MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1986 TO 31ST MARCH, 1987

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [7th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head J (cont.) -

Resumption of Debate on Question [26th March, 1986],

"That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead JA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates." - [Mr Chai Chong Yii].

Question again proposed.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe (Geylang Serai): Sir, before the House adjourned yesterday, I was speaking in support of the proposal made by the Member for Fengshan for greater financial support to be given by the Ministry of Finance towards the construction of community centres. For every dollar raised by the community and grassroots organizations, the Ministry of Finance should at least contribute two dollars. I hope that the Acting Minister for Community Development will pursue this proposal vigorously with the Ministry of Finance.

Sir, I would like now to turn to the Majlis Ugama Islam (MUIS). Firstly, I would like to know what steps MUIS has taken to check the spread of false Islamic teachings in Singapore. Could the Minister concerned give an assessment of this problem? How widespread is this problem? To effectively check this problem, MUIS should get the assistance of and work closely with the other Muslim organizations here. Could the Minister comment on the relationship between MUIS and the other Muslim organizations, and how they have cooperated and worked together to tackle issues which Muslims in Singapore face? In this connection, I would also like to urge MUIS to take strong, decisive and urgent action to check the spread of Qadiyani teachings here. The Qadiyanis have developed a building in Onan Road, which is in my constituency, which they have called a masjid. I fear that this development will confuse the Muslims in Singapore. A number of leading Muslim organizations have voiced their concern regarding this issue. They are rather critical of MUIS, especially for being too slow and for not taking action to either restrain or stop the Qadiyanis from calling their building a masjid. MUIS must act quickly and decisively.

The next issue which I would like to raise is the administration of wakaf properties in Singapore. The Member for Pasir Panjang has spoken on this subject and has urged MUIS to administer the wakaf properties more effectively. I would like to add that they should consider ways and means by which the wakaf properties could be developed for the benefit of the Muslim community.

Sir, we are living in a fast changing world brought about by the rapid development in science and technology. The Muslims must keep pace with this development so that they would not be left behind. However, we have to exercise great care so that, in trying to absorb the new ideas brought about by the development in science and technology, we do not breach the fundamental teachings of Islam. Muslims in Singapore need guidance on these matters and MUIS must play a more positive role here.

I would like to suggest that MUIS develop a core group of Muslim scholars comprising international scholars and local scholars as well.

MUIS should maintain close relationship with leading Muslim universities in the world. Muslim scholars of international repute should be invited to come to Singapore on a regular basis to meet our local scholars and leaders of the Muslim community to discuss issues of relevance to Muslims in their effort and drive to keep pace with the rapid development in the field of science and technology. I hope that the Minister will ask MUIS to consider this suggestion. There is an urgent need for MUIS to be restructured and reorganized so that it can play a more positive role, a more dynamic role, in the social as well as economic development of Muslims in Singapore.

Finally, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister concerned to report on the development of the Masjid Darul Ghufran in Tampines.

Mr Chng Hee Kok (Radin Mas): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have an amendment under Amendment No. (8) - Children and Youth Services (Protection and Welfare).

Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise to speak on behalf of little children who are being abused by fathers, mothers, step parents and other adults. I rise too on behalf of caring parents and other individuals who feel that the Government must do more to prevent child abuse.

Child abuse and violence against children must be deterred. For every case of abuse against a little boy or a girl which has been reported, several must have gone undetected. I leave it to Members to imagine the number of child abusers who have got off scot-free for every case that finally comes to court. It is difficult to pinpoint any single cause of violence or abuse of defenceless children. However, I am particularly worried that, because of our present economic problems, a retrenched worker or an individual who is out of job for an extended period of time may resort to taking it out on their children. It cannot be condoned but you can understand how this can happen.

To prevent more cases of abuse, social workers and officials of the Ministry of Community Development must take all complaints seriously and put more efforts to investigate thoroughly. Besides counselling these people, the Ministry may have to take more of these children into its care. We cannot underestimate the importance of such preventive measures. A victim of child abuse today is a potential abuser in future. Whatever we blame it on, it makes little difference to the child who has been abused. How do you explain to a little boy who has cigarette burns all over his body? Or how do you empathize with an innocent child who has been lacerated? Therefore, something has got to be done to combat this heinous crime.

I say that the law is too lenient. Presently, accused persons are being charged under the Children and Young Persons Act. The maximum punishment for cruelty to children and young persons under this particular Act is two years' imprisonment and a fine of up to $1,000. This was consolidated in 1970 and therefore it is $1,000 in 1970. I think this is grossly inadequate. One would expect this to be the minimum sentence. Let me quote one of many examples. A few weeks ago a 33-year old mother was charged under this particular Act. She was charged for inhuman treatment of her baby. The baby was pinched and caned. It was quite brutally beaten on a number of occasions, and finally the baby died. The pathologist certified the cause of death as multiple injuries on a battered child. What did her mother get? Her mother got four months'imprisonment. How old was the baby? 20 months old. The case very clearly shows that the law is too lenient. I think the Minister must initiate more action to combat child abuse before we are saddled with more physically and psychologically maimed chidren.

Mr Chiam See Tong (Potong Pasir): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have written to the Acting Minister for Community Development in respect of the amounts of donations given by the public to the construction of the Sennett Community Centre. On the 7th of March, he replied. He said that the total cost of construction was $490,000, out of which $150,000 was paid by the Government. Land was also provided by the Government and the public contributed $300,040 or about 70% of the total amount.

The Sennett Community Centre is a new generation community centre. It is well-equipped with sporting, cultural, social and educational facilities. It has been closed for over a year now. It has been shut and has not been in use since. The Government announced the reason for closing it - to use it as a secretariat for the RC, but to date it is still not in use. Many members in my constituency have asked me whether the community centre could be reopened for their use, especially residents of Sennett Estate. This is part of my constituency.

The other reasons given by the Acting Minister were that a new Potong Pasir Community Centre has been built to replace this one. Their policy was to upgrade the facilities to those of modern centres. And they also want to consolidate public resources, as he said that the residents there have easier access to the new Potong Pasir Community Centre. Sir, these are flimsy and unconvincing reasons. In fact, there is an overwhelming need for the use of the community centre facilities in Sennett Estate. When it was closed, many of the residents, of course, were very disappointed. They complained to me, and a few were even angry because they have been using that community centre and they know that it is well patronized. To say that a new community centre would replace this one is certainly not good enough reason.

My own experience with the new community centre at Potong Pasir is that it is, in fact, overcrowded because residents there have written in. I have written in to use the facilities there, and we have not been able to make use because they say there are competing priorities. Of course, the object of the People's Association is to promote group activities, socially, culturally, education, and athletics. By closing a community centre, of course, that objective would not be enhanced. One would imagine that they would want to keep existing community centres which have a demand and also to build new ones where it is needed. So to close down the Sennett Community Centre defeats the objective of the People's Association.

More importantly, a point of princple. The public's money has been donated to build the Sennett Community Centre and I think there is a clear breach of trust of those who had given this money to tell them now that the community centre is going to be used for something else. When they were approached for the money, what was the reason given? They said, "Please donate money to build a community centre." If you tell them at that time that it may be used for an office, the secretariat of the RC, they may not want to donate that money. So this is a very basic principle, and I feel that the Government should not breach that trust. They should keep their word. You approached the public for money with a specific purpose to build a community centre, to cater for the social, cultural, educational, and athletic needs of the community. They are very willing to donate that money and it is a sizeable sum because, as I said, it is about 70% of the total cost. It is certainly not right, in principle,to convert it later on to another use.

That community centre has also been specifically designed as a community centre, in other words, with all the facilities there. I have visited it many times. It is a cavernous sort of building. It is not compact with many rooms for office use. It has an open design for social, cultural and sporting needs. Planning approval has been given for those purposes. Now, what they want to do is to convert it into something else which it was not built for in the first place.

Sir, I would seriously urge the Acting Minister to re-open the Sennett Community Centre immediately because there is a demand for it.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Acting Minister for Community Development (Mr Teo Chong Tee): Sir, I am replying to the Member for Pasir Panjang on behalf of my Acting Minister.

The hon. Member, in his speech yesterday, raised two of his favourite subjects - one on sports and the other on MUIS. I am replying only on matters concerning sports. The Member raised four issues in his speech. Let me briefly deal with each of them.

Last year, the Member raised the issue of the Government's loan to the Singapore Sports Council. I share his concern. My Ministry's officials have been having discussions with the Ministry of Finance to convert the loan into a grant. To-date, we are still awaiting a decision from the Ministry of Finance. Hopefully, a positive response will be forthcoming.

The Singapore Sports Council attempts to make its facilities more accessible to the public to participate in sports and recreational activities. On floodlighting of athletic centres, the Singapore Sports Council has embarked on a phased programme to floodlight them. I am pleased to inform the Member that Bedok and Toa Payoh Athletic Centres will be floodlighted by the end of 1986 at an estimated cost of $447,000. The night usage of these two centres will be monitored over the next two years against possible drop in daylight usage. If utilization rate shows an appreciable increase in real terms, approval will be sought to floodlight the remaining four athletic centres at Queenstown, Farrer Park, Ang Mo Kio and Clementi.

Sir, the Member wants to know more details on the progress made so far on the multi-purpose indoor stadium. As the House already knows, the Singapore Sports Council is proceeding to build the multi-purpose indoor stadium at an estimated cost of $68 million. Much work has already been put in in the selection of consultants for the various important works, such as structural, mechanical, electrical engineering and acoustics. The project consultants, namely, Messrs Raglan Squire & Partners and Kenzo Tange Associates, have made representation to the Implementation Committee set up by the Ministry, Singapore Sports Council, and the PWD on alternative models for the multi-purpose indoor stadium. A selection will be made next month. The indoor stadium is targetted to be ready by the end of 1988.

