MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1981 TO 31ST MARCH, 1982

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [1st Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.45 p.m.

The Chairman: Main and Development Estimates of Singapore for the financial year 1st April, 1981 to 31st March, 1982, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1981. For convenience, I shall take the totals for each head of expenditure in the Main Estimates and the Development Estimates as they appear in the last columns of the schedules of Estimated Expenditure under the Main Estimates and under the Development Estimates on pages 21 and 22 respectively, of Paper Cmd. 9 of 1981.

I shall deal first with the heads of expenditure in respect of which amendments stand on the Order Paper Supplement.

Head H -

Mr Goh Chee Wee (Boon Lay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head H be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead HA-04 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, may I have your permission to speak also on my next amendment?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, while the Government has made a commendable effort to economize on the use of manpower by cutting down 465 redundant posts, we see the creation of 18 posts for the Professionals Information and Placement Unit. There is also a provision of $1 million for this programme under the Development Estimates.

First, I suppose this Professionals Information and Placement Unit, unlike the Ministry of Labour's Employment Service, is not for the registration and placement of unemployed engineers, accountants or retrenched Government doctors and lawyers who cannot find alternative employment. This is meant to attract overseas talent to come to work in Singapore. In view of the investment on hardware and the commitment on the recurrent cost, I hope the House can be provided with more information relating to the objectives, the targets and the modes of operation of this Unit.

I would like to know, in particular, Sir, in what way would the Unit go about in identifying and attracting the professionals, how far and how wide are we going to cast our net, how many overseas talents we hope to attract through this Unit, and how effective our effort will be.

The Minister for Trade and Industry and Minister for Health (Mr Goh Chok Tong): Sir, I have been asked by the Prime Minister to reply on his behalf.

From experience, the Public Service Commission found that many overseas graduates and professionals who are keen to work in Singapore do not know where to apply for suitable jobs, how to go about applying for Employment Pass and what the living conditions in Singapore are. The functions of the Professionals Information and Placement Service (PIPS) are to assist and to facilitate such graduates and professionals from overseas, both Singaporeans and foreigners, by advising them on job opportunities, accommodation, education for the children, immigration procedures and so on. To do this job, PIPS needs a computer to maintain records of such persons so that they can be referred to the appropriate employers, both public and private.

Another function of PIPS is to identify the highly talented graduates and professionals from overseas with a view to attracting them to work in Singapore. This is done mainly through the Career Advisory Officers of overseas universities with the assistance of our embassies abroad. The target countries are the traditional English-speaking countries. As far as numbers are concerned, the more talented people we can attract to Singapore the better. There is, therefore, no upper limit on targets.

The breakdown of the Development Estimates for this Unit is as follows: purchase and installation of a computer system, $750,000: cost of office renovation of PIPS, $232,000; cost of office equipment and furniture, $74,000.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $16,487,960 for Head H ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $1,000,000 for Head H ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head U -

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead UE-03 of the Main Estimates.*

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Dr Lau Teik Soon.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to seek clarification and to offer a suggestion.

The People's Association (PA) has made a great deal of positive contribution to the promotion of mass participation in cultural, social, educational, youth and other community activities. The community centre is the focal point of many community activities in the constituency. It is said that no matter how wonderful the hardware is, without the "live-ware" or the people, the system will not be effective, let alone efficient. Therefore, no matter how efficient, dynamic and forward-looking the community centre Management Committee members are, without the executive arm, the community centre would not function at the most efficient level. This executive arm is made up of dedicated, unassuming and hardworking Organizing Secretaries or Assistant Organizing Secretaries who are the permanent staff employed by PA. They have to work at odd hours from 2.30 p.m. to 10.30 p.m. with virtually no holidays throughout the year. In addition, they may have to come during certain mornings to participate and assist in any community projects organized by the various committees attached to the community centre. Furthermore, for new generation community centres, in order to serve the residents better, these community centres are open on Sundays and public holidays from 9.30 a.m. to 10.30 p.m.

It is, therefore, not uncommon to find that not many people want to work for PA in the community centres. Many community centres are shorthanded or could not find the right complement of staff to man them. In this light, would the Hon. Prime Minister in-form the House as to what steps are being taken to recruit and, more importantly, to retain these staff in the community centres? I understand that the remuneration for such important staff in the field is less than adequate.

Sir, the very logo of PA signifies the blending of our four major races together to help promote cultural, social and recreational community activities. Language is a subject that touches the hearts of many people and is held especially dear by those who speak it. I realize that in many instances it may be expedient or practical or even economical for PA to produce publications in only two of our four official languages. Since language is such an important aspect of our cultural heritage and is held dear by many, if not all Singaporeans, would it not be better if PA endeavours to produce certain important publications, at least, in all our four official languages? Would it not be better also if some of the major functions organized by PA show this sensitivity by having more than just two official languages used?

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): Sir, the People's Association was established in the early 1960s with the major function of providing activities to mould our citizenship, and over the years, they have been very successful in organizing social, recreational and educational activities. Today, however, there are other community organizations, particularly the Residents' Committees, which are involved in the same task of moulding good citizenship and of providing social, recreational and cultural activities. Over and above these community organizations, there is the Citizens' Consultative Committee which is not only responsible for providing for the well-being of the physical environment but also participates in the activities of the Management Committee of the community centre as well as those of the RCs.

What I would like to ask the Hon. Prime Minister is whether or not there is today a confusion as to the area of responsibility between the three major community organizations, namely, the CCCs, the CCMCs and the RCs. Aside from confusion, I also fear that conflict may arise because of competition for financial resources and manpower. I would like the Hon. Prime Minister to clarify this.

In the effort to provide facilities for the community centres, the Citizens' Consultative Committees of the various constituencies have played a major role. In fact, in some constituencies, the CCC members form the bulk of the Building Fund Committee. I would like to cite, for example, the case of my constituency where practically all the members of the Building Fund Committee come from the CCC. What I would like to raise with the Hon. Prime Minister is whether or not some recognition could be given to the other community organizations which have contributed in the way of providing or raising funds for the construction of the building. 3.00 p.m.

Specifically, a problem has arisen over the question of whether the CCC sign should be constructed or located at a prominent spot in the community centre. Here, I would like to appeal to the People's Association to adopt a more accommodative approach, be less selfish and less petty and allow the CCC to construct their sign on the exterior wall of the building. The objective of the People's Association has always been to promote good citizenship and I think the People's Association should show an example by demonstrating its goodwill to other community organizations.

The Senior Minister of State, Prime Minister's Office (Mr Lee Khoon Choy): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah was very correct in appreciating the difficulties of the working conditions of the People's Association staff. I am very happy to hear that a Member of Parliament has publicly appreciated this fact and that he has described our Organizing Secretaries as being dedicated, unassuming and working at odd hours. Of course, we have made proposals to the Ministry of Finance to raise the salary of our staff since 1978, we only hope that the officials concerned with the public purse, particularly those dealing with the People's Association, are as appreciative as the Member for Telok Blangah.

As regards the printing of Anniversary souvenirs and banners, naturally we appreciate and understand the significance of our logo, i.e. giving equal treatment to all the four language streams. The Member for Telok Blangah has always been a very observant person, but on that day it seems that he saw only one banner. There were actually two banners outside the National Theatre, one in English and Chinese and the other in Malay and Tamil. Because of constraints of space, it was rather difficult to put up too many banners on the stage. If we were to put four languages in one banner, the lettering would be so small that it would not be significant. If we were to put up two banners, then they would block the film projection and other backdrops. The stage backdrop, however, was in two languages.

As for the printing of the Anniversary souvenir, it was the practice in the past to print it in all the four official languages in one big book. It comes to you like a bomb! However, we found that that practice was not practicable and also not economically viable. In the case of the 20th Anniversary souvenir, the purpose was to print it for the benefit of community leaders, Management Committee members and volunteers. According to our records, most of them are bilingual. They can read English and Chinese. Even among the leaders in the Management Committees, there are Malays and Indians who are conversant with English. The question is whether it is wise and prudent for the People's Association just to go through the ritual of printing its publications in four languages which is not economically viable. If we do that, it shows we are not flexible in the implementation of Government policy, We, therefore, printed it in only two languages.

If the Member for Telok Blangah can assure us that he can get a market for a publication in any language, we will be too glad to do a translation of the publication for him.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens raised two points, first, the role of CCCs, MCs and RCs and, secondly, the logo. I hope the two questions are not inter-related. To a certain extent this seems to reflect the feeling of some CCC members that they have been over-shone by the RCs who seem to be very active. If this is a reflection of the feeling of CCC members, then it may have some connection with the logo. In this case we understand that the CCC wanted to put a logo on the exterior wall of the community centre, a logo as big as that of the MC. Is it a sense of insecurity that prompted them to show that they still exist and want to be recognized? Psychologically, that may be the reason why they want to put up a logo.

We have always welcomed the CCCs, MCs or even the RCs to hold meetings in all our community centres. In fact, most of them do hold meetings in the community centres. We have also allowed many CCCs to put their logo outside the room which they occupy. After all, a logo is meant to show where you are. If you want to put up a logo as big as the MC's, then it will really create confusion. In the words of the Member for Serangoon Gardens, we will confuse the public as to who owns the building: is it the CCC or MC? The RCs will also want to have a big logo.

We appreciate very much the efforts made by the CCC leaders, particularly in the case of Serangoon Gardens where they were the main figures in raising funds. But there are also other organizations which have contributed towards the funds. So if all the organizations which had contributed towards the funds, want to put up their own logos, then the community centre will become a mad house. We will allow the CCC to have their own signboard outside their office. After all, it is the People's Association building and we must give prominence to the community centre. Normally we do not display the name of a committee outside a community centre building. The CCC is a committee. We have to stick to the rules. Even if the RC wants to have an office, it can put up a signboard outside their office. But we will not allow signboards outside a CC building showing "Residents Committee", "Citizens' Consultative Committee" or "Management Committee". The public will be very confused.

As for the role and functions of the CCC, MC and RC, there are, in fact, similarities. All of them are supposed to serve the constituency, help solve the problems of the residents, and promote goodwill among the people. Those are the similarities. Thus, it is inevitable that there will be some overlapping.

But let me come to the differences. The first difference is the scope of the territory covered, then the nature of the composition and the extent of their powers. The territorial scope of the CCC covers the whole constituency. The CCC comprises prominent leaders from all over the constituency. There may be a small number of members who do not reside or work in the constituency. But they are useful not only in their contribution towards funds but also in other ways. The CCC also looks after the physical environment and, in the case of rural constituencies, the CCC looks after lighting, drains or roads. Of course, in HDB areas there may be a conflict of interest with the RCs. But basically the CCCs are permitted to raise money, to have a scholarship fund or a welfare fund. They play a leading role in responding to campaigns by various Ministries and the National Day celebrations,

The Management Committee comprises ideally prominent leaders from the catchment area of that community centre. It will be ideal if all the members of MCs come from the catchment area, because they know the area better. Of course, by tradition and past association, there are some members in the CCC who are not residents in that catchment area. They are from other constituencies. The duty of the MC is primarily to run the community centre, to make the community centre a bee-hive or a second home for the residents in that catchment area; how to organize activities - social, educational, vocational, recreational, etc. - and how to draw the residents into the community centre, have an inter-action and promote good neighbourliness among the residents. Of course, they need to know the require- ments of that ares and find. the means to meet those requirements.

