament are in a better position to understand their own constituents, they should be invited to air their views in the matter of the number of hawker stalls and the site for hawker centres. If MPs arc not allowed any say at all, then at least they should be consulted SO as to avoid the selection of a wrong or unsuitable site for a hawker centre. An erroneous decision usually results in a lot of complaints being brought to the attention of the MPs concerned.

Sir, the next point I wish to raise is about hawker inspectors and environmental public health inspectors. Some Members have in the past few days made complaints about discourtesy on the part of civil servants towards members of the public. Here I would like to give a few instances to illustrate the discourtesy and harassment on the part of public health inspectors and hawker inspectors. These public servants feel that because they have the power to issue summonses, they continue to issue summonses until the shopkeepers and hawkers succumb. Most shopkeepers and hawkers are very law-abiding citizens. They are conscious of the health regulations, but during peak hours of business the place is dirtied by the customers. So during peak hours they do not have the time to clean up the place and thus open themselves to summonses.

Recently I received many complaints of this nature. These hawkers complained that the inspectors are fussy and unreasonable or even try to be difficult with the people concerned by issuing summonses indiscriminately. I think the Minister will agree with me that in places like coffee shops and markets, it is quite impossible to keep the whole place spick and span at all times. Therefore, public health inspectors and hawker inspectors should be sympathetic, considerate and reasonable. If at the end of the day's business the place is not cleaned, then perhaps the hawker and health inspectors may be justified in issuing summonses. Nothing can then be said against them. So I hope the Minister can instruct the hawker inspectors and health inspectors, who come under his control, not to behave like overlords ruling over the heads of the hawkers and members of the public. They should be reasonable in issuing summonses. Otherwise, they will only increase their occupational hazards.

The Minister for the Environment (Mr Lim Kim San): Sir, the Member for Anson is repeating what he said in previous Budget sessions, i.e, the unsatisfactory collection of rubbish. I have replied to him in detail during the last Budget session, and therefore I am not going to take too much time of the House by going over the grounds again. But let me remind the House that rubbish in Singapore is collected regularly and at least once a day. This is one of the few big cities in the world where rubbish is collected daily. On the average the Ministry collects 1,200 tons of refuse daily and our trucks cover 260 routes each and make 400 trips per day.

On the question of refuse bins, it is not whether there are enough or not enough bins. It is a question of whether members of the public do make correct use of the facilities at bin centres. On occasions members of the public throw refuse around bin centres instead of putting the refuse into the bins. This, of course, would give the Member for Anson the impression that rubbish has been left behind. There are occasions when rubbish is piled up at bin centres. These occasions are few and when they arise, it is due to the breakdown of the collecting truck. But, once information is received by the Ministry that a refuse truck has broken down, another truck will be sent to do the collection.

Sir, on the question of bad smell coming from trucks carrying refuse and of spillage, I can say that situation is gradually improving. The Member for Anson probably had the unfortunate experience of driving behind a very old truck that sprang a leak. We are replacing all these old trucks with leak-proof trucks so that, in future, if he should be driving behind one of these trucks he will not be able to smell any, thing at all.

6.45 p.m.

The next question is incinerators. We dispose of our refuse largely by dumping them in -

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Changi.

Mr Lim Kim San: No. In Tampines Road. We tip this refuse largely over dumping grounds outside the city. At the moment they are adequate enough to take 1,200 tons of refuse daily. For the information of the House, I would just like to say that we are planning to build an incinerator of 1,200 tons capacity per day, and it is expected to be operational by 1978.

I am not able to give the Member for Anson facts and figures on people who have been caught smoking in buses. If he wants such detailed information, he can send in a question for oral answer. What I know is that enforcement action is taken to see that the sign "No Smoking" in buses is strictly observed.

Coming to the Member for Jurong, he complained that the inspectors are very hard on the hawkers and are issuing summonses indiscriminately. I cannot accept that. There are certain procedures to be followed, and our inspectors are told to adhere strictly to them before they issue their summonses. Usually a summons is issued only after a warning has been given. Knowing how irresponsible some hawkers can be, the situation would certainly deteriorate if we are lax in enforcing the rule of cleanliness among our hawkers. As it were, we have already achieved a certain standard of cleanliness and I would hate to see it deteriorate. Once it does, then we will have a tough time restoring it to our present high standard.

