MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1978 TO 31ST MARCH, 1979

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [6th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.33 p.m.

Head T (cont) -

Resumption of Debate on Question (20th March, 1978),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1100 of Subhead Code TA-01 of the Main Estimates." - (Mr Tan Cheng San).

Question again proposed.

The Senior Minister of State for Education (Mr Chai Chong Yii): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I continue with my reply by first giving a summary of what we have done or what is being planned, to enlighten Members.

(1) Review of Primary and Secondary Education

In the last two years, the following adjustments to our education system have been made: abolition of automatic promotion in primary and secondary schools, introduction of the Basic Course at the primary level, establishment of the Junior Trainee Scheme to place Basic Course leavers in jobs in industries, and expansion of vocationally-biased courses at the Adult Education Board and the Industrial Training Board for less academically-inclined pupils at secondary levels. The aim of all these adjustments is to minimise wastage of our human resources through better co-ordination of our education programmes with our manpower needs.

(2) Pre-U Education for Chinese Stream Students

The recent adjustment to Pre-University education for Chinese stream students was necessitated by the changeover to English medium of instruction for new intakes at Nanyang University. The options offered are to help Chinese stream Pre-University students upgrade their proficiency in English language, thereby enhancing their prospects of University education or employment.

(3) Bilingualism

The adjustments are in line with our policy of bilingualism. At present a pupil has to pass the Primary School Leaving Examination (PSLE) before he is allowed to proceed to Secondary 1. In order to pass PSLE a pupil must be quite good in the first and second languages because of the following weightage given to the four required subjects: First language ... 200 Second language ... 200 Mathematics ... 100 Science ... 100 Although under the above system a pupil very good in one language and very poor in the other can still pass his PSLE if his Mathematics and Science are both far above average, it is unlikely for many pupils to get through it this way. Besides, my Ministry is now placing greater emphasis on the study of the first and second languages in primary schools as younger pupils can learn them easier. This is being implemented stage by stage even at the expense of learning less of other subjects which they can catch up when they are in the secondary schools. Minimum language qualifications for admission to Pre-U courses have also been raised such that by 1980, P6 for First Language and P7 for Second Language will be required. For Members' information, this year, only a P8 is required. This, together with the special concessions given to pupils who score Distinctions in first and second languages, will actively promote effective bilingualism amongst our more able pupils who will be our future leaders. Where feedback has shown that children are unable to cope successfully with the learning of two languages, the approach has been modified as in the Basic Course which stressed the learning of one language and the acquisition of only basic oral skills in the Second Language. Our policy of bilingualism will eventually lead to the ultimate emergence of a national type Singaporean school which uses two languages, English and Mandarin, Malay or Tamil as media of instruction.

(4) Implementation of Adjustments

These adjustments were implemented after planning by the Ministry of Education. In the preparations prior to implementation, all available resources were marshalled to ensure that the needs of pupils were not overlooked and that teachers implementing the adjustments are given the necessary support in terms of orientation and retraining. Guidelines to implement the policy of promotion and retention at the primary level were issued and discussed with principals, followed by syllabuses and specifications on assessment of attainment at each level. Basic Course syllabuses were issued together with teaching materials and textbooks. For the secondary level, guidelines on implementation of promotion and retention have been issued and discussed with principals, and detailed recommendations on formulation of schemes of work and assessment are being completed for issue to schools soon. (5) Monitoring for Improvements

Implementation of all adjustments are monitored. The content of the first orientation course for teachers assigned to the Basic Course had been revised. Feedback on Basic Course syllabuses and materials have been obtained and will be taken into account in revisions of syllabuses. A total of 2,342 or 91% of Basic Course pupils available for placement have been emplaced in jobs. A survey of pupils who did not enrol in the Basic Course in 1978 has shown that about half of those who did not enrol have found their own employment while a quarter, mainly girls, preferred to stay at home.

(6) Implementation of Options for Chinese Pre-U Students

The Scheme of Options for Pre-U students in the Chinese stream is being implemented in the Junior Colleges where facilities and the environment for English language learning are better than at Pre-U centres. Students are also given options to select the one most appropriate to their needs. Special tutorials will be conducted for students and every effort will be made to help them adjust. There is also the choice of reverting to the Chinese medium after six months for those really unable to cope. To implement the Scheme,

30 Arts and Science English medium graduate teachers have been selected.

(7) Foreign Language Teaching

Attention has also been given to other areas of the education system. The teaching of Japanese, French and later German is being promoted in secondary schools. This will develop a core of persons with the requisite foreign language skills to meet the nation's needs in future.

(8) Moral-Social Education

The need for more systematic moral-social education in schools is being emphasised. A project has been initiated to obtain feedback on such activities currently conducted in schools and to encourage schools to share their experience and pool resources. Work ethics is also emphasised in the Basic Course curriculum and the AEB Extension Education Programme for junior trainees, while correct attitudes towards manual work are inculcated through more "Use Your Hands" programmes in schools.

(9) Education for the Handicapped

Assistance is being given by the Ministry of Education to voluntary associations catering to the educational needs of handicapped children in addition to financial grants from the Ministry of Social Affairs and the Ministry of Health. Assistance from the Ministry of Education by way of secondment of teaching personnel and provision of suitable physical facilities will be increased. The resources that can be channelled to the education of the handicapped is limited at present as educational provision for normal children must be accorded priority.

(10) Teacher Recruitment

Steps are being taken to attract more high-calibre graduates into the Education Service. There are generous awards of scholarships and bursaries for teaching by the Public Service Commission. To make it more attractive to prospective teachers, the Ministry is revising the scheme of service for Education Officers. We expect to finalise the scheme within a few months.

(11) In-Service Education

Many of our serving teachers were recruited in the crash training programmes of the 1950s and 1960s. Present in-service courses as well as those to be mounted under the 1978-81 5-year Rolling Plan of In-Service Education will upgrade their professional competence and extend their expertise. In-service courses at the Language Project Centre at Portsdown Road as well as workshops on political, economic and social awareness conducted at the National Youth Leadership Training Institute will give new insights and strengthen the general capability of teachers and enhance their job performance. 2.45 p.m.

(12) Promotion Exercise

Any promotion exercise because it is competitive leaves those who are unsuccessful disappointed. The system in the last promotion exercise was adopted after thorough examination of all other possible alternatives and, as far as is possible within a sector of 18,000 employees, assessed by over 500 supervisors, has been a fair system. More teachers were promoted in this exercise than at previous exercises.

The general complaint of Members is that criteria for promotion are not made known. It is not possible for the Ministry to set out in detail all the requirements officers should meet to merit promotion. The broad outlines were published in the Teachers' Rostrum, a Ministry publication given free to all staff in the Education Service. Briefly, the entire record of an officer, his ECA duties, community service, his self-development and national awards are all taken into consideration. An officer has to be assessed against the role he functions in and in relation to others functioning in the same role. The Ministry is attempting to improve the evaluative criteria so that the reporting can be more objective. A revised staff confidential report form has been drafted and has been commented on by a number of principals at the principals' residential seminar held in February. Their reaction has been quite favourable so far.

(13) Morale of Teachers

The view that morale in the teaching profession is low is not substantiated. The findings of a recent Survey on Teachers showed that 75% of teachers found satisfaction in teaching and were satisfied with their current postings. The survey also established that the majority of teachers had no complaints about their ECA load which is an integral part of the educative process.

(14) Consultation with School Principals

Closer rapport between Headquarters and schools has been established through the regular visits of senior HQ officers to schools. A continuous dialogue has been established through residential seminars for principals. Principals have been delegated with greater authority. Financial procedures have also been simplified. Consequential desirable effects are the solutions found to the more pressing problems such as in the maintenance of school plants and the improvement of the physical facilities of schools. Such improvements are in addition to the current School Building Programme under which it is planned that by 1980/81, a total of 66 schools will be built.

(15) School Administration

To strengthen administration in schools, courses in educational administration are being conducted for newly appointed principals and senior assistants to equip them with the necessary management skills.

(16) Systematic Feedback and Monitoring

To obtain regular feedback on all activities and aspects of the school programme and monitor all measures introduced in the education system, a Planning and Review Branch was set up in October 1976. The monitoring mechanism set up by the Branch has to date obtained feedback on the teaching of Science and Mathematics in English in non-English medium schools and on nine areas of the school programme including school administration, staff, curriculum, ECA and examinations. Feedback obtained on the school programme will be discussed at a series of Principals' Conference scheduled over the next four months. The Branch also co-ordinated the monitoring of the implementation of the Basic Course, the Junior Trainee Scheme and the planning for the implementation of the revisions to secondary education. New measures to be monitored include the teaching of foreign languages, the Assistance Plan for Chinese Schools and the optional third year Pre-U Course for Chinese stream students.

(17) Conclusion

The developments in education over the last two years have firstly, made adjustments to the structure of our education system for better co-ordination with national manpower needs and individual educational needs and capacities; secondly, directed all efforts at improving the quality of teachers and meeting teacher shortages; and finally, strengthened organisation and administration of the whole system by careful planning.

Sir, having replied generally on what we have done in the Education Ministry, I would like to go back to a few points raised by hon. Members yesterday.

The Member for Anson asked how successful was the recruitment exercise, and he would also like to know how many resigned from the Education Service. I have only figures for last year. Our recruitment for the Institute of Education in July 1977 was 150 graduates and 95 non-graduates. In the 1978 recruitment, there were 86 graduates and 114 non-graduates. Besides the Institute of Education recruitment, there were direct recruitment of 24 trained graduate teachers. The resignation for 1977 was 62 graduates and 191 non-graduates.

The Member for Jurong would like to know whether the teacher quota and the capitation grant would be revised. I agree with him that the teacher quota has been in use for a number of years. Although there were revisions done previously, they were done quite sometime back. We are at the moment having a re-examination in the teaching load of the teachers. While this may result in the change of the quota or it may not, I cannot promise him. As for the capitation grant, we are looking into the matter. It is true that the capitation grant at the moment is not enough to meet the expenses it was intended. We are still looking into this matter and we are having a lot of discussions with the Ministry of Finance. I hope it may result in some upward revision but the matter is still not decided.

As for principal's allowance also mentioned by the Member for Jurong, it has already been agreed to in principle by the PSC and the Ministry of Finance. As I mentioned earlier, the scheme of service is being revised. The principal's allowance will be implemented only after the scheme of service has been finalised.

Sir, in view of the change in the medium of instruction for pre-university students, the Member for Jurong was worried and he wanted to know how the excess Chinese teachers would be deployed. I can assure him that they will not be retrenched because I agree with him that it is not their fault. Those who can be retrained will be retrained. For those who cannot be retrained because they are old or otherwise, we will find suitable employment for them within the Education Service. Of course, some sort of adjustments will have to be made.

The Member suggested allowing teachers to go on educational tours as a means of reward for their service. This can be looked into. In principle, we do encourage our teachers to tour ASEAN countries to see for themselves. But the details will have to be worked out later.

As for the raising of the standard of English in Chinese schools, I agree with the Member that the most important factor is to have more English Language teachers. Every assistance will be given by my Ministry to the Chinese schools in respect of the required number of English Language teachers. However, there are many other things which a school can do. For example, it could set up a language laboratory; it could have remedial classes; it could fix a day or more than one day a week for students to speak only English in order to break the psychological barrier towards more unfamiliar language. There are various methods that Chinese schools can adopt to improve the standard of English.

My Ministry is prepared to give whatever assistance, including financial assistance, to help Chinese schools to raise the standard of English in the shortest possible time.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens drew the attention of the House to the remarks made by the Director of Education who said that students are not asking questions. What I would like to say is that question-asking is an important educative process and should be encouraged. Teachers in general welcome questions from the pupils.

3.00 p.m.

He complained that the attitudes of the Ministry's officials were wrong or that the officials were rude to the school teachers. I would like to say that all the officials of the Ministry have been specifically told of the importance of establishing a cordial working relationship with schools. If there is any evidence of harassment by them, appropriate action will be taken. If there is any specific instance of complaint that can be substantiated, I will look into it.

The Member for Moulmein complained that the setting up of the Language Project Centre gives the wrong impression that those who attended the courses were unqualified or underqualified. I would like to clarify that it is not true that those who attended the course are unqualified or underqualified. They are all professionally trained teachers. No one can deny that we always have something more to learn. The teachers who attended the courses are not known as students. They attend as course participants. They can learn from the lecturers as well as from among the teachers.

Transfer of teachers is unavoidable. It is not really possible to accede to every request for transfer. Personally, I do not believe that the transfers made recently, though large in number, were due to poor planning. There may be room for improvement, but sometimes time is a factor. If there is any case of genuine personal difficulties, where I can be of any help, I would appreciate it if he could let me know.

The Member for Changi would like to know whether those who attend overseas training would get some sort of incentive when they return. My answer is yes. There is the incentive bonus payment as well as the incentive increments, depending on the type of training.

I think I have replied to all the major queries. If I have left out any, please let me know.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Sir, listening to the Senior Minister of State's reply, enumerating a long list of education programmes that his Ministry is presently carrying out, one cannot help but feel that the Education Ministry is taking on more than what it can chew. Let us hope that there will be no further announcements of any new educational innovations in the immediate future until the Ministry has finished sorting out its various problems in connection with the recent educational policy changes.

The Senior Minister of State also mentioned that the survey which his Ministry conducted among teachers sometime ago showed that there was no evidence of low morale in the teaching profession. In fact, that point was brought up by the Member for Serangoon Gardens. I think he seemed to forget that this survey was conducted before the results of the promotion exercise were known and before the English Language Course was organised. So if his Ministry conducts a survey now, his Ministry will be surprised to find that the results will vary considerably from the results of the last survey.

An hon. Member: How do you know?

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Sir, when the Senior Minister of State spoke on the question of raising the standard of English in Chinese schools, he stated that the Ministry would give every assistance, including financial assistance. He also suggested that schools themselves might set up language laboratories and take all such other steps, such as encouraging a greater use of English. But I notice that he very carefully steered away from committing himself to the question of sending more English Language teachers to Chinese schools. Recently, 28 Chinese primary schools were selected. I think we all know that these are presumably guinea pigs, and some English Language teachers were sent to these schools. I would just like to know whether the same treatment will be extended to the other Chinese primary schools.

Only yesterday, in the Straits Times, we were reminded of the shocking standard of English in English schools. This seems to imply that the standard of teaching of English in English. schools is perhaps far from satisfactory. That would also seem to imply that there is a shortage of good English Language teachers. That being the case, how is he going to get sufficient teachers to be sent to Chinese schools, and how is he going to raise the standard of English in the Chinese schools?

An hon. Member: 10 years more.

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): Sir, I would like to thank the Senior Minister of State for his satisfactory answer to some of the points I have raised. However, I cannot agree with him with regard to his assertion that it is incorrect to say that the morale of the teachers is low.

Sir, 9,696 teachers were invited for the promotion exercise, 473 teachers were promoted. This means that there were 9,223 failures in the promotion exercise, including those who did not turn up for the interview. This constitutes more than 50% of members in the teaching profession, one in every two teachers failed to be promoted or were disappointed with the promotion exercise. I am sure that having failed in a particular exercise, there must be very widespread frustration and disappointment among the teachers concerned. In fact, some of these teachers expressed the view that it would have been better if they had not been called up at all.

An hon. Member: Quite true.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, I was astonished to hear from the Senior Minister of State saying that apart from the exercise being one to promote teachers, it was also one to establish direct contact with teachers. Surely there are other avenues which the Senior Minister of State can think of by which teachers can express their views with regard to the education service. It may be useful for example, to consider establishing at the Ministry of Education a "Meet-the-Teachers" session, very similar to the session that Members of Parliament have.

Turning to a more serious point of contention, a point which the Senior Minister of State did not answer, and that is, what are the criteria for promotion? I think here there needs to be a re-evaluation of the procedures for providing incentives to both young and senior teachers. If I may suggest, the Senior Minister of State should consider the following procedures for future exercises. In the first place, if it is made known to teachers that all of them will be considered for either merit increment or promotion, then there would be no discrimination. But the award of either merit increment or promotion should be based on the following criteria: Teaching capabilities: the way they present their lessons in class; the way they correct the exercise books, their punctuality, and so on. Secondly, their participation in extracurricular activities. Thirdly, their involvement in community service. Fourthly, their seniority. If these four criteria are made known, then every teacher will know clearly that it is desirable to be efficient in his teaching methods. It is desirable that he pays attention to the work of the pupils. It is desirable to participate in extracurricular activities. It is desirable to be involved in community service. If any one of them opts out of these, then he will be aware that he has a less likely chance of being considered. I mentioned "seniority" because in the last promotion exercise, many young teachers were given more than 16 increments or more than double their original pay. This can be resolved if merit increments are awarded to the younger teachers. This too will give them the incentive. They know that they will be considered for one or two merit increments if they fulfil these criteria. For the more senior teachers, promotion should be considered where the difference between their present pay and the promotion pay is in the region of just $100 or $200; this would be a fair and more just exercise in my view.

