MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1983 TO 31ST MARCH, 1984

3.04 p.m.

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [7th Allotted Day],

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head V (cont.) -

Resumption of Debate on Question [23rd March, 1983],

"That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VB-02 Object Group 3110 of the Main Estimates." - [Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri].

Question again proposed.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Mr Speaker, Sir, since I have a related amendment No. (4)*, may I speak now?

The Chairman: Yes, you can carry on.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Mr Speaker, Sir, let me first say that I support the proposals made by the Member for Kampong Ubi yesterday. I would like to ask the Minister whether there will be an improvement in the services to be pro- vided by the Majlis Ugama Islam to the Muslims who will be performing their Haj this year. Could the Minister also indicate what are the implications of the Saudi Government's new conditions on travel and the grant of visas to pilgrims?

Finally, I would like to ask the Minister to indicate how MUIS monitors the performance of the local syehs or pilgrim brokers, and whether they are providing satisfactory services to the pilgrims under their charge. I would like to suggest that MUIS considers an arrangement with the Saudi Arabian embassy here to draw up a list of recommended syehs in Makkah and our local pilgrim brokers should only engage those syehs in Makkah who are on this list.

Encik Abbas Abu Amin (Pasir Panjang): ( In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am taking this opportunity to congratulate the Muslim Religious Council of Singapore (MUIS), the supreme body in Singapore administering Muslim religious affairs in the Republic, for its judiciousness in the discharge of its ever-increasing role and functions from year to year.

MUIS's ability and capability to tackle its multifarious activities, such as the Mosque Building Fund, Fitrah (Tithes) collections and matters pertaining to the performance of the Haj pilgrimage, are already public knowledge and recognized by the Muslim community in particular.

I understand that MUIS is presently considering and planning several new projects which will benefit the Muslim community in the Republic. One of the feasibility studies undertaken by MUIS is the construction of an Islamic Centre. Undoubtedly the construction of the proposed Islamic Centre will receive a good response from the Muslim community in Singapore, particularly from existing Muslim associations and organizations throughout the length and breadth of Singapore.

In the light of the foregoing, I seek further information from the Hon. Acting Minister for Social Affairs concerning the Singapore Islamic Centre. First, what is the basic objective of the proposed Islamic Centre, and how could it further enhance the bonds of harmony between the Muslim organizations in Singapore for the furtherance of missionary activities? Secondly, what paraphernalia and facilities will be available at this Centre, and eventually who will be administering the Islamic Centre?

Finally, where is the source of the Construction Fund and, subsequently, the source of the fund for the Administration of the Islamic Centre? I hope the Hon. Acting Minister can furnish the information that I seek.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, first, may I congratulate the Muslim Religious Council (MUIS) for their good work done to-date? An example that I want to highlight is its Annual Report for 1981. Sir, I am saying this as a student of accountancy and not based on hearsay or anything like that. The Report is both informative and accurate. So they should keep up this good work. MUIS has been making records. But then records are made to be broken. Such is life.

Sir, in speaking on this amendment, I would like to do three things: make an inquiry, submit an appeal, and propose a suggestion.

Enquiry

Computers is now a buzz word in Sing- apore and computerization is moving ahead in all areas. I notice that certain aspects of Muslim services have been computerized. For this reason, would the Minister elaborate on the progress of the computerization programme for Muslim services, particularly in Fitrah collections and related areas and whether he is satisfied with the progress.

Appeal

Sir, to a Muslim, the Haj or the pilgrimage to Makkah is a divine command and must be made at least once in a life-time for any Muslim who is financially and physically able to do so. At the same time, while performing the Haj, the Singaporean pilgrims are also proud of our country and of the amenities and facilities provided by the Muslim Religious Council (MUIS). This fact is apparent and is written on their faces in Makkah while they are there and when they safely arrive in Singapore after performing the Haj.

However, many of them asked me why we are not using our national carrier, Singapore Airlines, to transport the pilgrims to Jeddah. Sir, I could feel their sense of pride in Singapore and SIA, but I could also sense their disappointment when told that it is purely for economic reasons that our pilgrims are not travelling on our national carrier, SIA. There has been much talk about how good SIA is and how competitive it is with the international carriers. However, I find it difficult to believe that the SIA's quotation for the journey to and from Jeddah for our pilgrims all these years is much higher than the other international carriers' quotations. To top it all, SIA is unduly fastidious with conditions which are totally uncalled for. I questioned why SIA is not competitive in its quotation. I questioned why SIA has to lay down all these conditions when the other international airlines do not. I am not asking SIA to quote below what the other airlines are quoting, although it would appear to be in order as quoting on a cost recovery basis would be in line with a contribution to the national pride and identity of Singaporeans. Sir, I am not asking SIA to make a loss. All I am asking is, can SIA not make less or no profit on the Haj flights? Furthermore, I wish to point out that the Haj occurs only once a year. I do not think SIA would go bust on the Haj flights. I do not think they will lose their shirts, neither do our Singapore Girl lose her smile.

Now that the Saudi government has rightly taken the stand for the benefit of the pilgrims that only the national carrier or the Saudi Airlines can carry pilgrims, I hope SIA will not take this as a chance to be almost monopolistic. I, therefore, appeal to SIA to reconsider the position and it would be greatly appreciated and would put Singapore's national identity firmly in the minds of our pilgrims. I would also urge the Minister to use his good offices to assist MUIS in the negotiation. Suggestion

Sir, in the Minister's recent constituency tour, he mentioned in reply to a question that a scheme to assist Muslims to save in order to perform the Haj is being considered. First, I must congratulate the Minister for considering such a well appreciated scheme. In this respect, we are lucky that we have a good neighbour who has a great wealth of experience and expertise in such a scheme. This good neighbour is our closest ASEAN neighbour, Malaysia.

Sir, Malaysia has a very successful scheme which they have perfected to a 'T'. They have tuned it to a fine art. This scheme is known as Lembaga Urusan Tabung Haji (LUTH) or popularly known as Tabung Haji.

Therefore, I suggest that we should learn as much as we can from Malaysia and I am sure they would be most happy to share their experiences of their Tabung Haji. I know that due to prevailing conditions, we may not be able to implement the scheme in toto but with the usual Singaporean ingenuity, I am confident that we could modify the scheme to suit our situation. Towards this end, I feel that MUIS should consider sending a team to Malaysia to learn more of their project.

At the same time, we can also learn what other good things that they may be implementing to enhance our own Muslim services, e.g. maybe the Islamic bank. This would in turn lead to even better and closer relationship with our ASEAN neighbour. We have been looking west and we have been looking east for science and technology. Now, I think it is time we should consider looking north to our Malaysian neighbour to learn from their experiences in Muslim services in particular, their Tabung Haji scheme. We may also look south to another ASEAN neighbour, Indonesia, for a mutual exchange of ideas to improve our Muslim services.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff (Kaki Bukit): ( In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to add to what has already been expressed by my colleagues regarding the Haj services organized by MUIS. At the outset, allow me to extend my appreciation and congratulations to MUIS for the initiative and vigour on the part of the MUIS officials in discharging their tasks with perseverance and dedication, particularly the medical officers and nurses for the services rendered to the Singapore pilgrims last year in Makkah, Medina and Mina. They fulfilled their duties par excellence, having regard to the fact that the holy land was acutely congested and the difficult conditions under which they had to work. May Allah shower them with His blessings for their good work. 3.15 p.m.

MUIS has rented two rooms for use as a clinic located in Makkah where the Haj pilgrims gather. As has been suggested by the Member for Kampong Ubi, it is desirable to secure a much larger area for the medical officers and nurses to do their work. As the number of Haj pilgrims from Singapore is about 2,000 yearly and they do not live at the same place in the Holy land, it is considered adequate to provide only one clinic, but it should be sufficiently large in size and be centrally located and within easy reach of the pilgrims. The clinic should be adequately staffed and provided with sufficient medical supplies.

Since the medical officers are required to visit sick pilgrims, there is therefore a need, as suggested by the Member for Kampong Ubi, for a vehicle to be provided specifically to the medical unit. Last year, I discovered that the medical officers travelled in the same bus used by the pilgrims to move around; for instance, from the airport to Makkah. As they carry medical supplies and other paraphernalia, it is preferable that they are provided with a chartered vehicle for their exclusive use. Whatever suggestions are made to improve the Haj services in the Holy land, I think these can be translated into action only if MUIS has the necessary funds.

