ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1970, TO 31ST MARCH 1971

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [3rd Allotted Day].

Resumption of debate on Question (20th March, 1970),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001."- [Madam Chan Choy Siong].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.41 p.m.

Head 0701 (cont.) -

The Chairman: The Question is,

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001."

The Member for Jurong had the Floor when the House rose on Friday last. He has only one minute left.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): Mr Speaker, Sir, I shall make good use of it.

(In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, just before the adjournment last Friday, I was talking about students being too busy to study because they have to take part in extra-curricular activities in order to get more marks. Sir, students almost have to attend a full-day session every day, so much so that when they reach home they are practically exhausted. Consequently, the standard of their lessons in school has dropped.

Another point I wish to mention is that the grading of marks for participating in extra-curricular activities is rather odd, and gives the impression of being unfair to the students. For instance, in certain extra-curricular activities there is no representative from --

The Chairman: The time is up. Mr Ong Pang Boon, do you wish to reply?

The Minister for Education (Mr Ong Pang Boon): Mr Speaker, Sir, although the Member for Jurong did not have the time to complete what he wanted to say in respect of extra-curricular activities and the manner in which such activities are graded, I wish to inform him that the problem is in fact, being constantly reviewed. Right now a new scheme is being devised and the Singapore Teachers' Union and the principals are being consulted. Therefore, if the Member has any strong views on the manner in which extra-curricular activities should be graded, I am sure he can put them forward through his own union.

Last Friday, the Member for Delta mentioned the provision of facilities for the training of kindergarten teachers in Singapore. Kindergartens in Singapore may be broadly divided into two groups - those which are run by the People's Association, a quasi-government body, and the private kindergartens. Teachers in kindergartens run by the People's Association have undergone intensive courses in kindergarten methods. As for the private kindergartens, the position varies from one institution to another. While the registered private kindergartens have a sprinkling of trained teachers, the unregistered private kindergartens, which are in the vast majority, do not have any trained staff.

In the last eight years, kindergartens have mushroomed all over Singapore. Whether they were motivated politically or for private gain, they reflected a rising standard of living of the people and an awareness of the advantages of a pre-school education in our highly competitive society. Furthermore, for those Asian parents who have not lost their roots in their own society and culture, there is a certain sanctity attached to scholarship. Any form of learning is intrinsically good and is rarely questioned.

The situation quickly lent itself to exploitation by profiteers and unscrupulous political parties like the Barisan Sosialis. Some of the kindergartens, because of the lack of trained staff, offered children a very poor standard of education and the results were sometimes counter-productive in the manner described by the Member for Delta. On the other hand, in the kindergartens organised by the Barisan Sosialis, the children were given indoctrination in Communist ideology. While the Government was not in a position to finance universal free kindergarten education, it could improve the situation by organising training facilities for the large number of untrained kindergarten teachers. And when a large pool of trained kindergarten teachers was available, the Government could introduce measures to require all kindergartens to employ only trained teachers. With this in view, in June 1966, my Ministry officials were instructed to explore the feasibility of conducting professional courses for kindergarten teachers. Owing to financial stringency at that time and also because of staffing problems, the proposal did not get started. In 1967, it was decided that the Ministry and the Adult Education Board should jointly organise the training course whereby the Ministry would look after the professional aspects of the course while the Adult Education Board would provide the administrative machinery to run the course. However, for some inexplicable reasons, the course did not get started until May 1969 when the first in-service course in English for 60 teachers in registered kindergartens was started.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in 1969, the People's Association ran 379 kindergartens for 12,000 children. There were also registered private kindergartens with a total of 175 classes for 5,000 children. The unregistered private kindergartens run by the P.A.P., the Barisan Sosialis, churches and other private individuals probably catered for another 20,000 children. In relation to the need in both the registered and unregistered kindergartens, the training facilities offered at present are grossly inadequate to meet the situation. The Adult Education Board is aware of the situation and I understand that it has decided to introduce a basic kindergarten course in the middle of this year for untrained kindergarten teachers who are not attached to Government, quasi-Government or registered kindergartens.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the question of abolishing post allowances was again raised by the Member for Telok Blangah last Friday. As I pointed out in my reply to the same question in the last Budget debate, my Ministry had made detailed proposals to the Harvey Salaries Commission for the abolition of post allowances and the institution of a unified salary structure which would include promotion scales for the entire education service. However, in its Report, the Salaries Commission recommended the continuance of the existing practice of paying post allowances on promotion but recommended that the Ministry's proposals warranted serious consideration. I understand that the Teachers' Union has since written to the Finance Ministry seeking an interview to thrash out this and other related problems. The Finance Ministry has again referred the matter to my Ministry. It is now left with the Teachers' Union to start the rigmarole once again. My views on this question are quite clear. As the Member for Telok Blangah is aware, in the new promotion posts created in the Technical Education Department, for instance, principals and vice-principals of vocational institutes and industrial training centres, there are no post allowances attached.

As for the proposal to have an assistant principal in place of a senior assistant in schools, I am afraid no progress has been made. The Member for Telok Blangah, I am sure, is not unaware of the fact that in all salary matters and creation of new posts, more than one Ministry is involved.

The Member for Telok Blangah complained that primary school teachers have to attend courses in health education and that such courses have been conducted by unqualified teachers. Mr Speaker, Sir, it has been felt for some time that the best way to inculcate sound health habits is to begin with the young children in schools. It is with this in view that a refresher course in health education is being organised for primary school teachers to bring them up to date in respect of health matters so that they will be in a better position to stimulate greater health consciousness among school children. The lectures are delivered by teachers who have previously attended an intensive course on general and dental health education. However, in view of the large number involved and the shortage of doctors qualified to teach the subject, the Ministry has to make do with such teachers.

Both the Member for Telok Blangah and the Member for Jurong touched on the duties of Inspectors of Schools. Briefly, it is the duty of inspectors to improve the quality of teaching in all our schools. To achieve this, they visit teachers in schools to offer advice and assistance when necessary. After observing the teachers, they generally hold short discussions with them to stimulate new ideas and approaches to effective teaching, the use of teaching aids, up-to-date information on such matters, methodology and problems arising out of their work. The inspectors are also required to assess the work of teachers who have to satisfy certain service requirements from time to time; for example, crossing efficiency bars or confirmation in the service. However, as the Member for Telok Blangah has pointed out, the Inspectorate staff has not been increased over the years while the student enrolment has gone up. As a result, the inspectors of Schools cannot devote as much time to professional and service matters as they should. This has led to the allegation by the Member for Jurong that the inspectors were feared rather than respected by the teachers. I believe that with the general improvement in the quality of teaching and as our inspectors gain in experience and possibly with some additions to the inspectorate staff, a better relationship between the inspectors and teachers can be achieved.

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, allow me to congratulate the Ministry of Education on having at last realised the need to abolish post allowances. Sir, they have started off with technical schools. Having done so, I do not see why promotion posts in other schools still carry post allowances. I realise that this is not just a matter between the Ministry of Education and the Singapore Teachers' Union. I realise that the Treasury is also involved. Sir, you have just heard that the Teachers' Union, after having had a bash at the Ministry of Education, has had a bash at the Treasury. What has the Treasury done? It has referred the matter back to the Ministry of Education. Sir, we cannot just kick the ball about. It is about time that the Ministry of Education and the Treasury decided to rectify this anomaly which the Minister for Education knows has been in existence for the last 20 years. Now the ball is at the foot of the Ministry of Education. And it says that it is waiting for the Teachers' Union to make representations again. Sir, representations have been made over and over again. How much longer are we to wait? The same questions were raised by my colleague, the Member for Punggol, during the debate on the 1967 Estimates. Are we going to wait for next year for the same problem to crop up? Sir, on the question of post allowances and also allowances for senior assistants, I urge the Ministry of Education to pursue actively these matters in the course of this year. And I hope I will not have reason to speak on this again when we meet next year to debate the Estimates.

The Chairman: Mr N. Govindasamy, I am sure the Minister has taken note of what you have said.

Mr N. Govindasamy: I hope so, Sir.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, are you withdrawing your amendment?

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): (In Mandarin): Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I wish to say a few words. The Minister for Education has said that, in view of the present financial position, it is not possible to conduct training courses for kindergarten teachers at present. Sir, with the help of the Teachers' Training College and the Technical Education Department, perhaps some training courses can be arranged for kindergarten teachers. As we all know that children are the future pillars of our society, they should be well educated while they are young. For instance, if we plant a tree and we do not give it enough nourishment or fertiliser, it will not live up to expectations. In the end, whatever effort and energy we spend on cultivating it will be lost. Therefore, if we want to have good fruits, we must have good trees. It is necessary to provide the trees with enough fertiliser during the early stages. If the Government thinks that there is not enough money to conduct training courses for kindergarten teachers, then perhaps it can take other alternative measures. For instance, kindergarten teachers can pay for the training which is organised for them.

The Chairman: I am sure the Minister would love to answer Madam Chan's questions!

3.00 p.m.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, my criticism was that the course for the training of kindergarten teachers had not started earlier and expanded to the scale that I would like to see it expanded. In fact, I shall be pursuing quite energetically this question of training kindergarten teachers in the next few months.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead l005*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Teong Eng Siong, Mr Ang Nam Piau, Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon, Mr J. F. Conceicao and Mr P. Selvadurai)

Mr Speaker, Sir, in the last ten years there has been tremendous progress in the development of education in the Republic, and many kinds of reform have been carried out. However, the same cannot be said about educational research. There is a distinct lack of advance in this field. This aspect has been neglected. Is it right that we should neglect it? I think we should give more thought to it.

In January 1968, there was a seminar on education which was attended by teachers from all schools. There was a suggestion to set up an educational research centre. This was accepted at the preliminary meeting of the seminar, and was subsequently submitted to the Ministry for consideration. However, no one is in a position to know what is the outcome of this suggestion.

Following this, there was a suggestion in this House in May 1968 that every encouragement should be given to set up an educational research centre. The reason why I am touching on this point is that I feel that research in education plays a very important role in the development of our national education. Let us take a look at our educational development. We have carried out many educational reforms. Many of them are novel in nature, but this does not mean that all of them are good. I had occasion to read an article on educational research. Sir, permit me to quote one or two sentences from this particular article. This article says that we have a fine set of educational theory, but we lack systematic and scientific research in education. Advancement in education must be matched by advancement in educational research.

The Chairman: Which publication are you referring to, Mr Tay?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): I am referring to an article in a booklet published by the T.T.C.

The Chairman: Is this booklet with you? Do you have the particulars of the book; for example, the year of publication and the volume number, so that the Minister can refer to it later

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): At present I do not have this publication with me, but if the Minister requires it, I will give it to him later on.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the two sentences that I quoted just now were in regard to the importance of research in education. My main point is to emphasise that research in education should also be carried out.

Let us look at the educational reforms which have been carried out. For example, the system of integrated schools, the teaching of Civics and History in Chinese in English Schools, and the teaching of Mathematics and Science in English in Chinese schools. All these are important educational reforms. They not only reflect our educational policy, but they are also part of our national policy. They go to prove that our educational objectives are ideal, but they do not prove that we have rational and scientific research in education.

Mr Speaker, Sir, allow me to make certain criticisms of the policy of teaching Mathematics and Science through the use of English in Chinese schools. What is the objective of this reform? When defining the objective of bilingualism some two years ago, the Minister for Education stated that we have been trying to carry out the teaching of Mathematics and Science in English in non-English schools, and the result of this experiment has been very encouraging. This is but a start towards the objectives that we have for our educational reforms. Our belief is that, apart from teaching the second language as a subject, and using it as a medium of instruction to teach other subjects, it will help in better progress in mastering the language. No doubt, the Research and Statistics Unit in the Ministry of Education has conducted a survey into the teaching of Mathematics and Science in Government Chinese Primary schools in Primary one and two classes. As the Minister has said, the result of this experiment has been very encouraging. However, the report of this survey has now been shelved and kept as a highly confidential document. Ordinary people are not in a position to know what its contents are.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I may be ignorant of matters pertaining to education, but why is it that such a survey, which has a grave bearing on our educational reform, should select only certain Government schools for this experiment? I ask the Minister these questions. How many Government schools were selected for such a survey, and what was the number of Primary one and two pupils involved in it? Were the conclusions of this survey applied to all Chinese Primary schools? Furthermore, the statement is made that in addition to teaching the second language as a second language, if it is also used as a medium of instruction to teach other subjects, it will result in better progress in mastering the language. This means that if we use the second language to teach other subjects, it will help our pupils to acquire knowledge of the second language in a shorter time. This is only a hypothetical assumption. There is no evidence to show that this is the result of the experiment. In my view, the printed language is only a tool, and the ability to use any language is the ability to manipulate a skill. Let us call it a "printed language". On the other hand, from the point of view of teaching Mathematics, mathematical symbols are also a kind of tool. Let us call it "mathematical language". The question is this: is it true that the teaching of Mathematics in a certain language will result in a better mastery of that language? I think this question merits our detailed study. The teaching of Mathematics and Science through the use of English in Chinese schools is already an accomplished fact. I have no intention to reopen here the debate on the merits and demerits of this policy, but certain questions arise. We have carried out many educational reforms, and we must be courageous enough to admit that not all of them have been successful. Our vocational schools are examples of the failure of one of our reforms. We should not embark upon a reform in haste without taking into consideration all the relevant factors. More important, it is not enough just to have an educational ideology. It must be complemented and supported by scientific, rational and systematic research into education, otherwise the time and money spent will be wasted. It will be not a boon but a bane to our educational system. To embark upon reforms in education is, I feel, a question of principle, but how these reforms are to be carried out and what results they will bring is a question of detail. I believe there are people who share my sentiments that educational reforms must be matched and supported by educational research.

Lastly, may I be allowed to pose three questions? Firstly, since the Government has carried out a survey into the teaching of Mathematics and Science in English in Government Chinese Primary schools, are the conclusions of this experiment valid for all Chinese Primary schools?

