MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1978 TO 31ST MARCH, 1979

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [7th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.36 p.m. Head V (cont) -

Resumption of Debate on Question (21st March, 1978),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1100 of Subhead Code VA-01 of the Main Estimates." - [Mr Ngeow Pack Hua].

Question again proposed

The Acting Minister for Culture (Mr Ong Teng Cheong): Mr Speaker, Sir, in response to the various issues raised by Members in this House last night, I would like to approach the problems from the general to specifics today. First of all, the points raised by the Members for Serangoon Gardens and Jalan Kayu. The questions were: what is culture? what is our cultural policy? Sir, I have asked myself these questions before, and since I stepped into the Ministry of Culture I have made use of the library service under the Ministry to ascertain what culture is. To my disappointment or bewilderment, the library gave me some 300 different interpretations as to what culture is. They include interpretations given by our learned Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr S. Rajaratnam, the Senior Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Mr Lee Khoon Choy, including one from President Suharto of Indonesia. To sum it up, UNESCO in one of its studies and documents on cultural policies concluded that there is perhaps no other term with more interpretations than the word "culture". Sir, I have no wish to add another one to the list. The anthropologists and sociologists seem to be experts in this field. They interpret culture to mean the sum total of human achievement and activities and have included within the definition not only the aesthetic such as music, painting, drama, literature and so on, but also political and social realities as well as the material creations of man which mould his thoughts and attitudes. Therefore, the concept of culture embraces all aspects of life. The enormous scope of the subject makes the formulation of culture a very daunting task, daunting because no policy can really satisfy all the elements contained in culture. Yet, a government must have a cultural policy to ensure that the cultural environment is properly nurtured and developed for the health of the whole nation. The formulation of any cultural policy must, of course, take into account the socio-cultural background of the people, in the case of Singaporeans who inherited a very diverse and disparate cultural patterns from their forefathers.

I do not want to bore Members in this House with the historical background and details which have been explained at length in the past. In short or in brief, the adopted process is to try to harmonise the disparate strands of our cultures by breaking down ethnic shells and educate and spur our people to achieve a common and distinct cultural identity of our own. We did this in the early days by diffusing the communal sentiments and chauvinism which existed during the colonial days. Parallel to this, we are creating a favourable environment for the growth and evolution of the different ethnic cultures in Singapore. The best in our cultural background must be emphasised and promoted. From these origins, a local culture will be and is slowly evolving. A Singapore cultural identity is no longer so elusive now. I believe we have made some headway and hope that we will slowly but steadily march towards the full development of a national culture, which is the objective of our cultural policy. But natural evolution is a long and tedious process. Although new cultural forms cannot be laid down precisely in advance, it can be nurtured with the visions of men, with the visions of Singaporeans and with the necessary assistance and encouragement from all quarters, we hope to expedite this process.

I agree with the Member's view that we should not and cannot preserve indiscriminately all traditional forms regardless of their relationship to present realities and needs. As culture is not a mere museum but a living thing which is preserved, what is preserved must be that part of our heritage that gives us identity and yet strengthen us in dealing with the complex process of living in a modern world. Therefore, alongside the preservation of the old must be the evolution of the new. In the process of promoting better understanding of our culture, there is a need to raise the level of cultural appreciation among our people. One way to achieve this is to encourage the people to participate in cultural activities. Towards this direction, my Ministry will try its best within the usual constraints to broaden and strengthen its range of cultural activities which would be made available to all, and not an elite few. Participating in these activities would either be free of charge or with nominal charge to allow ready access. In the long run, however, the people will decide the pace or momentum of our cultural process. In the meantime, the Government will continue to develop both the infrastructure and the climate for fostering the growth of Singapore cultural identity. 2.45 p.m.

I share the views of the Members for Serangoon Gardens and Jalan Kayu that there should be better coordination among Government Ministries, departments and statutory bodies in organising cultural activities. I would like to inform them and the House that my Ministry has recently taken measures to coordinate the various cultural activities so as to avoid the duplication of effort. In the long term it may be desirable to establish a Council or a Board or a Cultural Agency, as proposed by Members, to ensure that cultural activities of the various groups are complementary and not counter productive. This concept is presently being actively considered by my Ministry.

The Member for Boon Lay raised a number of points about our television. We are aware of the need to expand and improve services both in respect of our Radio and Television. We will strive to effect this. There are, however, three major constraints, namely, (1) limited finance, (2) inadequate facilities and (3) shortage of trained professional, technical and supporting staff. Notwithstanding these constraints, which we are trying to overcome, every effort will be made to improve the quality and quantity of programmes, both imported and locally produced.

The Member for Boon Lay expressed the wish to see another television station to be set up in Singapore in order to provide some competition for RTS. His proposition is prompted by his concern for the quality of RTS programmes. His argument is quite valid but given the current constraints I do not see the proposition to be practicable or possible at this stage. There are, of course, other ways of improving the quality of RTS programmes, without having to establish another television station in Singapore.

With regard to his suggestion to increase the number of television channels to cope with the programmes in four languages, it is necessary for me to explain that the current programme output in four languages depends not on the number of channels or the amount of air time available, but on the availability of programmes and materials, both imported and local. RTS sets fairly high standards in selecting and acquiring foreign programmes for screening. Here I also agree with the Member for Changi that not all foreign programmes, especially those produced in the Western countries, are suitable for local viewers. In view of this, RTS has experienced some difficulty in acquiring sufficient suitable programmes to fill the air time. Therefore, there is no plan at the moment to increase the number of channels.

The Member for Boon Lay also likes to see more live telecast on the television. He cited the Malaysia Cup Soccer matches as one of them which was not telecast live. Public events of national importance have always been telecast live, such as the National Day Parade and Lunar New Year Chingay Procession. With regard to sporting events which are of significant public interest, every effort is made to have them telecast live provided the organisers have no objections.

Sometimes the impresario and organisers are reluctant to grant permission for live telecast as it may affect the takings at the box office. Likewise in the case of the Malaysia Cup Soccer matches, the Football Association of Malaysia has given strict instruction that they do not want the matches at the National Stadium to be telecast live for fear of affecting the sales of tickets. I am sure the Member will appreciate that this is sometimes quite beyond the control of RTS. Certain shows which are produced by RTS in their studios, especially productions which involve the element of competition such as the Talentime series and the final programme in the Debate series are telecast live. Any other programmes where the viewers are interested in the results are also transmitted live.

I am pleased to know that the Member for Boon Lay agrees in principle on the need to promote the use of Mandarin. The mass media, the press, television and radio, must play an integral role in reinforcing the use of Mandarin by our young. The mass media, especially television and radio, have the responsibility to ensure that they gear their activities to suit the requirements and goals of the society. Therefore, special attention will have to be given to programmes which exert a strong influence on the formative minds of our younger generation. I agree with the Member that the modern drama films acquired from Hong Kong are generally of a high quality, and that their themes are generally pertinent and wholesome. These programmes will be retained. Meanwhile we are looking into the feasibility of dubbing the programmes into Mandarin.

I also share the Member's concern that there should be adequate provision in the radio broadcast for news and information in dialects to cater to the needs of the older generation. Any modification made in the course will certainly take into account the needs of the older generation to be kept informed of the events taking place in our country and the world at large.

The Member for Anson raised quite a number of points also. I believe the cultural troupe which the Member for Anson referred to is actually the National Dance Company. Since its establishment in 1971 the troupe of the National Dance Company has been sent or invited to perform overseas on numerous occasions. Apart from this, the Company also put up performances locally at important functions, such as the National Cultural Show and also shows for dignitaries visiting Singapore. I would like to first assure the Member for Anson that RTS is fully aware of its role to nurture the growth of Singapore culture. It has and will continue to discharge this responsibility in various ways. He thought it was a pity that we no longer have the programme "Pesta Pop". "Pesta Pop" has just simply changed its name. It is now called "Pusparama". It is the same show. So there is no loss in the television programme.

The Member for Anson also complained about soccer matches not fully broadcast over the radio in Tamil. If soccer matches start on time at 7.30 p.m. there will be no problem. But we have no control of the kick-off time for soccer matches in the Malaysia Cup series. Sometimes they start late and sometimes the times are extended. If the matches begin before 7.30 p.m. then RTS is able to broadcast live commentary in the Tamil service as well as in other languages. But if it is delayed, then what they do is to record the commentaries and broadcast them the following day. If there is a large following in the Tamil service, I do not see why we should not look into this again. I shall ask RTS to look into the possibility of extending the transmission time of the Tamil Service for transmitting special programmes and events, like the Malaysia Cup Soccer series, for the Tamil speaking soccer fans.

The Member also complained about the delay in the telecast time of Tamil films. On the whole, the telecast of Tamil feature films has been punctual. The occasional delay is usually due to the fact that among the programmes preceding Tamil cinema are live news bulletins which are extremely difficult to time precisely before transmission. And also on occasions when there are Parliamentary reports, which are also read out live, the transmission of Tamil cinema films and other non-Tamil programmes which follow might be delayed, varying from the advertised time from two to five minutes. These are sometimes inevitable. Generally the programme times given by RTS are published accurately in the newspapers. Only on rare occasions are changes made on the day of transmission itself. When this happens such changes in the programme time are repeatedly publicised over television.

As regards spacing out the programmes so that Tamil-speaking viewers could watch Tamil cinemas and at the same time do not miss Roots and Six Million Dollar Man or other popular programmes, it is very difficult. It is very difficult to satisfy all the requirements and please everybody. RTS transmits on two channels and in four languages. Somehow someone has to make sacrifices. However, where possible, RTS repeats popular programmes at different times later on so as to make those popular programmes more accessible to our viewers. In the case of Roots, RTS is now negotiating with the distributor of the serial for a repeat showing later this year in a different time slot. 3.00 p.m.

The Member for Changi has a lot of criticisms on RTS. He wants to see the quality of programmes and local productions improved and increase local production programmes. The standard of RTS TV production cannot really be assessed along the same criteria as those produced, say, in the studios of Hollywood. Looking just at the production budget, a one-hour episode of action drama series like the Six Million Dollar Man or musicals like Donny and Marie Show cost these studios in the region of $900,000 whereas our annual budget for local production is $680,000. In other words, our annual budget is only 75% of that required to produce a one-hour Hollywood drama or musical episode. As I mentioned earlier, these are the existing constraints with which RTS operates and these are the constraints that we are now actively trying to overcome.

On the staffing of RTS, training programmes and so on, so far, 10 members of the staff of RTS at the level of executive producers and producers have been sent overseas for training in programme production. Executive producers have on their return conducted training courses for other members of the production staff. There is a great deal our producers and designers can learn from going abroad and studying methods and techniques being used by the more advanced stations. In March 1976, an expert from the BBC was attached to RTS under the Colombo Plan scheme for a period of 18 months to conduct a series of training courses for TV producers, floor managers, script assistants and other staff engaged in production work. The course run by this expert has contributed to the improvement of local productions. But training has to be carried out on a continuous basis. This is only possible if there are, on the establishment, staff specifically recruited to initiate training schemes. It is not feasible to continually rely on the secondment of overseas experts as these experts may not always be available.

The Member is also critical about the comic sketch put up by our Armed Forces in our variety show. I personally do not see much harm done. These comic sketches do not necessarily reflect or adversely affect the quality of our Armed Forces. In fact, it is a good thing to be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes, at our own awkwardness and -absurdities. Some may regard this as a sign of maturity, namely, our ability to poke fun at one another, at the Government and at society generally. His suggestion that all programmes in Mandarin should have Chinese sub-titles is not a bad one but I do not know whether RTS, with the present staffing resources, is able to do this just yet. Anyway, I will convey his request to RTS to look into this possibility.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): ( In Mandarin): Sir, the Member for Changi has suggested that we should increase the number and upgrade the quality of locally produced programmes. The Minister in his explanation said that they have acknowledged that there is such a need but the problem is the question of finance. As far as I understand it, apart from finance, the more basic question is attitude. In scheduling the programmes RTS seems to look down upon the locally produced programmes. Most of the artistes who perform in the programme Musical Showcase are from abroad. Does this mean that we do not have sufficient local artistes to perform in this programme? As a matter of fact, in my opinion, our standard of production and our local talent are not inferior to those from foreign countries. For example, the programme My Home in Toa Payoh is quite popular and well received. In fact, the Malay programme Pusparama is of a very high standard. The standard of this programme is higher than that of Musical Showcase. However, I believe the artistes in this programme Pusparama are mostly local artistes. Why then should we engage foreign artistes from Taiwan to perform in programmes like Musical Showcase? I do not agree that it is only a question of finance. It is basically a question of attitude.

Just now, the Minister said that in our cultural endeavours we do not have a central agency to coordinate all our cultural activities. Therefore, we cannot fully utilise our local talents and after their return to Singapore from overseas they would find that their talents are not being made use of here. They are therefore compelled to go overseas to seek employment. This is also a form of brain drain. I hope the Ministry of Culture would make an in-depth study of this problem and seek a solution to it.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): Sir, I just want to ask the Minister one question. In his reply, the Minister admitted that one TV station operating two channels is not enough and that someone has to make some sacrifice. He also admitted that the setting up of another TV station will provide healthy competition leading to home viewers having more exciting and meaningful programmes. But he also mentioned that due to financial constraints the Government is not prepared at this stage to set up another TV station. Under these circumstances would the Government consider allowing the private sector to run a second TV station?

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Sir, the reply by the Senior Minister of State regarding the Tamil programmes is reasonable. My only complaint is that the time for the telecast of Tamil films is not punctual. If it is published at 10.15 p.m. why is it telecast at 10.20 p.m.? Why must we wait for 5 minutes?

I also wish to inform the Minister that there is discrimination regarding Tamil programmes. The Minister is a very reasonable man and he can check up whether the Broadcasting Department is making a discrimination. Whenever there is a function in my constituency, they never send any TV cameraman. That is discrimination. I do not want any publicity but there should not be any discrimination. There was no TV coverage for Metric exhibition at the Nelson Road Market. The Ministry of Culture only sent a photographer. That is all right. But I do not want discrimination between Indians and other races. Ours is a multi-racial society. The Minister should check this up and tell the Broadcasting Department not to discriminate. If they cannot do the job, they should hand it over to the proper man to do it. That is my request. The Minister's reply is very reasonable but I want to see certain things done in the Broadcasting Department.

Mr Ngeow Pack Hua (Boon Lay): ( In Mandarin): Sir, in his reply to the Member for Changi just now the Senior Minister of State said thai he did not think that the comic sketches performed by the Armed Forces Drama Company would do us any harm. I do not agree with the Senior Minister of State. I wonder whether the Senior Minister of State has seen such farcical dramatic sketches which not only contain vulgar vernacular and play but the contents are also of rather low nature that would cast a slur on the image of our armed forces. There were dirty words and mean action calculated to be offensive to women folk. The less this kind of sketches is shown by RTS, the better.

