ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1972, to 31st MARCH, 1973

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [4th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.36 p.m.

Head 1101 -

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Yeo Choo Kok, Ho See Beng and Seah Mui Kok.)

Sir, in my criticism of the Ministry of Law and National Development, I would like to confine myself to three topics, (1) Planning for development; (2) The co-ordination between Urban Renewal and Resettlement Departments; and (3) The Lettings and Sales Sections of the Housing and Development Board. In fact, it can be said that the coordination among all the agencies that I have just outlined also leaves much, to be desired.

Sir, it appears as if plans are drawn for an area earmarked for development, and as soon as the overall plans are approved the squatters and landowners are issued with clearance and land acquisition notices. No planning or co-ordination takes place at this juncture for the number of houses to be cleared, within what period and to where they are to be resettled. Phased acquisition of land and land clearance is not properly carried out. Squatters and landowners are asked to move out even though the Resettlement Department is unable to provide suitable alternative .accommodation.

Sir, you are aware that Telok Blangah is under an intensive urban renewal project, and I know what I am talking about. In some phases of acquisition, one-room flats are offered to large families, because they are the only ones available. In other phases of acquisition, families which cannot afford to pay high rentals are offered 2-room and 3-room flats because these are the only ones available. The Lettings and Sales Sections cannot cope up with flat requirements of the Resettlement Department and everybody is under pressure, including the Member of Parliament. Could this not be the fault of the overall planning in the Housing and Development Board?

In other cases, the whole area is served with notices of clearance and only partial clearance of smaller areas, like kampongs, takes place. Sometimes even after one year of the serving of clearance notices, nothing happens. Owners of houses do not repair dwellings while under clearance notices, and tenants' requests for Housing and Development Board flats are not met, the reason being that the areas are not required for immediate clearance.

Sir, nobody likes to move out of a place where one has been living in for years, paying low rentals, or no rental at all in the rural and suburban areas. If people, who are already reluctant to move out, are further burdened by the offer of flats miles away from where they work, resentment breaks out especially when they have to pay higher rentals and have to travel longer distances to their places of work.

Many of my constituents in Pulau Brani, Sentosa, Bukit Theresa, Bukit Purmei, Radin Mas and Kampong Heap Guan San, who are all affected by urban renewal, are dependent on the Port of Singapore Authority and the sea for their livelihood. They also belong to the lower income group. If they are offered alternative accommodation far away from the area of their means of livelihood as a result of bad planning, we cannot blame the citizens if they offer resistance. If planning in phases is well thought out, one area of Telok Blangah could have been acquired first, and flats built to re-house residents of other areas of Telok Blangah or those residents in close proximity to the Constituency. This has neither been thought out nor done.

Sir, the Minister for Finance during his Financial Policy Statement mentioned the Sentosa Development Corporation. Many residents of Sentosa are boatmen, solely depending on the sea for their livelihood, i.e, ferrying cargo. They ply between ships anchored in the outer roads and Singapore. They have contributed to the entrepot trade of Singapore and will continue to contribute to make the Singapore harbour a thriving one. They are an economic necessity to the survival of Singapore. I have no quarrel with making Sentosa a tourist paradise. But what does the Government propose to do with the residents of Sentosa who depend upon the sea for their livelihood? If they are moved out, will they be given alternative accommodation close to the sea? Will they be provided shore space to moor their boats? Or will they be allowed to continue remaining in one part of Sentosa and be allowed to continue to ply their traditional trade between the outer roads and Singapore?

2.45 p.m.

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, can I have your permission to reply to the Member for Telok Blangah now before the other Members, who have also given notices of the same amendment, begin to speak? The reason is that by answering them one at a time I will not forget all the points that are raised, especially after five or six of them have been on the Floor. And perhaps it may also prevent a repetition by the Members themselves or by me.

The Chairman: Yes, please proceed.