I can assure the Member that we do train our health inspectors to be polite, but firm, with members of the public. If Members receive complaints from hawkers that the inspectors from the Ministry have been very rigid and rude, I would ask them to listen to the other side of the story. In instances where complaints of rudeness have been brought to my attention, I always make it a point to carry out a thorough investigation. You will find that there are always two sides to a story.

What I dislike is the implied threat in the Member's statement with regard to the behaviour of health inspectors. If I am not mistaken, he wants the health inspector to be more polite, otherwise the consequences would be disastrous. Let me warn those who attempt to take the law into their own hands and hurt health inspectors or public servants in the course of their duty. They will be severely dealt with when caught and we will do everything possible to see that they are caught. After all the inspectors are doing their duty, and it has been impressed upon them that they must be polite but firm. It is only this firmness that can bring about the desired results.

With regard to the question of consulting Members in the design of hawker centres, the Department does from time to time seek the views of Members. But I think Members will agree with me that when it comes to detailed planning the staff of the Department who are professionals are in a better position to know the requirements. Of course, we would be very fortunate to be able to find the most suitable place for a hawker centre and to be able to provide more than enough stall-space for hawkers in the vicinity, but the ideal is not always possible. There are financial limitations and space limitations, but wherever possible we will consult hon. Members. I must stress here again that the final decision rests with my Ministry because in building any structure not only one department is concerned but many others. It is only the professionals at the job who will be able to give advice which is not only suitable but also in keeping with the regulations.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to clarify. What I am saying is that Members of Parliament should be consulted in regard to the site of the hawker centre and the number of stalls. If Members' views are sought, I would be very grateful. We do not want a situation in which Members of Parliament actually supervise the construction of the site. That is not what I am asking.

In regard to the question of hawker inspectors, although the Minister has said that they have been instructed to be polite in the performance of their duties, very often they forget about the need to be polite. So they become very harsh with the hawkers. For example, during the peak hours of business in a market, a vegetable hawker may have dropped one leaf of vegetable on the ground and the hawker inspector comes round and say, "There you are. Pick it up, otherwise I will give you a summons." Again, some inspectors may require a stallholder in a coffee shop to sweep the place at a time when there are so many customers around, or during the peak hours. This action is unreasonable. Sir, you may be aware of the belief that if you sweep the floor when there are a lot of patrons in the coffee shop, you will lose business. Under the circumstances there should be some flexibility and understanding. If the hawker inspectors and health inspectors are polite, they can expect politeness in return. Courtesy begets courtesy, and there will be no unhappiness and unfortunate cases.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Minister complained that I have been repeating my complaint about rubbish again and again. If the Minister had taken action in clearing the rubbish, then I would be mad to bring up this complaint again. The population has increased, so has the rubbish. The dustbins that have been provided are too small and the rubbish spills on to the floor. It is most probable that there are not enough lorries and men to clear the rubbish. Therefore, they have to clear the rubbish at least twice or thrice a day.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, as I said, I do not want to take too much time to go over the ground that I had covered last year. There are some places where rubbish is removed three times a day, and generally bin centres are kept clean. I am quite satisfied that we have enough lorries now and the department is well organised to keep Singapore clean. We keep the place clean regularly. Otherwise the Member would complain of the "aroma" not only in odd places but all over Singapore.

I have already mentioned that in most cases we will seek the views of hon. Members whenever there is a plan to build a hawker centre. Their views will be sought but, of course, the final details have to be worked out by members of my staff.

The Member for Jurong mentioned a case where just because a hawker dropped a leaf of vegetable, the health inspector issued him with a summons. If the health inspector from my Ministry had been that inconsiderate, I would have received many many more complaints than I have received so far.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I am not satisfied with the explanation of the Minister. Last Saturday when, I went to my Branch Office in my constituency at 7.00 am., I saw a lot of rubbish piled up. I was very angry. But what could I do then? The smell was there and I could not get anything done at 7.00 am. The Minister says that rubbish is cleared every day. I must ask him to go there and see it for himself. The Minister just sits in the office. He must go round and see for himself. Then he will get the information.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, I do go round the constituencies. I only want to ask the Member this question: how many times did he find his place full of rubbish? Probably once in a few months. Is it an everyday occurrence? If it is, he should have written to my Ministry and I will see to it that something is done. If it is an everyday occurrence, I wonder how is it that he can sit on it for so long.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I am not objecting to that. But during the festive period there are lots of rubbish. He must consider this factor.

