MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1976 TO 31ST MARCH, 1977

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [4th Allotted Day]

2.43 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head Q --

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Teong Eng Siong, L.P. Rodrigo, Hwang Soo Jin. P. Govindaswamy, Ch'ng Jit Koon and Dr Chiang Hai Ding.)

Mr Speaker, Sir, culturally we have always been conscious of our rich and varied heritage, and have expressed pride in our cultural diversity. The Ministry of Culture has given as much encouragement to the reflection of the variety of our cultural potential as limited financial allocations would allow. I think I must emphasise here "as limited financial allocations would allow". More recently we have had the development of such activities as Music for Everyone, Art for Everyone, Concert for the Young, and various exhibitions. But I think my point about financial allocations, and therefore constraint upon effort, may be illustrated.

For example, in a Ministry whose avowed aim is nurturing and development of culture, there is only one cultural affairs officer. I understand he is assisted by a very small number of officers, perhaps two or three officers. The Minister may be able to enlighten us there. What can this small, even if gallant, handful of people do? How many cultural events have they been able to organise, and for how many people? Compare this number with what reasonable number would indicate an effective spread of influence of these cultural events. Such a kind of examination would serve as an indicator to show the extent to which we are committed to a policy of encouraging cultural development.

2.45 p.m.

There are other indicators. If we examine another item of expenditure we can get a good idea of how a policy is reflected in budget allocations. For example, for the promotion of cultural matters and exhibitions, there has been an increase of allocation from $65,000 for last year to $105,000 for this coming financial year, which (mind you) includes a sum of $30,000 that is subject to Treasury sanction, While the Minister for Culture is no doubt grateful for such small mercies, it would be interesting to find out what we are getting with this kind of money. Perhaps the Minister could tell us later.

What appears to be happening in the case of the activities like Art for Everyone, and Concert for the Young, and so on, is that they seem to be organised on an ad hoc basis and this is because there is not very many staff to look after these events. Like when it is come to be known that some artistes are passing through, or when a local military band is available for some performance. There does not seem to be any sequential programme planned or any particular aim that is discernible in the arrangement of the events in such items as Music for Everyone and Concert for the Young, although one must admit that an idea like the Beautiful Singapore Art Exhibition does have a worthwhile theme.

To take yet another illustration, if you look at the National Theatre Trust Annual Report for 1974-75, you will find that its first preoccupation is major renovations to the Theatre and expenditure. This kind of thing represents its principal problem. What else can the Trust do except what it has done, namely, enter into joint presentation with other organisations. All the same, with limited resources the Trust seems to have done well. But again its dependence on sponsors is a clue to the extent of official support for its work.

An exceptional, important role as everybody knows is that played by broadcasting: perhaps, especially, by TV in respect of giving expression to cultural policies. In this regard, for further contribution to a sense of belonging, to a consciousness of community. TV has to turn to encouraging greater understanding among our citizens of one another's cultural forms. People have to be stimulated into a more heightened awareness of, and interest in the various characteristic forms of cultural expression. And the stimulus can be provided by RTS if it sets its mind to it and if it gets the support; if it is the policy to require it to do this kind of thing.

However, just as an illustration, what is the position at present in terms of programmes that are viewed by a mixed viewership, by a multi-lingual viewership, by a viewership composed of audiences from the different language streams at the same time? I am just trying to illustrate a certain condition in our society. The programmes that get a multi-lingual viewership are the imported programmes, especially in English and mainly in the crime and violence. entertainment, and full-length film categories. And these programmes would perhaps occupy as much as half of TV time during a week. At the same time, one other programme that gets a mixed audience, a multi-lingual audience, is Justice Pao. Incidentally, this popularity of Justice Pao with a multi-lingual audience shows that a programme with a cultural flavour of one of the main cultural streams of our society can, can indeed, have an audience transcending a particular ethnic group. Unfortunately, here again. Justice Pao is also an imported programme.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Pao Piao.

Mr Conceicao: Yes, we will come to Pao Piao. Otherwise, we do not seem to be able to break through beyond insular situations when one ethnic group is watching programmes only in its own language. Let me make it plain that it is good that entertainment be provided for Tamils to watch Tamil cinema and Malays to watch Pesta Ria and Chinese to watch Pao Piao, but we want something in addition to this where their sights are taken beyond their own cultural boundaries. I hope that the Minister will not retort like he did the last time when I said the same thing, hsin p'ing, chit, chiu new bottles, old wine. I hope I got the pronunciation right. Culture is a laborious process of growth and points have to be reiterated in order to arouse adequate attention, especially as adequate attention does not seem to have been aroused previously.

If I may make one last point that relates to our young people, we should think of providing them with more opportunities to continue the cultural interest they have developed in schools which have been encouraged by the Ministry of Education's Extra-Curricular Activities programmes, youth festivals, band competitions, and so on. I have also mentioned the view held by some young people themselves that not enough is done to set the sights of our young people beyond their immediate surroundings. In this connection, perhaps TV could produce programmes on ASEAN problems, matters, background and other regional themes, gradually extending the focus in a more global direction. We, of course, have Newsreel but the shots of Newsreel comprise mere flashes and there is no depth analysis of events that take place around us. We have thought and talked about the necessity to carry the attention of our young people beyond their immediate preoccupations. Perhaps our organisation has not arrived at a standard when we can produce programmes like Panorama and 24 Hours that I have noticed, and I am sure the Minister has himself noticed, on BBC and British Television, but we should certainly try to encourage a more particular appreciation of the larger world around us where our young people are concerned.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Sir, the Ministry of Culture certainly has great responsibilities to discharge. On the one hand, it will have to actively propagate a multi-racial culture and values of our people. On the other hand, it will have to raise the cultural quality of our people, their thoughts and character, in order to cultivate them to be people of good quality. This is not an easy task.

Over the last few years, the Ministry of Culture has actually put in some effort in the promotion of various healthy cultural and artistic activities, such as the holding of public art exhibitions, the organising of public music concerts for the people and so on, to popularise artistic tastes and appreciation among the people. Radio and TV Singapore have also put forward a number of good programmes such as students' debating forums which help them to have a better understanding of and interest in current affairs and in academic studies. There have also been programmes like News Magazine, Children's Magazine, Daily Digest which are meaningful as well as educative. However, the number of such healthy programmes is too small. On the contrary, there is a greater number of nonsensical programmes which outweigh and nullify the influence of healthy programmes. In spite of the cultural contribution of the Ministry of Culture, there exist in our society also undesirable cultural pieces in the form of sensual, erotic, monstrous and phantasmic films, literature and pictures which exert a great degenerating and corrupting effect on our people, our youth in particular. and turning them into a weak lot. So for the future of our youths, our task now is to strengthen our healthy cultural force in order to promote and popularise healthy and artistic cultural activities so as to help them recognise their values and be able to distinguish the good from the bad. This will benefit them in their life-time.

Among our youths, there is a sign of decadence. It is mainly because of the fact that some of them have been affected by the bad habits of Western youths. They take to a life of enjoyment, are easy-going and are not interested in our healthy cultural and artistic performances. This is a very urgent task pertaining to the pattern of thought of our youths that is facing the Ministry of Culture and all of us. Obviously, the main task of the Ministry of Culture is how to face this challenge, how to help the young to be receptive to good culture and to rectify their errors and wrong thinking and to recognise which type of culture will bring them beneficial influence. In this way, we can mould our youths into a great force in our nation building and cultural development.

Sir, I would now like to advance four suggestions to the Minister for his reference, to help policy formulation. First, this concerns the work of raising the consciousness of our people; in other words, national consciousness. What kind of plan, of organized activities is the Ministry of Culture going to take in order to promote our cultural quality? Second, will the Minister consider reducing the rental charged for the use of our National Theatre, the Victoria Memorial Hall, or reducing the entertainment duty on certain performances in order to help more artistes, both local and foreign, to perform in Singapore? These will include pugilistics, music and concert shows. At the moment, because of the high charges, interested organisers do not find it easy to organise such performances. So our people are deprived of more opportunities to enjoy such performances of a higher standard.

Third, whether the Ministry has taken note of the many undesirable, phantasmic and erotic literature and pictures being put on sale in the streets. Last year I asked the Minister about this and he promised to look into it. One year has passed. How is it that this sort of thing is still going on? Is it because the staff in the Ministry of Culture are not efficient in their work, or is it because the staff concerned are not willing to shoulder their responsibilities?

Fourth, what plans the Ministry of Culture has in the promotion of various community cultures and artistic activities? All these traditional many-splendoured cultures and arts should be propagated because they will help to enrich our cultural heritage and, at the same time, give us a good image internationally, besides boosting our tourism.

3.00 p.m.

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): Sir, one of the hazards of being on good terms with the Member for Katong is that in allowing him to speak ahead of you on a head of expenditure such as this, you find that there is not much else to say. I quite realise that in a debate, repetition is inevitable. But in this remarkable incident, if I were to speak it might appear that the Member for Katong had stolen my notes last night and formulated the address which he has so ably presented this afternoon! So I have nothing more to add but to concur with all that the Member has said in regard to policy and to support him fully in his suggestions.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Sir, what has the Government done in the encouragement of cultural development, and what exactly is the Government's cultural policy? These are questions people often ask. Frankly I do not know the answer and I do not think many do. Indeed, doubts have just been expressed by the Member for Katong. Out of the total Main Estimates of $44.7 million, $23.1 million or more than 50% goes to the maintenance of the Broadcasting Department; and out of the total Development Estimates of $14.7 million. $8.5 million or close to 60% goes towards the further expansion of the Broadcasting Department. Figuratively it would appear that the Ministry of Culture is primarily concerned with the promotion of TV culture. If this is the case then, rather than mislead the people, I would suggest that a more appropriate title for the Ministry would be the Ministry of Broadcasting!

If we are serious about cultural development and firmly believe it to be a vital part of nation-building, a lot more effort will have to be put in. First of all, let us identify the correct direction of development so that hopefully we could in time, have a distinctive culture that we can truly call our own. I do appreciate this may take years, if not generations, but then the foundation has to be laid. During the past 10 years we have done little to patronise the arts. They have been left largely on their own. Until today we do not have a decent art gallery. Notwithstanding the small size of our Republic. I agree with the Member for Jurong when he spoke recently during the debate on the Budget that there is a need and we could easily support a national academy of arts and music. But today the learning of arts and music remains largely the privilege of the affluent few, as only they can afford the high tuition fees. Artists have no place in our society. This is reflected by the fact that seldom do we see them featured in our National Day Honours list.

The Hon. Minister for Culture and the Deputy Prime Minister are frequently seen patronising Cantonese operas performed by visiting artistes, and yet we ban street wayangs which surely are much more relevant to our cultural heritage than the imported operas. I am all for economic development, but I would hate to see all Singaporeans becoming economic animals lacking the ability to appreciate the finer things in life which are not necessarily obtainable with money alone. I do not profess to be a man of culture or to know very much about culture, unlike my Hon. Friend, the Member for Katong. But to me, quality of life in a society should not be measured simply in terms of per capita income, number of TV sets owned, heights of buildings or the number of chimney stacks at industrial estates. These materialistic things are important and vital for our survival, but so is the spiritual aspect of life. Grantinq that economic development should be given top priority in the context of Singapore, and we should be thankful that the Government has done well in this direction, however I suspect there is generally a misconception that the promotion of culture has no relevance to economic growth. We are doing well in tourism. I think we can do better if there are more activities of a cultural nature.

There are many examples around the world where promotion in cultural activities has directly and indirectly benefited tourism. Take, for example, the very successful Edinburgh Festival and the National Eisteddfod held in Britain and indeed many other similar Festivals held annually in other countries are major tourist attractions. Sir, our own excellent efforts in turning the Republic into a Garden City have helped in no small measure to draw tourists to Singapore. This leads me to think that if we promote Culture with the same heart and soul as we put into the promotion of Horticulture, I feel sure that the Nation will derive tremendous benefits both spiritually and economically.

Sir, with rapid urban redevelopment our City will soon lose many of our traditional characteristics. Has it ever occurred to the Ministry that before the bulldozers move into any one area, it would perhaps be a good idea to systematically capture either on films or canvas personally I would prefer canvas so that our local painters can be commissioned to do the jobs scenes that may soon be no more so that the generations coming after us will at least have some idea as to the environment of their forefathers. Sir, in many cities in the world permanent open-air display centres are provided for artists -painters and sculptors. The provision of similar facilities at the pedestrian mall in Orchard Road is at present under active consideration by the Urban Redevelopment Authority, but strangely enough the idea did not originate from the Ministry of Culture. Surely there must be many other ways to promote cultural activities which will not cost the Government too much if we are too concerned about money.

Dr Chiang Hai Ding (Ulu Pandan): Sir, after listening to the Member for Katong, who made a very plaintive speech. I suspect that the solution to his problem may not lie in transferring wine from one kind of bottle to another but in inviting the Minister to drink the wine that he offers year in and year out, always under the present circumstances with such good spirit.

Singapore is located at an international cross-road. It has a relatively open society and is therefore subjected to many cultural influences. Our people are regularly reminded by the political leadership of our need for "cultural ballast".

We have furthermore, in the last decade and a half, literally transformed the life-style of our people. More than half live in high-rise flats instead of kampong-type environments. We are now also engaged in manufacturing. industry, shipbuilding and repairing, banking and other services, whereas previously our people were essentially traders.

In the process we have become collectively richer. Our Gross Domestic Product at factor cost rose four times from $3,043.4 million in 1965 to $12,831.7 million in 1975. Our per capita GDP in 1965 was $1,566. By 1975 it also rose almost four times to $5,917.

Mr Speaker, we have an economic policy which, the Member for Jalan Kayu has just told us, is eminently successful. We have a labour policy, a foreign policy, a defence policy, even a policy for sports. In education, as this House was reminded, so forcefully reminded, we have policies galore.

But what is our cultural policy? What are our plans and objectives? Seventeen years have passed since we formed the government, ten since we became independent. Where are we now?

Are we culturally an identifiable people? Are there, for example, songs that we, or our children, can all sing? Or dances that they can all enjoy? Are there any particular art forms that we have consciously promoted for our people's appreciation?

I am sure that Singaporeans are not merely people sporting short hair, most of whom should not smoke and many of whom are illiterate in two languages.

It pains me to propose a cut of $ 10/- from the Minister. He needs, or his Ministry needs, every cent it can get.

I know that we cannot measure culture in quantitative terms. But I ask Members to join me to look at how much we have spent on Culture since we became independent ten years ago. Through the courtesy of the staff of Parliament every Member should have on his chair an Appendix (See cols 711-2) setting out the percentage of the Ordinary and Development Estimates that this House voted for Culture since 1965. If you look at the figures in the Appendix*, it will bear out the limited financial allocations that we have made to Culture, In the Ordinary Estimates the percentage allocated to Culture of the total fell steadily from a high of 3.9% in 1965 to 1.5% in 1975/76. The figure proposed for 1976/77 is 1.4%.

In the Development Estimates the story is about the same except for a bump in 1972-75. Otherwise, once again we see a decline from 1.5% in 1965 to 0.55% in 1975/76. The figure proposed for 1976/77 is 0.56%.