According to MUIS financial statement of accounts as contained in its 1981 Annual Report, MUIS spent $29,222 for pilgrimage affairs. If the number of pilgrims is about 2,000, the provision for each pilgrim works out to only $15. I hope that the provision for pilgrimage affairs can be raised. I would like to draw the attention of the Hon. Acting Minister that the provision made to the Singapore Sports Council for inter-constituency sports amounted to $341,250.

The Acting Minister for Social Affairs (Dr Ahmad Mattar): Mr Speaker, Sir, we are debating Muslim services and not the Sports Council.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Compare the provision for sports which is $50 per person but for the Haj pilgrims it is only $15 per person. I recommend that this provision be further increased in order to enhance the Haj services in the Holy land.

According to newspaper reports, as of this year all prospective Haj pilgrims are required to register their names with MUIS and they will be issued visas by the Saudi Arabia's Charge d'Affaires in Singapore and further they will be transported to the Holy land by either Saudi Arabia's national airline or Singapore International Airlines. Hopefully, these new regulations will benefit and streamline as well as upgrade the management of Haj pilgrimage by MUIS for the good of all prospective Haj pilgrims.

Can the Hon. Acting Minister give an assurance that these new regulations will not inhibit or burden the Muslim community from performing the Haj pilgrimage this year and will not result in increased costs or expenditure all round?

From the verbal complaints that I received from the Haj pilgrims who returned to the country and also from my personal observations whilst I was in the Holy land last year, I concluded that the role played by the Sheikh Hajis or pilgrim brokers in Singapore and also in Makkah and Medina will determine how the pilgrims will fare during their sojourn in the Holy land. Therefore, the requirement that all Sheikh Hajis must register with and obtain licences from MUIS is most welcome in order that the organization of Haj pilgrimage can be further enhanced.

I would like to know what are the conditions attached to the licences to be issued to people aspiring to be Sheikh Hajis or pilgrim brokers. I hope that those who eventually qualify to become Sheikh Hajis will comprise people with sufficient experience and can be depended upon to provide good services and have contacts with Sheikh Hajis in the Holy land in whom we can put our trust.

May I refer to the suggestion by the Member for Telok Blangah concerning the setting up of the Tabung Haji or the Haj Fund. I remember vividly that in 1970, 1972 until 1974, in the course of reading Hansards, the intention to set up the Tabung Haji was discussed and debated in this House. And if the same intention persists, I request that the Hon. Acting Minister give an indepth consideration before going ahead with the proposal because it is vital that we earn the confidence of the community towards MUIS, so that whatever we want to do can be carried out and the objectives realized.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Chairman, Sir, first of all, I would like to thank the Members for Kampong Ubi, Geylang Serai, Pasir Panjang, Telok Blangah and Kaki Bukit for the accolades they have given to the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS). MUIS will do its very best to give Muslims in Singapore the services they deserve.

Sir, as most of the speakers have touched on pilgrimage arrangements for this year's Haj, I shall attempt a general reply not only to all the points they have raised but also on other aspects of the arrangements which they and the Muslims in Singapore ought to know. First of all, let me deal with one other issue raised by the hon. Member for Kampong Ubi.

Sir, the Member wants to know the reason for the increase in grant to MUIS for FY 83. The grant to MUIS for FY 83 is $623,000. This is $178,000 or 40% more than the grant given to MUIS in FY 82. The Expenditure On Manpower (EOM) takes up $391,800, an increase of $63,100 or 19% over the FY 82 allocation. The Other Operating Expenditure (OOE) amounts to $231,200, an increase of $115,200 or 99%.

The increase in the grant to MUIS for EOM is the result of the revision of staff salaries, the consolidation of NWC awards and the upgrading of one post of Clerical Officer to Executive Officer to be departmentally designated "Assistant Mufti".

There are several reasons for the large increase in the grant for OOE. $58,000 has been approved for MUIS to publish a book on Muslims in Singapore for distribution internationally. $10,000 has been allocated for MUIS to rent a room in Makkah for use as a Medical Clinic for pilgrims, and $18,000 will be spent on a Word Processor. Another $6,600 has been approved for the maintenance of the official car provided for the use of the President of MUIS.

Sir, the Member for Pasir Panjang wants a clarification on the objectives of the proposed Islamic Centre to be developed by MUIS. He also wants to know how best the Centre, when built, can help Muslim organizations in Singapore, how it will be financed and how to ensure that the Centre will be properly utilized by the Muslim public.

Sir, for the past one and a half decades, Muslims in Singapore have experienced problems in getting a suitable venue for religious functions involving large numbers of participants. They have expressed the need for an Islamic Centre so that major functions sponsored by local Muslim organizations could be centralized at a place which they can proudly call their own. MUIS is aware of the need for an Islamic Centre and after many years of exploring the proposal to build one, has finally decided that there is a strong case for one to be built for use by members of the Muslim community in Singapore. MUIS was successful in obtaining a piece of land behind the Muhajirin Mosque at Braddell Road for the proposed Centre.

How can the Centre help the Muslim organizations in Singapore? The Islamic Centre, Sir, will have a multi-purpose hall, auditorium, lecture rooms for conferences, seminars, training courses, talks, forums, etc. The Centre will also serve the general educational and other social needs of Muslim organizations as there will be meeting rooms, office spaces for rental, guest rooms, Quran study rooms and library. The provision of guest rooms will help solve accommodation problems encountered by Muslim organizations when inviting foreign Muslim religious dignitaries to give lectures in Singapore. Non- political organizations can also apply to make use of the Centre's facilities for their activities or functions on payment of a fee.

It is hoped that the Centre will become the focal point for all major "dakwah" activities in the Republic. With such activities centralized in the Islamic Centre, it is expected that there will be closer rapport among Muslim organizations in future. There will be a management committee made up of experienced Muslim personnel to ensure that the Centre is properly utilized, administered and viable.

When will the Islamic Centre be ready? Sir, a firm of architects has been appointed by MUIS to design the Centre and execute the project. Discussions have been held between MUIS officials and the architect concerned and plans have been drawn up for the proposed Centre. These will be submitted to the relevant authorities for approval and construction will commence as soon as the plans are approved. The project is expected to be completed in 1985.

How will the Islamic Centre be financed? The proposed Centre will cost about $5 million. Presently, MUIS has about $3 million to meet part of the construction cost. MUIS will obviously have to work hard to raise the balance required.

How to ensure that the Islamic Centre is properly utilized by the Muslim public? Sir, the objective of building the Islamic Centre is to place its facilities at the disposal of non-political Muslim organizations. A management committee will be formed to ensure that the Centre is properly utilized and that there is a fair allocation of its facilities to the Muslim public who apply to make use of them for their functions. 3.30 p.m.

Next, I shall turn to the issues raised by the hon. Member for Telok Blangah. First of all, the Member wants to know if I am satisfied with the computerization programme of the Muslim services. He then appeals to the Singapore Airlines to lower its fare to Jeddah so that pilgrims can fly SIA for their Haj. Finally, the Member suggests that we should learn from our neighbouring country about the scheme to facilitate Muslims to perform the Haj. But, first, let me deal with the computerization programme of the Muslim services.

Sir, a new format was adopted for the computerization of the "fitrah" records in 1980. Each year, before letters are issued to heads of households advising them of the amount of "fitrah" they have to contribute, the records of those whose particulars have changed in the course of the year, are first updated. 195,957 particulars stored in the computer in 1980 were updated in 1981. The "fitrah" records have to be constantly updated because of changes in the particulars of "fitrah" payers. A major exercise was carried out recently to change the addresses of all Muslims living in high-rise buildings following Government's decision to re-number highrise buildings. Plans are also in hand to computerize the records of the Registry of Muslim Marriages and the Syariah Court. It is expected that the system will be implemented towards the end of this year. Computerization of these records will help in a faster retrieval of information and more timely generation of data and reports for management use.

To answer the question from the hon. Member for Telok Blangah, I am satisfied with the progress of the computerization programme in respect of the Muslim services.

On his suggestion that we should learn from neighbouring countries, I can only say that MUIS is always prepared to consider schemes which could be adapted to suit the needs of Muslims in Singapore and this includes Tabung Haji of Malaysia.

Now I shall turn to the favourite subject of pilgrimage arrangements, but before I proceed to answer the points raised by hon. Members I would like to inform the rest of the House what this pilgrimage arrangement is all about.

Sir, from this year onwards, all pilgrims going on Haj will be required to register with MUIS before Haj visas can be issued by the Saudi Arabian embassy here, and have to travel either with SIA or the Saudi Arabian Airline (SAUDIA). They will not be allowed to travel with any other airline. In other words, Sir either they travel with their national airline (which is SIA in the case of Singapore pilgrims), or with SAUDIA. This is a requirement of the Saudi Arabian Government and is applicable to all pilgrims the world over.