Mr Lim Kim San: That is exactly what I said. Sir, we clean the place regularly. On normal days the place is clean. But when he talks about festival days, I can understand the situation because there is an accumulation of rubbish during such seasons, and this will take time to clear.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not want to prolong the debate; otherwise the Minister will get angry! I therefore beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.00 p.m.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head P be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BCA 1111.

Sir, we all know that land is limited in Singapore and we cannot allocate too much land for use as graveyards or cemeteries. There is, therefore, a need to change the people's customs and traditions on burials. The people should be encouraged to adopt cremation as a funeral rite, because cremation being economical both in cost and space and cleaner merits active encouragement.

I do not know whether our Minister, who is well known for campaigns, will be prepared to launch a nation-wide campaign to encourage the adoption of cremation as the standard funeral rite. In line with this campaign we should also build more crematoria and columbaria, which should be distributed evenly instead of concentrating them in a certain area. With proper distribution of crematoria, it will be more convenient for the people. There should also be a proper place for the columbaria that the ashes could be kept in accordance with the different religious rites.

The next question is in regard to funeral parlours. At present, many people are living in flats as land is so limited. There should be more funeral parlours to serve the people. The Government should not only build funeral parlours but also allow private enterprises to build more funeral parlours. I understand that a certain association has applied for planning approval for the construction of a crematorium and a funeral parlour, but the application was turned down. I would like to know why this application was rejected.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, it is a good suggestion that we build more crematoria all over Singapore. There are plans for their construction but they have to be sent to the Building Control Division for planning approval. We must find suitable sites. Similarly, permission will be given for the establishment of funeral parlours all over Singapore. But hon. Members must realise that if funeral parlours are set up in crowded areas, the neighbouring residents might find it inconvenient and might not like to live next to funeral parlours. Therefore, suitable sites have to be carefully considered for the setting up of funeral parlours. Anyway, the matter is under consideration. Once it is being decided where these suitable sites are, an announcement will be made.

With regard to the question of a campaign to further the adoption of cremation, I am glad to inform hon. Members that the idea of cremation has caught on. Latest figures show that about 41 % of the dead in Singapore were cremated. Of course, we will keep on encouraging cremation. A columbarium will be built at Mount Vernon where the cremated ashes can be kept.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head P be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEA 1109.

I am raising this matter just to ask the Minister to give us information, for the enlightenment of this House and perhaps the public, regarding the functions of the Training and Education Department. Who are the people being trained, and what are the purposes?

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, the Training and Education Department of my Ministry has not received any publicity and the public is not quite aware of what it is doing. So I am glad to have this opportunity to clarify the role of the Training and Education Department in the Ministry of the Environment.

The Training and Education Department of my Ministry was set up to train personnel of the Ministry, in particular, the field staff, and to educate the public on environmental public health matters. These are some of the courses: Orientation Course for Assistant Public Health Inspectors, Water Pollution Control Courses, Refresher Courses in Public Health Law Enforcement, Technicians Sanitary Course for technical staff of the Sewerage Department, Sewage Treatment Works Operators Course for the technical staff attached to the Sewage Treatment Works and Industrial Waterworks, Intensive Course on Sewerage and Sanitation for technicians preparing for Departmental examinations.

There are also the Royal Society of Health courses for Public Health Inspectors. This is quite an important course because they are awarded certificates. This is carried out in conjunction with the Royal Society of Health in England. In 1973, 28 Public Health Inspectors underwent this course, and 34 in 1974. This year 39 students are attending this course. There is also a Royal Society of Health course on Air Pollution Control. Eighteen students are now doing this course. All in all, for 1974 we have a total of more than 200 students undergoing the various courses in the Ministry. Students from other statutory boards or government departments also enrol in the courses appropriate to their duties. As I said just now, these courses are run to train our inspectors in law enforcement, in their attitude and behaviour towards the public, and also in their approach to work. So these courses are a very necessary adjunct to the Ministry because they teach members of the staff not only the technical know-how but also the way to carry out their work effectively.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I am very grateful to the Minister for his interesting outline of the educational work of that section of his Ministry. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the names of Messrs Ng Kah Ting, Ho See Beng, Teong Eng Siong, Sim Boon Woo, P. Govindaswamy and Cheong Yuen Chee -

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head P be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BGA 1111.