It is time that we defined our cultural policy and produced a plan to promote culture in Singapore. There are people' and institutions in Singapore interested in promoting culture. They need the support and leadership from Government. If the Minister has a policy and a plan now, I am sure many members will be delighted to hear it. If not. I trust that this time next year he will unveil his programme. Once that is articulated, we can discuss, argue and begin to implement decisions. And this House, I am confident, will vote to Culture, the appropriate sums to carry out its work.

For now, it is my regret to move to reduce subhead AAA 1004 by $10.

3.15 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, we have been promoting the concept of multi-racialism in Singapore for many, many years. In the past, most of the periodicals, circulars, posters, signboards, etc, were usually printed in the four official language media. But, of late, this is not so. The periodicals, circulars, posters and signboards are printed in either three or even in two languages. What has happened to the other languages? Is the Ministry of Culture short of translators? Or are the other languages simply left out? I hope the Ministry of Culture is being fair to every language group in any printing that they do, so that everyone knows what is happening.

Next, I want to deal with the question of the Singapore culture. We have been talking so much about building a Singapore culture. I wonder how successful we have been so far in building a Singapore culture. This is evident only when our cultural troupe is sent abroad to perform, when we would have the people from the National Theatre Trust representing the various cultures in Singapore. Other than this, there is nothing much to show locally about our Singapore culture. Even TV or Radio Singapore for that matter has not taken any step to produce any programme in the four languages. What we view in these programmes is that each group looks after its own traditions and culture, If this continues, we will never succeed in achieving our plan of building a Singapore culture.

I would suggest that there should be greater coordination among the various cultural organisations with emphasis placed on the existence of a multi-racial society. More multi-racial shows should be organised at different levels, otherwise each racial group would be left to itself and there would be no unity in the cultural aspect.

Sir, it was published in the newspapers that a Tamil film would be shown at 10 o'clock last night but it did not start until 10.1 5 p.m. Why is there this discrimination against, the Tamil language?

The Minister for Culture (Mr Jek Yeun Thong): It is because of the Parliamentary Report.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Then why was it published as 10 o'clock? They should publish it as 10.15 p.m. I am saying that they are discriminating against the Tamil language.

Some Hon. Members: That is rot true!

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon is not here. Mr Jek.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Speaker, Sir, this is again another debate on cultural affairs and, as usual, the complaint is on the amount of money to be spent on Culture. I must thank Members for showing concern in this subject and their support for more funds.

I must point out to Members that cultural development and cultural activities in any society always come after other priorities. It is only after the society is reasonably secure and properly educated with reasonable prospects for economic advancement that the society has the time and also the money for cultural activities. Nevertheless, we have been able to do a lot of things which we think are good for the development of culture within the very small budget that we are allocated.

I have pointed out time and again that cultural matters cannot be quantified. It does not mean that the more you squander on it the better the culture you will get. I agree with the Member for Jalan Kayu that a lot more effort has to be put in. I also agree with his remarks that a society cannot be measured by economic growth. So the cultural development of a society cannot also be measured by the amount of money spent on it.

What is the cultural policy? I am told there is a lack of this cultural policy. But is this not better than pronouncing an abstract policy which we can never fulfil because of lack of funds and manpower? Would it not be more realistic to build on what we have? I am not saying that we do not have a cultural policy. We have, but as with things cultural, it is imperceptible. What do we know about culture? What can we say about culture? What is culture? It is all over us. It is like air and water which we can never get out of it. It is all around us. So a good cultural policy must have a realistic footing and then build on it what we already have. But what do we have? We have an island of two million people, the majority of whom have brought their own customs and cultures from China, India, Malaysia and Indonesia, and an increasing number are under the influence of Western culture.

In these circumstances, it is obvious that our first target, if we do have a cultural policy, is to preserve what we have - the good virtues which are traditionally handed down from generation to generation. Then we go on by trying to make everyone understand how the others live or think, so that a sense of tolerance and racial harmony can prevail and with a respect for the other's virtues, thinking and way of life.

This brings me to the point which the Member for Katong has termed "cross-fertilisation" among the people from the different cultural streams. I think there is no lack of cross-fertilisation in our society. What the Broadcasting Department and the Ministry of Culture are doing is to emphasise such intermingling of different races from the many cultural streams. There is no escape from this kind of intermingling in our society. Whether a person likes it or not, he is exposed to the different pulls. A Chinese may not want to know what the Malays do in a wedding or in their prayers, but if his neighbour is a Malay who is holding a wedding function, there is no escape for him. Whether or not he is curious, he is exposed to this going-on in his environment. In this respect, I think there is no hindrance to the free flow of cultural exchange. What we are doing in the Ministry of Culture is to help give this an emphasis.

This is reflected in the TV programmes and the Radio talks and the many other things which are undertaken by the various organisations under the Ministry of Culture. For instance, the National Library, through its branch libraries, organises film shows, lectures and demonstrations on such subjects as Indian dance. Chinese painting and Malay music, in the four languages. There are also explanations of Indian music on Radio in English and in other languages. I am not saying that this is going to be a determining factor in promoting this intermingling or in breaking down cultural barriers, but this has been the policy of the Ministry. This is reflected in all the organisations under it and in the production of programmes on TV and Radio.

I must say that so far this has been successful and we intend to carry on this kind of development. I am sure that in time to come and with more effort being put in by the various people, this intermingling of different cultures will emerge.

The Member for Sembawang has asked me four questions. First, what are we going to do about promoting a sense of national consciousness or reminding the citizens of their responsibilities? What are we going to do to heighten their national pride? I would say that this is not only the duty of the Ministry of Culture but, in fact, it is the duty of everyone in this society to help promote this national pride and a sense of national consciousness. Of course, the exhibitions, talks and speeches that Members of Parliament give in the various community centres and functions will help. But I think we must also be warned that we should not be naive and deceive ourselves that by blaring into people's ears we would be able to create good citizens out of them.

3.30 p.m.

To have national pride and to make people realise their responsibilities, we must have discipline. We must impose discipline if something is to be done. Although publishing speeches will make things easier, laws and other firmer measures are required. For instance, it is very easy to expect people to behave well in public and to observe cleanliness and so on. But I doubt very much if without any penalties and fines laid down in the laws anyone of us here would pay our tax willingly without any grudge. Without any penalties to follow up, people would not observe the rules of cleanliness in public. I would be exaggerating the power of my Ministry if I say that we can actually make people change their attitude overnight without firm measures to back us up. If they want sugar coating, we can give it to them, but it is the medicine that we want them to take, As the Chinese saying goes, "Good medicine is bitter to the mouth."

On the question of reducing rentals for use of the National Theatre and the Victoria Theatre, I am afraid that although there are concession rates for amateur performances, we cannot give concessions in most cases since the organisations are performing many different types of variety shows, some of which are profit-making and some are not, In this respect, it is difficult to give everyone a concession rate for use of the National Theatre and the Victoria Theatre.

In the case of concession of entertainment duty for cultural performances. I must say that there is no concession rate whatsoever. But there is provision for the waiver of entertainment duty in respect of shows which are of cultural and educational nature. If the shows are for charitable purposes, the Customs and Excise Department would also consider waiving such duties. But every case will be considered on its own merit and the Ministry of Finance will decide whether or not entertainment duty can be waived.

The Member for Anson has complained that we have not used the four languages in some of our signboards, posters, circulars and so on. He has also pointed out that there has been some discrimination. He should never forget that there is no discrimination of language. This is the last thing we will have. It is never our intention at all to discriminate our citizens whether it be language, culture or education. The signboards, circulars and periodicals are not produced by my Ministry alone but by the various Ministries. I do not want to speak for the other Ministries. But I can venture a guess. It may well be that they have adopted this for the sake of simplicity and convenience. But whatever they do, it is not done to discriminate against any community in our society. The purpose of distributing pamphlets or putting up signboards is to make people understand clearly about certain things. They may want to show people certain places. It is to explain what that place is. If they can achieve their purpose in a very simple manner, then they would do it. I do not want to speak for the other Ministries, but this is what. I think, is going on.

As I have already explained, evolving a Singapore culture is time-consuming and a very slow process. But while Singapore culture is a faceless one and still an unknown factor, it would be a pity to throw away the various dances, music and the colourful costumes of the dances of our different races. In our production of cultural programmes, whether on TV or through a presentation of dances by the cultural dance troupe, we have always been mindful of the need to project the multi-lingual and multi-cultural aspects of our society. Whether it is the People's Association Dance Troupe or the National Theatre Dance Troupe, this emphasis is always there.

The Member for Jalan Kayu has mentioned that at present there is a need for an art gallery. He has suggested that a National Academy of Arts and Music should be formed. In this respect, I must inform him that the art gallery at the National Museum, for which the Art Council has contributed funds, is almost completed. We are putting the finishing touches to it. On the question of establishing a National Academy of Arts and Music, I must say that this is a tremendous task. Based on the size of our population, the amount of talent that we can tap, the job opportunities for the graduates, and so on, this may not be feasible.

I quite agree with the Member that artists and writers seldom appear on our National Day Honours list. However, if they are artists of exceptional skill and reputation, they will be given due recognition. As a matter of fact, the Ministry of Culture is contemplating to introduce a system of awards to encourage people who have been active in the field of art and culture.

As regards street wayangs, we have never tried to ban them. Our policy is to improve the performances of street wayangs so that they will have a better content in their performances. Although I am a lover of the Cantonese opera, I do not dislike other forms of operas. I think what has prompted the Member to say that we have banned street wayangs is that over the past year we have reduced the number of sites for performances of these wayangs. But this was done not to ban or eliminate these operas or wayangs but to prevent noise pollution as well as to ease traffic congestion. As Members know, urban renewal projects are going on in our city and many old streets have disappeared from the street map. The sites, of course, will also disappear. It is rather difficult for the wayang sites to be located in the new housing estates. Hence, the difficulty of getting sites for wayangs in the new environment. Moreover, the residents of the new housing estates may also not like them. They create problems of health and noise pollution. Mr Speaker, Sir, this is what I can reply at the present moment.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, there are quite a number of Members who have talked on the subject of Culture. In the Minister's reply, he seems to have forgotten my question regarding undesirable literature.

3.45 p.m.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: I am sorry, Sir, the Member for Sembawang has complained that a lot of undesirable publications on sex and violence are on sale either under the counter or above the counter in the bookshops. This is not the case. The Publications Section of the Ministry of Culture keeps a very close watch on publications. Books come in from abroad. Hard-core pornographic books, perhaps on the exploitation of sex, are not allowed for distribution in the bookshops. But the problem here is that some books and magazines may come in under the veil of sex education. As you know, with the rapid changes in Western societies, the demarcation line is so thin that sometimes these books that may be classified as sex education may just slip through the net. But whatever it is, it is not the deliberate policy of my Ministry to allow hard-core pornography to circulate in the bookshops.

As I have explained just now, the kind of activities that we are going to have in the years to come include instituting the Award of Culture for meritorious activities in the cultural field. There would also be a lot of exhibitions and cultural performances that would get things going.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, as I said earlier on, not being a man of culture, I do not know very much about culture. But I must say that I am no wiser now than before the Minister started his speech as to which direction to take. I would rather go along with the Hon. Member for Ulu Pandan. Perhaps if the Hon. Minister could draw up a concrete plan of cultural activities and put it to the House at the next Budget session, then if financial support is really necessary, we will all give our very active support.

Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, turning to one or two of the specific points that the Minister has made, on the question of wayangs. I am not quite sure what exactly he is trying to imply. I do not know whether wayangs are directly or indirectly banned. But the fact remains that they are disappearing.

The Minister said that as part of the encouragement of cultural activities, we are building on what we already have. As regards dances organised by the People's Association which has organised a lot of dances, it seems to me that many of such dances have, in fact, no relevance to our cultural heritage. Take the Chinese folk dances, for instance. I think the majority of the Chinese in Singapore are from the southern part of China. But you will see that a lot of the dances organised by the People's Association feature Mongolian dances. What sort of relevance is this? I do not know. I am not a man of culture, but if you talk about building on something that we have, this is not so.

Another point on which I am very pleased to hear is that the National Gallery is finally going to be ready. I would like the Minister to please ensure that whatever exhibits that we are going to have there will be properly safeguarded because the Auditor-General has just drawn attention to the fact that 1 5 paintings - I believe it is 15 - in the collection of the National Museum donated by members of the public over the years have disappeared.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, I do not know how concrete the plans for cultural activities would be. As we go on, I think I can assure Hon. Members that with good support we would be able to get things going in this respect.

As regards operas and wayangs. I regret that they are really disappearing on the streets, First, it is because of the lack of sites. Secondly. I think it is also because of the lack of talent and lack of supporters. We can see that many people of the younger generation do not have as much interest in these wayangs as the older folks. This lack of support is evident. Thirdly, very few people would like to go into the wayang business nowadays because learning to be a wayang actor or actress involves very hard work indeed. One has to be trained as an apprentice from a very early age. And in these days of full employment, it is difficult for wayang operators to get recruits for their operas and I think this also contributes to the decline of Chinese wayangs.

As to the lack of sites, of course, this can be remedied by offering them proper wayang stages such as the one in the People's Theatre in Kreta Ayer. But the fact still remains that less and less people want to watch wayangs and still less want to send their children to learn this art,

As regards dances by the People's Association, of course, they are trying to portray Chinese culture. There is a lack of a good choreographer in the People's Association and, in most cases, these dances are picked up from other places. So sometimes we cannot avoid the fact that they have put in the wrong dances But whether or not the People's Association should confine this item only to the southern Chinese dances, I have my doubts because, at the present moment, no one really knows what are the southern or northern Chinese dances, and what is a Mongolian dance. The steps and the movements are more or less the same; whether it is a southern or northern Chinese dance, the difference lies only in their costumes. If they wear a Mongolian dress, then it looks like a Mongolian dance. If they wear a Manchurian dress, then you can call it a Manchurian dance. The fact is that they are all Chinese dances.

Dr Chiang Hai Ding: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has been specific and concrete about wayangs. Mongolian dances and whatnots, He has asked us for support. I am sure that this House is willing and is waiting to give him the support if he will be able to give us concrete and precise plans and policies.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, if I may just be allowed to say a few words before I withdraw the amendment. I think it is very clear, Mr Speaker, Sir, that the Minister is himself very conscious of the fact that his Ministry, from the economic sense, is not considered worthy of receiving more grants from the Ministry of Finance. It is our job here to get greater support for the work that he is doing, and I think the consensus is quite clear that we want him to get this support.

Sir, if I may be allowed just to go on and pick up one or two points that the Minister has made in order to help towards giving the Ministry of Finance an idea that we could get more money for cultural support. The Minister has said that cultural activity will have its place in society and the time is when society has overcome certain financial and economic problems. I am sure the Minister must be aware of the theory of a well-known psychologist, Abraham Maslow, who says that people do not want to go above a certain level of needs unless a previous level of needs has been satisfactorily attained. In our society, I think we have come to a certain reasonable satisfaction generally of our needs so that I think it is time that we attended to cultural matters. I think this is the point .-- that it does not require very much quantification or statistics, which is a viewpoint that many people can reasonably accept. And it is because of this viewpoint that many Members here reflected the view that we should get more money for the Minister to promote cultural activities.