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): In his reply, the Senior Minister of State mentioned that a distinctive Singaporean cultural identity can only be established through evolution by a gradual process and that this cultural identity cannot be established by a deliberate attempt to dictate what it should be. I agree with him. Nevertheless, it may be useful for the Ministry to consider a publication wherein the Ministry can define and explain in simple terms the salient aspects of our cultural heritage. This will be useful for the information and education of the children and young adults. If this suggestion is taken up, I hope that in this effort the Ministry will deal with the more relevant and serious aspects of our culture and not the frivolous presentations that are contained in the Singapore Tourist Promotion Board's publications.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, to some extent, I agree with the comments of the Member for Jalan Kayu that our local productions are not really that poor. But there is always room for improvement. His criticism on our variety show being over-dependent on foreign artistes is not entirely true. We have local artistes participating in this programme also. We will look into the possibility of reducing the foreign artiste content in this programme in the future. In fact, my Ministry has plans to have another programme consisting mainly of local and young budding artistes, especially those who came into the finals of local song and music contests. This programme will consist wholly of local content and will be available to viewers soon.

3.15 p.m.

The question of constraints is not entirely a financial one. Financial constraint is only part of it. But it is mainly the manpower constraint. It is like starting a new university; you must have the professors and lecturers. It is the same with the RTS. As it is, there is already a shortage of staff, and not all the vacancies are filled. The good personnel are running away. This is a perennial problem which we have to constantly look into. We should perhaps look into the question of revising the scales and rates of pay that we pay to the artistes.

The question of considering the possibility of allowing private TV stations to be established in Singapore does not really arise because no one has yet made that proposal. When the time comes we will consider the matter.

The Member for Boon Lay is entitled to his views. If the matter is serious enough to warrant a check on productions made by the Armed Forces personnel, the best thing to do is to bring this to the attention of the Minister of Defence. Whether RTS should allow this programme to be telecast is a subjective one. So far we have not had many complaints on this. It is purely meant to entertain. As an entertaining programme, it does not necessarily reflect badly on the Armed Forces. Sometimes it is good to be able to laugh at their own absurdities and awkwardness, the problems that they have in the Army. I know the Americans have a television programme called Phil Silvers Show It pokes fun at the Army generals and Army personnel. That does not necessarily reflect the quality of the US Army.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens has made a suggestion on the possibility of puffing up a publication to define and explain the salient features of our cultural heritage. It is perhaps high time too that we took stock of our resources and of our cultural heritage by collating data to establish the yardstick of our cultural evolution up to this stage, so to speak, to see in what direction we are going. I agree that such publications may be useful. I do not know whether at the present moment the Ministry of Culture has the resources to do this or when it will be produced. I cannot promise him at this stage. I will definitely look into the matter.

Mr P. Govindaswamy rose -

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy is not happy!

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have forgotten one point. Regarding the word "million". can the Minister please give instructions to the RTS staff not to use the English word "million" but to use the Tamil word for it? If they do not know the Tamil word for it, they can ask the people from the higher institutions. They can give the actual Tamil word for "million".

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: The Member for Anson did mention about this matter yesterday. I personally do not know Tamil. He said that the correct word in Tamil was Lechum. I will look into this matter.

Mr Ngeow Pack Hue: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (2), Mr Yeo is not here. Encik Sidek bin Saniff.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff (Kolam Ayer): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of item 2510 of Subhead Code VA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Speaker, Sir, when we talk about education, we are in fact dealing with the future. And when we talk about culture, we are in fact dealing with the very foundation of that future. Yet the future is not that simple to ascertain. But we are still very lucky simply because the future has one vital advantage and that is the experiences of the past and the reality of today. From this advantage we can map the future. And the future means constant change. This constant change becomes our constant challenge, whether the change is endogenous, exogenous, episodic or even patterned.

The exogenous change is usually the culmination of the cultural onslaught from outside. It is a threat to the very fabric of one's culture, to our culture for that matter. The progress we have achieved will be jeopardised should the aesthetic value of this important aspect of life be neglected. Without alertness and proper checking the undesirable elements of outside culture will penetrate our society, especially the young, with new undesirable values, which could result in the evolving of a new CCC, only this time it is not the Citizens' Consultative Committee but the Cargo Cult Community, or as a good friend of mine has said, the "Coca Cola Culture".

Mr Speaker, Sir, in this regard I would like to congratulate the Ministry of Culture for having recently decided to contribute $500 to $3,000 from the $10,000 allocation for cultural activities like stage shows or dramas, together with the free use of the venue or theatre to any one organisation during the year. I think this encouraging action has come at the right time. It does not only give new life to stage shows or dramas but also a guarantee of their survival against stiff competition from TV, movies, etc.

In this respect I hope our Minister could consider the following points:

(1) Suggesting to RTS to televise good stage shows or dramas.

(2) Producing, the selected stage shows or dramas with ASEAN producers in order to obtain a greater impact and, at the same time, closing the gap of our cultural heritage between these nations.

At the same time, I hope our society will cooperate by:

(i) Having a critical attitude towards stage shows or dramas so that the quality will improve.

(ii) Patronising it with sincere appreciation, that is, punctuality, clapping if necessary, and remain seated to the end.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to know whether last year's allocation of $7,000 to the ASEAN Permanent Committee, which is not stated in the Budget this year, is due to the nature of the Committee, that is, rotating from one ASEAN country to another or is there any other explanation for this?

Would the Minister also consider putting aside some money to promote an annual ASEAN cultural show? It is hoped that the Minister's reply to these questions could indicate that material success does not mean that Singapore is not concerned about its cultural and aesthetic progress.

The Chairman: Perhaps Mr Teong would like to join in under this particular Subhead. It will save some time.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in this year's Budget a sum of $58,810,000 has been allocated for the Ministry of Culture. This represents an increase of $653,300. Although this increase is not too substantial, it still goes to show that the Government has begun to pay attention to the development of culture and art. This is very encouraging indeed. It should be noted that the Minister concerned and the Parliamentary Secretary have been very energetic and enthusiastic in the promotion of culture and art. Hence, I believe we will achieve better results in this field.

Mr Speaker, Sir, culture and art have a close bearing on our daily life because "man does not live by bread alone." Apart from meeting his material wants, he also needs enriching spiritual life. Only art and culture can fulfil such demands. Although we have not progressed by leaps and bounds in this field, the results achieved so far are quite satisfactory. This is evidenced from the art exhibitions, "Music for Everyone" series and concerts sponsored by the Ministry of Culture. In this year's allocation a large part of the money has been earmarked for the promotion of art and culture. This is a very good measure. Now that we have laid a firmer foundation for our economic and political development it is time that attention was paid to the development of culture and art, particularly in the development of our various traditional cultures and arts which are of many facets and varied hues and colours, pregnant with ethical and moral values. They are of immense benefit to the moulding of our national character. In the past few years we have also been inviting cultural troupes from friendly neighbouring countries to perform here, for example we had the Silver Stars troupe from Hong Kong: recently there was an arts troupe from Pyongyang, and a Canton Youth Acrobatic team from China will be visiting Singapore on 1st April. Their excellent shows will not only delight our people but also provide an opportunity for local artistes to exchange notes and learn from one another. These are some of the contributions made by the Ministry of Culture towards providing healthy entertainment for our people. 3.30 p.m.

In order to better develop our art and culture, I would like to put forward some proposals to the Minister.

(1) Will the Minister consider holding a cultural festival on a mass scale so as to allow our artistes from the various communities to demonstrate their skill, and to learn from one another so as to upgrade their artistic and cultural performances? This will not only enrich our spiritual lives but also give the lie to the myth that Singapore is a cultural desert. Furthermore while we are actively promoting our tourist industry, such a cultural festival will attract many tourists from all over the world to come to Singapore for sight-seeing, thereby giving a boost to our tourist industry which will thus provide more jobs for our people and also enable us to earn more foreign exchange. Undoubtedly, such a cultural festival will enhance our reputation as a cultural centre. According to my understanding, Hong Kong has been quite successful in the holding of art festivals in recent years. I therefore believe that we will be able to hold such cultural festivals well.

(2) In order to promote the development of our art and culture, no effort should be spared to promote the interflow of arts among countries particularly ASEAN countries. In this respect, the Ministry of Culture together with the other ASEAN countries held an "ASEAN Cultural Night", presenting artistes from the ASEAN countries. This is a good beginning in this direction. In order that the cultures and arts from the ASEAN countries can be better appreciated by the various peoples, I feel that we should frequently conduct such cultural activities so that cultures and arts in the ASEAN countries can develop better.

(3) Will consideration be given for an increase in the fees for radio and television plays? I understand that the fee for a radio play is $45 and for a television drama it is $99. The rates of these fees have not been changed for the last three years. I doubt whether our playwrights can live on such a meagre income. Therefore, I hope the Minister will consider raising the fees for playwrights. I understand that the fee for articles in the Chinese newspapers has been increased from $5 to $10 per thousand words.

(4) Will the Minister take effective steps to encourage our cultural and arts workers and writers to bolster their creative endeavours? Recently, the Ministry conducted a playwriting competition. According to my understanding the response was not very good; therefore, this competition has to be postponed again. The result of this competition has not been announced so far. According to some playwrights, the cool response of local playwrights to playwriting was because they were not given the proper encouragement. For example, the winning plays have not been given the opportunity to be produced on the stage. Therefore, the writers have been very disappointed. I feel that the Ministry should set up a special drama section to train our dramatists for those award winning plays so that it may not become a make-shift provision for any worthwhile play depending on temporary actors. As a matter of fact, drama is an important link in the culture of any country. In those countries where the level of culture is very high, drama has always occupied an eminent place, because drama is a synthetic form of an and it is best suited to reflect the social realities and the life of the people. Because of this, I believe the Ministry should lay stress on the development of dramas and other forms of literary creation so that our literature, art and culture may flourish.

(5) I would request the Minister to ban the telecast of Toto advertisements because part of the Ministry of Culture's responsibilities is to inculcate national consciousness among the people and to cultivate them to become responsible citizens. For this reason, I am surprised that the RTS has allowed Toto advertisements to be carried on the radio. I have heard a Toto advertisement saying that if you have spare cash, why not buy a Toto ticket which will bring you good luck. This is ridiculous. If the radio allows such advertisements to continue, it would be tantamount to the Government encouraging the people to gamble. Therefore, I believe that we should immediately ban Toto advertisement so that our people particularly the younger generation may not be subject to bad influence.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Mr Speaker, Sir, first, I will answer some of the points raised by the Member for Kolam Ayer. He questioned about the provision of $7,000 which was provided in last year's budget under the ASEAN Permanent Committee vote, and he wants to know why it no longer appears in the vote in the FY 78 estimates. The explanation is that the seat for the ASEAN Permanent Committee on mass media is located in member countries by rotation in alphabetical order for a period of three ministerial meetings. Since the ministerial meetings are held annually, the seat of the Permanent Committee is held by a member country for three years. Singapore was the location for the Permanent Committee for the period from 1975 to 1978. The last meeting was held in Singapore in January this year following which the Committee, reconstituted as ASEAN Committee on Culture and Information, is expected to move to another ASEAN country. The provision of $7,000 under expenses of ASEAN Permanent Committees was included in the financial year 1977-78 estimates because the seat of ASEAN Permanent Committee on mass media was still in Singapore, and as host we had to meet the organisational expenses of the meetings. With the moving of this seat to another member country, no provision is therefore necessary for the next financial year.

I agree with the Member's view that culture like society is undergoing constant changes all the time. It does not stand still. I also agree with him that there is much to be said for promoting drama. If there are good stage shows for drama which can be adapted for television use, RTS will definitely consider recording and televising them. This together with the Ministry's drama promotion scheme, will, I hope, help to encourage more local drama societies to stage dramas and improve the standard of drama performance.

With regard to the suggestion by the Member to have stage shows jointly produced with other ASEAN producers, this is in fact under the purview of the ASEAN Committee on Culture and Information. The Committee has so far successfully organised two ASEAN All Star Shows featuring top radio and TV artistes of the five ASEAN member countries. The second All Star Show was held in Singapore in October last year and received very good response. However, I would like to assure the Member that it is our policy to promote better understanding and appreciation of the cultural heritage of the other ASEAN member countries. This has been done and will continue to be done through the organisation of a wide range of cultural activities, including exchange of radio and television artistes, exchange of radio and television programmes, ASEAN journals, ASEAN travelling art and photographic exhibitions, etc. We will continue to work in this direction.

The Member for Sembawang likes to see more art festivals. The Member is probably aware that the Ministry of Education and the Young Musicians' Society organised the first Festival of Art last year. The second Festival on a slightly bigger scale is being planned for the latter part of this year. This will be organised by the Ministry of Culture. It is envisaged that apart from the performing arts, the festival will include visual arts as well. The pro-tem organising committee will announce details of the festival when these are finalised. We share his hope and we do really hope to hold such festivals annually or at least once in two years.

The Member for Sembawang wants the Ministry to consider raising the fees paid to writers of radio and TV drama serials. Fees paid to pan-time musicians have already been revised and approved. The Department of Broadcasting is at present in the process of working out revised rates of fees for various types of services rendered by the various groups including scriptwriters and so on. We have to work out a reasonable increase to the fees paid to the scriptwriters, actors, actresses, dancers, singers, comperes and all the other categories of talent. This will apply to both television and radio. Subject to the approval of the Ministry of Finance, the intention is to increase these fees hopefully by at least 35%. 3.45 p.m.

The Member asked about plans to encourage the production of local literary works, especially drama. I have already replied to that in my answer to the question raised by the Member for Kolam Ayer. Regarding other types of literary works, since 1976 we have been organising creative writing competitions designed to promote literary activities. Three such competitions have been organised so far, namely, a Short Story Writing Competition, a Poetry Writing Competition and a Playwriting Competition. We will continue with our efforts to nurture and develop local literary talents and we plan to publish the winning entries of the literary competitions and stage the outstanding play. All these are incentives for more people to take up literary and dramatic pursuits. The response to the three competitions organised by my Ministry, quite contrary to what he claimed, has been encouraging. There were 305 entries in the Short Story Competition, 1,827 entries in the Poetry Writing Competition and 173 entries in the Playwriting Competition. My Ministry is presently looking into the possibility of holding workshops, forums and other allied programmes to encourage a greater interest in literary activities. My Ministry's role is to provide a congenial environment to nurture such interests. It is up to the people, particularly the young, to make the most of these opportunities.

In answer to the questions raised by Members on Toto advertisements on radio and television, RTS only refuses advertisements which are morally objectionable, in bad taste or otherwise undesirable, or contain misrepresentations or misleading claims. The Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd. is a wholly Government-owned organisation, whose profits go to worthwhile causes and hence there is no reason to refuse its advertisement or to deny publicity to the organisation. The question of the nature of Toto and desirability of Toto has actually been thrashed out at great length during the 1968 debate in which the Member for Sembawang had participated very actively. I do not intend to go through this again, but only to say that the idea of introducing Toto is not only to generate part of the proceeds to worthy causes, which otherwise would have gone to line the pockets of illegal operators but also to control illegal gambling. Part of the reason for the introduction of Toto is therefore a very cogent one of trying to control illegal gambling.

