ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 1969, TO 31ST MARCH, 1970

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.40 p.m.

Head 1201 -

The following amendment stood in the names of Mr Teong Eng Siong and Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Chairman: Mr Teong is not moving. Madam Chan is not here.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong -

(2) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Mr Ho Kah Leong is not moving amendment (2) .

The sum of $555,460 for Head 1201 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1204 -

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1204 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong.

Sir, I only wish to seek information on the total area of land now held by the British Armed Forces, and whether plans are being made well in advance before the reversion takes place rather than to wait till the end of 1971.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to draw the Minister's attention to three matters. Firstly, in order to create employment for our people, we have already embarked upon our industrialisation programme. As a result of this, we have selected Jurong as the site for an industrial estate which is in my constituency. In the process, some rural folk have to be resettled and problems usually arise in relation to resettlement.

Sir, generally speaking, the rural people do not quarrel with our industrial development programme. They are quite prepared to make some sacrifices and move to the resettlement areas provided, of course, that they are given adequate and reasonable compensation. The resettlement problems, however, are usually complicated by some Government officials who mishandle the situation. I wish to quote one instance. In my constituency, there is one island known as Pulau Ayer Chawan which, as Members are aware, has been chosen as the investment site of Esso (Singapore) Limited who will establish a $200 million refinery there. The people living there will have to be resettled on other islands. But for one reason or other, the Commissioner of Lands has allowed one family to move to an island known as Pulau Ayer Merbau. As a result, the other families on Pulau Ayer Chawan have also asked to be resettled on the same island, but their applications have been rejected because the island has been earmarked for further industrial development

2.45 p.m.

So they are dissatisfied; they think it is not fair. There are now seven families still staying in Pulau Ayer Chawan. Is this not a case where our industrial development is being hampered because of mishandling by Land Office officials'? I wonder whether there is any inter-departmental liaison, in my opinion, the Commissioner of Lands should at least get in touch with the Director of the Economic Development Board to ensure that the island which I have mentioned will not be used for industrial development before he allows any family to be resettled there.

Secondly, some Government officials do not collect revenue on due date and allow arrears to accumulate. This gives rise to inconvenience to the public and probably a loss of revenue to Government. I have noticed with growing concern that there are more and more cases of arrears in revenue collection. This happens not only in the Property Tax Department but also in the Land Office.

As far as I know, there are about 50 sand-quarry operators in Singapore and, under the regulations, they are required -to pay a royalty to the Land Office. I do not know whether it is due to the oversight of the Commissioner of Lands or for some other reasons that this royalty has not been collected for the past few years. But somebody recently discovered this and the sand-quarry operators were asked to pay the arrears in royalty amounting to about $500,000 for five years. It is not reasonable to expect them to pay this amount in one lump sum. In fact, many of them were unable to pay such a huge sum of money and some of them have even stopped operation. I do not know whether it is still possible to recover the arrears from those who have ceased operation. I wish to ask the Minister why such arrears have been allowed to accumulate. Is it due to the negligence of the officials concerned?

Thirdly, in my constituency, many areas have been earmarked for industrial development, and construction of public works is going on, such as repair of soads, construction of bridges and so on. There are usually some difficulties in the approval of these works. One of these relates to the undue delays by the Land Office in the clearance of applications for certain projects. Sir, I wish to amplify on this point. It will be a waste of public money for people to develop areas which are earmarked for development. Some people from development areas have recently been resettled in my constituency, and it is unreasonable for the authorities to resettle them once more in another area in such a short time, because the areas in which they live now will be developed. So there is actually no reason for the delay mentioned above. In fact, applications for clearance of construction projects will be answered only after a period of six months or one year. I had on the same occasion here last year complained of the inefficiency of the Land Office and I am mentioning it again in order to catch the attention of the Minister.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to draw the Minister's attention to some of the complaints made against the Land Office. In my constituency, there was an instance which gave rise to-unnecessary inconvenience to the people due to the inefficiency of the Land Office. At the 15th milestone of my constituency there is a village which has about 100 families. One of them applied for permission to renovate his-shop, but his application was rejected because that area has been earmarked for agricultural development. I have already mentioned that my constituency is in the rural area. I fail to understand why the Land Office has classified this area as a development area. I think the officers must be blind to realities. As a result, unnecessary trouble has been created and the officers concerned should be held responsible. In fact, in the surrounding areas, permission has been granted for the rural folk to build their huts and houses.

Will the Minister give appropriate-instructions to his officers to look further into the matler so that the rural folk will be given the necessary facilities?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Law and National Development (Law Division) (Mr S. Ramaswamy): Mr Speaker, Sir, let me-first deal with the queries raised by the Member for Mountbatten. The United Kingdom Services occupy about 14,603 acres of land in Singapore. A total of 1,177 acres of defence land have so far been transferred to the Singapore Government. The rest of the land occupied by the Services will be returned to the Singapore Government at the end of 1971.

The Member for Jurong complained of the discrimination in resettling, families who were living in Pulau Ayer Chawan. I would like to assure him that there was no discrimination in resettling these families. One isolated case was a resident of Pulau Ayer Chawan who was allocated a site in Pulau Ayer Merbau. The decision was taken on or before the whole of Pulau Ayer Chawan was considered to be cleared for industrial development.

The other families total nine in number. When it was decided that Pulau Ayer Chawan was to be leased to Esso (Singapore) Limited, the Land Office offered a piece of land to the remaining nine families in Pulau Merlimau which has already been laid out as a resettlement area by the Economic Development Board. Of these nine families, four of them have accepted this offer and the other five families have erected houses on the foreshore of the island.

With regard to royalties paid by the sand-quarry operators, the question of arrears is a long-standing problem with the Land Office. It appears that this has not been successfully resolved. In fact, the Ministry is investigating the circumstances under which these arrears have been allowed to accumulate. The collection of royalties in respect of the current year has been very- satisfactory and it is hoped that some reasonable arrangements can he worked out to collect the arrears of royalty due to the state without causing undue hardship to the operators. The Land Office, in consultation with the Ministry of Finance, will be prepared to consider any reasonable arrangement to settle the outstanding arrears in a manner which will not cause any undue hardship to the operators or landowners.

The Member for Jurong raised the question of repair of roads and so on. This is not the responsibility of the Land Office, if the Member is complaining of the delay in approving applications for erection of huts or repair of houses, then certain formalities have to he complied with, and in most cases these applications have been approved by the Land Office within a period of four to six weeks. These applications have also to go through the Chief Build ing~ Surveyor's Office and this will take a further six to eight weeks.

The Member for Sembawang complains of the refusal of permission to renovate a shop at the 15th milestone Sembawang. First of all, if the shop is on private land, the Land Office does not come into the picture at all. If the shop is on Temporary Occupation Licence, that is, the shop premises are on state land which is leased to the occupant on a Temporary Occupation Licence, then there should be an application to the Land Office.

3.00 p.m.

There has been no refusal of any application for renovation or renewal or reconstruction of any shophouses in his area on the ground that the land is zoned for agricultural purposes. But the area he is talking about is actually zoned for agricultural purposes and the applications should be refused. But there has been no application and it has not been refused.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, 1 am not satisfied with the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary because he has not answered to the point.

The first point is this. Why did the Commissioner of Lands fail to consult or liaise with the Economic Development Board before he allotted resettlement land to the people? He allotted various areas to people at his whim and fancy, an-d later on when he discovered to his surprise that the areas were ear marked for development, he had to refuse subsequent applications for these areas. So the people feel there is injustice and indiscrimination. As a result of his mishandling the situation, our development programme has been delayed.

Secondly, why should the collection of royalties or revenue fall into arrears? Is it due to the negligence or oversight of the officers? The name of every operator of sand quarries is listed in the Land Office and he is required to pay royalties annually. So the collection of royalties should not have been left in arrears for five years. Can the Parliamentary Secretary be certain that he will be able to collect the arrears in full'? If not, there will be a loss in our revenue.

My third point relates to road repairs and road construction. It has nothing to do with repairs to houses. The Parliamentary Secretary has not answered my point. My complaint is this. Applications for road repairs and for the construction of bridges have to be cleared with the Land Office, because the areas are earmarked for development, before they are referred to the Urban and Rural Services Committee for consideration. It happens that the Land Office takes a lot of time to reply. The roads are in a state of disrepair and they become worse because of the undue delay. As a result, more repairs have to be carried out and this means more expenditure by the Government.

Mr Ramaswamy: In the resettlement of one family from Pulau Ayer Chawan to Pulau Merbau and other families to Pulau Merlimau, there has been no negligence on the part of the Commissioner of Lands and there has been proper liaison between the Land Office and the Economic Development Board. I will give the full details of this case, and I hope the Member will be satisfied.

In July 1967, an application was received by the Land- Office from one islander who had been residing in Pulau Ayer Chawan for seven years. The application was in the nature of regularising his unauthorised occupation of a hut on the island. The Licence Com mittee approved the application on 3rd August, 1967, and a proper house site was allocated to him on Pulau Aver Chawan. All this happened before this island was considered for an oil refinery site.

While this was going on, investigations had commenced to establish the suitability of Pulau Ayer Chawan as an oil refinery site. As there was the possibility at that time that the island would be taken over for industrial development, the Commissioner of Lands decided to freeze the position on the island regarding the issue of a new Temporary Occupation Licence to this particular person who had already been allocated a site. Therefore, this applicant was reallocated a site in Pulau Ayer Merbau. By March 1968, the suitability of the island - that is Pulau Ayer Chawan - as an oil refinery site was established. Therefore, it was necessary to consider the resettlement of all the nine families living in Pulau Ayer Chawan. It was decided to resettle them in Pulau Merlimau which had already been laid out as a resettlement area by the Economic Development Board when it had to clear the land in Jurong. As I have said earlier, the nine families were accordingly offered houses already built by the Economic Development Board on the island. Four of these fami lies have already accepted and the other five families have elected to have house sites only on the foreshores of the island.

On the question of the sand quarries, here again, I have to take up the time of the House to relate the history of the arrears of royalties. The Member wants me to give an assurance that the Government will not lose any money and that it will collect all the arrears. Of course, the Government or the Land Office will do all it can to collect the arrears. At the same time, as the Member has complained that there will be hard-ship to the operators of the sand quarries, we are prepared to come to some kind of arrangement to collect these arrears.

Let me go into the details of the sand quarries. The Sand Quarries Ordinance, 1961, came into operation on the 5th of December, 1962. This Ordinance requires all operators to be licensed by the Public Works Department. There had been indiscriminate removal of sand with harmful effects on adjoining dwellers, such as the drying up of wells, mosquito breeding, blockage and siltage of drains, etc. The Ordinance was designed to ensure adequate control over sandquarry operations. Briefly, it appears that following the licensing of sandquarry operators under the Sand Quarries Ordinance, 1961, the Land Office called on these operators to furnish returns on the quantum of sand removal. In 1964, all licensed operators were asked by the Land Office to declare their gross produce figures to enable an assessment to be made on the royalty to be charged. The response was unsatisfactory. Many sand-quarry operators did not supply this information and some forms were returned undelivered. Meanwhile, field inspections were made and consultations were conducted with the Public Works Department on the method and procedure of assessing the produce of the various quarries and the quantum to be charged for royalty. Unfortunately, this was not followed up.

An hon. Member: Why?

Mr Ramaswamy: That is why an investigation is going on now. In 1966, some operators were again asked to declare their gross produce and others were required to make royalty payments. Further representations were made that the produce figures quoted by the Land Office were excessive. Many of the operators claimed that the figures they themselves had quoted to the Public Works Department at the time of applications for licences had been deliberately over-estimated in order to ensure that they got licences. The sand-quarry operators have themselves to blame for this, They seemed to be very unreasonable. It would appear that between 1964 and 1967, there was an ineffective follow-up on the part of the Land Office. We admit this in the matter of collecting royalties and, coupled with the negative response from the opera tors, this has led to an accumulation of the arrears. Action has been taken by the Land Office to ensure that the 1968 royalties are paid promptly. The res ponse has been fairly satisfactory.

The Member has said that there are about 50 sand quarries. There are only 46 sand-quarry operators. Forty-two of the 46 operators licensed by the Public Works Department have paid a total of $106,709 as royalties for this year. Royalties amounting to $13,947 for this year are due from four operators.

The Member for Jurong spoke on repairs of roads. The Land Office has nothing to do with this subject.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): r Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary. Perhaps he has not investigated those applications for the reconstruction of houses which were refused permission. I hope he will give me a satisfactory answer that he will look into the matter again.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary has spoken quite a lot, but he has not replied to a particular point of mine. I do not wish to waste time arguing with him. I wish to ask him a few questions. The first question relates to the allocation of land by the Commissioner of Lands to those affected by resettlement to Pulau Ayer Merbau. Does the Commissioner of Lands know that this island will be used for industrial purposes when he allocates land to the affected family in Pulau Ayer Chawan?

