MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL,1977 TO 31ST MARCH, 1978

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [1st Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

The Chairman: Main and Development Estimates of Singapore for the financial year 1st April, 1977 to 31st March, 1978, contained in Paper Cmd. 3 of 1977. For convenience. I shall take the totals for each head of expenditure in the Main Estimates and the Development Estimates as they appear in the fifth and sixth columns respectively of the Summary of Estimated Expenditure on page 43 of the Paper.

I shall deal first with the heads of expenditure in respect of which amendments stand on the Order Paper Supplement.

Head K -

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head K be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1002*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs P. Govindaswamy, Ivan Baptist and Dr Ong Leong Boon.)

Sir, the Main and Development Estimates allocation for the Ministry of Defence amounts to $908 million. This is a good portion of the total budget provision. Of course, we know that it is important to build our defence capability for our security. For a young and newly emergent country like ours, it is all the more necessary to consolidate our defence so as to protect our independence and territorial integrity.

So far, our national service scheme has been successful, However, as regards training, whether it is proper and adequate and whether our servicemen are being trained to be good soldiers and of good quality are matters for the authority concerned and the officers in charge to exercise constant review.

In the past, I believe we have all heard of unpleasant incidents taking place in the camps or barracks. There were instances where soldiers and officers have quarrelled, leading to tragedy. There was such an incident not long ago where a soldier, because of personal affairs, had gone beyond the bounds of a soldier, Although such instances are rare, it is a matter that worries us. My question is: after two years of military life in the camps whether these youngsters have been taught the proper attitudes towards life, personal behaviour, good discipline, and a civic sense so that they are more disciplined, more matured and better behaved. This is a very important matter that merits the serious attention of all concerned.

I would like to raise three questions to the Minister. First, will the Minister consider abolishing the decision to enlist women into national service, although the actual date has not been fixed? As it is now, we are able to recruit women by the "voluntary and open method". So is it, therefore, necessary for us to conscript our women? I am not a male chauvinist or under-estimating the capacity of our women and girls, but there is nearly a thousand years' history about women's role in military activities. I am sure you have heard of Hua Mu Lan, a girl in ancient China.

The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defence (Dr Goh Keng Swee): Sir, it is not the policy of the Government during this financial year to recruit women into the NSF, nor is there any money provided for such enlistment. Under these circumstances, would the Member be in order to raise this matter which is not provided for in the budget?

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): In that case, I will not touch on it. I think the Minister was perhaps not prepared as to how to answer my question.

Let me raise the second question. It relates to consideration for exemption from national service for those whose families are in financial difficulty. For instance, if the only son in the family is the sole breadwinner, or in the case where two or three brothers are being enlisted at the same time, there should be some arrangement where they can be enlisted for national service consecutively in order to help them in their financial difficulties.

In my meet-the-people sessions in the past I have also been asked to request the Ministry concerned to allow them to opt for part-time police national service, so that for the period of their obligation these youngsters could help their family by earning some money. Some such applications have been rejected which act, I feel. was too stringent or not quite humane. So I would like to ask the Minister to ask the Advisory Committee to exercise more sympathetic consideration for such petitions. Although the Committee comprises representatives from the various quarters of our society, including the industry, public service, higher institutions of learning, and professional circles, I think it would be better to include representatives from the Social Welfare Department as they understand better the plight of a poor family and so can provide the Committee with better grounds for a more sympathetic and proper consideration. What does the Minister think about this?

The third question I would like to raise is about drug-taking incidents in the camps. This is a very serious matter. I would like to ask how many cases of drug-taking have been discovered in the past few years and what measures or action have been taken by the military or camp authority to eliminate this abuse?

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, national service was introduced sometime in 1967. During the initial period a few batches of recruits were sent to the 1st SIR for three months training and were absorbed into the People's Defence Force. Subsequently, after a couple of years when they were performing part-time service, some of these recruits were transferred to the Special Constabulary. There is a standing instruction saying that those affected by national service must compulsorily perform part-time national service for 12 years or until they reach 40 years of age, whichever is the later after having completed full-time national service. I have received complaints from many national service reservists, who had been transferred to the Special Constabulary, that they were told that the period reckoned for part-time national service would commence from the time they were transferred to the Special Constabulary. Can the Minister enlighten the House on this point?

I also understand that there are rumours that the part-time performance of reservists who have reached the age of 40 years has been abolished. Is this true? Could the Minister clarify this point?

Sir, I wonder whether exemption from part-time national service would be considered for a person who has passed the call-up age but who is called up because of his employment in the civil service.

There is the case of a person who wrote to the Central Manpower Base that he had served in the Special Constabulary for a period of six years from 1962 to 1968 and that he had undergone all the basic police training at the Police Academy and that he was in active service during the riots, the civil disturbances and other emergencies during that time. However, due to pressure of shift duties and private studies, he was unable to continue service with the Special Constabulary and he ultimately resigned in 1968. Currently, he is working in a statutory board where his presence is required in times of emergency. Besides having to work on shift duties, he is also pursuing private studies for a promotion. Therefore, he would like to know whether consideration would be given for his past performance. I wonder whether an exception could be made for such cases.

There is another case of a breadwinner of a family who passed away recently. The widow, a housewife now has to look after five children. The eldest-son has been serving full-time national service for the last one year. Can consideration be given for the boy to be discharged from national service, so that he could seek employment to help the family financially? Can the Minister reply to this?

Sir, parents have now more or less accepted the concept of national service. But then I have received numerous complaints from parents that their boys have been spoilt after being enlisted for national service. Many of them indulge in undesirable habits like drinking and smoking which they never knew before they were called up. The Minister may blame the parents for their sons' behaviour. But then we cannot expect the parents to know what is actually happening in the camps. I understand that drinks and cigarettes are sold cheaply in the camps and this could be the reason why the boys indulge in these bad habits. When I say "bad habits". I do not mean that an individual should not drink or smoke. I believe that acquiring these habits at a very young age, and especially in the army, could be considered as anti-social. Basically, even the Government does not encourage these habits and here in the army we find our youths merrily drinking and smoking. I have to say this because in later years if the boys indulge in excessive drinking and smoking and become a nuisance to society, the parents would definitely blame the army. When they drink and smoke, the army would not be run properly also.

Sir, touching on the make-up pay for national service reservists who have been posted to the Army, Special Constabulary and Vigilante Corps, there seems to be some confusion in financial matters. Some get allowances and others get a remuneration, depending on whether he is in the Army, Special Constabulary or the Vigilante Corps. For instance, it is gathered that a national serviceman in the Special Constabulary who has to be on duty outside normal office hours will receive an allowance. He will be permitted to retain this allowance without any deduction from the salary for the period of his Army duty. When he is called up for in-camp training, he will receive a remuneration and not an allowance. And his normal salary will be deducted from the remuneration and paid the difference, whichever is the greater. But those in the Vigilante Corps get an allowance for in-camp training, and their salaries are not affected at all. Why is there no standard rule for the various services? Can the Minister explain?

Sir, when the Ministry issues instructions relating to national service, it does not specify the shift hours; instead it uses a vague term like "normal office hours" which causes confusion to those departments which have shift workers. This results in unnecessary communication with the Central Manpower Base for further information and clarification, especially when money is involved.

I suggest that in future, any instruction issued by the CMPB should be very clear and specific and not vague which may result in unnecessary time and stationery being wasted on communication. Sometimes because of this, the original standing instruction may be distorted.

3.15 p.m.

Mr Ivan Baptist (Potong Pasir): Mr Speaker, Sir, permit me to refer to the Addendum to the Presidential Address at the opening of the First Session of the Fourth Parliament on Tuesday, the 8th of last month. I am referring, in particular, to the submission of the Ministry of Defence standing in the name of the Minister of Defence. Without a doubt. Sir, the citizens of Singapore accept national service as a necessary duty of the young, and they proved this by returning the PAP to power by an overwhelming majority at the general elections of December 1976. The Addendum on Defence stressed this point, and I quote [Hansard, Vol. 36, Col. 21]

'However, since our defence forces have to import nearly all their weapons and equipment, the rising prices of these products impose a severe financial burden. It is therefore necessary to exercise the utmost economy in defence expenditure..'

A committee of Finance and Defence Ministries' officials was appointed in November 1976 to keep watch over expenditure and prune it. The Addendum carries on, and I again quote:

`It will certainly be necessary to trim down manpower establishments and reduce or even abolish vocations which do not contribute much to the combat efficiency of army units.'

It is, therefore, surprising, Sir, to notice that this pruning down of expenditure results in an increase over FY 76 by 6.7% on Manpower Expenditure and by 22.9% on Other Operating Expenditure. This amounts to a total increase of 22.5% in FV 77 when compared to FY 76. In addition, the Development Estimates show an increase of 16.4% over FY 76. If I may refresh the memory of this House, an increase of only 25.4% over FV 75 was tabled for approval about this time last year. I am wondering whether or not this is contradictory to the Addendum to the Presidential Address, or is there some rational explanation as to the state of affairs indicated in the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1977 to 31st March, 1978, under Head K, Ministry of Defence.

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise to raise a matter which I hope the Hon. Minister of Defence will consider. This is in regard to starting some form of compulsory saving scheme or CPF contributions for national servicemen. Sir, I am aware that a good number of our national servicemen are paid reasonably well for their term in national service, particularly those with A' level certificates. I think it is far in excess of the market value that holders of A' level certificates will command outside, either in the public or private sector.

As an example, we know that Officer Cadets receive a sum of $420 per month; a Second Lieutenant $580 per month, and a full Lieutenant about $700 per month. This is a huge sum of money for a young person. What happens is that many of them may not be careful with the way they spend and, therefore, they tend to get used to a lot of money at a rather young age. Once they leave national service, they are imbued with high expectations. I am told this has resulted in certain problems for some young people once they leave national service because when they leave national service and enter society they expect similarly high salaries and, where possible, soft jobs.

I therefore suggest that the Ministry of Defence consider some form of compulsory saving for our national servicemen, maybe in the form of contributions to the Central Provident Fund like other working men. Secondly, for those who intend to pursue a higher education, this saving scheme could help them out during the forthcoming lean years.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: With your permission. Mr Speaker, Sir, perhaps I had best reply to the matters raised under this particular subhead now. First, the Member for Sembawang regarding appeals. He is not satisfied, or rather his constituents are not satisfied with the decisions of the Appeals Board. But I am quite satisfied that fairness has been done. My Parliamentary Secretary is personally responsible for seeing that the Appeals Board's decisions are fair, and he has power to overrule the Appeals Board's decision if he thinks it has been harsh.

The Member for Anson has raised a number of points. some of them under the wrong subhead, particularly matters relating to the Special Constabulary and the Vigilante Corps. These two subjects are administered by the Minister for Home Affairs and he should seek clarification from my colleague.

The Member says that some of his friends have complained that soldiers take to bad habits, such as smoking and drinking. He even thought that we give duty free cigarettes and duty free drinks. We do not give duty free cigarettes. We give duty free beer. But this is the strange thing. The ration for duty free beer is 9 litres per soldier per month. The Units can draw the rations and sell it either in the canteen or in the SAF messes at duty free prices. Although the entitlement is 9 litres per soldier per month, the Units take less than 10% of their entitlement. It averages up to about half a litre per soldier per month. So ours is not a boozing army as I have mentioned to Members before. For other drinks like hard liquor, they have to pay the full price.

The Member for Sembawang has raised the question of drugs. He wants to know what is the drug problem in the SAF. The drug problem in the SAF is just about the same as the drug problem outside the SAF. The Central Narcotics Bureau once made an estimate that about 1% of the adult population of Singapore is hooked on drugs, and it is getting most serious in recent years because they move on from soft drugs like marijuana to heroin. Something like 1% of the adult population is hooked on heroin. It is about more than 1 1/2% for males and rather less than 1/2% for females.

The drug position in the SAF is like this. Soldiers convicted of drug offences - these are mostly heroin cases - and serving detention sentences number 196. 475 soldiers have confessed to being on drugs. 109 soldiers are under close arrest and awaiting court martial if the urine tests turn up positive. That gives a total of 780 soldiers on the record, which is just over 1% of the SAF population.

What measures are we taking? We are taking very energetic measures. Towards the middle of last year it became apparent that this is becoming a very dangerous problem among soldiers. First of all, very stern punishment is necessary. Any soldier caught with a positive urine test gets 18 months' detention for the first offence. Then we recruited a team of full-time counsellors, 34 actually, under the direction of a medical doctor and three social science graduates. They are trying to work on soldiers under detention in getting them out of this habit. In addition, it has been proved necessary to establish our own drug analytical laboratory, because urine samples sent to the Department of Scientific Services take too long to process. We have got one drug laboratory established on the 1st of February. At present we can handle 70 samples per day. Eventually, when new equipment arrives, we will handle 200 samples a day.

It is my intention that every soldier in the SAF will be periodically examined for drug addiction. Drug suspects will be tested every week, so that if they revert and get caught again then they will be sentenced to a much longer term of imprisonment. I will give a full report to Parliament in due course on how successful or otherwise we have been in handling this very vexatious problem.

Now, the Member for Kim Seng. Actually what he has proposed is being implemented. A Defence Committee of Cabinet has agreed that national service officers, who just leave school and want a big pay as he has stated, will have a good portion of their salaries docked into the CPF for the very reasons he has mentioned, i.e, with too much pay they tend to waste their money and have exaggerated ideas of their market value when they leave the army.

3.30 p.m.

The Member for Potong Pasir raised the point about the Defence budget and quoted my Addendum to the President's Address, that in spite of the need for economy there has been a big increase in the Defence budget for this year. Well, this is for the reasons I have mentioned in the Addendum, that hardware is very expensive and we have to pay an awful lot for it. In fact, the reason for this need to economise derives from our purchase of two pieces of equipment for the Air Force, the F-5 supersonic fighter we are buying a squadron and we have to pay $283 million for it. And not only that, we have to pay in advance. 70% of this money will have to be paid before the first aircraft arrives because, for some unfathomable reason, the Pentagon believes that we are very rich. There is also another $50 million for the purchase of a squadron of helicopters, and again we have got to pay most of it in advance. So that makes $333 million, a hefty whack, and as a result of that we have to carry out a very stringent economy drive.

The Member may be interested in some proposals which will be implemented from next month. All battalions. training schools and other units will be placed under rationing for water and electricity. They will be placed under water rationing if we can get the PUB to instal water meters in these places. If their quota for water is up, well that is that.

The object is not so much to save money. I do not think we can save an awful lot of money by rationing petrol, water or electricity, but to drive home to every soldier that they have to save money so that if this economy habit spreads into other spheres, then I think the real savings will come from that.

