MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1981 TO 31ST MARCH, 1982

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [7th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head L (cont) -

Encik Saidi Shariff (Kaki Bukit): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead LC-04 Object Group 2610 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, may I take this opportunity to comment and make suggestions on the Extra-Curricular Activities Programme of the Ministry of Education. My ideas are not new but I believe they are worth repeating in this House to ensure that the Ministry give them due consideration in the interest of education for the benefit of our people and nation.

I notice that there is no increase in the estimates for all the different items listed under ECA. So I can assume that the Ministry will be repeating these items, though their format may be different. In comparing all the items listed in the ECA programme, I observe that the budget for Combined schools camp for pupils and teachers gets the lowest allocation. Probably this activity is considered of least importance. May I seek some information on this particular item? How is this camping activity organized, which is allocated only $6,000? How many schools, students and teachers have participated in camping activities, and to what extent has the objective been achieved?

It is my view, as one who loves outdoor life and who has gone on many mountain-climbing and adventurous camping expeditions with youths and students, that camping could be used as one of the best means for the overall development of intellectual, physical and psycho-socio-emotional well-being of young people, particularly in the context of our rapidly changing urbanized society. There are many things about life that teachers and pupils can learn from each other outside the classroom.

It has been said that schools nowadays are mere knowledge factories and they have become impersonalized without any identity and do not give a sense of belonging to the students. Schools are looked upon as places to gain knowledge, pass examinations and get certificates to serve as passports for entry into the real world.

Nowadays every housing estate or new town will have its own schools - primary, secondary and junior colleges. With industrialization and modernization, we will now have many mothers working in factories and offices. The school will have to assume a larger share of responsibility for the development of our young people, and therefore the school will be in a stronger position to exert influence over its students. The school will thus have tremendous potential, in terms of opportunities, in shaping and developing our students.

Therefore, I believe that our schools should be developed in such a way that they blend with community life in the estates where the students live. They should look upon the school as their second home. The residents in the estate should look upon the school as part of their belonging in the whole community. During the school holidays particularly, camps can be organized where students can live together in the school and learn the demands of community living, the need for cooperation, team spirit, team work, caring for one another, and showing concern for one another. Basically the camp is to provide pupils with experience of group life. There would not be any book learning but the practical learning of relating to one another, living with each other and working for one another. The psycho-socio-emotional needs of our young children or youths could be enhanced with the guidance of adults, i.e. the teachers. Better relationship between teachers and pupils and between pupils and pupils could be developed. Teachers could have a better insight of their pupils, and pupils a better understanding and acceptance of their teachers. Teachers could better learn about their students' problems, needs and learning capacity and their aspirations, etc.

I am fully aware that camping as an activity has been and is being continually organized by the different student societies, particularly the uniformed organizations. But what I am suggesting is that every student should be given at least an opportunity to experience group life, staying up, living, working and playing with their classmates and teachers at any one time during their study in the school. It is important that we need to cater consciously and to promote the psycho-socio-emotional well-being of our students.

It has been pointed out to me that there is a relationship between the psycho-socio-emotional well-being and academic achievement of a student, and also between the psycho-socio-emotional well-being and the well-adjustment of a student. In my experiences of dealing and training youths in leadership, I notice that those who have had experiences of group life - that is of living, working, facing hardships and challenges and enjoying life together with other members of their peer group, are more self-reliant, good mixers, outward going, more confident. In short they have better potentials of becoming leaders, if not, at least good followers.

Camping in any form, on a classroom basis, on a school basis or on a society basis, according to the prevalent situation or resources available to the school, should be made as an ECA for every student to attend and participate. Some of my school teacher friends object to these ideas for they believe that it will be an extra burden for them, particularly if it is being held during the school holidays. I suggest that this project could get the involvement of Residents' Committees and Parent-Teacher Associations in organizing, planning, and implementation of such projects. The whole community of the whole housing estate could be involved. In fact, community service projects could be organized during the camping period of the school holidays.

I have only ten minutes but if I have an hour I can present the project proposals or the values of camping. I am sure the many ECA officers from the Ministry of Education who are present here would definitely back me up on this. So I hope that the Ministry would consider more seriously and perhaps provide more money to schools to organize such camps.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi (Kampong Kembangan): Sir, I have not been out camping as often as my good Friend, the hon. Member for Kaki Bukit. But I share his views about the importance of outdoor life, particularly for children.

However, if I may, I would like to make one small suggestion - that while the holiday camp is organized with emphasis on group interactions, I am wondering whether the Ministry can add another component in the week-end camping, that is, to relate it to the study of nature. In this regard I would very much like to hear if the Minister would consider the possibility of expanding or of having more week-end camps, by making use of the nature reserves in Bukit Timah Hill. I think there is tremendous potential in encouraging our children to study nature, organize group investigations and help them to acquire a wider outlook towards the importance of ecology.

With regard to the ECA, I am wondering if the Minister could ask his ECA officials to ensure that. the conduct of sports, either inter-school or inter-district, if they are still being organized, should not in any way lead to any bitterness between schools or even occasionally fights between students. I think it will be a shame if, at the end of all these efforts of promoting sports among school children, we have children fighting amongst themselves. 3.00 p.m.

I do not know what are the possible reasons. Maybe they were over-zealous in the competition, or possibly we had not explained to the children the basic purpose of sports, or had not adequately ensured that the teachers guide the children in promoting the positive purpose of sports. I hope the Minister could emphasize this point so that while our children become good sportsmen they would also become people of high character.

The Minister of Education (Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam): Sir, may I first begin by taking the two points mentioned by the Member for Kampong Kembangan. First of all, the extension of the camping programme to include a nature study camp at the nature reserve in Bukit Timah and, secondly, to make sure that there is no bitterness between schools in their sports programme, I will tell my ECA officials to take these points into consideration.

The Member for Kaki Bukit has spoken at some length about the value of camping. Let me take a few minutes to describe the varied programme of camping activities that the Ministry of Education has arranged for schools. Schools not only take an active part in the Ministry's programme of camps but also organize their own camping activities. First of all, the St. John's Island Camp. There are two camp sites on St. John's Island which are available for the exclusive use of schools. In 1979, 70 schools made use of these sites; in 1980, 79 schools: and in 1981, up till now, 76 schools have booked to use these sites and more will come in the coming months.

The next type of camp I would like to mention is the Immersion through ECA camp, and this has been arranged through the Ministry of Defence which has made available the use of SAF camps for this project. In 1980, four camps were organized and this year there will be seven camps.

