ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1997 TO 31ST MARCH, 1998 (Paper Cmd. 2 of 1997)

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head I (cont.) -

Resumption of Debate on Question [28th July, 1997],

That the sum to be allocated for Head I of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code IA 1500. - [Mr Chay Wai Chuen].

Question again proposed.

Mr Mah Bow Tan: Sir, before we adjourned yesterday, Mr Chay Wai Chuen asked whether my Ministry has any plans to introduce other port operators when PSA is corporatised.

Sir, the bulk of PSA's container business is in transshipment cargo. In this area of business, PSA is not a monopoly. It has to face very keen competition from other ports in the region. This external competitive pressure has kept PSA on its toes up to now and it will continue to do so after corporatisation. The singular objective of PSA must be to meet the challenge of external competition. The Government has no plans at the moment to license other port operators to compete internally with PSA. But the Government will reserve the right to introduce more port operators. There will be no exclusivity clause when PSA is corporatised. Should the situation change and internal competition become necessary, the Government will license other operators to compete with PSA.

I turn now to the queries from Mr Goh Chee Wee concerning ALS and COEs for taxis. Mr Goh requested yesterday that we allow taxi drivers with the ALS/RPS licence to charge their passengers a fixed fee for entry into the CBD or for travelling through an RPS gantry. Currently, taxi drivers are not required to purchase this licence. If somebody wants to take a taxi to enter the restricted zone, he has to pay $2 or $3, whichever the case is, for the daily licence. However, if the taxis already possess the licence, they are not allowed to charge passengers extra. This is due to the current manual road pricing or ALS system which has its limitations. One such limitation is that it is not able to charge per entry or per pass which is the fairest way of charging for usage. Ideally, taxis entering the restricted zone should pay per entry if they are doing so on their own accord or if they are carrying a passenger, then the passenger should bear that charge. This will be possible with the ERP. In the transition from now till then, I think there is a case to be made for allowing taxi drivers to recover the cost of the ALS or the RPS licence from their passengers. So I would suggest to Mr Goh that he put up a proposal to the PTC for its consideration, based on the principle of cost recovery.

Mr Goh also asked whether we can fix the COE price for taxis. I am not in favour of this proposal. The Vehicle Quota System (VQS) has allowed our vehicle population to grow at an average of 3% per annum since 1990, while at the same time keeping congestion under control. For the VQS to work, we have to apply it without exception to all vehicles, including the taxis. Like other vehicle owners, transport operators and companies, taxi operators must bid for addition of taxis to their fleet. Nevertheless, in recognition of their role as a form of public transport, we have given taxi operators the concession of not having to bid for COEs for the taxis that they are replacing. Instead of the COE, we have allowed them to pay the prevailing quota premium (PQP) instead. So this gives them the certainty of securing COEs when they want to replace their taxis. In addition to this, they only need to pay the PQP for Category 2 vehicles, although most taxis belong to Category 3.

I turn now to the question on motorcycle COEs, posed by Dr Toh See Kiat. Dr Toh was concerned that motorcycle COE prices have risen from $1 in 1994 to about $3,000 today, and he asked whether it is affordable.

Sir, like all other categories of vehicles, motorcycle COEs are in limited supply. We limit the increase of our total vehicle population to 3% a year, and then we apportion this increase across all the different categories in as fair a manner as possible. Then, finally, we leave it to the market to decide how much each person is prepared to pay for that COE in different categories.

So if you ask: are motorcycle COEs affordable? I guess the answer depends on who you ask. But the fact is every month, all motorcycle COEs are taken up and there are many others who are in the queue. Are they expensive? Again, it depends on who you ask. But let me just point out that at today's prices, the motorcycle COE is less than 10% of the COE price of the smallest car category, the Category 1 car.

Yesterday I pointed out that traffic engineers advise us that a moving motorcycle on the road will occupy something like 70% road space of a moving car. On that basis, in terms of relativity, you could argue that motorcycle COEs are not expensive relative to other types of vehicles which use our roads.

Finally, of course, I must point out that the revenue from COEs is used for the public good, to build infrastructure, to build new MRT lines, LRT lines, for the benefit of all Singaporeans, including the lower income group. Nevertheless, I take note of Dr Toh's concern for the small motorcycle owners and we will take this into account when we review the motorcycle tax structure.

Dr Toh also suggested that we try out the pay-as-you-bid system for COEs. He mentioned that car dealers are pushing up COE prices in order to squeeze out parallel importers. First of all, I think we need to remind ourselves that whichever system is used for tendering, whether it is the lowest strike price method that we are using today or whether it is the pay-as-you-bid system that has been suggested, COE prices are ultimately determined by supply and demand. If the demand for cars, or motorcycles for that matter, outstrips the supply, then the prices will go up, and vice versa. In the short history of the COE, we have seen several cycles of boom and bust, where prices had gone up and then come down fairly sharply.

Our analysis of the COE bidding shows that the majority of the successful bids cluster around or close to the lowest successful bid. If you are interested in some numbers, around 70%, 80%, sometimes 90%, or even more of the bids are within plus or minus 20% of that lowest successful bid. So they all cluster around that bid. Therefore the pay-as-you-bid method may not necessarily lead to lower COE prices which, I believe, is the reason why many people are clamouring for this method.

I have announced yesterday that LTA will be releasing information on the quotas, instead of a year-to-year basis, two years at one go. And this is to allow vehicle owners to better plan their purchases. 12.45 pm

So, before we consider switching to other methods, for example, the pay-as-you-bid method, I think we need to rethink carefully how the COE system works. The price of COEs is determined by supply and demand. We had many experiments. We had many changes to the quota system. We had curbed transferability of the COEs. We had changed the rules to stop double transfers. What did all these results show? There has been no permanent impact on prices. The quick fixes have only had a transient effect and demand will remain high so long as the economy is strong, so long as people have confidence in the future. And when that is the case, in a situation where we necessarily have to restrict the supply of COEs, prices will continue to remain high.

But having said that, the way to moderate COE prices is really to maintain a steady supply of COEs, as high a supply as our roads can take. That is the long-term sustainable way to moderate COE prices. And how do we intend to do this? As the White Paper on land transport has set out, if ERP is successful in controlling traffic congestion and if we can get more people to make use of public transport, the less congested our roads will be and the more we can relax on the ownership, the more COEs we can release. By increasing the supply, we will be able to moderate COE prices. Again, let us concentrate on that because that is the long-term sustainable solution to moderate COE prices.

Sir, may I now ask my Minister of State to reply to the rest of the questions in this cut?

The Minister of State for Communications (Dr John Chen Seow Phun): Sir, Dr Toh See Kiat yesterday asked if the Government's efforts at promoting information technology and telecommunications will be more focused by combining the agencies involved into a single entity. We do not see the need at present to combine the agencies into a single body as these bodies are coordinating the strategies well.

The successful launch of Singapore One by Prime Minister Goh at Asia Telecom 97 in April this year is an example of inter-agency cooperation and coordination. Five agencies have pooled together their resources, their varied contacts and expertise to bring together the world's foremost players to participate in the Singapore One project. Info-communication is an example of the increasingly multi-disciplinary nature of modern technologies. Our competitiveness will be best served by our ability to coordinate and offer multiple one-stop services.

Dr Toh mentioned the recent telecommunications service disruptions and asked if they could be due to a lack of investment in infrastructure. Let me assure this House that Singapore does not suffer from a lack of investment in telecommunications infrastructure. Singapore has consistently ranked highly in country comparisons of telecommunications infrastructure.

In the last five years, SingTel invested $3 billion in Singapore's telecommunications infrastructure and it will continue to invest heavily in the years ahead. The Ministry of Communications and TAS take a serious view of service disruptions as they affect the economic and social activities of the nation. Hence, we have in place a stringent penalty framework against operators found responsible for service disruptions. The framework encourages the operators to constantly provide reliable services and to be more proactive in improving the resiliency of their networks. However, modern telecommunications systems are very complex. There may be situations where the service disruptions occur but are not due to the negligence of the operators.

On the network outages brought up by Dr Toh, TAS has investigated every one of them very thoroughly. In the incident involving SingTel's CDMA trials, TAS' investigations revealed that the causes of the disruptions were due to negligence on the part of SingTel and its sub-contractor. SingTel Mobile was fined for its negligence. In the other cases, investigations revealed no negligence on the part of the operators. Apart from being fined, both SingTel Mobile and its sub-contractor had apologised publicly. TAS is currently working with the operators to institute preventive measures to reduce the potential of such problems and further improve the resiliency of the system.

Dr Toh also asked whether Singaporeans will have Internet II. The Government adopts a technology neutral stand in licensing service providers. The service providers are best able to determine for themselves the type of technology or means that best meet customers' needs and give them an edge over the other competitors. This means that Internet access service providers have to consider and invest in the latest relevant technologies, including satellite or other delivery means, to provide the most innovative and best value-added services. The Government will help facilitate the introduction of such new technologies with its R&D and investment grants. The promotion of Singapore One by the Government to jump-start the development of a nation-wide multimedia broadband network is an excellent example. Singapore One will facilitate the introduction of Internet II.

Sir, Dr Ho Tat Kin has asked about the security of our cellular phone system. TAS and the phone operators are keenly aware of this threat. They have taken appropriate measures to combat such illegal activities. For obvious reasons, it is not possible to go into details about what these measures are.

Dr Toh See Kiat (Aljunied): Sir, may I clarify some questions with the Minister? The Minister has said that the motorcycle COEs are one-tenth of the COEs for cars. I wonder if the Minister would agree that per cc, actually motorcycle COEs are more expensive than car COEs, and there is this concern. I wonder if the Minister could assure the House that when we have COE bids, there is no sham demand created by parties that are interested in creating an impression of big demand. From the written answer, I saw, for example, there have been bids as low as $1 and $2 for cars. This points to frivolous bids to create a frenzy of demand. Is this being looked into?

And for the Minister of State, my question is that Internet II requires a big pipeline and Singapore One may just be a trickle to fill up that pipeline. Are there perhaps plans to work with our ASEAN compatriots to, for example, fill up this pipeline so that together ASEAN can become a giga hub for Internet?

Mr Mah Bow Tan: Sir, Dr Toh made the point that on a per cc basis, the COE prices for motorcycles will be lower than for cars. Sir, as I explained at length yesterday, the intention of the road tax structure in the future is to base it on the apportionment of the cost that will be incurred by that particular vehicle, say, a car or a motorcycle which uses the road space. The intention is to move away from a basis like engine capacity to something more relevant to congestion, for example, the size of the vehicle. In this case, PCU will be used as a proxy for the size of a vehicle and cost of congestion. So with that intention in mind, I think the comparison of the taxes of motorcycles and cars on per cc basis would not be very relevant.

As far as sham bids are concerned, I am not exactly sure what he means by "sham bids". But if I take the point that he has raised that there are bids of $1 for each of the vehicle categories, I have supplied the information to Dr Toh. If he looks at the chart, he will see that for every category and every month, there are always one or two bids of $1 or $2. So I will not regard this as sham bids in the sense that he has mentioned of creating unnecessary or false demand. These are just people who are trying their luck hoping that, by some extraordinary fluke that month, nobody will be bidding and he will be able to get a COE for $1.

Dr John Chen Seow Phun: Sir, Dr Toh See Kiat is right. There is tremendous synergy if we can inter-connect several networks together. In this regard, the Government is actively promoting and encouraging this regional connectivity among the ASEAN countries and even further afield. But of course whether we can connect with the other countries' network or national information infrastructure (NII) depends on whether they are ready. We know that countries throughout the region are developing their own NII and therefore efforts are ongoing to try to bring the network together. For his information, Singapore One is currently in discussion with Thailand on an Internet broadband network linkup following PM's recent visit to Thailand.

Mr Chay Wai Chuen (Tanjong Pagar): I beg to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (3), Mr Chay.

Mr Chay Wai Chuen: Sir, I am not moving the amendment.

The Chairman: Amendment (4), Mr Chay.

Mr Chay Wai Chuen: Sir, in view of the answers given by the Minister yesterday on the Electronic Road Pricing, I am not speaking.

The Chairman: Mr Chew Heng Ching is not here. Mr Goh.

Mr Goh Chee Wee (Boon Lay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I of the Development Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code IA 5100.

Sir, I would like to raise the question of impact of ERP on taxis. Again, I would like to declare my interest as a Director of Comfort group.

Sir, when the ERP is implemented, it is only logical that the taxi commuters be required to pay in full the ERP charges on top of the taxi fares. A number of issues need to be resolved. For instance, how would a taxi driver charge the commuter for the ERP charges that he has incurred while on the way to pick up the passenger in response to a telephone booking? I would request that the LTA seek the views of the taxi operators and attempt to address all the anticipated problems before the implementation of the ERP. I would also request that the ERP for taxis be introduced in phases so as to lighten the burden of the drivers and the commuters as they adjust to the new system. To begin with, concessionary ERP charges could be imposed on taxis instead of the full rate applicable to normal vehicles. I hope the Minister would consider these suggestions.

Dr Michael Lim Chun Leng (Cheng San): Sir, I am not speaking.

Mr Mah Bow Tan: Sir, since I have some time left in this cut, may I, before I reply to Mr Goh Chee Wee on the question of ERP, take this opportunity to enlighten the House about some data that have been gathered on the Road Pricing Scheme. I am doing this because I realise that there have been some comments from the motoring public about the introduction of the Road Pricing Scheme on the various highways and expressways recently, particularly on the CTE. So I beg your indulgence on that. 1.00 pm

Sir, after we introduced the RPS on our three expressways - the CTE, PIE and ECP - the traffic speeds increased dramatically, especially on the East Coast Parkway and the Pan Island Expressway. For the CTE, we did not get it quite right the first time. So we had to make subsequent modifications. But after the modifications, the traffic speeds have picked up. Conditions have improved.

I realise that many people have commented that road pricing merely shifts the congestion away from the expressways to somewhere else. Or it shifts the congestion from RPS hours to either before or after. And in both cases, they wonder what is the point of it all. I have asked the LTA to conduct traffic surveys before and after the RPS was implemented, and let me just share with Members some of the results of the survey.

For the three expressways, about 7,000 or 16% of the motorists using the expressways stopped using these expressways during RPS hours after introduction. 7,000 represent about 16%. About 3,000 or almost half of them switched to alternative roads, major bypass roads, as a result of which, of course, the major bypass roads have become a bit more congested. The rest of them either changed their journey times before or after the RPS hours, or they switched to minor roads, or they went on to public transport, MRT and buses particularly. For example, the express buses that were introduced on the CTE showed an increase of about 40% in ridership just after they were introduced and today. So that is encouraging in that people are shifting. The increase in MRT ridership has not been as dramatic but it has also been steady.

Other options that they have taken would be car pooling and perhaps some people would have abandoned their trips altogether. So it is encouraging to see these results, because this is exactly what the road pricing scheme has sought to achieve, not to move everybody away, but to move those people who would find it marginally not worth their while to pay the $2 to take the CTE, the ECP or whatever. It has, therefore, changed the travelling pattern of motorists,. It has encouraged them to take alternative forms of transport or, as I said, perhaps even not making that particular trip at that particular time.

Another criticism that I have heard quite frequently is that this is another scheme for Government to generate revenue. Let me give the House some facts. When we extended the RPS to the CTE and the PIE in May this year, we gave away $36 million in road tax rebates. We expect to collect between $6 and $8 million in RPS fees. These are all annual figures. In other words, there is a revenue loss of about $28-$30 million a year.

Let me say that if indeed this is a scheme to generate revenue, this is a very funny way of collecting revenue. The Minister for Finance is not here. I do not think he will be very pleased with me if I were to tell him that this is a scheme to collect revenue and I implement it in this way. Essentially, what we are saying, and what we are doing, is that we are giving money back to the motorists. And we are telling the motorists, "Please spend it in a way that you think is best for your own situation." And indeed urging them not to spend it on the ERP if they can help it. So let me repeat once again that this scheme is a scheme to manage congestion, and it is not to generate revenue.

I now turn to Mr Goh Chee Wee's point about ERP for taxis. Yes, the ERP will affect all vehicles, including taxis when it is implemented. We will take into account the special circumstances of the taxis, in the sense that with radio charge, with radio phone bookings and so on, they will have to operate in a certain way. But I am reassured by the fact that the taxi companies have already taken some steps in this direction by changing their mode of operation, by introducing satellite booking systems and so on in order to help their taxi drivers to cope with the changes as and when it happens. But let me assure Members of this House that we will take the views of the various users into account. For example, in the case of taxis, we will phase in the ERP charges for taxis. Whether there will be concessionary charges or not, I think we will have to look at it in the overall context of the road tax revision for taxis.

The same thing will apply for scheduled buses and also for commercial vehicles, because they do play an important role in our economy. What we will do is that we will phase in the ERP rates for these vehicles as well. This would help them to adjust to ERP.

Sir, I expect that there will be some initial uncertainty and unhappiness when ERP is implemented. I can quite understand this because, after all, we are talking about changing people's behaviour, and we all do not like change. We do not like to change because it is difficult and disruptive. But I submit that we have to make these moves, because if we see problems ahead and we see the possibility of a crisis, we have no choice but to change.

It is the same as somebody who suffers a heart attack. If he does not change his lifestyle, he does not change his habits, then I think the chances of him enjoying a quality lifestyle will be seriously jeopardised.

The question is, of course, whether we are facing a crisis now. We see many examples of cities in other countries which they do nothing or they do something but it is too late, and they are faced with gridlock. Major roads are seized up. People and goods do not move or move very slowly, if they do. So I submit, let us do something now. Let us not wait for a crisis because experience tells us that by then, it may be too late or the solution may be even more painful.

I close this answer by reminding Members that our transport policy is not only about COEs, ERP and so on, painful though these may be. They are part and parcel of a total integrated package, a package which includes building of new roads, new expressways and the building of new MRT and LRT lines. It includes continual improvements in bus services, taxi services and so on. All these measures come together. They come in a package. They are inter-related. One does not work without the other. For example, if you are talking about improving public bus services, then we have to manage congestion on the roads, which means road pricing and bus lanes, although motorists will find this inconvenient. And we cannot manage the demand for cars if we do not improve public transport. So Members will realise that we have to do both together.

I ask Members of this House and the motorists to take a long-term view and to support all these measures in order that we can build a long-term sustainable quality transport system for ourselves.

Dr Toh See Kiat: Sir, the Minister has been very persuasive in his answer. I think the man-in-the-street does have this dilemma that the price of the RPS forces or at least gives him the message that he must get off the CTE, PIE and so on, and move on to the other streets or use public transport. But he says, "You ask me to take public transport and you increase public transport prices. So what message are you really giving me?" Could the Minister respond to that, please?

Mr Mah Bow Tan: Sir, I think this is a very common objection, in the sense that public bus and MRT fares had to be increased at this particular point in time. But if you look at it in total perspective, as I tried to explain in my answer just now, Members will find that the fares for public transport, be it buses or MRT, have been kept low and affordable all these years.

There will be increases in fares. Bus services depend heavily on labour. 50% of their cost is in labour. Every year, bus drivers and mechanics have their wages increased. It is part of the collective agreement. Unions do a good job. Wages of public transport employees go up. Over the last six years, on average, public transport employees' wages have gone up between 8-10%. Bus fares have not gone up between 8-10%. On the contrary, over the last six years, they have gone up, on the average, something like 1.3-1.5%. So we cannot have a situation where bus fares and MRT fares will never go up in order to encourage more usage. But it is important that we keep the price of public transport relative to the price of private transport, relative to the price of owning and using a car, cheap and affordable. That is the relativity we are talking about. Iin this particular episode, it is going to cost a person $5, if you are talking about CTE and CBD, to drive from his home through the CTE to his office in the business district. As an alternative, if he can be driven to an MRT station, he can make that same trip for $1.20-$1.50. If he takes a bus, it is slightly less than that. That is the relativity we are talking about.

In terms of time penalty, it may not be much more, because there are certain bus services and MRT routes which will take him straight to the CBD. It is a question of whether people are mentally prepared to change, and then physically make the effort.

To create an objection in one's mind that bus fares are going up without actually examining the extent of the increase, without actually looking at the details, I think is to do an injustice to the whole system. In fact, if he were able to take advantage of the many schemes available, for example, if he were to buy a farecard, he will find that there is no increase at all. 70% of MRT passengers in the last fare revision did not have to pay a single cent extra.

