MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1976 TO 31ST MARCH, 1977

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day]

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head R (cont.) --

Resumption of Debate on Question (19th March. 1976).

"That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEA 1 107."-(Mr Teong Eng Siong).

Question again proposed.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, there are a number of voluntary organisations that serve handicapped children. Some of them maintain homes for such children while others run schools and training centres. Disabled children should, wherever possible, remain in their own homes where their families can give them the personal care, attention and love that are very necessary for their growth and development. Children may be admitted into residential institutions only as a last resort. With this view, every possible assistance is given to encourage families to care for their disabled children in their own homes. This includes training and education provided by voluntary welfare organisations and counselling and welfare for the children and their families. In this respect, the Government helps voluntary welfare organisations to provide those essential services by disbursing quarterly grants to meet administrative expenses and salaries of the numerous teaching staff employed in the voluntary welfare organisations.

The voluntary organisations have very ably provided welfare services for the disabled, and the Government will continue to provide support through consultation and financial assistance. The Government does not, however, intend to duplicate the work of these organisations but will work more closely with them to achieve a more effective service for the public. In this connection, voluntary welfare organisations do from time to time submit proposals to expand their facilities. Our Ministry has always supported such proposals and will continue to support any organisation prepared to construct homes for handicapped children who need admission into residential institutions.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to ask the Senior Parliamentary Secretary two questions. In his answer, he said that his Ministry has always encouraged private charitable and welfare organisations to expand their work and will support any organisation that is prepared to build homes for disabled children. This is, of course, very good and I hope that his Ministry can implement this policy effectively. According to my information there are about 8,000 disabled children and they are in a very pitiful state. In view of the present inadequate capacity of the homes to accommodate all of them, I hope the Social Welfare Department can do something concrete to help such an unfortunate lot.

I would like to ask him another question. Recently the Social Welfare Department has been promoting a "Return to the society" campaign for the aged people living in institutional homes. This campaign is to encourage them to go back to their personal home environment so that they can enjoy their remaining years in a more congenial atmosphere with their families. Of course. I agree to this beneficial measure. We must befriend all people and treat the children of other people as our own and respect the elders and the aged of other people as our own. Since we are a democratic socialist state which aims at and pays respect to virtues of a welfare state, I support this policy. However, I would like to ask him for more details and whether he is satisfied with its implementation and achievement so far.

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): (In Mandarin): Sir, in Singapore there are quite a number of subnormal children. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether there is any home to accommodate these retarded children and whether the Social Welfare Department has any plan to help them.

Mr Chan Chee Song: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Sembawang has raised two questions. On the first question. I would say that we have great confidence in our private charitable and welfare organisations which do welfare work. I have full confidence in their ability to deal with matters of accommodation and rendering service to disabled children.

The second point about respecting the elders of others as our elders and treating the children of others as our own children, I would say that personally I agree with him but we should not expect the Government to do everything. This is a national problem and we are dealing with the matter on a national basis. What concerns us is to provide practical measures to tackle this problem, such as rendering assistance to private charitable and welfare organisations in their work. If they are able to provide homes we will support them, and we also try to help the old folks to return to their family environment under the "Return to the society" scheme so that they can enjoy a more congenial environment. We are doing this on an experimental basis.

The old folks staying in these institutional homes still feel lonely in spite of the help and services that we are providing them. There have been quarrels among the old folks too. If we can send them back to their own families, we will do so. For a start, as a Government department we encourage them to have contacts with other sections of our people or to help in simple chores in the institutional homes as well as to establish contact with society and ultimately returning to society. In this way they will not feel lonely and they can prove themselves to be useful. If the various institutions and members of the public can provide them with meaningful activities and social contact, this will help to alleviate their problem and it will go a long way to make our "Return to the society" scheme a success. On the question of homes for retarded children, we are not establishing any as yet, as the private sector is doing quite well in catering this category of children. As regards what Government has achieved in all these measures or schemes. I would say that we are still awaiting further developments.

Mr Ho See Bong: (In Mandarin): Sir, just now the Senior Parliamentary Secretary said that charitable organisations cannot depend on the Government assistance alone and that members of the public will have t~ do their part. As regards the home for retarded children, I feel that the Government should take the lead by setting out some concrete plans, and not just stress an important need for it.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): (In Mandarin): Sir, I fully agree to the points raised by my colleagues on the care of disabled and retarded children.

I feel that both the Government and members of the public have not done enough towards rendering welfare service in this respect. The Member for Bras Basah has rightly said that the Government should take the lead and should not be content with just stressing its viewpoint only.

There are only about 300 or 400 places available for disabled children in these homes whereas, there are thousands of disabled children who cannot be well looked after by their families. Members of the family usually have to go out to work and there will be nobody left at home to look after these children. So we cannot just stress that the private sector or members of the public should do more. On the other hand, I would suggest that the Government should take the lead and do something more positive, in terms of physical encouragement besides the moral one.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Sir, we have the Singapore Association for Retarded Children which runs four children's homes. They are the Lee Kuo Chuan Centre, Geylang Centre, Jurong Centre and the Toa Payoh Centre.

Just now two Members have aired their feelings and I fully sympathise with them. Of course, looking after such children in their own homes is a problem to their families. But the question is: how are the children affected psychologically? And this is important. It is common to see parents putting their children in the homes and then forget about the whole thing. This will lead to a situation where children once out of sight means out of love. In this way, the children would just dissipate away. My thinking is that the parents should first have to look after their own children. It is only when they cannot tackle this problem, that it becomes the Government's problem to sort things out, as a last resort

If the Member for Sembawang could raise with us the matter of two cases mentioned earlier, we will consider according to their merits, the possibility of, say, recommending accommodation for the children in an institutional home.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary said that he hopes the private sector and members of the public could do something to help the aged to "return to the society". I agree with him on that suggestion. I would like to ask him whether he has got any concrete plan to help the private sector to do what he has suggested.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Sir, I said that this scheme is being experimented at the present. We have not yet come to any concrete solution. If the reaction from the society is good, then we will do something more.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the detailed explanation given by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEC 1111.

Sir, we all know that creches are established to serve the needs of working mothers. They find it convenient to leave their children in the creches while they go to work. In an industrialised society the need for creches correspondingly increases with the need for more women to join the workforce. In the present labour-tight situation in Singapore, more women are being encouraged to leave their kitchens and join the workforce. More creches are, therefore, needed, otherwise they cannot be released from their household chores and their children.

2.45 p.m.

But I was extremely surprised to learn that the creches in Singapore are not well patronised. In other words, they are not as popular as they ought to be. I wonder whether the Ministry of Social Affairs has looked into the reasons why these creches are so poorly patronised. Is it due to poor management, inappropriate location, or is it because the opening hours are unsuitable to them? I would suggest to the Minister to conduct a thorough survey to investigate into this problem further.

I would also like to suggest to the Minister that a creche need not be an elaborate establishment. The ground floor of an HDB flat or a JTC flat will serve its purpose. In this connection, may I ask the Minister whether his Ministry has any plans to build a creche in Jurong Neighbourhood II, or better known as Boon Lay Garden? There is a creche in Jurong Neighbourhood I, but it is miles away from Boon Lay Garden. Thus its distance away from Boon Lay Garden is inconvenient to the working mothers living in Boon Lay Garden. I met some of my constituents in Boon Lay Garden and they share my view that there should be a creche in Neighbourhood II to encourage mothers to go to work. Can the Minister enlighten this House whether he has any plans to build a creche in Jurong Neighbourhood II?

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to support the Member for Jurong in asking whether the present system of running creches is really suitable for the working mothers. The present rate of fees is very discouraging. Firstly, even before an application is approved the working mother has to pay the full rate of $3 per day. All applicants have to wait until such time as their actual financial standing has been determined before they are allowed the concessionary rate of 20 cents as against $3 per day. This tends to discourage working mothers from putting their children in the creches.

The other point I would like to raise is the opening hours. The creche in Toa Payoh is open from 7.00 a.m. to 7.00 p.m. I think this does not take into consideration the fact that the factories in the area operate a three-shift system. This is another reason why most of the creches are under-utilised.

May I suggest that the Ministry review the existing system so that more working mothers would be able to make use of the creches. For those creches which are under-utilised, may I suggest that they should be thrown open to children in primary schools as day centres so that the children will not run around the streets in the housing estates.

Mr Chan Chee Song: Mr Speaker, Sir, it should be pointed out that the creche services are heavily subsidised. Before a creche is established in any particular area, the Social Welfare Department has to be certain that there is a demand for it. The situation is constantly reviewed and where there is a need more creches will be built. As far as possible creches will be built in the Housing Board estates within industrial areas.

Although there are plans to establish more Social Welfare Department creches, the present policy is to encourage and help the private sector, especially private industries, and even the smaller factories, to set up their own creches in or near their workplaces to assist working mothers who have young children. The aim is to encourage more women to take up employment in the factories. The Social Welfare Department will advise and assist any firm that wishes to start a creche for its female workers.

The present Jurong Town creche has a capacity of 100 children. However, only about 80 to 85 children attend the creche daily. There are still vacant places in the present creche to cater for their needs. A second creche in Jurong will only be considered if the present creche enjoys full attendance and if the demand for a second creche is justified. Future creches to be built by the Government will be small but functional. They will be situated within the blocks of Housing Board flats so as to bring the creche services closer to the families who use them.

I come now to the Member for Toa Payoh's question about the opening hours and the fees charged by the creches. The creches are open from 7.00 am, to 5.00 p.m. Some of them close a little later if the mothers return to the creches late. We have a system to determine the fees to be charged, as follows: Family income of $1,200 and above ...$3 full-day $2 half-day Family income of $800-$1,200 ...$2 full-day Family income of $500-$800 ...$1.20 full-day Family income of $300-$500 ...$0.50 full-day Family income of $300 and below ...$0.20 full-day Recipients of public assistance ...No Charge.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, this is precisely the point that I have raised. When a working mother applies for a place for her child, she is charged the maximum rate of $3 pending the verification of the family's income. I would like to repeat that this is a deterrent to the applicants. If a working mother has an income of $300. she is entitled to pay only 20 cents. But in the meantime while an investigation is being conducted, she has to pay $3. Moreover, the opening hours of the creche do not actually help the mothers, the majority of whom are working on a weekly shift, alternating with a day or night shift.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned that before a creche can be established, his Ministry will have to find out whether or not there is a demand for it. May I ask how is his Ministry going to ascertain the demand? Can he enlighten this House in this regard?

I have also pointed out just now that Boon Lay Garden is quite far from the present creche in Jurong Neighbourhood I. In fact, it is about four miles away. We cannot, therefore, expect a working mother to travel a distance of four miles to the creche before going to work. There is indeed an urgent need to build a creche in Boon Lay Garden.

Mr Chan Chee Song: Sir, the Member for boa Payoh has said that the charge of $3 has deterred working mothers from sending their children to the creches. I do not think so. So far there has been no complaint of the practice whereby when a working mother first sends her child to a creche, she has to pay $3 and only after the family income has been ascertained that the fee will be adjusted accordingly. So far we have not received any complaint of this nature from the mothers.

Anyway, we have found out that most of the creches are not fully utilised. Even the creche in Jurong has an attendance of only 80 to 85 children. The Member for Jurong has said that another creche is needed in another neighbourhood in his area. I would suggest that he conducts an investigation to establish whether there is really a need for it. We will not construct a creche if there is no patronage, otherwise Government funds will just go down the drain.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Sir; although the reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary is not quite satisfactory, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Hwang Soo Jin -

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BED 1111.

The Chairman: Mr Hwang, amendment (7).

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I do not wish to move amendment (7). May I have your permission to proceed with amendment (8)?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEG 1111.

Sir, to give credit where credit is due, over the years the Social Welfare Department has been found to have provided a reasonable service, notwithstanding the low priority placed on services of a welfare nature. This is reflected by the fact that the expenditure on Social Welfare takes up only 0.24% of the Government's total Estimates of Expenditure for FY 76. The practice in the concept of the so-called welfare state, without considering the wider implications, economic and otherwise, has led to the downfall of many political leaderships in the world and in the process the financial bankruptcy of their countries. I am, therefore, all for careful spending on welfare services. But I have always felt that this is an area of government service where inadequate attention would appear to have been paid to the pooling of human resources and the better coordinated use of existing physical facilities. There would appear generally to be a reluctance between government departments to cooperate even in areas where the services provided by them are of a similar or complementary nature.

With a very young population as we have today, I can envisage an increasing need and demand for a counselling and advice service. Our young people need to be guided, but in many cases I do not think they know where or who to turn to. Up to this point of time, I believe that the Counselling and Advice Section is involved primarily in helping to settle matrimonial and other family squabbles of a petty nature. I do not think it concerns itself with problems of youths. Except for an office at Pearl's Hill, there are no other offices. I would suggest that the Counselling and Advice Section of the Social Welfare Department should get together with the People's Association and work out a scheme whereby the large staff and voluntary workers at the various community centres, after suitable training, may act as para-counsellors to offer counselling and advice to those who are in need of assistance, as part of a community service which these community centres are supposed to provide.

Sir, I notice that the Central Narcotics Bureau is stepping up its manpower presumably to tackle more energetically the serious problem of drug addiction. There is no doubt that an important aspect of their work will involve counselling and advice. There are other departments which are also involved in work of a similar or related nature and will have staff with relevant training and expertise, for example, the psychiatrist attached to the Ministry of Health. If we can pooI all these human and physical resources together and formulate a more comprehensive scheme in counselling and advice and with the support of the public by way of voluntary service, I feel sure that not only would we be able to offer better health to our young people but in the long run to contribute positively towards safeguarding the mental health of our public.

3.00 p.m.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, at the outset, on behalf of the Ministry. I must thank Hon. Members for their kind words.

The Ministry of Social Affairs' Counselling and Advice Section at present operates from the headquarters of the Social Welfare Department at Pearl's Hill. At its present location, it has been well accepted. Last year, 6,310 clients used the services of our Counselling and Advice Section, not only for marital disputes but also for other family disputes, pre-marital counselling, help in tracing missing people, disputes with neighbours and tenancy disputes.

It may be that there is a need, as the Member for Jalan Kayu has pointed out, for these services to be decentralised. In this connection, my Ministry has since 1st December, 1975 established a common intake unit which has the function of receiving all inquiries and requests for social welfare assistance. In December 1 975 alone, the common intake unit dealt with 574 cases which required short-term help and needed reference to other sections.

With the establishment of this unit, it has become possible to monitor the types of cases that are received, with a view to studying the trends of social welfare needs in Singapore. Information thus gathered will help to indicate not only whether there is a demand for decentralised counselling services but also the location for which the decentralised services should operate for maximum effect.

If a need is indicated, the Ministry will consider setting up decentralised services perhaps, as the Hon. Member has suggested, at community centres. This could take the form of area social welfare centres providing advisory information, counselling and referral services to people in the community centres. These centres would also utilise community resources in their operation. Volunteer counsellors and advisers could be engaged from within the community to man them, with expert assistance from a small number of professional social welfare staff.

With regard to the decentralisation of services and the utilisation of community resources, the Ministry of Social Affairs is launching the community probation service in two constituencies. The idea is to involve volunteer workers at neighbourhood level to counsel and assist probationers. If the scheme is successful, it will be extended to other constituencies.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I am very pleased with the reply. But may I just draw the attention of the House to the fact that there are altogether only 13 staff in the Counselling and Advice Section. If these 13 officers are the entire staff available to handle 6,000 cases during the course of the year, then I think we must make an award to each and every officer for the very high rate of productivity.

Sir, on that note, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R he reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BFA 1109.

Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to draw the attention of this House, and hopefully public attention and interest, to the hazards of fire breaking out in high-rise flats and buildings. While it is generally recognised by the Government that fires in such buildings could rapidly develop into disasters way beyond the fire-fighting capacity of the Fire department with inestimable loss to lives and property and certainly a real shokku to public confidence, I am disappointed, Sir, at the lack of positive action by the Government to prevent or to combat fires in high-rise flats and buildings.

The situation in Singapore today, where some 50% of the population are housed in Housing and Development Board flats, demands very urgent attention. The trend towards building higher and higher upwards, reaching out to embrace the heavenly bodies, must surely awaken planners to the dire consequences of a towering inferno.

Sir, large blocks of HDB flats are of 16 storeys and above and the present point-block flats are 25 storeys high. Further, private buildings vie for pride of place in the skies way up to 50 storeys. I understand that a 75-storey giant is well on the planning board.

We have been extremely lucky so far. The God of Fire has benevolently chosen to spare us the agony of its unholy visitation and its almighty fury. However, Sir, we cannot continue to sit back and just pray that our good luck will hold out. We have seen a mini disaster at Robinsons and we have read of awful fires in Seoul city, in Sao Paulo, Latin America, and other parts of the world where tens and sometimes even hundreds of lives were lost, people roasted to death and many more burnt out of all recognition. Let us take immediate steps and make immediate preparations now because tomorrow might be too late.

