MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1975 TO 31ST MARCH, 1976

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head S (cont.) -

The following amendment stood in the names of Messrs Ng Kah Ting, Sim Boon Woo and Ong Teng Cheong:-

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CDD 1107.

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here. Mr Sim Boon Woo.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong (Kim Keat): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CDD 1107.

Sir, I was wondering whether the Minister concerned would recall - if he were to refer to page 235 and page 244 of the Main and Development Estimates for the Financial Year 1974-75 - that there was, in fact, no indication at all that the function of the Development Control Division of the Planning Department would be transferred. But as soon as the last Estimates were approved by this House last year, a Ministry circular dated 28th March, 1974, was issued advising that the function of the Development Control Division was to be transferred from the Planning Department to the Building Control Division under the overall charge of the Assistant Director (Building Control) of the Public Works Department, with effect from 1st April, 1974. No reason had been given for the transfer of functions. But one thing was clear. It was a hasty decision because it had rendered the last Main and Development Estimates out of date as soon as it was approved in this House.

I am not against the transfer of the Development Control Division to the Building Control Division of the PWD. In fact, I thought it would be a rather good idea if it could cut down red tape by amalgamating the two Divisions, both having very closely related functions regulating almost all aspects of the physical development in the Republic. Although almost a year has lapsed, it is noted that there is still an obvious lack of communication and coordination between the two Divisions within the same Department. It is not unusual to realise that one Division is not aware of the decision or action taken by the other Division and members of the public involved are often required to transmit information on their behalf. This has resulted in unnecessary loss of valuable time to both the Department and the public.

I wonder if the Minister is aware of this and whether immediate remedial measures would be introduced to rectify the situation in order to achieve the intended objective of the transfer of the function or part of the function of the Planning Department to the Public Works Department. I am sure the Minister will agree that the sooner the working relationship within the Department is improved, the more expeditiously and effectively it will serve the public.

Another point that I would like to speak under this subhead is on demolition enforcement. It is noted that the demolition enforcement policy has been rather inconsistent and that the action taken by the Department has been rather unpredictable. There were complaints that stringent action had been taken against those who had difficulty in communicating with officers of the Department. There were also complaints that swift action had been taken against those members of the public who had innocently put up minor extensions and repairs, as have already been raised by the Members for Jurong and Paya Lebar. And sometimes even awnings erected over windows to keep off the weather had to be demolished at short notice, while other unauthorised erections had been allowed to remain. If this is not inconsistency, what is? What about unauthorised erections put up by Government agencies or statutory bodies? What action has been taken against them?

An hon. Member: Nothing.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: I hope the Minister will not ask me to name the unauthorised erections put up by Government agencies. I am not suggesting that the Demolition Enforcement Department should be more stringent. On the contrary, I am suggesting that they should extend their understanding and reasonable attitude to the public, as they have to Government agencies.

I wish to join my colleagues in urging the Department officers to adopt a more humane and reasonable attitude in the performance of their duty in order to minimise grievances and hardship to the people. The public is aware arid recognises the powerful arm of the law. But there is nothing to be gained by adopting a harsh and rigid approach. Sometimes economic loss to our nation is the result instead.

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, some teething problems are inevitable in the early stages of the integration of the Development Control Division with the Building Control Division. Most of these problems have now been resolved, but if members of the public encounter inconveniences because the departments do not function efficiently, they are requested to write in to my Ministry.

2.45 p.m.

The Division's demolition enforcement officer by the very nature of his work attracts an impression of harshness and rigidity, while in effect he is merely discharging the unpleasant duties of his job which is really not an easy one. Actual physical demolition represents the culmination of very careful consideration and decision by the Division's officers in every case. Demolition is resorted to when all avenues for the possible regularisation or toleration of the unauthorised structures are exhausted. Members of the public should not erect unauthorised structures in the hope of escaping official detection. Building procedures have been streamlined, but relaxed wherever possible. It is not so difficult to obtain permission before carrying out building activities. If there are incidents where officers in the department have been rude or intolerant, Members are invited to bring such incidents to my notice and appropriate action will be taken.

The policy on unauthorised erections is quite clear. Under the Building Control Act, all structures which are erected without the approval of the Building Authority or in contravention of the Building regulations are unauthorised, and the Authority has power to demolish.

As for statutory boards, there has been no occasion when the Division has taken action against unauthorised erections. Besides, the fact that the Government is exempted from the Building Control Act, all Government buildings are scrutinised by the Planning Authorities and there is nothing to gain from erecting unauthorised structures. Statutory bodies are required to obtain planning permission and building approval for their buildings.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, in view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Haji Mohd. Ariff is not here. Mr P. Govindaswamy, amendment (8).

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CDE 1107*. (*The same amendment stood in the name of Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi).

Sir, I believe that several trees in parks and along roads are slanting dangerously and appear to fall at any time. Can the department concerned plan a programme to cut them down so as to avoid unnecessary damage to property and lives?

It is also believed that a major park is to be opened in Marine Parade and in various parts of the country. Can the Minister elaborate these programmes?

Again, lighting and parking facilities in some of our present parks are inadequate. Can the department concerned kindly look into this matter in order to improve the situation?

Mr Barker: Sir, slanting trees are not necessarily dangerous. The condition of the tree depends not only on the soundness of its roots but also on whether its trunk has suffered decay. But the Parks and Recreation Division does carry out periodic inspections of old trees. Those trees that are found dangerous or likely to fall down are cut down.

The Member wants to know more about parks. The East Coast Park of 350 acres, or 140 hectares, of reclaimed land with a five-mile shoreline stretching from Tanjong Rhu to Bedok is being developed into a park and recreational area. The area between the Singapore Swimming Club and the Housing and Development Board Marine Parade Estate has already been turfed and planted. A six-hectare, or 15-acre, swimming lagoon, which in terms of surface area is equivalent to about 40 Olympic-sized swimming pools and capable of accommodating about 6,000 people at a time, is being constructed by the Ministry of the Environment and scheduled for completion in early 1976. Other facilities will include footpaths, car parks, cycle tracks, changing rooms, hawker and food centres, and even a golf driving range. Camping sites will be provided and chalets built by the Housing and Urban Development Co. (Pte.) Ltd, for rental to the public. An orchard is being developed in an area of about four hectares, or 10 acres, behind the Chinese Swimming Club. There are also plans to build a tennis complex, an indoor recreational centre and even a bicycle station.

I wonder whether that satisfies the Member or whether he desires more information on other parks.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I am satisfied with the Minister's reply, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CEA 1107.

The Planning Department, which is the nerve centre for all planning matters in Singapore and a very important section in the Ministry of National Development, was split into two in April last year. One section of the Planning Department was to deal with the Master Plan and long-term planning, and the other section known as the Development Control Division is to operate under the PWD. As a result of the split, the position of the professional planners is not clear. The morale of the officers is low. They even fear to talk to members of the public, who from time to time seek preliminary advice prior to submission of formal applications to the Development Control Division.

In overseas countries development control is always part of the Planning Department for the efficient operation of planning control. What was the reason behind the split? Is the separation going to be permanent?

I would like to know how many resignations have taken place since the separation? Are the planners who are in the profession happy with this separation?

I would also like to know whether officers of both divisions are eligible to apply for a senior post when a vacancy arises. At the moment, I believe that promotion to a senior post is confined to officers of the particular division where the vacancy exists. This has caused great dissatisfaction among the planners because of frustration and lack of promotion prospects and incentives. This was what I was given to understand from a disappointed planner who has since resigned, and as you know, Sir, it is difficult to recruit planners. I would request the Minister to make a review of this important division.

Sir, I would like to know what is really happening to the former Raffles Institution site. I believe the former historic building had to be demolished to make way for urban renewal, and that a tall building will be built at the site so as to keep up with other tall buildings in the city area. But instead of the tall building as expected, the site has been converted into a car park. Just imagine, a historic Raffles Institution building demolished for a mere car park! May I know why the Planning Department had second thoughts on the project in this important area?

Again, another precious piece of land, the former Gemini Chit Fund site at Bras Basah Road, has been converted into the best plot for growing lalang. While there is acute shortage of land in the city area for development, we find this place lying idle for growing lalang. I hope the Planning Department will not be so fickle in its functions. Either we develop according to schedule or leave the place to our citizens who are occupying the land. Sir, can the Minister give an explanation for these anomalies?

Sir, I have received many complaints about development in my constituency. Building approvals have been granted for some areas in Wallich Street, which is indeed very good for the uplift of Anson constituency. However, I would like to know why there is some discrimination in the Tras Street area where building approvals have been granted for a certain section but not granted for another section. Can the Minister explain the policy of granting building approvals?

Mr Barker: Sir, the decision to split the long-term planning and development control functions was made in the interest of improving efficiency. Prior to April, 1974, the Development Control Division which deals with private development applications was part of the Planning Department, whilst the Building Control Division which deals with building plan approvals was part of the Public Works Department. Logically, the Development Control Division and the Building Control Division should be integrated into one unit because building plan approvals are tied up with planning approvals and vice versa.