Sir, I think if Members look at everything in that context, they will find that the Government will continue to encourage people to use public transport on the basis that it is a viable alternative, on the basis that the fares are affordable, on the basis that the other choices that motorists will have to make will become relatively more and more expensive.

Dr Toh See Kiat: Sir, I accept that prices would increase over time and labour cost will have to go up. I also accept that the bus services have to be viable. This is why I asked earlier on whether the Government could consider giving subsidies, eg, for replacement of buses. Because, obviously, if costs have gone up for bus operators, something can be done to help them. Then they would not have to impose fee increases on the commuters. Perhaps other sources of revenue, eg, at the interchanges even though they have to maintain the interchanges, from the advertisements that are put up there. Could the Ministry perhaps give them some other sources of revenue that will help them not to resort to increasing bus fares at every wave of the wand?

1.15 pm

Mr Mah Bow Tan: I think it is not correct, first of all, to say that the Public Transport Council allows the bus operators to increase fares at the wave of the wand. I know for a fact that they take these applications very seriously and my Ministry certainly takes these very seriously because this is something that affects a lot of people. It affects, particularly, the lower income, who have to depend on public transport for moving around. Most of them do not own a car. So we take these very seriously. This is precisely the reason why, if you look at the track record, you will see that the bus fares have not increased in tandem with increases in other costs, such as labour cost and cost of buses and spare parts.

How has this been done? Obviously, the first measure is to raise productivity. Over the last five to 10 years, public bus operators have been able, fortunately, to increase their productivity. They have gone into one-man operation, they have gone into bigger buses and they have gone into more efficient tracking of buses, scheduling of buses and so on. In this area, Government can play a very big role. In fact, better than subsidising them, I submit that it is more important for us to make sure that the operating conditions for buses are favourable. We do make it a point to make the operating conditions for buses as smooth as possible, even to the extent of incurring the wrath of motorists.

For example, bus lanes. I get a lot of complaints from motorists about why they are not allowed to use the bus lanes. Recently, LTA started a trial and put cameras on buses so that it deters people from using the bus lanes. There was a hue and cry. They say it is unfair, invasion of privacy and so on. But the primary objective is really so that people do not use the bus lanes when the buses are there, so that they do not block the progress of the buses. There are many, many such policies, strategies and schemes that the Government has embarked upon, especially the overall management of vehicle ownership, a major transport policy. A major beneficiary of this policy would be the bus operators because when your travelling speeds are high, when you are able to make better use of your buses, that translates into millions of dollars because you are able to make use of your equipment much better. So these are the ways, as I have explained in my reply earlier, that Government can actively help the public bus operators. What is the end result of all this? Eventually, all these mean that our bus fares are kept low and kept affordable. I say this not just as a bare statement. I say this because, first of all, look back over the last 10 to 15 years, up to today, how have bus fares moved? Compare our fares with other countries. Compare bus fares with service levels. Compare route coverage. Compare capacity of the buses. Compare the usage of the buses. The quality of the buses. I think if you look at all these in context, I am sure the Member would not be so quick to say that bus fares are increased at every wave of the wand.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: I thank the Minister for his answer and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (5). Dr Wan is not here.

The sum of $345,031,980 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $1,481,193,100 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head M -

The Chairman: Head M - Ministry of the Environment. Amendment No. 1. Mr Heng Chiang Meng. You can take your three subjects together.

Mr Heng Chiang Meng (Cheng San): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head M of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Last year, the Member for Ayer Rajah brought to the attention of this House a comprehensive presentation on establishing Singapore as a regional centre for environmental technology, business and training. The Ministry of the Environment apparently had not reacted positively to the proposals in his presentation.

Sir, I would like to bring up this issue again. I must say that I am much perplexed by the reaction of the Ministry. I would have thought that the Ministry would grab the idea with both hands and convince the Ministries of Finance and Trade and Industry to immediately exploit this new economic niche.

The latest estimates by the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank project an annual expenditure of some US$20 billion to US$30 billion in South-East Asia alone in this business. Much of this expenditure will not be official aid but Foreign Direct Investments (FDIs) as well as domestic public and private sector investments. Sir, in other words, many of the projects are not tied up to non-commercial considerations but are up for grabs to the best companies in the world.

Sir, we can have these companies in Singapore. We already have the reputation as Asia's greenest country that is environmentally green. We have much of the infrastructure to attract them to be based in Singapore. Unfortunately, what we have now is not enough. We do not have enough depth. Our spread is not wide enough to have all the components necessary for many projects available in the region. In short, we are still not well coordinated enough to take advantage of the many projects offered in the region.

Sir, we need to attract the best in the world to use Singapore as the centre for this business in the region. The opportunities are tremendous, including the value added for our economy and our people. The jobs created will mainly be of the technical, professional and managerial types. This niche will be another high value-added and clean industry, similar to that of Singapore's financial centre.

In fact, Sir, in considering the promotion of this niche, we should look to the financial centre for inspiration. Back in 1968, when the first tax incentive was given for the Asian Dollar Market, I doubt anybody then would dare to envisage today's size, depth and complexity of the financial services offered by our financial centre. But then, Sir, we had faith; and the grit to institute concession after concession to promote the growth of our financial centre.

I see a similar analogy in the environmental business today. We can be the premier regional centre in this business. We must have faith and must be prepared to fight to get the business to be based in Singapore. As a start, Sir, I would like to propose a package of financial incentives similar to that for the financial centre, the establishment of an Environmental Park similar to that established for the Science Park and that the Ministries of the Environment and the Trade and Industry, including the Economic Development Board, going all out to woo the best companies in the world to Singapore. It is only a befitting follow-up to the Prime Minster's initiative in New York last month when he attended the 19th Special Session of the UN General Assembly and announced the Singapore Technical Assistance Programme for Sustainable Development for developing countries.

Sir, can I move to my second topic?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Heng Chiang Meng: Sir, on education on environmental awareness and protection, it is a truism that protecting the environment is not just the work of the authorities but also the duty and responsibility of the people. So it is, indeed, sad that after so many years of educating our public on environmental protection, we do not seem to have improved very much. Our anti-littering campaign is a good example. Sir, we have had education, fines and even CWOs, yet today, the extent of littering is still a shame to Singapore.

I do not subscribe to the effectiveness of punishment as a means to protect the environment, although punishment to achieve deterrence does have its place. Sir, at best, punishments are only a temporary deterrent to the polluter's lifelong habits. To them the only crime is that of getting caught, not the pollution to the environment.

Protecting the environment, unfortunately, requires discipline, if only to walk a short distance to throw a piece of paper into a trash bin instead of littering. This type of discipline can only come from the habit of instinct, not from the fear of punishment. Such instinctive behaviour can only come from values gathered at a very young age, the younger the better.

I would therefore like to see the Ministry concentrate more on educating the young in environmental protection. As a start, environmental protection should be made part of the National Education Programme. We should also have programmes for mothers on how to inculcate their children with the right values to be defenders of the environment. Children pick up most of their lifelong values together with mother's milk. So if we can educate the mothers, we will educate a whole generation.

The Ministry could also help to organise environmental clubs in every school. The schools can organise excursions and tours to places where the children could see for themselves environmental protection at work, places such as sewerage treatment works, water treatment plants, etc. There should also be movies and documentaries on matters relating to environmental protection for the children to watch. The Singapore Environmental Council is already doing some of these programmes, but is hampered by lack of funds. I am sure much more could be done.

We should also encourage adult Singaporeans to be more environmentally friendly through fiscal incentives and/or tax reliefs. Why can we not have a comprehensive system of financial incentives to encourage individuals to be more environmentally friendly? For example, as a start, we could encourage greater use of solar heating systems by granting financial concessions for the installation of such systems. Also, why can we not give some financial aid to owners who install water collection systems for non-potable use? We could also encourage greater usage of electrically driven cars through financial incentives. Why not bring back the tax rebates for the maintenance of gardens? Sir, we used to have that, but it was scrapped some time ago. I recommend that we bring this back because every tree and every plant would help to improve our environment. These are some of the examples by which the Government could encourage greater use of environmentally friendly practices. The cost to the Government would not be very much. However, the impact would be tremendous, especially by putting Singapore at the top of the world's green league.

Sir, I believe that such reputation will become more and more important in the future. It may even make the difference between a desirable foreign investment coming to Singapore and going elsewhere, especially when countries become more and more politically correct in this area.

Sir, on my third amendment, today, one of the key issues in economic development is sustainable development. As I have said earlier, the Prime Minister was at the UN last month representing Singapore as one of four countries to start a new initiative in sustainable development.

Sir, sustainable development is more than just a passing fad. I believe that more and more countries would move towards adopting policies supporting sustainable development. It is, however, not something which can be achieved in one giant step, but instead is an uneventful process that needs to be re-evaluated and reinforced as it proceeds. That is why I believe that we, especially our companies, have to start going green now.

A great majority of our companies, especially the local SMEs are not green enough. Sure, they all comply with the minimum legal requirements on environmental protection and environmental health. But do they have environmentally friendly processes and production methods? Do they have clean production techniques? Are they using as much renewable resources as possible?

Sir, what I really would like to see is our companies adopting standards higher than the minimum legal requirements. One way is the adoption of the new ISO 14000 standard. It is an internationally recognised standard.

There is also an important facet to this suggestion. I see the day when most companies in the developed economies will possess environmentally sound technology and achieving ISO 14000 standards. When that day comes, I am certain that such standards would be used as trade requirements under the objective of supporting sustainable development. The developed countries would use any excuse to increase non-tariff barriers.

Linking it to environmental protection issues would be a good way. I think it is better for us to be prepared for that day. To assist the companies, especially our local SMEs, to achieve ISO 14000, I would like to propose that financial incentives be provided. It would help to defray the initial costs of achieving such standards as well as encouraging the acceleration of its adoption. 1.30 pm

The Minister for the Environment was formerly the Minister for Trade and Industry. I am sure he will agree that the potential threat to our exports is very real. We have already seen how it happened with ISO 9000, where companies producing goods for MNCs had to be ISO 9000-certified. Believe me, Sir, the same will also happen with ISO 14000. We must not be caught napping.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: ( In Mandarin): Sir, in the past 10 years, Singapore's refuse was increasing at the rate of 6% per year. But in 1995, the increase was 10.3%. According to newspaper reports, Singaporeans generated 7,529 tonnes of refuse per day last year and by the year 2000, it was estimated that refuse generated per day would be increased to 9,500 tonnes. Faced with this increasing amount of refuse, Government's solution is increasing the refuse collection fees and said it would also consider charging a fee according to the amount of refuse generated. But in Singapore, most people live in flats. They throw the refuse through the rubbish chute directly down to the collection bin downstairs. It is not possible to calculate how much refuse they throw. This method of charging is not feasible.

I think the Government should look at it in a more comprehensive manner. We should look into how we could reduce the amount of refuse we generate now rather than using price mechanism to increase charges later when the problem becomes acute. In a family, I think most of the refuse are from packaging, like plastic bags, cartons, etc. We should give some incentives to the manufacturers to reduce unnecessary packaging and think of some innovative ways for our people to dispose of their cans and bottles. I think we should encourage the old karang guni trade, help them to develop so that they could collect the refuse to be recycled.

I urge the Ministry of the Environment to take positive measures to reduce the amount of refuse generated annually and not to solve the problem through increasing the burden of the people by raising their refuse collection fees.

Mr Chew Heng Ching (East Coast): Sir, in moving this amendment I wish to declare my interest because I am a director of a company, one of whose subsidiaries is in the business of waste management.

Sir, the recent increase in rubbish collection and refuse removal charges for flats and houses by the Ministry of the Environment, through Semac, has received complaints from some sectors of the public. Refuse collection fees for flats and houses increased by about 8.75% to 10% in the recent increase. I recall that the Ministry of the Environment's refuse collection service was corporatised in April last year, under a company called Semac Private Limited, so that it could operate as a company and function with greater flexibility. The plan was, of course, to keep costs down through encouraging greater efficiency in rubbish collection and to introduce competition eventually into the area of refuse management.

The Ministry of the Environment's intention is to free the market by the year 1999 to allow private waste collectors to come into the market to compete for the collection of refuse from both domestic and trade premises. And I presume the three-year lead time is to allow Semac to get its act together before the Government opens up the market for competition by private operators.

Sir, the participation of private waste collectors is not something new. Indeed, today, 50% of our solid waste generated from industrial/commercial premises, including private condominiums, are collected by private operators. So there are already private operators who have the skill and ability to operate on a large scale collecting rubbish. And the other 50% of waste generated which come mainly from homes and industrial premises are currently collected by Semac, which is MOE.

Sir, I believe that we do not have to wait three or four years, ie, by 1999, to free the market. I believe the private sector operators are ready to participate in refuse collection. I think we should try out a few private operators in the collection of refuse in some of our HDB homes, and even landed properties. I am aware that there is some fear from among Members of this House, and including some of our grassroots leaders and members of the public, of the dire consequences if some of these private operators default. Sir, I think you will remember that when we debated the need for Town Councils in this House, Members also expressed fear that cleaning contractors would default. We could, through our experience in running Town Councils, overcome this fear by setting criteria for private operators to tender for jobs in housing estates, for example, setting up sufficient guidelines, service standards, financial requirements, and so forth, to ensure that private operators who participate in the collection of our rubbish in HDB estates and landed properties are of sufficient standing, reputation and size, before they are allowed to participate.

Sir, I wish to emphasise that it is through privatisation that we are able to keep costs down and that we could even allow differential rates, like SC&CC charges, to be levied on households and residents based on the volume of rubbish collected. I think it is difficult to implement this on a household by household basis. But I think if we implement this on a precinct by precinct basis, it is practical.

Sir, in essence, what I am proposing is that the Minister consider forwarding or advancing the privatisation exercise, opening up the market much earlier before 1999 so that members of the public will benefit through lower cost, through free competition, and hopefully having to pay lower rubbish collection fees.

Dr Wang Kai Yuen (Bukit Timah): Sir, during the Budget debate last year, I advocated that the Ministry should move away completely from the fixed fee system of sewage processing and adopt a fee structure based on the volume of waste water generated.

I am happy to note that when the Government revised the water rate on 1st July this year, the Ministry took the opportunity to adjust, actually to increase, the volume-based fee. But, however, I note that the Minister did not go all the way.

I am aware of the Ministry's plan to build a massive, deep tunnel system to handle the sewage generated by Singaporeans in the future. There is an existing programme to enclose all sewage treatment plants in Singapore so that Singaporeans can enjoy an odourless living environment.

All these infrastructures, Sir, are expensive, and the more waste water we generate, the greater the need for such sewage treatment facilities. I think it is only logical that we should scrap completely the fixed fee system based on the number of sanitary appliances per household and move completely towards the volume-based system. The change introduced this July reflected that the Minister basically agrees with this principle. Perhaps he would take this opportunity to enlighten the House his views on this matter.

Mr Kenneth Chen Koon Lap (Hong Kah): Sir, hawker centres are part of our lives. Apart from being unique in our local food scene, it is also a cheap and convenient source for tasty food for all Singaporeans. The privatisation of hawker stalls is in line with our Government policy of encouraging Singaporeans to own a stake in our country.

Will the Minister inform us how his privatisation scheme is progressing? And is the Ministry monitoring those hawker centres which have been privatised, whether the standard of hygiene is being maintained and, more importantly, whether the price of cooked food has escalated?

I would also like to urge the Minister to keep certain number of hawker stalls for rental and evenly distribute them throughout the island. This will not only enable the Ministry to maintain certain hygiene standards but also serve to stabilise cooked food prices. This is important since more and more husbands and wives are now in the workforce and hawker centres serve as the only place for them to eat economically without having to cook at home.

I would also like to know what plan has been made for the relocation of Newton Hawker Centre. Can the Ministry consider retaining some of these well established hawker centres? Because there are so few left in Singapore, and when these hawker centres are relocated, somehow their characteristics and flavour would be lost.

The Chairman: Mr Peh, you can take your two subjects together.

Mr Peh Chin Hua (Jalan Besar): ( In Mandarin): Sir, the Primary Production Department and the Ministry of the Environment make sure that foods provided here in Singapore are safe and fit for human consumption and strict standards are set to ensure that our hawker centres and restaurants serve good food with a high standard of hygiene. I think we should all commend the Ministry of the Environment and the PPD for a job well done.

I understand that the Ministry of the Environment recently requires hawkers to use styrofoam utensils to serve their food. I feel that this is against the principle of environmental protection because while we are encouraging our people to be environment-friendly, we cannot do something which is against environmental protection. Most hawkers are unhappy with this requirement to use styrofoam utensils. They feel that this requirement is adding on to their cost. They would rather wash and clean their plates and bowls, instead of paying extra money to purchase these disposable utensils. Besides, these disposable utensils are very light and they can be toppled easily or blown away by the wind, causing food wastage and embarrassment to the customers. A lot of hawkers have complained to me about it. I hope that the Ministry of the Environment can sympathize with the grievances of the hawkers. So long as the hawkers can meet the hygiene standard of the Ministry of the Environment, there is no need for us to compel them to use styrofoam utensils. Let them decide for themselves.

My second amendment is on stall ownership. The implementation of the scheme is to allow the hawkers enjoy more autonomy and can thereby provide better services and a wider variety of services to their customers.

However, I think the selling price of the hawker stalls is much too high. It is beyond the means of the ordinary hawkers. Because, apart from the market stalls which are priced at between $20,000 and $30,000, the cooked food stalls are priced from $124,000 to $150,000, and the locked-up stalls cost something between $77,000 and $92,000. I think most of the hawkers cannot afford to pay for these stalls. They are put in a dilemma. If they give up the stalls, they will lose the opportunity to invest and own their stalls. On the other hand, if they take up the offer, they will find it too much of a burden. Moreover, If they do not buy the stalls now, they may be subjected to rounds and rounds of rental increases in future.

I understand that our hawker stalls are heavily subsidized by the Government. I also understand the sentiments of the hawkers and the kind of business they are in. Not every hawker is doing well in his business. Many hawkers earn barely enough to keep their body and soul together. Only a very privileged few struck it rich and can afford to wear Rolex watches, drive luxurious cars, and live in private property. The vast majority of hawkers earn only a few hundred dollars, up to a thousand dollars a month. Apart from the market stalls which are reasonably priced, I think a lot of hawkers have difficulty buying over the stalls because they are priced much too high for their comfort. Moreover, these stalls are sold on a 20-year lease, and loans are offered for not more than 15 years only, for which the monthly instalments are something like $1,000 to $1,500. Add in the stamp duty, property tax, utility charges and service and conservancy charges, they will have to pay more than $2,000 in overheads every month. They may not have anything left for their family expenses. I think, to the hawker, this is a very heavy economic burden. As a result, many hawkers, though desirous of buying their stalls, would not dare to do so because of the high price they have to pay. So, the hawkers feel that this is an excuse for the Government to raise the rentals. They feel that if they do not buy the stalls, within the next five years, rentals will become so high that they may be forced to give up their stalls. 1.45 pm

I hope the Ministry of the Environment can clarify the situation and explain to the people. I also hope the Ministry of the Environment can consider the plight of the hawkers to ensure that it is within the means of the hawkers to buy the stalls.

The Minister for the Environment (Mr Yeo Cheow Tong): Sir, I would like to thank all Members who have spoken on the first cut this afternoon.

Sir, with regard to Mr Heng Chiang Meng's first cut, I agree with him totally that there is tremendous potential for Singapore to develop into a regional centre for environmental technology. Last year, Dr Tan Cheng Bock had brought up this topic too and, contrary to Mr Heng Chiang Meng's and Dr Tan Cheng Bock's perception, actually the Government has been doing quite a fair bit on this area. Let me explain. First, the EDB, TDB, the Productivity and Standards Board and the National Science and Technology Board (NSTB) have been actively involved in promoting the development of the environmental technology (ET) industry. Some of the major steps that have been taken so far are, first, the NSTB has set up the Environmental Technology Institute (ETI) last year. The ETI costs an initial sum of $30 million and its role is to help enhance R&D capabilities of the ET industry. It also allows the industry to develop a high level of skills and expertise which is important because this is an industry that is highly technical and technology intensive.