Sir, I think these are the only main points raised by Members.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister of Defence said that I was wrong. Regarding the national service reservist who was from the Special Constabulary, he has already undergone training. Now that he is working in a statutory board, he has been asked to go for training again. This is unreasonable. Most probably I am wrong, or the Minister is wrong. I do not know.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: This looks to me a peculiar case. I suggest the Member gives me the full facts of this case and we can go into it and see if there is any injustice. I doubt there is. But if there is an injustice, it will be set right.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Minister has given us a somewhat unsatisfactory answer. Nevertheless. I would beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head K be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1101.

May I ask what useful functions the Outward Bound School is involved in? I remember a few years ago this school was well known for producing people with leadership qualities. The training offered was such that those who went through its programmes or courses learned a great deal. Of late, it seems to me this school is lagging behind in the production of leadership material, It is this leadership material that we require very badly in our community centres, schools, vocational institutes, and tertiary institutions. Could we not send students and teachers in the various schools, institutions and tertiary institutions to the Outward Bound School so that we can have a corps of good leaders?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, it is true that community centres do not send many of their staff or their youth leaders to the Outward Bound School. For instance, between January 1969 and December last year, 4,642 persons went through the Outward Bound School courses. 2,500 were from Government departments and only 32 were from the community centres. This is not the fault of the Outward Bound School. Community centres must be urged to send more of their staff to these courses which are pretty useful and have been acknowledged by many people as being useful training.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the explanation of the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ahmad Haleem (Telok Blangah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head K be reduced by $10 in respect of item (b) of subhead A.AA 3020.

I notice in the Estimates that the sum allocated for the Junior Flying Club has been slightly reduced. I am wondering why this is so. Is it because of a lack of support for the Junior Flying Club, or has there been some form of cost reduction? I would also like to know what results have the Junior Flying Club obtained in respect of their members graduating and becoming pilots in our Singapore Air Force?

Talking about our Air Force, national servicemen and officers who have completed their national service have joined our universities. I feel that we should get undergraduates in the universities to form a University Air Squadron where the SAF could continue to give them pilot training so that they could obtain their private pilot licence, and perhaps even sitting for a commission and be paid whilst studying in the university, and signing a bond. After graduating from the university they can go on with their pilot training and be useful members of our Singapore Air Force.

I believe that training can be done during weekends and vacations. They can be attached to the various active squadrons where further training is available. For those who do not make the grade in flying and airmanship training, they can be made useful in groundwork, such as air traffic controllers. I wonder whether the Hon. Minister can enlighten me on this.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, the Junior Flying Club has really proved its worth in many ways. It is extremely popular among school boys and indeed among school girls as well. The membership now stands at 1,571, of which 337 have the basic academic and physical requirements for flying in the Air Force, The others can take part in aeromodelling and also enjoy facilities of the Club, such as joy rides, picnics and so on.

As regards university undergraduates, there was a University Air Squadron in existence years ago but it was abolished in 1975 when the squadron was merged into the Junior Flying Club. Since then, no less than 39 undergraduates have been enjoying the facilities of the Club.

The real purpose of the Club is not only to increase and spread enthusiasm for flying among young boys and girls and undergraduate students but also to give practical training to young people who want to test their ability and aptitude for training as Combat air force pilots. Since 1971, 276 school boys and girls have been given flying training lessons and a good number of them have obtained their private pilot licences (PPL). Of the boys, 83% of those who have obtained the PPL have applied to join the Air Force and a good number of them have succeeded in their applications and have done exceedingly well at the Air Force training school. In fact, the wash-out rate, as it is known in the Air Force, is extremely low among ex-members of the Junior Flying Club. So this is a very worthwhile enterprise.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, in view of the Hon. Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head K be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 4002*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Teo Chong Tee.)

Sir, I am bringing up this matter in relation to national service because of the importance of a sense of concern and good communication between Singaporeans, in this case between Singaporeans in the Singapore Armed Forces.

Since national service was started, its organisation has improved greatly as those in charge have been quick to react positively wherever the occasion demanded adjustments and improvements. This point has already been repeated in this House on another sub-head. Young people as well as their parents have come to regard national service as an essential measure of government and a familiar feature of life. In my constituency and in other places when I enquire about experience of national service. I find young people saying how they have found it exciting or uneventful, how they have taken it in their stride, and I come across parents who comment on how well their children have appeared physically after training and how much better disciplined they are, and so on, in such neutral or favourable terms, contrary to some other indications we have had in this House.

On the other hand, I have been occasionally vexed by reports indicating that the relationship between servicemen may well too often be characterised by a sort of careless nonchalance, indifference and, worse still (even if in cases that do not occur frequently), extreme antagonism. At the very least. we have a frank indication from the Minister of Defence himself in the remark he made recently that there seemed to be a camaraderie among members of the PDF battalion which was not often found in other army units.

3.45 p.m.

Sir, the SAF receives into National Service, Singaporeans who have had their minds and attitudes and ways of behaviour set in the circumstances of their upbringing. The Singaporean is a rugged individualist, prone more than less frequently to place his own concerns, convenience even comfort at quite a premium, He chafes under discipline. Young officers, given rank, may all too easily allow this to get to their head. Yet for the sake of morale, the SAF has to concern itself with the problem of improving the sense of camaraderie prevailing in all units.

Problems of indifference we can see in other armies. You will frequently find jokes about this sort of relationship. If I might be allowed to recount one. It appears that an army doctor was examining a prospective serviceman, "Sit down in that chair", ordered the doctor sternly. The prospective serviceman obeyed. "A 1", cried the doctor. "Next". "What?", exclaimed the recruit, "why, you have not even looked at me." "Well", said the doctor, "you heard me tell you to sit down, you saw the chair and you had enough intelligence to carry out the order. Move on, soldier!"

Sir, the Minister has given indication that our medical examination is a serious matter, for he has said that exemptions on medical grounds are granted only if the person is certified by a medical board, consisting of, I think, three doctors. Yet there have been cases of persons entering national service, who have physically and emotionally in a few instances not been able to bear up in the stresses and strains of soldiering. In isolated instances the results have been grave, and in other instances could have been graver, as reports and descriptions in the newspapers have indicated.

I would like to suggest that there are cases where parents correctly feel they have good reasons for entertaining some apprehension about a condition that may have arisen regarding the health or well-being of their son in national service. In such instances such parents would feel immensely relieved if they had access to a person or committee with authority to consider facts placed before them and to order immediate action. Such early action may well avert unpleasant consequences resulting from lack of sufficient attention being given to the special needs of some servicemen.

We want to train fighters, and the army is a big place; but wherever we can introduce a more personal touch, we should try to do so. I have observed that the Minister of Defence is carrying a copy of Sun Tzu. Perhaps a quotation from Sun Tzu would not be out of place and I hope I have not lifted it out of context. The Griffith translation says "Command them (troops) with civility and imbue them uniformly with martial ardour and it may be said that victory is certain". The Minister's copy has this translation. "When an army prove amenable to civil treatment as well as to military discipline, they will surely become invincible". (gu ling zhi yi wen, qi zhi yi wu, shi wei bi qu.) ( )

Finally, Sir, I would like to make an enquiry regarding the dissemination of the code of conduct: what methods are used, and what improvements may be contrived, if any. Incidentally, Sir, I know that the lines that follow the quotation I have given may contradict what I have said, but that is up to the Minister to make the point.

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Sir, a small nation like Singapore has been able to build up a strong defence force so rapidly to replace the vacuum created by the withdrawal of the British, Australian, and New Zealand Forces. The achievements and success are due largely to the able leadership and farsightedness of the Minister of Defence.

Today, national service has become an aspect of our national life, which is here to stay. Thousands of our young men have served it with pride and honour, but this cannot be said of the many who are presently serving. Misconduct on the part of some of these soldiers when they are out of their camps is a breach of discipline that will undoubtedly tarnish the high reputation of our Armed Forces. In many public areas such as bus stops, food centres, cinema halls, to name a few, one can find national servicemen in groups of two or more people, in sloppily dressed military uniforms mingling with the crowd and misbehaving in the eyes of the public. The abusive language they use to curse shylessly and freely at each other either jokingly or seriously in public places are signs of bad upbringing of these young soldiers, in so far as their discipline is concerned. Uncalled-for remarks are being complimented to young girls who walk past.

Apparently, once they are out of their camps, they are just like birds out of their cages. Possibly, they just want to let off steam.

I do not think this is a pleasant thing for them to do while still in their military uniform. Nevertheless, it has happened and I am sure it is still happening. The discipline of these young men leaves much to be desired.

I hope that the Ministry will look into this matter more seriously as the good name of the Armed Forces is at stake. These may be isolated incidents involving a minority group but, whatever the number, their misconduct in public places is definitely affecting the good reputation of our Armed Forces. If this is allowed to go on in Singapore unchecked, the high reputation that the Armed Forces has attained will be tarnished not only locally but overseas as well.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, the Member for Katong has been regaling us with a shaggy-dog story about how doctors dispose of recruits. It is about the same level as the Member for Anson who said that his relative's children joined the Army to smoke and drink.

Actually a recruit goes through not just one but two medical examinations. I have been advised by my Manpower Division that each examination lasts a minimum of 75 minutes for those who have no defects either of eye, foot or whatever. For those who have to go for a further test, do so because their eyesight is not good, or something is wrong with their blood, leg or chest, and the examination lasts 110 minutes. If the Member for Katong has any doubt, he is free to go to the Manpower Division at any time to see how the medical examinations are carried out.

But he has raised a serious point about soldiers who break down under stress and commit all kinds of unseemly conduct. In this morning's Straits Times there is a picture of a half-naked soldier on the sixth floor of a Housing Board flat threatening to jump down. This is quite a familiar experience in the SAF. We call them "para-suicides" - they threaten to commit suicide but actually they never do. The favourite forms of para-suicides are consumption of insect repellents, soap solutions, Brasso; sometimes even pins and needles, but that is rather rare. When para-suicides consume these things, they make sure that people are around so that help is immediately forthcoming. At one time, and acting on the advice of psychologists, we thought we should treat them rather gently; for instance, giving them psychiatric treatment and changing their vocation from a hard one to a soft one. The result was that the para-suicide rate doubled. So now after each act of para-suicide, a board of officers goes into the details to see whether there is justification for further punishment, and there usually is. These people break down under stress. They cannot cope with their work, and they commit these acts partly as a means of protest and partly as a method of drawing attention to what they consider as their "distressful" situation.

We have been following this over the years. This happens not only in the SAF but also in other armies of the world, in fact, all armies of the world. The rate of para-suicide among our national servicemen in the army last year was 55, about one a week. This works out to 128 per 100,000 of population. The rate of para-suicides for other armies, the Member for Katong might be interested to know; in the American Army for the year 1969/70, the para-suicide rate was 392; in the Australian Army for the year 1971/72 it was 225. The figures are not strictly comparable because definitions are not precisely the same. But it does show that what happens in our army does happen in other armies in more or less the same proportions. In fact, the suicide rate in the SAF is always the same as that in the American Army. The suicide rate among soldiers last year was 15.3 per 100,000 in 1976, In the American Army it was 15.6 between the years 1959 and 1964.

What is the solution? Perhaps if there is some way of testing young men to see whether or not they could stand up to the stresses of army training, this would be the best way. But so far as I know, no country has devised this kind of test. In any event, if we apply this kind of test, there is no way of ensuring that those who go through it might not be malingering. The problem is a real one in the army and it is unavoidable when you handle large numbers of soldiers. I think I have dealt with the points raised by the Member for Katong.

The Member for Changi objects to young men in uniform making catcalls at girls or whistling at them. Not so many years ago he himself was a young man. I do not know whether he did not engage in this kind of activity. I would hate to think that our youth are so lacking in red blood corpuscles that they do not do these things. However, if it is really serious, the Member should get the details, time and place of occurrence, and there is a good chance that we will catch the culprit; but it must really not be harmless remarks made in good fun and clean spirit which probably the girls themselves might not object to.

4.00 p.m.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, there is another point regarding the question I asked about the dissemination of the code of conduct.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Yes. The Member is interested in this because he has played a prominent part in the drafting of this code of conduct. It was through him that I contacted a Jesuit priest who made the first draft. I am afraid the teaching of the code of conduct in the SAF leaves much to be desired, partly because it is taught by officers who go through it year in and year out and not to a particularly inspiring class. In one case, we found that a soldier put a transistor radio under his cap during this code of conduct lesson. We are trying to find ways of improving it.

Regarding the humane treatment of soldiers, I agree completely with what the Member for Katong said, particularly as he was able to back Sun Tzu for his views. But I would also like to quote another part from Sun Tzu.

Mr Conceicao: Which page?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Page 83. First in Chinese. He said:

Hou er bu neng shi ( )

Ai er bu neng ling ( )

Luan er bu neng zhi ( )

Bi ru qiao zi ( )

Bu ke yong ye ( )

It means roughly that if you are over-indulgent to your soldiers, you lose command and control over them; then they become like spoilt children and are totally useless. So we must find a balance between humane treatment and over-indulgence.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I just want to make some clarification. [Interruption] I am afraid I am not as adept as the Minister of Defence. The point is that I did relate that shaggy-dog story but that was not in any sense trying to make fun of the SAF. I did say that the medical examination was thoroughly carried out. I would like to thank the Minister very much for comparing me with the Member for Anson because I have a high regard and respect for him because of his performance in this House.

With that, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $799,334,410 for Head K ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $109,600,000 for Head K ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head L -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1003* (*The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Ivan Baptist and Dr Ong Leong Boon.)

Sir, provision has been allocated for improvements in nearly every hospital. May I know what improvements are to be carried out in these hospitals, and how would these improvements be felt when there is an acute shortage of medical personnel at the moment?

Sometime ago, there was mention of a zoning system for the hospitals. I wonder how this is working out. I gather that the Singapore General Hospital still treats a lot of cases from other zones. Is this system really workable?

Sir, the Health Ministry is aware of the plight of those who are over 60 years old, as they are more vulnerable to illness because of the degeneration process. Though they constitute 6.6% of the population, they comprise 15.5% of all hospital admissions and 27.4% of long-staying patients. The Ministry itself is aware that this group of people fall sick off and on and that hospital bills have to be paid whenever medical attention is necessary.

Old people in most cases are not well-off like the others. The marginal utility of money for them is great. With the present high cost of living, medical bills are quite often a burden to them. It is a fact that a general reduction of hospital charges will not be possible. But I wonder whether a concession for the aged would be considered. I know of many old people who do not consult doctors because of the heavy charges. Will the Minister look into this matter?

