MEMBER FOR ANSON'S ALLEGATIONS ABOUT

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Prof. S. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to make a statement with regard to the matter of the complaint concerning Mr Lim Poh Huat. But before I proceed, let me make it clear that I do not intend to debate the question whether there was a breach of privilege or not, as that has been referred to the Committee of Privileges. However, subsequent to our sitting on 29th July, new information has come to light which must be conveyed to Parliament.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like the Clerk of Parliament to kindly distribute to Members and to the press the signed statement (Cols. 505 - 506) which Mr Percy Seneviratne gave to the Member for Anson and which the Member for Anson himself gave to me, as well a short statement (Cols. 505 - 506) which Mr Seneviratne gave to my Ministry. statement - FURTHER STATEMENT BY PERCY SENEVIRATNE (Cols. 505 - 506)

I would like to refer first, Mr Speaker, Sir, to an article which appeared in the Straits Times yesterday where Mr Seneviratne told the Straits Times that he first learned that Mr Lim Poh Huat had fabricated the story when he watched the telecast of our proceedings on the night of 29th July. Mr Lim Poh Huat then came over to his house and, according to Mr Seneviratne, he advised Mr Lim to give him a statement confessing the lie. The signed statement was handed to Mr Jeyaretnam Wednesday morning. In the short statement given to the Ministry of Home Affairs, paragraph 2, Members will see that, according to Mr Percy Seneviratne, the recorded confession of Mr Lim Poh Huat was delivered by Mr Seneviratne personally to Mr Jeyaretnam at about 9.00 am on 30th July.

May I ask the Member for Anson whether he denies this or confirms this?

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam (Anson): I thought the Minister said that as the matter has been referred to the Committee of Pri- vileges he was not going to start investigation in this very Chamber. But I am not averse to answering. What statement are you referring to - Lim Poh Huat's statement made to Mr Percy Seneviratne or his signed statement to me?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Percy Seneviratne's statement that on the morning of Wednesday, 30th July, he had handed to the Member for Anson at 9.00 am Mr Lim Poh Huat's signed confession.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes, that is true, on the morning of 30th.

Prof. Jayakumar: Thank you.

Mr Jeyaretnam: After, I think, the debate here.

Prof. Jayakumar: After the debate?

Mr Jeyaretnam: No, after it was revealed ---

Prof. Jayakumar: On 29th. After it was revealed on the 29th.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes.

Prof. Jayakumar: After the first day's debate.

Mr Jeyaretnam: After you made the statement.

Prof. Jayakumar: Let me be very clear. He does not deny that Mr Seneviratne personally delivered Mr Lim Poh Huat's confession.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I do not deny, no.

Prof. Jayakumar: On Wednesday, the second day.

Mr Jeyaretnam: The 30th, yes.

Prof. Jayakumar: Right. But all of us will recall that on the 30th, the second day, I did not raise the question any more because it has been referred to the Committee of Privileges but, the Member for Anson, after Question time, sought your permission, Mr Speaker, to make a personal explanation and all that he did was to give us the address of Mr Lim Poh Huat. But by that time he already knew that the whole thing was a fabrication. He already had with him a signed confession by Mr Lim Poh Huat. The question is: why did he suppress those facts when he took the opportunity to speak on Wednesday?

Mr Speaker: Have you anything to say, Mr Jeyaretnam?

An hon. Member: Let's hear him.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Let's hear him, let's hear him. Yes, the whole matter is before the Committee of Privileges. I came here to give you the information and I said, "You can go and interview him now and get everything from him yourself." That is the only reason.

Prof. Jayakumar: The Member for Anson, on his own volition, spoke around 11.30 am and all he did was to give me the address of Mr Lim Poh Huat which was a false address, asking the Police to go and investigate. But he was in possession of very vital information at 9.00 am that morning, that there was a signed confession and the whole thing was a fabrication. If he was an honourable gentleman, why did he not also tell us that important fact, that he was in possession of the information, that it was a complete lie? He could have come clean if he had no part in this fabrication and said, "Look. I know it is a complete lie. I tell you now why Lim Poh Huat did it. Please go and investigate." But he suppressed the truth. Does he not admit that he, in fact, suppressed material facts, suppressed the truth, in the same way on the previous day when, talking about Mr Jeffrey Chan, he also suppressed information? Does he not admit that that is very important information that he ought to have divulged in this House, more important than the address of Mr Lim Poh Huat?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, what does the Minister want to do? He wants to move another motion, does he? Is that what he wants to do? This matter has been referred to the Committee of Privileges. You want to know why I did not bring that confession from Lim Poh Huat. I have told you. I said that the address had been given to me. The Police should go and ask him. I do not know whether even his confession may be true or not true. It is for the Police to go and investigate. You go and investigate. I have given you that.