The Member for Chua Chu Kang, who is also the Deputy Speaker of the House now, and who was then the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, quoted the United Kingdom report of the Royal Commission on Gambling of 1961, and I quote:

"So long as these gambling facilities are in private hands, it would be impossible entirely to prevent fraud, exploitation and inducement to gambling." The reason to telecast Toto on television live is exactly to prevent fraud and exploitation.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I do not agree to some of the replies of the Acting Minister for Culture. He said the fees for television and radio dramas and plays have been increased in the last few years. In fact, the fees have not been increased for the last three years. If he said the Ministry is going to increase the fees, I welcome such suggestion. But the situation has not improved yet. So far he has not got the money from the Ministry of Finance. I welcome his intention to increase the fees for the playwrights to improve the situation. He also said that the responses to the various competitions were good and he quoted two examples. However, the entries to the drama writing competition numbered only some 70-odd. Some 170 took part in the novel and poetry writing competitions. Therefore, more encouragement should be given to the people to take part in such contests.

With regard to Toto advertisements, I do agree with what the Minister said. He also quoted my views expressed in the 1968 debate when I opposed Toto; and I have not changed my stand since then. If the Minister wants to defend Toto advertisement, it may not become of him, because he will be encouraging the people to gamble. The purpose of Toto advertising is to sell more Toto tickets. In order to boost the sale of Toto tickets, therefore, the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd. has been allowed to resort to advertisements over radio and television. In fact, the sale of Toto can be promoted through other channels and it is therefore not necessary to advertise through the television and radio.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I have given a very detailed explanation as to the objective of Toto and I do not intend to prolong this debate to explain whether the objective of Toto is correct or otherwise. I have explained that the proceeds of Toto are distributed mainly to charitable organisations which promote healthy activities for our young people and for other commendable activities or purposes.

With regard to playwriting contest, not poetry writing contest, there were 173 entries. This figure was not bad.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff: Sir, in view of the satisfactory reply from the Acting Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code VC-03 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, we heard just now from the Minister concerned that his Ministry is sparing no effort in promoting cultural activities in our island-state. This is commendable. In line with this policy of promoting arts, the charges levied for rental of various exhibition halls should not be too exorbitant. I am given to understand that the rental for the use of the Victoria Memorial Hall is $400 for the first eight hours and $50 per hour thereafter. If one were to hold a three-day exhibition, one would have to pay more than $1,200 on rental alone. This high charge will, I believe, deter many promising artists from holding a solo exhibition. I wonder whether the Minister concerned will consider lowering the rental charges of the exhibition hall under the jurisdiction of his Ministry.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, the Victoria Theatre and Memorial Hall presently charges two rates for rental, the commercial rate of $400 and a non-commercial rate of $200 per hiring of up to eight hours. The rates include, where applicable, the cost of electricity, water, air-conditioning and a cloak room attendant. The present rates have been computed to enable the Hall to just break even on its operating expenses. In fact, it has not been quite so. In the period 1974 to 1976, the expenditure has exceeded revenue, in effect constituting a subsidy to the users of the Hall. The overall deficits arise mainly from the low rates granted to non-commercial organisations making use of the Hall for cultural and artistic purposes. The non-commercial rate of $200 is not really that high. I know of some community centres that let out their hall at a rate of over $100 on a per day basis. 4.00 p.m.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Sir, can the Minister inform the House what is the difference between the commercial and non-commercial rates? Where is the line drawn between the two?

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: The commercial rate is applicable to exhibitions or fun fairs where sale is involved. The non-commercial rate is applied where no sale is involved. This is the line drawn between the two.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: Sir, everybody knows that the promotion of culture is a subsidising enterprise. Though there is no immediate effect from the amount of money invested in it now, in the foreseeable future, it will affect the lifestyles of our people implicitly and profoundly. I hope the Ministry of Culture will not attempt to generate revenue out of the rentals of the exhibition hall. With this note, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code VC-02 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, everybody knows that community centres play a very important role not only in the welfare of the constituents but also, on a nation-wide basis, in helping to promote mass participation in cultural, social and other community activities. In this respect, I would like to pose some questions to the Minister in charge drawing his attention to the working conditions of the staff in the People's Association. I am given to understand that there was some difficulty in the recruitment of staff. This could be due to poor salary and long working hours. It could also be due to the nature of the job which demands much of their time on the ground organising activities. We have to bear in mind that the community centre staff, though trained, sometimes come across problems. It is an unrewarding job, so to speak. In this respect, would the Hon. Minister in charge kindly consider my request for a thorough review of the entire salary structure of the staff of the People's Association, from the highest post to the lowest, i.e. the caretaker?

The other point I wish to make is the question of subsidy to the community centres. We all know that community centres have management committees. They are supposed to manage the community centres and organise various types of activities and even fund them. But the People's Association contributes only a paltry sum as subsidy. This subsidy is enough perhaps to pay PUB bills. In my constituency there are five community centres and this subsidy which has not been revised for a long time is hardly sufficient. The management committees have time and again got to raise funds by organising activities. This matter of soliciting funds from the people every now and then should not be encouraged. Would the Minister in charge therefore kindly look into the question of increasing the subsidy, thereby lessening the dependence on the management committee to raise funds from time to time? On the other hand, of course, the management committee has to spend a lot of money to organise such fund-raising activities.

I recall the Senior Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, who is in charge of the People's Association, making an announcement in the press encouraging the setting up of a central development community centre fund, or something like that. I am not too sure of its name. But I think this is a good idea. Therefore, I would be grateful if he could enlighten the House as to the progress of his suggestion.

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Sir, I rise to make some comments on the People's Association and to pose two questions.

In the Addendum to the President's Address last year the role of the People's Association was defined as having a very definite role in nation-building, and a move was made to encourage more people to involve themselves in matters of public interest and national development projects. It also pledged that programmes in the community centres would be geared to promote a greater social cohesiveness and neighbourliness, and this is particularly so when at the present moment more than 50% of Singapore's population are housed in Housing Board estates. More members of the public would be encouraged to participate in community work and there was also a pledge that new and better equipped community centres would be built to cater for the changing needs of the population.

I am therefore very happy to note that in the Development Estimates for 1978 the vote for the People's Association has increased from $2.1 million to $5.7 million. This means that there is, in fact, an increase of $3.6 million. I think this is rightly so, particularly when we are now undertaking major and necessary changes in the People's Association and the well deserved phased developments of community centres throughout Singapore, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the People's Association on its renewed momentum, and of late it appears that proper directions are being given to its staff and to the volunteer workers.

In the redevelopment of community centres we have been given a list of new centres to be developed over the coming years. We are supposed to see about a dozen new centres being built this year, a lesser figure next year and a smaller figure for the year following. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the People's Association and the Government for increasing its subsidy from the small figure of $150,000 to a block grant of $350,000 for key centres. For that figure, we need the local leaders to raise $100,000 and thereafter dollar-for-dollar contributions up to a maximum of another $200,000. I think this plan is very good for while it provides a reasonable sum of money it also makes it compulsory that the local leaders and workers and those who use the centres would contribute their share and have a sense of attachment, belonging and pride in the centres that are built. If anybody so desires to have a better-than-the-ordinary centres, they have to work for it and they deserve it. It is my experience that under this new scheme I come to realise for the first time those people who actually work and those who turn up only when their Member of Parliament is around.

Sir, there is a need to build new centres because the old ones are cracking. Further, there is also this necessity to provide new facilities and better playgrounds, working conditions, rest area and so forth for the community. We are all trying to put in as many facilities as possible to cater to the needs of new circumstances.

However, I would say here that it is very important for the People's Association to bear in mind the fact that not all the constituencies and estates are identical. We have differing needs. The constituents in better-off areas, say, Cairnhill or Tanglin, would have a different kind of requirement as would those in, say, Geylang Serai, Kim Seng or Bukit Ho Swee. Therefore, the People's Association or, for that matter, the Ministry of Finance, must not stick to the stipulation that every community centre should have one billiard room, one squash court and one tennis court. My constituents may choose to have two basketball courts as they may not like to play billiard. They prefer to play volley ball. The People's Association should not insist that only if we opt for a billiard room, will we get the necessary subsidy. I think this is a point which I would like to bring across; because I face that problem. Before more people come across this problem, we should think about it so that there will not be any unnecessary contention later on.

4.15 p.m.

The second point is with regard to land. We are told that the maximum area for a community centre is 36,000 sq. ft. That is about four-fifths of an acre. I would imagine that for large active centres the Minister should think of providing more land. An area of 36,000 sq. ft. is quite small if we think in terms of building a new community centre. Once we have a basketball court, that does not leave us with very much space for other activities which may, in fact, be necessary. This is particularly true in the case of old HDB estates where there is already so much congestion. These HDB flats are so close to one another that there is hardly any land for recreation. There is also no greenery. We have raised this point the other day when we touched on the Housing and Development Board. Some promises have been made and I am waiting to see some changes in the old estates. Community centres are perhaps the only place in an estate where people can congregate under a more congenial environment, where they can meet and have a close inter-relationship with one another. This is a point which I hope the People's Association would impress upon the Ministries concerned. I believe that the Ministry of Finance is again the stumbling block. But I certainly hope that the Minister concerned would do his level best. I have now mentioned the points which I wish to raise, and I wish to thank you, Sir, for the time given to me.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I clarify one point? Regarding the Silat Community Centre, I do not want to say anything before any renovation has been made. I am waiting for it. The Silat Community Centre is like a cowshed and white ants were found there. There is a provision of $15,000 to renovate it. Even then public funds will be needed for the renovation. Recently we collected some money for the Anson Community Centre. How can we ask for more funds from the people who had already made their contributions? The Silat Community Centre is situated nearby. The management committee cannot raise money. If any renovation is to be done, it must be done properly. We do not want to find any more white ants there. Therefore, to do a proper renovation, an allocation of $15,000 is not enough. The People's Association or any other responsible authority should look into the situation in this community centre. Perhaps the URA might want to acquire the place later on. I do not know. But the surrounding buildings will soon be demolished. I do not know whether the place will remain as it is. It will be better if it can remain in the same place after renovation. Otherwise we should get another place and erect a new community centre there. The area there is very large. I hope the Minister will look into this matter. Some alterations will have to be made to the building, otherwise the building will collapse and nobody will be able to use that place.

The Senior Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr Lee Khoon Choy): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am very glad to see that there is at least some appreciation from Members of Parliament on the difficult working conditions of the staff in the People's Association. In fact, working in the People's Association is quite a difficult task because apart from the low salary as compared to other organisations and statutory boards, the staff have to work for long hours. Sometimes they also have to please many masters. Theirs is a very difficult job. We have, in fact, spent some time trying to work out a new salary structure for our staff. We have submitted our proposals to the Treasury. Unfortunately, we have not received a favourable reply. But I am sure that ultimately reason will prevail.

Regarding subsidies, I wish to point out that the Government's grant to the People's Association has been increasing since 1960. In 1960 it was $0,72 million. In 1978 it has gone up to $14.1 million. Members will appreciate that apart from increases in the grant, the Government has to consider also the rising expectations of our populace on the need for new types of community centres. Of course, not all of them will be as expensive as the Havelock Community Centre which cost more than $1.6 million. As the Member for Kim Seng has said, we have increased the amount from $150,000 to $350,000. We can expect the centre to cost at least half a million dollars, that is, from $600,000 to $700,000. We have estimated that, in the next five years, the Government will have to build 73 key centres costing something like $14 million. We have to appreciate the burden on the Government in respect of the capital expenditure.

As regards the members of management committees, the Member for Kim Seng has already mentioned that each member has to contribute his share as a community leader. They are appointed not only to sit on the committee but also to have the responsibility of collecting funds. We appreciate very much the efforts which they have made before, and I am quite sure they will have a lot to do in Punggol where a new community centre will be built. In Kim Seng Constituency too we have to look for $100,000. The management committees will be kept very busy. It is necessary for the management committees and also the participants of the centres to adopt a new attitude. They should not be spoon-fed. In the past we used to give honorarium to instructors in basketball. We did not know whether or not anybody ever wanted to learn basketball. Yet we still paid the basketball instructors. I have since stopped this practice. I think it is necessary for the people themselves to take part in the activities of the centres. If they want cooking classes, sewing classes or play basketball, they should pay out of their own pocket to get the instructors. They should not expect the Government to pay for them. We will still pay for certain basic items, but for other things there must be gotong royong, that is, a spirit of mutual help in the centre. We do have staff on the pay of the Government. But it is also up to the people to make good use of the centre and to make it a lively one.

As regards the Central Community Development Fund, the Board has approved the setting up of such a fund in principle. We are in the process of trying to get tax exemption. I must point out that the purpose of the fund is not to help Members to get the $100,000. This fund is meant for certain activities. For instance, the management committee may like to organise some music classes but they do not have the funds. It is difficult to get funds in some areas. They can therefore apply for money from this fund. Of course, there will be a committee to decide on how to distribute the money from the fund. But we expect contributions to the fund to come from the big business tycoons and big companies. We will not compete with Members in their fund raising efforts.

Coming back to the Member for Kim Seng, first of all, I would like to thank him for the compliments he has paid to the People's Association. I appreciate why he has raised the question of the inadequacy of land for the building of community centres. It is true that we have suggested to the Treasury that an area of 3,396.84 sq. metres, that is 36,553 sq. ft., is hardly enough for a good key centre. We have suggested one acre, i.e. about more than 4,000 sq. metres. Approval has not yet been given but we will carry on with our request and try to reason out the necessity for a bigger space. In fact, we have received approval of 371 sq. metres for the provision of additional facilities. The building provision is $250,000. Therefore, $250,000 will be almost completely used up to develop the 371 sq. metres of land. But we have reason to believe that on the basis of a dollar-for-dollar contribution, and with a maximum of $200,000, we could raise $400,000. If we have $400,000, 371 sq. metres is hardly enough for the development of centre activities. We have therefore asked for 671 sq. metres for additional facilities. We will continue to press for it.

The Member for Kim Seng will be glad to know this as it concerns his constituency. I appreciate that he has only one community centre in Kim Seng constituency. It is more than 2,000 sq. metres. But a new centre will be built. I have just got news that the HDB has set aside an extra 1,600 sq. metres adjacent to that centre. He will therefore have more than 4,000 sq. metres to build his centre.

As regards flexibility in using the facilities, I agree with him that we should not be too rigid in our policy, but we have to bring up this point again. For instance, we cannot say, "you can have a billiard table. If you do not want a billiard table, you cannot have the money for other purposes." There should be more flexibility. I hope that reason will prevail.

The Member for Anson has referred to the Silat Community Centre. I am afraid I do not have the exact information on this matter. But I will look into it and try to meet his requirements.

Mr Ng Kah Ting rose -

The Chairman: There is just one minute, Mr Ng.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, since the Minister for Finance is now here, he might have missed some of the points raised, especially the working conditions and the poor salary in the People's Association. I would like to join the Senior Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, who is in charge of the People's Association, in impressing upon the Minister for Finance the need to revise the salary structure of the staff in the People's Association so that they would be able to recruit more staff to work in the People's Association which is for the people. On that point I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. 4.30 p.m. The time allotted for Head V having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with:-

Mr Ivan Baptist: (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code VD-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code VD-02 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Tan Soo Khoon: (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code VD-02 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (9) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code VE-01 of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $49,827,160 for Head V ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $8,983,000 for Head V ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I propose to take the Suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and shall take the Chair again at 5.00 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.30 p.m until 5.00 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.00 p.m

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head W -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, since I am the first speaker under this Head, I hope you will not stop me if I take one or two minutes more to finish my speech.

