MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1980 TO 31ST MARCH, 1981

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [6th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head W -

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Object Group 1100 of Subhead Code WA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like the Hon. Minister to enlighten the House with regard to the Government policy concerning the provision of homes for the aged, taking into account the increasing number of old folks over the years. Presently, the Government has only the Woodlands Home and Woodstock Home for the Aged, while a good number of homes are being managed by charitable and civic organisations.

With the increasing number of aged in the future, it is necessary for the Government to take on a greater role to provide more space for the aged who do not have anyone to depend on. The Government cannot expect the private sector, which is already carrying a heavy burden, to continue to provide a major share of the space that is needed. Many of the aged would have served the country in various capacities and the least the Government can do is to provide them with a roof over their heads.

Of course, the Government should encourage more charitable and civic organisations to maintain and provide more space for the aged. In this connection, I would urge the Ministry to assist these organisations in the implementation of their plans to establish new homes. More than that, I hope the Hon. Minister will consider providing a grant to charitable and civic organisations to encourage them further to establish such homes.

Besides the mere provision of space for the aged, the Government should consider providing certain basic amenities in these homes, including recreational facilities, vocational work and hobby-crafts. Then the residents can occupy their time with some work and leisure. The Government should give incentives for the charitable and civic organisations to provide such recreational and vocational facilities. Such incentives can be by way of grants or material assistance.

I would like to seek the Hon. Minister's comments on the points I have made.

Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin (Bedok): Mr Speaker, Sir, according to statistics released at a recent seminar on The Aging and the Aged, Singapore will have over 192,000 people aged 60 years and over by 1985. This number will increase to about 233,000 by 1990. At present we have an estimated 169,000 people who are over 60 years old. Already, problems associated with old age are surfacing at a regular rate and organisations like the Singapore Action Group of Elders (SAGE), the Housing and Development Board and the People's Association which recently announced schemes for retirees, are doing their part to help solve some of these problems. Organisations like SAGE, which cater for the needs of our senior citizens, are at most stop-gap measures but it will be sagacious for the aged to be looked after by the family in the long run. I am not advocating the concept that the Government should wash its hands of the business and leave the senior citizens to their own plight, for the Government has still an effective role to play in caring for them. It has been estimated that by 1985 we would have a population of some 192,000 who would be above 60 years of age. Apart from it being a financial burden on the Government, there will not even be enough land to build all the needed homes to house these unfortunate people. What is urgently required at present is the promotion of the concept that the care of the aged must rest more and more on the family unit in our society. If this concept can be successfully promoted, then we shall arrive at a stage when the aged will not be discarded by the younger set just because they have outlived their usefulness.

Sir, we may need Western technology, but we must fight against the total Westernisation of our minds and our responsibilities. For one thing, our moral and traditional values are not exactly the same as those of the Westerners. In the West there is a built-in response to the problem of old age. The parents take care of themselves. Here, being Asians, we have not arrived at that stage. Yet I personally feel that we should not follow them, if by doing so we have to sacrifice part of our traditional values of preserving the family unit.

I would like to propose that a campaign be mounted in the schools and other institutions to promote the concept of care and concern for one's elders among the young. A trust fund should also be set up by working members of the family for the non-working aged in their care. This could be a token contribution. It can be made compulsory, and the check-off system can be employed to siphon off a small percentage of their earnings towards this fund.

As I have said earlier, Sir, going by the projected figures which I have just quoted, we can expect bigger and more acute problems looming in the years ahead. In view of this, I feel that the Ministry of Social Affairs should take the lead in tackling these problems. At present the Ministry does not have a unit or division that deals with problems relating to the aging or the aged. I would like to suggest, therefore, that a Gerontology Unit be established by the Ministry to look into all aspects and problems of the aged and to make a research into the problems of old folks, One of its terms of reference should be to guide and coordinate the efforts of both Government and private organisations to ensure that there is the least duplication and maximum impact.

Sir, these measures should be implemented at the earliest possible moment. The society we produce will be a lonely one indeed if we do not seek to fathom and understand what loneliness is. In helping to ease the problem of loneliness of the aged we are, in effect, helping ourselves,

The Acting Minister for Social Affairs (Dr Ahmad Mattar): Sir, let me first reply to the hon. Member for Serangoon Gardens. My Ministry's thinking on the care of the aged is that, as far as possible, they should be looked after by their own children. Children who have the means to look after their own aged parents should be encouraged to do so, so that only the aged destitutes or those who for financial reasons cannot live with their children can be allowed to be accommodated in the homes for the aged.

Sir, based on the number of requests received by my Ministry, there seems to be a trend these days for the old folks to be abandoned by their children. Hon. Members in this House will agree with me that this practice would have been unthinkable among the older generation. We must, therefore, shame the younger generation, particularly those who have the means, into abandoning their aged parents in old folks' homes. We must fight this trend. We must reinforce our Confucianist, Islamic, Hindu or Christian ethics and encourage the extended family system unless, as I have stated earlier, financial circumstances are such that the children just cannot look after their aged parents.

As for the building of more homes for the aged, my Ministry plans to build one more home for the aged. At this point of time, the plan is still in its embryonic stage. In the meantime, the Government will continue to encourage community groups to set up homes for the aged within housing estates. This is in line with my Ministry's policy, naM31y, the aged should be encouraged to live within the community instead of living in some remote institutions.

In the last two years, the Social Welfare Department has managed to promote the setting up of 11 community homes for the aged in Housing Board estates. The Department is also encouraging voluntary welfare groups to set up homes to cater for the chronic sick.

