FOREIGN WORKERS (Particulars)

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam asked the Acting Minister for Labour whether he will give the number of foreign workers employed in Singapore under Work Permits as at 1st March, 1984 in (i) the Construction industry; (ii) the Manufacturing industry; (iii) Oil industry; (iv) Transport, services and related industries; and (v) as Domestic servants.

The Acting Minister for Labour (Prof. S. Jayakumar): Mr Speaker, Sir, there are approximately 150,000 work perm it holders in Singapore, including permanent residents.

The details sought by the Member are not available. While the Ministry has admi- nistrative records of work permit holders, it is not possible to accurately state the number of such workers at any given time, because many leave without informing the Ministry. To give accurate figures and the breakdown sought requires a time-consuming and complicated exercise which is both costly and unproductive.

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have two questions to ask the Acting Minister. May we know when we can get this information? The Minister may consider it unproductive but, with respect to him, I think this House is entitled to the information if it is sought. And I must insist on an answer to that question. So may we know when we may have this information that has been asked for?

Secondly, would the Minister state whether the wages paid to these foreign workers are lower than the wages paid to Singaporeans? I have a purpose in asking this and would he answer that first?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think he should know that the wages paid to foreign workers or local workers are determined by market forces. They are not paid by the Government.

Secondly, as to when can we give the information, I see no reason whatsoever in deploying large numbers of my staff from whatever work they are doing and to spend time, money and expensive computer time in churning out the information just for the gratification of the Member's debating or publicity desires.

Even if the figures are available, I doubt whether any useful purpose is met in giving these to him. We have had previous instances where my Ministry or other Ministries had laboured to give figures. Has he proved himself responsible? Has he used the figures for public interest, in Singapore's interest? On the contrary, the record has shown that he is out to embarrass Singapore internationally with his attempt to fabricate, even concoct, figures for the international press about thousands starving in Singapore. Did he then come to the House to ask for figures? Did he ask for figures before he gave that interview?

So, Mr Speaker, Sir, no over-riding public interest is advanced in my Ministry spending a large amount of its manpower and time in giving him the figures.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will ignore all this tirade from the Acting Minister for Labour. It is completely irrelevant and just utter verbiage. But this is a point of principle, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Your supplementary question, Mr Jeyaretnam.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I want a ruling as to whether I am entitled to this information or not as a Member of this House. Are we going to be told, "You can't have this information"?

Secondly, unless they want to hide figures or information from the public, I do not know why the Acting Minister is not able to tell me whether foreign workers are being paid less than the Singapore workers. Does he know that some Singapore workers are being displaced because foreign workers are cheaper?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is a fact known not only in Singapore but elsewhere that we have a full employment situation. And because we have a labour shortage, it is necessary to import large numbers of foreign workers. I see no reason in giving him any information more than what I have already supplied. What every Singaporean needs to know is that there is a large number of foreign workers, 150,000, and we have to have them temporarily. But in the long-term economic and social interest, they will have to be phased out. The Government will phase them out. But while they are here, the Government will take strong measures to ensure that they do not sink roots here, whether or not the Member for Anson takes up cases for them for extensions and marriage restrictions or advances exceptions to policy and special circumstances for foreign workers to sink roots here. He may advance the cause of foreign workers but we as a Government have to be firm.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am getting very tired of not getting answers to the questions that I ask. If the Minister is not capable, or if it is beyond his comprehension to give answers, let him resign, or say so. My questions are these and I ask for your ruling, Mr Speaker, on this Ques- tion. Is a Member of the House entitled to information or not? That is one.

Second, will he please answer this question : Is it not within the knowledge of the Ministry that foreign workers are paid less than Singapore workers and what steps is he taking to ensure that Singapore workers are not being displaced?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not propose to labour the point. I have answered his questions. I have gone through the Standing Orders. Standing Orders permit him to ask any question. I have not seen any Standing Order which compels me to give him the information in the manner and in the breakdown in which he has sought. Of course, Mr Speaker,l am subject to your orders and your directions.

Mr Speaker: I think honourable Members must expect figures if they are available. If they are not available, then there is no point to keep on asking for them.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, what the Acting Minister has said is that it will take time. I will wait. I am in no hurry. Would he tell me how long it will take his over-worked Ministry to supply these figures to me? Six months?

Mr Speaker: It may interest the Member for Anson to know this ruling. It is from Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice and it states:

'An answer to a question cannot be insisted upon, if the answer be refused by a Minister, and the Speaker has refused to allow supplementary questions in these circumstances.'

I think we should stop here. The Clerk will now proceed to read the Order of the Day.