Sir, since the 1970s, buildings put up by private enterprises have to be provided with sprinklers and automatic heat detector systems before planning approval is granted. This is, of course, a very sound policy. However, I cannot understand why the Fire department should continue to grant approval to the HDB to erect gigantic structures, some of which house 500 units or more, without the minimum safeguard against fire. Some HDB flats do not even have a fire exit. It was most regrettable, Sir, that the HDB could publicly claim in the recent past that its flats are fire-safe and that these flats or units are so compartmentalised that fire will not spread from one unit to another. Surely we do not need a test case to make us realise that in case of fire the tenants can only pray for their lives.

It seems to me, therefore, that the Fire department takes a very partial attitude towards the HDB and this is, wittingly or unwittingly, at the expense of public safety. I would be most happy if the Hon. Minister could enlighten this House regarding the fire-fighting capacity of the Fire department, and to honestly reveal its inadequacies, and what steps are being taken by his Ministry to modernise the fire-fighting capability of the Fire department.

Further, may I plead with him to start a sustained intensive national campaign of public education through the schools, community centres, commercial enterprises, through the press, over radio and television, on the Dos and Don'ts of fire prevention and fire-fighting. Sir, may I ask the Hon. Minister to enlighten this House on the points I have raised.

The Minister for Social Affairs (Encik Othman Bin Wok): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Singapore Fire Brigade is aware of the problems involved in fighting fires in high-rise buildings. As early as 1960, the Fire Brigade had insisted that high-rise buildings be provided with built-in fire-fighting facilities and such other preventive measures as are necessary for the protection of lives and property. Also regular fire drills are held in high-rise buildings for members of the Brigade to familiarise themselves with the built-in fire protection facilities. In addition, inspections are also made by fire officers of all high-rise buildings to ensure that the fire protection facilities are in good working order.

The Fire Brigade will have no special difficulty in fighting a fire, say, on the 50th floor or above the 16th floor of a high-rise building provided the building, as I said, is equipped with adequate fire protection facilities such as fire lifts, wet rising mains and hose reels. When the Brigade was involved in making recommendations for fire prevention facilities in all buildings to ensure that adequate fire prevention measures were provided, stringent requirements were imposed on high-rise buildings, including the provision of automatic sprinklers and fire detectors, wet and dry rising mains. protected staircases for escape purposes, ventilated lobbies for internal fire fighting, fire lifts for use by firemen in emergencies, hose reels and extinguishers and the use of non-combustible building materials to control the spread of fire. Since 1st August, 1973, this function has been transferred to the Building Control Division of the Public Works Department. However. I believe that the high standards of fire prevention advocated by the Fire Brigade have been maintained through the Fire Precautionary Code which was prepared by the Building Control Division in consultation with the Singapore Fire Brigade.

Sir, fire-fighting in HDB flats would pose obvious problems to the Fire Brigade, especially if the fire occurs on the upper floors. Since HDB buildings do not have built-in facilities, fire hoses and other fire-fighting equipment have to be manually carried up to the affected floor level. The fire hose is then lowered down and connected to a fire pump in the fire engine. Such difficulties faced by the Fire Brigade could be minimised through the provision, and I say again, of rising mains, access ways for fire engines, fire lifts and fire resistant entrance doors to the flats in the HDB buildings. These provisions have been incorporated in the Safety Code of Practice which was prepared in consultation with the Fire Brigade.

Contingency plans have been drawn up for the Republic of Singapore Air Force Helicopter Squadron to assist the Fire Brigade in the event of an extreme need to rescue persons trapped on the rooftops of high-rise buildings. These plans include calling up of off-duty personnel and other essential supporting Government services. However, I must emphasise that aerial evacuation will only be used as a last resort in view of the great dangers involved In a high-rise fire, the occupants should be told to descend through protected staircases rather than ascend to the roof-top where heat and smoke and other conditions might make it impossible for rescue to be effected.

3.15 p.m.

The Member also raised the point of instilling in the public, particularly those occupying high-rise buildings, the consciousness of never to be careless and to prevent fire outbreaks. The Fire Brigade, in fact, is conducting several short courses in fire-fighting and fire prevention for occupants of high-rise buildings, industrial workers and members of the public. I hope more people will take advantage of such educationaI programmes so that collectively we car help to promote fire safety in the Republic.

As I say, while I am satisfied that the Fire Brigade is making good effort to meet the new challenges posed by high-rise buildings. I would like to point out that it is essential for the public to play their part in helping to prevent outbreaks of fire. Although high-rise buildings and residential flats may be equipped with adequate fire prevention measures, we must not forget that the contents of the building, such as furniture, carpets, curtains and other furnishings are usually highly combustible material. It is therefore necessary for the occupants of high-rise buildings to inculcate good habits to ensure that they do not cause fire through acts of carelessness and negligence.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I appreciate the efforts made by the Fire Brigade to ensure that we do not have a natural disaster. However, I must say that the steps which the Hon. Minister has just enumerated are still not sufficient. Certainly the improvements and the new ideas that they have got are far behind the pace of development that this country is going through. I suspect that it is really the Finance Ministry that dictates the Dos and Don'ts of his Fire department. Nevertheless I would plead with the Minister that the real problem here is to get across to the masses. To me, organising courses for a few hundred people to take part is simply insufficient. I suggest that he should think of a national campaign, a sustained effort, to reach out to each and every one, particularly to all those living in high-rise flats.

I was very happy that he was very honest in saying that the Housing and Development Board flats do not have sufficient facilities or safeguards against fire. This is a point that we need to stress to get across to the public that they do not have adequate facilities as of now and therefore they should constantly be vigilant. In my constituency, a fire broke out on the 9th floor just a few days ago. But it so happened that it broke out in the mid-afternoon when the tenants were in and the fire was put out on time. What would have happened if it had occurred in the middle of the night and the fire raging on? I do not relish the thought of a towering inferno in my constituency, and certainly not anywhere in Singapore too.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, just one point which I have forgotten to mention to the Member for Kim Seng. Every year we have what we call a "Fire Brigade Week". This is a national campaign. We are having one this year where, besides exhibitions, we have fire drills for the benefit of the people in the area in which the exhibition is staged for the whole week. I hope this year we will be able to hold one in Kim Seng constituency so that the people in his constituency will know how to fight a fire in a high-rise building.

In January last year we also formed a special team in the Fire department called Search and Rescue Squad, comprising 26 officers and men. These are the men who come to the rescue in case of a high-rise fire. Members of the Squad have completed their training, including a period of attachment to the Republic of Singapore's Air Force and the Commando Unit of the Defence Ministry. Their specialised training will enable them to carry out search and rescue work effectively in the event of a high-rise fire. The Brigade plans to expand the Squad and soon a second batch of fire officers will be selected to undergo similar training.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I am generally very satisfied with the Minister's explanation but with the simple proviso that the Minister should exploit all possible avenues to prevail upon the Housing and Development Board either through its chairman or, better still, through the Minister for National Development, if necessary take him out for lunch and persuade him that these are really necessary measures. In view of the explanation of the Hon. Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon

(10) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of item (m) of subhead AAA 3020.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng is not here. Amendment No. (11). Haji Mohd. Ariff Suradi.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 3020.

Sir, contributions by the Ministry of Social Affairs to the various welfare and charitable institutions are small indeed. I am sure it is difficult for the officials of these institutions to implement its training schemes with such meagre allocations. In a seminar on the retarded, the Minister for Social Affairs in his speech urged that the retarded should be given training to enable them to be usefully employed so as to bring them back to normal community life. In this respect the Minister urged upon the firms to offer jobs to these retarded people who have been suitably trained. But I do not know how these people can be given the necessary training if the allocation of moneys from the Ministry of Social Affairs is so small.

What is strange is that while the Minister has urged firms and private enterprises to employ these retarded people, the Government itself does not employ them. It has been found that those disabled people who have been trained for certain jobs have not been offered employment up to now. This matter has been referred to the Ministry of Labour, but only relief work has been given to them. It is therefore proper for the Minister for Social Affairs to urge all Government departments to give employment to the disabled. I wish to know whether the Minister will do so.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Sir, services for the disabled have in general been provided by voluntary welfare bodies with Government Support in the form of consultations, financial assistance, and the provision of teachers and instructors. The Government should not duplicate the good work that has been done and is being done by the various associations.

The associations operate a comprehensive range of facilities for the disabled, including welfare offices, a training centre, a residential institutional home, school, administrative offices and an appeals office. The Government will continue to provide assistance to associations and plans to work more closely with all voluntary welfare organisations for more effective service to the disadvantaged group in our society.

The Government and the voluntary welfare sector at present assist the disabled to rehabilitate themselves and to attain a productive and meaningful life. The Ministry of Labour, tile Social Welfare Department and some voluntary organisations provide employment placement service for the handicapped. The Social Welfare Department also maintains a register of all known disabled persons to assess their needs for employment and to facilitate their placement for jobs. The tour of factories for the disabled was to stimulate greater interest among employers in their employment of disabled persons.

It is important to involve the community in all efforts to help the disabled. Prejudice and ignorance should be overcome and society must be made to understand that the basic needs of the handicapped are similar to the needs of all other people. Indeed, one voluntary organisation has taken the initiative rightly by publishing a brochure on employment opportunities for the handicapped. The Social Welfare Department will improve its classification procedure so as to provide information of employable disabled persons and to assist disabled persons to remain in employment through intensive counselling before employment and follow-up services after job placement

In 1974 the Social Welfare Department cooperated with the Ministry of Finance on a survey of the employment of handicapped people in Government service. Arising from the survey, several grades of appointment to the Service were identified as suitable for handicapped persons. Government departments have been urged to employ more handicapped people wherever possible. There is a standing procedure whereby the Social Welfare Department will supply information on employable handicapped people to the Labour Exchange and the Special Committee in the Ministry of Labour. These handicapped people are then referred to the Department for employment whenever vacancies arise. At present there are 137 handicapped persons employed in Government and quasi-government bodies.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): Sir, how many disabled persons have been offered employment in the Government service?

Mr Chan Chee Song: 137 handicapped persons.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he can send the disabled persons to the community centres to do some light work such as cleaning and tidying up the centre, grass cutting, and so on? At the moment it seems that there is such a need. So I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he would consider giving these jobs to such people.

3.30 p.m.

Mr Chan Chee Song: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Member for Sembawang has raised the question of employing these disabled persons as gardeners in the community centres. This is within the jurisdiction of the People's Association, and I think it is more appropriate for them to answer.

As regards figures, I do not have them at hand and so I cannot answer his question.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): Could the Parliamentary Secretary provide me with a written reply at the next sitting?

Mr Chan Chee Song: Yes.

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): On that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement - Mr L. P. Rodrigo: Dr Chiang Hai Ding: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: (12) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 8201. Mr L. P. Rodrigo: Dr Chiang Hai Ding: (13) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 8301. Dr Ong Leong Boon: (14) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BBA 8101.

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo is not here. Dr Chiang.

Dr Chiang Hai Ding (Ulu Pandan): Sir, I am not moving.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon is not here. Amendment (13). Mr Rodrigo is not here. Dr Chiang.

Dr Chiang Hai Ding: I am also not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment (14), Dr Ong Leong Boon is not here.

The sum of $27,185,210 for Head R ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $5,179,700 for Head R ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates

Head S --

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy -

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004.

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy is not here.

The sum of $9,543,020 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $90,000,000 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head T --

The following amendment stood in the names of Messrs Lee Yiok Seng and P. Govindaswamy - (1) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004.

The Chairman: Mr Lee Yiok Seng is not here. Mr P. Govindaswamy is also not here. Amendment (2). Mr Teong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BGA 1111*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Hwang Soo Jin. Ho See Beng and Ho Kah Leong.)

Sir, under this subhead, I would like to raise three questions. The first matter concerns hawker inspectors. Their ill-temper and callous attitude in dealing with hawkers, such as issuing summons at random have caused many unpleasant incidents. Let me give an example. A distributor for aerated water in my constituency had come to me with a complaint. He said that one day when he was unloading some cases of aerated water from his lorry a hawker inspector approached and asked him for his identity card, saying that he had committed an offence. This aerated water agent then asked what offence he had committed. The hawker inspector said that he was conducting illegal hawking activity. The agent was taken aback and was at a loss to understand. He explained that he was an agent for aerated water and he was only unloading cases of aerated water and that he was not doing anything illegal. But the hawker inspector did not pursue the matter further to establish the truth or otherwise of the statement and simply issued a summons.

The distributor complained this to me and I forwarded the case to the Hawkers Department for an investigation. After careful investigation by the senior officials there, it was ascertained that this man was, in fact, an agent for aerated water. So the summons was withdrawn. This incident shows that if it were not for the slip-shod work of the hawker inspector, such trouble would not have happened and the time of the people concerned would not have been wasted, and unnecessary friction would not have been caused. I would like to ask the Minister to take note of this and to take the necessary steps to rectify the attitude of hawker inspectors.

The next question I would like to ask is whether the Minister will consider giving farmers a certain period of time to sell their produce, poultry and vegetables. This opportunity to sell will help their family livelihood to a small extent. These people are poor and if they can sell some of their vegetables or poultry, say, in the morning for a brief period, they will be able to make some money to assist their family budget. Would the Minister allow such a sale by the farmers?

The third question is in regard to the hawker centre to be built at Chong Pang village in Sembawang. When will it be built, and when will it be completed? How many stalls will be provided in this hawker centre? What are the items that will be sold? How many parking lots will be provided in the car park? I would like the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister to answer these questions.

The Chairman: Mr Hwang Soo Jin is not here. Mr Ho See Beng.

Mr Ho See Bong: Sir, the Hawkers Department does not seem to have any proper rules and regulations as to how and why a hawker's licence should or should not be revoked. The revocation of a hawker's licence often appears to be decided upon the whims and fancies of the Department without due regard to the fact that the licence is the hawker's rice bowl.

Sir, I refer to the incident involving a female hawker whose licence was cancelled on a very flimsy ground. It was alleged that this woman had sublet her stall for a fee because she was not physically present at her stall and an unauthorised person was seen conducting the business. But investigations showed that this unauthorised person was none other than the woman's husband. When she was questioned as to why she permitted an unauthorised person to conduct the business she explained that the man was her husband and he used to stand in for her whenever she was unwell. The hawker inspector was dissatisfied with the explanation and issued a notice, giving her seven days to reply, failing which her licence would be cancelled.

She came and sought my help and I wrote her a letter to see the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of the Environment. Sir, the Hon. Member for Bukit Timah. who is the Parliamentary Secretary concerned, wrote me a two-page letter that smacks of bureaucratic high-handedness, stating that he received information about hawkers abusing their licences by subletting them out for a fee. But his letter did not mention that this particular woman had indeed sublet her licence. There is no evidence to show that she had sublet her licence and it is ridiculous to revoke her licence because her husband helped her to conduct the business whenever she is unwell.

The revocation of her licence, Sir, has created considerable ill feeling against the Government among workers in my constituency. This is a crystal clear case that the Hawkers Department, having failed to make out a case against the hawker which had been based on mere suspicion, now tries to justify its unjustifiable action by saying that she is not in good health.

I submit, Sir, that unless the Hawkers Department can prove beyond any doubt that she had, in fact, sublet her licence for a fee the licence should be restored to the aggrieved woman. I would also urge the Hawkers Department to refrain in future from such arbitrary and high-handed action.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I agree to the points raised by the two Members, especially the Member for Sembawang. I would like to make one more point in regard to the attitude of hawker inspectors.

Sir, the hawkers have been a problem for a long time. Although we have built markets and hawker centres to accommodate the roadside hawkers, many areas are still congested with hawkers, simply because there are far more applicants for hawker stalls than accommodation permits. Handicapped people and some farmers also want to hawk, as there are not enough employment opportunities in factories and elsewhere. That is why they have to become hawkers, especially the older people who are too weak to do heavy work.

The attitude of some hawker inspectors towards unlicensed hawker is really deplorable. The people who witness such attitudes, especially foreigners who pass by here, will think that Singapore is a state of barbarism. The way these officials treat those unlicensed hawkers is really inhuman. The act of hacking and pulling down hawker stalls is really horrible to watch.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he is aware that those officials in the Hawkers Department have no consideration for other human beings. Do they have any sympathy or feeling for these poor people? I would like to ask whether it is the policy of the Hawker's Department to seize the goods of every unlicensed hawker they can pounce upon. And if that happens, do they tell the hawker concerned they will issue a receipt for all articles confiscated? Of course, some vegetables like towgay cannot be easily assessed and therefore it would be difficult to issue a receipt.