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting has indicated that he is not moving.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head P be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BGA 1111.

Sir, since the Ministry of the Environment came under the charge of the present Minister, it has achieved progress at "a thousand miles a day", so to speak. This is an undeniable fact. Therefore, we should praise his Ministry for its work. When praise is due we should give praise, and similarly when criticism is deserved we should duly criticise.

However, there have been complaints against hawker inspectors about their conflict or misunderstanding with hawkers. Just now the Minister said that the Ministry of the Environment is conducting educational courses, including a course on human relations. This is very good. I hope there is no training course on Tae-kwon-Do, because that is not proper. These hawker inspectors can work very well but they lack experience. They lack tolerance as well as good and patient manners needed to carry out their work. Sometimes in dealing with hawkers they behave like detectives trying to catch criminals. I have personally seen this behaviour on many occasions. What I would like to raise here is about the licensed hawkers who sometimes commit certain minor offences. I would like to ask whether the hawker inspectors are empowered to confiscate their goods, when they can get the court to issue summons to the offending hawkers.

One such incident occurred to a fish hawker in my constituency. Having tendered for some fish at about 7.00 a.m, or 8.00 am, at the Jurong Central Fish Market one day, he returned to put up his stall. In doing so he had to put the fish on the five-foot way. Unaware to him, a hawker inspector came up and said that his fish were causing an obstruction to the pedestrian walk. He then confiscated all his fish. Thus, his capital was gone. This kind of incident is not really serious. It is a minor incident and we should give humane consideration to such minor cases, otherwise they might damage the good reputation of our Government. I would urge the Minister to pay particular attention to such incidents in order to prevent them from happening again.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, undoubtedly the Government has taken an active part in improving the welfare of hawkers. For instance, in recent years the Government has built a number of hawker centres which provide modern healthy amenities for them to carry out their trade. In previous years a nation-wide registration of all hawkers was carried out and temporary licences were issued so that they could have fixed sites to carry on their trade.

Although the Hawkers Department has improved the welfare of licensed hawkers, the unlicensed hawkers how, ever are still facing great difficulties. Those who engage in hawking as a means of livelihood are mainly elderly people. Some of them set up their stalls by the road side selling cigarettes, newspapers or magazines in order to earn a little to help maintain the meagre livelihood of their household.

7.15 p.m.

There was a hawker who was selling putu mayam, which is an Indian variety of bee hoon. This putu mayam is very popular among the poorer people because it is very cheap. These putu mayam hawkers usually carry baskets of putu mayam on their heads when they hawk. Newspaper vendors, however, sell newspapers by going from house to house on bicycles. These hawkers are not registered with the Hawkers Department and are therefore not issued with any licences at all. This makes their trade illegal. When spotted by a hawker inspector, they will be issued with a summons. But if they were to stop their trade, they will have no means to earn a livelihood. Sometimes they are served with about five, six or even 10 summonses in a month. In my constituency a few such hawkers have been served with just such a number of summonses per month. Some hawker inspectors even confiscate their goods. As the Member for Bras Basah mentioned just now, they take away the putu mayam or the newspapers, thus causing a great loss to the hawkers concerned.

All these hawkers are our citizens. If we do not give them a means to earn a living, they will have to go to the Social Welfare Department and the Government will thus have the additional financial burden of looking after them. So I would like the Government to grant them a means of livelihood and so give them the opportunity to earn a living.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not wish to irritate the Minister, but I want something to be done about the hawkers in my constituency. Therefore, the tune of my plea will be very soft. I would like to touch on the problems of the hawkers in my constituency, and I hope the Minister for the Environment will give sympathetic consideration to my plea for those hawkers who are either licensed or are temporarily licensed to hawk. These hawkers were formerly living at Changi Point. They were affected by resettlement and, as a result, their livelihood has been severely affected. Sir, another problem is this. The fishermen at Lorong Dangai in Changi were also affected by resettlement and have been accommodated in Housing Board flats. Having been resettled far away from the sea, they have therefore completely lost their only means of living, i.e, fishing. These people have made an appeal for allocation of hawker stalls in the Bedok New Town.