Master Plan and long-range planning, on the other hand, embody a wider area of planning control and are best left as a separate department. This will save the long-range planners from being bogged down with the routine development applications which entail time-consuming interviews with architects and developers; follow-up action on planning approvals, attendance at hearing appeals and taking enforcement action for contraventions of planning permission.

With the separation of functions, the Development Control planners are able to spend full-time on the day-to-day applications received from the private sector and are thus able to offer better service to developers and architects. The Planning Department planners in turn are able to do a more thorough and uninterrupted job at long-range and block-planning and to concentrate on public development projects.

3.00 p.m.

Since the transfer, there have been three resignations of planners, two from the Planning Department and one from the Development Control Division. All three have resigned for personal reasons. Their resignations had nothing to do with the transfer of the departmental functions. It is not understood why the Member for Anson should think that the morale of the planners is very low. Additional senior posts have been created since the promotion, and the promotional prospects of planners in both the Planning Department and the Development Control Division have improved. Vacancies of senior posts are now open to officers of both sections.

With regard to the former Raffles Institution site and the Gemini Chit Fund site at Bras Basah Road, I do not understand why the Member for Anson should blame the Planning Department for the absence of development. It is not only planning approval that leads to a building. A lot depends upon the owners. In the case of Raffles Institution, it belongs to the Development Bank of Singapore. For their own reasons they have postponed the construction of the building. The proposal has been temporarily shelved. At one time it was because of the shortage of skilled labour and building materials. The project has since been revived and the architects, I understood, are now proceeding with the detailed planning. The site would not be left as a car park-cum-school field as it is now, but a 70-storey building is coming up and it should satisfy the Member in due course.

The Gemini Chit Fund site was granted planning approval in 1968 for a hotel/commercial building. This permission was cancelled in 1970 because of non-compliance with planning conditions. A new proposal for the erection of a 24-storey hotel/commercial building was approved in April, 1973. The developers have requested that the project be deferred because of the current economic situation. Since this site belongs to a private developer, the Division cannot compel the developer to proceed if he is unable to do so. However, every encouragement is being given for the revival of the proposal.

It is difficult to reply to the Member's last question without details of the site being given. He refers to new buildings being allowed in Wallich Street. Perhaps he is referring to the one at the junction of Wallich Street and Peck Seah Street where planning approval was granted for the erection of a 17-storey office building in February, 1972. In contrast to the site at Tras Street, which is only about 2,900 sq, ft, in area, the site at the Wallich Street/Peck Seah Street junction is about 10,000 sq, ft, and therefore a building could be allowed without prejudicing the comprehensive redevelopment of the area. The other one was not approved on the grounds that it was made on a piece-meal basis and too small and likely to prejudice the comprehensive redevelopment of the area.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I am not so interested in that. What I am more interested is why a historic building such as Raffles Institution had to be demolished?

Anyway, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CFA 1107*. (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong).

Sir, can the Minister elaborate on what is being done to improve market gardening facilities and pig and poultry rearing in the State? Would it be feasible to at least provide market gardening facilities on roof-tops of 11DB flats which are lying idle and which receive the beneficial rays of the sun constantly? No damage could arise where residents are concerned. This is one of the solutions as Singapore is short of land. Alternatively, it would be advisable if the Government could acquire certain pieces of land and give them to the farmers to cultivate for our daily needs.

On the other hand, if we cannot depend much on agriculture, what about fishing? I would like to know what is being done to encourage our fishermen to engage themselves in deep sea fishing for our daily supplies of sea food. I suggest that the Primary Production Department should take steps to see that farmers and fishermen are well taken care of, and ensure that ample encouragement and facilities are given to them so that they can enjoy the fruits of their labour.

Sir, can the Department look into the price of mutton which does not seem to come down during the last few years? Prices of mutton are causing hardship to our people. Something must be done to import more sheep in order to cut down the cost. We cannot all the time blame the exporting countries for not exporting enough to us. I think we must decide to negotiate with the exporting countries for a better deal.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Sir, although the Member for Anson is an MP for an urban area, he has been very sympathetic towards farmers and fishermen. For that I am very grateful to him.

Sir, I believe that the job of the Primary Production Department is to further the development of our agriculture and fisheries and to assist the rural people to improve their methods of production so that their standard of living could be raised. However, I am most disappointed to find that recently the Primary Production Department officers have become land inspectors instead. They go round to check whether the villagers have erected any illegal structures or whether their buildings have been used for illegal purposes. I have here a letter from the Commissioner of Lands addressed to me saying that a farmer in my constituency is manufacturing kaya a kind of coconut jam in his house, and that this matter was reported to him by a land inspector in the Primary Production Department. Then there is also another farmer who was found by a Primary Production Department land inspector to have used his store as a hatchery without permission. In actual fact a hatchery is another form of agricultural activity. If the farmer had not applied for such a permit, then the Primary Production Department officer should be more sympathetic in his attitude. He should advise the farmer as to how an application could be made for this purpose. On the contrary, the land inspector not only did not give any advice but reported it to the Commissioner of Lands. So this poor farmer removed the incubators out of the store, thinking that the matter would end there and there would be no more trouble. But the Primary Production Department did not stop there. It made a very absolute recommendation to the Land Office - allow me to read out the original letter for the appreciation of hon. Members here.

'Although the two incubators have been removed from the structure, they are presently placed outside the store and the power points are still intact in the structure. We are therefore of the view that the two incubators and the power points should be totally removed from the premises so that it will not be possible for him to reuse the structure as a hatchery at a later date.'

Sir, this farmer is regarded as though he was a criminal, having committed a heinous crime and would have to be put to death by the Primary Production Department. As an MP for a rural area, I am most disgusted and painstricken at the base attitude adopted by the officers of the Department who regard the farmers as enemies. With such an attitude, how are they going to promote agricultural development? I hope the Minister will reassess the scope of operations of the Primary Production Department and conduct a special political training course for those officers who have frequent contact with the people.

Sir, under the current resettlement regulations, the allocation of land to affected farmers would have to be recommended by the Primary Production Department. However, there are complaints that some people who are not engaged in any agricultural work at all have been so recommended. Finally these people chose to be allocated a free flat with higher compensation, while some genuine farmers were not recommended for land allocation. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister what are the criteria adopted by the Primary Production Department in making recommendations for the allocation of land, and whether the survey of farmers by the Primary Production Department was done before or after finalising the registration of farmers by the Resettlement Office. Can the Minister enlighten the House?

Mr Barker: The Member for Jurong, of course, always supports the farmers and fishermen who live in his area, but we now have a new supporter in the Member for Anson who has also become a farmer, fisherman and gardener.

Sir, when the left hand of one department does not know what the right hand is doing, MPs ask me questions, like the Member for Kim Keat. And when one branch of the Ministry of National Development, that is the Primary Produc-. tion Department, works hand in hand with another department, the Land Office of the Ministry of Law, they ask me questions too! So when there is communication they question it, and when there is lack of communication they also question it.

The Member for Jurong should be aware of the efforts of the Primary Production Department, even to improve market gardening! Besides providing services on the sale of pesticides, control of diseases and the improvement of agricultural practices, even hydroponic cultivation of vegetables has been encouraged so as to obtain higher yields than ordinary vegetable cultivation methods. However, that is for hydroponics. But because of the high capital cost, not many farmers have attempted this yet.

3.15 p.m.

The Department also assists the pig and poultry farmers by the sale of high grade piglings and chicks to upgrade stock and by controlling livestock diseases. Technical know-how gained through research is disseminated to the farmers. To encourage more efficient production, pig farming on a large commercial scale will be encouraged, not in Jurong, but this time in Punggol.

The cultivation of crops on roof-tops of HDB fiats is not considered a practical nor an economical proposition. The flats are not designed to withstand any additional load or to accommodate this kind of activity.

As for fishing, Singapore has limited territorial waters in which to fish. Our fishermen must go out far to fish in international waters. This means a hard vigorous life. Sometimes they are kidnapped and held to ransom for long periods. So fishing is a prospect which most of our young men are reluctant to take up, especially when there are more attractive and comfortable jobs available on terra firma.

The Member for Anson likes to eat mutton, the price of which he said has increased during the last two years. This is true. The price of mutton went up with other food items. In April to June last year the retail price was about $3.10 per lb. This was at its peak. But the price has now dropped by about 40 cents and this should keep the Member happy. We are dependent on imported supplies of mutton. However, frozen or fresh, it is expensive to import live animals as freight costs account for about one-third of the price of a live animal.

The Member for Jurong wanted to know the criteria for the assessment of a bona fide farmer. The status of a farmer is assessed on a number of factors. Firstly, the actual number of livestock that the farmer owns, and secondly, the degree of his other farming activities as determined by the detailed census records of his activities over the last two or three years. Thirdly, dependency on farming for a livelihood, and other sources of income are also taken into consideration. This information is collected and reviewed by a panel in the Primary Production Department who then make recommendations as to the status of a particular farmer.