The next camps are the Outward Bound School courses. First of all, the five-day adventure training course camps. This course was introduced for Pre-U 1 and Secondary 4 students, In 1979, four courses were organized; in 1980, seven courses; and this year, there will be ten courses for Secondary 4 boys and nine courses for Pre-U 1 boys. In addition, there will be a 14-day junior course camp which is being introduced by the Outward Bound School for pupils who are in the uniformed organization?. Schools will be encouraged to send as many pupils as possible to this course. In addition to the above, as I have said, many schools organize a wide variety of camping activities to cater to the varied interests of their pupils.

The hon. Member has also asked why there has been no increase in the allocation for camping activities between 1980 and 1981. The answer is that the funds are adequate and that Mindef has been very generous in totally subsidizing many of the camps.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri (Kampong Ubi): Sir, can I just make a short observation on the answer given by the Minister of Education? From the statistics given, it seems to me that only about 70 or 80 schools make use of the camping sites at the St. John's Island, and we know that in Singapore there are more than 120 secondary schools. In terms of numbers, I think there were many schools which did not have the chance of attending these camps at St. John's Island. Perhaps the Ministry of Education could look into the possibility of scouting for some other suitable islands as camp sites. The camp sites at St. John's Island are very good and it has got a good land area where the sea is available and the facilities are there. Perhaps in the not too distant future the Ministry will look into other areas for camp sites so that all schools will have camps at least once a year rather than compete for this limited space at St. John's Island.

Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam: Sir, the Ministry will take the suggestion of the Member for Kampong Ubi into consideration.

Encik Saidi Shariff: Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to again draw the attention of the Hon. Minister to this point. I am quite aware of the camping activities that have been organized by the Ministry. I wish to thank the Minister for giving the information.

The Member for Kampong Ubi mentioned the shortage of places for camping. What I would like to suggest is camping in the school during the holidays where activities can be organized at the school grounds. Camping can be carried out in many different forms. What I am interested is to provide an opportunity for all the school children. Many school children have come to see me and asked, "Mr Saidi, can you organize camping for us?" I said, "Why do you not ask your teachers to organize?" The children said that the teachers did not want to organize. So is it not possible to organize camping in the schools during the school holidays as this will provide an opportunity for community living?

Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam: Sir, the answer is yes.

Encik Saidi Shariff: Sir, I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar (Radin Mas): ( In Tamil): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead LC-01 of the Development Estimates.

In my constituency of Radin Mas there are a lot of children who cannot find suitable primary schools for themselves. And as a Member of Parliament of that constituency I know that this has caused concern among the parents. Therefore, I would like to request the Minister to state whether there are any plans to build more schools in my constituency.

Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam: Sir, as I have already informed the House yesterday, a new primary school will be built at Lower Delta Road in Radin Mas constituency and this primary school will be ready by April 1983. I will ask the Ministry to take into account the Member's request for more schools in his constituency. Our difficulty is finding suitable school sites for development within Radin Mas, but we will try.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar: ( In Tamil): Sir, there is also a shortage of teachers in the schools in my constituency. I would like to request the Minister to look into this problem. Since the reply given to me is very satisfactory, I thank the Minister on behalf of my constituents and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead LE-02 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to seek information from the Hon. Minister about the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies. I notice the subsidy for this Institute is steadily growing year by year. For this reason, I trust the Minister would inform the House what are the objectives and the success criteria of this Institute; what has it done; how well does the work carried out to-date measure against these objectives and success criteria?

Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam: Sir, the objective of the Institute of South-east Asian Studies (ISEAS) is to promote research on South-east Asia and on all matters pertaining to South-east Asia. In the 12 years since it was founded, ISEAS has made a good start towards achieving this objective. In quantitative terms, ISEAS has published an impressive array of books, monographs, documents, papers, reports and discussion papers. It has sponsored more than 150 research and visiting fellows who have come from all over the world.

The activities of ISEAS cover three main areas. First of all, research. The focus of research is on modern South-east Asia, particularly the multi-faceted problems of development, modernization, political and social changes in recent years. The on-going research programmes include economies of ASEAN countries, foreign investment and its impact on South-east Asia, problems of modernization, maritime issues and resources and management of population problems. Besides research, ISEAS also organizes conferences and seminars involving discussion on topics of current regional interest and importance. The last seminar was held in November 1980 on "Trends in Indonesia".

On publications, ISEAS has published more than 160 books, monographs, reports and papers on South-east Asian matters. Its library holdings have grown to over 100,000 volumes of books, bound periodicals, microfilms and microfiche, together with scores of newspapers and other current periodical literature.

ISEAS has made a good beginning towards becoming an outstanding centre for advanced high quality research on and in South-east Asia. If we give it adequate support it will flourish and in due time be a credit to Singapore.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I must thank the Minister for the information and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Yeo Toon Chia:-

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head L be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead LF-03 Project 8308 of the Development Estimates

The Chairman: Mr Yeo, amendment No. (5).

Mr Yeo Toon Chia (Ang Mo Kio): Sir, I am not moving.

3.15 p.m.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head L of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, a teacher-in-training is very often told by his supervisor to provide some time at the end of his lesson for, what is commonly termed, recapitulation. This is not a jargon. This is a layman's term. As I am the last Member to move amendments on the Main and Development Estimates for his Ministry, I shall treat my comments as a recapitulation or a resume of what has been said previously. As such, there is bound to be some overlapping and I hope the House will bear with me.

Sir, before touching on the general issues, I would like to mention two specific items. The first is the Curriculum Development Institute. With the setting up of the CDIS at Kent Ridge and sparing the CDIS of the "bureaucratic interference" of the Ministry of Education, the Institute is now on a steady road towards curriculum development. As of now, there are 17 project teams concentrating on English and Chinese languages, Mathematics and Science. CDIS is also developing supplementary and suitable materials for the monolingual courses. We are also informed that when more talented teachers have been identified, more project teams will be formed.

Sir, the Ministry of Education is sending groups of teachers to the Innotech Centre in Manila and to-date there is a sizeable number of teachers and senior officers who have returned from attending courses there. One of the many items made known to the course participants was the Project Impact. I am told that this project, described as one of the many successful educational innovations in the region, is more relevant to other countries in South-east Asia than to us. However, one aspect of this educational innovation is in the construction of teaching materials through the module system. Perhaps the CDIS would consider examining the feasibility of producing curriculum packages along the module system especially for pupils of below average ability. The module system has within it the learning of specific skills in a particular subject, along certain definite stages. Learning through the module system along these stages will, of course, enhance the pupils' sense of achievement and confidence. One other possibility is to use these module packages as supplementary materials whereby the pupils could work on them at their own time, either during the week-end or during the holidays.