3.15 p.m.

Secondly, is there a need to reassess the policy of teaching Mathematics and Science in the English language in Chinese schools? Thirdly, what are the prospects of setting up a National Education Research Centre?

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, everyone knows that we practise equality in all the four streams of education. In the last few years, we have placed emphasis on technical education so that more technical personnel can be trained to meet the requirements of our industrialisation programme.

I would now like to talk on vocational and technical education. There are limited places in the institutes for technical education. According to statistics, the enrolment this year is about 8,000 students. However, the institutes are only able to absorb about 1,000 students, and about 7,000 students are unable to get places in these institutes. Can the Minister inform me how many places are available in the technical institutes?

Sir, as we require a great number of technical personnel at this time, we must set up more technical schools so that we will be able to produce in the shortest possible time the necessary technical personnel that we need. I remember the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education saying that about 35,000 technical personnel will be trained in two or three years. But if we can only enrol about 1,000 students at present, the training of 35,000 technical personnel will take about 30 years. By that time, our factories will have closed down, or we will have to recruit more and more technicians from abroad. This is a matter of crucial importance, and I do not know if the Minister has any new plans on the training of technical personnel.

Another problem is the special classes conducted by the Adult Education Board. These special classes, of course, are commendable because they are able to cater for the thousands of students who are not able to go to secondary schools. Their ages range from 14 to 15, and the Government has set up these classes so as to give them certain technical training to enable them to acquire certain skills which will be useful to them when they go on to the labour market. However, what is regrettable is that these classes are mostly concentrated in urban schools. In many schools in the rural areas, for example, in Sembawang and Nee Soon, such classes have not been set up. It is, therefore, very inconvenient for those who live in the rural areas to attend these classes in the city, and the expenses incurred on transport will be an extra burden on their parents. I would like to plead for those students who live in the rural areas, and urge the Ministry of Education to consider setting up such special classes in the rural areas in order to cope with the demand.

The other question is about food stalls in school tuckshops. I have received many complaints from stallholders who are licensed to sell food and drinks to school children. One complaint is that the rental is too high. For example, a stall selling sweets at 5 cents or 10 cents has to pay a monthly rent of $20 to $30. Their profit is very small, and with such high rentals, it is impossible for them to earn a livelihood. I hope the Minister will consider reducing the rentals for such stalls. We know that most of these stallholders are former recipients of public assistance from the Social Welfare Department. The rule is that if they are given a stall licence, they will not receive any public assistance. Having set up a stall in a school tuckshop, they have to make a certain amount of profit in order to support their families. Therefore, I hope the Ministry will consider their hardship and be sympathetic to their case.

The other complaint of the stallholders is about the change in regulations. For example, take a stall that sells fried mee. It happens that the school principal is changed. The stall-holder is told that he can sell only fried mee and not mee soup. I hope that such regulations are not changed every now and then so that no inconvenience is caused to the stallholders.

The last point that I would like the Minister to clarify is the question of setting up a Chinese language study centre. I remember this question was also raised in the debate on the last Budget. The Minister then agreed, in principle, to set up a Chinese language study centre. Today, after a lapse of one year, can he tell us what are the plans for setting up this centre, and what progress has been made?

Mr Ang Nam Piau (Thomson): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister whether last year his Ministry has received complaints from principals, parents, or members of the public about the inefficiency of English teachers in Chinese schools. These English teachers often adopt an unco-operative attitude towards the principal. They also physically punish the students without the consent of the principal. They also often make applications for transfer back to English schools. If there are, in fact, such complaints, I would like to ask the Minister what steps he proposes to take against these irresponsible English teachers.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (Tiong Bahru): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have only one question to ask of the Minister for Education. I notice that in the provision for salaries of secondary school principals, the salary scale for the principals of Raffles Institution and Raffles Girls' School is higher than that for the other 54 school principals. If these 54 principals carry out the same work as that of the principals of Raffles Institution and Raffles Girls' School, why is it necessary to have a difference in their salary scales? Does the Government propose to convert these two schools into junior colleges?

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to refer to one of the topics which the Member for Paya Lebar has brought up in his comments on this subhead. It is the policy of the Ministry of Education that Mathematics and Science should be taught in English in non-English medium schools, and that Civics and History should be taught, for example, in English-medium schools, in the second language.

I support this policy of bilingualism. For that reason, Sir, I would like to know if there are enough teachers able to teach Science and Mathematics in English in non-English medium schools. Further, I hope that every effort is being made to improve the quality of English used in non-English medium schools so that pupils may not be at a disadvantage in their study of Mathematics and Science. In addition, I hope there will be enough teachers trained in History and Civics who will be able to teach these subjects in the second language in English-medium schools.

There is a fear that teachers teaching the subjects would be language teachers instead of teachers who are adequately equipped with a knowledge of History and Civics, and that the emphasis would be on language teaching although this is a laudable aim, rather than on the teaching of Civics and History.

3.30 p.m.

There is another point, Sir, which I would like to raise. I have some matters to bring up under subhead 1111, for which I have an amendment standing in my name. This topic of research has already been touched upon by the Member for Paya Lebar, and with your permission, may I also touch on it?

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting will also be speaking on subhead 1111. I think we had better wait until we come to that subhead.

Mr Conceicao: I will leave the decision to you, Sir.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I hope the Minister for Education will consider two points which I am going to raise.

First, in answer to a question in this House on the 9th of this month, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education said that he was aware of the inconvenience experienced by the parents of students when they were asked to produce certain documents at the commencement of each school year. These documents are necessary because class teachers are required to fill in the attendance register many details concerning the students and their parents or guardians. There is also a standing instruction that there must be no eraser marks in the register, and no unnecessary cancellation of words wrongly written. Filling in the entries in the attendance register is one of the factors whereby school inspectors assess the teachers' efficiency. Consequently, the teachers cannot help but check all the relevant documents meticulously before they enter the particulars in the attendance register. Teachers, therefore, have to spend a lot of time and energy in order to get the register accurate and up to date. However, if it really serves some practical purpose, there is nothing to be said about it. But, as the name implies, the attendance register is mainly used for recording the students' attendance. The detailed particulars of the students and their parents which have been entered in the register at so much sacrifice of time and energy are seldom, if ever, used. Should the occasion arise when such information is really necessary, it can easily be found in the students' school record cards. May I ask the Minister for Education whether the attendance register now being used by all schools in Singapore can be simplified and made more practical? If this can be done, the parents will not have to produce the same documents for checking year after year. Teachers will also not have to waste too much time in filling up the attendance register which, except for recording the students' attendance, is not being fully made use of. I wonder what the Minister thinks of this proposal.

Mr Speaker, Sir, teachers from the different language media have their own unions. However, these unions do not count for much in the eyes of the officials of the Ministry of Education. Whenever there is any proposed change in the curriculum or some innovation in the educational system itself, the teachers' unions have no opportunity to express their views. If there is any reform in the educational system, they are not notified. Needless to say, whenever there is any educational function organised by the Ministry of Education, they are not invited. It should be noted that teachers have direct contact with the students. Their study problems and practical needs are better known to the teachers. If the teachers' unions are consulted whenever there is a change in the educational system, I believe they can make a valuable contribution. Unfortunately, it is only when something is amiss that the Ministry of Education will consult the teachers' unions, and perhaps make them share part of the blame. For instance, last year, the Ministry of Education devised a teacher's record book which proved to be impracticable. As a result, the Ministry convened a conference of teachers' unions at the beginning of the year to consider the matter. In the end, a new teacher's record book suitable for use by the teachers was devised. Sir, usually it is only when things are in a mess that the Ministry will consult the teachers' unions and ask them to help clear it up. I hope the staff in the Ministry of Education will pay more respect to the teachers' unions of all the language media.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Paya Lebar has touched on the question of bilingualism in schools and the use of the second language as a medium of instruction in certain subjects. He says further that proper consideration should be given to this matter before its implementation. The question of bilingualism has been taxing the minds of many people for a long time. Ours is a multi-racial and multi-lingual society. Everybody is aware of the importance of knowing more than one language in our society. The Member for Paya Lebar probably comes from a Chinese school and I am sure he is aware that English has always been the second language in the Chinese schools for the last 30 or 40 years. From his personal experience, I am sure he will agree with me that it has been a complete failure. Most of the graduates from the Chinese schools, probably with a few exceptions, have not been able to make use of English, particularly in conversation, although they have been studying it as a second language for more than ten years in school. Obviously this situation cannot be perpetuated and something drastic has to be done quickly.

From experience and also from observations made, it has been found that if a second language is learnt while at an early age, it will not be as difficult to master as when one begins to study it at, say, after the primary stage. If the Member for Paya Lebar will remember, Professor Haliday, who was a linguist, came to Singapore last year and gave a few lectures at the Teachers' Training College. He made the point that to master a language well, one has to start at a very young age in fact, as early as possible. It was for this reason and the need to make some drastic changes that we have decided to introduce a second language as a medium of instruction in certain subjects in the Primary schools.

Bilingualism in schools is being implemented in gradual stages as far as academic subjects are concerned. For instance, the teaching of Mathematics in non-English schools through the medium of English began in 1968 for Primary one classes in all the Government Chinese Primary schools and some aided schools as well. It was extended to Primary II in 1969 and Primary III in 1970. History taught through the medium of a second language was introduced in the English medium schools early this year in Primary III and will be extended to the higher classes by yearly stages. This gradual implementation of the scheme will obviate undue hardship on the part of pupils and teachers.

As regards the adequacy of teachers for implementing the bilingual education policy, several in-service courses have been organised to train second-language teachers. An English language course for non-English medium teachers of Mathematics and Science has also been conducted. In addition, seminars on the teaching of Civics have been held and one on the teaching of History is being organised.

Primary school teachers are normally non-specialists who have been trained to teach a variety of subjects. As language teachers are also general teachers, they are able to teach other Primary school subjects as well as language. Those who have additional training in the teaching of a second language are not necessarily incapable of teaching such subjects as History or Civics which do not need specialised knowledge at the Primary school level. However, when it comes to the Secondary school level, History will be taught in the second language by teachers with the necessary background.

Admittedly there is room for improvement, and bilingualism in schools is no exception. Active measures have been and are being taken to meet any anticipated difficulty and to remedy any known deficiency so that bilingualism will be achieved. These measures include the following:

The objective evaluation of the curricula, textbooks and methods of teaching. Several schools have been chosen as experimental schools to devise improved methods of teaching Mathematics, Science and English where English is the second language.

A committee has been formed to make a careful study of the content and vocabulary of the textbook in History for Primary schools as well as the difficulties encountered by teachers and pupils.

A Director of Research was appointed early last year, and one of her duties is to look into all these questions, quite apart from educational research. She has gathered around her half a dozen educationists who have had training in research and methodology. I am sure that in the course of the next few years some positive results will come out of it.

3.45 p.m.

The Member for Sembawang has mentioned just now that our vocational institutions could enrol only about 1,000 students and that it would possibly take more than 30 years before we could achieve the target of 35,000 technical personnel a year. I do not know where he got his information from. I am sure he has been misinformed. The Ministry proposes to recruit 3,000 to 4,000 students for the industrial courses this year. The intake of students will be undertaken in four phases annually. We have recruited about 1,000 students in February and have already advertised to take in another 1,000 in May 1970.

The Member for Sembawang has also mentioned that there are no special classes organised by the Adult Education Board in his constituency. Mr Speaker, Sir, the Adult Education Board conducts special classes for Primary Six leavers in the day time in the following centres:

Kim Keat Vocational School Centre;

Mountbatten Vocational School Centre;

Bukit Batok Vocational School Centre;

Parry Avenue Vocational School Centre; and

Hai Sing Dewasa Institute.

Special classes in the rural areas are now conducted during the day by the Board in Parry Avenue and Bukit Batok Vocational School Centres. The Board's Parry Avenue Vocational School Centre caters for students in the Yio Chu Kang, Punggol, Sembawang and Tampines areas. The Bukit Batok Vocational School Centre caters for students in the Jurong, Choa Chu Kang and Upper Bukit Timah areas. So it is not true to say that the Board has not organised special classes for Primary Six leavers in the rural areas. However, the Board will be prepared to conduct these special classes in any other rural areas provided facilities are available and student numbers warrant the opening of such classes. If the Member for Sembawang can gather a sufficient number of Primary Six leavers in his constituency to one particular centre, I am sure the Adult Education Board will be only too pleased to look into the feasibility of starting a class there.

As for tuck-shops in schools, the rental includes public utility charges for water and lighting. These charges have now gone up as a result of the 10 per cent tax and, therefore, there is no likelihood of lowering the rental of school stalls. The conditions of selling are laid down in individual tuck-shop agreements signed by the stall-holders at the beginning of the year or at the time when they take up the stalls. All cases of varying of conditions of selling are sympathetically and carefully considered and decided by the school's tuck-shop committees of the respective schools in the first instance. Should the stall-holder feel unhappy about the decision of the school tuck-shop committee, he can appeal to the Tuck-shop Standing Committee of the Ministry of Education. His whole case will then be carefully reviewed by the Tuck-shop Standing Committee and I am sure in most cases the decision will be a reasonable one.

The Member for Thomson has complained that certain second-language teachers are unco-operative and inflict corporal punishment on the students with a view to getting themselves transferred back to the English medium schools. I am quite aware that there are second-language teachers who are unhappy in Chinese medium schools. I think it is understandable, because the Chinese medium schools are a new environment and probably quite strange to the English language teacher. Until now, they have only one subject to teach, and that is English. As such, their duties become very monotonous and onerous. However, with the introduction of English as the medium of instruction in certain subjects in non-English schools, I am sure the second-language teachers will now no longer find their duties so monotonous. If the Member for Thomson can bring up instances of teachers who have administered corporal punishment with the motive of getting themselves transferred, I am sure we will deal with them quite firmly. For his information, corporal punishment is prohibited. Only principals are vested with the authority to administer it. If a teacher is found guilty of administering it without the permission of the principal concerned, far from getting himself transferred to English schools, he may find himself out of a job.