For the Member's information, five licences for kelong operations off the coast of Tuas were revoked by the Primary Production Department. Unfortunately, the sea coast of Tuas is affected by reclamation work of the Jurong Town Corporation.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to speak on the problems of pig farmers. In the past, the Primary Production Department did quite a great deal for the pig and poultry farmers. For example, the Primary Production Department provided inoculations for the chickens in order to develop the poultry industry. But I understand that this service has stopped recently. I do not know the reason. I feel that inoculation of chickens should continue to be provided to help our poultry farmers. Moreover, the Department should also continue to provide assistance in methods of increasing production and higher egg yields so as to meet local consumption needs.

I would like to ask two questions in this regard. Firstly, the pig farmers in Chua Chu Kang are being resettled in Punggol. The process of resettlement will certainly affect the production of pigs. During the transitional period the supply of live pigs to the market will also be affected. In the circumstances I would therefore like to ask the Minister what effective steps are being taken by the Primary Production Department to ensure an adequate supply of pigs in the market during this transitional period'? I would also like to know what steps are being taken to ensure that the price of pork is stabilised in the process.

Secondly, Sir, according to my understanding, last year the Primary Production Department planned to set up an enterprise for pig farming in the Central Experimental Station in Sembawang. Now that a year has passed, I would like to know what progress has been made. Can the Minister enlighten this House as to when will this enterprise for pig farming be operational and when will it be able to supply the market?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Lim Guan Hoo): Mr Speaker, Sir, I remember you had previously ruled that the colloquial term used by the Member for Sembawang likening a hawker inspector to a kind of land cow was somewhat unparliamentary language and could. not be used in this House. This term was again used by the Member for Jurong just now. In view of your previous ruling, I wonder whether the Member for Jurong would consider withdrawing such remarks as implied in the term used.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, this term is a colloquial expression used by the people. It is not meant to be offensive to this House or to cast any aspersion on any Minister or Member. How are we going to reflect the views of the people if we do not use the term as used by the people?

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: Sir, the point is whether your previous ruling is still valid.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to ask in which year and at what time was this ruling made?

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: Sir, the Member for Sembawang must have a very good memory of this. Perhaps he can help to trace the record.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not wish to join in the argument on the use of this term.

Mr Barker: Let us not lose our tempers. Sir, I accept the explanation of my Friend, the Member for Jurong. I have been called worse names in this House, but I am sure any name he calls me is with the best of intention.

Sir, the resettlement programme has been in operation for many years. The pig production has, in fact, increased between 1967 and 1972. This shows that the resettlement programme has little effect on the production of pigs. Members will remember that prices of pigs went very low in early 1972 causing much concern to the MPs concerned. Production fell subsequently in 1973 and 1974 but this was because of other economic factors. Prices of feed for pigs increased in 1973 and 1974 as a result of general inflation. Following this, the cost of pig production went up and the marginal farmers were eased out. Pork prices also rose. Like any other commodity, Members should be aware that the price of pork depends on supply and demand. During festive seasons prices rise and fall back to the general level soon after. It is not always possible to stabilise the price of pork by merely increasing or decreasing pig production.

I have not very good news for the Member for Sembawang. The intensive commercial pig farming scheme, which was previously proposed to be set up in his constituency, is now being shifted to Punggol. Sembawang has been designated as a catchment area. Water comes first before pigs. The land in Punggol is now under preparation and the first lots for these pig farms will be available next month.

I am not aware whether the Member's allegation about the withdrawal of poultry vaccination is true or not. If it is, then it is an undesirable step and I will certainly look into it.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, 1 am very glad to note that we have a very broad-minded Minister. I think the Parliamentary Secretary could learn a lot from him in this respect.

Just now the Minister referred to his Ministry coordinating the work of the various departments. What I am trying to say is that I do not mean that there should not be any coordination between government departments. Coordination is good but every department must know its own basic functions and role in dealing with the people. For example, in dealing with the people, officials should take a sympathetic view of the matter. In the case I cited just now, I feel that the Primary Production Department was too cruel. Even the electric sockets and plugs had to be removed. In my opinion, this is going too far.

3.30 p.m.

The Minister also informed the House just now that in my constituency five licences for kelongs had been revoked. I am aware of this. But my question i5 this: in the revocation of licences for the kelongs, the fishermen need fishing boats to go to the kelongs. And the problem is that the Primary Production Department has refused to issue licences for these fishing boats. As a result, kelong workers and owners are not able to go to their kelongs in their boats. Hence the fish caught would be utterly lost. So I would like to ask the Minister whether licences for fishing boats can be issued to them so that they can go to the kelongs. If he can promise me this, I will be very grateful.

Sir, as regards deep-sea fishing, I am quite aware of the hard life of these fishermen: They are exposed to all sorts of dangers, risks and even piracy on the high seas. I am sure that the Minister also understands their problems. He is also a good Minister as he takes an interest in the welfare of fishermen who are exposed to risks and dangers. I feel that the Government has some responsibility to help the fishermen solve some of their problems. We should get in touch with ASEAN countries and work out some arrangement to ensure the safety of our fishing vessels on the high seas and to ensure that should our fishermen go into the territorial waters of other ASEAN countries by mistake, they should be permitted to continue fishing there. I wonder whether the Minister will agree to this suggestion.

Mr Barker: Sir, as for the boat licences requested for by the Member, I will certainly look into his request.

As for our fishermen, we do not abandon them on the high seas. When they are caught, whether rightly or wrongly, our Foreign Office does make representations to the government concerned. Sir, you may remember the research vessel "Changi" detained in Rangoon. We made many representations through the Foreign Office, and the Head of the Fisheries Department of the Primary Production Department made several trips to Rangoon not only to help the seamen who were detained but in an effort to get them out. Finally we succeeded.

I am not aware whether the question of fisheries has been taken up in ASEAN. Perhaps the Member can ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs when he returns.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, what the Minister said was right. However, I too buy fish and vegetables, and that was why I brought it up.

I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CFE 1111.

In moving this amendment, I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to cases where the Fisheries Division had refused to renew quite a number of kelong licences in my constituency. However, the operators were told verbally that they could carry on until such time as they were told to stop. I am given to understand that kelong licences cannot be renewed and that the operators are also unable to get boat licences. Sir, on the one hand they are allowed to carry on with kelong fishing but, on the other hand, they are not allowed to renew their boat licences. I wonder whether the Minister could look into this matter and give his sympathetic consideration.

Sir, the question I am going to raise with the Minister has already been brought up by the Member for Jurong, and therefore I would like to ask another question. The fishermen in my constituency, that is, in Telok Mata ikan, Bedok and Ayer Gemuroh, are very badly affected by land reclamation work. Big monsoon drains have been built about two years ago. I have asked the Primary Production Department and the Housing and Development Board, who were in charge of the reclaimed land, to make every effort not to inconvenience the fishermen in that area. I remember having asked the Primary Production Department to construct a temporary bridge over the monsoon drain for the convenience of the fishermen so that they can bring their nets and other fishing gear to the sea. At the same time I have also asked the Department to construct a path leading to the sea for the fishermen. But until now this job has not been done and the fishermen are very unhappy about it. Some three weeks ago I asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development to convene a meeting with the Primary Production Department and the Housing and Development Board, but to my surprise nothing has been done. When I pressed the matter further I learned that the Primary Production Department officers were asking the Housing Board engineers as to who have got to pay for the bridge.

Sir, this state of affairs has been going on for nearly two years. I was given to understand that the land reclamation work would be completed in about a year's time. I hope that this year, within a period of 12 months, something can be done to help these fishermen.

Mr Barker: Sir, the facts are that the Housing and Development Board is dredging the coast off Changi to provide fill for the reclamation in the Telok Ayer Basin. As a result the licences of 15 kelongs affected by the dredging have, therefore, not been renewed. The licensees have been given one year's advance notice. But as the dredging works have yet to reach these kelongs, the operators have been allowed to continue their operation in the meantime. Fishing boats serving the affected kelongs have not been issued with licences, as licences for the kelongs have not been renewed. However, arrangements will be made to issue temporary licences to these boats.

Any reclamation work must interfere with fishing, kelongs and their operations. Two loading and unloading areas for the fishermen have been designated on the coast between Bedok and Tanah Merah Besar. Roads have been provided across the reclaimed land to these loading areas for the use and benefit of the fishermen. A crossing over the conveyor belt system has been built servicing the reclamation works and a pedestrian bridge across the drainage canal at Sungei Mata Ikan have also been provided for the convenience of the fishermen.

If, as the Member complains, he has not been able to get much out of the Departments concerned, I would suggest that he puts this down in a letter to me.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the very kind remarks of the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement: Mr J. F. Conceicao: - (13) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of item (b) of subhead CDB 2120. (14) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead CDB 2190. Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Teong Eng Siong: Mr Sim Boon Woo: (15) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 8104.