Sir, the last point raised by the hon. Member is the plight of sportsmen and sportswomen. I also share the concern of the hon. Member over the release of sportsmen and sportswomen for training and participating in competitive sports meets held locally and overseas. Most employers are normally sympathetic in granting leave to them. For the few who refuse to grant leave, a direct approach is usually made to the company and an influential person is approached to speak to the management. Most of the time, employers are quite responsive. However, if the approaches fail, the sportsmen and sportswomen are urged to take their own vacation or no-pay leave. They are then compensated by out-of-pocket allowance by the sports authorities concerned to tide over the period of their salary loss.

The Member may be aware that sports authorities, like the Singapore National Olympic Council (SNOC), Singapore Sports Council, and the national sports associations, do not have the power to compel companies to release sportsmen and sportswomen for training or to grant them leave to represent Singapore at tournaments and sports meets. Nevertheless, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all employers who have sports enthusiasts in their organizations to be more consider- ate, understanding and supportive in this respect of releasing them for international sports participation, especially when these sportsmen and sportswomen are taking part in competitions as representatives of the nation.

The Minister of State for Community Development (Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon): Sir, I have been asked to reply to some of the queries or comments made by various Members yesterday and this morning. I am going to do it in Mandarin.

(In Mandarin): Sir, yesterday the Member for Changkat in her speech mentioned that she had noticed some aged people gathering at the void decks of some HDB blocks. She therefore suggested that the Ministry of Community Development should request the HDB to set up a senior citizens corner outside the RC office for senior citizens to gather informally to pass away their time, such as to play chess, to read newspapers or to chit-chat. She also stressed that the setting up of such a corner at the void decks in HDB estates would not only help them to have better liaison with the younger people but also help the residents by way of keeping a watch on the security of their estates. I should say that her views are quite correct.

The HDB has since the end of last year started to allocate certain portions of void decks in some of the newer estates as senior citizens' corner. The HDB had provided some tables there for the senior citizens to play chess and to sit around for chit-chatting. Things are being done for them. However, I am not saying that this is enough to meet their needs. I would say that whether there should be other facilities or that the facilities provided should be improved depends on how the senior citizens themselves make use of the existing facilities. The RCs and their advisers can also help to give their advice and to make representations to us for consideration.

The Member for Braddell Heights talked about the many activities of the RCs. The RCs are organizing a lot of activities. Therefore, one centre for an RC is insufficient. The Member requested that HDB should allot one more unit to the RC concerned for such activities. In principle, the request looks grand. But we should understand that the centre for RC is set up for the purpose of enabling the RC to have an office to meet and to foster good relationship with the residents. For their convenience, the RC centre is at the void deck of a block of flats. Since there is limited space, a certain portion of the void deck will have to be assigned for other uses, such as for funerals, wedding or other forms of gathering for the residents. Therefore, the RC centre should not be too large as to inconvenience other users since the RC's service is only confined to the residents in the zone unlike that provided by a community centre. We certainly do not want to see the RC centre develop into another community centre. The RC should be playing a role complementary to the community centre.

The aim of the Government is to maximise the limited resources of each constituency so as to enable the community centre to adequately provide a wide range of activities for the residents. Therefore, it will not be possible to allocate more resources to the RCs. At the moment, we have 213 RC centres in existence. The number will increase with the increase in number of RCs. To expand the space of all these RC centres, the Government will have to incur more expenditure. During the present economic recession, it is not appropriate for Government to consider this proposal. In fact, most of the RC centres at this stage are not fully utilised. They are usually open only in the evening. The main reason is that they are constained by finance. So they cannot afford to employ a keeper and open the premises for the whole day. Also, members of the RCs are usually employed elsewhere. They have limited spare time and take turns to look after their centre. Therefore, the Government encourages the RCs to set up clubs or youth clubs so that these clubs will attract the senior citizens and the young people to come together and take part in RC activities suitable for them. I am glad that the RCs in Changkat and Braddell Heights constituencies and some others are able to do this. I am also agreeable to many Members' proposal to encourage the setting up of senior citizens clubs and youth clubs to use RC premises in the day time for their activities and to organize more outdoor activities to attract both young and old residents and make full use of RC centres. RCs will then be able to overcome the problem of manpower shortage and play a better role. The Government also hopes that the RCs can also cooperate in the activities of community centres by making use of the community centres to organize activities on a larger scale, such as encouraging the holding of "Respect the Elders" functions at the community centres. At the same time, the senior citizen's club, when necessary, can also make use of the empty space next to the RC premises for their pastime activities such as chess, chit-chat over a cup of tea, and so on. This will be convenient to them and they can also keep simple utensils at RC premises. In this way it is not necessary to spend a large sum of money on setting up another club premises. I am sure the HDB generally will not object to such use by the RCs.

At present the HDB is improving the design of new RC premises. The present 60 sq metres for an RC centres will be increased to 80 sq metres so that there will be better facilities and space for such activities. Also, when necessary, the adjacent space can also be made use of conveniently. So it is not necessary at the present stage for the HDB to allot more space for the purpose of building another unit.

In his speech yesterday, the Member for Braddell Heights had praised the RCs and their members for their contributions towards community development and he asked whether the Government would take cognizance of their services. The answer is yes, the Government does appreciate their contributions. Presently, the Government is giving long service awards to members of CCC/CCMC amd WSC with 10, 15 and 20 years's service. With effect from this year, the Government has decided to implement the long service awards uniformly to community service workers from the various grassroots organizations, including the CCCs, RCs, CCMCs, women sub-committees, youth executive committees, constituency sports clubs management committees, civil defence coordinating committees and boys' club management committees as follows: (a) 5-year Community Service Award, (b)National Award for 10-year Community Service, (c) National Award for 15-year Community Service, and (d) National Award for 20-year Community Service.

The 5-year Community Service Award could be implemented by the relevant Ministries or Statutory Boards straightaway. The award would take the form of certificate of appreciation for a minimum 5-year service in a particular community organisation. However, for the purpose of national awards for 10, 15 and 20 years' community service, the length of service of a proposed recipient would be his total accumulated service with one or more of such grassroots organizations mentioned above. These national awards would be coordinated by the Ministry of Community Development for implementation with effect from 1986, and these national awards would take the form of a long service certificate plus a medal.

Members of the grassroots organizations are often invited by Government leaders or national bodies for talks, dialogue sessions or attending functions, etc. As RC members have also been contributing to community services, they will also be given priority in the allocation of HDB flats. In addition, with effect from this year, meritorious awards will also be given up to a maximum of 5 RCs annually. These awards are aimed at promoting teamwork and healthy competition among the RCs in the fulfilment of their objective. For the purpose of these awards, the RCs will be assessed in the following two broad areas:- Effectiveness as a channel of communication, and (b) Resourcefulness in implementing projects or activities.

The Member for Siglap proposed that the People's Association (PA) and its community centres should expand their scope of activities through wider programmes to attract greater youth participation. I am pleased to inform the House that there are plans to expand and upgrade the activities of the PA and its community centres in order to reach out to as many youths as possible. To achieve this, the PA, inter alia, conducts regular surveys to ascertain the needs, interests, problems and aspiration's of our youths. The surveys have confirmed the interests and needs are varied. Hence, in their plans and action to reach out to them, the PA and its community centres have organized a wide range of activities for today's youths:- (a) Voluntary Service Programmes, for example, youths are encouraged to help in community and charity work such as national campaigns, help for the aged and the disabled, and conducting tuition classes for children. (b) Sports and Recreation Programmes, e.g. squash, sports tournaments and outdoor activities. (c) Cultural Programmes, e.g. disco, breakdance, folk dance and traditional dances. (d) self-development and Leadership Training Programmes, e.g. Seminars or national problems and policies. (e) Youth Exchange Programmes, e.g. exchange of visits with ASEAN countries.

Sir, in response, to its latest survey conducted in December last year, PA plans to conduct more continuing education courses which are career orientated for the youths to improve themselves academically and technically. Such courses include computer programming, language classes and tuition for academic subjects.

To meet the growing demand of our youths for outdoor activiites and sea sports, PA and its community centre youth groups are organising more outdoor activities such as expedition, sea sports, camping and hiking. The PA is also building more facilities to cater to this interest.

Sir, the PA and its community centres are really trying very hard and doing their best to attract as many youths as possible to take part in the activities organised for them. In fact, the 95% increase in the PA Youth Movement membership from 43,000 in February 1982 to 84,000 in February 1986 indicates that the community centres' activities to attract to-day's youths. More can and will be done to attract as many youths as possible. Sir, some Members of this House have also mentioned that the PA should allow the CCMCs and the Youth Committees to have more latitude and flexibility in their activities and programmes. Indeed, it has been so and there are consultants providing them with correct direction and consultations on these matters.

There is another point. The Member for Fengshan, with the support of the Member for Geylang Serai, implored that the Government should provide more funds to help build more community centres. At the same time since there are more and more new demands and needs, therefore the present basic facilities of the present community centres should be expanded and reviewed. For the benefit of the public, I would like to briefly explain that the approved facilities of modern community centre and the existing Government policy for funding its building. A modern community centre has basic and additional facilities. The basic facilities are those which a modern community centre needs to carry out most of its activities and these include offices, conference room, activity rooms and a multi-purpose hall. The additional facilities are optional and more specialized. These include music room, health fitness room, squash court and dark room. The Government has been generous in funding the building of modern community centres. Apart from paying for the land cost, it assumes the full cost for the building and the facilities except for the $100,000 contribution from the community. For building the additional facilities, the Government pays half of the cost. Sir, some Members suggested that the definition of basic facilities be reviewed and that the Government should give more subsidy. I will ask the PA to look into these suggestions.