The Residents Committee's scope is limited to the respective zones of HDB flats it represents. No non-residents can be a member of the RC. They must come from that zone. They must live there. The scope of the RC's duty relates to living conditions, better lifts, security, good neighbourhood and organize picnics for residents in the zone. It is connected with the quality of life of the residents there.

I must say that until today the three organizations have worked rather harmoniously. In some areas some conflict is inevitable. I think the fundamental factor is attitude. If each organization takes an antagonistic attitude, and there is a Chinese saying, Hao da xi gong ( ) which means everyone wants to feel bigger than the other, and want to claim credit, then we can expect a lot of conflict, rivalry, friction and other problems. If one takes an attitude of comradeship, like members of a family and work as one, knowing one's boundaries and cooperate with one another, then they can be very complementary and supplementary. In this case I would suggest the formation, as has been done in some constituencies, of a steering committee in which the CCC, MC and RC will have representatives. They can thrash out their differences and discuss common problems and iron out whatever difficulties they may face. If they take this attitude, I think there should be no area of conflict and all can work very harmoniously together. 3.15 p.m.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I would just like to seek clarification from the Hon. Senior Minister of State. I believe the People's Association is now faced with the problem of staffing of Organizing Secretaries, especially in the community centres. In this respect, how much has been done to try to retain such staff? I remember, Sir, that there was a career development training programme for the staff and also certain basic qualifications have been prescribed for the post of Organizing Secretary. They have to undergo a stint of training and, after passing, they will be placed on a certain salary scale. I am told that the People's Association is having difficulty in recruiting such staff. I do not know whether the Hon. Senior Minister of State can elaborate on this.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: This is a very important question because unless we have a revision of salary, we are not only finding it difficult to retain the staff, but we will also find it most difficult to recruit staff. The Prime Minister mentioned yesterday about attracting good people to the political leadership. I think good leadership is not only rare in the political arena but also in community development areas. Unless we have attractive salaries to attract them, we are not going to have really good staff coming to serve as Organizing Secretaries.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, the Senior Minister of State has not touched on the development of staff as well as the required training to be given to applicants who aspire to be Organizing Secretaries.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: We do not insist on prior training. But we do recruit some staff from the schools who are interested in community work. And, for those whom we have recruited, we always find a chance to train them in the National Youth Leadership Training Centre at Buona Vista. They go through a certain leadership course. But this is not a pre-requisite.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: If that is the case and since salary is the attraction for those able and wanting to go into community work in the community centres, will the Hon. Senior Minister of State find a solution to the problem? I would suggest that PA and Ministry of Finance officials sit down together and have a heart-to-heart talk and thrash out these matters with a view to ensuring that there will be sufficient numbers of people who would man the community centres. I think community service development is an important area in our society.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: Members of Parliament appreciate the importance of the work of our Organizing Secretaries and other staff of the PA. Negotiations have been going on for donkey's years. We have not lost hope. We are still trying to negotiate and we only hope that the officials concerned will have the same spirit of appreciation which has been expressed by some Members of Parliament.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I must say that the Hon. Senior Minister of State has been most unfair to attribute to the CCC members the psychological reason for wanting to have the CCC logo on the building. Certainly, they do not have a sense of insecurity. The Hon. Senior Minister of State knows that some of the key leaders of the Serangoon Gardens CCC are professionals and successful businessmen. So how can they feel insecure?

The question really is that the CCC members feel that having contributed so much towards the construction of the building, their request for the logo to be put up should be acceded to. I take the point that the sign should not be as prominent, should not be as big -

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Should be bigger!

Dr Lau Teik Soon: I would like that, but I know that it is not possible. May I ask the Senior Minister of State whether it is permissible to put up the logo of the CCC - of a small size - on the exterior wall of the building? The point he has made is that the building belongs to the PA. After 20 years of existence, I think Singaporeans know that the community centres belong to the PA. And having the CCC logo in the community centre will not detract Singaporeans from that belief in any way.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: I can assure the Member for Serangoon Gardens that he can find a suitable place to put up the CCC logo.

An hon. Member: A small one!

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: The Member can put up a rather sizeable logo so long as it is not on the exterior wall. He can put it out- side the CCC office. Take, for instance, the National Theatre. It has been contributed by so many organizations. We have only "Panggong Negara". What happens if all the associations were to insist on putting even a small logo on the wall? It will be most confusing. That should not happen.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the request is for the CCC only and not for other community organizations

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: That does not prevent other organizations from taking the Member's case as a precedent and make the same request. Once we allow one, the other organizations which have donated or contributed to the building fund will also say, "What about me? Since I have done something, I also want my logo to be put up." It can be confusing. The best thing is for the Serangoon Gardens CCC to have a proper logo and put it outside their office.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, may I ask the Senior Minister of State whether in other constituencies there are such CCC logos and signs constructed on exterior walls of community centres?

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: There are a few, but they were put up during the olden days. Most of them are being demolished. We will not allow any new generation community centre to have that.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri (Kampong Ubi): Mr Speaker, Sir, from the reply given as to why the four languages were not used in the back-drop at the recent PA anniversary function, I am not too convinced. The People's Association is a very important association in terms of nation building and also in terms of national integration. It can be seen as a very good instrument for national integration.

I think, Sir, in a function of such importance where we have citizens from all walks of life, of different cultures and levels of education, of different sentiments, it would not be harmful to put a logo of that nature with four languages because these are the visible signs of national integration. A layman does not know very much about economics. To him, what he sees symbolizes certain things and the sentiments of every local citizen in terms of their attachments to the nation will be affected. So I believe that this little bit of economics could be spared against the importance of a high-level objective. In this case particularly, we, Members of Parliament, and especially myself, have had some unsalutary feedback as a result of seeing this logo in such a manner.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: Sir, is the Member referring to the logo on the stage and that it was not done in the four languages?

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: It is the backdrop which was in two languages.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: I have explained that we had two banners outside the building. If Members of Parliament do feel very strongly that on future occasions we must have four languages, we will take that into consideration. Perhaps even a logo without words should symbolize everything.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Mr Speaker, Sir, nowhere in my speech did I mention about a banner or a publication of the 20th anniversary souvenir. I was talking about it in general policy terms. But I remember a Malay saying which says: Siapa makan chili, dia merasa pedas.

However, in view of the Senior Minister of State's assurances and lucid answer, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (2)*. Mr Lai Tha Chai is not here, Mr Ho Kah Leong.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): ( In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead UE-03 of the Development Estimates.*

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Lai Tha Chai.

Sir, with the increase in the price of building materials and higher cost of labour, building a presentable community centre building nowadays needs at least $2 million. And with the various constituencies organizing their own building fund campaigns for the building of community centres, it becomes more and more difficult to raise funds. However, if it were not for the People's Association who are in sympathy with the efforts of community leaders to raise the subsidy, work on many community centre buildings in various constituencies would not have commenced in time.

Now, I would like to make an appeal to the Minister, on behalf of the people of Farrer Court and of Farrer Road Housing Estate in Ulu Pandan, to build a community centre. The Government should not be constrained by the restriction of granting aid only to one central or key community centre in each constituency, but should be flexible enough to give financial aid to the building of additional community centres, according to the conditions and circumstances obtaining in each individual locality. 3.30 p.m.

Let me explain about the conditions in Ulu Pandan in some detail. In Ulu Pandan, other than private estates and a few kampong areas, basically there are two medium-sized housing estates, namely, Ghim Moh Housing Estate and Farrer Road Housing Estate. They are about a few kilometres apart. One has to take two buses to go to the other estate. Three years ago community leaders in Ulu Pandan started a fund-raising campaign for the building of a key community centre. Because of their active efforts and with the support of the residents there as well as people outside the area, in a short span of time they succeeded in raising enough funds to build a community centre. So work started in Ghim Moh Estate. The new community centre is now operational. This centre has become a centre for recreational, educational and cultural activities of the residents in Ghim Moh Estate.

When community leaders wanted to raise funds to build a now community centre in Farrer Road Estate, although a plot of land was allocated, the Government did not give the same amount of aid for its building. I am given to understand that the highest subsidy given to a community centre, which is not a central or key centre in a constituency, is $110,000, i.e. $100,000 for the building and $10,000 for furniture. In other words, if a new community centre building costs $2 million, then the community leaders there would have to raise $1.9 million, which is not a small amount, and it is not what community leaders can contribute all by themselves. So if we were to put the burden on community leaders alone to shoulder, I do not think it is fair.

According to figures available to me, there are about 840 units of flats and 44 shops in this estate, although a few of them belong to Tanglin constituency. In Farrer Court Estate there are 680 units of HUDC apartments. Accordingly, the population should not be fewer than 10,000 people, not a few of whom are paying a high rate of income tax. According to the existing regulations for granting subsidy to community centres and if the boundary of Ulu Pandan constituency were to remain intact, then the people in Farrer Court and Farrer Estate would not be able to enjoy the facilities and services that can be provided by a community centre. On the one hand although they are paying taxes, on the other hand they cannot get the benefits of community services. Is this not unfair? I think there are other constituencies which are facing the same problem and difficulty. Therefore, the Government should give needy constituencies adequate aid to build community centres according to the circumstances of each case. I hope the Minister will elaborate on this matter.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: ( In Mandarin): The Member for Jurong is bringing up this matter on behalf of the Member for Ulu Pandan about a community centre in Farrer Road Housing Estate. We have a new policy on grants approved by the Cabinet in August 1979. It is that we can have only one key community centre for each constituency and that it will be eligible for an additional community centre only when the community has a population of about 30,000 people. So possibly the Member will have to wait until the residents in Farrer Road Estate have increased to 30,000 before the Government can consider building a community centre there. At present it is rather difficult to concede to his request.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I am not satisfied with the reply given by the Senior Minister of State concerned. I hope he will come to Farrer Road Housing Estate to see for himself that in this area there is no more land available for the development of more housing estates. Therefore, there is no possibility of this housing estate having more residents. The number of residents in this area will certainly not increase from 10,000 to 30,000 in the near future. Unless there is a redelineation of boundaries to augment this area, these 10,000 people will never have a chance to have a community centre of their own.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: ( In Mandarin): I will try to ask our staff to investigate to see under what sort of conditions we can consider this question. However, in Singapore there is rather a strange phenomenon. There are people who would take one or two kilometres to be quite a distance to travel. We should not take it in this way. If one or two kilometres is a long distance, then we tend to be a bit too lazy and that is rather a pity.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: ( In Mandarin): We have to clarify this matter because at present the bus system is not very perfect. In order to go from Farrer Road to Ghim Moh Estate, we have to take two buses. It would also take some time to wait for the bus. So we have to spend much time going from Farrer Estate to Ghim Moh Estate. This is not a case of laziness. It is not that the people I'm Farrer Estate are lazy which is a different matter.