3.45 p.m.

However, valuable articles, like jade and other ornaments, if confiscated, should be accounted for by issue of receipts. Otherwise how can the Hawkers Department assure the general public that the hawker inspectors are all honest? How can the Department ensure that articles confiscated are not lost in the end? I would like the Minister to give an answer in this House.

The Minister for Law and the Environment (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, all the three Members of Parliament have made complaints against hawker inspectors, unlike some other Members who have spoken earlier in this debate that some of the hawkers are really well-off and are driving Mercedes Benzes and Jaguars.

However, these three Members now refer to the poor hawkers who, they allege, have been very badly treated by the hawker inspectors of the Ministry of the Environment. I am not saying that all hawkers are rich. Neither are all of them poor. Neither are all the hawker inspectors in the Hawkers Department bad. There may be a few who have overstepped the mark. But generally, unless there is proper enforcement, the hawkers will take over - obstruct five-foot ways, roads, and also serve dirty food. There must be enforcement. Sometimes such enforcement leads to very unpleasant incidents. Last year there were 21 such incidents. Two incidents were serious when hawker inspectors were assaulted by these "poor" stallholders and hawkers. I will tell this House about some of the incidents.

On 6th January, 1975 a hawker inspector was slashed with a fruit-cutting knife on the right side of the neck. He was warded in the hospital for ten days. In another incident on 20th February, 1975 an unlicensed hawker attempted to splash hot water on an inspector. He was stopped from doing so by Cisco guards. On 25th February 1975 empty bottles were thrown at our officers in a van, causing damage to the van. On 22nd March 1975 a hawker, armed with a meat chopper, charged at a party of hawker inspectors. A timely intervention by Cisco guards prevented any injury. On 11th October, 1975 three Public Health auxiliaries were assaulted by members of an unlicensed hawker's family. One of them suffered a head injury and was given four stitches at the Toa Payoh Hospital.

These are some of the many incidents which have taken place when hawker inspectors try to enforce what they are responsible for. But to each and every Member here. I say that it is difficult for me to reply in Parliament to any specific allegation or any specific case. If a Member has a complaint against a hawker inspector, he can send it to the Parliamentary Secretary, Ministry of the Environment. And if he does not give him any satisfactory answer, try the Minister.

Perhaps I should tell the Member for Sembawang that any person who sells goods in a market or public place without a licence is committing an offence. He mentioned that a summons was issued, but unfortunately he did not say what the summons was for, whether it was for obstruction or for hawking without a licence. All he said was that he had been to the Ministry to raise the matter on behalf of his constituent and the summons was withdrawn. That is a good Member of Parliament and a reasonable Ministry, and we have a satisfied constituent.

As for farmers selling their produce at market places. they cannot sell without a licence and, if they do, then the other stallholders there would get angry. Either they would block the place or they would say, "it is unfair competition". The Member is well aware that when unlicensed hawkers come along, whether or not they are farmers, there is bound to be trouble. There will be trouble between hawker inspectors and hawkers, and also trouble among the hawkers themselves and sometimes we have to intercede.

The Member was asking for details about Canberra Food Centre in his constituency. He will be pleased to know that tenders have been called and construction work is expected to start sometime ii April. Sewerage work has already commenced. The centre is expected to be completed in early 1977. The centre will have 271 stalls consisting of 164 market produce stalls. 35 piece and sundry goods stalls and 72 cooked food stalls. The project is estimated to cost $1.7 million and will house some of the Street hawkers in the area. Before I pass on, perhaps I should mention that, without being personal in any way, the Member for Sembawang was at one time attached to the Hawkers Department.

The Member for Bras Basah has grumbled about the lack of rules and procedures for the revocation of licences. I would like to assure him that the officers of the Hawkers Department do not cancel licences without justification. They have to act w thin the framework of the existing law, departmental policies and procedures. Hawker licences may be cancelled for various reasons, such as non-payment of licence fees, which is very essential; and flouting the law continuously or subletting of stalls or pitches. Licences may also be cancelled for allowing unauthorised persons to conduct business at the stalls or pitches. The decision to cancel is only taken after careful consideration. The hawker is given an opportunity to explain why his licence should not be cancelled, and the licence is revoked only when no satisfactory reasons can be given. I think the Member is well aware that a hawker can appeal, first to the Parliamentary Secretary for the re-instatement of his licence, and ultimately to the Minister in charge.

The Member for Bras Basah has mentioned one particular case where the husband was doing work for the wife who was the licence holder. That is his side of the story. There was no such evidence. But, as I have said, this is not the place nor is it the time for us to argue on particular cases. They are better dealt with in the Ministry. He says that the hawkers in his constituency are fed up. The licences of six hawkers in Bras Basah constituency were revoked because it was found that instead of conducting their business they had allowed unauthorised persons, including non-citizens, to conduct their business at their stalls at Malabar Street. Three of the six hawkers eventually surrendered their licences. The remaining three hawkers appealed for the return of their licences. Two ~f the appeals were granted, and the third was rejected.

I think the Member for Jurong felt sore when one of his constituents, who was doing business without a licence, had some of his jades confiscated. He has appealed to me but I could not allow the appeal. The matter was taken out of my hands. Where valuable property, like jade, has been confiscated, the matter is thrashed out in court, and since the Magistrate has made an order of forfeiture the Minister cannot intervene.

He has also mentioned the question of receipts. Sometimes when goods are being seized, everybody around is running hurry-scurry, and in a situation like this it is difficult to issue receipts. But he has made a good point .- when valuable property like jade is confiscated, if there is an opportunity, a receipt should be handed over immediately. If it is not given immediately, then it should be given as soon as the hawker inspector, who has seized the jade, has returned to base. But so far we have not issued receipts. I understand from the Hawkers Department that it is not feasible, but I think there must be cases where if valuable jewellery or property is seized then a receipt must be issued. I thank the Member for his suggestion. and assure him that this matter will be given every consideration.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment (Mr Chor Yeok Eng): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Bras Basah has made certain criticisms against my department just now, and although my Minister has replied to him I would like to supplement his answer.

On the question of revocation of licence of a hawker in his constituency. I would say that what he has said is far from correct. The position is that the hawker first sublet his stall to another person. Later someone else offered a higher price for that stall. This stallholder quite naturally let out his stall to the second person who offered a higher price. The first "sub-tenant" then complained to the Hawkers Department saying that the licensed stallholder possessed as many as seven licences, most of which were hired out to others, including non-citizens just as the Minister has pointed out.

4.00 p.m.

Sir, as regards the case of the woman hawker whose husband was issued a summons, we have established the fact that someone else was renting the stall from this woman hawker. On receiving a complaint, we sent some hawker inspectors out to keep surveillance of the activities of this unauthorised hawker as well as the woman hawker. Surveillance was kept for nearly a month before we found out the truth that this woman hawker actually did sublet her stall to someone. As is usually the case, when the hawker inspector turned up one evening and issued a summons to the unauthorised hawker, the husband of this woman hawker popped out and argued that in the day the stall was under his management, while at night it was managed by his wife. However, our hawker inspectors knew the situation well enough and knew what was going on. So they issued this unauthorised hawker with a summons.

Then the Member helped to appeal against our decision. We wrote back to explain in detail why we had dealt with this case in the manner that we did, i.e, some of the licences of this family were rescinded, but the husband still kept his licence. The Member argued that our attitude had not been correct and that we had been treating the matter unfairly. In fact, the husband of that woman hawker is still there hawking. So if the Member concerned wants more details. I can supply him with more details later on. If the Member so desires, I would present the details in this Chamber.

Mr Ho See Bong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I believe you remember the saying that officials will always cover up for the acts of other officers. Of course, the hawker inspector concerned in reporting to the Senior Parliamentary Secretary would have given his side of the story, and the Parliamentary Secretary would of course listen to him. We can say that the years 1 974 and 1 975 were the years of the hawker. They found it profitable to be hawkers. So why should they sublet their stalls to someone else? Moreover, the Hawkers Department does not have rules stipulating that the hawkers are not allowed to employ or engage assistants. Therefore, once they find anyone at the stall who is not the rightful holder of the licence, they jump to the conclusion that the licensee has been subletting his stall. What kind of reasoning is this? This is very wrong. This is not the way to treat the people.

Further the Senior Parliamentary Secretary said that the licence of this woman's husband is still valid and that she is able to carry on with her business. I am not arguing for the husband, but the case of this woman hawker. So it seems that the Senior Parliamentary Secretary does not know the true picture of the whole problem. He was talking through his hat. The woman hawker's licence has been rescinded. But the Parliamentary Secretary has not replied to my question. It shows that he does not know the situation well. He says that the woman hawker had sublet her stall. Where is the proof? Show me the evidence. Otherwise he should give her a chance and not just conveniently cancel her licence.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think that the Member has not been listening to me at all. I have said that these people claimed that the stall was managed in this way: in the day time the business is conducted by the husband, while in the night the wife takes over. But according to our observations for one whole month, in the evenings the wife was not there at all. Instead, two other people, one of whom is a non citizen, were found working at that stall. If that is not subletting to someone else, how is it that for the whole period of one month the wife was never there in the evenings? So this is very clear evidence to show that someone else had been renting the stall.

I would like to stress that the Government is subsidising the hawker stalls. So we must be strict as well as careful in seeing that each family can own only one stall in a hawker centre because of the subsidy. I would like to give an example. I hope the Member s not so naive as to think that the hawkers would prefer to rent private stalls at $200 ~o $500 each per month in private coffee shops. Stalls in Government hawker centres are not rented out. Hawkers are charged licence fees and the licence fee for a cooked food stall is $50 p.m, for both day and night sessions, and for other stalls the rate varies and it averages about $30 p.m. per stall. If the Member says that our action has been wrong, I will give another illustration. In the case mentioned just now about the woman hawker, her daughter is working as a cashier in her own eating shop. If this woman is not working in her own eating shop, then where can she be? How could she be working at the hawker stall at the same time? Is that not subletting? So I hope the Member would take note of this. The Government provides stalls to the hawkers for them to make a living, not for somebody else to make unfair profit out of it.

Mr Ho See Bong: Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned something more than what I have said. I think I need a reply very badly because he has mentioned somebody else. It has got nothing to do with the cancellation of this hawker's licence.

The Chairman: That point has been taken. Mr Ho. I think further discussion of this, if necessary, should be held in the common room.

Mr Ho See Beng: I accept that, Sir.

Mr Barker: Sir, I do not understand Mandarin but this debate is gathering heat, but, I hope in good spirit. However, this is not the time nor the place to judge any one specific case. We cannot do that. I think we should do it outside, either in the Ministry or, if we cannot come to agreement, in the courts. But debating the hawker's point of view or the inspector's point of view here will get us nowhere and we cannot come to any conclusion.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like the Minister to pay attention to what I am going to say. He himself has admitted that some of the hawker inspectors on their beat duties have been quite ill-mannered, unlike our Minister whose attitude is very proper and good. So they should learn from our Minister not to be so ill-mannered in their dealings with the public.

Sir, in view of the fact that I am satisfied with the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement - Mr L.P. Rodrigo: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 2310. Mr Ng Kah Ting: (4) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BBA 2110. Mr L.P. Rodrigo: (5) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead BBA 2190. Haji Mohd Ariff bin Suradi: (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BGA 8101.

The Chairman: As Mr Rodrigo, Mr Ng Kah Ting and Haji Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi are not here, we will go on to amendment (7). Mr P. Govindaswamy.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CBA 8103.

Sir, the recent drought which we experienced seems to be the worst in the last hundred years, so much so that our green environment has turned to brown patches of dead turf and leaves. Our water stocks at the reservoirs have also dropped tremendously. Once again we have to launch our "Save Water and Don't Waste Water" Campaign.

Sometime ago I was told that a feasibility study would be carried out for the building of a reservoir at the Bedok Cut Site to find out whether the soil would hold water. The construction of a reservoir would depend upon the results of the study and the soil test. May I know what is the position of the study at the moment? What has been the result of the soil test so far? What is the progress of the work at the Bedok Cut Site? Have the contractors completed the job as scheduled, so that a reservoir can be built to supplement the water stocks of the other existing reservoirs?

Sir, I understand that by using the boring system at the seaside, most probably we could get water. I do not know whether the Ministry of the Environment has looked into this. If not, I would suggest to the Minister to try out this system at the seaside, because I know that in other countries this boring system has been used to get water. Singapore is a very small island. We have tall buildings and most probably the boring system is not feasible or dangerous. Could the Minister enlighten the House? We should try to use this boring system to get water. Instead of water, most probably we might get oil. Who knows!

Mr Barker: Sir, the Hon. Member would have done better if he had directed his remarks to the man-in-charge who happens to be the Minister for National Development and Communications and the Chairman of the Public Utilities Board. But since he mentioned oil, I myself am interested tool

Sir, the soil at Bedok can hold water but there is not much water to be collected. It is suitable for a storage reservoir but the catchment is small and, therefore, the quantity of water that can be tapped will not be very significant. The Bedok area, in fact, is an urban catchment area and the runoff water is very polluted, especially during dry weather. However, the Public Utilities Board is studying this problem. For the time being, the project has been deferred. I understand that the reliable yield is about 23,000 cubic metres or 5 million gallons per day.

4.15 p.m.

As for boring, there have been studies to show that there may be water right down under Singapore, but it is a costly process and nobody has been able to bore that far down. Anyway, not yet but one day we will come to that. If we strike oil, let us hope that it is not in the Straits of Malacca but in the Straits of Singapore.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: In view of the explanation from the Minister. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Haji Mohd Ariff bin Suradi

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CBA 8109.

The Chairman: Haji Mohd. Ariff is not here.

The sum of $88,009,390 for Head T ordered to stand part of time Main Estimates.

The sum of $109,135,000 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head U --

The Chairman: Head U - Ministry of Home Affairs. Amendment (1)*. Mr Ang is not here. Mr Ho.

Mr Ho See Bong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ang Nam Piau)

Sir, I wish to draw attention to a grave social problem that has been receiving widespread coverage in recent weeks. I refer to the problem of the Singapore sex fiend, if I may so term it. The activities of the sex fiend have been truly alarming of late, so much so that it has already been suggested in the House that severe penalties be instituted to help check the increasing number of sex crimes in the Republic. Little girls of three years to 1 2 years old have fallen victim to sex fiends in recent weeks, and parents are understandably gravely concerned over the safety of their children, any one of whom could become the next victim so long as these monstrous criminals are still at large.

We do not deny that our Police Force is efficient in the apprehension of these and other types of criminals, but what I want to point out today is the fact that no useful purpose will have been served if these sex criminals are caught and sentenced to short terms of imprisonment. Once they a-e out of jail they will be on the prowl again in next to no time.

It has been contended that the solution to this evil lies in appropriate rehabilitation and education. This is as the case may be, but it is a point of opinion open to debate. I would like to remind those who are predisposed to magnanimity to criminals of the tragedy of our Prison-without-gates at Pulau Senang. The sad incident of Pulau Senang may be an isolated one, but it has proved that penal servitude and education cannot always effectively change criminal nature. It may sometimes be necessary in dealing with brutal human beings to adopt a tooth for a tooth principle, as in the pre-Christian era.

I recall reading a book called the East West Han, in which was narrated an incident relating to Liu Pang, the first Emperor of the Han Dynasty. When Liu Pang dethroned Si Huang Ti of the Ching Dynasty, he felt that the laws existing then were very harsh and needed to be changed. So he consulted his subjects and changed the laws, which afforded the Han Dynasty to rule over China for over four hundred years.

To draw a parallel, we in Singapore inherited the system of laws when we took over from the British. But in our context, Sir, these British laws have proved to be as effective as paper tigers in dealing with our problems of law and order. I suggest that it is high time these laws were updated to enable us to deal with offenders successfully. In this respect I would like to have the view of the Minister for Home Affairs and Education as to whether or not he thinks that our existing laws are adequate and need not be changed in the present Singapore context.

If we study the sex crime patterns in other countries, we will realise that it is a phenomenon connected with social change, urbanisation and industrialisation. It is only rational to expect, therefore, that as a country grows and changes, its legislation keeps apace. It might be profitable perhaps in this respect to study the situation in other countries in order to formulate our own method and principle of coping with new criminal forces that threaten to attack and undermine our hard-won progress.

Singapore can feel justifiably proud that it has achieved the highest per capita income, second only to Japan in South-east Asia. But this is no consolation if at the same time there is no happiness and peace of mind for our people. Truly it has been said that man cannot live on bread alone and that material advancement without spiritual insight is like a bird with a wing. Side by side with improved legislation we should seek to institute authentic research into the social problems of our time. Social research will give us a better understanding of the real causes of the patterns of crime in our society and will help us to formulate a list of safeguards and deterrents of real practical value.