The Member for Potong Pasir again harped on his old tune. He wants the PA to reopen the Sennett Community Centre. As for the reasons why the centre was closed, he was quite clear when he mentioned the reasons very fully. The closure of Sennett Community Centre was in the plan of the PA, which was formulated by the PA some years ago. If the Member for Potong Pasir is interested to know, I can tell him that in 1984, when he was not an MP yet, 15 community centres were closed down. In 1985, 13 community centres were closed down. In the next few years, another 29 community centres will be closed down. This is purely because we want to make full and better use of the resources of the various community centres. It is not enough just to build the community centre. It is also necessary to have large sums of money to renovate and maintain the community centre premises and the community leaders have to raise fund to support all sorts of activities organised for the residents. In the case of Potong Pasir, when the Sennett Community Centre was closed down, it does not mean that the constituents of Potong Pasir are denied of a community centre. Instead, they have been provided with a better community centre with better facilities ---

Mr Chiam See Tong: Point of clarification, Sir.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: No. I have to continue with my answer.

(In Mandarin): I feel that this question need not be repeated. We do not have to argue over and over again because all this is in accordance with the original plan of the PA formulated a few years ago. We cannot change our original plan just because the Member for Potong Pasir has objected to it.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Point of clarification, Sir.

The Chairman: About what?

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir I think this is important. I have stated a point of principle. Monies were collected specifically for the building of the community centre. I am sure the Minister for Law can bear me out. If you have a donation campaign for a specific purpose, it is wrong, both morally and in law, to later on change the use for which the money was donated. This is an important principle. If the Government deviates from this principle, in future no member of the public would be willing to donate monies for Government projects. This is an important principle which we must uphold. To say that it is just for purposes of upgrading and you take away the centre for which it was originally intended is a very, very flimsy reason.

There is another point which I think is important. If the Government does not have enough resources, I am sure the public would be more than willing to take over the Sennett Estate CC and run it themselves.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: ( In Mandarin): Sir, now we see the Member's real motive behind all the fuss. He has been dreaming to take over the building! The building of a new Potong Pasir community centre was proposed by the community leaders themselves. They understood very well that within a short distance, there could not be two community centres. They realized very well that it was necessary to raise donations to build another new community centre with better facilities. All this is according to plan. So, what is he quarelling about here?

Mr Chiam See Tong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Minister of State has completely missed the point. This is a very important point. Can they breach the trust of the people?

The Chairman: The Minister wants to reply.

The Acting Minister for Community Development (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Sir, many Members have asked for the policies and directions of my Ministry and about how the policies would be carried out. All except two have also made many useful suggestions and comments to improve the welfare, the cultural, the grassroots organizations and the various services to the people. I would like to take this opportunity to thank them for their concern and interest. I would try to respond to all the suggestions and questions as fully as possible.

The objective of my Ministry is to help to promote and nurture a robust, culturally vibrant, cohesive and compassionate society. It hopes to achieve this through a set of welfare and cultural policies and plans. And the community organizations, CCs, CCMCs, RCs and other voluntary welfare and cultural organizations and service clubs will be relied upon to carry out this task.

Sir, the social problems and challenges faced by our society are not new. Many countries, many societies, have experienced them at one time or another. Seldom do we have to face a unique situation which other societies past or present have not experienced. But we must be able to recognize our social problems and take actions well ahead of time. The Committee on the Problems of the Aged is a case in point. In this way, we can then stay on top of the social problems that may arise and continue to progress instead of being snowed by our problems. Of course, the solutions we find for ourselves must fit our own special circumstances and environment. We know the pitfalls of a welfare state and its burdens on the people. In our welfare programmes, therefore, we need to make sure that we do not fall into the welfare trap. And yet we must be able to help those genuinely in need of assistance. The underlying philosophy of the welfare programmes is our belief that the Asian cultural values and the concept of the family as a social insurance for its members must be preserved. The community will provide a network and support necessary for such community programmes to succeed. The Ministry will work closely with the community organizations and the families.

My Ministry will help parents in the proper care of their children. We will provide the environment for our senior citizens and our disabled to express their potentials and abilities. There are many concerned individuals and organizations which want to play an active role in serving the public. The less fortunate in our midst have not been forgotten by the community and the Government. The Ministry will give the voluntary organizations all the help that is necessary within the resources that we have. Direct Government subsidies should be kept as low as possible to enable the community and the voluntary organizations to play a role. Otherwise, taxes will have to be raised to fund these activities.

But that is not to say that the Government will do nothing. The direct and indirect measures and assistance given by the Ministry include the following:

(a) block grants and per capita grants;

(b) free medical treatment for deserving cases at Government hospitals and outpatient clinics;

(c) subventions to the Community Chest and other welfare organizations;

(d) up to 40%, and it will be 33% in 1987, in corporate income tax rebate to donors who contribute to the charities;

(e) assistance in getting State land and premises at a nominal rental of $12 a year. But the value of land occupied by these organizations run into millions of dollars.

(f) waiver of development charges for change of use of premises, and expediting planning approval;

(g) provision and recruitment of staff, training of the staff and giving them equipment.

The Member for Radin Mas raised the problem of child abuse. In the provision of services for children and youths, my Ministry is concerned with the welfare of children who are exploited, abused, neglected and those who exhibit deviant behaviour. My Ministry takes a serious view of child abuse. Let me assure the Member that all reported cases of child abuse are thoroughly investigated and handed over to the Police for action, if necessary.

Cases of neglect, ill-treatment and assault are punishable under the Children and Young Persons Act with up to two years' imprisonment or a fine not exceeding $1,000 or both. More serious cases such as voluntarily causing grievous hurt, incest or statutory rape are punishable under the Penal Code with 7 to 20 years of imprisonment with a fine or caning. But the choice of the law to deal with specific cases must depend on the circumstances. While action must be taken to punish the offender, care must also be exercised so as to ensure that the family will not suffer subsequently. We want to make sure that the child also reconciles with the parents.

My Ministry keeps a close watch on the trends of child abuse. I would like to allay the fears that the Member and the public may have as a result of press reports on the rise in child abuse. Data kept by my Minisry show that the number of reported child abuse cases has not gone up or fluctuated greatly.

It is important that parents and relatives of children under the care of the Ministry continue to be involved with the children. My Ministry's staff will work closely with them to build a better understanding and relationship between the children and the parents and the family members. A parent education programme was launched last year to disseminate information on proper parenting. This programme will be a continuing one. Our main objective is to return the children under our care to the families as soon as possible.

The Member for Yuhua and Bo Wen are also concerned for child care centres and efforts of the Government in this regard. Let me assure them that a major activity of my Ministry is to promote the development of a wide range of child care facilities and services as a national effort to encourage more women to work. To achieve the female labour participation rate of 50% by 1995, my Ministry has projected an approximate requirement of about 20,000 child care centre places. 36 new child care centres have already been set up in FY 1985 providing a total of 1,900 additional places. And there are now 91 child care centres with a total capacity of 5,400 places. Over the next 10 years, my Ministry will encourage the setting up of about 235 centres to meet the remaining target of 14,600. For FY 1986, my Ministry's target is 18 centres providing a total of 1,l00 places. Thereafter we plan to set up an average of 20 to 25 centres each year, but the number of centres to be set up will depend on actual demand. We will study the needs and the demographic patterns of the location with the help of the authorites, such as the Housing and Development Board,before indicating where the child care centres should be set up. Of course, the final choice will be left with the child care operators.

Response from voluntary welfare organizations, employers, People's Association, the NTUC and the private sector to the Government's call to set up more child care centres have been encouraging. It is therefore not necessary for the Ministry to be directly involved in running child care centres. There is sufficient expertise within the community to do so. The Government will continue to give the necessary support, financial incentives, subsidized training for child care staff, free consultation and information. The financial incentives which we now give include grants of up to $40,000 for furnishing and equipment, full subsidy for the 20% conversion cost charged by the HDB, recurrent operating subsidies of between $50 and $100 per child, and subsidies to help new centres in the initial months of their operation. The present level of operating subsidies is enough. A further review will be made in two years' time, ie, 1988.

The Ministry has drawn up guidelines on standards of service to be adopted by child care operators. A training programme has also been worked out with the Institute of Education to provide training for child care staff. All these measures, I hope, will help to ensure that services provided by the child care organizations are of an acceptable standard. The Ministry is also looking into legislation to ensure that the minimum standard of care is adhered to.

The Member for Bo Wen asked us to think about the social problems that may arise because of an increasingly ageing population. Most of the problems and recommendations have already been highlighted in the Howe Yoon Chong Report on the Problems of the Aged. My Ministry has accepted in principle the recommendations which are within my purview. My Ministry will adopt an integrated approach towards the aged problem. This calls for the participation of the family, the community and the Government. Programmes and activities for the aged are targetted towards keeping the aged with their families and within the community for as long as possible. The family setting allows the aged to grow old gracefully and in familiar surroundings. It helps them to maintain their self-worth and dignity.

A wide range of community based social services have also been explored or introduced to help the family look after the aged and aged sick in their homes. These include the Befriender Service, Home Help Service, Meal Delivery Service, Day Care Centres, Senior Citizens' Clubs, Senior Citizens' Health Centres, and Home Nursing Foundation Service. The details of these schemes or services have been given in my reply to the Member for Delta last week and I shall not waste the time of the House by repeating them.

I have set up a Committee to specially coordinate, promote, direct and supervise the implementation of the programmes and activities for the aged. This will ensure that the services for the aged are properly coordinated. The Committee comprises representatives from the Ministry of Health, Singapore Council of Social Service, Singapore Sports Council, People's Association, Residents' Committee Secretariat and the Singapore Action Group of Elders.