We would like the Minister to reconsider this matter and, as he has said, send somebody there to have a look so that the Minister can bring the matter up with the Minister for Finance, who is also here, to get the funds to build a community centre in the Farrer Road Housing Estate.

Dr Wong Kwei Cheong (Cairnhill): Sir, there is a case of an inclusion of an old constituency, like Farrer Park, into Cairnhill. Before the inclusion, the Pek Kio Community Centre used to be a key centre. They have, in fact, raised funds to build a new community centre. After the inclusion of Farrer Park into Cairnhill, it lost its key centre status, although they have already raised the funds. I think such community centres should be given special consideration and not cast aside as a non-key centre.

Mr Lee Khoon Choy: Since they have already raised the funds for the centre, we would like to know what is the total amount of the fund. I hope the Member will give me more details so that we can consider how to use the fund more equitably.

The Chairman: Does the Member for Jurong wish to withdraw his amendment?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $29,934,290 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $17,860,400 for Head U ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head N -

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NA-01 of the Main Estimates*.

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho See Beng.

Sir, first, I would like to touch on the grant awarded by the Skills Development Fund Council. According to press releases made by the SDF Council in January and February this year, a total of 56 companies were awarded training grants. Out of these, only 10 were from the trading and services sector.

The question I wish to raise is, under what criteria are applications approved or rejected? Are applications considered solely on the guidelines issued, or on other factors? If applications are considered solely on the guidelines, then I submit that many companies in the trade and services sector will not qualify for training grants, even though these companies are substantive contributors to the Skills Development Fund. However, the contributions made by the trade and services sector to our economic development is not minimal. As a matter of fact, their contribution to real growth in GDP for 1980 amounted to approximately 69%. Companies in this sector should be encouraged by the SDF Council, and not discouraged, to provide a higher level of training for their employees, and skills which include the introduction of high-skill services and maintenance procedures or applications should be given due consideration. For instance, airlines, travel agencies, advertising and transport companies can upgrade the skills of their workers, if they are given the opportunity to obtain grants from the SDF.

Some applications were rejected outright without giving any proper explanation. In one application by a company, the following terse reply was given:

'Sir, we regret to inform you that our current guidelines on the award of training grants specifically exclude the establishment of demonstration-type training centres. A copy of the guidelines is attached.' This company could well have qualified for a training grant if a proper assessment was made, as one of the reasons given in the application was "for the training of workers for installation and maintenance of highly sophisticated production machinery that are being sold to our industries."

Since the SDF was recently set up, not every employer is familiar with the application criteria or procedures. I would, therefore, suggest that the Hon. Minister for Finance consider asking the SDF Council to set up an ad hoc Review Committee or Appeals Committee for companies whose applications have been rejected and who wish to make representation. 3.45 p.m.

The second subject I would like to raise, Sir, is application for liquor licences. At pre- sent, applicants for liquor licences are required to submit their application in a very cumbersome way, an antiquated procedure. First, they must submit their applications before the quarterly court sessions. Then they have to take up advertisements in all four language-medium newspapers informing the public of their intended application and whether any persons wish to object to such applications. Sir, this is an old colonial relic designed for purposes and circumstances which are now irrelevant in modern Singapore. Could the Hon. Minister for Finance consider abolishing such requirements other than a straightforward application?

Mr Ho See Beng (Khe Bong): I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr Lau Ping Sum (Yio Chu Kang): Sir, the further development of Singapore into a financial supermarket is being pursued. We were told by the Minister for Trade and Industry that one of the impending projects was the automation of the cheque clearing system. Recently, the Monetary Authority of Singapore issued a circular to the banks in Singapore giving a deadline of September this year for them to encode the cheques in MICR format. However, in view of the shortage -

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, on a point of order, could the hon. Member for Yio Chu Kang declare his interest?

Mr Lau Ping Sum: Sir, I work for a bank. I beg to withdraw.

The Minister for Finance (Mr Hon Sui Sen): Sir, first, on the Skills Development Fund. I believe that 866 applications for training grants have been received as at the end of January 1981, and that some of these applications included those from the services sector as well as from the trade sector. Twenty per cent or 169 applications were rejected. The rejected applications, I understand, were those for programmes of simple operative skills or for training which has been completed. I am not aware of applications from the trade and services sector which have been rejected, but I can assure the Member that there is no reason why applica- tions from these sectors should be rejected if they are worthy of approval. I think the Skills Development Fund would be only too pleased to hasten the rate of disbursement of this fund.

If some of these decisions were conveyed in a language which was terse or unsatisfactory, I feel that perhaps it would be possible for the Skills Development Fund to be apprised of this viewpoint and that they be asked in future to make replies in more courteous language.

The Member also touched on appeals. This can already be made. In fact, 10 appeals were received, of which two were successful. The Fund's secretariat examines every appeal for new material information which could justify reconsideration of the Council. I hope the Member will agree that there is no necessity at this stage to set up a formal Appeals Committee, but if the situation should come to such a stage where an Appeals Committee is desirable, I am sure that will also be considered.

The Skills Development Fund must have guidelines for their work. This would also be useful for members of the industrial and trade and services community when they apply to the Skills Development Fund for training grants. If these guidelines are not quite satisfactory, they can always be changed, but nevertheless it would be useful to have these guidelines for the guidance of the commercial community. When the Fund's secretariat has had its staff increased, which will be very shortly, they will be able to elaborate on the reasons for rejection so that they can encourage and assist companies in structuring better training programmes.

The other question raised was on liquor licences and the outdated manner in which applications are invited and the requirement for advertisements and other procedures. I have not looked at this particular procedure over the last one or two years. I feel that if there are specific ways in which applications for liquor licences can be improved, I am sure they will be considered, I do not know whether the Member has any specific suggestions to make on this point. If so, I would be glad to receive them.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, first, let me touch on the reply given by the Hon. Minister on the Skills Development Fund. Could an applicant, whose application has been rejected, be informed that if he wishes to submit an appeal, he could be allowed to do so? At the moment, quite a number of companies are not aware of the fact that they can appeal if their applications are rejected. They just take it for granted that it cannot be done and let it rest. This will deprive workers of the opportunities for upgrading.

With regard to the second part of my question on the application for liquor licence, as a matter of fact, the present beneficiaries are the newspapers. They are collecting a huge revenue on advertisements, and if one submits an application one has to wait for at least three months for the next quarterly session. This is my own experience when I applied for a liquor licence for the supermarket.

The Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour (Mr Fong Sip Chee): Sir, this House owes big thanks to the Member for Punggol when he so promptly stood up and requested the Member for Yio Chu Kang to declare his interest. That was correct. He did absolutely the right thing. Unfortunately, the Member for Yio Chu Kang was maybe a little overawed by the situation. He could have declared his interest and continued with his speech.

The Chairman: Mr Fong, the Member is going to stand up and make his speech.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: Thank you, Sir. He just said that he worked for a bank and he stopped there. I do not think that will create a good impression in the media.

The Chairman: Give him a chance to explain. Mr Lau.

Mr Lau Ping Sum: Sir, I believe the matter I am going to discuss will be of some general interest. I mentioned that the auto- mation of cheque clearing would be undertaken shortly. The encoding of MICR cheques, namely, Magnetic Ink Character Recognition cheques, requires special equipment and the cheques have to be printed by specialized printing firms, I believe the number of such firms in Singapore is small and, to-date, banks in Singapore have had some difficulty in obtaining quotations and promises of delivery from these firms. So I would like the Minister to consider the possible extension of the deadline in order to allow the banks to obtain the cheques in the required format from other firms available in this region.

The second point I would like to raise is in relation to the recent mass exodus of staff from the MAS. Sir, the development of Singapore into a financial centre has been due in large measure to the foresight of the Government as well as the untiring efforts of the MAS administrators. Unfortunately, we read about a high rate of resignation recently. We were told from press reports that overstaffing had been found in MAS. However, the question of overstaffing is relative. Has there been gross or marginal overstaffing? If gross overstaffing had been found, then it is strange that we discover this situation only now. As the Minister for National Development pointed out, 10 members of a family do not arrive suddenly. In fact, some overstaffing in specific industries is desirable. The Minister for Trade and Industry told us that it is the policy from now on to train and recruit more computer scientists, systems analysts and programmers in order to meet the requirements of the economy in the 1980s. Similarly, a slight oversupply of financial administrators and analysts may not be altogether undesirable. In fact, MAS has been a traditional source of supply of personnel for the banks. It has been an effective training ground for many bankers.

The second factor that has been mentioned in the newspapers is that the investment policies have been less than satisfactory. Sir, it is strange to believe that these policies had been made solely at the discretion of the MAS administrators. I wonder if the Minister would like to enlighten the House on the background to these policies.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: First, I will reply to the Member for Toa Payoh. He suggested that the letter which conveys the decision of the Skills Development Fund should also state that appeals can be made. I am not sure whether it is quite desirable that we should invite appeals even in cases where it is clear enough there would be no success in such appeals. But I think the publicity which has been given by the Member here will surely be sufficient, if the media reports it for public information, that appeals can be made to the Skills Development Fund. Perhaps it is not necessary that we put it in the letter. 4.00 p.m.

On liquor licensing, while I accept the fact that newspapers profit from this, there is obviously a need for some publicity to be given. People who apply for liquor licences should be people who can run these liquor houses in an orderly fashion. It is very desirable that any objections which are made should be properly considered and that they should be invited by advertisements beforehand.

In regard to the Member for Yio Chu Kang and the MAS, I am not quite sure that I am in a position to make any replies to the Member because the exact nature of my portfolio is not quite clear at the moment. The First Deputy Prime Minister is the Minister in charge of the MAS, and he should really be here to answer the questions because I am not at present involved in the reorganization of the MAS. The Management Services Department has supplied assistance in the form of its officers doing studies on MAS organization but, beyond receiving copies of the reports and so on, I think the responsibility lies mainly with the First Deputy Prime Minister. While I still maintain an obvious interest in the MAS, I would not consider that I should answer these questions.

In a general way, on the introduction of clearing house facilities, if there is any need for a further extension of time because of physical difficulties, I am sure there should be no problem for the MAS to grant an extension of time.

On the question of staff in the MAS and the investment policies, obviously, as the Minister in charge of the MAS over the last 10 years, I hold the responsibility for the investment policies and for the state of the organization of the MAS. I myself would consider that there is not too much in the way of overstaffing in the MAS. Obviously, if I had considered otherwise I would not have agreed to the recruitment of additional staff. As Chairman of the MAS at that time, I thought that as a fast-expanding institution, there was need for considerable staff and that there was also a need for expansion in certain areas of development in the MAS.

As far as investment policies are concerned, the management of investments is an art rather than a science. There is no way in which anyone can say that this is the one and best way of investment. From time to time we have to consider the situation as it changes from day to day and make the adjustments. Obviously the First Deputy Prime Minister has gone into this very carefully, and he has his own philosophy of management. I believe that the infusion of fresh ideas and innovative techniques and methods of organization would be useful. In fact, I hope that the Monetary Authority of Singapore would improve investment methods and I also hope we will see better investment returns over the years.