3.15 p.m.

The second point is that he said that the Land Office has nothing to do with the repairing of roads. I think he has been sleeping. I have said just now that part of the land in my constituency has been earmarked for industrial purposes. Before any repairing of roads can be undertaken, clearance must he obtained from the Commissioner of Lands.

The Chairman: Mr Ramaswamy, can you be even briefer in your reply?

Mr Ramaswamy: The Member for Sembawang asked me whether I knew of any refusal of applications for the reconstruction of houses. Yes, there have been investigations. There have been only three applications from house owners on state land for the reconstruction or repair of their houses. Two of them have been approved. One application has not been approved because the applicant has not complied with certain requirements. If the Member for Sembawang was speaking about some other application, I will tell him that the applicant did not have the landowner's permission and the Chief Building Surveyor's Department might have refused to approve it. As far as state land is concerned, there has been no refusal.

The Member for Jurong asked me whether I knew that Pulau Ayer Merbau was going to be affected by some industrial programme. Yes, there is a proposal but Pulau Ayer Merbau's suitability has not been established yet. Investigations are still going on.

With regard to getting clearance by the Land Office for the repairing of roads which the Member for Jurong is complaining of, it may well be that the Commissioner of Lands has got to consult other departments, like the Resettlement Department and the Public Works Department, before the applicants can get the clearance. That may be the cause of the delay.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,096,530 for Head 1204 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1207 -

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 207 be reduced by 510 in respect of subhead 1101.

In speaking on this head, I would like to range over the general development of agriculture in our country. I understand that our national policy is to industrialise speedily and only thus can we have a future. At the moment, there are still about 20,000 people engaged in agriculture in our country. Agricultural produce is worth about $200 million per year. Of course, the actual figure will have to be estimated by the Primary Production Department when they have gone through the farm licensing exercise. However, agricultural activity should not be neglected in our economic development.

My point is that while we are industrialising, we should also pay careful attention to the development of agriculture. All along the Government has not been paying equal attention or given equal emphasis to the development of agriculture. There is a Primary Production Department but it is always passive. It may be of benefit to large-scale farmers, but it is not so to small farmers. The present farming methods are very backward and the method of selling farm produce, too, is not scientific. May I ask what kind of assistance has the Primary Production Department given to the farmers in this respect? At present kelong fishing is in a retrogressive state. Fishermen get very little fish from off-shore shallow waters. Many farmers and fishermen have been forced to change their means of livelihood and seek employment elsewhere. What kind of assistance has the Primary Production Department given to them?

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am quite aware that because of the weather and the condition of the soil, we can only produce certain crops to supplement our food. As for staple items of food- like rice and wheat, we have to depend on imports. The supplementary foodstuffs we produce are vegetables, fruits an-d tobacco. Our livestock is poultry, pigs, cows, goats and other farm animals. These are what the people need for their food. As I have pointed out, this agricultural produce is worth $200 million per year. If our agricultural production is in a retrogressive state, not only will we have to import our staple food, but we may even have to import our supplementary food. Every year there will be a loss of $200 million. If there is a change for the worse in our situation, we may not even have tapioca to eat. There are 20,000 people engaged in agriculture. How can our industry absorb all of them?

I feel there is a retrogression in agriculture. There are two signs to show this. First, our land is limited and land for agriculture is also limited. According to the 1967 statistics, the acreage of land taken up by the planting of fruits, vegetables, potatoes and tobacco is only 12,240 acres. This is about 19 square miles. The land used for animal husbandry is slightly less. There are no statistics on this. But, generally speaking, land for animal husbandry should be about six square miles. We can see from these figures that the total land taken up for agriculture and animal husbandry is about 25 square miles. More and more land is being acquired for industrialisation and for military purposes. There is also the question of urbanisation. There will then be very little land left for agriculture. Even the land allocated for each resettled farmer cannot be more than two acres. As far as I know, most of the farmers are allocated about one acre of land each. The land area for agriculture is, therefore, decreasing day after day. Consequently, agricultural produce will also decrease in quantity.

Secondly, because of the backwardness of their agricultural production and the unscientific method of selling their produce, many farmers who depend solely on farming as their livelihood are living at a subsistence level. Many of their children go out to seek other employment. For instance, many of them in my constituency have gone to work in the factories in order to get additional income for their families. It takes almost the whole day, from four or five o'clock in the morning until seven or eight o'clock at night, for one to engage in agricultural activity. Modern youths find that they can get a better income from other jobs than farming. They have, therefore, given it up. Consequently, there are fewer and fewer people engaged in agriculture. All this shows the retrogressive state of our agriculture. If this condition continues, then I dare say that our agricultural production will deteriorate.

If the Government is really sincere in wanting to assist the development of agriculture, then it should take measures to stop the drift into agricultural retrogression. The least the Primary Production Department can do Is to help the farmers to modernise their agricultural production and introduce a more scientific method of selling their produce. This is very necessary In the light of our local conditions, and is the only way to get the best returns from our limited land.

The Government has given great assistance in industrialisation, for instance, by setting up a Development Bank. The Government can also set up a financial organisation to assist the development of agriculture. This organisation can provide farmers with interest-free loans so that they can modernise their agricultural equipment.

The Chairman: Mr Ho, the head to which you are speaking is "Director of Primary Production". I do not think the question of providing loans to agriculturists comes within his province. Could you please relate your remarks to the head that is under discussion?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): According to my understanding, the Primary Production Department is also in charge of agriculture. I was merely trying to advance my suggestions on agriculture for the Minister's consideration.

The Chairman: Subject to your being correct, I have no objection, but as you will see lower down the Order Paper Supplement, we have an amendment relating to urban and rural services which, from last year's experience, is going to interest many Members. Could you try to wind up very quickly, please?

3.30 p.m.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, thank you for your indulgence. Just now I was talking about the assistance given by the Primary Production Department to farmers. This has not been without any faults. The Primary Production Department has not done well in disseminating agricultural knowledge to the farmers. Take, for example, the articles in the Bulletin published by the Department. They are normally quite specialised in nature. Radio broadcasts to the farmers are also quite sophisticated and the farmers do not understand them. I suggest films should be made showing the technique of agricultural production. These films should have an accompanying commentary in simple local dialects so that the farmers can benefit from them. There should also be frequent exchanges of opinions and views between the Primary Production Department and the farmers. In order that the farmers are not exploited by middle men, I suggest that an agricultural co-operative society be set up. The Government should assist in the organisation and administration of the society as the farmers lack experience in these matters.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Law and National Development (National Development Division) (Mr Ho Cheng Choon): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I feel that Members of Parliament of rural constituencies should understand that, in the past, our country depended on entrepot trade which provided us with the sinews of economic life. But because of the growth in our population, we have to industrialise at a quick pace in order to create employment for our people. We should not be under the wrong impression that Singapore's economy is dependent on agriculture. Our discussions should not be based on that and we should not view Government's measures from the point of view of agriculture alone. Unfortunately, Singapore has only 224 square miles of land. She needs more and more land for industrialisation which is more important than any other project. Therefore, the land that can be allotted for agricultural purposes is limited. This means that resettled farmers who are affected by our various schemes can only be allotted up to a maximum of two acres of land each for their agricultural activities. The farmers should not be dissatisfied because they must understand that land is limited in Singapore. In future, the Primary Production Department will introduce farming in multi-storey flats. This is one of the measures to remedy our shortage of land.

The Member for Jurong has just now mentioned that our farmers are quite backward in their method of agriculture and that the Primary Production Department has not looked after their interest and welfare. He also says that the total agricultural produce per year amounts to $200 million. If our agricultural production is backward, how is it that it can amount to so-much a year? This clearly disproves, what the Member has said. The reason is that we have been providing the farmers with modern scientific methods in agricultural activities.

With the rapid progress in industrialisation, many youths from the rural areas will have to give up agricultural activities and take up jobs in the factories. I feel there is nothing wrong in this.

The Member for Jurong has also-suggested the setting up of a financial organisation to give interest free loans to the farmers and the setting up of an agricultural co-operative society. As regards the agricultural co-operative society, I must say that the Primary Production Department did encourage the farmers to form such a co-operative society. This met with some success. But, unfortunately, the organisers lacked experience. There were also some irresponsible people in the society and, because of their improper activities, the society was not successful.

Generally speaking, the Primary Production Department provides the farmers with the latest techniques in agriculture mainly through farmers' forums, radio broadcasts and also through the Bulletin published by the Primary Production Department. This has benefited the farmers very much.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not entirely share the views expressed by my colleague, the Member for Jurong. But I think some of his points are quite valid. As far as agricultural research is concerned, I think we are doing quite well and the Primary Production Department should be congratulated. I am also inclined to agree with the Member for Jurong when he said that there is some thing lacking in the liaison between the Primary Production Department and the farmers. At times, the officials responsible for the so-called extension services do not appear to understand fully the mentality and outlook of the farmers.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the Bulletin published by the Primary Production Department. I think we must bear in mind that the majority of the farmers are not sufficiently educated to be able to understand it. This is the point made by the Member for Jurong.

I also agree with the Member's suggestion that in order to remedy the position, there should perhaps be regular discussions between the senior members of the Primary Production Department and the farmers. I am quite sure this will go a long way towards promoting better mutual understanding. Such sessions can be held at community centres and I am quite sure the rural Members of Parliament will be very happy to participate in them.

Adequate research and proper liaison is still not enough unless the farmers have the means to carry out the new methods and techniques which we are trying to introduce to them. The results of extensive research might very well be wasted. Hence the need for the setting up of a credit agency to serve the needs of the agricultural sector.

I am very pleased to hear that we are going in for multi-storeyed farming. In our agricultural development, I think we can draw inspiration from the success of Israel. If the land-hungry Israelis can, out of waste land, produce and export the world-famous Jaffa oranges, I am quite sure we can rear enough pigs and poultry in multistorey flats to export them to neighbouring countries.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am not quite satisfied with the reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary as he has not answered my various points. Perhaps he was not paying attention when I spoke.

The Chairman: Order. Mr Ho, I appreciate your difficulties. But if you look at the number of amendments that are tabled under "National Develop ment Division", you must appreciate that I have to give other Members an opportunity to speak. May I suggest that you raise this topic for an adjournment debate on the 23rd December, or the first sitting in January, when we can have a full debate on the agricultural policy of the Government?

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): We welcome his motion!

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I merely want to say something briefly.

The Chairman: Mr Ho, if ten Members say that they want to say something briefly and each speaks for three minutes, half an hour is taken up. That is my difficulty. By "briefly", do you mean two minutes?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Yes, Sir. Thank you for your indulgence in providing me with two minutes. The Parliamentary Secretary seems not to have understood my point. I was saying that although we are industrialising at a quick pace, we must also at the same time pay attention to the development of agriculture and not neglect it.

3.45 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary has said that there has been a great amount of agricultural produce every year. This shows that the Primary Production Department has helped the farmers a lot. I would like to ask him what kind of assistance the Primary Production Department has rendered to the farmers in the teaching of scientific methods of agriculture.

He has also mentioned the improper management of the agricultural cooperative society which was set up some time ago. That is why I have suggested that a new agricultural co-operative society should be set up with the assistance of Government. No forums have so far been held in my constituency.

The Chairman: Mr Ho, you have not indicated whether or not you are withdrawing the amendment.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to have a reply from the Parliamentary Secretary.

The Chairman: If you want a further reply, there will be a dialogue. That is what I am trying to avoid.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member for Jurong has paid attention to my reply and grasped my point, he need not have to raise minor points. If I were to give in detail the kind of assistance rendered by the Primary Production Department to the farmers in the teaching of scien tific agricultural methods, we might not be able to finish by 8.00 p.m. If he wants details, I may oblige him on some other occasion.

On the point that no forums have been held in his constituency and that improper services have been rendered, if the Member can supply me with the necessary details, these matters will be looked into.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, though I am not satisfied with the reply, I am withdrawing my amendment due to shortage of time.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Soo Peng (Havelock): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1321.

Sir, the abattoirs at Jurong were built on very lofty hopes. They were supposed to be the centre-piece of a complex of the meat processing and packaging industry in Singapore. The abattoirs were completed quite some time ago and yet they are not fully operational today. I would like to know the reason for this.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, in order to answer the Member for Havelock on the abattoirs, perhaps I should refer him to our efforts to get the fish merchants from Ellenborough Market and Beach Road Market to go to Jurong with which he is well conversant. Sir, in order to progress, Government has to take certain measures and these measures are usually not popular with those having vested interests.