The Chairman: Whether you are the first speaker or the last speaker, you have only 10 minutes to speak on your amendment.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1100 of Subhead code WA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, religious matters come under the purview of the Minister for Social Affairs. In this connection, I would like the Minister to consider integrating the Hindu Advisory Board and the Hindu Endowments Board into a single body, possibly to be known as the Hindu Religious council. This will result in better administration of Hindu religious matters. This Hindu Religious Council should be given the supreme authority to deal with all the official Hindu religious matters that are looked after by the two Boards. Many Hindus and I also feel that it is timely to have a single authority to look after Hindu religious matters than to have two different bodies.

Sir, we know that our Muslim brothers have successfully got Government's approval to deduct compulsorily a nominal sum of 50 cents in the past and $1.00 currently from each Muslim worker's salary through the Central Provident Fund to build mosques in the various housing estates. This is indeed an excellent idea of the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura. Otherwise the Muslims would have a problem in raising funds to build mosques in the new housing estates.

The Hindus too have a problem in raising funds to build temples. I would therefore request that a similar arrangement be considered so that Hindu workers could contribute a nominal sum through deductions from their salaries to be made to the CPF for the purpose of building Hindu temples in new housing estates. This proposal has the support of many Hindu devotees which is evident both in the letters to the press and also at Hindu religious meetings.

Sir, the Minister might say that unlike the Muslims who pray in a mosque, it may not be possible to have the same arrangement for the Hindus because they worship a number of deities. Anyway all worship is towards one Almighty God. The problem of which Deity to worship could be easily solved by the proposed Hindu Religious Council after consultation with the residents of the housing estates.

Sir, I would urge the Minister to recommend to the Authority concerned to relax certain conditions like a time limit for building progress and also payments to be made in the construction of temples, mosques and churches. Religious authorities which are mostly run by volunteer workers depend on donations for funds, and they find these conditions too stiff to follow when they erect a place of worship.

Sir, I would also request the Minister to look into the question of recommending Thaipusam as a public holiday for everyone. It appears that the traditional activity of carrying kavadis by Hindu devotees has been increasing year by year. Practically every Hindu is involved in some way or other in the carrying of kavadis. Last year, there were 970 kavadis. This year there were 2,000 kavadis. As the population increases, the number of kavadis is also increasing.

Currently, Thaipusam has been gazetted as a public holiday for daily rated workers but not for the monthly rated staff who enjoy a public holiday on Good Friday. As a result, the majority of the monthly rated Hindus have to take vacation leave on this day to attend this traditional annual affair.

In some departments where there are daily rated staff and monthly rated staff, I understand the monthly rated staff who are supposed to be free on that day, even though they have nothing to do with Thaipusam, are in a way indirectly forced by their bosses to take leave on that day and the reverse situation is the case with Good Friday. Could the Minister use his good offices to see that Thaipusam is declared a public holiday for both the daily rated and monthly rated staff? I do not want to see any discrimination. The Christians have two public holidays; the Chinese have two public holidays; the Muslims have two public holidays. The Hindus have only one public holiday. Why is there discrimination? All the races should be treated equally. Even if the Indians are a minority group, they are still citizens of Singapore. I hope the Minister will strongly recommend to the Labour Ministry to declare Thaipusam a public holiday. There is a long history about this. The people ask: "What is Mr Govindaswamy doing? He has not taken up this matter with the Ministry or in Parliament." This is the reason why I am bringing up this matter in Parliament.

Sir, turning to the subject of Fire Brigade, I note that this year's allocation for the Fire Brigade has been greatly reduced, because the Brigade claims that it has purchased all the modern fire-fighting equipment and appliances to enhance the Brigade's operational efficiency. But then looking at the statistics on the incidence of fires on residential promises, they seem to be alarming. In 1975 there were 428 cases; in 1976 it was 179 and in 1977 it went up to 597. This is an average of one or two fires per day. Even fires in industrial premises have increased over the last two years. In 1976 there were 67 cases and in 1977 the figure went up to 107. Estimated loss of properties amounted to $15,139,138 in 1975; $19,303,094 in 1976 and $18,889,813 in 1977. On scrutinising the statistics, it is evident that millions of dollars went up in flames during the past few years because of a slip somewhere. And even over the last few weeks there were many fires with loss of properties amounting to thousands of dollars. It is becoming a daily affair. Perhaps a fire prevention campaign has to be introduced to remind the people of the precautions to be taken against the hazards of fires.

May I also know what sort of training both local and abroad is being given to our fire officers to improve their efficiency in combating fire in high-rise buildings, and what sort of sophisticated equipment has the Brigade in stock?

Sir, we take pride in our Singapore Sports Council under the able leadership of the Senior MiniSter of State for National Development for its wonderful efforts tO attract our people, especially the youths, tO participate in the various popular sports that are being organised at the Inter-Constituency and Intra-Zone levels. In a way, this has helped to a certain extent to involve many of our youths who would otherwise have been involved in some undesirable activities like drug taking which is now a problem faced by many countries throughout the world. We must definitely pay tribute to the officials of the SSC and the People's Association for their active part in getting our youngsters to be involved in healthy activities.

Sir, the National Stadium, the so-called white elephant of the past, is no more a white elephant. In fact, the elephant is trumpeting, to the extent that the stadium is not big enough for our local soccer fans.

In the past few years and even now, every Malaysia Cup soccer tie that is played at our Stadium, the tickets are sold out within hours and many fans are disappointed. Even ugly scenes have happened, to the extent that one soccer fan fell dead whilst trying to buy tickets. It seems the stadium is still not big enough for our local soccer fans. Could the Minister look into the possibility of extending the stadium on a temporary or permanent basis so that our people could have a chance to watch popular events that are being held at the stadium? I am sure the stadium with its collections and income over the years have enough funds to consider extending it.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon and Dr Ong Leong Boon are not here. Mr Ng.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, since the management of creches comes under the purview of the Minister for Social Affairs, may I be permitted to say something on this?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, there is a creche called Lee Kuo Chuan Creche which is not in Kuo Chuan Constituency as the name implies but it is actually in Mountbatten Constituency. This creche was built in the early 1960s at the present site which is unfortunately in a remote corner of my constituency and is some distance away from my constituency's housing estate. In this regard, I have some queries for the acting Minister.

(1) Has this creche been fully utilised by working mothers?

(2) Is there any plan to relocate this creche within the housing estate in my constituency?

(3) Can the name of this creche be changed to Mountbatten Creche instead of Lee Kuo Chuan Creche?

(4) Is the NTUC taking over the creche and, if so, when will it be?

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, since the subject of the Fire Brigade has been touched upon by the Member for Anson, may I be allowed to speak on the same subject?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I am glad to know that Singapore has a medical service second to none in this part of the world. We have adequate Government hospitals equipped with modern medical facilities situated in various parts of the island. Although we have lost some of our experienced doctors, nevertheless we are able to find adequate staff to maintain our present standard of services in our hospitals.

However, one cannot help but question the standard of our ambulance service. Recently, a man-in-the-street publicly criticised our ambulance attendants for not having the basic knowledge of first-aid required of them to deal with certain medical cases. This is far from satisfactory as the lives of patients are in their hands. It is surprising to learn of this despite assurance by the relevant authority that all ambulance attendants possess Certificates of First Aid and besides they are sent for practical training at Government hospitals. One may wonder whether in actual fact these attendants are sent for the relevant courses and practical training as claimed. If they are, then it could be that the present training, both theory and practical are inadequate. Thus it is high time the relevant authority made an effort to improve the situation. 5.15 p.m.

Another problem I would like to bring up is the inadequacy of our present system of deploying ambulance. At present ambulances are stationed in Fire Brigade stations to cater for emergency cases. This system is good if the Fire Brigade stations are spread evenly throughout the island. However, this is not the case and therefore in certain cases it takes a long time for the ambulance to reach the patient. This situation cannot be tolerated because time is critical for all emergency cases. It is ironical to note that an ambulance took from 20 minutes to half an hour or even more to arrive at the point of call but it took only less than 10 minutes to transport the patient to the hospital. Taking into consideration our congested roads, it is desirable to conduct a careful study of the deployment of ambulance in the various districts of Singapore. Emphasis should be placed on prompt arrival of ambulance at places where they are required. Perhaps some ambulances could be stationed in police stations or at places where there is no Fire Brigade nearby. This I believe can improve the situation considerably.

Another point to note is how well is the ambulance equipped to deal with emergency cases. We may have competent ambulance attendants and efficient ambulance service, but all these will not be very helpful if the ambulance is not equipped with modern medical facilities to attend to patients in a critical condition. I wonder whether a study has been carried out to determine the basic equipment required in an ambulance to deal with the more common medical cases, for example, heart attack which is still the No. 1 Killer in Singapore.

The Acting Minister for Social Affairs (Dr Ahmad Mattar): Mr Speaker, Sir, allow me to deal with the queries raised by the Member for Anson. He has raised a total of five queries, the first being the proposal to form the Hindu Religious Council. The Member has proposed the integration of the Hindu Advisory Board and the Hindu Endowments Board into a single council to be called the Hindu Religious Council which is to be vested with the supreme authority to deal with all Hindu religious matters presently under the purview of the two boards.

For the information of the House, the Hindu Advisory Board is an administrative body set up to advise the Government on affairs relating to the Hindu religion and customs. The Hindu Endowments Board, on the other hand, was set up in 1968 as a body corporate under the Hindu Endowments Act, to administer funds given for Hindu religious activities.

The proposal to amalgamate the two Hindu boards was first mooted, I think the Member for Anson can still recall, by the Hindu Advisory Board on 21st March, 1975, when it proposed the setting up of a Singapore Hindu Board. My Ministry studied this proposal at great length and decided that the setting up of such a Board as a statutory body to look after Hindu affairs was not feasible. The Member for Anson was quite right when he said, and I quote, "The Minister might reply that unlike the Muslims who adore a single type of god, it may not be possible for Hindus because the Hindus worship different gods." I think the Member for Anson has just supplied the answer for me to reply to him.

Sir, unlike Islam, Hinduism is not homogenous in theology nor in the system of rituals of worship. I have been told by my Hindu friends, and these are very pious and holy friends, that there is no specific Hindu law which governs the conduct of its adherents so intimately in their everyday lives as Islamic law does in the conduct of Muslims. It has a plethora of various gods and accordingly a large number of different sects. Hence the proposal to set up a single Council for Hindus does not stand. In fact, the setting up of a special body for Hindus will, I think, create more problems than solve them. This is because Hindus, as mentioned previously, are divided into many sects. It is, therefore, inevitable that some sects will feel aggrieved if they are not represented on such a body. It is likely that as appointments will be made, not by election and at the most by nomination, there will again be dissatisfaction and agitation for an elected Council. The effectiveness of such a body in the administration of such a fractious group will be poor and this alone will be reason enough for advising against its formation.

Nonetheless, Sir, as an alternative measure, my Ministry is proposing the setting up of a management committee comprising members from the two Hindu Boards to deal with the problem of clearance of Hindu temples and shrines and to plan and to coordinate the building of replacement temples in satellite towns. For the information of the House, such an administrative committee, known as the Joint Management Committee, comprising representatives from the two Hindu Boards, was set up in April last year. The Chairman of this Joint Management Committee is none other than my good friend, the hon. Member for Anson. I think it is too early in the year to pass judg- ment on this Joint Management Committee. According to feedbacks I have received, the Committee is functioning superbly under the able and revered guidance of the Member for Anson.

As regards the setting up of a Hindu Temple Building Fund by way of compulsory deduction from salaries of Hindu workers via the CPF Board, I think it is a matter which the Ministry of Labour has to decide. But I can assure the Member for Anson that I will take it up with my colleague, the Hon. Minister for Labour. In the meantime, my Ministry has asked the two Hindu Boards for an account of any preliminary work, e.g. the blueprint of the proposal indicating the location of the temples, the size of the temples, estimates of cost, and so on. Such information will certainly be useful to the Minister for Labour.

The third point he raised was whether the Government would declare Thaipusam a public holiday. The Hindu Advisory Board too had proposed this. It had requested my Ministry to forward its recommendation to the relevant authority for consideration. As the Ministry of Labour is the Ministry which is administering the Holidays Act, I shall again convey the wish of the Member for Anson to the Hon. Minister for Labour. But if I know the Minister for Labour well enough, I think he might not be too happy with this suggestion. But he might be more flexible in his attitude if the Member for Anson would consider swapping Deepavali with Thaipusam. Anyway, this is not for me to decide. I will certainly pass it on to the Minister for Labour for his consideration.

As regards daily-rated employees having Thaipusam as a public holiday, I am told that this follows an agreement between the seven daily-rated unions and the Ministry of Finance to have Thaipusam as a public holiday in place of another day in the gazetted public holidays list. Prior to 1976 they exchanged Vesak Day for Thaipusam. As from 1976, the daily-rated employees unions, with the agreement of the Ministry of Finance, exchanged Good Friday for Thaipusam as a public holiday for daily- rated workers.

The fourth point raised by the Member for Anson was on the Fire Service. It is not correct to say that the Fire Brigade has purchased all the equipment and appliances it needs to enhance its efficiency. The Brigade still has to replace many existing appliances with more modern and technologically advanced types. However, fire-fighting equipment and appliances cannot prevent fires. They can only be used by well - trained fire personnel to fight fires. Further- more, with more homes and factories being built the risk of fire outbreaks increases. The increase in the number of fires is, however, an indication of complacency among our people on matters of fire safety. The Fire Brigade is aware that regular fire prevention campaigns are necessary to make people conscious of the need for fire precautions. In the past few years several campaigns had been conducted on different aspects of fire safety. Since June 1975, there have been two high-rise fire prevention campaigns, two industrial fire safety campaigns and a home safety campaign. The Brigade also conducts lectures and training courses for industrial workers, workers in high-rise buildings and safety officers for industrial firms. It is hoped that in these ways the message would sink in and the incident of fire would drop. As for the training of fire officers, my Ministry has sent seven officers overseas for training since 1972. One of these officers was sent in 1976 to Canada and the United States specifically to study high-rise fire fighting operations. 5.30 p.m.

The fifth point raised by the hon. Member for Anson was on the Singapore Sports Council. On the Singapore Sports Council, I am happy to note that the Member for Anson is happy with the way the Council is being looked after by the Senior Minister of State for National Development who is also the Chairman of the Council. Personally, I feel that the hon. Member's kind words should not go unrecorded. Therefore, on behalf of the Chairman and members and staff of the Singapore Sports Council, I would like to thank the hon. Member for such beautiful words of praise from him.

However, I have to disappoint him with regard to his suggestion on whether or not the National Stadium could be extended. The capacity of the National Stadium is filled to its maximum of 60,000 only during the Malaysia Cup matches. Apart from these matches, the other football games and events do not attract a full capacity. Besides, the revenue thus gained is insufficient to meet the expenditure of the National Stadium. Therefore, there is no plan to expand the capacity of the National Stadium. I hope I have answered all the queries raised by the Member for Anson.