As to the turnover of staff, I think there was a certain amount of turnover even before the First Deputy Prime Minister came into the MAS. There have been resignations of staff because they often took advantage of the very much higher income paid outside the MAS in the banking sector. I believe studies have been made which show that the staff of the MAS were paid approximately half of what the private sector were being paid. But this is surely not surprising because, if Members were to look at the figures which have been produced by the Prime Minister yesterday, that is true for almost all sectors of the economy. Officers in public institutions must expect that they cannot enjoy the same high rates of pay that are evident in the private sector.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead N B-06 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, if I may have your permission to range my remarks over amendment No. (3)* which stands in my name, as it is related to the same subhead in the Development Estimates?

*The amendment reads as follows: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NB-06 Project 8503 of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, under this subhead there is a vote for Central Services and Expenses. Comparing the estimated development expenditure for FY 80 with that for FY 81, there is a hefty increase of $140 million. New Projects will be given $20 million more. Two new items are included, i.e., Transfer to the Contingencies Fund, $90 million and Exgratia payments $30 million.

I have only a simple question to ask the Minister for Finance. The Memorandum on the Budget explains that the Contingencies Fund is to be augmented, and this accounts for the increased vote under the Ministry of Finance. To me, Sir, this explanation is rather vague. 1, therefore, seek further elaboration from the Hon. Minister for Finance as to what the new projects are for and what is the definite purpose for such a transfer to the Contingencies Fund, which is a new item, and what sort of ex-gratia payment is the sum of $30 million for.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, first of all, the need for the proposed allocation of $90 million to the Development Contingencies Fund. This fund was established in 1967 with an initial allocation of $10 million. The fund was to cater for urgent and unforeseen development expenditure for which no other provision exists. So it is not possible for me to tell him what are the new projects and for what purpose. They are unforeseen and are not known at this stage. Expenditure charged to the Fund has subsequently to be recovered through Supplementary Estimates in Parliament. The original allocation of $10 million amounted to about 4% of the total development budget for FY 67. This amount was adequate in the past when the development expenditure of the Government was low. Over the years development expenditure has grown rapidly tom about $250 million in FY 67 to more than $5 billion in FY 81, an increase of about 2,000%. The amount available in the Contingencies Fund has, however, remained the same at $10 million. As a result it has not been possible to use the Fund to meet urgent development expenditure in recent years. For instance, in the current financial year, an additional sum of $316 million was required by various Ministries to meet their development expenditure. This could not be met from the Contingencies Fund and some payments had to be deferred until supplementary provisions were sanctioned by Parliament. Increasing the allocation for the fund to $100 million would help avoid such a situation in the future. The sum of $100 million represents a modest 2% of the development budget for FY 81. I hope the Member will consider that 2% of the present development budget is not excessive when we had 4% of the Budget in 1967.

On the other item of ex-gratia payments of $30 million, the reason for it is very simple. On 4th August, 1980, it was announced that with effect from 1st January, 1981, all contractors would be required to pay CPF contributions for their foreign construction workers. It was recognized that arising from this decision, those contractors working on public sector projects which could not be completed by the end of 1980 would be placed in considerable financial difficulties as they had not taken into account such liabilities for CPF contributions in submitting their tender bids. It would be inequitable for the Government to expect the contractors to bear the full brunt of the CPF contributions. It was, therefore, decided that the Government should pay on behalf of the contractors the full CPF contributions for contracts tendered before the date of announcement of the new policy,

For contracts entered into after this date, the tender bids submitted by contractors for Government projects should include the increase in CPF cost.

The administrative arrangements for the implementation of this decision have been worked out by the Ministry of National Development in consultation with my Ministry and the Audit Department. For the next financial year it is estimated that the sum of $30 million would be required to meet the cost of CPF contributions in respect of foreign workers employed on Government projects. 4.15 p.m.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I thank the Hon. Minister for Finance for his detailed reply. Nevertheless he mentioned that 2% of the total development budget of $5 billion, which is a mere $10 million, is a very conservative figure. Whilst I agree to that, it does appear to me that as far as estimation of expenditure with regard to development is concerned, some Ministries may not have been accurate enough in forecasting such expenditure, and the House has had on two occasions to approve supplementary expenditures for FY 80. Could the Hon. Minister for Finance assure the House that the Ministries concerned, in so far as development estimates are concerned, would be more realistic and accurate in future so that we do not have to set aside 2% for contingencies?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, while I appreciate the need for accuracy where this is possible, in some cases it is not, and in other cases it may not be desirable. For example, in the last application for supplementary funds, I think the reason for requiring funds was the rate of progress made at Changi Airport, i.e. work on the terminal building, runways, and so on, had been accelerated and therefore more money was required for this purpose, I am sure the Member will agree that this is very desirable. In other cases, it could not be foreseen. For example, the boom in the construction of oil rigs had resulted in Singapore getting a number of contracts for building such oil rigs, and therefore we should try and provide some finance for this purpose.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I am grateful to the Hon. Minister for Finance for his close attention to this matter, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NE-07 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I welcome the announcement by the Finance Ministry that it will commence the multi-revenue collection services (MRCS) on 1st August 1981. This item, I understand, was mooted many years ago by the Public Accounts Committee and has been well received by the Ministry of Finance. This is commendable because this system is aimed at reducing manpower and, more important, it would make it more convenient for the people to pay their bills.

However, I am more than just disappointed at the attitude shown by the four statutory boards, namely, the PUB, the HDB, Telecoms and the SBC, which have declined to participate in this scheme. I am not at all sure they have good reasons for not doing so. The reasons may just be good ones, but only as far as the statutory boards are concerned. I am forced to conclude that these statutory boards have not taken into account the convenience and the feeling of the man in the street. I trust the Hon. Minister must have asked for these reasons, and I would therefore appreciate if he would inform this House what these seemingly good reasons are, and in his opinion whether these reasons are justifiable in the light of the objective of this scheme, that is, for the people's convenience.

To my mind, and to that of many of my constituents, this refusal by the four statutory boards smacks of a very bad attitude which I commented during the debate on the Presidential Address recently, i.e. the statutory boards are more interested in showing how well they are making money out of the man in the street. They give the impression that they are not interested in making things convenient for the people. I also hope that where the reasons border on purely financial grounds, the Minister would take the necessary steps to persuade them to change their financial minds. I suggest the statutory boards do some soul-searching and seriously consider the very objectives for which they were formed, i.e. to better serve Singaporeans.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, as the Member for Telok Blangah is a Member of the Public Accounts Committee, he probably knows most of the reasons why in early 1980 the statutory boards withdrew from the multirevenue collection system.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: A point of clarification, Mr Speaker, Sir. I am a Member of the Public Accounts Committee. I know the reasons but I am not convinced of them. So I would like the Hon. Minister to hopefully give these reasons in public and in his opinion, whether these reasons are justifiable.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I cannot speak for the statutory boards and can only state the reasons which they have given for not joining this scheme. I believe the PUB was concerned that the cost would be higher than if it Were to operate on its own. The TAS said that the MRCS would not be able to cope with its future expansion. The SBC, however, did not give any reasons for not wanting to join, preferring to continue with the present practice of appointing the Postal Services Department as its collecting agent for RTV licence fees. The HDB feared that, by joining the MRCS, it would have to collect, in addition to its bills, all other Government bills and the queues at the Area Offices would be longer. It would therefore be unable to provide an efficient level of service. Also, the HDB felt that it would not be able to effectively monitor its collection operations. Lastly, the HDB claim that the MRCS would reduce its flexibility to develop its own online system. In short, as most of the statutory boards have their own established systems for collection of their bills which are adequate for their requirements, they did not see any distinct advantage in joining the MRCS.

As for my views and whether these are good and adequate reasons, I think my attitude to this is that if the MRCS is a good and desirable scheme, then the statutory boards will be induced, after its coming into operation, to join with the Government in implementing this scheme.

In keeping with the free market enterprise spirit that we have in Singapore, I do not think that we want to force any scheme down the throats of the statutory boards although, of course, if that is necessary it could be done in a most necessary kind of operation. But this is a sort of marginal operation and it may be that there are also improvements in the future which may make this unnecessary. At the moment, I think this is the best scheme we can devise.

I agree with the Member for Telok Blangah that it is desirable that we should try and ease the collection of household bills for the public. But I am told that perhaps when we implement this scheme on 1st August 1981, there are features which may require improvement. We may then have to consider what improvements can be made. There is also a school of thought which thinks that the GIRO may ultimately be a more efficient system. In any case, the Treasury is sold on the idea of this MRCS system and will try it out on 1st August 1981.

Initially, we will have 20 centres, one at City Hall, the existing Property Tax Division, and the remaining 19 at various bank branches of the DBS, the OUB, UOB, and OCBC. Two pilot centres will commence operations on 1st August, 1981, five on 1st September 1981, and the remaining 13 on 1st October 1981.

Cash receipting terminals will be installed at these centres to collect income tax, property tax, road tax, driving licence fees and hospital bills. Let us hope that the operation will be a success.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I must thank the Hon. Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,842,293,630 for Head N ordered to stand pan of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $1,852,981,000 for Head N ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head X -

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead XA-02 Object Group 3310 (7) of the Main Estimates.

Sir, this subhead code, among other things, deals with retirement benefit payments and 14 other items under Other Transfers. Whilst I do not wish to go back to my request yesterday for more pensions for pensioners, certainly, Sir, this is not my topic. What I do know is that maybe additional funds are required because of an increase in the number of officers retiring or completing their contracts of service. But there is one area in which the Memorandum states that it is used to meet payments arising from the agreement between the United Kingdom and the Singapore Governments on the transfer of pensions liability in respect of expatriate officers.

Here, I would like to seek clarification from the Hon. Minister for Finance as to this particular point. However, Sir, item 2 is the provision of Singapore allowances and item 7 is New Singapore allowances. I suspect it must have something to do with the Harvey Salaries Report. I would like the Hon. Minister for Finance to clarify the difference between Singapore allowances and New Singapore allowances.

4.30 p.m.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the Singapore allowance is payable to pensioners who retired on salary scales which were not revised by the Harvey Salaries Commission in 1969. As for the new Singapore allowance, this was introduced by Government on 1st April, 1974, because of the unusual inflationary situation which existed then. Only officers who retired before 1st April, 1974, and who were drawing a gross pension below $650 per mensem were eligible for the new Singapore allowance. On 1st January, 1980, the rates were revised and payments no longer restricted to pensioners who retired before 1st April, 1974. Now, pensioners who draw a gross pension below $670 a month are eligible for the new Singapore allowance. The revision in rates as well as the payment to a greater number of pensioners explain the increased provision required in FY 81-82.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I think the Hon. Minister has not touched on the other part of my question, i.e. to meet payments arising from the agreement between the United Kingdom and the Singapore Governments on the transfer of pensions liability in respect of expatriate officers.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: As far as that is concerned, there is now an arrangement which has been concluded - that all British pensions will be paid by the British Government.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: I thank the Hon. Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $6,092,610 for Head X ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

Head M - The following amendment stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar:

Mr Rohan bin Kamis:

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: (1) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar (Radin Mas): ( In Tamil): Sir, since I have already submitted a Question for Oral Answer on this point, I am not moving my amendment.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, we are all aware that we have a clean and green city. Singaporeans, by and large, are proud of this fact. We have even taken it for granted that Singapore must be clean in terms of physical appearance as well as corruption-free. But how many of us are aware that all this is due to the good administration of the Government, in particular the Ministry of the Environment? Usually the first thing that enters one's mind at the sound of the words "Ministry of the Environment", it is hawker's licence.