The Member for Bo Wen said that the public assistance allowance is not enough. Public assistance is given to help the financially disabled. It is not meant as an unemployment, retirement or disability benefit. The rates of public assistance allowance are fixed below the minimum household expenditure level so as to discourage the total dependence on public welfare and to encourage the able-bodied recipients to seek employment.

As at December 1985, 24% of the public assistance cases supplement their income through work schemes or assistance from their families and friends. Those who can work can apply for an interest-freeloan of up to $2,000 plus some initial grant to start a small business under the Self-employment Assistance Scheme. Those who are not able to work are helped with additional cash assistance from charitable funds managed by my Ministry or the voluntary organizations. 44% of the public assistance recipients received additional financial assistance. 32% of the public assistance recipients live in homes run by the voluntary welfare organizations and, with the community support, they are well taken care of.

The public assistance rates are revised every two years. The increase in the minimum household expenditure from the date of the last review in 1983 to 1985 was only 1.58%. This small increase does not, in my view, justify an upward revision of the public assistance rates. The rates may be revised in the next review, if the situation warrants it.

The Member also asked for the number of aged recipients of public assistance who live in 1-room HDB flats. They constitute 26.6% of the total number of public assistance recipients. These single aged public assistance recipients living in 1-room HDB flats normally live with one or two other room-mates, and they provide supportive help to one another. They are also matched with Befrienders in the Ministry's Befrienders Scheme. Befrienders and Home Help Makers visit them regularly to help them prepare the meals and their household chores. The Home Nursing Foundation also provides nursing care to those who need such services.

Many Members, for example, the Member for Yuhua, Thomson, Braddell Heights, Serangoon Gardens, asked what the Ministry intends to do about cultural promotion. My Ministry's policy and long range plans on culture will be guided by the Government's vision of a culturally vibrant society by 1999. My Ministry will aim to achieve wide spread participation in cultural pursuits. It will nurture the spirit of experimentation and creativity in the arts. It will facilitate the attainment of excellence in the arts. It will cultivate the appreciation of cultural heritage and it will promote the reading habit among the people.

We would like our citizens to cultivate an interest in listening to music, appreciating painting, reading literature and taking part in creative activity. There needs to be sustained exposure to these spiritually satisfying experience and activities so that we do not become an overly materialistic society.

We will also promote social cohesion by encouraging our citizens to appreciate one another's culture. Hopefully this would pave the way towards the evolution of a Singapore cultural identity which the Member for Serangoon Gardens referred to.

The strategy to achieve this is to involve cultural organizations, community centres, schools, commercial organizations, trade unions, clan associations and the media and others in this task. The Government will create a conducive environment for everyone to pursue artistic activities for self-enrichment or as a profession. This cultural promotion effort should be accompanied by the equally important task of cultivating excellence in arts. We should nurture our own artistes so that distinctive Singaporean art works may reflect our values, beliefs and way of life. Professionalism and excellence in the arts will be encouraged.

In the pursuit of our vision of a culturally vibrant society, my Ministry will formulate policies and coordinate their implementation. It will play a catalytic role in cultural promotion. It will nurture arts organizations and professional arts companies through financial grants, arts administration training and provision of rehearsal space in Government buildings at very low rentals. It will continue to sustain the momentum for cultural activities by staging performances of renowned artistes, troops from overseas and to raise the standard of excellence and level of arts appreciation. It will provide training in the arts to students and young aspiring artistes in collaboration with the Ministry of Education. It will upgrade existing facilities and develop, explore new facilities including a Fine Arts Museum and a cultural complex. It will stimulate a cultural environment by encouraging the installation of art works by the private sector and arranging outdoor cultural activities. In all these, the National Museum, the National Archives and Oral History Department, the National Library will also help to promote our historical and cultural heritage.

I would now like to come to the specific questions raised by some of the Members.

The Members for Siglap, Yuhua and Thomson and Braddell Heights touched on the facilities for youths and artistes who participate in informal and formal cultural activities. Part of the answer has been provided by my Minister of State. My Ministry has been arranging outdoor performances in parks, shopping centres, community centres and libraries. We are now arranging for artists to paint and sell their works at the Bras Basah Park, Orchard Mall or Elizabeth Walk. We shall explore with the relevant authorities the possibilities of allowing our youths or artistes to perform in these areas or other venues. We are also planning to move the art galleries from the National Museum to a new place and will expand it to a Fine Arts Museum. It will have adequate exhibi- tion areas for displaying the permanent art collection of the museum and for rental to arts organization to hold exhibitions.

I am pleased to inform the Member for Braddell Heights that the Singapore Society of Chinese Artists which he referred to yesterday is now being housed in the Nanyang Academy of Fine Arts. The Society had declined our help when we offered them accommodation in the Telok Ayer School because they thought that the space was not adequate. The Ministry will continue to look for more buildings to accommodate these art organizations.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens seeks clarification on the term "national cultural identity" and wants to know how the theatres can help to promote this identity. National cultural identity refers to a set of characteristics and qualities which typifies the artistic expression of our nation. It will take time to evolve. It is not possible to pressure cook it. But this identity will be a potential bonding force giving our people a sense of belonging and oneness. It will reflect the values, the aspirations and way of life of our people. The theatres provide the necessary basic staging areas or facilities for these artistes to perform their works and for the audience to appreciate them.

The increase in the contributions vote in FY 86 reflects the Ministry's aim to encourage more private organizations to present more events. In FY 85, 42 organizations received annual or project grants from the Ministry amounting to $190,000. For FY 86, the deadline for submission of applications for annual grants will be the end of this month. We will not know how much money will be given away until we have assessed the merits of each case.

I am in full sympathy with the Member for Whampoa in his desire for longer opening hours of his Whampoa part-time library. But I am sorry to inform him that there is no plan to extend the opening hours of the Whampoa part-time library due to manpower constraint and it was also not cost-effective to do so. Just the other day I heard him asking the Minister of State for Trade and Industry to ensure that Government expenditure in promoting trade exhibitions overseas is cost- effective. When faced with limited resources, a choice must be made on the use of these resources.

Before the shortening of the hours, the number of loans of books per annum handled by each staff was 18,579 compared to the minimum loan per staff at full-time branches of 22,356. Last year, when the opening hours were shortened, the loans handled by each staff increased to 28,710. I am sure he now understands why the Whampoa part-time library cannot be opened for longer hours and residents in Whampoa can take advantage of the Toa Payoh Library which is only about 1(r) km away from Whampoa.

The Member for Anson asked whether the Registry of Marriages can refuse to register a marriage. The function of the Registrar of Marriages is to solemnize and register marriages so long as they fulfil the conditions laid down in the Women's Charter. But the requirements of the Women's Charter cannot be confused with the requirements or conditions laid down by the Commissioner for Employment or the Controller of Immigration. Under the present policy, a work permit holder must obtain the approval of the Commissioner for Employment before he marries a Singapore citizen. A foreigner who wants to work in Singapore is given a work permit to do so and this is the basis of issuing him with a work permit. It is not for him to marry in Singapore.

Singapore citizens who marry foreigners are told that the marriage does not confer on their spouse the right to be a permanent resident of Singapore. Permanent residence is a privilege and not a right, as the Minister for Home Affairs said the other day. Before a marriage is registered or when an inquiry is made of the Registrar of Marriages by a couple, one of whom is not a citizen, he or she is given a letter by the Registrar of Marriages. He or she is also given a copy of a notice given by the Immigration Department and in both these letters, they state very clearly that the marriage does not confer upon him or her the right to reside in Singapore.

The Members for Siglap and Serangoon Gardens also asked about the Feedback Unit. I have given a reply the other day to the Member for Kaki Bukit. The Feedback Unit is a useful channel for the Government to get an idea of how the people feel and what sort of problems they face in regard to the issues at hand. It is not the only channel of feedback to the Government. There are many other channels, such as the Residents' Committees, Citizens' Consultative Committees, professional groups, trade unions, employer organizations and so on. All the activities of the Feedback Unit are widely publicized and they have been reported a number of times in the media. As far as I am aware, the manpower required for the current function is enough. There are people who write in, phone in, walk in, to the Unit and there is no need to establish a special research group to gather feedback. But more will be done by the Feedback Unit this year through direct contacts with the people through seminars, forums organized with the help of the People's Association at the community centres. We also help to arrange meetings of trade and professional groups with relevant Government ministries.

I believe I have answered all the questions raised by the various Members, Sir.

Dr Arthur Beng Kian Lam: Sir, may I rise on a point of clarification with the Minister of State. The Minister of State has mentioned that the MPs who are requesting for further subsidies should approach the Ministry of Finance. Do I take it then that we have the support of the People's Association Board and the Minister of State?

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I said just now that I would ask the People's Association to look into the suggestions. If there are good reasons to support, PA will then take it up with the Ministry of Finance.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, the Acting Minister referred to cost-effectiveness and he used the number of loans of books per staff member. I believe that that is not a complete criterion to use in this case because a branch library affords facilities for reference books which are not taken out of the library and it is also a nice and quiet place to study in. Furthermore, the Toa Payoh Library, although as the crow flies, is only 1(r) km away, but in order for residents to get from Whampoa to Toa Payoh Library it involves a couple of buses and there are transportation costs involved. Furthermore, in the evening hours, it is not desirable that young children travel that far for the purpose of using a library. So I would appeal to him to provide the necessary staff to operate the Whampoa branch library on a full-time basis.