The principal point the Minister has brought up about which I cannot fully agree with him but which he may differ with me over this view, of course, is about the question of the abstractness of the notion of culture. Of course, if we want to appreciate a painting, then we get into several difficulties on the aesthetic side. Take a modern painting, for example. Personally, I must confess my complete ignorance about what are its aesthetic features. It looks to me as though we can get a donkey and have a brush for his tail and he can go round swinging his tail - put it on to a piece of canvas and we can get a fine piece of modern art, probably. I do not know. But on this point, certainly we cannot say what culture really means.

But I would like to take the Minister's resemblance of culture to air, He says "Culture cannot be quantified. It is just like air and water around us." But our scientists will tell him that he can quantify air to some extent. We can have so many cubic centimetres of air. I am not sure but I think air is H 20, or something like that.

Some Hon. Members: No. [Laughter]

Mr Conceicao: I am sorry. That is water. There you are! I am afraid if that reflects my knowledge of culture, then I stand very very disgraced indeed. But we can quantify culture. The quantification is in the same direction that the economists quantify economic development - how many television sets you have, how many cars you have, how many jobs have been created, how many houses, what standard of living. I think we can quantify culture in that respect --how many agencies are there for the promotion of culture, how many people go and attend concerts, what is the spread of the effect of the work that the Ministry has done, how many people watch such and such television programmes. So I think we can quantify. The Ministry of Finance officials. the Budget people, they can be asked. They are the experts to analyse it, the systems or that kind of thing. So he can ask them to help in the quantification. As the Hon. Member for Ulu Pandan has said, if on a cooperative basis, the Minister can seek some form of tangible policy to say that we can go one step further, then this time next year I think we can make the quantification. If the Minister can come up with a programme then I am sure, as everybody has said, we can give him support for a greater allocation of funds for cultural promotion.

Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

4.00 p.m.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, I did not say that I do not want money for Culture. I just said that cultural affairs in any country always come, if not last, fairly close to the last in the allocation of funds because of the other priorities. In a country like ours, just emerging from independence. the priority becomes even lower than the others. But this is not to say that we should not do anything about culture. For the amount that we have been allocated in the past and for the kind of activities that we have carried on so far. I would say that we have done quite a lot.

However, I am sure there is room for improvement. In this respect, the need is to get people more conscious of this cultural aspect, When I compared culture to air, I was just not really trying to quantify the air that we breathe and so on. I think the Member for Katong has taken me too seriously. But to try and make a study of whether or not we have culture by listing the number of air-conditioners and television sets that we have, the number of people that attend concerts and so on would make a mess of it. It would even make it meaningless. I do not think that is what we want to do. We can always call in the academicians and the analysts to find out whether or not Singapore has a culture and at what stage of development has it reached. But that is not the purpose. It does not help us at all. As I have said, culture is something that we should not try to equate it with the amount of money we have spent on it. It does not mean that if we have mere funds, we get better culture and more cultural activities and if we get less, then the activities will come to nil. Money finances only a part of the cultural activities of a society. The rest of it is undertaken by the people.

Mr Conceicao: After listening to the Minister. I would like to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Yeo Choo Kok -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1105.

The Chairman: Mr Yeo is not here. Amendment No. (3), Mr Conceicao.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 1107*. (* The same amendment also stood in hte names of Messrs. Hwang Soo Jin, P. Govindaswamy, Ch'ng Jit Koon)

I would like to speak here. Sir, just hopefully to help the Minister get further support for the work that he is doing in respect of the Department of Broadcasting.

In line with the necessity to stimulate greater interest in cultural matters, it is obviously necessary to give greater strength to Broadcasting. Therefore, we need to give every encouragement and incentive to the staff to express commitment and dedication to the realisation of whatever cultural policy is decided.

Presently certain categories of staff who are critical to good production effort seem to be excluded from present incentive schemes. This is a condition that prevails also in other departments besides the Department of Broadcasting, but I am interested in Broadcasting in this case. We have heard of schemes like merit increment schemes established in favour of people with professional qualifications like accountants, architects, engineers, and so on. In `The some amendment also stood in the names of Messrs. Hwang Soo Jin, P. Govindaswamy, cling Jit Koon and Dr Ong Leong Boon. Broadcasting, the engineers would benefit from such schemes. However, categories of staff like producers, controllers, executive producers and people in the same salary code, as those with professional qualifications, although they might merit recognition through increment, will not qualify. At the same time also, people with professional qualifications can be promoted beyond establishment strength but not so in the case of producers and controllers. Furthermore, in the present search for talent that is going on among administrative officers, here again those in Broadcasting in the producer/controller category are left out because they do not happen to be classified as administrative officers.

In view of such circumstances steps should be taken to provide adequate incentives for people who. because of the intrinsic interest the job holds for them offer good service but feel at the same time left out of recognition.

The Chairman: Mr Hwang is not here. Mr P. Govindaswamy.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Broadcasting Department seems to show some sort of discrimination against artistes who appear in programmes on TV and radio. The artistes in the different language programmes are paid different rates for the same performance and time. However, I would like to point out anomalies and differences between the Tamil Section and the Malay/Chinese Sections, as follows: TV Radio Tamil Programme Singer $33 $16 Instrument Player $44 $20

The rates for artistes and dramas are as follows: Malay & Tamil Chinese Section Sections Main character $82 $100 Sub-character $50 $ 88 Dummy character $20 $ 44 Artiste $33 $ 45 Radio singer $16 $ 20 Instrument/singer $44 $ 58

I see no reason whatsoever for artistes performing for Tamil programmes either for the TV or Radio should be paid lower than those artistes in the other language programmes. Popularity of programmes is no yardstick of the rate of payment. I feel that performance should be the yardstick.

To earn this meagre sum the artistes have to go through six or seven rehearsals and often they have to spend a considerable amount of time at the studios for rehearsals or waiting for their rehearsals. This seems to be rather unfair to the artistes. I suggest that a revision be made of the rate of payment for these Tamil artistes to be paid at the same rate as the artistes in the other language groups. Script writers in the RTS are also paid a different rate. Experienced writers are paid higher than the inexperienced ones. This i~, of course, fair. I feel the same method of payment should also apply to artistes too. It is rather unfair to pay an experienced and good actor the same rate as a new hand at the studio.

Next, I want to point out the unequal treatment given to the 1'V crew of the Tamil Section for outdoor shooting. In most cases the Section is not given a chance to shoot outdoors because the technicians and staff of RTS are mostly engaged in the other language groups. I hope the Minister will see that fair treatment is given to the Tamil Section.

Sir, quite often there are complaints that the same artistes appear over and over again in the RTS programmes. It seems that shooting of Tamil programmes are done in most instances during the weekdays. Therefore, new part-time artistes are unable to come forward during weekdays because of full-time employment. Weekends are normally reserved for Malay and Chinese programmes. Furthermore, if the excuse is that producers are not available on weekends for the Tamil Section, then I suggest that RTS employ part-time producers. This is done successfully for the Malay programmes. So the same could be done for the Tamil programmes too, RTS, if necessary, could appeal for recruitment of part-time producers.

Sir, the children's programme also needs improvement. Week after week the same setup is seen. It is very artificial. What you will notice is a person narrating a story, and that's just about it. It seems that this Section lacks imagination. Perhaps if they could watch some of the programmes like "Sesame Street" on Sundays, they may be able to get ideas for our children's programmes.

Finally, the Tamil and Chinese films shown on TV during the weekdays, no doubt are commendable. But I am afraid the choice is rather poor. The films are so old, and it is a well known fact that some of the actors and actresses are no longer living. I also note that some of these old Teochew films are constantly repeated. It is time TV Singapore acquired more recent films both for the Tamil and Chinese sections and, if possible, to screen colour films too.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng is not here. Dr Ong.

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Sir, I take this opportunity to bring up two points on which the Minister might like to enlighten this House,

The first point is to lend my support to those Members present here who have voiced dissatisfaction with the standard of production and the lack of sophistication in the direction of programmes that are produced locally. I recognise that our Broadcasting Department is in many ways in the stage of infancy and perhaps, because of a shortage of personnel, we will not be able just now to produce programmes of a reasonable standard. I am not trying to compare the programmes that we have produced locally to those of the NBC or the BBC. But a better standard of production would be consistent with the stage of development, the level of education, the general sophistication of this country and its people. I am frequently appalled by the programmes, and I would like the Minister to enlighten this House on the steps that the Broadcasting Department is taking or shall be taking in this direction.

The second matter which has been disturbing me is the fact that not so long ago an afternoon newspaper came out with a headline report which we all discovered later to be rather mischievous - I refer to a report which stated that Radio and TV licences were to be increased by two to four-fold. I recognise that this need not necessarily be within the portfolio of the Ministry of Culture. But one cannot deny that the Broadcasting Department is under the Ministry of Culture.

4.15 p.m.

As it turns out today, more than a month later, there has been no increase in TV or Radio licence fees and no quadrupling of the licence fee for colour television, am not saying that we should increase the fee for colour and black and white television or radio. I think we should maintain the status quo.

However, I would say that the timing of that release in the press was very unfortunate in that it was closely linked with other tax increases in this country. That gave rise to a lot of unhappiness, a lot of talk and a lot of unnecessary problems to various people.

I have yet to read a statement from the Ministry of Culture or the Ministry of Finance saying that that report was unfounded and mischievous. I am beginning to wonder whether in fact, the Ministry of Culture was quietly delighted that that report came out and therefore the public is "conditioned." so to speak, to further increases in licence fees. I suggest that if that report was misleading, as it must be so many weeks after, then it is the responsibility of the Ministry of Culture to come out with a statement refuting the allegations and thereby clearing the air.

Mr Chin Harn Tong (Aljunied): Sir, I rise to speak on the sub-standard performance of the RTS in relation to its News programmes. It is a matter which is entirely within the control of the RTS and which can be put right without any expenditure.

I refer to the slipshod manner in which TV News and Newsreel are broadcast. Wrong pictures are flashed on the screen while some other news captions or reports are being read out. A good example would be the TV coverage of the present Parliamentary session. The coverage may be creating an impression that some of the Members of this House have exchanged names with one another!

My concern is that if the RTS personnel are not sufficiently conversant with local events and personalities to match pictures and captions of local events, how can they be relied upon to do wider coverage of foreign news with which they can be presumed to be less familiar? Misleading information is worse than no-information.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, I must thank the Member for Aljunied for bringing to my attention the erroneous identification of MPs in TV coverage. I must apologise for this. I agree with him that this is a slipshod way of presenting the photographs of MPs. I myself was rather annoyed to see my colleagues appearing on the screen with different names. We will take action on this, and I will get the person responsible for it reprimanded.

Let me reply to the very important point regarding TV licence fees raised by the Member for Kim Seng. My Ministry has never put up any proposal for the revision or increase of TV or Radio licence fees. As Members are aware, the authority empowered to impose taxes and to revise or increase licence fees lies with the Ministry of Finance. As we all know, the Minister for Finance in his Budget speech has not mentioned anything about the increase of TV or Radio licence fees and I think we can take it as confirmed that there is no increase.

However, the Member for Kim Seng has gone further to ask me that we must make some clarification on this. It is the New Nation which has published this speculative report. I cannot be responsible for what the New Nation may or may not print. If we were to jump up on any speculative report that the newspapers may print and quickly issue a confirmation or denial on what they print, then life would be very difficult for us in Government. There are hundreds of reports and stories which the various newspapers may print daily, but that does not mean that we have an obligation to issue any denial or confirmation of those reports. This would really be a waste of time. If a report of a newspaper has not turned out to be the truth, it would be better to leave it to the readers to take whatever action they want to. They have themselves created this credibility gap and they will have to answer to the readers. We cannot be made responsible for that kind of speculative reports.

There is one point which we must make clear. For the sake of an efficient Government, we cannot run a Government by confirming or denying newspaper reports. Otherwise, we will have a Government by newspapers and not by a Government.

The Member for Katong has raised the point about an incentive scheme for the News Producers and Programme Producers in the Broadcasting Department. I am afraid we are not able to consider this at the present moment because the number of people involved is very small and they are in a specialised field. It is also very difficult to judge the performance of a particular person in the production of a programme because in the production of a programme a number of people are involved. We need a good coordination of supporting staff in order to produce a programme. There is someone in charge of the wardrobes; someone in charge of lighting; the engineers, the script writers and so on. How are we going to judge the performance of a particular person if we were to have this incentive scheme? However, I am not saying that we are not going to consider this idea. As the staff of the Broadcasting Department grows and as the method to measure the performance of the people concerned becomes possible, then that may be the time to consider such a scheme.

The Member for Kim Seng has complained of the low standard of production and the lack of sophistication in our programmes. Here I must agree that there is room for improvement. When he says that the standard of production is low and lacks sophistication, I presume that he is referring to the content of the programmes and not the technical side of the programmes. If the engineers and technicians are rated "low" in their standard of production, the Member for Kim Seng will not be able to watch any programme on the TV screen. He will get a blank screen. So I presume he is referring to the content of the programmes.

I think we must agree that the workforce in the production of programmes is comparatively new to the kind of media that they are handling and also, with the lack of good script writers and directors, it is sometimes rather difficult to achieve the degree of sophistication that we want.

Coupled with this is the lack of professional actors and actresses and good professional singers and so on. Therefore, it is rather difficult to produce a programme of a very high standard. Most of the actors and actresses that we engage are amateurs and so their performance, shown side by side with imported programmes, like those from the BBC or NBC, will show itself to be rather poor. I must say that making a comparison with imported programmes is not fair if one considers the amount of money that foreign TV stations spend on a particular programme and the amount that we spend on our own production of a programme. There is really no comparison at all. A fairer comparison would be our programmes with those programmes produced by our neighbouring stations. Then the standard of production of our programmes would become obvious.

The Member for Anson has raised this point about discrimination against Tamil actors and singers. I must very seriously point out that there is no discrimination at all in the fees paid to the performers, whether they are English-speaking, Tamil-speaking or Malay-speaking and whether they appear in a Malay, Chinese or Tamil programme. There is no discrimination at all. There is only one table of fees in the RTS and that table of fees applies to every one group. The difference of fees applies to the grades. I am sure the Member will agree that in the case of an actor there are the leading actor, supporting actor and the temporary actors who are just one of the crowd in the background - we cannot pay every one the same fee.

4.30 p.m.

Then there are singers with international reputation. There are also singers of a low grade. There are also amateur singers, and so on. If there is any difference of fees at all, it is based on the grade or according to the performance of the actors, and not based on the language that they speak or according to the programme in which they appear. That is complete nonsense. In fact, we are doing what the Member for Anson has suggested - that is to be fair. In the case of The script writers, the experienced script writers get higher fees than the inexperienced ones. The same principle apples to the actors, dancers, singers and others,

The Member has also complained of the many rehearsals needed for the singers. It is very `unusual for an artiste or a singer to be asked to rehearse six or seven times. If that is so, the artiste or the performer must be a very bad one and, therefore, requires extra rehearsals. That may be the reason why he or she is paid a very low fee. Normally a good performer, especially a professional one, needs only one or two rehearsals.