As far as fishing is concerned, when we started this project of the fishing port plus a central market at Jurong, there was opposition from the Ellenborough and Beach Road Markets and several Members of Parliament joined in this opposition. Hence, the fishing market has not been started. The Ellenborough Market has now been burnt and the fish merchants are anxious to go to Jurong. So if there is any delay, it is not the fault of the Primary Production Department.

I give this as an example of the reason why the abattoirs at Jurong are not fully operational. Perhaps I should first state the facts. Cattle slaughter was started in Jurong in October 1967, which is more than one year ago. The slaughter of sheep commenced in early January this year. About 50 head of cattle and about 350 head of sheep are being slaughtered daily in the abattoirs. What about pigs? There was opposition to the move to go to Jurong and we have not yet overcome such opposition. The slaughter of pigs in Jurong - if I can call them rural pigs commenced in June 1968, and about 200 head of pigs from the rural areas are being slaughtered daily in Jurong. Pigs are still being slaughtered at the French Road Abattoir and about 1,000 head of pigs are slaughtered there a day. There has been strong opposition to move the slaughter of pigs from the French Road Abattoir to Jurong, as there was opposition to the move as far as cattle and sheep were concerned. All sorts of red herrings are drawn. One such red herring is that the meat of pigs slaughtered in Jurong becomes a little paler and this is bad.

I would ask the Member to he patient as efforts are being made to complete the transfer. There is delay because of the opposition and the further requirements demanded by pig butchers in respect of the slaughter of their animals. They want additional facilities and we are providing them with these facilities. They want a separate room to clean the guts of the pigs, and we provide them with a room. But I assure the Member that in five to six months' time the abattoirs will be fully operational.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Sir, the Minister has touched on the Ellenborough Market fish auctioning centre. He will recall that I was not there when the Government were trying to get the fish merchants out. I only came into the picture after Ellenborough Market was burnt down. I shall come to this later on, Sir.

The Chairman: After that, I may have to ask the Minister to withdraw, rather than the Member!

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: The Member for Serangoon Gardens has the written authority of the Member for Changi to move amendment (3)*. Mr Rodrigo.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Teong Eng Siong

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1501*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Teong Eng Siong

Sir, this concerns car parks and I have been asked by the Member for Changi to stress this most fearlessly. The result of the present trend in car parking in the city is the displacement of taxi-drivers from their usual yellow line parking facilities. What makes the situation much worse is that when licensed taxi-drivers attempt to park their vehicles in the paying parking lot, they are told that they may not do so. This not only imposes inconvenience but also hardship upon them. I am asked to try to adduce an explanation for this move. Why should taxi-drivers be urged to be continuously on the move throughout? They will have to stop their vehicles some time.

The Member for Changi has also asked me to remind the House that when the people of Singapore were requested to indicate their loyalty to the country, the taxi-drivers came forth with $100,000 for the National Defence Fund. These are values which the country should encourage and recognise. In view of the hardship that appears to be imposed upon the taxi-drivers without any rational explanation, and their response to the National Defence Fund, the Member for Changi would like consideration on their behalf.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to raise one point under this subhead, and that is the car park at the People's Park. In my view, it is not proper to collect parking fees at night at the People's Park because car owners already have to pay parking fees during the day. I feel that parking fees should not be collected during the night. For example, if the Minister wishes to buy something at the People's Park, he has to pay a fee for a parking lot. I think this will be a great inconvenience to him. Therefore, he should consider exempting car owners from paying parking fees at night.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, ever since the completion of the new shopping building in the People's Park, many people have been attracted to this area. We have provided about 63 parking lots there. The original provisions of parking lots was 63, but because of demands from various quarters, we have increased the number of parking lots and also introduced a paying parking system in this area.

4.00 p.m.

We have extended the time of pay parking from 9.00 a.m. to 4.00 p.m, for the first shift and from 4.30 p.m. to 11.00 p.m, for the second shift. As a result of the pay parking system which was introduced in October last year, we have collected about $40,000 in parking fees up to November this year. We have also been able to provide employment for about ten parking attendants.

Mr Barker: I will deal with the queries raised by the Member for Serangoon Gardens on behalf of the Member for Changi. I was asked whether I had a rational answer. My answer is, "Yes, I have a rational answer." But perhaps, as the Minister for Defence is not here, I should state in this House that the Government is indeed grateful for the $100,000 or more which was raised by the taxi-drivers. But I am sure that the taxi-drivers, who are reasonable men, will understand that because they made a generous gift to the Defence Fund, it does not mean that they should be allowed to flout the rules of the road.

Sir, the law lays down that taxi-drivers are not allowed to park in places where the ordinary man parks his car. The reason is quite simple. Taxi-drivers are given their own taxi-stands and you and I park in different places. When you want a taxi, you know where to find one. But the taxi-drivers com plained. They said that they might take a tourist to Arab Street where there are no taxi-stands around and that therefore they should be allowed to park in places where you and I park our cars. So the Car Parks Division relaxed this rule some time this year and allowed taxi-drivers to park in places where the law does not allow them to park. But they abused this privilege. Instead of parking there and doing nothing, they parked there and plied for hire from those spots. There are places provided for them to ply for hire. They abused the privilege after the rules were relaxed. As a consequence, the privilege was withdrawn. But the taxi-drivers continued to park in places where they should not park and, as a result, about 255 summonses were issued and now there is a lot of correspondence between their solicitor, the head of the Taxi-Drivers' Association, the Traffic Police and the Car Parks Division. Hence the query in Parliament.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, the answer given by the Minister was rational, but not rational enough. It was rational in so far as breaches of the law are concerned. I have been informed that this has been due to the fact that the lawful parking facilities that are normally accorded to taxi-drivers are being drastically reduced and that, as a result, they are forced to park in the parking lots meant for the ordinary drivers.

The Chairman: Order. Mr Barker.

Mr Barker: There has been no reduction in the parking facilities for taxi-drivers. I hope Members of this House will also be rational and reasonable. I also hope that the Member for Serangoon Gardens is not as stubborn as the Member for Jurong.

Sir, when we increase parking spaces in Singapore, we have to answer questions in Parliament. I remember answering several supplementary questions front the Member for Bras Basah who was very concerned that we were marking out more car parking places in various parts of Bras Basah. When we did that, we were criticised. But now an allegation has been made that we are cutting down on the number of taxi-stands in Singapore. I assure the Member for Serangoon Gardens that this is not so. Instead, representations have been made for an increase in the number of taxi-stands. They are being seriously considered by the Car Parks Division, and if a case is made out for an increase in the demand for taxi-stands, we will provide more taxi-stands. When we do, I hope I will not have to answer questions in this House as to why I am taking away some hawkers' pitches?

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of that explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1551*

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

I wish to speak on the subject of gotong royong. We know that the Urban and Rural Services Committee is responsible for construction work all over the island. We also know that a lot of money has been allocated for construction work, including road repairs, bridge construction and water and electricity supply to the rural people because of the Government's determination to improve their lot. The roads in the rural areas are normally longer than those in the city areas. Laterite roads are in a worse state of disrepair than metalled roads. The roads in the rural areas are not always kept in a good state because of the limited sum of money allocated for road repairs in the rural areas.

As a result, the U.R.S.C, started on a campaign of gotong royong, which means the undertaking of voluntary road construction and road repairs by the rural people. The advantages of gotong royong are as follows. Firstly, if the people are engaged in voluntary rural construction work, the Government will be able to save some money which can be used for other more urgent projects. Secondly, gotong royong will promote a sense of national consciousness and patriotism and foster friendship among the rural people. As a result of toiling and sweating on construction work in the rural areas, the people will develop a particular love for their areas as well as for the country as a whole. Thirdly, we know that the state of disrepair of rural roads is due to lack of care and maintenance. The drains are clogged and the water in them overflows on to the roads which are further damaged. If the people make up their own roads and drains, they will naturally pay special attention to maintain them in good condition, and the Government will therefore save a lot of public funds of maintenance. Fourthly, the collective effort of villagers of different races in a common endeavour will promote better understanding among them and help to establish a multi-racial society.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

4.09 p.m.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: The people in the rural areas have responded in great numbers to the call made by the U.R.S.C, for the setting up of gotong royong. The people living in Bukit Timah, Bukit Panjang, Tampines, Sembawang and other areas have already, on their own, undertaken road repair schemes and the results have been very satisfactory. But, unfortunately, I have recently been given to understand that the U.R.S.C, will no longer encourage gotong royong. I do not know why there should be a change of mind on their part. My guess is that probably the people in charge want to avoid the work that they will have to put in. They will have to liaise, organise, supply tools and take part in opening ceremonies. All this takes a lot of time and trouble. It is easier for them to ask for tenders.

As I have indicated earlier, gotong royong is of great significance, particularly at this juncture when we are faced with a standstill Budget. Gotong royong is, in fact, necessary. Therefore, I appeal to the U.R.S.C, to continue with it. They should not be afraid to face any difficulty.

I hope the Minister will explain why gotong royong is not being encouraged further.

The Chairman (Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng): Madam Chan?

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): I am not speaking.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, undoubtedly a great deal of construction work has been undertaken in the rural areas. This has had a marked improvement in the appearance of the rural areas. In spite of an increase in defence expenditure, about $2 million has been allocated for rural development. A sum of $12 million has also been allocated for the supply of electricity to the rural areas in the next few years. We should be proud of this scheme. However, I feel that the work in the rural areas is not progressing fast enough.

4.15 p.m.

Generally speaking, it takes about a year or more before work can be started on any scheme approved by the U.R.S.C. I think some improvement should be made in this regard. If the Ministry will note the administrative inefficiency or causes of delay, and take action to remedy it, I think work could be started earlier.

The second point is in relation to the rural roads. For some reason, roads in the rural areas are not as durable as those in other areas. For example, in my area, after a period of eight years we find a lot of potholes in the roads. It is probably because the roads were not properly made up, or it may be that the contractors did not carry out their work well and the materials were not according to specifications. I think Members of Parliament in the rural areas have received a great many complaints in this connection. The situation is rather serious because public funds are involved. We must see to it that the contractors undertaking road construction and road repairs in the rural areas carry out their work with materials that are according to specifications. All the Members of Parliament in the rural areas have their eyes wide open and you cannot bluff them, especially when complaints are forthcoming from the country folk. If any contractor is guilty of any failure to comply with the specifications, we must see to it that he does not do it again.

Thirdly, I endorse the views expressed by the Member for Jurong on gotong royong. I think the work done by the gotong royong people is much better than that of the contractors. They use materials provided by the Government. These are genuine and up to specifi cations. If the work costs, say, $20,000 if it is done by a contractor, it will only cost about $10,000 if it is done by the gotong royong people. The roads-too have greater durability. Therefore,, we have no reason not to encourage gotong royong.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, on the question of gotong royong raised by the Member for Jurong, the explanation is this. In the past, gotong royong members were charged with the responsibility of road building in the rural areas. The enthusiasm shown by the volunteers was very impressive. We were very appreciative of such enthusiasm. But the making of roads by the gotong royong members was not properly organised. For instance, in the first two days, the performance would be very impressive. But after the third day on the job, which would require a week to complete, there would be less and less workers. And the people who deserted their jobs included the M.P.s! So what did you expect us to do? The work was only half done when the workers started running away. As a result, we had no choice but to get in touch with the P.W.D. to engage casual labourers to complete the work. This was the problem we had to face. Of course, gotong royong by itself is good and it has significance. But the members of gotong royong were not able to sustain their enthusiasm throughout the period needed to complete the work. There was a lack of organisation. If the Member for Jurong can assure us that he can start gotong royong in his own constituency and make sure that the work can be completed according to schedule without any problem, we will have no objection. In fact, we will give him all the necessary encouragement. We will also encourage the Members of Parliament in the other rural constituencies to carry on with their gotong royong.

As for the allegation that we are not encouraging gotong royong because we are afraid of trouble, this is unfounded. As I have already explained, there is a good reason why gotong royong can not be encouraged further.

The Member for Sembawang complained of the one-year or more delay in the commencement of work after plans have been approved. We have approved seven plans in 1968 for the Sembawang area. Six of these schemes have already been completed. The remaining one is about 80 per cent completed. One scheme has not been completed. It was approved only on 6th October this year. They allegation of the Member for Sembawang is therefore totally unfounded.