The hon. Member for Serangoon Gardens also wants to know the kind of assistance the Government can give towards the establishment of homes for the aged which are not sited in HDB estates. Sir, the nature of Government's assistance depends on the nature of the problem. Let me quote two examples, First, the Sree Narayana Mission wanted to start a Home for the Aged Sick. The Social Welfare Department helped the Mission in leasing the reverted properties at Blocks 87 and 89, Canberra Road, from the Commissioner of Lands to establish the Sree Narayana Mission Home for the Aged Sick. 3.00 p.m.

In another instance, when the Home for the Aged Sick in Payoh Lai, off Upper Serangoon Road, was affected by a major development scheme, the Social Welfare Department successfully made representations to the Ministry of National Development for the Home to remain at the site and to be integrated with the redevelopment programme. Yet another example, Sir, is the Ling Kwang Home for the Aged which, I believe, is to be set up in Ang Mo Kio by the Bible Presbyterian Welfare Services, In this case my Ministry sought the assistance of the HDB to undertake the clearance of squatters at the site for the proposed Home.

The Social Welfare Department will also recommend that homes for the aged be granted the status of "an institution of public character", if such homes are run on a charitable basis and conform with the guidelines of the Department on the minimum standards of care. Financial assistance to the homes run by voluntary organisations will continue to be given by way of Public Assistance allowance to residents of such homes. As at February this year, a total of 530 residents in these voluntary homes received the allowances at current rates.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I fully agree with the hon. Member that homes for the aged should not just look after the physical needs of the residents. They should also provide social, recreational and other activities to enable the residents to lead a normal life. This is exactly the position in our Homes for the Aged today, where both indoor and outdoor recreational programmes are provided. Indoor activities include the making of handicrafts, reading, watching television, listening to radio, playing chess and so on. We even allow mahjongg to be played.

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan (Whampoa): Encouraging gambling!

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Gambling is strictly prohibited. Organised tours to places of interest in Singapore and occasional viewing of film shows at cinemas are examples of the outdoor activities organised for the aged. Talking of film shows, Sir, the hon. Member may be pleased to know that the Social Welfare Department has just received a donation of $6,000 for the purchase of equipment to screen film shows at the four Social Welfare Homes under the Department.

There are also ample opportunities for social interaction, as residents are allowed to receive visitors and to visit friends. Residents who are physically fit are encouraged to do simple chores, like gardening, under supervision. However, Sir, there are also old folks who wish to be left alone, For such residents who do not wish to participate in the activities organised, their wishes are well respected.

Sir, let me now come to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Bedok. If I understand correctly, the word "gerontology" refers to the scientific study of old age and its diseases. The Member should have made the suggestion to the Minister for Health for his consideration. However, as the Member has also mentioned the recreational needs of old people and how to keep them occupied, I shall attempt to answer him from my Ministry's point of view.

It is not correct for him to say that my Ministry does not have a unit which looks after the aged. The Social Welfare Department already has, what it calls, the Aged Services Unit. The priority of this Unit is to look after the destitute aged and to provide for their needs. The Unit has been encouraging community and voluntary organisations to set up community homes for the aged and the chronic sick. It maintains close liaison with other civic bodies which provide recreational and social activities for the aged. The Singapore Council of Social Service, which is a statutory body under the Ministry of Social Affairs, has a committee for the care of the aged. Studies have been conducted on the problems and needs of the aged and the resources available. The Council is also planning to have a Day-Care Centre for the Elderly. It is also looking into such matters as obtaining cinema concession rates for the aged.

The People's Association and the Citizens' Consultative Committees have various activities and projects to look after the aged. A good example is the Bukit Merah Old Folks' Club which, I believe, is run by young volunteers in coordination with the Welfare Sub-Committee of the Bukit Merah CCC. Then there is, of course, the Singapore Action Group of Elders (SAGE) which is under the active guidance of my Senior Parliamentary Secretary.

Close liaison is maintained between my Ministry and these various organisations which provide recreational and social services for the aged. Sir, at this point of time, I feel there is no need for my Ministry to duplicate the good services of the voluntary sector. Hence, there is no need for my Ministry to set up a gerontology unit as suggested by the Member for Bedok.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I was a bit puzzled over two points mentioned by the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs. First, he said he was against gambling and yet he advocated mahjongg. I may be wrong, but I always associate mahjongg with gambling. Secondly, he stated that there is a trend for the old to be abandoned in Singapore and yet I heard him distinctly say that he is trying to shame the young into abandoning the old. He should look at his text again or maybe look at the Hansard. A slip of the tongue perhaps, but indicative of what goes on in the mind!

Sir, I do agree with the Government's philosophy that we should encourage our young people to have filial piety. But how exactly is the Ministry of Social Affairs going about this process of educating our young people? People in Singapore seem to respond more to a combination of the carrot and the stick. Perhaps the Minister can tell us something about the policies that Government is planning in this respect. Are we, for example, giving more reliefs for the support of aged parents? Right now, it is $750 per year and I hope the Hon. Minister for Trade and Industry is listening, in case he is preparing next year's Budget.

Sir, the other point which I wish to raise is in connection with the promotion of community homes by the Ministry of Social Affairs in conjunction with voluntary bodies. I am familiar with such homes because a new one has been set up by the Methodist Church in Whampoa recently. But these homes are set up for the aged people who are still able and capable of caring for themselves physically, who are not chronically sick, not invalid nor need 8ttention by the bedside. Is his Ministry looking into the needs of such people, as there must be an increasing number of old people who need physical attention? I think the most dreaded thing about old age is not simply growing old but being unable to look after one's own bodily functions. Is there provision anywhere to help these people?