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao is not moving his amendments. Amendment (15). Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here. Mr Teong Eng Siong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 8104.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this amendment refers to the Urban and Rural Services Committee. The Urban and Rural Services Committee has achieved quite a lot in the past few years. It has provided a lot of services and amenities for the rural people and has also helped in the development of the rural areas. Many roads, street lights, drains and water supply have been provided in the rural areas. ,All these have brought benefits and convenience to the rural people. However, in the last one or two years the allocation for Urban and Rural Services has been reduced drastically. For the current year the provision is increased by about $200,000 only. This is insufficient to meet the demands of the rural areas. In the past few years many roads in the rural areas have been metalled, streets lights installed, drains constructed and water supplied. But only half of the rural areas has been provided with these amenities. The other half of the rural areas still lacks these modern facilities. The Government should allocate more funds for development work to be carried out in the second half of the rural areas.

I would like to ask two further questions. Firstly, we find that many roads in the rural areas deteriorate very fast. In other words, many potholes appear on the surface of the roads in, I think, less than six months after construction. Is it because the authorities concerned have not exercised strict supervision on the contractors engaged in building the roads? Do the contractors indulge in malpractices when building roads? It is a waste of public funds. I would like the Minister to take note of malpractices among the contractors and see that the roads built by the contractors are strictly supervised.

3.45 p.m.

Secondly, we find that the roads built by the national servicemen last longer than those built by the contractors. This goes to show that the roads built by national servicemen and villagers are more durable, and every cent spent is worth it. Moreover, the expenditure incurred is lower, and is therefore cheaper than roads built by contractors. If we allow the national servicemen to carry out road construction, then we can save half of the expenditure because the other half goes to the wages of the labourers. So I would like to ask the Minister to encourage more national servicemen to engage in road construction. Firstly, they are more lasting and, secondly, we can save money.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I am not speaking.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development (Mr Ho Cheng Choon): Sir, kampung roads are constructed for the use of residents only, and therefore can take only light traffic. However, once the roads are completed, heavier vehicles and higher volume of traffic are attracted to the area and this causes the road to break up relatively quickly. Rural roads constructed by contractors normally have a four-inch thick crusher run aggregate covered by 1k-inch thick asphalt. The standard roads have a four-inch thick quarry waste sub-base under an eight-inch layer of crusher run aggregate covered by a two-inch asphalt premix. The latter, of course, cost very much more.

Roads constructed under gotong royong projects use PWD machinery and workmen and voluntary assistance by members of the public, resulting in a saving in cost, and normally used to incorporate a sublayer of quarry waste. I support the suggestion of the Member to encourage more gotong royong road projects. However, there is a limit to which the PWD machinery and workmen can be deployed for this purpose as their routine work of patching up potholes and repairing minor damages to other roads would be affected.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his explanation. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here to move amendment (10). Mr Ho See Beng, amendment (10).

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 8201*. (*The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Ng Kah Ting, Lee Yiok Seng, L. P. Rodrigo and Ong Teng Cheong).

Sir, this is a matter in connection with the Resettlement Department under the Housing and Development Board. As a result of urban renewal in my constituency, many single persons who are affected by it have been unable to obtain priority for allocation of Housing and Development Board flats. The Resettlement Department refused to resettle them on the ground that these subtenants have never lived there at the time when a census was taken and therefore their names did not appear in its register.

Sir, if the this ground unfortunate. Department's official held against them, it is most They are unlike those people who, knowing that the property has been acquired, moved in and stayed after the cut-off date, in the hope of obtaining priority for allocation of HDB flats when eviction takes place.

Sir, the subtenants I am referring to are bona fide residents, whose authenticity can be proved beyond doubt as their identity cards bear their names, addresses and date of original issue long before the acquisition took place. But, Mr Speaker, Sir, the reason why their names have not been recorded in the census at the time of acquisition is that they have "missed the boat" while working on board the ship, if I may use this analogy to describe their position. Hence, when the Resettlement Officers visited their place of abode to take census, their names were not recorded.

Sir, it has been said that clothing, food, accommodation and conduct are the four important factors in a man's life. If so, how can they live without accommodation? They are citizens of Singapore, and how can we see them roaming about in the streets without a roof over their heads?

In view of this, Sir, I appeal to the Minister concerned to make a ruling on this matter in favour of these unfortunate single persons, the victims of circumstances, who have lost their dwelling places through no fault of their own.

Mr Barker: Sir, I am afraid I am not prepared to make the ruling asked for without an investigation into the facts and particulars. Single persons affected by resettlement are entitled to alternative accommodation and priority therefore if they can get others to join - two or three bachelors or two or three spinsters getting together provided, of course, they qualify in other respects. Here, the Member says that their identity cards show that they are living at Bras Basah constituency and at the time of the census, they were not around. That raises a doubt as to whether they missed the boat as the Member said, either in Bras Basah or they missed the boat elsewhere. Perhaps they were not seamen. We can look into their particulars and if they can prove by their passports, for instance, that they were working as seamen at the date when the census was taken, every consideration will be given to their cases.

Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, it seems we have got to settle this matter outside the Chamber once again.

Mr Lee Yiok Seng (Bukit Panjang): Sir, I wish to raise the issue of non-citizens who are affected by the resettlement clearance scheme. In the resettlement clearance sites, we often come across families where both husband and wife are non-citizens but hold blue Singapore identity cards, and their children, born in Singapore, hold Singapore pink identity cards but they are underaged. According to the current policy of the Housing and Development Board, they are not eligible for rehousing under the resettlement priority scheme. Although they have been living in these clearance sites for many years, they are not considered for rehousing and have to find their own alternative accommodation, which is very difficult. As there is no way out, they stay on day after day in the clearance sites. They do not know what to do, and because of this the clearance projects have to be delayed. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister whether he is prepared to reconsider the HDB policy and to allow these people to purchase HDB flats under the resettlement priority scheme.

Mr Barker: Sir, the Government's first duty is towards its citizens. Our policies must favour our citizens. Let us look after ourselves first and if we can, we will look after others.

As for HDB policy, only Singapore citizens can apply for Housing Board accommodation. Non-citizen families are not provided with alternative accommodation by the HDB even though they may be affected by development projects. However, we have become a little flexible. A family, some of whom are non-citizens, can qualify if the majority are citizens or permanent residents and the applicant is a Singapore citizen above the age of 21. In the case that the Member quoted the mother and father were not born here. They have three children. That is all right. If they have only one child, then it is no good. It means they must have more children to qualify, and the Minister for Health would not like that. But here we are being sympathetic and human.

In respect of families which are affected by resettlement, the second condition, i.e, the age limit of 21, is relaxed and the family is allowed to rent HDB flats on a temporary occupation licence basis. There has to be this condition if the eldest child is under 21 hut above 12 years. When the eldest child reaches 21, a proper tenancy agreement is executed.

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): Sir, under this head, I just wish to raise two queries in relation to the massive project that is being undertaken in the constituency of Serangoon Gardens. With the vast clearance that is going on, I would like to ask the Minister (a) to restate the policy of the Ministry on the compensation that is accorded to the management of a private school, as and when the Housing and Development Board acquires the land and demolishes the school, and (h) such policy in relation to community centres.

4.00 p.m.

Sir, I also would like to raise a query in relation to a road in the constituency which is very much used by farmers and residents in the kampung areas, namely, Cheng San Road. May I know whether there is a plan to develop this road into a main thoroughfare. Because if there is, then it will lead into the estate proper and will become a main thoroughfare for traffic. This could lead to considerable congestion in the estate which, as the Minister knows, consists of roads which are rather narrow and which do not make adequate provision for large traffic.

Mr Barker: Sir, Cheng San Road will eventually have to be closed and re- placed by a new road system proposed for Ang Moh Kio New Town. Different portions of Cheng San Road will be closed off in about a year. However, the residents in this section will he able to obtain access through the new road system.

As for community centres, the decision whether or not to demolish depends upon the structural condition of the building, its accessibility and its location within the new estate. Of course, the People's Association has a big say and they will be consulted to find an appropriate site if a new centre i5 needed. However, any existing Ones will continue until an alternative site is provided.

As for schools, compensation is provided. Whether or not an alternative site is provided will depend on the circumstances and, of course, advice of the Ministry of Education.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, it is observed that the standard of maintenance services in the Housing and Development Board estates has apparently deteriorated, despite the fact that the conservancy charges have increased since early last year. The lawns are not mowed regularly and the public corridors and staircases are not kept clean as they should he. I hope the Management Department of the Housing and Development Board will examine and tighten their administration and supervision to ensure that full and effective maintenance services are rendered by the maintenance contractors or subcontractors or sub-sub-contractors. Meanwhile I wish to ascertain if the Housing and Development Board has any intention to expand their maintenance department and task force to maintain their estates instead of relying on the maintenance contractors or subcontractors.