On the other hand, I must admit that he has made a very good suggestion on another aspect. He said that the roads built by the contractors are not as durable as others. If Members of Parliament or members of the Citizens' Consultative Committees in their constituencies should come across work undertaken by a contractor on tender, then I would urge them to supervise the work from time to time. They could make a spot check, and the contractor would therefore do more satisfactory work. I have to remind the Member for Sembawang on one point. When a road has been repaired, the contractor doing it has to guarantee for a period of six months that any damage to it would be his responsibility. If the Member has come across any such cases, he can draw our attention to them. We will then make the contractor pay for it.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am still not satisfied with the reply given by the Parliamentary Secretary. He alleged that people started to run away when the work was only half done. I do not think this can he the general situation. There may be one or two such cases, but he cannot generalise and make a sweeping allegation.

As for his allegation about gotong royong, I would say that in my constituency we have on two occasions completed the work according to schedule. What is wrong with that?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Sir, on a point of information. I have many amendments which I did not move just now. I was hoping that the time saved would enable me to speak longer on Head 1207.

The Chairman (Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng): You are proposing to speak on amendment No. (9)*, are you?

• The amendment reads as follows:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $100.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Yes. But we have had so many amendments up till now. If care is not taken in the allotment of time, I will lose the time which I have previously sacrificed.

The Chairman (Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng): You will not lose it if you want to speak and we have not reached "guillotine" time.

I think we are running short of time. I wonder if Mr Ho would like to withdraw the amendment.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3101

Sir, we all know that a farm school was set up in August 1965. The main purpose was to give farm youths basic training in agriculture. With the knowledge and skill acquired, they could impart their knowledge and train the farmers as well. I understand that the Government is spending about $90,000 per year on the school. About a dozen graduates are produced every year. On the average, about $8,000 is spent on each graduate every year. This school also trains teachers in the rural areas. However, the expenditure on these teachers is borne by the Ministry of Education. I would like to ask whether it is worth while to use this allotment on this farm school.

I have a few more questions to ask the Minister. First, can the youths who have acquired a knowledge of agriculture from this farm school put it to good use? If so, can the Minister tell me how? Second, has the farm school taken any measures to enable the graduates of the farm school to return to their former work, that is, to engage in agricultural activities? According to my understa.nding, as I have stated a while ago, these youths for various reasons try to seek other jobs. This means that the $8,000 that is being spent on each graduate is wasted. I would like to ask the Minister to look into this problem.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the farm school organised by the Primary Production Department started in August 1965. Since July last year, there have been 63 graduates from this school. Forty-six of these youths were from the rural areas. They received one year's training. The other 17 were trainees from the Teachers' Training College.

4.30 p.m.

They were given a two-year training course. After this, they returned to the Teachers' Training College to do one more year's training. Now they have already become qualified teachers and have been posted to the vocational schools in the rural areas teaching subjects on agriculture.

As regards the other 46 graduates, namely, those youths from the rural areas, the employment situation is as follows. Thirteen of them returned to their farms. Seven were employed in farms doing farm work. Another seven were engaged in the fish-rearing business. Two were engaged as phar-maceutical salesmen. Six of them got other jobs. Ten of them took up jobs relating to farm work. There was one whose occupation was not clear. This is how the graduates from the farm school were employed.

The expenditure on the farm school for the three years 1965 to 1967 amounted to $200,000. On the average, for every student we have to spend about $2,232. This shows that the Member for Jurong was dreaming when he said that $8,000 was spent on every student. This is too large a figure. There is a great difference between $2,232 and the $8,000 quoted by the Member. I do not think that the running of the school is a waste of public funds. I feel that the farm school, under the supervision of the Primary Production Department, is able to impart agricultural knowledge to our rural folk and that it is very popular with the farmers. I feel that the expenditure on this school is worth while.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Parliamentary Secretary said that $2,232 was spent on each student. But I understand that ten of the graduates did not take up farm jobs. In this respect, we have wasted about $20,000.

I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman (Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng): May I remind Members that we have about half an hour left for this head and the hon, lady Member of the House has not had a chance to speak yet.

An hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3103.

Under this subhead, I would like the Minister to supply me with certain facts. I want to know on what new primary production projects will the expenses be incurred and what good will these projects do to the farmers?

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: Sir, the projects which are expected to be officially opened in 1969 are as follows:

(1) Jurong Abattoir and Quarantine Station;

(2) Fishing Port and Auction Markets at Jurong;

(3) Fishing Training School at Changi;

(4) Pig and Poultry Research and Training Institute at Sembawang; and

(5) Southeast Asian Fisheries Research Development Centre at Changi.

Some of the above projects have already been started but have not been officially opened. A sum of $1,000 has been provided for these official openings but this sum is hardly enough for one official opening.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3201.

Sir, the project of a Fishing Port and Auction Markets was mooted for quite some time. The buildings for these purposes at Jurong were completed some months ago. The Minister has told this House a while ago of the resistance met by his Ministry in trying to resite the fish auctioneers from Ellenborough and Beach Road Markets to Jurong. I am sure that the removal of the Ellenborough auctioneers to Jurong has been made easier when the Ellenborough Market was gutted by fire in January this year. Will the Minister enlighten the House on what steps have been taken in this respect?

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

4.39 p.m.

Mr Barker: Sir, as I said, initially there was resistance from the fish agents at Ellenborough and Clyde Terrace Markets. In fact, there was strong resistance and representations were made to several Members of Parliament, including the Member for Kreta Ayer. For that reason, the move was delayed. My officials have been very patient in this matter and have not used the big stick. Rather, they have used methods of persuasion and now all fish merchants are anxious to go to Jurong. But to show their bona fides and in order that the allegation is not made that the Director of Primary Production is forcing them to go to Jurong, he has asked them to pay a deposit of $500. This money has been paid and shows that the fish agents and merchants are not being forced but that they want to go. But then when they agreed to go, they asked for more space at the Fishing Port and Auction Markets, and this is being provided. I have the figures here. In fact, an initial area of 11 acres has been developed and another 28 acres reserved for future expansion. Seven hundred feet of wharf is ready for immediate use. The fish merchants want more office space and 73 units of offices are now being constructed for them. The building of office space is taking a little time and so also is the building of extra market space. But the Director of Primary Production assures me that these requirements will be met early next year and it is expected that the move can take place immediately thereafter; I would say, at the earliest, in January and, at the latest, in February next year.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3203.

Sir, this expenditure is for the Fishing Training Centre. I think the centre will be giving courses on deep-sea fishing. I want to know whether it will be giving instruction to the trainees on the use of weapons because, in the past, our fishermen have been threatened by pirates when they have gone out to sea.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Training Centre has not begun operations yet, but we expect to commence courses in the middle of next year. Two types of courses will be provided. One is a short course of three months' duration for people who are already fishermen, and the other is a longer course of one year's duration for those who have no fishing experience. For the short course, about 20 fishermen will be trained at a time and for the longer course about 50 "school-leavers", if one can put it that way.

The Member for Jurong suggests that trainees should also be instructed in the use of firearms in order that they can protect themselves from pirates when they are at sea. This would appear to be a reasonable suggestion provided the firearms are not used on Singapore island and increase the number of kid nappings that we already have here. A better idea would be to provide them with training in firearms not for use at sea but for national defence. We are seriously considering training these fishermen in the use of arms by sending them for a short period of military training with the Ministry of Defence as soon as their training as fishermen has been completed.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.45 p.m.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1207 be reduced by $100.

I wish to speak on the National Development Division, particularly in regard to the Housing and Development Board and the urban renewal scheme. I wish to express my views and also make some criticisms on these topics. No one can deny that the Government has achieved great success in its housing programme. Even some members of the Barisan Sosialis have admitted that the Government has been successful in this field. This success can be attributed to the efforts of the National Development Division and the Minister for National Development.

The Housing and Development Board has built thousands and thousands of flats all over Singapore. Generally speaking, the flats constructed by the Board are of the low-cost type and people in the middle and lower income groups are able to enjoy modern housing facilities. We can now see the materialisation of the Government's programme in providing low-cost housing for the lower income group. The Government has fulfilled its promise.

Since the standard of living in Singapore has improved, it is probable that those in the middle or upper middle income groups will be able to buy their own houses, and, in view of this, the Housing and Development Board has started the home ownership scheme. The tenants of Housing Board flats can either buy or lease their flats. But beginning from this year there has been a slight change in the Board's policy. I understand the Board have decided to sell as many of their flats as possible to the people, irrespective of whether they are new applicants or existing tenants. The people are allowed to make use of their deposits in the Central Provident Fund to buy flats constructed by the Board in order that those in the lower income group may own their own houses.

However, I wish to raise one point. Not everybody in Singapore has sufficient deposits in the Central Provident Fund to buy a flat. For example, those hawkers who are self-employed do not have any deposits in the Central Provident Fund and so they cannot buy their own houses. The same also applies in the case of widows who are riot working. Furthermore, those who are casual workers may not necessarily have C.P.F, contributions. As far as I know, the Government's policy is that all the flats, if possible should be sold. In these circumstances, I wish to ask the Minister what consideration will be given to the categories of people that I have mentioned. Will they be allowed to continue their tenancy in the Board's flats if they are unable to buy the flats they are occupying? If they are not allowed to continue tenancy in their flats, will they be asked to leave the flats they are occupying and move to some rural area far away from their places of work? in my constituency, about 90 per cent of the tenants living in these flats are rather worried about this policy. I hope the Minister will answer the queries I have raised.

Sir, the next point I wish to deal with is in regard to the urban renewal scheme now being undertaken by the National Development Division. No sane person will oppose this scheme, but the question is this. How are we to improve the technical aspects of the urban renewal scheme? This question deserves our attention. We all know that most of the people in Singapore are concentrated in the city, in areas around Robinsons and Collyer Quay. These places are occupied by large business enterprises, but the small businesses are found in Chinatown, in areas surrounding Kreta Ayer. The small businessmen in these areas have a long-established business inherited from their ancestors, and they depend entirely on their business for a livelihood. The premises in which they operate their business are very old and the rent is therefore very cheap. There are some misgivings among these small businessmen because they fear that their places of business will be affected by the urban renewal scheme. They are worried that if a certain area in the city is zoned for urban renewal, they will have to be resettled elsewhere. Where they will be resettled remains a question. In other words, there is no prior indication of where they will be resettled.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we know that socialist democracy means that the people must work for what they get. As the urban renewal scheme is being undertaken vigorously, these small businessmen have to be resettled elsewhere. If we do not pull down the old buildings, we cannot have new ones. I wish to elaborate on this point. On the principle of socialism -

The Chairman: Before you elaborate, may I inform you that we have just seven minutes left?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I will cut short my speech.

(In Mandarin): The people made sacrifices when the Government took over a valuable piece of land for the Golden Mile project. What did the Government give them in return? Of course, they were allocated flats and shop-houses, but they have to pay rents at about $500 to $600 per month for the new premises as compared with only $100 per month rent for their former premises. Therefore, they prefer to stay in their old premises. Furthermore, the new premises are in the outlying areas and so their business has slackened. Great hardship has been caused to these people as a result of the resettlement. We should therefore set up an agency in the Ministry of National Development -

The Chairman: Madam Chan, the matter is in your hands. The whole question is: do you just want to speak or do you want a reply as well?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Can I ask another two or three more questions?

The Chairman: You can take as long as you like until five minutes past five o'clock if you do not want a reply. If you want a reply -

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I will take one minute more and the Minister can then reply.

Mr Barker: The Parliamentary Secretary will reply.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, may I ask the Minister whether he will consider setting up a resettlement agency in the Ministry of National Development to look after the interests of those people affected by the urban renewal scheme and to consider the complaints and grievances of those affected.

5.00 p.m.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid there is not much time for me to reply.

The Member for Delta is worried that some people who do not contribute to the Central Provident Fund cannot afford to put down deposits for the purchase of Housing Board flats. I will enlighten her by saying that the Government will not force the people to buy their rented flats if they are not in a position to do so. Of course, the Housing and Development Board will reduce the difficulties to the minimum. The sale of flats in Delta is now in an experimental stage and has not been finalised yet. Only a proportion of the flats are being offered for sale. At the moment, we have 100,000 Housing Board flats of which only ten per cent have been sold. The Government does not adopt a rigid and harsh attitude towards the occupiers of the flats which we intend to sell. We welcome those who are able to buy the flats in which they are staying. But the Government will not force the people to buy such flats if they cannot put down the required deposits from their contribu tions to the Central Provident Fund. We can offer alternative accommodation to those who cannot afford to buy such flats.

The Member for Delta has also said that the owners of shops affected by the urban renewal scheme were offered alternative premises in out-of-the-way places and that they suffered a loss in business. I would like to state the policy with regard to the allocation of alternative accommodation. Generally speaking, the affected shop-owners are given the choice of locality to which they want to remove. Normally, we do not force them to remove to localities which they do not like. Therefore, they cannot blame the Housing Board if they make a wrong choice of locality where there are not many people and their business is adversely affected.