Sir, there is a shortage of male nurses or manpower in certain hospitals or clinics. Just to quote an incident. An emergency call was put through Control requesting for an ambulance for an orthopaedic case. The call was diverted to Siglap Orthopaedic Hospital since the accident occurred in that area. At present the ambulance at this centre is manned by a driver, an attendant and a nurse, who are on stand-by duty. What is alarming is how could these three people handle a heavily-built person from a high rise flat?

However, in this home accident case, a heavily built man weighing 200 lbs, fractured his leg and had to be carried down from the fourth storey. When the ambulance came, the driver stood by the ambulance, the attendant carried the stretcher and the nurse followed him up to the flat where the accident occurred. They had a tough time carrying the patient onto the stretcher. Then there was the problem of how to carry this patient down the flight of stairs. The nurse could not do much and had to ask for help from the neighbours. But there was not a man around to help, as all the men had gone to work. So unfortunately the nurse and an old lady from a neighbouring flat had to carry this patient to the waiting ambulance. The question is: why is a trained male nurse not provided in all ambulances?

Sir, again there are complaints of inadequate transport facilities for patients referred by specialist clinics to the major hospitals. There have been instances where patients who have been attended to by Government doctors in specialist clinics are referred for admission to a major hospital. A patient arrives at the clinic at about 8.30 a.m. and after consulting the doctor at about 9.00 a.m. he is referred to a major hospital. The staff at the clinic then summons for an ambulance, and this is where the long wait starts. The ambulance arrives sometimes at about 11.30 a.m. If the patient needs an ambulance badly, other means of transport is provided, in which case he has got to be uncomfortably transported. Having arrived at the hospital and by the time he goes through the administrative process for admission, it would be about 1 p.m. Thus, he may have to skip his lunch. Some patients have to go without lunch and in some cases, they would have already missed their breakfast, as they have to be at the clinic before 8.00 a.m. to beat the rush. In most cases, investigations have revealed that there is a shortage of vehicles to immediately cater for admitting patients. This has inconvenienced many patients due to the frustration caused by having to wait for medical attention.

Sir, at the Maternal and Child Health Clinic and also at other outpatient clinics, whenever a resident doctor is not available, the doctor on duty is normally summoned by the staff of the clinic and he takes a long time to arrive. This is because of the shortage of doctors which seems to be a perpetual problem. Last year, 100 doctors resigned. What is the Minister going to do? He will have to employ more doctors. I admit it is difficult to get the doctors but we should stop them from migrating to other countries, Meanwhile, the patients normally small children and toddlers, start to cry for a considerable time at the clinic. Can something be done to summon a doctor early?

Another point I would like to mention is that generally the wards and toilets in most of our hospitals are filthy and at times vulgar scribblings are found. I wonder whether checks are carried out to see that all the wards and public toilets in the hospitals are kept clean. Sir, most probably all the toilets are cleaned by the time I filed in my amendment to speak on this subject.

I have heard comments from nurses that while they are expected to present a neat and tidy look, the uniforms supplied to them are generally below standard. This is probably due to the acceptance of a cheap tender. Even the shoes are not up to standard. Some of the nurses, therefore, have to sew their own uniforms. Alternatively, why do we not provide them with a uniform allowance instead of supplying them? The Ministry could give them a uniform allowance of, say, $100. It is better that they make their own uniforms.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, tuberculosis is an infectious disease common to man and certain animals. In 1960 the PAP Government initiated the programme to ensure that the incidence level of this disease was suppressed. The Tuberculosis Control Unit was set up aiming at, among other things, active case-finding and adequate treatment for all tuberculosis victims discovered and immunisation of all children. The BCG vaccination programme covers over 90% of all infants in Singapore. This is indeed a laudable achievement.

However, Sir, from the figures of the 1975 Annual Report of the Ministry of Health on specified notifiable diseases, of which tuberculosis is one, there is no significant drop in the number of tuberculosis notifications over the last six years. In 1971, 3,407 cases were notified; 1972, 3,109; 1973, 3,037; 1974, 3,451; and 1975, 3,097. They have been hovering on the 3,000-plus mark, and one wonders why such a situation exists when in addition to the Tuberculosis Control Unit we have SATA.

What is the role of SATA in relation to the Tuberculosis Control Unit? Is SATA performing as well as to be expected? For that matter, is the Tuberculosis Control Unit performing an admirable task? The figures speak for themselves, Sir, What is most worrying, Sir, is the fact that most employers utilise SATA to check the pulmonary condition of their workers and SATA. I believe, does not go into the treatment of tuberculosis. How many cases of active pulmonary lesions have been referred by SATA to the Tuberculosis Control Unit for treatment? What is SATA's grant from Government, and are we getting the best from SATA? These are bothersome questions that must be answered. I hope some active and positive steps will be taken to ensure a drastic drop in the Tuberculosis figures in the near future.

Mr Speaker, Sir, sometime in October last year it was reported that more than 30 people died in the United States of America of heart or lung diseases after receiving swine-flu vaccination. Could the House be enlightened as to whether the Ministry of Health did purchase such vaccine? If so, at what cost, and whether the vaccine was used and its effect. How long will this vaccine retain its potency if kept unused? And in the light of what took place in the United States, will the Ministry use the vaccine at all? If not, what does it propose to do with the stock?

4.15 p.m.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, where credit is due, credit should be given. I think the Ministry of Health has seen more changes over the last two years than the ten-year period previously. I therefore disagree with some expressions made here that things have not improved. Actually things have improved. They are moving. However, there still remains some needling problems which I believe are being taken care of.

Sir, we have been reminded every so often that costs of medical services, medical treatment and hospitalisation, have been increasing by something like 12% per annum. We see that this year the Ministry's estimated expenditure is somewhere in the region of $187 million and development estimates at $62 million. This, therefore, places the expenditure for the Health Ministry fourth after Finance, Defence and Education. Coupled with this is the increasing expectation of our people for better and more sophisticated medical attention. I therefore feel that somehow things are not going to be that easy for people to seek treatment in the future, considering the rather nominal charges that have been levied to-date. I would therefore request the Hon. Minister for Health to enlighten this House if his Ministry is considering any possible hike in medical fees in the near future and, if so, what form it will take.

The second point on which I wish to seek clarification is in regard to a newspaper report that the Health Ministry is considering classifying wards into five categories. At the present moment we have three, and I cannot see any real reason for this further classification which, I think, may just add on to the confusion.

Another matter which I would like to raise is in respect of the construction of a convalescent or nursing home which will serve more as a half-way house for total patient care. As correctly emphasised, the present hospitals are to cater for acute medical attention and treatment. But even with the decentralisation of our hospitals, we still get a good number of long-staying patients who clog up acute beds. These cases are not fit enough to be discharged from hospital because they are not independent enough to be at home. There are many such problem cases which we see in hospital routines everyday. I would therefore ask the Ministry to consider setting up these convalescent homes which can be run rather cheaply, requiring little medical attention but more nursing care. I appreciate the fact that the Home Nursing Foundation has been established. But I think that caters, only for a specific type of home nursing care. We are aware of many medical problems, for example, patients with stroke who tend to lie in hospital for weeks and sometimes months; surgical problems of patients with diabetes and those who are amputees and are not able to go home early. On top of that, we have the multiple-injured patients who cannot possibly be sent home in the 20th storey of a HDB flat. In view of these problems I sincerely suggest to the Hon. Minister that some consideration be given for the setting up of such a hospital.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission if I may pick the point raised by the Member for Anson with regard to the shortage and recruitment of doctors in the hospitals. I would just like to make `the suggestion to the Hon. Minister for Health that in future medical students graduating from the School of Medicine should compulsorily be made to serve in the hospitals, say, for a period of five years.

The Minister for Health (Dr Toh Chin Chye): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I just take up the specific points raised by Members of the House before I enter into a general statement, particularly with regard to staffing the hospitals with doctors. The Member for Anson has stated that we are spending money to improve hospitals and he has enquired whether we have adequate doctors to man these hospitals. I would like to explain that improvements which we are going to make to the hospitals will amount to only $9 million, and they are intended for old hospitals, such as the Tan Tock Seng Hospital, Alexandra Hospital, Kandang Kerbau Hospital and Woodbridge Hospital. All these hospitals were built before the war. I have visited all the hospitals but I must confess that I have not made an exploration into public toilets. If the Member for Anson reports that the toilets are in a disgraceful state, then I must say that it might be a good idea if he carries out an education campaign among the users of public toilets so that they do the right thing in the right place. However. I shall bring this matter to the attention of the Medical Superintendents and the secretaries in the hospitals so that public toilets will be used for what they are intended to be.

The Member for Anson also mentioned that the Maternal and Child Health clinics are understaffed. Strangely enough. I hear from the Member for Toa Payoh that his Maternal and Child Health Clinic is irrelevant because, as a result of a very successful family planning campaign, there are very few mothers taking their children to the Maternal and Child Health Clinic at Toa Payoh. And he is requesting that this clinic be converted into an outpatient department. It is true that in the past the Maternal and Child Health Clinics were run separately from the Outpatient departments and from the school services. Because of this set-up, the utilisation of manpower was not optimum, and last year we integrated the Maternal and Child Health Clinics and the school services together with the Outpatient departments so that we can make full use of the staff. In this way we hope to be able at least for the next three years to overcome the problem of shortage of doctors.

The ambulance services will be integrated by April or May of this year after a discussion between my Ministry and the Ministry of Social Affairs. In future the public need ring only one number and they will be able to get a public ambulance provided by the Fire Brigade. There will be a distinct improvement in the ambulance services, Moreover. these ambulances will be controlled by radio so that there will be constant contact between the ambulances and the Accident and Emergency Departments in the hospitals. However, with regard to ambulances carrying patients from one hospital to another hospital, I would say that after the integration the load on hospital ambulances will be eased and therefore patients need not have to wait that long if they have to be transported from one hospital to another for specialist treatment.

The Member for Potong Pasir has mentioned about the prevalence of tuberculosis cases. For his information, there were 4,711 cases in 1965 and 2,815 cases in 1976. If we were to calculate the rate per thousand population, they work out to 250 in 1965 and 124 in 1976. This means that the rate has gone down by 50.6% in 12 years. So there has really been no increase in the number of tuberculosis cases. The reason why we are still seeing a significantly large number of tuberculosis cases is that tuberculosis is prevalent among that generation which has never received BCG vaccination. BCG vaccination was introduced in Singapore only in the late 195Os and it is to be expected that the older generation will be carrying tuberculosis and spreading it to those who are at risk. So it will be many more years before tuberculosis disappears entirely from Singapore.

SATA is a separate organisation. It has no connections with the Ministry of Health. It receives a subsidy of $35,000 from the Ministry of Social Affairs. I am told that operations of SATA have now expanded to cover heart and chest diseases. However, SATA is bound to notify the Ministry of Health of tuberculosis cases that it comes across, SATA, like any other private practitioner, is entitled to treat tuberculosis cases.

With regard to his question on swine-flu vaccine, the Ministry has ordered several thousand doses of vaccines, but they have not yet arrived. Off the cuff, I think that the total cost would come to about $600,000. The number of doses ordered has been calculated to provide, first, for those who are working in essential services. If there is a demand by members of the public, then more doses will be ordered but they will have to pay at about $5 per dose. The vaccine that we have ordered will offer protection against swine-flu, Hongkong flu and Victoria `A' flu. It is a tri-valent vaccine. When the vaccine arrives, we will first vaccinate national servicemen because they live together in camps and are very likely to spread influenza among themselves and to their families when they return home from camp.

4.30 p.m.

In response to the Member for Kim Seng as to whether there will be any increase in medical charges. I must say that this is being looked into. In the first instance, we are studying the rationale for an increase in dental charges. As of this moment, Members are aware that the Ministry is charging only $4 per patient per treatment. This, of course, leads to pressure in the demand for treatment in the Ministry's Dental Department. For a charge of $4, the dental surgeon has to spend probably half an hour on a patient. This is patently absurd. So we are looking into the matter to vary the charges, according to the type of treatment that is to be provided as well as according to the time that has to be spent on a particular patient. When there is any increase in dental or medical charges, we will announce them in this House.

The newspapers have got hold of a story that we are contemplating on introducing five classes of wards. It is a true story. As of this moment, there are only three classes - A class for which we charge $60 per day. B class $30 per day and C class $4. There is an enormous gap between $4 and $30 and $30 and $60. With successful family planning and greater acceptance that two children are enough, more parents are anxious that they and their children receive the best medical care. Doctors and the nurses at the Kandang Kerbau Hospital have been plagued with requests from C class patients, even B class patients, to be lodged in A class wards. The number of requests amounts to about eight to 1 2 per day. I believe that $60 per day may be too high for some middle income groups, and likewise $30 may be too high for some working class people. But bearing in mind that there is increasing affluence, and there has been a rise in wages or income among the population, we have decided to introduce a second A class ward and a second B class ward so that a patient can pay according to a progressive scale of charges. This. I think, is fairer than the present system where there is an enormous quantum jump from $30 B class to $60 A class and from $4 C class to $30 B class.

The C class ward will be intended primarily for those who really cannot afford to pay, and I think it is fair that the people of Singapore should be conscious that medical costs have gone up by 300% in the last five years, or about 1.15% of the GNP in 1975, and therefore part of the cost will have to be paid for.

On the Member's suggestion that we should open a nursing or convalescent home for stroke and other chronic patients. I regret that our studies indicate that it is going to be very difficult to do so because we have discovered from the experience of the United Kingdom that nursing homes or even homes for the aged are very expensive to run as compared to treating them as outpatients. In 1970, the expenditure spent by the British Government on in-patients was �293 million. On outpatients �24 million. On home nursing only �12 million. But the cost of running homes for the aged shot up to �53 million. And presumably the same economic rules will apply to us if we try to run homes for the chronic sick. Worse than that, I am afraid that in future years we are going to face a labour shortage. Mindef is already facing that problem. It has announced the need to recruit women into non-combatant national service and maybe in 10 or 15 years' time we may not even find the people who want to work in convalescent homes or in nursing homes for the chronic sick. This is a nagging problem. I am already finding it difficult to recruit people who will want to work, let us say, in Woodbridge Hospital. Woodbridge Hospital is intended to house those who are mentally ill. But those who are mentally ill have become geriatric cases. From a state of mental illness they have advanced to a state of mental senility. So Woodbridge Hospital is really a combination of a home for the aged as well as a home for the mentally ill. Doctors in particular are very reluctant to work in Woodbridge Hospital, and that is why my sympathies and my encouragement go to those who are prepared to take on a job which is unpopular and not at all very attractive, because working in a home like that does not provide an outlet and encourage a doctor to leave the Ministry to enter into private practice.

We have therefore decided to concentrate on home nursing as explained in the Addendum to the President's Address. The Home Nursing Foundation will deal with patients referred to by hospital doctors in the first instance, and it is part of primary care service. This is one sector which we hope to expand and on which money will be spent. More nurses will be recruited for this particular aspect of home nursing service.

