SINGAPOREANS GOING OVERSEAS FOR SEX WITH MINORS

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SINGAPOREANS GOING OVERSEAS FOR SEX WITH MINORS: 9.

Ms Eunice Elizabeth Olsen asked the Minister for Home Affairs if the Government is aware of Singaporeans who go overseas to engage in sex with minors and, if so, how many cases have come to the attention of the authorities.

The Senior Minister of State for Home Affairs (Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee) (for the Minister for Home Affairs): Sir, based on information provided by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA), there have been three cases of Singaporeans arrested overseas for sexual offences involving persons under 16 years of age between the period 1994 and April this year. MFA is notified when Singaporeans arrested overseas for such offences seek assistance from our overseas missions, or when the foreign law enforcement agencies inform our overseas missions of such cases. However, not all overseas cases of child-sex offences by Singaporeans may have been brought to the attention of our overseas missions by the local authorities.

Ms Eunice Elizabeth Olsen (Nominated Member): Sir, I just like to make a reference to a quote by an article in Today on 27th April: "Singaporean sex tourists are reported to make up the largest number of sex tourists visiting Indonesia's Riau Islands, where many of those they sexually exploit are under the age of 18." So may I just ask the Senior Minister of State: does the Government intend to do anything to help tackle this problem that is plaguing the region, and how does the Government

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propose to stop Singaporeans from destroying the lives of young children overseas?

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, people on the ground may know of more of such cases. I think Ms Olsen's question was specifically on how the numbers of cases have come to our attention through the authorities. So these numbers are cases that have come to the notice of Government through our embassies overseas. There could be more Singaporeans going overseas for sex, including some with minors.

I had taken this question in the House before, last year, as to whether more could be done. My response then was that, first of all, for those who organise sex tours overseas with minors, they are committing an offence because they would be abetting an offence. Here, in Singapore, the act takes place, even though the actual act of having sex is overseas, but the preparation is done here. So they are liable. But from Police's information, there have been no such organisers of sex tours with minors.

Sir, the question really is what more can be done. We are aware, of course, that there have been countries overseas that have implemented laws with extra-territorial application. I think this probably is what Ms Olsen is referring to. The answer we gave last year was that we would continue to monitor how these laws work out in these countries that have enacted them. Because our understanding is that whilst we can have these laws in place, it is very difficult to implement them principally because there will be legal and very serious practical problems of gathering evidence and putting up a strong case in court. But like I had said last year, it is something that we have on our monitor. We will continue to monitor the situation, especially on how these laws work out in these countries and make reviews along the way.

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Ms Irene Ng Phek Hoong (Tampines): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Senior Minister of State whether Singapore should take a clear stand in terms of a clear message to Singaporean men that it is totally not acceptable for them to be going overseas to exploit young women, if not through law, then perhaps through a campaign. I know we have an aversion to campaigns now. But, perhaps, with all this publicity, it would be useful for us to stress the message as it would also help us to maintain Singapore's image and reputation as a society that is wholesome.

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: I think more can be done to highlight this problem, but it need not only be done by the Government. So I think that this is where welfare groups outside of Government can highlight this problem. In Singapore, of course, you know that we take a very tough stand against those who have sex with minors. This matter has been raised in public and international fora, which is the need for home countries to do more. That is why recently at a conference, this has been highlighted, and the ASEAN Secretary-General said that home countries are doing more in terms of publicity, public education and poverty eradication. I think he also suggested putting up notices at entry points to some of these countries to remind visitors that it is an offence to have sex with minors.

In Singapore, on the law side, let us continue to review our laws and monitor the situation. Because, as you know, in Singapore, when we have laws, the question of enforceability is a key point. We do not want to have laws which are difficult to enforce. At the same time, more can be done to highlight this problem, I suppose, even in terms of peer pressure not to do it, that can also work on the ground.

Ms Eunice Elizabeth Olsen: Sir, I understand the constraints, like it is hard

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to gather evidence and all that. But in the same way that Singapore has extra judicial powers over Singaporeans consuming drugs overseas, then is it possible for the Government to do the same for an offence where victims are actually innocent children?