With regard to outdoor facilities, there is also no discrimination against the Tamil stream. We have a small crew of outdoor cameramen. With their limited facilities, they are mainly used for the production of newsreel and documentaries. As Members know, newsreels and documentaries are transmitted in the four language streams. There is no discrimination against the Tamil stream. There is actually no discrimination at all. The problem is the lack of facilities. Because of this, we have to concentrate on the production of more meaningful programmes, that is. newsreels and educational documentaries,

With regard to the children's programmes, I agree that there is room for improvement. Here again, it is very difficult to produce a children's programme as children are unpredictable in their temperament, and it is very difficult to coach them. If we compare our children's programme with Sesame Street. I do not think we can measure up to the quality of that programme because Sesame Street is produced by an organisation specialised in the production of children's educational programmes. Experts in many fields are involved in this quality production. I am not saying that we should not improve our standard of production. The Sesame Street production has got a lot of experts to support it, for example, educationists, child psychologists, writers, artists, composers, choreographers. dramatists; all kinds of talent are involved in the production of that programme. In our case all we have is the programme producer or, at the most, the script writer or the assistant script writer to do the work,

The Member has asked why we screen films that are very old. The RTS has to hire these feature films from the film producing companies. Now, we are actually competing with the cinemas or the film producing companies for our audience. It is, therefore, only natural that they only allow us to have films which they think have lost the box office appeal. Most of the films which we can hire from them are more than 10 years old. Of course, they have spent millions of dollars to produce the films, and if they think that certain films can still attract the audience, they would keep them for themselves to show them in the cinemas. They would not want to release them to a television station because once the television station has screened the film then everyone would have seen it and the box office appeal whatever little there is would be lost. It is only natural and business-like for these companies to try and prevent us from getting better films from them. The acquiring of films is a never-ending conflict between a TV station and the film-producing companies and also the cinemas. The film-producing companies and the cinemas are very closely connected with each other. Of `course, the cinemas themselves are very reluctant to see the TV station getting all the good films because it means that we are drawing the audience away from them.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Minister has said that there is no discrimination against the Tamil artistes, and that it is nonsense. I have mentioned about the discrimination in the rates of payment for the Malay artistes and the Tamil artistes. That also is nonsense! I have already given the figures. That also is nonsense! The pictures screened are very old. That also is nonsense! If the Broadcasting Department does not pay more for the films how can it get new films? It does not want to pay for them. It is willing to pay only $100 and yet it expects to get a new picture. How can they get it? Naturally the film companies will not give it to them. There must be a contract with the film companies to get the films. That also is nonsense. Everything is nonsense, and then what happen's? I do not know.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not saying that everything is nonsense. I was just explaining to the Member the facts of life and the reality of how we operate. As there was no discrimination, I said that it was really nonsense to suggest it, because it did not exist at all in our station. I did not say that what he has said about the Broadcasting Department screening old films is nonsense. It is true that we are screening very old films.

I have already explained why we are screening old films. It is not that we do not have the money for new films. We have, but they just could not be found. They are jealously guarded by the film companies which want to keep them for distribution to the cinemas where they can get better value. Only those films which have lost their box office appeal would be released for distribution to the TV stations. These are films which almost everyone has seen and if they were to be screened in the cinemas no one would want to see. This does not only happen in Singapore. It happens all over the world. Whether you go to the United States, Australia, Taiwan, or Japan, you will find that only the old feature films which are more than 10 years old are available in the market for screening on TV.

Of course, TV stations counter this practice by producing their own programmes in their own studios. The present trend is for many TV stations not to rely very much on feature films from the film companies. They produce their own films and programmes, and because of this they are less vulnerable to this kind of boycott by the film companies. But since we do not have a film industry in Singapore, we are really vulnerable to this boycott. For instance, where does the Teochew films come from? They come from Hong Kong. That is the only place which produces Teochew films and nowhere else. There is a limited number of these films in the market. That is why sometimes we have to use old films and sometimes we have to re-screen them. But in most cases we repeat the screening only once, whether it is a Teochew film or other films. We do not repeat them many times over, as the Member for Anson has said.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I just want an assurance from the Minister that there will be no discrimination of any kind among the Chinese, Malay and Tamil artistes. The Minister has said that there is no discrimination and that it is nonsense to suggest that. Will the Minister give an assurance that there will be no discrimination among Chinese, Malay and Tamil artistes? The Minister has already said that, but I want an assurance from him.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Speaker, Sir, first and foremost discrimination does not exist. There is no such thing as discrimination against Tamil artistes or writers. There is no discrimination. If the Member wants an assurance, I can give him my firm assurance that there is not going to be any discrimination at all.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, that is what I want.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I just want to raise a small point, I do not watch TV very often and I could be wrong. But the impression I get lately is that there has been an increase in the number of commercial advertisements. I can well understand that if we do not have so many advertisements, the Government would probably say that the licence fees should go up. However, we ought to maintain a certain balance between commercialisation and entertainment.

Another aspect of it is that from my point of view and that of many people, the advertisements seem to be repeating rather too frequently. It is repeated to such an extent that we can even hear some of the tunes being hummed not only by children but also by grown-ups. We get the impression that we are promoting a sort of "Jean and Coke" culture.

I would like the Minister to assure this House that commercial advertisements will be kept within a reasonable limit. Perhaps the same advertisements should not be repeated so frequently on the same day or even during the short space of half an hour.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, arising from the reply by the Minister. I must stress that at no time did I suggest that we should have the same standard of TV production as the BBC. If only he had listened to what I said, he would know that I did not at any time suggest that. All that I said was that we should try to improve the standard of production and direction of our Broadcasting Department. I asked him if he could inform this House what steps are being taken to make sure that the Broadcasting Department keeps on improving its standard of television production.

4.45 p.m.

With regard to his reply on the second matter, I must say that it is wonderful to hear from a Member of the Cabinet that the Government does not jump on any speculative report. However, it is my impression, and I am convinced of this, that this Government is very sensitive to any public comment, It is very sensitive to any criticism in the press. We have examples of this. When somebody writes a letter to a certain press, within a week there is a reply. I am saying that the report which came out in that particular newspaper was not just a report tucked away somewhere in the middle pages, it was headline news. Because of that, I felt that it was appropriate for Government to reply on that score. Perhaps we lack a PRO, as my colleague mentioned here.

Haji Rahmat Bin Kenap (Geylang Serai): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, can the Minister take steps to correct the costumes of the Malay TV artistes? Most of the lady artistes are scantily dressed? Some of them are almost half-naked, looking as if they are feeling uncomfortably hot, although the studio is cool as it is airconditioned. The way they are dressed seems to suggest that they are feeling very hot. The impression is that if they are dressed from the waist down, then the upper half is bare. If the upper half is dressed then the lower half is very scantily covered. If we allow this sort of thing to go on, it means that in future we could be seeing obscene programmes. All this would lower the quality and standard of the Malay TV shows. I hope the Minister will take note of this matter.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, the Member for Jalan Kayu has raised the point that there are too many advertisements on TV. Advertisements are revenue earners, and the demand for specific screening times, of course, reflects the popularity of the programmes. The more popular a programme is, the greater the audience. Therefore, if more advertisements are received for screening during a particular programme. it shows that more people like to see that programme. The advertisers naturally want to take advantage of the wide audience and they want to spend their advertising costs in as efficient and effective a manner as possible, and that is to catch the greatest number of audience. In this case, if they were to spend money on TV advertisement, well, I do not think we should refuse them and say that we do not want their advertising money, so long as their advertising filmlets are decent and meet with approved standards.

What really happens is that an advertiser thinks that the more his advertisement is repeated, the better it would be for the message to be conveyed to the consumer. So they normally pay quite a lot to get the message across. TV is only a medium offered for use by the advertisers. We do not want to repeat the advertisements or have too many of them, but if they keep on coming, well, it is also difficult to resist them.

We also have different rates for advertising. We have advertisements at the normal rate which appear on a rotational basis. This means that the advertiser does not mind whether his advertisement is flashed in the programme Hawaii Five-0 or in a midnight show. For such kind of advertising, the normal rate is applied. But where the advertiser is very particular about this and wants to catch the greatest number of audience during a particular programme, then he wants his commercials to appear in that particular programme. If he wants that, then he has to pay a very much higher rate. Sometimes it is as much as 2� times the normal rate. So if the advertiser is prepared to pay that exorbitant rate, I think there is no good reason to stop him, All we have to ensure is that the advertisement, the phrases, the music in the filmlets conform to the approved standard.

The Member for Geylang Serai complained about the costumes of the Malay dancers, We have very strict rules on costumes. But we are not strict to the extent of measuring the length of the skirt or assess the suitability of the dress that the artistes wear. We do have some sort of a strict code to ensure that the costumes for dancers or singers are very decent.

The Member for Kim Seng came back on the increase in licence fees. Any Government should be politically sensitive. It must be quick in reacting to any situation. But I am not saying that we must reply to all the irresponsible speculations. If there are complaints in the newspapers and if the officials find that they are genuine and legitimate complaints, then they will reply promptly. That does not mean that irresponsible speculations in the newspapers have to be replied, promptly or otherwise.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, the Hon. Minister mentioned about approved standards. As far as I can see, there is no approved standard at all, The Hon. Minister for Finance, when he commented on the need to raise the tax on tobacco, said something to the effect that our young people is being enticed into smoking. Up to today the TV is still enticing. Although advertisements on cigarettes are not allowed on radio and TV, advertisements on cigarette lighters are allowed, So what sort of an approved standard is it? Should we not consider the side effect of advertisements on our younger generation? If we are running it purely on commercial lines. I say, yes, we are doing very well. If more people want to advertise, well and good, the Government makes move money. But I think we ought to consider what sort of effect these advertisements will have on our younger generation. If the Minister goes round, he can hear kids humming the tune of "Levi's second generation" or "Coca Cola". This is the sort of culture that we are promoting.

Haji Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, as regards Malay artistes and those from the Muslim community, their costumes should not be compared with those artistes who are non-Muslims. So I would like to suggest to the Minister concerned that the costumes used by the Malay artistes should be decided by the Malay TV officials themselves. This would obviate any misunderstanding among the Muslim community. I hope the Minister will take note of this,

Mr Yeo Toon Chia: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to bring up the matter of commercial advertisements under my amendment but it has already been brought up by other Members. Sir, on advertisements. I entirely agree with the Member for Jalan Kayu. Just now the Minister said that if a company is prepared to pay a high advertising rate, it will increase our revenue and that it is very difficult to refuse the advertisement. This is not correct. If a very big company is willing to pay a very high price for the whole lot of advertising time for its commercial advertisements, like what the Member for Jalan Kayu has said, the Jean and Coke culture, where you see the youngsters swaying their hips along the road, this is no good. This will affect our second generation. This will lead to a lot of trouble.

Sir, there are other certain commercial advertisements like Mortem insecticide, The advertisement says it does not harm human beings. But we know that insecticide contains DDT, and it is poisonous. This is no good. This is not a healthy commercial advertisement. The Programmes Section of TV Singapore must select and censor such advertisements. If we do not have such censorship or selection, then such advertisements will harm our people. Otherwise the advertisers will take Singaporeans to be idiots.

Sir, I would like to touch on national campaigns. We have a lot of slogans such as those on National Day which stimulate our people to respond to our national call for economic development and social progress. Such slogans should be included in our TV programmes as often as possible. In addition, there are organisations that work in the society for meaningful purposes. For example, the MCs and CCCs offer scholarships, bursaries and so on and also there are other commercial and professional organisations which also have got scholarships, bursaries to develop academic pursuits and talent for our country. TV Singapore should capture and publicise all these awards including the award ceremony so that the people are made aware of such events as they are good for our society.

There are also a lot of heroic acts. For example, someone has saved a life; this taxi-driver has found a lot of money from his taxi and has returned all of it to the owner. We should publicise and encourage such acts of heroism and honesty in our TV programmes so that the younger generation and all other members of our society will be inculcated with the right attitude and sense of social responsibility. This is good for the society and is important.

5.00 p.m.

We are in the process of nation building. We should instil in our people a liking for work and service. I think our TV programme should also in this respect stimulate our younger generation into developing this trait for work and service, perhaps by devising some slogans in this direction. Though we cannot get money by refusing commercial advertisements, we can make up by better usage of the time to stimulate the correct value and attitude among our younger generation. This will be relevant and conducive to the well being and productivity of our country. This will also be of great help in our future development.

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): (In Mandarin): Sir, after hearing all this. I feel a bit excited and would like to say a few words. Money is important in this society. Without money a lot of things cannot be done. There is a saying that even if you want to spend money, there has to be a purpose. If there is too much money, it is not so good either.

Touching on TV advertisements, can it not be arranged that commercial advertisements come either before or after the programme, and not interrupting the programme every few minutes? Perhaps this would not give rise to so many complaints from the viewers.

Mr Lee Yiok Seng (Bukit Panjang): (In Mandarin): Sir, I support what the previous speakers have said. In regard to commercial advertisements, of course, we have to be business-minded. The Minister has said. "the more the better". If there are too many commercial advertisements, then the whole night through there will be advertisements in our programmes, and there will be an unfavourable reaction, resulting in fewer viewers and we will not have enough audience to attract advertisements and there will not be enough commercial advertisements. As a result, in time to come, we will not make a profit. This goes round in a circle and is a very interesting topic. We must consider this problem carefully. Just now the Member for Jalan Kayu has brought up the matter and I have not heard a very clear reply to that.

We must have a certain proportion of commercial advertisements in our programmes. Nevertheless, there must be a yardstick. For example, in one hour of programme, how many commercial advertisements should we allow, We should also be fair to the advertisers, If we just take their money and not consider their interest, it would appear that this is not very honest. So I hope the Minister has a very balanced judgment with regard to commercial advertisements. He should pay regard to the requirement of the viewers as well as the advertisers, We should have a good balance in this regard.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, as much as we want to have more revenue, we do also see to it that our programme is of a good quality and that the advertisement commercials appearing on TV screens are of a decent nature. We have no control on the products that they want to sell except those which are prohibited by law, for instance, cigarettes, tobacco and so on. They are not allowed to be advertised on TV or over the radio or in any newspaper. So long as they have a product to sell and the commercial is presented in a decent manner, conforming to the approved standard, we will allow them to advertise.

We have a code in RTS for the type of song and the length of hair and so on, all described in great detail. There are certain things that we accept and certain things that we do not. We do not control the kind of product that they want to sell. So long as the commercial is of a decent nature, there is no reason why we should not accept it, As the Member for Kampong Kapor has pointed out, sometimes the commercials are of a very childish nature; Mortem, for instance, They take the people of Singapore to be idiots. But if the products that they are selling are not prohibited, there is no reason why we have to turn them down.