The Minister talks about building one more Home for the Aged and he seems to be happy that it is taking quite some time to be built. Will he tell us something more about the accommodation of this new home that is being planned? How many places are available? Will this new home cater for the category of old people which I have mentioned, namely, those people who are not able to look after themselves physically?

A further point which I wish to raise, Sir, is with regard to the social welfare allowances for the aged. Recently, the Government added another $20 per person. I think it was from $40 to $60. I would like the Hon. Minister to tell this House how his Ministry went about determining that $60 would be a sufficient minimum to keep body and soul together, whether for an aged person or for a destitute younger person. Will he enlighten this House?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, on the question of Social Welfare assistance, since the hon. Member for Kolam Ayer will be raising this matter under the appropriate Subhead, I would rather not answer the question now.

The hon. Member for Whampoa wants to know the details of the new Home for the Aged to be set up by the Social Welfare Department. As I mentioned earlier on, Sir, it is still in the embryonic stage, and I hope the Member knows what "embryonic stage" means.

The other point which the Member raised is about mahjongg being a form of gambling. It all depends on what one thinks of the game. If the Member wants to think of it as a form of gambling, then it is a form of gambling. So it depends on what goes on in the mind. Football is a good example. People go to the National Stadium either to watch football for the fun of it or to gamble on it. It all depends on what goes on in that little mind.

I am not quite sure, Sir, of the question which the Member raised on the physical needs of the aged. Perhaps the Member could repeat it. I was busy thinking of a suitable reply to his question on mahjongg. I might have missed the point,

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I certainly hope the Hon. Minister would never get to the stage where he cannot control his bodily functions!

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I still have not got the question.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, if I were to be explicit about those functions, you will rule me out of order. I am talking about the physical needs of old people who are unable to go to the toilet by themselves. They are unable to bathe themselves. Is that clear enough, Mr Minister?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, each home for the aged, whether it is being run by the Government, i.e. the Social Welfare Department, or whether it is being run by voluntary organisations, has a pool of voluntary nurses who help to look after the so-called physical needs of the aged particularly those who are non-ambulant. They are being attended to by these voluntary workers.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like the Hon. Minister really to visit those people who are sick to the point where they need to be cleaned up every two hours in the middle of the night. How does he expect these voluntary nurses and workers to look after these old people in this way? Is he aware of these realities? He is a young man. He does not know what is life. 3.15 p.m.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I visited all these homes when I first took the office of Minister for Social Affairs. I wonder if the Member for Whampoa could be more specific as to which home he is referring to. I am inclined to think that he is referring to the community home in his constituency. Am I right?

Dr Augustine Tan: No, Sir. My grandfather got sick three months ago. For three days and three nights, my grandmother looked after him. She is just three years younger than him. He is 79 years old. When he lost control of his bodily functions, it nearly killed my grandmother. She had to lift him up to put him in and out of bed, and had to clean him in bed. That was a terrible task. Are we providing for these people in this way? This is what I mean. Does the Hon. Minister know the sufferings of these old people?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Since the Member for Whampoa has brought up an actual case, I am now familiar with it, but I would rather not discuss it in this House. However, I will certainly look into the suggestion which he has just proposed. I am very familiar with the case of his grandfather. As I said, this is a very personal thing, and I do not think the Member for Whampoa wants me to discuss it here.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I do not recall the Hon. Minister having visited my grandfather. But I can arrange for such a visit at some appropriate time.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I do not have to visit his grandfather; I get reports.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, I would like to thank the Hon. Minister for his reply, but there is one further point of clarification that I would like to seek from him. This is in regard to the fund-raising activities of the community organisations and civic organisations that run homes for the aged. I understand there is a maximum imposed on the amount that can be raised for the provision of funds to run these homes. Can the Hon. Minister clarify this point?

The difficulty for many of these organisations is that in budgeting for a particular year they have to decide the amount of funds to be raised, but this amount is limited to a certain percentage of their annual budget. They cannot raise beyond that amount. So they have made representations to me saying that they would prefer to raise an amount over and above the annual budget, preferably, say, for three years in a row, so that they do not have to hold frequent fund-raising activities.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: I am aware of what the Member for Serangoon Gardens has just raised. In fact, the matter has been brought to my attention and I have referred it to the relevant authority, that is, the Ministry of Finance.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, I would like to thank once again the Hon. Minister for his reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Object Group 3310 (a) of Subhead Code WB-02 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, the purpose of moving this amendment is to seek information from the Minister. The Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS) has done a commendable job, especially the building of new mosques in Singapore. It has been well accepted by Muslim Singaporeans. As with all things in life, particularly so in Singapore, MUIS cannot afford to rest on its laurels. I am sure it has no intention of doing so because it is quietly but surely gearing itself to meet the new demands of the Muslim public in Singapore. With the Hon. Minister in charge, I am sure these new demands must have been included in his forward-looking plans.

However, I would like to comment that MUIS should further strengthen its administration as well as public relations quickly. Will the Hon. Minister enlighten this House of the various plans that he may have for MUIS to better serve the Muslim public in Singapore?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: I would like to thank the Member for Telok Blangah for his kind words on the efforts of the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapore (MUIS) in looking after the interest of Muslims in Singapore.