Mr Barker: Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah hit the nail on the head when he said that no one likes to move out from an area in which he has been living in for a very long time. That is the crux of our resettlement problem. However, if Singapore is to develop, there must be resettlement. He complains of the lack of co-ordination between the Resettlement Department, The Housing and Development Board and the Planning Department. I do not think he has been fair to these three departments. They are in one Ministry, and they do co-operate with one another. Perhaps there may have been lack of liaison between one Ministry and another. Let me give the Member an example. . The Ministry of Defence requires some parts of Pulau Brani, and resettlement is necessary. But it is the Ministry of Defence, and not the Ministry of Law and National Development that wants the resettlement to be expedited. The Resettlement Department is then asked to do the resettlement work, a most unpleasant job in any circumstances. However, the Resettlement Department is doing its best to provide as suitable alternative accommodation as is possible; but people, shifting from homes which they have occupied for a long time are, as the Member has pointed out, reluctant to move. Then they become choosy. It is sometimes impossible to provide a Housing Board flat near their homes. For example, in Pulau `Brani or in Sentosa there are no Housing Board fiats. As far as Pulau Brani is concerned, some of the people have been resettled and, as far as I am aware, they are satisfied. Out of 230 families affected by this project of the Ministry of Defence, 214 families have been resettled. About 200 families are housed in one-room flats at Henderson and Redhill and about 30 families in Jurong where they have one-, two- and three-room flats. Moreover, the Marine Police personnel who live in Government quarters in Pulau Brani have vacated their quarters and are now living in Clementi Road houses which have been vacated by the British Forces and reverted to the Bases Economic Conversion Department.

So far as Sentosa is concerned, I would like to point out to the Member that we are only concerned with resettlement, the unpleasant part of the project. What will happen to Sentosa island will have to be decided by the Sentosa Development Corporation, after its incorporation shortly. However, I can assure the Member that nothing will be done until the Resettlement Department has completed a survey of the population on the island. I hope that it is possible for part of the population to find employment on the island.

As far as the Urban Renewal Department is concerned, it is merely involved in the physical planning for the development of the island into a tourist complex. It is not involved in policy decisions, which are really a matter for the Corporation. I have one suggestion to make to the Member. In order to lighten the effects of resettlement, perhaps the Member could make representations to the Corporation that one or two villages in Sentosa be preserved and renovated as a tourist attraction. I believe quite a few people living in Sentosa collect and sell sea shells which many a tourist buys. Sentosa is quite a big island, and I am sure one or two villages can be preserved for this purpose. And for the information of the Member, he should make his representation to the right quarters, which is not the Ministry of National Development.

Again the Member complains of the long waiting period for public housing and that we seldom offer immediate alternative housing whenever resettlement problems arise. We do our best with what is available. Hence, some of the Member's constituents were offered flats in Jurong and some in Henderson. Some were offered flats in Redhill, which are, in fact, closer to his constituency. The demand for flats, whether for rental or purchase, far exceeds the supply. Moreover, a few of these flats are used to resettle people who are affected by Government's urban renewal projects. The Housing Board finds it difficult to satisfy everybody's demands. If the Member is interested, I will read to him the latest figures. As at 29th February this year, there were 21,687 families registered to rent Housing Board flats. At the same date there were 36.906 families registered to purchase flats, making in all a figure reaching nearly 60,000 registrants. The Housing Board built a little more than 16,000 units last year. It will build more this year. However, within the next few years, the maximum number which the Board can build, without raising the cost price of each flat, is in the region of 20,000 units. If we start building today with a backlog of 60,000 units -we can only build about 20,000 units a year - and every day of every month more and more fresh applications for rental or for purchase of flats are made to the Board, and with more and more Government development projects taking place, resulting in more and more people being resettled, I think it is a little unfair to complain that there is a lack of co-ordination between the Housing Board, the Resettlement Department and the Planning Department. It is just a question of supply and demand. These departments are doing their best.

However, to come back to the Member's first point, no one likes to shift, and that is the crux of the problem. We try to do our best for them, but it is difficult to satisfy anyone who has to shift from a home which he has occupied probably for generations.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok (Delta): Mr Speaker. Sir, it is well known that in recent years it has become the policy of the Housing and Development Board to encourage our citizens to purchase Housing Board flats. However, it seems to me that in some cases this encouragement has been over-enthusiastic. It has come to my attention that flat dwellers, who have applied for a transfer to bigger flats, as well as new applicants for flats have been told that they should apply for purchase rather than for rental of the new flats as this would shorten the period of waiting. This is not true, and everyone knows that flats are allocated on a first come first served basis. The waiting list of intending purchasers is, in fact, no shorter than that of those who intend to rent, as has just been pointed out by the Minister. Will the Minister, therefore, please instruct his staff not to be so aggressive in encouraging the purchase of flats. Many people who simply cannot afford to purchase flats feel that they are being bullied by this new tactic. Furthermore, I hope the Housing and Development Board will continue to let out 2-room or 3-room flats to poor but big families, because they just cannot afford to buy them.