I now turn to the Ministry of Education's School Building Programme. Much to our delight, the HDB will now build schools together with the houses, and the Ministry of Finance will foot the bill on school buildings. There is, however, one other small contribution which the Ministry of Education could request the HDB to do. This is in the area of beautifying the school premises. Up to now when the schools are ready for occupation, the premises is devoid of any greenery in the form of plants and trees. It is left to the school principal concerned (sometimes the principal will not be appointed immediately) to work his way to beautify the surroundings. In this connection, the Ministry of Education could invite the Parks and Recreation Department to be involved in its building programme. The expertise available in the Parks and Recreation Department could help in enhancing the physical, aesthetic beauty of our schools. The Department is doing a good job in beautifying our roads. This could, of course, be extended to our schools.

Sir, I would now like to make some general observations on the education system and its effects on the teaching profession vis-a-vis the morale of the teachers. When the Minister for Finance informed the House that the morale of the workers in the Civil Service is excellent, I sincerely hope that it includes the teachers in the Civil Service too. However, indications are that the morale of teachers is fluctuating with the tide of the educational policy changes. The survey by STU seems to indicate that the fluctuation is higher on the negative side. But let us look at the educational scenario and try to re-trace some of the major developments in order to arrive at a more balanced picture.

First, we need to look at its objectives as spelt out in the Goh Report, 1978. Two fundamental points stand out clearly. The first is to reduce wastage by allowing each child to learn and develop at his own rate or pace. The second is to produce school leavers who are literate in at least one language. How can these be achieved? As I see it, this is being done by upgrading the professional standards both at HQ and in the schools. Thus, the strategy which the Ministry is adopting now is the multi-pronged approach towards upgrading professionalism and attacking the problems on different fronts. It is in the course of initiating these changes along this multi-pronged approach that has given rise to the ups and downs of public response, including the teachers themselves.

Some of the changes, which are laudable in their intentions but have resulted in causing anxieties and uncertainties among the teachers and the public, include the following:

(i) In the course of reorganizing the Ministry of Education, "The dismantling of the Education Development Division caused much anguish in the (teaching) profession." [Quoted from the Addendum to the President's Address on the Ministry of Education.]

(ii) The streaming exercise has and is still causing much psychological and emotional uncertainties to the public.

(iii) The controversy over the release of the PSLE results has enhanced these psycho-emotional anxieties.

(iv) The suggestions made on the dissolution of the teachers' unions have aroused much public discussion both within and outside the teaching profession.

However, on the other side of the coin, there have been other changes which are, to my mind, generally acceptable to the teachers. These include, among other things:

(i) The revision made to the Education Scheme of Service in 1979.

(ii) The liberalization and the encouragement given to non-graduate teachers to gain admission into the University.

(iii) The various language courses at the Language Project Centre and the British Council to increase the teachers' proficiency in English.

(iv) The setting up of the CDIS and the various projects being undertaken.

(v) The proposed Senior Education Service.

Putting these changes on an educational balance sheet, how do we see the results? I would say that considering the short time of just over 2 1/2 years, much has been done towards raising professionalism. But the basic question is still being asked: i.e. what is the morale in the teaching profession? As I have said earlier, at best It is still fluctuating.

In my humble observation, there seems to exist between the HQ and the schools a kind of "cultural-lag" or "cultural-gap". This cultural-lag exists, to my mind, at two levels. One is the psychological level and the other is the intellectual level. On the psychological level, it seems to me that the personnel in HO are totally committed to increasing professional standards. However, I am not too sure if this total commitment exists in the schools for a variety of reasons. On the intellectual level, the HQ, with all the expertise at its disposal, is far ahead on educational issues and developments, so much so that the schools feel that they cannot keep up with the pace and tempo set by the HQ. Rightly so, the Ministry of Education is trying to remedy these by improving its communication system with the schools.

The Schools Council, it seems to me, only reaches the principals. When the message is given to the teachers through the principals, very often some distortion or variation takes place. This is the common trait or characteristic in any oral tradition which is being handed down. In this respect, why can the Ministry of Education not find some ways of reaching the teachers direct? May I suggest that the Ministry of Education meet the teachers at least once a term on a zonal basis. There are enough Junior Colleges to accommodate the teachers in each zone. Here, a face-to-face dialogue on the educational changes would help bridge this cultural-lag that seems to exist on the psychological and intellectual levels. If the Ministry of Education can talk to the Members of Parliament and the principals, surely it can find time to talk to the teachers.

Recently, the Minister for Trade and Industry had a successful meeting with the Residents' Committees of Ang Mo Kio - 3.25 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Your time is up, Encik Wan. May I remind hon. Members that the guillotine time for this Head is at 3.40 p.m.

The Senior Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr A. Rahim Ishak): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak on the main head of the Ministry of Education.

With the implementation of full-day schools, the question of food would be foremost in the minds of any thinking and, I think, all concerned parents. Ideally, parents would expect an overhaul of the school tuckshop not only in terms of physical layout and facilities but also the proper preparation, handling and quality of the food served. At present, in most primary and secondary schools, the tuckshop is just a place for drinks and quick snacks.

I believe, to most school-going children, breakfast is a skimpy meal of a cup of beverage, bread with jam or butter or margarine and an egg or two in more affluent homes, unlike the nutritionally balanced Western breakfast of fruit juice, cereal, egg, meat, whole milk, bread with jam and butter and tea or coffee and the like. The only substantial meals of a Singaporean child are lunch and dinner where the staple rice is often served with soup and accompanying dishes of meat and vegetables, rounded off perhaps with fruit.

With full-day schools, a child would have to take lunch in school for five days a week for at least 40 weeks in a year. The food he eats in school then would be of vital importance as his health can be damaged by eating too much of certain favoured foods low in calories and proteins but high in animal fats and carbohydrates which is typical of most fast-foods.

The period from birth to adolescence is one of vigorous mental and physical growth in an individual. These are the vulnerable years because deficiency or excess of the five groups of nutrients, namely fats, carbohydrates, proteins, minerals and vitamins, needed for physical well-being could lead to malnutrition or, at the other extreme, obesity with all its attendant illnesses.

Recently, I requested a school principal, a friend who works closely with me in Siglap constituency, to look into this matter. A recent survey on the breakfast habits of our pupils in the morning session revealed that about 11% (38 out of 332) of our pupils do not take any breakfast at all before attending school. Of the remaining lot, about 90% take breakfast consisting of a cup of beverage with milk, bread or cakes or porridge or noodles and an egg occasionally at home while about 10% take breakfast consisting of only a hot drink and/or bread at school. 3.30 p.m.

To supplement their meagre breakfast, most of our pupils have a drink and snack during recess at the tuckshop. Besides hot or cold drinks, our tuckshop vendors sell mee siam, mee goreng, noodles with soup, fried beehoon, rice broth, Malay cakes, bread, cakes, kachang puteh and a whole host of other kachangs, packaged tit-bits like krupuk, etc, preserved fruit and fresh cut fruit.