Dr Aline K. Wong (Changkat): On a point of clarification, Sir. I would like to ask the Minister of State whether he has forgotten about my request, ie, the minimal facilities that I requested for senior citizens in the senior citizens' corners, apart from the HDB void decks. Or is he saying that perhaps he would entertain the idea if we individually apply for permission to install these facilities.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: ( In Mandarin): Sir, if I understand her correctly, the Member wants a certain portion of void decks in HDB estates to be set aside for the aged people to gather together. I said that HDB since last December has been providing such facilities in new housing estates. As regards old estates where the RC advisers have received such requests, we shall consider them and, if necessary, we will raise them with the HDB.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, I understand the concern of the Member for Whampoa but I feel that he really does not like his own medicine. The library has to open for limited hours because the library does not have enough staff, and so a choice has to be made as to how the staff are to be deployed. As for preferences, of course, you can only use the library when the library is open. So the residents should try as far as possible to arrange within their own convenience as to when they are able to find the time to visit the library. I know the place quite well too. The library is next to the community centre. In order to use the place just for reading, I believe the community centre must have reading facilities for these members who want to use the library for reading only.

To supplement the answer given by my Minister of State on the question raised by the Member for Changkat on senior citizens' corner, I believe that it is really better for senior citizens to use the facilities of the Residents' Committees rather than to set up a place of their own because those facilities are already available in the Residents' Committees and there is no need to duplicate them. She said that we should leave the senior citizens to organize themselves, that we should leave them to be spontaneous and informal in the environment rather than to organize them. They will not be forced to organize. All they need to do is to use the facilities, do things for themselves, and lead their own lives. They do not have to bother other younger members of the Residents' Committees.

Dr Augustine Tan: On a point of clarification, Sir. The notion of cost-effectiveness involves the comparison between benefits and costs, and the Acting Minister has simply looked at the cost without looking at the benefits. He must think in terms of these young minds that we want to develop for the benefit of the future of Singapore. Who knows, among them there may be another Acting Minister for Community Development?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: I understand, Sir, that when you do an analysis you need to look at both the benefit as well as the cost. That is the meaning of cost-effectiveness. I must thank the Member for Whampoa for his simple lesson. Measuring the number of loans handled by a staff member is one way of measuring cost-effectiveness. How effective it is for a particular staff and how much it costs in terms of salary for the staff, all that has been taken into account in the analysis. Of course, there are other side benefits for opening the library for longer hours, for example people do not have to travel that far. But the individual really has to weigh what he needs against what is convenient to him or her. If he or she finds it inconvenient to use the library at a particular time, then he or she should fix another time to do so. He or she should not try to use the library only when the library is not opened.

Toa Payoh, although it is 1(r) km away as the crow flies, is really not that far. You can really walk to Toa Payoh by just crossing Jalan Tentaram and Jalan Toa Payoh and that is Toa Payoh. Even though it may be inconvenient taking a bus, but when you walk it is not that far, probably 15 minutes, and I think it will also do some good to the physical well-being of the library member.

The Chairman: It is 1.00 pm.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend this Sitting and will take the Chair again at 2.30 pm.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 1.00 pm until 2.30 pm. Sitting resumed at 2.30 pm

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head J (cont.) -

The Minister for the Environment (Dr Ahmad Mattar): Mr Chairman, Sir, I am replying in my capacity as the Minister-in-charge of Muslim affairs.

First of all, I would like to thank hon. Members for their views and comments on the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS) and matters related to it, the proposed Islamic Centre of Singapore and the Syariah Court. I shall divide my replies into the three subjects I have just categorized.

MUIS matters.

Sir, this topic covers a broad spectrum of issues and I shall endeavour to answer them all. I shall deal with the Islamic Religious Schools or Madrasahs first.

Sir, under sections 81 and 82 of the Administration of Muslim Law Act (AMLA), MUIS is responsible for the control and supervision of these religious schools. A comprehensive study on various aspects of Islamic religious education in Singapore has been made jointly with MENDAKI, with the view to implementing these sections. Arising from this study, a paper on Islamic Religious Schools in Singapore which, among other things, incorporates matters related to curricula, salary scales of teachers and other recommendations, has been prepared. Discussions on this paper and also on the implementation of sections 81 and 82 have been held with representatives of the Madrasahs and with the religious teachers themselves. Needless to say, Sir, the objective of implementing sections 81 and 82 of AMLA is to ensure that an improved system of Islamic religious education will replace the present system to meet the political, economic and social challenges in Singapore. MUIS has made tentative plans to set up a Religious Education Unit for this purpose.

With regard to staff upgrading, I must say that MUIS officers are from time to time sent to the Civil Service Institute and other institutes to attend relevant training courses which these institutes hold for civil servants and statutory board employees. And among the training courses attended by MUIS officers so far are Personnel Management Courses, Statistics and Its Applications for Division II Officers, Computer Courses, and Financial Administration Courses.

Sir, I take note of the Member for Geylang Serai's suggestion that MUIS develops a core group of local and international Muslim scholars to advise on issues faced by Muslims here, so that in our eagerness to absorb new ideas brought about by developments in science and technology we do not, in the words of the Member, Sir, "breach the fundamental teachings of Islam." I could not agree with the Member more. It would be a valuable asset, not only to MUIS but also to Singapore Muslims in general, if we could set up such a panel. But to get a scholar who has a fair balance of temporal and spiritual background is a very difficult, if not impossible, task within the Singapore context. However, since last year the Fatwa Committee of MUIS has been initiating action to invite local religious scholars or Ulamas to monthly meetings to discuss and seek their views on matters pertaining to current issues directly affecting Muslims here. I would like to assure the Member for Geylang Serai that his suggestion has not fallen on deaf ears. I do not rule out entirely the role of local and international Muslim scholars who can make significant contributions towards achieving this objective. Action has also been taken by MUIS to compile the names of Muslim professionals in the various disciplines with the view to consulting them if the need arises. One such group comprising

31 Muslim professionals in accountancy and related disciplines is already assisting MUIS in the auditing of mosque accounts. Referred to as Honorary Accounting Auditors, these professionals are advising Treasurers of Mosque Management Committees and Mosque Building Committees in preparing their accounts. Sir, this area of work is becoming increasingly important in view of the greater volume of transactions each of these mosques is handling.

On deviationist and false Islamic teachings, Sir, the best way to check their spread is by upgrading the Islamic religious knowledge among Muslims and by raising public awareness against such teachings. Therefore, MUIS continually exhorts the Muslim public to be wary of such deviant teachings through statements in the press and other MUIS publications, religious lectures and Friday sermons.

On the Qadiani, or also known as the Ahmaddiya Movement, Sir, the House may want to take note that the Qadianis have been regarded as non-Muslims throughout the Muslim world. And in some Muslim countries the Movement has even been banned. In Singapore, Sir, they have re-built their place of worship at Onan Road in Geylang Serai Constituency and blatantly called it a mosque. They have also, from time to time, distributed copies of their publications to Muslims here. These are acts of serious provocation. The matter is being actively looked into by MUIS and the other local Muslim organizations.

For the information of Members, Sir, "Deviant Teachings will be the major topic to be discussed at an Islamic Convention to be organized in September this year by the Central Muslim Missionary Committee (often referred to as the Central JHD) under the auspices of MUIS.

With regard to Mosque Building Programme of MUIS, I regret to say that the current recession is beginning to affect voluntary contributions to the Mosque Building Fund (MBF). According to the MBF statistics compiled, twice a year for MUIS by the CPF Board, the number of working Muslims who contributed to the Fund fell from 142,018 in May 1985 to 136,261 in October 1985 - a decrease of 5,757 persons or 4.05%. The corresponding decrease in MBF collection was $10,473. As the next statistical information is only available in May this year, a further comparison cannot be made at this juncture. However, working on the nett total collection of $3.68 million for the MBF in 1985 and comparing it with the $3.96 million collected in 1984, there was therefore a decrease of about $280,000 or 7.07% in 1985. The decrease does cause some concern to MUIS, especially taking into account the possibility of the annual collection being further eroded and also the likelihood of building costs picking up when the economy recovers. However, barring these two elements, the on-going Phase II Mosque Building Programme of MUIS would not be significantly hindered.

On Darul Ghufran Mosque in Tampines, Sir, the Member for Geylang Serai may be pleased to know that tenders will be called in September this year and construction work is expected to begin in January 1987. HDB architects are presently working on the model of this mosque.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I shall now turn to Wakaff Properties. Under section 59 of AMLA, MUIS is responsible for the administration of wakaff properties. Presently, eight wakafs are under MUIS charge. However, there are other wakaffs which are not administered by MUIS. Surviving trustees are administering them. The eight wakaffs under MUIS fall into four categories - mosques, cemetery lands, business properties and residential properties.

The respective Mosque Management Committees are responsible for the maintenance of the mosques while MUIS looks after cemetery lands, business and residential premises. The few cemetery lands which it owns have been officially closed for burials. As for business and residential wakaff properties, they are, without exception, pre-1947 buildings and are therefore subject to the Rent Control Act.

The Ministry of National Development has recently served notices on MUIS against three wakaff properties, namely, Wakaff Masjid Kassim at Changi Road, Wakaff Jabbar at Duku Road and Masjid Abdul Hamid at Gentle Road. MUIS has been asked to clear the temporary structures on these wakaff properties and to landscape the area cleared. Alternatively, action must be initiated to prepare these wakaffs for redevelopment.

MUIS is arranging to meet all the parties who are directly involved in the management of the properties of the three wakaffs to decide on the course of action to take to comply with the Ministry of National Development's directive so as to save these properties from being compulsorily acquired.

However, I must add, Sir, that redevelopment will require expenditure of some magnitude to revoke tenancies, to pay compensations to tenants, and to meet construction costs. Unfortunately, Sir, MUIS does not have the funds for this purpose. It is, therefore, for Muslim organizations to pool their financial resources if the proposal is to be implemented. But, as administrators of wakaff properties, Sir, MUIS has faithfully discharged its responsibilities such as the collection of rents and the maintenance of these properties.