Coming to the Member for Tiong Bahru's question, the posts of Principal of Raffles Institution and Principal of Raffles Girls' School have traditionally been superscale posts among Government English schools. The two schools, which have a long and outstanding record of achievements, are generally accepted as being among the premier schools in the Republic. As the number of promotion posts in the education service is small compared to the strength of the service, it is desirable to retain these two superscale posts as senior promotion posts for members of this service. There is no intention of converting these two schools into junior colleges. The current thinking is that we should build half a dozen or more junior colleges to absorb all pre-university students now studying in various secondary schools.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): On a point of clarification, Sir. In replying to my colleague, the Member of Tiong Bahru, the Minister for Education said that because Raffles Institution and Raffles Girls' School are premier schools, it is necessary to retain the two super-scale posts of Principals. But can the Minister safely say in this House that these two schools have been producing top students during the last few decades, thereby warranting the retention of these two superscale posts?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, I can only presume that it is so. Last week, when the School Certificate results were announced, I think Raffles Institution again topped the list for all secondary schools in Singapore by producing the best results.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Not necessarily the best results!

Mr Ong Pang Boon: That is quite true. But I think one should take the performance of the whole school into consideration and not individual students.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, in that case, is the Minister aware that there are some schools which have defeated Raffles Institution and Raffles Girls' School in the Cambridge School Certificate results in the past few decades? Under such circumstances, can he reconsider his statement that since these two schools are premier schools, it is necessary to retain the two superscale posts of Principals?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, they were premier schools in the past. Whether they will continue to be premier schools in the future remains to be seen. I suppose if the position changes for the worse and these two schools no longer produce good results, I am sure the position will be reviewed.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, can the Minister say whether these two schools take the cream of passes in the Primary School Leaving Examination?

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, before the Minister answers, I have to join in the debate. Perhaps I may not agree with my colleague, the Member for Punggol.

Sir, first allow me to get one point of clarification from the Minister? Does he mean that the Principals of these two schools are holders of superscale posts because their schools produce good results? If so, then I think the whole system is wrong. Sir, are we going to classify our principals according to the results that their schools produce or on the calibre of the principal of any particular school? I will agree with the Minister if he says that we should continue with the tradition of having superscale posts of Principals for our two premier schools and not just because they produce good results. At the same time, Sir, I was quite happy when I heard the Minister say that there are very few superscale posts in the education service and therefore we must retain these two posts. If that is the case, is there a possibility of creating more superscale posts? The student enrolment has increased and I think there is a need for creating more super-scale posts, thereby enhancing the promotion prospects of those in the education service.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, as I have said just now, the current thinking is to build more junior colleges. Possibly we need half a dozen or even more junior colleges. The post of principals of these junior colleges will be superscale posts, and I am sure the Member for Telok Blangah will be happy to hear this.

4.00 p.m.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the superscale posts are held by officers who deserve the posts. Whether they are in charge of secondary schools or whether the schools are premier schools, promotion actually depends very much upon the quality of the officers concerned.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I believe the Minister has not replied to my question on the setting up of a Chinese Language Research Centre.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the establishment of a Chinese Language Centre has been under consideration for some time now. A committee was appointed early last year to look into this problem. I think it has finished its deliberations and a draft constitution has been drawn up. It is now awaiting the approval of the Ministry of Finance.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Minister has not replied to my question.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have not seen the attendance books kept by the form masters in schools. I am afraid I am not able to answer him quite categorically whether such attendance books need be kept. Obviously, there is a need for keeping attendance books, but whether they should be simplified further is a moot point. I shall look into the problem.

As for the Teachers' Union's complaint that they have been ignored and not consulted in all major innovations by the Ministry of Education, I sympathize with the Member for Jurong in this respect. The blame partly probably lies at the doorstep of the Teachers' Union for not making themselves more active in educational matters, and I think there is a singular lack of interest among the teachers in their own union.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): In view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1020.

Mr Speaker, Sir, ever since its implementation of in-service courses, the Teachers' Training College has been very energetic and vigorous in carrying them out. In 1969 alone, it conducted about 50 courses which included arts and crafts, Audio and Visual Aid education, Chinese language, English language, Geography, History, Malay language, Mathematics, Music, Physical Education, Science and Career Guidance. The courses are numerous. This is a good sign, because these courses enable qualified teachers to keep abreast of the latest trend in education, and to widen their professional knowledge. Mr Speaker, Sir, there may be certain people who question the need for these courses. They may well say, even without attending them, it does not mean that teachers will not improve their professional skills. By and large, this is not impossible. However, without attending such courses it is not easy to do so. I think it is my duty to go into this in greater detail.

A trainee teacher is directly influenced by his lecturers and the kind of textbooks which he uses at the Teachers' Training College. In the course of his training, certain concepts and values on education and methodology are formed. However, when he leaves the T.T.C. and joins the teaching service, he may be confronted with a principal who may require another teaching method. He may also have to face an inspector of schools who wants him to teach in a different way. Under such circumstances, it is well nigh impossible for him to please two masters. What worries him perpetually is how to please his superior officers so as not to get into trouble. However, if he attends in-service courses, he will be provided with an opportunity to rethink and to reappraise certain problems on education.

The Teachers' Training College should not regard in-service courses as merely an appendage. These courses must form an important link in teacher education. The ideal teacher education at the Teachers' Training College should not be confined only to trainee teachers. Those teachers who have qualified also need to be trained. The Teachers' Training College should reassess the contents and syllabuses of the in-service courses and to replan the whole courses so that they form an essential part of teacher education and not as a mere appendage. Education is a life-long process.

Mr Speaker, Sir, permit me to raise another question, namely, the building at the Teachers' Training College. A year before, the Minister said that we --

The Chairman: Mr Tay, are you on the right subhead?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): I am talking -

The Chairman: Subhead 1020 refers to "Inspectors of Schools". Will you please confine yourself to"Inspectors of Schools"?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I was mistaken. I would like to touch on school inspectors.

Since 1959 when the People's Action Party, on the mandate of the people of Singapore, took over the government of the country, thereby ending British colonial rule which lasted over a hundred years, our achievements in the field of education have been impressive and outstanding. In the process, there have been a large number of reforms and revisions in our educational system, but what I do not understand is that in the reforms over the last ten years, we have overlooked the use of the term "official" which, in Chinese, relates to inspectors of schools. The term "official" in Chinese has a very strong flavour of feudalism and British colonialism. It is not surprising that some principals are at a complete loss when they are confronted with these Inspectors of Schools. Similarly, it is not surprising that many teachers break into a cold sweat when they are confronted by these school inspectors.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am a teacher myself. I have often heard complaints about these school inspectors from my colleagues. I want to emphasise that there are only some inspectors who are unhelpful. These inspectors more often scold and reprimand the teachers than offer them guidance and assistance. In other words, when they come round and supervise the teaching of teachers, they only reprimand the teachers but they do not offer them any advice on how to improve and get rid of the defects in the method of teaching. If they only indulge in reprimanding and scolding the teachers and not offering them any kind of assistance, then how do we expect them to carry out our excellent educational policy?

4.15 p.m.

What we require of our Inspectors of Schools is just a more courteous attitude. The assistance of inspectors who can offer advice and guidance on teaching methods will be useful to the teachers who can thereby improve their teaching. From this, we can then raise the standard of efficiency of our teachers so that they can better carry out the excellent educational policy of our country.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Paya Lebar complains that we are still using the colonial term "inspectors", and that they are not fulfilling their role. I have outlined the duties of inspectors only a few minutes ago, and I do not wish to repeat them. There is no advantage in changing the term "inspector" to some other name, as the duties of the inspectors remain unchanged. The Ministry of Education is not the only Ministry to use this term, which has been used in the last half century. In the Police Force, this term is still being used and no one seems to complain that "Inspector of Police" is a colonial term and should be changed.

I think what is important is that the relationship between teacher and inspector should be improved. The inspector should be respected rather than feared. With the general improvement in the quality of teaching and, as I have said, as our inspectors gain experience, a better relationship could be achieved. The Member for Paya Lebar is aware that inspectors are drawn from the rank and file of the teaching service. Therefore, one would expect that teachers, on being promoted to inspectors, would be very sympathetic to their former colleagues.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has said that other Ministries also use the term "inspector". Let me say that in the teaching service, although we call them "inspectors", we do not regard them as such. In Chinese, the word "official" has been left out. I hope that as educators of the young, we will not continue to use this term, which has a colonial flavour.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, does the Member for Paya Lebar seriously believe that if we change the term "inspector" to, let us say, "adviser", the whole teacher/inspector relationship will change?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I believe this is possible. First, the term "official" or "bureaucrat" in Chinese could be used for the person who inspects schools. If you analyse the word "inspector" in Chinese, he is a man who thinks that his duty is only to inspect and not to do anything else. If the Minister is agreeable, I should say that this officer should not only inspect but also guide the teachers, and so do more than just inspect the schools. By doing this, I think we can improve the relationship between the inspectors and the teachers.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is not true that inspectors do not offer advice to teachers in respect of professional matters. I do not think the relationship can be improved if the designation is changed, as suggested by the Member, which is Hsih Tau Yen. The position will remain the same, because the inspector has to perform the same duties.

The Chairman: Mr Tay, do you wish to withdraw your amendment?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am not satisfied with the Minister's explanation, and I am not withdrawing my amendment.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1111*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting.)

Sir, I would like to congratulate the Ministry of Education on establishing the Research and Statistics Unit, thus creating the post of Director of Research. I remember having spoken in this House on a previous occasion on this subject of educational research. I then mentioned that this research unit should be independent of administrative control by civil servants who do not belong to it. I would now like to ask, therefore, what is the degree of independence that this unit enjoys; to what extent can it decide on priorities; and on what basis are its priorities decided with regard to research? I would also like to ask, Sir, what is the scope of research that has indeed been decided upon?

I hope that adequate funds will be available for this Research Unit for the proper implementation of its functions, and that it will enjoy a happy relationship with other bodies interested in research, like the Teachers' Training College and the University of Singapore.

There is, however, one matter to which I feel this Research Unit should give some attention. We in Singapore have constantly emphasised the importance of our human resources. In fact, some reference has been made to the mild derision with which our intention to start industries in Jurong was greeted. But we have succeeded in establishing these industries at Jurong, and we have also succeeded in other enterprises because of the quality of our human resources. Since we do give such emphasis to our human resources, perhaps some instrument could be devised by this Research Unit, or the matter could be gone into, whereby the detection of specially intelligent people among us will be made much easier. And having detected those who are specially intelligent, we could give them special attention in school so that their talents could be nurtured for the benefit of our society.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Education has spoken to some extent on the setting up of the Research and Statistics Unit in his Ministry. I wonder if he can throw some light on the function of this unit. All I could get from him was something pertaining to methodology and other forms of research, and that in a few years' time, according to him, we might get the results.

Sir, I think the unit will play an important role in shaping the type of educational system that Singapore ought to have in relation to the conditions we are in.

Sir, the P.A.P. has been in office for the past 11 years, and it has seen some changes, though not very drastic. The educational policy today is different from that in the colonial days. In this respect, will this Research and Statistics Unit do research into our educational system so that in the not too distant future we will be able to streamline and trim off all the rough edges, so to speak, and formulate the proper type of educational system that we need?

Sir, may I venture to suggest to the Minister that this unit take into consideration the principles of education, the syllabuses in the primary schools, the academic and technical secondary schools, and in the technical institutes, and also the extra-curricular activities that students are required to take up during their leisure hours? I think these extra-curricular activities are being pursued too vigorously, so much so that the students have to spend more time in the field than in their studies. My question is this: has the Minister realised that the heavy emphasis placed on extra-curricular activities has resulted in our having one of the lowest Cambridge School Certificate examination results for last year? Only a few days ago we learned that there was a total of about 51 per cent passes in last year's School Certificate Examination. Therefore, this Research Unit has an important part to play, and I hope the Minister can enlighten this House on the exact role it will play.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education (Dr Lee Chiaw Meng): I wish to thank Members for their very kind words about the Research and Statistics Unit, and their appreciation of the important role this unit has to play in the development of our educational system.

4.30 p.m.

I must apologise for the fact that the work of the Research Unit has not been made known to Members. The reason is that it was formed only a year ago. I have a list here showing some 20 or more duties it is performing. Looking at it, we can see that it includes the analysis of the Chinese Secondary IV examination results, the vocational aspirations of school leavers, the study of curriculum and so on. The Research Unit also serves as the secretariat to the manpower group which I have formed recently; it co-ordinates the work of some half a dozen organisations involving manpower data collection and study. It is also involved in the carrying out of tests for the channelling of Secondary II students to Technical III classes and so on. It is also concerned with the study of the professional aspects of the teaching of the second languages, etc.

As for the specific question raised by the Member for Katong, I can assure him that this unit enjoys a very good degree of independence. It is responsible to the Minister directly through me, and it does not have interference from any of the administrators.

On the question of spotting of talent, I must admit that this has been the preoccupation of all educationists for centuries throughout the world. I can assure Members that we are also preoccupied with this particular problem. I cannot agree more with the Member for Punggol - unfortunately he is not here -

Mr Ng Kah Ting at this point entered the Chamber.

The Chairman: He is coming in.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: - that the Research Unit has a very important role to play in shaping our educational system. In fact, one of the tasks which this Research Unit is undertaking is to make a manpower study of the shipbuilding and repairing industry, the electronics industry, the examination and analysis of the existing programme on technical education and training, and to make recommendations for the long-term requirements of Singapore. These are some of the many duties which the unit is carrying out now.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Will the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education indicate whether a report will be made to Parliament when this Research Unit has completed its work?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Mr Speaker, Sir, some of the reports will be published. However, those which are usually of a survey or service nature will be very short and they will not interest anyone except the Ministry of Education Headquarters.