Lastly, let me come to the vexing problem raised by the Member for Anson and the Member for Punggol on the shortage of doctors. I am afraid that there are many factors relating to the exodus of doctors from the Ministry of Health, and it is a problem which requires some degree of analysis. I would like to make it quite clear that we should make a distinction between doctors who migrate and leave Singapore and doctors who leave the Ministry of Health to enter private practice. Members may be aware or recollect that the Ministry of Defence last month advertised that two of their doctors holding the rank of Captain deserted national service by absconding overseas. Both of them were doctors trained in foreign universities and, therefore, were registrable abroad, one in Canada and one in the UK. They did not therefore require certificates of good standing from the Ministry of Defence or the Singapore Medical Council in order to register abroad. This made their flight from Singapore easier.

The Member for Delta will recollect that in July last year he questioned me on the number of Singapore doctors who were registered in foreign countries. (Hansard, dated 23.7.76, cols. 983-5). I could not then give him an accurate answer but provided the House with information on the number of certificates issued from 1973 to 1976. I have since examined the problem and discovered that it is not obligatory under the written law for such certificates of good standing to be issued at all. Furthermore, such certificates have been issued freely without the applicant providing evidence that he is of good standing during his period of practice. In fact, every doctor who has just finished his housemanship if he asks, will be automatically given a Certificate of Good Standing. This, of course, is an extraordinary position. I feel that in future applicants will have to prove that they are of good standing, and I do not see how good standing can be proved unless the applicant has at least three years of practice, either in the private or public sector, to show his competency. A Certificate of Good Standing as I see it, is like a testimonial, very much like one given on behalf of a person by his referee to a prospective employer. I can say from experience that not all referees write good testimonials. Any doctor who wishes to register overseas can produce his own Certificate of Registration in Singapore. But we are going beyond our obligations to issue so-called Certificates of Good Standing to every applicant.

Let me now come to this problem of doctors who move out of the Ministry of Health into private practice, because it does hurt the Ministry. I think I ought to expound a little. There are many reasons why doctors move out. Some of the major reasons which have been listed by private practitioners who once upon a time worked in the public sector are:- Job is not challenging. No opportunity for promotion. Poor physical working environment. Poor salary Poor staff relationship. Inability to get requested postings. These are the major reasons. The other reasons are that they have got more freedom and that they are able to do other business. Obviously, we cannot satisfy anyone or everyone because of the numerous reasons that have been given.

However, let me deal with some of these reasons. In the case of salaries and promotions, I would like to say this for the information of Members of the House. In the Soviet Union doctors are paid less than the ordinary industrial worker. Doctors are paid 120 roubles per month. The industrial worker is paid 162 roubles per month because he is the person who produces the goods. And the rate of inflation of retail prices has been kept at 2% in the USSR. I am not suggesting that Singapore can operate like the USSR because we are an open economy. There is a free market here and we operate on free market rules. But bearing in mind that expenditure for the health services has increased by 300% in five years, and now our health expenditure is as high as 1.15% of the GNP, I think it is very difficult indeed to satisfy doctors or to match doctors' salaries with what they can earn as private practitioners. By the time a Chinese newspaper editor comes to the conclusion that the private practitioner can earn two to 10 times that of a Government doctor, I do not see how it is possible for the Minister for Finance to agree that the immediate solution to the shortage of doctors in the Ministry of Health is to proportionately increase their salaries. It will lead to a demand for similar increases among other professional staff - the lawyers, the architects, the engineers, the accountants and so on.

4.45 p.m.

On this score, therefore, I can say that little can be done but on promotion something can be done. I am in sympathy with those doctors who have worked for many years in the Ministry of Health. I think they deserve consideration for promotion although they may not have a post-graduate qualification. I am convinced that medicine is still an art acquired through experience and medicine relies on clinical judgement, which again is based on experience. Therefore, by virtue of this experience, I believe that those with eight years' service deserve consideration for promotion regardless of the fact they do not have a higher qualification. After all many civil service administrators have been promoted not because they have a Ph.D or any other higher university degree but because of their experience and their personal capability. I think, likewise, the same criterion should be applied to doctors. However, this does not mean that we are discouraging doctors who wish to improve their knowledge and learning by taking higher examinations. On the contrary, the present practice of awarding doctors with allowances, if they hold a higher qualification, should be continued.

On the question of poor staff relationship, this is a point which I am afraid the Minister is in no position to handle. Staff relationship has got to do with doctors and doctors. Some doctors are soloists. You will notice that some doctors who go into private practice do not practise as a group but practise solo. So also, I feel that such people will not fit into a team in a hospital because in a hospital doctors are required to work as a team. Once they are in a team there is a hierarchy. The junior doctor or medical officer has to take orders from the Registrar, who takes orders from the Senior Registrar, and who in turn takes orders from the Consultant, and so on. There is a "hen pecking" order. It is very much like what you get in the Singapore Armed Forces.

I am concerned indeed that the man at the top should be sound headed and competent so that he can hold his team together. I would be very worried indeed if we do not try to bring up a generation of gurus or teachers who can collect around them disciples. because it is through their leadership that a tradition can be built in the hospitals. If each doctor looks after his own interest, I am afraid all medical traditions will disappear. It is not the private sector or the private medical practitioner who is setting tradition in Singapore, or standards if I may add. It is those who work in the hospitals, in the University units, who have a very large responsibility for collecting disciples around them, for building a medical school. And you can only do that if there are good gurus. So long as we search for good gurus and as long as there is hope that we can find good gurus, I think they ought to be duly rewarded.

But I am afraid doctors are difficult persons to deal with, like lawyers. You know, lawyers never agree with each other. So also, doctors rarely agree with their diagnoses or even their treatments. That is why both lawyers and doctors have one thing in common - plenty of words.

The other reason why they leave is that the job is not challenging and that they are unable to get a requested posting. I have discovered that doctors have been posted by computers. I believe this is not a clever idea. For one thing, the man who did the programming had left the Ministry. Circumstances have changed and there is nobody to change the programme. So the computer is operating on old yardsticks for a new generation of doctors. So wrong people are being posted to the wrong places. For instance, when I visited Woodbridge Hospital I was greeted by a young medical officer. Far from smiling at me, he grimly told me "I want another posting." Looking into the complaints made on the inability to get the right posting, I have suggested to my officers that henceforth the posting of doctors will be made according to where vacancies occur, so that when a person applies for a job he knows what he is in for. I would rather have happy doctors working in the right places than reluctant doctors in the service, because they will demoralise the whole service. These are the gripers and grumblers who will collect around them dissidents and who keep on pressing home the point that there is no job satisfaction. A doctor is a doctor. If a doctor cannot find satisfaction in his job, then obviously he has chosen the wrong profession.

If I were given the responsibility of having to build a completely new medical school in a completely new country, I would insist that all those who aspire to enter medical school should do a spell of nursing for two years. As it is, entering medical school is like first passing your GCE "O" Level, then the "A" level, then the first MBBS and then the second MBBS: a series of passing examinations. Medical students have little concept that their profession is a vocation and even among nurses there is a 20% dropout during the training period. I am quite sure that if we ask those who wish to be trained as doctors to do a spell in nursing, some of them will change their minds after they have gone through a period of nursing.

I am more particularly concerned because last year 50% of medical students in the first year are girls. So this is going to pose a genuine problem, not only for my Ministry but for the Ministry of Defence. The Ministry of Defence requires male doctors for national service. So if there are less male doctors. there are going to be less doctors for national service. Since the lady doctors have prospects of getting married and bringing up a family, in the end we might not be having the effective number of material whom we can recruit as doctors, particularly when the experience of Britain shows that at least 15% to 20% of female doctors are lost to the profession. This is a point which I ought to bring to the attention of the House because it is food for thought and I am just thinking what I ought to do with regard to future intake of students into the Medical School and how I ought to correspond with the University of Singapore.

To be truthful, I believe there is a trend among the younger generation. This is a new trend which we did not see 20 years' ago. In the 50s I remember some colleagues of mine who retired from the University Service as doctors did not collect enough from their pension or the Provident Fund to buy a house. These days the young doctor who graduates immediately asks for a house. The Member for Kim Seng mentioned in a speech at a Rotary Club which was reported recently -

The Chairman: Dr Toh, may I remind you that we have got another four amendments to go before guillotine time.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I will cover everything as fast as I can, Sir.

The Chairman: Please carry on.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: I would just like to say that there is a trend among the younger generation, and the trend is to achieve the good things in life as early as possible. It is an indictment, of course, that our social values that we wish to impart are not there. All that you have to do is to watch the commercial advertisements over television. They are all directed at urging the consumer instinct in the young. You see the case of a 24-year-old entertaining ambitions of becoming a millionairess at her age, going to work in a chauffer-driven Mercedes Benz. By the time she has that ambition, what about the younger doctors?

Mr Speaker reminds me that there are four more amendments to go; perhaps I will reserve what I have got to say when the other four amendments are moved.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, as the Senior Minister for Health has given a long explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: At this stage, I think we shall have a Suspension.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 5.30 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.58 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head L - (cont.)

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1101.

I have, Sir, two different topics to raise under this amendment. Firstly, I would like to find out the exact position of a Singapore citizen who is married to a non-Singapore citizen but a permanent resident. They were married with the permission of the Labour Office. The wife who was pregnant went to a hospital here to have her baby. Why was the husband asked to pay a deposit of $2,000 if he can afford it? If he cannot, why has he got to pay $60 for a class C ward? That is my first question. I may be wrong but I would like clarification on this point.

Secondly, we have a situation in Singapore where in the last two years there seems to be a little encouragement on breast feeding. The situation is that a nurse will go up to the mother and ask, "Do you want to breast feed or bottle feed your baby?" If the mother says "bottle feed", a bottle is given; and if she says "breast feed", breast is given! But unfortunately the nurses are really not aware of what constitutes breast milk. They actively discourage the mothers from giving the colostrum, the first flow from the breast, to the baby because it is not the colour of milk. They discourage the mothers because they say it is no good. If you read last Sunday's Sunday Nation about X factors and also about what is in the colostrum, it is good for the baby. It helps to give immunity to the baby. Why is the hospital not actively encouraging breast feeding? In the olden days we had no problem. In my younger days mothers used to breast feed their babies in buses. Today, with modern commercialisation of tinned milk, young mothers are now ashamed of feeding the baby the natural way. There are so many good things in breast milk and yet our hospitals discourage it.

I know this from first hand. In the last three months two of my sisters have given birth, and in both cases they were discouraged from giving breast milk. I am surprised at this. We should encourage mothers to give breast milk to their babies because of the very many factors that are helpful to both the mother and the baby. The baby will get immunity from taking the natural mother's milk and the mother, contrary to some myth, will regain her figure faster, So I am quite surprised that breast feeding is not being encouraged.

The other matter, which is again quite surprising to me, is that after both my sisters have given birth, there came a lady dressed as a nurse and unsolicited (we do not know who she is). She said, "I am a mother-care nurse". She came in, weighed the baby, and immediately tried to sell a brand-named milk. I want to know how this milk company got the names and addresses of the mothers. I thought that the names and addresses given to the hospital are confidential and should not be given to anybody who asks for them. So how did their names get to the milk company? These people are dressed as nurses, and a woman who is not fairly well educated may think that they are nurses and are giving good advice about giving tinned milk or formula milk to the baby. She might immediately change from breast feeding to tinned milk which is, I think, rather undesirable.

There is a group willing to teach young mothers how to breast feed before they go to hospital to deliver their babies. It may sound ridiculous that mothers do not know how to breast feed, but it is true that there are certain problems associated with breast feeding. This group is willing to teach breast feeding and yet I understand that it is not getting any encouragement from the hospital. In fact, I understand that one hospital medical superintendent is definitely hostile to the group that he would not allow any of its members into the hospital to teach the young mothers how to breast feed. I am wondering why there is this hostility towards breast feeding which is a natural thing to do. If God meant to give the baby cow's milk, then He would do away with breasts for women! I would be most obliged if the Hon. Minister could answer the questions that I have posed.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Sir, may I just take up the point immediately since you indicated to me that there is a guillotine.

I ought to explain that under the present scheme of medical charges all those who are in possession of a work permit or Employment Pass are considered as residents and are charged residential fees, obstetric cases excepting. Unfortunately, this interpretation has been applied even to those who hold Singapore blue identity cards. It does not make sense indeed that permanent residents who hold Singapore blue identity cards but do not work are charged residential rates whereas those who are willing to work and hold work permits are charged nonresidential rates. I have reviewed the matter and decided that henceforth a permanent resident holding a blue Singapore identity card regardless of whether he holds a work permit or an Employment Pass and who is the wife of a Singapore citizen will be charged the same hospital rates as for residents in all obstetric cases.

To answer the second point on breast feeding, I cannot remember whether all of us were brought up on mother's milk. But at least I assume some of us are well aware of the campaign conducted by the Member for Potong Pasir, He is a great enthusiast for breast feeding, excepting that I have to remind him "that is meant for kids only". I am not aware that any of the obstetric departments in our hospitals are hostile to the practice of breast feeding. In fact, the Member for Potong Pasir is very pleased indeed with the milk bank that we have helped him to establish. But if it is true, as the Member for Telok Blangah has alleged, that there is a campaign at marketing cow's milk in hospitals, I would like to know the full particulars so that action can be taken.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment,

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Goh Chok Tong (Marine Parade): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1101.

Sir, hospitals are not areas which I would normally like to tread nor is it prudent on my part to cock a snook at the guardian of our health. But when the addition of two posts under subhead BAA 1101 increases the appropriation by over $2 million, I am interested to know if million dollar men are being created in the surgery of the Singapore General Hospital. Sir, the physical creation of Singapore's own bionic man may be a mythical project, but let me hasten to draw attention to a more serious and down-to-earth problem in the hospital.

I read with great concern the reported resignation of 100 Government doctors in a New Nation editorial 23rd February, 1977 has called the mass resignation and emigration "mob hysteria" in a recent talk to the Rotary Club. Unlike the Member for Kim Seng, I am a layman in medical affairs but even a layman knows that health service is labour-intensive and its quality hinges on the availability of suitably qualified personnel, particularly doctors. With due respect to the press, laymen also know that press reports based on so-called reliable sources often turn out to be unreliable. Could the Hon. Minister for Health therefore enlighten us as to the true situation regarding the reported mass resignation of doctors from the medical service and whether or not the problem of "mob hysteria" exists. Having asked the question, Sir,I hope I would not end up in a hospital.