The Member for Telok Blangah has observed that MUIS should strengthen its administration as well as its public relations efforts. I agree with him that the present secretariat of MUIS needs to be strengthened. Towards this end, my Ministry recently commissioned the Management Services Department (MSD) of the Ministry of Finance to:

(a) examine the organisational framework of the secretariat of MUIS with .a view to recommending a reorganisation, if found necessary;

(b) to recommend a suitable staff structure for the MUIS;

(c) to recommend improved work procedures in the secretariat.

The MSD has completed its study and has made a number of recommendations. These include increasing the complement of senior staff in the secretariat, especially in the areas of finance and public relations, and reorganisation of the sections within the MUIS. The report of the MSD is now being considered by the Ministry of Finance, and we expect a decision to be made on the recommendations soon.

I am conscious of the need for MUIS to improve its public relations effort to keep the Muslim public informed of its work. So far MUIS has been constrained by the lack of suitable staff in the ares of public relations. We hope that with the additional staff recommended by the MSD, its public relations effort will be improved significantly. This effort will also be directed towards strengthening its relations with other Muslim organisations overseas.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I must thank the Hon. Minister for his reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff (Kolam Ayer): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code WC-02 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, last year $7,200 was spent on the Family Service Centre Pilot Project. It was a pilot project. My interpretation of a pilot project is that it should be followed by the actual project. May I be enlightened about this matter, please?

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I wonder whether the Hon. Minister would be kind enough to give further information on this pilot project as regards its objectives; its success criteria, and whether these success criteria have been met?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I will answer the Member for Kolam Ayer first. The Family Service Centre in MacPherson Estate was started as a three-year pilot project in June 1977. UNICEF assisted the pilot project by sponsoring four staff members until May 1979, and thereafter it was entirely funded by Government. The pilot project will end in two months' time, i.e. in May 1980.

The Family Service Centre Pilot Project has been evaluated by a team from UNICEF. The project was assessed as successful and its continuance was recommended by the evaluation team. My Ministry and the Ministry of Finance are now examining the feasibility of continuing the Family Service Centre Project on a permanent footing. Pending a firm decision, the financial provision for the project has been deleted from the Estimates for Financial Year 1980.

For the benefit of our young Member for Telok Blangah, the Family Service Cent. e is the pioneer in the use of what sociologists term "the integrated social work approach". Most social agencies provide an individualised service to clients and make limited use of group work, and even more limited use of community work methods. Thus, the Family Service Centre not only provides what it calls "crisis service" to members of the community in need of such services, but also arranges for community involvement through the use of befrienders to assist families with long term problems. So, side by side with the crisis service, preventive and developmental work is also undertaken. Outreach to children, youths and adults of various degrees of disadvantage and vulnerability is also undertaken.

The hon. Member for Telok Blangah has also asked for certain success criteria and he wants to know whether these success criteria have been met. According to the information I have received, the Pilot Family Service Centre at Balam Road in MacPherson Estate has been classified as successful. For instance, volunteers are able to organise and implement programmes for themselves, such as training and recreational programmes, and also programmes to meet clients' needs in the community. Children in the area show less propensity towards vandalism, fights, selfishness and uncooperativeness. Children in the area show greater interest in learning and are more able to occupy their time in meaningful activities. Parents become more aware of their children's developmental needs. Youths show greater motivation to study and several premature school-leavers have gone back to studies. More youths are contributing a share of their income to the families and youths in the area show diminished anti-social behaviour traits and improvement in the relationship with family members. These are some of the criteria which have been met.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff: Sir, in view of the very good answer from the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

3.30 p.m.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code WC-06 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, whenever the Budget is being considered in this august Chamber, four categories of people deserve our utmost concern. They are the pensioners, the disabled, the aged, and the less fortunate, especially those receiving public assistance. I must congratulate the Minister for Finance for taking care of our pensioners last year. But, unfortunately, this year he has forgotten to include them,

As far as the Ministry of Social Affairs is concerned, they even took the initiative of asking the Minister for Finance to increase the rate of public assistance from $40 and $100 to $60 and $120 respectively. I appreciate the initiative of the Ministry but the rising cost of living is such that I find it difficult to really imagine how these people, especially those whose husbands have passed away and who have to look after the household and the children, can manage with that meagre sum.

The Minister may say that if we need more money, then we must pass the buck to the Finance Minister. But let me assure the Minister that during our journey to Chine, besides a sense of camaraderie, I find that the Finance Minister is very compassionate, reasonable and concerned and, at times, fatherly. In fact, when the plight of the flat-owners in Lagoon View was mentioned and when my colleague, the hon. Member for Whampoa suggested that instead of deducting $600 per month from their salaries, the Minister was even willing to consider reducing the rate to $300 per month. I would suggest that if the Minister for Social Affairs is all that concerned, he should put forward the idea and to please propose a more reasonable sum, especially to those recipients whose husbands have passed away.

I have just read a very disturbing report today on a book titled: The Psychotherapy of Aging. Having read the report, I found there are three areas which concern me. I have got complaints about attempted suicide from at least a couple who are receiving public assistance. Let me read the findings of The Psychotherapy of Aging which are found in one country. Maybe they are not very similar but there is some similarity. The report says that the tendency to suicide is greatest among those above 40 years of age. I am 40 myself. It also states that:

'Physical disabilities and illnesses also tend to increase chances of suicide, especially for those over 60. Lower economic-strata men are also more likely to commit suicide than upper or middle class men.'

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Sir, during the Chinese festive season every year, community leaders and charitable organisations in almost every constituency organise Welfare Day for the aged and the needy people who are recipients of financial aid from the Social Welfare Department. On such an occasion, food hampers and ang pows donated generously by the public-spirited and social-minded constituents are distributed to these needy people.