So, as a short-term measure, I submit respectfully, Sir, that though we may need to hit the Singapore sex maniac hard, as a long term measure we should institute sociological research into disturbed behaviour patterns arising out of rapid social and economic changes. Only then will we be able to adopt effective preventive measures instead of relying solely on harsh deterrents and punitive measures.

Encik Abdul Aziz Karim (Kallang): Sir, I would like to question the Minister for Home Affairs, and Education regarding the Government's policy on crime and punishment, especially in regard to sex crimes. Every time a rape takes place, every decent person is shocked and shocked to the extreme if the victim is a young child. We are overcome with anger if naked violence is used on the victim. Even if no violence is used on the victim, the heinousness of the crime is not lessened. Imagine the pain and suffering the victim has to bear. When a victim of rape is bound and gagged in a secluded place or in similar environment and is left to languish and die, the brutality of the crime should fall within the definition of murder and warrants the imposition of the death sentence. I wonder if the Minister for Home Affairs and Education is of the view that the relevant sections of the Penal Code need to be reviewed, in view of what I said.

Sex offences I believe are on the increase. We know that in a number of cases the victims were young girls. I hold a strong view that sex offenders should be more severely punished. I am of the view that corporal punishment and life imprisonment without remission of sentence should be meted out on violent and dangerous sex offenders and the death sentence should be mandatorily imposed on offenders who have caused the death of the victim by whatever criminal act, including the act of criminal negligence.

The Minister for Home Affairs and Education (Mr Chua Sian Chin): Sir, I am glad that the Member for Bras Basah and the Member for Kallang have brought up this matter of increasing sex offences being committed in Singapore, as it gives me the opportunity to inform the House of the matters which the Ministry of Home Affairs is considering at the moment with regard to dealing with such offences. I am glad that the Members for Bras Basah and Kallang are in support of deterrent sentences against such offenders.

Let me first refer to the address by the Member for Bras Basah. He said that since we have taken over control of Singapore from the British colonial authorities, those British laws should be amended from time to time in order to cope with the social and economic development of the Republic. May I say that since we took over, many new laws have been enacted and old laws amended to make them more adequate to deal with criminals in accordance with the changes in our way of life and social development. However, I do not think we want to legislate to the extent of becoming tyrannical as with the Ching Dynasty's pattern of rule, as suggested by the Member for Bras Basah.

Mr Ho See Bong: Sir, on a point of clarification. I did not say that we should follow the tyrannical law of the Ching Dynasty. I said that the first Emperor of the Han Dynasty felt that the law was too harsh. So he consulted his subjects and changed the law. I did not suggest that we should follow his tyrannical law.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: I am glad that the Member for Bras Basah has clarified.

Coming to the specifics, in the case of sex offenders the maximum punishment under our law is imprisonment for life. In addition, offenders shall also be liable to fine or caning. Persons guilty of outraging modesty are punishable with imprisonment of up to two years, or with fine, or with caning, or with any two of such punishments. Caning is, however, not mandatory. Punishment is at the discretion of the court, according to the circumstances of each case.

Our statistics show that the number of reported rape cases in 1975 was 59 as compared to 76 in 1974. This represents a 22% decrease, contrary to popular opinion. Outraging of modesty cases, however, increased from 172 in 1974 to 239 in 1975. It is, however, debatable whether sex offenders are actually on the increase or because the victims are now more willing to come forward to report such offences. However, the Police are extremely concerned over the situation and are monitoring the situation very carefully.

4.30 p.m.

A review of the legislation pertaining to these offences is now being undertaken. If necessary, enhanced punishment including mandatory caning may be introduced for rape offences. I note that the Hon. Member for Bukit Ho Swee has suggested that rapists should be castrated (*Hansard, 15th March, 1976, col. 282.) When recommending amendments to the law on rape, I do not think we should go so far as to adopt the suggestion of the Member for Bukit Ho Swee, or even propose capital punishment as suggested by the Member for Kallang. However, Sir, we are seriously studying certain legislation which is in force in one or two states in the United States whereby a convicted rapist can opt for voluntary axe-sexualisation or castration in lieu of sentence of a long term of imprisonment. This law is based on the medical grounds that the only cure for a compulsive rapist is voluntary axe-sexualisation.

Apart from deterrent sentences I would like to stress the importance of preventive measures and early detection. For this year there are, to-date, 1 5 cases of rape and 47 cases of outraging of modesty. In 10 out of the 1 5 cases of rape the offender is known to the victim. In the cases of outraging of modesty five of the offenders are known to the victim. In 1975, cases where the offender is known to the victim number 36 out of 59 cases of rape, and 14 out of 239 cases of outraging of modesty. These figures are sufficient to show that a very high proportion of offences, in particular, rape, could have been avoided or prevented if the victims had been more careful.

This brings me to the point that the public have a very important role to play in stamping out or at least minimising these offences. They have been constantly reminded to be wary of strangers and to avoid dark or lonely places. Parents have also been advised that they should always make sure that responsible persons accompany their children to and from school and on outings, and to instil in their children the evils of tempting offers of sweets, toys or other little worldly things. Regrettably, the recent spate of rape cases and outraging of modesty has given me cause to believe that some members of the public have not taken such advice seriously.

The rate of detection of sex offences is low. Over the last two years this averages 35% for rape and 45% for outraging of modesty. Police investigations have been hampered by the skimpy description of offenders in most cases. Another serious setback is the absence of eye witnesses or the reluctance of witnesses to come forward to give information to the Police. In the recent cases the Police have to painstakingly piece together bits and pieces of information obtained from the young victims before a composite picture could be drawn up. This was passed on to the press and television, which have been very helpful, to appeal to the public to come forward if they have any information. I am informed that the response has been most encouraging.

On their part, the Police, with the support of the national servicemen in the Special Constabulary and the Community Security Force, will intensify patrols in the crime prone or rape prone areas. But to what extent they can be successful in all these will depend very much on the cooperation of the public.

Mr Ho See Bong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Chin Harn Tong (Aljunied): (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1105*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy.)

Sir, over the past few years although there has been some improvement in various aspects of the Police Force, certain serious problems still exist. I feel that if the Police want to give a good impression to the public, these problems, so long as they exist, will give them a poor image. I am referring to the very serious practice of Police officers covering up the wrongs of other Police officers. If a Police officer has committed an offence, the other officers in charge would not try to rectify the wrong but instead try to cover up for him. How are you going to improve the efficiency of the Police and give a good impression to the people if you do not rectify the errors and weed out evil doers? These acts of covering up the wrong doings of Police officers can be illustrated by the instances that I am going to quote.

Sir, a member of the public met with a road accident involving a Police officer. Both sides started an argument. In the end, the policeman resorted to violence. The other party then wrote a complaint to the Police Commissioner. The Police Authority, wanting to cut the matter short, replied that there was no evidence to show that the Police officer had resorted to violence against any member of the public. The same letter also stated that the Police officer concerned had been warned to constrain his behaviour in future. How contradictory is that? If the complainant had no evidence on the one hand and the Police officer did nothing wrong on the other, then why warn him? In reality, knowing it full well, and arising out of the desire to cover up a fellow officer's wrongdoings, such a letter was devised. Have they ever realised that such a letter would give rise to very unfavourable impression among the members of the public?

Sir, the attitude of the Police in dealing with members of the public has very often resulted in dissatisfaction among the public. Some Police officers are not willing to do their duty. Not only they do not try to help the public in dealing with their complaints but will resort to do something that will adversely affect the interest of the complainants.

Recently, there have been newspaper reports of increasing cases of molestation and rape. To curb this increase, the Police should have appealed to the public for cooperation. Let us see the attitude of the Police towards the public in dealing with such cases: A girl was molested and she reported this to the Police. Even the person who committed this offence was also brought to the Police station and yet the Police persuaded the girl not to lodge an official report and told her to just forget about the matter as it would cause her great inconvenience. This incident shows how some Police officers can go to such lengths to shirk their responsibility as to try to cover up the offender by dissuading the victim from complaining. How then can these crimes be curbed?

In another case a member of the public reported to the Police about a breach of trust involving some loss of cash, but the Police officer concerned not only did not help but grumbled that since the amount of loss involved was so small, being a few hundred dollars, why should the complainant report such a trivial loss. We understand that the loss of cash due to breach of trust is a serious offence according to the law. Where does the law stipulate that only when the loss involved is of a larger amount then it will become a breach of trust to take any action in respect of it? In principle, there is no reason to reject such a complaint. Sir, this attitude on the part of the Police will not only discourage the public but also encourage more offences to be committed. This attitude should not be tolerated at all.

Sir, there was another case when a member of the public was assaulted and had to be sent to the hospital to be stitched up. He also reported to the Police but they only tried to evade their duty by getting both parties together and blaming them and warning them for causing so much trouble to the Police. This kind of treatment, the victim felt, was another psychological blow to him in addition to the physical injury he had suffered. The way the Police deal with public complaints can only antagonise the public against the Police.

Sir, what is more serious, where complaints have been lodged to the Police, they tried to avoid trouble by disclosing the names and addresses of complainants to the accused persons, which is against normal procedure, in the hope that both parties would resolve the matter between themselves. Such a practice is likely to deter persons from making complaints to the Police and may even result in some danger to the complainants. From these incidents, we can see that there are many serious problems existing in the Police Force.

Very often we hear of appeals by the Police for cooperation from the public. However, I feel that they should first look into themselves and try to improve their own attitude and sense of responsibility in relation to their manner of discharging their duties. Only on this basis, can they give a better image to the public so that the public will have more confidence in them to come forward to cooperate with them.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, before I could raise my questions the Minister seemed to have replied to them. Anyway, I have to raise my points.

The Chairman: Are you going to repeat them, Mr Govindaswamy?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes, but there are certain very important points

The Chairman: Is there any reason for you to repeat?

4.45 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I will not repeat, but I will give examples to make my point.

Sir, the Police Force has been very successful in combating crime in Singapore. The inception of the Vigilante Corps has also strengthened the Police Force and, as a result, the citizens feel a bit secured. It is evident that the higher penalties introduced in the past for some offences had in a way lessened the major crimes being committed. However, of late there has been an increase in the number of cases of molestation and rape, so much so that in some housing estates women and children are afraid to move about alone.

The number of sex crimes reported to the Police is only a small proportion of the actual crimes committed. Many cases are not reported, as the victims are afraid of the publicity given to the cases when they come up for mention. Incidentally, the other day it was reported that an all-women firing squad executed 17 Cuban soldiers convicted of rape and murder in war-torn Angola. It seems that the women who were raped identified five of the 17 captured Cubans as their violators. The firing squad was composed entirely of women. The Cubans were shot with their own guns. That is only an example. In Singapore it is time that severe penalties were introduced to curb the growing number of sex offences.

Sir, I would like to congratulate the CID Organised Crime Branch for having successfully curbed the crime syndicates. We have seen a number of known criminals tracked and brought to book. This is a good sign. This Police Crime Branch has done a wonderful job. They ought to be complimented.

Sir, nowadays criminals have become sophisticated not only in organising crimes but also in the commission of crime, thanks to our TV shows. Programmes like Hawaii Five-O, Ironside. Cannon, Police Woman, etc, have in a way educated them. They also seem to have up-to-date equipment and weapons for their operations, some of which may be better than the ones used by the Police. What has our Police Force done in respect of dealing with this new type of equipment used by these criminals? Are there any funds allocated for the Police Force to purchase sophisticated and scientific equipment to fight sophisticated criminals? What scientific and modern equipment does the Police Force have at present to fight this new type of crime? What about using helicopters? Last year I also mentioned about helicopters. Has the Police Force thought of all these? Are there any plans or provisions made to purchase scientific and modern equipment for our Police Force? In America, Police cans are equipped with minicomputers for easy identification of criminals, infra-red equipment, laser guns, etc. Is our Police Force one step ahead or is it hoping that the criminals will not be that sophisticated? Are our patrol cars well-equipped with modern equipment?

On the subject of Police transport, how many Police vehicles are there? We find that some "bone shakers" are still being used by the Police for transport. Is there any provision to improve this?

Sir, I am glad that some of the Police stations are going to be resited with their construction based on modern architecture. Some stations are also being renovated. But then there are other Police stations which are very old. It is high time. they were demolished and replaced with new ones. For instance, the Paya Lebar Police Station is so old that it is still dependent on the bucket system of sanitation. Are there any plans to renovate all the Police stations, including the CID building?

Finally, we still have in our midst a good number of secret societies threatening our citizens with extortion, etc. May I know how many cases of extortion have been reported to the Police during last year? It is time that these parasites of society were wiped out from our country. We cannot tolerate secret societies in our midst. Their members are unemployed and believe in getting everything through intimidation and murder.

Mr Ivan Baptist (Potong Pasir): Mr Speaker, Sir, I believe babies and children are flowers of our land. With Government policy to limit population growth, their worth to us is all the more enhanced. Even then, Sir, the Ministry blemishes them by disallowing their registration in the names of their fathers when they are born out of wedlock despite the willingness of their parents to have them so registered. Punishing innocent children this way is not becoming of a wise and forth right government. Imagine the unfortunate babies growing into adolescents with the scar of illegitimacy clearly printed on their birth certificates which need to be produced at various important periods of their lives; for example, registration at schools, registration at marriage, and so on. When will the Ministry be humane enough to amend this regulation?

The Chairman: Is the Commissioner of Police responsible for this?

Mr Ivan Baptist: This is administration, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I first deal with the Member for Potong Pasir? Since he has chosen to bring up his point under the subhead "Commissioner of Police", my answer is that the Commissioner of Police is not in charge of either registering or deregistering illegitimate children.

May I now deal with the points raised by the Member for Aljunied. I am very glad that he has brought up these points in this House, particularly the complaints about the Police Force. It gives me an opportunity to put the issue of these complaints in its proper perspective. We do get criticisms now and again. The Member for Anson, on the other hand, has given praise to the Police Force. It is not often that the Member for Anson gives praise instead of criticism in debating the Budget.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Praising only the CID and not the Police Force.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: In any case, the Member for Anson has praised the CID. He has also mentioned about the drop in the crime rate, which I shall deal with later.

Coming back to the Member for Aljunied, my only regret is that he has not brought to my attention by writing to me earlier of the specific cases which he has mentioned. I would have had the matter looked into and action would have been taken against the offending Police officers if they were found guilty.

I would like to reiterate here that there are always two sides to a story. To be fair, the matter must be investigated impartially and with an open mind. It is unfair to jump to conclusions one way or the other until the full facts have been established. To ensure impartiality, the procedure laid down is that every complaint against a Police officer is investigated by a senior officer from a Police division or unit other than the one in which the officer is attached. The investigation papers are then scrutinised by the respective Commanding Officers and the Ministry of Home Affairs where the complaint is brought to the attention of the Ministry. If an offence is disclosed, the officer is put on a departmental charge and his case will be heard before an independent board of inquiry or even prosecuted in court. On the other hand, if the allegation is not substantiated, no action, of course, can be taken, but the complainant will be informed of it.

However, there may be cases where although a complaint has not been substantiated, in the course of the investigation it was found that the complaint could have been prevented or avoided if the officer had been more tactful, polite and use his commonsense. In such a case the officer would be warned to be more tactful and polite in his future dealings with members of the public. This may have been the case with the reply from the Police to wh'ch the Member has referred in his speech. In a case where a reply given by the Police is that the complaint is unsubstantiated, the complainant can, if he is not satisfied and, in fact, suspects a cover-up by the Police, further complain to his Memoer of Parliament, or write a letter to the Minister, or complain to the CPIB. The procedure in the investigation of complaints is thus not only impartial but has the necessary checks to ensure impartiality. I do not think, therefore, it is fair to make a general allegation that Police officers will always protect their own kind. There are sufficient checks and very heavy penalties for those who may be foolish enough to do so. A Police officer with years of service and on the pensionable establishment will have much to lose if he does so.

There will always be complaints against Police officers. The important thing to bear in mind is that each and every case is investigated and action taken. By the nature of their job. Police officers often come in contact and deal with criminals and antisocial elements in our society. Thus, some complaints against police officers were genuine and well founded. But quite a number of them were found to be unfounded, in fact, even malicious or exaggerated. The record bears this out. In 1975, a total of 314 complaints were received from the public against Police officers. Forty-two of the complaints are still under investigation. Of the remaining 272 complaints, only 40 cases or less, that is, 1 5%, were substantiated. Out of these 40 cases 20 were for minor infringements and departmental disciplinary action was taken against the officers. This action resulted in three officers being dismissed from the Police Force.

5.00 p.m.