Dr Toh Chin Chye: Sir, the Member for Marine Parade has raised a very important question. Firstly, I would like to congratulate him on his sharp eye in detecting the enormous difference in the subhead under Singapore General Hospital for the financial year 1977-78. I must confess it was a ghastly error. An investigation has shown that in reality $0.368 million is intended for annual increments, the balance of $1.797 million was to cover 606 new posts proposed by the Ministry.

The explanation given to me was that most of the new posts proposed were not approved by the Ministry of Finance when the Estimates were submitted under subhead BAA 1101, and because of clerical oversight it was too late to adjust the provision since the Estimates had already been finalised and printed. The error would be rectified administratively by freezing the excess provision.

5.45 p.m.

Now, on the second point with regard to the question of the resignation of doctors - I think it is a continuation of what the Member for Kim Seng, the Member for Anson and the Member for Punggol have said a little while ago, and so may I continue with what I said a little while ago before? While I do not want to appear to be harsh in my judgment of the attitudes of the younger generation, I think it is fair enough that we should try to be as objective as possible in our estimation of trends. I made a speech at a dinner two weeks ago in which I stated that about 60% of doctors had resigned with less than three years of service. I am afraid it was a very conservative estimate. I should have qualified that statement by saying that at least 60% had resigned. I have examined the trend and I would like to inform the House of what I have discovered. The percentage of doctors resigning within three years was: 1972 ... 44% 1973 ... 65% 1974 ... 69% 1975 ... 74% 1976 ... 73%

So there is a clear-cut trend, and not to understand this trend means that we will forever be chasing our tails and listening to complaints made by the doctors' union on inadequate salaries, unsatisfactory conditions of service, and so on. I have indicated earlier that the eagerness to enjoy the good things in life exists among our younger generation.

In the case of private practice, market forces of supply and demand apply. We all like to believe that our doctors are serving only the population of Singapore of 2.3 million permanent inhabitants. This is not really so. There were 1.5 million transient visitors last year, plus another 120,000 estimated floating population of expatriates. In other words, I put it that the doctor-population ratio in Singapore is less than what it is. Therefore, as long as there is a demand and as long as members of the public or even visitors are prepared to pay the prices which the private practitioners call for, the exodus from the Ministry of Health will continue. Hence. I have suggested earlier that there is a clear-cut distinction between migration and leaving the Ministry of Health for private practice.

As far as migration is concerned, it is very difficult to control the doctors, short of withholding their passports. I do not think that can be done. But there is no reason at all, as I have said earlier, why the Ministry of Health or the Medical Council should ever give an applicant a Certificate of Good Standing when there is nothing under the law to say that this should be done. On the other hand, I have appealed for institutional loyalty. I am rather amazed or stunned by the Member for Jalan Kayu when he suggested that it is pointless to appeal to the doctor's loyalty and that he would rather pay them. This is suggesting that all doctors are mercenary and that they have got no other instincts. I do not believe that all doctors are the same and there can be no institutional loyalty. My fear is that the young doctors are leaving too early for their own good.

5.50 p.m.

The Chairman: Dr Toh, it is guillotine time for your Ministry.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir,I am happy with the partial reply given by the Minister for Health. The first reply was satisfactory. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The time allotted for Head L having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with:

Dr Ong Leong Boon:

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAB 1101

Mr P Govindaswamy:

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced $10 in respect of subhead BIA 1101.

The sum of $187,603,620 for Head L ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates

The sum of $62,460,000 for Head L ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates

Head M -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1003* (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Yeo Choo Kok and Dr Ong Leong Boon).

Mr Speaker, Sir, it is a fact that our Prime Minister and our Foreign Minister are doing an excellent job for Singapore in their overseas missions. Every time they visit a foreign country some sort of social, economic and regional agreement with the country seems to result, and in most cases the agreement is more or less in our favour. Their visits have charted our little nation in the world map as an important nation in this region. This is indeed remarkable.

However, I would like to know what are our overseas missions doing besides looking after passports, visas, and encouraging tourism and trade for Singapore? Are they advertising Singapore through our missions?

Sir, the Foreign Ministry has stated that the major powers would treat our region as an "area of contest". Except for Japan and China, the other powers no longer regard Southeast Asia as crucial to their interest, as it once was. But then the major industrial powers are important to us economically. Their investment markets and their technology are necessary for our continued economic progress. In line with this statement. I wonder what the Ministry has done so far or what it intends to do in the near future for the benefit of our Republic.

Sir, the ASEAN Secretariat in which Singapore is involved was formed sometime ago. I gather from reports that the Secretariat is not fully functioning in Jakarta. What is happening to the Secretariat? Is Singapore fulfilling its role in the Secretariat and, if so, to what extent?

Nowadays, we seem to hear numerous news about our connection with the other ASEAN countries. This is indeed important for our progress and survival of our nation and region.

However, what has happened to our relationship with the Commonwealth countries? Sometime ago we had the pleasure of hosting the Commonwealth Conference here in Singapore, but after that we seem to hear less about our connections with the Commonwealth nations. Why is this so? Is there any intensive dialogue with the Commonwealth nations for the economic, social and regional benefit of our country. Or are we neglecting our interest with these countries? Can the Minister comment?

Sir, in the Budget Estimate there is a sum of $82,000 allocated for Foreign Service Training. May I know what is this training all about, and who are involved in the training?

Finally, under the Expenditure on Manpower, I notice that the Ministry is finding it difficult to recruit staff for our various overseas missions. Why is this so? Is there a barrier in the selection of the staff or is it because there is a lack of response to this Ministry? As far as I understand, there are many people in the civil service who would not mind offering their services in the Foreign Ministry. Could the Minister explain?

Mr Yeo Choo Kok (Delta): Mr Speaker, Sir, according to the Memorandum on the Main Estimates there are two decreases in the Ministry. Under EOM, there is a decrease of $1.02 million and under OOE, a decrease of $1.00 million. The reason given is that:

`no financial provision has been entered for the new posts and vacancies .., in view of the difficulties in recruiting staff for the various Missions.'

Sir, it seems to me that the Ministry has made up its mind not to recruit any new staff for the vacancies in the various missions by not making any financial provision for the new financial year. Sir, the reduced budget only serves to give those who would like to make foreign service their career the wrong impression that there is no future in joining the foreign service. I wonder whether our foreign services will be weakened by this reduced budget.

Sir, the Finance Minister has said in his 1977 Budget Statement that "to safeguard our economic interests, our trade, investment and diplomatic offices will be strengthened in key centres." Sir, how could our diplomatic offices be strengthened by unfilled vacancies and a total decrease of about $2.00 million for the staff and expenses for overseas missions?

The Ministry has encountered difficulties in recruiting staff, as the Member for Anson has pointed out, over the years. I want to know whether the Ministry has up till now come up with any plan to solve the recruiting problems and whether our diplomatic offices in the various key centres have been affected by the weakened foreign service and shortage of diplomatic personnel.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: I am not speaking, Sir.

The Senior Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr Lee Khoon Choy): Mr Speaker, Sir, as usual, the Member for Anson tries to kill many birds with one stone. This time he tries to kill six birds with one small stone.

Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, in regard to what our overseas missions are doing, I can assure the Member for Anson that our overseas missions are not idling. In fact, they are rather hard pressed with work. Members of our foreign service are actively working at all times to encourage tourism and trade for Singapore. The Foreign Service officer is expected to perform a varied task when serving in one of our overseas missions. Because of Singapore's limited manpower resources, each officer is expected to pull his weight and pay equal attention to the political and economic functions. In fact, in some of our smaller missions one officer is expected to look after many jobs in connection with Singapore's interests in the postings overseas.

I would just like to mention in passing that this reminds me of my assignment when I was in Cairo. I had only three staff, one Third Secretary and one First Secretary, and we had to cover three continents. Egypt, Yugoslavia, Ethiopia, Beirut and Pakistan. So Members can be sure that we have not been idling. So are the overseas diplomats.

A Commercial Secretariat service was established in 1976 under the charge of the Department of Trade. The officers under this service are expected to do hard-selling of Singapore products. This means that Foreign Service officers have now to concentrate on intensive economic monitoring of the countries where they are posted to. They are expected to be on the alert for protectionistic tendencies as well as report on any economic opportunities available for Singapore.

6.00 p.m.

On the second question about some big powers no more interested in this region and so what do we do, the presence of major powers in Southeast Asia is a permanent feature of the political scene in this region. However, some powers no longer regard Southeast Asia as crucial to their interests as it was once. These are facts we have to live with and to tailor our foreign policy objectives accordingly.

Although these powers no longer regard Southeast Asia as crucial, they nevertheless continue to pay much interest in the region, particularly when the ASEAN countries have demonstrated the benefits of foreign investment in the region. Our task is to ensure that such interest is maintained and increased. To this end, the Government has embarked on a range of activities which include the despatch of Singapore trade missions and the reception of foreign business delegations. For instance, our Minister for Foreign Affairs will personally be heading an economic delegation of 20 persons early next month to Brussels where a high level conference will be held. This conference is organised by the European Economic Commission and the European International Bank and will be attended by leading business magnates of Western Europe and ASEAN countries.

At the same time, we have publicised Singapore's attractions by such means as inviting foreign journalists to our country. For instance, a group of Swiss journalists were invited to Singapore in conjunction with the recent flotation of a loan in the Swiss money market.

At another level, my Ministry is posting high calibre officers to key overseas missions. Commercial secretaries are sent out to tap new markets. A mission will soon be sent to Jeddah. The EDB overseas representatives work hand in glove with diplomatic officers, as they are doing in the case of our mission in Tokyo and Osaka.

On the ASEAN front, dialogue which started with the EEC. Australia. New Zealand and Canada will soon be embracing Japan and the USA. There is potentially great benefits to be gained from these dialogues in terms of greater investment, transfer of skills and technology and access to new markets.

Mr Speaker, Sir, on the third question of ASEAN Secretariat, we have only recently made two important decisions by the ASEAN Standing Committee which set up the ASEAN Secretariat in motion. These are the approval of the budget for the Secretariat and the appointment of senior staff to the Secretariat on a rotational basis in alphabetical order. Singapore will continue to actively support the efforts of the ASEAN Secretary-General. General Dharsono of Indonesia, to develop the Secretariat into an effective organisation.

The fourth question deals with the Commonwealth. I can assure the Member for Anson that we have not neglected the Commonwealth. In fact, our ties with member-countries are increasing both on a bilateral and multi-lateral basis. Let me give some instances of the importance we continue to place on our Commonwealth links. Since the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting was hosted by us here in Singapore in 1971, the Prime Minister and the Minister for Foreign Affairs have attended biennial gatherings in Ottawa and Jamaica. This year they will again go to London where the meeting will coincide with the Silver Jubilee of the Queen's accession.

Singapore provides financial support to the Commonwealth Secretariat, particularly to the Commonwealth Fund for Technical Co-operation. The CFTC has helped Singaporeans to acquire new skills through Commonwealth fellowships in national development. Our cash contributions and fellowship awards also go to the Commonwealth Institute and Commonwealth Foundation. As part of the Commonwealth Technical Assistance and Cooperation. Singapore has over the years received and trained many nationals from Africa, Papua New Guinea. Fiji and Sri Lanka among others.

At the Kingston meeting in 1975, the Commonwealth Heads of Government set up a body of economic experts to examine ways in which the association can help in bridging the gap between the rich and poor countries. A separate group of industrial specialists was formed with 10 members. Singapore was represented in this select group. The findings of these specialists will be considered by the Commonwealth Heads of Government in June this year.

On another level, Commonwealth Ministers meet regularly on a variety of issues; monetary, economic development, trade, law and so forth. At various international forums, Commonwealth delegations exchange views, try to coordinate positions and minimise contentions. Yesterday, the 14th March, was the first time Commonwealth Day was simultaneously observed by all the 36 member-states. In Singapore. all schools observed the occasion on the 11th as school vacation started on 12th March. Competitions and exhibitions were organised. My colleague, the Minister for Education., issued a special Commonwealth Day Message. Tonight after this session. I have been invited by the Commonwealth Society to a reception. So Members can see that we have not neglected the Commonwealth.

An hon. Member: Over-worked!

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: Mr Speaker, Sir, on the question of recruitment and training of diplomats, this is quite a difficult problem for us because recruiting a diplomat is not an easy matter. There are so many stringent requirements. First of all, personality. A diplomat's success wherever he may be depends to a large extent upon the way he cultivates friendship and develops contacts. This in turn is related directly to the personality characteristics of the diplomat and his spouse. He should possess both social graces as well as a friendly, pleasant and outgoing personality. Secondly, integrity and loyalty. A diplomat is entrusted with the nation's plans and secrets. This great confidence which is entrusted in him must never be violated. Therefore, he must be a person whose integrity and loyalty is beyond question. Then, we need someone with knowledge of sensitivity. He must be able to understand strange customs, traditions, ideology which are fundamental to each overseas assignment. The officer must be alert to the psychological sensitivity of foreigners and must avoid unwittingly insulting or offending them. This calls for tact and discretion of the highest level. Then he must have good judgment because in terms of crises, when he is under pressure, he must be counted on to think clearly and to make correct decisions. Faulty judgments can jeopardise the interest of a nation. Therefore, there can be no substitution for clarity of thought and judgment.

The qualities enumerated above are universally considered to be professionally necessary. They are exacting qualities and, therefore, the standard of selection has to be high. For these reasons, we have not been able to select sufficient suitable persons for appointment to the Foreign Service. Among the steps we have taken in our recruitment exercise are talent scouting within the civil service and in the universities and perhaps maybe amongst some of our colleagues and we hope when their services are called upon they will not shrink.

Some hon. Members: Joe!

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: Apart from this, a diplomat also has to make certain sacrifices, such as the disruption of his children's education by reason of his being transferred from one posting to another; and then the adequate job opportunities and good living in Singapore, in contrast with the inconvenient and unsettled life associated with the job in the Foreign Service. Such reservations against joining the Foreign Service are expected to be diminished with time as the Foreign Service develops and the challenges and honour of representing Singapore overseas are fully realised.

On the $82,000-question put forward by the Member for Anson, I have just mentioned the difficulty of recruiting diplomats and we have been taking some steps to train diplomats. We have organised basic administration courses for Attaches conducted by the Civil Service Staff Development Institute which take about 10 full days. Then we have basic courses for Foreign Service officers giving them the craft of diplomacy, political, economic, consular, protocol functions for diplomats serving abroad. The course will take eight days and are conducted by lecturers at the University of Singapore. Trainees will attend courses on international law, international relations, economics, contemporary history. This will take three months. And then they need to undergo language training. In 1976, a total of 43 officers were reimbursed with tuition fees under the foreign language scheme. Then trainees are given on-the-job training where they are trained in headquarters or attached to the various Ministries or to statutory boards for briefings. And also overseas attachments. This is a full-time two-month course where an officer is attached to an overseas mission. Or alternatively he is sent to attend conferences to gather experience. Apart from that, we also have taken advantage of the following overseas courses extended by various governments to the Public Service Commission, The Australian Foreign Service training course duration is five months; the New Zealand Foreign Service course duration is six months; and the French Government scholarship is a two-year course comprising a French language course and the diplomacy course at the International Institute of Public Administration in Paris.

