STRIKE BY EMPLOYEES OF PEOPLE'S ASSOCIATION (Commission of Inquiry)

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

2.30 p.m.

Resumption of proceedings stood over from 16th November, 1961.

Mr Speaker: Order. At the Movement of Interruption yesterday, we were on Question 18*, which is now Question 1* on today's Order Paper, and the Prime Minister was in the process of answering a supplementary question by the Member for Mountbatten, which is as follows:

*The question, standing in the name of Mrs Seow Peck Leng, reads as follows:

To ask the Prime Minister if consideration will be given to appointing a Commission of Inquiry to investigate into the causes of the strike by employees of the People's Association.

"Mr Speaker, Sir, I wonder whether the Prime Minister could tell the House whether he did or did not give an interview to the seven members of this Action Committee on the 20th September, 1961?"

The Prime Minister (Mr Lee Kuan Yew): As I was saying yesterday, Mr Speaker, Sir, I cannot remember the exact date. But I did see the seven members of the self-styled ex-staff Action Committee for some two hours, and I took the precaution of having the proceedings recorded. As a result of the fact that the proceedings were faithfully recorded, there has been no argument as to what took place at that meeting.

Mrs Seow Peck Leng (Mountbatten): r Speaker, Sir, I wonder if the Prime Minister could tell us whether he said words to the effect that, without the P.A.P., there would be no People's Association and that if the employees of the People's Association valued their jobs, they must support the P.A.P. and act as political workers for the P.A.P. in community centres. Did the Prime Minister at that meeting ask the seven members to convey this to the other workers, and also ask them to state their political stand?

The Prime Minister: The answer to the question simply is that that is inaccurate. I have the tape recordings. They are in the hands of the Secretary of the People's Association. I think it will take about two to two and a half hours for the Member for Mountbatten to listen to the whole proceedings. Most of them ere in Mandarin, but I am quite prepared to lend her an interpreter in order to follow the proceedings. The point that I emphasised to the workers of the People's Association was that they had to be loyal to the P.A.P. Government, because that was the Government which created the People's Association and had the majority of the members of the Board, which took over the functions of the Social Welfare Department with respect to community centres. It is on the record, Sir, so the facilities are open to the Member for Mountbatten.

Mr Tee Kim Leng (Pasir Panjang): (In Mandarin): Yesterday the Prime Minister said that the People's Association 110W has 400-odd members. I want to know whether these include the instructors. If they are paid, whether they are paid according to time: this also includes the staff of the Social Welfare Department. Apart from this, how many are actually in employment in the People's Association?

Mr Speaker: I cannot allow the question because it is an entirely different question and does not arise out of the original question. Mr David Marshall.

Mr David Marshall (Anson): Yesterday, the Prime Minister said that there was no strike. I would remind him that certain employees went on strike there and they were dismissed. In view of the very considerable unhappiness about this issue, would he not consider appointing a Commission of Inquiry to investigate the whole aspect as suggested by the original questioner?

The Prime Minister: I do not want to go into an argument as to the definition of a strike. But if the Member for Anson would refer to the Industrial Disputes Ordinance, a strike there is a stoppage of work by the concerted action of a group of employees who are organised in a lawfully constituted union. You can have all kinds of strikes. You can call stoppage of work by any name. But when you are talking about a strike in this Assembly which makes the law, we are talking about a strike in accordance with the law. The strike at the People's Association is not a strike in accordance with the law, for the simple reason that there is no union. There was no strike notice because there is no union. 138 members decided to stop work in support of 17 members who were sacked. And although you have ruled that this does not arise, Mr Speaker, Sir, I might just touch on this point. 450 are full-time and part-time workers of the People's Association. 138 decided to stop work in support of 17. What can we do, Mr Speaker, Sir? As I have said, if we are going to have this Commission of Inquiry, I do not think the Commission should be set up on the reasons for the stoppage, because the stoppage is obvious. They said the reason why they stopped work was that they wanted the 17 workers reinstated. They wanted the Action Committee of seven who called a meeting in defiance of authority also to be reinstated.