Having briefly stated the new scheme introduced by the Saudi Arabian Government with effect from this year's Haj, I shall now attempt to answer the points raised by hon. Members. I shall divide the subject into a number of broad headings. First, benefits of the new arrangement to Muslims in Singapore. Sir, the benefits under this new arrangement are:

(a) All pilgrims will pay the same return airfare agreed to with the two airlines. The fare for this year will be $2,100. MUIS will need to work closely with only the two airlines on matters affecting travel arrangements for pilgrims.

(b) As all pilgrims will have to register with MUIS before they can obtain their visas from the Saudi Embassy, MUIS will know the exact number of pilgrims performing the Haj this year and in subsequent years.

(c) In cases of death, MUIS can expeditiously relay the news to the relatives or next of kin whose addresses will now be known to MUIS through the registration.

(d) MUIS will be able to decide the number of medical and nursing personnel required to take care of the Singapore pilgrims in the Holy Land and the amount of medical supplies that the team will have to bring along with them.

(e) Pilgrims travelling either by SIA or SAUDIA will fly direct to Jeddah with a short stopover in either Dhahran in the case of SIA or Riyadh in the case of SAUDIA. They will no longer have to disembark at Bangkok or any other city enroute to catch a connecting flight, which they had to do previously when they flew other airlines.

The question is, will this new directive by the Saudi Arabian Government cause inconvenience and pose problems for the pilgrims? Sir, MUIS does not envisage that there will be any inconvenience caused to pilgrims because of their having to travel by SIA or SAUDIA this year. SIA has had experience in transporting MUIS pilgrims on the Haj from 1975 to 1978. MUIS was satisfied with the in-flight services rendered by SIA during that period. The Airline had shown that it was sensitive to the requirements of the pilgrims especially in the food provided, in the seating arrangements on board for families and relatives travelling together, and in the provision of as many Muslim cabin crew as possible. As SAUDIA is the national airline of the Saudi Government, it is likely that facilities at Jeddah Airport will be readily available to them.

Next question, can MUIS cope with the handling of such large numbers of pilgrims? So far 557 persons have registered with MUIS to go on the Haj this year. More are expected to register in the coming months.

MUIS is confident that it will be able to take care of the larger number of pilgrims this year with the experience gained in previous years. Although the number of pilgrims who joined the MUIS-sponsored flights in 1982 was only 675, the actual number of Singapore pilgrims taken care of by MUIS in the Holy Land was about 2,300. The increase in the workload for MUIS this year will be in the registration of pilgrims, seeing to their inoculation and other preparations before departure. The workload of MUIS staff in Jeddah and in Makkah, Mina and Madinah, the three Holy Cities, will not be increased much because MUIS has been taking care of all the Singapore pilgrims in the last few years, irrespective of whether they went on MUIS-sponsored flights or not.

Number of applications for pilgrim brokers' licence. Sir, 64 applications for the pilgrim brokers' licence were received by MUIS on the closing date of applications. They are being processed now by MUIS and successful applicants will be informed of the outcome next month.

MUIS will ensure that only those who have the requisite experience in pilgrimage work and who have been rendering satisfactory services in the past will be given the licence.

Will the pilgrim brokers be inconvenienced as a result of the new arrangements announced by the Saudi Arabian Government? The role of pilgrim brokers remains unchanged under the new arrangement. They will continue to provide personal service to those pilgrims who prefer to have pilgrim brokers run errands for them.

Will MUIS ensure that the number of pilgrims taken care of by any one pilgrim broker is not too large to manage? Sir, in this respect MUIS cannot prevent any Sheikh in Makkah from taking care of too large a number of pilgrims. MUIS can only appeal to our pilgrim brokers in Singapore not to engage the services of a Saudi Sheikh whom they know is unable to provide the pilgrims under their care with satisfactory accommodation, food, and transportation because he (the Saudi Sheikh) already has a large number of pilgrims under his charge. In this respect, Sir, I will ask MUIS to find out from the Saudi Embassy here whether or not it is possible for the Saudi Government to draw up a list of Sheikhs in Makkah from which pilgrim brokers in Singapore can choose, as suggested by the Member for Geylang Serai.

Have there been any adverse comments from pilgrims or pilgrim brokers about the new arrangements? The answer is no. There have been no adverse comments from Muslim members of the public on the new procedures to be adopted this year for the Haj. Pilgrims are aware that it is to their advantage to register with MUIS before going on the Haj as they will be taken care of by the medical team should they fall ill. Moreover, Sir, MUIS welfare officers are also on hand to help them should they encounter any problems during the Haj.

On the medical team of MUIS, the Member for Kaki Bukit and the Member for Kampong Ubi commented that the space used as the clinic is too small. I quite agree with them, Sir, that the medical team accompanying the pilgrims on the Haj last year did not have a large enough clinic in Makkah to work in. According to reports I have received, the space available was rather crammed for the two doctors and the four nursing officers. But I was told that the clinic was air-conditioned, which helped to relieve somewhat the crowded atmosphere in the room.

For this year, Sir, a sum of $10,000 has been approved for rental and I hope MUIS will be able to rent larger premises for use as a clinic with this increased provision. Bigger premises will ensure that there will be proper examination rooms for the doctors and a recovery room for sick pilgrims who need constant attention of the doctors and nurses.

Another facility that the medical team needs in the Holy Land as suggested by the Member for Kaki Bukit, and I think the Member for Kampong Ubi as well, is transportation. However, I have been told that there are no motor vehicle rental firms in Makkah. Nonetheless MUIS will try to find alternative ways to secure transportation for the medical team. I think I have answered all the points. 3.45 p.m.

Encik Wan Hussin Zoohri: Sir, I am encouraged by the almost point for point reply by the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Goh Chee Wee (Boon Lay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-01 of the Main Estimates.

A survey showed that only about 30% of married women in Singapore are economically active. Of the 70% who are economically inactive, most of them have indicated that child care and housework were the main reasons for their decision not to enter the workforce.

Sir, with the current shortage of manpower in Singapore and the decision to phase out foreign workers, the Government must provide all the necessary incentives and encouragement for the women to come out to work. Provision of good child care services is indeed one of the best ways to attract women to take up part-time or full-time employment. With the present high cost of employing a baby-sitter and the gradual phasing out of foreign workers, more of our women will find it rather unattractive to seek a job unless good and less expensive child care services are available.

I must say that to-date the Government has not provided sufficient support, in particular, financial support for the development of child care centres in Singapore. In Japan, for instance, the Government provides 100% of the capital cost for the setting up of public child care centres and finance 50% of the operating cost. In Singapore, the Government is taking the reverse course. As we can see from the Budget allocation, Government's financial support for child care centres is diminishing. Sir, the Government must regard its financial expenditure on child care as an investment on child development which is part of the total educational and manpower development programme with consequential social and economic benefits. Expenditure on child care must not be considered as a welfare cost, though the programme is administered under the Ministry of Social Affairs. I think it is time the Government reviewed its position and policy on child care in the light of our country's rapid social and economic development. Sir, let me give another example. In Japan, great attention was placed on the training of the child care personnel and nursery teachers.

Full-time training is available at the universities and colleges. In Singapore, needless to say, such training facilities have been given lowest priority. Training courses are only organized on an ad hoc basis.

Sir, I believe that as part of our overall strategy to develop the full potential of our scarce manpower resources and to encourage women's participation in the labour force, we must seriously examine the positive support that the Government must give for the setting up of more child care centres. May I suggest the Hon. Minister consider the following proposals:

(1) To provide full financial support for the setting up of child care centres run by non-profit making organizations and to substantially finance the operating expenditure;

(2) To provide regular training to upgrade the quality of pre-school and child care personnel; and

(3) To incorporate the planning of child care centres in new towns so that suitable sites (or even void decks at HDB estates) can be reserved for such centres.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Teo Chong Tee): Sir, first, I must say that the Government has been providing support for the development of child care centres in Singapore. In his speech, the hon. Member for Boon Lay made three suggestions. He suggested that we provide financial support for the setting up and operation of child care centres.

Sir, since July 1980, my Ministry has been reviewing the current system of subsidies to NTUC for the operation of its child care centres, the training programmes for child care centre staff, and development plans for child care centres, among others. At present, only NTUC centres receive a Government subsidy. The other voluntary organizations which run child care centres have not sought assistance from the Government for capital or recurrent costs but have relied on their own fund-raising activities to subsidize costs. I believe they have good sponsors.