A study of the food available shows that they are made up mostly of starch with very little greens and minimal high-quality proteins in the form of a thin slice of egg or meat. Such food if taken regularly as lunch will, I think, definitely impair the health of active growing children who need a well-balanced diet.

Children by nature are playful and it is likely that most will rush through or may even forgo their lunch so that they can have more time for boisterous play with their peer groups. I see the danger of bringing up a whole generation of fast-food consumers who will subsequently look to canteens and hawker centres for most of their meals. Even closer to where I am speaking from, I see some adults too going for fast-foods almost every day.

Thus, to implement the full-day school, it is imperative that improvements be made to food items sold in the school tuckshop. To a child, meal-time should and must be a source of pleasure. Hence, it is important that the tuckshop should be clean, spacious and airy with proper adequate seating facilities. This, I believe, is already the case with most of our schools. Tuckshop vendors need to be reorientated and educated in the whole process of preparing wholesome food. Besides occasional briefings on food hygiene and handling, correct cooking procedures and time in cooking is equally vital, as over-cooking will deplete and destroy the nutritive value of food, especially minerals and vitamins. They will have to discard old steadfast habits of putting lots of starch in favour of more animal proteins and vegetables.

To keep control over the quality of school tuckshop food, I wish to propose to the Hon. Minister the setting up of a team of nutritionists to go round all schools to oversee and advise the vendors. I am not suggesting that the food items now provided at our school tuckshops be completely substituted with new ones. This would be too drastic a step. In any case, it would be impractical to do so as our children would still prefer food items which they are used to taking. What is needed is the introduction of, for example, more proteins and other nutrients presently lacking in the existing items. In any event, a team of nutritionists would, I am sure, be quite capable of looking into the details. Now that health science, including the study of food constituents, has been left out of the school curriculum for a considerable number of years, thus rendering our younger generation less if not completely uninformed about food facts, the very least we could do for our children is to ensure that they be provided with nutritious food in our schools for their physical nourishment.

Lastly, Sir, there will, of course, be parents and guardians who would prepare or have prepared some substantial easy-to-carry food which their children and wards can take to school for lunch. But for the majority of our school-going population, many with working mothers, I believe the solution would still be with the provision of upgraded nutritious food catered in our full-day schools.

Mr Lau Ping Sum (Yio Chu Kang): Mr Speaker, Sir, on many an occasion Ministers and other leaders have stressed the desirability of learning two languages, English and the mother tongue. Through the learning of these languages, we will appreciate better our basic values and understand human nature and the relationships between individuals or groups of individuals.

Sir, the learning of languages requires time, determination and will-power if it is undertaken in adulthood. The majority of our people are still monolingual. Thus there is a continuing need for effective translation. In addition, the development of Singapore as a convention centre will necessitate the provision of efficient translation services. In emphasizing the importance of the bilingual policy, the Government appears to have over-looked an important area. We do not seem to have provided adequate training facilities for those who aspire to be translators. There is little formalized and systematic training for our students to master the art and science of translation.

Sir, translation is not and can never be a mechanical process which can be undertaken by anyone with a working knowledge of two languages. It is an art because a certain degree of flair is a prerequisite. It is a science because systematic training and constant practice will make possible and facilitate the recall of an equivalent image or expression in the other language. Effective translation must be a paraphrase which expresses the point accurately. To do this, therefore, the translator must have a broad cultural background to enable him to perceive the full connotations of the passage being translated. When an Hope went to China, the Chinese translator did an excellent job until Bob Hope mentioned Caesar's Palace and Raquel Welch. In Singapore, not only have our translators been largely self-taught and deprived of formal training, they are also not rewarded for performing a task which is both demanding and uninviting. May I suggest that the Ministry look into the feasibility of setting up a training institute for translators for students who wish to pursue this career.

Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I shall have to be brief in my reply in order to beat the guillotine time. First of all, on the point made by the Member for Yio Chu Kang regarding the importance of translators. I agree with him but I am the wrong Minister to deal with this matter. I think the Minister for Culture or perhaps the Speaker of Parliament would probably be the right person to deal with it.

We shall consider the suggestion of the Member for Siglap that it would be worthwhile to get a team of nutritionists to study the needs of our school children regarding food in their tuckshops.

The Member for Kampong Ubi has made three points. First, regarding CDIS, I should like to inform him that the CDIS will consider the use of modules in the development of teaching materials where appropriate. Secondly, with regard to the beautifying of schools, the Ministry of Education has consulted the Parks and Recreation Department and they have strongly advised us not to plant trees while construction is going on as the saplings can easily be damaged by the workers. So the planting of flowering plants and shrubs will have to be done by the schools and by the principals after the schools have been completed.

Finally, as regards teachers' morale, I have spoken at some length on this yesterday in my reply to the points made by the Member for Jurong and I have nothing more to add.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, can I just make a few more points?

The Chairman: By all means, carry on. You have one minute.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: The Minister has mentioned that he is very concerned with the morale of teachers. But it seems to me that although much has been said about things to be done, communication seems to reach only at certain levels of the hierarchy. And more often than not, the teachers do not get much of the publicity early as expected. In one of the recommendations made in the Goh Report under the section on morale of teachers, if I may be permitted to quote, it says:

'The Director of Education should brief principals and selected teachers from schools on major policy changes before these are publicized and implemented. This will ensure that teachers will not be the last to know of these changes.' Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister whether his Ministry will be reporting to Parliament in the not too distant future on the status of our education system, as required in the additional amendment moved by the Member for Kampong Chai Chee on 28th March, 1979, and I quote from Hansard, Vol. 39, col. 93:

'... that the Minister of Education do report to Parliament after 2 or 3 years on the progress, unresolved problems and state of implementation of the revised structure of education.'

Mr Speaker, Sir, if other hon. Members and myself are seen to have raised more questions - 3.40 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Encik Wan Hussin, I am afraid it is guillotine time.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: Sir, in view of the answers given by the Hon. Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The time allotted for Head L having expired, the following amendment standing in the name of Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri was not proceeded with:-

(7) That the total sum to be allocated for Head L of the Development Estimates be reduced by $100.

The sum of $749,496,100 for Head L ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $235,072,000 for Head L ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head V -

Mr Ho See Beng (Khe Bong): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VA-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, what I would like to touch on is a matter relating to the inadequate public assistance given to recipients under certain special circumstances. According to the public assistance scheme, the maximum amount that a household can receive is $100, no matter how many dependants there are in the family. According to a social survey in 1973, it was established that $240.11 was the monthly subsistence amount for a family of four, excluding educational expenses. So if one is to consider the inflation from 1973 to 1980, then the subsistence level for a family of four would definitely be more than $240.11. Sir, but the amount given to families on public assistance is even less than 50% of the monthly subsistence amount, which makes one wonder how these families manage with the amount of financial assistance given and how the families can become self-supporting with this amount.