I would like to reiterate the policy of the Housing Board -

5.05 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Madam Chan, it is five minutes past five.

Mr Barker: Is she satisfied?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): How am I to withdraw my amendment when no reply was given to me?

The Chairman: In that event I will have to put the Question.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

The sum of $12,827,330 for Head 1207 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: I think this is a convenient time to take the suspension.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 5.35 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.07 p.m, until 5.35 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.35 p.m.

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 1208 -

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1208 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

• The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Tay Boon Too and Mr P. Govindaswamy.

Sir, I have some views to air on the subhead "Director of Public Works, Grade C". This department is spending a great deal of money on the construction of roads and bridges. In view of our industrialisation programme and national development, I feel that this department should have close liaison with other Ministries, such as the Ministry of Communications and the Ministry of Defence. Roads and pedestrian bridges are being built by the P.W.D, involving great sums of money. We often find that soon after the roads have been repaired, they are damaged again. They will thus need repairing again. The P.U.B, will dig up the road to lay down cables. In the end they will have to make up the road again. This will result in a great loss of money.

There are also certain hazards for road users under these conditions. Many accidents occurred in Scotts Road when construction work was going on there.

A pedestrian path was built along the road. One or two months after its completion the authorities found it necessary to widen the road. As a result, the pedestrian path was broken up. After the road was widened, the pedestrian path was again constructed.

The construction of side walks and roads costs a lot of money. If there had been proper liaison among the Ministries concerned, large sums of money could have been saved. They would not have squandered money in that manner. The construction of a road should not be done in an ad hoc manner. It is a long-term project and there should be co-ordination among the departments concerned to ensure that there will be no waste of public funds. In addition, there will be no traffic congestion at the places where construction work is being undertaken and there will also be less accidents.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I support the Member for Delta. The number of vehicles in Singapore is increasing every day. The roads seem to be getting narrower and narrower. They do not seem to be able to cope with the increased number of vehicles, especially during the peak hours when people go to and from their offices. The Government, of course, realises this position and has taken steps to wi~1en the roads in order to improve traffic conditions and solve the problem of congestion. This responsibility falls on the Public Works Department.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the engineers in the Public Works Department adopt only temporary measures to meet the present circumstances. Their only means of improving the roads is to widen them. Of course this will temporarily solve the problem of congestion on the roads. But in the long run, the widening of the roads is not a permanent solution as a means of improving traffic congestions. The number of vehicles is increasing every day. Does it mean also that the roads will have to be widened every day? When the engineers in the P.W.D, try to widen the roads every year, they should consider the fact that Singapore is only an island of 224 square miles. On the average, about 8,000 people live in a square mile. Our land is very valuable. The widening of roads will encroach on many other areas. There will be no problem if a place has few people. But the areas where the roads are being widened are usually crowded. Demolition of structures will have to take place. We will then have to resettle people to another place and also compensate them. From the point of view of the people, it is an encroachment on their right of property and freedom.

Let me enumerate the disadvantages of widening roads. First, it will cause a feeling of resentment in the people. When part of the land is affected by the widening of a road, the people affected will always find difficulty moving to another place.

5.45 p.m.

Therefore, they feel that the widening of roads will inconvenience them and they are disgusted with it. Road widening also adversely affects their business. We are aware that quite often a whole row of shophouses are affected and the shopkeepers find it difficult to carry on their business. As a result, their livelihood is affected. I wish to inform the House of an instance of the people in my constituency who are affected by the widening of roads.

Sir, parts of Paya Lebar Road need widening. At Paya Lebar, there is a road which is in two constituencies. This is rather strange. The engineer of the Public Works Department who was in charge of this project either purposely or unintentionally constructed the road to lead into two constituencies. But only the portion of the road in my constituency was affected by road widening. I do not know why this was so.

The widening of Upper Paya Lebar Road has created a somewhat odd situation. The main part of the road is very wide. But before reaching Paya Lebar Police Station, it is very narrow. Therefore, there is a bottleneck at this end and very often there is traffic congestion. And it will be strange if there are no accidents at this place. It is not difficult to imagine what will happen there. I have consulted the engineer concerned, but he evades his responsibility. He says that the plan has not been finalised. Until today, nothing has been done to improve the situation, and I am sure Members will agree with me that this is rather odd. If there is a bottleneck, how can you expect to have a free flow of traffic? Just fill a bottle with water, then plug up the neck of the bottle and try to pour out the water. See whether it can flow out freely.

In principle, I fully support the widening of roads. But we should take into consideration the topographical condition of the area affected. We should also take into consideration the financial means of our people. If the project is not suitable, we should think of some other schemes. For instance, we can build a traffic network above the ground or build underground tunnels. This new plan is worth our consideration. Of course, I realise that the traffic problem is a major problem in all big cities. In London and Tokyo, the number of vehicles cannot be less than that in Singapore. I am sure it is many times more. But I do not see how the roads in London can be any wider than those in Singapore. From this fact, we should consider our problem especially when it relates to the size of the land and when the problem affects the people financially. We should try to solve the traffic problem in this light. We must not be like the engineer who is in charge of the Upper Paya Lebar Road road-widening project. He ordered the demolition of houses as he wished.

Here again, I hope that the P.W.D, road engineers will learn a lesson from London, like building an underground railway system which, in my opinion, is a very good system. The underground tube system in London provides the major means of transporting millions of workers in London with great speed and almost without any accidents. It is both fast and safe. I feel that our engineers here should take a cue from them. I must say that Rome was not built in a day. Of course, time is necessary to solve the traffic problem. Anyway, we have to consider carefully our plans to solve it.

The Chairman: Mr Tay, there is one more Member who has signed his name to his amendment. And the Minister has to reply.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I have almost finished. I have only two more sentences left.

The Chairman: I am sure the House will be grateful if those two sentences can usefully be omitted?

Mr Tay Boon Too: Yes.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I only wish to say a few words. The construction of roundabouts at cross-roads costs Government some money and also causes inconvenience to the public. The demolition of such roundabouts again costs Government some money and also causes inconvenience to the public. I would like to know from the Minister if care can be taken in planning the roundabouts. One example is the roundabout at the junction of Rochore Canal Road, Jalan Besar and Bencoolen Street. It was constructed only a few years ago and now it is to be demolished.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I deal with each Member in turn? In the case of the Member for Delta, may I say that, in my view, there was much substance and common sense in what she said about the road digging that goes on in Singapore. When my pre decessor, Mr Lim Kim San, took over the Ministry of National Development, he was not satisfied with the combined efforts of the Public Works Department, the Public Utilities Board, the Singapore Telephone Board, the Traffic Department and the Registry of Vehicles at either digging up or defacing the road or drawing lines on the road. It was then common to see a road being resurfaced and then a week later another statutory department digs a trench either along the road or across it to lay pipes for water or cables for electricity, gas or telephones. The then Minister for National Development formed a committee called a Liaison Committee whereby the heads of various depart ments in the statutory boards would meet - in fact, they have since met every month - to co-ordinate their plans in an effort to cause less inconvenience to the public. There has been co-operation, but, unfortunately, it has not met with one hundred per cent success and there have been instances where roads have been dug up immediately after resurfacing. This is highly undesirable. Only last week, I had occasion to call the heads of departments for a meeting to try once again to co-ordinate their efforts at road digging. I asked them whether they all could use one trench. They said, "No." It was dangerous to put gas pipes too close to electric cables. I am no expert. Some had to dig one foot under the road and some had to go six feet underneath. And they said that they could not dig together. Otherwise the public would be even more inconvenienced.

To go back to the law, it provides for - statutory boards to dig a road as and when they please to lay a gas pipe or water main. I think the law is reasonable. Otherwise you and I will not have electricity, water or gas. So roads must be dug up. I think we must accept that. I can amend the law and take away these powers and only allow statutory boards to dig up a road when the Director of Public Works gives them permission. But what happens in the case of an emergency? What happens if there is a gas leak and the road is likely to explode? What happens when there is a water leak? Do we wait for a flood? There are cases of emergency which must be met at once. Hence this law. But the net result of this meeting was a decision that, when a road is newly surfaced, nobody can dig up that road without the permission of the Director of Public Works except in cases of emergency.

6.00 p.m.

I have given this direction and we will see how it works. There is apparently a considerable measure of co-ordination but in a few cases there is not. The Member for Delta has mentioned Scotts Road. She passes there every day and I am in sympathy with her. I pass along other roads which have been affected in the same way, and I am sure Members here pass some other roads, like the Member for Paya Lebar who appears to be against the widening of Paya Lebar Road. He says there are lots of vehicles in Singapore and we should meet this increase in our traffic problems by other processes, for instance, digging under the road or going overhead. He mentions London, which has an underground system, and Tokyo, which also has an underground system and a monorail system over the ground.

We have considered these possibilities. A monorail is a very expensive mass transit system and, for the moment, it is out of the reach of our pockets. The underground system has been looked into and we have the reports of several experts. I will not bother Members with these reports, but for the benefit of the Member for Paya Lebar, the difference between Paya Lebar and London is this. In London, when you dig, there is no water; but in Paya Lebar, when you dig one foot, it is flooded.

The Member for Paya Lebar also complains of the bottleneck at Paya Lebar Police Station. Last year he made representations on behalf of his constituents living along Paya Lebar Road who were very unhappy about having their houses or part of their houses demolished for the sake of road widening. This is natural, but I think I can deal with the Member in one sentence, by telling him that if all his representations were accepted, the whole of Paya Lebar Road would be like the junction at Paya Lebar Police Station. You will have a road which is in, out, narrow and wide from Paya Lebar Police Station to Geylang Serai.

The Member for Anson is upset by the fact that roundabouts are going to be disturbed. There have been other circuses in Singapore which have also been eliminated.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: There are so many of them!

Mr Barker: One of them is in front of the Istana and another one is Grange Road circus, and the experts have apparently changed their thinking about the Rochore junction. Recent traffic studies have indicated that an improved circulation of traffic can be attained by turning Jalan Besar and Bencoolen Street into a one-way system. For this to be feasible, the traffic circus has to be abolished, just like the circus in front of the Istana and the Grange Road circus.

Sir, may I end on one note by asking Members of Parliament to let me know if there is too much road digging in their constituencies, or a road just surfaced has been dug up the next day or next week. I only travel along certain roads. I do -not go to every constituency. I shall be grateful if Members will let me know if our road-digging efforts have upset their constituents so that I can see to it that something is done to reduce the inconvenience caused.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I think the Minister is at fault in one part of his reply. He, of course, has the right not to accept the repre sentations which I made on behalf of the residents of my constituency. But why does he not demolish Paya Lebar Police Station so that the road can be widened, otherwise there will be a bottleneck? The police station should be demolished so that the sides of the road can be parallel. The residents will not complain if the police station is demolished because it is on Government land. But it is the residents' land which has been acquired while the Government land is left alone.

Mr Barker: Sir, if the land on which Paya Lebar Police Station stands is to be acquired I have to take on the Minister for Defence. This is the first time a bottleneck at Paya Lebar has been drawn to my attention and I assure the Member that I will look further into it and perhaps accept his submission that the road at this junction should be widened.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1208 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1581.

(3) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1208 be reduced by $100.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Sir, I am not moving.

The sum of $10,006,150 for Head 1208 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1209 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1209 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 201-6.

The Chairman: Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here.

The sum of $25,709,650 for Head 1209 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1210 -

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1210 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Sir, we know that the land area in our Republic is only 224 square miles. But like other countries, we still have the division between rural and urban areas. According to a survey held in 1967, there are about 550,000 people living in the rural areas, that is to say, about one-third of our population is found in the rural areas. They live in unauthorised structures built some 10 to 20 years ago. They had no building plans for the construction of their huts or houses. But now, 20 years later, their attap houses have to be repaired and the same materials were used for repair. Since there were no building plans for their structures, their applications for repair were invariably turned down. The rural people then took the law into their own hands by carrying out the repairs without applying for permission to do so, and when the repairs were completed, the authorities served summonses on them. Action was promptly taken by the authorities to demolish whatever was put up by them. As a result of this drastic action, the rural folk are suffering great hardship. They do not know where to air their grievances. Will the Minister give special consideration to their applications for the repair of their huts built 10 to 20 years ago? There should be a relaxation of the regulations governing the applications for repairs. In other words, the authorities should not insist on the production of a building plan and evidence that the structures are more than 10 years old.