The Government has also made available fiscal incentives, tax incentives, grants as well as low-cost financing schemes to enable the companies in this industry to either set up in Singapore or to expand as well as to venture into niche ET sectors. They can also use the grants to upgrade their manpower capabilities as well as to embark on R&D activities. Today, there are more than 100 ET companies in Singapore. Several branch offices of very well known international environmental technology and environmental engineering companies have employed very competent and very experienced staff in their Singapore offices for work in the region. We also have a lot of local companies but these are mainly made up of training companies as well as a number of local companies with project management expertise and a few engineering firms.

With respect to that, I agree with Mr Heng that we still need to add depth to our environmental technology industry. We need to help strengthen the industry and we need to build up a comprehensive range of core expertise that will enable the companies to actively go into the region, bid for projects and take advantage of the increasing consciousness about the need to protect the environment in the region. Some of the efforts which my Ministry is taking with MTI and its agencies are, firstly, to attract more foreign consultants and environmental engineering companies to base their operations in Singapore and to use Singapore as their regional base. Secondly, to encourage our local companies, especially those with engineering capabilities, to tie up with renowned foreign consulting and engineering companies. Thirdly, to encourage companies to set up pilot plants in Singapore using new environmental technology.

Sir, tying up with well-known foreign companies is useful because there are mutual benefits. If the Singapore companies have the regional links and contacts, it will make it easier for foreign companies which are not used to the region to obtain business. My Ministry will also continue to concentrate on the promotion and endorsement of major ET trade exhibitions. In the last two years, we endorsed eight major trade exhibitions and conferences. We will also host regional seminars and workshops as well as run training programmes. In the last three years, my Ministry conducted some 50 training programmes and hosted 10 regional environmental seminars. Sir, we will therefore continue to work at it.

With regard to the Science Park analogy, the Science Park is actually open to the entire industrial sector. I think some of the environmental technology companies will find it useful to base their operations in the Science Park because they can then have synergistic tie-ups with other scientifically based companies that are located there. So we will also continue to encourage those that are interested to locate in the Science Park and I think over time the core will grow and the sector will also strengthen.

Mr Heng brought up the example of the financial sector. Sir, the Asian dollar market was started in 1968. It took many years for it to be established, as Mr Heng well knows. I am sure, with the support that the Government is giving to the ET industry, that it too, over time, will continue to strengthen and become a significant player in the Singapore industrial field.

Sir, on educating the public on environmental awareness and protection, I agree with Mr Heng too that it is important to start the education programme while Singaporeans are young because once you get that concept, the mindset of the need to protect the environment well entrenched in their thinking, as adults, that same habit will carry through. And this is exactly what the Ministry of the Environment has been doing. We have worked with the Ministry of Education and now the environmental topics are included in many topics, for example, in the syllabus of social science, general science, biology and geography, and these topics are taught in both the primary and secondary school levels. We also have a standing arrangement with the schools to visit my Ministry to view our exhibits on the environment, watch environmental videos and learn the importance of protecting our environment. We also organise visits for school children to refuse incineration plants, sewerage treatment works and other facilities. Last year, more than 300 such visits were organised. And many schools today also have environmental clubs where students come together to take part in activities like promoting waste recycling, adopting beaches for annual clean ups, etc.

Sir, on his suggestion to provide fiscal incentives to promote environmentally friendly practices, this is being done now on a selective basis. For example, tax incentives to promote the use of more water and energy efficient industrial processes. What Mr Heng has suggested is giving incentives to the individuals. We will definitely explore the feasibility of this, including all the suggestions that have been made by Mr Heng this morning. However, while we want to protect the environment, we should also be careful to support the use of technology or equipment which is economically viable. Otherwise, we would be subsidising waste inefficiency, and in fact be counter productive in terms of protecting the environment. Also, if these practices apply to the economic sector, this would then lead to wastage and undermine our long-term competitiveness.

Sir, we will continue to find ways to strengthen the public education programme and we look forward to the support of the entire community for our collective efforts to make Singapore truly clean and green.

Sir, on the environmental management and production techniques, I agree with Mr Heng that the concept of sustainable development is more than just a passing fad. The concept recognises that manufacturing processes that are environmentally sound benefit not just the environment but also the companies involved. This is because processes that generate a lot of waste end up polluting the environment in the first place and, second, the waste comes from resources that the company has to put in. Therefore, it costs the company money to provide that raw material and to clean up the waste. It is thus beneficial for both companies and the environment to adopt sustainable development systems.

The Government recognises that in time ISO 14000 will definitely become an important international standard. Not only that, as pointed out by Mr Heng, environmentally conscious consumers in some developed countries may insist on buying only goods that comply with ISO 14000. Sir, we are now working with the private sector to promote ISO 14000. There is a committee now led by the Singapore Confederation of Industries together with public sector representation that is actively encouraging local companies to adopt these standards.

In support of ISO 14000, the Government has already made available several financial assistance schemes. For example, we now have financial grants for local companies to engage consultants to help them attain certification. We also have a special group assistance scheme to help small and medium-sized enterprises obtain ISO 14000 certification at a lower cost. I am sure all these efforts will help to increase the number of companies that are able to comply with ISO 14000 requirements in the years to come.

Let me move on to the points brought up by Mr Low Thia Khiang. Sir, Mr Low proposes that the Ministry of the Environment do more to encourage households to recycle or reduce their waste as well as to encourage companies to reduce the amount of materials used in the packaging because, in terms of household waste, this constitutes quite a fair bit. Sir, the household waste, as Mr Low pointed out, actually comprises a wide range of materials, food waste, packaging materials made from different materials and waste paper, the bulk of which is actually old newspapers. This makes recycling of household refuse a little bit difficult. The exception is waste paper and here, we have a very well-established system. As Mr Low has pointed out, this karang guni man goes round from flat to flat to collect old newspapers. In the old days, the farmers also used to collect our food waste to feed the pigs. Unfortunately, we do not have farmers any more. So the food waste is now also thrown together with the other household waste.

We have been working with various town councils to implement recycling projects in the public housing estates. Town councils encourage their residents to bring their newspapers and old magazines down to the collection points so that they can be brought for recycling. It is not very successful because few residents could be bothered. What the town councils found was that, quite often, the collection bins also have other things thrown in as well. So we still have to rely on the karang guni man. Nonetheless, my Ministry will continue to explore other recycling options and we will contact the town councils as and when these alternatives are worked out. 2.00 pm

The other thing that we are working on, as suggested by Mr Low, is to work with companies to encourage them to use less packaging materials. This is something that we have also been doing, because it is not only good in terms of reducing household waste, but I think it is also good for the companies. When they use less packaging materials, it also results in cost savings for them. So this is something that we can work together with them and we will continue to encourage them to do so.

Let me now move on to Mr Chew Heng Ching on the question of introducing competition on the domestic refuse collection scheme. I agree with him that it is the Government's philosophy that we introduce competition wherever possible, because competition tends to promote more innovative thinking, more productive schemes and methods and, therefore, result in lower costs, which eventually will also benefit the consumers. This was indeed the reason why we corporatised the ENV's refuse collection unit last year.

The target is to introduce competition into the domestic refuse collection system in April 1999. To meet this deadline, my Ministry will be calling for tenders for the first domestic refuse collection zone in the second quarter of next year. This is to give the successful companies enough lead time to acquire the equipment, because the domestic refuse collection system requires a lot of very expensive equipment, and the zones are going to be quite big. So the successful company will have to invest in quite a fair bit of equipment.

We are now working out the details of the tender and it will, of course, contain stipulations that will avoid the possibility of the successful companies defaulting on their contract subsequently. I would encourage companies that are interested, including Mr Chew's, to get ready for the tender, because there are only about 6-9 months more to go.

Dr Wang Kai Yuen spoke on the sanitary appliance fee. Yes, I note that he also raised it last year. And that is why in the recent announcement of the new schedule of fee revisions, we only revised the water borne fee, which is volume related, and this ties in with our efforts to promote water conservation. The more you use, the more waste you are going to generate, the more you have to pay also.

I agree with him that the sanitary appliance fee should be abolished, because it was introduced a long time ago when it was valid. Today, it no longer ties in with our philosophy. But the difficulty is that the sanitary appliance fee now is a major component of our total waste water fees. Reducing the sanitary appliance fee will require us to adjust the water borne fees very significantly to make up for the loss of this component. By the year 2000, when the recent schedule of fee revisions has been fully implemented, the sanitary appliance fee will then form only about a quarter of the total waste water fees. This will allow my Ministry to gradually reduce the sanitary appliance fee in subsequent revisions after that. After the year 2000, we will definitely be taking steps to reduce the sanitary appliance fee.

Mr Kenneth Chen asked about the privatisation scheme or sale of hawker stall scheme and whether we are monitoring on the standard of hygiene and prices, and asked that we should retain some of the rental stalls throughout the island. Since June 1994, we have offered 1,749 stalls in 12 hawker centres for sale to the sitting stallholders. The acceptance rate for the cooked food stalls was very, very good. 99.76% accepted the offer. And for market produce stalls, the acceptance rate was 89.1%. We are selling the fourth batch of stalls soon.

Sir, he asked whether we have been monitoring. Yes, my officials have been monitoring both the food prices and the standard of hygiene in the 12 hawker centres that have been sold. In terms of prices, less than 30% of the cooked food stallholders increased their prices. And even then, we found that the increase was quite marginal, and the final price actually was comparable to the prices in centres that were not sold. That means they just adjusted the prices to be level with their other competitors.

In terms of hygiene, we have also been monitoring, and I am happy to say that, in fact, the stallholders in the sold stalls, because they now own their stalls, are likely to be also more conscious about the need to maintain their reputation and image. So they have been maintaining the hygiene as well.

In terms of food prices, contrary to some fears, the food prices have remained competitive for several reasons, despite the fact that the instalments now are much higher than what they were paying as subsidised rentals before. The main reason is that they are now able to make more efficient use of the stalls. Previously, when they were renting the stalls at subsidised rates, the stallholders were actually subjected to a lot of restrictions. For example, they cannot sub-let the stalls. Not only that, they had to be personally present at the stall during operating hours. This means that most hawkers either operate in the morning and afternoon, and they go home and rest from late evening onwards and they do not open at night. They open for lunch and dinner, but they do not open for breakfast. It is physically not possible for them to be at the stall for 24 hours.

As stall owners know, these restrictions no longer apply. They can operate longer hours by employing staff to operate for them when they are at home resting. They are also able to sub-let the stall either half the day and operate on their own the other half, or they can even sub-let the whole stall without any problems. This has allowed them to operate the stall more optimally and because of that, it has helped to keep their costs down and enable them to retain their old prices.

Sir, on the need to retain some stalls for rental, this is what we are, in fact, going to do, and a significant number of stalls will remain unsold, and these are stalls in centres which are likely to be redeveloped in the coming years. So there will still be competition from a large number of rental hawker stalls to keep our food prices reasonable and affordable.

Sir, he has asked about the relocation of Newton Hawker Centre. The Newton Hawker Centre is in a very prime area. Eventually, the piece of land that the hawker centre is sitting on will be redeveloped. The timing has not been fixed yet. We will make the announcement in due course.

Mr Peh Chin Hua asked the Ministry not to compel hawker stall operators to use disposable crockery. I would like to clarify that it is not the policy of my Ministry to insist or compel stallholders to use disposable crockery. We believe that this is something which is best left to the market to decide. Hawkers will have to decide whether it is cheaper to use disposable crockery, or whether it is cheaper for them to employ somebody to collect the used dishes and to wash them. We will leave it to them. The economics will work out differently for each hawker. Those with a very high turnover of sales can probably afford to use disposable crockery. Others may not wish to. But we will leave it to them.

I think it is useful for hawkers to note that they will find it increasingly difficult to employ hawker assistants in the years ahead, because of our tight labour supply. Not only that, even if they can find the hawker assistants, I think they are going to be more expensive as well. Those who are unable to hire assistants will then have to look for other options. And the possibilities would be to operate as self-service hawker stalls where customers come and collect their food themselves, and also to get the customers to clear their own crockery after they have finished eating, exactly like what happens in the fast-food restaurants.

I think the challenge is to get Singaporeans to cooperate and to get them to change their mindset, that when they go to a hawker centre, the food gets delivered to them. They eat and run, leaving the table in a mess. We have to convince them that actually it is in their own interest for them to eat and clear. Because if everybody eats and clears his own dishes, then when you go to a hawker centre, you sit down, the table is clean, instead of having to wait for the table to be cleared by others.

As a result of this thinking, my Ministry decided to test whether Singaporeans can be encouraged to self-clear the table after eating. We found that at Taman Serasi and Adam Road Centre, many of the hawker stalls were already using disposable crockery. We discussed with the hawker associations there and the hawker associations decided, yes, it is worth their while to give it a try. So we tried out the concept of self-clearing at these two hawker centres. All that we require the hawker associations to do was to provide two sets of bins - one bin for disposable crockery and another bin for hawkers that are using the non-disposable crockery, because we do not want them to get mixed up. Those hawkers who are using non-disposable crockery were not asked to change. I think many of them are still continuing.

We will identify other centres that are feasible and work with the hawker associations to see whether they want to try out this concept too. Let us see whether the concept succeeds in the first two hawker centres, and we have added another two hawker centres to the scheme. If the concept succeeds at these four hawker centres, I am sure other hawker centres will also follow suit. We will leave it to the market.

Mr Peh also asked about the sale of stalls. His feedback is that the hawker stalls are too expensive and the hawkers cannot afford to pay the high prices. But yet at the same time, they are afraid that if they do not buy, they also end up in trouble because rentals will go up, or they may have to leave.

Sir, let me clarify that the valuation of the hawker stalls is done by the Chief Valuer. In valuing the stalls, the Chief Valuer would take into consideration certain factors, eg, the location of the hawker centre, the popularity of the hawker centre, the location of the actual stall itself and its rental potentials. The Government has been very conscious of the need to keep the selling prices affordable, and that is why we have capped the leases to 20 years, so that the selling prices will be affordable, because longer leases inevitably mean higher selling prices. In addition, we have given the stallholders a generous discount of up to 30%. Again, that has lightened their load. And to further assist them, we have also arranged for the financial institutions to provide loans up to 100% of the selling price. They are allowed to repay the loans over 15 years. Not only that, for stallholders who have problems, they can include up to three family members as co-owners to facilitate the financing of the stall. As a result of all these efforts, the response to the sale of stalls programme has been very good. As I mentioned just now, over 99% of the cooked food stalls were bought over. I think this shows that the selling prices were reasonable and attractive. 2.15 pm

Another factor which confirms this is the resale of stalls. In our monitoring, we found that a third of the cooked food stalls have been resold. Based on the feedback from the hawkers themselves, they have told us that the profits from the resale ranged from $50,000 to $200,000. This shows that the Chief Valuer has been very conservative in his pricing. The other matter is, of course, the stallholders find the scheme attractive because all the restrictions are lifted. As a result, now the instalment payments from the stallholders are still lower than the tendered prices for rental stalls as well as the rental prices set by the food courts and coffeeshops. There is a good comparison there.

He asked about those stallholders who do not wish to buy over the stall. There are several options open. One, the hawker can still stay on his present stall if he does not want to buy it. But the rentals would be gradually increased to the market rental over a period of five years. So there is a phasing-in period. He can also give up his stall and receive a cash grant if he qualifies for one. Third, he can request to be given a subsidised stall in another hawker centre that is not due to be sold yet. There are options open for him.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Sir, may I seek a clarification from the Minister?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: I would like to know what is the Ministry of the Environment's position on the idea of charging households for refuse collection based on the volume of domestic refuse they produce?

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Sir, this is a system that has been introduced in some of the developed countries. But in those countries the domestic residential make-up is quite different from Singapore. Many of the domestic households are in landed properties. You can identify exactly who is generating how much waste. In Singapore, the vast majority of Singaporeans live in highrise flats. It is very difficult to charge according to what each household is generating. But as Mr Chew has pointed out just now, one possibility is to charge by precinct, that means by a whole precinct, a group of flats together. Even then the link between what I generate and what I pay is not there. But once we privatise the system, we will be happy to leave it to the successful tenderers to decide whether they want to charge by precinct or charge on a whole zone basis.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: What is the position of the Ministry on this?

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: As I said, in Singapore, because the majority of us are in highrise buildings, it is not feasible. The link between what you generate and what you pay is not there and the number of people living in landed property is actually a small percentage of the Singapore households.

Mr Peh Chin Hua: ( In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to clarify one point. I understand that in the past, it was easy for hawkers to sell their food stalls in the resale market. But this year the resale of stalls is very difficult. So in the case of the sale of a hawker's stall at, say, $120,000, is it possible for the Minister for the Environment to collect $50,000 first, and allow the hawkers to pay the remaining $70,000 within the next five years or when the stall is resold? This will give them time to make the necessary adjustment.

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Sir, if the price of the stall is, let us say, $120,000, as stated by Mr Peh, and the stallholder has $50,000 cash, he can still pay the $50,000 cash and get the remaining $70,000 as a loan from a finance company. His instalment every month would still be very low. And when he sells, he can pay back whatever outstanding balance there is from the proceeds of the sale of the stall.

Mr Peh Chin Hua: ( In Mandarin): According to my feedback from the hawkers, some of them are not able to pay $50,000 in cash. It is because they do not have the cash to buy the stall. If they need to pay $50,000, and they borrow the amount from a financial institution, their monthly instalment is only $300-odd dollars. In the event of a resale, they can pay the remaining $70,000 back to the Hawkers Department. However, they do not even have the $50,000 cash upfront, and I know many do not have.

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: I am sorry. I did not quite catch him. I thought he meant that if a stallholder has $50,000 cash, is he proposing to let them pay $50,000 first?

Mr Peh Chin Hua: Yes, and after that pay another $70,000.

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: If he wants to buy, then he pays whatever cash he has and he should borrow the remaining sum from a financial institution. Even if he borrows the full sum, the installments are still lower than a stallholder next door who may have tendered for the stall earlier on. If he feels that it is still not worth taking the risk, he can continue to stay on and pay the rentals which will gradually increase over five years. Or if he still does not want to run that risk, he can, of course, request for a subsidised stall at another hawker centre elsewhere. There are many options available for him. If he feels uncomfortable, he is not compelled to rush in to buy the stall.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang (Jalan Besar): ( In Mandarin): Sir, Singapore wants to become a gracious society, an advanced country and a mature society. To do all this, we must have citizens with a sense of responsibility as in the West. In Switzerland, their citizens do not need fines or corrective work orders to be environmentally conscious. They are very "clean and green". For Singaporeans, to attain a high sense of responsibility like the western countries, it will take quite a long time. But if the Government and the people work together, I think we will be able to reach that standard much sooner. So I feel that the Ministry of the Environment should strongly promote environmental cleanliness to stress the responsibility of the citizens and give them a sense of mission. This public education will ensure that our people will be very conscious about environmental cleanliness and to treat it as a habit and an ethos in our society.

But when we look at Singapore during the weekends, especially in the HDB estates, we can see that in the void decks, and the hawker centres, there is a lot of rubbish and litter around. This is mainly because of the habit of littering by our residents. This is a very selfish behaviour. I would like to ask the Minister what are his comments on the cleanliness of Singaporeans and what plan does the Ministry of the Environment have to promote public education on environmental cleanliness.

I think we should use the carrot and stick method. Apart from rewarding the people for having the cleanest block, we should also appoint a cleanliness envoy to reward model citizens who are very clean and environmentally conscious. We should also consider how we could go a step further to punish the litter bugs and consider whether our present measures are effective enough. Some people feel that our Corrective Work Order has not achieved its objective. We must think of new measures to punish our litter bugs such as publishing their names in the newspapers over and above the corrective work order so that they would have a sense of guilt in them. Under these circumstances, I think Singapore will be much cleaner and more beautiful.

Dr Wang Kai Yuen: Sir, several years back, the control of noise pollution during the construction of buildings was transferred from the Building Control Division to the Ministry of the Environment. Prior to the transfer, the construction activities were restricted to normal working hours and on occasions where there is a possibility that neighbours are disturbed, the activities were actually prohibited. So there was quiet and peace in the construction site located in the residential areas after dark.