Mr Conceicao: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Ho Kah Leong. Amendment (5). You have six minutes inclusive of reply.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I shall be very short. Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1131.

Sir, this vote is in respect of extracurricular activities. As the name implies, extra-curricular activities should be carried out outside normal school hours. However, as far as I know, many students take part in these activities during school hours, especially those who join the uniformed groups like the Cadet Corps and the Police Cadet Corps. This is a very serious problem because it affects the work of the students concerned. They will find it difficult to cope with class lessons as well as with extra-curricular activities during school hours.

Extra-curricular activities are compulsory in schools. However, a student can attend to one thing only at the expense of the other. That is, if he takes part in extra-curricular activities, he will do badly in his lessons. The standard of school work of many students has dropped considerably. Last year I had occasion to mention this point to the Minister, but the same position still obtains today. Will the Minister assure this House that extra-curricular activities will only be carried out outside normal school hours?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, extra-curricular activities are mainly conducted outside the school time-table. But there are times when it is not possible to do so, especially when particular schools are chosen to take part in a youth festival or the national parade. In such cases, students will have to go through many rehearsals. To do so outside school hours may not be possible at times. Occasionally, these rehearsals have to impinge on the school time-table to give the students the required number of practices.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not quite satisfied with the reply given by the Minister. I am not prepared to withdraw my amendment.

Question on the amendment put, and negatived.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1157.

I am informed that some graduate teachers are recruited direct from the Universities without proper training as teachers as is the case of non-graduate teachers. If this is so, I would like to know what steps are being taken to train these graduate teachers.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, the graduates who are recruited direct from the Universities have to undergo a one-year training programme at the Teachers' Training College conducted jointly by the University of Singapore and the Teachers' Training College which will lead to the award of a Diploma in Education. So I do not know what the Member for Anson is talking about.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, if the graduates are recruited direct from the Universities, people will not know whether they have already been trained as teachers or not. If they are sent to the Teachers' Training College, then people will know that they are being trained as teachers. If they come from the Universities direct, naturally the people will think these teachers are not trained. That is the reason why I asked this question.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, all graduate teachers will be trained. In fact, all graduates recruited as teachers are attending an in-service course at the Teachers' Training College.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.40 p.m.

The Chairman: It is "guillotine" time.

The time allotted for Head 0701 having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong:

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1158.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong:

Mr N. Govindasamy:

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1211.

Mr Tay Boon Too:

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(9) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1221.

Mr Ng Kah Ting:

(10) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead 1341.

Mr J. F. Conceicao:

(11) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1401.

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(12) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1481.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong:

(13) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1504.

(14) That the sum to be allocated f or Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1506.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: (15) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1504.

(16) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1781.

(17) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2058.

(18) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2101.

Mr N. Govindasamy: (19) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2123.

Mr Ng Kah Ting:

(20) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2127.

(21) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2251.

(22) That the sum to he allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2403.

(23) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2551.

(24) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2560.

Mr P. Govindaswamy:

Mr Low Yong Nguan:

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(25) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $173,976,920 for Head 0701 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: I propose to take the suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 5.10 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.41 p.m. until 5.10 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.10 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 0801 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Mr Speaker, Sir, you yourself and the Minister for Communications will agree that we are faced with many serious problems in the field of communications, in particular, the traffic congestion and the number of traffic accidents. We know that traffic congestion and road accidents are problems which confront many countries. Since we are faced with these problems, we should think of some schemes to resolve them.

I want to make two suggestions to relieve the traffic congestion. First, we should do away with parking lots on the streets in the city area. If you widen the streets, the traffic can flow more freely. This will reduce traffic congestion and, from the Government's viewpoint, this is better than taking 20 cents per hour from motorists for parking in the city area. The levy of this fee will not help the flow of traffic. Secondly, the building of more public highways is a pressing problem. We should undertake this task straightaway and not wait until several years later, otherwise it will complicate matters.

According to statistics on accidents, there are about 200 deaths on the road every year. This is a very serious problem. I have two suggestions to reduce the number of traffic accidents. First, we should promote more campaigns on road courtesy and give them wide publicity. For instance, the Political Secretary attached to the Ministry of Defence is quite reckless in his driving. He should set a good example. We should ask all drivers to abide by the traffic rules and drive more carefully.

After leaving the Political Secretary, I will now touch upon the question of old and shabby cars. The engines of these cars are not functioning efficiently.

I hope the Ministry of Communications can take measures to reduce the number of such cars because they emit obnoxious fumes which endanger our health. Furthermore, these cars cause many traffic accidents.

I would also like to ask the Minister whether he will consider issuing more taxi licences. According to statistics, there are about 14,000 drivers who have taxi-driving licences, but there are only 3,800 taxis. From these figures, we can see that there is a shortage of taxis. Therefore, I hope the Minister will seriously consider issuing new licences for taxis, as this can help resolve the question of unemployment to a certain extent.

Sir, a Transport Advisory Board was set up last year. Can the Minister say what are the recommendations of this Board? How many recommendations have been implemented, and what are the recommendations that have not been implemented? What are the Minister's views on these recommendations?

Finally, I would like to bring up the question of old bicycles. Sir, we often see people riding bicycles which are 20 or 30 years old. Some of them are without lamps, some without brakes,and some have worn-out parts. Accidents have occurred because of ineffective brakes. Therefore, I hope the Minister will look into this problem.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, one or two years ago, buses were provided for workers who live in the eastern part of Singapore and who work in the Jurong industrial estate. Sir, this bus service is not available now. At that time, the demand for workers was not so great. With the rapid increase in the number of industries in Jurong and as workers are in great demand now, can the Minister make arrangements with bus companies in Singapore to start an express bus service at centralised pick-up points, say, from 6 a.m. to 7.30 a.m. and from 4.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. staggered every half an hour? This bus service will greatly help workers living in the eastern part of the Republic.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, since I have put in an amendment* on the main Head, I would like to say something now.

• The amendment reads as follows:

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: All right, Madam Chan.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I feel that the plans to ease traffic congestion should be co-ordinated with the plans to redevelop our city. The Minister for Communications has said that the traffic problem in Singapore is acute. I would like to know whether there are new proposals to resolve the traffic problem in our small island of 225 square miles. In this connection, can the Minister say whether there is a plan to construct subways to solve part of our traffic problem? Some countries have this system for commuters to go from one place to another and this may be a means to ease traffic congestion in Singapore.

The Government has set up bus stations and parking lots. The number of vehicles is increasing and the Minister for Finance says that it is due to our prosperity and that the living standard of our people has gone up. More and more of our people are using motor-cars not as a means of transport but as a means of showing off, thereby causing traffic congestion on the road. I would like to ask the Minister whether he will consider another proposal for easing traffic congestion, and that is to prevent all private cars from entering the city within a three-mile radius. Workers can get into the city area only by public buses.

The Chairman: Mr Yong, you have only one minute to reply.

The Minister for Communications (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): Mr Speaker, Sir, to try to reply in one minute to the comments of the three Members of Parliament, I think, is a little difficult, but I shall endeavour to do so. First of all, the Member for Sembawang, when speaking about traffic congestion, suggested that we should do away with car parks and build more public highways. These are matters which come within the purview of my colleague, the Minister for National Development. I shall convey to him the Member for Sembawang's suggestion for doing away with car parks and thereby doing away with the revenue from car parks. On the suggestion to build more public highways, I think this is already in progress.

On the problem of reducing traffic accidents, we entirely agree with the Member's suggestion that drivers should show more road courtesy.

Regarding the dangers of having many old vehicles either breaking down on the road or emitting fumes, and also causing accidents, this problem is being looked into. In fact, this is one of the subjects touched upon by the Transport Advisory Board in their second interim report which I received early this month and which is now under consideration.

Likewise the question of whether or not we should issue more taxi licences. This is coming up for consideration and I am not in a position as yet to give an answer to Members of this House.

I think the suggestion of the Member for Changi to have express buses running from various city centres to and from Jurong is a good one. This will be given serious consideration. In fact, I will appreciate it if the Member can give me specific proposals so that the matter can be followed up.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Certainly!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Lastly, the Member for Delta is quite correct in saying that our plans for easing traffic congestion should be co-ordinated with our plans for urban renewal. There is a proposal under study for a mass rapid transit system for Singapore. But it will take a long time to have this proposal in a state of -

5.25 p.m.

The Chairman: Mr Yong, time is up. Mr Teong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, since the Minister has given a satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $241,610 for Head 0801 ordered to stand part of the Estimates..

Head 0802 -

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0802 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2012.

Sir, I presume this provision is for utility services for the Marine quarters in Pulau Brani. These quarters for Division IV employees of the Marine Department are quite new and can be utilised for many more years to come. But there is a defect in their construction. Under the building by-laws, I believe it is required that the toilet facilities in a building should be at a specified distance away from the kitchen. But the type that is provided in these quarters is not in conformity with the building by-laws. I hope the Minister will not say that this is a matter for the Ministry of National Development, because these quarters are meant for the Marine Department. As such, if these quarters have modern sanitation, then it is all right. Furthermore, because of the bucket system, nobody uses the toilet facilities. I would suggest that sufficient toilet facilities should be provided for these quarters. I hope the Minister will take up this matter with the proper authorities so that these quarters are provided with toilet facilities.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Telok Blangah did answer the question for me, that is, I will have to pass the matter on to some other authority. But I will look into this complaint and see that it receives favourable consideration. It will still have to be tackled by the other authorities.

Mr N. Govindasamy: On the assurance of the Minister that he will take the matter up with the proper authorities, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,771,340 for Head 0802 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0803 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Selvadurai -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Chairman: Mr Selvadurai is not here. Mr N. Govindasamy, amendment (2).

5.30 p.m.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1151.

Sir, this amendment is moved to seek information from the Minister on the vacancy for the post of Airport Traffic Officer which has not been filled, I am told, since January 1969. Sir, although in August 1969 applicants for this post were interviewed, the post has yet to be substantively filled. Is there no experienced officer in the airport who can substantively fill it? I am told the last substantive holder of this post was a local employee, and there are many others who have been assistants to him and who have performed the duties of this particular post in acting capacities. By not filling this post substantively since the beginning of 1969, does the Civil Aviation Department expect to fill this post with an expatriate? If so, is there not a possibility of avoiding the filling of this post with an expatriate but with a local man who can perform this duty?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah is indeed very well informed of the staffing position in the Director of Civil Aviation's office. It is true that this post of Airport Traffic Officer fell vacant on the 1st January, 1969, and in response to the invitation to fill the post, there were 15 applications and 11 were short-listed for interview by the Public Service Commission in August of last year; but, unfortunately, none of the candidates was considered suitable to fill the post permanently. At the moment, it is being temporarily filled in an officiating capacity. I suppose that in due course of time there will be another promotion exercise, and I can assure the Member that no expatriate officer will be considered for this post. If any of our local officers is considered fit to fill it, I think the decision will then be taken at the appropriate time.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I am satisfied with the explanation given by the Minister and I beg leave to withdraw

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Lim Soo Peng (Havelock): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1181.

Sir, the first impression a tourist gets of Singapore is the smartness and efficiency of the airport personnel. The Immigration and Customs officers do give such an impression to passengers using the airport. By and large, the airport police are also doing a good job, but there is increasingly the sight of airport policemen slouching sloppily here and there. These few lazy policemen mar the good work done by the others. Can we not have more discipline and responsibility drilled into them?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am sorry to hear from the Member for Havelock that he considers our airport police to be rather sloppy; that they slouch and are sleepy looking. If that is the real impression given, I can assure him that the officer-in-charge of the airport police will be asked to put matters right. May I say that there has also been a change in the person who is now in charge of the airport police. The previous incumbent has left. He went on retirement in September 1969. So I think it is about time that the new officer on secondment for two years from the Police Force to the airport, exercised discipline and put our airport police in the same frame of mind as that of the rest of the police in the Republic.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1244.

Sir, this provision for Good Conduct Allowance was brought up by my colleague, the Member for Serangoon Gardens, during the last Budget session. When he brought this matter up he submitted, and I quote (Hansard Vol. 28 No. 6 dated 17-12-68, col. 500):

'... that constables, security officers or whatever personnel are entitled to this allowance would be expected to show good conduct. I do not think there should be incentives for them to show good conduct and receive monetary benefit for so showing.'

I cannot put the case more concisely than the Member for Serangoon Gardens who belongs to the legal profession.

Sir, the Minister in his reply agreed with the Member for Serangoon Gardens, and stated that allowances of this nature were possibly not necessary, and it was also noted that no such payment was ever made. I also see that such allowances are provided for in the Ministry of Interior and Defence. When are we going to do away with the payment of allowances for good conduct? This seems ridiculous, especially when monetary incentives are offered to our guardians of the peace.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have referred to the relevant Hansard and there were statements about good conduct allowances, etc. At that date there were no payments, but I understand these good conduct allowances are payable to police officers, including detectives, between the ranks of sergeant and constable. Furthermore, since these allowances are pensionable, the question needs to be gone into deeper before they can be withdrawn. Therefore, so long as they are still payable under the scheme of service, I am afraid we will have to meet the bill. May I say that since I last spoke in Parliament, it has been discovered that 72 of the rank and file are, in fact, eligible for this allowance, and many of them are eligible for it retrospectively from 1st July, 1966. Therefore, there is a huge sum payable by the end of this month, amounting to $9,240. Treasury approval has been given for this payment to be made.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is a shocking revelation that even back-payment is being made. I am just wondering if the Member for Serangoon Gardens has not done a disservice by revealing to people that there are such allowances payable.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I think I have to make a reply. It would appear that the officer-in-charge of the airport police was under the impression that it was in his discretion to make this payment and he decided he would not make any payment. But they are entitled to this allowance if they are generally of good behaviour, etc, for three years, and they are eligible for a second allowance after another three years, and so on and so forth. This is part of their scheme of service. Unless it is agreed between the Government and the Police Force that this allowance be scrapped, I am afraid we will have to meet the bill.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I should be the last person to say, "Do not pay the workers for what they are doing." However, I do feel that a review of this issue must be made, because it sounds funny paying good conduct allowance to people who are expected to show good conduct! However, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting-

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (9) of subhead 2001.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I am not moving my amendment.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3009.