Finally, the Senior Minister of State mentioned that the Ministry would be considering giving allowances to the Principals. I hope he would extend this system of allowance to the Senior Assistants in the schools as well. The Senior Assistants, as we all know, fulfil the responsibilities of the Principals in their absence. They have to draw up the time-tables and this often occurs during the vacation when the Principal is away. The Senior Assistant is responsible for the overall supervision of school activities and so on. I think it is also opportune at this stage if the Ministry is considering giving the allowances to the Principals to do the same thing for the Senior Assistants. 3.15 pm.

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan (Whampoa): Sir, the Senior Minister of State made the point that school teachers are giving every encouragement to pupils to ask questions so that they would have a discerning mind and do not receive ideas very passively and indiscriminately. Sir, I am also a teacher at the tertiary level. I teach in the University of Singapore and the students that I get are the end-products of our school system. I am very disappointed to report to this House that after nearly 10 years of teaching I find that there has been very little improvement in this regard. The students who attend lectures, tutorials and seminars are very passive and they have to be prodded to ask questions. This is something of fundamental importance to Singapore's survival because we face external circumstances and challenges that have to be met not by Singaporeans who are easily indoctrinated and very passive-minded but Singaporeans who have a discerning and inquiring mind and are able to choose and discriminate between the good and the bad. So I hope that instead of dismissing the point with a one-statement sentence, the Senior Minister of State would give very serious and long thought to this problem and devise ways and means of getting the right message across to our teachers. Perhaps the teachers have become too docile, being recipients of umpteen regulations. I think many Backbenchers have continually impressed upon this House on the number of regulations that teachers have to face. Maybe there is something there that the teachers themselves are somehow brow-beaten into a submissive frame of mind that they are no longer capable of thinking for themselves, let alone stimulate the thinking in their pupils.

Mr Tan Cheng San (Paya Lebar): ( In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to ask the Senior Minister of State whether the Government has the intention to strengthen the knowledge of the students on tripartism, that is, the fostering of relations and cooperation between management, labour and Government, in other words, to include the subject of trade unionism and tripartism as part and parcel of the curriculum in the Secondary school or Pre-university level.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Sir, I will answer the Member for Paya Lebar first. I have already replied to that question last evening but unfortunately the Member for Paya Lebar owing to some commitment, was not present at that time. Sir, I would like to repeat again. At the moment, this topic is included in Civics and General Affairs in the secondary school and, at the Pre-university level, it is included in the General Paper. Even Economics touch on this topic. But at the moment the curriculum is really quite heavily loaded. We cannot have a separate subject on that basis.

Being a lecturer, the Member for Whampoa knows the problem. It is not a matter of giving sufficient thought. As we all know, there are a thousand and one things we would like to do in our schools. We would like our students to do this, to do that and to be the best in the world. The point is how. We do give a lot of thought to that. But how to do it? That is exactly the question. To be very honest, perhaps he knows more about the students' reaction than I do. I have to concede this point because he comes into contact with students more than I do. If he has any suggestions that are of practical value, I am always willing to listen to him and put them into practice.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens said that I did not give the criteria. I did give them but only the general criteria. I cannot give the very minute details. It is more or less as what he has said - ECA, community service, etc. It is very general, a broad outline. I do agree that these are the main criteria. Sometimes it is very difficult to say whether one person's teaching is better than another because it can be quite subjective. That is why we are now revising,the staff confidential report and hopefully we can have a more objective reporting system. Then maybe we can improve upon the promotion exercise. I would like to make all our teachers happy if I could, but this is something which is impossible.

As to the comment that if we carry out a survey after the promotion exercise we will find that the result would be different, this is a matter of opinion. There is no point to go into an argument over this. It may be true immediately, but after some time it will come back again. This is human reaction.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Sir, I made that comment just as a point for argument. I am not suggesting that -

The Chairman: Why do you not let the Senior Minister of State finish his speech before you interrupt?

Mr Chai Chong Yii: The Member for Serangoon Gardens would like the Principal's allowance to be extended to Senior Assistants if possible. For his information, there would be a post known as vice-Principal. I am afraid I have to disappoint him because the allowance will not be extended to the Senior Assistants. We have to draw a line or else there may be requests to extend it to Sports Secretaries and somebody else.

The Member also suggested introducing meet-the-teacher sessions. For his information, the Permanent Secretary of my Ministry does conduct meet-the-principal and teacher sessions in the school itself and not in the Ministry. He has already visited more than half the total number of schools. This process is continuing.

The Member for Jalan Kayu would like to find out whether we are sending more English teachers to Chinese schools. I am not avoiding the issue but we are really trying our best to send more English teachers to the Chinese schools. English teachers will be sent not only to the 28 Chinese schools but if there is a request from the other Chinese schools we will do our best to help them too. I suppose I have answered all the points.

Mr Tan Cheng San: ( In Mandarin): Sir, the Senior Minister of State did not hear me correctly. In reply to my question yesterday I was present. Yesterday I asked for the inclusion of the subject but now I am asking whether the teaching of this subject could be strengthened.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: ( In Mandarin): Sir, maybe for that moment I did not differentiate between "addition" and "strengthening". I could not really remember the exact words he used. But we are already teaching this subject at the present moment. As to what extent we can strengthen the teaching of the subject, that depends on the teachers.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Sir, just now when I said that if the Ministry were to conduct a survey now the results would be different, I was merely trying to drive home the point that circumstances have changed since the last survey was conducted. But I am not at all suggesting that the Ministry should conduct another survey because I think the teachers are quite fed up of having more surveys and more circulars from the Ministry of Education. That is the point that I wanted to make.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Sir, I would like to assure the hon. Member that we are not conducting another survey.

Mr Tan Cheng San: ( In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the explanation given by the Senior Minister of State, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: (2) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by the whole sum in respect of item 1100 of Subhead Code TA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code TA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: (4) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by the whole sum in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code TA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Teo Chong Tee:

Mr Ivan Baptist: (5) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code TA-02 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Lee Yiok Seng:

Mr Ng Kah Ting: (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code TA-02 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment (2), Mr Sia Khoon Seong.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Sir, I am not moving amendments (2) and (4).

The Chairman: Amendment (3), Mr Ho Kah Leong is not here. Amendment (5), Mr Teo Chong Tee and Mr Ivan Baptist are not here. Amendment (6), Mr Lee Yiok Seng is also not here. Mr Ng Kah Ting.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Sir, I beg to move,

'That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code TA-02 of the Main Estimates.'

Sir, I listened with a great deal of interest on the points raised by several hon. Members yesterday as well as the long reply just now by the Hon, Senior Minister of State for Education. This clearly shows the deep concern Members have on the implementation of our education policy.

May I first refer to the speech of our first President, the late Encik Yusof bin Ishak, delivered in this Chamber on 29th November 1963 on that aspect which concerns education: [Hansard Vol. 22, col. 121].

'No single factor is more likely to bring about a more fair and just society than equal opportunities for education for all. The ideal to which all nations in the world aspire is the utilisation of all its human resources to its maximum.'

That is why our Government places a very high premium on the education of our children. I notice that the expenditure on education has always been high but this is the best investment Singapore can have. However, Sir, I have taken the trouble to read the important pronouncements on the education policy contained in the Official Reports from 1963 to 1977. They are to be found in Volumes 22, 24, 27, 32, 34 and 36 in the years 1963, 1965, 1968, 1972, 1975 and 1977 respectively.

Sir, because of the importance of second language in the schools, I feel strongly that I have to make reference to it again this afternoon by quoting from Hansards of past years. In Vol. 22, col. 122, apart from the Government's declared policy to give equal treatment for the four language streams, I quote:

'it is the intention of the Government to improve the standard of teaching of a second and even third language in all schools.' Again in Vol. 24, col. 22 - there was the declaration of equal treatment but a clear emphasis was laid down on "the study of a second language, other than the medium of instruction, will be made compulsory in all secondary schools. Instruction will begin with Secondary I in 1966. After 1969, ... every candidate will be required to pass a second language in the School Certificate Examination."

Just now the Senior Minister of State mentioned that to pass the PSLE the second language is also necessary.

Also on 6th May, 1968, in the Addendum to the President's Speech relating to the Ministry of Education [Hansard Vol 27, col. 17], it states:

'A concerted effort to produce effectively bilingual school leavers to ensure wider opportunities for higher education and employment in our multi-racial society.'

On 12th October 1972, it was stated under the heading "Bilingual Education" that:

'The second language will be better taught through improved methods, by teachers specially trained to teach the mother tongue as a second language in English schools, and English as a second language in non-English schools. More time is being devoted to this. All teachers will eventually have to be bilingual.' [Hansard, Vol. 32, col. 21]

Then again in 1977, under the heading "Bilingual Education and Technical Education", it states:

'Greater emphasis will be placed on bilingual education in schools, namely, the teaching and the learning of the mother tongue and English.' [Hansard, Vol. 36, col. 41] 3.30 p.m.

Sir, the reason for my quoting these extracts which cover a period of some 14 years from the Official Reports is to ask the Hon. Minister these vital questions:

(a) Have the staff in his Ministry really understood Government's declared policy on bilingualism? If they have, how much overall supervision has been made in the last 15 years, to ensure that the schools in our Republic are adequately staffed to implement this policy?

(b) Has the Education Ministry made "Regular evaluation and monitoring of the success of bilingualism to correct errors and remove anomalies in the implementation of the policy?" Also, how often does the Ministry of Education carry out this so-called regular evaluation and monitoring of the success?

(c) What measure of success has been achieved in this respect? In other words, have the students who have completed secondary education become really bilingual? and

(d) If not, why not? What is the mother tongue anyway? To my mind, apart from Malay and Tamil, Mandarin is not the mother tongue of the Chinese population unless it is spoken at home.

It is my opinion that no serious evaluation has really been made. If there was, then remedial measures would have been taken to correct its shortcomings in this respect and we would not be debating on this issue. Therefore, I would like to believe that the learning of languages should be made "living" all the time - a living language that is, a language that lives and it is being used all the time. In other words, mere teaching and learning them is one thing; but, Sir, making use of the language or languages learnt in everyday life is another. One may well ask: "What is the use of learning a language and not using it at all?" Does the Ministry seriously believe that by compelling students to pass the second language in both the PSLE and the School Certificate Examination, it will mean that the policy of bilingualism is achieved? I do not think so if the languages learnt are not used later on. Does this not defeat the objective of bilingualism?

I would therefore strongly suggest to the Hon. Senior Minister of State that his Ministry take stock of its shortcomings in this respect and quickly take remedial steps to ensure that our students will be effectively bilingual; otherwise this declared policy, I am afraid, will just be mere policy pronouncements for the record. As pointed out by the Member for Tiong Bahru yesterday, only lip service is paid on this matter.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Mr Speaker, Sir, the question of being effectively bilingual is not as simple as the term implies. We must admit the fact that not everyone can be really effectively bilingual. Based on our present population, perhaps about 5% can really be said to be effectively bilingual. By that I mean a person who can switch over to any language; he can use it, speak it and write it. He even thinks in that language. There will be about 20% to 25% at the bottom of the human pyramid who would be lucky if they are effectively monolingual. So I think what we have are those in between who are effective in one language but not so effective in the other, depending on how much he knows of one language or the other.

The Ministry of Education does know the policy. But language is a very sensitive issue. Although we have set the trend, or the direction and set out the policy, timing is a crucial point which we must take into consideration. Members will realise that recently there was a greater effort to implement our bilingual policy. This is because the timing is now-ripe. Evaluation, as the Member has mentioned, is a constant process. Feedbacks from principals and teachers will give some indication as to whether the policy is being implemented as it should be implemented. I am not saying that the Ministry does not make mistakes. After all education is something which nobody really knows until we see the results. A certain degree of trial and error is unavoidable. But, of course, the moment we see that it is not moving in the direction that it should take, then we must make some adjustments.

I agree with the Member that bilingual policy is a major national policy. This is a policy on which our survival will depend. There is no reversal of that policy. The thought has never even occurred to us. This policy will be pursued relentlessly until it is fully successful. I am not saying that it is fully successful right now, although we have achieved a certain measure of success. But there is still room for further improvement. I thank him for his observations and for bringing to my attention some of the information which even I do not know because he has dug it up from the old Hansards. On the whole, of course, I cannot say that I do not know the policy. What I am referring to are the speeches which are quoted from the Hansards. They were not made by me anyway. But I can assure the House that the policy of bilingualism will be implemented in full force until we succeed.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank the Senior Minister of State for his kind assurance. The next aspect, Sir, I wish to touch on concerns the conversion of a %w secondary schools into single-session schools. This is contained in Hansard Vol. 27 cols. 17-8, dated 6th May, 1968, and I quote:

'(c) Increasing emphasis on quality at all levels of education to make up for shortcomings in the past necessitated by the unprecedented rate of expansion in the school system to provide a place for every child. Now that this quantitative target has been achieved, attention will be turned to qualitative improvement in such fields as curriculum reform, textbooks and teaching aids, ..... A few well-established secondary schools will be converted to single-session schools, so that maximum use may be made by students of laboratories. school libraries, playing fields and other amenities."

Sir, this policy announcement was made almost 10 years ago. In this respect, could the Senior Minister of State indicate the number of such secondary schools that have been converted into single-session schools? If not, whether and when would this come about? I would think that this would be the ideal secondary school. Has this escaped the Ministry? If so, why?

Furthermore, I would also like to refer to Hansard Vol. 24, col. 22, dated 8th December 1965, where it states that:

'A number of special secondary schools to be known as "Junior Colleges" will be established for pre-university students so that the staff and facilities can be used to maximum advantage.'

The point I wish to make here has reference to the reports in the press sometime last year about junior college students being unhappy because they were made to remain in the colleges much longer than the students in the secondary schools. I believe officials in the Ministry of Education itself could not distinguish the difference between a junior college and a secondary school. Hence, the explanation given to the students by some high officials concerned were not only flimsy but sounded rather pernicious to the objective of setting up such colleges. Also, as a case in point, a nephew of mine studying in one of the colleges remarked that one high official of the Ministry appeared not only arrogant but dictatorial in reply to questions from the floor. It appears, therefore, that Ministry officials are not conversant with the education policy which is, in fact, a correct and sound one. But there appears to have been a misinterpretation in its implementation by Ministry officials to a certain extent.

That brings me to my third point, which concerns "Moral and Civics Education" which has also been mentioned just now by the Senior Minister of State. This matter has also been referred to in Hansard, Vol. 32, col. 22: I quote:

'Civics will be taught to foster social discipline and national identity, to develop in the students an appreciation of moral and cultural values, rather than learning. sometimes by rote, for scoring marks in examinations'. Then again in Hansard Vol. 36, col. 40, dated 8th February, 1977, it goes on:

'Moral and civics education is mainly taught through the subject Education for Living (which is a combination of Civics, History and Geography) in the pupils' mother tongue. The aim of the subject is to inculcate social discipline and national identity and to imbue in pupils moral and civic values.'

Whilst I am in full agreement that this subject is necessary, I notice that those in charge of implementing it do not seem to understand not only the subject nor do they know how to go about inculcating social values! May I ask what is meant by "tried and tested Asian cultural and moral values"?

The Minister for Home Affairs and Education (Mr Chua Sian Chin): You have asked that before.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Yes, it might have been asked before. But I believe there was no reply and by repeating it some attention can be drawn, and I hope a reply will be forthcoming.

Sir, philosophising is one thing, but putting moral philosophy into reality is another. The question is: to what extent has this objective been achieved?

Sir, my last point is on teacher training which has again been touched upon by the Senior Minister of State. Here again, I have to refer to Hansard Vol. 32, col. 22, dated 12th October, 1972, Teacher Training and Staffing, and Vol. 34, col. 14, dated 21st February, 1975:

'(iv) Teacher training will take into account... the new system' and Vol. 36, col. 41.

'(g) More teachers will be trained to meet areas of shortages ... to the schools.' 3.45 p.m.

May I enquire that in the last five years:

(a) how many teachers have been trained?

(b) what other courses, refresher, post-graduate and the like were conducted to upgrade the teaching skills?

(c) how many teachers have been recruited?

(d) what is the teacher-student ratio in both the primary and secondary schools as well as in the junior colleges?

(e) what is the availability of science and mathematics teachers in the secondary schools and junior colleges?

The Hon. Senior Minister of State may in reply conveniently state that I am merely quoting here and there from Official Reports and that all these are being implemented. May I remind him that education is a life-long process. It may well be that from time to time there must be changes as situations warrant it. But in the final analysis the basic education policy remains the same.