Currently, subsidies to NTUC are given on a per centre basis. My Ministry has reviewed this system of granting subsidies, and is working out a system whereby subsidies would be given on a per capita basis. In considering Government subsidies for the operation of child care centres, however, my Ministry must take account of budgetary constraints. As a first step, therefore, only children attending NTUC child care centres will be considered for the proposed per capita subsidy. My Ministry will consider giving capital grants of $20,000 for each new centre set up by voluntary organizations. In fact, the NTUC has already received $60,000 for its three new centres at Ang Mo Kio, Bedok and Clementi. This will serve as an incentive to voluntary bodies, and as an indication of support from Government.

Regarding the second suggestion on regular training to upgrade the quality of pre-school and child care personnel, my Ministry is fully aware of the importance of training for child care centre personnel. We have, since 1980, enlisted the assistance of the Institute of Education in conducting child care courses for centre staff. My Ministry has also run courses on infant care. During the three-year period 1980-82, nine infant and child care courses were conducted for 214 staff.

The Institute of Education is not able to conduct more child care courses on a regular basis. The Institute's function is to train teachers, not child care staff. Nevertheless, it has gone out of its way to accommodate our requests for training in spite of its limited resources and competing priorities.

In view of the urgent staff training needs faced by the various organizations, my Ministry has undertaken the coordination of child care courses from 1983 onwards. We project that we shall be able to run at least three child care courses, and one specialized course for an estimated 100 child care staff per year. One course is already in progress.

For more advanced training, we shall have to look abroad as local expertise and facilities are very limited. My Ministry and the various organizations concerned are exploring the possibility of sending staff overseas for advanced training, with a view to forming a core of trainers who would eventually take over the training function.

Sir, on the third suggestion raised by the Member, I am pleased to inform him that my Ministry has reached agreement with the Housing and Development Board in that the Board would identify the location of suitable premises for child care centres in the newer public housing estates and to reserve such premises in the estates under construction. All new child care centres in public housing estates will be located on HDB void deck space.

The Member for Boon Lay has also made some very pertinent observations about the current status of child care service in Singapore. My Ministry is fully aware that the availability of reliable and good child care services would have an important bearing on our success in attracting women to come out to work. My Ministry is also aware that a range of services should be available to meet the special needs of children of different ages as well as parents' preferences and work commitments.

Since 1980, therefore, my Ministry has:

(i) implemented the Family Day-Care Scheme which has so far successfully made care arrangements for 1,432 children, and has built up a pool of 3,664 care-givers whose child care services are available to working mothers;

(ii) my Ministry has explored and initiated other day-care schemes, such as a Holiday Care Programme and Before-and-After School care for primary school-going children of working mothers; and

(iii) my Ministry has also actively encouraged the development of child care centres, resulting in 15 new centres being opened during the period 1981-82. By the end of 1982, the aggregate capacity of all child care centres was 2,114 which represented an increase of 93.9% over the capacity as at the end of 1980. This has improved the ratio of child care places to numbers of pre-school children from 1:300 in 1979 to 1:130 currently. My Ministry's policy with regard to the establishment of child care centres is that the centres must provide good quality child care services which would enhance the all-round development of the child.

However, we wish to point out that a woman's decision to start work is also determined by factors other than the mere availability of child care facilities. The Survey of Married Women (1979) revealed that among the economically inactive women who were prepared to work, the inducements that would motivate them to do so were: attractive wages; availability of part-time work; having relatives to look after the children; and greater flexibility in working hours. 4.00 p.m.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, I must thank the hon. Parliamentary Secretary for his positive response to the several points that I have made. On the question of financial subsidies, the Parliamentary Secretary said that the Government will provide $20,000 for the setting up of each centre. But I do hope that the Government will not only provide capital grant but also sufficient financial assistance to meet part of the running cost of the child care centres so that the staff of the centre can concentrate on improving the quality of child care service rather than waste their time on fund-raising projects. We can, of course, operate child-care centres without any form of Government subsidies, but the question is, at what cost? We can try to meet the full operating expenses by charging a higher fee for the child care service. But this goes against the policy of the NTUC to provide child care services at a cost which is within the reach of our working population and to maintain the fee at a level which our working women will continue to find it worthwhile to remain in the workforce. Sir, I do not worry for the so-called specially qualified married women. They can afford to pay higher charges. In any case, they are well taken care of by the Minister for Trade and Industry. But while the Minister for Trade and Industry is taking good care of these specially qualified married women, can I appeal to the Acting Minister for Social Affairs to take good care of those not-so-specially qualified married women? They are a bigger number.

Sir, in his reply, the hon. Parliamentary Secretary mentioned about the holiday care schemes and the before-and-after school care programmes, etc. May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary for further information on this matter?

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Mr Speaker, Sir, the point raised by the hon. Member for Boon Lay has been noted and we will look into it further. The hon. Member also wanted to know what the two projects are about. Sir, with your continued patience, allow me to elaborate or give detailed information not only for the hon. Member for Boon Lay but also for the hon. Members of the House as well.

The Chairman: You will be very brief, Mr Teo.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Yes, Sir. The holiday care programme was implemented on a pilot basis at the end of the year vacation 1982. It was jointly organized by the Ministries of Social Affairs and Education. The objectives of the holiday care programme were:

(1) to provide care for children who would otherwise be left without adequate adult supervision during the holiday period;

(2) to provide a programme of activities which would enhance the all-round development of children and also to provide guidance for appropriate and constructive use of leisure time;

(3) to organize recreational activities and individualized self-selected activities. The programme was targeted at school-going children aged 6-12 years whose parents (either both or single) are working and those who would otherwise be left without adequate adult supervision during the hours when their parents are at work. The programme was conducted over a four-week period from November to December 1982, from Mondays to Fridays from 9.00 a.m. till 5.00 p.m. each day. It was conducted at the Bedok South Primary School and the Ang Mo Kio Primary School. It catered for a total of 200 children, i.e. an enrolment of 100 children at each venue.

Regarding the second project, i.e. the before-and-after school care projects, the objectives of this project are:

(1) to provide places where children can go to during the hours before and after school when there is no adult supervision at home;

(2) to provide opportunities for the children's educational development through the provision of tutorial aid and other informal learning activities;

(3) to provide opportunities for socialization and positive relationship development among the children and between the children and the staff when the latter could serve as substitute adult models in place of the children's parents.

Sir, we have approached a voluntary organization looking after children to undertake this project. They have agreed to do so, but we would like to do a feasibility study first. When this comes about we would be pleased to inform the hon. Member for Boon Lay.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his reply. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam (Anson): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-02 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, this Subhead as set out in the Budget is for Welfare Services for the Aged, Vagrant and other Destitute Persons, and it is about them that I wish to speak. Before I come to the particular needs that I wish to bring forward to the attention of the Minister, may I make an appeal not only to the Minister but also to the Government - that the Government would make an effort not just to take a superficial view of a human being as to whether or not he is of economic worth, but to see beyond the wizened body of a destitute, an old person, a vagrant, the human dignity that was in that person and is still there, as a child of God, and that that person, whether he is economically productive or not, still needs our compassion and care as a human being.

Sir, on his last ministerial rounds on Sunday, I think the Minister mentioned there were adequate homes for the aged. That may well be so. I am not going to challenge him on that. But I understand that there is an acute need for Homes and beds for the chronic sick. I am told, on good authority, that there is an acute shortage of Homes and beds to take care of the chronic sick, not just the aged who are able perhaps to look after themselves but the chronic sick who are unable to look after themselves and who need some extra care and attention from others. I am told that besides the Government chronic wards at the Woodbridge complex, the other Home that does take them is the Home for the Aged Sick. Some of them are also taken by the Little Sisters of the Poor, the Sree Narayana Mission Home for the Aged and the Kwong Wai Shiu. I am told that this is grossly inadequate, so much so that there are about 100 of them in the Woodlands Home for the Aged. I am told that the facilities at the Woodlands Home for the Aged are completely inadequate to look after the chronic sick. I was told that a year or 18 months ago there was also the problem about staffing. I do not know whether it has been alleviated to any extent. The problem then was that the attendants who were being employed to look after the chronic sick were not being paid the same rate as the hospital attendants and so the Home was not able to get proper attendants to look after the sick. Sir, I would like the Minister to say what provision is being made or will be made to look after the chronic sick in our midst.

I understand that an organization (I believe it was the Rotary) had suggested the setting up of a hospice for those who are terminally ill in Singapore. I would commend that to the Minister and to the Government. These institutions, as the House probably knows, have now been established in several countries, particularly in the UK and the United States, and they serve a very real need in looking after persons who are terminally ill. They are not hospitals but are hospices with amenable, pleasant surroundings, and with the minimum of care to look after them. Has the Government any ideas about this? I understand that the suggestion that was made was not favourably received by the Ministry. I would like to know why. What is the objection to the setting up of a hospice in Singapore for those who are terminally ill? Should the Minister not be thinking along those lines instead of burdening Homes which are already stretched to look after the chronic sick with inadequate needs and facilities.