Sir, this amendment is moved so as to get further information from the Minister. This year's estimate for this subhead exceeds the last estimates for 15 months by over $12,000. According to the explanatory statement, it provides for the purchase of one large trolley and ten small trolleys.

Sir, in my frequent visits to the airport I have noticed the shortage of porters, especially during peak hours. I have also noticed that in other international airports small trolleys are provided for the passengers' use. When there is a shortage of porters, passengers can use these trolleys to clear their baggage themselves without much inconvenience. I would, therefore, suggest that more small trolleys be provided for the passengers' benefit. Can the Minister tell us if the ten small trolleys to be purchased are for the use of the passengers? If not, can he look into the possibility of purchasing more small trolleys for passengers' use?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am afraid the Member for Telok Blangah has caught me in his query whether the small trolleys are really for the use of individual passengers, just as in the supermarkets you shop around with a little trolley in which to put your purchases. All I can say is that we do have something like 37 small baggage trolleys. I presume they can be used by passengers if they want to, but, on the whole, I would say that this large allocation of over $20,000 is the result of the National Productivity Centre having been asked by the Minister for Finance to look into the question of complaints about delays in the handling of luggage, which we received last year from the Member for Havelock and others. As a result of this study by the National Productivity Centre, 18 additional men were employed and four large baggage trolleys and one tractor were recommended. This was part of the purchase which formed the estimate under this subhead 3009. If these small baggage trolleys are not for passengers to use, I will pass this recommendation to my Director of Civil Aviation to follow up.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do feel that until very recently there was a need for these small trolleys to get baggage out of the clearance lounge to the taxi stand, and as the Minister has promised to follow this up, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $6,805,530 for Head 0803 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0804 -

The following amendment stood in the name of

Madam Chan Choy Siong -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0804 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving, Sir.

The sum of $1,137,030 for Head 0804 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

5.45 p.m.

Head 0805 -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0805 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr Cheong Yuen Chee, Mr Ng Kah Ting, and Madam Chan Choy Siong.)

Sir, I wish to raise some questions on the General Post Office. The General Post Office was built in 1928 when the population of Singapore was less than half a million. Today the population is more than two million. The space in certain sections of the General Post Office for receiving and despatching of letters remains the same. It is said that these sections are now very congested and dusty. Even some of the sorting frames are the same frames that were originally put up in 1928. In the basement, the parcel room, backroom and stores are the same rooms used since 1928.

I would like to know if the Minister would make surprise checks - not to tell the head of the department that he was going there, as otherwise everything would be made clean -- at these places in order to see for himself the actual working conditions of the postal staff. Does he know about that? Does he know how difficult it is for them to work there? If he wants them to work very hard, he should see that there is proper ventilation and adequate space for them to sort out the letters, and to put them into bags and so on. He must give them the space.

I know there is a provision of $33,000 in the Development Estimates for an extension - I do not know what is the extension - of the General Post Office. But I think the Minister should look into the matter and make improvements to the General Post Office, especially for the benefit of the staff.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, in the last Budget sitting I did raise the question of provision of a full range of postal facilities for the residents in Toa Payoh. The Minister for Communications then said that it was anticipated that the Postal Services Department would be able to provide such services during the latter part of 1969. The number of residents in Toa Payoh has now nearly doubled, and many light industries are being set up in the estate. Two of them are already in operation.

In view of this, will the Minister indicate when the Postal Services Department will be able to provide such facilities to the general public in Toa Payoh?

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I share the sentiments expressed by my two colleagues. What I wish to touch on is the delivery services not only in Punggol Constituency but also in the other rural constituencies. In order to establish that there is a need to provide more and better and faster delivery services, I have to explain my points by means of a couple of illustrations.

The first illustration concerns letters that are to be delivered from Paya Lebar Post Office to areas in Upper Serangoon, Tampines, and Punggol. I have received complaints that notices of meetings sent out by my Citizens' Consultative Committee Secretary were not delivered until a few days later.

The second illustration - there was a time when one or two postmen went up to one of the community centres with a pile of letters and asked the community centre staff to deliver them. When I was told of it, I said no. The function of the community centre and its staff is not to deliver letters.

The third illustration, Sir, is in regard to a case which I received of a national serviceman who was registered for national service in 1967 but was not called up until last year. His complaint was that he had not received any enlistment notice. Whether enlistment notices were sent to him or not, I am not in a position to say. On the 2nd of January 1970, I wrote to the Postmaster-General asking for an explanation. To my surprise, all I got was a little blue card dated 5th January 1970, acknowledging receipt of my communication. He gave me a reference number, and to date, Sir, I have not received any further reply. I tried to find out what had been done in this respect, but all I was told was that a reply had, in fact, been sent to me. When I asked the Department whether it would be possible for me to get a copy of their reply since I had not received one, they said that they were in no position to do so.

Sir, this state of affairs really surprises me because I have a high regard for the Postal Services Department which has managed to cope with the ever-increasing volume of work - handling and delivering letters, parcels, etc. with a good degree of efficiency. Then, Sir, to borrow the saying, the last straw came. I was surprised to hear, over the radio, of complaints from residents in Choa Chu Kang Constituency - Sir, I am not for one moment speaking for the Member for Choa Chu Kang who is now absent - that in places like Choa Chu Kang, letters were not delivered in time.

I hope the Minister for Communications will consider my comments with a view to providing either more postmen or

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Motor-cycles.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Motor-cycles, yes. The question of motor-cycles just came to my mind. In Punggol there is only one delivery, and the old motor-cycle used for delivery broke down and a replacement, I believe, was sent for. Unfortunately the new motor-cycle also broke down. Sir, with these remarks, I hope the Minister will care to look into the matter.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to put forward this point: in my constituency of Delta, the postal services are inadequate. As all Members know, Delta is one of the constituencies where mobility is highest, i.e., a lot of people move about. In 1962 the ratio was one to three or one to four. The postal services in my constituency have not shown any improvement since 1962. The Citizens' Consultative Committee has on many occasions asked me why the postal services have not improved. I have requested for more pillar boxes or the opening of more post offices, but these requests have not been acceded to. The Committee has made several representations to the Director of Postal Services, and has also written to the Minister and the Postmaster-General for more pillar boxes or post offices. If the Postal Department thinks that my constituency is too small for a postal branch to be set up, then I would like to mention that in my neighbouring constituencies, i.e., Bukit Ho Swee and Tiong Bahru, there is also a great deal of population movement. With this population movement from 1962 up to now, the ratio is still one to four.

In the last 10 years the number of people in these constituencies who have made use of the postal services is not big. But with the increase of literacy of our population, our postal services have to bear a greater burden because more people know how to read and write, especially the younger set. Of course, in the past some people did not have much of an education, and when they communicated their love to one another, they did so verbally. But nowadays they can write, and so they can express their love through correspondence. Therefore, they have placed a greater burden on the Postal Department.

The other reason is the increase in cultural activities, which has also contributed to the burden of the Postal Department. For instance, many programmes over Television Singapore, such as public forums and games, require correspondence. This has resulted in a greater volume of letters being delivered. As an example, the Chinese Chamber of Commerce organises a public essay competition. All the entries have to rely on the postal services to be delivered. Therefore, we know that the burden on the Postal Department is greater nowadays.

Another point is that in the past people made use of other channels of communication, e.g, oral communication. But nowadays, because of urban renewal development, more and more people are scattered over a wider area, and this necessitates correspondence through the post.

6.00 p.m.

More and more people are making use of the postal services to send messages from one place to another. Therefore, with the increase in population, there is a greater volume of correspondence. It has been said that in the past the number of people who made use of the postal services was only 30 per cent of the population, but now probably 80 per cent of our people make use of them. If our postal services remain in their present state, of course, there will be an increase in inconvenience. The inconvenience is brought about in two ways. First, more and more people will become discontented. Secondly, the postal staff will also become discontented as a result of the heavy load of work. We often say that the postal service staff lose their temper whenever they are overworked and have to bear too great a burden. With a bigger crowd queueing up every day, they find it difficult to cope up with their work. This is one of the reasons why they lose their temper.

I hope the Minister will improve the postal services in the three constituencies I have mentioned. For example, in Queenstown a post office was built to provide for the needs of the people there. I think they are rather privileged. They can get whatever they want. But we in the poorer constituencies cannot get what we want.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am in full sympathy with the Member for Anson. He feels strongly about the fact that the General Post Office building was built as long ago as 1928. It is now more than 40 years old. Conditions in that building may not be as good as in the many new public buildings, some of which are even air-conditioned. Of course, personally I would like to see a new General Post Office building being built somewhere on the water front. It is true that it is possible that certain parts of the building, for instance, the basement, may not be as good as what one would like them to be. However, I shall make surprise checks at the General Post Office in compliance with the Member's request. I want to say that things in the General Post Office will not always be the same. As and when we are able to get sites, we will remove the stores branch which is at present in the basement. I understand a site has been allotted somewhere in Tannery Lane. I think provision has been made in the 1970-71 Estimates. There will, therefore, be additional accommodation at the General Post Office to handle the mail, and conditions should improve as a result of this additional accommodation.

As for Toa Payoh, here again it is our intention to provide more facilities in this new town. But I hope the Member will appreciate that building in Toa Payoh is largely in the hands of the Housing and Development Board. I think the Member is aware that the planning of the town centre was not completed until the latter part of last year. The Housing and Development Board made a statement in the newspapers as follows. I will read this statement which I assume is the official reply:

'The construction of a town centre is expected to start next year [which is 1970]. It is normal practice for the Board to start on the development of the residential sector first and to incorporate a town centre only when the township is three-quarters developed in order that there should be a sufficient population to support the town centre.'

Our post office is part of this town centre. So, much as we would like to provide full postal services for Toa Payoh, the building of a post office in the town centre is in the hands of the Housing and Development Board. When they are ready, we will provide the facilities.

Coming to the Member for Punggol, I am sorry to hear that the delivery of mail in the rural areas is not quite up to expectations. I think if in Singapore we are able to provide even one proper daily service in the rural areas, we have done reasonably well. We do know that there are other countries which may be more affluent, but if you post a letter there, probably that is the last time you will see it. It never gets delivered at all. However, we cannot excuse Singapore of being indifferent. We expect letters, when posted, to be delivered in due time. As stated by the Member for Punggol, it is possible sometimes for letters calling for meetings to have been posted but not delivered until after the event has taken place. It can happen. After all, millions of postal articles are being posted and delivered at any one time. If you allow for .001 per cent of something happening, then it might be that something has happened to that particular letter. Of course, there are the usual difficulties of incorrect addresses or no addresses at all and so on. There could be such difficulties. But if, as stated by the Member, he has taken issue with the Postmaster-General and all that he had received was just a post-card to say that the matter was receiving attention -this was way back in January and now it is almost the end of March - I would like to say that in anticipation of the complaint from the Member, I did ask the Postmaster-General whether there was any specific complaint from the Member. I was told that there was such a complaint. I said, "Please let me have a copy of the complaint and the reply from our department." Mr Speaker, Sir, to my horror I was told that there was no copy of the complaint. I asked how that could be possible. I would, therefore, appreciate it if, after the meeting, the Member would be good enough to let me have that particular reference so that I could follow up to see which particular officer had dealt with the matter.

An hon. Member: Can the Minister say which is the particular officer?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: That is why I want the evidence. I will go right down to the bottom of this matter to assure Members that it is being pursued, especially since it came from a Member of Parliament. Even an ordinary complaint from a member of the public must be looked into carefully.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Order.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Perhaps the motor-cycle went out of order! It can happen to a car or even an aeroplane!

Finally, I would like to reply to the Member for Delta about the inadequacy of postal services in Delta Constituency. I must say, Sir, that the Member is, in fact, very lucky. In the whole of Singapore there are about 41 post offices. She already has not only one post office, but quite a number of post offices close to her constituency. The Alexandra Post Office is inside her constituency, and there are the Tiong Bahru Post Office and the Queenstown Post Office. She is quarrelling about Queenstown being a favoured constituency. I do not know why. A new non-delivery post office is scheduled to be built at Chin Swee Road towards the end of 1970. I hope that will satisfy her.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $19,976,280 for Head 0805 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0806 -

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0806 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2024.

Sir, I notice there is a provision of nearly half a million dollars under this subhead for the payment of daily-rated staff. I suppose the money is required for the cutting of grass. We have many receiving stations where the lalang which grows in the compounds is a couple of feet high. I would be grateful if the Minister for Communications could explain the provision of this large sum for the payment of daily-rated staff.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure the Member for Punggol that this large provision of nearly half a million dollars for daily rated staff is not only for cutting grass. If he will look at the bottom of the page in the estimates, he will see note (ii) which reads: "Includes provision for one House Foreman and four Carpenters." If he will look further up note (1) says: "Provision for daily rated staff now shown separately under Subhead 2024." If he looks at subhead 2008, he will see "Maintenance of Compounds and Buildings"; against subhead 2009 there is "Maintenance of Telecommunications" and against subhead 2010 there is "Maintenance of Vehicles". In the previous year's estimates, that is, for the 15 months from 1969 to 1970, the provision for daily-rated staff was included in this large item of nearly a million dollars. But for the 12 months for this year's estimates, half a million dollars was extracted from this provision and made into a separate subhead.