The Minister for Law, the Environment and Science and Technology (Mr E.W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise not to defend the Senior Minister of State for Education. He is capable of defending himself. But if a Member, like the Member for Punggol, quotes profusely from Hansard, this volume and that volume, to be fair to the Senior Minister of State the Member should say who the author was. It takes about nine or 10 years before any policy on education is found to be right or wrong. The person replying is not even the Minister in charge. He is a Senior Minister of State. He is not even Acting Minister. To be fair to him, if the Member quotes a passage he should say who said it.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I was merely quoting from the Addenda to the President's Speeches and these are in the Hansards. With due respect to the Senior Minister of State for Education, I believe he knows the matters that I have raised and I think he has got all the answers with him.

Mr Barker: Sir, the Member did not say that the quotation was from the Addendum to the President's Speech. The Member merely quoted from volumes and columns. Following what the Member said, I thought it was from a speech of a Minister. If it was from the Addendum to the President's Speech, then the Member should say so clearly.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I have clarified myself that the quotations were taken from the Addenda to the President's Speeches as contained in the Hansards of the years I mentioned earlier on.

Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin (Bedok): Sir, my amendment is amendment (8) on Subhead Code TB-03 of the Main Estimates which the Member for Punggol has touched upon, i.e. Junior Colleges. May I be permitted to say something on this?

The Chairman: Please carry on.

Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin: Sir, when the first Junior College was officially opened on 14th May 1970, the intention was to gradually bring pre-university classes in the various secondary schools under the management of a College Principal. This would not only provide the students with better facilities but also the necessary exposure and experience to prepare them for university education. Students would be put in classes according to the subjects they take, attending lectures together, quite unlike the way they are grouped in classes in secondary schools.

Sir, since the National Junior College was opened, many other such colleges have been built both by Government and missionary bodies to cater for the needs of more students. The hours of study in these colleges were recently extended to 4.00 p.m., the stated aim and purpose being to enable them to do their studies in the school library, to attend tutorials and to facilitate their participation in the various extra-curricular activities of the college, as well as to provide better opportunities for greater interaction between staff and student so that closer rapport could be established. In the context of the pursuit of knowledge and human relationships, these are certainly desirable aims.

However, Junior College students are now required to stay in school for long hours and this has become a subject of much comment from the students, parents and the public. There are mixed feelings about the real benefits of such long hours in the school, leaving little time for anything else. These are pertinent questions about the real usefulness of forcing students to remain in school till 4.00 p.m. and beyond, when they have to begin classes in the early hour of around 7.30 a.m. There are serious doubts about the real ultimate value of these long hours in college. There is scepticism about the real purpose that is being achieved. Parents and the public are asking whether any real study and research have been carried out before the scheme was implemented, whether serious thought has been given to it before the Ministry of Education decided to slap it on the students. Or whether it was merely the sudden brainwave of one of the officials in the Ministry.

Sir, we have all read reports in the press about the continuing controversy between "the DD" and the teachers and students. There seems to be a wide, yawning communication gap somewhere. I am neither siding the students nor blaming the Ministry of Education. I do not condone students who complain merely for the sake of complaining. I am merely interested in getting an answer whether or not those in authority in the Republic's educational matters are doing the right thing; when schemes are implemented whether they are done only after careful research and study, and whether the aims are achieved.

Let us look at other areas having similar educational situations. In Britain, Sir, when we talk of a "full day" in school, we are actually talking about school beginning at 9.00 a.m. or thereabouts, where lunch is provided. So is tea. The hours spent in school is thus reasonably pleasant. In Singapore school begins at 7.30 a.m. And after finishing school at 4.00 p.m., many of the Junior College students are required to take part in various ECA activities. By the time they get home, especially those who live some distance away from their college and have to depend on public transport, it would invariably be close to 7.00 p.m. or even 7.30 p.m. which, of course, means they would have spent a good 12 hours of each day's 24, in school and travelling to and from school. How much time and energy would they then have left for other things?

Sir, I stated earlier that I am neither championing the cause of students nor pointing a finger of blame at the Ministry. I reiterate this here and now. But I do question the wisdom of the decision to make Junior College students stay the whole day in school. I do question the necessity for it. I do seek answers to the various questions I have raised and am raising. Parents, teachers, students and the public in general would be interested, deeply interested, in these answers - as much as I do, if not more.

In addition to the various questions I raised earlier, I would like to know whether any follow-up evaluation has been done by the Ministry - an in-depth study and evaluation whether or not the original aims and purpose of the scheme have been achieved; whether there is unhappiness among the teacher and student population affected by the scheme; whether an assurance can be given that it is really found necessary to continue with the scheme; whether the general welfare and make-up of the students have suffered or, conversely; whether performance has really improved as a result of the system; whether it is time to review the case, and call for and implement modifications, whatever these may be. Perhaps adjustments are desirable or even necessary. Perhaps a re-thinking is required at this stage. Perhaps changes are needed. I do not know the answers. The Ministry does. I therefore hope to get straightforward and clear-cut answers to these various questions. What I have in mind is the welfare of the students. I am anxious that they do not regard their schooling days as days of drudgery. Unhappy students do not make good citizens. As a long-standing educationist, I await the answers with great interest. I am, however, but one person. There are countless thousands of parents, teachers and students who, I am sure, await these answers with even greater interest and anxiety.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, students of junior colleges start at 6.30 a.m. They reach the college at about 7.30 a.m. They study from 7.30 a.m. to 1 p.m. followed by lunch. After lunch they have to wait until 3.30 p.m. for the next class. Why is this so? This is very bad because the students do not have any rest. How can they study? They must be given time to study. They are asked to go to the library. What is the use of the students loitering here and there? It should be stipulated that they should study from 7.30 a.m. to 2.00 p.m. and then they should be asked to go home. I am supporting the Member for Punggol and the Member for Bedok. They are right. The parents are having trouble because they have to wait for their sons. Some of them do not get back until 6 o'clock. This is very bad. They should be given the time. Not only the students but also the teachers are fed up. How can the teachers teach? They cannot concentrate. They must have some rest.

Sir, the Minister must consider and readjust the time for the junior colleges. Otherwise it would be bad for the students. If they cannot study, they would fail and would not be able to go to the university. The Hon. Senior Minister should do something about this matter.

The Chairman: Mr Teong, would you like to join in?

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): ( In Mandarin): Thank you, Sir. Yesterday and today, we have been talking about education. Here I would also like to touch upon the development of secondary schools. I would like to raise two requests to the Minister on behalf of my constituents. One, whether he will consider the setting up of a vocational secondary school in Sembawang because there is no such vocational secondary school in Sembawang. This kind of secondary school is very necessary because there are many students who cannot go into pre-university classes. Many of them are staying in Sembawang. At present, they have to go to Punggol, Boon Lay and other far away places to attend any vocational secondary schools which are usually more than 10 kilometres away. Thus they have to waste a lot of time travelling to and fro, also incurring more expenses for transport. So I would like the Minister to consider setting up a vocational school so that students living in Sembawang and Nee Soon and Bukit Panjang vicinities can attend such school.

The second point is whether the Minister will consider setting up a junior college in Sembawang. I heard that ordinary secondary schools will have their names changed to junior colleges. In view of the fact that there is no junior college in my constituency, but there is a need for such a college, one should therefore be set up in Sembawang. Otherwise students wishing to attend -the junior college will have to travel very far. I think it is not difficult to set up a junior college in Sembawang because there is a lot of land available and the environment is also good. The place is near the sea. The scenery is also very nice. The air is fresh, unpolluted. It is an ideal place to set up a junior college. Therefore, if the Minister can ask the Minister for Finance to allot more funds for development, then the setting up of a junior college would be an easy matter. 4.00 p.m.

I have another matter which I would like to raise with the Senior Minister of State. He received a lot of complaints about the promotion exercise for teachers. Sir, our education system or policy has been quite successful because we have raised the quality of education and we have also been emphasising the teaching of science, craft and technology. Of course, the success is partly due to the efforts of the Ministry of Education but mainly due to the efforts of teachers because teachers, so to speak, are the engineers of souls. Therefore, the teachers should be rewarded accordingly.

In this field, the Ministry of Education has done something. For example, the recent promotion exercise. I have exchanged views with certain teachers on the promotion exercise. According to them, the system of promotion needs to be improved. For instance, when interviewing the candidates the language used is not very appropriate. Some of the teachers could only speak Chinese and some of the interviewers could only speak English. So a teacher conversant only with Chinese would not be able to converse with the interviewers, and there could not be proper communication. I hope the Minister will take note of this and improve the arrangement for future interviews.

The second point is what many Members have raised, namely, out of 9,696 teachers interviewed, only 473 were promoted. Many were frustrated. They regret having turned up for the interview and feel that it would be better if they had not been called for interview. I have a suggestion to make to the Minister. I understand that the number of teachers promoted is very small. I think this is related to the shortage of funds allotted to the Ministry of Education. If it is short of funds, it could not meet the need to promote more teachers. There is a remedy that we can turn to. For instance, other than promotion, we can give some kind of awards or rewards, commendation or public recognition. The Ministry of Education can introduce some kind of annual awards such as gold and silver badges or medals, and those teachers who are not promoted can be given such medals for encouragement. This is a kind of spiritual encouragement. These gold or silver badges or medals can be awarded on Teachers' Day to encourage the teachers to give of their best, thereby contributing to better education.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Sir, on the question of junior college, as the name "junior college" implies, it is a college and not just a school. We know that the teaching method of a college follows that of the method used in universities. The students attending junior colleges have the minimum age of 16 years. So they are all young adults. There is nothing wrong in asking them to stay back in school for longer hours. This will provide them with ample opportunities for better rapport, interactions and socialisation between students and teachers and also among the students themselves. I think the teachers themselves do not like to stay back. They would like to go back early too. As it is, they have stayed back, sacrificing their time. So the students should not complain. If the teachers are there, the students must make use of the opportunity to consult the teachers.

The Member for Anson said he supported the view. In fact, the Member for Punggol even went a step further. He asked me: what about secondary schools?

Mr Ng Kah Ting: That is right.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: At the moment, due to inadequate facilities we still cannot make secondary schools into single session schools. But we are considering making some secondary schools, it is not possible to have all secondary schools, into single session schools. There is no urgency in this respect at the moment.

The Member for Punggol asked me, "What are tried and tested Asian values?" It is a very general term. It is very difficult to say what are the tested Asian values. I can say filial piety is one. But to say what exactly is a tested Asian value is very difficult. Some which we consider good are personal discipline and personal righteousness. I am not saying the West do not have good values. They may have them in other ways or else the Western culture will not be there. So I cannot give him an answer which will satisfy him as to what are really the tried and tested Asian values.

He asked for the number of trained teachers recruited. I am afraid I have to disappoint him. I do not have the figures. If he wants the figures, maybe he can put in a Question for oral answer.

The Member for Bedok made some complaints. He quoted an instance where the students stayed for 12 hours. This may be an extreme case. He may not know the functions of a junior college. He said that he was suggesting something in his private capacity as a secondary school principal and that he was not complaining. Of course, we will take note of the various questions which he has put. As I said, the idea of a single session junior college is not new. When the first junior college was started, it was in single session.

The Member for Sembawang said that there were some difficulties in language used in the recent promotion exercise. For his information, in every panel there is one interviewer who speaks Mandarin. It may be that that interviewer did not speak up at that time. I do not know. But it is so arranged that there is always someone on the interview board who speaks the language.

The Member suggested giving medals as a recognition of a teacher's service. This is actually being considered by the Ministry, but the difficulty is in the implementation. We do realise that perhaps monetary.reward is not necessarily the only reward that a teacher expects. Some form of recognition is always desirable. He complained that too few teachers were promoted. In any promotion exercise there cannot be too many promotions. Promotions are meant for those who have performed outstandingly, so the number cannot be many. Many Members complained that interviewing so many teachers but promoting so few might bring down their morale. Perhaps this is a lesson we have learnt. Previously, the complaint was just the reverse. The complaint was, "Why was I not given a chance to be interviewed?" It is really a difficult question.

The Member asked me whether there would be a vocational institute in Sembawang. For his information, vocational institutes are now under the control of the Industrial Training Board, which is actually under the charge of another Minister, Dr Ahmad Mattar. As far as I know, there is no provision to build an institute right now. A vocational institute is a very expensive project. Maybe with a shift in population, the Member may have hopes of a vocational institute in his constituency. As for a junior college, I have to disappoint him because right now there is no immediate plan to build a junior college in that area. But there seems to be a rapid shift of population to that area. We are looking into the possibility of getting land in places like Ang Mo Kio New Town, Woodlands, Tampines New Town, and Nee Soon, for the construction of a school, or maybe a junior college. But I cannot tell him right now. So far we have not got the land yet.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I must disappoint my good friend, the Member for Anson, when he said that he agreed with me on this question of the hours of a junior college. My idea was that it should be what it is. A college is a college. Students go to college for a multi-purpose. Besides studying, there is interaction and the lot. So it takes a longer time. I am all for these longer hours in the junior colleges.

But there is one little question which I have posed and which the Senior Minister of State has not been kind enough to answer. That question concerns the attitude of some of the Ministry's officials in handling students. As he has pointed out himself, the students are aged 16 years and above. They are young men and women.

The second point which I made was that some of the officials appeared not to be conversant with the policy. So if I could have some explanation, I will be too happy to withdraw my amendment.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Sir, Ministry officials generally speaking are conversant with the policy or else they would not be fit to do their job. He said that there were certain officials who could be brow-beating students in their arguments as such. I do not have the full facts, although I do hear some rumours of that sort. But if he could be kind enough to give me the full facts of the particular case, maybe together with the name of the student, I would look into it further to see that this thing does not happen again.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, before I withdraw I would like to tell the Senior Minister of State in the instance where the senior officials of the Ministry met the students, that the students were from the Catholic Junior College and the Anglo-Chinese Junior College. On that score, I must thank the Senior Minister of State for Education for his kind reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $429,963,510 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $50,058,400 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

4.15 p.m.

Head U -

The Chairman: Amendment (1), Mr Sia.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Sir, I am not moving,

The Chairman: Mr Govindaswamy.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1100 of Subhead Code UA-01 of the Main Estimates*.

Sir, we have heard of the case of a widow who lost her claim to her late husband's CPF contributions. I wonder what steps the CPF Board is taking to ensure that every CPF contributor has given particulars of his nominee in his nomination form, and also indirectly to see that the spouse of a married person has been nominated. The reason is that the contributor can make mistakes which are not deliberately done. These mistakes could be due to circumstances or ignorance. In that event the intended beneficiaries are put to inconvenience by a reference to the Public Trustee, or even denied the contributions. Perhaps, a check could be made of all the records of the contributors and remedial action taken before more people are made to suffer the same plight as the poor widow.

The Post Office Savings Bank is to be commended for its introduction of the Giro service where payment of bills, like HDB rentals, conservancy charges, property tax, PUB bills, etc. is made easier for the depositors. But then the services at some of the branches need to be improved especially during lunch hours. Very often, we see a long queue of office workers waiting for their turn during the lunch break, and the counters appear to be understaffed because of the staggered lunch hours of the bank workers. And because of the delay in dealing with the public during lunch hours, many people shy away from depositing money in this Government sponsored bank. Could something be done to expedite the services during the lunch hours so that depositors who are mostly office workers need not wait too long for their transactions?

I would also request the Minister to look into the question of introducing the cash card dispenser, where a depositor can withdraw a certain amount of money at any time of the day from the bank. In a way this will help many POSB depositors who are unable to withdraw their money during office hours.

Sir, why is the privilege of medical benefits for the family which is granted to civil servants denied to employees of some of the statutory boards? After all, like the civil servants, the workers of the statutory boards are also receiving the NWC allowances, the same number of days of vacation leave and they also follow most of the conditions of the civil service. Yet this privilege of medical benefits for the family is not granted to workers of the statutory boards. Why is it that we have double standards here? Could the Minister explain and also consider granting this privilege to the workers of the statutory boards?

I also want to know what steps are being taken to relieve the shortage of staff in the civil service, especially in the Ministries of Health, Education and Home Affairs. If we cannot get the right type of workers to take up jobs in these Ministries, I wonder whether the Minister would be liberal in recruiting foreign workers to fill the vacancies in a Ministry that is understaffed. And also could he liberally consider extending the services of those who have retired? In this respect, could the Minister give some facts and figures as to the number of persons who have retired but who were allowed to continue in service on a year to year basis?

Sir, I also want to know how many workers were not eligible for the 13th month non-pensionable annual allowance owing to retirement before 31st December. Though this topic of the 13th month allowance was dealt with thoroughly in the past, I would like the Minister to again review the conditions. He has said that when this allowance was introduced it was more or less being born like a cat and therefore it should be a cat and it is impossible to change the conditions. But then he should not forget that when it was first introduced the payment was made in the month of March. But it was later changed to December. I had advocated and I still say that consideration for the payment of the 13th month allowance should be 30th November and payment made during the Christmas season for the purpose of better administration both for the monthly rated and especially for daily-rated workers. The present system has a snag. After receiving their allowance around Christmas some employees abscond from duty, thereby giving the problem of recovering the allowance, especially where daily-rated workers are concerned. In the past there had been misunderstanding between certain families of deceased workers who had received the 13th month allowance although they were not eligible because they were not in service till 31st December, and their employers had tried to recover the 13th month allowance from the bereaved families.