Mr Chairman, Sir, I share wholeheartedly the Member for Pasir Panjang's concern and anxiety over the long delay in the renovation of Keramat Habib Noh and the adjacent Masjid Haji Mohammed Salleh at Palmer Road. Hon. Members may still remember that the decision to renovate the Keramat and the Masjid was taken in early 1983. It is three years now and work has yet to start. It is much faster to build a multi-purpose mosque in a New Town than to give a facelift to the Keramat. A more expeditious handling of the matter by the Departments concerned would have saved much time in completing the project. But I would like to assure the Member for Pasir Panjang that I will closely monitor its progress and ensure that it is completed within the period targetted. I hope the Member would not have to raise the issue again when this House sits in Committee of Supply next year.

As for the Haj service, Sir, I do not intend to go over it again as measures taken by MUIS for this year's Haj have been widely reported in the local press and over SBC's Radio 2. All I can say is that MUIS will continue with its efforts to ensure the smooth running of its Haj service. Those of us who have performed the Haj will, I am sure, agree that there will always be problems - bound to be. There is no running away from problems - not when there are 2-2(r) million people all assembled at a particular place at almost the same time. However, I have been assured by the Saudi Minister for Pilgrimage and Endowments, when he was here as my guest last year, that every effort is made by his Government to minimize these problems.

With regard to pilgrim brokers, Sir, Members may be pleased to know that the duties and responsibilities of these brokers have been revised. One such revision requires all selected pilgrim brokers to undergo a thorough physical examination by medical officers at Government Outpatient Dispensaries. This requirement is imposed on pilgrim brokers this year to ensure that they have a clean bill of health to enable them to carry out their various duties in the Holy Land effectively.

On the appointment of pilgrim brokers, care was taken to weed out those who have been found wanting. For instance, arising from complaints received against a pilgrim broker at last year's Haj, MUIS has, after substantiating these complaints, barred him from participating in this year's pilgrimage exercise.

Sir, apart from charging more than the other pilgrim brokers who provided similar services, this particular broker was not able to provide any accommodation in Mina for his pilgrims, although the fees paid to him were inclusive of accommodation, transportation, food, etc, etc. He was not concerned about the welfare of his pilgrims. Sick pilgrims were left unattended and had to look for medical treatment on their own. He did not make any effort at all to look for one of his pilgrims who was reported lost. And on the return leg of the journey, Sir, he had brought his pilgrims to Jeddah Airport six days in advance without providing any accommodation and food. This created problems for his pilgrims. I am sure Members will agree that we can all do without this kind of pilgrim broker who obviously was motivated only by commercial considerations.

The Member for Siglap has made some pertinent observations on the JHDs. As the Member is aware, the main function of the JHD is to coordinate missionary activities in the districts where they are located. "How are the activities of the District JHDs coordinated by the Central JHD?" he asked. Sir, the Central JHD meets from time to time to discuss matters relating to activities to be organized as well as to deliberate over current issues affecting the Muslim community, particularly those in consonant with its objective. Two Exco members of each District JHD are represented at these meetings. Activities to be carried out by District JHDs are first discussed at Central JHD meetings before they are implemented.

How can Muslim organizations know the District JHDs they belong to? Sir, District JHDs are usually identified with the HDB Housing Estates in which such district committees are located. District Muslim organizations including block committees, mosques, madrasahs, suraus, are all invited to attend the annual general meeting of their District JHDs in which their representatives are nominated to serve on the JHDs. Being the components of the District JHDs, the Muslim organizations in the district would, without doubt, know to which district they belong.

Sir, I shall now turn to the proposed Islamic Centre of Singapore (ICS). I welcome the suggestions from the Member for Kampong Ubi that will go towards making the ICS of MUIS the focal point of Islamic activities and a centre of Islamic intellectual learning in Singapore. With regard to staffing, it is expected that new appointments may have to be made if the ICS is to be adequately managed. One of the main areas of work to be given priority is the establishment of the Library cum Reference Centre which, to all intents and purposes, will eventually serve as an Islamic Resource Centre.

The Member for Geylang Serai may be happy to know that his suggestion that Muslim scholars of international repute be invited to come to Singapore on a regular basis is already in the ICS pipeline.

For the information of Members, work on the ICS will be completed towards the end of 1987. And as MUIS will occupy two floors of the seven-storey building, the need to upgrade MUIS' present office, as suggested by the Member for Pasir Panjang, therefore, does not arise.

Next, the Syariah Court. On this subject, Sir, the Member for Kampong Ubi has spoken on staff shortages in the Court and on the salary scales of the Court's staff. The Court has an approved establishment of 10 permanent staff comprising the President of the Court, an Executive Officer, two Clerical Officers, three Muslim Social Case Workers, a Typist, a Process-cum-Notice Server and an Office Attendant. Except for one post of Muslim Social Case Worker which will be filled soon, the remaining posts are all filled.

As the Member has quite rightly pointed out, the number of new cases registered by the Syariah Court has been increasing at an average annual rate of 7% over the last five years. In terms of numbers, the average number of new cases registered each year during the last five years is 1,500. The Budget Division of the Finance Ministry, recognizing the increase in the workload of the Syariah Court, approved the creation of one additional post of Clerical Officer in 1984 and an additional post of Muslim Social Case Worker for FY 85. I expect this latter post to be filled soon. With this additional Muslim Social Case Worker, the Syariah Court expects to be able to clear marital dispute cases more expeditiously. I do not therefore consider it necessary at this point of time to create another post of Registrar for the Court.

As far as salary scales for the President, the Muslim Social Case Workers, and indeed for all staff of the Syariah Court, are concerned, they are fixed at levels commensurate with the academic qualifications required and the nature of their duties and responsibilities. They must also be comparable with other posts in the Civil Service requiring comparable qualifications.

Sir, I think I have answered most, if not all, of the queries raised by Members.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $106,433,720 for Head J ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $31,441,100 for Head J ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head Q -

Dr Aline K. Wong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead QA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I wish to speak on the immigration laws governing permanent residence and citizenship. I feel prompted to speak on this matter because of the number of cases I have come across in my meet-the-people sessions, also because of the tremendous emotional as well as other kinds of hardship which I find our Singaporeans are going through because their family members are being affected by these laws.

I would like to urge the Minister to give his most sympathetic consideration to the following categories of applications. First, the aged parents of Singapore citizens. No doubt they may add to the burden of social and medical costs, but since hospitalization costs can now be borne by the children's Medisave accounts and since a great deal of social amenities are already provided by the community and by voluntary efforts, the aditional burden to the State is likewise reduced. In any case, I think the number of existing cases of aged parents remaining must be rather small by now and therefore what is the reason why they cannot be accommodated?

The second category of applicants who I think deserve sympathetic consideration are the brothers and sisters who are the only non-citizens in the family. Many of them have literally grown up in Singapore, gone through school here and are either working or not working. A lot of them could have been born in Singapore were it not for the ignorance of their parents who went back to Malaysia to give birth because there the pregnant woman could receive better care from relatives. But for all practical purposes, these people have grown up here and, as I said, gone through school here. And since they have deep family roots and they have gone through school here, do we not stand to benefit from the investment in their education if we integrate them into our society by granting them permanent residence? If it is a matter of their not having the required skills, either because the primary school education or secondary school education is only a general education, I would suggest that they could be required to take up courses at our technical and vocational institutes before considering them for permanent residence. In this way, we would be reaping benefits from the return of the educational investment that we have given them. Again, the number of cases must be quite limited by now.

A third category who deserve sympathetic consideration are the foreign spouses of Singapore citizens. Sir, it is a very good approach now that the Ministry is widely publicizing our policy that marriage does not automatically confer the right to permanent residence for foreign spouses. Still two kinds of questions remain. One, is not the present practice of giving short social visit passes a little too harsh, particularly for newly married couples? In the past, social visit passes were granted for longer periods, one to two months that can be extended up to a number of times per stretch. Now it is two weeks each time, up to a certain number of times each stretch. I think people need some time before they can finalize plans to leave the country, even where the Singapore spouses may decide to leave with their foreign spouses. They need time to find a new job, time to sell their houses, time to wind up their businesses, etc. By granting short social visit passes to the foreign spouses, are we not also penalizing our own citizens for marrying foreigners?

A second question that arises is the fact that it is more difficult for foreign spouses who are men to obtain permanent residence than for foreign spouses who are women. Sir, let us face it. This is a women's issue. Why should Singapore women receive different treatment from Singapore men who marry foreign spouses? One sometimes hear the explanation that we are Asians and in the Asian tradition, the women follow the men. So Singapore women are said to be free to follow the foreign spouses to settle elsewhere. But if we allow the children born in Singapore of Singapore mothers to be citizens and allow them to live and study in Singapore, are we not causing families to separate when their fathers have to leave the country? When we allow people to purchase HDB flats, so long as there is one citizen and one permanent resident in the family nucleus, are we not landing the women in very difficult situations when their husbands have to leave the country? The solution, Sir, is not, and I repeat not, to reverse the situation for children or for home buyers. Nor is the solution to impose the same conditions for foreign spouses who are women. To reverse the foreign policy is tantamount to going back on the principle of shared misery.

Instead I would like to suggest an idea to the Minister to consider. If this idea is feasible, I think it may reduce the number of cases of family separation immediately. Can we not consider giving special consideration to foreign spouses who are men who are supporting schooling children who are Singapore citizens? Treat this as an additional ground for special consideration, over and above the normal requirements of work, skills, education, length of stay, etc. I doubt very much people will start having many children because of this criterion. In fact, the number of children should not be linked to this special consideration at all. We are talking about the number of existing cases.