In reality, the position is as follows. For the year 1969-70, there are as many as 200 daily-rated staff. Then we have 56 Cable and Wireless staff who have been absorbed into Government service, making a total of 256. For this year, there is an increase of only two lorry drivers. In all, there is a total of 258 daily-rated staff. There is no provision for any grass cutters here. All I can say is that out of the 258 daily-rated staff, 107 are office cleaners, labourers, store assistants, etc.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: There is provision for grass cutters.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: It is put in somewhere, but the whole provision is not for grass cutters.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the Minister's satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $12,185,520 for Head 0806 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

6.15 p.m.

Head 0807 -

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs. Ch'ng Jit Koon, Seah Mui Kok, Cheong Yuen Chee, Lim Soo Peng, P. Selvadurai and Madam Chan Choy Siong.)

Sir, I only wish to remind the Minister that it was during the debate in December 1968 that he first indicated that he was giving serious consideration to a proposal for making it compulsory for all vehicles which are more than ten years old to be subjected to a roadworthiness test. Fifteen months have gone by and we have not heard anything further. I am just wondering what is holding up the implementation of the proposal.

In passing, I would also like to ask the Minister how effective the Transport Advisory Board is in helping us solve the all-important subject of public transport.

Mr Seah Mui Kok (Bukit Ho Swee): Mr Speaker, Sir, we have been encouraging the people of Singapore to keep Singapore clean so that we can have a healthy environment and better health for the people. But I have seen many cars, buses and lorries in the streets of Singapore letting out dirty and poisonous fumes from their exhaust pipes. These dirty and poisonous fumes not only pollute the air but they are also endangering the health of the people of Singapore. We must put a stop to it, and the sooner the better. I understand that action has been taken against the offenders but there are still too many vehicles letting out dirty and poisonous fumes.

Sir, I request stronger action should be taken against the offenders and heavier fines should be imposed on them. Perhaps an effective system can be adopted by empowering the Traffic Police to deal with offenders on the spot. I would suggest that the fines be paid by the owners of the vehicles and not by the drivers, because the owners must be responsible for their vehicles. If the emission of dirty and poisonous fumes is due to the negligence of the drivers, then it is up to the owners to deal with them. I hope the Minister will give consideration to my proposal and take strong and immediate action against the offenders for letting out dirty and poisonous fumes from their vehicles. We must not allow them to pollute the air and endanger the health of the people of Singapore.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, with the increase in the tempo of our industrialisation programme, more and more goods are being transported by road. It is not an uncommon sight to see small vehicles carrying large loads and big vehicles carrying loads twice their length. Vehicles which are not designed for certain types of haulage are used indiscriminately along our roads, thereby posing a grave danger to other road users.

Sir, I have witnessed three incidents along the roads in Singapore. One incident was along Jalan Ahmad Ibrahim. A lorry, stacked high with crates of knocked-down units of motorcar spare parts, was negotiating a bend when half a dozen of these crates fell on to the road. Fortunately, my car, which was following behind, was quite some distance away. In another instance at Queenstown Circus, a lorry, carrying goods which were inadequately secured, was negotiating the circus when part of the load fell off the vehicle. In this instance, my car was also following behind, but fortunately nothing untoward happened. In the third instance, a lorry, carrying a lot of steel rods which were twice the length of the lorry itself, was going up a steep incline when suddenly the front of the lorry upended and all the steel rods fell on to the road. As I said, I wonder whether the Registry of Vehicles has any regulations preventing owners of lorries from stacking their vehicles with goods that are two or three times as high as the lorry or goods that are twice the length of the lorry.

It is also a common practice for transport contractors to make the maximum use of their vehicles. For instance, if the lorry is licensed to carry three tons, they will stack goods in it weighing about three tons. Imagine empty oil drums and rattan loaded into the lorry and their height is two or three times that of the lorry. This can create a very dangerous situation for other road users. I hope the Minister for Communications will take notice of such undesirable practices and stop them from being continued.

As regards the bus services in Singapore, we all know that the Singapore Traction Company has a virtual monopoly of city routes. Since it is unable to provide an efficient and frequent service for bus users, I wonder whether the Minister will consider other alternative measures like allowing other bus companies to ply these routes until such time as the S.T.C. can improve their services. There are also frequent break-downs of the Company's buses. In Toa Payoh, this Company has more than half a dozen bus services running. This gives the false impression that it is providing a proper service to the people. But the truth of the matter is that only a minimum number of buses are being used. Can the Minister for Communications look into this matter and try to improve the bus services in the new town?

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Sir, stories of rudeness and cheating by taxi drivers are rampant and are frequently in print in the local newspapers. Some taxi drivers are even reported to have threatened passengers with assault. I have heard that some top civil servants and a Parliamentary Secretary were threatened with assault and abuse. Of course, these rude, dishonest and belligerent taxi drivers are in a minority. But they are enough to give Singapore a bad name to visitors, and if unchecked, may also force local passengers to avoid taking taxis. There must be stricter supervision of these taxi drivers and more energetic action should be taken on complaints by passengers. Recently, there was a campaign to have cleaner taxis. There should also be a campaign to have honest and polite taxi drivers. Furthermore, when it rains, it is impossible to get a taxi. So I hope when the findings of the Transport Advisory Board are to hand, the Minister will consider whether there is a need to issue more taxi licences. Also will he state how many complaints have been received against rude taxi drivers from 1968 to the latest available date and what action has been taken against them?

Mr P. Selvadurai (Bukit Panjang): Mr Speaker, Sir, one small point -and one would have thought that it was a fairly obvious point! In spite of the fact that we have introduced one-way traffic along most of Singapore's roads, it is not difficult to find buses, lorries and even motor-cars travelling abreast of one another at about 20 miles per hour and preventing other road users from going through. It occurred to me quite a number of times, and I would have thought that it would have occurred to most people, that this problem could have been easily solved by the introduction of lanes on the left-hand side of the road for slow traffic and lanes on the middle and right-hand side of the road for faster traffic. I wonder if this plan can be achieved.

Mr Lee Teck Him (Ulu Pandan): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have heard just now that there are about 200 deaths on the road every year. Perhaps the Minister for Health and the Minister for Communications seldom go to the hospital to see how many road accidents occur in Singapore. We realise that most of these fatal cases involve motor-cyclists. Recently, the Minister for Communications ordered all motor-cyclists to wear crash helmets but they were not ordered to put on iron gloves and iron boots. Of course, the head is important and must be protected, but the arms and the limbs are also very important. Can the Minister not see that it is also necessary for motor-cyclists to wear iron gloves and boots? If a youth becomes crippled in an accident for not having iron gloves or boots on, then perhaps the Minister will have to see to the consequences.

There is another point that I want to bring up. When an "L" driver takes his test, he should be asked to pay careful attention to the fundamental rules of driving. Some "L" motor-cyclists go at a terrific speed. At times, they drive recklessly, swerving to the left and to the right. They look like shooting arrows flying past. I myself have witnessed them cutting across the paths of other vehicles in one-way streets. I am worried about the children and old folks on the road. These reckless motor-cyclists are really a menace to these people. They are not aware of this, particularly the young motor-cyclists who have their girl friends as pillion riders. They want to show off and they are liable to skid on slippery roads. Therefore, the Minister for Communications should advise motor-cyclists to be more careful when driving on newly-metalled roads and sandy stretches on rainy days when certain stretches of the roads are dangerous for driving. Driving testers should also inform them, during the test, that when they are about to negotiate a corner and they cannot see anything in front, they should not speed and they should not overtake the vehicles in front. They should pass all these tests before licences are issued to them. Sir, I hope the Minister will consider my suggestions regarding testing for "L" drivers and motor-cyclists.

6.30 p.m.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, sometime in the middle of February this year, a number of driving licence holders whose licences expired either in the middle of February or at the end of February went to the Registrar of Vehicles to have their licences renewed. They had a document stating that their licences were expiring sometime in the middle of February. However, they were told that all licences were valid only up to the end of January because of the introduction of computers. In other words, although a driver actually had his licence valid till about the 15th February, he was told that, in actual fact, his licence had expired at the end of January. These licence holders were also told that the Registrar of Vehicles wrote to them informing them of the introduction of computers, and, as a result, licences were only valid till the end of January. Therefore, not renewing their licences at the end of January was an offence and, although they had lost some days as a result of the introduction of computerisation, they had to pay a fine. This is a little incongruous because they had an authorised licence which stated, "Your licence expires on, say, 18th February"; yet when they went to the Registry of Vehicles on the 15th February to have their licences renewed, they were told that their licences had, in actual fact, expired at the end of January because of computerisation. I think this practice is wrong as they were still holding licences valid up to the middle of February. Even if with the introduction of computerisation, their licences should have been renewed on the 31st of January, I feel they should not have been fined for late renewal. Sir, I hope the Minister will find it possible to comment on this matter.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, first, I would like to answer the query from the Member for Jalan Kayu. I will take his second question first. As to how effective the Transport Advisory Board is, I wish to say that I consider it to be of great value to me, because it does help to get opinion outside of official quarters, as a good number of the members on the Advisory Board are not in Government service. They are people who are prepared to express an opinion on a difficult subject, that of traffic in Singapore. I have seen to it, too, that my Parliamentary Secretary be the Chairman of this Board. So, in my opinion, the Transport Advisory Board is doing a good service and I want to say how much I appreciate its good work. Most of its recommendations have been accepted. The second interim report has come to me early this month and it is under study. I can, I think, divulge some of its main recommendations, but I will not disclose the details. The recommendations cover the subjects of ordinary taxis, school taxis (the SCH cars), school buses, and the age limit of public service vehicles. These are the main recommendations, and as soon as I am in a position to form an opinion on them, they will be made public.

I agree that I have given an undertaking to look into the matter of checking old cars on the roads. However, I have found it better not to confine my study of the problem only to old private vehicles, but to all other types of vehicles as well. I have therefore withheld action, and as indicated just now, the Transport Advisory Board has made certain recommendations on the age limit of public service vehicles. So when I do come to a decision on public service vehicles, I will at the same time make a decision on private cars. I hope that my explanation will satisfy the Member for Jalan Kayu.

In reply to the comments by the Member for Bukit Ho Swee on air pollution, the smoky exhaust from cars, taxis, buses, lorries and so on, I want to say that action has been taken in recent years on these matters. I would like to say that the Traffic Police compounded as many as 7,353 cases in 1969; that is to say, when a traffic policeman notices a car emitting smoke from its exhaust pipe, the driver is given a ticket and is asked to report to the police station where he is allowed to compound his offence for $20. There were 7,353 such cases last year. In addition, last year we called up 8,800 vehicles for a check-up of their exhaust at the Registrar of Vehicles' office. Therefore, in total, about 16,000 vehicles were pulled up. They were mainly diesel-operated cars.

I would like to say that it is the intention of my Ministry to conduct a campaign against air pollution very soon. There will be stronger measures taken against cars with smoky exhaust be they private cars, lorries, taxis, buses and so on. When the campaign is to be set in motion, we will give adequate notice to the public before we proceed to take stronger action against smoky vehicles.

Coming to the comments of the Member for Toa Payoh on overloading of vehicles as a result of our rapid industrialisation, with lorries overloading goods and building materials, I think there is something up the sleeve of my colleague, the Minister for Defence, to deal with this matter. His very active Traffic Police does go round ticketing the offenders. I am sure they will continue to keep up with their good work to book them so that the recalcitrants will not find it profitable to overload their lorries.

As regards the inability of the Singapore Traction Company to provide an adequate service for Toa Payoh, I would like to say that, in my opinion, there are not enough buses to serve Singapore today. There are, in all, only about 1,500 buses owned by the S.T.C. and the other 11 Chinese bus companies to provide a public transport service for Singapore. We are looking into this matter of inadequate buses for public transport. In fact, we are getting the Singapore Traction Company's co-operation to permit the Chinese bus companies to operate bus services along certain routes for which it is unable to provide an adequate service. There is closer co-ordination now than in the past among the 12 bus companies. I am confident that given a little bit more time and discussion, we may be able to co-ordinate the bus services of Singapore and to improve them in due course. Certain matters are under discussion and I think it would not be proper for me to reveal them here at this stage.

Coming to the comments of the Member for Havelock on rudeness and cheating by taxi drivers, he has, I think, partly answered the criticism by saying that only some of the taxi drivers are bad. As in any stratum of society, there are always the good and the bad. So I think it is not fair to pinpoint them, especially as the Member for Changi wants to know who these rude taxi drivers are, because he has to defend his drivers as well. There is no doubt that we are taking action on these complaints. Most times complainants are not prepared to furnish particulars. That is why it is difficult to follow up on such complaints. But if after investigation we do find they are genuine complaints, we will either suspend the taxi driver concerned from driving for one week or longer, or even cancel his licence if it is necessary. The Member has asked for the number of complaints from 1968. Details will probably take some time to be forthcoming, but I hope he will be satisfied if I send him the figures later by post for his follow-up and criticism. However, I can assure him that when we get complaints, we do follow up, provided the complaints lodged give all the necessary particulars, and not complaints stating merely that there is an overcharge and so forth.

Coming to the Member for Bukit Panjang who suggested the marking out of slow and fast traffic lanes, I think this is a very good suggestion which I am sure the Transport Advisory Board will give due consideration. We have the Officer-in-Charge of the Traffic Police on the Transport Advisory Board. So a matter like this will receive due attention.

Next comes the Member for Ulu Pandan. I cannot see how, after advising motor-cyclists to wear crash helmets to save their skulls, the Member is suggesting that they should also wear iron gloves to save them from breaking their arms. That is something which I think cannot be taken too seriously. He also suggests lecturing to young people who ride motor-cycles. It is unfortunate that young people will always do something reckless, and they have to pay the price for their recklessness. We can only advise them as best we can.