After the transfer, construction of buildings is no longer restricted to certain working hours but could actually go on round the clock. The only protection for Singaporeans from such noise pollution activities at night is the noise level stipulated by the Ministry of the Environment. When a complaint is lodged, the Ministry of the Environment will set up a monitoring station and if the monitor indicates that the level has exceeded the stipulated level and a violation has occurred, a citation will be issued to the party concerned and the fine is not exceeding $2,000 per occurrence. In theory, Sir, this seems to be very logical and provides sufficient safeguards to Singaporeans.

I am sorry to say that, at least in the Bukit Timah constituency, the actual situation is quite different. Many property developers, especially those of the high-price condominiums, have embarked on a 24-hour work construction schedule without regard to the need of residents for peace in the night. When residents lodge a complaint to the police after, say, 11.00 pm, the police officers will promptly show up but they are powerless to do anything if the contractor does not cooperate. ENV will be duly informed. But since the Ministry of the Environment does not work 24 hours a day, its officers will only set up the monitor station the following day. By then, it would be typically too late to punish the culprit and to alleviate the suffering of the residents concerned.

So what if the contractor was fined? A fine of $2,000 is insignificant compared to the delay of a few days in a multi-million construction project. In fact, many contractors would willingly pay the fine rather than to stop work. The current system is unsatisfactory as it gives the impression that the rule of law is uneven. That it is not even handed in this respect. Let me give Members an example. When your neighbour creates disturbance beyond 11.00 pm and you complain to the police, the police will show up and your neighbour would promptly quiet down. They would obey the law. On the other hand, when a construction site next to your house is creating all kinds of havoc, waking up all the neighbours around the site with fleets of ready mixed cement trucks rumbling down the normal quiet street, with heavy machinery labouring throughout the night, the police is powerless to act.

Sir, this is no good for the image of the police and also for the morale of the officers concerned. It seems that the existing noise pollution control is effective against the individuals but ineffective against the big construction companies. Of the many constituents who have complained to me, many of them harbour the impression that the Government has favoured the big boys in the property development business and allowed them to make use of these loopholes. I know of course that this is not true but this perception is not good for the image of the Government. I would like to ask the Minister to review the existing system and to make the necessary changes to prevent future occurrence of this nature. The Minister has been very kind to support my earlier proposal. So I hope he will also be equally supportive of this request.

The Chairman: Can you take your three amendments together, Prof. Low? 2.30 pm

Assoc. Prof. Low Seow Chay (Chua Chu Kang): Thank you, Sir. The first topic I would like to talk about is air pollution from mobile source vehicles.

Sir, there are regulations in Singapore to control air pollution from road vehicles from the day they are registered. However, after the vehicles were used for a few years, either due to wear and tear, poor maintenance or control equipment out of tune, the vehicles no longer satisfy the stringent emission standards when they were new. Take the three-way catalytic converter as an example. Tests show that some cars still remain good after a while. However, some of the cheaper cars show serious deterioration in their emission levels, just after on the road for about three years.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he has any plans to do with such deterioration or malfunctioning of the emission control equipment of vehicles.

Most of the road users have to tolerate with the diesel soot from diesel vehicles and the odorant from the two-stroke motorcycles daily. For the diesel vehicles, failure to control the diesel soot is partly due to maintenance and also partly due to the fuel which is used. Laboratory tests show that detergent additive in the diesel fuel has a significant effect in the reduction of diesel soot by using the principle of keeping the fuel injection equipment clean. Different brands of diesel in Singapore use different additives whose effect could be quite different from one another. The fleet operators of trucks or buses in Singapore might not necessarily use diesel of the same standards like those from the diesel pump in the petrol station because they may have a third party supplier.

Sir, I would like to ask the Minister to consider studying how the detergent additive could contribute towards the reduction of diesel soot pollution, and if proven significant, to consider making detergent additive mandatory as part of the diesel fuel for all diesel vehicles in Singapore.

The odorant and the incomplete combustion product from the exhaust of a two-stroke motorcycle is quite unique for all the two-stroke motorcycle engines. The pollutant is made worse by poor tuning or by intentional supply of excessive amounts of lubricants and adding of lubrication oil directly into the fuel in order to prevent piston seizure. There is no way to have a clean motorcycle exhaust if the two-stroke motorcycle engine is still allowed to be on the road.

I suggest that we should ban all the two-stroke motorcycles from registration. For the old two-stroke motorcycles, we should implement a mandatory annual inspection plan and make sure that those who pass the test must try their best to reduce the emission to the lowest possible level.

Sir, now I would like to move on to the next topic - indoor air quality.

In Singapore, indoor air quality is a very important issue for all Singaporeans because almost all offices, shopping centres and public places are air-conditioned. In places of work, good air quality provides an environment such that it will enhance the efficiency of people's work. In places like shopping centres, people might have a much more pleasant and comfortable environment. They will stay longer in the shopping centre and spend more.

Not all the offices and public places are provided with a high quality of indoor air. I am sure that we have entered into a building that smells musty. Certain parts of the office we have worked in before could have been filled with smell from the photocopying machines. This is particularly common for shopping centres providing photocopying services. There are also halls and lecture theatres which cause people to feel sleepy after being there for a while. An engineer informed me that he had conducted a study of a lecture theatre and found that the carbon dioxide level to be 2000 ppm. This is many times the carbon dioxide level of an unpolluted air. We know there are also staircases in the shopping centres which are filled with the smell of urine.

Sir, these are common examples of buildings that fail in their basic standard of indoor air quality. Poor indoor air quality will have a very bad effect on people who stay in a building, such as offices, for a prolonged period of time. The simplest symptoms of poor air quality could be drowsiness, eye irritation, dry throat, flu or headache. In the long term, it could develop into allergy or respiratory disease. I would like to ask the Minister whether there are regulations to ensure that building owners always maintain a good quality of indoor air. If people are not satisfied with the indoor air quality of offices, factories or public places, to whom could they lodge their complaint and what action could be taken by the authorities?

Sir, the third topic I like to talk about is Legionnaire's disease. Legionnaire's disease is described as a serious form of pneumonia which has a very high mortality rate. The cause of such a disease was traced to the water in the cooling tower of air-conditioning system which provides water in a warm, moist and stagnant condition. This provides a very good opportunity for all the Legionnaire's bacteria to multiply to a risky level. After inhaling that bacteria into the lungs, it causes infection.

The first outbreak of the disease was in Philadelphia in 1976. 221 people contracted and 34 died. The second largest outbreak was in England, Stafford Hospital, in 1985, where 101 people contracted and 28 died. In Australia, it was reported on the Internet that the disease has become so common that one-third of the Australians have developed antibodies through contact with the disease. The largest outbreak in Australia was in Wollongong, in 1987, where 44 cases required hospitalisation and 10 people died. It actually turned a thriving shopping centre into a ghost town.

The Straits Times on 13th June 1997 reported that in Singapore last year, 32 people caught the disease and four died. Out of the 321 air-conditioning cooling towers sampled in Singapore, 60% were tested positive for the Legionnaire's bacteria. For those installed in the institutions of higher learning, 12 out of 12 failed the test. In other words, 100% tested positive for contamination of the disease.

Sir, this is a frightening figure. If no proper and serious action is taken, we could not be sure that there will be no Legionnaire disease outbreak like those which had already occurred in other parts of the world. I would like to ask the Minister what action his Ministry has taken to deal with those buildings which were tested positive for the Legionnaire's bacteria. In what way will the Ministry ensure that Singapore will be free from the Legionnaire outbreak which has occurred in other parts of the world? Would the Minister consider licensing the operation of cooling towers on an annual basis, making it compulsory for all building owners to engage qualified people to certify that it is Legionnaire-free?

The Senior Minister of State for the Environment (Encik Sidek bin Saniff): Sir, let me first thank all the three speakers for their constructive observations as well as suggestions.

Let me first answer Mr Choo Wee Khiang. I agree fully with the Member for Jalan Besar GRC that any anti-social behaviour, be it urinating in lift or littering in public places, must be frowned upon. The number of people caught urinating in the lift has dropped quite significantly. In 1995, it was about 40. Last year it was only 14. The urine detection device installed by the Town Council inside the lifts has certainly been an effective deterrent. Under the law, the offence of urinating and defecating in lift carries a maximum fine of $1,000 for the first offence, and $2,000 for the second and subsequent offence. The penalties are considered adequate for now. If the situation warrants it, my Ministry will consider heavier penalties.

Sir, in the case of littering, my Ministry notes that the offence is still very common. Last year, a total of 7,790 litterbugs were caught and punished. This was a third higher than 5,707 litterbugs caught a year before. When it started in 1992, there were about 4,000 only. So the maximum penalty, through our Corrective Work Orders, has not been a sufficient deterrent to make some people take the extra effort to put litter in its proper place and my Ministry is therefore considering increasing the penalties for littering.

I understand the sentiments of the Member about gracious living, advocated very strongly by our Prime Minister. The buzzword at the international level is sustainable development. In our case, a sustainable city. What does this mean? It boils down to sustainable community. That is why I fully agree with the MP's observation. We will try to do our best.

Sir, Dr Wang Kai Yuen asked about the control of building construction noise pollution. My Ministry has always been the authority controlling noise nuisance from construction sites, although before 1989 the Building Control Division had also stipulated some control measures when it issued permits to carry out building works. My Ministry shares the Member's concern on the noise problem faced by the residents when construction activities take place close to their homes. We have also noticed an increase in public complaints this year compared to last year and the previous year. We recognise that it is difficult to apprehend the culprit, even though we may have audiometric recording meters installed at the site. My Ministry will examine how best such nuisance can be reduced further, particularly during the night and on rest days. We will review our standard and we may have to impose more punitive measures against the recalcitrant.

Our aim is to strike a balance, and this balance is very important, between minimising noise nuisance and maintaining essential development. The Member said that we give the "big boys" a slightly different sort of treatment. This is a perception that people have. I am a very strong advocate that perception is a mosaic of reality. But if perception is not being erased, somehow or rather the reality will succumb to perception. And because of that perception, we will make sure that this perception is erased.

Sir, Assoc. Prof. Low Seow Chay asked about the air pollution control policies. Let me say that catalytic converters are designed to last a minimum 160,000 km. On average, this works out to some 10 years, the same as the life-span of a COE for a new car. Experience in other countries has shown that catalytic converters can last the lifetime of a car if there is no physical damage caused by accident or "poisoning" by leaded petrol. Cars are inspected at regular intervals. Any malfunctioning of the catalytic converter can be detected when the emission test is conducted during the inspection. Since 1st July of this year, cars equipped with catalytic converters are required to comply with a more stringent emission standard. This standard is set so that a non-performing catalytic converter can be quickly and easily identified. If a vehicle fails the emission test at its periodic inspection, the owner will not be allowed to renew his road tax until he rectifies the fault and passes the test. A new catalytic converter must be installed in order to pass the test. 2.45 pm

Sir, Prof. Low asked about the indoor air quality policy. Let me first clarify that the mechanical ventilation system in air-conditioned buildings is built to a certain standard as specified by the Building Control Division and not by my Ministry. These standards specify, among other parameters, that the minimum amount of fresh air supplied for the building must be there. They also specify the number of air changes required per hour. Air-conditioned offices in Singapore therefore are designed and built to ensure that the enclosed environment is healthy and conducive for work. I believe what the Member is referring to is the publication called "Guidelines for Good Indoor Air Quality in Office Premises". This document, which was published by my Ministry in conjunction with specialists in the private sector, is to inform the management of office buildings the practices of ensuring good indoor air quality. For example, ventilation outlets should not be blocked. Offices should be properly ventilated, if chemicals are used in cleaning the interior of the buildings, etc.

Finally, my Ministry has no plans to make any regulation on indoor air quality, as this is still a very new area for which no standards have been set by the World Health Organisation and the threshold levels have not really been established in many countries in the world. We will, however, continue to encourage good practices in maintaining good indoor air quality through training courses and seminars for building managers.

Sir, finally, the Member said that it is quite alarming. I want to assure the august Chamber here and the public at large that the Legionnaire's disease is not widespread in Singapore, with only one or two confirmed infection cases per year. The disease affects mostly the elderly whose resistance, as you know, is low. It is, however, a treatable disease if detected early. A study conducted by my Ministry from 1991 to 1996 showed that the Legionnaire's bacteria can be found in about one-third of airconditioning cooling towers. However, the risk of outbreak of Legionnaire's disease is very small because only 11% of these cooling towers were found with levels above the threshold level that can give rise to a problem. And even then, only 2.5% of the bacteria belongs to the strain that can cause an outbreak of the disease. This means, in effect, only one in a few thousand cooling towers in Singapore is at risk.

To prevent any possible outbreak of Legionnaire's disease, my Ministry has taken steps to ensure that cooling towers in Singapore are properly maintained. A code of practice on the servicing and maintenance of air-conditioned cooling towers was published and this code is now widely used by the water treatment specialists in their maintenance programme. In the event Legionnaire bacteria is found in the cooling tower, even if it belongs to the non-pathogenic strain, a warning will be served on the management to take immediate corrective measures for cooling towers over the threshold level. Enforcement action will be taken. Let me also assure the Members here that our incidence rate is still lower than in Japan, Paris, UK and Australia.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang: The Senior Minister of State might not have got me completely right. I said that actually it is a two-pronged approach. One should be a long-term one, that is, to make Singapore clean as one's responsibility and duty. Therefore, public education is one very important way to do it.

Secondly, I did not advocate that heavier penalties would be necessary to penalise the litterbugs. I was asking whether there are other more appropriate forms to penalise litterbugs. For example, those who urinate in the lifts. Will you want them to clean up the lift which they have urinated, or clean the toilet, or some other form of punishment, not necessarily a fine. Fines may not resolve the matter.

Encik Sidek bin Saniff: Sir, I cannot agree more. I am sorry if I misinterpreted the first part because I thought the first part was answered by my Minister just now when he was saying about the close rapport between ENV and the Education Ministry. That is where I think we should inculcate the value system and this must come from the schools. And of course, there are areas where we are also having very close rapport with the grassroots organisations. On top of it, if we still fail, human beings being such, they will only realise it when they are punished. But I must say that punishment, in whatever form, is part and parcel of our law and order and we will use that power given to us judiciously.

Mr R. Sinnakaruppan (Kreta Ayer-Tanglin): Sir, we often talk passionately about levelling up the society in Singapore so that the lower strata of our society can have greater opportunities to move up and have a share in Singapore's wealth. Sir, all this will amount to mere lip service if we do not do enough, for example, the daily rated employees (DREs) working in the Ministry of the Environment. Sir, we talk about paying high salaries for top civil servants and justify these huge salaries because they are the top brains in the service. But what about also paying adequately for the brawns of the DRE ENV workers who sweat and toil in rain and shine during weekends and weekdays, public holidays, to clean our roads or do the unpleasant but essential work in the sewerage plants. Many of these workers are in their 50s and 60s or even nearing 70s. Sir, we take their work for granted. If these workers just for one day stop work, then our image as the cleanest city in the world will soon be ridiculed and diminished. Of course, NTUC will ensure that they do not go slow but I think we cannot take their work for granted.

Sir, indeed we seem to be squeezing too much from these workers. Let me give you a vivid example. A Samy, aged 62 years, has been working in the Ministry of the Environment for the past 33 years. His current basic salary is only $648.90! His gross salary is $973 after working for 33 years. Mdm Goh Boon Eng who has been working also in the Ministry of the Environment in the Cleansing Section for 19 years earns only a take-home pay of $622. Sir, does this not sound like exploitation of labour? Samy and Mdm Goh are just two of the 78% of the 3,329 DREs who are unskilled. It is not entirely their fault that they are unskilled. The Environment Ministry is to be blamed.

Over the years, ENV has not done much to train these DREs or to mechanise their operations. Some of the ENV officers that I have spoken to tell me that the DRE workers cannot be trained and that it is very difficult to mechanise their operations. Sir, I get very angry and annoyed when I hear such responses. Why is this so?

First, PUB also has a lot of DRE workers. But the PUB management has done an excellent job in providing adequate training for their DRE workers. Many of these workers have moved from BEST, WISE and even to N' and O' levels and these workers are also in their 50s and 60s. Sir, why can the ENV not learn from the PUB about training these precious unskilled workers who are getting rare and rare?

Sir, the second reason why I am angry and annoyed is that I am an automation engineer and I have designed robots and machines in the early years of my career. To tell me that the cleansing works cannot be mechanised is a very very lame excuse. Just look at the private sector janitorial companies. They will point to many mechanised equipment that are available in the market. And if not, I will be prepared to advise ENV on how to design some of these machines.

An hon. Member: Free of charge.

Mr Sinnakaruppan: Free of charge. What the ENV officers need to do is to approach the issue of mechanisation with a fresh mindset and do a fundamental redesign of the cleansing jobs and train these workers towards that end. And if they cannot do that, it may be better for Government to corporatise the operations, just like what they have done for refuse collection where SEMAC has been corporatised. SEMAC is highly mechanised and have happier workers who are better paid.

Sir, last year, the public transport workers were recognised for their contributions to the public. This year, on PM's suggestion, the environmental workers in Singapore will be recognised. Sir, because this is a special year for the environmental workers, I would like to urge the Ministry of the Environment to do a major review in the salary structure and the working conditions of the DREs and be generous in granting salary adjustments. Sir, a 15% increase in the salary of a DRE earning, say, $800 will only amount to $120. And let me remind the Minister that the collective agreement for the DREs is long overdue, more than six months to nine months.

So I would like to urge the ENV not to make a mockery of the Government's plan to level up society and show greater compassion for their loyal DREs.

Assoc. Prof. Low Seow Chay: Sir, the topic I would like to talk about is recycled water from sewer plants.

Sir, as a GPC Member for the Environment, I have the opportunity to visit the sewerage plant in Kranji. I found that after treatment a huge volume of water at the sewerage plant becomes crystal clear before being discharged into the ocean. This water has a trace of heavy metal and some bio-organism because some sewer water came from the industry. It is not suitable for drinking but it is clean enough for use in such areas as cleaning of toilets, flushing and watering of plants in non-catchment areas. 3.00 pm

Sir, the quantity of such water is huge. The daily production rate could be in the order of half a million cubic metres which is comparable to the water consumption rate of Singapore. If we are able to convince people to use this large quantity of water in whatever feasible way, it will be able to lessen our dependence on fresh water supply. I would like to urge the Ministry to look into the following areas:

(1) Promote the use of and sell this kind of recycled water aggressively for industrial, agricultural, construction and domestic application.

(2) Consider building supply lines to all the potential high consumption areas.

(3) Separate the industrial effluence from the domestic effluence so that the recycled water could be free from heavy metal contamination.

(4) Conduct research to explore a cost effective solution to raise the quality of non-heavy metal contaminated recycled water for better use.

(5) Conduct research to overcome all the known problems in the use of such recycled water.

Mr Kenneth Chen Koon Lap: Sir, we are used to confronting problems facing us in the short or medium term, but we are somehow reluctant to confront problems in the distant future, no matter how serious these problems are. More than any other country, Singapore being devoid of any natural resources, should realise the serious consequences we face when the resources in the world are being depleted so rapidly. It will only get worse when at the same time our population increases at such a mind-boggling speed and our insatiable desire to consume more and more of these precious resources.

Once in a while, we hear the desperate cries for preservation of our forests, our minerals, our water and other essential resources, but these are mainly voices from some concerned environmentalists. Sometimes, it does draw some token response from world leaders. But it seems that it has never been an issue that warrants the serious attention that it deserves.

It has always been recognised that recycling would help to preserve some of our precious resources. In Singapore, we did embark on some recycling programmes, but the question is: are we doing enough? It is commendable that the Ministry of the Environment is recycling our refuse as fuel to generate power and has also encouraged companies to engage in recycled used wood particles. Can the Ministry let us know how successful are these projects?

Not too long ago, there were some efforts to promote the use of recycled paper, and I used to receive letters from Government departments using recycled paper. There were also attempts made to recycle unwanted cans, bottles and other recyclable materials. I remember there were some bins placed along Orchard Road for this purpose. Somehow this did not gather momentum. Perhaps it is because the cost of recycling is too high. For example, recycled paper costs more than ordinary paper now. But we should not be so shortsighted and look at everything in terms of cost. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister whether his Ministry has any programme to encourage more extensive recycling, so that we can make recycling part and parcel of our daily life.