One other thing that has been brought to my attention is the need for what has been described last year in the Budget debate as the half-way homes. These homes are for those who are not too mentally ill to be patients at the Woodbridge Hospital and yet not well enough to be looked after by their own families at home. They fall between two stools. The Woodbridge Hospital would not keep them because they are not that mentally ill that they should stay in the hospital, but they constitute a danger in the homes where they live. I am told that there are quite a number of them in one of the Homes for the Aged Sick. They constitute a problem to the other residents. I am told that this institution has appealed to the Government to take them away and look after them somewhere else. The Home has been told, "You admitted them. You look after them." It seems to me a very indifferent, casual attitude of the Government. There is a real need for Homes to look after people who perhaps are not too ill to be in a mental hospital but cannot be kept in their own homes. I would like the Minister to say whether any progress has been made. I think some mention was made at last year's Budget debate about these half-way Homes. I would like to know whether any progress has been made in setting up these half-way Homes.

Again, there is something else that I brought up last year and this again concerns institutions which are being charged, I am told, commercial rates for the supply of water, electricity and other services, Why do we have to burden them with this? They are not commercial institutions. They are doing a valuable service. Why are we not giving them the help? One other matter is that, Sir, I am told that under our law if any charitable institution or Home does not use up 80% of its donations or funds received for the year, then it will attract income tax on whatever donations it receives. I would ask the Minister to look into this. I think it is most unfair. Why should these institutions not be allowed to build up their funds if they do not spend all of it in the same year?

Sir, I would like to pay tribute in this House not only to the staff in the Government Homes but to the institutions which are rendering a much needed, valuable service to our community. They need some help from the Government. And when I say "the Government", they need help from our society. We who are able to earn our own living or are able to look after ourselves need to help them. It is no good lecturing them, as I said before, lecturing our citizens about the need to look after the aged and the sick. We have to set an example, and when I say "we", the Government must set an example because we elected the Government. The Government is responsible to the society and we expect the Government leading us to set the example so that others may follow. 4.15 p.m.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Chairman, Sir, first of all, I shall deal with the need for Homes for the Chronic Sick as touched upon by the Member for Anson. There are at present two hospital wards for the chronic sick run by the Government with a total capacity of about 150 beds. As quite rightly mentioned by the Member for Anson, in addition to these two wards, there are also other Homes for the Chronic Sick run by the Society for the Aged Sick, the Sree Narayana Mission and the Franciscan Nuns with a total capacity of about 600 beds.

In response to a call by the Ministry of Social Affairs, a number of voluntary charitable organizations are planning to set up Homes for the Aged Sick and among them are:

(1) the Phor Kar See Home. They will be setting up a Home for the Aged Sick with a capacity of 100 beds. This Home is scheduled for operation next month.

(2) Next, we have the Bible Presbyterian Welfare Services. They too are planning to set up a Home for the Aged Sick. As you know, Sir, this Aged Sick Home, to be called the Ling Kwang Home for Senior Citizens and with a capacity of about 50 beds, will be completed by the end of this year.

(3) The third group which has responded to our call is the Methodist Welfare Services. They are planning to run a Home for the Aged Sick with a capacity of about 30 beds at St. George's Road.

(4) The Lion's Club of Singapore too has responded to the call and they are planning to set up a Home for the Aged Sick with an initial capacity of about 100 beds in Toa Payoh Rise. They have assured the Ministry that they are prepared to expand as and when the need arises.

(5) The fifth group which has responded to our call is the Singapore Buddhist Welfare Services. They are setting up a Home with a capacity of about 30-40 beds to be operational in 1984.

Apart from these five voluntary charitable organizations which have positively responded to the call by the Ministry to set up Homes for the Aged Sick, the Salvation Army which is essentially a Home for the Aged has also begun to admit chronic cases into their Lee Kuo Chuan Home for the Aged.

Mr Chairman, Sir, with these various projects in the pipeline, the need for Homes for the Aged Sick will be met at least for three to four years, beyond which there is definitely going to be an increase in demand, and we will have to look into it again when the time comes.

My Ministry will closely monitor the demand for admissions to Homes for the Aged Sick and the supply situation. We will also work closely with voluntary charitable organizations on the admission criteria to prevent abuse by families who might deposit their aged sick parents to these Homes at the slightest excuse.

The Government's philosophy is that institutionalization should be resorted to only as a last resort. The Government will encourage and continue to coordinate the provision of home-help services such as the nursing services provided by the Home Nursing Foundation and the Neighbourhood Befriender Scheme. All these facilities will enable families with sick members to care for them in the family home.

Of course, there are also disabled persons with behavioural problems and they can be quite a strain on the families. These are the ones for whom families would request institutional care - particularly those families with mentally retarded members. For this category of disabled persons we have, for the time being, the Tampines Home run by the Singapore Association for Retarded Children. This Home provides a period of respite to the families concerned while their mentally retarded children or members are being looked after by the Home for a temporary period of two or three months. Once the patient recovers, he or she will be sent back to his/her family again, and then in comes a new patient to be looked after by the Home.

The Member for Anson also touched on the inmates of the Woodlands Home for the Aged. As far as the Woodlands Home for the Aged is concerned, 48 of the inmates require personal care such as changing and assisting to the toilets; these are the non-ambulant. 100 of them are semi-ambulant. Those who require nursing care will be sent to the chronic hospital at Woodbridge Hospital.

The Member also spoke of an institution which is being asked to pay for the water it consumes at commercial rates. As far as I know, an institution is usually asked to pay for the water it consumes at commercial rates only if the institution also includes a private residence e.g. home of the Matron, and a common water meter is used. But if the organization or people running the institution apply for a separate water meter for the Home, then it will not be asked to pay for the water it consumes at commercial rates. It will get some concessions.

With regard to the Member's suggestion that I take up the case of charitable organizations having to spend within the year 80% of the donations received or else the money would attract income tax, this is being looked into by my Ministry as a result of appeals from charitable organizations in Singapore.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I am obliged to the Minister. Would he touch on one or two other points that I mentioned in my speech? Is there provision of adequate staff at this Woodlands Home for the Aged to look after the 100 semi-ambulant people? There was this problem sometime ago about not getting proper attendants to deal with them.

Secondly, my suggestion about the Government thinking on the setting up of a hospice. The Minister has not said anything about that. I am told an approach was made to the Ministry by a charitable organization.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, with regard to the adequacy of staff in the Woodlands Home for the Aged, at this point of time I am satisfied with the number of staff running the Home.

The Member for Anson said that a charitable organization has applied to the Ministry to set up an hospice. That application has not come up to me yet. I do not know when this application was made by the organization. Could the Member tell me when?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I told you it was Rotary who made the suggestion. I do not know whether it is a charitable organization.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: If it is an hospice, then it should come under the purview of the Ministry of Health rather than the Ministry of Social Affairs. Anyway, if the Rotary Club had written to the Ministry of Social Affairs to set up an hospice, then it has not come up to me for consideration. So I do not know whether the Member wants to check if it was the Rotary Club and whether they had written to the Ministry of Social Affairs or to the Ministry of Health for consideration.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-03 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, this Subhead deals with welfare services for the physically and mentally disabled persons. It is largely the educaion of children who are physically and mentally disabled that I wish to speak on his amendment, Sir.

Some days ago, I referred the Minister of State of Education by way of a supplementary question to a statement made by the Chairman of the Singapore Association for the Deaf that the Ministry of Education had said that it was not responsible for the education of the children in the deaf school. The Minister of State's reply was that the Chairman could say what he liked but that the Ministry was supplying teachers to this school.

Sir, I raised this matter last year and I understand the situation has not improved. I understand that there are about 19 teachers seconded from the Ministry of Education. But of these 19 teachers, only four are qualified to teach deaf children. So if we are considering the teaching of deaf children, we have only got four trained teachers. Although the others may be qualified as teachers, they are not specially trained teachers to teach the deaf. Besides these four specially qualified trained teachers, they have the normal qualified teachers, and then they have 16 who are not even normal qualified. I can understand the frustration of the Chairman of the Association for the Deaf when he made that statement. 4.30 p.m.