The Member for Telok Blangah talks about driving licences which actually expired in mid-month but, because of computerisation, had been valid up to the end of the preceding month only, so that the holders of these licences lost out by two or three weeks. As a result, they were fined for not renewing their licences in time. However, even if they were fined, it was only $3. I think they had been given one full year's notice of this change, and such a thing happens once in a lifetime. Perhaps we can just forget about it. It is all over now. Because of computerisation, some people would stand to gain something, while others would stand to lose something.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: In view of the not unsatisfactory answers, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

6.45 p.m.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1012.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Sir, I am not moving.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2012.

In moving this amendment, I just want to seek elucidation from the Minister why there is a provision of $4,000 for Highway Code Tests.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, in the past, Highway Code tests were done orally. But because of the large number of people being kept waiting to take their driving tests, which include the Highway Code test, we decided to institute a written test. It is like an examination paper where everything is done in writing. In an oral test the tester can take probably 10 or 20 candidates per day, but a written test can perhaps take 400 candidates per day. The applicant's paper is marked, and he either passes or fails the examination. So this money really is to pay for the stationery and a small fee, like an examiner's fee, for the people who mark the papers. I think this expenditure is really worth while.

For the 11 months from April 1969 to February 1970 since we started this written Highway Code test, there were 10,632 candidates, of whom 7,642 passed, or nearly 72 per cent. In this way, less people are kept waiting in the queue for their driving tests. It is our opinion that this sum of $4,000 will be well spent.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, in view of the Minister's satisfactory reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,280,090 for Head 0807 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0901 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong)

The Defence Estimates for this year take the greatest part of our expenditure, totalling $320 million. We know that the Government provides this large sum because of practical needs. I would like to raise three questions. First, whether national service has affected highly qualified technical personnel. Second, whether the Minister is considering national service for women. Third, whether we have adequate measures to counter the entry of illegal immigrants.

On the first question we know that national service has been very successful since its introduction. As a young country we have managed to achieve a great deal in respect of our defence within a short period of time. This is commendable. We know that in order to build up our defence forces, we have to adopt a strict policy on the implementation of national service. For the good of the country, this policy is beyond reproach. But as a result of the strict implementation of national service, a number of problems have arisen. For example, certain engineering students in the University have been called up for national service. This has caused a shortage of engineers in Government and statutory boards, such as the Economic Development Board, and also in some factories. Let me quote an example. There were two mechanical engineering graduates from New Zealand, one a Malaysian citizen, and the other a Singapore citizen. The Malaysian citizen was very quickly appointed by the Government. On the other hand, the Singapore citizen, who is also a mechanical engineer, was called up for national service. Is this not a show of favouritism?

I realise that it is the duty of a citizen to undergo national service, but when we suffer from a severe shortage of engineers who are needed for the development of our economy and industry, we should make good use of the talent of our graduates in this field, so that they can play a greater part in contributing towards the building of our country. I think the Minister will agree with me that it is equally important to develop our industries and our economy. If we can do so without affecting national service, I would like to ask him if he will give special consideration to these engineering graduates who are called up for national service. For example, perhaps we can devise some arrangement whereby we could put them on part-time national service. I do not know what the Minister thinks about this suggestion.

The second point is in regard to national service by our women. I remember during the debate on the last Budget, I asked the Minister whether the Government was considering drafting our women into national service. The Minister's reply then was that this was a very good suggestion, but because we did not have enough instructors, the plan was temporarily postponed and he would reconsider it at a later stage. But now after a lapse of about two years, I think we have a greater number of instructors. Therefore, the time has come for us to consider the implementation of national service for our women.

Sir, the reasons for putting forward this suggestion are twofold. First, we believe in equality of the sexes, and, therefore, our women should also shoulder their responsibility of protecting our country. Duty and responsibility come together. Second, it is necessary for us to ensure that, in the utilisation of our resources, we will not meet with a lop-sided situation, that is, concentrating on one aspect and neglecting the other. Our female citizens should do their part in national service. All our youths have to do national service, and therefore they are hampered or restricted. Some of them cannot go for further studies. If we allow this situation to carry on, we will find that our youths, as compared to our girls, will suffer. Our women will be graduates, scholars or doctors of philosophy, and the majority of our men will be just ordinary citizens and soldiers and not distinguished professionals. Our society will be lopsided in favour of the women, and there will be no equality of the sexes. I think all Members of Parliament will not like this to happen, because if it did, then perhaps there would be more lady Members than male Members of Parliament. The purpose of nation building is to have a society where both sexes are equal. We do not like to see a reversal of the situation where they are not equal. So we should deal with this question very carefully. I think the girls will support the idea of drafting them for national service. There are many countries in the world which have done this. For example, Israel has already inducted women into national service. And we can learn from them how to induct our girls into national service.

The last point that I would like to raise is this. Not very long ago we amended our immigration laws to help us deal with the question of illegal immigrants. Since then, have we had better control over illegal immigrants?

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Sembawang was very kind when he said that women should do national service and so play their part. His logic is this: if the women should survive, then the men would have no place to go to.

Everybody is concerned with the question of defence. When the British Government announced its accelerated withdrawal by the end of 1971, i.e., all the British armed forces stationed in Singapore will be fully withdrawn by the end of 1971, our Government started to carry out effective schemes in advance to prepare for such a situation.

7.00 p.m.

Every young man in our country will then become patriotic. He will be concerned about the welfare of the people. Our youths will have a sense of patriotism and take up military training. Within a short time we have managed to build up a strong defence force, consisting of brave and strong soldiers who will defend our country.

I would like to ask the Minister whether we have plans to replace all the military personnel as well as all the military equipment which are being withdrawn by the British. In other words, can we take over the role played by the British? Our original defence planning was based on the assumption that the British armed forces would be withdrawn in 1971 or 1972. Our defence forces might be able to replace the British armed forces by that date. But as they are to be withdrawn earlier than anticipated, do we have enough trained men to fill the vacuum left by them? Can the Minister say whether we can replace the British armed forces with our own forces when they finally withdraw?

Needless to say, the Government has been quite successful in its efforts to build up our armed forces. However, as the Member for Sembawang has mentioned just now, as a result of national service, there is a shortage of skilled manpower and this is having an effect on our nation building. Will the Minister, therefore, introduce some changes in the regulations governing national service? National service can be introduced in the schools. The youths of Singapore should undergo national service earlier, preferably when they are still in the Primary schools. They should begin their national service training in Primary V or VI. They can receive military training and acquire knowledge of military affairs at this stage, and when they go to the Secondary schools they can then receive regular military training, including training in the handling of weapons. In this way, they will have undergone some military training and have acquired a knowledge of how to use military equipment by the time they leave school.

The Member for Sembawang has also said just now that both males and females should undergo national service. If we can introduce some changes in our national service regulations according to what has been suggested, then both males and females will undergo national service at the same time.

At present, there are many uniformed groups in the schools, e.g., the School Cadet Corps. These groups have done some military training and gained some knowledge of the use of military equipment. In view of this, it is not impossible to introduce some changes in our national service regulations on the lines suggested. At the same time, we can also solve the problem of the shortage of highly skilled manpower and technical personnel which has arisen as a result of national service. A great number of technical personnel have been called up for national service. This shortage of technical personnel is hampering our efforts to develop our economy. If we can build up our defence forces on the lines suggested, we can perhaps reduce the sum provided for defence expenditure.

In the past, in order to meet the situation brought about by the accelerated British military withdrawal, national service was implemented as a matter of course. But we have reached a saturation point in this respect. Perhaps we should introduce some changes in our national service regulations.

I would like to bring another matter to the attention of the Minister for Defence. Under the present national service regulations, every citizen on reaching 21 years of age will have to report to the Kallang Manpower Base for registration. May I ask the Minister whether or not it is true that a certain number of rich men's sons have been exempted from national service? I have heard some people say that the sons of poor people have to undergo national service and that the sons of rich people can escape it. We should treat all people alike. We should perhaps make a public announcement that that is not true.

Another point concerns the Immigration Department. If Mr Speaker thinks that the topic on immigration can be postponed until we come to debate it, then I will wait. But I am afraid that when the time comes, there will not be enough time to discuss it.

When we were talking on education, I had many points to raise, but I had gone through only half of my questions when the Moment of interruption came.

The Chairman: The Member should wait until we come to the debate on immigration before speaking on it.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I will then wait until we come to the debate on immigration.

Another question I wish to ask the Minister is this. When the Japanese invaded Singapore, a great number of our people bravely undertook the defence of our country and some sacrificed their lives. At that time they joined what was known as the Civil Defence Corps. Many of them were killed by the Japanese in the course of defending our country, leaving behind them widows and orphans and other dependants. All the dependants of the victims were compensated according to the regulations in force. The Government has all this time been paying a fixed rate of allowances to the widows and orphans. I wish to ask a question which was also brought up in this House last week but not pursued in great detail. I wish to talk on this matter in greater detail now. These dependants were to receive their allowances on the 27th day of the Chinese calendar month preceding the Chinese New Year. At that time traffic congestion was at its worst. As usual, these people went to the second floor of Fullerton Building to collect their allowances. The staff there told them that from then onwards their allowances were to be cut almost in half. For example, if they were receiving $45 before, they would receive only $19.50 on that day. They did not tell the dependants when to collect the balance of the money. They only told them to collect it at the Ministry of Defence. Some of them then went to the M.I.D., the same afternoon. When they reached the M.I.D., it was almost closing time. The staff there told them that they could not make any payment as it was closing time and requested them to come again the following day. The following day was the 28th day, according to the Chinese calendar, and the traffic congestion was terrible. These people had to pay about $3 in taxi fare.

The Chairman: Under Standing Order 43, paragraph (8) (a), the Member has already had her 15 minutes.

7.15 p.m.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am very glad that you have allowed me to speak, because I wish to touch on the question of national service. Sir, we all know that in 1971, the British will be withdrawing their armed forces east of Suez, including those stationed in Singapore. Therefore, the defence of Singapore will be our responsibility. In building up our defences, our Government has started its planning and implementation of national service. This is, of course, beyond our criticism. The concept of national service has now received widespread support of the majority of our people. But we must be cautious in implementing the technical details so that our progress in nation building is not affected. We must also ensure that the livelihood of our people is not affected. If we can bear in mind these points when implementing the policy, then I am sure the people will be willing to go through all sorts of hardship and suffering for the sake of our country.

Recently, the Minister for Defence announced that students who have completed pre-university education and who are 18 years old will have to register for national service and will have to undergo national service for three years. I would like to know whether careful consideration has been given to the implementation of this policy. I think hasty implementation will lead to a number of undesirable consequences. In the first place, it will have a bad effect on the education of our youths. Although the education policy of our Government now places emphasis on technical education, we should not overlook the general education policy of our country, i.e., primary, secondary and tertiary education. Furthermore, if all H.S.C. holders are conscripted, the enrolment at our institutions of higher learning will be drastically reduced. And as the Member for Sembawang has mentioned, these institutions will have only female students. In Singapore, university education is quite a common affair. Every parent would like his or her boy to receive a university education. Our country, which depends on the utilisation of human resources, should try to make use of the talents of our youths. If we make it compulsory for all H.S.C. holders to undergo national service for three years and if they are admitted to the Universities after this period, they will have forgotten a great deal of what they have learnt in school unless the M.I.D. can arrange for them to attend academic courses when they are undergoing national service. It is only in this way that the general education policy of our country will not be affected.

There are five institutions of higher learning in our country which have trained and educated many of our citizens over the decades. If we implement this new regulation, then these institutions will find that their enrolment will be reduced. And in time to come we will find that the professional people who are required by our country will be predominantly females.

Another point is the adverse effect on the physique and minds of the students. We know that pre-university students at the most are about 18 years old. Some of them are not fully developed physically and are immature. With only a Higher School Certificate, it is difficult for them to compete in our society which is full of talented and capable people. If they cannot pursue their university education, then our country will lose a lot of talent. Therefore, I hope the Minister will reconsider the policy to conscript pre-university students. Personally, I feel that pre-university students who are not going for further studies should be enlisted. However, if they achieve good results in the Higher School Certificate examinations and if they want to go on to the Universities, the M.I.D, should defer enlisting them until such time as they complete their university education. In this way, they will be better qualified.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Defence made a press statement on 24th January this year on the policy of enlisting our youths who have completed their Higher School Certificate education for full-time national service if they are above the age of 18 years. This is not a wise move from the socio economic and academic points of view. If this policy of enlistment is implemented, it will create a very serious gap of discontinuity between secondary and university education. Further, the pace of industrialisation and economic development of our Republic will be slowed down for lack of graduates and professionals to man the essential posts in the various fields. Sir, we must remember that only a small percentage of our youths who have completed pre-university education are accepted for admission into our institutions of higher learning. If we introduce full-time national service in between pre-university and university education and against the will of the pre-university boys who are keen on higher studies, it is likely to cause dissatisfaction among them and their parents.

Moreover, after two or three years' full-time national service, our boys will find it very difficult, if not impossible, to continue their studies in the institutions of higher learning. Further, this new policy of enlistment can dampen the secondary school boys' spirit and interest in study, because they know very well that they will be called up upon the completion of their pre-university education. This new policy also appears to be incompatible with our drive for greater economic growth for which we require more and more qualified personnel in the various fields. What is more important is that if our supply of professionals cannot keep up with the increasing demand, we may have to turn to foreign countries for our needs. This is happening now and we certainly do not wish to see the situation worsen. I contend that the new policy of enlistment of Higher School Certificate holders is not consistent with our present policy of self-reliance and will prove to be detrimental to the economy of our country in the long run.

The Minister for Defence said in his press statement that arrangements would be made for H.S.C. holders to attend academic courses during their full-time national service. He further said that there would be plans for those who have attained commissioned officers' rank, and have achieved good results in the academic courses provided by the Singapore Armed Forces during their three years of training, to be considered for a credit of one academic year in their accepted course of study. This, of course, is a very very good arrangement, but I doubt whether it is practical to implement. Sir, military training is a full-time course by itself and the trainees will find little time for study after long hours of usually strenuous physical training.