Sir, my second topic is on vector control. Being in the tropics, it is difficult for us to completely eradicate the problem of mosquitoes. Apart from being a nuisance, mosquitoes also bring deadly diseases like dengue and malaria. Our Ministry of the Environment has been extremely vigilant in keeping vector cases under control. Stringent measures have been taken against those found to be breeding mosquitoes, whether in commercial sites or domestic homes. However, there will always be an outbreak of such cases from time to time and the statistics for these outbreaks fluctuate. I would like to know, apart from the constant inspections and monitoring of the situation, what steps the Ministry of the Environment has taken to further suppress the occurrences of these deadly outbreaks, especially taking a long-term view and not just by stepping up actions whenever there is an outbreak? Is the Ministry satisfied that the frequent checks on households and commercial premises such as construction sites are adequate? Is there a necessity to further enhance the fines for those found to be breeding mosquitoes?

I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister whether the Ministry has unravelled the mystery why the number of dengue cases is higher in the East Coast area. This is where I am staying. And what has been done to rectify this abnormality?

Lastly, there was a recent report on imported malaria cases in Singapore. It was found that India and Indonesia have the highest number of cases, and 70% of those who brought the disease into Singapore are foreigners. Is there any way to minimize these cases being brought into Singapore? And since it did not mention the number of malaria cases originated from Singapore, can the Minister enlighten us on the status of the local malaria cases and how serious it is?

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Sir, first, let me respond to Mr Sinnakaruppan. He has asked us not to take the work of the DREs for granted, to see how we can help them to level up, and to make sure that they are being paid properly. Let me state that we do recognise that the DREs are doing a very essential job, and that both the Government and the public do appreciate them. I am also very glad that NTUC has designated this year as the Environmental Workers' Year.

Sir, most DREs are in low-skilled, low-paying jobs, such as road sweeping, litter picking, but not all. Some of them are in higher-skilled jobs and they are earning over $1,500 a month. The key thing is that the DREs are being paid a salary that is commensurate with the job, and that the salaries are comparable to that paid to similar workers in the private sector.

The civil service has a policy of ensuring that its salaries are competitive and in line with what the market is paying. The key to the DREs is, as what has been pointed out by Mr Sinnakaruppan, to help them upgrade their skills, and this really is no different from workers in other sectors of Singapore. Our policy is skills upgrading, whether they are in the industrial sector, retail sector or in the public sector. With higher skills, they can then move on to higher paying jobs and, therefore, earn more.

Sir, my Ministry has been introducing mechanisation in the public cleansing operations. For example, now the highways, the major roads, are swept not manually but by lorries specially equipped to do mechanised road sweeping. We will look into how to mechanise more activities. And since Mr Sinnakaruppan has offered his services, I will ask my officers to make sure they make full use of his services.

Sir, in line with the need to upgrade their skills, I have asked my Ministry earlier this year, after I visited some of the field officers, to see how we can introduce programmes that can help upgrade the skills level of the DREs. I understand that now we do have some courses, eg, English courses, WISE programme and so on. How do we promote these courses which are available? How do we get more of the DREs to take advantage of the courses that are available?

In this respect, we need to work more closely with the union to not only just publicise the schemes, but to encourage the union members to come forward to enrol themselves and to make the time available so as to take advantage of the schemes that are available.

We also have to prepare the DREs for the future, because with labour shortage, we must mechanise wherever possible. We will have to train them ahead of the needs and, here again, I would like to request Mr Sinnakaruppan to give union support to this skills upgrading programme that we are looking into.

Sir, as he has mentioned, my Ministry and PSD are now negotiating a new collective agreement with the union. There are many points and details to settle, and I would urge the negotiators on both sides to arrive at an outcome that will be satisfactory to all.

Sir, Prof. Low Seow Chay talked about recycling water from our sewage plants, ie, making better use of effluent water. We are currently supplying industrial water to factories in Jurong and Tuas, and this has been done since 1966. The current demand is about 30,000 cubic metres, which is far short of what we are capable of producing. My officers have been aggressively marketing industrial water to companies and we expect that the demand will increase to 100,000 cubic metres by the year 1999. That means we expect to triple the demand because of the aggressive marketing in the last 1-2 years. We expect to further increase that to at least 120,000 cubic metres by the year 2003. That means within a period of about five years, we expect the use of industrial water to quadruple.

We are now extending the existing industrial water supply network to the areas where the customers are and we are also expanding the production capacity to keep pace with the demand.

Sir, in terms of supplying to domestic households, this has also been tried out in the past. We supplied industrial water to the HDB flats in Pandan and Teban Gardens for toilet flushing. Unfortunately, the experience was not very good. We found that the pipes were getting corroded. The toilet bowls were getting stained. Not only that, there was a lot of unpleasant smell throughout the day. I think the residents could not take it after a while, and we had to discontinue the scheme.

The option that we are now exploring is whether it is possible to produce better quality industrial water for toilet flushing. If we can do that, then a lot of these problems that were encountered in the past can be overcome.

Sir, we are also looking at recycling grey water from baths and showers for toilet flushing, washing of corridors, bin centres and rubbish chutes. The question that we are coping with is, first, whether this is technically feasible. Can we collect all the waste water from the baths, showers, wash basins for such use? Secondly, whether the system is still going to be cheaper than the cost of desalinating water. Because that is the marginal cost of water for us in the future. If it is feasible, then we should proceed with it.

Mr Kenneth Chen also talked about recycling and whether we are doing enough recycling, how successful have the programmes been, and what else can we do in the future. Like any other business, recycling of waste must be economically viable. Otherwise, it would not be sustainable in the long run. Also, this effort must be market driven, as there must be demand for the recovered waste. Otherwise, you end up dumping the waste. This is exactly what has happened in some of the projects that we launched. For example, there was an active bottle collection scheme some years back, except the people who were collecting the bottles found that there was no market for the bottles. So the scheme stopped. BP also started a programme of placing recycled green bins in various places. What they found was that instead of throwing the required materials into the specific bins, for example, waste paper in the waste paper bins, they found all kinds of other things in the waste paper bins. Therefore, the karang-guni men could not even use the waste papers. Again the scheme stopped. But we will continue to look for other ways.

We are promoting the setting up of recycling plants by the private sector. Some of those in the pipeline include, for example, plants that can convert marine clay into bricks because there is a lot of marine clay, and not only that, when we go into the deep tunnel sewerage projects, we are going to generate a lot of marine clay. So there is a ready supply of raw materials looking for someone to make better use of, otherwise we have to dump it. There is also a plant that will be using wood waste for power generation. There is also another plant coming up that will recycle scrap tyres. We are assisting in some of these projects by providing land in the Sarimbun recycling park and part of our Lorong Halus dumping ground. We will continue to promote entrepreneurs who wish to set up recycling plants down the road.

On vector control, Mr Kenneth Chen asked what steps we are taking to suppress the outbreak of dengue fever by the Aedes mosquito and whether frequent checks are adequate and whether we need to increase the fines to discourage breeding of mosquitoes. More importantly, why are there more Aedes mosquitoes in the East Coast where he lives? Sir, there are more cases of dengue fever in the eastern part of Singapore simply because the Aedes population there is higher. There are more people breeding Aedes in the east than elsewhere in Singapore. The reason is very simple. The eastern part of Singapore has more landed properties and we are more likely to find Aedes mosquito breeding in landed properties than in the highrise flats.

Sir, we have intensified our surveillance programme on the breeding of Aedes mosquitoes in not just the eastern part of Singapore but throughout the whole of Singapore. The surveillance efforts are important. But as I have stated about three weeks ago, when there was a Question on dengue fever, that public cooperation is very, very important. We will continue to educate the public but we will need to be able to motivate them to translate their awareness of what causes dengue fever into personal actions. This is where Members can also help by conveying this message in their constituency activities.

Sir, on whether increased fines are necessary, we will look into his suggestion.

On malaria, Mr Kenneth Chen also asked how can we minimise the import of malaria cases into Singapore and, secondly, what is the local malaria situation. Sir, all foreign workers who are seeking employment in Singapore are required to undergo health screening and the health screening package includes screening for malaria. That is how we are able to spot the malaria cases before they actually come to work in Singapore.

He has asked about the number of cases in Singapore. Singapore has been declared malaria free by the WHO since 1982. But that does not mean there is no malaria. It means that there are very, very few cases of malaria in Singapore. In 1995, we had one case and 1996 we had three cases, which means that we are malaria free.

The Chairman: Mr Heng, would you like to withdraw your amendment?

Mr Heng Chiang Meng: Sir, I am glad that the Minister agrees with me that we should tap the ET business in the region. I also agree with him that much has been done to attract these ET companies to Singapore. However, the fact that we still lack the breadth and depth shows that we have not done enough. I would like to say, "Look towards the financial centre promotion as an inspiration." We should promote this sector in the same way that we promote the financial centre. With that, I would like to thank both the Minister and the Senior Minister of State for their answers and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

The Chairman: I will allow Mr Sinnakaruppan to make a clarification.

Mr Sinnakaruppan: Thank you, Sir. First, the Minister says that the DRE workers are paid the same market rate as the others in the market. But there is no market because DRE workers clean all the roads in Singapore. So the comparison he is making is with the Town Council cleansing workers who do it not under the sun, but they clean the stairs and so on. It is a different kind of job. So there is no comparison. Secondly, most of these Town Council workers are foreign workers. Even if you pay them $300 or $400, it does not matter to them because they will convert the currency, and it is not the same comparison. He also says that some of these workers are paid $1,400 to $1,500. But the problem is only less than 10% of the workers in ENV are skilled. As I have mentioned, about 80% of them are unskilled and you have to train these workers.

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Sir, whilst the roads are all swept only by the DREs, there are equivalent jobs, such as gardening. Even for the Town Council cleansing operations, not all of them are sweeping stairs. There are big common areas to be swept by the cleansing workers under the sun. By the way, the Ministry of Labour would be very interested to know which Town Council is employing foreign workers illegally.

Sir, the crux of the matter is exactly what has been pointed out by Mr Sinnakaruppan, ie, that the bulk of the DREs are people with very minimal skills and the challenge really is how to upgrade their skills to enable them to earn a higher income. This is what we are doing.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. 2. Mr Goh is not here.

The Chairman: Order. I propose to take the tea break now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 3.45 pm.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 3.23 pm until 3.45 pm. Sitting resumed at 3.45 pm

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head M (cont.) -

The Chairman: Amendment No. (3), Prof. Low is not here. Amendment No. (4), Mr Ang.

Mr Ang Mong Seng (Bukit Gombak): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code MC 2400.

(In Mandarin): Sir, the Minister has already pointed out that since the sale of stalls to hawkers was implemented in 1994 under the Stall Ownership Scheme, about 1,749 stalls have been offered for sale. Of these, 1,641 have already been taken up and the take-up rate is 94%. These stalls were sold at the 1996 price of between $112,000 and $150,000 with a 20-year lease, and loans repayable over 15 years. Each buyer has to make an instalment payment of more than $1,000 per month, and another $250 for property tax. In other words, for the next 15 years, the stallholder will have to spend some $1,300 every month, which is a very heavy commitment indeed. Compared to the present rent of $200-odd a month, the expenses are five times more. This is not very good to those hawkers whose business is not so good. It is a great economic burden and it will also add to their cost of business, which may well be passed on to the end consumers, thus causing inflation.

In the long-term perspective, it will affect the livelihood of the people with adverse effects, particularly the lower income group. So most of the stallholders feel that the HDB and the Ministry of the Environment should take into consideration all these factors which will cause hardship to a lot of people, and extend the lease from 20 years to 30 years. This will enable stallholders who have bought the stalls to have a longer period of repayment, thereby alleviating their financial burden, and at the same time help to stabilize our food prices. This will benefit a lot of people and will also ensure that the Stall Ownership Scheme will get the support of the stallholders, and be better implemented.

Sir, if the authority concerned, having taken these factors into consideration, still feels that 30 years is too long, then perhaps they could consider giving 25 years, without raising the present price level.

At the moment, the HDB has a total of 101 markets and food centres. In addition to those coming under the Ministry of the Environment, we have a total of some 120 hawker centres in Singapore. I think all the hawkers in these hawker centres are eagerly waiting for their stalls to be sold to them. From experience of the past three years, the Government is only offering hawker stalls from five markets or hawker centres for sale every year. As such, we may have to wait for 15 to 20 years for this Stall Ownership Scheme to be completed. In the meantime, because of the restriction imposed on the rental agreement, the stallholders are not allowed to sublet their stalls to other people to operate part of their business hours. However, business hours are very long for the hawkers and it is very difficult now for them to engage assistants and helpers. As a result, many stallholders only operate their business for half a day, leaving the stall empty for the remaining hours of the day. This is not good for the overall atmosphere in the hawker centre and the stallholders cannot provide good services to the customers.

Therefore, I would like to urge the Minister to consider allowing the stallholders to sublet their stalls to others on a part-time basis. There are two benefits to this stall-sharing arrangement. First, there is better use of the space in the stall. It can improve the atmosphere in the hawker centre and provide better services to the public. Secondly, it will also help those people who know how to cook to get a job and earn a living for themselves and their families. I think this is a scheme that can kill two birds with one stone.

Sir, the Ministry of Communications has a share-a-cab scheme which benefits our taxi drivers who, in turn, provide better services to the commuters. This is a very good scheme. I hope that the Minister for the Environment can consider having a "share-a-stall" scheme similar to the very successful "share-a-cab" scheme.

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Sir, Mr Ang Mong Seng has made two proposals. Firstly, to extend the lease period of stalls that are being sold to 30 years and, if not possible, then to 25 years. Secondly, to allow those who are currently enjoying the subsidised rentals to sublet their stalls.

Sir, extension of the lease period, as I have explained just now to Mr Peh, must inevitably result in an increase in the selling price. The property market reflects that very well, and that is why freehold properties are more expensive than leasehold properties. So if you are going to increase the lease period for the stalls that are sold to 25 or 30 years, it must inevitably impact on the selling price. In the end, it gets back to the same problem.

Sir, as I have explained to Mr Peh, the stalls that are being sold are actually very affordable. And that is why there is such a good response to the sale of stalls programme. The other thing is that although the instalments every month are higher than what they are paying now as subsidised rentals, those instalments are still lower than what their counterparts, who have tendered for the stalls or who are renting stalls in coffeeshops or foodcourts, have to pay. The advantage here is that being a stallholder and a stall owner now, he can sublet and employ people to help him, and there are no restrictions. Therefore he is able to operate the stall optimally and reduce his overhead costs. And that is why our surveys have shown that the food prices in the hawker centres that have been sold are comparable to the food prices in the hawker centres that are being rented out at subsidised rentals.

Sir, he has asked whether those who are currently renting at subsidised rates can be allowed to sublet their stalls. Those enjoying subsidised rentals at the present moment are not allowed to sublet. They must personally be present at the stalls when the stalls are being operated. As Mr Ang has pointed out, it limits the number of hours that they can operate the stall.

Sir, since 1992, my Ministry has been tendering out hawker stalls and those successful tenderers are now paying market rates. Their stalls are next to the subsidised stalls and therefore it is not fair to allow those subsidised stalls to operate in the same way as those who have tendered and who are paying market rates.

Sir, we do recognise that consumers will ultimately benefit if all hawker stalls are operated optimally. For this reason, we are now reviewing how we can achieve this.

Mr Ang Mong Seng: ( In Mandarin): Sir, what I am concerned with is the selling price of the stalls. According to the record, in 1994, the lowest price, after discount, was $73,000. In 1995, it was increased to $90,000, and in 1996, it was further increased to $112,000. So I am concerned that the prices are increasing year by year. Those who have yet to buy their stalls face the problem of having to pay higher prices in future. I would like to ask the Minister whether some careful consideration has been given to ensure that the selling prices will not increase year by year, resulting in those who have to buy later, having to pay more for their stalls.

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Sir, the Chief Valuer values the stalls before setting the selling price. The selling price will vary from centre to centre because it depends on the location of the centre as well as the location of the stalls within that particular centre. And I am sure the Chief Valuer will continue to compare the new selling prices with the old prices, as well as to ensure that the new selling prices represent what is a reasonable market value for that particular stall.

Mr Ang Mong Seng: Thank you, Mr Minister, for the reply. I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (5), Mr Goh is not here. Amendment No. (6), Dr Wan.

Dr Wan Soon Bee (West Coast): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code MF 2100.

Sir, the issue I am going to raise is of public interest. Singapore is a city-state and is densely populated. I am therefore very concerned with the dangers posed especially on the storage and disposal of hazardous chemicals and industrial waste. When there is any industrial accident or mishap, it can lead to very serious damage to life, property and the environment.

In view of the recent fire in Chem-Solv Technologies Pte Ltd, I would like to know whether the regulations on the storage and disposal of these hazardous substances are adequate. We are very fortunate that in the Chem-Solv fire, no lives were lost. But I am very worried about the long term impact on our environment. Having all the rules and regulations may not be sufficient. We need to have a good monitoring system. We must have an effective control system to ensure that the operators abide strictly by the rules and regulations and that there is no abuse.

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Sir, I agree with Dr Wan that we need to ensure that stringent conditions are imposed on those who are handling toxic materials and hazardous wastes because if any accident happens, there is a tremendous threat to both life, property and the environment.

Sir, it is for this reason that the Environment Ministry has stringent requirements to ensure that all hazardous substances are properly stored and used and that the wastes generated can be safely managed and disposed of. And it is perhaps because we have all these stringent requirements in place that when the Chem-Solv fire broke out, no lives were lost.

Sir, let me give some examples of some of the requirements that we have imposed to ensure that hazardous materials are handled properly in Singapore and do not pose a threat to Singaporeans. Firstly, when companies apply for permission to establish operations in Singapore, whether as manufacturing operations or as recycling plants or as storage facilities, they require a licence from my Ministry to store, handle and use such hazardous materials. In processing the applications, my Ministry will then require the companies to incorporate preventive measures in the design and operation of their facilities. This is to ensure that, firstly, should any accident happen, such hazardous materials are not released into the atmosphere or pose a threat to people. 4.00 pm

Sir, they are also required to have stringent safeguards to ensure that they do not discharge these hazardous materials into either our sewers or the public drainage system. In fact, we require factories to install automated monitoring equipment that monitor the quality of the discharge into the sewers. Should the discharge exceed what we have allowed them, there is an automated shut-off device that will shut the access into the sewers and the company will have to call the Ministry of the Environment to get our officers to go into the premises to open up that access into the sewer. When that happens, not only will we open up the access for them, but we will also impose penalties on them. We do have very stringent requirements on both the usage as well as the storage of hazardous materials.

Dr Wan Soon Bee: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $338,337,800 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $598,708,900 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head J -

The Chairman: Head J - Ministry of Community Development. Amendment No. (1), Dr Vasoo.

Dr S. Vasoo (Tanjong Pagar): Sir, it is already the fifth day that we are entering into this debate and I am sure Members are still fresh to bring up new ideas and points. Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head J of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, my GPC members and I will be touching on some areas of concern related to the poor and the problems arising out of affluence. These are two important areas which any society has got to deal with. The poor and the less fortunate will still be with us. There are new issues and problems that we have to confront with because of the changing demography, changing family patterns and changing family dynamics. We will continue to persuade the Government and the community to give the necessary support to enable the less well-off to achieve their best. Sir, the hallmark of a civil society is that those who have must lend support to help those who are less well-off. In this way, we are able to promote the overall well-being of the community.

Sir, a major issue that I would like to take up is on children and young persons. There is a growing public concern about the problems of young gangs and juvenile delinquency. Much has been debated on this issue and various reports have been made public, and I would not like to dwell further into this area except to highlight that it has become a community concern.

There is a need for us not just to prescribe remedy and solutions to these problems but to understand what are some of the factors contributing to this issue that we have been concerned about. There is a need to make a more comprehensive study of the problems so that we can understand and appreciate the various factors that precipitate big problems for children and young persons. It is only when we understand and appreciate these problems that we will be able to take various preventive and remedial actions to deal with them and therefore as we go along reduce some of the problems faced by children and young persons.