In any one-hour programme there is a maximum of three breaks. In each there can be as many as five or six commercials. In any case, the length of commercials is such that it should not tip the balance of good programmes in favour of these commercials. We try to maintain a very strict balance on this. I do not think that we have too many commercials in our programmes. Maybe the Member is referring to those very popular programmes and since, as I have said, many advertisers want to pay a lot more to take full advantage of the popularity of the programmes, it appears that there are a lot of commercials in those programmes. If one were to switch over to the other programmes, like documentaries or programmes of an educational value, then one can hardly see any commercials at all. There are certain programmes which specifically exclude commercials, say, a programme of educational or cultural value. There are no commercials at all appearing in these programmes.

As for the suggestion by the Member for Bras Basah that we should have the commercials either before or after the programme, it is rather difficult to implement this because the advertisers are not stupid, If they have to spend their money, they want to spend it wisely. They all know that if we are to put all the commercials as suggested by the Member, then the audience would not switch on and view the advertisements before the programme and wait to see more commercials before switching it off. So it would come to nothing. The advertisers want to catch the attention of the audience and there is no better way of doing this than to flash their commercials during a programme.

I thank the Member for Kampong Kapor for putting various suggestions as to how the TV programmes can be better utilised by including reports of the various activities in the constituencies. I think the constituencies are given quite a lot of coverage in this respect, like the functions organised by the Citizens' Consultative Committees or the Management Committees of community centres. They are given prominence in the newsreels. Although we may not want to make these as feature films, now and then he can see in Newsreel people being awarded for scholarships from the CCC members or even from Members of Parliament. These activities do get some coverage on TV in Newsreel.

As to the slogans on National Day that we should emphasise on TV. I say that we want to convey this message across to the public but we will have to do it in a more subtle way than just blaring it through the radio and TV. On the occasion of the National Day celebrations we have these slogans painted on banners and hung across the street. But if we want to convey the message daily, there are more subtle ways than just flashing the slogans on the TV screen.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,

The Chairman: I think it is a good time to take the Suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and shall take the Chair again at 5.40 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.14 p.m. until 5.40 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.40 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head Q (cont.) --

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Yeo Toon Chia -

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CBA 1111.

The Chairman: Mr Yeo, Amendment (4).

Mr Yeo Toon Chia: I am not speaking. Sir.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead CDA 1109.

Sir, some of the newsreaders over TV and radio, particularly in the Tamil and English sections -

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy, are you going to repeat what you have said earlier this afternoon?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: No, Sir. This is a different point. Sir, some of the newsreaders over TV and radio, particularly in the Tamil and English sections, make far too many mistakes. Some of the readers, particularly the new recruits, seem to make terrible mistakes. I wonder what is the basis of selection of newsreaders. How are these people selected? How are they trained, and for how long are they trained before they are put on the job before the camera or the microphone? Could the Minister elaborate? Last night when the speech of the Member for Henderson was broadcast over TV the photograph of the Member for Sembawang was flashed over the TV screen.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, I could not agree with the Member for Anson more that the standard of our newsreaders is far from perfect. In fact, this has been a serious problem and is rated very high among our priorities for improvement of the standard of the broadcasting. The problem is that it is not easy to get the right kind of people for training as newsreaders. A good newsreader is not someone whom you can pick up from any one of the school leavers and train him for it.

To be a good newsreader, first, he must have a very good voice. Second, having that voice, he must be able to go through a course of' education and acquire a good pronunciation and good diction either in English. Tamil, Malay or Mandarin. After this, he must also be prepared to be trained as a newsreader. Even with all these aptitude tests, it is sometimes difficult to get the right person for the job. I will give an example of how difficult it is for us to get good news readers.

5.45 p.m.

For instance, in the last recruitment exercise held in March last year for Tamil newsreaders. 206 applied for audition and, of that number, 179 turned up for the audition, and only one passed. After further training he was put on the air. Because of this poor result and because of the need, for newsreaders, 13 who had shown some promise in the audition were selected to undergo training. After three months of coaching, nine failed to make any satisfactory progress and had to be rejected. Out of the remaining four, three have improved considerably and have since been placed on the newsreading roster. The other one is still under training and may eventually make the grade.

In the case of English newsreaders, an exercise was conducted in April last year for part-time newsreaders. 914 applied for auditioning but only 714 turned up, and only eight were found acceptable for training. Of these eight, only two so far have been found satisfactory and they are now rostered for newsreading. Of the remaining six, one has already been found not suited for newsreading and the other has informed RTS that he is not interested in the job any more. So that leaves us with only four persons.

It is not that we are not conscious of this need for a good standard of newsreading, and we are continually endeavouring to search for the right people with the right voice and with good pronunciation for the job of newsreaders, but such people are not available. Why are they not available? I do not know. Maybe it is because English is not the mother tongue of the majority of our people. We also find that even those who come from the English stream are unable to pronounce correctly. It is possible that when they were in school they might have acquired a poor pronunciation, and have not attempted to correct their speech and so on. This makes it difficult for us to select good newsreaders. But in any case we are still trying and are sparing no efforts to get the right people for proper training to become newsreaders.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the explanation given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdrawn my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -- Mr J. F. Conceicao: (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead FAA 1111. Mr Ho Kah Leong: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 2030. Mr L P Rodrigo: Mr Yen Choo Kok: (8)That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of item (b) of subhead AAA 3020.

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao is not here. Amendment (7), Mr Ho.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): I am not moving. Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment (8). Mr Rodrigo is not here. Mr Yeo Choo Kok.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok (Delta): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 with respect of item (b) of subhead AAA 3020.

After listening to the reply given by the Minister to the queries raised by previous speakers, I think I am beginning to understand why the People's Association is so profit-conscious. The People's Association, if I am not mistaken, should be people-orientated, that is, catered to the needs of the people at the ground level. I am not sure that this Association, as it is now, is an association of the people. by the people, but it is definitely not for the people.

Sir, I will quote one incident to show why I am so disappointed with the present development of the People's Association. On one occasion, a community leader telephoned an official of the People's Association to confirm an earlier arrangement for a cultural show in connection with a public function to be attended by an MP. The reply from the Association was, "You pay the $300 first, otherwise there will not be any show in the evening." Sir, this kind of attitude prevails not only among the officials in the People's Association but also generally among the staff of the civil service.

Sir, if we let this trend of behaviour to go unchecked, I am afraid the People's Association will end up as an association without people or, better, to rename it, the Bureaucrats Association.

Sir, for the Citizens' Consultative Committees, we have this zoning called the District Secretariat to facilitate the meeting of the Chairmen of various CCCs of the neighbouring constituencies so as to get them to know one another, For the Youth group, the People's Association also has the same sort of zoning for grouping leaders of the Youth group from the neighbouring constituencies, But those in between, namely, the members of the Management Committees, do not have this kind of zoning or grouping.

Sir, I want to ask the Minister whether he has any plans for this sort of zoning or grouping so that the Chairmen of the Management Committees of neighbouring constituencies can get together once a month or once in a fortnight at the meeting table so as to know one another better.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Speaker Sir, in order to encourage cultural activities the People's Association has formed a cultural troupe to give cultural performances in the various community centres and the constituencies, In order to recover costs for transport and other very small expenses the People's Association charges a token fee of $300 for each performance. Each cultural troupe consists of at least 60 to 80 people and they perform for a duration of two hours. I would say this is a reasonable rate because $300 is not enough to pay for these part-time performers.

This rate of $300 was laid down in 1971 and since then it has never been revised in spite of inflation, NWC increments and so on. So the $300 charge for each performance is only a token fee, If they were required to pay the full fee. I think it should be much more than that. It is a very far cry to say that because the People's Association has levied $300 per performance, it has lost the support of the people and that it is not an association for the people. This money is just a token fee to ensure that the organisers are really interested in organising these cultural shows and that they do put in an effort to get the people to come and watch these shows.

It could be that the attitude of the Association's officials in demanding the money is not so diplomatic. But the fact still remains that for every cultural show a fee has got to be paid. Otherwise when the show is over and when the people have all left, the People's Association will be left with nothing to recover expenses.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, I do not think the Minister has understood me correctly. I did not ask for free cultural shows. I am querying the attitude of "pay first, show later", I am querying this sort of mentality of the officials of the People's Association.

I do not think the Minister has answered another point. I was asking whether he has got plans for zoning or grouping the Chairmen of the various Management Committees together at a monthly meeting. He did not answer that point.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not know about this incident of "pay first, show later". But the fact remains that there is this charge of $300. Maybe the attitude of the officials is not correct but the fact remains that someone has got to pay the fee,

On the regional grouping of the Management Committees, I do not know whether or not it is desirable. This has got to be studied carefully. It may be that certain Management Committees like to be grouped together and form a regional council, but I do not think the Management Committees can be compared with the Youth groups. The Youth groups are grouped into several regions and they form a regional council because they have more or less similar types of activities. For the sake of efficiency and also for the sake of promoting the activities, it is found necessary to have the Youth groups grouped into several regions. But I do not know whether this could be applied to the Management Committees. We will certainly give this a thought and study it carefully. If it is found desirable and good for the efficient working of the system, then I am sure we will introduce it.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Although I am not particularly impressed by his answer, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 3020*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs P. Govindaswamy and Ch'ng Jit Koon.)

Sir, in moving this amendment I merely want to seek information as to what are the cultural organisations that are on the Contribution roll under this vote.

6.00 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, one of the main functions of the People's Association is to encourage our youths to participate in meaningful activities. I understand that the People's Association has now about 16,000 members enrolled in its Youth section. Recently, at a military tattoo display, the Youth section was asked to perform one item involving 128 persons, As the officials could not get the required number of persons from amongst their 1 6,000 Youth membership, they had to force their Centre staff and kindergarten teachers to participate in the military display.

Sir, I want to know how much does the People's Association spend each year on the Youth groups. What percentage of the 1 6,000 Youth members are really active?

Sir, I also understand that the People's Association employs about 20 full-time dancers and about 100 part-time dancers for their cultural troupe. What is the purpose of employing such a large troupe of dancers at the Association's headquarters? Would it not be more beneficial if these paid dancers were sent to the various community centres to recruit more people to participate in cultural dances and to conduct classes at the different centres? I feel it should not be the policy of the Association to maintain a semiprofessional dance troupe. This should be left to the different cultural organisations. On the other hand, the People's Association dance troupe should be used to popularise our culture at the different community centres.

If the present situation is continued, then I feel that the community centre will not be able to organise any cultural activities, as the incentives given to the semi-professionals at the Association headquarters are much greater than what the community centres can provide,

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, in reply to the Member for Jurong's question on the contribution to cultural organisations. I would briefly say that, firstly, the Ee Lian Dramatic Society was given a grant of $1,500 to help it to stage a play at the Victoria Theatre. Secondly, the National Book Development Council was given a grant of $1,000 to enable it to update the survey conducted in 1969 on book development activities in Singapore. Thirdly, a grant of $700 was given to the newly formed Society of Singapore Writers to assist it in its production of a multi-lingual newsletter for its members, This is a very small contribution. Whatever grant the Ministry gives is only a token gesture. It is hoped that these grants will encourage the members of the various societies to pursue their aims and objectives, for cultural activities.

The Member for Anson has raised a question on the People's Association Youth group. In March last year, the People's Association was asked to send a team to participate in the 1975 military tattoo display to be staged at the National Stadium for the National Day celebrations. This exercise requires perfectly synchronised movements and at least about 30 training sessions were necessary to achieve a good display. Most of the youths taking part in this display were employed and they had their own activities also, It was, therefore, difficult to find a group of 128 persons from the Youth group willing to attend regularly the 30 training sessions. As a result, it was found that for the sake of putting up a good performance it was necessary for the Centre staff and some kindergarten teachers to participate in the military tattoo, as they were able to attend rehearsals regularly.

Regarding the amount of money spent on the Youth group for the last and current financial years, the People's Association was given a provision of $40,000 as subsidy for more than 80 Youth groups which have a total membership of 20,000. At present there are a total of 1,206 members in the People's Association Youth Movement serving as office bearers in the 82 Youth Executive Committees. The range of activities varies with the different Youth groups. Some activities draw more participants than the others.

As I have explained to Members just now, the People's Association maintains a cultural troupe. It does not have a large number of full-time dancers, as the Member for Anson has suggested. It has only 14 full-time dancers and 40 part-time dancers. The amount of money spent on them is, in fact, very small, especially on the part-time dancers. They get a nominal allowance of $3 per session. The purpose of keeping this group of dancers in the People's Association is to meet the demand for cultural performances from the various community centres in the constituencies. It also wants to keep this cultural troupe as a nucleus of dancers in order to maintain a high standard. At the same time these dancers can be sent to the community centres to teach the people the art of dancing and other cultural activities. In fact, this small group of fill-time dancers are given training in the People's Association headquarters by professional choreographers and other instructors to upgrade the standard of their performances. Not only do they participate in the cultural shows, they also give instruction at the community centres. After learning the art of dancing from the professional choreographers, they are sent to the community centres to teach the younger people there the art of dancing. There is, therefore, a dual purpose in maintaining this cultural troupe. First, it is to upgrade the standard of the performances and meet the demand for cultural performances at the constituency level and, secondly, by becoming dance instructors they can pass on their knowledge and skill to the people in the community centres.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister whether the cultural troupe in the People's Association is put on circuit performances, Circuit performances have received good response from the public. The various items in these cultural shows are very interesting, which include performances by the Girl Piper Band, folk dancing, singing and the various dance items. These cultural performances have attracted more than 1,000 spectators in my constituency.

6.10 p.m.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Mr Teong Eng Siong: This proves that these cultural performances are appreciated by the people. If the cultural troupe can perform in the various constituencies, this may be one way to promote cultural activities at the grassroot level. I hope the People's Association will send bigger cultural troupes to perform in the various community centres in the constituencies.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, does the People's Association intend to replace the street wayang with this cultural troupe?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Sir, I think the Minister has not yet given the full list of the organisations which receive the cultural grants. I have added the total figure of the grants which he quoted just now but they do not equal the total figure as shown in the Estimates.

I would also like to ask the Minister what is the basis of giving a grant to a cultural organisation, and whether consideration will be given to other cultural organisations should they apply for these grants.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the grants given to cultural organisations do not necessarily add up, because it is not necessary for us to actually spend all the money. If there is no application for a subsidy, then the grant is not given.

In any case, any application for a grant is carefully considered and if there is a deserving case the grant is given. Of course, there are more societies applying for grants than we have the money to give, and we cannot satisfy all of them. Therefore, we can only grant a contribution rather sparingly. We have given quite a lot of money to the various organisations and normally we try to see that these monies are properly expended. If they are not spent, the surplus money will be put back into the Consolidated Fund.

6.15 p.m.

I thank the Member for Sembawang for his views on the cultural troupe. I agree that it is very popular but it is also costly to run the shows. We have tried to give these performances in the various constituencies, but I am afraid that this cannot be done because there are 65 constituencies and if we hold one performance a month for each constituency, then on the average it would take 65 months before we can give a repeat performance in each constituency. I must say that members of the cultural troupe have a very busy schedule on their hands. They are fully booked for the various occasions such as the Chingay procession, the National Day parades, and many others. I must say that their work and their services have been taxed to the full.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, the Minister has not answered my question yet.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, regarding the Member's question, there is no intention of staging wayangs by the People's Association because maintenance of this cultural troupe alone is more than it can afford. Moreover, the wayang is something which should be left to the wayang operators.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, could the Minister tell the House how does a cultural organisation qualify for a grant? Could he tell us the criteria? In what manner can an organisation apply for contributions?