It is also not fair to the loyal and dedicated workers who have been in service for so many years but because of compulsory retirement even one day before the end of the year they are denied the allowance, whereas a new recruit who has just joined the service for two months is eligible for this benefit. Could the Minister consider my suggestion that the last day for consideration of eligibility for the 13th month allowance should be 30th November instead of 31st December for the purpose of better administration.

Sir, very lately the NWC allowances of monthly-rated employees were consolidated into their basic salary. With this consolidation, many of the workers received a small increment and arrears. In this respect, what is the deal for the daily rated workers who are also receiving NWC allowances? So far, there has been no news about consolidation. Could the Minister enlighten the House when the daily-rated workers will get their deal?

I have also received complaints that the transport allowance for civil servants on official duty needs to be revised. For instance, the rates of allowance for motor-cycles are not appropriate to present conditions. The rates are very low. Could the rates of transport allowance be revised in accordance with present conditions?

Some years ago, to boost the morale in the civil service there was a recommendation to give merit increments to deserving civil servants. I would like to know how many civil servants in the various Divisions benefitted from this scheme last year.

Sir, we have seen development taking place in our country; our skyline is changing, old buildings are being demolished and skyscrapers are taking their place. But I notice that some of the buildings of the Ministries are very old. For instance, the Ministry of Health, which is supposed to look after the sick people, itself looks "sick" inside he building. The Health Ministry has been allocated a provision for improvement to its hospitals. Why is it that no provision is being made to improve this Ministry? Perhaps this Ministry and other Government departments too need a touch-up to keep up with the times. Members should take a look at the building of the Ministry of Health at Palmer Road. It is very congested. I brought this up during the last Budget session but there is still no improvement. One day when I went there I had to climb up four floors and I had difficulty in doing so. This is very bad for the people working there, especially old people. Maybe Mr Speaker should go and see the building for himself. Immediate action must be taken to instal a lift in the building. This matter must be considered seriously.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon is not here. Dr Lau.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, I would like to draw the Minister's attention to three specific grievances of the public sector employees who come under his charge. These grievances include, firstly the need for union officials to be represented at disciplinary inquiries; secondly, the need to revise the salary scale of Customs Officers, which has stagnated since 1959; and thirdly, the need to revise the salary scale of Immigration Officers, which has not been altered since 1970.

Under the present regulations a public employee under any disciplinary inquiry can only be represented either by a public officer or a legal officer. Sir, I am not under-rating the capability of either the public officer or the legal officer but I doubt whether he would defend the public employee without reservations. The public officer has certain inhibitions as he has to defend his subordinate and appear before those superior to him. On the other hand, to employ a legal officer to represent the employee is, of course, very costly. I would suggest that ,union officials be allowed to represent their members in any disciplinary inquiry. This would be a fair and just system. The union officials often are in a better position to give character references. They are more knowledgeable in office procedures, relationship between officers, and so on. In making this suggestion that union officials should be represented in such an inquiry, I would exclude issues involving criminal cases or corruption cases. But I would include issues like insubordination or absence from work, and so on. 4.30 p.m.

On the question of the salary scale of Customs Officers, which has stagnated for nearly 20 years, I would suggest to the Minister to look into this matter seriously, particularly in view of the fact that Customs Officers today have a very responsible and arduous task. They are involved in indoor and outdoor duties relating to Customs, Entertainment Duty, Dangerous Drugs and other Acts under which they have statutory powers. Their duties also include revenue collection, preventive patrol, work ashore and afloat, investigations and searches on board ships. Often in the line of duty they are engaged in hazardous preventive raids against smugglers and illicit distillers who also operate in swampy and thick jungle areas in the offshore islands. There have been occasions when these officers have been threatened with bodily injury and in some cases they have been actually assaulted during these preventive raids. Thus, in view of their significant responsibilities, their arduous tasks and also the high turnover in the Customs service, I would suggest that the Minister should look at the salary scale of the Customs officers.

As far as the turnover rate is concerned, for the years 1970-77, the figures for appointments and resignations in each of the years are as follows: Year Appointment Resignation 1970 163 66 1971 180 87 1972 94 70 1973 92 84 1974 191 84 1975 180 53 1976 67 16 1977 53 4 The other point, of course, is that it is known that the Customs and Excise Department produces between 40% and 50% of the total revenue of the State. Hence, any revision upwards for Customs Officers will not create much impact.

With regard to Immigration Officers, I have mentioned yesterday the general points with regard to their conditions of service and I would only concern myself with some specific points. Sir, in 1970 the Immigration Officers had a salary scale superior to the Prison warders and the Police constables. But today the position is reversed. In 1970 the Immigration Officer's minimum monthly salary was $165, with increments of $10 in one sector and $15 in the other, up to a maximum of $345. In the case of Prison warders, the minimum salary was $160 with an annual increment of $5 up to $215, and the Police constables a basic salary of $170 with annual increments of $10 up to a maximum of $270. Today, eight years later, the reverse has occurred. The Police constable's minimum monthly salary is now $170 with increments of $15 and $20 up to a maximum of $625. In the case of Prison warders, the minimum salary is $165 with a $15 increment up to a maximum of $345, and in the case of Immigration Officers, a minimum pay of $165 up to a maximum of $345. There is no change at all for the past eight years. The responsibilities of Immigration Officers have also increased over the years. I elaborated on them yesterday. They are now involved not only in checks at the various Immigration checkpoints but also in the search and detection of illegal immigrants. I would think that it would be fair and equitable to consider an upward revision of the salary scale of these officers.

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, I read with deep concern the joint statement by the Ministries of Finance and Communications yesterday which was published in the newspapers this morning regarding the incorporation on 17th February, 1978 of a new company, the Singapore Bus Service (1978) Ltd and the issue of 20 million shares at a dollar par value to the public. To enable a large number of people to buy the shares, particularly SBS employees who will be given priority in the new issue, the Government will amend the Central Provident Fund Act to allow CPF savings to be used to buy the shares, up to $5,000 of their CPF savings.

The statement from these Ministries also promised good management in the SBS, well enough to be able to pay 7 1/2% dividend to shareholders, and concession passes for unlimited travel to those who buy 1,000 or more shares with CPF savings.

Further, the statement says that experience had shown that with sound management and motivated staff, the Singapore Bus Service would provide a reliable and efficient service. It could also make a fair return on capital so long as bus fares are not fixed at unrealistic levels" and there had not been any fare rises since February 1974.

Sir, I welcome the declaration and move by the Government to further improve the standard of bus service to the public and the commitment to purchase more and better buses as well as improvements in depot and workshop facilities. Perhaps given time, resources and good management, the SBS may well be the answer to Singapore's chronic and challenging problem of providing a first rate means of public transport for the present as well as the future. This announcement probably provides a partial answer to queries as to why the Government is extremely cautious and reluctant to sink billions of dollars into the rail-based MRT. And why not have an efficient public road transport in the form of the new SBS rather than the MRT? Moreover, experience elsewhere has shown that a rail-based MRT does not necessarily provide the answer to an efficient public transport besides requiring costly initial capital and equally exorbitant cost of maintenance.

However, I find it imperative that I must voice strong reservations regarding the method of raising fresh capital for the new SBS. I have no quarrel with raising fresh capital by incorporating the SBS as a public company and to have its shares listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange.

To allow CPF contributions up to a maximum of $5,000 to be used to buy SBS shares is a totally new and unprecedented move that goes contrary to the spirit and purpose of the CPF. The Central Provident Fund was established in 1955 to provide workers in Singapore with some form of compulsory savings for their old age and in the event of their being permanently disabled. Our political philosophy today still does not embrace the debatable socialist ideal of a welfare state where the old and disabled are totally cared for in health and in sickness. The CPF other than pension benefits represents the only form of compulsory savings.

The CPF is jealously guarded and subscribers have so far only after much debate and persuasion been able to utilise CPF contributions to purchase low-cost HDB or JTC flats and middle-income Housing and Urban Development Company flats under the Approved Housing Schemes.

To permit CPF contributions to be withdrawn to buy SBS shares now is a move fraught with contradictions. Is this a move purely for capital raising? Is this a move to encourage the public to have a stake in the SBS? Can the Government guarantee that shareholders will not lose their hard-earned savings? Or are we encouraging the public to dabble in shares? Can the capital not be raised through the normal practice of a public issue of shares without touching the CPF? I submit the following views for the consideration of this House:

(1) That 20 million shares if bought up maximally per shareholder to the tune of $5,000 would mean 4,000 shareholders; and 4,000 new shareholders represent only 1/300% of 1.2 million CPF contributors.

(2) That any move to make SBS a profit-oriented public company will benefit only a small number of people. The need to adjust or revise fares is justified only in so far as it is necessary to make SBS solvent. That any unfair hike in fares is unjustified if profit is the prime motive. No doubt the shareholders will applaud any move to make the company a lucrative business proposition, but commuters will have to pay much more for transport.

(3) That public transport must be an efficient, reliable and cheap means of transportation, particularly in view of the Government's strong and merciless clamp-down on private car ownership.

(4) That $5,000 represents nearly 10 years of CPF savings for a wage earner with a monthly income of about $200, and in Singapore today about 90% of our wage earners earn less than $500 per month. What guarantee is there that a wage earner's old-age savings are not lost in part or whole through such a venture? Why touch the CPF when the CPF Board is able to maintain the same interest rate of 6 1/2% per annum which is credited to members' accounts? Can SBS ensure an all-weather 7 1/2% dividend to shareholders?

I should be most grateful if the Hon. Finance Minister would throw some light on the questions and doubts raised?

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, in his Budget Statement to this House a few days ago, the Minister for Finance enunciated the policy to shift our industries from items which are sensitive to protectionism towards goods and services which are not sensitive to protectionism. I fully support this policy in view not only of increasing protectionism that we face but also in view of the possible reclassification of Singapore from a developing country to a developed country which will mean the loss of status and qualification in respect of the Generalised System of Preferences under which our industries have enjoyed preferential access to the markets of the developed countries. Sir, I was rather concerned to read today that a Japanese manufacturer intends to set up a rather substantial facility in Singapore to produce colour television sets. Sir, Members may be aware that the import of colour television sets into America, for example, has been under intense fire from the labour unions and has come under protectionism, i.e. duties and quotas for imports of such goods into America.

4.45 p.m.

Sir, a similar circumstance occurred in the early 1970s in respect of textiles. At that time, the Hong Kong and Taiwanese textile manufacturers had already exhausted their quotas for preferential access to the developed markets and they were trying to come into Singapore to set up similar facilities so as to make use of whatever quota that was available to us. At that time, I was on the board of directors of the Economic Development Board and I argued strongly against letting these people come into Singapore for the simple reason that they were going to produce goods which were sensitive i.e. goods which came under special GSP quotas. And I am very glad that we did not get too deep into textile production because Members are again aware of the greater restrictions which have been imposed under the multi-fibre agreement late last year and early this year. Therefore, my question to the Finance Minister is whether officials down the line are aware of this new policy and, if not, can he explain to this House the setting up of this new facility to produce colour television sets?

Mr Teong Eng Siong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, the 1978 budget tabled by the Minister for Finance on 27th February has, apart from increasing car registration fee, entertainment duty, driving licence fee, colour TV licence fee and airport tax, also spelt out three company tax incentive schemes, and reduced personal income tax varying from 1% to 10%. These tax reduction measures are encouraging. People in the various business sectors give unanimous commendation to this progressive budget and are of the opinion that it will promote business activities in the Republic and strengthen confidence in our economic development. About half or $2,754 million of the total budget of $5,756 million has been allocated to development, indicating that the Government is continuing to invest huge sums of money in economic construction of the Republic to offset recession brought about by international economic depression, and to accelerate economic recovery. This undoubtedly is a dynamic policy which will definitely win the support of the people. Economic services take the lion's share of $1,185 million or 43% of the $2,700-odd million development budget. This shows that the Government will in the years to come make greater efforts to promote business activities, provide more employment opportunities for the people and upgrade the standard of living of the people. The largest allocation of $911 million or 33% goes to public housing. This shows that Government will speed up the construction of houses to provide more houses for the people so as to shorten the waiting period for houses. As all these development programmes are carried out in the interest of the future of the nation and the well-being of the people, Singaporeans should show an interest in these programmes and give their active support to ensure their success.

Sir, if we examine the economic achievements of the last financial year, we shall discover that the performance was still not bad. The Finance Minister disclosed that our economic growth rate last year was 7.8%, slightly higher than that for 1976. In the shadow of slow world economic recovery and in the face of trade protectionism widely practised by advanced countries, it is indeed a rare achievement to be able to put up such a performance. That we have been able to forge ahead in the face of adverse circumstances to achieve such good results is in my opinion due to our diversified economic policy, our policy of giving maximum encouragement to foreign investments and the policy of actively expanding external trade, in addition to other wise and practical policies drawn up by the Government. Of course, another major factor is the close co-operation among labour, management and the Government, thus ensuring political stability and good labour/management relations. Furthermore, the diligence of our workers is also an important contributing factor to our achieving economic development. The outstanding performance of our workers should win the recognition of the State.

Sir, I now wish to touch on the six items of tax increases. The increase in colour TV licence fee and telephone surcharge is not too big an amount. It may not cause too big a repercussion. However, the increase in entertainment duty will cause cinemas and entertainment organisations to raise their admission fees.

The Chairman: Mr Teong, we are not debating the Budget speech.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I am making some remarks only in passing. These measures will consequently increase the burden of the masses.

On the increase in the driving licence fee, a 100% increase is a bit too high. I hope some consideration would be given in this regard not to increase the driving licence fee of professional drivers. On the increase of $2 in airport tax, I feel that it is not a wise tax measure because there are many tourists coming here. From them we can get a lot of foreign exchange earnings. This is not a good way to encourage tourism; instead it will give the tourists a bad impression. Hence I feel that this increase in airport tax is unnecessary because we may lose a large amount of foreign exchange earnings.

Another point I would like to criticise is the reduction in personal income tax, which is a bit unfair. The Minister for Finance said that he would welcome suggestions from us for his consideration. I have a suggestion to make concerning taxable income ranging from $5,000 to $10,000 since people with such income levels get very little benefit in tax reduction. They are getting only from 1% to 3% benefit. I would like to suggest the following modifications to the tax reduction measures: New Suggested Chargeable Revised Revised income Tax Rate Tax Rate $ % % 0 - 2,500 5 3 2,501 - 5,000 8 5 5,001 - 7,500 10 6 7,501 - 10,000 12 7

The next question I would like to touch upon is manpower policy. I am in full support of the manpower policy proposed by the Finance Minister which is aimed at increasing efficiency and cutting down waste. In theory, this policy is very sound. But it is not easy to implement it fully and effectively. This is because the Government is a huge organisation with a large number of civil servants. So any slackening in supervision will result in manpower waste which is tantamount to a waste of national funds. I would like to suggest to the Minister to set up a supervisory committee which will make regular reviews of the various departments and to mete out appropriate punishment for those civil servants whose performance is poor and to award and even promote those whose performance is good.

Finally, I would like to raise two questions. First, I would like to ask the Minister whether he will inform this House of the details of our joint business ventures with Thailand. What are the items planned? When are these joint business schemes expected to be implemented?

Secondly, will the Minister inform us in how many countries have we been issuing public bonds up to-date, and at what rate of interest? In the coming years, are there any plans to issue bonds in other countries? Although these bond issues are a help to our economic development, however, an indiscriminate issue of the bonds may not be good because every issue means an additional debt for our country. Speaking from the point of view of a small country like ours which is developing, we should best look internally for any capital available for our developmental needs, rather than relying on others.

Sir, I hope the Minister will pay attention to my points.

The Chairman: I think it will be a good idea to take the Suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and shall take the Chair again at 5.30 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.58 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head U (cont) -

Mr Ivan Baptist (Potong Pasir): Sir, the exercise on consolidation of 1973-77 NWC allowances into the salary scales has caused great concern especially among Division II, III and IV officers.

The Public Employee headlines in January 1978, screamed, and I quote:

'Salary scales extended, disparity in incremental rates ...... AUPE calls for meeting with Finance Ministry to resolve problems.' There should not have been problems in the first place if the Union was consulted and the salaries consolidation worked out sensibly. In February 1978, the Public Employee again headlined on the same subject: "AUPE makes proposals to Ministry of Finance to rectify anomalies." Does the Ministry of Finance not realise that good industrial relations means discussions and sorting out matters with the unions before implementation? If this had been done, there would have been no anomalies. What are the anomalies? When will they be corrected?