In this connection, I gather that the Children and Young Persons Act requires to be strengthened. Sir, at present, the Act is rather limited. A few options are available to tackle the problem. What I would like to ask the Minister is what steps are being taken to revise the Act so that the various provisions of the Act can be strengthened to deal with these new issues and problems.

Dr Tan Boon Wan (Ang Mo Kio): Sir, thank you very much for allowing me to join in this debate. I am going to add to what Dr Vasoo has said but more on the practical issue.

Youth is a time in life when the need to seek out and relate to others is strong. Hence, it is also a time when our young are most susceptible to outside influence. Things begin to go wrong when the influence is bad. In recent days, the House has heard and discussed with concern the bad influence on our problem youths. We hear that afternoon tea dances are recruitment grounds for gangs, adding yet one more public place to the shopping malls, game arcades and night spots where youths congregate and get into mischief. We cannot stop youths from wanting to get together. It is a natural social drive. However, we can reduce the undesirable consequences by encouraging our youths to mix with wholesome company in wholesome activities at wholesome places. The key is to create wholesome meeting places.

During the debate on the Presidential Address earlier in the year, I have pleaded for the setting up of youth centres. I have looked through the budget for the Ministry of Community Development and I am happy to see money being set aside to cater to young children and senior citizens. I am, however, disappointed to see no specific provision for our youths. I strongly feel that we should be doing more for our youths. If we were to argue that their needs are already met through existing services and facilities, I think it is a weak excuse in view of our growing youth problems. PA has the Youth Executive Committees which operate from CCs as a sub-group of the CCMC. But community centres serve very broad public interest. I do not think youths identify CCs as their centres. There are Boys' Clubs but these are too few, catering only to boys and have inherited the image of serving wayward youths.

Without proper and decent places to go and activities to do, our socially oriented youths are now attracted to the shopping centres, arcades and night spots. They then reinforce one another that there is nothing else or important to do but to hang around. They are oblivious of others who are working hard, doing well and moving ahead. Youth centres will allow the whole wide spectrum of our youths to congregate and interact. The studious ones will develop the necessary social skills, while the playful ones will be motivated and encouraged to study and undertake desirable activities. There will be wholesome activities, like games, sports, computing to participate in. On weekends, the club can even hold their own tea dances.

It is an established truth that prevention is better than cure. It is better for us to be proactive. It will cost us less to prevent our youths from going down the wrong path than to rehabilitate them after they had gone wrong. I therefore urge the Government to provide more funds for our youths. To emphasise that we recognise them in their needs uniquely, these funds should be provided under its own separate heading or code in the Budget. This will send a clear signal to our youths that we recognise them on their own rights.

Dr Vasoo: Sir, of late, there have been some highlights on the question of child abuse. Child abuse is a recurring problem in our society. Every abused child who goes undetected for protection adds a social scar to our community. The Committee of Inquiry on Child Abuse had suggested a number of measures to be implemented to deal with child abuse cases effectively through the joint efforts of the various Ministries, like the Ministry of Health, Ministry of Home Affairs and the Ministry of Community Development.

Sir, I would like to find out from the Ministry what progress has been made in the implementation of the recommendations of the Committee on Inquiry on Child Abuse because various suggestions have been made to various Ministries on how they could strengthen their coordination work, the early detection of child abuse and the follow-up on such cases identified to have been abused. So it is relevant to find out from the Ministry what steps have been taken to implement the various recommendations that have been suggested.

The Chairman: Dr Vasoo, do you want to move on to your next topic?

Dr Vasoo: Yes. Sir, the next area which I would like to cover is an area of significance and it needs to be highlighted. This is in relation to manpower and salaries. We cannot afford to neglect the salaries and service conditions of the personnel involved in the social and community service field. We need at the same time to attract and retain more competent personnel in this sector.

Sir, most of the time, this sector appears to be neglected because we tend to pay more attention to sectors which are productive and contributing to the economy. But I feel that this sector needs the attention of the Government itself because there are a lot of people who are committed to this sector, particularly, in the area of social defence. If social defence is considered to be an important aspect of our Total Defence concept and plan, then we must take action to recognise the efforts of the many social and community service personnel and revise their salaries and service conditions. They are not getting the best deal. In tandem with the various actions and recommendations that have been taken by the police, the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Education, it is indeed timely for the Ministry to see whether it can placate the Ministry of Finance to review their salaries and service conditions. But the Ministry should in fact have more muscles to take its course of action and make their suggestions or recommendations heard.

Sir, I would like to ask the Minister what plans are being taken to improve the salaries and service conditions of the said personnel who are large in number and we are in fact talking about the Community Development Councils and the various promotion activities to strengthen the work of the various grassroots organisations. In this connection, it is timely that we should not forget the many people who have committed their life in the service to this sector.

Dr Teo Ho Pin (Sembawang): Sir, over the last 37 years, the People's Association (PA) has done an excellent job in promoting social, cultural, educational, sports and recreational activities for all Singaporeans. Community clubs have evolved to be active and established "social centres" for many Singaporeans, especially those living in HDB estates.

As we move into the next millennium, community clubs will have to shoulder more responsibility in facilitating community bonding among Singaporeans. The rising expectations and aspirations of Singaporeans will also pose exciting challenges to the management and staff of community clubs.

To cope with these challenges, we need to provide more trained manpower and resources to manage community clubs. There is a need to review the manpower and salary policy of the People's Association so as to upgrade existing staff and attract better qualified staff for community clubs. 4.15 pm

Sir, I would like to ask the Minister the following questions: (1) Can the Ministry consider providing more funding for the building of new CC, upgrading of old CCs and more grants for CC activities?

(2) Can the Ministry consider allocating more manpower, especially specialists in public relations, culture and arts, and sports at community clubs?

(3) Can the Ministry consider revising the salary structure of the staff, which should be commensurate with their loyalty, performance, scope of work and the performance of the community clubs? Can the Ministry consider providing a loyalty allowance for staff who have served for more than 10 years?

Dr Vasoo: Sir, more and more voluntary organisations are encouraged and cajoled to take on more services to meet community needs and to assist the less fortunate in our community. Much has been said that we need to encourage them. The social health of most communities is judged by the fact that there are more and more involvement of volunteers and voluntary organisations in our society. But just to pay lip service to encourage them is not sufficient, Sir. I am sure the Ministry is not doing that. The Ministry is doing the best it can to support various voluntary efforts and voluntary organisations in meeting various gaps in terms of services for the community.

In fact, more services have been divested over the years to these voluntary organisations. And voluntary organisations have been encouraged to take more responsibilities, to develop more service, to pioneer into new areas which are of concern and new issues that have been identified by the community. This is a good thing, but it cannot be for free, because the impression that people have is that voluntary organisations are charitable. In fact, they are charitable, but I think they are expected to be more charitable than necessary.

I think there is a social cost. There is a cost in managing these services. The question is: who is to bear the cost? Here, the community, in fact, is contributing to this cost through donations, through various other things. They do also expect the Government to do its part.

Currently, Sir, the 50-50 contribution or the grant formula, as I see it, is not adequate and could be increased further. May I suggest that instead of this 50-50 formula, it may be more equitable to give them two-thirds support in terms of the grant. And this would, in the longer term, reduce the burden of fund raising. Organisations would have more time to direct their efforts in providing services to the community, and they will become more viable with this support. Such a revision will enhance the growth of more voluntary efforts in the community. And more organisations can be inspired to think of how they can contribute to community development.

Sir, what I would like to ask is whether the Ministry would be considering a revision in terms of more financial grants for the voluntary organisations.

Mr Hawazi Daipi (Sembawang): Sir, the Government encourages children to take care of, and preferably live with, their aged parents. That should be the case. However, we should not look down upon children who cannot look after their frail aged parents, particularly those with parents who need specialised assistance. Sir, I am talking about our senior citizens who are suffering from certain illnesses for which their family members have no knowledge or ability to care for, eg, those who suffer from Alzheimer disease. Such senior citizens need specialised care which their family members cannot provide at home. The family members, who have their own young children to care for, may not be in the best position to take care of their frail aged parents, even if they want to. Coupled with the need to encourage young women to work, it is important that they have a place to send their aged parents during the day when they go out to work.

This encouragement can come in the form of subsidy for aged parents sent to day-care centres for elderly persons. This subsidy for them can be similar to that given to working women who send their children to child care centres. Sir, there is a need to study this problem now as the Singapore population is fast greying.

We should encourage more organisations to set up services for such groups of senior citizens. In this respect, the Ministry should set out guidelines that can help these care givers to function effectively. However, the guidelines must not stifle their productivity and effectiveness. For example, the Ministry should not specify how many carers there must be in day care centres for the elderly, as is also the case for child care centres, so that the management of these elderly care centres can come up with productivity measures and control cost of their services. If the Ministry continues to set the carer-patients/children ratio, the cost of running such centres will inevitably go up with annual wage increases. Instead, the Ministry should set a standard of service which must be met by the care givers.

The Chairman: Prof. Low Seow Chay, Mr Choo Wee Khiang, Mr Zainul Abidin and Mr Shanmugam are not here. Dr Yaacob.

Dr Yaacob Ibrahim (Jalan Besar): Sir, the Prime Minister said that "affluence and prosperity cannot be the only glue holding us together" when he posed the question of what will hold Singaporeans here during the debate on the President's Address. The Prime Minister felt that in order to keep Singaporeans together, we have to go beyond more material comforts, and he declared that "deepening our sense of belonging will be a priority in this term of my Government". It is this sense of belonging which will determine how this country will react in times of crisis and not peace. Do we join hands and close ranks when the situation changes or do we become like "migratory birds, seeking their fortunes in other lands when the season changes", as again reflected by the Prime Minister?

Sir, at the heart of this sense of belonging is how far the different races in Singapore see themselves as more than just Chinese, Malays or Indians. I suppose one might feel that race is a non-issue in Singapore. After all, Singaporeans of all races go through similar experiences. We go through the same schooling system. Many of us live side by side in HDB flats. Most male Singaporeans go through National Service. Many would queue up for long hours just to be part of our National Day celebrations, and many of us here have been in this country for a very long time. So what is the problem?

We know that race can be divisive. Just look at Bosnia, Rwanda and many other more recent conflicts. The question before us is a very simple one: because race can be divisive, do we then highlight the differences or the commonalities among the different races in Singapore? I believe the answer is obvious. Many of our Ministers have spoken in the past about finding more common ground among the different races. But this is not to be done at the expense of the different races preserving their heritage. This approach could be described as an attempt to find the Singaporean in us.

Ours is a multi-cultural society. In everyone of us here is a little bit of Chinese, Malay, Indian, Arab, Pakistani and others. It is inevitable. At the core, we remain true to our ethnic origin. But at the periphery, we take on different forms, we borrow from others, we adapt to other ways. Every time I stand in line at the engineering canteen at NUS, I notice Chinese students ahead of me adding a dash or more of chilli to their mee rebus or tahu goreng. And they invariably are either Singaporean or Malaysian. I was surprised, in fact, the other day to notice a PRC graduate student doing exactly the same thing. She told me she tried the chilli after being prompted by her Singaporean colleagues and got hooked on it since then! These are the facts of life in Singapore.

Sir, my point is that I believe there is a need for us to showcase what is indeed truly Singaporean. The PA has done a fantastic job in preserving and showcasing the ethnic cultures. They should continue to do so. But I believe more should be done to highlight the similarities. Minister George Yeo has also underscored the need for TV8 to be more national and to reflect more of Singapore's reality in its television programmes. I believe that in highlighting the similarities and the contributions made by every Singaporean, we would go a longer way to bolstering a sense of being Singaporean than any amount of campaigning.

Sir, an attempt to highlight differences among the races can lead to highlighting differences in the contributions each group has made to this country. How can one group of people feel for this country if they are told that their role is insignificant in comparison to other groups? Everyone has a role to play, which can be different. Everyone contributes in his or her own way. The CEO of a multi-national is as important as a primary school teacher. They both contribute to the economic competitiveness of our country. And Mr Sinnakaruppan who spoke passionately about daily-rated workers, they too have a role to play in this country. Our country needs engineers and scientists. But we also need our musicians, painters, artists, writers, sculptors, and many others. Each has a role to play, each contributes his share to the development of his country. In a similar vein, every race has a role to play and contribute to this nation of ours. Only when we treat people in a way that shows that we recognise that they have a role to play in Singapore can we confidently expect people to defend this country.

Sir, I would therefore urge the Ministry to consider running more programmes which can bring different groups together.

Sir, the Inter-Ministry Committee on Dysfunctional Family, Juvenile Delinquency and Drug Abuse was formed in October 1994. A report was submitted to Cabinet which was subsequently approved in October 1995. The objective of the IMC was to recommend solutions so that the problems of families in distress, wayward juveniles and drug abuse can be arrested. The Committee took a total approach to the problem and recommended measures to strengthen families, detect families at risk, provide adequate family service centres and assist families through the creation of Before-and-After-School-Care (BASC) programmes.

Sir, many of the issues raised lately with respect to juvenile delinquency were discussed and debated at the IMC. In fact, several key suggestions were made to help address the juvenile delinquency problem. I believe many Members of this House are concerned about this problem, including my GPC Chairman, Dr Vasoo. The recent move by MHA to restrict teenagers below 16 from attending tea dances outlet drew, in fact, an animated discussion in this House. Given the current situation, I am concerned whether the suggestions or recommendations made by the IMC have been put into place quickly enough. Perhaps the Minister may want to inform the House on the progress made and what, if any, are the factors which may hinder the implementation of any of the recommendations.

The Minister for Community Development (Mr Abdullah Tarmugi): Sir, first, I would like to thank Members for their views, comments and concerns. I am really touched by the passion with which they spoke about the old, the young and also the family. I am also encouraged by the calls for more help for the voluntary welfare organisations, because these are the organisations which provide very useful work and help to the Ministry. I would like to take this opportunity to record my appreciation and thanks to these voluntary welfare organisations for all their help and the work that they have done. They have certainly helped the Ministry achieve its various objectives.

Sir, various Members have spoken about the importance of prevention instead of just trying to tackle the symptoms of our social problems. I cannot agree with them more. In fact, the Inter-Ministry Committee, which I chaired, stressed the importance of preventive measures in trying to tackle our social problems. But programmes, whether they are preventive, rehabilitative or whatever, done either by the VWOs or by the Government, can only complement and supplement what the family can do. The bottom line is that the family must be the start of preventive measures.

Families need attention. They need nurturing, they need strengthening. We work hard for our daily living, to improve the living condition of our families. But I think we should work equally hard to improve the relationships between members of the family. Perhaps we have to think whether we could forgo that golf game, forgo that night out with the boys, or even the mahjong game with our friends, to be with the family and to pay attention to the family. Sometimes we take our family for granted. Then, if something goes wrong, we ask ourselves, what went wrong when in fact the problem lies in the family itself. With that as a preamble, I would like now to address the various issues raised by Members. 4.30 pm

Dr Vasoo raised the issue of whether there was a need to amend the Children and Young Persons Act in view of the various problems such as juvenile delinquency and problem youths that are increasing nowadays.

The Government, Sir, adopts a multi-pronged and multi-disciplinary approach to address the problems of juvenile delinquency. This also includes legislation. The Ministry is right now reviewing the Children and Young Persons Act (CYP). This is actually in response to the recommendation by the Inter-Ministry Committee (IMC). The IMC recommended that the Children and Young Persons Act ought to be amended so that we could better tackle the problems of juvenile delinquency in our midst.

We are looking into several things in the CYP. I will not go into the details of every provision that we are going into. But let me give Members the main provisions. One area which we are considering to amend is to provide for new sentencing options in the courts for the treatment of juvenile delinquents and also for those who are beyond parental control. We are thinking about weekend detention, for example. We are thinking of periodic training, community service and also family conferencing. That is one part. The other part we are thinking of is to include families in the rehabilitation of their children. We would be stressing on parental involvement. We want to require parents to participate and cooperate in the rehabilitation programme of their children as well as in the assessment of their children.

If I can elaborate a little bit on the new sentencing options. As I mentioned earlier, we are thinking of family conferencing. This is an option which allows the court to bring together people affected by the juvenile's offending behaviour before the court decides what the sentence would be. In other words, they would discuss the reparation, and how the offender atones for what he has done to the victim. It could comprise an apology or even some kind of payment.

The other one is the community service order which is something we have been thinking about for some time and it is something which has been suggested by members of the public. This involves the juvenile delinquent performing some kind of public service or community service to make reparation for his or her offence.

We are also thinking of a weekend detention or periodic detention order. These are options which will enable the court to allow juveniles who have committed a crime or a fairly serious offence but whose academic record or family background is quite satisfactory in the sense that they could still carry on with their education because they may be good in their education, but something has to be done for them to pay for their crime. So during the weekends, they could participate in some kind of structured rehabilitation programme before they go back to their homes during the week days.

We are also thinking of probation with detention. This would enable the court to require the probationers to be detained at the centre for a short time to undergo what we call a "short, sharp and shock" treatment, which would benefit some offenders.

We are also thinking of the courts' powers to extend an existing order. In other words, an order has been given by the court towards a juvenile offender. We are thinking of trying to extend the detention in cases where the court deems fit for the juvenile to be again put aside from society for the time being.

These are the areas which we are looking into on the CYP and we hope that the greater sentencing options and also the greater ability of the courts to be able to handle juvenile cases would hopefully reduce the number of juvenile delinquents.

Dr Vasoo also asked about the management of child abuse. Specifically he referred to the Committee of Inquiry (COI) on Child Abuse, which I set up earlier in the year. The House may wish to know that the COI was an administrative arrangement directed by me to objectively assess the management of child abuse, and review the protocols not only of MCD but also of the Ministry of Health, the Police and the hospitals because they are the ones who are also involved in the management of child abuse.

The COI made recommendations in nine broad areas which deal mainly with the systems and procedures of how these various agencies handle child abuse. The nine areas touched upon are: training of MCD officers, the Police and medical staff; assignment of staff in handling child abuse cases; supervision of child abuse cases; procedures and protocols of the relevant authorities; preparation of medical reports by doctors; inter-agency coordination and consultation; establishment of a child abuse register; the role of officials in the different authorities and agencies, such as the role of the Police and the Child Welfare Officers, and they are also thinking of the powers to be given to the hospitals.

The Ministries involved, namely, my Ministry, the Ministry of Home Affairs, specifically the Police, and also the Ministry of Health, specifically again the hospitals, are now in the process of finalising the review of their respective protocols and procedures.

An Inter-Ministry Working Group chaired by my Permanent Secretary is overseeing and monitoring the review work done by these various Ministries. Mainly, they want to address the gaps that may exist in the existing protocols and mechanisms. They also want to ensure better coordination among the various Ministries which means, therefore, that they have to come together more frequently, discuss more frequently and not simply each agency doing its own work separately.

We are also putting in place multi-Ministry and multi-disciplinary mechanisms at different levels. An example would be what we call the Child Abuse Team (CAT), which was set up in MCD in April last year. This team reviews and assesses all cases of child abuse brought to the attention of MCD. In this team, we involve psychologists, the police, the social welfare workers and experts whose input we feel could help in the handling of the child abuse cases before them

Sir, child abuse is a very difficult problem. It is a very multi-faceted problem, which therefore needs a multi-disciplinary approach from all concerned. It cannot be dealt with by a single Ministry because it involves the family, emotions and sometimes injuries which the hospital may have to come into play. As I said earlier, the work of the COI has been completed and the Ministries are in the process of reviewing their protocols. Hopefully by the end of this year or by early next year, the improved protocols and mechanisms would have been put in place, and therefore we would be in a position to manage child abuse better.

Before I give too much hope, child abuse is something which I do not think we can eliminate altogether in our society. Although we can improve procedures, protocols and coordination, I hope Members would not expect that child abuse would be totally eliminated from society. But certainly, I think with these mechanisms in place, the management of child abuse would be improved and hopefully in turn reduce the number of child abuse in our community.

Dr Vasoo also raised the question of manpower and salaries of social workers. I cannot agree with him more, Sir, about the need for social workers nowadays. What with the increase of crimes and problems and what with the increasing number of the aged among us, certainly we do need a lot more institutions and a lot more services to handle these problems. Also, due to the increased affluence of our community, people are more aware that such things ought to be tackled and looked into. I do agree with him, and I support his feeling, that we ought to have more social workers, especially properly qualified ones.