Of course, the Ministry will argue that public assistance is given to help recipients to tide over their temporary financial difficulties while in the meantime they have to look for employment for their subsistence. I say this argument does not hold water because most of these recipients were formerly employed as labourers and seasonal workers. These jobs require strength and stamina and hence it is unlikely that the recipients who are sick and handicapped can hope to go back to their former jobs. Neither can they take up any skilled or semi-skilled jobs as they do not have the necessary skills required. Therefore, Sir, if a public assistance recipient with a wife and two school-going children receives $100, the family will definitely not be able to subsist without additional subsidy. And with the head of the household incapacitated, the wife will have to undertake a part-time or a full-time job to help supplement the household expenditure. But most wives cannot undertake a full-time job as they have young children to look after. The Social Welfare Department should not withdraw the public assistance on the ground that the wife is working and so they do not deserve public assistance. Therefore, I would like to request the Acting Minister for Social Affairs to look into the matter and review the policy in the light of the circumstances.

The Acting Minister for Social Affairs (Dr Ahmad Mattar): Sir, this question of Public Assistance Scheme has been debated over and over again in this Chamber. As the Member for Khe Bong has rightly pointed out, the objective of the Public Assistance Scheme is to help families tide over their financial difficulties. It is not meant to be a Scheme to help them indefinitely. But for those who are genuinely incapable of earning a livelihood, the Public Assistance allowances will be supplemented by other schemes administered by the Social Welfare Department of the Ministry of Social Affairs.

As regards his suggestion that my Ministry should review the policy on the Public Assistance Scheme, I will take note of it. In fact, the Public Assistance Review Committee, the formation of which I announced last week, just met yesterday, and among the things looked into were those suggested by the hon. Member.

Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, I am glad to note the Acting Minister for Social Affairs has responded to my request. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VB-02 of the Main Estimates

Sir, the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS) has done a good job for the Muslim community. Most apparent is its success in the mosque building programme, under which six mosques have been built under Phase I and eight more will be built under Phase II. The recent successful organization of the mass celebration of Prophet Mohammad's Birthday is another feather in the MUIS cap. Last year I suggested that MUIS should strengthen its administrative and public relations capability to meet the new challenges ahead. The Hon. Acting Minister then elaborated the steps he would be taking. I trust the implementation of these steps is well in progress and that the good results are benefiting the Muslim community in particular and the Singapore society as a whole. In this respect, would the Acting Minister inform the House of the progress to-date in this direction?

It has been brought to my attention that the time taken to deal with the cases submitted to the Syariah Court is far too long and this is causing anxiety among the parties involved. Furthermore, it was also pointed out to me that there are only two social case workers attached to the Syariah Court. What then is the cause of the delay? Is the delay due to the shortage of manpower? In this respect, would the Acting Minister inform the House of the steps that he would take to alleviate this problem?

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi: Sir, may I be given the permission to also say something about the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura?

I join my colleague, the Member for Telok Blangah, in commending MUIS for effectively implementing various programmes which have brought about the rationalization of the religious services in Singapore and the upgrading of various facilities including mosques, religious schools, the collection and payment distribution of fitrah, the administration of pilgrimage, and so on. It would be pertinent for us to consider a number of issues that could crop up, bearing in mind the rapid implementation of various programmes which have never been experienced by the Muslim community in Singapore.

I wish to make particular reference to the mosque. Normally, in a mosque which exists in an enclosed kampong, there is a general homogeneity of people and the thinking and values of the residents are quite uniform. There is no likelihood of any fundamental disagreement within the residential area concerned. But as we introduce and construct modern mosques in the new housing estates, where the community includes Muslims and non-Muslims, it is important to remind the mosque officials that they are administering their mosques in a totally different environment. It is important for MUIS to ensure the proper selection of mosque officials, MUIS should not just be a regulator but should also help the officials to upgrade their programmes. It should also ensure that the mosque programmes will not only serve the needs of Muslims in the Housing Board estates but will also be consonant with and contributive to the overall development of Singaporeans as a whole.

I would also like to mention that, unlike the experience of the mosques in the kampongs, the mosques in new housing estates are multi-functional in nature. They not only conduct religious activities but also implement educational programmes, missionary activities and even organize social recreational programmes which are not normally organized by mosques in the kampongs. It also handles large amounts of money. Previously in the kampong, it was quite normal for mosques to handle about $1,000 to $2,000 per month. However, the cash flow of new mosques in housing estates entails large amounts of financial transaction, maybe four or five times the amount which is normally handled by a mosque in a kampong. It is extremely important therefore for the management committees of these new mosques to have a sufficient level of competency in handling cash and the management of accounts.

We must ensure that the officials are able to make good use of the funds which are being entrusted to them. The people who contribute to the mosque building fund are not only people who stay within the catchment of the mosque but are Muslims all over Singapore. The extent of responsibility in ensuring proper accountability of the funds becomes much wider.

It is important for the Minister to consider the feasibility and even the urgency of trying to attract a larger number of professional people to be involved in the running and management of mosques, either directly or indirectly. Presumably there are many professional Muslims who are not yet active in this area. Perhaps the Minister could consider formulating programmes to attract their active involvement.

The other point which I would like to raise concerns the mosques in the central business district area. I understand that my colleague, the Member for Radin Mas, has a point to ask in his Notice of Amendment and so I would not like to mention that specific case. But I foresee that in five to ten years' time the whole area of the central business district will be subject to an overall development. Old buildings will be pulled down and multi-storey modern business houses will be constructed. It is important for us to ensure that the total development of the central business district should not be impaired, not because we are against any traditional institutions but for the lack of advanced planning to provide for the necessary institutions.

In this regard I am wondering if the Minister could inform the House whether his Ministry has any long term plans for the possible relocation or even redevelopment of mosques in the central business district. I see this as important for two reasons. First, there is a large population of Muslims in the central business district. From the experience we see in the present mosques in town, there is usually severe congestion during Friday prayers. Secondly, consistent with our policy of encouraging residents to stay within the central business district, it will be useful if the Minister could provide religious institutions with facilities like those enjoyed by residents in housing estates, so that those who will eventually stay in the central business district can also enjoy such facilities.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I thank both the hon. Members for Telok Blangah and Kampong Kembangan for their praises of the Muslim Religious Council of Singapore (MUIS).

Let me first answer the two questions raised by the Member for Telok Blangah.

First, he touched on the reorganization of the MUIS secretariat. Sir, if you recall, sometime last year I did mention in this House that the Management Services Department (MSD) of the Ministry of Finance had been invited by the Ministry of Social Affairs to make a study of the MUIS secretariat and to come up with recommendations on how to improve its administrative set-up. The Department has come up with certain recommendations. I will only highlight the more important of these recommendations.