Sir, another appeal from the hawkers who are licensed to hawk at Changi Road and Bedok Road is that they be given permission to sell their goods at Koh Sek Lim Road between 7.00 a.m, and 8.00 a.m., before proceeding to the place which they are licensed to sell. Sir, I must stress that this practice has been going on for a long time. The former hawker inspector who was in charge of that place knew the situation of these hawkers. But the moment a new hawker inspector is posted to that place, he does not know about the situation. As a result, these poor hawkers have been warned, as the Minister has said, and then summoned. With the resettlement and redevelopment of Changi constituency and all its attendant problems. I hope inconvenience to these people can be reduced to the minimum. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to consider these points sympathetically so as to make these people a little bit happier.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I fully agree with my colleagues, the Members for Jurong, Bras Basah and Changi regarding the hawker inspectors. I am not criticising them as such because they are doing their duty. But they are doing their job too seriously, and do not give any warning to the hawkers. These hawkers have already been licensed, and so we must consider their position. They always try to clean the place. But when do they clean it? It is only after they have closed the shop, will they clean the place. And if the place is found dirty, then action can be taken. Otherwise it is very bad to make the people suffer. It is no good.

It is the general policy of the Hawkers Department to resite all hawkers in the hawker centres. By now, a considerable number of hawkers have been resited. The Hawkers Department has indeed done an excellent job. But then, sad to say, there are still a great number of hawkers hawking in the back lanes and shoddy areas. When will these hawkers be resited in the hawker centres? May I know also whether the hawkers around the Shenton Way bus terminus and the back lane of Choon Guan Street would be resited in the hawker centres.

I would urge that when an exercise is carried out to resite these hawkers, the hawker centre should be sited in my constituency because these hawkers have been doing business there and they prefer to be resited in the same locality.

Sir, how often are hawkers required to be medically examined? Very often the cholera and typhoid epidemics are spread by hawkers. It is high time for all hawkers to be medically examined without any charge, so that they can be certified fit before they are permitted to sell food.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, the recent outbreak of typhoid fever has prompted me to raise several questions as to whether present measures are adequate to control the spread of such diseases through the handling of food by hawkers.

Although we have a large number of hawker centres which provide clean and healthy environment for the hawkers, the licensing of these hawkers is confined only to those hawkers under the management of the Hawkers Department. The hawkers under the management of the Housing and Development Board need not obtain licences from the Hawkers Department. However, the tenancy agreement between the Housing Board and the hawkers contains pro, visions similar to the regulations of the Hawkers Department. The point I wish to make, Sir, is: why cannot all hawkers be licensed under one single authority so that there will be better and more effective control?

Apparently, there are some loopholes ii, the regulations on the control of hygiene in food preparation. For hawkers who are already sited in the Housing Board hawker centres, the problem is not so great as most of them are living in Housing Board flats where the surroundings are clean. Moreover, they have modem sanitation. But what about those hawkers sited in the hawker centres managed by the Hawkers Department? These hawkers prepare the food in their own homes, which are usually in the rural or squatter areas. I wonder whether there is any control over the preparation of food by these hawkers, and whether inspections are made of the place where the cooked food is prepared so as to protect the public from the hazards of such diseases.

As for cleanliness, I notice that quite a number of itinerant hawkers who sell roast pork (it is sio bak, as spoken in Hokkien, and not char siu, as spoken in Cantonese) convey their food openly on vehicles through the streets which often are very dusty, especially when a road excavation work is going on. I would suggest that the Hawkers Department impose regulations requiring these hawkers to cover their food when they hawk.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, presumably the Member for Toa Payoh thinks that the health inspectors of the Ministry of the Environment are not strict enough in enforcing the regulations governing hawkers. He has suggested that we should pass further regulations to see that the food is covered. We already have regulations requiring food to be covered, either in transit or on display for sale. Presumably in this instance, my health inspectors have been very kind and flexible in the enforcement of the regulations.

7.30 p.m.

But Members will agree with me that the inspectors in my Department do not have an easy job. As a result, I am finding it very difficult to recruit the full complement of health inspectors. The staff turnover is great. So not only must the health inspector be firm, but he must also be tactful. That is why, as I have said, we have set up a training department to teach them not only the know-how of the job but also to teach them the right way to deal with the public.