The demand for social workers would increase and the need is especially great for trained social workers. We need, for example, Sir, about 50 new social work graduates each year for the next three years. We have asked the Social Work and Psychology Department of the NUS, which Dr Vasoo heads, to increase the intake of social work students. Happily, he had responded. Even then, Sir, the number is not enough and we intend to ask the Department to further increase the number of social work graduates that it can produce.

The problem about social workers is this: many of them, after having graduated from the National University of Singapore or wherever, with a Social Work degree, do not end up as social workers. This is because of various reasons, for example, better pay, better prospects elsewhere. They are being snapped up by firms like PR and consultant firms. So there is a lot of leakage from the social workers' pool that we have.

I do agree with the Member that we should improve the service conditions of social workers and also their salaries. In this regard, the Member may be pleased to know that my Ministry would be looking into this problem specifically and also how we could improve the service conditions and the pay structure of the social workers. We hope to work with the Public Service Division on this and we hope that the hon. Member for Tanjong Pagar would support us in our cause and give whatever ideas or inputs that he has on the problem. 4.45 pm

Dr Vasoo also asked about the efforts to increase the Government funding for voluntary welfare organisations. He was wondering whether the 50-50 Government funding or formula could be increased to about two-thirds. Sir, Members may not realise it, but the Government has indeed been increasing the funding for voluntary welfare organisations. If you remember, in 1991, the capital grant for VWOs was increased from 50% to 80%. Last year, it was increased further from 80% to 90%. In fact, VWOs now pay only 10% of the capital cost of whatever they want to develop.

Government will also always be looking into ways of how to help voluntary welfare organisations not only in funding but also in terms of training, getting premises for them, consultation, and whatever. But certainly we would look into how we could further alleviate their funding burdens by looking into the kind of funding system that we could put into place.

My Ministry will be doing a review of the approach to the allocation of projects and also the allocation of funds to VWOs. We will review the current funding arrangements, including recurrent funding of VWOs.

The House may also wish to know that quite apart from the 50-50 recurrent funding that we have for VWOs, we also have other kinds of funding arrangements. For example, we have per capita funding and programme funding. In per capita funding, it is almost 100%, in a sense that it depends on the number of cases which the VWO is handling, and for each case we pay the cost which the organisation has to handle. In programme funding, it is 100%. But these are usually for programmes which the Government devolves to the community. For example, old age homes, we have just devolved one to be run by a Methodist Group just this weekend.

I am also happy to announce that the Government will be extending financial assistance to several new and existing programmes. For example, we would be providing funds for recurrent expenditure to crisis centres because these centres were not previously funded by Government. So we will now fund crisis centres. This would actually come into effect immediately, in July. Crisis shelters are those residential facilities set up to help individuals and families in distress or abused.

My Ministry will also be providing full programme funding to seven voluntary agencies which will be working with the Police, MCD and Ministry of Education in the implementation of the Police Caution Cases Guidance Programme for juvenile offenders. This would also help tackle the juvenile delinquency problem in our community.

MCD will also provide full per capita grant to identified voluntary organisations that will be providing counselling and rehabilitation programmes for family violence cases referred to by the court for mandatory counselling.

So, quite apart from the funding to these organisations, the Ministry will also be funding several courses and workshops for frontline social workers in the voluntary sector, namely, in the area of family violence and child abuse, something which I think is very close to Dr Vasoo's heart.

We will continue to look into how we could help our VWOs to do their work more effectively and we are very cognisant of the problems that they have to face almost every day in trying to raise funds, and from the same pool of donors.

If I can go on next to Mr Hawazi's question. He asked what kind of help the Ministry could give to families with frail or aged parents. He was suggesting that the subsidies for day care centres for the aged should perhaps be similar to those given to child care centres. Subsidies to child care centres are given to those children of working mothers. Working mothers are given $150 subsidy or $75 if it is a part-time child care centre.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

4.51 pm

The Minister for Community Development (Mr Abdullah Tarmugi): But day care centres are run by voluntary welfare organisations. They receive recurrent Government funding. This is to enable them to ensure that their programmes are affordable and families are encouraged to use the centres. Many of these are non-profit organisations and non-profit centres, and they do in fact further subsidise families or the aged who could not afford to go to these centres. So there is already a mechanism to help families of the frail or aged.

But child care centres are a different proposition altogether because they are really more like commercial ventures. They do not receive recurrent funding by the Government. The objective of child care centres is actually different: they are to encourage mothers to go to work. Working mothers who have children with perhaps nobody else to look after could put their children in the child care centres so that they can go to work. So the objective of the child care centres is different from the day care centres for the aged which Mr Hawazi mentioned.

Mr Hawazi felt that for MCD to specify the staff-patient ratio is hindering the running of day care centres for the elderly. It is not the intention of MCD to stifle the productivity or ideas for these centres to be more effective or to run their programmes more efficiently. But we have to set standards, and if you set standards, you therefore have to set the level of care that we have to put in place to achieve these standards. We have to specify the facilities that are to be provided, the size, the space that will be needed, the kind of programmes, and the kind of staff that would be required to be employed.

So it is not the intention of MCD to prevent the centres from putting into effect their own ideas. If indeed these centres have ideas which are better than MCD's, and which are more productive and efficient, certainly my Ministry would like to hear them, and if they can be implemented, certainly we would implement them. But, for the time being, I think the minimum standards will stay and the staff-client ratio will have to stay. Anyway these are really minimum standards. If the centres feel that they want to have higher standards, they want to provide better care and they want to have a higher staff ratio to look after the elderly, certainly they can. In fact, there are many centres who think that they can provide better quality service. They, in fact, engage more people to look after the aged.

But having said all that, if the Member has got centres which have ideas which will increase productivity, reduce manpower, certainly my Ministry would like to hear from them. Indeed, not only my Ministry but I think the whole Government would like to hear ideas which will reduce manpower and yet increase productivity.

Lastly, Sir, I would like to address the views of Dr Yaacob. Dr Yaacob asked about the progress of the Inter-Ministry Committee (IMC) on Dysfunctional Families, Juvenile Delinquency and Drug Abuse which I chaired. I am glad to report that there has been progress in implementing the recommendations of the IMC. There is a committee, as I have mentioned earlier, chaired by my Permanent Secretary, to monitor the implementation of the various recommendations of the IMC, for example, the Before and After School Cares (BASCs). If you remember, the BASCs and Family Service Centres (FSCs) are some of the main recommendations of the IMC.

Since November 1996, we have been co-financing the BASC. To-date, there are 67 non-profit BASCs catering to about 4,400 children. Apart from this, there are also about 30 private centres. My Ministry will be working with voluntary welfare organisations who are interested in setting up BASCs because we will require many, many more BASCs in future. So if the VWOs are interested in setting up BASCs, these VWOs or schools could certainly come to us and we will assist them in any way we can.

Then there are the Family Service Centres (FSCs). There are now 21 FSCs run by the various VWOs and we hope to have 34 by the end of the century. Government has also increased the recurrent funding for FSCs. In addition, we have also funded the training programmes for social workers who are working in FSCs to enhance their skills, especially when they have to work with families with a range of problems.

Then there is the programme for low income families. To help low income families to tide over their financial problems, my Ministry is exploring into how we could extend help to needy families in purchased flats, with their conservancy and utilities charges. Children from low income families attending child care centres will also receive financial help to pay the deposit and fees for these child care centres.

To better reach the lower-educated who cannot read the various publications that we have, we will also be conducting programmes to reach out to them and to acquaint them and make them aware of the various help that exists in the community.

We also have an early detection project. The early detection programme helps families and individuals to nip in the bud social problems that may arise. We have formulated and disseminated a checklist of early detection and referral to grassroots organisations and schools and also the child care centres to help them refer families needing help to social service agencies. Members may be interested to know that the Ministry of Education has also started to encourage schools to use an early detection checklist to identify high-risk students. Indeed, MOE has institutionalised the position of counsellors in schools to provide guidance to students.

We also have help for juvenile delinquents. To encourage and facilitate better coordination and networking amongst the various agencies working with youths, we have the National Youth Council to produce what we call a networking guide. This will provide information on the various roles and connections that there are between schools, VWOs, the Police and the courts, and MCD, in identifying and helping delinquent youths.

We are also increasing the public education on family life and my Ministry is coordinating that. We will be going into family values, pre-marital counselling, the kinds of services that are available on parenting courses, marriage preparation and so on.

5.00 pm

If you remember also, in the IMC, we recommended that a research be carried out on families. I am happy to report that MCD has commissioned a national study on families in Singapore to collect data on the condition of families here so that we would be better able to work out programmes for families.

In fact, Sir, almost all the recommendations have been implemented except two, that is, the establishment of stand-alone drop-in or recovery centres for the after-care of recovering addicts, and the setting up of a Juvenile Drug Rehabilitation Centre. We have more or less jettisoned or put these programmes on hold simply because the numbers are really small. So it would not really be cost effective for us to set up a separate drug rehabilitation institution for juvenile drug addicts. As for drop-in centres, instead of building new ones, we would rather that the existing half-way houses put aside an area for such drop-in facilities to be set up.

I think I have replied to most of the Members. The questions on the People's Association will be answered by Mr Wong Kan Seng and my Parliamentary Secretary, Mr Chan Soo Sen.

The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Sir, three of my Parliamentary colleagues brought up questions concerning the PA and I, as Deputy Chairman, will answer Dr Teo Ho Pin, and Mr Chan Soo Sen will deal with the questions by Dr Yaacob and Dr Tan Boon Wan.

Dr Teo raised four questions concerning PA and he also praised the PA staff for the hard work that they have put in and their dedication and commitment. I would like to thank Dr Teo for the appreciation that he has shown to PA staff for their dedication and also his concern for their welfare. I want to assure Dr Teo that the PA takes good care of its staff.

On the question of more manpower for the CCs, PA has community clubs of various sizes. There are community centres and community clubs. There are void deck community centres and big modern community centres and clubs. Altogether, we have 112 of these, of which 85 are modern CCs. The rest are the void deck type or the shop unit type. So the staffing norms for these CCs will vary from three to five staff members in each CC. So far, we find that the staffing norms are adequate for the big community clubs. The duties of the staff are rostered such that more staff are deployed during the peak hours and, taking into account normal vacation leave, sick leave and training times, and so on, there are at least three staff on duty during the peak hours. But the PA will review the staffing norms from time to time for all the community centres and clubs, especially the new generation of community clubs which are co-located with other compatible users. The PA may deploy more staff to such bigger community clubs.

Dr Teo has suggested that PA recruit people who are specially trained or talented in the arts, sports, culture, recreation and who are good public communicators or good in PR to help our community centres or clubs do their work. May I say that there are actually not many such people around in Singapore who are specially trained in the arts, culture, sports, recreation, PR or communications. People with such experiences and training are also wanted by other organisations, such as the National Arts Council, Singapore Sports Council, other Government agencies and even private sector companies. So we have to compete with all these organisations to recruit these talented people. Meanwhile, some of the staff are trained in PR, communications and other areas of specialisation which are required in a specific area of work. Apart from that, the PA has also employed about 600 part-time staff who are specially good at certain things, such as teaching music, dances, other cultural activities and who are good at certain educational activities, such as sports or recreational courses, choral singing, language, and so on. We will continue to do more of that.

Regarding Dr Teo's suggestion on revising the salary structure, let me say that PA's salaries are comparable to those in the civil service because we peg our salary scheme to those in the civil service. So when the civil service changes its salary scheme, we will change along with it. Apart from that, the PA also provides other incentives to recruit, retain and reward good officers. These include regular promotion exercises for all PA officers and special monthly allowances ranging from $450, $350 and $250 for Division I, II and III field officers respectively, and that is quite a significant percentage of their take-home pay.

I do not think there is a need to pay them any special "loyalty allowances" because the PA already has schemes to reward long service officers. For example, we give them Long Service Awards. Of course, some may say what is a piece of paper. But in addition to the Long Service Award certificates, we also give them cash awards which range from $150 to $1,200. In addition to that, they also get free use of PA holiday facilities plus paid vacation leave. I think that is pretty good. Those with long service continue to get annual increments until they reach the maximum of their salary scale. So officers are paid loyalty allowances in the sense that they get salary increments. If they can perform a higher level of duties, we will promote them. We also award scholarships for part-time postgraduate courses and undergraduate programmes. There are also generous grants for scholarships or bursaries for the children of these staff members.

The PA is embarking on a job evaluation exercise to determine the relative value of jobs within the PA and review the salaries accordingly and, if there is a need, we will adjust them. In addition, the PA Staff Club is also very generous to all PA staff who are automatically members of the staff club. Nevertheless, we will consider new approaches to recruit, retain and deploy the scarce manpower more effectively. For example, the PA will have to consider how to respond to the shrinking pool of O' level school leavers and A' level students because, now, 60% of our school leavers will go to the university or polytechnic. So if the PA wants to recruit these people, then the jobs must change and be enlarged, and the rewards must be given accordingly.

The various grassroots organisations under the PA, such as the CCC, CCMC, RC and other Committees like the Senior Citizens' Executive Committee (SCEC), the Women's Executive Committee, the Youth Executive Committee, were established at different times. For example, the PA was established in 1960, the CCMCs in 1964. In 1965, we established the CCCs and, in 1978, because our population expanded and moved on to HDB flats, we decided to set up the RCs. And this year, we are going to have another "C", that is, the CDC. So we see a lot of grassroots organisations, not to mention the Civil Defence Coordinating Committees or the Constituency Sports Clubs. So there are indeed many committees and grassroots organisations in the constituencies. And many of these grassroots organisations have overlapping membership. We tax them a lot. They have served us well.

But I think we need to do a review of these various grassroots organisations because every time, we find a new activity and new role, we add on a new committee. So I think we need to do some review here so that the grassroots organisations will continue to work effectively and efficiently. And I have asked the PA to do this review, not just for grassroots organisations but also within the PA HQ itself. There again, every time, we need to do a new job, we create a new division. We cannot keep on doing that. The organisation must respond and reorganise in order to meet today's challenges.

Dr Teo also asked for more funding for building, extending or renovating our community clubs. I am pleased to tell him that in parallel with this organisational review, the PA has recently completed a review of the planning norms and funding principles for the development of our community clubs. The PA has adopted a population catchment approach in the building of community clubs in new towns. Previously, that is, before this recent change, a community club was built on the basis of population catchment to serve about 10,000 units or about 40,000 people. The Government financed 80% of the total cost of building a new community club or extending a community club or centre, subject to a maximum of $5.3 million. If the CC were to be upgraded, then the Government will give 70% of the upgrading cost, subject to a ceiling of $1.77 million. And if the community club were to be reconstructed, that means we pull it down and rebuild, and if it includes a compatible user, the Government gives 90% of the building cost, subject to a ceiling of $6.325 million.

But with the reduction in the household size and the increase in housing density in HDB estates in the new towns, we need to have a new approach to the planning norm and also because of the Government's intention to have more citizens living in private housing estates, we also need to review the planning norm. This planning norm was revised, and on 19th June, the PA got the Government's approval to increase the serving ratio of one big CC for 50,000 people so as to maximise the use of land and scarce resources that we have. Under the new planning norm, not every division or constituency will have a big community club or centre. Two divisions may share one big community club, such as in the case of Bishan East and Bishan North. We now only have one big centre and it is called the Bishan Community Club to serve the residents of both Bishan East and North. Some divisions may only have one void deck community centre, such as the Aljunied Division of Aljunied GRC and in Nee Soon South Division of Ang Mo Kio GRC.

Furthermore, as many organisations, not just Government organisations, not just self-help groups, not just voluntary organisations, but also universities, are competing for the same resources, ie, the same charity pool or charitable dollar, the Government has recently decided to increase the financing for the building, extension and upgrading of our CCs to 90% of the total cost. In other words, we have a standard uniform rate of subsidy. It has increased the grant ceiling to $6.38 million for a new community centre or club and the extension and full or partial reconstruction of an existing club. The ceiling for upgrading a community club will be raised to $2.435 million from $1.77 million. All these ceilings are subject to a maximum floor area of 3,800 square metres and the grant will be adjusted to take into account cost inflation in future.

These new financing formulae will apply to all approved ongoing and new projects for building, extension, upgrading and reconstruction of CCs as on 19th June this year. These new formulae will lessen the burden of the grassroots leaders and the Advisors in having to raise funds and allow them more time to do more community work and bond with the people. 5.15 pm

Sir, the Government will continue to provide resources to the PA and the GROs to carry out their mission, but the grassroots leaders, the volunteers and the residents themselves must also play an active role and make full use of the scarce resources given to them.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Community Development (Mr Chan Soo Sen): Sir, I would like to address the two other questions raised regarding the People's Association, one by Dr Tan Boon Wan on youth services, and the other by Dr Yaacob Ibrahim on community relations, specifically racial harmony.

Dr Tan Boon Wan mentioned that more wholesome activities should be organised for the youths and more resources should be devoted to these activities. In fact, he also mentioned that we should give clear signals to our youths that we recognise them in their own rights. We already recognise the youths in their own rights. Organisationally, in the People's Association, we have a Youth Division devoted to the PA Youth Movement. We also have the National Youth Council which is chaired by a Minister and they are not starved of resources. Last year, the Government gave $12 million to set up a National Youth Council Youth Development Fund in order to promote youth activities.

There are already a lot of activities that have been organised by the various youth groups through the various programmes. These are provided by the schools, educational institutions, community centres, community clubs, self-help groups, uniformed groups, civic and welfare organisations. There are currently 98 youth groups with about 100,000 members under the PA Youth Movement based at the community centres and the community clubs. Most of these youth groups are given facilities and rooms to organise and operate. They conduct their meetings and activities in the various CCs. The youth groups also have access to CC facilities such as karaoke rooms, Internet cafes, gymnasiums, activity rooms, reading rooms, dance studios and so on.

The PA Youth Movement also organises a very wide range of activities for our youths. This includes educational, social, recreational, sports activities, community service, including overseas adventure programmes. The idea is basically to channel youthful energies to constructive use.

As far as boys' clubs are concerned, there are currently 13 boys' clubs, and the Government will be spending about $1.8 million this year. Boys' clubs organise a wide range of sports, social, cultural and recreational activities for teenagers between 12 and 16 years of age, the very age that, I believe, Dr Tan is most concerned about.

Our National Youth Council also manages the National Youth Centre which is at Orchard Road. It has a youth centre and a youth park featuring various facilities such as reading room, multi-purpose room, Internet cafe and so on. The National Youth Council spends about $2.23 million this year for youth outreach activities.

Sir, on the whole, after rattling through the list, I hope the Member is satisfied that we have organised plenty of activities for the youths. The People's Association will continue to look into and initiate new programmes to attract the youths. We have got the Youth Executive Committees to also brainstorm to look into this, because the idea is that we want the young people to give us ideas of what activities they actually want. We, of course, welcome new ideas from various other quarters. But having done so much, we have to recognise that young people, being young people, some of them prefer to be left on their own, because they feel that they have a mind of their own. For such youths, I suppose we will have to respect their wishes, so long as they do not run into problems. We, therefore, would not be able to achieve 100% youth outreach, but we can assure him that we will achieve a substantial amount of youth outreach through our various activities.

I will now turn to the point raised by Dr Yaacob Ibrahim about racial harmony. Yes, we strongly agree with Dr Yaacob Ibrahim that racial harmony is the very foundation of our country. It is something that is not to be taken for granted. We have heard too many tragedies resulting from ethnic clashes. We take pride in being one of the oasis of racial harmony, and we will continue to work hard to maintain that.

In fact, when the People's Association was set up in 1960, racial harmony was one of the key objectives which is on its statute. And because of this, right from day one, the People's Association has been working very hard to initiate the various programmes aimed at promoting racial harmony. The activities again include educational, cultural, recreational, sports and so on. While fostering inter-ethnic participation and interaction, the People's Association and its grassroots organisations also promote the cultural activities of different ethnic groups, including Malay, Chinese, Indian music and dances. These help to promote harmony within our diversity of race, culture and language.