Sir, I think we must face up to this problem fairly and squarely. Whose responsibility is it to educate our disabled children? Is it primarily the responsibility of the Government? Are we going to abdicate that responsibility and pass it on to institutions? I say, Sir, and I am sure the Government will agree, that it is primarily the duty of the Government. So why is the Government not taking over its responsibility for the education of not only the deaf children but also the other disabled children, for example, the mentally retarded children? I think there should be no running away from this responsibility by the Government. I am told, Sir, that not only do they lack proper teachers at this school, they also do not have the necessary equipment. The story is the same as it was last year, as it was the year before, and as it was the previous years. How long are we going to go on with this state of affairs, neglecting these children? As I said last year, Sir, their parents pay taxes. Why should not their children be given the education like any other children? It is not, as the Chairman pointed out, that they cannot be educated. They are educable. Why are we not educating them? Why are we neglecting them? Again, as he pointed out, they are of economic worth to this community and to our country if they can be educated. So why are we neglecting them? Why are we allowing them to go to waste?

Sir, I am told - I think I read it myself - that there is a plan to start a course for the training of teachers to teach disabled persons, physically or mentally disabled persons. But I am told that this institution, when it is set up, will not be the sort of institution that is set up in other countries. I am told that the certificate that they will get - this is the Ministerial statement, I understand - will not be the same as the certificate for normally qualified teachers. Sir, we do not have to go very far. We only have to go across the Causeway and what do we find there? There the Government has taken over the responsibility for the education of all children, whether they be mentally or physically disabled, or whether they be normal. I am told that they have an institution for the training of specialist teachers for teaching children who are deaf, blind, mentally retarded, or who are not like other normal children. I am told they do it by, first of all, allowing the teachers to go through the normal training course of three years, or whatever the number of years it may be. Then when they get their certificate as normal trained teachers, they spend a year outside and then go back to this institute of specialist teacher training for another year to get another certificate. Then they become specially qualified to teach the deaf or the mentally retarded or the blind. What is wrong with us doing that? Why can we not set up a proper institute to train teachers to teach the deaf?

Again I must pay tribute to those institutions which are struggling, struggling to do something for the community. And what is the Government's attitude to this? "Oh, it is your problem. It has nothing to do with us." I say, Sir, it is scandalous. They are struggling. Let us take over the responsibility from them. I am told that they do not have any speech therapist, nor do they have an audiologist to fit the hearing aids for the children. I was talking to some people from the School for the Deaf and they said that when they had to show people from other countries around they feel quite embarrassed having to point to the lack of facilities, lack of trained staff, lack of everything, to carry out their tasks. Why do you cause them this embarrassment? Why can we not set aside some of our monies to provide proper equipment for these schools; and to provide proper teachers? There is the vocational school that they run. I am told they lack even the basic furnishings, not to mention the specialist equipment.

Again, I ask, Sir, why are we doing this? These children are already under a handicap, why should they be further handicapped by us? Why should they be pushed further down into the drain? Should they not be lifted up and brought up so that they can be integrated with the rest of society and make their contributions? If you neglect them, then they are going to be a burden in their later years and that will add to the cost. So let us do something for them now so that they would not be a burden later on. But let us not just look at the problem from their economic worth. I am not suggesting that you just look at it from the economic worth. Look at it from the point of view that they are children, they are human beings, and they are entitled, as I said earlier, to our compassion, our help -

The Chairman: Your 10 minutes are up, Mr Jeyaretnam.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, as far as the Ministry of Social Affairs is concerned, we have been providing instructors to the Singapore Association for the Blind and the Singapore Association for the Deaf. In addition, Sir, we provide an annual block grant and per capita grant to meet the recurrent expenditure of the respective Associations.

As far as the Disabled Persons Section of my Ministry is concerned, Sir, it generally directs its welfare services to the 15-44 year age group, as this is the category of disabled persons who are most suitable for employment. Since the special education of disabled children comes under the purview of the Minister of Education, my colleague, the Minister of State of Education, has consented to reply to all the questions raised by the Member for Anson.

The Minister of State of Education (Dr Tay Eng Soon): Sir, I think it is quite evident from what the Member for Anson has said at great length that he did not listen to my reply to the Question for Oral Answer raised by the Member for Ayer Rajah last week. Short of taking over these special schools, physically and in every other way, the Government is indeed providing as much as it can to help these schools to function and to help their man- agement committees find the means to run these schools, and the Government will continue to do so within constraints, such as the shortage of teachers that we already face in the whole education service. But let me just reiterate for the benefit of the Member for Anson the things that are being done so that he will not feel so emotional in his plea on behalf of these schools which, as I have said, are receiving a great deal of assistance from my Ministry.

To start with, we have seconded to these schools a total of 94 teachers. I must add that this is at great cost to the Ministry because we are short of teachers, In the case of the School for the Deaf which has been the main subject of his plea, he is incorrect. He says that my Ministry has seconded 19 teachers. In fact, that School has been receiving 22 teachers for many years. And with the enrolment of 305 students, they have a very favourable pupil-teacher ratio of 14:1. We do not at all begrudge sending teachers to teach the deaf, the blind, the educationally sub-normal, the retarded, because we recognize that. We have not only provided teachers for all these schools but we have also provided physical amenities, including school buildings. Several of the schools are running in buildings which are leased by the Ministry to them at very nominal rates. I have said that if more of these schools require premises, we would be more than willing to help them look for such school buildings. In fact, at this very moment the Singapore Association for Retarded Children are getting the Griffiths Primary School from my Ministry to help them in their programme.

He talks about taxpayers' money as if children who go to these schools are not enjoying financial support in anyway from the Government. As I said in my reply to the Member for Ayer Rajah, children who go to these schools are subsidized by the Government to the extent of $1,626 per child. This is 41% higher than the subsidy that we spend on children who go to regular schools. 4.45 p.m.

Let me come to the heart of the matter which is, should the Government or should not the Government take over these schools? Quite apart from the fact that we are already providing a great deal of support for the running of these schools, I think we recognize that these schools have needs which are specialized, in many ways different from those of normal schools, and that the people in the management committees are able to bring to such schools their personal knowledge and attention which may be lost if these schools become part of a large and, in some ways, bureaucratic educational system. These schools would do better in their present position where they are independent and autonomous, where they can make their own decisions in the best interest of their student that independence and autonomy would be lost and that would be a loss for the schools.

As far as teacher training is concerned, many of our teachers who are seconded to these special schools have either received training prior to their posting to the schools or, on joining the schools, they receive additional training, quite often provided by the Association responsible for the school. The course that I mentioned, that the Institute of Education is planning to run at the request of these special schools, is to enable additional training to be provided not only for the teachers sent by the Ministry but also for the teachers whom these school themselves employ. The Associations informed us that many of the teachers that they employ lack training and would benefit from some form of training, and so the Institute of Education is working out with the Associations some form of training which would meet this need.

With these remarks, I cannot accept at all the Member's allegation that the Government is doing nothing for the special schools and that we are neglecting them. He has no basis for his remarks.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I do not think I said that the Government was not doing anything. What I am saying is that what you are doing is hardly adequate. Talking about these schools, I have said that there are only about three or four who are really qualified to teach the deaf. The rest are not qualified. The teachers may be qualified to teach normal children but not to teach disabled children. What are you doing about that? Then I ask about the course that they are going to run. Would that certificate be inferior to the certificate that is given by the Institute of Education for teachers in the teaching service? You would not get the best if you are going to give an inferior certificate.

Then I asked about the equipment that is being provided. I agree that perhaps the teaching of these disabled children should be left to some private institutions which may be able to give personal care and attention to them. I agree it may be, and I do not think they will evade their responsibilities. The society will not evade its responsibilities. But what the society does expect is that the Government, appreciating that they have come forward to help, will do its part; and this is their complaint, that the Government is not doing its part.

I have talked about the lack of equipment. Would the Minister of State agree that only two classrooms are fitted with the necessary equipment, and I am told that even there the equipment is some years old. The rest of the classrooms are not fitted with proper equipment. Why cannot we help them out and fit them with proper equipment? Why cannot we help them to get an audiologist or a speech therapist? Give them the help and they will do the work and turn out these children to be useful citizens of the community. I was not saying that you were not doing anything. My complaint is that what you are doing now is not enough by any means and there is a lot more for you to do.

Dr Tay Eng Soon: Sir, concerning the Certificate for Special Education, the Member is already saying that it is an inferior certificate or implying that it will be. We say that it is a different certificate from the Certificate of Education. The contents of the course are different. The kind of pupils that the teachers are going to teach are different. There are special needs. Nobody is saying that the Certificate for Special Education is inferior. It is different. Anyway, the details are still being worked out. So let us not pre-judge the issue.