The Member did raise a point that when the members of the public complained about any criminal offence being committed against him or her, such complaints were not held with the confidentiality that they deserve. It happened sometimes that a complaint came to the notice of the accused or the person against whom the complaint was made. Let me clarify to this House about this question of confidentiality of complaints and information given to the Police. With regard to a report lodged with the Police, it is usually done at a Police station. This is an open document and the accused person mentioned in the report has the legal right to obtain a copy of the report on payment of the requisite fee. In the circumstances, an accused person must necessarily become aware of the complaint made against him. Perhaps this explains the case which the Hon. Member has mentioned.

Mr Chin Harn Tong: (In Mandarin): Sir, what the Minister has said about information being disclosed to the accused person is to side-track the issue, I wish to clarify that I have brought up only some of the many cases I know and that the information had not been disclosed in accordance with the normal procedure where a copy of the report could be obtained by the accused as mentioned by the Minister. If the Minister had listened carefully, he would know that I was referring to the specific cases where the officers concerned released information about the complainant's name and address to the accused person in an unofficial manner. The Minister did not seem to understand what I was saying just now.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member had given me the particulars earlier, I could have given a fuller explanation. But the point I am making is that if a complaint is lodged against so-and-so, it is an open report and is not confidential. It can be made available to the accused person on payment of a fee. However, when members of the public give information to the Police on suspicious persons or activities of suspected criminals, etc., the source and identity of the persons giving such information are always treated with the strictest confidence. Such information is treated as intelligence and classified as secret and will not be revealed to any member of the public, much less the accused. If this case which the Member for Aljunied has cited falls within the second category, and if the information given is revealed to members of the public, then it is a very serious offence and the officer responsible has committed an offence.

Sir, the other matter raised is about loss of cash and the allegation that the Police officer has said, "This is a small matter. It should be settled mutually." Whatever report or complaint that has been made by a member of the public against another member of the public and an offence has been disclosed, the Police will and must investigate it. If they do not, then they are failing in their duty. I would like the Member for Aljunied to bring this matter up to me so that it can be investigated and if it is substantiated that the officer has contravened the procedure, he will be dealt with.

Turning to the Member for Anson, he said, that it is as a result of Police action - I hope he said that - that the crime rate has declined. That is true because the figures will show that. As compared to 1974, robberies in 1 975 dropped by 23%; housebreaking and theft by 4%; theft of motor vehicles by 21% and other thefts by 7.3%. As far as his comments on sex offences are concerned, I will not repeat what I have stated just now. But may I say again that we will not hesitate to seek a mandate from this House to introduce more severe penalties if these are found necessary. However, I can assure this House that the proposal will certainly not be as drastic as that in Angola where an all-women firing squad executed the rapists.

Sir, with regard to Police stations, may I say that except for Queenstown Police Station which was built only in 1963, all the old stations will be phased out and replaced. The new Police stations will not only be built along new lines in architecture but will also be geared towards greater operational efficiency and will provide a more congenial working environment to both the Police officers as well as the public who have occasion to visit the station.

The construction of Toa Payoh Police Station has begun and is expected to be completed some time in 1977. The new site of the Orchard Police Station is at Napier Road, and there is also the new Jurong Police Station. The construction of these two Police stations will start as soon as funds are released.

With regard to the Paya Lebar Police Station, we have decided to resite it in Ang Mo Kio because it is envisaged that Ang Mo Kio will have a larger concentration of population, but this move will only be taken in about three years' time at the earliest. In the meantime, consideration is being given to renovate the present Paya Lebar Police Station and to install modern sanitation.

As for the CID building, there is no plan to move the CID for the present. There is a plan to move the CID to the proposed Ministry of Home Affairs and Police complex at Mount Pleasant in the future.

The Member for Anson has asked whether the Police Force is equipped to deal with criminals who use sophisticated and scientific equipment. First, let me assure him that our Police Force has yet to encounter criminals resorting to the use of sophisticated and scientific weapons in the commission of crimes as enumerated by him. However, this does not imply that we are taking a back seat on the matter or to use the words of the Member "hoping that the criminals will not be that sophisticated". There is a committee comprising senior officers constantly reviewing Police equipment with a view to updating and withdrawing obsolete ones. The committee is also responsible for examining new weapons used by advanced police agencies in other countries to see whether they could be acquired for local use.

As regards the use of helicopters, a study has been made on its use, but it was found to be unsuitable from the point of view of operation. Cost-wise it is also not justified. However, if and when there is a need to use helicopters, the relevant body who has the helicopters will be approached to assist the Police.

Much has already been done to upgrade the techniques of criminal investigation so that we will always be ahead of the criminal. A Criminal Intelligence Unit was established in April 1973. A Scene of Crime Unit was also set up in 1975 to undertake specialised investigations into serious crimes. It will ensure that there is a systematic approach in the application of forensic science in Police investigations. This Unit will acquire modern and scientific equipment including some of those named by the Hon. Member, if necessary, and may also acquire a mobile crime laboratory and evidence collection van.

As for computerisation, the Police has a unit doing research and planning into the feasibility of using computers for Police work. This unit is working closely with the Computer Services Department of the Ministry of Finance. If necessary, the acquisition of a computer solely for Police use will be considered. A start has already been made to programme criminal records on computer. Similarly, traffic accident records have also been computerised.

Sir, turning to Police vehicles, the Force has a fleet of 313 saloon cars comprising (a) 1 52 team policing cars; (b) 67 radio patrol cars: (c) 95 general purpose cars. Of these, 182 were acquired in the fiscal years 1973/74 and 1974/75. The remaining vehicles which average four to five years' use will be replaced in stages. Hence, although some of the Police vehicles are relatively old and well-worn in terms of usage, they are not really bone-shakers in the conventional sense of the word.

As regards extortion, 356 cases were reported to the Police in 1975 as compared to 312 cases in 1974, an increase of 14%. However, a breakdown of reported cases in 1975 shows that 100 cases of extortion and attempted extortion were committed through the post as compared to 68 in 1974. It is believed that quite a number of extortion letters were written by cranks or pranksters. Nonetheless, the Police did not take any chances and each case was fully and promptly investigated; ambushes were also set up in appropriate places and with successful results as well.

Our statistics also show that only one case of extortion was committed by a secret society in 1975, whilst there was none in 1974. These are reported cases. However, crimes committed by secret society elements have decreased significantly in the last two years. There were only 36 secret society incidents in 1974 and 30 in 1975 compared to 68 in 1971, 78 in 1972 and 75 in 1973 respectively. However, the House can rest assured that there will not be any let-up in our action against secret societies.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Mr Speaker, Sir, could I just raise two points? First of all, the Minister mentioned a figure of over 300 cases of complaint. I am just wondering whether he could give comparative figures for the last three or five years, because I think it is necessary and important to make sure that there is a proper system of monitoring complaints to see whether there is, in fact, an improvement in the standard. Listening to the debate in this House from year to year, one seems to get the impression that the same old complaints are being aired. Has there been an improvement? I am not sure if the Minister has the figures available with him.

5.15 p.m.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, I am afraid I cannot give detailed figures at the moment. If the Member for Jalan Kayu were to write to me, I would give him the figures. The point to note is that there will always be complaints. But what is important is whether `they are major complaints or just minor complaints. From what I know of these complaints I can say that the number of major complaints has declined. I cannot speak the same for the minor complaints; the number may be the same or there might be a slight increase or decrease. What is evident is that the number of major complaints of Police brutality and so on has gone down.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: The information is needed not so much for myself. I think it would be better for the Minister to publish the figures for public consumption.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, it is best for the Member to put in a Question for Oral Answer or a Written Answer, and the figures will be published.

Mr Chin Harn Tong: (In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, allow me to say that what I cited just now were only some instances to prove that Police officers do protect their own kind and that their attitude towards members of the public has not been good. This is quite prevalent among Police officers. Perhaps the Minister is not aware of this because those officers with whom he comes into contact are high ranking officers and can be expected to show deference to the Minister as their superior. As to the attitude of the rank and file towards members of the public it constitutes a serious problem which I would like the Minister to be aware of.

One of the examples I quoted just now related to a person who wrote to the Commissioner of Police and he was not able to deal with the problem. If this problem cannot be solved by the Commissioner of Police, who is able to solve it? If one should write to the Minister, he would likewise ask the Commissioner of Police to deal with it, but the Commissioner of Police would not have been in a better position than the Minister to solve this problem.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, may I just say, in reply to the Member for Aljunied, that if only he had written to me earlier there would have been no reason for him to say that I would not be aware. In fact, I am aware that there are complaints. What is important is that complaints are gone into seriously and action is taken.

I have also stated that if the complainant is not satisfied with an answer from the Police Commissioner, there are other avenues for the complainant to resort to. He can write a letter to the Minister, or he can go to the CPIB, and so on. So there are procedures to ensure that if any Police officer attempts to cover up someone eIse, he will be discovered. That is all that I can say. There may or may not be cover-ups. It is not fair for me to say one way or the other. What I say is that if there are cover-ups, there are procedures whereby these cover-ups would be brought to the attention of the higher authorities, so that further investigations could be carried out because these are serious allegations. To be fair and impartial, I say again there are avenues for further investigations. I am not making excuses. I am not saying that if there are cover-ups, we should not go into it. If there are cover-ups, we should go into it. If any member of the public thinks that the Commissioner of Police is not in a position to deal with his complaint, he can go higher up, and it will go. I can assure the House that it will be so because this is a very serious allegation and this should not be in any case tolerated. I hope the Member for Aljunied will write to me giving me the details and I will have it reinvestigated.

Mr Chin Harn Tong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: At this stage, I propose to take the Suspension.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting now and will take the Chair again at 5.50 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.20 p.m. until 5,50 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.50 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed. [Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head U (cont.) --

The following amendment stood on the Order Paper Supplement-- Mr J. F. Conceicao: Mr Chin Ham Tong: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BDA 1111.

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao, Amendment (3).

Mr Conceicao (Katong): I an not speaking, Sir.

Mr Chin Harn Tong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BDA 1111.

Sir, I would like to ask the Traffic Police Department whether the provisions of the Road Traffic (Amendment) Act requiring pedestrians to use the overhead bridge within a distance of 50 metres, when crossing the road, have been implemented. These regulations are very important and should be strictly enforced, otherwise all the pedestrian overhead bridges and subterranean subways which cost large sums of money to build will be wasted.

Sir, as we have noticed, many people just ignore the overhead bridges and subways and jaywalk across the road. The most obvious example of jaywalking can be seen at Clifford Pier where, despite airconditioned escalators leading to the overhead bridge, the pedestrians would rather walk or run across the road. We all know that the traffic there is heavy and the road is quite wide. Therefore, it is very dangerous for pedestrians to walk or run across the road. If a jaywalker meets with an accident, it will not only be a matter of losing his life but also a matter of his family losing the breadwinner in the family, thus bringing about an additional social problem and burden. This disregard for pedestrian overhead bridges constitutes a source of danger to motorists and it will also cause obstruction to the flow of traffic. Besides, the jaywalker is also setting a very bad example to our younger generation who are prone to imitating what the elders do. In view of this, I hope that the Traffic Police Department will tackle this problem seriously and effectively implement such traffic regulations.

We are, of course, aware that if any motorist should infringe any traffic regulation, it is easy to book him. But this is not so with pedestrians who are guilty of jaywalking. This reminds me of the Ministry of the Environment which has been keeping Singapore clean effectively by enforcing punitive measures to deal with littering. Similarly I believe the Traffic Police Department should also be able to take punitive measures to prevent an infringement of these traffic regulations against jaywalking.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng is not here. Mr Chua.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, I agree entirely with what the Member for Aljunied has said with regard to jaywalking. In fact, jaywalking has been made an offence under the recent amendment to the Road Traffic Act. However, before it can be enforced, a new set of rules and regulations will have to be made under the Act. The drafting of these regulations are currently being undertaken by the Ministry of Home Affairs in consultation with the Attorney-General's Chambers.

It has been proposed that under the new regulations it would be an offence for any pedestrian who is within 50 metres of either side of a pedestrian crossing, be it an overhead bridge, a tunnel, or a zebra-crossing, if he does not make use of the crossing. Sir, we have specified metres and not yards, since we have gone metric. It is also proposed to exempt pedestrians who are sick, physically handicapped, or over 60 years of age, from such requirements. Perhaps a mass campaign against jaywalking will be launched before the law is implemented.

Mr Chin Harn Tong: (In Mandarin): In view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BHA 1111*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr N.Govindasamy.)

I would like to express the hope that additional expenditure to be incurred in this section for the Special Constabulary will result in improvement in the organisation and achievement of the Special Constabulary. I myself have received some reports about the Special Constabulary which I might perhaps describe as disquieting. These reports relate to weaknesses in the system of allocation of duties to Special Constabulary part-time national servicemen. They relate to lack of supervision to ensure that the men actually are out there on the beat that they have been given. These reports also relate to lax discipline, even such activity known as skiving or duty evasion. Specific instances illustrating these weaknesses have been brought to my attention. I am sure the Minister is as well aware as I am of these faults.

However, there is one development which I think deserves special encouragement and praise, and the re-examination of its implication as to its more universal applicability in the Special Constabulary as a whole. I am referring to a small experimental scheme that has been started in the G Division under which my own constituency comes. This scheme involves the sending out of teams composed of Special Constabulary national servicemen and regulars to neighbourhoods, especially housing estates, to identify and strike up relationships with groups of idle youth. These young people may be noticed horsing around, playing football where they are not supposed to, making a noise with guitars and other ways of noise-making, and causing a nuisance of themselves. If left too long to themselves, it is possible that these little groups of idle young people might turn to petty or more serious crime. Most of the members of these groups are unemployed and have time on their hands. The Special Constabulary teams make, I am told, patient overtures to these groups and try to direct their attention and energies towards more meaningful activities. Some success has been achieved in that many of these boys have voluntarily turned up at Police stations to play games against Police teams; they have been found jobs and their social attitudes have gradually changed towards one less apprehensive of authority and more cooperative towards society generally. An extension of this scheme has been contrived to involve some work in my own constituency and I am looking forward to successful results which I am told may be in the offing.

6.00 p.m.

This is the kind of work that many of our young Special Constabulary national servicemen would like to be involved in. Many of these national servicemen have groused against meaningless activities which they have been forced to perform. Here is one area admittedly of experiment but if successful, other kinds of similarly useful socially orientated activities could be planned, possibly with the collaboration of the Ministry of Social Affairs. I would certainly recommend greater support for this kind of work that is being done by the Ministry of Home Affairs.

6.02 p.m.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Sir, beat duty is by its nature monotonous. Many of our national servicemen who are performing their national service obligation as part-time special constables, and Vigilante Corps members as well, look upon such duties as uncreative and unproductive. This kind of attitude is especially evident amongst the so-called educated national servicemen. Some of the so-called educated, amongst whom are included some graduates and professional men, look upon their national service obligations as a way of surveying the streets looking at men and life on the roads with a philosophic eye. Can we really blame them for such an attitude? What programme has the Ministry of Home Affairs instituted to remove such feelings of despondency? What plans does the Ministry of Home Affairs have to instil in most of our part-time constables an awareness that they have an important role to play as special constables and Vigilante Corps members, and not just to let them loose in uniforms because the law requires that all male citizens should do national service? Many part-time special constables, after making a desultory round of their beat areas, sit in back lanes and dark corners of public parks waiting for their four-hour stint to be over so that they can go back to their stations to sign off. This is bad.

I was very pleased to hear that some Vigilante Corps members and special constables have been recruited into the Community Security Force which is a special squad performing anti-crime duties Some special constables too, I am told, have been recruited into a Task Force of anti-crime squads to do mobile duties in crime prevention. The vertical policing duties are also a much more interesting activity than doing ordinary beat duties. Unfortunately, it appears that not all special constables could be utilised in these special squads. More can be done along this line to make beat duty a more creative one as it is being done to some extent with the special constables who are being taught to operate and use walkie-talkies. In such ways, the Police Force can make more effective use of the enthusiasm of these young men to counteract the adverse influence of regulars who are cynical about special constables doing Police work.

I am told that some dental surgeons who are doing national service in the Special Constabulary have contributed financially in setting up a dental clinic with two dental chairs in the Police Academy. As part of their duties, the dental surgeons man this clinic which provides dental treatment to other part-time national servicemen and some regulars as well. The dental surgeons should be commended for their civic responsibility. Their professional training is also put to profitable use. A wider use of professional training amongst our special constables should be encouraged and developed. Limited use is made of doctors and legally trained men amongst the special constables. I suggest a full study of the trained professional manpower available among the ranks of special constables and their training be put to maximum use. I am told there are a number of lawyers whose expertise is very little made use of during their duty hours that they are able to sit in Police stations feeling bored and doing their own studies.

Another area of serious discontent is that they are tied to part-time national service for eight years.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: 12 years.