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Just send a letter to the Ministry of Culture and we will consider the application.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the Minister's reply. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 with respect of subhead AAA 8301*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Yeo Toon Chia and Dr Chiang Hai Ding.)

Sir, not so long ago, community centres were built entirely by the People's Association for the benefit of residents living in the respective areas, I am not making a value judgment of the community centres. Although there have been some criticisms of the role community centres play in a given environment. I am convinced that given proper leadership, community centres can have a tremendous impact on our society. The need for community centres cannot be denied, In fact, community centres of today must be better equipped, well laid out and offering facilities for a variety of activities that would cater for the needs of the young as well as the old.

Although community centres used to be built by the Government in the past, in recent years the bulk of the funds for building these community centres have to be raised by the residents themselves. I do not quarrel with the concept of community participation and financial involvement in a project that would serve their own needs. But my complaint is: to what extent should this participation take place? I advocate that the People's Association and the community leaders of an area, where a community centre is to be built, must sit together and decide on the minimum facilities needed in a community centre for any given locality. Once this is decided, then the funds for the building of the centre should be provided by the People's Association. If the community leaders want to improve on the minimum provisions provided, if they want to improve facilities, if they want to make their centre more attractive, etc., then, they should raise the additional funds.

The present policy, it appears, is that even for a key community centre in a constituency, the bulk of the funds has to be raised by the constituents with a minimal grant from the People's Association.

In Telok Blangah there were six community centres.

An Hon. Member: More than enough!

Mr N. Govindasamy: You have not heard the story yet. Four centres have already been demolished and one more is also going in a month's time. The only remaining one is to be demolished in about two years' time. Now to build a key community centre in the constituency, not more than $1 51)000 is forthcoming. For a high density new town what kind of a community centre can a $1 50,000 grant provide that could cater for the needs of the young as well as the old?

Mr Yeo Toon Chia: (In Mandarin): Sir, let me avail myself of this opportunity to inform the Minister how the People's Association carries out its under-cover activities. In September or October last year, in order to meet the requirements of the Building Control Division, in respect of the construction of a rubbish collecting centre and so qualify for a certificate of fitness, the People's Association did not consult the Management Committee on the CC officials. They decided to build the rubbish collecting centre by the side of the cooking c ass at a cost of about $1,600. They notified the Management Committee about this.

After a meeting, the Management Committee felt that the rubbish centre should not be built beside the cooking classroom as the ground there is used for tea parties and other functions, and especially in the evenings when many people come to this place for recreation. So the Management Committee suggested that the rubbish ground should be built on a site adjacent to the sewing classroom on the night. The Association replied that if the rubbish collecting centre was sited elsewhere, it would require a new plan from the architects and this would delay the construction and would also mean an increase in costs, and the People's Association had no money. So unless the Management Committee was prepared to foot the bill, their suggestion could not be approved. Sir, such an arrogant and harsh reply on the part of the Association was really uncalled for. To raise funds for a rubbish centre, the CC considered following the example of other CCs by staging a concert where famous singing stars could be invited to take part and where senior officers from the People's Association together with other luminaries could also attend, and there would be no problem of raising enough money to build 20 to 30 rubbish centres. However, the high and haughty People's Association did not come to help, and moreover, the Management Committee did not want to bend themselves so low as to be sycophantic in their attitude. Therefore, nothing came out of that proposal. Since the People's Association said they had no money, therefore, the Management Committee suggested that the People's Association should ask the Minister for Finance, through the Ministry of Culture, to allocate the necessary funds for the building of the rubbish centre.

Sir, under my amendment, I would like the Minister to explain why the sum of $348,500 out of last year's allocation for CCs was not utilised.

Under FY 76, there is an allocation of $1 .1 million for the use of community centres. I would like the Minister to tell us whether a rubbish centre for my constituency costing about a thousand dollars is included under such allocation, so that in the end the Building Control Division will be able to issue a certificate of fitness for the whole building. I have to seize this opportunity to make a direct plea to the Minister.

At the beginning of this year, the Management Committee wrote to the People's Association to say that the lighting for the basketball court was always out of order due to some fault with the underground cables. Repairs would cost about $3,000 to $5,000. In order to prevent a short circuit of those underground cables and lamp-posts and thus endangering people who frequent the basketball court, I would like the Minister to direct the People's Association to take immediate measures to repair the lighting system, and to ensure that the People's Association does not delay by making any excuses. If anyone is electrocuted in the meantime, remedial action will be too late and the consequences will be tragic.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education (Mr Ahmad Mattar): Sir, when Leng Kee constituency was born in 1972, it inherited a fairly substandard community centre, As a start, I thought the Centre could serve its purpose and that I would be spared the effort of building a new one. But sometime last year we were told by the People's Association that in view of urban renewal development, the community centre has got to go. I think it has joined the fate of the five community centres of my good Friend, the Hon. Member for Telok Blangah. I have just received the estimates from the People's Association panel of architects, which show that the new Centre is going to cost $1.6 million. At present, the dollar-for-dollar contribution from the People's Association, has a ceiling of $150,000. I fully support the Hon. Member for Telok Blangah that with $150,000 you can hardly build a hut. I would therefore like the Minister to inform the House whether or not there is a possibility of the People's Association's contribution being increased to a more meaningful figure.

6.30 p.m.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, the People's Association is not a revenue-producing statutory board. Unlike other statutory boards, it has no power to levy taxes or impose rates on the services it provides. Its only asset, whatever it is, is the goodwill of the people. The money for the development project of the People's Association is supplied by the Ministry of Finance, and therefore its use is strictly controlled by the Treasury.

In the past few years, the People's Association has relied heavily on public contributions for whatever additional community centres or facilities it requires. The Government pays, as Members know, a subsidy to the building fund on a dollar-for-dollar basis up to a maximum of $150,000 for a key community centre. However, it now seems that this form of fund raising has put a heavy strain on the time and energy of Members of Parliament and also on the community leaders. Since there are many fund-raising campaigns going on at any one time, competition is very keen and moreover because of the slowing down of the economy in the past few years donations are not so forthcoming as in previous years.

However, there is no cause for despair. Community leaders should make a greater effort to reach the target. The People's Association's policy of inviting public participation in fund-raising campaigns to finance its projects will carry on. First, this form of fund-raising is good because it gives community leaders something to do and also make them enthusiastic about their work. Secondly, it creates more interest in community centre work. As a result of their fund-raising campaign the whole management committee of the Centre will be made aware of the need and the kind of activities that the community centre should have. Thirdly, it makes them proud of their work and they would be more willing to come forward to look after the Centre and also to guard it against vandalism, if ever there is any.

However, in view of the rapid changes due to urban renewal and also housing projects in the next few years, we have to accelerate the pace of community centre building projects to meet our future requirements. Many community centres in the old areas are affected by urban renewal. As the Member for Telok Blangah has so rightly pointed out, many of these old centres are affected by these housing projects or urban renewals and therefore they have to be pulled down.

To achieve these targets, additional funds are required. Owing to the high cost of building construction, it is not possible to rely so much on public donations, The Board of the People's Association has therefore recently submitted certain proposals to the Treasury and they are in the midst of a series of negotiations. I hope that the sentiments expressed by the Members of Parliament here in this House will add their weight to the Association's arguments, and I am sure Members' opinions and views will be seriously considered by the Ministry of Finance.

The Development Planning Committee of the People's Association has made a study of its requirements for the next five years. Based on the number of housing estates that the Housing and Development Board and the Jurong Town Corporation are going to build in the next five years, and also based on the ratio of 40,000 persons to a community centre, the People's Association estimated that they would require at least 28 new community centres for the whole of Singapore over the next five years to meet the requirements of the new housing estates. In addition, they would require another 27 new centres to replace the old ones which have to be knocked down, like those in Telok Blangah, Bras Basah, or Leng Kee constituencies. These old centres are either affected by urban renewal, or are in very bad condition and therefore have to be pulled down, or are presently housed in the Housing and Development Board shop premises, which are not really adequate or suitable as community centres. So in replacing these 27 old community centres, together with building 28 new centres, a total of 55 community centres will be required in the next five years. Based on a very modest cost of $300,000 for each community centre, we will require something like $16 million just for the construction of these centres, not including the cost of land acquisition. The amount is quite substantial. The People's Association's proposals to the Government for the construction of a Community Centre at $300,000 each cover what we call the basic core structure of a centre on the new site. The basic core structure will include a hall, office, storeroom, basket ball court, and so on, leaving all the additional facilities to be provided later by the usual fund-raising campaigns. In other words, we are asking the Treasury to allow us to have at least an initial sum of money for us to begin. The Centre must at least have a place on which to operate, and if any additional facilities are required the community leaders should go round collecting funds. We hope the Government would be able to give dollar-for-dollar subsidy up to a maximum of $150,000 for each Centre. Although this is a very substantial sum of money, we hope that this proposal can be favourably considered. But, of course, there are other priorities to be considered by the Ministry of Finance, though I cannot speak for them. In any case we are fighting very hard to obtain the necessary funds.

The Member for Kampong Kapor raised the matter about the dustbin in his community centre. I think there has been some misunderstanding here. It is not that we do not want to spend the money. The question is that we do not have the money to spend. The $300,000 that he mentioned is actually meant for development purposes. The grant as shown in the Development Estimates is to be used for building new community centres or new projects. Any other expenditure, such as repairs or the construction of a bin collecting centre will have to come from the Main Estimates. The construction of the bin centre at the site originally proposed involves a sum of $4,000. In fact, the People's Association has agreed to pay this $4,000 but the Management Committee wanted to re-site it somewhere else, for which an additional $2,000 is required. Unfortunately, at that time the Association had little funds left for this kind of work, and so it had been suggested to the Management Committee that in order to get the work done quickly this additional sum of $2,000 should be paid from the Management Committee fund. But the Management Committee turned down the Association's proposal. The People's Association had to wait for this year's allocation of funds because they have already gone to the bottom of the barrel for funds. That is the position.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Sir, may I put forward a suggestion to the Minister to help him reduce the financial burden in the construction of new community centres?

In all Housing Board estates there is provision for the construction of recreational and sports facilities and swimming pools, which are subsequently handed over to the Sports Council. May I suggest to the Minister to make an approach to the Housing Board to include the provision of community centre sites in their overall planning. This will help him to reduce his financial burden.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, the Housing Board normally sets aside a piece of land for community development. There again, we have to decide whether we have the money to pay for the land. The matter of finance comes in. It is not just that they give you a piece of land. You have to pay for it. According to the estimates, it costs about $5 per square foot.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: It is true that the People's Association has to pay for the land based on current land rate. What I am suggesting to the Minister is this: why cannot the Minister negotiate with the Housing and Development Board for special terms and get it free of charge for social services?

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: That will be ideal only if they agree to give us free of change. But every one has to show some sense of economic effectiveness. There is the question of accountability, and every department has got to account for its own expenditure. If the Housing Board is prepared to give us land free of change, then, of course, we will be very happy to accept. On the other hand, whether it is the Housing Board, the People's Association, or the Treasury. that gives the money, the money comes from the same source.

6.45 p.m.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, it is not the Minister's sympathy that we want, but his money. In any case, we wish him success in his negotiations with the Minister for Finance. If he wants any assistance, I have quite a bit of experience in negotiations and I am willing to give him my support.

Sir, with those words. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $44,760,690 for Head Q ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $14,700,500 for Head Q ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head R --

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Hwang Soo Jin and P. Govindaswamy.)

Under this subhead, I would touch upon the fire fighting policy of the Ministry with regard to improving the Fire Brigade's fire fighting capacity to control fire hazards in high-rise buildings. I think we are all aware. Sir, that high-rise building is now the chief media of urban development and more and more of our people will be located in high-rise buildings in the future, Along with this, I would expect that the Fire Brigade's capacity --

Dr Ong Leong Boon: On a point of order. Sir. There is a subhead on fire fighting, and I think the Member for Serangoon Gardens could discuss that under the relevant subhead.

The Chairman: I agree with the Member for Kim Seng. There is an amendment under the name of Dr Ong Leong Boon - amendment (9) to subhead BFA 1109, Fire Fighting and Ambulance Services. If the subject of the Member for Serangoon Gardens is purely on fire fighting, I suggest that he waits until then. But if it is one on general policy of the Ministry, he can carry on.

Mr Rodrigo: I think I made it quite plain at the outset that I was touching on the policy of the fire fighting capacity of the Fine Brigade.

The Chairman: In which case, I suggest you wait until amendment (9) is moved.

Mr Rodrigo: Very well, Sir.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, in his Budget Statement to the House, the Finance Minister showed great concern for the health of smokers and prescribed the shock treatment of higher customs and excise duty on tobacco. As a fairly heavy smoker myself. I must admit that I am responding to the treatment. The prospect of having to pay more for cigarettes has shocked me into cutting down on my consumption. Over the last few years, our Government seems to rely on higher taxes, charges and fines as a panacea for numerous social ills. Singapore became cleaner because of the introduction of heavy fines for littering; to reduce the number of cans on the road, we raised the road tax; to cut down on consumption of water, we raised the price of water. I am not here to question the wisdom of such measures, although in passing. I think it is pertinent to say that whilst in some cases the end justifies the means, this sort of "stick" ought to be used discriminately and as a last resort only when other measures of a less severe nature have failed to produce results.

What I really want to say under this subhead is simply that since the recently announced increase in duty on tobacco is with a view to bringing about better health to the people, the increased revenue derived therefrom which is estimated to amount to several millions of dollars should properly be spent on promoting better health of our people. In this regard, I cannot think of a better way of spending it than on the promotion of sports. Sports, as I see it, is perhaps the best form of preventive medicine. But looking through the expenditures of the Ministry over the last few years, I am unable to find evidence of active financial support having been given to the promotion of sports. Although for the first time there is a proposed grant of $2 million to the Singapore Sports Council, there does not appear to be a firm commitment since it has as yet to be sanctioned by the Development Planning Committee of Treasury who are known to be sticky on items which they consider to be of a non-revenue generating nature. Today. we have heard so much from the Minister for Culture. In any event, to-date the Council still owes the Government a' sum of $3.15 million being part of the costs incurred in the construction of the National Stadium. I would therefore urge the Minister to negotiate with his colleague, the Finance Minister, with a view to obtaining his agreement to allocate the entire increase in revenue from higher duty on tobacco for use in the promotion of sports. I would also urge the Hon. Minister to follow up the suggestion which I made during the debate on the Budget that all the surpluses of Singapore Pools (Pte.) Ltd, should go towards the promotion of sports. And how about making it compulsory for the Singapore Turf Club to surrender part of their takings annually for the promotion of sports? Surely, betting on horses is just as much an anti-social habit as smoking.