The nature and principles of consolidation as outlined by the Ministry of Finance and I quote a letter dated 31st October, 1977 from the Ministry:

'The new consolidated scales compromise such gross salary points rounded up to give rational salary points and rates of increments.' This was further explained in the annexure to the letter:

'The new consolidated salary points comprise existing salary points plus the 1973-77 NWC allowances payable rounded up to the nearest multiple of $5 so as to give meaningful new salary points and incremental rates.' Unfortunately, Sir, here "meaningful" must have meant "with less meaning" because to the Division II, III and IV officers in that order, the meaning became more and more garbled. Most of the Division I officers had their salaries rounded up by a number and in multiples of $5 on consolidation whilst many Divisions II, III and IV officers had their salaries rounded down on consolidation. Injustice speaks loud but falls on deaf ears. My hope is, Sir, that the Hon. Minister will give the House the assurance that these anomalies are rectified with haste. Let the workers, the ones that have been unfairly treated, appreciate that a wrong can be righted. I have many documents in my possession that would further strengthen my case. But I am sure the Hon. Minister, being a just man, has been convinced by what I have already said and would take steps to correct the position in favour of those disadvantaged, after going much deeper into the matter.

Sir, could I move to another area. On the 20th April, 1976, two almost similar circulars were issued to All Permanent Secretaries on the "Abolition of Acting Allowances in the Civil Service". One was signed by the Permanent Secretary (Prime Minister's Office) and the other by the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Finance (Budget).

The circular tediously outlined the cessation of the then going system of acting allowances with effect from 1st July 1976, and its gradual replacement by responsibility allowances, and the modification of grading appointments into departmental designations. Paragraph 7 of the circular states:

'it is recognised, however, that a number of appointments in the Civil Service in Divisions I, II and possibly III demand higher responsibilities from officers holding such appointments. These appointments demanding higher responsibilities will be considered and graded by a committee consisting of PS (PMO), PS (Finance) (Budget) and Secretary, PSC representing the Commission, and the list of such appointments will be submitted to the PSC for approval and published in the Government gazette.'

After some years to study, the Responsibility Allowance Circular was issued by Permanent Secretary (Finance) (Budget) dated 1st March, 1978, stating that with effect from 1st March, 1978, the very day that the circular was issued, the Responsibility Allowance System would be introduced and acting allowances would cease.

Sir, the introduction of the Responsibility Allowance System meant a substantial loss in quantum of allowance as against the Acting Allowance system, although the job performed is exactly the same. From more than $200 per month, acting allowances dropped to $150 per month for Division I officers, $75 per month for Division II officers and $50 per month for Division III officers. Are these drastic reductions in allowances justifiable? Sir, in addition, officers will need to perform the duties of the approved responsibility appointment for 60 days or more. Acting allowances were paid when officers performed acting duties for two weeks or more. It must be stressed that duties performed remain unchanged. The only change is in terminology - "Acting" to "Responsibility". Where, Sir, is the justice?

Then again, unsure of the circular issued on the 1st March, 1978, a further circular was issued on the 3rd March, 1978, by the Permanent Secretary (Prime Minister's Office) extending to Superscale Officers eligibility for a responsibility allowance of $150 per month if they are called upon to perform the duties of Permanent Secretaries. The earlier circular disallowed substantive Superscale Officers from obtaining the allowance. The latter circular also disallowed Division I officers on probation from qualifying for responsibility allowance payments. I do not wish to comment on the sudden changes in two short days to warrant the issue of a second circular, Sir. I leave that to your better judgment.

I also believe Appendix A of the first circular lists out the approved responsibility appointments. Strangely enough, contrary to paragraph 7 of the circular dated 20th April, 1976, which I quoted earlier, there were no Division III officers and very few Division II officers on Appendix A. Could the Hon. Minister tell the House how many Divisions I, II and III officers are on Appendix A? Why are Divisions II and III officers being discriminated against?

Sir, I would like now to speak on consumer protection. Safeguarding consumers from products that are dangerous or likely to injure health is a major area of consumer protection. A consumer safety policy boasts of the principal objects of ensuring that goods available to people present no undue risk; that people are warned about hazards they may find in products and advised on how to avoid them; and that unsafe goods can be withdrawn from sale or modified immediately.

The main legislation dealing with consumer safety is the Consumer Protection (Trade Descriptions and Safety Requirements) Act. Section 11 of the Act empowers the Minister to make regulations prescribing safety for any class of consumer goods where such action is considered to be expedient to prevent or reduce the risk of death or personal injury. Actual and potential risk pointed to the need for a general statutory power enabling the sale of hazardous goods to be prohibited. The Minister has still got to lay down safety requirements by means of statutory regulations.

In addition to the Consumer Protection Act, the Medicines Act provides for the control of medicines throughout all stages of manufacture, import, storage and distribution. The Act introduced a comprehensive control of medicines based on safety, efficacy and quality.

The Sale of Food Act, the Environmental Public Health Act, the Public Utilities Board Act, the Radiation Protection Act, and existing regulations to some of these Acts provide for consumer health and safety protection in their respective areas.

As every consumer wants a safe product, safely designed, safely made and safe for use or consumption, a product minus all reasonable hazards to health and safety, and as Government wants to ensure that its people are guarded against unsafe and hazardous products, it is of vital importance to all concerned that consumer products presenting potential hazards be made as safe as is reasonably possible.

As a matter of principle, consumers naturally desire and demand product safety. Manufacturers, in the wake of much consumer activism, cannot but overtly think about it and most times work towards achieving it, whilst Government supports it and where necessary, enforces it.

There are, however, some grey areas in legislation for product safety in Singapore.

This resulted in the formation of the Consumer Protection Co-ordinating Committee in May 1975, comprising the Director, Consumer Protection, in the chair and representatives from SISIR, the Department of Scientific Services (then the Chemistry Department), the Ministries of Health and the Environment, PUB, the Registry of Trade Marks and Patents and CASE. Consumer protection in product safety is a major in the Committee's terms of reference. However, the committee met but thrice, in June and October of 1975 and in February of 1976.

As the committee is defunct, matters affecting the health and safety of consumers is being directed by CASE to what it considers the relevant Ministries that can assist. This, in addition to being time consuming, also posed problems of cost and areas of responsibility.

There are at present many potentially dangerous products that need attention. Some of these were listed for the attention of the Consumer Protection Co-ordinating Committee but were kept in abeyance.

The Chairman: Mr Baptist, your 10 minutes are up.

The Minister for Finance (Mr Hon Sui Sen): Sir, there are many questions raised by Members and I propose to reply to some of them and leave the other questions to my Senior Minister of State to reply.

The first Member I want to reply to is the Member for Kim Seng who raised a matter of, I think, topical interest, i.e. the question of the Singapore Bus Service and the statement which was issued yesterday by my Ministry and the Ministry of Communications. I think he set out in the first part of his statement certain pertinent matters which are relevant to the reply which I shall give and which he did not seem to take into consideration when he posed his subsequent question. First of all, I must congratulate him on the concern he felt for the use of CPF monies. I myself am very hesitant about the use of CPF monies. In fact originally I had some doubts whether it should be used for JTC or HUDC housing. I think in retrospect we were right in extending the use of CPF monies for only HDB housing to also HUDC and JTC housing. I have, however, resisted attempts by the private sector to suggest that the CPF monies should also be used for the purchase of private houses. I think it is still correct that such monies should not be used.

With regard to its suggested use for the Singapore Bus Service (1978) Limited, there has, of course, been some hesitation about it. But I feel it is right if you want to achieve one of the main objectives of this particular exercise for making the Bus Company a public company. This is to spread the ownership of its shares as widely as possible. Of course, it would be possible to float the company without the use of CPF monies. The effect of this would be to throw it open to the investing public, the public that has a lot of capital to invest and it might end up in the hands of a few, maybe a hundred persons. What we want is to achieve the objective of spreading it among, if possible the people who use the bus, i.e. the commuters. Since I do not suppose many people have spare savings of up to $5,000, I think the only way this can be done is to use the CPF money. 5.45 p.m.

The Member asked a number of questions. Perhaps I can go through them in the way he asked them. Is this move purely for capital raising? The answer is no. We want to raise capital but we want to raise it from the people who are bus commuters. Is this a move to encourage the public to have a stake in SBS? The answer is yes, and the reason is given in the first part of the statement which he made, which comes from the statement of the Ministries of Finance and Communications which is to enable large numbers of people to buy the shares, particularly SBS employees who will be given priority in the new issue. The Government will amend the Central Provident Fund Act to allow savings to be used to buy the shares.

Can the Government guarantee that shareholders will not lose their hard-earned savings? The word "guarantee" means that the Government will issue a guarantee on behalf of a company, which is a private company, in which the Government may own some shares but in which the Government hopes that the majority of the shares will be held by the bus-using public. The guarantee will not be given in the form of a Government guarantee to the company, but we are reasonably assured that the company will be viable and shareholders will not lose their hard-earned savings.

Are we encouraging the public to dabble in shares? The answer is no. We are asking the bus-using public to make an investment in these shares and we say that, since it is going to be run with Government assistance, it will be viable, will be properly run and will be able to make sufficient money to pay a dividend of at least 7 1/2%.

Can capital not be raised through the normal practice of a public issue of shares without touching the CPF? The answer is yes. Probably the balance sheet and the profit and loss statement which will appear eventually in the prospectus to be issued will show a very healthy state. But the intention is not just to raise money through a public issue. It is to have an issue which will be subscribed to by the people who will use the buses.

He submitted the following views for the consideration of the House. Twenty million shares, if bought maximally per shareholder to the tune of $5,000 would mean 4,000 shareholders, and 4,000 new shareholders represent only 1/300% of 1,200,000 CPF contributors. The intention is not that there should be 4,000 shareholders owning $5,000 of shares each. I would be very happy if all the 1,200,000 CPF contributors apply, in which case it would give 16 shares each. I assume there will not be 1,200,000 shareholders but I hope there would be sufficient to spread it evenly. We may have to ballot on the basis of each getting 500 to 1,000 shares. Then there will be enough to make the issue as widely spread as possible. I hope there will be more than 4,000 shareholders.

He then said:

'That any move to make SBS a profit-oriented public company will benefit only a small number of people. The need to adjust or revise fares is justified only in so far as it is necessary to make SBS solvent.' and

'That any unfair hike in fares is unjustified if profit is the prime motive. No doubt the shareholders will applaud any move to make the company a lucrative business proposition, but commuters will have to pay much more for transport.' The answer to this is that bus fares are, of course, determined by the Government and obviously it will not be the intention to make this a profit-oriented company. It will be unfair. A balance will be struck between the needs and benefits of the commuters and the benefits of the shareholders. The intention is that it will be a viable company and that the SBS should not be subsidised. It should be run like the PUB and the TAS so that it can be enabled to make an adequate return on capital. In the case of the PUB, I think the World Bank laid the condition that it should be able to pay 8% on its capital so that there will be enough to enable it to plough back its earnings to invest in new equipment.

The Member also suggested:

'That public transport must be an efficient, reliable and cheap means of transportation, particularly in view of the Government's strong and merciless clamp-down on private car ownership.' I do not agree with the word "merciless" there. But otherwise I subscribe to the same sentiments.

'That $5,000 represents nearly 10 years of CPF savings for a wage earner with a monthly income of about $200 and in Singapore today about 90% of wage earners earn less than $500 a month. What guarantee is there that a wage earner's old-age savings are not lost in part or whole through such a venture?' The answer is that I do not expect any shareholder to lose his earnings. I expect that he will be able to get a dividend of at least 7 1/2% on his investment. As to the market value of the shares, that of course is not within the determination of the Government. It can vary from par to perhaps $2 or more per share or might go down slightly, but I do not expect that it will be a bad proposition.

'Why touch the CPF when the CPF Board is able to maintain the same interest rate of 6 1/2% per annum which is credited to members' accounts?' Of course, there is no compulsion on anyone who believes it is safer to keep the money at 6 1/2% in the CPF and, as I said, I do not expect 1,200,000 contributors to make the application. So, a fair amount will probably remain in the CPF account.

"Can SBS ensure an all-weather 7 1/2% dividend to shareholders?"

The SBS will be enabled to pay a dividend of at least 7 1/2%. That is the answer to this particular question. The Government is reasonably confident, with the kind of management which has been provided and which we have had sufficient experience and knowledge of, that there is an assurance it will be maintained. I hope my statement will assuage some of the doubts which the Member has and perhaps the feelings of the other people whom he no doubt represents.

I now turn to the Member for Whampoa's question on the policy of the Government to turn away from sensitive products to products which are less sensitive. He questioned the wisdom and expressed his concern about the announcement which has been made for Hitachi to manufacture colour TV tubes in Singapore. His concern was expressed because of the action which the United States has taken in regard to colour TV sets imported into the United States. He mentioned that in the case of textiles he had some misgivings and advised against it when he was on the board of the Economic Development Board. On this, he also asked the question whether officials are aware of the new policy. I think there is no doubt that they are aware of the new policy. Our policy making is like the Japanese practice. It is a sort of consensus. It comes from the bottom. It is agreed and comes up in a formal policy which is promulgated by myself in this Chamber. But there is no doubt that the officials are aware of the new policy.

Then he asked that if they are aware how is it that they are promoting the production of TV sets? The answer is quite simple. In promotion, we try to suggest that there are certain industries which we would particularly like to see investment in. However, the investment is left to the entrepreneur. If he feels that in spite of all that the Government suggests he has got a certain expertise in a particular product and he feels confident that he can market it, then the manufacturer is allowed to go on with the manufacture of that product. In this particular case, the promotion has been carried out over a fairly long period of time. Two to three years would probably be correct. While we would not suggest that there should be other TV manufacturers, but if someone also feels that the field is still quite open and it is only in the United States that the product has become sensitive and there is no objection to production, say, in the ASEAN market which has not yet bought enough TV sets or that he can market the product in Japan or Europe as the case may be, he is entitled to proceed.

In our policy, we have also got to be practical. Because the scope of protectionism was extended, first of all, to textiles and then to shoes. It was later extended to TV sets and then to other products, like calculators and so on. It may be that if we say that we will not produce anything which is at all sensitive in any one country, then we will end up producing nothing. In this particular industry of electronics, the manufacturer's operations can extend over a very wide range. Of course, he can start with the quartz crystal and then grow it for making wafers. He then cuts the wafers and makes the chips and so on, and eventually when he has all these components he makes them into some consumer electronics. 6.00 p.m.

Whether it is a colour TV set he should make or whether it is a video tape recorder and so on which also requires a TV set, it is no doubt a matter which the manufacturer will take into consideration. It will be unlike textiles which may be more sensitive. If he finds that colour TV sets cannot sell, they may be used for playing video games or for video tape recorder and as information media. I think the Telecommunications programme for the next five years will include developing video information services or the transmission of video data. In this particular case, therefore while I am not saying that there might not be some sensitivity if we try to export the item to the United States, it may not be altogether undesirable that we have colour TV tubes produced in Singapore. The other answers, Sir, will be given by my Senior Minister of State.

The Senior Minister of State for Finance (Mr Goh Chok Tong): Mr Speaker, Sir, several issues have been raised by Members, some of which are new and some are not so new. As the Member for Anson has been most prolific in his comments, I shall reply to his comments first. He has raised a number of issues. In fact, altogether nine questions were asked by him. I shall answer the questions in the order they were asked. First regarding CPF nominations, the answer is simple. The matter comes under the Ministry of Labour, and I would suggest that he raise the matter under the appropriate head.

Regarding the congestion at the POSB counters during lunch time, I would like to thank the Member for his concern. But POSB staff must also have their lunch. If we were to have a full complement during lunch time, there will be a surplus of staff during the off-peak hours. However, I would like to assure the Member for Anson that the POSB is aware of the problem and has, in fact, taken a number of steps to improve the situation. One of the reasons for the congestion is the printing speed of the on-line computer banking terminal. In July last year, the POSB signed an agreement with a computer manufacturer for an initial supply of 98 new generation on-line banking terminals to replace the old banking terminals. The new generation terminals have a higher printing speed and would therefore enable the bank to achieve a faster turn-about at its counters. The first batch of the new generation terminals is scheduled to be installed sometime this year.

On the question of introducing a cash card dispenser, I would like to inform Members that the POSB is, in fact, looking into something better than that, i.e. the installation of the more sophisticated On-line Automated Teller Machines, or ATM, at its offices to complement its human tellers. The ATM, in simple language, is a sophisticated cash dispenser. It is activated by a depositor's personal plastic card. But unlike the ordinary cash dispenser it is on-line to the main computer and also allows for the withdrawal of cash in varying denominations. This added self-service banking facility will provide a new convenience to depositors. It will also serve as queue breakers during the lunch hour period and during other peak periods of the month. The bank had, in fact, already organised two demonstrations of ATM facility at two of its branches recently. While it is impossible to eliminate queues entirely, the implementation of the foregoing measures will undoubtedly ease the congestion at the POSB counters during lunch hours.

On medical benefits for the families of statutory board officers, I have to inform the Member for Anson that statutory boards have their own schemes of medical benefits for their employees and their families. If the Member has any specific statutory board in mind, I would suggest that he raise the matter with the Minister in charge of that body.