But, Sir, there is more than what meets the eye. How many Singaporeans are aware that, as early as 6.30 every morning, there are workmen already on the streets of Singapore, rain or shine, to clean our streets, our markets and even our sewers? Are they aware that these unsung heroes of Singapore are vigilantly keeping Singapore clean, day-in day-out, seven days a week, 365 days a year? Many Singaporeans do not even give a look at the poor workman chasing after the refuse collection vehicle in the early hours of the morning, lifting the rubbish bins and emptying them as they go along. How many of us appreciate the convenience derived from the honest and hard work put in by these people every day? These people are good people, Sir. I had the privilege to know them.

It is most disheartening and disturbing to see a not uncommon sight in Singapore - motorists winding down the windows of their air-conditioned cars and throwing cigarette butts, litter, cigarette packets and the like, on to the street. It pains me, Sir, because I know that these good people from the Ministry of the Environment will have to pick them up early the next morning. The question is, what steps, and if possible, punitive steps, have been taken to try to prevent this from happening?

Last year a courtesy campaign was held for the Ministry of the Environment workers, with the cooperation of the union. Can the people not reciprocate this courtesy by contributing an effort to keep Singapore clean? It is typical not to like rubbish, Sir, so nobody wants to remove it, but when it is removed everybody is happy.

In the light of these remarks I wish the Minister could comment.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng (Mountbatten): Sir, as what I wish to speak involves more the control of hawkers, may I have your permission to speak instead on Amendment (5)* of the same Head?

*The amendment, standing in the name of Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe, reads as follows:

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-05 of the Estimates.

The Chairman: All right. Mr Minister.

The Minister for the Environment (Mr Ong Pang Boon): Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand that the Member for Kaki Bukit would also like to touch on the subject raised by the Member for Telok Blangah. Perhaps this would be an appropriate time for him to speak on his amendment* now.

*The amendment reads as follows:

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MA-02 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Yes.

Encik Saidi Shariff (Kaki Bukit): Thank you, Sir.

I wish to take this opportunity to seek clarification or information on the different kinds of programmes or activities to be organized, whether they have been carried out by the Ministry under this subhead, Training and Education.

The objective of the programme is, first, to train staff in environmental public health matters and, second, to disseminate information on environmental health matters to the public. I have frequent contacts and dealings with their officers, the Assistant Public Health Inspectors and the Public Health Inspectors, in particular, in dealing with environmental problems in my constituency of Kaki Bukit, I have no complaints but praises for them. They have been efficient and prompt in taking the right action in dealing with matters that have been brought to their attention. This speaks well for whatever training they have received.

What I am particularly concerned is the second objective of their programme which, I feel, should stress not just dissemination of information but educating the public in environmental health. Through the efforts and campaigns launched by the Government, particularly the Environment Ministry, Singapore has gained the recognition of being a clean city.

But, Sir, if we visit our housing estates or HDB flats, the cleanliness of the environment of the flats is not really satisfactory. The void decks are usually littered, covered with black markings of chewing gum, the lifts are smelly owing to urination by unknown persons; there is indiscriminate dumping of rubbish along staircases or throwing of rubbish from the upper floors and also the indiscriminate placing of flower pots along corridors. This is usually not because of the failure of the HDB or its contractors in carrying out its cleaning operations daily.

Residents' Committees have taken steps to organize cleanliness campaigns, and many concerned residents have participated in these campaigns which are directed towards inculcating social consciousness and responsibility for the cleanliness of their flats. From my own personal experience as a member of the Residents' Committee, I have personally organized such a campaign. The main purpose of such campaigns is basically to instil health consciousness and to educate the residents in the importance of environmental health. In doing so, my Committee has tried to get the cooperation and assistance of the Ministry of the Environment, particularly for the training in health education. The kind of help we normally get is only pamphlets to be distributed or films to be shown to the public.

What I would like to suggest is that the Ministry of the Environment could work together with Residents' Committee in conducting educational programmes for residents on environmental health matters. That is why I would like to raise this question as to what kind of programmes the Ministry has been carrying out so far, particularly in educating the public. Probably more programmes should be formulated and more campaigns should be conducted together with the Residents' Committee.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, I would like to answer the points raised by both the Member for Telok Blangah and Member for Kaki Bukit together.

Sir, it is rare to hear words of praise being said of Government workers, especially of workers in my Ministry. I hope they will take note of the encouraging words said by the Member for Telok Blangah and that they will re-double their efforts to make Singapore a cleaner and greener city.

We enjoy one of the highest standards of public health in the world. As the Member for Telok Blangah has pointed out, rubbish is removed every morning, drains are cleaned and the roads are swept every day. But some people still remain careless about maintaining a high standard of cleanliness and public health, although adequate infrastructure is provided. The solution to this problem is public health education.

The objective of our public health education programme is to make the public more aware of how they can prevent health hazards to themselves and to their community. We organize talks and distribute informative literature, display exhibits and contribute articles to selected publications and get publicity through the Press, TV and Radio. Our programmes cover several themes, for example, vector control, food hygiene, littering and pollution. 4.45 p.m.

However, despite this publicity and educational effort, littering is still a prevalent habit among our population. The number of littering offences has, in fact, increased from 14,550 in 1979 to 18,183 in 1980. More than 50% of the offences in 1980 were committed in Housing Board estates. We cannot, therefore, put the blame on foreign workers or tourists. I am glad that Members of Parliament have responded to the increasing habit of littering and the problem of cleanliness in housing estates by organizing cleaning campaigns. My Ministry will provide cleansing workmen and vehicles and assist in the removal of refuse collected during these campaigns. Officers from my Ministry will help to plan the cleaning campaigns and also provide film shows and talks to residents on how to keep their estates clean.

It is the responsibility of my Ministry to ensure that housing estates are well maintained and refuse is removed. The cleaning campaigns which have been organized are not to supplement the responsibilities of the Ministry and statutory boards in providing cleansing services. Rather they serve to educate residents of their responsibility to keep their estates clean. The subsidiary benefit of such campaigns is that it helps the residents to know each other better and to develop a more caring attitude for both residents and public property. Because of the benefits of such cleaning campaigns, my Ministry intends to step up cooperation with grassroots organizations, such as the Citizens' Consultative Committees, the Management Committees and the Residents' Committees, to organize more of such campaigns. Parents could also play their role by instilling in their children good habits and the awareness that littering and vandalism are anti-social acts.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, in view of the reply and comments given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Yeo Toon Chia (Ang Mo Kio): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-02 Object Group 1310 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I am not going to complain against the temporary and daily-rated staff, but rather to compliment the Ministry of the Environment for the good work in keeping a clean and green Singapore. For this, we must of course thank the daily-rated workers who have contributed significantly to the cleanliness of our city - sweeping the roads, drains, parks and beaches, collecting nightsoil and other disposal services. Sir, for all this work done, the average wage of a daily-rated refuse collector is $10.50 up to a maximum of $12 per day, with a yearly increment of 15 cents per day and for a cleansing worker, it is $8.45 per day up to a maximum of $9.75 per day with a yearly increment of 10 cents per day. A daily-rated worker works, on average, 26 days a month which works out to be roughly $220 to $315 per month. This amount is grossly insufficient to meet the rising cost of living resulting in most of the workers having to rely on another job to make ends meet.

Sir, most of the daily-rated workers are either illiterate or poorly educated. Because of a lack of education they are in the most unfortunate group of workers. We should not take advantage of their ignorance by giving them such a low salary scale for the good work done for us. Rather we should realize the present labour shortage and look ahead to provide them with a more reasonable wage structure so that they will be induced to stay on to keep our island a pleasant place to live in.

Sir, I understand the Ministry of Finance is satisfied with the present employment conditions of the daily-rated workers. It may be because there are not many complaints, possibly due to the substantial wage increase recommended by the NWC for the last two years. The daily-rated workers may keep their mouths closed for another year as the NWC may recommend a last good increase for this year. But how about the year after and so on? With this spiralling inflation resulting in a high cost of living on the one hand and a very tight labour market on the other, will this group of workers stay on with an average yearly increment of 10 cents to 15 cents per day?

Sir, I would like to urge the Ministry of the Environment, being the biggest single employer of about more than 6,000 temporary and daily-rated workers, to consider negotiating with the Ministry of Finance to convert this group of workers into monthly-paid permanent staff or, if this is not feasible, then a better and more realistic salary scale should be worked out. Otherwise we may well end up with a dirty, messy and smelly city one day.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, I have no doubt the Minister for Finance who is here in this House will take note of what the Member for Ang Mo Kio has just said.

Sir, the daily-rated employees have very similar, if not better working conditions and terms of service than workers in the private sector. In addition to their basic wage they are paid the NWC wage increments and the 13th month wage supplement. The Government also pays 201/2% of their wages into their CPF accounts. If they have to work overtime, they are paid overtime allowances. They are also entitled to seven or 14 days of paid vacation leave a year, depending on whether they have less than or more than 10 years of service. Therefore, when the Member for Ang Mo Kio said that the refuse collector is paid $10.50 a day, which is the starting basic pay, he should also bear in mind that he will have to add about another 40% to the basic pay. Besides the pay, some of the daily-rated workers are also provided with quarters.

I think the Member has previously raised this question about converting daily-rated employees to monthly-rated status with the Minister for Finance in this House in 1979. As was pointed out by the Minister for Finance then, the determining factor was one of service requirements. The employment of daily-rated employees provides Government departments some degree of flexibility in the appointment and deployment of such employees in response to changing manpower requirements. This arrangement has functioned satisfactorily and there is no compelling reason to change it. From the workers' point of view, I think many may prefer the present arrangement because many of them have an extra job and many of them do undertake odd jobs which they will not be able to do if they are converted to the monthly rated.

Mr Yeo Toon Chia: Sir, some supplementary questions. The fact that the majority of daily-rated workers have to take on odd jobs or a second job shows proof that their present salary is not enough. I know that in 1979 I requested the Minister for Finance to consider converting the daily-rated employees to monthly-rated status. As I mentioned just now, the Ministry of Finance seems to be satisfied with the present employment conditions. But I feel that with such an acute labour shortage and a wage structure of a yearly increment of 10 to 15 cents per day, it is not fair to the present workers. Perhaps we are taking advantage of their low level of education. I would like to urge the Minister to consider negotiating with the Ministry of Finance for a better wage structure for this group of people who are doing a good job for us. 5.00 p.m.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, it does not necessarily mean that by taking on a second job, the existing job is under-paid. There are workers who want to enjoy a higher standard of living, to buy colour television or a refrigerator, and so they do not mind working harder to get more than double of what they are getting.