6.15 p.m.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Delta asked why we did not fill the provision, giving the impression that there is no future for diplomats. One of the main reasons for the reduction of the EOM provision for the Financial Year 1977 is the inability to fill the large number of vacancies in the Foreign Service. I have explained why we found it difficult to fill the vacancies. The prospects of filling all of them in 1977 are not very bright. The provision for the 1977 EOM is based on the salaries of the actual number of officers, including normal increments and the sum of NWC allowances for 1977. In other words, there is no provision of salaries for the vacant post or the new post which has been created for the Regional and Economic Division. Should the need arise in the course of 1977, to supplement the EOM provisions such amount required can be vired from the OOE provisions to augment the EOM provisions.

I have mentioned about the recruitment of officers. Insofar as the Foreign Service is concerned, the quality of manpower is far more important than quantity. The selection of the right person for posting to the right place at the right time will always be a matter of crucial importance. It will, therefore, fill the existing vacancies when the persons are found. I am not optimistic, however, that all the vacancies will be filled during this period and in order not to unnecessarily inflate the budget, I have decided to reduce the EOM provisions. Until such time when sufficient officers are recruited, our overseas officers will remain not fully staffed. The result is that overseas officers are called upon to work harder and they have responded well.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir,I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Dr Lau Teik Soon -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1101.

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 4001.

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): Sir, in view of the fact that the Senior Minister of State has preempted my comments and answered some of those questions that I would have raised, I do not wish to move my amendments,

The sum of $26,125,650 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

Head N -

Mr Phey Yew Kok (Boon Teck): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1003*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs. Cheong Yuen Chee, P. Govindaswamy, Ivan Baptist and Tan Cheng San).

The law prescribes limits to the payment of annual wage supplement. This is desirable and, indeed, imperative in an economy such as Singapore's where our progress is dominantly dependent on inducements to prospective investors to invest in Singapore, and to ensure that our manufactured goods are competitive in overseas markets. The rationale behind the law is, therefore, perfectly understandable and one with which our trade union movement will go along. A balance, however, will have to be struck between what has been paid before and what is to be paid now so that the workers will not lose out. But it would seem that the law is heavily weighted against bargainable employees in relation to the non-bargainable employees particularly those who, because of their positions, become non-bargainable. These are junior executives and others who are categorised as confidential staff and who, because of the type of work they perform, may be labelled as confidential or managerial, in many instances, at the discretion of the management.

I am not suggesting that such employees should not be paid the annual wage supplement or bonus, but when the disparity between what they are paid and what the workers receive becomes acutely significant, then one wonders why the non-bargainable group should be paid significantly more than the bargainable group of employees. I know of many cases. I would like to quote one instance where, according to my analysis. the non-bargainable category of executives and confidential staff constitutes some 14% of the total workforce and have received almost 44% of the total amount of annual wage supplement or bonus paid. Perhaps the Minister for Labour and this House would like to know that the Chairman of this Company's Board of Directors is a top civil servant. I must say that not all the top civil servants really practise what they preach. In this company there are not less than 888 employees. The company classified 127 employees as "managerial" staff. In other words, the ratio of managerial staff in this company is 1:8. I must compliment this top civil servant who really trains managerial people in this company and who really pays the company's managers well. The total annual wage supplement paid by the company is about $1.4 million and the managers and the confidential staff got more than 44%. This I submit, Sir, is unjust to the bargainable employees who fall within the ambit of the Employment Act, while the non-bargainable employees who are not covered by the Employment Act enjoy enhanced benefits. I suggest, Sir, some acceptable limit should be imposed on the quantum payable to such employees.

One other matter that is a cause for concern is that pertaining to the practice of granting a half-day off on the eve of important festivals. Here again, I must say that the civil servants do not practise what they preach. It is common practice for employers of white-collar workers to grant a half-day off; and no one raises an eye-brow when this is freely granted to them. But I note with some wonderment that when blue-collar workers request for a half-pay off on such occasions they face difficulties. I quite realise that in circumstances where the work is essential to the life of the community or when a disruption of work will have adverse economic or social effects this will not be possible. I must say that the organised workers in Singapore, like the transport workers and the bus workers, are responsible workers. We know that on Chinese New Year Eve we have to have family reunion dinners but we do not go and ask for time-off. We ask only in those areas where their absence does not disrupt production of work. In other words, non-essential areas. But where disruption of any nature will not arise, it is manifestly unfair not to grant this facility to blue-collar workers. This year's Chinese New Year eve was an instance in which where even Government officials seemed to be inclined to the view that requests for a half-day off from blue-collar workers to their employers should be treated differently. Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, such a view becomes incomprehensible and untenable in the light of the present policy to encourage our workers to take to blue-collar work. It is obvious, Sir, that if we continue to adopt different standards for white-collar workers and blue-collar workers, it will be difficult to obtain the desired objective. I would, therefore, like to see the application of, at least, uniform standards.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Sir, in last year's Budget session I raised the question of the possibility of certain companies indulging in unjustifiable and unfair retrenchment exercises. In his reply, the Minister of State for Labour stated, and I quote from Hansard, Vol. 35 col. 404:

`The managements of firms which intend to retrench workers have been advised by the Ministry of Labour, and guidelines have been given by the Ministry for such an exercise ...

The Ministry has been monitoring closely the retrenchment Situation. We are satisfied that generally there have not been abuses by managements.'

Sir, I would like, in this instance, to bring to the attention of the House a blatant abuse of one particular company. I shall be bringing up another case when I have obtained sufficient facts. This company I am now referring to carried out a retrenchment exercise in 1975 and a second one in 1976. A total of 207 workers were retrenched in both cases. In 1975 the company paid out $1.7 million in retrenchment benefits but subsequently made a net profit of $2.9 million in that year. In 1976 the same company paid out $539,000 in retrenchment benefits and made a profit of $10 million, This is net profit. In a statement to shareholders, the chairman of this particular company spoke in glowing terms, which I would like to quote:

`With the momentum generated by management and the improvement in trading conditions, the company looks forward to the new year with some confidence.

I would not like to mention the particular model of the car. This particular model which was introduced in October 1976 was well received. The demand outpaces the supply. Then another make of car continues to achieve higher market penetration in both Singapore and Malaysia. Sales of commercial vehicles are improving and the Company has been successful in penetrating the bus business in volume.'

6.30 p.m.

Sir, it is understandable for companies to resort to a retrenchment exercise to avoid successive trading losses or adverse trading conditions. But for companies to resort to retrenchment exercise at the expense of workers, I must say, is highly immoral. This brings up the question of whether the Ministry of Labour's monitoring system is effective enough to counter such abuses and also whether employers are paying heed to the Ministry's guidelines. I would therefore, urge the Ministry of Labour to look into such abuses more seriously.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I wish to point out an anomaly that exists in the office which issues licences to foreigners intending to marry Singaporeans. When a Singaporean wants to marry a foreigner he has to get a permit for his better-half from the Labour Ministry. In these cases some applications have been turned down. Appeals were made by MPs and they were also turned down, the office quoting rules and regulations for rejecting the applications. But miracles seem to happen. These permits were granted through some other means. How is this possible? Is there some double regulation for the granting of these permits? Can the Minister explain this anomaly?

Sir, turning to employment, it is observed that ex-convicts find difficulty in getting jobs. Why is this so? If they cannot get a job, what do we expect them to do? Most probably, they will continue to commit crime. We must not look down on ex-convicts because there is such a thing as turning over a new leaf.

It is also observed that too many employers complain about job-hopping. Have we analysed the root problem of this? Do the workers job-hop merely for the fun of it? Because of a few isolated cases of job-hopping without good reason, we should not condemn workers for job-hopping. Financial incentives, family problems, distance from home, poor working conditions, and unreasonable employers could be the cause for job-hopping. In contract work. particularly, some contractors cheat the workers wherever possible. Yet these people go unpunished. Some employers in the various industrial establishments treat workers badly. Yet they also go unpunished. Blaming workers for job-hopping is not the answer. Penalising workers through NWC restrictions may not be the answer to solve this problem.

I quote an example of a contractor who has been awarded the contract for cleaning services in the Airport. This contractor has riot paid some of his workers for some months. However, the workers still carried on with their work in the Airport. Then to their surprise, they found that workers from another contractor have come to take over the job. It appears that the first contractor has lost his contract. He has still not paid his workers and he did not even have the courtesy to inform his workers that he has lost his contract. Some contractors never pay the salaries in full to their workers. What they do is to pay 75% of their salary and withhold the rest. Is this permissible? What is being done about these unreliable contractors and also contractors who exploit foreign labour by not contributing CPF or paying the right amount of contributions? Many workers do not report these matters to the Ministry of Labour, simply because some of the contractors have secret society connections, and they are therefore afraid of repercussion.

Sir, we emphasise so much on productivity that we have forgotten where productivity lies. Sometimes, the wages paid are such that they do not encourage productivity. I quote an example. The Airport junior staff and the daily rated workers have to work in the rain and sun under very difficult conditions. Yet their wages are far below that of workers in factories who work in air-conditioned comfort. What incentive is there for the productivity of these workers? I think most probably the Member for Changi understands this matter and he will know what is happening in the Airport.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I crave your indulgence. May I bring up matters under a different subhead AHA 1101 of which I have given notice, as they are related?

The Chairman: You may speak on it in passing, but if you wish to go into specific details, I suggest you wait until that subhead comes up for discussion.

Mr Ivan Baptist: In that case I will not be speaking.

The Chairman: As you please. Mr Tan Cheng San.

Mr Tan Cheng San (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Sir, young people of Singapore do not want to engage themselves in laborious and heavy work, particularly in building construction work. There are reasons for this. Generally, such work is contracted out to contractors. There are chief contractors, contractors and sub-contractors. The workers do not have any safeguards over their employment. They do not enjoy paid holidays or double pay for working on rest days. They do not enjoy paid sick leave, annual leave, or maternity leave under the Employment Act. All these unreasonable and unjust working conditions are found among workers on building sites and also in places where the contract system is done. These workers do not enjoy all these benefits. The only way to do away with this anomaly is to organise the workers under contract labour and unionise them.

But as soon as the contractor comes to know that the workers have joined the union, he will immediately dissolve his company and sack all of them. This means that as soon as the workers under contract labour unionise so as to protect their interests, they will lose their jobs. Some private companies also resort to the same tactics as the contractors by sacking their workers and hand over the job to the contractor. This happens very often in the recent past.

Let the Labour Ministry find out from the Registry of Companies how many HDB worksites and buildings have been used by contractors to put up their offices. So I hope the Minister realizes the plight of these workers and take necessary action to amend or enact the relevant Act so that workers of contractor can enjoy all those benefits provided by the law. The principal company should be responsible in awarding such benefits similar to what is provided in the Workmen's Compensation Act. The principal company should also be responsible for the workers to join a trade union for their interest.

Sir, on the question of medical facilities provided for the workers, according to the present Act, any sick leave could only be allowed on the production of a medical certificate issued by the company doctor or in the absence of such doctor, by a Government doctor. When the Singapore Industrial Labour Organisation complained about its members not receiving good medical care because of restriction under the terms of their contracts, the company doctors immediately protested. According to recent newspaper reports, some doctors have confirmed such restrictive regulations in respect of medical charges. In view of the restriction on medical charges, nobody believes that company doctors would be so generous as to give expensive medicine to employees of a company because they know that the employer will refuse to pay such expensive medical costs. Therefore, we can come to only one conclusion, i.e, under these circumstances, employees will not be able to enjoy adequate and fair medical care. Worse still, if an employee is not satisfied with the diagnosis by the company doctor, he is not allowed to see a Government doctor.

Employers also understand that Government doctors are neutral. From the point of professional ethics, when there is a difference of opinion between two doctors, one should not challenge the other. There are a few local organisations who neglected these medical ethics. Instead, they instigated certain companies not to recognise the diagnosis by Government doctors. Because of these differences of opinion, the life of the patient is at stake. A widow once told me that if her husband had not paid heed to his employer's threat to sack him if he were to visit the Government doctor during working hours, he might still be alive today.

Because of the seriousness of this matter, I hope the Minister for Labour will pay attention to it and properly amend the Employment Act so that the workers will be entitled to sick leave on certification by the company doctor or a Government doctor. Alternatively, if there is a difference in the diagnosis of these two doctors, then the diagnosis of the Government doctor should be upheld because he is more neutral and there is no conflict of personal interest involved.

According to the existing law, it is an offence for a trade union to claim for anything in excess of frozen quantum but the law does not make it an offence for an employer to pay less than the frozen quantum.

6.45 p.m.

Employees are accustomed to expect a certain quantum of Annual Wage Supplement on a fixed date, under the terms of Collective Agreement. At the 11th hour, many companies do not pay the frozen quantum on the pretext that they have no capacity to pay. Would it not be fair for such companies to apply to the Arbitration Court for variation of Collective Agreement or apply to the Minister for Labour to reduce the quantum well in advance so that the employees will not be taken by surprise if they do not receive the quantum of Annual Wage Supplement that they are entitled? This will also not give the workers cause to suspect any foul play, otherwise it will appear unfair to them. If a company wants to continue to pay the annual wage supplement more than the frozen quantum, it would have to get the approval of the Minister for Finance. It is now up to the company to decide whether to apply or not. It is an offence for the union to even enquire whether the company wishes to make the application. Similarly, when approvals are given, the unions are not informed. Consequently, several companies make their own announcements when they make the application and when approvals are received. This definitely is unfair to the unions because they have to hear about the additional payments from the employers and in many instances after the payment is made, Such practice makes the union members feel that the company is the benefactor and more generous and that the union is in a helpless position and useless to them. When a company which has paid more than the frozen quantum refuses to apply for approval for the continuation of the payment of additional quantum, the Minister should direct the company to apply for approval and let the Ministry of Finance to decide whether the company has the capacity to pay or not.

The Ministry of Labour is very keen in according equal treatment to all the employees. When the trade union has got better conditions of service or remunerations for its members, the Ministry will see to it that the non-unionised workers will also be accorded equal treatment. Once the unionised workers get certain benefits from the employer, the Ministry of Labour would quickly see the employer and urge the employer to accord to the non-unionised workers equal benefit. On the contrary, when a trade union has concrete evidence to show that a certain employer has been giving non-unionised workers higher annual wage supplement, the Ministry of Labour officials would say that they could not help the unionised workers to get equal treatment because they were not given the power to deal with such an employer to give such equal benefits to them. If this is so, why should the Ministry of Labour intervene when the union negotiates and comes to an agreement for better terms to its members?