I also wish to request the Minister to reconsider the suggestions which have been made frequently of the provision of lift attendants in Housing Board estates, in view of the increasing crime rate particularly in these high-density housing estates. I hope that the suggestion of providing lift attendants will not be ignored or brushed aside simply because it will cost the HDB $8 million to $10 million a year. I am sure the Minister is aware that many direct and indirect savings and other benefits will accrue with the introduction of lift attendants. For example, it will cut down, if not totally eliminate, vandalism to lifts and other public properties: This is a direct, though invisible, saving to the Housing and Development Board. Besides, the consequent reduction in crime rate, such as robberies in the lifts or in the flats, would mean a saving not only to the society as a whole but also to the Ministry of Home Affairs in respect of their costs of administration and operation against crime. But the most important consequential benefit is that the Housing and Development Board estates will be a much safer place to live in. Therefore, I request the Minister to take the suggestions seriously and perhaps I should take this opportunity to urge him to consider the possibility of carrying out a comprehensive cost-benefit study on the subject.

The next issue is the most generally acknowledged fact that the quality of construction and finish of HDB flats have obviously been poor and deteriorating. I would like to know what steps are being taken to remedy the situation.

The last point I wish to ask the Minister - I have brought it up previously and I am sure he will recall it- is the problem of water-logged open spaces in Toa Payoh Town. I had raised this point in the past and he admitted then that he was aware of the problem and that he would look into it. I wish to enquire what measures or action have been taken so far to remedy the situation.

Mr Barker: Sir, by and large, the standard of maintenance services in Housing and Development Board estates has not deteriorated. In some estates the maintenance contractors have found it uneconomical to operate unless they accumulate their repair orders over a period so as to make less trips, thereby inconveniencing many residents.

The Housing and Development Board has taken steps to rectify this by dividing these estates into zones so that more contractors are engaged to deal effectively in respect of each zone. The Housing and Development Board has also recently formed a high level inspection team which is charged with the task of looking into and rectifying any shortcomings in the maintenance service. The Board relies directly on its daily-rated task force for the maintenance of 75% of its open public spaces. The remaining 25% of the work is let out to maintenance contractors. In a way it is good administration to have some competition between the two groups as a guide to measurement of efficiency and cost.

As to flooding referred to by the Member, sub-soil drainage has been introduced to the open space between Blocks Nos. 1 and 2, Lorong 6, Toa Payoh. Part of the area was also raised by additional fill and this measure appears to be satisfactory so far.

As for lifts, I can assure the Member that we do not brush aside reasonable suggestions. It would appear impractical to introduce the lift attendant system. We had discussed this before in this House. Today there are about 1,700 lifts in HDB estates. Based on 24 shifts per day per lift, about 4,250 lift attendants would be required to man the lifts. This number would continue to increase in future as more lifts are put into operation in new blocks of flats. At the moment, of course, it is not even easy to recruit such a number of lift attendants, even if residents are prepared to pay an additional $10 per flat per month for lift attendant services.

I agree with the Member on the benefits lift attendants must bring -reduced crime and reduced vandalism, and general cleanliness. Some lifts are in a disgraceful condition because of the use made of them by some people. But I can assure the Member that we have not completely brushed aside the suggestion and have been reviewing this proposal over the years.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Sir, with more than 180,000 units of flats under the management of the Housing and Development Board and nearly half the population residing in housing Board flats, the problems mentioned by various Members of the House will increase in the future. It is recognised that the Housing and Development Board has a formidable task to construct and manage the numerous housing estates. Too often have we heard of defects in the construction of flats, resettlement of residents, hawkers, parking charges and the attitude of Housing and Development Board officials towards members of the public.

It appears that the main function of the Housing and Development Board is to construct as many flats as possible at the shortest possible time, and then follow up with strict enforcement of tenancy and lease agreements to prevent abuses. Very little is being done to foster good public relations between residents and officials of the Housing Board.

Letters to the press are promptly answered. These are mostly in defence of the inadequacies of the service provided by the Housing Board. Tenants and hawkers, particularly those from the lower income group, are constantly harassed or treated with indifference by hawker inspectors and other officials. Problems and complaints brought up by them are not properly attended to. Very often they are told to refer their problems to the MPs, if they are not satisfied.

I must admit that the Estate Officers in charge of an Area Office have an unenviable task to perform. In most cases, they handle the problems pretty well. But those officers below them do not appear to understand the problems of residents, shop-keepers and hawkers. It is recognised that the Estate Officer cannot handle all the problems himself, but then the officers serving under him should be properly trained, especially in maintaining good public relations with the residents in the various housing estates.

I would like to touch on some of these complaints and inadequacies, in the balloting of flats we often notice prospective flat owners jumping up with joy or rubbing their hands with glee the moment it was announced that they have got their ideal flats, that is, on the lower floor or facing the desired direction. This gleeful expression is short-lived, and it soon turns to gloom when they receive the keys to the flat, because on inspection of the flats they will find so many defects which Members of this House have been complaining about. The most common defects are uneven floors, paint- or tar-soiled floors. My party office, for instance, I had to saw off the bottom of three doors in order to accommodate the unevenness of the floors. For those who can afford to relay the floors with mosaic, etc., it is all right. But what about those who cannot afford, especially the people resettled from other areas? I would suggest that the Housing Board contractors should be asked to place as a deposit a prescribed sum of money or a bank guarantee with the Board on the understanding that if defects are found such deposit would be confiscated and the contractor barred from Housing Board projects for a given period.

4.15 p.m.

I am not suggesting that the Housing Board has done nothing to rectify the defects found in the flats. It is the time taken and the haphazard manner in which the contractors put right the defects. One solution would be to allow flat owners to rectify the defects themselves and charge the cost to the Housing Board who will, in turn, recover this cost from the contractors responsible.

Mr Speaker, Sir, shopkeepers and hawkers are always at the receiving end of the stick. When they want to rectify any of the defects mentioned earlier, they are asked to pay a reinstatement deposit amounting to hundreds of dollars. It is a common practice for shopkeepers to display their wares or advertise their services in order to promote sales. Officials of the Housing Board are unduly strict in the application of regulations governing obstruction in common passage-ways. In one instance, shopkeepers in my constituency had their goods confiscated for allegedly causing obstruction. When I took this matter up with the Area Office, I was asked to refer it to the head office. The official in the head office told me that the problem could be easily settled if I were to ask the shopkeepers concerned to see him. When the shopkeepers called at his office, they were politely told that the goods had already been disposed of. All this happened in one day. Surely the HDB is not that efficient! When it comes to exercising their right, Housing Board officials are unusually quick on the draw. But when complaints are lodged, it takes a long time for them to act.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the present system of rentals for eating houses and hawker stalls in Housing Board estates could lead to many problems and abuses. The usual minimum rental for a eating house is around $700, but it is often tendered for as high as $3,000. To recover this amount, the shophouse tenant sublets as many cooked food stalls as the shop-house can accommodate at rentals between $100 and $600 each a month. In a coffee shop premises as much as 50% of the floor space is rented out to these cooked food stalls. The result is that patrons have to eat on five-foot ways and in adjacent empty spaces. Then here comes along a Housing Board official to take action against the offending coffee shop tenant. This goes on all the time.

Rentals for cooked food stalls arc the same, irrespective of the type of food sold in Housing Board hawker centres. For instance, an ice-water seller is charged the same rental as one who runs a restaurant type of business. The daily turnover of these two types' of business is poles apart. Such a situation gives rise to abuse and malpractice. It encourages stallholders to illegally sublet or assign their stalls to others for a profit. For example, if a person pays $500 to $600 for a stall in a coffee shop to sell Hokkien mee, a stallholder in the hawker centre near to the coffee shop can demand a similar rate for subletting or illegal assigning of his stall. In Hokkien, this term is known as pak hor Ian, or, in English it is known as Ali Baba type of business.

The Hon. Minister would probably ask me why I did not report this state of affairs. The reason is that it is very difficult to prove such wrong-doing as there is some collusion somewhere. I would suggest that offenders should be charged for corruption if they illegally sublet or assign their shophouse for a profit. Anyone who enters into such an arrangement makes exorbitant profits, all tax-free.

Sir, I would suggest the following proposals. The Housing Board should restrict the number of cooked food stalls allowed for subletting in coffee shops. It should be based on the proportion of the floor space available. In other words, if a coffee shop premises has a floor space of 3,000 sq, ft, so many square feet of space will be allowed for cooked food stalls and so many square feet for patrons. A ceiling should he placed on rentals for subletting, just like the maximum rental charged by flat owners who wish to sublet their flats. Rentals for cooked food stalls in hawker centres should he based on the type of food sold. In this way, we can minimise all the abuses and malpractices mentioned.