Whilst we have over the last few years been expanding our sports and recreational facilities, these are unfortunately not sufficiently decentralised as to be near centres with heavy concentrations of population. For instance, the seven constituencies neighbouring Jalan Kayu, namely. Upper Serangoon. Tampines, Nee Soon, Punggol. Sembawang and Serangoon Gardens, have a combined population of something like 250,000 to 300,000, but there is not a public swimming pool nearby. All our constituents need one badly, and although requests have been put forward by some of my colleagues, including the Minister of State for Labour, who is the MP for Upper Serangoon constituency, we have so far received no response. With a very young population as we have today, it is important that we should provide them with adequate facilities and amenities to let off steam and there is no better way than to get them involved in sports. We urge them to work hard but we should also provide them with opportunities and facilities to enjoy the fruits of their labour in a meaningful way. We decry their habits of frequenting coffee-houses and window-shopping at complexes, but what alternatives are we offering them?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, under this subhead I would like to speak on two different subjects, that is, temples and sports in Singapore. A number of temples, both authorised and unauthorised, have been demolished for urban renewal development. But the alternative sites given are, in most cases, not suitable for the temple devotees because the alternative sites for all the different temples are located at one place. For instance, the temples which were demolished at Silat Road, Sentosa and many other areas, were given alternative sites at Queenstown. Then there is the Rama temple at Changi Road, 14th milestone. The present site has been given by the Army and they have put up a permanent structure there. In view of urban renewal the Authority wants to take back the piece of land, but they do not want to give an alternative site. They must give an alternative site because the piece of land was given by the Army. The people in that area must have a temple there. Could the Minister consider allocating the alternative sites nearer to the former sites and not resite them in one corner of the island? I also want to know whether the Minister would consider building temples in new housing estates.

I now come to the subject of sports. Sometime ago I mentioned that our National Stadium was a white elephant. Fortunately, the officials responsible for the Stadium woke up and it has since been a popular meeting ground for many exciting games, so much so that to ease the traffic congestion there is a provision for the construction of an underpass across the main road.

I must commend the present Chairman of the Singapore Sports Council who is doing a wonderful job and is personally attending to the problems of the SSC. However. I wish to raise a few points. Some of the fields that have been taken over from the British Armed Forces are not being maintained properly, especially those at Tanglin, Dover Road and Farrer Park, where the turfing seems to be disappearing bit by bit, Even before the dry season began. there were already bald patches on the turf and this is because there is no one to advise on proper maintenance.

At Tanglin, the golf course and the tennis courts are obviously very popular. It is so popular that its revenue is second to the National Stadium. However, there are no proper changing rooms and toilet facilities. Although there has been a persistent demand for squash courts, to-date, none has been built. I am sure that squash courts together with additional indoor and outdoor games will bring additional revenue to the SSC. The tennis counts are over-used that there is little chance for any maintenance work to be carried out. It would be much better to cement these courts and thereby reduce the cost of maintenance. In fact, these facilities at Tanglin are so popular that even tourists find it convenient to use them. Furthermore, I must point out that theme are no proper parking facilities at this place.

The Singapore Sports Council is responsible for the organisation of Pesta Sukan. What plans has it got for this year's Pesta Sukan? Which countries will be invited to participate? I also want to know if the SSC has sufficient funds to subsidise the various sports associations to organise these games. In the past, the SSC suggested to its affiliated bodies to organise certain games but when funds were requested, the SSC left it to the individual sports associations. As a result, in the last few years Pesta Sukan lost its usual glamour. Thus, sportsmen from other countries have declined to participate in Pesta Sukan.

7.00 p.m.

Sir, of late, there has been a great demand for tennis counts all over the island. The available courts are so overused that as a result there is a racket going on over the bookings in certain places. Many of our people have all of a sudden decided to take up this game. I wonder whether the SSC would consider constructing more courts all oven the island.

The Football Association of Singapore has been mainly responsible for holding very successful football matches and has promoted a great deal of interest among the public. Unfortunately, the players are the ones who suffer most. When they take time-off from work, they lose their wages and thus their earning power. As a result, there seems to be a certain reluctance on the part of the players to come for practices. I feel that if these people can be financially assisted to the extent of their wages for the periods when they are required to practise they would not have to suffer any financial loss. I hope this incentive payment will benefit them and encourage them to play better soccer for Singapore.

Finally, I want to know what form of assistance the SSC is providing the Constituency Sports Clubs, and how many of the Constituency Sports Clubs have so far benefited from such assistance. Recently. I was nominated Chairman of the Inter-Constituency Sepak-Takraw Tournament Organising Committee. From my very short experience and also from the SSC Report on Inter-Constituency Sepak-Takraw Tournament 1975. I understand that it is a normal practice among Sports Liaison officials not to attend meetings conducted by SSC. Since these people are voluntary workers and they are so heavily taxed in their own work, would the SSC consider giving the Sports Liaison officials an allowance as an incentive to them and to ensure that they do not have to be out of pocket b~ meeting additional cost of travelling incurred in attending these meetings.

The Minister for Social Affairs (Encik Othman Bin Wok): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Jalan Kayu is a man after my own heart and to have such a suggestion from him, a smoker himself, is most commendable. The idea of getting definite sources of revenue to finance sports projects and the development of sports facilities in Singapore has been considered by my Ministry on many occasions. Many alternatives have been considered, including the lottery now known as the Singapore Sweep and the Football Pools which has now become Toto.

The House may wish to know that the Singapore Sports Council has formulated a 7-year Master Plan for the long-term development of public sports facilities in Singapore. The Master Plan recommends the creation of an international indoor stadium, a velodrome, multi-purpose indoor stadium, swimming pools, athletic stadium, tennis courts, football fields and squash courts. All these facilities will be decentralised all over the island.

The Master Plan envisages an expenditure commitment of $75.45 million and the recurrent expenditure, in excess of revenue, ranges from $6 million in 1976 to $8.8 million in 1982. Through consultations With the Ministry of Finance this year, a grant of $2 million has been provided for the development of sports facilities which cover some of the much needed facilities envisaged in the Master Plan which I have mentioned.

Bearing in mind the urgency to develop adequate sports facilities in order to promote sports for the masses, the present system of financing sports through grants and loans plus interest may not be sufficient. I agree with the Member that the additional revenue derived from the increase in import duty on cigarettes and tobacco as has been announced recently, should be channelled for sports promotion purposes. In fact, prior to the announcement on the increase in cigarette and tobacco duties, my Ministry had intended to request the Ministry of Finance to levy a few cents tax on each packet of cigarettes for the purpose of sports promotion. In 1974, duty was levied on 3.610 million kilogrammes of local and imported cigarettes. At the rate of one kilogramme of tobacco to 88 packets of cigarettes of 10 sticks each, the total volume works out to about 317.715 million packets. With just a levy of a few cents, we could, in fact, expect to collect an additional revenue for sports promotion equivalent to the additional revenue from the recent increase in duties in cigarette and tobacco.

As soon as the announcement was made by the Minister for Finance, I suggested to him that at least 50% of the additional revenue arising from duties on cigarettes should be channelled to the Singapore Sports Council so that the annual grant in the Budget may be correspondingly reduced. I fully agree with the Member that smokers who ignore Government's call to reduce or stop smoking, which is a serious health hazard, should contribute in a positive manner to sports which is health-giving. I am not one of the veteran smokers in the Cabinet who are immunised against lung and other pulmonary diseases referred to by the Minister for Finance. In fact. I have never smoked at all. I support the views of the Member for Jalan Kayu, not because I am not a smoker but because we need a definite source of funds to finance public sports facilities, and to ask for 50% of the additional revenue from the duties on cigarettes seems reasonable enough.

On the question of asking the Singapore Turf Club to support sports from its revenue, this again is a matter which is in the hands of my colleague, the Minister for Finance. I can suggest it to him,

As regards Toto, it is for sports. Its origin can be traced to a proposal made by my Ministry, as I have mentioned earlier, to raise money for sports. I would like to thank the Member for his suggestion. As I have already said, negotiation is going on between my Ministry and the Ministry of Finance on the matter.

As regards the Member for Anson, he has brought up the question of temples and sports which appear to be unrelated subjects, because one relates to the spiritual realm while the other to temporal affairs. However, he has a point in bringing up these two subjects together, since sports deal with the enrichment of the spirit, one relating to the religious spirit and the other is what all of us in Singapore is quite concerned with, that is, building a rugged physique. He has referred to temples which have to give way to urban renewal and other development projects.

It must be emphasised that development projects which are for the benefit of the people as a whole must go on. If any building is in the way of such development, obviously it will have to go. This is unavoidable, This applies not only to temples but also to mosques and churches.

It is the policy of the Government to provide sites in every new satellite town for the building of mosques, churches, Hindu or Chinese temples for the people living in these new satellite towns. This policy has already been announced and will be implemented. The Government cannot provide a site to replace every religious building affected by urban renewal and development. What is desirable is to build a new Hindu temple in a satellite town where there are a large number of Hindus. A good suggestion is to build one such temple for several temples affected by development. The management committees of these temples should pool their resources to get a new temple built as soon as possible. The choice of a site for the new temple is left to the Hindu Endowment Board and the Hindu Advisory Board which are concerned with the problem of the construction of new temples at the satellite towns. In this regard. Sir, I have already directed the Hindu Endowment Board, of which the Member for Anson is the Chairman, to set up a management committee to coordinate the clearance of sites used for religious purposes and to build new temples in satellite towns. The management committee which will be set up under the Hindu Endowment Act will advise the various management committees to transfer compensation money from the demolished temples to the Board for use specifically for the building of new temples in satellite towns. The committee will also look into the other aspects, including fund-raising, for the construction of new temples in satellite towns.

On the question of sports, in the last Budget sitting the Member referred to the National Stadium as a white elephant. Now he says that the National Stadium is not a white elephant. Instead, he says that the elephant is causing traffic congestion. He has praised the new Chairman of the Singapore Sports Council for attending personally to the problems of the Council, including the construction of an underpass which not only eases traffic congestion but also provides a short-cut to the Stadium and a safe passage for the convenience of the public.

He has also raised a number of points concerning the maintenance of sports facilities as well as assistance to sports organisations. The fields at Tanglin. Dover Road and Farrer Park, under the management of the Singapore Sports Council, are being maintained regularly throughout the year. There is a heavy demand for the use of these fields by members of the public, especially during week-ends and public holidays. The fields are, therefore, without a doubt generally over-used and this causes heavy wear and tear. This goes to emphasise that the fields of the Singapore Sports Council are fully utilised and that theme is a shortage of playing fields.

On the question of tennis at Tanglin, the players normally are already properly attired for the game. However, those who wish to change on use the toilet facilities can do so at the booking office where such facilities are available. Steps are being taken to convent a small hut, adjacent to the tennis count, into a changing room.

7.15 p.m.

In 1975, the Sports Council requested that the clay courts at Tanglin be cemented, but it was turned down by the Ministry of Finance because they felt that it would be more economical to cement the courts at a time when major repairs or renovations were due.

The SSC has tennis courts located at different pants of the island and the most popular courts are those at the National Stadium, Farmer Park and Tanglin. The Council has implemented a twice-a-week booking system at the National Stadium on Mondays and Thursdays to enable more people to have a chance to play. The previous booking system was unsatisfactory as theme were complaints from the public. As a result, the Council insists that bookings can only be made in person between 8 am, and 10 am. This arrangement took effect from, 18th August, 1975 and it has been found to be working very satisfactorily. Steps are also being taken to floodlight the courts at Farmer Park as the peak hours are between 5.30 p.m. and 10 p.m.

The Council has also plans to build another eight tennis courts and nine squash courts at the Kallang Complex and two more of each at St. Wilfrid Road in the Whampoa area. At the moment, we already have 11 squash courts in use.

The Pesta Sukan is an annual feature of our sports programme and it has proved to be very popular. With increased support from local participants and the emphasis on mass participation, the Council has been and will be catering for more local competitions and mass participation events such as the National Walk, National Jog and National Cycling. The national sports associations participating in the Pesta Sukan receive a subsidy and the Council also provides for the medals for all the competitions. However, those national sports associations wishing to include foreign participation can do so provided they are responsible for all such expenses involved.

In 1975, the SSC provided a small subsidy to all constituencies which had organised a Constituency Sports Association (CSA) on a Constituency Sports Club (CSC). The Council is considering the possibility of giving another subsidy in 1976 for all constituency sports clubs, The following are the forms of assistance that the Sports Council has given or will be providing to the constituency sports clubs:

(1) The Council's assistant sports officers will attend management committee meetings of the CSA on CSC to help with their immediate problems. They will also assist the sports liaison officers in the organisation of intra-constituency sports.

(2) The Sports Council will provide free auditing services to the clubs.

(3) All donations to the clubs via the SSC will be tax free.

(4) The clubs' use of SSC facilities will be at a concession rate.

(5) A seminar for Sports Liaison Officers and Chairmen and members of the CSA on CSC was conducted in 1975. It is true that SLOs are voluntary workers, But the Sports Council has provided them with these privileges:

(a) free passes to witness football matches at the National Stadium;

(b) concession rates at SSC instructional lessons in swimming, tennis and squash:

(c) concession mates for use of all SSC swimming pools; and

(d) special rates for all seminars organised by the SSC.

The SSC is therefore sympathetic towards sports liaison officers, If they are advisers of the Constituency Sports Clubs - I believe most of them are Members of Parliament - and if they feel strongly about the matter of allowances, I suggest they bring it to the attention of the Council.

As regards incentives for our football players, this matter is under the jurisdiction of the FAS and I believe the FAS is the body to negotiate with the respective employers of these football players on the matter of refunding or reimbursing whatever monetary loss they have suffered by way of attending practices.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, there is one point that I have left out. As regards the Somerset Road temple, the matter has still not been settled yet. Can the Minister take action to settle the matter?

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, the Member can rest assured that I am looking into the matter actively and will settle it.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I wish to thank the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs for his comments on sports. Pursuing on the points that he has made, may I say that with regard to changing facilities and toilets at the tennis courts at Farmer Park where we have 14 tennis courts, there is not even one changing room. We would be most grateful if he could build a changing room for tennis players at Farmer Park.

Secondly, I think the Minister did comment that in the coming year, eight new tennis courts will be built. Just two days ago, or yesterday, when the Minister of State for National Development commented on the fringe car parks, he said that those car parks could be converted into tennis courts and squash courts. May I suggest that the Chairman of the Singapore Sports Council approach the Minister of State for National Development in pursuit of this same matter. I would also suggest that the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs should approach the Minister of State for National Development on the same matter.

Sir, on the point of allowance for football players in the inter-constituency games, I was told that this year the allowance would be exactly the same as last year. In fact, theme was a proviso to the effect that the allowance for this year might be slashed because of some Finance Ministry decision. Can I seek the assurance of the Minister for Social Affairs that the allowance for the participating teams for football anyway be maintained at last year's figures and, of course, if possible, increase it to a larger sum?

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I must say that I am simply delighted by the reply of the Hon. Minister to my suggestion and I wish him success in his negotiations with the Hon. Minister for Finance. In the event of his being successful, any smoker who should die from smoking could at least die with the knowledge that he died for a good cause!