Sir, the next point I wish to raise is this. In rural areas like Paya Lebar these have been cases of natural calamities such as houses being crushed by fallen coconut trees and the roofs being blown off by the wind. It is, of course, not possible to stop these calamities but there is one thing we can do. In the event of such calamities, can the authorities give special permission for immediate repairs to be carried out without going through the rigmarole of applying and waiting for approval? Otherwise the people affected may have to sleep on the road or even in the pigsties before approval is finally given. I hope the Minister will, in these circumstances, give special consideration to such cases instead of insisting on compliance with the routine procedure.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Paya Lebar raised matters concerning attap huts in the rural areas. He suggested that attap huts which are in existence for more than 10 or 20 years should be given special consideration without having to comply with the normal procedure of application for repairs. I am afraid I am unable to give a definite answer to this query. But, generally speaking, the age of attap huts in the rural areas can be proved by the owners by way of rent receipts.

6.15 p.m.

If they are more than ten years old and require repairs, we will give consideration to the merits of each case, depending, of course, on whether the structures were put up legally or whether special permission ha-d first been obtained. I do not think it is difficult to get approval for repairs to be carried out if the procedures have been complied with.

In the case of damage to huts as a result of natural calamities, I think prompt permission is given for repairs to be carried out. This, of course, will depend on whether or not the houses are numbered. Usually special permission is given in the case of numbered houses.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, 1 wish to raise another point. The Parliamentary Secretary has not paid attention to what I said. I referred to unauthorised structures put up 10 or 20 years ago. This means that they are un-numbered, otherwise the occupiers will have no problem at all. The Parliamentary Secretary was rather cunning and equivocal in his reply. He said that it depended on this and on that. But when the application goes finally to the Chief Building Surveyor, it is rejected. Ninety-nine out of a hundred cases are rejected.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member for Paya Lebar will spend some time studying the existing regulations governing the repairs of houses, such as the Integration of the Local Government Ordinance and other related laws, I think he will appreciate that there must be certain prerequisites before repairs can be carried out. According to the law, the Chief Building Surveyor can give special permission without adhering strictly to the normal procedure for repairs to be carried out if a structure is in a state of disrepair and a hazard to human life. But an application has to be made, and we will give sympathetic consideration to it.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): In view of the satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,571,540 for Head 1210 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1301 -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Judging from the large number of advertisements of medicines in newspapers and magazines, one would think that Singapore is either a very sick nation or a nation that thrives on medicines. I am not objecting to these advertisements, but I would like to know from the Minister whether all the medicines advertised have any effect, even harmful effect, on the sick. Can he enlighten me on the measures being taken to eliminate useless or harmful medicines from the market an-d what measures are taken to test these medicines before allowing them to be put on sale?

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng (Joo Chiat): Mr Speaker, Sir, I understand that it has always been our policy to pro mote local staff whenever there is a vacancy and a suitable local person is available. I take it that this policy has not changed in the Ministry of Health, although Ministers may change.

I wonder whether the Minister is aware of the recent occurrence of a promotion exercise of the surgical staff in the Outram Road General Hospital when our local surgical registrars were ignored and the post of a Grade `G' Surgeon was given to a non-citizen. If the local surgical registrars measure up to the foreigner, it is possible that there has been a miscarriage of justice in this exercise. Perhaps the Minister can indicate the reasons for this occurrence.

The Minister for Health (Mr Chua Sian Chin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has said that people get the impression that Singapore is a nation of sick people because of the large number of advertisements of medicines in the newspapers. I do not think I can agree entirely with him on that point because, on the contrary, it can also be interpreted that Singapore is a nation of vigorous and enterprising people who try to exploit every means to effect a sale.

However, turning to the offensive types of medical advertisements, with the passing of the Medicines (Advertisement and Sale) (Amendment) Act which will come into force in the future, advertisements relating to medicines and- remedies for the treatment of a number of diseases as listed in the Schedule of the Act will be banned. In addition, it will also prohibit the advertisement of medical skills or services pertaining to medical matters.

Although there is no specific legislation requiring the testing and approval of drugs before they are offered for sale in the state, the provisions of the Sale of Food and Drugs Ordinance require that drugs conform to the standards laid down in the British Pharmacopceia and the British Pharmaceutical Codex which specify standards for a wide range of drugs sold in compliance with these standards. All drugs which are considered in any way injurious or toxic are controlled under the Poisons Ordinance and Dangerous Drugs Ordinance and are only available for sale to members of the public on medical prescriptions. These controls ensure that harmful drugs are not made available to the public except on competent medical advice. A measure of indirect control is also exercised in that invoices and drugs packages imported are checked to ensure conformity with our laws. If the Member for An-son comes across any drugs which are being sold -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I am not a drug addict.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: - and which he considers may be harmful to consumers, he can give me the information and I will see whether I can apply the provisions of the Ordinances which I have just outlined.

The Member for Joo Chiat spoke on the promotion of an expatriate officer in preference to a local officer. It is always the policy of the Ministry to promote local people, but it must be based on all things being equal. On the other hand, if we have an outstanding expatriate officer who is far better than the other applicants who may be local officers, we must adopt the policy that the best person gets the post. But we did not make the selection in the particular case referred to by the Member for Joo Chiat. The selection was made by an impartial body called the Public Service Commission and how they judge a person's competence and ability is within their knowledge and is not subject to question by the Ministry.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1002.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: I am not moving.

The sum of $6,592,120 for Head 1301 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1302 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1118.

The Chairman: Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here. Madam Chan, amendment No. (2) .

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1201.

I wish to speak on the services in the emergency war-d of the General Hospital. As outpatient services are provided in all clinics, the outpatient clinic in the General Hospital has fewer emergency cases to deal with. A person need not go there if his life is not in danger. But if he is a casualty in an accident or he meets with a sudden mishap, he is admitted to the emergency ward of the General Hospital for treatment.

6.30 p.m.

But the officials in the clinic appear not to have the correct attitude in rendering their services. It may be because the clinic is short of staff. I can recall several incidents. As a result of the shortage of staff in this particular clinic, many people who were brought there in an emergency died because they were not treated in time. Had the number of staff been increased, the mortality rate would not have been so high. The lives of some people might have been saved. We should provide the necessary staff for this clinic so that they can cope with emergency cases and render medical help to the needy. Otherwise we will receive more and more complaints about the services rendered by this particular clinic. I hope the Minister will pay attention to this particular problem.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, in reply to the Member for Della, I would say that it is rather interesting to hear her allege that, because there was a shortage of staff in the emergency clinic, many people had died. I am just wondering how she could know these people had died because there was a shortage of staff. People have died from other causes. This is the first time I have heard of such an allegation coming from her. If she had made specific complaints to me, certainly I would have looked into the matter.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I will provide the Minister with the necessary evidence later. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap (Geylang Serai): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1302 be reduced by $l00*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Choy Chan Siong.

Sir, hospitals and- clinics are supposed to provide facilities and services to people who require medical treatment. But I regret to say that these facilities and services are often not available to the people. As a result of the discourtesy and arrogant attitude of the nurses and other members of the staff - they sometimes utter unbecoming words - people who can afford it prefer to go to private clinics or private hospitals. They cannot stand the discourtesy and arro gant attitude of the nurses and other members of the staff in Government hospitals and clinics.

I would like to cite the case of a mother who took her child to a Government clinic for medical treatment. Unfortunately for her, she had forgotten to bring the child's birth certificate when she went to the clinic. She was scolded by the nurse who attended to her. The nurse uttered these unkind words to her, "Why have you forgotten to bring the birth certificate, whereas you do not forget to `manufacture' children?" This, Mr Speaker, Sir, was most disgraceful as the hospital staff are Government servants. This was embarrassing to the mother, although both were women. Such incidents have also occurred at Kandang Kerbau Hospital. I hope the-Minister will take steps to improve the situation and see that such incidents are not repeated.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I would like to raise two points regarding Kandang Kerbau Hospital. We all know that in the past a good percentage of the mortality rate was due to tuberculosis, but now in most cases people -die of cancer. Many women have died of womb cancer. This is about one-third of the female mortality rate. The situation is very serious. We do not know what steps the Ministry of Health is taking to remedy the situation, especially against womb cancer. In the case of tuberculosis, there is a semi-Government body, S.A.T.A., which provides facilities for the prevention and treatment of T.B. At the moment, there may be a cancer centre but the services rendered are slow. No prophylactic measures have been taken to prevent the occurrence of cancer.

I suggest that a cancer preventive centre be set up in Kandang Kerbau Hospital so that people suspected of having cancer or even people who do not have the disease may go there for examination. According to medical science cancer is curable in the early stages. I hope the Minister will set up such a centre in Kandang Kerbau Hospital. I know that the doctors in this hospital agree with me on this point, but, according to them, it may well be that the Minister did not set up this centre because of lack of finances.

Next, I wish to speak on the services rendered by Kandang Kerbau Hospital. Many pregnant mothers who went there found that there were not enough beds for them in the wards. Very often they had to sleep in beds along the corridor after their delivery. It would be several days before they could get beds in the wards. This is a very dangerous situation, because after delivery a mother may suffer an ailment caused by being exposed to the unfavourable elements. If there is no special care for these women after they have given birth, their health may be impaired and even their lives may be endangered. I do not know whether the Minister has any plans to remedy the situation. I hope he will give an answer.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I first reply to the allegations made by the Member for Geylang Serai. I cannot agree more with the Member that it is important to ensure high standards of courtesy among our public servants. However, I believe there has been an all-round improvement in this respect. In a large Ministry, such as the Ministry of Health which has about 20,000 employees approximately one-third of all Government employees there are bound to be complaints against a few employees now and then. Where details have been given in specific complaints, investigations have been made and appropriate action has been taken against the offenders. I can assure Members that should any of them have any complaints to make, these will certainly be looked into. In fact, the Ministry of Health will be extremely grateful to receive authenticated complaints. They must be specific and not general or vague, so that appropriate disciplinary action can be taken against the offend ers. By this means, the Ministry of Health hopes to raise the standard of efficiency and service of its staff to higher levels.

Turning to the question of cancer in women brought up by the Member for Delta, I cannot agree with her more that cancer is a major and grave problem in Singapore. Unfortunately, medical experts would tell us that the cancer research carried out up to the present has not been able to tell us what actually causes cancer. Perhaps the Member for Joo Chiat can elaborate further on this. Therefore, as long as the basic cause of cancer is unknown, preventive measures will, therefore, not be possible.

However, we in the Health Ministry have been giving a screening service for detecting cancer in women in Kandang Kerbau Hospital. This was started in September 1964. To date there are three doctors Cytologists and nine cytotechnicians providing this service in the Cytology Department of Kandang Kerbau Hospital. The staff are pooled together from Kandang Kerbau Hospital an-d the Family Planning and Popula tion Board, and screening smears from patients of Kandang Kerbau Hospital an-d selected cases from the Family Planning and Population Board clinics are sent to the Cytology Unit.

6.45 p.m.

May I elaborate by giving Members some figures regarding the work of the Cytology Laboratory in Kan-dang Kerbau Hospital. The number of smears done in 1965 was 464. In 1966, it increased to 1,744. And in 1967, it reached the figure of 3,957. From the smears which were done, 42 confirmed cases were discovered in 1966. In 1967, 88 cases were discovered.

The returns from the Cytology Laboratory of Kandang Kerbau Hospital concerning cases from the Family Plan ning and Population Board are as follows. The number of patients screened in 1967 was 5,713 and the number of confirmed cancer cases discovered was 17.

Sir, presently, it is not possible to screen all patients attending Kandang Kerbau Hospital as a routine step, and only indicated patient screening is practised. This is not part of the programme of any cancer research centre, although research pertaining to obstetrical and gyncological problems is going on in Kandang Kerbau Hospital. As the Member for Delta has said, it is possible to effect a cure in early cases of cancer of the womb by excision surgery.

The other point brought up by the Member for Delta concerns the services rendered by Kandang Kerbau Hospital. She mentioned that there are not enough labour wards in Kandang Kerbau Hospital. Of course, she would like to know what measures we are taking. I would say that, at the moment, the Ministry of Health is starting a Maternity Unit in the Thomson Road General Hospital in order to increase labour ward facilities. However, I wish to point out that the position is not as serious as it was two or three years ago. This is largely due to the fact that there has been a substantial decrease in our birth rate in Singapore. As a result, the pressure on the use of the labour wards in Kandang Kerbau Hospital has substantially decreased this year.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Sir, with the assurance of the Minister for Health that he is prepared to receive all complaints, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $58,472,820 for Head 1302 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1303 -

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Sir, on public health, I wish to express my appreciation of the Minister's enthusiasm in wanting to make Singapore a clean and healthy place for all of us to live in and for our visitors to be delighted with the environment. We all want clean and healthy surroundings. Who does not? In order to achieve this, the Minister will have to make laws. This is granted. Laws are necessary. This is all right. Such laws have been enacted and we have seen a lot of teeth in these laws. For myself, I have even found some fangs. This is not all right. I recall the Minister's statement earlier this year that he is determined to make this place clean and healthy. By this time, I am getting worried. My constituency is not a place which is that well off as first impressions seem to convey. Seran goon Gardens appears to be a middle-class area. But, in fact, there are a lot of rural folk fringing my constituency. You can classify them as poor people. My understanding of the application of these laws is that if it becomes necessary, they must inevitably fall upon the poorer classes, because the conditions under which they live are such that they attract the application of these laws.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

6.53 p.m.