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, the two situations are not really on all fours. Because for these Singaporeans who are caught consuming drugs overseas, the evidence is that when they enter Singapore, they are tested positive for drugs. In terms of evidence, it is already there. While I see the point that Ms Olsen makes, really those offences, where there is extra-territorial jurisdiction, are very serious offences like corruption or terrorism. So we have gone beyond the domestic jurisdiction principle for these very serious offences. Like I have said, it is not a never, never answer, because it is an evolving situation.

Mr Sin Boon Ann (Tampines): Sir, is the Minister saying therefore that sex with minors overseas is not that serious? I believe that other legislation elsewhere, for example, the Securities and Futures Act (SFA) has extra-territorial reach which also involves getting evidence overseas for prosecution in Singapore. The Senior Minister of State has actually said that it takes some time to monitor and examine the performance of this extra-territorial legislation. I just like to know how long the Ministry intends to take or how much time does it take to continue with this monitoring before it comes up with any concrete action in this regard.

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: From my experience, we know, for example, the Australians have these laws in place for about 10 years now, and they have only about 10 prosecutions. But we will see the difficulties that they encounter and how they overcome these difficulties. And as we learn, for example, the

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experience of the Australians and the Americans, we will then be on firmer ground to consider whether such a law can work in Singapore.

Mr Steve Chia Kiah Hong (Non-Constituency Member): Sir, as what our Backbencher Mr Sin has said, how long does the Government want to monitor and monitor? Until it actually puts a public statement saying that it does not condone such practices of its citizens, do we not want to have a public statement saying that we do not condone such action by instituting a law against it?

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: So far as the Government is concerned, the statement is very clear that, having sex with minors, including statutory rape, the laws in Singapore - the Penal Code, the Children and Young Persons Act, the Women's Charter - are very, very strict. That is very clear. Here, it is not a question of whether the Government makes a stand. Our stand on sex with minors in Singapore is very clear. The question is whether we should have such a law which would be difficult to enforce and whether discouraging such an act should be put just before the Government, or should other agencies do more. Here, it is a perfect case for other agencies to also send a signal because the perpetrators are possibly amongst us. I think this is an evolving picture because the countries in the region are also putting more attention to it. For example, the plight of these young victims overseas will be highlighted and, hopefully, this will also help create the psychological barrier or disincentive for Singaporeans to carry on doing this.

Ms Eunice Elizabeth Olsen: Sir, because this act of having sex with minors is so frowned upon in Singapore, and it has also been said in the papers that Singapore is well placed to do

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something about the problem and, by enacting a law, would it not then show that we really are not condoning such an act and by making a statement saying that we do not want our citizens who are going overseas to do something like that?

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, to answer Ms Oslen, this is a situation that requires concerted action by everybody, and whatever steps that are taken or laws that are enacted should be effective laws. For example, if a law is enacted and a country acts where this takes place and if the law enforcement officers seriously enforce those laws and secure convictions that are publicised, as have been done in some cases, I think that would be a strong disincentive. On our part, let us continue to monitor whether having extra-territorial laws in Singapore would be effective.

Mr Speaker: One last question, Mr Steve Chia.

Mr Steve Chia Kiah Hong: Sir, the Government has never been afraid of instituting tough laws, or laws that are very difficult to be implemented in the past. So I felt a certain hestitation of the Government in instituting a law that has extra-territorial jurisdiction. It seems that it is not very keen in putting up this law to send a statement out to the international community that sex with minors is not okay in Singapore. It seems that the Government does not care if he is out of the country. It is projecting that kind of image.

Mr Speaker: What is your question, Mr Steve Chia?

Mr Steve Chia Kiah Hong: My question is, as I explained earlier, why is there this hesitation of the Government to institute this law?

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: We enforce tough laws. Many of the

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domestic laws are tough laws, but they are enforced. I think we should not mix the two. Here, we are talking about laws that have extra-territorial jurisdiction and the difficulties in enforcing these laws because they require the cooperation of other agencies, for example, to gather evidence, and, in the first place, you have to detect what is happening. When you go and gather evidence, there will be problems working with the agencies there and you may have problem in securing a conviction back home because of the rules of evidence that require standards of proof and other considerations. I think Mr Chia should not mix up the two. This is a very narrow situation of whether we should have more laws with extra-territorial jurisdiction. As the Government, we have been very careful in enacting such laws.