Sir, some of the hawker centres in Housing Board estates are badly planned. Two hawker centres in Toa Payoh have been reconstructed costing several hundred thousand dollars. Another one is earmarked for reconstruction. In some of these centres there is an excess of stalls in a certain trade and a shortage in others. There are either inadequate facilities or no access for hawkers to transfer their goods into the market. As a result passage-ways and footpaths are clogged with goods carriers left there by the hawkers. Some of the access facilities lead only half way into the market. Hawkers are compelled to make use of the paved areas around the market, thus causing more obstruction and littering. To overcome this problem and shortcoming, I would suggest that the Housing Board consult the MP in the area before constructing any hawker centre or market.

The Chairman: Mr Cheong, your ten minutes are up.

Mr Barker: Sir, if everything that the hon. Member has said is true, then he had better change his constituency. He won the last election quite easily, which means the people in his constituency are happy and, I repeat, if everything he says is true and the people there are so unhappy, then he had better watch out in the next elections.

But to be fair to the Housing Board, and I have not heard one good word about the Board in this House, it is doing a good job. The number of houses that it has built or is building under its programme over the last five years has increased four-fold. Today it is building about 25,000 units per year and the target is 30,000 in a year or two. But the actual volume of construction work is more than four times as the average sizes of the flats are more than twice those built earlier.

There is a shortage of skilled construction workers in the Republic. The workmanship has suffered somewhat not only because of the larger proportion of unskilled and semi-skilled workers but because of the increase in the numbers of buildings or building units that are being constructed every year. However, the structural soundness of the buildings is in no way affected. There is no short cut to training a large number of skilled workers. It requires several years of apprenticeship at the construction site. The Board has, in conjunction with the Industrial Training Board, sponsored a scheme to train more workers at construction sites. The response has not been very encouraging. The majority of our workers apparently prefer jobs in offices or hotels where they work in air-conditioned comfort.

The Member has asked for the retention of a deposit. The answer is that the Board has a system whereby it retains 5% of the contract price over a period of six months, in case there are defects to the buildings which have to be put right.

The Member complained about the Board's officers. I understand that the Board's Estate Officers and Assistant Estate Officers actively participate in Meet-the-People sessions with Members of Parliament in all the constituencies where there are HDB estates.

Some hon. Members: No.

Mr Barker: If not, then we will send some of these officers. Problems concerning tenants and flat owners are dealt with directly, wherever possible, to minimise bureaucratic red tape. Such participation by the Board's Estate Officers should promote goodwill between flat dwellers and the Board. As regards Estate Officers who are rude or do not do their work properly, disciplinary action will be taken against them. In fact, quite a few have been dismissed.

I do not think I need to say more except to assure the Member for Toa Payoh that we will seriously consider all the suggestions he has made and, wherever feasible, put them into practice.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Speaker, Sir, under this subhead several complaints have been made by various Members, but in so far as the issues I have brought up are concerned, the door is not slammed in my face. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn viz.

The Chairman: Probably it would be convenient at this stage to have a suspension. But before I suspend the sitting, may I make some remarks about my so-called ruling on the Chinese term "land cow". This happened during the sitting on the 23rd March, 1971, when I did indicate to Mr Teong not to use the term "land cow" but to use the word "inspector", as a certain Member of this House was particularly unhappy about the term "land cow". I did not then know why, but he was unhappy. Anyway, it was not a definite ruling as this Chinese term is one of common usage in Singapore and I am not an authority on Chinese usage here. So it is not a definite ruling.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took tile Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting now and will take the Chair again at 5.00 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.27 p.m, until 5.00 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.00 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head S (cont.) -

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 8301.

Sir, this amendment presents an opportunity to reopen the matter which the Minister has dealt with quite thoroughly. But maybe there are one or two matters, relating in particular to the clearance activity being undertaken in the new town, Ang Mo Kio, in my constituency, that need to be aired. The Minister has told the House that physical clearance of families who have received clearance notices actually takes place some months after notice of clearance and notice to quit are given to the families. This is quite true, Sir. But complaints have reached me from families being resettled in my constituency that while this is so, officials from the Resettlement Department continue to urge families having received such clearance notice to move out as quickly as possible. And all the time that this is being done the question of compensation entitlement of the families and the computation thereof have not been completed in the cases that have been referred to me. I would have thought that having given clearance notice to the families, the next thing that should be done by the Resettlement Department is to hastily decide the question of compensation entitlement and then `worry about computing the amount of compensation to be given before urging the families to move out.

The other matter relates also to resettlement in the sense that the Resettlement Officers go round to approve closure of ponds which are a basic factor in the livelihood of the farmers, even before computation of compensation or their entitlement is decided. This causes hardship to the farmers in the area. Ponds, on which they depend to feed their pigs and sometimes vegetable farms, need to be levelled off or covered over by the earth in the levelling process, and this also causes hardship to many families in my constituency.

I wish to bring notice of this development to the Minister because it appears to me and to the families in my constituency who are affected that the officers from the Resettlement Department may be over-enthused in their work. I am particularly worried when I read, for example, the 1973-74 Housing and Development Board Annual Report, under Resettlement, page 4, where the Resettlement Department talks about achieving an all-time record of resettling 12,067 cases in the 15-month period under review, and so on. This gives me the impression that the Department may be regarding such families as near cases to be resolved. But these are families whose lives are being disrupted and who have to change to a new means of livelihood. I hope the Resettlement Department will be prepared to extend human consideration to such cases and not treat them just as cases with an enthusiasm to outdo previous records in resettling families. I am sure the Minister will be able to undertake some action here to alleviate the worries of the families in my constituency.

Mr Barker: Sir, a notice to quit is served on all resettlement cases. This is a legal formality to enable the Department to obtain a warrant of dispossession from the Magistrates' Courts where those concerned do not move. With this warrant the Department can ensure that resettlement cases do not resist clearance when actual physical clearance is initiated. But the warrant is only used as a last resort and actual physical clearance is not initiated until alternative accommodation has been provided and computation of compensation to the prospective resettler has been made.

I can assure the Member for Serangoon Gardens that the Resettlement Department is not interested in breaking any records. The Department is under considerable pressure from various Ministries, not only from the Ministry of National Development as far as sites for housing are concerned but they have also the unpleasant task of resettling people in most parts of Singapore for practically every department. When tile Ministry of Defence wants large areas in Singapore for the requirements of the military, it is the Resettlement Department that has to do the dirty work. So it is under considerable pressure from the Ministry of Defence to do its resettling as soon as it is possible. If we are to provide cheap housing accommodation for people as in Ang Mo Kio, then they have to be resettled. But the Resettlement Department officers are not over-enthused with their work. As far as it is possible they are humane. As I said yesterday, resettlement is an unpleasant business hut it has to be done if Singapore is to be redeveloped. People sometimes get bitter especially when they have to be resettled twice. But this is happening in Singapore.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I accept the explanation given by the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo -

(18) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CDA 8103.

(19) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead CDB 8106.

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo, amendment (18).

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I am not moving my amendments (18) and (19) in view of the fact that in the debate on this Ministry a number of matters mentioned by the Minister relate to some of the queries that I intended to raise under these two subheads.

The Chairman: Very well. Mr Govindasamy.

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CDR 8106.

Sir, last year when $300,000 was appropriated for the widening of Upper Thomson Road and Sembawang Road I was relieved, and I thought that at last the bottleneck at Neo Soon was going to be eased and that there would be a free flow of traffic. But, sad to say, the bottleneck there has become more acute and traffic jams are more common now than ever before. Last year only S 10,000 was utilised, unfortunately. With the new Jurong Town Corporation flats coming up there, the expansion of the shipyard and the industrial estate in Sembawang, it is even more essential now to widen that road. I hope this year at least the amount appropriated will be utilised and some improvements made to this important road, especially with the industrial estate being built in Sembawang.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am grateful to the Member for Telok Blangah for moving this amendment. I share the sentiments expressed by him because with the expansion of Sembawang Shipyard, and other industrial projects the existing road is too narrow and it is not able to cope with the traffic during the peak hours in the morning or in the evening, resulting in congestion. The Member for Serangoon Gardens and the Member for Telok Blangah live in my constituency. They personally experience such traffic congestion when they go to work in the morning and return in the evening. The traffic congestion has become more and more serious. I would also like to support the suggestion put forward by the Member for Telok Blangah to widen he road in order to cope with tile traffic.

Mr Barker: Sir, I am glad for this opportunity to reply to both Members. My answer will put the Resettlement Department in a better light. They asked what have we done about this road since we had money last year but nothing was done. The answer is, there are problems in connection with resettlement and land acquisition. There are large numbers of resettlement cases, and at least 450 shops to be resettled. Hence the delay. In order to speed up construction, the road has been realigned, in consultation with the Housing and Development Board, to minimise the number of cases that need to be resettled. The Resettlement Department is not anxious to resettle people nor is it anxious to break records.

5.15 p.m.