Sir, probably you are aware that in some advanced countries there is a military academy which offers its graduates commissioned officers' rank as well as academic degrees, usually the Bachelor of Science degree. Until we can afford to have such a military academy, we have to be satisfied with our own system of national service. If we do have such a military academy, I am sure it needs no compulsion at all to call our youths to join the academy for their military training as well as for academic degrees. But, for the moment, let us not deprive the universities of the cream of our youths who are so badly needed for the training of qualified personnel for our country. I would therefore urge the Minister for Defence not to implement the new policy of enlisting Higher School Certificate holders for full-time national service until they have completed their university education.

7.30 p.m.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I did not intend to speak, but as this is a matter touching on defence, which is extremely important, I have to vent my feelings. Yesterday I said that because defence expenditure is too great - of course, I am not objecting to the provision for national defence - we should think of some better methods to reduce it. I suggest that national service should start in our schools. Why should the Minister for Defence conscript youths after they leave school? This is not quite a good method. So we should change it and arrange for national service for boys while they are at school. In other words, give them some sort of military training while they are in school. In this way, we can save a lot of money.

Ours is a small country, and we are a member of a five-nation defence pact. I am against this five-nation defence pact. What kind of strength will it have? I am afraid that one day our Minister for Defence may have to be our Commander-in-Chief and lead the army in defence of our country. But we have only a small army and it will be wiped out in one battle. There will be no more males left. Singapore will then become a women's country. Some outsiders will have to be brought into Singapore to marry the females. This is not a favourable situation. What kind of a five-nation defence grouping do we have? What kind of defence can we have?

We are going to hold a big defence exercise in the coming month, but this will be held outside Singapore! People will die laughing at this joke. If you want to hold a defence exercise, you should hold it in your own country. How are you going to have a defence exercise if it is held in a foreign territory? People may think that you are going to invade their country. The defence exercise is going to be held on the 1st of April. The Communists will consider this defence exercise as aiming at committing aggression against some other countries.

Why should we have this five-nation joint defence pact? Britain and Australia will ask us to be the vanguard and they will just queue up behind. Therefore, we will be the first to be killed. When that happens, what will happen to our country? Is our Minister for Defence willing to become our Commander-in-Chief? If he is daring enough, then we will carry on with the defence exercise. If not, let us abandon it.

The Minister for Defence (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, first, I would like to take up the three points raised by the Member for Sembawang. The first is a question. He wonders whether national service will affect industrial progress. I think it must be made very clear to Members that the shortage in skilled manpower would still exist if we had not started building up the armed forces. I agree that national service does aggravate the shortage, but it is only temporary. The effect that national service has on the shortage of skilled labour is very slight, because a man will be doing national service for only two or three years, depending upon whether he is an officer or a private. At the end of his national service, he will be discharged with skills acquired in the armed forces. In other words, he is available to the labour market. Therefore, what national service has done is to withhold labour from the labour market for a period of only two years or three years. It is a temporary shortage and the effect is not, as the Member for Paya Lebar implies, an adverse one. In fact, it is possible that when a Singapore citizen is conscripted at 18 years of age for national service, he has no skill at all. He will acquire some skill during his training. In other words, he is being trained, so that by the time he is discharged from national service, he will be a semi-skilled or a skilled worker. I think this point must be made perfectly clear - that the shortage of skilled labour would have been there even if we had no conscription. The shortage, on account of national service, is only temporary. It is a delay, in making labour available to the private sector. I hope this is clear to Back-benchers.

I think the Member for Sembawang must realise that the success we have achieved in industrialisation, apart from other factors - the infrastructure that we have built, the good investment climate, the skills and energy of our workers - is also due to the fact that we are building up our own defence. We are becoming self-reliant. We are taking steps to make ourselves self-reliant, but I would not say that, by ourselves, we would be in a position to defend ourselves. I would say that we are taking steps, and because it is seen and known that we are taking steps, we are contributing towards the security of this region. Therefore, it is not all in vain that we are building up our armed forces.

The second proposition of the Member for Sembawang is that we should consider conscripting the fair sex. I did say that we would consider it. In fact, I have considered it. I am a bit surprised that the usually gallant Member for Sembawang feels that women should not play a more important role than they are playing in Parliament. If he subscribes to the principle that there should be equality between men and women, I think he should welcome the fair sex here. If they have the capacity and ability, there is no reason why this Parliament should not be dominated by them.

He says conscription of the males would give the females certain advantages. I do not believe this is so, because there are many other jobs for males. As far as I can see, nature ordains that certain jobs are best done by females and there are certain jobs best done by males. In other words, by virtue of their sex, there is already an ordained role for each sex, and there are certain jobs which women cannot do as well as men, no matter how loudly they protest that they are equal! Therefore, the absence in certain areas of work of the males for three years will not in any way give women an advantage. The Member also says that if we conscript the males, then in certain jobs the women will be ahead. They have the advantage of an earlier start. I do not think he has taken into consideration the fact that some time in the lives of women they get married, give birth, and rear children. Therefore, the fact that they are females and do give birth does have an in-built disadvantage as regards competing with men in work. So I do not think that the conscription of men into national service does give women any advantage.

The Member for Sembawang also asked whether the Immigration (Amendment) Bill has had any results. We have not implemented this Bill yet because it is awaiting the President's Assent, and therefore it is too early for me to forecast what the results will be.

To come to the Member for Delta; I think there is a misconception in what she said about our role in defence when the British leave. We can never, by any stretch of the imagination, fill the vacuum left by the accelerated British withdrawal. On our own, we can never play the role which the British has played here. From the numerical and financial points of view, it is impossible for us to fill that vacuum. The sooner we realise that, the better it is for us. We hope we will be able to contribute together with those nations of like mind in this area, towards preserving the peace and stability which all of us desire. The Member for Delta suggests that we can start training young students in school. It is not possible because, first and foremost, they are too young. Physically they will not be able to stand the rigorous training that is required in our armed forces. Secondly, as I have so often repeated, time is needed to train an effective army. The Member reminds us of the heroes who sacrificed their lives during the Japanese invasion. Here is an excellent example of people who went to war partly trained. They were annihilated in no time. We would not like to be placed in such a position if and when the occasion arises. It is my duty and responsibility to see that all those who go through training in the armed forces have the capacity and ability to defend Singapore if the time comes. Therefore, the Member's proposition that we should give military training to school children is out.

The Member for Ulu Pandan says that we will save money by giving military training to children in school. I do not understand how that can be done. For the information of Members, the money spent is not so much on training as on the weapons that we have to buy. That takes up most of the money spent in the M.I.D.

7.45 p.m.

May I correct the Member for Delta on this point? All Singapore male citizens on attaining the age of 18 and not 21 years have to report to the Central Manpower Base for national service. As for her allegation that the sons of rich people have been able to get away with national service. I say that is utter rubbish. I would like to know who they are. I have heard of this, and have asked people who mentioned it, to me, "Give me their names, and I will find out how they escaped the dragnet." This allegation is utter rubbish, because it is our policy to see that everyone is treated equally, regardless of whether the boy's father is a multi-millionaire or a poor man. It is essential for the success of our scheme that no one is treated differently from the others.

Coming to her unfinished comment on the trouble in paying pensioners, which arose out of the reorganisation of the office concerned, I agree with her that this was largely because not enough forethought was given by the officers to the problem. The change took place at a very unfortunate period, i.e., just before the Chinese New Year. This is an eye-opener to some of my officers, and they will now have to take into consideration certain factors which normally they will not take into consideration. This will make them more careful in future when implementing any change of policy.

On the matter raised by the Member for Paya Lebar, I say that this is a very old story. We must understand that because we are now an independent country, the present generation of Singaporeans must be resigned to the fact and they must be willing, and must understand - that they have to spend a part of their lives in training for the defence of their country. Once that is understood, once that is expected of them, a Singaporean will feel proud that he has the opportunity that was denied to earlier generations to protect and shoulder arms for his country. By then all this little talk about inconvenience or hardship will disappear.

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lim Kim San: This point must be understood: if you want to be a worthwhile Singaporean, and if you want to be proud of your country, it is time you accepted the fact that you have to assign a portion of your life to the defence of your country. We have thought very long over this question: what is the best time to call up these people? We have had conscription for slightly more than two years. From our experience and from the experience of those whom we know, we find that the age of 18 is the best age to conscript our youths. This is the time when we can inculcate in them a sense of loyalty, leadership, and dedication.

We have drafted graduates from the Universities too, but the amount of trouble that we had from them is not commensurate with their number. When we first conscripted them sometime in 1968, the Chinese Chamber of Commerce sent a deputation to see me to give reasons why the graduates should not be conscripted. As a counter to their argument, I asked, "When do you think they should be conscripted?" They said, "Eighteen years of age." And 18 is the age when they pass their Higher School Certificate. So when I made the announcement some time ago that we would conscript youths at 18 years of age, there was a hue and cry from this group. And I said, "Give me your reasons why they should not be conscripted." But up till today they have neither come to see me nor have they sent in anything in writing. And I am still waiting. Because if they did come to me, what they could say would be contrary to what they had said in the first place. So there you are - a portion of the time of the young male citizens of Singapore must be spent in serving the country and to be trained for service to the country. It is up to us, who have worked and thought long over this question, to decide what is the best age for national service.

Then there was the allegation that, after national service of three years when they enrol for the University they will forget what they have learnt before. That is utter rubbish too. There are a large number of people including some Members here, who have had their education interrupted by the war. And we are not the only ones; millions of people in other countries have had their education interrupted by the Second World War. Yet because they had the will to pursue higher studies, they managed to graduate from the University. Half the Cabinet members here have had their education interrupted by the war. In fact, I would say that after two or three years in the army, our boys will be more mature, more sober and much steadier when they join the University, and the University will be a much better place for them.

As for the argument that the University will be empty - I do not like to use the word "rubbish" again, but I am afraid I cannot find a better word to describe this nonsense - I think the Members who advance this argument have not read what I said. I said that among the 18-year olds, those who can win scholarships will be allowed to continue their studies in the University. And among the H.S.C. students there is quite a large number - about 700 to 800 - who will not have attained the age of 18 years when they pass the H.S.C. These students will be allowed to go into the University to continue their studies. So your Universities will not be empty, but will be filled with them. Moreover, the holding back of these 18-year olds in the pre-University classes for higher studies will be only for three years, after which they will come out from the armed forces. All this misconception of national service has arisen largely because it has just been implemented. There must be a time for these boys to fulfil their obligations, after which they will be churned out in the usual way. So, in actual fact, everything considered, there is only a withholding of three years.

For those who join the University at the age of 18 or those who have the option to join after a period of time because they have passed their pre-University examination before reaching the age of 18, national service and service in the armed forces is a new obligation. But after this experience, I can guarantee Members that in five years' time, they will say, "We wished we had joined the Armed Forces at the age of 18 and then proceeded on to the University." Mark my words! I may not be here in five to ten years' time, but the majority of you will be here to witness it.

I think that partly also answers the queries raised by the Member for Mountbatten. I did mention the word "self-reliance", but I do not know how he took it to mean. To me, self-reliance means you rely on your own self for everything. We have got to rely on our own selves for the defence of our country.

The question whether it is possible to give academic tuition to pre-University students while they are doing their national service for three years is being gone into by the staff of both the Ministry of Science and Technology and my Ministry. I think there is a possibility of doing it, and we are exploring every available avenue to give pre-University national servicemen some sort of academic training so that they can qualify for a year's credit when they join the University.

As for the Member for Ulu Pandan, his argument on our defence capability is fantastic. I am not proud of him, either as a Singapore citizen or as a Member of Parliament. What he has suggested is a cowardly way out - that because we are too small, therefore, we cannot stand up against anybody. I say this: if we have the determination, we will stand up against the biggest country in this region.

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Sir, what I asked just now was whether or not the joint exercise that is to be held in another territory will be construed as some kind of invasion. The Minister has not replied to that. I do not know what he is talking about.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, the mere fact that we are taking part in a joint exercise with friendly countries in this region means that they realise we have a contribution to make towards the peace and stability of this region. They do not consider us to be an enemy. They consider us to be a protector of democracy in this region. That is why we are participating in this joint exercise with other countries -the Five Powers - in foreign territory. We are welcomed there, because we can contribute to the peace and stability of South-east Asia, in which all countries in this region are interested.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am not satisfied with the reply given by the Minister. If war breaks out, will he dare to say the same thing about the defence of peace and security?

Mr Lim Kim San: It is our duty to see that no enemy catches us.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to clarify certain points. The Minister has spoken generally on youths doing national service. I do not think he understood fully what I said. What I said was that these youths should be allowed to proceed with their university or college education before they are recruited for national service. He now demands that they do national service after they have completed their secondary education. Does he not know that the two kinds of national service, full-time and part-time, are the same ultimately? Why did he say that it is not correct to allow these students to finish their university education before doing national service? They would still be patriotic citizens of our country.

I also mentioned three years' training. I gave examples, but what the Minister can only say is that some of them will be able to continue with their higher education after three years' national service.

8.00 p.m. The Chairman: Order. Mr Teong, would you like to withdraw your amendment?

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the detailed reply given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The time allotted for Head 0901 having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with:

Mr Tay Boon Too:

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(3) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1281.

Inche Abdul Aziz Karim:

Mr J. F. Conceicao:

Mr P. Selvadurai:

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301.

Mr Tay Boon Too:

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1371.

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1401.

Mr Ho Kah Leong:

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1556.

Mr N. Govindasamy:

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1687.

Mr Low Guan Onn:

(9) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3004.

Madam Chan Choy Siong:

(10) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $100.

The sum of $266,370,960 for Head 0901 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Speaker: So be it.