Mr N. Govindasamy: That makes it even worse. As more and more part-time national servicemen join the ranks year after year, the number of part-timers will be so large that the Ministry of Home Affairs will find it difficult to put them to beneficial use.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: I do not think so.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Well, we will see what plans the Ministry has for them. The Ministry must study the possibility of reducing part-time national service obligation to, say, four to five years or so. After this, just as full-time national servicemen, they could be called up for annual in-camp training, etc., to keep them up to-date.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in reply to the Members for Katong and Telok Blangah, let me say that I am very keenly aware of the shortcomings of the special constables which the Hon. Members have mentioned. In fact, I had referred to some of them in my address at the annual dinner of the Special Constabulary in November last year. At that dinner, I announced the appointment of a Special Constabulary Planning Committee under the chairmanship of my Parliamentary Secretary with the following terms of reference:-

(a) To review the role and system of deployment of part-time national servicemen and volunteers in the Special Constabulary;

(b) To formulate plans, guidelines and new roles from time to time for more effective and efficient deployment of the Special Constabulary and through greater interest and motivation in the work.

Since then a series of remedial measures have been taken and new schemes introduced as part of the reorganisation of the Special Constabulary which is now going on. This should pull the Special Constabulary out of the present malaise. Examples of the measures taken are:-

(1) Neighbourhood Policing Scheme. The Special Constabulary part-time national servicemen will soon be deployed at all the land divisions under a new Neighbourhood Policing Scheme whereby each unit of 120 national servicemen will be assigned to specific responsibility of patrolling a fixed area within the Housing and Development Board estates every night. This will offer each patrol team a more clear-cut role and area of responsibility. They will as far as possible be deployed in the neighbourhood where they live. Their familiarity with the areas of operation will help to enhance their effectiveness.

(2) Change of Unit Structure. In the past, special constables were divided into units of 150 men, each comprising one ASP, four Inspectors, one Station Inspector, eight Sergeants and 136 special constables. This Unit Structure has been found unsatisfactory in that the span of control was too wide. As national service officers, like other special constables, are required to perform their duties in the Special Constabulary only once in 10 days, national servicemen in the unit were often left without supervisory officers of the rank of inspector. This has resulted in national servicemen not being properly briefed and supervised and hence the complaints which Members have enumerated. A new Unit Structure which is smaller and comprising more supervisory officers has been introduced. This should ensure closer supervision and better deployment and leadership on the ground.

(3) Utilisation of better educated national servicemen like the professionals. The one result of the creation of more supervisory posts of sergeants and inspectors to man the Unit Structure is that there are now more opportunities for professional men and those with tertiary educational qualifications with leadership qualities in the Special Constabulary to be deployed in supervisory roles instead of having to do beat duties. I hope our professional men in the Special Constabulary will rise to the challenge and take on these leadership roles.

However, with regard to the rest of the professional men in the Special Constabulary, various schemes have been implemented and others are under study to give them more meaningful roles as follows:

(1) The dentists in the Special Constabulary have been organised to run dental clinics to service our special constables:

(2) Most of the veterinary surgeons have also been deployed to exercise their skills at the Police Dog Unit;

(3) More recently, a scheme has been introduced for doctors, social scientists and psychologists to be utilised to provide rehabilitative and counselling service to drug addicts admitted to and discharged from the Drug Rehabilitation Centre.

(4) National servicemen in the legal profession will also be selected to man the supervisory posts in a proposed Provost Unit.

The other schemes include the establishment of the following special units and squads:-

(a) Research Unit:

(b) Education and Indoctrination Unit;

(c) Publication and Publicity Unit;

(d) Drug Detection Squad;

(e) Task Force responsible for intelligence gathering, special anti-crime rounds and other special duties which have also been mentioned.

It is our policy, as far as possible, that professional men in the Special Constabulary will be utilised in their professional capacity. However, it must be recognised that it is not possible in the context of Police service to utilise all these national servicemen in roles strictly relevant to their profession.

As a result of the reorganisation and the various measures, which I have mentioned since the appointment of the Planning Committee some 5� months ago, there are now signs of improvement in the Special Constabulary. Discipline for one has been tightened. Prior to the reorganisation the Special Constabulary's average absentee rate in all the eight Divisions was 9.32% as at August 1975. This has dropped to 5.64% as at February 1976.

6.15 p.m.

The Special Constabulary patrol teams are subject to surprise checks by their supervisory officers during their tours of duty to ensure that they are carrying out their patrol duties in accordance with the deployment plan. This arrangement, which has already been employed by the regular force, has been found to be satisfactory. As I have mentioned before, the Special Constabulary Provost Unit will soon be set up to tighten further disciplinary control over these men.

I am glad that the Member for Katong has mentioned about the pilot project in the Joo Chiat Division which involved some Katong boys. A pilot project on detached youth work was introduced in the Housing and Development Board estate in the G Division, that is the Joo Chiat Division, in September 1 975. This project was aimed at achieving two objectives. The first objective was to win over the detached youths in this area and to inculcate in them the value of social discipline by organising games and activities and finding jobs for those who are jobless.

The second objective was to involve the families of these youths in crime prevention and other police projects within the housing estate. To-date a total of 60 police personnel comprising regulars, special constables. S.C, volunteers and special constables in the national service are involved in the projects. The number of youths participating in the projects is approximately 130. In March this year a similar project was launched in the Jalan Batu housing estate with the assistance of the community centre there, and perhaps with the encouragement of the Member for Katong. The response so far has been very encouraging. This project is being evaluated and, if successful, it will be extended to all the other housing estates.

Lastly, may I refer to the suggestion by the Member for Telok Blangah that instead of the 12-year period of part-time national service we should shorten it to four or five years. Firstly, the Member for Telok Blangah need not be unduly worried that the Ministry of Home Affairs will not be able to put increasing numbers of national servicemen to perform meaningful roles. Most of them are doing so now with the reorganisation that is being implemented. Under the present system of 12 years' part-time national service, the part-time national servicemen perform duties comprising three hours per week or six hours per fortnight or 12 hours per month, plus seven days in-camp training or for a period not exceeding in the aggregate 40 days annually. If the liability for part-time service is to be reduced to four or five years, as has been suggested by the Member for Telok Blangah, all part-time national servicemen will have to perform duties more frequently per month. Instead of the usual frequency of once in 10 days or four hours per session, they would be required to perform duties several times a week. This would certainly disrupt their employment and will cause difficulties for themselves, and the employers. It may also not be good for our economy.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, the Minister has set a specific number of hours and he says. "Well, if they do their part-time national service in 12 years they will have to do so many hours of work, and if we reduce it to five years, then they must perform the same number of hours of duties." This would mean that they have to go for duty practically everyday. When the number of years of duty is reduced, it is also possible to reduce the number of hours of duties which a person has to perform during his national service. It does not necessarily mean that the number of hours which the Ministry has specified for part-time national servicemen must be complied with.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, may I say that when we impose .the burden of duty on the part-time national servicemen, we have also to be fair to the full-time national servicemen who are doing 2� years of full-time national service. In fact, the part-time national serviceman has already been given a concession.

Mr N. Govindasamy: But if they are full-time --

Mr Chua Sian Chin: No. If they are fulltime, we would have taken them as full-time national servicemen. They are the youths who have applied for deferment of full-time national service, and they are therefore, put on part-time National Service. They have already been given a concession and. therefore, we have got to be fair to the full-time national servicemen. We just cannot reduce the number of hours of duty for the part-time national servicemen and cannot similarly reduce the period of service for the full-time national servicemen.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, is the Minister not aware that once a youth is called up for national service, he has no choice? Some of our youths do ask for part-time national service, upon being called up for full-time national service. But there are many other youths who have no choice at all. They are just taken in for part-time national service.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, that is a supplementary point. The point I wish to make is that we have got to be fair to both the part-time and full-time national servicemen. If a concession is made to the part-time national servicemen, then it is unfair not to make a concession to the full-time national servicemen. As far as the full-time national servicemen are concerned, the period of service is 2� years. Therefore, those who do part-time national service must do it for a longer period.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, after listening to the debate, I have the impression that it is not so much a question of length of service as the work they are involved in that is meaningful. The complaints I have received are that they feel that they are not doing anything meaningful. As described to me by a number of the part-time national servicemen, the in-camp training is no more than a high school picnic. There is nothing much to do.

Can I also take this opportunity to ask the Minister for an assurance that those doing part-time national service, who are working people are assigned to camps nearest their homes? Last month two cases came to my notice. Part-time national servicemen who -are staying in Yio Chu Kang were sent to Chua Chu Kang. I am not jumping to any conclusion, but it is possible that someone has got Yio Chu Kang and Chua Chu Kang mixed up.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, I agree with the Member for Jalan Kayu that we should try to give them a more meaningful role. That is the reason why, as I have said, 5� months ago I have appointed a committee to look into this matter. In fact, measures have already been implemented to give them a more meaningful role.

As regards the two part-time national servicemen who were sent to Chua Chu Kang instead of Yio Chu Kang, as pointed out by the Member for Jalan Kayu. I will take note of that. As far as possible, for the benefit of everyone, national servicemen will be given duties nearest their homes. I have already stated that in the Neighbourhood Policing Scheme, we are assigning personnel to units and groups nearest their homes as far as possible.

Mr Conceicao: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DAA 1109*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr P. Govindaswamy and Dr Ong Leong Boon.)

Sir, today in Singapore there are still a fair number of Singapore citizens whose wives, being non-citizens, are permitted to stay on temporary visas renewable at three- to six-monthly intervals. Sir, the sad thing is that many of these non-citizens have been married to our citizens for a great number of years and have even given birth to children in Singapore. But every three or six months they still have to go to the Immigration Department to have their visas renewed. Each renewal costs $15. This may be a small sum of money to some people but to the average working man it is an added burden, not to mention the inconvenience and extra expenses incurred in travelling from their homes to the Immigration Department and back again.

Many of these non-citizen housewives have applied for permanent residence status but, as far as I know, very few have been successful. As a result, the impression they have gained is that in the existing arrangement the Government finds a convenient way to generate more revenue. I certainly hope that this is not the case. Would the Minister grant permanent residence status to all these cases? I cannot see any good reason why these people should be left in a state of uncertainty.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, lately the Immigration Department has been extremely strict in renewing visas. In the past, the practice was to grant visas for six months. But owing to certain problems the period has been reduced to three months, with extensions only for special cases. But lately it is difficult to obtain even a week's extension after the period of three months has expired, even though the person applying it has valid reasons. I wonder what are the criteria for granting an extension? Could the Minister relax this condition because most of our Singapore citizens have their families and relatives abroad and they wish to bring them to Singapore for social visits, etc.

Next, the Immigration Officers, particularly at the Woodlands check-point, do not give special consideration for emergency cases. There was a case of a 11-year old Malaysian boy whose restricted passport was incorporated in his father's passport. His father had gone abroad for some personal reasons. One Sunday, in an emergency, the boy and his mother came all the way down from Ipoh to attend the funeral of a relative in Singapore. The Immigration Authorities at our end refused the boy permission to enter, even though the mother produced his birth certificate. She was told to get a letter of identification from the Malaysian authorities. Unfortunately, being a Sunday, the mother had difficulty getting this letter. Thus he was refused entry and had to miss the funeral of his relative. I wonder why our officials had refused entry for this boy though the mother was able to produce the birth certificate of the boy to prove his case. Could the officials not use some discretion in this case and allow the boy entry into Singapore?

Sir, I would also like to know how many illegal immigrants were found in Singapore during the last one year. Are our entry points properly guarded? It appears that a number of illegal immigrants have been found in Singapore. Some have families and some of them are even employed in construction work. Why is this so?

If you produce a letter from a Minister or an MP, the Immigration officers will say. `Why do you bring this letter? Had you come straight to me, I would have given you three months' extension." And if you produce such a letter, they will say. "No" to your application for an extension. They even shout in a public place like that. One day a person came along with a letter from the Minister for Foreign Affairs. They said, "Why do you want to bring a letter from the Minister? Had you come direct to me I would have given you three months' extension."

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Is that so? 6.30 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes. What is the Immigration Department doing? They have the authority to grant an extension as well as the authority to refuse. It is unfair. There was the case of a pregnant woman who had undergone an operation. Her doctor gave her a letter to support her application for an extension of stay. But the Immigration Department refused to give her an extension and said. "You must go." The poor woman was sick and suffering. What sort of sympathy is there in Singapore? Foreigners say that Singapore is a very good country. There is no doubt that we have a good and strict Government. But it is regretted that the Immigration Department did not grant an extension of stay to the pregnant woman whose case deserves sympathetic consideration.

The Hon. Minister should give this matter some thought and inform the Immigration Department not to do this as it is very bad for the image of our country. These people came here with money and they only want an extension of three months.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise in support of the sentiments expressed by the Members for Jalan Kayu and Anson During our meet-the-people sessions we come across numerous cases week in and week-out of problems with Immigration Department regarding applications for extension of stay in Singapore. I would like to ask the Hon. Minister what are the considerations of the Immigration Department in granting a non-citizen wife a two-week stay in Singapore, and what are the considerations in extending this to three months or six months? We have numerous examples of a non-citizen wife who has been on a three-month visa for umpteen years. Surely at some point the camel's back has got to break. I think some reasonable explanation should be given.

Secondly, Sir, I would like therefore to ask the Hon. Minister what are the criteria that the Immigration Department use for awarding permanent residence status to these people. Similarly, I would like to ask the Minister: are the same considerations used with regard to non-citizen husbands of Singaporeans?

The third point I hope the Minister could elaborate concerns the possibility of travel and travel documents for the numerous people in Singapore who are stateless. Can these stateless residents apply for and be granted travel documents to enable them to travel out of Singapore, many of whom have very good reasons such as for business, for family affairs, and so forth?

Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, we all know that the Singapore Government grants permanent stay to a foreigner if he can pay $250,000 And moreover his family is also given permanent residence The other day, in the debate on the Budget Statement, the Finance Minister said that our per capita Gross National Product is about S6.000 So if a non-citizen wife or husband happens to be in Singapore for 10 years, then that person has actually contributed $600,000. I do not see any good reason for refusing permanent stay to an applicant. I am fully in agreement with the Member for Jalan Kayu who said that apart from wasting time and money in renewing visas, the important thing that we should consider is the anxiety of the applicant. They do not know when they will be asked to leave Singapore. Sir, these people already have children in Singapore and there is no question of the bona fides of their marriage I think the Minister has to make some ruling in respect of these people who have already stayed here for more than 10 years and who are still unable to get permanent residence. Besides they do not have identity cards.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, may I answer the Member for Jalan Kayu first? As in the case of citizenship, the grant of permanent residence is not a matter of right but a privilege. This is the case in most countries of the world and Singapore is no exception. It stands to reason that Singapore with a small land are~ which is already about the most densely populated country in the world should be particularly strict in granting permanent residence to foreigners, even though they have become wives of Singapore citizens. After much strenuous effort we have been able to bring down our birth rate and our population growth. Let us not negate this by relaxing our immigration controls on permanent residence, thus putting a strain on our housing, social and other services

Singapore citizens may submit applications for permanent residence for their foreign wives and dependent children. But each case is processed and decided on its merits. Among the number of factors considered is whether the husband is well able I emphasise "well able" to support his wife and children such that they are unlikely to become a burden to the State. However, if an application has been refused, the wife and children of a Singapore citizen are still allowed to stay in Singapore on a visit pass which can be extended every three to six months. If at a later stage the applicants circumstances change and could meet the requirements of the Immigration Department's policy, their application can be reviewed for approval.

It rarely happens that a visit pass of a foreign wife and children of a Singapore citizen is extended for one or two weeks as has been mentioned. This is important. This restrictive `criterion for the grant of permanent residence to foreign wives is to discourage our citizens who can barely support a wife and children to marry a foreign wife, thereby giving extra burden to our Republic. It is quite clear that we are not trying to raise revenue by this six-month or three-month extension. As far as the Ministry of Home Affairs is concerned, we have no interest in the raising of revenue.

Turning to the Member for Anson. The Immigration Department issues various types of passes to foreigners of varying periods of validity. Passes for purposes of employment or for study in our educational institutions normally exceed six months. However, passes for social visits are normally for a duration of two weeks in the first instance and renewable for periods not exceeding three months. That is for social visits A foreigner who seeks further extension of his stay for another three months in the Republic, either as a tourist or to visit relatives, approval for such extension will depend on the merits of each case In the case of a foreigner who is a relative of a Singapore citizen, he may be given a stay of more than three months at a time. It is considered that the extension o' three months is adequate for staying as a tourist or for social visits to relatives. This policy of periodic extensions for social visits, each subsequent extension being for a shorter duration, is necessary to discourage foreigners from taking advantage of long periods of stay to pursue activities other than as a tourist or as a social visitor.