The provision of $600,000 is only part of the amount for the widening of the entire Sembawang Road from Sembawang Hill Circus to Admiralty Gate. The project will be carried out in three stages and will cost more than $9 million when completed. Stage I from Mandai Road to Jalan Sembawang Kechil is targeted to begin in the third quarter o 1975. So I ask the Members to be a little patient. Work on Stage II from Sembawang Hill Circus to Mandai Road will begin in the first quarter of 1976, whilst Stage III from Jalan Sembawang Kechil to Admiralty Gate will start in the first quarter of 1978. When fully completed by the end of 1978, the road will be a dual carriageway with two traffic lanes in each direction. I hope this will keep Members happy, but this is all subject to resettlement.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, in view of the explanation given, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendment stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo -

(21) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CBD8113

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo, amendment (21)

Mr Rodrigo: I am not moving, Sir

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting-

(22) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be by $10 n respect of subhead CFB8104

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here.

The sum of $130,396,140 for head S ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $987,548,800 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Head T -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for the Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo, amendment (1)

Mr Rodrigo: I am not moving, Sir

The Chairman: Amendment (2), Dr Tan Eng liang is not here. Mr P. Govindaswamy, amendment (2)

5.20 p.m

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1105*. (*The same amendment also stood in the names of Dr. Tan Eng Liang and Mr Ho Kah Leong).

There has been a hint that medical charges may be further increased. This is not the first time that the charges have been increased ; in fact the medical charges have been increased too often. There is no doubt that cost in hospitals, clinics, etc., have gone up. But in this particular matter, we have to think very carefully before we increase the charges. If the increases are too great, it will affect those in the lower income group very badly. A person suffering from a cold or some disease may have to visit the Outpatients Department two or three times. The lower income group will suffer a great deal if they have to go to private clinics for treatment. I am afraid that tile people in this particular group have a tendency to go to tile quacks or to those Who call themselves doctors though they are not medically qualified in any way. The net result is that we may have people deformed or worse after the treatment received from these quacks. Therefore, these people have no choice but to go to Government clinics or hospitals for treatment, causing greater headaches to the doctors and staff in the hospitals. I would request the Minister to reconsider this question of the proposed increase in medical charges.

On this particular subject, I would again like to raise the problem of our nurses and doctors who are being worked to the bone in the hospitals, giving the public and perhaps even foreigners a very poor impression of tile Government medical service. This subject may be very stale, but in fact, it is repeated so often that no wonder there is an exodus of medical personnel to countries like Canada and Australia. We must try our best to retain these people as we need them so badly here. We should not close an eye to their problems for it will result in dissatisfaction and emigration to other countries by our doctors and nurses whom we need so badly in our own country. Something must definitely be done for them. Otherwise, if nothing is done we will have this problem year in and year out. The result will be a chronic congestion in the hospitals, overworked doctors and dissatisfied medical staff.

Sir, though a certain amount of publicity has been given to the zoning of hospitals, it is insufficient. My contention is that greater publicity should be given to this matter so that it will ease the confusion in the minds of the public.

I hope the new General Hospital that is being built in the grounds of the Out-ram Road General Hospital would he built in such a way that it will not in- convenience the sick, the aged and the disabled. In the present layout, patients have to walk long distances from one section to another for treatment. Take the example of a person who has a dislocation. He has to report at the Emergency Unit, then to the X-ray unit, then to the Orthopaedic Unit, then to X-ray Unit again, and back again 10 the Orthopaedic Unit. Making patients walk to and fro for long distances is not going tor had to be awakened to attend to the hospital or a well-run hospital, especially to those who are already in agony. No doubt at this point I may also mention one fact which has been taxing our minds. Let us hope that the extension of the hospital will be well planned so that it will not inconvenience the sick.

Next, may .I ask what is the procedure for treatment of children at outpatient clinics? In some cases school children who go to these clinics are not required to pay, and in other cases tile same children are required to pay. Payment seems to he at tile discretion o, the clerk in charge at the counter

Treatment at the Alexandra Hospital requires particular attention, especially after midnight. There was an occasion when the clerk in the Emergency Unit was in deep slumber and it took quite an effort to wake him up. Then the doctor had to be awakened to attend to the patient. This might have taken as much as half an hour. Surely, in the Emergency Unit, half an hour is a very very long time in which to save a person's life which sometimes can be decided in a matter of minutes. Furthermore, in the same hospital as far as medicine is concerned, the patient was not given any medicine. He had to go back the next morning for his medicine because the dispensary was closed. This caused further inconvenience. Something should be done to alleviate the suffering of the sick. They should not be forced to go back to the hospital again and again just to take a bottle of medicine or some pills.

Finally, there have been cases in some hospitals where wrong medicine had been given. As a result, I know of a patient who has developed an allergy even to panadol. Such mistakes would not have occurred if the doctors had not been overworked.

Sir, there was a case of a person who was warded in the Singapore General Hospital. A few days later he was transferred to another ward. On the day he was transferred, his wife went to visit him. At the ward she was told that he had been discharged and had gone home. This lady was happy that her husband had been discharged and went on her way home. At the bus stop she met her mother-in-law who was also on her way to see him. She told her mother-in-law that her husband had already been discharged. But her mother-in-law said that she came from home and had not seen him. So they decided to go home. When they reached home he was not to be found. Subsequently, they were worried and telephoned the hospital. The hospital staff failed to assist them and requested them to go to the hospital. Later, at the hospital, they finally learnt that the patient had been transferred to another ward. Sir, I want to know why these two women had to be inconvenienced. I hope the hospital staff could give proper information and not cause people to panic.

I also understand that patients in third class wards of Kandang Kerbau Hospital are not treated properly. I have received complaints that they are treated very badly by some of the staff.

The Minister for Health (Mr Chua Sian Chin): Sir, may I answer the Member for Anson point by point? Firstly, with regard to the raising of medical charges. As stated in the Addendum to the Presidential Address, increases in medical charges have become necessary because of the escalating costs. Costs have increased from 5% in 1952 to 25% in 1974. This will continue to escalate as prices of medicine, equipment, staff, follow inflationary trends. However, the increase in charges will remain nominal. For example, C class patients are now charged $3 a day for food, medical care and stay in hospital. But the actual cost per day of maintaining a patient is more than $40. Therefore, even if the charges are increased to $4 or $5 per day, it is still nominal. Increases in cost must be by taxpayers. It is only fair, therefore, that those who use the services should bear part of the cost in the form nominal fees. This is consistent oft repeated policy that in Singapore is for free. This prevent wastage. 5.30 p.m

On the question of patients resorting may I say this. In considering any increase fees, the Government is concerned as the Member for Anson its effects on the lower in-up. In fact, if a patient cannot pay even the nominal fee there on for the fee to be waived, as been done all along. Therefore, there is no reason for any person to quacks because of the increase medical charges. Attendance has, in fact, continued to increase at all our institutions and outpatient

Turning to the question of loss of medical staff, the Member for Anson said it as due to staff being overworked, and so on. He also said that it is a stale subject as it is often repeated from year to year. I agree with him that it is a tale subject. To me it sounds like playing an old gramophone record again. I have answered this question in my reply to the Member for Bras Basah last week . I stated quite clearly that positive Steps have been taken to attract as well s to retain more doctors in the service. May I say that there has been no exodus of doctors, as stated by the Member for Anson and predicted by the Member for Kim Seng last year. As far as nurses are concerned, they too have benefited from the implementation of the National Wages Council's recommendations. Their working conditions have also improved by shorter night duties. They now do three night shifts at a stretch instead of seven hitherto.

Regarding the zoning of hospitals which has been introduced recently, the Member complained about lack of publicity. Publicity was given prior to the implementation of the zoning of hospitals. Information for the public was given through the radio, television, press releases and press conferences. General practitioners were also informed separately by circulars and hospital staff were briefed. But, of course, whenever a new system is introduced there is bound to be teething problems. It is too early to say how successful this zoning will be. But it is important that zoning is implemented, otherwise the position will arise where certain hospitals are over-utilised and others under-utilised.

Turning to the complaint of the Member for Anson about patients having to walk long distances, thus causing inconvenience, and also matters relating to the running of the hospital, I agree with him that the present layout of the Outram Road General Hospital leaves much to be desired. Members may know that this Hospital was built more than half a century ago and over the years other buildings were added on without any systematic planning. This is one of the reasons for the building of a new Singapore General Hospital which will eventually replace the present Outram Road General Hospital. The Member for Anson is also worried about the designing of the proposed Singapore General Hospital. I can assure him that this new General Hospital is very carefully planned for maximum efficiency as well as for the convenience of patients and those who work in it. We have had the benefit of the expertise of international consultants as well as experienced medical administrators and Heads of Unit in the planning and designing of this Hospital. We have a Hospital Planning Committee working on it, and I personally chair a steering committee which oversees the development of this new Hospital.