Regarding the shortage of staff in the Ministries of Health, Education and Home Affairs, the Ministries concerned will be in a better position to enlighten the Member on the steps that are being taken to recruit the necessary staff. I have no doubt that they are aware of the problem and are doing their utmost in consultation with the recruiting authority to overcome the staff shortage.

The Member has suggested the recruitment of foreigners to fill vacancies. In fact, this is being done. For instance, professional officers, like engineers and architects, have been recruited from abroad. Existing practice also does allow for the re-employment of pensioners where their services are required. The Member's suggestion has also been taken into account in the existing practice. He has asked for some figures on the re-employment of pensioners. I am sorry that I do not have the figures as pensioners who are re-employed from year to year are being handled by the individual Ministries concerned.

The Member has also suggested that cut-off dates for the payment of the Non Pensionable Annual Allowance should be 30th November instead of 31st December as at present. This matter has been discussed in previous sittings of Parliament and it has been explained to the House that the allowance is intended to be a 13th month salary supplement to be paid to officers still in the service at the end of the year. There is therefore no reason to change the cut-off date. Once you change the cut-off date to say, 30th November, there is bound to be suggestions from other MPs for other cut-off dates. For example, we could have cut-off dates as at the end of January. The reason for payment to be made on 31st December, or a few days earlier, the cut-off date being 31st December, is that December is usually the festive season and that is the most appropriate time for the 13th month salary supplement to be paid. 6.10 p.m.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

The Senior Minister of State for Finance (Mr Goh Chok Tong): The Member has also made some observations on the retirement of officers. Again, here I am unable to provide figures on the number of officers who are not eligible for the non-pensionable annual allowances due to retirement last year. This is because the retirement of officers is dealt with by the Ministries concerned.

On the consolidation of the NWC allowances of daily-rated employees, this matter is under consideration. When a decision has been made, instructions will be issued to the Ministries.

The rates of transport allowance for civil servants were, in fact, reviewed only recently, in October last year. The review indicates that the current motor-cycle and scooter rates are fair and reasonable. Others would say that they are unfair and unreasonable. One can always have differences of opinion. The current motor car rates are, in our opinion, also fair for small cars. But I concede that they are slightly low, but only slightly, for the bigger cars. However, it is not 'the intention of the Government to encourage ownership of bigger cars. The rates of transport allowance will be reviewed periodically and adjustments made whenever necessary.

The merit increment scheme for good-performing officers, which the Member has touched on, has ceased to apply in the Civil Service. If the Member has any questions to raise on the scheme, I would suggest that he address them to the Prime Minister's Office as the scheme is under its purview.

With regard to the observations about the "sick" Ministry of Health building and also the need to maintain other Government premises, funds are provided in two block votes shown under the PWD for such a purpose. A sum of $6 million is included in Head N, Subhead NB 07, item 2110 for the maintenance of all Government premises. Another sum of $3 million is provided under Head N, Subhead NB 01, item 8102 for, amongst other things, renovations to Government buildings. The maintenance of all Government buildings is undertaken by the PWD. There are, therefore, funds available for the Ministry of Health premises to be improved. 6.15 p.m.

I now come to the two observations made by the Member for Serangoon Gardens. First, the representation of union officials in disciplinary committees and, secondly, the salary scales of Customs and Immigration Officers. Perhaps it would be useful if I were to recount briefly to the House the procedures for disciplinary proceedings in the Civil Service. The arrangement for the conduct of disciplinary proceedings in the Civil Service is laid down in the Public Service Regulations (Disciplinary Proceedings) 1970. Under the arrangement, the Public Service Commission may cause disciplinary proceedings to be instituted against an officer when it is represented to the Commission by a Permanent Secretary that the officer has been guilty of misconduct or neglect of duty and if the Commission is of the opinion that the subject of the complaint warrants proceedings with a view to dismissal or reduction in the rank of the officer.

The officer is then notified in writing by his Permanent Secretary of the grounds upon which it is intended to dismiss him or to reduce his rank. The officer is also informed in writing or any other circumstances which it is proposed to take into consideration. He is given not less than seven working days within which to exculpate himself in writing. If the Public Service Commission finds the exculpatory statement submitted by the officer unsatisfactory, the Commission will appoint a Committee to inquire into the matter and to submit a report to the Commission. The Committee appointed by the Public Service Commission consists of three members, two of whom are public officers. The other member is not a public officer but is chosen from a panel of persons nominated by the Public Service Commission.

The Committee is not a judicial or quasi-judicial body. Its function is to investigate and evaluate the facts and circumstances of the case as put to it during its inquiry. At the end of its inquiry, the Committee submits its report to the Commission setting out its findings. The officer under inquiry has to be present at the inquiry. He is permitted to cross-examine witnesses, to give evidence on his own behalf, to have such witnesses as he may wish to call upon on his behalf and to have access to information contained in any documents at a reasonable time before such documents are tendered in evidence. Also he may be permitted at the discretion of the Committee to be represented by another public officer who could also be a union officer or an advocate and solicitor.

The Public Service Commission decides on the culpability and the punishment to be imposed on the officer, taking into consideration the report of the Committee. The present arrangement on the conduct of disciplinary proceedings therefore accords an officer the fullest opportunity of being legally represented and heard. Experience has shown that the arrangement has given officers a fair and unbiased hearing. It has worked satisfactorily and in the interest of the civil service. There are therefore no grave circumstances to change the existing procedure.

On the Member's observation regarding the salary scales of Customs and Immigration Officers, it is true that these scales have not been revised for quite some time. BUt the non-revision is also true of several other grades. Other categories of Government officers also do not enjoy revision in salary scales. This is because the Government policy on restructuring of salary scales or schemes of service is that this will be considered only if they are intended to rectify anomalies, to facilitate staff deployment or improve career development prospects.

The Member has quoted some figures to show the alarming situation in the Customs Service. Perhaps the intention was to emphasise the need to revise the salary scales as the turnover was high. But then I think there are other factors behind the turnover. I would not at this stage know what the factors are but this could be the nature of the job, the harsh conditions of the job, perhaps the salary scale. But the high percentage of turnover does suggest that we should look into the situation seriously and that will be done. We would, of course, examine the salary scale and see whether that is in fact the cause for the high turnover.

Sir, I would next move to the observations of the Member for Potong Pasir. First, he made some observations regarding acting allowances and responsibility allowances. Second, he spoke on consumer protection before he was "guillotined". The subject of acting allowances and responsibility allowances is a complex one. One of the reasons for the abolition of acting allowances was that the whole nature of officers acting in higher grades was getting out of hand. Each time an officer goes on leave or goes abroad, not only would the officer below him act in that capacity, but we find that there is a whole string of people acting because when one moves up, the one at the bottom would move up to his position to act. And it is therefore thought more equitable if we were to define "responsibility". Hence the introduction of the scheme to replace the acting allowances. The responsibility allowance scheme introduced only very recently delineates levels of responsibility in the civil service and accordingly distinguishes three levels of command and control in relation to the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry. In fact, these matters are fully spelt out in the circular and I think it would not do the House much good by my going through the various definitions and terms in this circular.

The Member has asked for some figures of Division I, II and III officers of those posts listed in Appendix A. Before I give Members the necessary figures, it must be emphasised that the gradings were worked out by matching the appointments to the gradings as in the FY 1976 Establishment List. As Members know, since FY 77, the establishment List has been presented by personnel groupings and posts failing within each individual personnel group are no longer graded. For those posts listed in Appendix A, there are 591 posts in Division I plus the Heads of Missions for which we have not counted the number of posts; 40 in Division II and nil in Division III.

On the Member's observation on the need to protect consumers from certain aspects of advertisements, he has mentioned that there are some grey areas for which no single authority appears to be responsible.

Mr Ivan Baptist: On a point of clarification, Sir.

The Chairman: Mr Goh, are you prepared to give way?

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Yes, Sir.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, as I was saying just now, I believe I did speak on consumer protection a few minutes earlier. I would like to clarify the points in regard to consumer protection. As there are many potentially dangerous products that need attention -

The Chairman: Mr Baptist, are you supplementing or are you clarifying?

Mr Ivan Baptist: I am clarifying, Sir, I have to go into a few minor points before I can clarify.

The Chairman: Please go straight to the point of clarification.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Straight into it then, Sir. Could the Hon. Senior Minister of State revive the co-ordinating committee in the form of a consultative committee? Members of the committee could be consulted in their specialised fields. They could deal especially with product safety among other consumer matters that are contained in the various consumer protection legislation. Each of the representatives of the committee is from a competent authority with the Director of Consumer Protection still as Chairman as he would be the most appropriate. That is one point of clarification.

The other point is: could the representative from the Industrial Health Department, Ministry of Labour, sit on the Committee as the IHD can assist with their expertise in the health hazard areas?

Could the Committee be empowered to draft regulations for consumer health and safety among other regulations for inclusion in the Consumer Protection Act?

Could the Committee be given some financial -

The Chairman: Order. Mr Baptist, if you want to supplement your remarks, you can do that after the Minister has replied. If you want to clarify, perhaps on the point about "grey areas" which the Minister was mentioning, can you please clarify that straightaway?

Mr Ivan Baptist: You are pre-empting me, Sir.

The Chairman: Can you please clarify that? Otherwise please allow the Senior Minister of State to reply.

Mr Ivan Baptist resumed his seat

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member is asking a number of questions by way of making a clarification. The short answer is that there is no need to revive the committee which the Member mentioned. The committee is actually the Consumer Protection Co-ordinating Committee which has representatives from the Ministries of Health, the Environment, Science and Technology, the PUB, the Department of Trade, SISIR and CASE, I believe the Member himself, or his representative serves on the Committee. It is true that the Committee has not met as often as the Member would like it to be.

Mr Ivan Baptist: It last met in 1976.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, there is no reason why members who are on the Committee cannot suggest to the Chairman that meetings should be held more regularly if there are matters to be discussed. So I would leave it to the Member, if he thinks that the Committee needs reviving, to take the initiative to revive the Committee. The Committee is not deed. 6.30 p.m.

The Member for Potong Pasir mentioned about certain anomalies resulting from the consolidation exercise, that for certain grades in the Civil Service figures were rounded upwards while for other categories figures were rounded downwards. He wanted an assurance from the Minister that the matter will be corrected. I am not aware at this stage that for certain grades the figures were rounded upwards and for other grades the figures were rounded downwards. If these anomalies are there, I would give him my assurance that we will take the necessary stops to correct them if we are convinced that they need correction.

The Member for Sembawang raised a number of matters which were raised by other Members and also by himself during the debate on the Budget Statement. For those particular issues, I do not propose to repeat the answers that have been given. I will leave out his observations on licence fees, colour television, tax and driving licence. But I will go on to touch on his other observations.

The Member for Sembawang touched on the income tax rates and the benefits for those with chargeable incomes between $5,000 and $10,000. He seemed to give the impression that this particular group of income taxpayers did not benefit very much from the new income tax rates structure. I do not think that is correct because our figures show that the average tax benefit per taxpayer (for those within the bracket of $5,000 and $10,000 chargeable incomes) varies from 13.3% to 16.7%. This is considered equitable bearing in mind that the average as a whole is 14.6%. Comparison in tax reductions in absolute terms, as we all know, is not meaningful, as the lower income groups pay much less tax. Indeed, the objective of the income tax revision is to make income tax less inequitable to all categories of taxpayers.

On manpower policy, the Member touched on the need to have a supervisory committee to review the performance of those in the Civil Service. In brief, the objective is to find ways of raising the efficiency of the Civil Service. I share the concern of the Member for Sembawang. The need to enhance the effectiveness of the Civil Service is recognised and efforts are constantly directed towards this. Ministries and departments, with the assistance of the Management Services Department and Computer Services Department, undertake reviews of their organisational setup and work procedures constantly with a view to improving their working arrangement to meat changing requirements. Where feasible, work processes are computerised or mechanised to improve efficiency. Apart from sending officers abroad for training, which will improve the efficiency of the officers concerned, in-service courses are also conducted at the Civil Service Staff Development Institute for serving officers, especially those in supervisory and managerial positions. These courses aim at imparting the basic supervisory and managerial skills to the officers to better equip them in the discharge of their duties. These are on-going processes in the Civil Service and, therefore, we have the necessary machinery to enhance the effectiveness of officers in the Civil Service. I think the existing machinery will meet the need of his suggestion to have a separate supervisory committee because part of the work of his intended committee is, in fact, done by the Management Services Department.

The Member has also asked for some details of the joint venture between Singapore and Thailand. The first joint venture company with Thailand, the Sin Thai Grains (Pte) Ltd. was established in Singapore in June 1977, on a 50-50 share basis between the Primary Industries (pte) Ltd. of Singapore and the Thai Marketing Organisation for Farmers, which is a public enterprise of the Thai Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives. The company has an authorised capital of S$l million and a paid-up capital of S$50,000. The objective of this trading company is to promote trade between Thailand and Singapore, focusing initially on the export of Thai agricultural products to Singapore on the one hand and the export of fertilisers, insecticides, agricultural machineries and related goods from Singapore to Thailand on the other.

The Member also raised the question of Singapore issuing bonds abroad. I cannot quite recall whether he has asked for figures of the foreign loans raised abroad. Anyway, the total amount of foreign loans raised to-date is $535,507,886. At the moment there is no proposal to raise further loans in other countries. As to why Singapore should raise these foreign loans, there are two principal reasons. One is to establish Singapore's credit standing in the foreign capital market. In borrowing funds, I think the important point to remember is that one should go into the market when one is in a strong position and not when one requires funds from the banks. They would not lend him, or even if they lend, the interest rates will be different. As we are in a strong position it is a good time for us to establish our credit standing in the foreign capital markets. The second reason is to take advantage of the favourable terms which prevail in the market, including low interest rates and the length of maturity of the loans.

I believe I have covered most of the points, if not all the points, raised by Members.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I refer first to the reply by the Minister for Finance in response to my comments about the need to shift our production out of sensitive products. Sir, while it is true that manufacturers make their own calculations and their own projections and sometimes they would still go ahead despite Government warnings, I think it is still the object of public policy to give guidance and set directions in which industries ought to move. For example, the case of Hong Kong, which has pursued a largely laissez faire type of economic policy, has resulted in a very unhealthy situation in so far as over-concentration of industrial production and exports, particularly in respect of textiles, is concerned. Members may know that during the 1974-75 recession whereas Singapore still enjoyed a positive growth rate of 4% or so, Hong Kong was in a minus growth rate region. Therefore, I believe that what Government ought to do is to monitor the situation in the advanced countries very closely to find out which products are likely in the foreseeable future to come under protectionist pressures. It is not all that difficult to identify or to monitor, for the simple reason that one can study data on industrial production, especially excess capacity and the state of the market in these products, to find out what are the likely products in this danger category. Furthermore, in this whole matter of Generalised System of Preferences (GSP), sometimes one gets the impression from newspapers and speeches that GSP is something that is heaven-sent. It is a gift and so on. But in reality there would not be any need for GSP if there were not any protection in the advanced countries which are giving these GSP concessions. First of all, they slap on tariffs and quotas. They say, "All right, you are a poor guy. We give you these concessions. Instead of paying 100%, you pay 50%. Be a good guy. As long as you do not export to us more than so much a year, you can continue to enjoy this benefit. If you want growth of export, it is all right provided it is beneath a certain set percentage again. Of course, we feel free to take it away from you when our own products are unduly threatened." So there is a re-classification of imports from time to time. 6.45 p.m.

Recently, in the last few months or so, we have seen examples where products which are not on the sensitive list but under GSP were put on the sensitive list and subject to quotas. My point was very simply that we should not get over-involved in items under GSP, for the simple reason that there is protectionism and rising protectionism, and furthermore we are in danger of re-classification. So if we allow foreign manufacturers to come in and use us as a production base to get through the back-door, so to speak, to the advanced countries' markets because their own exports of these categories are being shut off by protectionism directly, then I think we are only asking for trouble in the future. That was the sum total of my point.

Sir, may I also make a comment in regard to the Singapore Bus Service Ltd. on the new proposal to sell shares to bus workers and the bus commuting public. Since bus workers and bus commuters normally look forward or plan to buy flats with their CPF balances, I am just wondering how much they have left, in terms of their CPF balances, to spare for the purpose of buying SBS shares. Is the Government thinking of allowing them to use the extra half percent which is expressly set aside for retirement benefit?

One curious thing which I noted in reading about this proposal was the intention to give a special bus concession pass to new shareholders of SBS. Coming from the Ministry of Finance this is a very curious line to take, or proposal to advocate, because one hears quite often from the Ministry of Finance, whenever convenient, that it does not believe in hidden subsidy. Sir, imagine if all bus commuters become shareholders and the concession rate was extended to everyone of them, then it is tantamount to no concession at all because bus fares will be raised so as to enable them to have the concessionary passes. If, on the other hand, only some of them become shareholders and the others do not, then it becomes a subsidisation of those shareholders by the non-shareholding public. In any case, the SBS is a public monopoly and like all public monopolies one has to keep careful tabs on its operational efficiency to ensure that the increases in bus fares do not go to cover inefficiency but are a result of legitimate increases in costs. The distinction between the two is not easy to identify in practice particularly as it is a monopoly. If there was a rival bus company in Singapore one can turn around and say, "If X company can accept 50 cents bus fare, why should Y company ask for 60 cents bus fare?" There is no comparison. Therefore, we have to take the word of the bus management. Undoubtedly, the Government Team of Officials has done well in this respect. But this is something that will need continuous monitoring by the ministries concerned.