In the light of these circumstances, would the Hon. Minister also be kind enough to consider granting an annual bonus payment as an extra financial aid to these needy people during the yearly Chinese festive season?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, the hon. Member for Kolam Ayer feels that the Public Assistance allowances, in spite of the new increases, are still inadequate. In terms of cash, of course, they are not enough. They are not intended to be, anyway, First of all, Sir, I would like to emphasize here that Social Welfare cannot take upon itself the entire task of helping people overcome their misfortunes or to cope with these disadvantages in life. Social Welfare can only offer assistance in the occasional case of overt need. The important thing to remember is that we should guard ourselves against the introduction of a supportive Public Assistance scheme which would deprive people of any incentive to take up gainful employment. So, not intended as unemployment, retirement or disability payments, Public Assistance allowances are therefore given only to those who have no means of support. There will always be a number of persons who are without families, friends or means of support and who are incapable of looking after themselves because of some disabling physical or mental condition.

Just for the information of the House, of the 5,356 cases who are to-date receiving Public Assistance allowances from the Social Welfare Department, 4,420 or 83% of them belong to persons who are 60 years old and above. There are also a number of factors which ought to be borne in mind when considering whether or not current rates of Public Assistance allowances from the Government are adequate.

Firstly, people who for one reason or another cannot take on regular employment can, and generally do, find part-time employment. In other words, recipients of Public Assistance are free to earn extra income from casual work. Examples of casual work I am referring to are washing of clothes in the case of female recipients, dish washing, piece-rate sewing or working as hawker assistants.

Secondly, recipients of Public Assistance also receive other non-cash benefits, such as free medical treatment and remission of school fees and receipt of free textbooks for their school-going children.

Thirdly, recipients of Public Assistance also receive supplementary assistance, either in cash or in kind, from voluntary charitable and religious organisations.

The Social Welfare Department administers a number of private charitable funds from which needy people can get additional money and among them are the Singapore Chinese Chamber of Commerce and Industry Welfare Grant, Lee Foundation Grant, the Silver Jubilee Fund and the Charity Box Fund.

The Member for Kolam Ayer also wants to know the sort of assistance given to widows with children. Widows with dependent children who are in need of financial assistance are given Public Assistance allowances. As far as possible, they are assisted by the Social Welfare Department to become self-supporting, and their cases are reviewed periodically.

On the suggestion by the Member for Changi that my Ministry considers an extra bonus payment be given to Public Assistance recipients during the festive season, I can only say that I have taken note of the suggestion.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, in the context of Singapore where we have got no natural resources and everyone has to work to earn a living, no one can quarrel with the philosophy of Government that every able-bodied person should work. But, Sir, at the same time, from the very figures given by the Minister for Social Affairs, 83% of the 5,000-plus recipients are over the age of 60 and presumably these are people who have got no children who are able to support them, or else they have been abandoned by their children. The question is: would these people who are destitute, who are unable to work either full-time or part-time, be able to live on the minimum subsistence level with the allowance given by his Department?

He mentioned a number of voluntary organisations which do give welfare grants, But is there a systematic attempt by his Ministry to monitor the needs of these aged people to ensure that whatever is given by his Ministry, in conjunction with whatever these people are able to get from other voluntary organisations, adds up to a total which ensures them a minimum subsistence level? I think that surely must be the critical concern of his Ministry. We have no quarrel in respect of the other categories of people he mentioned, i.e. there are people in other countries who are passengers and dependent upon the state for sustenance when they could jolly well go out and earn a living. We have no quarrel over that particular issue. But for people who are genuine destitutes, are they being adequately taken care of?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Chairman, Sir, the destitutes among the 60-year olds I have just quoted, and those who for genuine hardship reasons could not live with their children would be in the homes for the aged. If they are in the Government homes for the aged, e.g. the Woodlands Home for the Aged or the Woodstock Home, then Government ensures that they are well looked after, For those in homes run by voluntary organisations financial assistance (as I have explained in my answer to the Member for Serangoon Gardens) is given by Government to the inmates of these homes by way of Public Assistance. And as I have indicated earlier on, as at February 1980, some 530 cases in such homes have received Public Assistance allowances from the Social Welfare Department.

As for the other recipients, there are ways and means which ensure them a minimum subsistence level. The 'welfare' funds administered by the Social Welfare Department are used to make-up, so to speak, in order to make sure that the amount of money which a recipient receives is up to the minimum subsistence level, provided it is a genuine case of hardship and the person can turn to nowhere else for additional money or he is not employable due to physical disability and so on. 3.45 p.m.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, to my knowledge, of the four voluntary funds mentioned by the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs, I have only heard of one of them, that is, the Silver Jubilee Fund, and that applies only to people who are above a certain age; I do not know what it is, it may be 65 or 70 years and above.

The other point that must be taken note of is that these sums are not additive in nature. In other words, a destitute person cannot expect to get from all the four funds in addition to the social welfare grant. I hope he does not intend to give the impression that these destitute people are very well taken care of because there are so many funds handing out money. I would like the Minister to supply this House with a firm figure. Let us take a representative case of an aged destitute, who is perhaps single. What is the maximum amount that person can expect from all the sources of funds added together?