The Member for Anson raised a complaint about someone who had a dislocation and in attending the Emergency Unit of the General Hospital he had to walk all the way to the Orthopaedic Unit for an X-ray. I do not think this is true because the Emergency Unit itself has an X-ray machine, and therefore there is no necessity for an X-ray to be taken in the Orthopaedic Unit. An X-ray can be taken and is being taken hi the Emergency Unit itself.

With regard to charges for school children who attend outpatient dispensaries, the answer is that school children who attend outpatient clinics are required to pay a nominal charge of 50 cents per attendance. However, school children who are referred to the Institute of Health for subsequent follow-up examination arising out of screening in schools do not have to pay any charges. That is a different matter.

Regarding the allegation of staff found asleep on duty at the Emergency Unit of Alexandra Hospital and had to be awakened to attend to cases, I say that this is a very serious matter. Any staff in the Emergency Unit found asleep on duty will have to face disciplinary action. I am also surprised that the Member has not thought it fit to write a complaint to me so that the matter can be investigated and action taken if there is negligence of duty.

The other complaint is about patients who after treatment in the Emergency Unit had to go back the next day to get the medicine. Let me tell the Member for Anson that after any treatment given at the Emergency Unit, the patient will get the medicine straightaway because medicine is stocked in the Emergency Unit itself.

As regards the allegation of wrong medicine being given to the patient, and allergy developed as a result, I say again that this is a very serious allegation. May I invite the Member to give me the particulars of the case so that an investigation can be carried out and action taken against the particular staff.

Regarding the complaint about a husband having been warded in one hospital and later transferred to another hospital and the wife on a visit to the husband was told that he had been discharged and had gone home. On the way back she met her mother-in-law who was not aware of the patient's discharge and transfer to another hospital. First of all I do not know about the case. If details were given to me I would have investigated the case: to find out who was at fault. There may be many explanations as to how it all happened. Usually before a transfer is made, the next-of-kin will be informed. In this particular case I do not know whose name was given when the patient was admitted, the mother-in-law's name or the wife's name. So if it was the mother-in-law's name, then the mother-in-law would have been informed and she would have known about it.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Point of clarification, Sir.

Mr Chua Sian Chin resumed his seat.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I mentioned that the husband was transferred to another ward. When the wife could not find her husband, she asked the staff. The hospital staff told her that he was already discharged. On the way back home she met her mother-in-law who was also going to see her son. She told her mother-in-law that he was already discharged and, therefore, both went home. However, when they went home they were surprised that he was not there. They therefore telephoned the hospital, but the staff told them that they had to go back to the hospital. Later they found out that he had been transferred to another ward. The question is why cause such inconvenience to people? The hospital must have a record of the transfer of patients.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, if the particulars are given to me, I shall get the other version. Usually before transfers are made, the next-of-kin would be informed. A transfer of a patient cannot be made without informing the next-of-kin. Of course, it depends on whose name was given on admission as the next-of-kin. Unless the next-of-kin's name is given, the hospital would not be in a position to inform.

With regard to records, there are records kept of transfers. Anyway, I am in no position to go into the details of this case at the moment. If the Member would write in, I am sure he will be given a satisfactory answer. If anyone is found guilty of negligence of official duty, then disciplinary action will be taken against him.

With regard to tile matter about bad treatment of third class patients in the Kandang Kerbau Hospital, I think a general allegation is not helpful. If there are particular cases where nurses are rude or patients are neglected, if details are given then they will be investigated. In fact, any complaint, not necessarily from Members of Parliament only but also from members of the public, is seriously looked into and investigated.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Minister himself must see what happens in the hospital. To do that, he must pay a surprise visit to the hospital. He must not let the staff know in advance of his visit, otherwise everything will appear efficient and properly run.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: For the information of the Member, I do make visits without announcing in advance.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, 1 beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

5.45 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CBA 1107.

Sir, in the Outpatient Clinic at the General Hospital can something be done to ensure that appointments with patients if made are promptly kept? Quite often, patients for whom appointments are made to see the specialist are kept for hours at a time through no fault of the specialist. This is the result of poor coordination between those who do tile paper work and those who do the practical work.

Recently, there was a case where a patient whose appointment was at 9.45 am, was kept waiting for more than two hours before he could see the specialist in the Orthopaedic Unit. This is simply because tile specialist had either gone out to conduct certain lectures or had to attend to some other business. The patient, together with many others, had to wait for two whole hours.

If only those who made the appointment could foresee the doctor's timetable, then this unnecessary waiting could have been avoided. Those patients could have spent the two hours usefully.

Doctors at the OPD are overworked. They sometimes have to attend to as many as 100 patients per day so much so that they sometimes prescribe the wrong medicine. The doctors are not to be blamed. They can only work to a certain level with efficiency. Beyond that, efficiency drops. One cannot he at his peak of efficiency at all times, especially when a doctor has to treat more than 100 patients per day.

Certainly something could be done to alleviate the work of the doctors at tile OPDs, they are human too. They too require a certain amount of rest. They can work with optimum efficiency for a certain period. Furthermore, if these doctors are overworked, we are just encouraging more resignations. In certain outpatient clinics the staff is so inadequate that the amahs are asked to carry out some of the minor duties of the nurses, like taking temperature. Surely an amah is not qualified in any way to attend to a patient. Such things would not occur if there is sufficient staff in the outpatient clinics.

Sir, in these clinics the doctors may he overworked to such an extent that they become careless. There was the case of a girl who went to the OPD for treatment. Although she was suffering from severe pain she was told that there was nothing wrong with her and was told to go back to work. At the office tile head of department noticed her condition and wrote a note and asked her to go to the OPD once again. At the OPD the doctor just gave her a day's medical leave. It was 3.00 p.m, then but she was told to go off. The girl had no choice but to see a private doctor who examined her thoroughly and he finally managed to cure her. This carelessness would not have occurred if doctors at the OPD are not overworked.

Sir, some doctors at the OPD just give a quick examination of the patients and ask them to buy Panadol. If a patient is charged a fee for the treatment, proper medicine must be given to them. If the treatment is not effective, they have to go to a private doctor. In this way, they will have to spend more money. Can the Minister look into the matter?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I take the first point about the appointment system. With regard to appointments, both the doctor and patient should keep to their time of appointment. Unfortunately, in practice, there have been a number of instances where the times allotted could not be strictly adhered to. This is because consultations with some patients may take a longer time than usual. There are also instances where because of the number of emergency cases which the doctors have to attend to, it is not possible for them to keep their appointments at the scheduled times. Nevertheless, studies are now being made to computerise and to assign more staff to the various outpatient clinics in order to reduce inconvenience of waiting.

With regard to the Member's allegation that doctors at outpatient dispensaries are overtaxed, may I say that the average number of patients seen by a doctor at the outpatient dispensary is between 80 and 100 a day. This average has not changed over the years. It is accepted that attention to individual patients could be improved if the doctor had fewer patients to see. Each doctor has his own duty and will be well occupied in his own way, since he is a professional man who looks after the patient in his own way.

The present workload of 80 to 100 patients a day cannot be said to be unreasonable. Of course, there are occasions when, as in outbreaks of flu, epidemics, etc., the workload of the doctors at the outpatient dispensaries can be considered to be very heavy, as expected. But in normal times it cannot be said that their workload is heavy.

As regards the allegation that amahs have been asked to do simple nursing duties, this is not permitted at all. This is yet another instance in which the Member has not submitted a specific complaint so that an investigation could be made.

May I say that proper medicine is prescribed at the outpatient dispensaries. The Member has quoted the case of a girl who had to go to a private practitioner because she could not get a medical certificate or treatment in the outpatient dispensary. Again it is only proper that the details of this matter should be given to me. But may Is say this in general? Medical certificates a the not issued on demand but on the condition of the patients. If there is no justification in giving medical leave, a medical certificate will not be issued.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Hon. Minister in reply said that tile doctors are not over worked. May I suggest that times taken to determine how long it take a doctor to see a patient. From these we can calculate and tell whether the doctor is overworked or not. A doctor usually takes only two or three minute to examine a patient. As a result, the patients are not properly examined.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, whether a doctor can s 80 or 100 patients a day is, in fact, professional matter. Of course, common sense tells us that not every case is same. Some cases take a longer time while others do not. On the average a professional doctor has been able attend 80 to 100 cases a day, and the average has been maintained for number of years. If a case can be diagnosed within a short time, I do not think a longer examination would reveal anything more than what was already done in the shorter period of time. The professional doctors tell me that their workload is reasonable; and that is that, unless the Member can give examples to show in what way the workload is too heavy for the doctors.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I am not very satisfied with the Minister's reply. I suggested that times be taken to determine how many patients a doctor can see in a day. By taking these times we can calculate the average number of patients a doctor can see in a day so that the patient can be thoroughly examined. Anyway I do not want to prolong the debate, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting -

(4) That the total sum to be allocated for Head T in respect of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Mr Ng is not moving.

The sum of $162,575,460 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $33,945,200 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.