The Minister for Labour (Mr Ong Pang Boon): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the term "non bargainable employees" used by the Member for Boon Teck normally refers to managerial executives and confidential staff. The Employment Act does not cover persons employed in a managerial, executive or confidential position. The provisions in the Act governing the payment of annual bonus and annual wage supplement are, therefore, not applicable to them. Besides the National Wages Council has decided, as a matter of principle, that its wage increase guidelines are not intended to cover these categories of employees except those who are subject to collective agreement. They are excluded because their salary structure and promotion prospects and system of rewards are worked out competitively and applied individually according to performance.

It is true that in certain small establishments due to the nature of the business or profession, the majority of the staff are in the managerial, executive or confidential categories. The common ones are the consultancy firms where the engineers or professional executives outnumber the clerical employees. But this situation is not present in the industrial sector.

I do not think that the exclusion of the managerial and executive staff from the ambit of the Employment Act and the NWC wage increase guidelines would encourage employers to upgrade certain subordinate employees to the non bargainable categories with the aim of discriminating against the bargainable employees. Economic reasons would be a deterrent against exploitation of the situation, Besides, there are provisions in the Industrial Relations Act for trade unions to challenge the unilateral classification of non bargainable employees by the employers and for the Industrial Arbitration Court to rule on such dispute.

It has long been an established practice for Government where the exigencies of the service permit to allow the employees to take a half-day off on the eve of festivals, such as the New Year, This arrangement is subject to the condition that departments having business with members of the public have to keep their normal working hours and no additional expenditure should be incurred on overtime,

Pre-festival time-off with pay is quite prevalent in the trade and services sectors. It could be regarded as an existing fringe benefit in establishments where such an arrangement has been in practice for some years. The Member for Boon Teck is well aware of Government's policy that there should be a freeze on the range and quantum of existing fringe benefits and that the bizarre ones or those which are not conducive to our economic growth should be discontinued. Therefore, there is nothing to prevent firms from continuing to observe pre-festival time-off with pay if such an arrangement is an accustomed benefit.

The Member for Toa Payoh has referred to a case of retrenchment by a certain company in 1975 and in 1976 while at the same time showing profits. Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know the particular company concerned nor do I know the reasons for the two retrenchments carried out by this company. But it is possible that the retrenchment could be the result of over-staffing or better management and the introduction of labour-saving techniques, hence resulting in redundancy. If this is the case, then it makes economic sense to retrench the redundant staff so as to make its products more competitive.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Singapore has to face intense competition for markets abroad. To do so, it means that a company has to constantly raise its productivity and this may involve either improved techniques of production, the introduction of new machinery, and sometimes reduction of the labour forces as a result. This is probably the only way for the company, or in the wider context the country, to survive and prosper in this intensely competitive world. The workers so retrenched can be redeployed in other productive activities and in the tight labour market like Singapore they will soon find alternative employment.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Paya Lebar has called for an amendment to the Employment Act on the provisions covering sick leave. He has urged that in the event the medical report of a company's appointed medical practitioner differs from the Government medical officer's report, the latter should be accepted. The Employment Act at present provides for an employee to consult first the company's medical practitioner. If no such medical practitioner has been appointed, the employee can consult the Government medical officer. When a company has appointed a duly registered medical practitioner or has set up a medical clinic within the factory premises, it is only right that any employee falling sick should first consult the company's doctor. There are many reasons why this should be so. Firstly, the company's doctor can attend to the employee immediately should there be an urgent need for medical attention. Besides, the company's doctor would have the medical history of the employee and can make proper and correct diagnosis. Secondly, by providing immediate medical services productivity is maintained by curtailing unforeseen disruption of work due to illness of employees.

I would like to assure the Member for Paya Lebar that the Ministry of Labour adopts a flexible stand and has advised companies to accept medical certificates issued by Government medical officers even when companies have their own appointed medical practitioner. Furthermore, hon. Members would like to know that it is the prevailing practice in collective agreements to recognise medical certificates issued by the company or Government medical officers or in the case of a bona fide emergency by any registered medical practitioner. In the circumstances, it is unnecessary to amend the Employment Act relating to sick leave.

7.00 p.m.

The Member for Anson has raised the issue of job-hopping and cautioned against condemning workers who change jobs for valid reasons, like adverse working conditions, distance from work, etc. The latter point is well taken. However, of equal consideration is the need for our workers to imbibe higher skills and competence and thus increase productivity. It is only through increased productivity that Singapore can compete effectively in the international market. If job-hopping especially among the younger generation affects overall productivity, then this habit has to be stopped. Most cases of frivolous job-hopping are due to lack of dedication and personal pride in job accomplished. This is compounded by the impatience for higher monetary rewards and rapid promotion.

I have already informed the House earlier during the debate on the President's Address that to discourage job-hopping for frivolous reasons, the NWC will be asked to consider whether such employees should be deprived of the full NWC wage increase. Notwithstanding this, all employers should exercise greater initiative to inculcate and motivate their work force towards greater harmony and increased output.

The hon. Members for Anson and Paya Lebar have raised the subject of unscrupulous contractors and poor working conditions in the building construction industry. We are all aware of the tight labour market in this sector. That being so, it will not be feasible for a contractor to unduly exploit his workers without risk of losing them to another contractor. It is true that some workers due to the casual nature of their jobs may not be enjoying benefits like annual leave, rest day. CPF, etc. However, this is sometimes done with the mutual consent of both parties. The Central Provident Fund Act, for instance, lays down explicitly the liabilities of the employer and employee. Workers can always lodge a complaint to the CPF Board in cases of non-CPF payments where such payment is due.

On the examples cited of some contractors withholding salaries, the Employment Act provides for the payment of salaries before the expiry of the seventh day after the last day of the salary period. Failure to do so is an offence under this Act. Again. workers can seek redress through the Labour Ministry. Cases of non-adherence to paid holidays, annual leave and paid sick leave can also be referred to the Labour Ministry for appropriate action.

The Member for Anson has referred to job opportunities for ex-convicts. Sir, Government departments and statutory boards have in recent years adopted a more liberal and enlightened policy with regard to the employment of ex-convicts in order to assist them in integrating into society. In order to enhance the employment prospects of prisoners on their release, the Government has set up a statutory board, the Singapore Corporation of Rehabilitation Enterprises, which provides specifically for the industrial and vocational training of prisoners. The objective of such a training programme is to instil work discipline in the prisoners as well as to promote their vocational skill. Prisoners are being trained in a wide variety of trades for their eventual employment in both the public and private sectors.

My Ministry's Employment Service also renders employment assistance to every job seeker who registers with the Service, irrespective of their background. Introduction of registrants to prospective employers for employment is based strictly on their work suitability. In other words, an ex-convict seeking employment assistance from the Service is given the same treatment in job opportunities as the others.

The Member for Anson has also mentioned that there were some marriage applications between citizens and work permit holders which were turned down, and that although appeals made by Members of Parliament on their behalf were not successful, subsequently approvals for their marriage were granted. I wish to assure the hon. Member for Anson that there are no double standards in the consideration of applications for marriage between citizens and work permit holders. The cases of subsequent approvals are those where the applicants later meet with our policy requirements, like the requirement of having to work for at least five years, or being skilled after having been trade tested by the Industrial Training Board.

Sir, I think I have covered most of the points.

Mr Phey Yew Kok: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to have two points clarified by the Minister for Labour. First, the company which I mentioned just now is a manufacturing company. It is not a service company as the Minister has stated. I must say that it is quite prevalent in a number of companies to try to exclude as many employees as possible from the Employment Act and pay higher annual wage supplements. In the case of the company which I mentioned, how can we convince the workers that we cannot go beyond the annual wage supplement limit? For every eight workers in this company, one worker gets four months, whereas those workers who come within the ambit of the Employment Act get two months.

What I would like to find out from the Minister is: will he consider amending the Employment Act or other legislation to make sure that the annual wage supplement is applicable to everyone, irrespective of whether they are in the bargainable or non-bargainable category. We are not certainly objecting to a few top managerial personnel who deserve more than what the Employment Act permits.

The second point of clarification is the question of half-day off for the workers, What I am saying is this. If the Government which is the biggest employer sets the example of giving half day off on the eve of the four festivals and also on New Year's Eve, how can we encourage more and more workers to go to the manufacturing sector? I do not think that this is an area where it can be considered bizarre. In the past, the employer has been giving these benefits but because of the NWC we trade unionists are prepared to accept the freezing of all fringe benefits and the employer conveniently also tries to take away the half-day off benefit from the workers.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I have said just now, it does not make economic sense for the company to upgrade bargainable employees to the category of non-bargainable employees and pay them higher annual wage supplement unless there are good reasons for doing so. In any case, there are these provisions in the Industrial Relations Act for the unions to challenge the company's action in unilaterally reclassifying its employees from the category of bargainable to the non-bargainable.

On the question of the half-day off for New Year festivals, I have said that where it is an accustomed fringe benefit then the workers should continue to enjoy the benefit. I think there are a good number of manufacturing companies offering their employees more than just half a day off. In any case, I shall refer the point raised by the Member for Boon Teck to the Minister for Finance for his consideration as to whether the half-day off for civil servants should be abolished completely.

Mr Phey Yew Kok: Sir, I would definitely take up the case with the Ministry of Labour regarding this company and, if possible, with the NWC to make sure that there is no abuse. I thank the Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.15 p.m.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Tan Cheng San.

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1010.

Mr Tan Cheng San: (In Mandarin): Sir, as I have already touched upon this item earlier, I do not wish to speak on this amendment now.

The Chairman: Mr Ho See Beng, amendment (3)*.

Mr Ho See Beng (Khe Bong): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead ACA 1101. ( The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs. Teong Eng Siong, P. Govindaswamy, Ho Kah Leong and Ch'ng Jit Koon).

Sir, the matter I would like to raise before this House, which comes under the portfolio of the Ministry of Labour, concerns the case of a marriage between a Singaporean and a Malaysian. This couple applies to the Commissioner for Employment for approval to marry in 1 973. The application was approved on the condition that they should sign an undertaking to undergo sterilisation after having two children. This couple signed the undertaking to obtain the Commissioner's approval, and they were married.

Trouble begins after the arrival of their second child, as they are now required to undergo sterilisation. The woman was willing but the man was not. He argued that it would suffice if his wife alone was sterilised. He said that even if they continued to cohabit as man and wife, they cannot produce any more children. But the Commissioner insisted that both the husband and the wife must undergo sterilisation, and warned the husband that his wife would be expelled from Singapore if he failed to comply. The man did not go despite the warning. This resulted in the wife being sent back to Malaysia. The woman now lives in Malaysia while the two children live with their father in Singapore. Thus this once happy family is now broken up virtually by the injustice of a man-made decision. Why must the Commissioner insist on both the husband and wife to undergo sterilisation? So long as the wife is sterilised and medically proved incapable of giving birth to any more children, is this not enough? What is the necessity to sterilise the husband also? To add insult to injury. I was told that this woman concerned was sent back to Malaysia by the Immigration Department on the instruction of the Commissioner for Employment. Since then she has been prohibited from entering Singapore to visit her two children and her husband because the Immigration Department refused to endorse her passport when she applied for the usual two-week temporary stay in Singapore. I think this is wrong and unjust.

I seriously urge the Labour Minister to put a stop to this kind of restriction, like requiring people to undergo sterilisation before approving their marriage. The Commissioner's duty is to accept or reject according to the merits of the case. If the application merits consideration, then he approves it, otherwise he rejects it. Trading a marriage approval for sterilisation should not be allowed to be practised in future. If we believe in achieving a more just and equal society, moral duty requires the Labour Minister to act and restore the happiness of this family concerned.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, under this amendment, I want to raise two matters, Firstly, according to complaints, it takes a very long time to get work permits, sometimes stretching to more than one month, This is very inconvenient to those factories which are in urgent need for workers. Some garment factories which have large orders have to recruit many female workers, but it is very difficult to recruit them locally. Therefore, they have to recruit from abroad. They approached the Ministry of Labour for work permits, but it takes a very long time. This is very inconvenient for these factories as it retards production. Therefore, I suggest that the Minister concerned should ease the restriction on issue of work permits to facilitate manufacturers to fulfil their orders.

The second matter is a request to ease the restriction or to liberalise the issue of work permits to drivers, barbers and general shop assistants, I have often received complaints from the public concerning the difficulty in getting work permits for these people. The majority of their applications have been rejected, causing much inconvenience to many people. For example, the Secretary of the Citizens Consultative Committee in my constituency is the owner of a bookshop. He wanted to employ a driver from West Malaysia at a monthly salary of $280. He applied to the authority in charge for a work permit, but it was rejected. I also appealed to the authority on his behalf, giving my reason that it was very difficult, in fact impossible, to get drivers locally. But it was also rejected. There are many other similar cases. Therefore, I hope the Minister concerned will liberalise the conditions for the issue of work permits. This problem has existed for many years. In the past, restriction on work permits for foreign workers was meant to reserve jobs for our local people. At present, our employment situation has improved, and also there is a shortage of local drivers, barbers, grocers and coffee shop assistants. Since this is the case it is time that the Minister concerned reappraised the situation and review the policy of work permits. If these over-stringent measures were continued, it would greatly inconvenience the small businessmen adversely affecting their business. Therefore. I hope the Minister concerned will take immediate steps to ease the restrictions on work permits to solve the difficulties of the people.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, work permits are no doubt supposed to be issued only to legitimate cases. But I feel that common sense should prevail in some deserving cases. We have a bad labour shortage in certain occupations, construction workers being one of them. We have no alternative whatsoever but to employ foreigners. Therefore, I suggest that the Work Permits Office should be more liberal in granting work permits for these workers.

Similarly, there is a shortage of workers in domestic labour such as cooks, servants, etc. Let me deal with the question of servants. Quite often work permits are not issued to those who want to work as domestic servants. But let me put the problem this way. If we do not get domestic servants, then our own women who are highly educated and employed have no choice but to resign and stay at home to look after their children. Servants in Singapore are in great demand. They have become a very expensive and precious category of labour. A number of highly educated women are unable to work in the civil service, because they are unable to employ domestic servants. Their resignation is a great loss to the country.

I hope the Minister will use his good offices to rectify the problem and deal with it in an amicable way. Work permits should be granted liberally and fairly to all races.

The Chairman: Mr Ho Kah Leong and Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon are not here.