On the second point, the Minister said that old people who are destitute or abandoned by their children are automatically admitted into the homes for the aged. This is not true. I have come across a number of cases in Whampoa where the children have abandoned the old people. It is difficult to make out a case for these old people because in some cases their children are quite well off. Their children simply lacked filial piety. If the Government's attitude is that if the children do not take care of them, then the Government will also not care about these people because it wants people to have filial piety. In the meantime what is going to happen to these old people? Somebody must take care of them. That is the point which I wish him to note.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, in fact, there are two other funds which I have not mentioned. There are altogether six funds which are being administered by my Ministry. Of course, a recipient of Public Assistance cannot hope to get additional money from all the six funds. The Social Welfare Department monitors the situation to ensure that the funds are fairly disbursed.

There is also coordination between the Social Welfare Department and the other charitable welfare organisations to see that the money from these organisations are fairly distributed to the recipients and that no one recipient gets more than another. If he wants a specific case, I am afraid I cannot tell him the specific amount off-hand now. I am not a walking computer, If the Member wants, I can supply the figures at some other time, not now.

As for 60-year olds who have been abandoned by wealthy children, they will, of course, not be admitted to any of the homes for the aged. That is for sure. As I have said earlier on, homes for the aged are meant for those people who are either destitute or cannot be supported by their children for financial reasons.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I am just curious to know what the Hon. Minister thinks would be the minimum required to sustain body and soul for one destitute.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Personally, I think about $100 p.m. is sufficient for a single person.

Dr Augustine Tan: I shall be happy to quote the Hon. Minister in the future.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff: Sir, I would like to know if it is possible for the Minister to give a specific reply in the case of a man who passed away, leaving a widow and three children. How much money or assistance will she be given? Is it $200 or $300 per month? Can he give some figures for the information of the House?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, a widow with three children, that is, a four-person household, would be entitled to a maximum of $120 under the Public Assistance scheme. That is the new rate. Of course, the widow can apply for additional funds from other sources.

The Member for Whampoa has asked me what I think is sufficient for a single destitute person. Now the Member for Kolam Ayer wants to know what is sufficient for a four-person family. Let me do a little bit of arithmetic now. Sir, personally I think $200 would be sufficient.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff: Sir, I must say that if a man leaves behind a widow with two or three children living in a three-room flat, the total expenses would be around $300 or $400 a month. If the amount of public assistance is $120, it would be troublesome for the poor widow who may be illiterate to go from one organisation to another for further funds. Another point is this. The total provision for public assistance is only $4.5 million. I am quite sure that, with an affluent society like Singapore, we can increase that figure.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, if a widow with three children is receiving Public Assistance, she should not, in the first place, be living in a three-room flat because of the expenses involved. She should be able to adjust herself accordingly. The Member has suggested that the rates for Public Assistance should be revised further. We will do this, of course, perhaps once in three or four years. The present rates were only revised this year. The previous revision was in 1976. We will review the rates periodically to adjust ourselves with time.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff: Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I just wish to make one comment. If a man leaves behind his widow and children who are living in a three-room flat, it may take about two or three months before they can move to another flat or to rent a one-room flat, I am therefore concerned about the period of two, three or even four months during which the widow has to adjust to the new situation and environment. How is she going to get immediate employment with all these problems? These are the social problems we have to face. I would still say that for an affluent country like Singapore, we can afford to make a bigger provision than $4.5 million. The Minister may perhaps want to discuss this idea with the Minister for Finance.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code WD-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to seek an assurance from the Hon. Minister. Currently about 60% of the population in Singapore live in high-rise flats, and more will be living in high-rise flats in the near future. With this changing scenario, I am sure the Singapore Fire Service must have examined the future needs and have accordingly geared itself to cater for any high-rise fire.

Sir, I am not for one moment suggesting that we should have fires. I do not like to have fires just to test the capabilities of our Fire Service. In fact, in this respect, preven- tion is definitely better than cure. Nevertheless, I remember a saying, and I quote:

'Trust in God, but still tie your camels securely outside before going into the mosque to pray.'

For this reason, could the Hon. Minister enlighten the House as to the steps that have been, are being and will be taken to gear our Fire Service to meet the new challenges ahead?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, as the Member for Telok Blangah has rightly pointed out, we should not have fires before we can test the capabilities of the Fire Service. Before I inform the House of the measures taken by the Singapore Fire Service in preparing itself for the new challenges ahead, let us first examine the state of buildings in Singapore,

Sir, Building Regulations in Singapore require that high-rise buildings should be structurally sound and safe against fire. The use of fire resistants and non-combustible materials is insisted upon so that fire-spread will be minimised. The HDB flats, in which the majority of the population already live, are constructed in such a way that they are safe. Commercial and industrial activities are not allowed in HDB flats. I have just checked with my colleague, the Minister for National Development who confirms that the use of charcoal or wood for cooking in HDB flats is also prohibited. Staircases in HDB flats are made of concrete and are not enclosed so that smoke cannot build up to impede access. For other high-rise buildings which contain more combustible materials, or which have central airconditioning systems that would enhance the spread of smoke through airconditioning ducts, stricter measures are enforced. These include the installation of automatic sprinklers, fire and heat detectors, fire-lifts, ventilated lobbies and internal water supply systems.

Now I shall deal with measures taken by the Singapore Fire Service to meet the challenges ahead. The Singapore Fire Service has a contingent plan which will enable the Service to call upon the RSAF helicopters to rescue people trapped on rooftops in the rare event that an evacuation procedure is necessary. A Search and Rescue Squad has been formed, and hitherto 75 men have been trained to carry out search and rescue work at major high-rise fires. These men are trained to use a wide variety of rescue aids and tools and in advanced rope-work. They are subjected to regular physical exercises and simulated rescue work to maintain their fitness and ability. 4.00 p.m.