Sir, since the Senior Minister of State made reference to the Post Office Savings Bank, may I again make a comment on this subject? Here again, I find a curious anomaly. As the Ministry of Finance does not believe in hidden subsidies, the policy of tax exemption on POSB interest rate is interesting to me. For those in the 50% income tax bracket a 5% tax exempt interest rate means 10% market rate of interest and there is no bank deposit that can earn 10% rate of interest. I think the going rate is about 51/2% to 6%. Therefore, one must ask the question: Has not the operation of the Post Office Savings Bank resulted in a considerable diversion of funds from finance companies and commercial banks into the Post Office Savings Bank? I do recognise, of course, that the attempts and the campaign by the Post Office Savings Bank to attract new depositors, particularly amongst school children, are very commendable and, undoubtedly, there has been some increase in national savings as a result of its efforts. But at the same time, if one looks at the figures very closely, there is a very considerable diversion of funds from the commercial banks and finance companies to the POSB. This then raises the question: what is the hidden cost of this tax exemption? In other words, how much is Government forgoing by way of revenue because of POSB's success in attracting saving funds from the commercial banking system ?

A further important point to raise is in respect of the use of funds. It is no good just simply encouraging people to save money. The money has to be put to good use into investment purposes. The Government itself has already got its revenue. It has access to the funds of the Central Provident Fund and, by law, part of the deposit base of commercial banks and finance companies has to be invested in Government securities, and so on. To add to this, we now have the funds of the Post Office Savings Bank at the disposal of the public sector. The question that suggests itself to my mind is: here we have a diversion of savings from private hands into public hands. Can the public sector usefully, productively and efficiently deploy these savings in terms of investment, in other words, translate these savings into actual investment? Of course, the Senior Minister of State could reply by saying that the POSB can re-lend this money into the money market, as indeed it has. But this is introducing an additional financial intermediary. POSB does not lend money for free. It gains a rate of return in this process. But please do not misunderstand my intention. I support saving efforts in general but if the idea is to promote savings generally, why not grant the tax exemption on all savings deposits irrespective of whether they are in the POSB or in the commercial banking system?

Furthermore, I think there should be a limit on the amount of savings that can enjoy this tax exemption, otherwise we find the rich diverting their funds to POSB and I would suspect, if we look at the figures closely, that there are probably quite a few of them who take advantage of this very high rate of return. As I said, it is at least 10% for those in the 50% income tax bracket and there are not many investments that can yield a 10% rate of return.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I do not intend to be very long in my reply. I think the Member for Whampoa has a mind which is more complex, if not more complicated, than mine. I do not see any difficulties before they come along. For example, as regards SBS, about the problem of bus concession fares and so on, let us wait and see how many bus shareholders there are from the lower income groups. When this becomes a problem, then I think we will find a solution, I do not have to anticipate. The Member for Kim Seng thought that there would be 4,000 shareholders holding $5,000 worth of shares each. If that is the case, there would not be any problem on bus concessions.

As to using the half percent in the CPF, so far as I am concerned, that should still remain untouched. I share the hesitancy of the Member for Kim Seng about the use of CPF funds unnecessarily. It is only for a very good purpose - to spread the shareholding as widely as possible - that we have reluctantly agreed to the use of CPF funds, because I cannot see any other way in which we can make the bus commuter capable of purchasing the shares. This is the only way. If the Member, by using his ability to think out variations and combinations, can suggest to me some other method of raising the funds for the bus commuters to buy the shares, I would be very pleased. If it turns out that they do not have to use CPF funds, so much the better.

As to the question of it being a monopoly and therefore a sign of operational inefficiency, I do not think that necessarily follows. There are certain classic characteristics of the monopoly, but I would say that the Telecommunication Authority of Singapore and the Public Utilities Board are pretty efficient. There are methods of measuring the efficiency of companies like the PUB. There are comparisons with utility companies in other countries. If we can generate electricity and sell it as cheaply as the people who run on private enterprise, like in Hong Kong where there are two utility companies, I would assume that the efficiency has been maintained although we have a monopoly in Singapore.

As to the question of manufacture of sensitive products, I am entirely in agreement with most of the remarks which the Member made. There is absolutely no difference in intention and objective. Whether we will ever get over-production in electronics in Singapore is theoretical. I would be very happy if, in fact, we have developed the electronics industry so that it becomes like the Hong Kong textile industry which produces something like 50% of the industry sector which is 30% of the GNP. If we can develop the electronics industry to such an extent we would be well into a new frontier. I think the Deputy Prime Minister suggested that there are no new frontiers left. But I believe that in the electronics industry there is a new frontier. If we can develop and go into new horizons of electronics, if we go into colour TV tube at present, which is a necessary component in the electronics industry, and if we can go on from there to micro-processors, mini-computers, video tape recorders and the whole series of electronic consumer items as well as the electronic components which go into the consumer items, then I think we will have done very well. I cannot see an over-production in Singapore of electronic components and products at least in the foreseeable future.

I think I can also take up the matter of the Post Office Savings Bank. There have been representations made to the Ministry of Finance from the Chambers of Commerce, and I am a bit surprised to see the Member echoing the sentiments of the Chambers of Commerce in this Chamber. We will look into the question of whether, in fact, the tax exemption is a bit too generous. I think we may have erred on the generous side when we started to make the POSB a more acceptable institution. At one time, they used to say that our Post Office Savings Bank was a dowdy institution. The people there were not courteous and there were no nice ladies to receive the customers like in the private sector. So we went out of our way to reorganise and change the Post Office Savings Bank. I am delighted that now it is in such a position as to cause the private sector some qualms as to whether it is taking away its business. It shows that we have attained a level of efficiency which we would not otherwise have. 7.00 p.m.

I do not think its success is entirely due to tax exemption. I must forestall the Member's objections to this. It is also a question of active, innovative, and new, management and direction. The fact is that we have introduced a lot of new measures. We have introduced computer systems and so on which the private sector has not yet started. I think it is all to the good that we have a Post Office Savings Bank which now gives some competition to the private sector. As to whether we should change the nature of the tax exemption, that is being given some consideration.

The Chairman: I think we have had sufficient debate on this item. Although it is only half an hour to guillotine time, I would rather prefer that we move on.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting:

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code UB-06 of the Main Estimates.

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code UE-04 of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here. Mr Teong, amendment (4).

Mr Teong Eng Siong: ( In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code UE-05 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, over the past ten years through the promotion efforts of Government, Singapore has achieved a great deal in its industrialisation programme. According to statistics available, as at present there are more than 5,800 registered factories or manufacturing establishments in Singapore providing jobs for a few hundred thousand people. The success of our industrialisation programme has turned Singapore from an entrepot port into a productive and viable industrial country. Within such a short space of time we have been able to achieve such great success. This is something of which we can be proud of. But I fail to understand why the industrialisation programme for Sembawang Constituency has been slow. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister for Finance a few questions.

First, what progress has been made on the industrialisation programme for Sembawang? As far as I know, there is a piece of industrial land of about a few hundred acres in Senoko which is desolate and deserted. This state of affairs has been going on for a few years. Although some basic constructions have been completed, including a Senoko power station to provide electricity for industrialisation, this industrial land has not been taken up by anybody. What is the reason for it? Is it because of the difficulty or is there any problem connected with our industrial investment policy, or are we too choosy about the selection of industries? Or are there other reasons? I would like to get an explanation to enlighten the House.

Secondly, I would like to ask the Minister whether consideration can be given to the establishment of a Sembawang Town Corporation which, as in the case of the Jurong Town Corporation, can exert its full strength in the promotion of industrialisation. [Laughter] This is not a joke. This is a serious matter. Like the JTC, it can promote industrial development in the Sembawang area. As far as I know, at the present moment, the promotion of industrial development in Sembawang is being undertaken by the JTC. The JTC itself has got a big load of work in hand. Where can it find time to look after Sembawang? So, the best way is to give serious consideration to the establishment of a Sembawang Town Corporation when it may exercise its full powers to promote industrial development in Sembawang.

Thirdly, I would like to ask the Minister how is he going to raise more than $200 million to finance the various economic development programmes? I hope the Minister can give an assurance to this House that he would not raise the money by way of increased taxes or introducing new taxes, as this would increase the burden of the people.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, on the Member's observation regarding the vast piece of barren land in Senoko. It is not entirely correct to say that there has been no development or factories built in the Senoko industrial estate. So far, seven lessees have been allocated sites in the estate. Two of them have completed construction of their factory buildings and they are in operation. In addition, four factory buildings are nearing completion. Members may be pleased to note that the Jurong Town Corporation has also taken the following steps to expedite the development of the Senoko industrial estate.

First, the investment requirements for the issue of leases will be relaxed. For wood-based and certain local industries requiring less than three acres, the investment requirement is only $100,000 per acre for the issue of a 30-year lease, instead of the requirement of $300,000 per acre for wood-based industries and $450,000 per acre for other industries in other industrial estates.

Second, the scope for siting different types of industries has been extended. A food zone has been included within the estate. Of the seven lessees in the estate, four are food industries.

It is true that progress in this particular industrial estate has been slower than we ourselves would like it to be. But this is due principally to the lower economic growth compared to the days before the 1974-75 recession. The slowdown in the world economy has affected our industrial development as well as the development of Senoko industrial estate.

As to his suggestion for the setting up of Sembawang Town Corporation, so long as the same purpose is being served by the Jurong Town Corporation there is a danger of proliferating similar corporations. The question is whether the needs of the industrial estate or other areas in Sembawang are being adequately met by the Jurong Town Corporation. We should identify the basic cause. It is not necessary to plump for a grandiose solution by setting up another town corporation.

The Member also wanted an assurance that tax should not be increased to finance development expenditure of some $200 million. I do not think any Finance Minister could give such a guarantee. But I can assure the Member for Sembawang that this particular expenditure would not cause a serious drain on Government's resources. The total provision for the items under Public Sector Planning has decreased from $319 million to $197 million. That was the reason which caused the Member for Sembawang some concern. I could perhaps touch on the use of this particular sum.

The Chairman: Mr Goh, I do not think that is necessary because time is moving on.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I am quite satisfied with the answer given by the Senior Minister of State. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of item 8201 of Subhead Code UE-05 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, if I am not mistaken, one of the objectives of the Jurong Town Corporation is to provide recreational facilities in the estate within its jurisdiction. In this connection, I wonder whether the Minister concerned could inform the House of the sum of money that the JTC will set aside for the improvement of recreational facilities in its estate in the coming financial year.

I think Members will agree with me that we Members of Parliament, especially the Backbenchers, are always left in the dark as far as changes of Government policies and measures are concerned. We are no more than the man-in-the-street who is kept informed of any changes by newspapers only. At times when we are approached by our constituents inquiring into the details of such changes, we are rather embarrassed to find that we are as ignorant as they are.

Sir, I do not propose to make a general request here. Let me confine myself just to the JTC. It seems to me that the JTC's housing policy keeps on changing all the time. For instance, at one time non-citizens were allowed to rent JTC flats. But a few years later these poor tenants were forced to leave. Now I read in the newspapers that so long as the tenant is able to pay the rental, he is allowed to occupy a JTC flat, irrespective of whether or not he is a citizen. Sir, I am not arguing about the abrupt change of housing policy on the part of the JTC. What I want to know is whether such changes could be made known to the MPs concerned in advance so that they will be in a better position to advise their constituents accordingly.

Sir, just like any other Government department, the JTC is prompt in collecting payments but late in giving back something to the tenants or lessees. Some of my constituents who have paid up their dues to the JTC in respect of their purchased flat many years ago have not yet received their title deeds. I wonder why. Will the JTC expedite matters and release the title deeds to these flat owners as soon as possible?

7.15 p.m.

Sir, as I have mentioned before, I learned from the newspapers that the JTC flats will be available to non-citizens for rent only. Here I must sound a word of caution to the Minister concerned. Not that I object the JTC from doing so but that the JTC should be told to exercise great care not to group the non-citizen tenants together. Being foreigners, they are not quite conversant with our local regulations on environmental health. If they are scattered, they will be outnumbered by our citizen tenants and there is the general tendency for them to follow the good examples of our citizens. But if they are grouped together, experience shows that they are prone to cause environmental hazards and nuisance to other flat dwellers. I must stress that while the JTC is letting out its flats to non-citizens to generate revenue, the present environment which our citizens hitherto enjoy should not be unduly destroyed.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Jurong has raised four points. The first point is in regard to recreational facilities. In the coming financial year, $120,000 has been allocated to improve recreational facilities in JTC estates. In addition, there is at present a scheme to provide funds at the rate of $1 per flat per year up to a maximum of $10,000 for a constituency for the improvement and maintenance of common areas in the housing estates. Requests from MPs through the Urban and Rural Services Committee will be considered.

On the second point about prior notification of MPs regarding changes in certain policies, I have been told that JTC officers work closely with MPs through the Citizen's Consultative Committees and that there is at present prior consultation in many matters such as in the demarcation of wayang sites, shop obstructions, paying car park schemes for housing estates and so on. This arrangement will continue.

From time to time, meetings have also been held with MPs to consider specific matters. Policy matters affecting hawkers are governed by the unified policy for all hawkers laid down by the Ministry of the Environment.

Sir, the point is taken and the JTC officers would continue to work closely with the MPs and where necessary. If there is no breach of confidential information or if the timing is correct, MPs will be apprised of developments.

The Member for Jurong has also made observations regarding the need to expedite the release of title deeds to the flat owners who have completed payments. The deeds will be released as soon as they have been finalised with the Land Titles Registry. Title deeds for some 2,000 units will be issued within the next three months, with the remainder to be issued within one year. The delay has been noted and JTC has taken steps to expedite the release of these title deeds. Sir, I think the matter should be solved within a year.

I share the Member's concern regarding his cautionary note that non-citizens should not be grouped in housing estates. The policy remains the same, i.e. they would not be grouped together. They would be interspersed with citizen tenants for the reasons advanced by the Member for Jurong. This policy based on distribution on an apartment block basis will continue.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, we heard from the Senior Minister of State that the sum of $120,000 will be set aside by the JTC for improvement of recreational facilities. I am just wondering whether he could give the House more details as to how this sum is going to be utilised.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, the breakdown is as follows:

$100,000 to continue construction of the promenade from the Japanese Garden to Jurong Park;

$20,000 for general improvement to existing facilities such as upgrading of existing playgrounds, play equipment and so on.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Sir, I thank the Senior Minister of State for his most satisfactory reply, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code UF-04 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, the consumer price index for this financial year has increased by 3% over the last financial year. The main reason is the increase in the prices of food and drinks, essentials for living. Retailers, hawkers, shopkeepers and the like have a tendency to arbitrarily increase prices with interest in profiteering and not profit. With the free enterprise system in Singapore which is laudable and one we should not alter as it is the only way we can ensure our economic survival, we must look at ways and means to ensure rational price increases that will not untowardly hurt our economy and at the same time fray the purse strings of our consumers. This methodology must also cater to price reductions when prices of raw materials that go into making the finished product drop.

Price control is therefore not the answer for Singapore. Instead we could evolve a National Prices Council somewhat similar to our National Wages Council. The object of the NPC would be to study representations made by consumers, workers and entrepreneurs, each represented by their organisations or nominated or elected representatives with a neutral chairman and formulate recommendations to Government for price increases or decreases.

The formation of such a council would be part of Government's wider policy for the control of inflation and would also protect those on low incomes or pensions and those with large families, who are least able to fight inflation.

Would the Hon. Minister consider establishing such a Council? How soon can this Council be established?

In addition to that, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I believe that the Director of Consumer Protection who also happens to be the Director of Trade should not wait for the fillip to be given by representatives of the Consumer Co-ordinating Committee before calling meetings of the Committee to deal with matters of product safety. I would also like to know whether a representative from the Industrial Health Department, Ministry of Labour, could sit in the Consumer Protection Co-ordinating Committee, as the IHD can assist with the expertise in the health hazard areas. Could the Committee also be empowered to draft regulations for consumer health and safety among other regulations for inclusion in the Consumer Protection Act?

Could the Committee be given some finances to enable it to proceed with essential product tests?