The Minister of State for Labour (Mr Sia Kah Hui): Sir, the Member for Khe Bong is of the view that it is inhuman for the Government to allow marriages between Singaporeans and work permit holders unless both parties undergo sterilisation. The Member also added that the wife's agreement to go for sterilisation should suffice.

The Member will recall that with effect from July, 1973, prior approval is necessary if the work permit holder wants to marry a Singapore citizen. Such prior approval is given if the work permit holder is a skilled worker. If the work permit holder is an unskilled worker, approval is given if he has worked for at least five years on work permit. In both cases no sterilisation bond is required. A work permit holder who contravenes the marriage policy will have his work permit cancelled. The citizen party will also be subjected to disincentives. He or she will not be eligible to apply for HDB flats nor will their children enjoy free education or their family subsidised medical treatment.

The offer of the sterilisation bond is made in certain circumstances, like where the couple does not qualify for marriage approval but the female party is in the family way. It is a humane way out for couples in such a situation. The concept of a sterilisation bond is in keeping with the family planning ideal of a two-child family. The acceptance of the sterilisation bond is strictly voluntary. The couple is given medical counselling on sterilisation after which it is up to the couple to accept or reject the bond. On signing the bond the couple will undergo sexual sterilisation only after the birth of the second child. It is only fair that both parties be requested to undergo sterilisation. This is in line with our objective of a two-child family. If only one party is required to be sterilised. I would have thought that the husband rather than the wife should be the one. I must stress the point that the sterilisation bond is undertaken voluntarily.

7.30 p.m.

It is not unreasonable in such circumstances where couples have been granted early marriage approval for the couple concerned to honour their undertaking. The undertaking can, of course, be withdrawn by the couples but then they must be prepared to face the consequence of disincentives being applied on them.

The hon. Member suggested the abolition of this humane way out. He wants this sterilisation bond to be abolished. I think he has forgotten the feelings of young people who are bent on getting married. If he were to look back on his young courting days not so many years ago. I am sure he was no different from other young couples in love at that time. I am sure he would not suggest rejection of their application to get married immediately. Personally. though I may be old in age but I can assure -

Mr Conceicao: Young at heart!

Mr Sia Kah Hui: I am still young at heart, that is right. The Member for Katong is very quick. He knows exactly.

Mr Conceicao: Same feeling.

The Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour (Mr Fong Sip Chee): In all respects!

Mr Sia Kah Hui: We would like to find ways and means whereby the wish of young couples to get married is fulfilled and that they live happily ever after.

The Member for Sembawang has stated that he has received complaints that the Work Permits Office took a month or more for a work permit application to be processed and he considers this to be a delay. Let me assure him that the Work Permits Office does not take a month or more to process and decide on an individual work permit application. The time taken is usually about a week or so from the date of receipt of a work permit application.

In the case of an approved application, he must remember that the non-resident applicant will be asked by letter to undergo a medical examination, including X-ray and blood test at the medical centre in the Work Permits Office, and at the same time the applicant is informed that temporary permission for one month is granted to him to start work. So the Member for Sembawang will appreciate that given the thorough nature of the medical examination, it will take about two weeks for the result of the medical examination to be conveyed to the Work Permits Office by the medical authority. On the date of the expiry of the one month temporary permission, he will be issued a work permit if he has been certified medically fit.

However, there are some cases which require verification or clarification of certain information which either has not been given or has not been clearly stated by applicants in the work permit application form. Because of this they are required to appear for an interview. From experience, more often than not, they do not turn up punctually or sometimes they do not respond at all. For this type of cases it would therefore take a much longer time to process. The present system of processing work permit applications is satisfactory. Nevertheless, we are constantly on the look-out to cut out any red tape found unnecessary.

As to his second point, I can see the hon. Member for Sembawang is very persistent indeed. This is the third consecutive year that he has brought up the subject of giving work permits to certain types of applicants. I do not think I can give a better reply than that given by my Minister on the last two occasions and I would invite him to read the reply given as recorded in the Hansard of the last two Budget sittings.

With Singapore's continued policy of rapid industrialisation it is of vital importance that the manpower requirements of the industries should first be met. In line with this policy we have to continue to accord priority in applications for work permits from non-citizens seeking employment in factories and other industrial undertakings. So long as our economic objectives and manpower strategies remain unchanged, non-citizens wishing to pursue soft jobs and relatively unproductive jobs like shop assistants could not be given priority at all.

I note that this year he has chosen to add drivers to the list of such occupations as barbers and shop assistants which have been brought up in the past. With regard to the post of drivers they can be filled by Singaporeans. So the employers will probably have to pay a bit more. Last month alone. 47 applications were approved. In fact, there are about 3,500 drivers on work permits at this moment. So each application is considered on its own merits.

In the case of barbers, we have not been unduly restrictive in granting work permits to non-citizens engaged in this particular occupation. This is because the Ministry is aware that few Singaporeans are interested in taking up such employment. For the past year, 45 out of 85 male applicants to be barbers as against 133 out of 282 female applicants to be barbers were approved. The majority of those rejected were found to be job-hopping, while a minority failed to pass the skill evaluation test as barbers conducted by the Adult Education Board. So in the circumstances, the Ministry will not relax the policy pertaining to barbers.

The hon. Member for Anson brought up the question of certain types of jobs which are very difficult to fill by citizens because they are not available, We are aware that some professionally qualified women have been unable to take up employment or gainful employment and had to give up jobs because of the difficulty in obtaining domestic servants. The Ministry has, in fact, been quite liberal in the issue of work permits to domestic servants. As at the end of February 1977, there were 3,732 non-citizens on work permits working as domestic servants and last year. 1,702 work permits were issued to non-citizens to work in such employment. Householders who intend to employ non-citizens as domestic servants have little difficulty in obtaining work permits if both the husband and wife are in gainful employment or if the husband can satisfy the Commissioner for Employment that his wife would take up employment within a reasonable period of time upon being granted approval to employ non-citizen domestic servant.

As for the employment of cooks who are non-citizens, their applications are favourably considered if they possess relevant experience, while applications for work permits from young and inexperienced workers are rejected. As at the end of last month, there were 867 non-citizens on work permits working as cooks, and last year, there were 371 work permits issued to non-citizens to work in such employment.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not believe the Minister of State is talking from his heart because I know he is a very religious man. I think it is not difficult for me to refute his argument. In the first place, he said that sterilisation is required of this couple not by pressure or force. That I quite understand. But there is a subtle pressure behind that. If a couple just marries without the approval of the Commissioner for Employment the consequence is obvious, the woman will be sent back to Malaysia. I am not quarrelling about the objective which is to reduce our rapid population growth and that is why we have to bring in all kinds of measures to achieve this objective. But what I am quarrelling about is that the Commissioner should not bring in this condition to induce a couple to agree to sterilisation which will later on bring about this tragedy and trauma. Now the family has broken up virtually. I disagree with this exercise. So I say, "OK. Since he wants to get married he signs the bond," All right, he faces the consequences. But in future I say that this exercise should be removed. Otherwise, you will create more cases like what I have referred to.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to supplement what the Minister of State for Labour has said regarding marriages between citizens and non-resident work permit holders and at the same time indirectly answer the point made by the Member for Khe Bong.

Sir, when a citizen marries a non-resident work permit holder without prior approval, the Government's policy is to cancel the work permit of the holder and at the same time ask him or her to leave the State, as is what happened in the case cited by the Member for Khe Bong. Several MPs at that time appealed to me on behalf of those affected on compassionate or humanitarian grounds because, by asking the work permit holder to leave the State, it means the break-up of the family and worse still, if the couple concerned has already had children or are expecting a child on the way. The anxiety and hardship suffered are even greater in the latter case. It was in response to these appeals by some MPs and also numerous appeals from those couples concerned that a decision was made to offer sterilisation as the humane way out. This in a way will meet the national interest of keeping the population increase under control so as not to over-stretch our social, medical and education services while at the same time the marriage can be regularised and the family unit can be kept intact.

I wish to emphasise again that acceptance of sterilisation is strictly voluntary and the operation is only carried out after the birth of the second child. Sterilisation as a way out of the couple involved is only offered after repeated appeals by the parties concerned and with great reluctance. It would have been better if the work permit holder can wait until he or she has worked for five years before entering into matrimony or if he or she can acquire the necessary skills to qualify for permanent residence and thereby approval for early marriages without having to undergo sterilisation.

7.45 p.m.

Furthermore, I fail to see how the offer of sterilisation which will only be carried out after the birth of the second child can be inhumane when our own citizens are being asked to stop at two. It would appear that a kind and humane act to assist couples, who, either through folly or force of circumstances, have to get married early is not being appreciated. If the Member for Khe Bong is reflecting the general feelings of the great majority of the people concerned, the Members of this House included, and not just the selfish interest of the husband he is championing, then I am prepared to reconsider whether the offer of sterilisation should be withdrawn, in which case, I must point out that it will mean loss of job to the work permit holder and the separation of husband and wife and children.

Now, the Member for Khe Bong, on behalf of the couple that he is championing, has asked. "Why not just sterilise the woman instead of requiring both parties to undergo sterilisation operation." The answer, I think, is quite obvious. To be really effective in controlling population increase, especially when both parties are young and in view of the high divorce rate, there is nothing to prevent the divorcee to marry again and raise another family. I am surprised that the Member for Khe Bong should advocate sterilisation for the woman only. I would have imagined that it should be the man for, quite apart from a simpler and easier operation, in our Asian society it is invariably the man who keeps mistresses and maintains more than one family establishment. In the specific case that the Member for Khe Bong has mentioned. I do not see why the man should refuse to go for sterilisation if he genuinely loves his wife and his two children and wants his wife to join him and to look after the two children.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Minister has just said - (In English) Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, -

The Chairman: According to the Standing Orders, if a Member commences to speak in one language, he should continue to speak in that language.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have said just now that the Minister has been "fathoming a gentleman's thought by a petty-man's measure." Why should he suspect that the husband would keep mistresses? In Singapore we have the law of monogamy. Unless a man is divorced by law, he cannot marry another woman. Why should he raise this question in his answer to me? I am rather surprised.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am surprised at the ignorance of the Member for Khe Bong in this respect. Surely he must know that there are hundreds and thousands of cases of men keeping mistresses. They are not registered or legally recognised. Surely the Member knows many prominent people in Singapore who have kept more than one establishment.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is exactly what I have said. The Minister is "measuring other people by his own narrow yardstick." He has got only one wife, but he believes that everybody else would take concubines. I think that is a wrong way of putting things.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, that is precisely my point. If the man is sterilised, then no matter how many establishments he maintains, he cannot produce any more children.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, similarly I have said just now that if the woman is sterilised and medically proved incapable of giving birth to any more children, is that not enough? He has already got his two children. Why should the Minister insist that the man must also go for sterilisation?.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, my point is that that man can go about and maintain another establishment.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, concerning the answer given by the Minister of State, I am quite satisfied with it generally. However, I want to raise a supplementary question. I hope the Minister of State will answer it. He said that we should give priority to industrialisation. I agree. But in addition to being an industrialising country we are also a commercial state. We have other economies and commercial enterprises. Ours is a plural economy. In our commercial enterprises, of course, we need workers. If we do not have enough local citizens to work in the commercial enterprises we need to reassess the situation and allow non-citizens to fill the vacancies. The situation has changed and our employment rate now is high. Therefore, restrictions should be eased in order to allow foreign workers to work here in commercial enterprises. This is my first point. The second point is this. He just said that if we pay a higher salary to our local citizens, then we would be able to recruit them to fill those vacancies. But Government's labour policy is to restrain from paying higher wages in order to keep this State so as to be in a competitive position to attract more investments from abroad. So a higher salary is incompatible to our policy. Could the Minister of State explain?

Mr Sia Kah Hui: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think he has missed my point about priority. If we have steel factories and productive establishments requiring manpower, and we have to go outside the country to get the workers, we must have these places filled first, But we cannot allow people from other countries to come in and take up unproductive jobs, when there are so many vacancies in factories requiring to be filled. Therefore, soft jobs and unproductive types of jobs cannot get priority. We do not issue work permits for such kind of employment.

When I said that we had to pay higher wages to local people, I am just stating a fact that if we pay foreign workers less, and we just get hold of foreign workers to come into Singapore, then what is going to happen to our workers? We still need to have jobs for our people. Therefore, they must be paid. And as long as there are workers available, it is just a question of having to pay a bit more. There is no particular reason why we should bring in foreign workers just for that particular reason.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I seek clarification on a point? The Minister of State has mentioned that work permit holders who have worked for five years need not undertake the bond of sterilisation, Now, at the moment, as I understand it, there is rigidity in the calculation of the five-year period, i.e, the work permit holder must have served five years in one work-place. Would the Minister of State consider approving a work permit holder who has worked for five years, irrespective of whether or not he or she has worked in more than one work-place? I am not encouraging job-hopping, but merely to refer him to the plight of such work permit holders.

Mr Sia Kah Hui: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Serangoon Gardens did not have his premise right. When we say "five years", we do not say that a work permit holder must work for five years in one establishment. In other words, he can have more than one employer. But when this job-hopping question arose, there is a minimum period of two years - at the beginning it was three years - during which a work permit holder must work for one employer before he can leave. Therefore, logically one person cannot be working for more than two employers, or at the most three employers, within a period of five years. As long as he can work within this period for two or three employers, well, he has done his five years. We do not say that he must work for five years with one employer. That is not the way the period is calculated.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, just on a point of clarification. Does the Minister of State not realise that even with an increased quantum of wages for certain jobs, Singaporeans still shun away from these jobs? The work establishments cannot carry on without these personnel who are necessary.

Mr Sia Kah Hui: Sir, the Member for Potong Pasir will notice that in my reply I have quoted the number of work permits issued to exactly the kind of persons that the Member for Sembawang was talking about, that is, drivers, and the Member for Anson was talking about, that is, cooks. We do not say that we do not issue work permits at all. We do give work permits, but then each case would have to be considered on its own merits. We do not give a blanket approval; if somebody wants to employ a driver, we give him a work permit. No. We have to consider whether he really needs a driver and that it is absolutely necessary. We do give work permits. It is not that we do not give them.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, is it the policy not to give work permits for shop assistants? Singaporeans normally do not like to be shop assistants.

Mr Sia Kah Hui: Sir, in the majority of cases I would say that we do not give work permits for shop assistants because we consider such a job as extremely unproductive. Such manpower is required elsewhere. If we were to issue a work permit to a shop assistant so that he could bring a katty of sugar up the stairs to a buyer in a Housing Board flat, my goodness, we will have to issue thousands of work permits for shop assistants. If all these people come to Singapore to become shop assistants, what will happen to our factories? Nobody will go to the factories if they can get a soft job.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, although the answer is unsatisfactory, I still beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the 1st March, 1978, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.