I now turn to the Member for Mountbatten. The Lee Kuo Chuan Creche which he spoke about has a capacity for 60 children. The average daily attendance at this creche is 40 children. This is a fairly high percentage of utilisation. The NTUC has agreed in principle to take over the operation of all Government creches. So far, two creches have been transferred to the NTUC. These are the Toa Payoh Creche which was transferred on 1st August 1977 and the Bukit Ho Swee Creche which was transferred on 1st February 1978. Eventually all the 10 creches should be taken over by the NTUC. In view of this impending transfer, my Ministry feels that the creches should remain where they are for the time being. As regards the change of name from Lee Kuo Chuan Creche to Mountbatten Creche, it is again to be left to the decision of the NTUC when they take over responsibility of the creche.

The Member for Changi has raised the issue of ambulance attendants. Ambulance attendants were formerly firemen who had undergone training in first aid to the injured and were awarded first aid certificates by the St. John's Ambulance and promoted as leading firemen. The majority of our ambulance attendants have been in the service for more than 10 years and are very experienced, possessing the basic skill of first aid which includes the immobilisation of fractures, arresting of haemorrhage, artificial respiration including external cardiac massage, and so on. They also undergo regular drills and lectures on first aid.

The Singapore Fire Brigade is constantly aware of the need to upgrade their skills and towards this end, the ambulance attendants are from time to time given regular refresher training at the Accidents and Emergency Department of the Singapore General Hospital. In 1975, and again in 1977, the ambulance attendants were given one month of intensive training at the Singapore General Hospital. The training was intended to further develop their skills in the handling of both trauma and non-trauma cases. The attachment training included a one-week training in a medical ward, a one-week training in a surgical ward followed by two weeks' training in the Accidents and Emergency Department. Furthermore, the 25 state registered nurses seconded to the Emergency Ambulance Service of the Fire Brigade are assisting the Brigade in training programmes designed to continuously upgrade the skills of ambulance attendants in the application of first aid.

The response time to emergency cases has been improved since the integration of the Fire Brigade's Accidents Ambulance Service and the Hospital's Emergency Ambulance Service. The nearest available ambulance to the Changi area is based in the Geylang Fire Station. Owing to the distance that an ambulance needs to travel from Geylang to Changi, which is approximately 16 kilometres, a response time of 20 to 30 minutes is to be expected bearing in mind the heavy vehicular traffic conditions. From the operational point of view, there are practical difficulties in stationing ambulances at police stations as the hon. Member would like it to be.

The Singapore Fire Brigade hopes to obtain approval to commence constructing a new fire station at Upper Changi Road this year and when this station becomes operational the response for calls from the Changi area will be reduced tremendously. For the information of the House, more fire stations are being planned all over Singapore in the next 10 years or so, which will result in an even coverage throughout the whole of Singapore.

I think I have answered all the points raised by hon. Members.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Acting Minister informed the House that there is the Joint Management Committee. But this committee has no power because it must notify the Hindu Advisory Board and the Hindu Endowments Board of any decision it makes. Double work is involved. The Minister could form one council with 15 members. Five members could look after the temples, another five members could look after the advisory committee and the other five members could look after the Endowments Board. It is easier for us.

The other point is about the collection of money. Under the Act, money must be collected before the 17th of the month but it should not be made compulsory. If there is a complaint today it is referred to the Hindu Advisory Board. And if there is another complaint tomorrow it is referred to the Hindu Endowments Board. What is all this? Is it reasonable and logical for the Hindus? Why does the Minister not consider setting up a Hindu Religious Council? What is the difficulty of that? He should not listen to what the Permanent Secretary says. The Minister must take the initiative to set up this council to look after all religious affairs of the Hindus. Then there will be no trouble. The people want it. The Muslims have the Muslim Religious Council to look after their affairs. Therefore, I want the Minister to recommend the setting up of the Hindu Religious Council. He could then consider the proposal to deduct a sum from the salaries of Hindu workers through the CPF. Some people have been collecting money for temples. Who authorise them to collect the money? They themselves want to build the temple. If there is a religious council, all the money collected could be controlled by this council. If they want to build a temple, they must submit a plan and state how much money is involved. The Minister must think it over.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, can the acting Minister give me an assurance that my request for the re-naming and for the re-location of the creche within the constituency's housing estate will be brought up when his Ministry starts negotiations with the NTUC for the taking over of the creches?

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan (Whampoa): Sir, the Acting Minister for Social Affairs mentioned that the ambulance attendants are given proper and regular training in respect of first aid and so forth. I am just wondering whether training in weight lifting is provided for the ambulance attendants. I had occasion to tell this House some days ago about two ambulance attendants who could not even lift a patient weighing only 140 lbs. Would he ensure that attendants do have this capacity to at least lift their patients?

Sir, would the Minister also ensure that the nurse who goes along with the ambulance pays proper and due attention to the patient before getting down to administrative details? I raised this subject under the head of Ministry of Health and was told to refer to the Minister for Social Affairs. I am telling him directly now that he should get his nursing staff acquainted with this proper priority. Otherwise, since administrative details take time to sort out, in the meantime the patient may have stopped breathing.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I will answer the hon. Member for Anson first. First of all, we must get the Ministry of Labour to agree to deduct from the CPF. Once the Minister for Labour has agreed, then we can start thinking about forming the religious council. At the moment, the Joint Management Committee under his able leadership is doing marvellously well. With his able guidance, he should be able to convince the members of the Hindu Advisory Board and also members of the Hindu Endowments Board, of which he is also the Chairman, to get things done. But, anyway, I will certainly convey his wishes and, as I was also made to understand, the wishes of the two Boards, to deduct the contributions through the CPF. After I have conveyed it to the Minister for Labour, he will then have to get the concurrence of the Minister for Finance, which is the most difficult stage. So we have a lot of obstacles in front of us. 5.45 p.m.

Coming to the Member for Mountbatten, he wants an assurance from me that I will take up with the NTUC the matter of relocating the Lee Kuo Chuan creche and changing its name. I can assure the Member that these two points will be raised with the NTUC when it is time to take over.

As regards the query raised by the Member for Whampoa, if I am not mistaken, weight lifting is part of the training. I think they do regular daily exercises. On the particular instance which he quoted during the debate on the estimates of the Ministry of Health, the Member was indirectly involved in this case. He was in the ambulance. I remember him quoting the incident of the nurse busily chit-chatting with him, or something like that.

Dr Augustine Tan: . On a point of clarification, Sir. There was no chit-chatting. The nurse in question was asking details like, "Has the patient been hospitalised before? If so, which hospital? What kind of diseases has he been suffering before?" These questions took a lot of time. In the meantime, there was a patient with a heart attack. The first thing she ought to do was to see whether the patient was still alive or still breathing. The oxygen equipment was there. Oxygen was probably necessary. She took the better part of two or three minutes questioning me before she got down to what she was supposed to do, that is, attending to the patient. This matter should not be treated lightly.

Dr Ahmad Matter: Sir, I thought the answer to that had been very well given by the Minister for Health. The question-and-answer session - since the Member for Whampoa does not like the word "chit-chatting" - between the nurse and the Member for Whampoa was part and parcel of the procedure to get the case history. I am not a doctor but the Member for Kim Seng may be able to back me up or to back up the Minister for Health when he said that it was part of the procedure to get a patient's case history. Anyway, I am not going to be engaged in a lengthy debate on this question-and-answer session. I agree with the Member for Whampoa that this is a serious matter which should be looked into. Perhaps he could give me the time, the date, the ambulance number and whatever relevant facts.

An hon. Member: The name of the nurse.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Yes, the name of the nurse, as she would be wearing a name tag. Perhaps he could supply the details. I can certainly assure the Member that the nursing staff attached to the Singapore Fire Service will be told what is the proper priority, as he had put it just now.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, there are all sons of rules and regulations regarding the erection of buildings. I have already referred this matter to the Minister. A letter should be written to the Building Control Division. They have stipulated 18 months as the period with which to build the temple. How can we do that? It will take four years. The public sector has money. We do not have the money. We have to collect the money and therefore it will take time to build the temple. I hope the Minister will make a recommendation to the Building Control Division.

Another point is that a temple, whether or not it is an authorised structure, should not be demolished unless the members concerned have been informed. If they want to demolish the temple they must give an alternative site. I hope the Minister will inform the Building Control Division of this point. The same principle should apply, irrespective of whether it is a Chinese temple or a Hindu temple. I want an assurance from the Minister that he will bring this matter to the attention of the Building Control Division. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code WB-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, a few years ago, the Registrar of Cooperative Societies had indicated that it would legislate for a Cooperative Movement Act. In this connection two I LO experts were especially seconded to the Registry to make their recommendations on the existing constitution of the co-operative societies.

I understand the experts had submitted their recommendations, but they were not accepted in toto. They were, therefore, further reviewed by our own experts and, I believe, a new legislation is being drafted.

It has been some years since we last heard of it and we are awaiting for this new legislation to be officially introduced. May I know when will this new legislation be officially introduced? What are the major changes proposed and will the changes be practical to our existing societies?

Sir, we know that the Registry has been reorganised and given additional staff to look deeper into the activities of the co-operative movement. I would like to know what educational courses and training in the promotion of co-operatives have been conducted so far after its reorganisation, and what plans have they got for the future?

There was also the proposal for a cooperative Training Centre to be organised by the Registry. What has happened to this concept? Is the Registry still sitting on it? When will this proposal materialise and where will the training centre be sited?

It appears that though the Registry has been reorganised, yet it still takes too long to handle many of its affairs. Is it because the Ministry is not giving priority for the Registry to proceed with whatever plans it has in mind? Could the Minister elaborate?

Sir, we know that Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society has been in trouble for many years. But I fail to understand why when members write in for a refund, they do not even get a reply. Nobody seems to know exactly what is happening with this society.

There is also another problem which the Mayflower Gardens Association is facing. It has a dispute with this Housing Society over the matter of disbursement accounts. It is believed that in 1969, the interest on loans granted to members upon signing the agreement was at 6%. Later in 1974, when additional loans were given to the Society to complete the estate, the interest was increased to 81/2%, at a compound rate. As a result, every resident owner had to pay an additional $11,000 approximately. Hence, a dispute has arisen between the Association and the Society. I understand that the officials of the Association have written to the Registry of Cooperative Societies to seek assistance in resolving the dispute relating to the disbursement accounts. What has the Registry done to resolve the dispute?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, for the information of the Member for Anson and the House, the draft Cooperative Societies Bill prepared by the I LO expert has not been found acceptable in the present context of Singapore. Consequently, an ad hoc committee was appointed in June 1977 to study the expert's draft and to make final recommendations to my Ministry. The ad hoc committee comprised representatives from the NTUC, the Singapore National Cooperative Union and the Registry of Cooperative Societies. The ad hoc Committee has submitted their recommendations together with a revised draft Cooperative Societies Bill to my Ministry. As the Committee's recommendations and draft Bill are being studied by my Ministry at the moment, it is therefore a little premature for me to discuss the changes in the new legislation at this stage. However, I would like to assure the Member for Anson that as far as possible we will include changes that are practical to the existing cooperative societies.

The Member then went on to touch on the reorganisation of the Registry of Cooperative Societies. Since its reorganisation in April 1976, the Registry of Cooperative Societies has been able to implement ad hoc training programmes for the benefit of the staff and members of cooperative societies. So far the Registry has conducted three training courses during the past two years. For example, in 1976 the Registry conducted a basic book-keeping course for 63 cooperators. In 1977 the Registry organised a similar basic book-keeping course for 31 Malay cooperators and a basic audit course for 32 internal auditors of cooperative societies. The Registry will continue to organise suitable training courses for the benefit of the cooperative movement from time to time.

With regard to the proposed Cooperative Training Centre, my Ministry has decided to shelve the project for the time being until the changes in the new cooperative legislation have been finalised. In the meantime, the Registry will continue to run courses on cooperative subjects on an ad hoc basis.

On his observation that my Ministry is not granting priority for the Registry to proceed with whatever plans it has in mind, I believe the Member for Anson was probably referring to the delay in the revision of the cooperative legislation and the establishment of the proposed Cooperative Training Centre. If it is, then I must emphasise that the delay in the revision of the cooperative legislation is inevitable in view of the need to provide for a comprehensive legal framework which will not only satisfy the requirements of the existing society but also pave the way for a strong, unified cooperative movement in Singapore. The Member for Anson would probably agree with me that all this requires careful study and consideration.

An hon. Member: Do not take too long.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: No, it is coming out soon. As for the delay in the establishment of the proposed training centre, this has already been explained. The Member for Anson can rest assured that my Ministry will always accord priority to the Registry to implement whatever plans there are for the promotion of cooperative development in Singapore.

On the subject of the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society Ltd., the Member for Anson may wish to know that the Society has been advised by the Registry to attend to all enquiries pertaining to refunds without fail. The Registry has reason to believe that this is being done by the Society unless the letters referred to by the Member in his speech are anonymous letters. I would suggest that the Member refer specific cases to me if letters are not attended to by the Society. I shall personally see to it that each of them gets an appropriate reply from the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society.

I certainly disagree with the Member for Anson when he said that nobody seems to know exactly what was happening in the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society. As a matter of fact, the Registry has been constantly monitoring the progress of refunds made to resigned members and is aware of the position and the problems of the Society.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society has suffered a spate of resignations of its members since 1971. This was mainly due to the failure of the Changi housing project to get off the ground and the adverse publicity arising from a misappropriation case involving a staff. Since then, some 3,262 members have resigned from the Society requiring a total refund of $5,114,286.77. As at 28th February 1978, the Society has made refunds to 2,279 of these resigned members totalling $3,129,168.41, leaving a balance of $1,985,118,36 to be refunded to the remaining 983 resigned members. At present, the membership of the Society stands at 1,504. So it is not true to say that nobody seems to know what is happening with the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society.

The Disbursement Accounts in respect of the Mayflower Gardens Estate actually refer to the payment made by the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society in the course of the development of the estate over and above the original costing and estimates. it is true that the Mayflower Gardens Association has written to the Registry to seek assistance in resolving the matter relating to the disbursement accounts. The rate of interest, as the hon. Member has rightly pointed out, would be one aspect of the matter to be looked into. As this is a complicated issue, the Registry of Cooperative Societies is conducting an investigation to identify other areas of dispute with a view to arbitrating the matter.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society is not working properly. It has already overcharged members of the Windsor Park Residents' Association. I have paid $3,000 more because I was charged for road widening. Last year, I also brought up the matter and the Society is still not working properly. The Registrar of Societies must take serious action on the Society. Otherwise why did so many members resign? It is because the Society is not working properly that the members have resigned.

The Society has wrongly invested in the piece of land at Changi. That is why it is having trouble in refunding to members who have resigned. Anyway, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. 6.05 p.m.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Haji Rahmat bin Kenap (Geylang Serai): ( In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code WB-02 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in view of the fact that Singapore is a multi-racial and multi-religious country, religious freedom should be practised. Any interference or hindrance to this free practice may offend or upset the state of a particular religion and it may be construed as an act designed to insult or humiliate that religion. Such activities are very harmful and fraught with danger, and firm action must be taken. A case came to light recently. I refer to an article in the Berita Harian of 7th March 1978, page 8, which states that a company manufacturing mee in packets named "Charmee" used the word halal (permissible) written in the Jawi script, while the English version stated that the ingredients contain pork extract which is at variance with the word halal in the Jawi script. The Muslim public could have been easily misled. Fortunately, upon receipt of a complaint from the Muslim public, the Consumers Association of Singapore (CASE) immediately took action against the company concerned to withdraw from the market all their products bearing the word halal in Jawi. This is indeed very commendable and highly appreciated by the entire Muslim community. My apprehension is that this could be an attempt by this particular company to hoodwink the Muslim public. The company is fully conscious that pork is forbidden to Muslims, and this sinister action perpetrated by this firm could incur the wrath of the Muslim public.