Mr Rodrigo: I must state that I am mindful of the fact that the Minister intends to apply these laws, should application become necessary, only to incorrigibles. But then the conditions of living of poor people are not of their choice. When daily living becomes a matter of daily urgency, they do not tend to attach much importance to a little dirt around the place, because these are conditions which obtain daily in their lives. My fear is that they can be easily classified as incorrigibles and attract the application of these laws. Of course, this will make the situation much worse and create hardship for them. The point of this observation is purely to appeal to the Minister always to have this in mind, that laws of this sort usually apply to these classes of people, and to request that summonses for offences under these laws be issued only when his Ministry is really satisfied that the recipients of summonses are really incorrigibles.

The next point I wish to raise concerns what I may term the new expose that is going on around town, especially in the centre of our city. I notice that the concrete slabs which have all this time been covering the main drains in the city are being removed, and permanently too. Of course, there must be a reason for this. My first reaction is to ask why we are exposing the bowels of our city to the public or to visitors of our fair city. There must be certain hazards that the Minister is trying to avoid. But if the Minister's fear is rats, I do not see why large numbers of these slabs which cover the drains ought to be removed permanently. I still think that if his Ministry wishes to go on regular sprees of rat extermination, they can still do so without permanently removing these slabs. My simple understanding of city development, Sir, is that the drains in the city are covered. I think this is the development in large cities in progressive countries. Here we have a reverse situation where we are exposing the subterranean affairs of our city to public view.

The third point that I wish to raise is a matter which concerns my constituency - Serangoon Gardens. We have a market called Serangoon Gardens Market. To date, I have discovered that there are 51 vacancies in the market. For some obscure reason, the Hawkers Department in the Public Health Division has refused to issue licences for these vacancies. I do not know whether they are awaiting what is called a constituency-to-constituency registration of hawkers in markets. I will be much obliged if the Minister can enlighten me.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, during the debate on the Environmental Public Health Bill, I put a question to the Minister which was not answered. I think we were getting on rather late that evening and it must have escaped his attention. My question is on the disposal of rubbish in the rural areas. I was just wondering whether any plan has been drawn up in this connection.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, first, I would like to touch upon the first point which the Member for Serangoon Gardens has made. He said that the burden of the application of the public health law that we have passed- would mainly fall on the poor people. Being a lawyer, the Member for Serangoon Gardens should know that every person is equal before the law whether he is poor or rich, a big towkay or just an ordinary workman.

Another point I would like to bring up in reply to his statement is that it does not mean that the poor people are dirty and the rich people are clean. As a matter of fact, poor people who live in a humble hut can be very clean. In my coilstituency tours during the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign, I saw people who live in humble huts keep their places very, very clean. On the other hand, I passed big compound houses with Mercedes cars parked inside and I found that they were quite dirty. It is not true that poor people are dirty or will have dirt around their houses. I say that cleanliness is something which should be pursued by everybody, whether he is rich or poor.

7.00 p.m.

The second point I would like to bring up is in reply to the Member for Serangoon Gardens who wanted to know why the Ministry of Health has been unslabbing the drains. The answer is quite obvious. We have done so as a health measure to facilitate public cleansing, prevent choking of drains and reduce mosquito breeding. The mosquito nuisance has been in existence in Singapore for many years, but following the increase and rapid tempo of urban development and the extensive covering of roadside drains, especially in the more congested areas in the city, the preponderance of mosquito complaints from 1958 onwards has emphasised the mounting seriousness of the urban mosquito problem. There has also been a corresponding increase in mosquito-borne diseases in Singapore, especially over the last six years.

A recent survey of the breeding habitat of nuisance mosquitoes showed that out of a sample of 2,852 areas in which these mosquitoes were found breeding, over 60 per cent of such breeding was found in concrete drains and culverts. There is no doubt that drains are the favourite habitat of these nuisance mosquitoes, and where such drains are choked with refuse and have stagnant pools of water, mosquito breeding is usually prolific. It therefore follows that regular and thorough public cleansing work to dig up and remove the refuse, debris and silt from the drains, to clear choked -drains, drain off stagnant pools of water to ensure an unobstructed flow of water in these drains, will be a primary requirement in the prevention of mosquito breeding in the drains. For such drain cleansing work to be effectively carried- out, there has to be unimpeded access to all sections of open drains for the public cleansing worker to get into and to work in. Concrete slabs on the drains will deny access to the drains and will accordingly be physically obstructing and impeding this very necessary and routine cleansing work. As a public health requirement, drains should therefore not be covered and where -drains have been slabbed over, then such covered- slabs should, as far as possible, be removed.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens said that we should not expose the drains to the view of visitors. If we want a system of closed drains, then there must be a system of sewers as they have in other countries. But in Singapore we do not have such a system. We have only a system of monsoon drains.

The next point which was brought up by the Member for Serangoon Gardens concerns vacancies existing in Serangoon Gardens Market. At the moment, there are 50 vacant stalls in the market for which applications will be open as soon as the island-wide hawker survey, which was launched on the 2nd of December this year, is completed. It is expected that the survey, when completed around the end of January 1969, will give us an accurate picture of how many licensed and unlicensed hawkers in approved sites or otherwise are conducting their business. With such information, it will be possible for us to plan and suitably allocate stalls to the hawkers in the order of priority as follows:

(a) licensed hawkers in the vicinity;

(b) registered unlicensed hawkers in the vicinity; and

(c) other hawkers.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, to allocate any of th-e stalls before the survey is over would lead to difficulties later on, as more deserving hawkers are likely to be left out. It must be remembered that the long-term solution to the hawker problem is for all hawkers to conduct their trade within premises. Steps have been taken in this direction, and with the co-operation of the Housing and Development Board and the Urban Renewal Department, it is hoped that all hawkers will be housed in suitable premises in the next five years.

The short answer to the question raised by the Member for Serangoon Gardens is that it is expected that the 50 stalls in Serangoon Gardens Market will be open for balloting and occupation in the first quarter of 1969.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I think my query has not been answered.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am sorry that I have overlooked the Member for Jalan Kayu. The Member's query is about the disposal of refuse in the rural areas. It is indeed a problem. In fact, the officials of the Ministry of Health are working out the details and as soon as the plans are ready they will liaise with those Members of Parliament whose areas are affected. I am sure the Member for Jalan Kayu will then know more of the details.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am quite satisfied with the explanation and the answer given by the Minister, except for one very important point. I did not impute that poorer people are unclean. It would be simply unthinkable. What I did say was that the conditions of their life tend to attract the application of these laws, which is quite a different matter. But for the life of me, I would never impute that poorer people are unclean or unhealthy.

As a result of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1081.

The Chairman (Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng): Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here. Amendment (3)*, Mr Rodrigo.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I am not moving.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

The the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1831(The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong).

Sir, to save some time, may I seek your permission to range over the other amendment which stands in my name in respect of subhead 1871+?

• The amendment reads as follows:

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1871.

The points I wish to raise concern the hawker situation in my constituency. There is a hawker congregation at Old Kallang Airport Estate. Although 107 unlicensed roadside hawkers were resited at Guillemard Road Market in October this year, only a few cooked-food hawkers have taken up their allotted pitches in this market, whereas the other market-produce hawkers who sell vegetables, meat, pork, etc., have so far not taken up the stalls allotted to them in Guillemard Road Market except the two exist ing stall-holders. Prior to the resiting of these hawkers, this market was occupied by only these two existing stall-holders who actually used the market as their transit stalls. There are 34 stalls in this market and 32 of them have been left vacant for, as far as I know, about eight to nine years.

After the resiting took place, the majority of these hawkers, who now possess licences, have again resorted to illegal hawking on the Estate's roads or car parks from where they were earlier cleared. Some of them have migrated to other housing estates. During the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign the Minister for Health toured the market and he knew the situation.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, you may wish to know why these hawkers have refused to take up their allotted stalls and pitches in and around Guillemard Road Market. This market, which is an open-shed structure and can accommodate only 34 stalls (not counting the pitches outside it), was built probably in 1953 or 1954 after the completion of the low-terrace houses around Guillemard Road by the then Singapore Improvement Trust. These low-terrace houses were used to rehouse the families from the clearance site at Beach Road to make way for the erection of Merdeka Bridge. Later in 1958, when the Singapore Improvement Trust developed the Old Kallang Airport Estate which is adjacent to the Guillemard Road Estate, another standard market, now known as Old Airport Road Market, was also built. When the Old Airport Road Market was completed, hawkers began to desert Guillemard Road Market. Some of the hawkers took up stalls at the Old Airport Road Market while others who were not so successful took to hawking along the roadsides around the Old Airport Road Market.

Sir, I am not very optimistic about the success of any future attempt to offer the stalls and pitches at Guillemard Road Mark-et to hawkers, nor will they have any confidence in a market which was once deserted for eight to nine years. I do not understand why the Hawkers Department has allowed this state of affairs to go on for such a long time. It reflects on its efficiency.

When I was approached by the Hawkers Department in July 1967 on the problem of the hawker congregation at Old Kallang Airport Estate, I gave my comments and some suggestions on how to resite the unlicensed hawkers, but resiting was not carried out until October this year. The congregation of hawkers was allowed to continue unchecked. It was not until January this year, when the powers to tackle the hawker problem were transferred to the Housing and Development Board, that some action was taken. The hawkers were harassed and cleared. But harassing and clearing alone are not the solution to the problem. After some persuasion, these unlicensed hawkers agreed to be resited at Guillemard Road Market for a period of three to four months. When the survey of vacant stalls and pitches in and around Old Airport Market has been completed, they have been promised priority in the consideration of stalls and pitches at the Old Airport Market when these vacancies are thrown open for application.

In this connection, may I ask the Minister a few questions:

(1) Has the survey for vacant stalls and pitches in and around the Old Airport Market been finalised, and, if so, are they ready for application?

(2) Are there any previous applications from residents of the Old Kallang Airport Estate, and, if so, will these applications be entertained?

(3) Will additional hawking lots be provided at the surrounding concourse of the Old Kallang Airport Market to accommodate and resite more unlicensed hawkers?

I sincerely hope that the Minister for Health will give satisfactory answers to the questions I have just raised.

7.15 p.m.

Sir, I now wish to touch on Guillemard Road Market. I have just mentioned that any future attempt to offer stalls and pitches at this market to unlicensed hawkers will again be a failure because hawkers do not have any confidence in this market. There will be no business in this market as a standard-, size market, i.e., the Old Kallang Airport Market, is just less than 200 yards away. Although these unlicensed hawkers took out licences for their ballotted stalls and pitches, so far only a few cooked-food hawkers are doing their hawking trade there. They have com plained of poor business and sometimes no business at all. I doubt very much if other unlicensed hawkers will accept any stalls or pitches in this market that are offered to them. This being the case, I suggest to the Minister that he accept a proposal to convert this market into a recreational hall for the benefit of the residents. This at least will serve some useful purpose instead of allowing the market to be deserted again. In this case, the People's Association can be asked to take over this market and develop it as a recreational centre particularly for the children.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

7.18 p.m.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: May I also find out from the Minister for Health whether the Government or the Housing and Development Board has any plan to build a hawkers' centre in the Old Kallang Airport Estate to accommodate unlicensed hawkers?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, a month ago, the Hawkers Department of the Min istry of Health carried out an extensive investigation into the conditions and licensing of hawkers and the problems-relating thereto. Human beings are very emotional and sensitive. Therefore, the hawkers are rather worried about the investigation. There is a Chinese saying to the effect that when a dog raises its rear leg, it is an indication that it wants to ease itself. In other words, certain signs foretell what is coming. In the same way, the hawkers have certain misgivings and suspicions. They wonder what is behind the move to investigate their conditions. They know that un licensed hawkers are not allowed to hawk and that normally hawkers should have licences. So they suspect that there is something cooking because the Government is carrying out a full-scale investigation into the conditions of hawkers. There is talk that hawkers may lose their licences because they are an eyesore in the context of Singapore as a garden city and of the environmental public health measures that are being taken. This is what the hawkers - especially those who are non-citizens - are worried about. I hope the Minister will inform us of the purpose of the survey that is being carried out into the conditions of hawkers so that they need not be worried about their-future.