This additional criterion does not mean that the present conditions would be made even more stringent. On the contrary, recognition will be given to the fact that the foreign spouses are contributing to our society through providing support and guidance to Singapore children. Perhaps as a first step we can restrict the criterion to schooling children who are already attending secondary school. By that age, the father would have lived and worked in Singapore for at least 13 and up to 18 years. By that stage also it is extremely difficult for a family to leave Singapore because the children's education would be greatly disrupted. Sir, I would therefore be very grateful if the Minister could consider this suggestion.

Finally, since our basic philosophy behind the permanent residence and citizenship rules is that we want to remain an open society, we could absorb more talents into our society, ie, people who can contribute to our society. In defining talents and contributions, I wonder if we have not been using our definition rather narrowly, concentrating on those with education, skills or economic ability. But in view of our long term goal of becoming a creative and cultivative society, I think we should give due emphasis to those with talents and ideas in art and culture. Perhaps the Minister could clarify his stand on this question and inform us whether in deliberating applications from, say, artistes, writers, craftsmen, religious and community workers, will the relevant bodies other than the EDB or the MTI or the Professional Information and Placement Services, that is the PIPS, be consulted?

Mr Bernard Chen (Clementi): Sir, I would just like to comment on the recent series of rock concerts and discos organized by the Police for our young Singaporeans. This series has created a lot of excitement, not least among the young ones but also among the old ones. There are various schools of thought on this. One school has it that this is a good way to get rid of all the excess energy that our youths have but found no recourse. By getting them off the streets and to let them take part in healthy, wholesome, dancing and exercise their muscles, one would hope that we can give them some profitable means of recreation and also to strike up a better relationship with the Police Force which, until recently, has appeared to be more disciplinarians than friends in help. In particular, when we talk about crime prevention and law enforcement, we need the cooperation of our citizens, young and old, to cooperate with the Police Force.

But there is another school of thought that says that while this could be a good means of providing recreation, but with the kind of culture and stigma attached to discos and rock concerts, has the Police not gone too far? Traditionally, in other countries, rock concerts and discos may have links with drugs, crime and other undesirable activities. Parents whose children go to these concerts always harbour the reservation that the children may get into bad company.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he can enlighten the House on the rationale behind the Police Force concentration in these activities, and to ask him whether there are any safeguards that can be instituted to prevent the concerts and discos that we have in Singapore from degenerating into the kind that we see in other countries.

The other matter which I would like to bring up is mahjong. I think with the recent enactment of the amendments on the Gambling Acts we are seeing less of illegal gambling in housing estates, which is a good thing. But there seems to be stories going around that people who are caught playing mahjong are also being arrested, so much so that the people in the street think that if they play mahjong at home they may also be arrested. I am sure many Members of this House always use to play mahjong for recreation. I am quite sure it is not the intention of the Ministry of Home Affairs to deprive citizens of this pastime. One can understand when this kind of recreation activity blossoms into a gambling house, as in some cases where houses cater to about five or even ten mahjong games at the same time, causing intolerable noise and inconvenience to neighbours and residents. But surely when there is a game of mahjong among four good friends or relatives, I think this is wholesome. I am quite sure that the Ministry would not look at this with the same kind of abhorrence that they look at illegal gambling. Perhaps the Minister can clarify this matter so that those of us who are addicted to it or those of us who indulge in it as an occasional means of recreation can keep on playing mahjong safely.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have just two matters to raise with the hon. Minister.

The first matter is the unprecedented number of fires resulting in deaths in 1985. Here, I would like to ask the Minister what steps are being taken to ensure that the Singapore Fire Service has the capability to deal with this problem and also whether they have uncovered any evidence of arson.

The second point I would like to raise is on immigration. Sir, from time to time we hear of illegal immigrants being caught and prosecuted. Can the Minister inform us what is the extent and the problem, and what measures are being taken both with regard to the illegal immigrants or illegal overstayers as well as persons who harbour them or employ them. By employing illegal immigrants, employers save costs at the expense of depriving our citizens of job opportunities. I hope the Minister will give some clarification on this aspect.

Mr Heng Chiang Meng (Jalan Kayu): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would first like to congratulate the Minister for Home Affairs on the work that he and his multi-disciplined team played in the rescue of the people trapped by the Hotel New World disaster. It is heartening indeed to see our forces on the alert, ever ready to do their duty.

Sir, I do not think that I am exaggerating when I say that all Singaporeans salute the marvellous work done. Nobody could have done any better. While all involved in the rescue work, Sir, deserve commendation, I would however like to single out the Civil Defence Force for special mention. Why? Because, Sir, the majority of them are volunteer; because many Singaporeans may not have been paying much significance to Civil Defence; because they were seen by many to be Cinderallas of Total Defence; and because they were ridiculed as Singapore's version of "Dad's Army." Well, now we have seen what Dad's Army can do and what they have done. However, I must add that it is sad that it took a major disaster of this scale to show the need for Civil Defence. In this respect, Sir, I hope that the Ministry will follow up on this good work and drive home the point to all Singaporeans that Civil Defence is absolutely necessary. I hope too that the Minister will consider a special award to this group of brave volunteers, ordinary people like you and me, yet so determined to risk their lives that others may live.

However, Sir, in the longer term we know that it is difficult to hold the interest of Civil Defence volunteers. We know that it is difficult to get the womenfolk and the older menfolk to attend training. Yet we also know at the same time that training and being alert at all times are crucial. I am aware that the Civil Defence authorities have a host of programmes such as hikes, quizzes, contests, to keep their spirits going. However, Sir, these do not seem to be enough. Hence, I would like to propose that the Ministry organize on a nation-wide basis an annual series of telematch contests. These contests could be on an inter-constituency basis. The skills needed for this contest must be related to those skills needed for Civil Defence work. Most important, the concept of this contest must be geared to television coverage as it is only through television that the interests of the whole nation could be captured.

Sir, I remember several years ago a telematch series from Europe that was shown on the local television station. I think it was a rather successful programme. If Singapore viewers could be interested in telematch games played between obscure European towns, I do not really see any reason why the same viewers would not be interested in their own version of telematch games. So I would think that there would be interest in this and the games will certainly help to create more interest in Civil Defence work.

Sir, I would now like to touch on the subject of road etiquette and education. But first may I ask the Minister whether it is true that there had been a significant improvement in the rate of road accidents. Could he please elaborate on this to the House?

I would also like to ask the Minister what are the policies and the measures which the Traffic Police will take to further reduce the accident rate, especially those on our highways and expressways. Only last Monday, Sir, the Straits Times carried a report on the observations of a British transportation expert currently working with the Traffic Police to promote expressway safety. I am sure that there are a few of us in this House who would disagree with his observations. However, Sir, I think he did miss out on one observation, or at least it was not reported. Here I am referring to those obnoxious creatures of the road which we normally call road hogs. How often, Sir, have we driven behind such drivers chugging along merrily on the road, on the right hand side of expressways? How often have we in frustration resort to overtaking on the left, thus risking not only our lives and our passengers but also other road users? The tragedy of all this is that many of these road hogs sincerely and truly believe that they are not in the wrong as long as they are driving within the appropriate speed limits. Expressway driving is relatively new in Singapore. Many still do not know the rights and wrongs of expressway road sense and etiquette. Yet at the same time, high speeds and slow reaction more often than not mean fatal accidents. There is indeed an immense need for education in this area. Greater publicity must be given to ensure that Singapore drivers understand the concept of road sense and safety on expressways. Perhaps legislation of some sort may be required. In this respect, I hope that the Minister will not forget that education and rewards for good driving also go a long way towards higher standard of road safety. The Traffic Police should not rely too much on punishing the bad drivers only.

May I now, Sir, turn to community oriented policing, the marvellous plan of turning policemen into friends of the community instead of ogres to frighten little children. Can the Minister tell the House what measures the Police are taking in their efforts to harness the support of the community in crime prevention and whether the Police have achieved any success in this regard? But before the Minister gives us his answer for the nation, may I appeal once again for more measures to be taken for my constituency.

Last year, I appealed for a neighbourhood police post in that part of Ang Mo Kio which is in Jalan Kayu constituency. The reasons then are still valid today. I was told that the NPP date for that part of Ang Mo Kio is 1988 but as the Government is now trying to hasten development projects to stimulate the economy, could it not also stimulate the building of more NPPs and hasten its time-table? It will definitely benefit the residents. It will also benefit the contractors who get the job. It will also benefit the policemen who will become friends of the community at a sooner date. You see, Sir, it will benefit everybody. Yet I do not understand why this cannot be done very much earlier.

However, Sir, this is not all; because Jalan Kayu is a large constituency and I understand that another NPP is supposed to be built in 1987 in Seletar Road. I now understand that even this is to be postponed. Perhaps the Minister can give me an explanation in this House. I was told by residents there that even the frequency of bicycle patrols in the private residential estate has been reduced. Again, this is something which I find strange. I would like to tell the Minister that perhaps the lack of crime or little crime in my constituency is more because of the good work that they have done, and in order to continue the low level of crime the good work should be continued.

Sir, I make no apologies for bringing these parochial issues to the House. In matters of law and order and safety for my constituents, I would rather be silly than sorry.

May I now, Sir, touch on the Singapore Fire Service. Firstly, I would like to ask the Minister why there were so many fires in 1985. Was arson linked to most of these fires? In this respect, how many of the fires were related to commercial and industrial properties? During difficult economic times, it is not uncommon to hear of businessmen in financial difficulties setting fire to their own properties to collect insurance money. Fires may also be started by jealous business rivals competing for a dwindling market in these difficult times. I am aware that when I say this I am only stating possible scenarios and not actual cases that I know of. However, what I want to emphasize is that we cannot rule out the possibility of a correlation between the number of fires and the severity of the recession. I do hope that there is no proof of this possible correlation. In any case it will certainly ease the minds of all Singaporeans if the Minister can tell us of the steps being taken to ensure that the Singapore Fire Service has the capability to deal with all possibilities.