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, I share the Member's concern on profiteering and its deleterious effects on the welfare of Singapore consumers. I do not feel that the establishment of a Prices Control Council to control prices or to set guidelines for changes in prices of consumer goods and foodstuffs is necessary. The bulk of our consumer goods and foodstuffs has to be imported. The prices must be able to respond quickly to changes in the world market place. The evils of speculative hoarding, artificial shortages and black-market operations will not wait for the Council to ponder over the wisdom of a price change. For most consumer products and commodities, a free market system with minimum intervention achieves optimum results. However, because of our concern for the welfare of consumers for essential commodities, my Ministry coordinates a governmental committee on profiteering and inflation to monitor price trends of essential commodities to help stabilise prices and minimise shortages. The committee has been set up since 1974. So we have the machinery to monitor prices for essential commodities.

By and large, the free market system that encourages imports from the cheapest sources has served us well. My Ministry will continue its efforts to monitor closely the price trends of essential commodities, and I look forward to the continuing active participation of the Member for Potong Pasir in his capacity as Secretary of CASE to help ensure that fair prices are charged to the consumers and end-users.

The Member also suggested that the Chairman of the Committee on product safety should not wait for other members to goad them on. I shall pass on the message to the Chairman accordingly. I see no problem in including a representative from the Industrial Health Department of the Ministry of Labour.

Regarding giving them powers to draft regulations and financing of some of their activities, I would suggest that the Committee sit down and perhaps ponder deeper into their terms of reference. They could get the necessary guidelines from the members on the Committee and submit their recommendations to me and we will consider them.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, I do not want to belabour the point. But I must mention that it is not the national price control body that we want but a National Prices Council which is quite different.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Cheong, you have got three minutes. You take 1 1/2 minutes and give 1 1/2 minutes to the Minister to reply.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Yes, Sir. I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead UH-04 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I would like to seek some clarification from the Hon. Minister on the recent announcement by the Chairman of the Stock Exchange of Singapore (SES) on the proposed reorganisation of the SES. The proposed reorganisation involves the setting up of three separate organisations to handle various aspects of the share broking business. The proposed organisations are the Security Clearing and Computer Services (Private) Limited, the Authorised Depositing Receipt System and the Securities Finance Corporation.

According to the Chairman of the SES, the proposed reorganisation will be of benefit to the investing public. Besides this, it will also create about 500 jobs and employees in member-firms, made redundant as a result of this reorganisation, will be absorbed by the three new organisations. This will further enable the affected employees to acquire new skills and knowledge, Sir. nothing of that sort happened. In fact, six sharebroker firms already resorted to retrenchment of employees as a prelude to the reorganisation. None of them were offered alternative employment. Besides creating job losses, such action taken by the SES and its members could lead to a loss in confidence for investors. In a report in Business Times, the Chairman of SES was quoted as saying that such a scheme could save the Securities Industries from folding up for lack of business. In February last year, the SES introduced option trading in Singapore. This scheme collapsed in less than two months. In making the announcement, the Chairman stated that the proposed reorganisation had the blessings of the relevant authority. Is the Hon. Minister satisfied that the scheme as proposed by the SES is conducive to the promotion of proper business standards and the protection of investors' interests, and whether the proposed reorganisation of the SES has the blessings of the relevant authorities? 7.30 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Guillotine time.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The time allotted for Head U having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with:

Mr P. Govindaswamy: (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code UI-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: (9) That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code UI-05 of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $746,943,060 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $685,940,800 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head V -

Mr Ngeow Pack Hua (Boon Lay): (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1100 of Subhead Code VA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, among the tax increases this year there are two items which relate to the Ministry of Culture, namely, the colour T.V. licence fee and the Entertainment Duty. I rise not to oppose the two tax increases but to say that since we want members of the public to pay more, then they have the right to ask for better services. In this highly commercialised society in Singapore, culture has not been given the due attention and importance. We have been called a cultural desert. With the appointment of the new Minister for Culture, culture has seemed to increase in price. We hope that after the increase in cultural tax, we will have more money to enrich culture.

In Singapore we talk about everything in terms of competition. Our slogan seems to be that only with competition will there be progress. So, we must have two for everything. We have two universities. We want to have two children. But the exception is we have only one television station. Although there are two channels of television, there is only one television station. Because of a lack of competition we have not been able to assess the popularity of the programmes. On this question, we are different from many countries. In other countries the spectators and viewers have an influence over the running of the station. But in Singapore it is the station that determines the programme for the viewers.

Among our population, in terms of income and educational level, one television station is clearly not enough. Almost every family has a television set. In order to provide better programmes we should ideally have one more television station so as to provide competition which will lead to progress. This will also be in keeping with the Government's idea of making more money. If that is not to be considered, then there is a need to consider increasing the number of channels for the present RTS. The present two channels are used to telecast programmes in four languages. This is obviously inadequate. If we want more air time, it will then clash with the working hours of many workers. The only way to enrich the programmes is to increase the number of channels. I can give one example to show that the present two channels are inadequate to cope with four language programmes. The most obvious example is the News Bulletin. Apart from the two news bulletins in English every day, there is only one bulletin each in Chinese, Tamil and Malay. This is not enough. News telecast should be regarded as the most important programme. Of course, we need not adopt the practice of European and American countries with one news bulletin per hour. At least we should have two news bulletins per day, one of which is to include late news. Increasing the number of news bulletins will enable the TV station to give a more detailed news coverage.

The next point is that we have too few live broadcast on sports. For example, football is a very popular game. How is that we are not able to give more live broadcasts of football games? Next, in terms of the dialect programmes, I agree to a more frequent use of Mandarin, English or Malay instead of the vernaculars and that Television Singapore should take the lead in the popularisation of such use. But in regard to those worthwhile popular dialect programmes, it does not mean that we should be so rigid as to sacrifice them. Take Hong Kong's TV dramas, for example. I believe we all admit that Hong Kong programmes are of a good standard and better and more educative than some Taiwan programmes. Compared with them, our local programmes are, of course, way below their standards. Here, we should have some discretion and flexibility. Similarly Radio news broadcast in the dialects should also cater to the needs of the older generation. We should not act too fast or too drastically.

Next, I want to talk about the increase in entertainment duty. According to UNESCO statistics, Singaporeans are the greatest moviegoers. They go to movies 19 times per annum on the average. The increase in entertainment tax may cause an increase in prices of cinema tickets. The Government can do what it likes, but the increased tax should not affect cultural promotion and cultural activities like concerts, dramas, and others. Various MPs have also stressed this point. However, I hope the Minister for Culture will avail of this opportunity to explain to us the basic and concrete plans for the promotion of culture that is healthy and economical.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng is not here. Mr Hwang.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, what is our cultural policy? This is a question that has been asked time and again in this House. I remember, when it was last raised, the Minister informed the House that our cultural policy is to build on what we have. What do we have? And are they all worth preserving and good enough to be built upon? These are questions which need to be answered.

At present our cultural development, as I see it, is being left to run very much on its own. There are numerous different agencies involved in the promotion of cultural activities. Just to mention a few, these are the National Theatre Trust, the People's Association and even the Singapore Tourist Promotion Board. Are their activities consistent? Are they all striving towards the same objective of developing a culture which we can truly call our own? Or are they going in a different direction?

Take the Singapore Tourist Promotion Board, for instance. I think their brand of cultural development is generally described as "Instant Asia". Anything that is described as "instant" always reminds me of instant coffee. It is synthetic. It does not quite taste the real thing. I rather suspect that they promote culture not really for Singaporeans but they promote culture for commercial reasons - to entertain the tourists. Very soon the sort of culture we are going to have may best be described as Chop Suey culture; in the same way when one goes to any Western city, if you look at the Chinese menu in a Chinese restaurant, the first item is invariably Chop Suey. I am afraid that unless we do something about it, very soon we are going to have a Chop Suey culture here.

The Ministry of Culture is supposed to coordinate the activities of cultural developments, or at least one would like to think that they are supposed to be involved in coordinating. But I rather have my doubts as to whether or not there is any coordination at all.

I would therefore like to take this opportunity to suggest the setting up of a Cultural Development Board. Is there any reason why we should not have a Cultural Development Board, in the same way as we have the Economic Development Board, so that our cultural activities can be more properly coordinated and more effectively promoted?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in the past we have seen the National Theatre Trust sending out our integrated cultural troupe abroad to advertise our Singaporean Culture to the world. What has happened to this troupe? Nowadays, we do not seem to hear anything about the promotion of our culture abroad. In this direction, what has Radio and Television Singapore done so far to promote the integration of the four different programmes? Has the RTS thought of producing any programme where the four media can be integrated? So far I have not seen any. What we observe daily is that each medium looks after its own programme and there is no coordination among one another. So much so that even the staff and pan-time artistes attached to the Broadcasting Division do not know each other. This is because each one only cares for himself.

This also happens to our radio and television fans where they only tune in to the programme of their own dialect. In the past we had a Malay programme known as the 'Pesta Pop'. This programme had at least a little bit of integration of the cultures, but nowadays they do not telecast that programme any more. In other words, the RTS has forgotten about the concept of the Singaporean culture.

Since we are also deeply involved with ASEAN, as is evidenced from the press and news bulletins, RTS should therefore have at least a few integrated programmes of the Singaporean Culture and that of the ASEAN cultures. In this way, our ASEAN broadcasting staff and people would know one another better. I hope the Minister will look into this matter.

Sir, since there is a craze for the Malaysia Cup soccer series, Radio Singapore has always been broadcasting a live commentary on the matches whenever our local team is participating. This is done on the English, Chinese, and Malay stations. However, the Tamil Section does not enjoy this privilege although there are hundreds of Indian soccer fans wanting to hear it. I believe the Indian Section cannot provide this live broadcast because the transmission time for this Section ends at 9 p.m. I have in the past brought up the subject of extending the Indian programme transmission time from 9 p.m. to midnight. But I do not understand why it is not possible for RTS to do it. In fact, Indian programme listeners, many of whom are office workers, have made such requests and till today RTS has been turning a deaf ear. Could the Minister look into this matter of extending transmission time for the Indian programme section?

Sir, I have also brought up the subject of delays in the telecast time of the Tamil films on Thursdays and Fridays. It looks as though action has been taken immediately after I raised the matter. However, after some time it is observed that the schedule again runs out by a few minutes. Why is it that only the Tamil film shows on the TV go off the scheduled time by a few minutes? Either the programme time given in the press is wrong or the Broadcasting station itself is at fault. Why is this so? If the Broadcasting station maintains that the telecast times are according to schedule, could it then be due to errors in the press? There was a time when two newspapers gave two different times for a certain programme. What are we going to do with the press and the Broadcasting station to ensure that the correct information is given?

Sir, I notice that whenever Tamil films are screened over Channel 8, the other Channel 5 is quite often scheduled to telecast some popular programmes like Roots or Crown Court. Therefore, Tamil viewers have to sacrifice one of the programmes.

Could a better scheduling of programmes be worked out, not only for the Indian viewers but also for other media, so that there will be no clash of popular programmes over the two channels? 7.45 p.m.

Sir, at the last Budget sitting I brought up the question of the Tamil word for "million". There is a word in Tamil for "million". But I do not understand why they keep on using the English word "million". Why cannot they use the Tamil words latcham and kodi, i.e. a hundred million. RTS and even the newspapers are using the English word "million", Malaysia is using the Tamil word for "million". Why does Singapore not want to use the Tamil word? When I brought this up at the last Budget sitting, most probably the Minister did not know about it. The Minister should check and ask RTS to use the Tamil words latcham and kodi.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, the Member for Boon Lay has made the point that Singapore is a cultural desert. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to just one aspect of the cultural desert in Singapore, namely, the undesirable state of affairs concerning the performing arts, both Asian and Western, in Singapore. There exists presently a laissez faire attitude on the part of the Ministry towards various Government departments, statutory boards and private organisations involved in the promotion of both Asian and Western performing arts.

Take, for example, the field of music. The Ministry of Culture has allowed the proliferation of numerous organisations, all pursuing musical presentations. For example, the Ministry of Culture has the "Music for Everyone" series, the Extra-Curricular Activities Centre of the Ministry of Education has its own programmes, the National Theatre Trust, the National Library, the People's Association, the University of Singapore, the Singapore Polytechnic and also private organisations, including the Singapore Philharmonic Society, the Singapore Musical Society and the Young Musicians Society. With such numerous organisations engaged in the organising and presentation of musical events, there must result in simultaneous performances and unsatisfactory use of limited manpower and financial resources.

I have cited the example prevailing in the community regarding both Asian and Western music, but I am sure that parallel situations exist in the fields of drama and dance as well. Sir, it may be opportune now for the Ministry to provide the lead in stimulating greater interest in the performing arts, both Asian and Western. It may interest Members to know that in a recent survey conducted by a private organisation it was shown that among those who attended the concert, 31% came from the 15 to 25 age group, 32% belong to the 25 to 35 age group, and further it was found that 23% of those who attended the concert resided in HDB or HUDC flats. What this means is that Singaporeans including the younger generation and those residing in flats, are beginning to acquire an interest in serious music. This is a trend which should be supported. The Minister should look into the situation and maybe establish a coordinating body to assist, oversee and even manage the performing arts. The Member for Jalan Kayu has suggested that a board be established with wider functions. If that is possible, so much the better.

I know that the Ministry of Culture is associated with the Singapore Arts Council of which the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour is the President. But I understand it exists merely in name only. The establishment of such a coordinating body would provide an agency which will look into the financial support for these various activities, organisation of arts festivals, coordination of cultural performances and effective utilisation of our limited talents and resources in Singapore.

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Sir, in view of the limited time left for the Minister to answer, I might as well make use of the few minutes left to say a few words.

Sir, television has been in existence in Singapore for more than ten years. In the beginning we were totally dependent on other countries for our television programmes because we did not have the expertise and technical knowhow to produce them ourselves.

The Chairman: Mr Teo, are you speaking principally on Television? If so, there is an amendment on Broadcasting programmes under Subhead Code VD-01.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Yes, Sir.

The Chairman: In fact, you yourself will be moving the amendment.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: If you allow me to proceed, Sir, then I will go ahead. If not, I will speak tomorrow.

The Chairman: You might as well proceed. The Minister can reply tomorrow.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, the hon. Member for Boon Lay had earlier on spoken something on television programmes, and that is why I would like to touch on the same subject.

However, since then we have been making an effort to produce our own programmes and today we are proud to note that some of the programmes featured in our television are our own work. In future, we can expect locally produced programmes to take up more of our television time.

However, we cannot deny the fact that programmes produced by foreign countries, especially English programmes from the United States and Britain and Chinese programmes from Hong Kong and Taiwan, are still the favourites among our television viewers. This is so because programmes produced locally are not up to our expectation. In fact, over the years we hardly see any improvement in the quality of our own programmes. On the other hand, the quality of programmes produced overseas has improved considerably. This state of affairs should not be allowed to continue, otherwise we would have to rely on foreign countries for television programmes indefinitely. There is also a danger involved because programmes produced by western countries may not be very suitable for local viewers. If our youths are exposed to too much of the western programmes, they may tend to imitate western life styles and habits and this is not very good for our society. I am not saying that we should not have western programmes if we are self-sufficient in our own programmes. What I am stressing is that we should have more local programmes because they are more relevant to our local context.

What has been done to upgrade the standard of our programme production? Are we happy with the easy availability of programmes produced overseas and thus not making an effort to improve our own techniques? Judging from our present programmes, a few weaknesses can be identified. Firstly, our present techniques in programme production are mediocre when compared to those of foreign countries. To remedy this, why does the Ministry not consider sending our cameramen, producers, editors, recording engineers and other technical personnel to countries, which are more advanced in such techniques, to learn from them? Secondly, I believe there is a shortage of talented artistes. With a population of more than two million, I am sure we have talented people around. Perhaps the present conditions of work of our artistes are not attractive. Why does the Ministry not take steps to recruit more talented artistes and put them on permanent appointment? The artistes recruited should be sent overseas to learn from their counterparts, if necessary. Another way of overcoming our present weaknesses is to offer incentives to attract foreign experts in the field of programme production. These experts can be contracted to work for us for a few years. Besides helping to improve our techniques in programme production, they can also train our local people who can take over their job eventually.

We should also pay careful attention to the suitability of our programmes. Unsuitable programmes will have an ill-effect on our society. However, before we talk about suitability of programmes, we must be very clear in our minds what are our objectives and what type of a society do we want. At present, I think not enough thought is being given to this aspect of programme production. Consequently, some of our programmes are not very suitable. One classic example is the comic sketches performed by artistes in our army uniforms which featured in the Chinese variety shows. Their performance brought amusement to all television viewers and they should be congratulated for their good work. However, has anyone thought of the impression they give to our viewers as regards our armed forces when they started clowning around? Would not the people go with the idea that the whole army is a bunch of clowns? Surely such performances should depict something more cultural.

It is the aim of our Government to promote the linguistic ability of the people, especially the youths. To achieve this objective, the Government should consider having more programmes in Mandarin rather than Hokkien. Cantonese or Teochew. Besides, all programmes in Mandarin should have Chinese sub-titles. This is useful because people can learn fast if they can read the words and listen to the pronunciation at the same time.

8.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.