The Singapore Fire Service has also set up a High-Rise Fire-Fighting Unit. In fact, this Unit was formed in 1976 when the Ministry of Finance approved manpower posts for its establishment. This High-Rise Fire-Fighting Unit in the Singapore Fire Service carries out regular inspections of the fire-fighting facilities in commercial and other high-rise buildings. These inspections cover tests on wet rising mains for static pressure and weight of water output, sample tests on fire-detecting heads to see that they are working, sample tests on hose reels for water flow and leaks, tests on fire-lifts, inspections of lobbies and fire-doors for smoke tightness, and detection of unauthorised structural changes.

In 1979, Sir, 2,220 such tests involving 220 high-rise buildings were conducted by the Unit. The Unit also collects information on each high-rise building, its water supply system, the means of access and exits, the location of fire-lifts, staircases and other information useful for fire-fighting. For each high-rise building, the collected information is compiled into an operation manual which serves as a reference book should a fire have to be fought in that building. Simulated fire-fighting exercises are conducted weekly. Officers and men are sent to high-rise buildings every Monday to practise drills on how to tackle a fire in that building. In this way, Sir, they familiarise themselves with the building lay-out and the fire-fighting equipment it has. The High-Rise Fire-Fighting Unit also works with the management of a building to draw up evacuation plans. These plans are then tested by conducting actual evacuation exercises, In 1979, nine such evacuation exercises were held. Another 15 have been planned for this year.

As far as HDB flats are concerned, fire-fighting and evacuation exercises are not conducted as regularly as in the case of high-rise commercial buildings. This is because HDB blocks are built more or less of standard patterns and the drill worked out for one block can be adopted in other blocks. But this does not mean that the Fire Service ignores the HDB estates completely. On the contrary, from time to time, the Service carries out demonstration exercises in HDB buildings, showing how evacuation and rescue will be effected. The Search and Rescue Squad also undergoes exercises in selected HDB blocks as part of their training.

The prevention of fires in high-rise buildings also depends on the people living and working in them. The Fire Service takes great pains to train the occupants of high-rise buildings in fire prevention and the rudiments of fire-fighting. Last year, some 9,000 persons from various high-rise buildings in Singapore attended courses and evacuation exercises conducted by the Service.

In addition, Sir, a National Fire Prevention Campaign is held every year to spread the message that people can prevent fires by taking relatively simple precautions. All these measures are designed to prevent or to minimise the risk of fire outbreaks. At the same time, the Fire Service has taken steps to ensure that fires which do occur are dealt with effectively. The Service has drawn up plans for the construction of fire stations within or in the vicinity of high-rise housing estates. Hon. Members would have noticed that funds have been provided in the next financial year for the construction of two new fire stations. The new station at Upper Changi Road will cover Bedok and Marine Parade Housing Estates. The second station will serve Ang Mo Kio New Town. The Fire Service's plan is to have, eventually, 15 fire stations that will cover the whole island. The ultimate objective is to reduce the average response time to a fire to within five minutes so that a fire in its incipient stage could be brought under control before it spreads.

Sir, I hope the hon. Member for Telok Blangah is satisfied with the assurances I have given.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Mr Speaker, Sir, I must thank the Hon. Minister for his lengthy and detailed assurances. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead Code WE-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to speak on some aspects of sports promotion in Singapore. I would like initially to congratulate the Ministry of Social Affairs and the Singapore Sports Council for its program me of sports promotion over the last few years. With its programme of sports promotion and the building of facilities in the years to come, I am reasonably sure that we shall be building within Singapore a generation of sports loving, healthy and active people.

At the moment, the promotion of sports appears to lie mainly within the ambit of the Singapore Sports Council. I think there is a need to extend this role further and to give as much assistance as possible to the national sports associations. I am also aware that there are various individuals, private enterprises, Government statutory boards, the People's Association, and community centres which play very definite and important roles in the overall sports programme.

Sir, in respect of the role that national sports associations can play, there is one area which I would like to seek the comment of the Minister for Social Affairs. This is with regard to the question of building national sports associations' centres. I have in mind just now the plan of the Singapore Squash Rackets Association in wanting to build its own clubhouse and courts. Likewise, I know for a fact that the Singapore Lawn Tennis Association would also wish to embark upon a similar venture, to build its club premises and also to build courts. This would complement the role that is presently played by the Singapore Sports Council. I am sure other sports associations - volley ball, basket ball, table tennis and many others - would also want very much to have similar facilities. The question is: how does one raise the necessary funds to build these centres? At this juncture, I think one can fall back upon the example of the construction of community centres. It may be worthwhile for the Ministry of Social Affairs to consider giving a kind of subsidy along similar lines. I am happy that I am raising this subject when the Minister for Finance is here. And from my recent experiences, I gather that he is a fairly sympathetic man.

Sir, I am afraid that the reply from the Minister for Social Affairs will be a one-sentence answer, and therefore I seek to use this opportunity to get to the more relevant authorities through the Minister. I know for a fact also that the Hon. Minister for Trade and Industry is a budding tennis player, a dabbler in volley ball and, without doubt, potentially a great basket ball player.

Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin: Sir, thank you for allowing me to speak. First of all, I would like to support the views expressed by the Member for Kim Song. Earlier we were talking a lot about the problems of the aged, and I am afraid I have to bring this up again.