Dr Ow Chin Hock (Leng Kee): ( In Mandarin): Sir, I am different from the Member for Jalan Kayu. I will raise only two points. There is something to praise and something to criticise about the Police. The point of merit is the setting up of the Neighbourhood Police. It has improved the relationship between the Police and the residents. In my constituency, since the setting up of neighbourhood police post, I was told that the residents wanted to present the NPP with bonsais for decoration. Children have treated the NPP policemen as friends. Our community leaders have also invited the NPP police inspector to functions and both sides have struck up good and harmonious relationship, mutually contributing to law and order and the security of the estate. Therefore, I would like to praise the efforts and the good performance of the Police in this respect.

But I notice that in the 1986 manpower expenditure estimates of the Police Force, there is a reduction of $13 million whereas manpower will be reduced by 61 posts, namely, from 9,663 posts reduced to 9,602 posts. The Minister for Finance mentioned in his Budget statement that the Government is trying to reduce manpower expenditure in the public sector. I would like to ask the Minister whether in this exercise of cutting costs, neighbourhood police posts will also be affected. If this exercise does not affect NPPs, then the Member for Jalan Kayu and other Members will feel more assured.

On the question of gambling and mahjong mentioned by the Member for Clementi, I must declare that I do not like to play mahjong and I cannot play mahjong. Some people complained to me that the Police in carrying out raids on illegal gambling have been too enthusiastic. They confuse recreational games with gambling. They kill both the flies and the tigers. An old constituent reported to me that once she and some relatives were playing some card games at home, and they were arrested and put in CID lock-ups for some hours and had their fingerprints taken.This was a great shame to her because she felt that she was treated like a criminal. This has caused a strong reaction. I have told the Officer in Charge of Queenstown Police Station about this complaint. I am not raising a complaint here to the Minister, but just quoting an example.

Recently, during my tour in my constituency, some residents also asked me whether it is illegal to play mahjong at home. We know that many people, including perhaps the Member for Clementi and some old journalists and editors, like to play mahjong at home or at clubs with relatives or friends around the square table as a form of recreation. The purpose of my raising the matter here is the same as that of the Member for Clementi, that is, to ask the Minister to clarify the Police action. There are some people with ulterior motives who want to twist the meaning of the anti-gambling laws and purposely spread rumours and fear among the people regarding the meaning and intention of the law. So I hope the Minister will clarify and explain this matter so that these Singaporeans who indulge in these games may feel safe playing mahjong or cards as a form of recreation at home.

Encik Zulkifli bin Mohammed (Eunos): Sir, I intend to raise only two points with the Minister for Home Affairs. First, Sir, like the Member for Toa Payoh, I would like to touch on the issue of illegal immigrants. I read with deep concern a recent press report which highlighted the number of illegal immigrants detected in 1985 - 9,500 against 3,700 in 1983. This represents a 257% jump over a short span of two years, and this is indeed alarming. What we have to constantly remind ourselves is that for every case detected, there are many others that go undetected. To safeguard the well-being of our fellow citizens, Sir, I am all ears to hear the answers to be given by the Minister to the queries put forward by the Member for Toa Payoh. But at the same time I would like to ask the Minister just one question on this problem, ie, how effective is our Immigration Department's computerized checking system in tracking down illegal immigrants and overstayers?

The next issue, Sir, which I wish to raise is with regard to road safety along Bedok Reservoir Road, in particular the stretch from Bedok North Road junction to Bedok North Avenue 3 junction. Road safety there is endangered by illegal kerbside parking of vehicles, an issue which I first raised during the sitting of this House on 31st October, 1985. At that time, Sir, the Minister assured me that strict enforcement action has been taken and will continue to be taken by the Traffic Police. However, it is with regret that I have to inform the Minister that my constituents feel otherwise as the situation is not getting any better.

To illustrate, Sir, I would like to draw to the attention of the Ministry of Home Affairs that Bedok Reservoir Road which is a four-lane dual carriageway is often reduced to a two-lane dual carriageway, especially during the evenings when vehicles blatantly flout traffic rules by parking on both sides of the road. On behalf of my constituents, some of whom are having many sleepless nights over this, I strongly urge the Ministry to instruct the Traffic Police to review and step up their enforcement measures before the situation gets out of control. May I have the Hon. Minister's comments, please?

Mr Chiam See Tong (Potong Pasir): Sir, I would like to bring up a matter which has been brought up in this House before. I consider it important and I shall bring it up again. This is in regard to the detention of a former Member of Parliament, Chia Thye Poh. First of all, I have to make my position clear. I have never met Mr Chia nor any member of his family and I have no connections whatsoever with him. It is a matter of concern and I think everyone should be concerned that a citizen of our country can be detained for almost 20 years without bringing him to trial in an open court of law.

Mr Chia Thye Poh, I believe, was detained on the 29th October 1966 whilst taking part in a demonstration against the intervention of the Americans in Vietnam. It would appear that he was right after all. Time has proven that the Americans themselves realized that they have made a mistake in going into Vietnam and in 1975, on their own, they withdrew from the war there. Mr Chia is detained under the Internal Security Act which gives power to the Minister to detain a person without bringing him to court for trial for a period of two years, which is renewable for another two years. I understand that the condition for Mr Chia's release is that he should renounce his connections with the Communist United Front or, more particularly, with the Communist Party of Malaysia, and that he should also renounce his advocacy of using force to overthrow the Government. I believe that he has denied all these allegations. I believe that his father, Mr Chia Kit Kin, who has spoken to his son, has also said that those allegations are not true.

Now, whatever the allegations against him, I feel that the Minister must come out with concrete evidence, and if there is evidence, he should be brought before the court and charged. The Prime Minister himself, when he was in the Opposition, spoke out loudly and clearly against this piece of legislation. He was against detention without trial. He spoke out eloquently and said that detention was often made on hearsay evidence - Mr X complains about Mr Y and Mr Y makes a complaint, or alpha making an allegation against beta and then beta against gamma, and so forth. I suppose Members are familiar with that.

The other point which the Government said was that Mr Chia could bring his case up to the Advisory Committee, but he has refused. I think he has perhaps in his own mind thought why should he go before the Committee when he has not done any of those things that were alleged, and what he said also was that the Advisory Committee is a committee comprising members appointed by the Government and, as its name implies, it merely has advisory capacity and no more. Of course, the detention of a citizen for such a long period of time will bring a bad name to Singapore. I think it gives a chance for people all over the world to mention it over and over again. And, of course, to detain a person arbitrarily is against the provisions of the universal declaration of human rights.

I think the issue here is whether or not there is a communist danger in Singapore today and also whether or not the Government is right to put its citizens in a state of fear. Conditions are completely different from those of the 1960s. We have heard in this House that in the 1960s there was mass unemployment. It was difficult to find jobs, there were less homes, things were very difficult. But now after 26 years of this Government's rule, Members have again and again said that we are now in a very well-off position, highest standard of living in Asia, second only to Japan; and the policy is to have 100% home ownership. Statistics show that we have got something like 80% of the population properly housed, and about 60% of these 80% are house owners. Everybody has got a job. They go for holidays abroad and things look well. So we have got a complete set of political, social conditions. Under these circumstances, is there still a communist danger? I say no. If you put a communist candidate in our general elections and he says, "My platform is this: when I come in, I will nationalize all companies. I will nationalize your homes." Do you think any sane person will vote for him? I think probably his deposit will be forfeited.

I am not the only person who says that there is no communist danger. I think the Prime Minister himself, when he spoke in America last year, implied that. He told the Joint Session of Congress that under the rule of Deng Xiao-peng, China no longer exports revolution. They have not been broadcasting revolutionary messages. So they are on their way to a free market type of economy, and America can safely look to China as a friend and their business people can go there and do business. So if China is not exporting revolution and is not giving aid to any countries in Southeast Asia, can communist insurgency be successful in Singapore? We spend some- thing like $2 billion a year on defence. We have got perhaps 20,000 soldiers or even more.

An hon. Member: Check your figures.

Mr Chiam See Tong: I do not know what is the standing army we have today. Perhaps the Minister for Defence can clarify that. But, whatever, we pride ourselves in our national defence. So can any insurgency be successful in Singapore today? I doubt it. We have got tanks, we have got an army, well-trained in all kinds of warfare, fighting in the drains, on the streets, in buildings, on the beaches. So how can communist insurgency be a reality in Singapore? I do not think so.

Now, the maintenance of this piece of legislation which allows detention without trial will only put fear in the minds of our citizens. The Government has got a big stick over the heads of everyone of its citizens. Why does it need that stick? Has the Government no faith in its own people? It is high time this piece of legislation be repealed. It is an incongruous piece of legislation in our present day society. We talk of a creative society, we talk of an open society, we talk of reaching the Swiss standard of living, and yet what is the reality? The reality is that anyone could be pulled up and locked up. That is the reality. You may say, "Well, the Government does not do it." But the fact is that the piece of legislation is there. If it wants to, it can use it. It is not an issue whether it wants to use it or not. That is not an issue. The issue is that it is there and therefore it is time the Government repeals that piece of legislation.

If the Government cannot really justify its position to detain Mr Chia Thye Poh, then I say that he should be released. The Minister has powers under the Act to order an immediate and unconditional release. And I say for the good of Singapore, he should do it immediately.

The Chairman: The Minister for Finance proposes to move a business motion in regard to the Supply Bill and the Supplementary Supply Bill. I therefore suspend the proceedings of the Committee.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.