Sir, I wish to ask the Minister for Social Affairs whether or not this matter has been investigated by the Muslim Religious Council and what follow-up action has been taken by the Council.

I wish to further ask the Minister concerned whether this company could be prosecuted in court. In the event that court action is precluded, this reflects a weakness on the part of the Muslim Religious Council as well as the Ministry of Social Affairs in regard to the discharge of its responsibilities towards the Muslim community in Singapore.

Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin (Bedok): ( In Malay): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Singapore Muslim Religious Council or Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS) was set up by the Government as a statutory body to take over the tasks of the Muslim Advisory Board. There is no doubt that the MUIS has been and is playing a positive role for the benefit of the Islamic religion and the Muslim society in the Republic.

However, the MUIS is empowered to hold properties and coordinate property management, enter into agreements and administer lands and buildings that belong to deceased Muslims. It has also been empowered to administer a general trust fund or Muslim central fund or Bait-ul-Mal; collect religious tithes on income and on properties; act a trustees to all mosques and Muslim welfare organisations in Singapore; handle case pertaining to wills and inheritance; register converts to the Islamic faith and manage the running of Islamic religious schools in the Republic.

The MUIS has also undertaken the task o preparing the texts of Friday sermons, conducting religious courses, organising talks and lectures, organising annual Koran reading competitions, etc. Sir, in fact any activity that is connected with the Muslim community including celebrations to commemorate Prophet Mohammed's birthday, the First of Muharram or Muslim New Year Day, etc., we will see the involvement o MUIS. Apart from that, part of the money has been allocated for scholarships for Muslims who are found to be eligible to further their studies at institutions of higher learning both at home and abroad.

The MUIS makes efforts to oppose teachings purported to be Islamic but deviate from the true path of Islam. It also scrutinizes publications and recommends the banning of undesirable ones which pose a danger to Muslims in the Republic.

It is evident, therefore, that the MUIS has rendered great and most valuable services to the Muslim community in Singapore. If the number of tasks is compared with the number of members of the Council, we will no doubt see a gross imbalance. However, the MUIS has a strong financial source in the form of the collection of religious tithes paid by Muslims. Sir, according to the 1975 Report of MUIS presented to Parliament, the collection from Muslims was $757,910.59. I do not have the figures for 1976 and 1977. Broadly speaking, the MUIS has succeeded in collecting $1,491,899.

In Singapore, there are so many Muslim Malay organisations connected with religion. The objectives of these organisations are similar, namely, to serve the local Muslim community. In missionary work, for instance, the Singapore Muslim Missionary Society, the Jamiyah, has long been involved with such activities. The Central Council of Malay Cultural Organisation which has more than 30 affiliates, is conducting tuition classes, etc. Lately, it has been helping the Government to solve the drug problem. The Muslim Religious Teachers Association has been holding tuition classes for PSLE and GCE 'O' level students. The Malay Youth Literary Association, an educational and youth organisation, has long been active in the educational and welfare work and conducting tuition classes. Another body is the Prophet's Birthday Memorial Scholarship Fund Board. These bodies are usually faced with financial problems and most of them are short of funds.

Sir, what I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister concerned is whether MUIS can cooperate in all fields and give financial assistance to these bodies so that their activities can be carried out more effectively. The cooperation which I envisage should not only be in the form of attaining objectives which are similar but also in placing the MUIS in its appropriate status as a statutory body, to give guidance and instruction to the other Malay/Muslim bodies for the benefit of the whole Muslim community. Sir, this is to avoid competition among some of the organisations and the MUIS, which is detrimental to the interest of the Muslim community. The cooperation most needed is financial assistance which these bodies require in order to successfully carry out their activities or projects for the Muslim community. These bodies which I have mentioned can carry out some of the tasks which are now carried out by the MUIS. In this way the MUIS, which has got only 13 members, can concentrate on the formulation of policies and planning long-term projects in the service of the Muslim community. 6.15 p.m.

Reading from the statements of accounts contained in the 1975 Report of the MUIS, the total collection of $757,910.59 was not fully utilised and distributed to the eight categories of Muslims who deserve financial aid. The balances for that year and the following year up to 2nd January, 1976, according to the tithes collection balance sheet, amounted to $1,491,899 of which $1,413,000 was kept in the form of fixed deposits and only $49,961 was kept in the form of current accounts in the bank and also in the form of cash in hand. I am sure that the amount has grown with the addition of the 1976 and 1977 collections, the accounts of which are not yet ready.

Sir, I would like to know from the Minister why so much of the tithe collection is kept in fixed deposits and not spent for the benefit of Muslims who are in dire need of financial assistance. As far as I understand, according to a religious ruling, the tithe collections in a particular year must be spent and distributed within that year itself and should not be allowed to accumulate or carried forward to the following year. Judging from the statement of income and expenditure of the MUIS for the period 14th January, 1975 to 14th January, 1978, under the item of distribution of monies to the eight categories of Muslims, apart from the payment of commission to the collectors and aid to the abject poor, the expenses on administration and other things are not listed under any of the eight categories.

Another matter which I would like to draw the attention of the Minister is the Muslim Central Fund or Bait-ul-Mal account. In page 32 of the statement of accounts, I find that out of the total assets of $2,437,616 a sum of $2,138,522 is kept in the form of fixed deposits. From the two examples I cite here, it is clear that the MUIS is very strong financially, but .unfortunately this financial strength is not fully used for the benefit of the Muslim community as a whole. I hope the Minister concerned would carefully study my suggestion that the MUIS should use the tithe monies for the advancement of Muslims and the upliftment of their social and economic position, as is contained in the Administration of the Muslim Law Act. What is most regrettable is to hear of the plight of religious schools whose teachers and students had to face serious financial problems.

I concede that the Government's policy today is to discourage students from taking up Islamic study courses because of the consequential problems of employment. But I feel that we still require a number of these students who graduate from the University in Islamic studies to meet the needs of the Muslim community for purposes of administering new mosques in the satellite towns.

The Chairman: Haji Sha'ari, your ten minutes are up. Dr Mattar.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I will reply to the issue raised by the Member for Geylang Serai. The food company he was referring to in his speech was the Myojo Foods Co. (Singapore) Pte. Ltd. The Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS) and I share the concern of the Member for Geylang Serai over the sale of deceptive and misleading products in the market. This is particularly so when the consumers are misled into consuming products which are strictly prohibited under their religion. On 25th February, 1978 on discovering that pork extract was used in the making of a certain brand of instant noodles which the manufacturer classified as hela4 the MUIS immediately wrote to the company asking it to confirm that it had withdrawn all the misleading products from the market. For the benefit of non-Muslim Members of Parliament, "halal" in English means "Permissible", permissible to the Muslims, that is! The company was asked how it was authorised to use the halal label, since the MUIS, which is the Muslim religious authority in Singapore, had not granted the company a Tanggung Halal certificate. Again Tanggung halal means "guaranteed permissible", if my translation is correct. On 9th March, 1978, the company, through its lawyers informed the MUIS that it had withdrawn all the misleading products from the market in order to delete the word halal from the food packages. CASE and the Director of Food Administration, Ministry of the Environment, similarly instructed the company to withdraw the products from the market. The company was warned by the Ministry of the Environment that failure to do so would render it liable to prosecution action. I think that answers the query from the Member for Geylang Serai as to whether or not the company can be prosecuted in court.

Tanggung halal certificates are only issued by the MUIS to firms and manufacturers after the Department of Scientific Services of the Ministry of Science and Technology and/or SISIR have/has analysed the products and certified that they do not contain pork or any ingredient which is prohibited under Islam. Firms and manufacturers intending to classify their products as halal should apply to the MUIS for the certificates before classifying the products as halal and selling them in the market. The MUIS will not hesitate to press for prosecution under the consumers Protection Act against any firm which wilfully deceives the Muslim public into believing that its products are halal when they are not. From time to time MUIS issues statements through the mass media to clarify doubts regarding the suitability of any foodstuff for Muslim consumption. At this juncture, I would like to advise Muslim consumers to consult MUIS whenever they are in doubt with regard to the suitability of any food product.

On the queries raised by the Member for Bedok, I thank him for his salutary remarks on the MUIS. But at the same time, Sir, I am not too sure what the Member for Bedok hopes to achieve. If I am not mistaken, after listening to his long speech, he wants the MUIS to channel its financial resources to other Muslim organisations in Singapore to carry out projects, while the MUIS council members themselves would sit back to formulate the policies and so on. Am I right?

Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin: Yes.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I would have thought that a more useful approach would be for the MUIS, in addition to financial con- tributions, to associate and involve itself more closely with grassroot Muslim/Malay organisations. On this topic of involvement and association with Muslim organisations, in recent months particularly, the MUIS has been making concerted efforts to improve its rapport with Muslims and Muslim organisations in Singapore. As the Muslim religious authority advising the Government on Muslim matters, it is essential and beneficial for both the MUIS and Muslim organisations to maintain good rapport with one another. Only in this way can the MUIS be kept informed of the functions, work and opinions or problems encountered by the organisations concerned so that their views can be adequately represented to the Government. Conversely, the rapport so established will enable the MUIS to explain the relevant Government policy decisions to the Muslim public and to assist them wherever possible. To this end the MUIS has been organising various programmes and informal get-togethers to get to know the Muslim organisations better. Wherever possible and appropriate, the MUIS invites the assistance of Muslim organisations to help implement some of its projects and plans. This year, for instance, the MUIS invited Muslim leaders and organisations from 11 districts in Singapore to help organise the Awal Muharram (or the beginning of the Muslim New Year) celebrations in their respective districts. For the Prophet Muhammad's Birthday celebrations, the number of district committees organising them has also been increasing in the last few years: from six in 1975 to 13 this year. Besides giving $500 to each district to help defray the expenses incurred in organising the celebrations to commemorate the Prophet's Birthday, the MUIS also assisted the district committees to obtain permission from the relevant authorities to use selected void decks in HDB estates and sports complexes for the purpose.

The Education Committee of the MUIS has just completed a series of meetings with principals and management committees of eight full-time Islamic religious schools to obtain feedback regarding the management of the schools, their needs, problems encountered (if any) and to assess the employment prospects of their students. The MUIS is presently making arrangements to visit mosques and to have informal discussions with the respective mosque management committees regarding the activities of the mosques, their plans and programmes. 6.30 p.m.

As regards financial assistance to Muslim organisations to enable them to continue with their good work, the MUIS has been giving annual grants to Muslim organisations whose activities are beneficial to the Muslim public. Besides giving annual grants to help pay the salaries of religious teachers in Islamic religious schools and providing allowances for religious teachers who are conducting religious classes organised by Muslim organisations, welfare homes and reformative training centres, the MUIS has also been giving financial assistance to mosques and suraus. In 1977, Sir, a total of $236,606.50 was distributed for various welfare schemes beneficial to Muslims.

The Member for Bedok himself, who was the Chairman of the PERGAS Study Centre Building Committee, will recall that the MUIS contributed $70,000 towards the completion of the Centre. The appeal to the MUIS to meet this shortage of $70,000 was made at the time when the prices of building materials were escalating. It would be most unfortunate if the PERGAS Study Centre should fail because of lack of funds. That was the time when the MUIS came to the rescue. However, I wish to emphasise here that the MUIS' financial contribution of $70,000 to the PERGAS Study Centre was treated as a separate issue and excluded from the general policy governing the provision of-financial assistance to Muslim organisations. As I have said earlier on, Sir, this generous contribution of the MUIS was made to relieve the financial burden of the Centre's sponsors caused by economic conditions of the time.

Sir, I do not quite agree with the hon. Member's views that the three or four Muslim organisations he quoted in his speech are having financial difficulties and as such he would like MUIS to come forward to their aid. To the best of my knowledge, they are, financially speaking, among the top Muslim organisations in Singapore. The Muslim Missionary Society of Singapore or what is better known as the Jamiyah, for instance, can hardly be called poor or in financial difficulty when it is planning to put up a 10-storey headquarters building at Lorong 12 Geylang. The Central Council of Malay Cultural Organisation or better known as the Majlis Pusat cannot be classified as a poor organisation when, according to reliable sources, it is planning to acquire property to the tune of $200,000. Likewise, the Prophet Mohammed's Birthday Scholarship Memorial Fund Board, better known as the LBKM. These organisations, in my opinion, do not need financial help from the MUIS to defray expenses for whatever projects they have planned.

Speaking of the Central Council of Malay Cultural Organisation or Majlis Pusat I am happy to say that the MUIS has pledged something like between $3,000 and $4,000 initially as part of its contribution to the joint MUIS-Majlis Pusat project to combat drug problems. The Member for Bedok also mentioned another Malay organisation called 4 PM. As far as I know, MUIS used to contribute $300 annually to this organisation to help in the running of its kindergarten programme. The last contribution from the MUIS to this particular organisation was made in 197 5. This was stopped not because MUIS ceased to make its contribution but because the organisation itself did not ask for the continuation of the contribution. This in itself, Sir, reflects the healthy financial state of affairs of this particular organisation.

The hon. Member for Bedok also mentioned that all the money collected through fitrah is not being spent fully. Under the Islamic law, fitrah proceeds should be fully utilised if we are to adhere to the Muslim law governing its distribution. In fact, this is exactly what MUIS has been doing. The fitrah collection, as the Member is aware, is divided into the eight asnafs. But it is inevitable that at the end of each financial year there will be surpluses from some of the asnafs. For example, $100,000 were set aside by MUIS for its scholarship which I disclosed earlier on this afternoon in answer to the Oral Question raised by the hon. Member for Geylang Serai. This sum of money is derived from two of the asnafs. If I remember correctly, the asnafs concerned are Rekab and Ibni-Sabil.

I think I have answered the points raised by the Member for Bedok as well as the Member for Geylang Serai.

Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin: ( In Malay): Sir, when giving the figures from the Annual Report of MUIS, Paper Cmd. 9 of 1977, tabled before Parliament on 2nd August 1977, I wanted to know whether MUIS has any plans to study the financial position and how to utilise the money to help those who are in need of assistance. I have often heard that students who applied for scholarships from MUIS were rejected just because they were late in submitting their applications. If there were such cases, I feel that the students should be given assistance. I also feel that MUIS should take a more liberal attitude and should not be so strict as to give reasons that the students were late in submitting their application. If the money in the Muslim trust fund, which is quite a lot, is kept in current account, the MUIS could just issue a cheque to an applicant if his application is approved. But if the money were put in fixed deposit accounts it would be very difficult to withdraw the money. That is why I suggest that the money deposited in the Muslim trust fund and earning interest could be further allocated for the benefit of muslims.