The Singapore Sports Council, Sir, has been successfully pursuing the Sports for All policy since 1973. Its programme has been in the main geared for youths and the able-bodied, I would like to suggest that they now also look into the possibility of coming up with a few programmes specially for senior citizens.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, I must give credit to the Member for Kim Seng for reading my mind. My simple answer to his question is "No". The Government is not without reason for being firm on this. Unlike the building of community centres for which a definite scheme has been set up by the Government through the People's Association, the Government, on the other hand, does not have a similar scheme for the building of clubhouses for national sports associations in Singapore. Knowing the current thinking of Government, I do not think such a scheme will be set up - not for a very, very long time.

Sir, there are altogether 47 national sports associations in Singapore today. It is not possible for Government to extend financial assistance to them, even to the two associations quoted by the hon. Member for Kim Seng - the Singapore Squash Rackets Association and the Singapore Lawn Tennis Association - particularly if the financial assistance sought by these national sports associations is for the purpose of building their clubhouses. The Singapore Sports Council is charged with the responsibility of building and maintaining sports facilities for the general public and it will continue to build these facilities in accordance with its Master Plan.

Besides the SSC, the Government, through its network of community centres, is literally working hand in hand with the People's Association, the community leaders and the people of the constituencies concerned to provide facilities for tennis, squash, badminton, basketball, and sepak takraw in the various community centres. The hon. Member's new community centre is a case in point. I believe his new community centre will be the first centre in Postal District 3 to have tennis courts. Sir, the Government is already providing sufficient, and more important, Sir, decentralised sports facilities to satisfy the demands of sports-conscious Singaporeans from all walks of life. 4.15 p.m.

However, lest the impression be given that the Government does not help financially the national sports associations at all, let me say, Sir, that the Government does assist them. Through the Singapore Sports Council, subsidies are granted to selected national sports associations, particularly those national sports associations which have mass appeal. They are being provided with subsidies for coaching and other courses; for preparation and training of competitors for overseas sports meets; and, to a limited extent, for sending participants to overseas competitions. For example, in the Financial Year 1979, Sir, 22 national sports associa- tions received these subsidies. The SSC also helps national sports associations in other ways. For example, sports associations may rent office space, at concessional rates, at Sports House, at Rutland Road. Sports associations also enjoy tax exemptions for donations which are made to them through the Singapore Sports Council.

As for the suggestion by the hon. Member for Bedok that the SSC should also look after the interest of senior citizens, I will certainly pass on his suggestion to the Singapore Sports Council to look into it.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I am not at all surprised with the reply. In fact, it was more than one sentence, but the rest sounded like an apologia for what he could not offer. I am not at any time saying the Government is not doing enough. In fact, I started by saying that the Government has done quite a lot. What I am suggesting is an extension of the sports programme, I believe that if one were to widen one's horizon, then it would be logical to extend facilities to sports associations which are also jointly helping the Ministry of Social Affairs, and especially the Singapore Sports Council, in the promotion of sports. At no time did I say that his Ministry was not doing its part in sports promotion. The argument that was advanced initially was that because there were no such programmes, therefore, we should not introduce this programme. To me,- that is no argument whatsoever. And to say that the People's Association can proceed with its own plans for community centre development just because there is such a programme in existence is something which I cannot ever understand its logic.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Chairman, Sir, as I have stressed earlier on, knowing the current thinking of Government, there will be no such plans to help national sports associations.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: My question is: will the Government consider such a scheme in the future? I am not asking for such plans now.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: If that is the case, I do not think the Government is that inflexible in its approach. What is "No" today may be "Yes" tomorrow. As hon, Members know, the Government reviews its policy periodically. A good example is the recent upward revision in the grants for new community centres. It is a very good example of Government's flexible approach.

Mr Ho See Beng (Khe Bong): Sir, if I am not mistaken when the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd was formed, one of its objectives was to obtain funds to support sports. If the Government now says that it is difficult to get enough money to assist sports activities, I wonder whether the Government can use the fund of the Singapore Pools (Pte) Ltd to subsidise sports activities?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, since the hon. Member for Khe Bong has directed his question to me, my answer is that I will take it up with the Minister for Finance.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I am pretty happy with the answer given by the Minister, particularly with the concession in his mind that the Government is fairly flexible. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $34,009,870 for Head W ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates,

The sum of $4,716,580 for Head W ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I shall now deal with the remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement. In respect of the Main Estimates, they are Heads B, C, D, E, F, G, H, S, V and Y.

I propose to take those heads of expenditure en bloc.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Main Estimates on page 27 of Paper Cmd 4 of 1980 stand part of the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1980 to 31st March, 1981," put and agreed to.

The Chairman: In respect of the Development Estimates, they are Heads C, E, S and V.

I propose to take those heads of expenditure en bloc

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Development Estimates on page 28 of Paper Cmd 4 of 1980 stand part of the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1980 to 31st March, 1981," put and agreed to.

Question. "That the sum of $2,988,876,790 shall be supplied to the Government under the hoods of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1980 to 31st March, 1981, contained in Paper Cmd 4 of 1980," put and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $3,616,633.460 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1980 to 31st March, 1981, contained in Paper Cmd 4 of 1980," put and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

The Minister for Trade and Industry (Mr Goh Chok Tong): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply have come to certain resolutions.

First Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $2,988,876,790 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1980 to 31st March, 1981, contained in Paper Cmd 4 of 1980."

Second Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $3,616,633,460 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1980 to 31st March, 1981, contained in Paper Cmd 4 of 1980."

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolutions."

Question put and agreed to.

Resolutions accordingly agreed to.

Mr Speaker: I think it will be a good idea to take the Suspension now. I suspend this Sitting and will take the Chair again at 4.55 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.25 p.m. until 4.55 p.m. Sitting resumed at 4.55 p.m