The Member for Anson has quoted the case of a Malaysian boy who could not come into Singapore. This boy carried a passport which was issued to his father, with the boy's name incorporated in it, and he tried to enter Singapore without his father. The international immigration practice, this is not only the practice in Singapore, that a minor should not be allowed entry into a country unless he is accompanied by an adult who is the minor's legal guardian under whose passport the minor is travelling, since such passport does not constitute a valid travel document for the minor. If the minor is unaccompanied by the legal guardian under whose passport he is travelling, then in this particular case it raises a doubt whether the father has consented to his son travelling to Singapore. However, in spite of this doubt, the Immigration check-point was prepared to admit the boy if documentary evidence could he produced from the Malaysian authorities as the boy is a Malaysian - it is just across the Causeway - - to ensure that he would return to Malaysia after his visit to Singapore and that he is not stranded in Singapore.

Sir, a total of 1,043 illegal immigrants were arrested during the year 1975 in spite of our stepped-up enforcement. This represents a significant decline as compared to 2,223 arrested in 1973 and 1,365 in 1974. Our check-points are adequately manned, to reassure the Member for Anson. But our coastline is easily accessible to small craft carrying illegal immigrants to land at unauthorised entry points. The Marine Police is getting more boats to patrol our waters and this should help to keep our coastline less accessible to traffickers. No effort has been spared by the Immigration Department intelligence unit and the Police in tracking down traffickers, checking on worksites and other places where illegal immigrants could find temporary work. In 1975, no less than 19 traffickers were arrested, charged and convicted in court. In the same year, 278 employers and 108 harbourers of illegal immigrants were also prosecuted in court. Under an amendment to the Immigration Act, longer terms of imprisonment plus caning have been meted out to the traffickers. This has accounted for a further decline in the number of illegal immigrants in Singapore.

Sir, coming to the Member for Kim Seng, he asked about the application for permanent residence. Non-citizens who wish to apply for permanent residence can submit entry permit applications on a prescribed form to the Entry Permit Section of the Immigration Department. The prescribed forms are obtainable there. The Schedule to the Immigration Prohibition and Entry Order, 1973, allows a non-citizen wife to apply for permanent residence if her lawful husband is a Singapore citizen and if they have not at any one time after their marriage been living separately from each other for more than five years There are no provisions in the Order for the grant of permanent stay to the husband of a Singapore citizen. However, the husband may apply for permanent residence on his own merits under the Professional Skilled Personnel Scheme or the $250,000 economic investment scheme.

In those cases, if both the husband and wife are not permanent residents, the husband can also apply for permanent residence on his own merit under the two schemes I have just mentioned. Once the husband is granted permanent residence, his wife .will also be considered favourably for permanent residence.

6.45 p.m.

With regard to his other queries, I think I have covered them in my answers to the queries from the other Members of Parliament.

Turning to the Member for Bras Basah, he made some computation

Mr Ho See Beng: Computation from the Minister for Finance.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: The Minister for Finance said something and he computed from that. He says that if a wife has been here for ten years she would have contributed $600,000 to the State. That is just superficial arithmetic. I would like ~o remind the Member for Bras Basah that she would also have consumed social services and so on to the tune of that amount or even more.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, regarding the restriction of visas, if a non-citizen wife of a Singapore citizen wants to stay here for six months, what is the objection on that?

Regarding illegal immigration, can the Immigration Department check on all illegal immigrants? There are more than two million people in Singapore, and the Department has to check each and every identity card holder before it can find out who are tile illegal immigrants. I was told there are 500.000 illegal immigrants. They have no passports or identity cards. I do not know how they have come into Singapore.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I find the answers given by the Minister are not very satisfactory. He has said that the essential considerations were that "the husband must be well able to support the family" and that "these individuals will not be a burden on society". I would certainly like further definition of these two terms. To me, without any clearer definition, it gives the Immigration Department tremendous arbitrary powers to do as and when it thinks fit, I would certainly hope that the Minister could give much clearer guidelines to this House so that we can on our part do our little bit in explaining to the applicants.

I also asked for his advice with regard to how visit passes could be extended from two weeks to three months, and from three months to six months, and subsequently to permanent residence. I maintain there are (lute a number of non-citizen wives who are on a two-week visit passes and that their applications for extension to three months have been rejected on grounds which we are unable to find out. Certainly there must be certain considerations here, and could the Minister let this House know? I am aware of the case of a lady who has been married to a Singapore-citizen husband for about 20 years now. They have four children. She is still on a $1 5-visa fee plus the inconvenience of having to travel to and from Johore Bahru. The Minister has not answered my third point, that is, on the stateless people in Singapore and how they may apply for travel documents.

Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, I do not think the Minister has got any leg to stand on in his argument that they were the cause of our high population density. Does he not know that many of them have already been in Singapore before our population reached 2 2 million? However, they being here before or after the population reached that figure has got nothing to do with our population density. This is the point

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, as far as I am concerned, the answer from the Minister is totally disappointing. It has a very familiar ring. It reminds me of one of those official replies one gets from a Government department, "Here are the rules arid regulations".

The point has been very rightly made by the Member for Bras Basah. The fact that these wives have been here all this length of time, does that not in itself prove that their husbands are financially able to support them? That in itself already proves the point, does it not? So where is this question of financial ability or inability? It simply shows that the officers in the department could not he bothered to try and find out more. They are totally unsympathetic, the way I see it.

The Minister mentioned that the $15-visa fee is not important. If that is the case, may I suggest that it be reduced to a nominal sum of $2? If it costs S15 to the Government just to put a rubber chop on the passport, the rate of productivity must be terrible!

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour (Mr Fong Sip Chee): Sir, if I may just make an observation. I am not contributing to this debate. The Member for Bras Basah quoted the income per capita of S6,000 a year.

Mr Ho See Beng: National income per capital!

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Whatever he calls it, he says it is $6,000 a year. So multiplying $6,000 by 10, he came to the figure of $600,000 for 10 years. I do not know how he came to that figure. It should be $60,000 However, he succeeded in misleading the Minister into replying, but both based on wrong arithmetic. I cannot blame the Ministry of Education this time for the bad performance in the numeracy.

Mr Ho See Bong: Thank you for pointing it out.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, we are not here to debate on arithmetic skill. We are here to debate on a policy and the facts of the matter.

May I say again that it is not a case of the Immigration Department being arbitrary. They have a task to perform and it is no doubt an unpleasant task. We have to be strict in our immigration policy. As far as possible we should not allow more people to come into Singapore. We have to keep to a very strict policy.

As far as the Member for Kim Seng's queries are concerned, I have already answered them, no doubt, in general policy terms. What is most important is that we have to decide not only whether or not we should grant permanent residence to the non-citizen wife but also decide on the criteria whether the husband can well support his wife. Maybe he can support a wife! But we must also take into consideration that his circumstances may change. What happens when he cannot support his wife? Then, on humanitarian and sympathetic grounds, he becomes a burden to the State. The consideration is not only that he can support her but that he can well support her to the extent that, if his circumstances change for the worse, there is no likelihood that his wife will become a burden to the State. We have certain income criteria too, but it is no point of mine to state specifically the income criteria because there are other factors, like ownership of property. So each case must be taken on its own merit.

The other point is about population. That we are doing all this is because we will not want to negate all our efforts to restrict our population growth. This is not just a superficial attitude towards population growth. If, for example, we make it easy for our people to take foreign wives, give their wives permanent residence, then not only are we encouraging the present non-permanent residents who are living here to get permanent residence and later become a burden to the State, but we are also encouraging other people from outside Singapore to come in. So the policy must be such that we have not only to deal with the wives who are already here but also to see that other foreigners may not be encouraged to marry our citizens because, as I said, more foreign wives may mean extra burden to the State.

The Member for Kim Seng brought up the point about a lady who has been given a two-week pass. I think there is no point in airing this matter here because we will be hearing cursory facts of the case, and I do not think we can do justice to the case because to do so all factors will have to be considered. I therefore invite the Member for Kim Seng to write to me or to the Controller of Immigration.

With regard to stateless persons, if they are stateless it means that they are not citizens of any country. Therefore, if they have occasion to travel abroad on business or to visit a relative, they cannot get any travel document except in Singapore, in which event they can only apply for a certificate of identity. In fact, there are stateless persons who have been granted certificates of identity. But if they can get travel documents from elsewhere, then the need to apply for a certificate of identity does not arise.

7.00 p.m.

The Member for Anson has mentioned something about the Immigration officers being very unsympathetic, rude and so on. I would invite him to give particulars of the case because, as far as the Immigration Department is concerned, the officers no doubt have a difficult job to do. But there is no reason for them to be rude and unsympathetic. I hope I have answered all the questions.

Mr Ho See Bong: Sir, the Minister is trying to cloud the issue. He said that if we were to allow foreign wives a permanent stay here, we would be encouraging foreign girls to marry Singapore boys. However, this question does not arise at all after the introduction of the new rule on 1st July, 1973 which says that after that date any foreign woman who wants to marry a Singapore citizen has to obtain the prior approval of the Commissioner for Employment. His argument therefore cannot be right at all. -

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour can better answer the question. But I think that applies only to those who are work permit holders. Whereas in this case they are stateless persons who are not work permit holders.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I still do not find the Minister's answer convincing at all. He seems to give the impression that by not giving these people permanent residence status we can assume that they are simply not here. They seem to be doing a disappearing trick! As the Member for Bras Basah has rightly pointed out, insofar as discouraging our citizens from marrying non-citizens is concerned, we have a policy which has made it quite clear that if a Singapore youth wants to marry a non-citizen he or she will have to get approval, otherwise he or she could not be registered in the Registry of Marriages here. That is a fact. Is the Minister now saying that this is not the policy of the Government?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am afraid it is not true because they can always marry abroad.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I have no intention of joining in. The problem here is riot a question of marrying abroad or in Singapore. The problem is still faced by people who were married in Singapore. There is the case of a woman who has been married here for eight years and has four children all living here in a Housing Board flat. To all intents and purposes, whether the Department charges $15 for three months or $50 for three months, she has got to be here because her family is here. There are many such cases of people who have their roots here. I have written to three different Ministers in charge of Immigration and I have given up hope. I used to talk on this topic but for the last few years I have stopped talking about it. I do not know if the Minister has said earlier on that "the policy is being constantly reviewed". This is another official phrase. I do not know whether or not it has been used today. I am a little uncomfortable when I hear this phrase.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: I did not use it.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Perhaps when the Minister replies he will want to use it. Sir, the woman has been here for eight years. She was married in the Singapore Registry of Marriages. Four children were born in Singapore and they are now living in a Housing Board flat.

The Minister has said earlier that the Department would have to consider whether the husband would still be able to maintain his wife and children if his circumstances change. My point is even if his circumstances change, his wife is not going to take her four children back to Malaysia or to the country from which she came because she just cannot leave Singapore. Therefore, to all intents and purposes whether or not we give her permanent status, she is here to stay and she will always be here with her family.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah said that he had brought up this point again and again. My reply is, Mr Deputy Speaker, there is no point in my repeating it again.

Mr Ho See Bong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister has also said just now that the husband has got to look after his wife. Nowadays we see many wives are being employed. They can support themselves. What does the Minister say to that?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, may I just clarify. When I say that the husband must support his wife, I am just making a general statement. If the wife can also work and contribute to the family income, of course, the situation will be different.

Mr Ho See Bong: The Minister did not say that just now.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Well, the Member for Bras Basah did not bring it up.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I must say that I am still disappointed with the Minister's reply. Very strong sentiments have been expressed on this side of the House. We have expressed our views very clearly. We are talking of people whose roots are here. They have been here for umpteen years. They have children who are Singapore citizens. But somehow the Minister seems to think that they are not here. This beats me. The very least the Minister can do is to promise us that he will look into the matter. That will at least keep us happy. But he is not prepared to say even that.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I think the situation is getting from bad to worse. We on the Backbenches plead with the Minister, since he is a man with feelings, emotions and, we hope, with sympathy. We are dealing with a situation where these people have been living here for umpteen years. They have families here. Their husbands and children are here. Some of them even have their grandchildren here. It would, therefore, appear that to all intents and purposes, although they might not be citizens, the fact is that they are here. Therefore, there is no way in which one could think of really kicking them across the Straits of Johore. They are here to stay whether he likes it or not, or whether he grants them citizenship status or let them remain as non-citizens. But since they are here, why not grant them permanent residence status? Let us not keep this as another skeleton in our cupboard, and continue to maintain a posture which to me is oblivious of reality. I hope the Minister will be very obliging and humanitarian enough to look at the facts and consider them with sympathy.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, of course, if I can please Hon. Members, I will certainly do so. Of course, it is very easy to say things which are popular. It is not that we do not consider these matters sympathetically. But facts are facts. We are an over-crowded island Republic and we cannot encourage people to come in numbers more than we can manage. That is why we have very strenuously been trying to keep down the population growth in Singapore. It is not that we are unsympathetic to human plights and humanity.

As the saying goes, charity begins at home. First of all, the responsibility of the Singapore Government is to look after the livelihood and the future of the vast majority of the citizens of Singapore. I do not want to indulge in emotional appeals. But let me say that sometimes, in order to protect the interests of the majority of our citizens and of Singapore, we have to be quite strict in the application of our policies.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, as the saying goes, if you cannot oblige you can always say things obligingly. In view of the fact that the Minister does seem a bit more obliging, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead EAA 1111.

Sir, there is no doubt that the Community Security Force of the Vigilante Corps comprising national servicemen has done a great deal for our people. Its service has been immensely valuable. With a strength of 40,000 it constitutes a very strong peacekeeping force. Its members have been deployed to patrol the various areas in the Republic every night. Ever since the CSF was formed, there has been a marked improvement in the standard of our security. The crime rate has gone down. Generally speaking, a more secure and peaceful environment has been created for the people. Our people have been favourably impressed by their services.

Although by and large these CSF men have acquitted themselves well, there are still some defects within the Corps. I would, therefore, like to take this opportunity to raise two points. Firstly, is the Minister aware that absenteeism is still evident in the Vigilante Corps? I understand that the absenteeism usually begins with the platoon leaders. At present the VC members are formed into platoons of four or six members each. Having signed their attendance at the Area Office, they would go to the designated areas to perform beat duties. However, some platoon leaders would absent themselves under one pretext or another and, thus, leave the members to perform patrol duties themselves Being left alone by their platoon leaders, the VC members would also stay away from their own duties. This is a very sorry state of affairs, I would, therefore, like the Minister to take note of this situation and take the necessary measures to remedy it. The platoon leaders and the Corps members involved in such misdeeds should be severely dealt with. The platoon leaders should be more severely dealt with.

Secondly, would the Minister consider making arrangements for the VC members to become part-time lift attendants in the Housing Board estates? We have often heard of robberies and women being molested in the lifts by evil elements. If the VC members could be assigned to look after these lifts, such crimes will be reduced; at the same time, the lifts can also be looked after and kept clean. There is no point in getting other people to do this work because there are 40,000 members in the Vigilante Corps at the moment. Therefore, there is an adequate supply of manpower available.

7.15 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Lim Guan Hoo): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I must thank the Member for Sembawang for paying high tribute to the Community Security Force of the Vigilante Corps. It is going to be an annual affair, but it is welcomed.

The Community Security Force is indeed performing a very useful role in the policing of housing estates. Their presence in housing estates is a good deterrent against crime. Since the scheme was put into operation in 1 974 the incidence of crime between 7 p.m, and 11 p.m, has been reduced significantly in the areas selected for CSF policing service. Since July 1975 residents of these areas have been able to enjoy an average of 29 crime-free nights a month.

Vigilante Corps members performing community security service are grouped into patrol teams of five men each. A leader is appointed in each team and he is, among other things, responsible for the conduct and discipline of his team members during the tour of duty. Regular and spot checks on the CSF patrol teams are also carried out nightly by supervisory officers to ensure that they are performing their duties properly. This will be supplemented by the efforts of the Provost Unit which will be set up under the Police (National Service) Command.

The strength of the Force is 6.409 officers and men as on 31st January, 1976. They are posted to a total of 229 sectors spread out throughout the Republic. For such a strength and coverage it is to be expected that there will be a few black sheep and defaulters. It is. however, encouraging to note that the average absenteeism rate has been very low, It was 3.9% in 1974 and this dropped to 2.8% in 1975. This is calculated on man-time basis. As for the monthly average bad absentee rate of the Vigilante Corps as a whole it was 0.0015% for the period September 1975 to February this year. The term "bad absentee" refers to a VC member who has absented himself from training or duties up to a maximum of four times a year either consecutively or otherwise.