One of the recommendations is that the MUIS should have a full-time Accountant to look after its financial matters. The MSD has also proposed the post of Assistant Director (Public Relations and Information) to deal with the publicity aspects of MUIS' work. Another recommendation is the provision for a full-time Director to head the Secretariat. This latter recommendation is made on the assumption that the post of the President of MUIS is only a part-time appointment. As a variation to this recommendation, the MSD has also proposed the appointment of a full-time President of MUIS who could then double-up as the Director of the MUIS secretariat as well. Of the two alternatives, my Ministry has opted- for the latter. Those are some of the major recommendations, Sir, made by the Management Services Department of the Ministry of Finance.

I will now inform the House of the outcome of my Ministry's request to Finance Ministry for the posts recommended by the MSD. Our request for the post of a full-time Accountant for the MUIS secretariat, sad to say, has been turned down. Finance Ministry feels that the number of accounts kept by MUIS and the amount of funds available for investment do not justify the appointment of a full-time Accountant. In Finance Ministry's opinion, Sir, the complexity of accounting work rather than the sheer volume of accounting entries is a more relevant factor in considering whether there is need for an Accountant. However, in place of an Accountant, the Ministry of Finance has approved the post of a Financial Officer in the Executive Personnel Group. Finance has not agreed to the post of Assistant Director (Public Relations and Information) as recommended by the MSD; instead it has approved the post of Public Relations Officer on a grade equivalent to that of an EO in the Civil Service.

But most important, Sir, what I would like to say here is that the Minister for Finance has agreed to the request made by the Ministry of Social Affairs that the post of President of MUIS be upgraded from one of part-time appointment to that of a full-time Superscale 'H' post. I would like to thank the Minister for Finance for that!

Back to the question of the Accountant, Sir: as a result of Finance Ministry's decision, the Ministry of Social Affairs has been exploring the possibility of seconding a professionally qualified officer to head the Finance Section of the MUIS secretariat. Unfortunately, the search has not been successful so far, as serving officers with the necessary experience and qualifications could not be released from their duties in the departments in which they are serving. In view of this, MUIS will be advertising the vacancy of a Financial Officer in the press soon.

As to the Member's second question on whether or not the two Muslim social case workers in the Syariah Court are heavily loaded with work, my answer to him is 'No'. They are not heavily loaded with work, and I will give the reasons why. There are, first of all, two posts of Muslim social case workers in the Syariah Court and both these posts are filled. The workload of the two Muslim social case workers depends on the incidence of marital disputes and the time and effort needed to resolve these disputes. During the three-year period 1978-80, the number of new marital disputes registered in the Syariah Court increased at the rate of 7% a year. The average number of new disputes registered during this period was 1,151. During the same period, the number of cases disposed of rose by 17 1/2% a year and the average number of cases disposed of in the same period was 1,052. The Member for Telok Blangah will see that the number of cases disposed of during the period in question was only marginally less than the number of new cases registered.

Let me add, Sir, that the workload of the Muslim social case workers cannot be measured by numbers alone. The man-hours spent on a case vary over a wide range depending on the complexity of the case. Likewise, the interval between registration of a new case and its disposal also varies considerably.

The Member asked whether the delay in concluding a divorce proceeding was due to the shortage of manpower. The answer, again, is "No". Divorce proceedings are time-consuming, to say the least. Sir, I have not experienced any marital conflict. God forbid, No! But I think Members will agree that marital conflicts are complicated and fraught with emotions. Couples often manifest such emotional distress by resorting to assaults, child neglect, financial irresponsibility and a host of other irresponsible actions and behaviour. It is therefore the duty of the Muslim social case workers to understand and help couples gain insight into the causal factors of their problems and establish rapport so as to assist them in settling their differences and find workable solutions. This takes time - a long time, if I may add. Here I would like to stress, Sir, that the sole purpose of counselling is to save marriages, wherever possible, and not to expedite divorce proceedings.

If efforts towards reconciliation fail, then the couples are referred to a Kathi for registration of the divorce. However, all claims such as maintenance and custody have to be mutually agreed upon before a divorce is registered. If no agreement can be reached, the case is then referred to the Syariah Court for hearing and decision will be made by the President of the Court. These are the various steps and procedures which have to be carried out before a case comes up for hearing by the President of the Syariah Court.

I have also sought the opinion of the President of the Syariah Court on whether or not the two Muslim social case workers are heavily loaded with work as alleged by the Member for Telok Blangah. The President is satisfied that the two Muslim social case workers can cope with their present case load. My Ministry is monitoring the incidence of new disputes and their disposal. I would like to assure the hon. Member for Telok Blangah that if there is evidence that the number of new disputes is growing so rapidly that the quality of the service rendered by the two Muslim social case workers is likely to decline, we will consider appointing more Muslim social case workers.

Let me now turn to some of the points raised by the Member for Kampong Kembangan. I have taken note of his suggestions that only proper persons are to be appointed by MUIS to serve on mosque management committees; that MUIS should also oversee and upgrade the kind of activities conducted by mosques; and MUIS ensures that the management committees of mosques have the required level of competency in the management of financial accounts. I will certainly ask MUIS officials to look into them. On the management of mosques' financial accounts, I think the Member for Kampong Kembangan is aware that MUIS has so far conducted two courses on accounting procedures for the benefit of mosque officials. These courses were organized with a view to raising the level of competency of mosque officials in the management of mosques' funds.

Sir, I fully agree with the hon. Member for Kampong Kembangan that young Muslim professionals should be asked to serve on mosque management committees. I would even go one step further: that they also be asked to serve on the numerous other committees under the MUIS umbrella. As a start, MUIS will be glad to consider any recommendation that the Member for Kampong Kembangan as well as the other Members of this House may have of young and dedicated Muslim professionals who wish to serve on these committees.

Next, the Member has enquired on the long-term plans for the redevelopment of mosques in the Central Business District. Here, I would like to define the Central Business District as that area which comes under the Area Licensing Scheme (ALS). If we accept that definition, Sir, then there are altogether six mosques in this area. They are (1) Masjid Moulana Md. Ali in Market Street (which, according to the hon. Member for Kampong Kembangan would be raised by the hon. Member for Radin Mas later), (2) the Masjid Abrar in Telok Ayer Street, (3) Masjid Jamae in South Bridge Road, (4) Masjid Omar Kampong Melaka in Omar Road, (5) Masjid Dawoodi Bohra in Hill Street, and (6) Masjid Haji Mohd Salleh in Palmer Road, next to the Habib Noh shrine. I will give my comments on Masjid Moulana Md. Ali together with the points which the Member for Radin Mas may want to raise later on.