May I explain this to those who have not been following the Press reports? it is a bit tedious, Mr Speaker, Sir. I met the seven people. They represented themselves and 138 others. I cannot remember the exact date. We recorded the proceedings. I said to them, "Convey to the members of the Association whom you say you represent that they have to be loyal to the P.A.P. Government and not take sides with the Barisan Sosialis, and in particular my former Parliamentary Secretary, the Member for Upper Serangoon, the former Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health, the Member for Nee Soon, who were the Chairman and member respectively of the Selection Board whilst in actual charge of recruiting. I said, "I do not care what your personal relationships were, but we have the right to expect loyalty to the Board and to the Government that has to supervise the expenditure of funds." All this is fortunately on the record. As I said to them at the time of the interview - and this was also recorded - if they gave a version after the meeting which was different from what was recorded, then I would play this over Radio Singapore to prove who spoke the truth. And as I have said, they kept quiet on what transpired at the meeting. They replied to me and said, "Well, tell the workers of the People's Association yourself." I said, "Cannot you tell it to them, that they have to be loyal to the Board and the Government, and not to individuals who may, for divers reasons, have selected you or recruited you?" They said, "Call a meeting, and you should be present as Chairman to tell it to the workers." And I did. I called a meeting, I think, for the following day. I am not sure. But the following day was a Saturday. Notices went out to all workers to be present. Now these 7 workers, in defiance and contrary to what they had suggested to me, called a meeting of their own at the same time. We called the meeting for 1.00 p.m. at the City Hall Chamber of all the 450 workers for me to tell them that they should disengage themselves from political intriguing and in-fighting. Otherwise they would be involved and they would get smacked down. These seven chaps, using the People's Association's channels of communication, official channels, said that there was a meeting at the People's Association H.Q. at 12.00 o'clock, using my name, using the name of Mr Tan Chok Kian, Chief Executive Officer, and said that they were going to address this meeting, and drew a crowd away from the City Chamber to their meeting. Sir, people who do that sort of thing, when I had given them the courtesy of an interview, had met them and discussed the matter with them, and had called a meeting at their suggestion - it is on the record, on the tape - I called a meeting and they called a contrary meeting. And they said, "Look at the number of chaps who support us, who come to our meeting, and how few go to your meeting." Sir, 138 out of 450. We then went to each and every one and said, "Please explain why you did not attend the meeting as officially called." And many of them did. But they were tricked into attending the contrary meeting. The matter was considered by the Board of Management who decided to dismiss these seven who organised this meeting, to which they had called the 17 who were already dismissed to harangue the crowd and whip up feelings. I say this. If we are going to have a Commission of Inquiry, it is not necessary to go into the causes of the so-called strike, because the reason is obvious. We sacked the 17 because of their association with the Barisan Sosalis, because they actively used community centres and instigated people against the Government. But if they go on with these acts of hooliganism and violence and break windows, tables, chairs and telephones in my own constituency and the Yan Kit Community Centre - they took delight in dismantling the telephone and broke it into pieces - then I say, let us have an inquiry to see who really moves these little pawns on the chessboard. Is it -

An hon. Member: Set up a Commission of Inquiry.

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Prime Minister, have you completed your statement?

The Prime Minister: I am happy to receive any suggestion from any quarter. And I say, if that is what they really want and if they persist in it, that is what will be done. I might add also that right at this moment the Board of Management will be meeting to consider asking the Supreme Court for an injunction to prevent these people whom we know, the 138, from entering any community centre or besetting any community centre. They are, not members of the People's Association. They are not workers of it. They have broken and damaged property. We have been forbearing. If they persist, and if they say they want to fight it out constitutionally, then by all means let us go through the processes of law.

Mr S. T. Bani (Thomson): Sir, the Prime Minister has said quite a lot of things in his short blast. But I wonder if he will clarify whether, in fact, he was suggesting that withdrawal of labour by any group of workers who are unionised is something that this Government considers illegal?

The Prime Minister: It is not a question of what the Government considers illegal. It is illegal because it is not in accordance with the laws made by this Legislative Assembly. If the Member for Thomson wants to legalise a strike by a group of workers who are not organised into a union, who have not got a Committee, who have not got registered members, then I say to him, ask for leave to introduce a Bill which can be referred to a Select Committee, where they can argue why any stoppage of work should be made legal, including stoppages by members of this Assembly, and so on and so forth. By all means let us be democratic to the point where even if we were cows people would say how forbearing and how patient we are in the face of the uttermost provocation.

The law is here to be made and unmade. I am saying it is illegal because it is the law made by this Assembly. If I am not mistaken, I think certain sections of it were, in point of fact, made by the Member for Anson when he was the Chief Minister and leading the Government. If they want to unmake it and remake it, I say it is up to them.

Mr David Marshall: Mr Speaker, this has not occurred to me. I just remember, Sir, that in view of our Standing Orders, I should inform the House, having participated in these questions, that some members of the People's Association have consulted my office. I do not know whether they have paid any fees, Sir, and I would like the House to know that, I have no instructions either way on the subject of a Commission of Inquiry.

Mr Ong Chang Sam (Choa Chu Kang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, just now the Prime Minister said that the first time he had a meeting with the seven-member Committee he had a tape recording. Can I ask him when he can let us have this tape recording and have this published in the newspapers?

The Prime Minister (Mr Lee Kuan Yew): (In Mandarin): I said just now that whenever Members of this House want to listen to this tape recording, I will let them have it. That is the true version of the recording. If it is necessary, we will set up a Commission of Inquiry and members of the Commission can ascertain what we had discussed and said as recorded on the tape.

Dr Thio Chan Bee (Tanglin): Mr Speaker, a good deal of light could be thrown on this problem if the Prime Minister would supply the House with a list of employees of the People's Association, those on strike and those not on strike, and also a list of the persons, Assemblymen or otherwise, and organisations which introduced these employees.

Mr Speaker: The question being, will the Prime Minister do that?

The Prime Minister: Sir, I will do whatever is in the best interests of everyone and whatever the House wishes. As I want to point out, the people who really know best what these matters were about are the Chairman of the Selection Committee, the Member for Upper Serangoon, and a Committee member on that Selection Committee, the Member for Nee Soon. I think with their help I could compile that list.

Mr Speaker: I think I have been very lenient on this question. If any Member wishes to pursue -

Dr Sheng Nam Chin (Nee Soon) rose -

Mr Speaker: Order. If any Member wishes to pursue this matter, he should file a motion or crave the right to speak on the Adjournment. Question No. 2, Mr David Marshall.