The Member for Bras Basah mentioned a case of unfair confiscation on the part of the health inspectors in his constituency. Well, as I say, there are always two sides to a picture. He has got his version. And if he is not satisfied with it, he can give me the details and I will find out what is the other side of the picture. Then probably we can arrive at a point where justice is done.

Sir, to accede to the appeal of the Member for Sembawang as well as the Member for Changi means that I would have to recommend to Cabinet that we close down the Hawkers Department. What is the point of having a Hawkers Department if we allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to just go out and hawk. Here, we are spending millions of dollars engaging inspectors, teaching them how to enforce the regulations, organising campaigns for better health standards -

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, a point of clarification.

The Chairman: Is the Minister prepared to give way?

Mr Lim Kim San: Is it a point of order?

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Point of clarification.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, the Member need not seek clarification now because by the time I have finished I would have made it very clear to him what I mean.

Sir, what is the point of having a Hawkers Department and spending so much money on campaigns on antipollution, Keep Singapore Clean, Keep Singapore Green, better food for better health, when, on the other hand, Members say, "Let them hawk. These are difficult cases. They are suffering." Our policy is to see that all hawkers are sited in centres where they can sell their food in really good surroundings with amenities like potable water; where they can keep themselves and the food they sell clean and can practise health hygiene. This i5 the reason why we are spending so much money. On the one hand, we hear the Member for Toa Payoh saying that we should go down and see that hawkers prepare their food under very sanitary conditions and, on the other hand, we have an appeal saying, "Please let them sell". In Singapore, there are hardship cases, of course. Definitely. A lot of our people have gone through a lot of hardships. Resettlement causes a lot of hardships. There is no doubt about that. But Singapore has been able to survive because our population is able to adapt themselves to changing circumstances, and it is our policy not to encourage hawking especially for young able-bodied people as there is a shortage of skilled labour in the more productive sectors of our economy. They can be trained and they should be trained. In our opinion, there are 31,000 hawkers in Singapore, bona fide licensed hawkers, and this number is sufficient for the needs of Singapore. If I were to accede to the request of the Member for Sembawang, then the policy of moving hawkers into centres with healthy and sanitary surroundings, so that there would be no outbreaks of cholera and typhoid, will be defeated. The whole policy will be defeated.

While sympathising with the Member for Changi on the plight of his constituents, here again, I cannot accede to his request to allow the hawkers in his constituency to sell in two places. If that is allowed, then the whole policy will go awry. There is already a shortage of suitable places to rehouse another 16,000 bona fide hawkers and here I am being asked, "Will you allow the hawkers in my constituency to sell at this place for a few hours and then in another place for another few hours?" Very soon all the MPs will come up to me and say, "Can you do the same for my hawkers?" What will the result be? We move them into what we think are suitable areas and they can do their trade under sanitary conditions. This is the policy of the Government.

Sir, the Member for Changi stated that the former inspector understood the difficulties and, according to him, allowed the hawkers to sell in two places. Whether it is the former inspector or the new inspector, he knows the policy. If that has been allowed in the past, then there has been some neglect on the part of that inspector. It is not the policy to allow that because otherwise it will defeat the policy that has been decided by my Ministry.

Sir, I think we have to continue with very firm action against unlicensed hawkers. If we allow unlicensed hawkers to continue hawking then the whole purpose of licensing them and resiting them into hawker centres will be defeated. We find that the only most effective way to dissuade them from illegal hawking is to confiscate their goods.

Sir, I am unable to assure the Member for Anson, or for that matter the Members for other constituencies, that hawker centres will be built in places within their own constituencies. As I explained earlier, there is limited space and limited finance. It would be ideal if we can build a hawker centre for each and every MP and in the place of their choice together with sufficient space to allot enough stalls for their constituents. But unfortunately the ideal is not attainable because of certain limitations.

We have already spent $4.2 million. For 1975-76, we are providing another $4.2 million for hawker centres and markets. We have spent quite a lot of money already. We have built 20 markets and hawker centres. They are under various stages of construction. But to build hawker centres in a place which Members consider ideal and which the hawkers consider ideal, is beyond our capacity.