I do realize that there is a labour shortage in this country at the moment and that unless we pay a market rate that is commen- surate with the efforts put in by the workers, we are not likely to recruit enough workers for the job. I can assure him that we will always keep the situation under review and, if necessary, we will certainly take up with the Ministry of Finance about the terms and conditions of service of the cleansing workers.

Mr Yeo Toon Chia: Sir, in view of the Minister's assurance, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (Tiong Bahru): ( In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-03 of the Main Estimates.

The Public Health Department bans coffee-shops from placing tables and chairs along corridors for their customers. From the viewpoint of public health, and for the convenience of the pedestrians, it is all right to do so. But, there is a Chinese saying that food is a foremost consideration. In Singapore, many people take their lunches or three meals in coffee-shops. If the authorities are not flexible enough in dealing with this problem, it will cause a great deal of inconvenience to many who have to eat out.

For those old generation coffee-shops including those in old HDB estates, because of the planners' inability to foresee the problem years ahead, their designs were not practical. There is not enough space in the coffee-shops. After putting up some food stalls, there is hardly space to accommodate more than a few tables. In certain busy and crowded localities, the number of people who want to take their lunch is so large that the shopkeepers have to make use of the five-foot way to put their tables and chairs. During peak hours, the coffee-shops are usually crowded with people and smoky. It is really uncomfortable to eat in such places. Therefore, the customers themselves prefer to eat outside the shop-proper and on the five-foot way. Thus, the coffee-shop owners are fined or booked for putting the tables along the five-foot way.

If the authorities go all out to ban coffee-shops from placing tables and chairs along the five-foot way, it will not only affect the business of both coffee-shops and stalls within, but also cause inconvenience to members of the public. I therefore hope that the authorities concerned would be enlightened enough to take into consideration the physical constraints of the places and the practical demands of eating before enforcing the law. If there is a real need and if it does not cause too much of an obstruction to pedestrians, or endanger them, some flexibility should be exercised. The coffee-shop owners may be asked not to put too many tables and chairs along the five-foot way, to remove them after the rush periods and to keep the five-foot way clean after use.

The Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment (Mr Chor Yeok Eng): ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of the Environment does not allow eating shops to extend their activities to the five-foot way, the reason being that we have to keep public health and hygiene at a reasonable standard. If this is not done, the remnants of food left on the five-foot way, if not swept away in time, will breed cockroaches, flies and rats. This will also cause what we fear most, the contamination of our water supply. Generally, any restaurant or eating shop has classified areas for specific uses. For example, there is the kitchen, the dining or eating place, a place for preparing the food, and the store-room. Therefore, if these coffee-shops are allowed to extend their business activities to other areas, without similarly extending their kitchen or the preparatory area, it is doubtful whether they will be able to keep the food in a healthy state and the place conducive to public hygiene. Therefore, we cannot relax these regulations. I know which eating shop the Member is referring to. It is in the city area where the condition of this eating shop is quite special. We will carry out further study into this particular case.

Just now he mentioned about the smoky condition in the eating shops. I agree with him that there are too many food stalls in the coffee-shops. That is why the coffee-shops are smoky. We have taken note of this. We will persuade certain coffee-shop owners to reduce the number of their stalls or provide more space for their customers.

Members will realize that the Government is spending quite large sums of money every year on building hawker centres and markets, particularly to resite roadside hawkers so that they can operate in a more congenial environment under covered buildings. If, therefore, coffee-shops are allowed to extend their business operations outside their premises onto the five-foot way or even the roadside, it will be most counterproductive. We have to do something to maintain a minimum standard of hygiene and health. This will inevitably cause certain unhappiness among some people. If this standard is not maintained by our Ministry officials, I believe Singapore would not have been as clean and green as it is today, a fact which various Members have referred to earlier.

Mr Ho See Beng: ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I feel that the Senior Parliamentary Secretary did not direct his answer to the question.. The request made by the Member for Tiong Bahru just now is very fair and reasonable. I would like to know this: if a hawker can give an assurance that he will take care to clean up the place so that no rats or flies will breed there, will the Senior Parliamentary Secretary allow him to carry on his business on the five-foot way?

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Sir, the Member for Khe Bong does not seem to understand what I said. My reply was relevant and directed to the question just now. He either did not listen to what I said or he did not understand. He asked whether we would allow hawkers to carry on their business on the five-foot way if they were prepared to clean up the place. First, we are not talking about street hawkers. We are talking about eating shops. He was trying to confuse the House by bringing up another issue. Secondly, I have mentioned several times that if operators of eating shops have the landlord's permission and if there is proper accommodation, then we will consider giving them the permission required. But the Member was merely confusing the issue.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (ln Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, from the hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary's reply, it gives the impression that he is worried that if, on the one hand, we are resiting roadside hawkers in hawker centres and markets; and, on the other hand, we are allowing coffee-shops to extend their business operations to the five-foot way, this would seem to contradict policy. But the point I am trying to emphasize is that the authorities concerned should take into consideration the physical constraints of the place and its practical needs and circumstances of each case.

The hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary said he is aware of that certain eating shop I am talking about. In this particular case, there is a dead end on the five-foot way. So there is no question of causing any obstruction to pedestrians. The hon. Parliamentary Secretary's other worry is that cockroaches, flies and rats may breed there. May I ask: if the shopkeeper concerned is prepared to remove the tables and chairs and clean up the place after the rush periods and to ensure that there is no breeding of pests, then under such circumstances will he accede to the request of that shopkeeper?

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I mentioned just now that if there are special circumstances to warrant such a request, then we will give due consideration. And as the Member has said, if occupation of the passage will not obstruct or cause any inconvenience to members of the public, then we will further consider his request. If it is found permissible, we will make certain proper arrangements for the shopkeeper concerned to extend his operations to the five-foot way.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: ( In Mandarin): Since the Senior Parliamentary Secretary is willing to consider such a case, which means there is still a hope, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. 5.15 p.m.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe (Geylang Serai): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-05 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in 1980, the Consumer Price Index rose by 8.5% and indications are that it is likely to continue to increase further. The increase in the cost of living affects the low-income earners greatly. Most of them are workers who depend on the cooked food hawkers for their lunch and sometimes even their dinner. I wish to take the opportunity to ask the Hon. Minister to enlighten us on the measures which have been implemented by the Hawkers Department to ensure that the cooked food hawkers do not profiteer,

I hope that the Hon. Minister can also inform us whether the Hawkers Department undertakes periodical reviews of the types of items sold in their markets, especially the older ones, to ascertain:

(a) whether there is an adequate range of goods sold in the markets to satisfy the consumers patronizing the markets;

(b) whether there is adequate competition among the hawkers in the markets. In other words, what steps are being taken to ensure that no hawkers or group of hawkers can be in a position to monopolize the sale of certain items or goods and profiteer by charging unreasonable prices: and

(c) whether there are too many hawkers in some markets selling the same type of goods which has poor demand and, as a result, some of them are unable to earn a decent earning from their stalls. What type of assistance can the Hawkers Department provide to hawkers who face genuine difficul- ties because of the poor demand of the goods they sell?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, first, I must apologize to the Ministry of the Environment because I cannot shower the same kind of praise that my colleagues earlier on could. In fact, if I had more proven facts, I think all my colleagues will join me in coming down on the Ministry of the Environment like a ton of bricks.

Two years ago, I spoke about empathy in this Chamber and at that time I was referring to the Ministry of National Development. This year, in the Committee of Supply, I am not moving any amendments at all when we consider the provisions of the Ministry of National Development because they have, in fact, improved tremendously. Now, I would like to talk about the lack of empathy in the resettlement section of the Ministry of the Environment. I do support the resettlement of hawkers because we get clean food to eat in a better environment, and so on and so forth. It is in the process of resettling street hawkers that the problem comes in. People are not being kind enough to poor old street hawkers. They are poor and they have to be resettled, and I think it is their right to be able to study or to be given some time to investigate the place that they are being resettled to. The reason is that they are going to invest their life savings in a hawker stall selling some goods in order to make a profit. But when after investigation, they find that the particular stall to be allocated to them on resettlement is not a good place, they naturally refuse to take that stall.

I have on occasions during my Meet-the-People sessions come across hawkers in such a predicament, and if they are women, they come in tears. I hope I am not unduly soft-hearted, but I do have a heart and I feel that they ought to be given some kind of consideration. Because once they get in to a poorly located place, they cannot come out. It is very, very difficult to come out. And to change stalls, again it is very, very difficult. So I think they have got good reasons why they do not want to move to stalls that are not so profitable.

Mr Speaker, Sir, can I just relate to you a case involving a street hawker? She was supposed to be resettled to another place and she requested for a licence to sell certain goods which she felt would give her better earnings, instead of accepting a condemned stall in a condemned place in an awkward corner of a hawker centre. Actually it is the hawker centre in my constituency. I know this particular corner of the hawker centre. My community leaders also know the particular area of that hawker centre. The HDB Area Office has oft-times told me that this is a bad corner and yet this poor lady has been told to get a stall in that particular area. Because she was persistent, I think some tempers flared up, and later she was told to go to the Environment Office somewhere to explain. Later on the officials said, "Can you please put your thumb print on this little piece of paper here?" She put her thumb print and she went back. The next time she went back to the office and asked, "Where is my stall?" They said, "Your stall is at the place which we gave you." She was not happy because she thought she had been tricked into taking that stall.

I do not know whether this is true, but I wrote to the Senior Parliamentary Secretary and he did a very good investigation. He came back to say that he was satisfied and that everything was all right. "There is no problem. Do not worry. I assure you that everything is all right." This is why I thank him very much. I know that he does his work very well and I praise him for it.

The ultimate thing which I still query is that, at the end of it all, it is still the officer's words against that woman's words. And this is where I want to query and I hope that in future when we resettle hawkers this point is borne in mind. Let bygones be bygones, but in future when we resettle hawkers, we should have a more considerate viewpoint or a more considerate heart towards our poor street hawkers.

Mr Speaker, Sir, you have a constituency. If there is a provision in the Standing Orders that would allow you to raise such matters, maybe you would support me because I think your hawkers in Joo Chiat Constituency are also not happy for the same reasons.

Sir, I do not believe that there can be smoke without a fire. Basically, I think there must be some problem somewhere. So I suggest that the Minister ensures that hawkers who are resettled in future are treated with some kind of respect. They, like all Singaporeans, would like to have a more secure vocation. With the impending presumptive tax being considered by our Hon. Minister for Trade and Industry, I think it is even more important for us to ensure that we give them an opportunity to earn the kind of subsistence that they want. Anything short of security would create unhappiness.

Mr Speaker, Sir, can I have your permission to relate another situation which I think is even more entertaining? This happened sometime last year. One of my hawkers in my constituency was found to be selling contaminated food which could cause diarrhoea. But, Sir, the letter that they wrote to the hawker gives me the impression that they were communicating with a university student studying microbiology. Permit me, Sir, to quote some of the terms that were used:

'The sample was found on analysis to contain E-coli which indicates faecal contamination.' Later on, the letter says:

'You are advised to clean all paraphernalia associated with the article of sale.' Sir, that is a mouthful. Now, Mr Speaker, Sir, imagine writing to an uneducated hawker using terms such as "E-Coli", "faecal contamination", "paraphernalia" and "article of sale". I think hon. Members understand these terms and I do not need to explain them.