We agree that we should never be complacent. We should continue to do more. The People's Association will continue to promote multi-racial participation in the management of its CCs as well as its activities. The PA and its grassroots organisations will improve the quality of its existing community programmes and introduce new ones in order to facilitate greater inter-communal cooperation. For example, there will be more multi-racial items at zonal and constituency functions, such as block parties, festive gatherings as well as National Day celebrations. We will conduct more National Education talks that emphasise, amongst other things, the importance of racial harmony.

The task of promoting racial harmony and social cohesion, of course, is not only the job of the People's Association. The People's Association will work with other organisations, both Government, community as well as civic organisations to promote this important theme. We will work closely with the self-help groups, civic organisations and cultural bodies to implement existing and new multi-racial programmes. And with the establishment of the Community Development Councils, we see additional impetus, because the CDCs will be able to better coordinate these activities that emphasise racial harmony. A lot has been said about the CDCs, so I do not think I need to repeat them.

Dr Yaacob Ibrahim: A point of clarification, Sir.

The Chairman: Make it quick because we are running short of time.

Dr Yaacob Ibrahim: I am happy to hear what has been said by Mr Chan about the efforts by Government to promote racial harmony. I welcome any suggestion and any new ideas that we, at the grassroots level, can actually implement to promote greater cooperation among the different races. One example that comes to mind again is the Youth Festival where at the end of the first day of the performance, all the different racial groups came together and had one common performance. I thought that was a good display of the sort of racial interaction that we have in Singapore.

I just want to take up one point raised by Minister Abdullah Tarmugi. Is that all right, Mr Deputy Speaker?

The Chairman: Make it quick.

Dr Yaacob Ibrahim: On the detection list, I think all of us have received a copy from MCD and we have distributed it. There are some concerns that to use that list you require a certain skill. We fear that kiasu neighbours might become over zealous and in trying to report violence or problems with their neighbours, this may lead to other problems which we have not anticipated. So we are wondering whether MCD has any plans to conduct some sort of introductory training courses for some grassroots leaders so that they are able to be more sensitive in using this detection list.

The second point is on his suggestion about the drop-in centres being located at the half-way house. This, as he said, is a slight deviation from the recommendation of IMC. Will this be implemented in the near future?

Encik Zainul Abidin Rasheed (Cheng San): Sir, before the Minister answers, can I just quickly ask a point of clarification? This is on the Ministry's cooperation with self-help groups, particularly the ethnic self-help groups like Mendaki, AMP, CDAC and SINDA. In view of their potential, will the Ministry weigh the level of cooperation between the Ministry and those self-help groups?

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: This is in regard to which amendment?

Encik Zainul Abidin Rasheed: I wish to have a clarification on your comments just now regarding the cooperation between the Ministry and the voluntary organisations.

The Chairman: Maybe we should allow the Minister to reply to Dr Yaacob Ibrahim first.

Encik Zainul Abidin Rasheed: I thought he may want to reply together.

The Chairman: Mr Abdullah, can you please reply to Dr Yaacob? We are running short of time.

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: Thank you for the feedback on the difficulties in trying to implement the checklist. Certainly, we can consider such briefings to the grassroots leaders. The Member can bring it up formally with the Ministry, and we will certainly look into it.

With regard to the drop-in centre, in fact, we have asked Pertapis to start it..

The Chairman: Encik Zainul, your name was called but you were not in just now. Is this why you are trying to bring it up now?

Encik Zainul Abidin Rasheed: I wanted a clarification from the Minister on his comments about the collaboration between his Ministry and the voluntary organisations. Would you allow that, Sir?

The Chairman: Mr Abdullah, do you wish to reply?

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: I do not remember mentioning collaboration with self-help groups.

Encik Zainul Abidin Rasheed: With voluntary organisations. I suppose self-help groups would come under voluntary organisations too. Sir, if time is pressing, I will just pass.

The Chairman: Maybe you can put in a Question for oral answer.

Encik Zainul Abidin Rasheed: That is fine. Thank you.

The Chairman: Encik Zainul, can you speak on the next topic on the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura.

Encik Zainul Abidin Rasheed: ( In Malay): Sir, we are aware that Singapore is a secular state. Generally, it takes a neutral position in religion. Nevertheless, secularism here is unique. It is not like the secularism in Turkey or France, where the relationship between the state and religion has brought about many problems, and even threatening their stability. We thank God that the situation here is different. There is mutual respect between the two. In fact, there is cooperation.

Allow me to call secularism in Singapore as "secularism with a heart, if not a soul". One thing special about it is that we have the Muslim Religious Council (MUIS) as a statutory board or a semi-Government body. The role played by MUIS in terms of religious and community development to bring about a dynamic world view has widened, as compared to its moderate role about 20 years ago. Now it has a more pervasive role, which is respected by the community. Its role is even felt in this region with its constructive contributions through the regional group of the Muslim Ministers of Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia or MABIM. 5.30 pm

This is welcomed by the Muslims. The support shown by the Muslims to MUIS has grown significantly. Whether in terms of management and building of mosques and the collection of zakat (tithes), the signs are clear.

Zakat collection has grown from about $2 million a few years back to about $7 million this year - a definite show of confidence in MUIS management and integrity. MUIS is definitely on its march to greater heights. Similarly, other Malay-Muslim organisations like Mendaki, AMP, Jamiyah have also shown much progress.

Lest it be misunderstood, it is not the beating of war drums of the so-called fundamentalism in the Muslim community but adrenalin pumping, to press on with the rest of Singapore, marching mainstream.

MUIS deserves all the support if it is to continue to play that role in community upliftment and help build a cohesive plural Singapore society and nation. Do not miss this opportunity to uplift the Malay/Muslim community together.

I am confident the Government will truly understand the role played by MUIS and the Muslim community and uplift its support. MUIS deserves more support, both in financial and non-financial terms. I know MUIS has benefited from the secondment of several senior Government officials, and I hope this will continue whenever necessary, while MUIS continues to recruit its own professionals.

MUIS and the Malay/Muslim community are now as committed and determined to progress and live harmoniously, as never seen before. They must continue to be strengthened and supported.

We are thankful that the Government is now all the more together with the community while it faces the challenges and wave of upliftment. I hope this symbiotic relationship will be further strengthened in the interest of our multi-racial, multi-religious Singapore.

The Chairman: Mr Hawazi, can you take your two topics together?

Mr Hawazi Daipi: ( In Malay): Sir, the step taken by Majlis Ugama Islam Singapore (MUIS) in getting the local Malay/Muslim organisations to carry out some of its responsibilities is commendable. It provides opportunity to the Malay/Muslim leaders to play an active and direct role that affects the Muslims in Singapore. Some of these mosques and the Muslim organisations not only possess the knowledge but also the experience in such areas where they may be able to assist MUIS on its role and duties and also provide leadership. One such area involves the handling of animals for the korban rite. The bad experience which occurred in this year's korban rite should not recur. MUIS action to pass over this role to the mosques should be encouraged. Although there is devolution to the community leaders, MUIS should not be seen to pass over or abdicate its responsibilities in this area. In providing the animals for the korban, MUIS, formed by the Muslim community leaders, should continue to play its role as supervisor and advisor for the community. This is so because the Muslim community is still dependent on the leadership of MUIS in religious matters.

Although MUIS' intention is to give the mosques and the Muslim organisations a role to play, MUIS should be regarded as a body which is responsible in the event of any unpredictable incident happening.

Sir, the same case will be in respect of MUIS' concern regarding the Malay/ Muslim females who are unable to find a life partner. MUIS is in the best position to lead and identify the problems and to find a solution together with Yayasan Mendaki, Association Of Muslim Professionals, the Muslim Women's Association of Singapore and such other organisations. As a statutory body, MUIS is in the best position to obtain cooperation from other Government aided bodies to identify the problems which need to be solved. In this issue, I hope the Minister will be able to enlighten us on the problems faced by the Muslim community, especially the educated females. How many tertiary educated females are not married and are past the marriageable age? Sir, although this issue is regarded as very personal and sensitive, MUIS and the other Malay/Muslim organisations which are involved in promoting a happy married life should be encouraged to discuss this matter openly. If this can be done, not only will the community benefit from this effort but it will reduce the sensitiveness of the issue.

Back to the leadership of the mosques and the Muslim organisations which are involved directly in the development of the Muslim community, I would like to ask MUIS whether they have any plan to extend this role, for instance, in the issue of the halal certificate. I hope the Minister will give his views.

Effective this year, MUIS has implemented a new registration system for the Muslim community who wishes to perform the obligatory haj pilgrimage. This new system is implemented on the basis of first come, first served and registration for the haj pilgrimage will be adopted after the year 1998. Over the past few years, MUIS has made efforts to bring about several changes and improvements to the registration of pilgrims in Singapore. This is due to one major problem. The quota allotted to pilgrims for Singapore is limited, that is, around 3,000 pilgrims. My question is, first, what is the evaluation by MUIS regarding the acceptance by the community towards the new registration system? Second, what efforts have been made by MUIS to secure an additional quota for Singapore haj pilgrims? Thirdly, what are the problems that can arise among Singapore pilgrims who obtain their visa outside Singapore? What steps can be taken so that the benefits can be derived through getting more visas from other countries in this region? Lastly, what is MUIS' initiative in order to secure cooperation from the travel agents or the Association of Muslim Travel Agents for the purpose of according excellent service to the pilgrims?

Dr Ho Tat Kin: Sir, the Singapore Sports Council's survey on sports participation rate shows that 83.3% of housewives and 85.1% of retirees do not participate in any sports at all over a three-month period preceding the survey. Regular participation rate was very low, only 10.7% for housewives and 12.4% for retirees.

Sir, in view of the rising cost of health care in Singapore, it is important for everyone to keep and remain fit and healthy. In September last year, the Prime Minister launched the Sports for Life programme to set a new direction needed to enhance the quality of life in an aging population. Its aim is to promote sports by making it more affordable and easily accessible and encourage more women, particularly housewives and retirees, to become physically active and to take up one sport for life. May I ask the Minister what progress has been made so far and what are its achievements?

Currently, at the constituency level, sports are promoted through the Constituency Sports Clubs (CSCs). But the CSCs are made up of volunteers doing community work on a part-time basis. While they have done a good job and their contributions have been significant, my concern is whether there are enough activities to sustain the Sports for Life programme. This is basically due to the shortage of manpower, particularly trained manpower, and the shortage of funds. I would like to suggest that the Singapore Sports Council employ full time sports managers and locate them at the various community clubs to help promote this programme. The sports managers can plan, coordinate and organise in conjunction with the CSCs sports activities for the whole constituency on a regular and structured basis. Training can be arranged regularly for the residents at nearby regional sports and fitness centres. Housewives and retirees can be encouraged to participate in a wide range of sports and recreational activities according to their interest and ability on a regular basis.

Sir, may I ask the Minister what is the progress made in the setting up of the Regional Sports and Fitness Centre and whether more funds would be made available to the CSCs to assist them in promoting and carrying out the Sports for Life programme?

The Chairman: Mr Choo Wee Khiang is not here. Mr Abdullah.

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: Sir, I would like to thank Mr Zainul Abidin, the Member for Cheng San GRC, for applauding the work of MUIS and the increasing role that MUIS is playing nowadays in a multi-racial setting. He asked whether more help could be given to MUIS in terms of manpower, including secondment of manpower, and also funding. MUIS' functions have been widening, as has been mentioned by Mr Zainul Abidin. It will be facing many challenges ahead, especially in the next millennium. Therefore, it means that it will have to have the best thinkers and intellectuals in the community to provide the religious and modern administrative leadership in a country like Singapore. More professionals and other graduates will be needed. In fact, the number has been increasing in MUIS now. Last year, for example, 12 graduates were recruited by MUIS to head its various departments. MUIS has also set aside a scholarship fund amounting to $1 million to recruit among the brightest in the community to undergo undergraduate studies and they will be bonded to serve in MUIS when they come back.

As to secondment of civil servants to MUIS, this will be looked into as and when we require their services. But we will try to develop ourselves with our own resources through these scholarships which I have mentioned and also through the recruitment of more graduates and professionals.

MUIS' programme, as mentioned earlier by Mr Zainul Abidin also, has got increasing widespread support by the community and it has several sources of funds . These include what you call the Baitumal fund, the Mosques Building Fund, the madrasah fund, the wakaf fund and also the zakat and fitrah fund. These are expected to provide an income of about $31 million in the current fiscal year. MUIS also, quite apart from these sources of funds, still needs Government's continued help in funding, especially to continue its critical institutional support and funding. The Government is actually funding the establishment posts of the Secretariat. In the last five years, the grants have been more or less increasing, depending on the annual output plan that MUIS Secretariat puts up. 5.45 pm

In view of the many challenges ahead, I have asked MUIS to review the composition of the Secretariat so that it will have the necessary talents to lead the Muslim community into the 21st century. To attract these talents, definitely appropriate salaries and rewards will have to be worked out, and this will also be looked into.

I have also asked MUIS to consider doing more to help strengthen the integrity of the family unit by looking at a more comprehensive approach to reducing divorce rates. Separate programme grants for MUIS have been asked for, so that MUIS could set up a Marriage Development Unit (MDU) to look into divorces and also into the unmarried graduates which Mr Hawazi mentioned just now.

Let me go to Mr Hawazi's question. MUIS appreciates the cooperation and support by the mosques. Over the years, MUIS' programmes have been supported by the mosques and they are well run. And the mosques, I think, are now in a better position to handle or manage their own projects. MUIS sees the devolvement of some of its activities to responsible bodies like mosques, so that it can focus its attention on policy issues, coordination and other pressing issues affecting the Muslims in Singapore.

It has devolved, among other things, the korban, or the sheep sacrifice tendering system, and also part of the organisation of the Prophet Muhammad's birthday celebration ceremony and the National Koran Reading competition. These will be fully devolved in time. In the devolution of its functions, Mr Hawazi will be happy to know that MUIS will continue to supervise and guide the Mosque Management Boards in their new role. For the new Korban Committee, for example, MUIS has a permanent representative on the Committee who will help to assist and advise the Committee on the tender process and contractual provisions. Other key activities will also be closely monitored by MUIS.

With regard to the problem of unmarried graduates, this has been a problem faced by the Muslim community. In fact, the problem in the community is more serious than the other communities because of the higher female-male ratio in the tertiary institutions especially.

In this regard, Sir, we have plans for the development or the setting up of the Marriage Development Unit (MDU), as I mentioned earlier, in MUIS. The original objective of the Unit was to reduce the high divorce rates among Muslims. But we thought that instead of trying to look into the problem of divorce only, we could perhaps widen the role of the Unit to include also marriage preparation and the problems of unmarried female graduates.

MUIS will be looking into the funding provisions of the Unit and it will be submitting to Government on the amount of funds that will be required to set up and run the Unit. MUIS will be playing a coordinating role. In other words, MUIS will not implement the programmes that will be organised by the Unit. These programmes will be implemented by organisations which have been mentioned earlier by Mr Hawazi, that is, organisations like Mendaki, Association of Muslim Professionals (AMP) and the Young Women's Muslim Association (or PPIS). There would be an advisory panel for MDU, comprising leaders of MUIS, Mendaki, AMP, Syariah Court and also the PPIS.

On the question of haj, Mr Hawazi asked what is the public acceptance of the new registration system introduced by MUIS. The system has been introduced and the first phase was in fact put into effect from 14th July and it ended yesterday. The first phase comprises registration of those who have not gone to the haj and they were registered for the haj between 1998 and the year 2002. That is the first phase. The second phase is for those who want to go to the haj, including those who have gone to the haj previously and want to go to the haj again from 1998 up to the year 2002. This second phase will start on 15th September.

Essentially, the system is on a first-come-first-served basis and it allows the potential pilgrims to plan ahead when he or she wants to go to haj because it is for a five-year period. It is easier. So the feedback that we have received so far is that it is a much simpler system and it enables them to plan ahead for their haj.

He also asked whether there are efforts by MUIS to get a bigger quota. Indeed, Sir, MUIS every year, since the time of Mr Zainul Abidin, has been trying to get a bigger quota for Singapore. The official quota for Singapore is 3,000 pilgrims per year. And inevitably, since it was started, the number has hovered between 4,000 and 5,000 a year. So we have had to appeal to the Saudi Arabian authorities to increase the quota. So far, we have had success in our appeals. And for this year, if the number breaks the quota again, we will certainly appeal to the Saudi Arabian authorities.

Mr Hawazi suggested that if the quota is not sufficient for us, why not take up the unused quota of the other countries in the region. Except for perhaps Indonesia and Malaysia, the quota for the other countries in the region, I think, is not that big in the first place. Indonesia and Malaysia, in fact, are also having problems with their quota because inevitably, again, each year the number who wants to go to the haj is bigger than the quota provided to them. So it is unlikely that we are able to take up the unused quota from Malaysia and Indonesia.

With regard to the unused quota from the other countries in the region, the quota is really small. So we do not really see the need to go into all these problems of trying to persuade or negotiate the unused quota from the other countries. So we will make do with the quota that we have and certainly, as I said earlier, we would appeal to the Saudi Arabian authorities each year.

The last question which Mr Hawazi asked was the kind of cooperation that MUIS receives from the Muslim travel agents or the Association of Muslim Travel Agents (AMTAS). So far, we have been able to work together. We have frequent discussions and dialogues with AMTAS. In fact, just earlier this month, I attended a dialogue with them and they took the opportunity to give us feedback on the problems on the ground and also we took the opportunity to tell them the concerns that we had over the haj programme. So there will be these continued discussions and negotiations between MUIS and AMTAS.

Dr Ho Tat Kin asked for the progress that has been made in the Sports for Life programme. I am happy to report that since September 1996 when PM launched the programme, we have had very good progress. Public education programme was mounted in all the mass media to popularise and promote the programme.

I will give Members some examples of the progress that we have made. The Sports for Life Fitness Tests, for example, we had quite a good turnout. We had more than 12,000 people participating in the three physical fitness tests that we had during the period October 1996 to June 1997. And this number is expected to grow significantly as more test centres are put up. It is worthy to note that of the first-timers who took part in these tests, about two-thirds were senior citizens and housewives.

SSC gymnasiums are also extremely popular. These gymnasiums at Clementi, Woodlands, Tampines, Kallang and Delta saw increasing patronage since they started.

Working adults in fact form one of the largest target groups in the Sports for Life programme. Indeed, many working adults are coming to the programme.

The SSC also actively promotes a total of 20 Learn-to-Play schemes and again these have been well attended. Again, between October 1996 and June 1997, a total of 46,000 people had participated in this programme.

In the national mass events there are 11 altogether again, between the period of January and June this year, we attracted about 103,000 participants.

Progress in the setting up of Regional Sports and Fitness Centres (RSFCs) - to-date there are three RSFCs at Clementi, Tampines and Woodlands. Another three will be built. They will be at Bedok, Toa Payoh and Yio Chu Kang. They are expected to be ready by the end of the year. Altogether, by the year 2000, we expect to have 15 RSFCs island-wide.

With regard to funds for Constituency Sports Club, CSCs, as the Member knows, are given subsidies to organise and run their activities for residents. In fact, recently, the SSC has increased the quantum of these subsidies to CSCs to reflect the higher costs and also to cover a wider range of activities.

With regard to the employment of full-time Sports Managers at CCs, this may not be a viable proposition due to manpower constraints, and really there is limited space in the CCs. However, each CSC is assigned a Sports Officer, based at the SSC and paid by the SSC, whose job is to guide and assist the CSC in promoting and organising sports at the community level.

With the establishment of the RSFCs, there will be five full-time staff at each RSFC. Their job is to help the CSCs within their region to promote Sports for Life programme to the community. Indeed, Sir, there has been a lot of progress in the Sports for Life programme launched by the PM last year.

Dr Vasoo: Sir, I would like to thank the Minister and the Deputy Chairman of the People's Association for the proactive steps that will be taken to deal with community issues and to promote community bonding.

Sir, it is important to think about how we can attract good people, volunteers, as well as committed and competent staff to strengthen the work of various voluntary organisations and also the grassroots organisations. I hope the Minister will give serious thought to improve the various service conditions of these people and the volunteers too.

On that note, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Order. It is 6.00 pm.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1997/1998, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.