Another point that is worrying them is that it is possible that hawkers holding blue identity cards may have their licences revoked. I hope this will not materialise as hawkers with blue identity cards are, after all, long residents of Singapore. I have touched on this point some time ago in this House. These hawkers with blue identity cards are not able to obtain Singapore citizenship although they have applied for it. So they have no other alternative but to resort to hawking for a living. It is not possible for aliens who do not even possess blue identity cards to hawk in our city.

Will the Minister answer two questions: one, what is the purpose of the investigation into the conditions of hawkers? two, what is the policy with regard to hawkers who possess blue identity cards and will these cards be taken away from them if they do not have hawking licences?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will reply first to the Member for Mountbatten. He spoke on the unpopularity of Guillemard Road Market. According to him, only a few hawkers who have been resited there are still in the market.

Guillemard Road Market was built in 1955 at a cost of about $18,000. It was so built that it would be convenient to all householders in the vicinity as they would not have to travel very far to do their marketing. For some reason or other, this market is occupied by only 25 licensed hawkers although there is room, for a total of 109, and 102 licences have.~ in fact, been issued. As it is physically impossible for 25 licensed hawkers ~o cater for the marketing requirement$ of the people in the vicinity, it is inevitabIe that they will rather go to the Old Kallang Airport Market to do their marketing as every marketing item can be purchased there. This has re sulted in less patronage of Guillemard Road Market and, therefore, it is unpopular. This state of affairs can fairly be attributed to the hawkers themselves. It is a vicious circle. Unless all the hawkers who have been allotted pitches there go and occupy them so that a person who wants to purchase a list of items can do so in that market, it will not be desirable for the people in the vicinity to make their purchases there. Therefore, it is a vicious circle. The fault lies squarely with the hawkers themselves.

Another point is the building of markets which are rejected by the hawkers. The Member for Mountbatten has suggested that such markets can be converted for some other useful purpose. Land in Singapore is scarce. The conversion into recreational halls of mar kets which are sited and specially selected for their central location will be a sheer waste of public funds. Once the hawkers' survey is over, all vacant pitches in all markets will be filled and each market will cater for almost every type and variety of market produce. Those who do not take this excellent opportunity of occupying stalls in the market but persist in illegally occupying sites outside it or occupying unauthorised pitches will be prosecuted. It is, therefore, the intention of the Ministry event ually to have all the hawkers in Singapore trade within premises, otherwise Singapore cannot become the clean and green garden city that it should be. Further, it is ridiculous and unfair for the stall-holders in markets to pay licence fees if we allow unlicensed hawkers to hawk outside the market and steal away the business of those inside the markets.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I for one will admit that the hawker problem is a most difficult one. But we must be realistic and practical in tackling it. We must look at the long-term interest of the community as well as of the hawkers themselves. In order to attain these objectives, we have unfortunately to carry out unpopular measures. To quote a good example, when the Hawkers Department in the Ministry of Health wanted to clear the hawkers in the Koek Road area and get them resited at the Orchard Road Car Park, all of them protested. Some of them alleged that the Hawkers Department was trying to take away their rice-bowl and that they could only "catch mosquitoes" -in the Orchard Road Car Park. As Members know, the Orchard Road Car Park is now the most popular hawker centre in the whole of Singapore.

7.30 p.m.

We have to take unpopular measures at the moment. Some of the hawkers are perhaps short-sighted and do not see the advantages of what we propose to do, and invariably they oppose us at first. But, again quoting the case of the Orchard Road Car Park, I am told that not only are the Koek Road hawkers who were resited at the Orchard Road Car Park happy because they are making a lot of money, but there are many other hawkers also who are trying to get pitches in the Orchard Road Car Park.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we in the Health Ministry, perhaps unlike some Members, are quite prepared to take unpopular measures to protect the long-term interests of the community as well as the hawkers. We are not out for praise or popularity. We are not in this political business for personal gain.. If we know that what we do is right, we will do it. We prefer to be cursed now and praised later, rather than to be praised now and cursed for the rest of our lives. After the hawkers' survey, we shall work out a scheme in which all hawkers will be resited in proper premises. I cannot say that we can do so overnight. It will take some time. But we are determined to do what is right.

The Member for Mountbatten brought up the question of the Old Kallang Airport Market and asked whether there are any vacancies there and what plans we have to fill the vacancies now existing. Mr Speaker, Sir, the survey of the Old Kallang Airport Market has been completed. It has been ascertained that the following number of stalls are available:

(1) inside the market, 38 stalls;

(2) covered pitches outside the market, 115 day stalls and 194 night stalls.

As I have said, the resiting exercise will not, however, take place until the island-wide hawker survey, which commenced on 2nd December, is completed. It will be around the end of January or middle of January next year, depending on how fast progress is made. It is expected that the resiting exercise in respect of this market will take place in the latter half of February 1969..

The other question is, how do we intend to allocate these vacant pitches? They are as follows, in order of priority:

(a) Licensed hawkers in Guillemard Road and Old Kallang Airport Markets;

(b) Registered licensed hawkers in the vicinity; and

(c) Other applicants.

I would like to point out, particularly to the Member for Mountbatten, that it is advisable for those who applied for these pitches years ago to apply again, as some records were destroyed in the fire which took place in the Hawkers Department some years ago. This is to make doubly sure that their names are on record. The other point is whether the Housing and Development Board intends to build another market in the Old Kallang Airport Estate. I cannot speak for the Housing and Development Board. But I would like to say that unless vacancies in the existing markets are filled, I do not think it is justified to have another market built.

Let me turn to the observations made by the Member for Delta. She raised the question of what we intend to do after we have completed the island-wide survey of hawkers, and expressed certain misgivings on the part of hawkers at large. She said that they were suspicious of our intentions and would, therefore, like to have a categorical statement from the Health Ministry of our intentions. Mr Speaker, Sir, the answer is quite simple. As a matter of fact, before the island-wide survey of hawkers commenced, a press statement was issued. It clearly stated our intentions. I do not think there should be any justification for any suspicions of our intentions. If I may quote certain paragraphs from the press statement which was issued just before the survey commenced. These are as follows:

`The long-term solution to the hawker problem can be achieved if hawkers accept that it is in their interest to trade in proper licensed premises, such as markets, shop-houses and indoor hawker centres, which have essential facilities such as pipe water, electricity and other sanitary facilities.

The Ministry of Health, in close liaison with the Ministry of National Development and the Housing and Development Board, have decided to tackle the problem jointly in an effort to find a long-term solution to the problem. One primary objective is to ensure the provision of reasonably satisfactory indoor or covered accommodation to replace present hawker sites in streets and back-lanes. However, to what extent such facilities should be provided and where they should be located cannot be accurately planned ahead unless an accurate censorship of hawkers is taken.'

Mr Speaker, Sir, our intentions are clearly stated here. I do not think there should be any suspicions of our intentions.

The next point brought up by the Member for Delta was in regard to non-citizens who apply for hawker licences. The policy on this has been laid down with great care to protect the rights and welfare of Singapore citizens. Hawker licences for non-citizens already in possession of them are being renewed on a temporary basis, that is, from month to month, provided they hawk at authorised sites. This refers primarily to holders of blue identity cards, as applications for the renewal of licences of those not in possession of blue identity cards or with foreign passports are rejected outright. Moreover, a non-citizen hawker may transfer his or her licence to another member of his or her family if that member of the family is a Singapore citizen and is unemployed. The Government cannot in the public interest allow fresh applications from non-citizen hawkers, even those with blue identity cards.

The Chairman: Order. Mr Chua, you have reached your 15 minutes. The Chair must be as strict with Ministers as with Backbenchers on the Standing Orders. Mr Ng Yeow Chong.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am quite happy to hear that some concrete measures have now been taken to resite unlicensed hawkers at the Old Kallang Airport Market. But the Minister has not answered me on another point. Will he discard the other market or will he attempt to use Guillemard Road Market?

The Chairman: Mr Ng, I will call on the Minister to reply, but that is not a licence for him to speak for another fifteen minutes. Mr Chua.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: I believe I have already answered the question. Guillemard Road Market must be filled and, therefore, it will not be abandoned. As I have said, the Government cannot afford to build markets and then leave them vacant.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: As the man on the spot, I know better than the Minister. I do not think that the attempt will be successful! On that note, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong- That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1854.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ng Yeow Chong -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1871.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: I am not moving.

The following amendments stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff bin Suradi -

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 he reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2051.

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2071.

The Chairman: Amendments (6) and (7) . Inche Mohd. Ariff is not here.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1303 be reduced by $l00*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I will speak briefly. Singapore is a young country. Because of her beauty, progress and cleanliness, she has succeeded in attracting tourists. Nevertheless, there are some shortcomings in the rural areas. A few months ago the Health Ministry organised a "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign. It received an overwhelming response and full co-operation from the masses. This proves that cleanliness is accepted by the people as an every-day responsibility. Hence the success of the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign. However, a state of cleanliness cannot be achieved if we depend solely on members of the public to maintain it. The staff of the Cleansing Department have failed to discharge their duty on the grounds that there is a shortage of garbage vans and manpower. As a result, many places have not been thoroughly cleaned. Rubbish heaps have not been removed. It is, therefore, unfair to charge the people with neglecting to observe cleanliness when, in fact, the machinery for keeping Singapore clean originates with the Health Department. The Ministry for Health has seen fit to prosecute and fine only members of the public for failure to maintain cleanliness. But it has not taken action against the staff of the Health Ministry for their negligence and sluggishness in the execution of their duties. Mr Speaker, Sir, this is equivalent to the Malay saying, "A crab instructing its young to walk straight." I hope the Minister for Health will note this and take remedial measures to improve the existing state of affairs in the Health Department

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not speaking.

7.45 p.m.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, in reply to the Member for Geylang Serai, I must say that in Geylang Serai Constituency, 30 additional premises have been taken over by the Katong District Office and have given service since the new Local Government Conservancy Regulations were brought into force in July this year. It has to be admitted that during the year, there have been times when difficulty was experienced in refuse collection caused partly by the breakdown of vehicles and partly by the shortage of wagons. Some of these difficulties have been overcome.

Sir, if I enumerate the figures of refuse removed and the productivity of labour for the Katong District, it will definitely prove to this House that since the middle of this year, an effort has been made by the workers of the Ministry of Health to increase productivity. This will disprove what the Member for Geylang Serai has said, that the Health Ministry is not putting enough effort into making Singapore one of the cleanest cities in Southeast Asia. However, I am not in a position to give detailed figures.

The Chairman: At this stage, on the last day of the Budget sitting, I do not think the House wants detailed figures!

Mr Chua Sian Chin: But I can assure Members that the tonnage collection of rubbish in the Geylang Serai Constituency has increased tremendously in the last three months.

Sir, since the need for additional vehicles is recognised by the Public Health Division, approximately $45,000 is being spent each month during and after the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign on the hire of lorries to remove refuse. A case has been made to the Ministry of Finance for the purchase of 148 new refuse collection vehicles costing approximately $4 million over the next two years, i.e., 1969 and 1970. Some of these vehicles will be for the Katong District and will lead to improved services. The Katong District includes Geylang Serai Constituency. In the meantime, hired lorries will continue to be used.

However, if there are any specific complaints against workers who neglect their duty or do not work, these will be investigated and firm action will be taken. Since the Operations Room was set up on 1st October, 1968, there have been only two complaints applicable to the two sectors within which the con stituency lies. None of these has reflected on the work of the labour force. If the Member for Geylang Serai can give specific cases, severe action will be taken against the offenders. Sir, I personally welcome specific complaints and allegations but I do not welcome, to put it picturesquely, indulgence in belly-aching.

It is because of the shortage of wagons that the regularity of refuse collection is sometimes upset. However, when new transport becomes available, routings of vehicles and collection times can be improved.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Sir, I am satisfied with the Minister's explanation and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $36,331,480 for Head I 303~ ordered to stand part of the Estimatds.

The Chairman: The remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement are Heads 0102, 0103, 0104, 0105, 0107, 0108, 0302, 0402, 0404, 0407, 0602, 0802, 0804, 1202, 1203, 1205, 1206, 1211 and 1212.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Abstract of Estimated Expenditure on pages 53 and 54 of Paper Cmd. 27 of 1968 stand part of the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st January, 1969, to 31st March, 1970," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $892,503,120 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expend iture for the public services shown in the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st January, 1969, to 31st March, 1970, contained in Paper Cmd. 27 of 1968," put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has come to a certain resolution.

Resolution reported -

That the sum of $892,503,120 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st January, 1969, to 31st March, 1970, contained in Paper Cmd. 27 of 1968.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolution."

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution accordingly agreed to.