Mr Tan Soo Khoon (Alexandra): Explain to the hawker!

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: I do not need to explain to the hawker because it is not my job.

Some hon. Members: It is!

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: It is not. I have some strange feeling that some officers in the Ministry of the Environment need to learn how to write good simple English. Otherwise, I presume that they want the easy way out and just quote from the law. The easiest way is to quote from the law. And I suggest that we be more careful in future because it will not solve the situation. The hawker does not understand what we are trying to tell him.

May I then suggest that instead of going round distributing pamphlets - I do not know but I think one hon. Member mentioned pamphlets just now - let us not just distribute pamphlets hoping that the hawkers will read them. I think they will not read the pamphlets. Maybe later on the Senior Parliamentary Secretary might just say that it is their duty to read the pamphlets. I do not know. But my community leaders told me that they did some kind of a survey in the hawker centre and they came to the conclusion that 80% of them are literate either in English or in Mandarin. But I really hope that they can understand the pamphlet that we have distributed. If not, then I suggest we give some simple illustrative talks to hawkers. When can we do it? Simple. When the hawkers go and apply for the renewal of their licences, we can just call them in for a while and explain to them in very clear and simple terms what food contamination means and what the regulations are all about.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, let me first answer the questions raised by the Member for Geylang Serai. According to the hawkers' regulations, every hawker must display a price list in his stall. This does not mean that the Hawkers Department or the Ministry of the Environment wants to control prices of goods sold by them. We are in a society where there is free trade and with an open and competitive market. Therefore, it is difficult for the Government to control the hawkers and the traders in respect of their selling prices. At the moment, there are a good number of food stallholders in fair competition in a free market which is, of course, the best way to check profiteering. If the stallholders engage in too much profiteering, the customers would not want to frequent them.

The Member also brought up the question of stall arrangement, their locality and other related matters. In consideration of the needs of customers, we have all along grouped the various hawker stalls into specified areas, fish, meat or vegetables. In particular, dry goods and "wet" goods are sold in different areas, where a group of hawkers will be selling dry goods in one area and other hawkers will be selling cooked food in another area. They are arranged in such a way that housewives and customers will find it convenient for them to call at such places. 5.30 p.m.

On the question of certain hawkers trying to profit too much by raising prices to overcome this problem, usually we allocate at least two stalls selling the same kind of goods together in the same market. This is to prevent hawkers from gaining a monopoly over certain articles. Recently there have been a number of applicants for hawker stalls. They do not want to be stallholders selling fish, meat, fruit or daily necessities. If there is manifestation of a manipulation of prices, it may be due to the fact that other hawkers do not want to sell particular articles so that in the end only a few stalls or shops sell such goods and so they can easily manipulate the prices of such goods. Because of the unwillingness of some stallholders to deal in certain goods, we cannot force them to engage in the trading of such goods.

On the other hand, in certain markets there could be a flux of certain goods. In this case we could consider whether we should make some arrangement to adjust that imbalance according to particular circumstances. If in certain markets there are hawkers selling goods which are not in good demand, then we may allow them to change to other goods upon request. We will give them the permission to do so, if warranted. But the question is whether they can sell a different kind of goods at the same stall in the same locality. For instance, if we were to allow an applicant to sell fish, which is "wet", and the neighbouring stall is selling dry goods, then it may affect the interest of his neighbour. In such a circumstance we will not give him the permission. Because if we do, it will be at the expense of the other. So we have to see whether there is another suitable vacant hawker stall in the same market to enable him to sell the type of goods which he wants. This is my reply to the Member for Geylang Serai.

Another matter I want to touch upon which was raised by the Member for Mountbatten is the resettlement of street hawkers. I think many Members present will agree with me that resettlement of hawkers is an onerous task, but this is part of the policy and duty of the Government. The staff of the Ministry of the Environment have to carry out this unpleasant task very often. They have to be resolute and firm in carrying out this task. My Ministry has now and then reminded our staff that whenever they carry out their duties of resettlement they are to be courteous and sympathetic to the people affected and, where possible, they should be flexible and should give all the necessary help. If it were not for the flexibility and the suitable attitude of the staff in carrying out this task, the situation of hawkers will not be what it is today.

The Member for Mountbatten has entered the political arena for only two years now. Had he been on the political scene in the 60s, he would have found that the streets, car parks and roads would all have been occupied by hawkers. The problem then was not as easily dealt with as it is now. It was an entirely different situation. We could well reminisce on this.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, on a point of clarification. I was born in 1942, I was aware of the street hawker situation and I know that the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has done a good job. I do not have to be a Member of Parliament to know this.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): I am only reminding the Member of Parliament of the situation. On the other hand, he mentioned examples concerning two hawkers. One was selling sweets and cigarettes in the backlane off Meyer Road. On resettlement, this hawker requested for a stall in the Old Kallang Airport Hawker Centre to sell cut-fruit. As it was necessary to know the circumstances, the matter was investigated further and it was found that there was no vacancy there and that also it was not suitable for such a hawker to do business in the locality. Therefore, we asked her what other vacancy could suit her. She said she wanted a lock-up stall to sell daily necessities or sweets. After the stall had been taken up by her, she changed her mind, perhaps because of poor business. She said she wanted another stall to sell another kind of goods. Our current policy towards a request for a change of stall or goods is that it can only be considered after the hawker has occupied the hawker stall for six months. If she had not changed her trade to other goods, it would be easier to grant her permission. It might be that this particular hawker did not inform the Member of the true situation. We have resettled many hawkers in the past. My experience is that after resettlement these hawkers would not return to see the Member of Parliament of the constituency concerned if they have made a good start. Only those few who have failed in their business will return to see the Member of Parliament to trouble him further. This is only some of our experience, and I believe my colleagues present in this House will agree with what I am saying now.

On the other point about our staff using very high-sounding English terms in their letters to the hawkers that it makes it very difficult for the hawkers to understand, after having heard extracts from the letter, I agree with what the Member has said. I agree that in future when our staff write to the hawkers or stallholders, they must try their best to use simple language to enable the recipient to understand them.

As regards the education of hawkers in the matter of food hygiene and a healthy environment, we have been paying attention to this problem for many years. In addition to posters, pamphlets and other measures, we have in the last few years also exhibited film shows and slides in various locations. If it is necessary in future to promote such campaigns, we will continue to make use of such methods or try to innovate some other improved methods. I think I have replied to the questions raised by the two Members.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I feel that not all hawkers understand English, whether the English is written in high-class language or in simple language, I hope the Senior Parliamentary Secretary would ask his staff to write letters in Chinese, if not in all the other languages as well, to help the people.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: There are two things I want to clarify. First, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary said that if the hawkers were successful they would not come back to see the Member of Parliament, and that if they were not successful they would come back to see the MP. I think it is all right to help these people to find a better livelihood as we go along. I think there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Secondly, I wonder whether the Hawkers Department can arrange it in such a way that when the hawkers come to collect or renew their licences, the staff can explain to them, one group at a time, the implications of poor food handling. We cannot see germs with our naked eye. Maybe the Department can culture them and let the hawkers see for themselves.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng (in Mandarin): Sir, as to the suggestion of the Member for Jurong that letters to the hawkers be written in Chinese, we will give consideration to it. But so far we have found it difficult to get suitable translators for our Department and we are still trying to overcome this problem.

As regards the clarification of the Member for Mountbatten on the point that hawkers who are successful in business would not return to see the Member of Parliament except only the failures, I would like to say that I was only trying to say that our resettlement programme has been successful and that is why not many hawkers have returned to look up their Members of Parliament. Of course, all Members of Parliament are willing to help the poor people and would welcome them. I am not saying that this kind of work is wrong. It is correct, and we should praise the Members of Parliament, particularly the MP for Mountbatten, for attending to such people. 5.45 p.m.

What I am saying is that it is difficult for some people to adjust to the social changes. Although we try our best to help them, it usually takes a very long time for such people to adapt to the new situation. This is not just peculiar to Mountbatten constituency. In my constituency the same situation obtains also.

A few years ago, when Clementi area and the Jurong Town Hall were being built, a lot of village farmers had to be resettled. A widow came to see me several times about a hawker stall. In the end I found her the only stall left, a stall to sell curry powder in the market. "I could not take that stall," she said, "because I am not an Indian. Only Indians sell curry powder." She said that she might not sell all the curry powder and they would go bad the next day and so might not make a profit. I told her that perhaps she could try to sell some other type, say, dry curry powder in bottles which would not turn bad for months unlike the wet type. In the end she accepted my suggestion. I understand that she is doing well now.

This is a complex question. I am giving this example only to show what could have been done. As regards any future publicity and education and so on, I think I will get my staff to liaise with the Member for his advice and help.

Mr Ho See Beng: ( In Mandarin): I would like to ask the Senior Parliamentary Secretary whether, besides the case of the widow mentioned, there were any widowers who also sought his help.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Perhaps not a few similar cases had also come to seek the Member's help.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok (Delta): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-05 Project 8101 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, my constituents really appreciate that the Hawkers Department recently spent about $140,000 to improve and develop the Alexandra Road Cooked Food Centre into a very nice eating place with all the modern facilities. This shows that the Government does take good care of the environmental health of the people, and the provision of $2 million in FY 81 for the development and improvement to market and hawker sites further shows that the improvement of environmental public health has never been neglected by the Government,

Sir, Delta is an old housing estate. Facilities need to be improved and upgraded from time to time. The present Alexandra Road Market was built in 1950 to cater for the needs of the dwellers of the low-rise SIT flats. With more and more high-rise HDB flats, thus bringing more people into the area, I think the outdated market needs to be improved to cope with the new environment. The market is a low building. The ventilation is very poor. During the dry season it is unbearably warm inside the market, and because of its locality and low structure it is dim all the time. As such, I would like to know if the Ministry has any plan to develop or at least to improve this market site for better market facilities.

Sir, I also want to know where are the other market and hawker sites earmarked for development and improvement in FY 81.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Sir, the vote for the improvement of markets and hawker centres does not include the market in Delta. This amount had been decided last year and it is meant to renovate markets and food centres which have been earmarked for renovation and improvement this year. They are Taman Jurong, Empress Place, Boon Keng, Golden Mile, Boat Quay and Corporation Road. These are on the list for this year. It does not include Delta.

According to the Member for Delta, we have to spend some money to improve the market in Delta. This year we have only limited funds. Each year we have to make our proposals for such an expenditure. Now that we know that the market at Delta is old and needs improvement, we shall be paying attention to this. If the expenses involved are not great and if funds are still available this year, we will try to improve the conditions there. But if the funds to be incurred are great, then we have to include it in the provision for next year. I have to state here that priority will be given to the street hawkers.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Since the Senior Parliamentary Secretary agrees with me that Delta needs a better and new market, and in view of the promising reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-05 Project 8401 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, one can see from the Development Estimates that last year there was a provision of $100,000 for land acquisition for development and improvement to market and hawker sites. Not a single cent has been spent. This year the $100,000 has to be revoted. In this respect, I would like to ask the Senior Parliamentary Secretary why the Ministry of the Environment's Hawkers Division has not been able to find land to build hawker centres and markets.