Prof. Jayakumar: Let us take this in perspective. In March ---

Mr Jeyaretnam: I do not know what he is referring to about. Mr Jeffrey Chan - what is the misleading part of it? That I did not say that there was an appeal? How is that material? Does the Minister deny that the man was transferred about four or five months later?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson says it was not for him to investigate the truth of the confession. This is incredible. Let us review the whole thing in perspective. In March, Mr Seneviratne comes running to the Member for Anson and said, "Look. I have got a big scoop. A person was arrested 15 hours." The Member for Anson does not contact Lim Poh Huat, does not ask for a statement, does not ask for a Police report, comes running to Parliament, makes a fantastic accusation without verifying the facts. Now, when we have the opposite that Mr Lim Poh Huat sends a signed confession, he says, "No, no. I am not going to raise this in Parliament." In other words, he is telling the whole world, "Please. False allegations, lies, come to me. I will raise it in Parliament." Truth, keep it in his pocket, do not reveal it." So that is my first point, Mr Speaker: suppression of truth and facts in this Parliament. On his own, he raised a matter of the address but the most important thing, he suppressed.

The next point I want to make, Mr Speaker, Sir, is that, if Members will look at the document which I have circulated, Members will recall that on the 29th when the Member for Anson told us that he had a signed statement I asked more than once, on at least two occasions, when was that statement signed, when did he get that statement. I had my suspicions. I asked: was it before the Member for Anson raised the complaint in Parliament on 18th March or after? The Member for Anson did not reply. If Members will look at the longer signed statement of Mr Seneviratne which the Member has given me you will notice the curious fact that it is not dated. Most curious.

In the statement given to the Ministry of Home Affairs, he says that this undated statement was given to Mr Jeyaretnam towards the end of March. He forgot to date the letter. I think I want to establish this fact also, which is a fact subsequent to our sitting on 29th. Can I ask the Member for Anson whether he confirms that this undated statement was handed to him towards the end of March?

Mr Jeyaretnam: As I said, this would appear to be an interrogation, but I have no worries. That statement, I think Percy has made a mistake - about the end of March. It was handed to me later.

Prof. Jayakumar: When?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I think sometime in July actually it was handed to me. But Percy had given me this statement before I mentioned it in Parliament. He had told me orally about this man's detention, and it was after the correspondence with the Minister of State that I said, "The Ministry and the Police are saying there was no such thing. Would you let me have your signed statement?" And then he sent it to me.

Prof. Jayakumar: A world of difference between the end of March and July. Well, contradictions will always arise when people are engaged in fabrication.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I certainly object to that because the imputation is that I was engaged in fabrication of this. This matter has been referred to the Committee of Privileges. Will the Minister withdraw that - that I was engaged in fabrication?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, we have just established that the Member suppressed the truth. Let me proceed, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I insist, Mr Speaker, Sir. As I said, you are allowing Government Ministers to get away with murder in this House.

Some hon. Members: No!

Mr Speaker: Am I?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes.

Mr Speaker: I am surprised at your remark, Mr Jeyaretnam. I have been very patient with you.

Mr Jeyaretnam: But they are making statements.

Mr Speaker: I think you should withdraw your remark.

Mr Jeyaretnam: All right, I withdraw it for you, Mr Speaker, Sir, about you allowing it. But I am saying that they are making statements. May I finish on my point of order?

Mr Speaker: What point of order?

Mr Jeyaretnam: And that is, that I was a party to this fabrication, that I got the man to come and make a statement to Percy Seneviratne, that I fabricated all this. Will he withdraw it?

Prof. Jayakumar: I never withdraw anything that I said and I never said what he claims I have said.