As far as the equipment for the School for the Deaf is concerned, as far as I know, we have not received any request for equipment for their vocational centre. They have to their credit raised a lot of money to build that centre and we have not received any request or complaint that the centre is not adequately equipped.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr Ng Kah Ting:

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-04 Object Group 3310 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (8), Mr Ng is not here. Amendment No. (9), Mr Jeyaretnam.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, this time I turn to Public Assistance. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-04 of the Main Estimates.

This, as I said a little while ago, concerns public assistance. Sir, I hope the Minister would not jump up from his seat. Last year I asked the Minister whether he would let me know by how much the public assistance was reduced by this Government after it took power, and I am afraid I am still waiting for his answer. But I am not going to talk too much about that. I am going to talk about the withdrawal of public assistance in two cases and both of them come from my own constituency. I am not suggesting that it has been withdrawn because they come from Anson.

The first concerns a woman of over 70 years old, Sir, who has no dependants to look after her and she was resettled from wherever she was living into this block in Jalan Bukit Merah in Anson constituency. And because she is single, the HDB told her that she would have to find somebody else before she could be allocated a one-room flat. So she set about it and with the help of friends found a man who works on a bumboat, I am told, and he said, "All right. Yes, I need a place to put my head down, so I will come along and live in your flat." She made a statutory declaration that he was her adopted son and that satisfied the HDB and she was given this flat.

Then the Ministry of Social Affairs descended on her and they said, "Oh, you have got a man living here. He is looking after you, is he not?" This man, I am told, only earns about $300 a month which is hardly enough for himself. She was asked to call at the Ministry of Social Affairs and there she was asked to sign a statement saying that she agreed to the withdrawal of her public assistance. She did not get her public assistance for the following month. So she came to see me. She said, "I am not getting my public assistance. They have stopped sending me my public assistance." So I wrote to the Ministry and I got a reply saying:

'Her request to withdraw from public assistance was accepted.' These are the words of the Ministry, "Her request to withdraw from public assistance was accepted." Sir, I find it a little incredible that this woman made a request that her public assistance be withdrawn. However, I have seen her after that, and she said she did no such thing. You might say that she was telling a lie. I do not know. But was it really necessary, I ask, for this public assistance of $80 to this poor woman who is over 70 years, with no other persons to look after her, to be withdrawn? Is it a drain on our economic resources? That it was costing this country to give her $80 a month as though that was a princely sum? So what is she to do now? She tries to eke out a living picking up tins, this and that. Last year there was a big uproar because I said "there are some people who are starving." You go and ask her how she tries to live, That is one case, Sir. 5.00 p.m.

There is another case that just came to my notice last night, fortunately. I did not have to dig through my other old letters. They were a husband and wife. They also have a daughter - I think they have other children who are married away - but this daughter is not well. The husband was drawing public assistance. He died about two years ago, I am told. Then when the wife asked for public assistance to be given to her, it was refused on the ground that, "Oh, you have got a married son living somewhere else, and so you cannot get public assistance." You were giving public assistance to her husband. He died. She is left without any means of support. She is over 70 and you do not give her public assistance. What rhyme or reason is there? So she came to me and asked, "Do you think you can do something about it?" I said "Yes, I can always try", as Oliver Twist did to get a little more. So I tell the Minister that I shall be trying. He will be getting a letter from me.

But I would ask that the Ministry do give some consideration for human suffering, human needs, and not merely consider whether the $80 can be saved or not for Government revenue. In the case of the woman who has a bumboat man living with her, the reason given was that she had somebody living with her. He said, "Yes, sometimes I buy provisions for her." Is that an adequate reason for withdrawing her public assistance? I can tell you of a number of other cases, but I do not propose to do. I would ask the Minister to restore the public assistance that was given to this woman and which was withdrawn sometime last year because, according to the Ministry, she requested withdrawal from public assistance. I can give you the statement that she made to me when she said that she never did anything of that sort. But I am not going to ask you to hold a public inquiry into it. I am asking you to exercise - I keep calling it - compassion, to show some compassion for the needs of our people.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, first of all, let me settle an old score with the Member for Anson, and that is his query whether there was a reduction in the Public Assistance (PA) rates after this Government took over. If I can refresh his memory, Sir: his question to me a year ago was whether I would confirm that there had been reductions in the rates after 1973. For the information of the Member for Anson and for the information of the rest of the House, PA rates prior to 1973 were, if the Member for Anson would care to take down -

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: First of all, we need five columns. The PA rates prior to 1973 were:

Dependants Maximum Head of Over 16 Under 16 per Household Wife yrs of age yrs of age Household $ $ $ $ $ January 1962 21 10 8 5 90 January 1973 28 18 12 12 70

In fact, the 1973 rates were actually higher than the rates in 1962 for each of the four categories of recipients, namely, Head of Household, Wife, Dependant below 16 years of age and Dependant above 16 years of age. However, while the 1962 rates allowed payment for up to a maximum of 12 dependants if they were under 16 years of age or 7 dependants if they were above 16 years of age, the 1973 rates and all subsequent rates up to the present day only allowed payment for a maximum of 4 members in each family. For this reason the maximum amount payable to a household in 1973 was, therefore, lower than in 1962. Moreover, to continue a scale of PA rates which allowed payment for more than 4 members of a family would not have been in keeping with the Government's family planning policy.

Let me reiterate to the Member for Anson once again that this Government is pragmatic and honest. We are not ashamed to admit that there was a decrease in the maximum payable per household. There is nothing to hide. We have introduced far more stringent measures than the meagre reduction of $20 of the maximum allowance payable to each household. I hope I do not owe him anything more as far as PA rates are concerned.

Before I go on to answer the rest of his questions, let me, first of all, inform him that all recommendations for withdrawal of Public Assistance as a result of reviews by the Public Assistance Section of my Ministry are carefully considered by the Public Assistance Review Committee (PARC) at its monthly meetings. Chaired by me personally, membership of the PARC comprises my two Parliamentary Secretaries, three Members of Parliament and senior officials of the Ministry of Social Affairs. Besides reviewing cases, fresh applications which are assessed by officials as unsuitable for the grant of PA are also referred to the PARC for a decision. In addition, Sir, the PARC considers all appeals for reconsideration made by hon. Members on behalf of their constituents, including the Member for Anson. Hon. Members are welcome to refer appeals to this Committee. I can assure the Member for Anson that his cases will be heard by this Committee as well.

Next, I will try to inform the Member how a recipient of PA signs the statement of withdrawal. In the course of investigating applications for Public Assistance or reviewing existing cases, applicants or recipients who have the means of support and are not in need of Public Assistance usually withdraw their applications and request the Ministry not to make further investigations into their family lest they be embarrassed if we find out how much they earn. Sir, the usual practice is to record a voluntary statement of withdrawal from the applicant or recipient to this effect. The signed statement is usually witnessed by a family member, or his relatives or friends in the presence of the applicant or recipient. If there is any feeling on the part of the Member for Anson that the Ministry harasses or coerces any applicant or recipient into making a statement, this is not so. Sir, in 1982 a total of 390 cases voluntarily withdrew from public assistance.

Let me come to the next case of the lady with the bumboat man. Sir, since the Member for Anson did not disclose the name of this lady, I shall do likewise. Let us call her Madam X. Madam X, a widow aged 79, was an itinerant cake hawker. She stopped work in 1971 due to old age. She went back to China to visit her only son in 1971 with her life savings of about $7,700. She returned to Singapore after spending three to four months in China where she had exhausted all her savings. She applied for Public Assistance in 1972. As she was reported to be without means of support, she was assisted with PA with effect from February 1972. She was then living alone at Block 28, 219 Jalan Membina Barat. Her case was reviewed in September 1982. Investigations revealed that Madam X had shifted to her present residence at Jalan Bukit Merah on 1st July, 1982, to live with one Mr Y, who was recorded in the HDB tenancy list as her adopted son. Mr Y, a bachelor, is a bumboat driver with no fixed employer. He has a declared income, as the Member put it just now, of $350 per month nett and is supporting Madam X who is also in receipt of Robin Welfare Aid at $30 per month from my Ministry. Later Madam X and her adopted son called at the Ministry to request a final payment in October 1982 and to withdraw from Public Assistance. In view of the above findings her request was acceded to. Her voluntary statement of withdrawal from Public Assistance was witnessed by her adopted son. I have got it here. It was thumb-printed by Madam X. Her thumb print is there.