Sir, as regards medical examination for hawkers, we are doing that. But we cannot do it for every hawker. It is free, I know, but the hawkers would suffer because it will take one week to really examine them as we are doing now when we resite them and put them in hawker centres. And during this time they will lose their earnings. As I said, there are 31,000 hawkers and together with their assistants, there will be about 40,000-odd. And it is almost physically impossible to examine all of them. So we do what we can. If there is trace of any outbreak of cholera or typhoid in any area, we go there and we really examine all of them in that area. But medical examination and screening does not mean that hereafter he will not be a danger to the public. He can still be a danger to the public if he subsequently comes in contact with typhoid or cholera germs. And if his personal hygiene is not up to standard, he will pass it on. I think the best means of making hawkers realise that clean personal habits are essential would be for members of the public to avoid hawkers with dirty habits. That is more effective than all the fines imposed by my inspectors.

Sir, as regards the suggestion that we should inspect and supervise food prepared by hawkers in squatter areas, here again it is not practical. We are already short of doctors and, as I said, I am finding it very difficult to recruit health inspectors. To supervise the preparation of food by every hawker in every squatter area is impracticable. Members know that different hawkers sell their food at different times of the day and the food is therefore prepared at different times too. It is physically impossible to carry out this suggestion. The only way to ensure that they are clean is to allow only licensed hawkers to sell in hawker centres under sanitary conditions, closely and strictly supervised.

Sir, if any Member remains unsatisfied because I have missed replying to their questions, I am prepared to answer them.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, it is very hard to please the Minister. I have never mentioned about allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to hawk all over the place. My request is that those fishermen, who are old and unable to fish because they have been resettled in Housing Board flats far away from the sea, be given licences in Bedok New Town where markets and stalls will be built. That is my question, and that is my plea. I am not asking the Minister to allow everyone to hawk. At the present moment, as I said, the reason why these hawkers are hawking at one place at a certain time and at another place at a different time is because at that place in Changi there is no market or no proper hawker centre and therefore this problem has arisen. For humanitarian reasons, we have got to be flexible in life.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, the Minister has just mentioned that it is physically impossible to check on the preparation of food in the squatter and rural areas. May I suggest that spot checks be made in the interest of hygiene?

And while on this point, may I just assist the Member for Changi? The hawker centres that are being constructed in his constituency may come under the management of the Housing Board, and there are certain provisions under the rules of the Housing Board that bona fide cases of hardship will be given places. I do not think his case will come under the Ministry of the Environment.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, my colleagues, the Backbenchers, and the public outside are puzzled. There are markets managed by the Housing Board, markets managed by the Ministry of the Environment, and I hear that there are markets managed by the Jurong Town Corporation and the Port of Singapore Authority. As for me, hawkers or stall-holders are one and the same. Whether they are managed by the Housing Board, JTC or PSA or whatever authority, something must be done.

7.45 p.m.

Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, what I am concerned about is a matter of policy. I would like to ask the Minister whether it is the policy of the Government to confiscate the goods of licensed hawkers if they commit a certain offence. Is it really necessary to take such a drastic step as confiscation of his goods? This is my point.

Mr Lim Kim San: It is not the policy to confiscate the goods. But there must be other good reasons. I do not know about this particular case and I do not think we should waste time on particular instances. If the Member wants it to be clarified, please write to me giving details of the case.

Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, there may be justification for doing that to an unlicensed hawker. But what I am talking about is that of a licensed hawker. He cannot run away. He can be summoned for whatever offence he has committed; but why should the Government confiscate his goods? This is my point.

Mr Lim Kim San: As I say, I do not know about the case. It could be that the hawker was told, "Would you please move your goods as you are blocking traffic?" The hawker was probably recalcitrant and said, "Go to hell with you. I will remove it at my own time." Therefore, it was taken away. It could be like this; I do not know.

At the moment, the Ministry of the Environment puts up its logo in every market place and hawker centre under its control. It is for administrative' effi- ciency that some markets are controlled by PSA, JTC and HDB. For the Ministry of the Environment to control hawkers all over Singapore is a bit unwieldy. So it is a question of administrative expediency. Authorities or statutory bodies which build markets or hawker centres within their own estates look after them, but they all observe the same Hawker Regulations.

I do not know if fishermen can become good hawkers.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: They can try.

Mr Lim Kim San: We are not encouraging hawking.