Mr Jeyaretnam: He says "parties concerned in the fabrication". Were you referring to me or not? Have the courage. Were you referring to me or not? Will you have the courage?

Prof. Jayakumar: Can I speak without his rude interruptions, Mr Speaker, Sir?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Does he have the courage or not?

Mr Speaker: It is up to the Minister.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Does he have the courage? Were you saying that I fabricated all this?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, the truth will come out in the Committee of Privileges.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Will you please answer my question? Will you please answer my question? Are you saying ---

Prof. Jayakumar: Will the Member for Anson please keep his cool and sit down?

Mr Jeyaretnam: No. I am asking you. Look at me!

Prof. Jayakumar: I don't want to look at him. Why should I look at him?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Because you are frightened. I say, "Look at me and answer the question."

Prof. Jayakumar: If he was a person of truth, he need not fear.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Will you look at me and answer the question?

Prof. Jayakumar: He has shown that he has suppressed the truth in this House. And any Member who has suppressed the truth really has done the most dishonourable conduct.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, on a point of order. I am going to insist on your ruling. Let it be on record.

If you are making a motion, a complaint, that I suppressed the truth on the 30th July in not presenting that signed statement to this House, well, do so. Do so, and refer it to the Committee of Privileges and I will answer it. But now you are saying (or I thought you were saying) ---

An hon. Member: "Thought"?

Another hon. Member: Out of order.

Mr Jeyaretnam: But if you did not say it, have the courage, my man. Have the courage to say whether you said it or you did not say it. I am asking you for the last time: are you saying that I was a party to all this fabrication?

Mr Speaker: He did not say it.

Prof. Jayakumar: These are the desperate efforts of a man who is sinking deeper and deeper into the quicksands of falsehood, lies and untruth.

Mr Jeyaretnam rose -

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to proceed. Can I ask the Member to sit down?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I want an answer to my question.

Mr Speaker: What was your question, Mr Jeyaretnam?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I want an answer to this question: is the Minister saying in this House that I fabricated the whole thing, that is, I got Lim Poh Huat to make a false statement to Percy Seneviratne, then I got Percy to come and see me knowing that it is a false statement and then I raised it in this House? Is he saying that or not?

Mr Speaker: I did not hear it.

Mr Jeyaretnam: You did not hear it?

Mr Speaker: That is what you say.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Is he saying that?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, that interesting question will be answered in the Committee of Privileges. What I said ---

Mr Jeyaretnam rose -

Prof. Jayakumar: Can you ask him to sit down, Mr Speaker, Sir?

Mr Speaker: Will you let the Minister finish first?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I want an answer to my question.

Prof. Jayakumar: Please sit down.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Are you saying it or not saying it?

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, can you ask him to sit down?

Mr Speaker: As I said, Mr Jeyaretnam, I did not hear it.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I thought he said I was a party to the fabrication.

Mr Speaker: No. He was not referring to you.

Prof. Jayakumar: Sit down, please!

Mr Jeyaretnam: Nobody said it, is it?

Prof. Jayakumar: Can you ask him to sit down, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Sit down, Mr Jeyaretnam. He did not say it.

Mr Jeyaretnam: He can't even look at me straight in the face.

Prof. Jayakumar: I do not relish looking at people who tell untruths.

Mr Speaker: Order, order. Sit down, Mr Jeyaretnam!

Mr Jeyaretnam: He can't look at me straight in the face.

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, these are desperate efforts of a man who is sinking into quicksands of falsehood and untruth. [Interruptions]

Mr Jeyaretnam: Let the public decide. See you at the end of 1988, whether you get elected or not.

Mr Speaker: Let us have some order in the House.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I mean, all these silly statements about me.

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, can I proceed without interruption?

Mr Speaker: Yes, carry on.

Prof. Jayakumar: What I said was that there was a contradiction between the date mentioned by Mr Percy Seneviratne and the date mentioned by the Member for Anson in this House. And I then said that such contradictions will arise when persons are involved in fabrication. That is what I said. The Member for Anson jumps up to make further statements. It may be a psychological quirk of mind.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Are you saying it or not?

Prof. Jayakumar: It is up to him to admit.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Up to you.