Of the five remaining mosques, Masjid Abrar in Telok Ayer Street and Masjid Jamae in South Bridge Road have been declared monuments by the Preservation of Monuments Board. Masjid Omar Kampong Melaka in Omar Road, though not a monument in the eyes of the Preservation of Monuments Board, will not be affected by urban redevelopment of the areas surrounding it. I have been assured of this. In fact, in a written reply to a query by the Ministry of Social Affairs, the Ministry of National Development has assured my Ministry that "as redevelopment plans in the area do not affect the mosque, it will therefore remain." On account of this assurance, the mosque is currently undergoing major renovations at an estimated cost of $3/4 million. However, I would like to assure the Member for Kampong Kembangan that MUIS is still appealing to the Preservation of Monuments Board to have the mosque preserved.

The other mosque in the Central Business District is the Masjid Dawoodi Bohra in Hill Street. For the information of the House, Sir, this mosque is sandwiched between the TAS building and the Chinese Chamber of Commerce and Industry building in Hill Street. Again, Sir, the Ministry of Social Affairs has been told that this mosque may not be affected by urban redevelopment. The land on which it stands is just too narrow for any urban redevelopment project.

Unfortunately, Sir, at this point of time I cannot predict the future of Masjid Haji Mohd Salleh in Palmer Road with the same degree of certainty as I have in the case of the other mosques I have discussed.

If we go slightly outside the ALS area, Sir, in particular to the Jalan Sultan/North Bridge Road area, we find three other mosques, namely, Masjid Sultan in North Bridge Road, Masjid Hajjah Fatimah in Java Road and Masjid Malabar Muslim Jamaath in Victoria Street. Both Masjid Sultan and Masjid Hajjah Fatimah have been declared monuments by the Preservation of Monuments Board. But, like Masjid Mohd Salleh in Palmer Road, I cannot at this juncture say very much on Masjid Malabar Muslim Jamaath in Victoria Street. 4.15 p.m.

Since the number of mosques in the Central Business District that may be affected by urban redevelopment is small, there is, therefore, no pressing need to have long-range plans for their replacement, unlike the construction of new mosques in HDB new towns for which MUIS has a definite mosque building programme for this decade. I had, on many occasions in the recent past, announced that MUIS would be building eight new mosques in this decade under Phase II of its mosque building programme. The question of replacement of any mosque in the Central Business District affected by urban redevelopment will, therefore, be tackled piecemeal.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I wish to thank the Hon. Acting Minister for his reply. However, I also wish to make a clarification, Sir, nowhere did I mention that the cases are divorce cases or otherwise and that they should end in divorce. Sir, I am an optimist, and therefore I said that the cases should be dealt with quickly, i.e. resolved amicably; in other words they should be reconciled.

As regards the post which MSD has recommended and which apparently the Ministry of Finance has turned down, may I suggest that the Hon. Acting Minister tackle the problem at source. In other words, he should take the Ministry of Finance by its "Hon" (horn). On that note I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar: ( In Tamil): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I wish to speak on the mosque at Market Street, that is the Masjid Moulana Mohd Ali. Members of the management committee of that mosque have appealed to me to ask the Acting Minister to consider the problem which this mosque is facing. For a long time the Muslims, especially the businessmen and those who are working in town, have been going to that mosque for their prayers. A big bank has purchased the property recently. The management of that bank and the management committee of the mosque have made proposals and counter proposals, but they have not yet come to any settlement. According to the proposal, an alternative place below the car park will be given to the Muslims for their prayers. If a place above the car park can be given, it will be acceptable to the Muslims. I would, therefore, request the Minister to intervene and bring about a workable solution.

The Chairman: I do not know how mosques come into this amendment. Anyway, Dr Ahmad Mattar.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, the site at Market Street referred to by the hon. Member for Radin Mas on which Masjid Moulana Md. Ali stands, belongs to the Singapore Muslim League. The United Overseas Bank is contemplating buying it over from the Muslim League. Negotiations between the parties concerned are still going on. Amongst other things, the Mosque Management Committee have been having discussions with the bank on the replacement site for the mosque. MUIS officials are involved in these discussions. As pointed out by the Member for Radin Mas, the bank has offered the Mosque Management Committee the basement of the complex to be built as a replacement for the mosque. However, I have been told that this offer has been turned down by the Mosque Management Committee.

It is a little premature for me to disclose at this point of time what has actually transpired in subsequent discussions. Suffice for me to say that, in deference to the wishes of the Mosque Management Committee, the bank is actively looking for an alternative site. No firm agreement has yet been reached among the parties, and the discussions are still continuing.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar: ( In Tamil): Sir, I wish to thank the Minister for his reply. The PAP Government in Singapore is a secular Government. All over the world, people praise the PAP Government. The whole world commends the leadership of our Prime Minister. People like me can speak in Tamil. Others can speak in Mandarin. There is freedom of speech and writing under the Government of our Prime Minister, Mr Lee Kuan Yew. I have faith in this Government. The people too have faith in this Government. In the last elections, all the PAP candidates were returned to power. Mr Speaker has heard my Tamil speech. Members have heard it and the Ministers have also heard it patiently. If they have any difficulties, I hope they will excuse me and welcome my comments and ideas. The views of the Back- benchers, as we are described by SBC, should also be heard. The PAP candidates have been elected by the people. We are not scared of the opposition parties. No one should feel that way because we have been working hard to assist every section of the community. The PAP leaders come from the workers. The PAP members have gone through the colonial period as well as the Lim Yew Hock Government. I would like to point out that we have gone through many hard times. People have given credit to us for our hard work. We, therefore, occupy all the 75 seats in this House.

Before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to thank Mr Speaker as well as the Members. I hope the Minister will come out with a workable solution to this problem.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I would assure the hon. Member for Radin Mas that the Ministry of Social Affairs will look into this matter.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar: ( In Tamil): Sir, I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-05 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I just want to tell the Hon. Minister that I am not too happy with his reply to the hon. Member for Khe Bong on the subject of public assistance allowance.

Let me quote to the Minister the case of a widow who is a recipient of a public assistance allowance. In struggling to support her young dependent children, she became a washerwoman or a hawker stall assistant, earning a meagre salary. Of course, if the investigation officer were to discover that, the public assistance allowance will be stopped. I think this is very unkind.

Sir, in view of the fact that, as the Minister has said, a committee has been formed to look into appeals, I would urge this committee or the Hon. Minister himself to seriously consider the appeals made by Members of Parliament on behalf of the constituents who are public assistance recipients. We hope these appeals will be favourably considered and considered quickly.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Mr Speaker, Sir, thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak. I fully support the sentiments expressed by my good Friend, the hon. Member for Changi. I have had on various occasions mentioned in this House that there should be a constant review of public assistance or dole, as it is often described for financial assistance to those who are less fortunate. Let me give one example to prove the point that we can afford to pay out a little more. This example may not be the best case but it is a strong case here.