With regard to the Malay organisations, like the Muslim Missionary Society of Singapore, it is not that I am not aware that their financial position is good. I would like to see that there is no competition. We do not want the MUIS, which is a statutory board entrusted to look after the affairs of the Muslims, to compete with these charitable organisations. I feel that the MUIS could obtain cooperation from these organisations as mentioned by the Minister just now and as stated in a Muslim magazine issued recently. There was apparently good rapport between these bodies and I congratulate the MUIS for that. It shows that MUIS is keen to see that Muslim organisations are in close contact with one another. I see no reason why this suggestion should not be implemented.

As mentioned earlier, these organisations are financially strong and should not be given financial assistance. For example, as far as I know, the Muslim Missionary Society has been conducting missionary work for the past 20 years. The Muslim Religious Council can entrust this work to the Muslim Missionary Society. For example, a member of the MUIS can sit on the Society and give advice with regard to missionary work so that they could carry out their work more effectively because there is a lack of manpower at the moment.

I just wanted to clarify what has been said by the Minister. I am happy to hear that the MUIS has allocated a sum of $3,000 to Majlis Pusat in order to enable them to carry out their work.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, the hon. Member for Bedok complained that the MUIS should be more flexible in their attitude towards granting scholarships and should entertain late applications. MUIS is a statutory body and, like all responsible statutory bodies, they have their rules and regulations. They have to abide by the closing date mentioned in their announcements of offer of scholarships made in the local press, the mass media and so on. The moment they entertain one case based on feelings and emotions there would be no end to this kind of story. If the students are genuinely interested in the scholarships, they should make sure that the application forms are submitted in time. The moment we allow one late case to be considered after the closing date, thousands of late applications will have to be similarly entertained. So where do we draw the line? I think the question of fixing a closing date is important. This is really the point which I would like to stress as far as scholarship is concerned. The other remarks made by the Member for Bedok are salutary.

Mr Ahmad Haleem (Telok Blangah): Sir, I only have a very short question to ask of the Minister. I understand from certain quarters that the MUIS is considering disallowing Muslim students from going overseas for further religious studies. Could the Hon. Minister please clarify the situation?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, if hon. Members recall, last week the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Defence described Singaporeans as great grumblers, and when they are in the SAF they make champion grumblers. I am not too sure, Sir, whether we should elaborate this description further by saying that they are not only grumblers but also rumour-mongers. Anyway, I can answer the question raised by the Member for Telok Blangah. At least I am happy that he raised this in Parliament so that I can clear the air of any mischievous rumour-mongering that is going on at the moment. 6.45 p.m.

Like other responsible statutory boards, the MUIS has definite policies on its awards of scholarships and bursaries to Muslim students. The number of awards in each discipline or area of study is dictated by manpower projections over a period of time. In view of Singapore's industrialisation programme and its need for skilled workers, it is only natural that there would be more awards for skill training than anything else. Whatever it is, as I have mentioned in my answer to an Oral Question raised by the Member for Geylang Serai at the beginning of today's Sitting, about 20% of MUIS scholarship and bursary provisions between 1975 and 1977 were allotted to students pursuing Islamic religious studies.

At present and for quite some years tO come, the need for Islamic scholars, and lot me be frank about it, is rather limited in Singapore. The handful of posts in the MUIS establishment which may require the services of such scholars, for example, the Mufti, the Registrar of Muslim Marriages, the President of the Syariah Court, have been filled by men who, barring any unforeseen eventualities like misconduct, resignations and things like that, or who may have to be removed because of sheer incompetence, will be holding their posts for many years to come. They are in their early 40s. So they still have about 15 years more to go. Another area where such graduates can be absorbed into are the Islamic religious schools in Singapore.

However, as far as I can remember from reading reports given me, basing on information of returning scholars and projected demands for Muslim scholars, demand matches supply for the years 1977-80. The supply and demand situation will be reviewed in 1981. Sir, for any organisation to give scholarships and bursaries to pursue courses at institutions of higher learning without knowing the marketability and the employability of the recipients of these scholarships upon graduation is, in my opinion, a miscarriage of justice and an unpardonable error. Recipients of such awards will pursue their respective courses of study in earnest and with high hopes and expectations - with high hopes of doing well and succeeding in getting the degrees they are working for; and with expectations to be employed upon graduation. I am a very practical man. I do not believe that any sane, practical and down-to-earth person will go to a university just to gain knowledge without knowing the employment prospects after graduation. Knowing the market conditions for graduates in Islamic theology, the MUIS is therefore taking steps to ensure that we do not over-produce them. But it is definitely wrong and mischievous on the part of the rumour-mongers to say that the MUIS is banning Muslim students from going overseas to take up courses in Islamic theology and related disciplines. If they have the means to do so and if they are accepted by the institutions of higher learning concerned where such courses are available, no one can stop them from going. But whether they will be employed when they return to Singapore is something for the students themselves and their parents to decide.

Haji Rahmat bin Kenap: ( In Malay): Sir, I am satisfied with the explanation given by the Minister and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ivan Baptist (Potong Pasir): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code WB-05 of the Main Estimates,

Sir, the Central Complaints Bureau, now the Central Complaints Services, set up in July 1962 with the purpose of eradicating discourtesy, misconduct, petty bureaucracy or tardiness and discrimination in Government departments and statutory bodies, has received more than 10,000 complaints since its inception. When the Services were started, many complaints flowed in. Gradually the number fell. Was this due to the efficiency of the Services or its lack of efficiency in contributing towards the maintenance of a prompt and efficient Civil Service? Or is this an indication of the lack of confidence in the Services?

Sir, the number of complaints to the press against Government departments and statutory bodies has risen tremendously. In fact, most newspapers have been so overloaded with letters of complaint that new columns had to be introduced to cater to them and the replies. For instance, besides their almost daily replies to readers' columns and so on, the Straits Times has introduced a half page on Thursdays called "Forum". The other newspapers have had to do likewise. It is maintained in many quarters that complaints to the press receive quicker and more effective replies and solutions to problems. Could it be that significant complaints to the Services have ended up in the waste paper basket, or that petty ones are dealt with in the press to heighten the success statistics of the Services? In 1975, 34 complaints of discourtesy and unhelpfulness against civil servants were received by the Central Complaints Services. In 1976, there were 19 and in 1977 there were 42 complaints. With the rapid dwindling of complaints since 1962 to the Central Complaints Services and a marked increase of complaints to the press, is the Minister not seriously considering closing down the Central Complaints Services as it is no more cost-effective?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first of all, I would like to correct the Member for Potong Pasir. He quoted figures showing the number of complaints received by the Central Complaints Bureau or now the Central Complaints Services. That is, in 1975 there were 34 complaints; in 1976, 19 complaints and in 1977 there were 42 com- plaints. It is not dwindling, Sir. It is oscillating. The primary function of the Central Complaints Bureau is to look into complaints directed at civil servants for discourtesy, misconduct, petty bureaucracy, unnecessary delay of service and discrimination of service. The number of complaints received by the Bureau in the past few years did not show a definite increasing or decreasing trend. As I have said, it is oscillating.

An hon. Member: Yo-yo-ing.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Yo-yo-ing, fair enough! The number has actually been fluctuating. In fact, a better term I would prefer to use is 'oscillating'. It gives it a scientific touch. During the past five years, for instance, the number of cases received had been oscillating between 559 and 695 cases a year. In 1973, the Bureau received 566 complaints. In 1974 the number was 579; 695 cases were received in 1975; 559 cases in 1976 and 592 cases in 1977.

The number of complaints received and published in the press has no direct bearing on the effectiveness of the Bureau at all. With increasing literacy, people may want to air their complaints in the press because they like to see their names in print. The Bureau will not be able to compete with the press simply because complaints to the Bureau are not made public, and the complainant does not get the satisfaction of seeing his grouses aired publicly. In any case, Sir, the nature of the complaints handled by the Bureau is different from that received by the press. Whilst the Bureau attend to complaints against individual civil servants for misconduct, the press normally handles complaints against the kind of services rendered by Government departments, for example, breakdowns in power supply, requests to rescreen certain television programmes and so on and so forth. Such cases, if received by the Bureau will be re-channelled to the appropriate departments for consideration.

Sir, all complaints received by the Bureau are thoroughly examined, and, if necessary, the Bureau will conduct its own investigations before referring the complaints to the departments concerned. The Bureau sometimes receives complaints which are malicious and frivolous against hard-working and innocent civil servants. In such cases, the Bureau ensures that the civil servants are protected from injustice through careful investigation. The Bureau will not hesitate to take action against malicious complaints. On the other hand, if a complaint is proven, the Bureau sees to it that appropriate action is taken against the culprit. It is the policy of the Bureau to keep the complainant informed of the outcome of his complaint immediately and for cases which require protracted investigation and verification of statements made by various parties, interim replies are given to let the complainant know that the Bureau is still actively pursuing the issue on his behalf. Although the Bureau has a small staff, it can cope with the complaints received through effective deployment of staff and the cooperation of the departments which have dealings with the Bureau.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I think the Minister should have mentioned that quite a number of public complaints are channelled through Members of Parliament during their "Meet-the-people" sessions and not only the press and his own complaints bureau. Unfortunately, Sir, he has also made unwarranted aspersions on letter writers to the press. I do not think that the majority of these complainants are out to seek publicity. Maybe they think that it is a more effective channel than writing to his Central Complaints Services.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: I am sorry. Sir, that I have forgotten to acknowledge the fact that Members of Parliament are also sources through which public can channel their complaints. I acknowledge his comment on that. But as to whether or not the complainant seeks publicity, this is something which I do not know. How does the Member know that they are not seeking publicity? 7.00 p.m.

Dr Augustine Tan: I do not know. I am asking the Minister why is he making the allegation that they are out to seek publicity. That is a serious allegation.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: This is just my opinion and the Member is entitled to his.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Just two questions, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir. As the Minister mentioned just now, the Bureau cannot compete with the press. Therefore, I am questioning the existence of the Bureau. I am also wondering whether or not some of the complaints end up in the waste paper basket or are they sent to the press.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I will answer the second question first. I can assure hon. Members that complaints sent to the Bureau do not end up in the waste paper basket.

An hon. Member: Are they K.I.V.'d?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Maybe they are K.I.V.'d but they do not end up in the waste paper basket. KIV trays and waste paper baskets are two different things.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Are the complaints sent to the press?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: No, Sir. As regards the existence of the Bureau, I myself strongly feel we should review its existence. After all the Bureau is just operating as an agency. It channels the cases to the respective Ministries. So why not get the complainants to send their complaints direct to the Ministry concerned? I am reviewing the existence of the Bureau.

Mr Ivan Baptist: That, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, is in line with my thinking. So I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: (5) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code WC-01 of the Main Estimates.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead WC-01 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon and Dr Ong Leong Boon are not here. Mr Teo, amendment (7).

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code WC-04 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, it is unfortunate but true that our society is becoming more materialistic nowadays. Today the people are in a rat race. They work as hard or even harder than the past. However, they are only concerned with their own interest and benefits. Therefore, when it comes to social work, there is still room for improvement.

Care for the aged destitutes is an area where more attention should be focused. Looking after the aged is always a problem in our society. Today there are a number of homes for the aged, some of which are run by the Government and others are run by social bodies. However, these homes are still insufficient to accommodate all the aged who need help. There are a number of aged destitutes who are sometimes seen roaming about in the streets. Some of these old people sleep in the open and they depend on the people for food. One cannot understand why some of these old people are not accommodated in the homes. Is it because they do not qualify for admission, or is it because there is no place for them in the homes for the aged? Therefore, one would like to know what are the criteria for admission? Are the relevant authorities following these criteria strictly, or are they giving special consideration to certain old people who require urgent help? Next, has the Government carried out a survey to find out how many aged destitutes require accommodation in homes for the aged? It is clear that more homes for the aged are required than what we have at present. I wonder whether the Hon. Minister would consider building more homes for the aged.

We seem to think that our job is completed once we put the aged in homes for the aged. Merely by giving these people lodging and food, however, is not enough. Life is not only a matter of living but to live meaningfully. To start with, may I know from the Hon. Minister what facilities do we offer to the inmates of the homes for the aged? I should think the more important facilities are medical and recreational facilities. The medical facilities in most of these homes are far from satisfactory. As old people are more prone to sickness, we should even consider having mini hospitals in the bigger homes. The present recreational facilities in the homes for the aged are far from adequate. At the least the inmates should have facilities to exercise their body and mind. They should be taught simple skills in handicraft if they are able to, so that they can make use of their time fruitfully. Besides, television sets should be available for those who care for this type of entertainment. Perhaps film shows should also be screened regularly for these people.

The inmates of homes of the aged also like to feel that they are not forgotten. Today certain supportive groups make visits to the aged destitutes to befriend them and to cheer them up. However, these visits are too rare to be considered useful. There should be regular visits throughout the year. Perhaps the Government can start the ball rolling by encouraging civil servants to visit the homes. It is also very rarely that functions are organised for the aged. These functions are particularly important because besides giving them the idea that they are not a forgotten lot, they are also something for the old folks to look forward to. Right now, I understand these functions are rare because of the lack of funds. Therefore, it may be useful for the Government to set up a fund for the inmates of the old homes. The Government can even encourage the people to contribute towards this fund by giving them tax benefits. This fund can be used to organise regular functions for the inmates. If these measures are carried out, I am sure the inmates of homes for the aged would be a happier lot.

Looking after the physically and mentally disabled aged persons is another area where something need to be mentioned. I agree that it is the responsibility of every family to look after any member who is physically or mentally disabled. However, this may not be possible sometimes. For example, take a family of three, consisting of a couple and an aged parent. If both the husband and the wife are working, who is going to look after their aged parent if he of she is physically or mentally disabled? The couple may not earn enough to pay a nurse to look after their parent. However, they certainly would not mind paying a small sum of money if the Government has the facilities to look after their disabled parent for them. This problem will become more critical in future because of two factors. Firstly, industrialisation in Singapore will develop further and thus more people will be employed. Secondly, with the encouragement of the Government, the present trend is to have small families. Therefore, now is the time for the Government to think of expanding the essential facilities for the care of the mentally and physically disabled as these facilities are presently inadequate in Singapore.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member for Changi has touched on the problem of the aged. My Ministry is fully aware of this problem and we are encouraging community and other organisations to start homes for the aged for those who are in need. The Member mentioned that there are a number of aged destitutes who are running about in the streets or sleeping by the roadside, or something to that effect. Sir, if he is aware of any case, he should do us a favour by reporting the matter to the Social Welfare Department or to the Police so that assistance can be given.

We have homes for the destitutes as well as a home for the aged. Aged destitutes who are above 60 years of age qualify for admission to our Woodlands Home for the Aged. Where there are special cases which require urgent help, the Social Welfare Department will attend to them. Those who are destitute and who are below 60 are considered for admission to our homes for destitutes. Besides the Woodlands Home for the Aged run by the Social Welfare Department, there are 21 registered homes for the aged in Singapore. Medical facilities in these homes are adequate. In the Woodlands Home for the Aged, for example, a doctor and nurses are attached to the Home to attend to the medical needs of the inmates. There is also a sick bay and a therapy room. In the other larger homes for the aged run by the Singapore Council of Social Service and other organisations there are also medical personnel on duty. Arrangements are also made for doctors to look after the aged in these homes.