Sir, on 5th November, 1982, the Member for Anson wrote to me to ask for the restoration of Madam X's Public Assistance without delay and that all monies withheld from her over the past weeks be refunded to her. The Member believed that the sum of $30 is not enough for Madam X to maintain herself. He also stated that if he made the facts of the case known publicly, which he did (it was reported in the Straits Times), Singaporeans would hang their heads in shame of the Government's action in taking away Public Assistance of $80 per month from a poor, old, lonely woman of 78 who has not a single relative or anyone to look after her. And he himself admitted just now that he did not know whether Madam X told him a lie or not. I am telling him now that Madam X told him a lie. 5.15 p.m.

Mr Jeyaretnam: About what?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: About signing the withdrawal letter. She told you that she did not sign, and you admitted that you did not know whether she was telling the truth or not. I am telling you now that she was not telling you the truth.

As regards the second case, since the person concerned came to see him only last night, therefore, I cannot make any comment. As he said just now, he will be writing to me on this case. I will give my judgment when I receive his appeal.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am indebted to the Minister for his answer. If I brought this woman to his place (not to his home, but to his Ministry) and she makes a request that her allowance be given back to her, would he restore it, please? If she says, "I signed that letter but now I do really want this money", would the Minister give it back to her?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, under the circumstances she is now in, the answer is no.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Then why tell me that her public assistance was withdrawn because she made a request for it to be withdrawn? That was what I was given to understand. I read out the letter, "as her request to withdraw from Public Assistance was accepted." It would appear that the basis of the withdrawal was her request. I am now saying that if she says, "I am sorry, I made a mistake in making that request. I really need that money." Would you give it back to her, please?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Chairman, Sir, the Member must be busy studying the five columns of figures I gave him earlier since he did not seem to be listening to my explanation. As I have explained just now, in the course of investigating applications for Public Assistance or reviewing existing cases (Madam X comes under the second category i.e. review of existing cases), families of the persons concerned would normally request the Ministry not to make further investigations into their backgrounds for fear of being embarrassed as a result of the investigations. So they would normally say, "Okay, fair enough, we are now able to support ourselves. We want to withdraw." So we ask the person concerned to sign a withdrawal statement.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I am sorry. May I put a final question to the Minister, please? Suppose she says she does not mind the Ministry making an investigation. Would the Minister then give it back to her?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Chairman, Sir, the Public Assistance rates are fixed as a percentage of minimum household expenditure. In this particular case of the lady and her bumboat son -

Mr Jeyaretnam: He is not her son.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Whatever it is, she has used that person to get tenancy of an HDB flat.

Mr Jeyaretnam: The HDB told her to do that.

Dr Ahmad Mattar: I am not too sure. I hope the Minister for National Development is here to answer that. The HDB would never do such a thing: asking the applicant to get someone to be called the adopted son. I doubt it!

Anyway, coming back to Public Assistance allowances, the rates are fixed at a certain percentage of the Minimum Household Expenditure determined by the Statistics Department of the Ministry of Finance. For a two-person household, the Public Assistance Allowance is $110 a month and that represents 50% of the Minimum Household Expenditure. So for this particular old lady, if her adopted son earns a declared income of $350, it is more than what a two-person household needs. Therefore, she is not entitled to the Public Assistance Allowance. Even if the Member were to appeal to me, even if he were to bring her to my office or anywhere he wants me to meet her, the answer is still no.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I am not withdrawing the amendment. I really feel sick about the whole answer.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting -

(10) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-05 Object Group 2210 of the Main Estimates.

(11) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-07 Object Group 2140 of the Main Estimates.

(12) That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VC-08 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendments (10), (11) and (12) have been withdrawn. Amendment (13), Encik Saidi.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head V be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead VD-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, total budget provision for the Sports Programme for FY 83 is $14,565,000 and out of this amount $11,900,000 is provided as a grant to the Singapore Sports Council. This grant is about $3 million more than that provided for FY 82. I believe the SSC has an estimated income of about $6 million per year. As reflected in the statement of accounts for the year ended 31st March 1982, it is actually $6,724,648. With this income and Government grant, the SSC would have a total of about $17 million to spend on sports programmes towards achieving the objective of promoting mass participation in sports as a means of building a healthy and rugged society.

I am curious to know from the Hon. Minister to what extent has the SSC achieved this objective. And is he satisfied that we have motivated many Singaporeans to take up sports of one kind or other to the extent that we can call ourselves a sports-loving nation?

It is encouraging to note that the promotion of sports at the grassroots level has made progress by the inclusion of swimming as one of the eight inter-constituency tournaments being organized in 1982. A total of 7,220 persons participated in these tournaments and the SSC spent $341,252 on subsidies on these tournaments. To my mind, this works out to about $5,000 being spent for each constituency for the participation of 100 persons in the tournaments. I believe that if this $5,000 is given to my constituency, I am confident that the Constituency Sports Club (CSC) could organize sports and games, competitions and tournaments involving a higher number of participants in the constituency.

I have the impression that there is no glamour or excitement or interest among our people to participate in these interconstituency tournaments. The number of spectators at most of these tournaments from my observation is not satisfactory. Nobody really cares whether his constituency is participating or represented in any particular inter-constituency tournament.

I would like to suggest that perhaps the SSC review the constituency sports programme, such as how it is being organized and so on, to enhance its effectiveness at promoting grassroots involvement in sports. Perhaps there should be more concentration on helping the CSC in organizing intra-constituency mass events and tournaments.

If the Hon. Minister is satisfied that we have motivated many Singaporeans to take up sports of one kind or other to the extent that we can call ourselves a sports-loving nation, is it not time that we considered the question of trying to produce outstanding sportsmen or sportswomen in any particular sports or games? At present, I understand that it is left to the individual national sports associations to develop their own sportsmen. The SSC spent about $246,585 on subsidies to sports organizations. The Singapore Sports Council should consider formulating a long-term programme to raise the standard of certain sports or games so that we will be able to produce outstanding sportsmen.

According to the reports of the Parliamentary Budget debates of 1973 to 1979, there was so much discussion on the utilization of the National Stadium. Many Members felt that when the National Stadium was completed, it was going to become a white elephant. But later after the establishment of the "Kallang Roar" as a result of the Malaysia Cup matches, there was a feeling of satisfaction that the National Stadium was fully utilized.

At present, I understand Singapore is not participating in the Malaysia Cup tournament. I therefore believe that it is only during such occasions that many Singaporeans visit the Stadium. May I know from the Minister what plans or steps are being taken by the SSC to ensure that the National Stadium will not turn out to be a white elephant?

Dr Ahmad Mattar: Mr Chairman, Sir, I will be very brief. I have taken note of all the suggestions made by the hon. Member for Kaki Bukit on how the SSC should go about doing things, and I will certainly direct the SSC to consider them.

But I disagree with the Member for Kaki Bukit that the National Stadium is a "white elephant." Since 1976, the Singapore Sports Council has earned revenue sufficient to pay for the upkeep of the National Stadium. The utilization rate of the National Stadium in 1982 was 244 bookings. The Football Association of Singapore hosted a number of tournaments in 1982. They were the Lion City Cup, the Asian Youth Tournament, the Merlion Trophy and the Asia-Oceania Final Qualifying Match of the World Cup Tournament. And these matches accounted for some periods of usage of the National Stadium in place of the Malaysia Cup.

On the usage of the covered area, the exhibition space under the gallery of the National Stadium was fully utilized for commercial rentals except for an area of 170 square metres which was used regularly as a reception area for seminars and rhythmic exercise classes.

Two of the fringe car parks have been converted for overnight bus parking while one area, Car Park D, has been converted to house four fast-food restaurants.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: Sir, since the Minister has given the assurance that the National Stadium will not become a white elephant, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $36,014,840 for Head V ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $5,770,000 for Head V ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I shall now deal with the remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement. In respect of the Main Estimates, they are Heads B, C, D, E, G, H and X.

I propose to take those heads of expenditure en bloc.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Main Estimates on page 17 of Paper Cmd. 2 of 1983 stand part of the Main Estimates," put, and agreed to.

The Chairman: In respect of the Development Estimates, the remaining Head is Head E.

Question, "That the sum of $1,535,600 for Head E stand part of the Development Estimates," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $7,011,131,420 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1983 to 31st March, 1984, contained in Paper Cmd. 2 of 1983," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $7,788,607,100 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1983 to 31st March, 1984, contained in Paper Cmd. 2 of 1983," put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

The Minister for Trade and Industry (Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply have come to certain resolutions.

First Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $7,011,131,420 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1983 to 31st March, 1984, contained in Paper Cmd. 2 of 1983."

Second Resolution reported -

"That the sum of $7,788,607,100 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1983 to 31st March, 1984, contained in Paper Cmd. 2 of 1983."

Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolutions."

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions accordingly agreed to.