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, I now want to make my second point. He has made it clear that the undated signed statement of Mr Percy Seneviratne was given, according to him, in July. According to Mr Seneviratne, end of March. Whichever date we take it, it is after ---

Mr Jeyaretnam: Towards the end.

Prof. Jayakumar: Towards the end. Whichever date we take it, it is clear that it was after the sitting of 18th March when the Member for Anson ---

Mr Jeyaretnam: After the whole Budget sitting.

Prof. Jayakumar: Yes. My question then is: why did the Member mislead us? Because on the 29th July, when I raised this matter, the Member for Anson told us that he had raised this matter in this House. Why? And he said:

'I have a signed statement given to me by a person whose integrity I respect, who says in his signed statement that he had an appointment with this man and this man never turned up that Sunday morning and, in front of him and two others, told this man that he had been arrested by Joo Chiat Police Station after midnight. So I have a signed statement from a man, as I said, whose integrity I respect.'

He told us that the basis for his having made that statement when he made the complaint was because he had a signed statement, and now it is clear that the signed statement was well after the Parliamentary sitting. So he has misled. So in sum, Mr Speaker, he has suppressed the truth on Wednesday, he has misled us on 29th July.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Make your complaint.

Prof. Jayakumar: Yes.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Refer it to the Committee of Privileges.

Mr Speaker: All right, Mr Jeyaretnam. Sit down and let the Minister finish.

Prof. Jayakumar: I have not finished, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Jeyaretnam: May I answer this slanderous allegation again.

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, the investigation will continue. There are many contridictions in the stories given by the parties concerned. We will get to the bottom of it. When the Committee of Privileges meets, we will find out who has fabricated in this conspiracy to hoodwink Parliament.

Mr Jeyaretnam: These snide remarks of the Minister that I did not inform the House, that I had a signed statement or that I told the House that I had a signed statement before I raised it, arises simply out of his twisted interpretation of what I told Parliament. I said I had raised this on information given to me by this man and I said I had a signed statement from him. And it did not mean that I was saying I had a signed statement - don't smile with your smirk - it did not mean that I had a signed statement before I said it. The information came from him before I raised it. Does he deny that? The information came from him before I raised it and the signed statement was after that, confirming everything that he had told me.

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, the Member never said on 29th July that he did not have a signed statement at the time he made the complaint. He told us, and I am prepared to have television and the video set brought in again to play the quotation, he told us the basis on which he made the statement was that he had a signed statement.

Mr Jeyaretnam: No, no, no. I have information.

Prof. Jayakumar: Shall we bring in the tape?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I said I had a signed statement.

Prof. Jayakumar: That's right.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I had a signed statement but ---

Prof. Jayakumar: Why did he not tell us that that signed statement (a) was undated, (b) that he had it, as he now says, in July, a few days before Parliamentary sitting presumably, conveniently?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Not a few days.

Prof. Jayakumar: Mr Speaker, Sir, the facts condemn the Member for Anson.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Well, again, may I object to this? The matter has been referred to the Committee of Privileges. Is the Minister to go on making these monstrous statements in this House committing, as it were, in the references of them, abuses of privilege? Now he is trying to look at me. Now you have the courage, do you, in the seat of your chair? Or you are still not able to look at me? Sly man.

Prof. Jayakumar: We have now reached such pitiful standards of debate on the part of the Member for Anson.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Whose pitiful standards are you talking about?

Prof. Jayakumar: He not only suppresses the truth but he is afraid of the facts.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think we must put an end to this.

Prof. Jayakumar: Exactly.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Either he stops making these allegations here or --- [Interruptions].

Mr Speaker: Mr Jeyaretnam, carry on, please.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Either he withdraws and stops making these allegations here, or I want your ruling on this as to whether he is permitted or not, in view of the fact, I have said this before several times, that the matter is now before the Committee of Privileges. So how can he go on saying the man stands condemned, the man stands this, he is a fabricator, he is everything, even before the Committee of Privileges has inquired into it and makes its report. Can we not have a ruling from you, Sir, on this?

Mr Speaker: Let us bring this matter to an end and let the Committee decide what is to be done.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Thank you. Let the Committee decide.

11.29 am