Sir, there is one point that I am still not quite certain and that is the revenue from Toto. Why should the Hon. Minister negotiate with the Hon. Minister for Finance? From the very outset, in the setting up of the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd, the objective was laid down cleanly that the money made therefrom is to finance sports. I made the point in my speech during the Budget debate. The company has several millions of dollars in the bank. Why should the Minister for Social Affairs continue to negotiate? I would have thought that it is his might to claim that money.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, on the question of a changing room at Farrer Park tennis courts raised by the Member for Kim Seng, there is a changing room at the sports centre at the moment. I have been there and I saw a changing room there. If that is not enough, we may look into the question of adding a few more for the tennis players.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Just one more.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: All might. That makes it easier still. We can add one more.

As regards the allowance for the inter-constituency sports. I am not aware of any slashing of the allowance. But I will look into this matter and the Chairman of the SSC can help me out with this.

On the question of the Toto money, well, it should have come straight to the SSC. But as matters stand, this is for the Minister for Finance to decide on the matter. As I said just now, I will be negotiating with the Minister for Finance on that and I hope Members can give me all the support they can.

Some Hon. Members: Yes, we will.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am glad to hear from the Minister for Social Affairs that he would be building eight squash courts this year. May I ask him in which constituency will the squash counts be built? Will any be built in Sembawang?

The Member for Jalan Kayu has suggested the construction of a swimming pool. In the case of swimming pools, we have two in Sembawang Constituency and we are prepared to give him a swimming pooI if he wants it. If theme is such a plan, we are prepared to give up one swimming pool to a neighbouring constituency.

As regards the building of squash counts, if possible, I would like to have some built in my constituency because the young people in the rural areas are also very fond of squash. If squash court facilities are concentrated in the urban areas, then those living in the mural areas have to travel a long way to the City area to play squash. Sir,I hope the Minister for Social Affairs will consider the possibility of building squash courts in the rural areas.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Sir, may I join in this question of lending support to the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs with regard to seeking more funds for the Singapore Sports Council's activities? Just now the Minister mentioned that as of right the profits from Toto pools should be ploughed into the SSC for sports activities. Whilst I speak for myself. I am sure Hon. Members on the Backbench would give their heartiest support to the Minister too when he negotiates with his colleague, the Hon. Minister for Finance.

Sir, I think the question involved here is the objective of the setting up of Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd. To my mind, as far as I can recollect, from the replies given by the Minister concerned the profits of the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd are to be ploughed back for the promotion of sports in Singapore. Today, with amendments to the Sports Council Act, more constituency sports clubs are to be formed; and I am sure more money and facilities will be required by all these CSCs. As an example, the Member for Sembawang, with two swimming pools in his constituency, is still not happy as he wants some squash courts. Well, that is quite natural because as more and more constituencies form their own sports clubs, they want to provide more facilities for their constituents.

7.30 p.m.

As the Member for Jalan Kayu has suggested, over the years the fringe constituencies around Upper Serangoon, Punggol. Jalan Kayu, Tampines, including Paya Lebar, have always wanted a swimming pool. A piece of land has been found in Surin Avenue, but no funds could be made available for the construction of a swimming pool despite my questions to this House. I think the time has come, right and ripe, -emphasise "right and ripe" - for the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs to press on with his colleague, the Minister for Finance, for more funds, and if that is not forthcoming we will debate on it again at another time.

The other question concerns what the Member for Sembawang has just mentioned, i.e, increasing the number of activities by providing more facilities so that the constituents can benefit. He has my support, Sir. Also, the Minister can be assured of my support.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, to answer the Member for Sembawang, it is very difficult to please everybody, but we will do our best. If it is possible, we will provide sports facilities for the people in the rural areas too. I know that the Member for Sembawang is a good sportsman. He man 13 laps at the National Stadium in 24 minutes, and that is an achievement. I can assure him that we will look into the question of building squash courts or jogging tracks in Sembawang. To the Member for Punggol, I thank him for his support.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead ACA 1111.

Sir, sometime ago two ILO experts were seconded to our Registry of Cooperative Societies to make recommendations on the constitution of our cooperative societies. They had recommended the reorganisation of the Registry of Cooperative Societies into a Cooperative Development Department. The new cooperative legislation would encourage the consolidation and diversification of cooperative activities and the formation of an integrated system of a primary, secondary and an apex organisation. May I know how successful has the Ministry been in the amalgamation of the several cooperative societies into a national cooperative movement, and whether all those cooperative societies are in a healthy state?

What has happened to the recommendations made by the ILO experts'? Have they been implemented? Sir, to-date how many cooperative societies have gone into multi-purpose business? May I have the facts and figures on this?

I gather that with no full-time officials to look into this subject, the concept of a multipurpose society is not possible. For instance, the Teachers' Cooperative Society, which had gone into multi-purpose business sometime ago. could not balance its accounts. I understand that the outgoing committee could not account to the newly elected committee for a big sum of money and a proper explanation has yet to be given. I wonder what has happened to this society? Is the Registrar satisfied with the administration of the society? Could the Minister comment on it?

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, the House will recall that during the last Budget debate I mentioned that the ILO experts had made a number of recommendations to the Government. These include the reorganisation of the Registry of Cooperative Societies into a Cooperative Development Department, the formation of a Cooperative Apex Organisation for the cooperative movement, the revision of the cooperative law and the establishment of a Cooperative Training Centre. As a first phase of the reorganisation of the Registry of Cooperative Societies, the establishment of the Registry has been strengthened with the increase of four additional staff, including two of executive officer grade. The strengthening of the staffing situation has made it possible to reorganise the Registry on a functional basis. It has also enabled the Registry now to undertake more promotional and educational work for the benefit of the cooperative movement.

On the question of unifying the cooperative movement. this has been actively pursued. A cooperative convention of representatives of various cooperative societies was held in March last year to discuss the proposed Cooperative Apex Organisation. Owing to divergent views on the constitution of the proposed Cooperative Apex Organisation, as well as the question of representation, it was decided that this proposal be deferred until relevant details of the revised cooperative laws are known.

On the question of a revision of the existing cooperative legislation, the draft Bill has been sent to the Singapore National Cooperative Union and the National Trades Union Congress to seek their views on certain fundamental issues which affect all cooperative societies, including those belonging to the trade union movement. Comments from the Singapore National Cooperative Union have been received, but the NTUC is still studying the draft legislation. We have sent them a reminder and are still waiting for an answer. The cooperative movement is by and large very healthy, with the exception of a few weak cooperative societies which are receiving guidance and assistance from the Registry.

I agree fully with the Member that good management is vitally important for the successful operation of cooperative societies, including multi-purpose societies. Unfortunately, only a few cooperative societies can afford full-time staff which are particularly required by those societies which have been converted into multi-purpose societies. It will take time for the movement to develop professionalism in the administration and management of cooperative societies. In this regard, the establishment of a cooperative training centre is important. This centre will in future conduct courses for in-service training of staff and for the training of officers and managers of cooperative societies on a regular basis.

Regarding multi-purpose cooperative societies, at present theme are seven of them. Two were converted from Thrift amid Loan societies, while the remaining five were formed as multi-purpose societies from the start.

The Hon. Member also wanted to know the position of the Singapore Teachers' Multi-purpose Cooperative Society. The big sum of money which he mentioned actually refers to discrepancies of consumer stocks in hand valued at $25,544. which could not be verified owing to the absence of a proper stock record, The Registrar is satisfied that the present management committee has been making an effort to rectify the shortcoming. The society has also been advised to improve its accounting system and to have its staff trained in proper accounting practices with the help of its external auditors.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the explanation of the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1111.

Sir, this amendment is moved to seek some information from the Minister. Can the Minister inform the House the type of complaints received and entertained by the Central Complaints Bureau? What happens to the complaints when they are received? What kind of investigations are made, if at all made, on receiving complaints from the public? If the complaint is against a public servant, what follow-up action is taken? And is the head of the department kept informed? Is the complainant advised of the outcome of the complaint that he has made?

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, through the years the Central Complaints Bureau has established itself as an avenue for complaints from persons who consider themselves aggrieved by acts or omission on the pant of individual civil servants or departments. The Bureau, not unlike the famous Justice Pao series on television, as mentioned by the Member for Katong just now, is prepared to take a determined stand to rectify a wrong done. In several instances too, the processing of one particular complaint has led to a general overall improvement of the department as a whole. Despite the burden which the investigation of complaints imposes on the inspected offices and departments, their response has been generally satisfactory and encouraging. While the Bureau endeavours to treat the inspected department or officer with consideration, it will on no account do so at the expense of complainants, and it displays suitable firmness where necessary.

The Bureau received 695 complaints last year. Complaints received and attended to by the CCB fall under three broad categories. The first category relates to complaints against individual civil servants. Cases include discourtesy, misconduct, petty bureaucracy, unnecessary delay of service, and discrimination of service. The second category relates to complaints directed against Government departments and statutory boards, The complaints are usually directed against departments which have to do enforcement work.

7.45 p.m.

The last category of cases attended to are, strictly speaking, not complaints but rather appeals for assistance and inquiries. All cases, either big or small, referred to the Bureau are studied. If necessary, investigations are made before action is taken to refer the complaint, The Bureau sometimes receives complaints which are malicious or frivolous against hardworking and innocent public servants. While ensuring that such public servants are protected from such injustice through careful investigations, the Bureau never hesitates to take action against any public servant who has failed to discharge his or hen duty properly.

It is the policy of the Bureau to keep the complainant informed of the outcome of his complaint immediately. For cases requiring protracted investigation and verification of statements made by various parties, interim replies are given to let the complainant know that the Bureau is still actively pursuing the issue on his or her behalf, The Bureau has a small staff but, with the efficient deployment of staff and the cooperation of the departments which have dealings with the Bureau, so fan work in the Bureau has not in any way been handicapped by the limited staff.

As part of the campaign to reduce incidents of discourtesy in the public service, since September 1974 the Bureau has started deploying its officers to conduct observations and inspections at various Government departments and statutory bodies which have frequent dealings with the public. From September to December 1974 the Bureau made 122 such visits. Last year, 465 visits were made. Besides observing the way officers at the counter treat members of the public, an assessment of the facilities, such as. directional signs, cleanliness of waiting areas, etc.. available for the public, was also made. Reports of the visits which were considered worthwhile for the respective heads of departments to note and to take action have been brought to the attention of the departments concerned.

The Bureau has found these visits fruitful and effective in eradicating discourtesy in the public service. Hence. for the current year the number of visits planned will be doubled.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, in view of the complaint by the Minister that the Central Complaints Bureau is under-staffed, I hope the Bureau will get less and less complaints about the public servants from now onwards. With that hope I beg to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to he allocated for Head R be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead BCA 1111

Sir, I wish to congratulate the Minister for Social Affairs and to offer him a bouquet for the immediate action taken to resolve the problems faced by the Haj pilgrims who were left stranded because of the unavailability of aircraft which had been booked by two travel agents who handled the travelling arrangements for the Haj pilgrims last year. I hope that the Minister's assurance given in answer to an oral question by the Member for Geylang Senai. that MUIS would take over the management of the Haj affairs this year and arrange with Singapore Airlines to transport Haj pilgrims from Singapore to perform their Haj pilgrimage can be i in p1 implemented.

Likewise as with the Minister's promise to provide welfare officers for the Singapore pilgrims, the MUIS had, in fact, provided four welfare officers last year, when the pilgrims were staying in Mecca and Medina. I wish to thank the President of MUIS for his efforts to make available the services of the four officers concerned.

However, I wish to know. Sir, what was the cost incurred by the MUIS in respect of these officers, and whether reports have been received from these officers. Is the Minister satisfied with the performance of these officers in looking after the welfare of the Haj pilgrims from Singapore?

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, firstly, I would like to thank the Member for his kind words. It is not only the Ministry of Social Affairs or the Muslim Religious Council but there were many other Government departments which were involved in solving the problems faced by the pilgrims last year. We moved in just at the right time and therefore we were able to solve those problems, This year the Muslim Religious Council will be responsible for pilgrimage matters between Singapore and Mecca.

It is also true, Sir, that last year four welfare officers accompanied our pilgrims to Mecca. Two of them volunteered their good services free of charge. As regards the other two officers, although the cost of their air passage was paid by the travel agents, the expenses incurred during their 60-odd days stay in Saudi Arabia to carry out their duties, amounted to $3,941.73. This sum includes service charges by sheikhs in Mecca, Jeddah and Medina, transportation charges, costs of accommodation and personal expenses. Pending approval from Government ~o meet this expenditure from public funds, the MUIS paid out the above sum out of the Baitul-mal Account, in the first instance. The Ministry of Finance has been asked to refund to the MUIS the sum expended.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): Sir, were these two welfare officers appointed by the MUIS, on did they voluntarily come forward to offer their services as welfare officers? As regards air passage, was it paid for by the travel agents who arranged the flights for the pilgrims, on was it paid by those who had no connection whatsoever with the pilgrimage?

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, on the question of the two welfare officers who gave voluntary service, they submitted their names to the MUIS for voluntary work, and were accepted by the Council.

On the question of the air passage, offhand I am not in a position to say anything definite, but I think it must have been paid by the agencies involved with the pilgrimage from Singapore to Mecca.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, if the cost of the air passage for these two welfare officers was paid by the travel agencies which organised the pilgrimage, this is indeed improper. If anything is given free, there must be an ulterior motive, The travel agencies which have direct connection with the Singapore haj pilgrims should not take part in providing for the welfare officers. If I am not mistaken these two volunteers themselves are sheikhs dealing with haj pilgrims, and I believe they both have a special interest in offering voluntary service. So also is the case with the aim passages offered. I beg the Minister to give serious consideration to this matter.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I will take note of that for the next pilgrimage.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): With that assurance given by the Minister, I hope this year there will not be a recurrence of this affair. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEA 1107.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he could set up a home for disabled children or children born with congenital diseases. According to statistics, there are about 8,000 such children. I think this is a very urgent problem and requires immediate attention. I make this request because I understand that the number of homes for the care of unfortunate children managed by the Salvation Army and other charitable organisations are not sufficient.

I received an appeal from a housewife in my constituency who told me that she was unlucky enough to have a child who has been afflicted with poliomyelitis since birth and could not move all these years. Her family is poor and most of the members of the family have to go out to work and so they are not able to take came of this child. She has asked me to approach the Social Welfare Department to find a place for her child. I have made several applications to the Social Welfare Department. However, all the replies have been negative, stating that there is no vacancy and the child has to wait.

Another case relates to a petty trader. He is unfortunate enough to have two children both with some congenital diseases. One of them is being taken cane of by a home for disabled children but the other child is left out as there is no place for her. I believe theme are many more such cases. I would therefore sincerely request the Minister to consider establishing a home for such children in order to alleviate the hardship of those families. However, as a temporary measure, the Ministry could find some suitable place to accommodate these children until a proper home is built.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of Interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1976 to 31st March, 1977, and ask leave to sit again on Monday, 22nd March, 1976.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.