As far as possible, the aged in the homes are encouraged to be active. Activities to keep them meaningfully occupied include handicrafts, poultry farming, gardening and simple jobs which are obtainable from factories such as washing of bottles. Those who are able are also encouraged to help in the maintenance of the homes. In the Woodlands Home, for instance, the inmates who can work are given light duties and they are paid allowances for such duties. I can assure the Member for Changi that all the homes for the aged have television sets and, in many cases, Rediffusion sets are also available to entertain them as well.

Sir, various civic and community organisations also organise outings, parties, film shows and other recreational activities for them. These include occasional attendances at the National Theatre for good quality cultural shows. If at all, the inmates of the old folks' homes sometimes have too many activities organised for them, particularly during festive seasons. The Member may also wish to know that the aged in the Woodlands Home are given pocket money. There is really no need for a special fund to be set up to organise functions for the inmates. However, the Member may wish to know that contributions to bona fide homes for the aged are exempted from income tax. The Voluntary Social Service Bureau of my Ministry organises volunteers for social work including visits to the aged in the homes. Many civil servants are involved. We will continue to encourage volunteers to visit the aged regularly. 7.15 p.m.

Sir, the problem of the chronic sick is one for the Ministry of Health to look into. Much as we would like to help families who are unfortunate to have physically and mentally disabled at home, they will have to look after them on their own. We do not want to encourage families to discard their disabled as it is the responsibility of the family to look after them. We should not allow the excuse of industrialisation and the encouragement of small families to discard disabled members of the family for whatever reasons. These members can enlist the assistance of the Home Nursing Foundation of the Ministry of Health to help them look after their disabled, if necessary.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to with- draw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item 1210 of Subhead Code WC-08 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, it has been observed that cases referred to the Legal Aid Bureau take a long time to settle. Some even take years to complete. This is because of the limited man- power at the Legal Aid Bureau.

In 1975, there were 10,986 cases; in 1976 12,554; 1977 10,051 and 8,949 for this year. The cases that were registered during the last three years were: 6,834 in 1975, 8,165 for 1976 and 8,580 for 1977. The cases that were completed in 197 5 were 5,266, 10,668 in 1976; and 9,682 for 1977.

Looking at these figures, it shows that thousands of cases were carried forward and thousands registered. It is no wonder that the staff cannot cope with their work and sometimes they do not deal with their cases satisfactorily. For instance, sometime ago there was the case of an old man who was swindled by one of his former friends of his CPF savings which he had drawn out. For a few years the poor man went all over the place to get assistance to recover the money from the swindler but in vain. Finally he went to the Legal Aid Bureau to take up the case.

The Legal Aid Bureau took some time to deal with the case but it did not satisfactorily settle the matter for the old man because the other party managed to get away with it. Today, this old man who claims to be an independent person, appears to be a social problem, because of his worries of being swindled of his CPF savings.

What steps are being taken by the Legal Aid Bureau to expedite and efficiently handle the cases of unfortunate people who have come for assistance? Is it because of the shortage of staff that they cannot cope up with the work? If it is, the Bureau must increase its staff so that it can help settle those cases.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has observed that cases referred to the Legal Aid Bureau take a long time to settle and some even take years to complete. He has concluded that this is because of limited manpower. Sir, I would like to point out that the delay in settling of cases is not due entirely to the shortage of manpower. The delay is inevitable, as legal problems are such that with few exceptions they cannot be resolved on the spot most of the time. I think being a lawyer yourself, Sir, you know this. Statements will have to be recorded from the parties concerned. Thereafter the case has to be investigated. Where possible, the Bureau will try to negotiate with the other parties. This takes time. If no settlement is reached, the case may have to go to court. The necessary papers and documents will then have to be prepared for a court hearing. The hearing days are fixed by the courts. Before the matter can be taken to court an opinion has to be written and placed before the Legal Aid Board, which meets twice a month.

The Bureau has put up proposals for more staff but it has not been able to justify them to the Finance Ministry. However, the Bureau was able to obtain the services of temporary staff in 1976 to clear up some of the backlog. Administrative changes have been taken to cut down the delay and the situation is closely monitored to ensure that cases are not unduly delayed.

With regard to the old man who was swindled of his CPF savings, I assure the Member for Anson that I will personally look into this case, if he undertakes to furnish me with the following details: the name and NRIC of the person and the Legal Aid Bureau reference number, if any.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: If the Minister approaches the Finance Ministry for extra staff, he must press on with his request. Anyway, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting:

(9) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item 8101 of Subhead Code WC-05 of the Development Estimates.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I am not moving my amendment.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code WD-01 of the Main Estimates.

Throughout history, mankind has continually thought out and created ways of releasing his aggressive and competitive energies. When he was not engaged in wars and combat for political aims, he challenged his fellows in the joust and the chase and delighted in the risks and dangers of competition. In his desire to win the laurel wreaths, the roman charioteer would risk life and limb while the spectators urged him on to more daring exploits. In modern times too, the young and the brave are no different, and they too have the desire to flirt with death. The horse has given way to the internal combustion engine and the knight's shining armour has become the skin tight suit and crash helmet. After two world wars, Members of this House will remember the political agitation that was taking place. The risks and dangers were all there.

Now in the seventies, we are politically stable, and there is no war to be fought. The competitive spirit finds expression in other ways - in studies, in sports and in the pursuit of one-upmanship. Whilst some may excel in football or squash, and others in tennis or swimming, there are many who are particularly adept in driving or riding. The rebelliousness of youth and hell rider problem are not new. We cannot legislate away the natural aggression of youth and if we persist in denying the controlled and healthy outlet of this drive, we must expect to find it being manifested in some other more destructive forms.

Would the Hon. Minister consider providing a permanent grand prix circuit together with a mini grand prix circuit and an oval for stock car racing? If the Minister does not understand what stock car racing is, it is racing using standard cars which we find on the roads. A permanent circuit will not completely solve the problem of hell drivers and riders. However, it will definitely remove a large majority of adherents from these groups as they would have a safe, expertly supervised place to race. The circuit will, of course, also cater for the responsible mature motoring enthusiast who has at present no place to pit his skills against others and who would not dream of racing on the public roads. ft would also be a safe and suitable place for the police to test their pursuit cars, for police and army driver training, for go-kart and bicycle racing and even jogging and walkathons. I am sure that the Singapore Sports Council together with the Singapore Motor Sports Club would have no difficulties in setting up and running such motor sports facilities. I understand that a total of 400,000 spectators attended the last Singapore Grand Prix in 1973 and I am sure there would be sufficient public support to more than sustain the upkeep and running of the circuits without them being a financial liability to the Government. There are many possible sites for the building of these circuits, and one of them is the area of reclaimed land between the Pandan reservoir and the sea. But perhaps a more suitable site is the circuit that the Ministry of Defence is getting for their drivers. A little coordination and cooperation would save a lot of money and an additional $1 million to $1.5 million would be sufficient to cater for the needs of the grand prix and mini grand prix circuits and the oval. The Ministry of Defence can make use of the place during the week days and the weekends can be used for motor racing. On the safety factor, we could seek the advice of the International Federation of Automobile. It has been found that in properly organised circuits, spectator deaths have been zero and driver deaths have mainly been during practice when they were trying out new equipment and parts. The present hell driver situation in Singapore could result in many deaths of spectators because there are no safety precautions.

There are some who think that motor racing is wasting energy. Let me give Members an example. If 20% of Singapore's 130,000-odd motorcars drove for ten miles on a Sunday morning for social visiting or recreation, the total fuel consumption, assuming an average consumption of 30 miles per gallon would be 8,666 gallons or 39,000 litres of petrol. Whereas a race on a Sunday involving 80 entries over a 3.35 miles circuit would consume an insignificant 5.15 gallons or 23.2 litres of petrol.

On the income side, one grand prix and forty weekly mini grand prix stock car racing and other smaller events together with advertisement income would gross an estimated $1.5 million. In time, Singapore could become one of the Formula I racing circuits of the world, bringing with it, the prestige to our country, and not to mention, the increased tourist trade. Motor racing is one of the most popular spectator sports in the world and we should cater for the people in Singapore who are keen motor racing enthusiasts.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, as time is running short and as a lover of a less expensive and less dangerous sport, could I kindly just ask the Hon. Minister in charge if he could elaborate on the Master Plan for Sports for the next five years? If the information released previously were true, what progress has been made? Was any emphasis given at all for the construction of indoor stadia, and in fact is any indoor stadium to be built?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I will answer the points raised by the Member for Telok Blangah first. He has posed the question and I quote, "Would the Minister consider providing a permanent grand prix circuit together with a mini grand prix circuit and an oval for stock car racing?" The answer is "No". Motor racing up to April 1973, was held at Upper Thomson Road. The grand prix was cancelled as the Thomson Road Circuit was proving to be a great danger to spectators and participants. 7.30 p.m.

It was also a great inconvenience to residents of the area as it required the closure of roads leading into it. The oil crisis also contributed to the stand taken by the Govern- ment not to continue with motor racing on public roads. The organisation of motor racing under controlled conditions would, as the hon. Member has suggested, require the provision of a proper motor racing circuit. Considerable expenditure would be entailed in acquiring a sizable acreage of land and building costs. It is also estimated that recurrent expenditure would be high.

On the question of estimates and expenditure, I do not quite understand what the Member meant when he said, and I quote:

"An additional $1 million to $1.5 million would be sufficient to cater for the needs of the grand prix and mini grand prix circuits and the oval." According to my estimates, Sir, to build a grand prix circuit alone, without including the circuit for the mini grand prix and the oval, would cost between $17 million and $20 million with a recurrent expenditure estimated at $1 million per year.

The hon. Member for Telok Blangah has also gone into great pains to calculate the total amount of fuel consumed on one Sunday morning by some 26,000 cars in Singapore. With each car travelling 10 miles and on an overage fuel consumption of 30 miles per gallon the figure of 8,666 gallons of fuel consumed is, I must say, quite startling. Sir, I am not quite sure what sort of grand prix the hon. Member has in mind which would consume, in his own words, and I quote "an insignificant 5.15 gallons of petrol" for 80 entries on a 3.35 miles circuit. I am not too sure what kind of grand prix this is which only consumes 5.15 gallons of petrol whereas the Sunday morning motoring by the 26,000 cars consume something like 8,666 gallons of petrol. So if this is the grand prix which the Member for Telok Blangah is proposing to introduce, which consumes only 5.15 gallons of petrol, I think I am all for it and I will certainly convince my -Cabinet colleagues including the Prime Minister himself that such a grand prix is worth supporting.

Sir, let us ponder the implications of the Member's suggestion to introduce grand prix just to accommodate the hell-riders and hell-drivers and so on. I think his recommenda- tion is contrary to what the Hon. Minister for Home Affairs is trying to do, i.e. to eliminate this menace which we call hell driving and hell riding. In fact, the Member's proposal will negate all efforts and resources of the Minister for Home Affairs to combat this social disease. I have every confidence that with stiffer measures which include heavier fines and jail sentence and the seven-year suspension of driving licence taken against these hell riders and hell drivers by the Police, this problem can and will be contained.

As the Member for Telok Blangah is aware, both the Government and the private sector have spent millions of dollars in providing meaningful recreational facilities to the public in various places in Singapore, particularly at the East Coast Park. So instead of engaging themselves in highly dangerous activities like hall riding and hell driving these youths could just well discharge their youthful exuberance and bountiful energy through activities like swimming, either in the lagoon or in the open sea, jogging and cycling. The least they could do is to fly kites.

The Member for Kim Seng has asked about the Master Plan for sports. Unlike grand prix circuit, I have a more cheerful answer to give. The Singapore Sports Council's plan for sports promotion for the next five years would be focused on three main areas. Firstly, an increase in the tempo of sports promotion programme. This would involve constituencies, intra-zone and intra-constituency tournaments; mass events; training and instructional schemes; the aerobic fitness schemes; the development of more fitness parks; further research in sports medicine and surveys on sports participation patterns.

The next area is the implementation of sports facilities in strategic areas in accordance with the Master Plan for Sports Facilities. The Master Plan provides for the building of multi-purpose indoor stadia, football fields, tennis courts, squash courts and swimming pools in those locations which are likely to require these facilities after taking into account what facilities exist or are being planned by other bodies, such as the Housing and Development Board, Ministry of Education and so on. Existing sports facilities will also be upgraded from time to time to meet the demands of population growth or shifts.

The third area, Sir, is the training of an adequate number of coaches and instructors in accordance with the coaching Plan to cater to the growing numbers of people participating in sports at all levels. If I am not mistaken, Sir, the hon. Member for Kim Seng also wants some details. These are the details which have been approved in principle by the Ministry of Finance. There are provisions for two multi-purpose stadia, one for the north zone and one for the west zone. Perhaps, at this stage, I would elaborate on how Singapore is divided into zones. The Sports Council has divided Singapore into five zones, namely, the north, south, east, west, and the central. The central zone, for example, comprises constituencies -like Toa Payoh, Kim Keat and so on whereas the south zone consists of constituencies in the City area. The east zone comprises constituencies like Siglap, Marine Parade and so on. These are the five zones. Two indoor stadia have therefore been approved, one for the north zone and one for the west zone; three football fields for the west zone: 30 squash courts, six for each zone; 70 tennis courts, eight for the central zone, 16 for the east zone, 18 for the south zone, 18 for the west zone and 10 for the north zone; seven swimming pools, three for the north zone, one for the east zone and three for the west zone.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, it is a pity that the Hon. Minister has given a very big "No" to my request. But nevertheless, I would like to clarify on the 5.15 gallons. It is for one round. In a grand prix there are 40 circuits and the total consumption is only 206 gallons. It is not very much.

He also mentioned about the efforts made by the Ministry of Home Affairs. I understand that even with stiffer penalties the number of hell riders is not decreasing. They are actually on the increase. As I said in my speech earlier on, the aggression of youth cannot be contained. I shudder to think of the day when Singapore succeeds in containing the aggression of all our youths. And should there be any external aggression, all our youths would not be able to stand up to fight because all the fight in them would have been smothered. On the other hand, if this state of affairs continues and there is no relief to the pressure, one fine day there is going to be one mighty bang and we will all be in trouble.

In any case, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (11), Mr Teo is not speaking.

The sum of $29,432,040 for Head W ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $1,217,500 for Head W ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I shall now deal with the remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement. In respect of the Main Estimates, they are Heads B, C, D, E, G, H and X.

I propose to take these heads of expenditure en bloc

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Main Estimates on page 25 of Paper Cmd 2 of 1978 stand part of the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979," put and agreed to

The Chairman: In respect of the Development Estimates, they are Heads D and H.

I propose again to take those heads of expenditure en bloc

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Development Estimates on page 26 of Paper Cmd 2 of 1978 stand part of the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979, "put and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $2,899,759,850 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979, contained in Paper Cmd 2 of 1978," put and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $2,754,673,120 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979, contained in Paper Cmd 2 of 1978," put and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply have come to certain resolutions.

First Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $2,899,759,850 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979 contained in Paper Cmd 2 of 1978."

Second Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $2,754,673,120 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1978 to 31st March, 1979, contained in Paper Cmd 2 of 1978."

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolutions."

Question put and agreed to.

Resolutions accordingly agreed to.