Sir, I remember that in the first URA sale of land in the late 1960s, perhaps 1967 or 1968, some $10 million were netted. And in the latest URA sale, I am reliably informed that some $1,000 million, that is, $1 billion, have been raised. Surely, Sir, we are rich enough to pay the less fortunate in our society a little bit more. As with the case indicated by the Member for Changi, the widow has to raise her own family and as she receives only a meagre sum in public assistance, she has to work as a washer-woman or as a hawker's assistant. But the assistance was withdrawn when the Department found out. I think this is too much.

This House has heard about the generosity of the Hon. Minister for Finance in his handouts. I would suggest to the Hon. Acting Minister for Social Affairs to find a quick way through to the generosity of the Hon. Minister for Finance. 4.30 p.m.

Mr Goh Chee Wee (Boon Lay): Sir, if you look at the Budget under the Public Assistance Programme, you will note that the direct cost of running this programme is about $900,000. If we add the administrative overheads, including the salary of the Hon. Minister, the total cost of running this programme is well in excess of a million dollars. Sir, it costs the Government more than a million dollars, mainly for the payment of staff salaries in the Ministry of Social Affairs, to administer the reliefs of $3.4 million. With the gradual reduction of the public assistance allowance in the Budget, I think the main beneficiary of the public assistance scheme is not the needy public but the staff of the Ministry of Social Affairs.

Sir, in line with the Government's policy to increase productivity, may I suggest to the Hon. Minister to examine ways to increase productivity in the public assistance department, i.e. minimum input, maximum output. It will be desirable to cut down the number of staff, cut down the red tape, do less queries, ask less questions, save some costs and pass the benefit to the public who need assistance.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, my answer to all these queries will be a very simple one. We have certainly taken note of the views, expressions and unhappiness of the Member for Changi, suggestions by the Member for Punggol, and comments by the Member for Boon Lay. As I have mentioned earlier on, the PARC has just been formed a week ago. We only met yesterday for the first time. This is a new committee. I think we should give it a chance to get down to its task first before we pass judgment on its performance.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, we will give this committee a fair chance to prove itself. But, on the other hand, does the Hon. Minister not know that this appeal has been argued year in and year out in this House. Let us get on with the work. Please do not come here and say, "We have taken note of your comments and we will do something about it." Let us translate it into - - -

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Action!

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Into money. Let us translate it into money please because the less fortunate need it.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, action must come first before the money can come out. One of the reasons why the PARC was formed was because a lot of complaints have been aired in this Chamber and a lot of complaints have been sent to me by Members.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: It has been long overdue!

Dr Ahmad Mattar: One year.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Mr Speaker, Sir, let us hope the PARC will consider every case very seriously, and let us hope that the Members of this Committee do not sit around and just drink coffee but to give the benefits to the needy people.

On that note, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Tan Soo Khoon -

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VD-01 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment (5), Mr Tan Soo Khoon is not here. Amendment (6), Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head V of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, I shall confine my comments to the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS). May I at the outset congratulate the Majlis for the good work it is doing and doing it with increasing tact and patience. But of late, I am of the opinion that the Majlis is feeling the manpower constraint in wanting to embark on new areas of work. The present strength of 12 Majlis members is not adequate compared to the volume of work it has to do and much more work it has to fulfil. My shortlived experience and service, regretfully, with the Majlis strengthens my belief that in order not to overburden the Majlis members who are serving part-time anyway, the Ministry should seriously consider increasing the present strength of the Majlis.

The second point I wish to touch on is in regard to its present premises. For a statutory body like MUIS, the present premises that it is occupying is in no way comparable to the premises of other statutory bodies. The conference room, to cite an example, though functional, is dull and drab. It is ironical that some of the conference rooms of the satellite mosques which MUIS helped to build are far superior to that of the MUIS itself. Foreign visitors, including important government dignitaries from Islamic countries, very often visit MUIS. I am therefore interested to know whether the Ministry has future plans for MUIS to have its own premises.

The other point that I wish to touch on is with regard to the appointment of an accountant. But since the Minister has pre-empted it with his answer to the first Member who raised the point, I only wish to raise the first two points.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Administration of Muslim Law Act provides for the appointment of not less than seven members to the Majlis from a list of nominees proposed by Muslim associations. As there are only the prescribed minimum of seven such members on the Majlis now, the number of members can be increased, if necessary. From the point of view of the workload and responsibilities of MUIS, Sir, what is important is not so much the number of members of the Majlis but the ability of the members to devote more of their time to the work of MUIS. As I have stressed in my reply to the hon. Member for Kampong Kembangan earlier on, what MUIS needs more urgently are more persons who are willing to serve on mosque management committees and a host of other committees under the MUIS umbrella. I would therefore look forward to receiving nominations from the hon. Member for Kampong Ubi as well as other Members of this House. But the Member's suggestion that the number of members on the Majlis be increased will certainly be looked into.

The hon. Member's proposal that MUIS should function from its own premises is a good one. However, there are two major obstacles. The first is to find a suitable site for the MUIS office and the second is to accumulate sufficient funds for the new building. Sir, the utilization of MUIS' funds is governed strictly by Islamic laws. Consideration will therefore have to be given to the setting up of a special fund for the building project. This matter will have to be studied very carefully in view of the high cost of land and the rising costs of construction.

However, Sir, for the benefit of the Member for Kampong Ubi and the Members of this House too, I am pleased to announce that the MUIS secretariat in Empress Place will be renovated by October this year at a cost of $300,000. When completed, the Secretariat will be more in keeping with a modern office.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: Sir, on the answers given by the Minister, there are encouraging signs that things are going for the better. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $40,623,630 for Head V ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $6,750,400 for Head V ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I shall now deal with the remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement. In respect of the Main Estimates, they are Heads B, C, D, E, F and G.

I propose to take those heads of expenditure en bloc.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Main Estimates on page 21 of Paper Cmd. 9 of 1981 stand part of the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April,1981 to 31st March, 1982," put, and agreed to.

The Chairman: In respect of the Development Estimates, the remaining Head is Head E.

The sum of $100,000 for Head E ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Question, "That the sum of $5,199,036,780 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expen- diture for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1981 to 31st March, 1982, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1981," put and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $5,044,207,600 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1981 to 31st March, 1982, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1981," put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

The Minister for Trade and Industry and Minister for Health (Mr Goh Chok Tong): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply have come to certain resolutions.

First Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $5,199,036,780 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1981 to 31st March, 1982, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1981."

Second Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $5,044,207,600 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1981 to 31st March, 1982, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1981."

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolutions."

Question put and agreed to.

Resolutions accordingly agreed to.