I will take Joo Chiat as an example. Of course , I am not prompted by Mr Speaker to raise this. Three markets, I am told, were gone and there is no more market in Joo Chiat. As a result, the residents have got to go to Marine Parade to do their marketing. Has the Ministry of the Environment looked into a matter like this?

I remember, Sir, last year when I touched on the same subject about the Hou Gang New Town, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary promised to look into this matter. But I am surprised that nothing appears to have been done. The question is: do we keep on coming back to Parliament asking for a revote? If his Ministry has got certain plans to develop the markets and hawker centres and needs to acquire land, the Ministry must have these plans and the areas in mind, and not merely putting it down in the Estimates and ask for a revote the following year. I hope the Senior Parliamentary Secretary can clarify this.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Sir, on the question raised by the Member for Punggol, he has brought it up for the third time now. And this is the third time I am answering this question. The reason is, as he has observed, that the Hou Gang housing estate is to be built and the Government has to see that plans for supporting facilities go hand in hand with the development of the area. Therefore, we have delayed the renovation of the market and food centre there. On the one hand, according to our records, in Punggol there are still 29 hawkers whom we intend to resettle. On the other hand, the Member for Punggol will be rather disappointed to know that although the market is now being built at the boundary of Punggol, it is inside Tampines constituency. It is not in Punggol constituency. It is near the junction of Upper Serangoon Road and Tampines Road. Construction of this market is being carried out now. It will be completed by 1982. The 29 hawkers that I mentioned just now will definitely be moved into this market.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I do not insist that a market or hawker centre must be in Punggol constituency. Let me remind the Senior Parliamentary Secretary of this fact. If the Hou Gang new town is to be built, would not the Ministry of the Environment and the Housing and Development Board sit down and do some serious thinking together and conclude that, with a new town of 26,000 units housing some 130,000 people, as mentioned by the Hon. Minister for National Development in reply to my question, it would mean that they have to build a market and hawker centre in that new town? What I am interested is that the needs of the people must be looked into. Give them as little inconvenience as possible. Of course I am mindful of the reply given by the Senior Minister of State, Prime Minister's Office, that Singaporeans are becoming choosy. For them to walk one or two kilometres is a long distance. But do not forget that they have got to shuttle up and down the high-rise blocks of flats. The new market that the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned is close-by to Punggol. In fact, I think it is part of the new town centre he is talking about. But, on the other hand, although some 30-odd street hawkers as mentioned by him will have to be resettled there, I hope they will be happy when they are resettled there. 6.00 p.m.

But the other question which the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has not answered is this. In the constituency of Joo Chiat, if the three existing markets had been taken away and moved to Marine Parade, the result is that Joo Chiat residents have no markets. The residents there are complaining that they have to go all the way to Marine Parade market and there is no shuttle bus service. These are problems which we have to look into as a whole. That is why I have to clarify earlier on that I have not been prompted by the Speaker to raise this matter. Of course, Mr Speaker cannot bring up these matters, but I am aware of them. So can the Senior Parliamentary Secretary please be more explicit? If he does not give me a satisfactory answer, I will not withdraw the amendment.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, on the question of liaison with the HDB when we build markets and hawker centres, I want to assure the Member for Punggol that we have been working hand in hand. That is why in the planning programme of Hou Gang, we are holding back the building of a market there, because in a few years as more areas of Hou Gang are developed and occupied the estate will gradually grow. At present, the Ministry of the Environment, the Ministry of National Development and the Housing and Development Board are working hand in hand with one another. I cannot say what will be likes hereafter in regard to this work. It may fall on the Housing and Development Board alone. But I know that, in principle, the construction of a market depends on the number of residents in the area. In this way the number of markets and food centres overall can be proportionate to population in any one area. In Joo Chiat, I think the Housing and Development Board will be planning the development of this market. It is not under our charge. In our liaison with the HDB in its planning and development of markets or centres, we usually give them advice.

I have said a few days ago in this House that in recent years, our younger generation is becoming more different from the older generation, following the change in social environment. They are more choosy now. They want to go to shopping centres to do their marketing instead of in the markets. It is not that they do not want to travel a longer distance. That is not the reason. According to our study, the reasons are, first, nowadays many young couples are both working to earn a living. It is not like in the past when the man would be working outside the house and the woman would be working inside the house. Present-day women regard going to the market in the morning as something out of place, because both husband and wife are working and have no time. The second reason is that it is very difficult to get domestic help. The third reason is that there is a change in the practice of preserving food. In the past, perhaps 10 out of every 100 households might have refrigerators. But today, in Singapore, although I have not made an actual survey, I am sure more than 90% of our people have refrigerators at home to preserve food. This is another trend.

Whatever the trends may be, I am sure that whenever the number of residents living in an area warrant it, a new market or centre will be built to meet their needs.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has dealt with the matter at great length. But can I suggest to him that, first, in respect of the $100,000 to be re-voted for land acquisition, can he assure this House that he will look into the question of providing a market in Joo Chiat?

Secondly, on the question of markets and hawker centres, let us take Whampoa. There is a market and hawker centre there, and next to it, just within a stone's throw, there is another hawker centre. Here is one constituency, so small in terms of area, having two hawker centres, so much so that one group of hawkers would do business in the mornings and the other in the evenings. Is this not a waste of money? We talk so much about building hawker centres all over the place. I think that constituency has got one too many, and it is a waste of public funds.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Sir, when I asked the question whether the market at Mountbatten could be expanded, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary explained that it was not necessary because there was one nearby at Jalan Batu in Tanjong Rhu. If we were to take the distance between my area and Jalan Batu, it is much closer than the distance between Marine Parade and Joo Chiat.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, as regards the Member for Punggol's enquiry whether I could make use of this re-vote to build a market in Joo Chiat, I say that it is very difficult for me to give such an assurance. The first question is whether there is a suitably located land in Joo Chiat and secondly, whether or not the land, if available, is suitable for the building of a market, it is not for us to say. It is up to the Planning Department.

As regards the two markets in Whampoa, they were not built by us but by the HDB, and I have no right to reply on their behalf.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I am not satisfied with the Senior Parliamentary Secretary's reply. Can he inform this House what this $100,000 is to be used for?

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, since this vote is for the development and improvement of market and hawker sites, it will, of course, be directed towards that end. As regards locality. I cannot say for sure. I can only say that the sum will be used for the purposes designated.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, that is one of the worst answers I have ever come across. If the provision is for land acquisition he must have the plan to indicate which part of Singapore is a market to be developed. I am going to press for a vote on this amendment if the Senior Parliamentary Secretary does not give me a satisfactory answer.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: ( In Mandarin): Sir, if the Member wants to request for a vote to be taken on this amendment, of course, he has the right. If his question is what the provision is to be used for, I have already told him that since it is provided that the money is to be used for the development and improvement of market and hawker sites, then if a site is found it will, of course, be directed towards that purpose.

As for locality, it is up to the Planning Department. All over Singapore, many areas are to be developed according to the Planning Department's programme. We cannot say that if a certain place is acquired we can definitely use it to build a hawker centre or a market. We have no right to say that, because it comes under the zoning of the Master Plan governing the development of that land. I can give him a good example. Although we have tried several times, in fact, three requests and a dozen meetings altogether, to build a hawker centre on a site next to the entrance to the General Hospital, which we deemed very suitable for the purpose, in the end permission is still not given. We have done our homework and presented our case suitably. But, according to the authorities, it has been designated for other uses and not for a market. So, even though we have the money, what can we do?

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, since he has explained that his Ministry has great diffi- culty in getting clearance from the Planning Department of the Ministry of National Development over the use of certain land for the building of markets and hawker centres, I would like to urge the Hon. Minister for National Development to consider the problem of the Ministry of the Environment. I am happier now because he has given us a clearer picture of the position and the magnitude of the problem. On that note I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MC-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I wish to seek clarification from the Hon. Minister whether pollution control measures, such as adequate sanitation requirements, are extended to building construction sites.

At many construction sites, one would notice that temporary building quarters have been erected at these sites where construction work is expected to continue for a long period of time. Most of them are make-shift structures, often in a dilapidated condition. In the absence of proper sanitation, workers at these construction sites make use of the uncompleted buildings or the surrounding areas to do their ablutions. This not only poses health hazards but alSO creates a nuisance to the residents living nearby. This practice is prevalent in uncompleted HDB flats and human excrement is often found in the uncompleted flats. I suggest that the contractors should be made responsible for the provision of proper sanitation facilities for their workers at construction sites and they are also made to ensure that the workers comply with the health requirements. Probably these workers could be housed temporarily in HDB one-room flats. Some of these HDB flats could be converted into dormitory type of accommodation and rented out to the construction workers or the contractors. This will not only prevent pollution of the environment but also reduce the number of such unsightly structures.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, all contractors are required by my Ministry to provide sanitary facilities close to the workers' quarters at construction sites. These include water-closets, urinals, wash-basins and bathrooms. To ensure that contractors comply with these requirements, my Ministry has a standing arrangement with the Water Department of the PUB not to supply water to any construction site unless adequate toilet facilities have been provided. Of course, we do still encounter problems of workers defecating indiscriminately in and around construction sites and in uncompleted buildings, notwithstanding the availability of toilets. It may be because the toilets are too far from where they work. We will, however, require contractors to locate some of the toilets closer to where the work activity is and make it convenient for the workers to use them. 6.15 p.m.

As for the suggestion that one-room HDB flats may be made available to the construction workers, I am unable to answer that point because I am not sure of the availability of such one-room flats and whether they are conveniently located at the construction sites. This is a suggestion which I think the Minister for National Development may look into.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, in view of the satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MC-02 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, I have just a small question to ask of the Hon. Minister for the Environment. It relates to sewerage schemes. For FY 81 a huge sum of $137,674,000 will be allocated for the development of sewerage schemes, etc. I would like to reiterate here that in an area stretching from certain parts of Upper Serangoon Road right up to Punggol Road (except in the case of HDB estates and private housing estates) there are no sewerage facilities. I have raised this matter before and the previous Minister promised to do something about it. But I see in this year's budget that there is no provision for a sewerage scheme in this area. So if there is no sewerage scheme, then that part of Punggol and that part of Upper Serangoon, which is now part of Serangoon Gardens and part of Paya Lebar, will continue to be serviced by the bucket system which, I think, is not only unhygienic but very unhealthy.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, in 1977, when the hon. Member for Punggol raised the question when a sewerage system for the Lange/Kovan Roads area in Upper Serangoon Road would be implemented, the then Minister replied that this would be done in two or three years' time. All the sewers for the Lange/Kovan Roads area were completed in 1979. They have since been commissioned,

There are no plans, however, for any sewerage system in the Punggol area at the moment. The area is now mainly occupied by pig farms. However, in areas being developed by the HDB, sewers will be laid, for example, in the Hou Gang New Town.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, it looks like I will have to keep on raising this matter until it really falls on open ears and not deaf ears. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $151,574,750 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $194,437,000 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.