Probably it will be better for the fishermen to engage in some other occupation. I doubt very much whether a good fisherman can become a good hawker. He will probably go bankrupt in no time. We would probably save him a lot of trouble by not giving him a licence. But as we are unable to resettle all bona tide hawkers into designated areas, we are not issuing new licences. The problem will be a perennial one. On the one hand, we are not able to accommodate all bona fide hawkers and, on the other hand, we are issuing more licences.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, just now I heard the Minister say that he would not encourage more people to do hawking because there are already enough hawkers around. According to present regulations the department concerned is permitting those over 40 years old, whose livelihood is difficult and who are receiving public assistance, to be hawkers.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, for every rule there is an exception. Of course, in real cases of hardship we will make an exception. One exception is that national servicemen who are trained as cooks during national service and have become exceptionally good cooks and who have discharged their national service liability well will, if there are vacancies in the markets, be issued with hawker licences. This is a reward for good service in the army and an encouragement to people to cook better and more tasty food.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment (Mr Chor Yeok Eng): (In Mandarin): Sir, there are several points I would like to make to supplement the replies given by my Minister. The Member for Jurong made certain comments concerning hawkers and the siting of hawker centres. At the moment the matter is dealt with by several departments, the HDB, PSA, and the JTC besides the Ministry of the Environment. The present arrangement is this. In regard to the designing or planning of hawker centres, if it is to be in, say Jurong Town area, then it is dealt with by the Jurong Town Corporation. Because if it is not handled by them there will be certain inconveniences and difficulties in respect of choice of site, supervision, etc. This resulted in the various authorities being responsible for control of hawkers in their own areas.

Regarding the question of whether or not a Member of Parliament should be consulted in the setting up of a hawker centre in his constituency, in so far as the Ministry of the Environment is concerned the Member of Parliament concerned has generally been consulted in the choice of a site. As regards Jurong, two reasons could be given for the Member's complaint. The first is that the JTC has only recently set up a hawkers department. Secondly, two of the sites chosen are extensions of old market places. Since the sites have been fixed, there is hardly any possibility of reversing the decision.

Another point is about unlicensed hawkers in Jurong. At that time the JTC had not yet set up its own hawkers department, and moreover the factories there were in need of their services. Therefore, the JTC could only decide on the sites for the hawker centres in Jurong Town, while the expenses and the management thereof came under our control. But now any new hawker centre in Jurong Town will be managed by the JTC authorities.

The Member for Sembawang mentioned about newsvendors. According to our records, if a newsvendor does not have a stall at a definite place, he need not hold a hawker licence. We have not taken any action against such news-vendors. A newsvendors normally delivers the newspaper from house to house on a bicycle. But if he sets up a stall, he would be bound by certain regulations, and we will then take measures to deal with him. As we have said, it is easy to talk but difficult to practise. So it is very well to give encouraging answers to please people, but it will not be practical if in the end they cannot be fulfilled. In this regard I hope many Members will agree with my view.

In Asia many countries with Parliamentary democratic systems have failed. It is because the governments in these countries could only pay lip-service and could not actually practise what they preached, which caused the degeneration and subsequent dismemberment of the governments concerned. On the other hand, in the course of carrying out of our policy if we desist from action for fear of adversely affecting the interests of a minority, then we shall not be able to accomplish anything. If we want to please everybody, we would not be able to succeed in our business of government. However, in a densely populated country like ours, if we do not pay attention to the time factor then, to my mind, the country will in future be in dire difficulties. It is only when we can make full use of the time available and avail ourselves of the favourable conditions around us that we can carry out our policy of bringing a better life for our country and our people.

Another point I would like to add relates to what the Member for Changi had said about the problems of the fishermen. The Member for Toa Payoh has also added the point about the management of hawkers by the HDB. According to my understanding, the Resettlement Department of the HDB will usually bring the matter to the appropriate authority which has jurisdiction over the matter concerned. In other words, if the matter raised comes under their jurisdiction, such as when there are vacancies left, the department concerned would try to accommodate such people like resettled fishermen. Other matters will be taken up by the other relevant departments concerned. I myself have considerable experience dealing with HDB hawkers. Under normal circumstances if a hawker centre is built in an HDB estate and ready for allocation, then the Estate Officer of the Area Office concerned will discuss with the MP concerned about resettlement cases and other matters relating thereto. So in the circumstances I believe the Member for Changi would be consulted by the Area Office concerned when the fishermen in question were to be resettled, so that the matter could be solved amicably.

Mr Ho See Beng: In view of the lengthy reply, although it is not very satisfactory, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1975 to 31st March, 1976, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.