There are a total of 39,771 national servicemen in the Vigilante Corps as on 31st January, 1976. Besides this, 6,409 are in the CSF. 6,101 are under training, and the remainder are deployed in the Civil Defence Units, the Auxiliary Fire Units and the Deployment and Specialised Units The Vigilante Corps members perform their national service duties for four hours each time from 7.00 p.m. to 11.00 p.m. The majority of the men report for duty thrice a month. Their deployment must therefore be carefully planned and it must be consistent with the national service objectives of the Vigilante Corps.

As Vigilante Corps national servicemen have been given other more meaningful roles to play, it is regretted that the lift service as proposed by the Member for Sembawang cannot be included in the deployment plan of the Corps. I am sure many Members will agree with me that service as lift attendants cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered as a meaningful role for our young and dynamic national servicemen in the Vigilante Corps.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I do not quite agree with the Parliamentary Secretary that looking after the lifts is not a meaningful job. It is a useful job. Some of the Backbenchers have said that if they are deployed to do beat duty, they will be just strolling about surveying the road and it will be very monotonous, But if they are deployed to look after the lifts, they will see that the lifts are safe for use by the residents. They will thus be contributing to the safe use of the lifts in addition to keeping the lifts clean. They will also help to keep away those bad elements.

There are as many HDB flats in the Parliamentary Secretary's Constituency of Bukit Merah as there are in the many Housing Board estates elsewhere. Many other housing estates will also benefit from the scheme to deploy Vigilante Corps members to look after the HDB lifts.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: Sir, I regret that I cannot agree with the Member for Sembawang. But I must thank him for expressing deep concern for the residents in my constituency instead of his own.

Sir, I understand that very soon there will be about 2,000 blocks of HDB flats in the whole of the island. This means that in time to come there will be more than 2,000 lifts in HDB housing estates. If each lift is to be looked after by a Vigilante Corps national serviceman, and there are two lifts in each block on the average, then the manpower requirement will be somewhere around 40.000. Has the Member forgotten that at present there are only 40,000 national servicemen in the CSF Vigilante Corps? Does it mean that the whole Vigilante Corps will be turned into an army of lift attendants! I do not think the national servicemen, including those from Sembawang constituency, would support this fancy idea.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, there is no problem of manpower recruitment. We have 40,000 national servicemen in the Vigilante Corps at the moment, but next year the strength will increase to 50,000 and it increases year by year.

For the 2,000 lifts in Housing Board estates, the men can be deployed on a part-time basis, say, at four hours each night. Therefore, there will be only one shift for each lift. There is no need to have two or three shifts; that is unnecessary. They need only to carry out their duties at night. It is therefore not correct to say that there is a shortage of manpower because every year we have new members joining the Vigilante Corps. If we have one shift of men to look after the lifts, there is no question of manpower shortage.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: Sir, I have to clarify that the manpower projection made by me just now is based on the calculation that there will be only one shift duty for the Vigilante Corps members and not two or three shifts.

Since the Member is so persistent in his proposal, I may as well repeat what I have said just now. It is regretted that his proposal cannot be implemented and included in the deployment plan of the Vigilante Corps.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, can I help resolve this situation? Before the Member for Sembawang makes this proposal, I would suggest that he himself goes on a lift-attending stint and then come back and advise this House as to whether it is pleasurable or otherwise.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I feel that this is a decent or honourable type of job. It is not without any meaning. If the Member for Kim Seng is willing to go. I would like to accompany him to have a look-round.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I have never suggested that it is pleasurable. But since he is so persistent, he should go for a stint for a month and come back and report to us. We will then cheer him all the way, Sir.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think we should end this debate on lift attendants. The Member for Sembawang has totally missed the objectives of the Vigilante Corps.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am fully, aware of the tasks and duties of the Vigilante Corps. Of course, they could be deployed to do other jobs in addition to looking after the lifts, This could be part of their work. They could perform other duties. I entirely agree. I do not mean that they should be deployed to look after the lifts only and neglect the other duties.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Even if we concede that lift-attending is one of the roles, it is not possible to man all the 2.000 lifts. If we are not able to man all the 2,000 lifts, which housing estate should we begin manning the lifts . . Redhill, MacPherson, Kim Seng or Sembawang, if there are lifts there?

Sir, I think there is enough debate on this. The stand is quite clear.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment. I would like to ask him this. If there is sufficient manpower, would he consider this proposal?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, the answer is no.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, since the Minister does not want to consider this proposal. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead FAA 1109.

Sir, during the last one year penalties for the trafficking of drugs have increased to include the death sentence. Yet the problem of drug-taking in Singapore remains acute. Otherwise, there would be less cases of trafficking of drugs into the island. There are still many people addicted to drugs. Numerous cases of drug addiction are being reported in our daily press. Why is this so? The root of the problem is drug trafficking. What about the persons who consume drugs? Can the Minister supply facts and figures on the number of drug traffickers and drug addicts who were prosecuted since the new Act came into force?

It seems that the Central Narcotics Bureau cad do very little to control the number of persons taking drugs. I feel that the officials of the Central Narcotics Bureau should make frequent spot checks on factories. construction sites, housing estates, schools, institutions of higher learning, and offices, to track down those addicts or traffickers in drugs. They should act on information, as this can be one of the ways to deter those persons from consuming and trafficking drugs.

7.30 p.m.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, the problem of drug abuse is a global one. Many countries in the world are grappling with an increasing drug problem. In particular, heroin abuse is predominant in neighbouring countries where there are illicit heroin laboratories. Singapore is therefore right in the midst of a region which appears to be the chief supplier of the world's illicit narcotics. As such, the spillover effects of what was originally a drug that was merely trafficked through is now being felt, that is, an increasing number of our people are now consuming and taking heroin.

Supply and demand of drugs and abuse are both equally important factors to be considered in combating the drug problem. In Singapore, the availability of heroin supplies and the very fast turning-on process peculiar to heroin abuse has contributed to a phenomenal heroin abuse. Last year, 2.263 persons were arrested for suspected offences related to heroin alone. Since the Misuse of Drugs (Amendment) Act, 1975, which introduced the death penalty was passed in December last year, a total of 33 persons were prosecuted for trafficking in morphine and heroin and 12 persons for trafficking in opium and cannabis. In the same period, 262 abusers were charged for possession of or consuming various drugs. But out of the 33 persons arrested, seven will face the death penalty when they are brought to trial.

The old established drug trafficking syndicates have all been broken up by the use of the provisions of detention under the Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act. However, there are persons who are always willing to take the risk for quick money. Of the 3,048 persons arrested for suspected drug offences last year, 73% were under 30 years of age; many were, in fact, under 20 years. For this age group, drug education and rehabilitation is important to prevent the spread of drug abuse. This is a long-term preventive measure and the results will take some time to be seen.

Drug addicts are now sent to the Drug Rehabilitation Centre for varying periods of six to nine months. If necessary, the period may be increased to a year or more. While undergoing rehabilitation at the Centre, the addicts are given replacement therapy. However, we have come to the conclusion that this soft approach has not been very effective and the recidivism rate among the addicts has been high. We are now proposing to introduce the "cold turkey" treatment whereby the addicts will undergo withdrawal without being given replacement drugs. Compulsory aftercare may also be introduced. These measures should help to reduce the recidivism rate among addicts who are subsequently released from the Centre.

The Central Narcotics Bureau carries out an average of 72 raids per month last year. I can assure the Member for Anson that several of their notable trafficking cases were obtained as the result of intensive and painstaking investigations and undercover work over a protracted period of weeks and sometimes even months. The Bureau also carries out routine raids on suspected drug haunts.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi -

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead GAA 1111.

The Chairman: Haji Mohd, Ariff, amendment (8).

Haji Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi: I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead HAA 1111*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr P. Govindaswamy and Dr Ong Leong Boon.)

Under this amendment, I would like to raise two questions to the Minister, First, will he consider relaxing the conditions for the approval of applications for citizenship?

I know that many people have applied for citizenship for many years without any success. I would like to quote two practical instances. There was a person who was born in Singapore but his name on the birth certificate happened to be similar to the name of another person. So his birth certificate was not accepted by the authority concerned and as a result his pink identity card was changed to a blue one. He therefore had to apply for citizenship. Three years have already gone by, and he is still awaiting for news.

According to my understanding, it is regrettable for him to have been born here during the Shonan-to era. His name was mixed up in the registration for a birth certificate. Members of his family like his parents and brothers can prove that he was born here. His neighbours can also certify that he was born in Singapore. But the Department concerned would not accept this.

The second instance is about an applicant who was born on 13th June, 1935 in Singapore, and he lost his birth certificate during the Japanese occupation. But he has lived in Singapore since birth and he had cast his votes in every general election, including the 1972 general elections. However, after the last general elections his pink identity card was withdrawn and he was issued with a blue card. Thus he lost his citizenship status. He has three children who were also born in Singapore. In view of the fact that he is not a citizen he has to pay more in terms of school fees and other charges, thus increasing his financial burden.

From the two examples I have quoted, I feel that the Registry of Citizenship should give more sympathetic consideration to their applications because they were both born here but happened to have their birth certificates mixed up and lost during the Shonan-to era, resulting in their citizenship being revoked. For this kind of application for citizenship, more liberal consideration and speedier approval should be given.

For the next question, I would like to ask the Minister in the past one year how many applications for citizenship have been approved and how many have been rejected, and what were the reasons for such rejections?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I know that the granting of citizenship is a privilege and not a right. The basis of granting it is whether the applicant will be a national asset or a liability. Citizenship is a very common issue. There are hundreds of people waiting to become citizens of Singapore. Yet there are others who came to the Republic by virtue of their qualifications and are being requested by the authorities at short notice to become citizens of our country. Why is citizenship granted to people who come in here simply because they are qualified and are needed here and their loyalty has not been tested in any way at all? In fact, some cases can be questionable. On the other hand, there are many people staying here for so many years, where their loyalty to Singapore is unquestioned but because of some small mistake in timing, through negligence or through ignorance, they cannot become citizens, and their attempt to become citizens is a failure.

There are many old people who have good financial backing of their children. They have lived in Singapore for a long time but their applications have either been rejected or still under consideration. Why deprive them the privilege of becoming citizens of our country? After all these people have their children to look after them. They are in no way a burden to the State. The Registry would not grant them citizenship, but it is willing to consider the applications of persons who are suitably qualified.

There is also the case of a boy who was born in Singapore and due to a mistake by his parents he was issued with a blue identity card. This boy had completed national service and had applied for citizenship but his application is still under consideration. In the first place, if the authorities had not recognised this boy as a Singapore citizen, then why call him up for national service? I hope the Minister will look into the matter and give early consideration to such cases.

Finally, I wish to know how many applications for citizenship have been granted, how many have been rejected, and how many are still under consideration during the last year.

Sir, there are some applicants whose family roots are in Singapore. The father was born in Singapore; mother was also born in Singapore; even the children were born in Singapore. They have been staying here for a long time and yet they have not been able to get citizenship. But there are cases of foreigners who have been granted citizenship after only five years' stay in Singapore. I am very surprised at this. There are people who have been staying here for 10 years. 15 years or even 20 years, and they still cannot get citizenship. Some people who have stayed here for five years are given citizenship. This is very funny. How did they get their citizenship? I do not know.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I have tabled this amendment knowing full well the futility of entering into any rational discussion on the conditions for citizenship approval. However, I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Hon. Minister if he could enlighten this House as regards the total number of applicants for Singapore citizenship today and, secondly, if he could give us the latest figures of the last few years of the total number of applicants who have been given Singapore citizenship.

As a remark, I just wonder how the Citizenship Registry with just one Division I officer could manage to process the thousands of applications for citizenship. I wonder also whether this, in fact, reflects the concern that we as a Government have over the thousands upon thousands who look forward to approval of their applications.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Member for Sembawang has in his speech repeatedly used the expression "Shonan era", This is not an appropriate expression to use and I would like him to withdraw it arid instead to use "the period of Japanese occupation" which is more appropriate. I state this with good reason. If I remember correctly, Shonan was a term imposed by the Japanese in reference to Singapore during their occupation. "Shonan-to". In those days if anyone in Singapore did not refer Singapore as Shonan-to would be scolded or slapped in the face. So I would r,equest him to withdraw this shameful term.

7.45 p.m.

Mr Lim Guan Hoo: (In Mandarin): Sir, I agree with the Member for Jurong. I feel that the Member for Sembawang ought to withdraw the expression "Shonan". To us the invasion of Singapore by the Japanese is a memory that brings back the feeling of traumatic wounds. Any reference to Singapore as "Shonan" which was a term imposed on the Singapore people by the Japanese would reopen the wound. I wonder if he understands the feelings of the Singaporeans.

The Chairman: I think there is no need in belabouring the point. Shonan is a period which Singapore went through. It is part of our history. So by whatever name we call it, we know what it is. We will leave it at that.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, thank you very much, We can go on to citizenship after the debate on Shonan.

In reply to the Member for Sembawang, let me state that in the interest of the citizens of Singapore as a whole, it is extremely unwise to liberalise the grant of citizenship. The Government's basic policy on citizenship, that is, grant of citizenship, should be a privilege and not as a right, and there should be restriction in the granting of citizenship by taking into account the social and economic problems of the Republic. Further, citizenship must be regarded as something of great value. We cannot give it to anybody who applies for it, just because he applies for it. However, the Government has more recently speeded up the processing and granting of citizenship. This has resulted in more persons being granted citizenship last year. A total of 6.347 applications were approved last year compared to only 3,989 in 1974. I am sure this will gladden the heart of the Member for Sembawang, although in principle nothing has been liberalised.

The Member for Sembawang has quoted cases of two of his constituents who are unable to obtain citizenship. If he had given me the full facts of these two cases earlier. I would be able to give him the full reasons now. However, from the scanty facts he has given, it would appear that both of them do not qualify for citizenship since in the first case the applicant could not produce satisfactory documentary evidence of birth or stay in Singapore, and in the second case, the birth certificate produced was not genuine. May I tell the Member for Sembawang that being allowed to vote during the general elections by mistake does not qualify the person for citizenship.

The Member for Kim Seng asked several questions. May I just reply to him. The total number of citizenship applications received in 1972 to 1975 was 33.666 or an average of 8.420 per year. Many of these were actually re-applications after previous applications had been rejected. In the same period, 1 8.559 applications were approved and 5.070 cases rejected. Others are still being processed or under consideration.

The Member referred to the fact that there is only one Division I post in the Registry of Citizens. According to him, this does not reflect the importance which the Government attached on citizenship matters. I would like to state here that the Registry has an approved establishment of 57 posts, some are mainly involved in the processing of applications, interviewing applicants and so on. But citizenship policy matters, besides being handled by the Registry of Citizens, are dealt with by the senior officers of my Ministry headquarters. Many applications are also considered by the headquarters staff and decided by me. Some cases even go up to the Cabinet for a decision. The Member can therefore be assured that the subject of citizenship is accorded the importance and consideration which it deserves.

Let me turn to the Member for Anson. I am glad that the Member for Anson agrees that the granting of citizenship is a privilege and not a right and that the main basis of grant of citizenship is that the applicant will be a national asset and not a liability. Length of residence is but only one criterion. Loyalty to the State is expected of the citizen. However, if later he proves to be disloyal to the State in any way, his citizenship will be revoked.

With regard to the question whether old people should not be granted citizenship when their children are in a good financial position to support them, my answer is that each case should be treated on its own merit. In such cases we have to be careful to ascertain that the children are not only able to support them but they will also, in fact, do so in the future. They may say that they are in a financial position to support their parents now, but in future they may not be able to. We must therefore be satisfied, for instance, that the motive of grant of citizenship is not to make the old parents after having been granted citizenship, to become eligible for admission to one of our homes for the aged.

The Member quoted the case of a boy who is doing national service and who has yet to acquire citizenship. As I have mentioned earlier, serving national service is one of the, criteria for grant of citizenship. If the Member could supply me with particulars of the case. I will look into it,

The number of applications approved and refused in 1975 was 6,347 and 2,053 respectively. Applications pending as at 31st December, 1975 stood at 30.097 but three-quarters of these are actually re-applications after their previous applications had been refused.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, if a financial guarantee is given, will he get his citizenship?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: That will be one of the factors to be considered.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, having heard the reply from the Minister concerned, I notice that the answer is about the same as given last year except that there has been some improvement in the number of cases approved. So I feel that the Registry has already improved its efficiency in their work.

As regards the two cases I have mentioned, the applicants' qualifications have been accepted for the application in question. The question now is not whether they are eligible to apply because their applications have already been accepted for consideration. Here I have the two relevant letters which I propose to send to the Minister concerned tomorrow for his consideration and approval.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao -

(10) That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of item (b) of subhead BAA 2090.

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao is not here.

The sum of $144,961,430 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $21,152,000 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, since it is only five minutes to Moment of Interruption, with your consent, I suggest that we invite the Minister to report progress now.

Hon. Members indicated assent.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1976 to 31st March, 1977, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.