Sir, in view of the increasing population in Housing Board estates and the addition of several electoral divisions, will the Minister consider setting up new Housing Board Area Offices so as to lighten the burden of the present offices, and so make them more easily accessible to the public?

Sir, many Housing Board tenants have lodged complaints against their noisy neighbours, but it seems to me that they are to no avail. Some tenants have even abused the use of the common corridors to the annoyance and irritation of other tenants. I wonder if the Minister will consider introducing legislation to empower the Area Officers to first warn the recalcitrants of the noise and trouble they make by ticketing them, and failing that, to penalise them by terminating their tenancy.

Recently, a housewife in my area was robbed and stabbed inside a Housing Board lift. Not long ago a tragedy of a different nature also occurred in a Housing Board lift, but this took place in another area. If we have enough hourly-rated lift operators from the various Housing Board Area Offices to check on the safety and security of lift-users at certain hours and in certain crime prone areas, such as mine, then we can prevent similar tragedies from occurring in Housing Board estates in the future. I think the sheer presence of an official from the Housing Board Area Office will contribute to the sense of safety and security of the lone lift-user.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Housing and Development Board officials have adopted aggressive tactics, I would agree with the Member that it is highly regrettable, and that such tactics should be stopped. However, I find it difficult to understand why a Housing Board officer should use aggressive tactics to force someone to change his application from a transfer to a purchase. Perhaps there has been some misunderstanding. With the shortage of flats, it is difficult to get a transfer and it is probably for that reason that the Housing Board officer may have advised the applicant to purchase a flat rather than to apply for a transfer. A transfer means that he is already occupying a flat but wants to move to another flat. There are so many others who do not have flats.

3.00 p.m.

The Member wants me to assure him that the Housing Board will continue to rent or let out flats. I gave this assurance in this House in answer to a Question by the Member for Katong. I said that the Housing Board will continue to let out 20 per cent of the fiats it builds and not to sell every flat.

As for lifts, the Housing Board has more than 1,000 lifts in the various Housing Board estates. If we are to have lift attendants, we will need about 3,000 persons to operate 1,000 lifts on a two-or three-shift basis, and it will cost some $5 million per year. I am sure the Member will agree that this is rather prohibitive. As for security in the lifts, the Police are responsible, but I am not putting the blame on the Minister for Home Affairs. It is quite impractical to expect the authorities to station security guards or policemen at every block of flats when there are more than 1,500 blocks of flats. At present, about a little more than one-third of our population live in Housing Board estates, and the number of residents in each block ranges from several hundreds to several thousands. Perhaps the residents themselves can get together and keep a look-out so that criminal activities can be stopped and anti-social elements caught. If the residents co-operate by reporting the activities of these criminals, I am sure the crime rate in our housing estates will be substantially reduced.

As for noise, we can pass laws but I am not in favour of passing more and more laws to force people to do or not to do this and that. I would rather persuade, and surely residents of Housing Board flats can get together and collectively reduce the noise made by children, radios, television, motor-cars and motor-cycles. The Board is doing its best to request residents to be considerate to one another, and complaints of noise nuisance have been dealt with. But the final answer to the problem really lies in the hands of the residents of the flats themselves.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has not touched on one of the points I raised, i.e., whether he is going to increase the number of Area Offices, in view of the additional seven electoral divisions.

Mr Barker: The number of electoral divisions has been increased. That is a good reason for increasing the number of Members in this House, but surely not Housing Board estate offices. But perhaps the Member meant that, with more and more Housing Board estates coming up, then more and more Housing Board offices are needed. I can assure the Member that the number will be increased. But it must correspond with the increasing number of people living in Housing Board flats.

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise certain matters connected with the urban renewal project in my constituency. I think the Minister for Law and National Development is aware that about 150 premises in my constituency are on temporary occupation licences. Quit notices have been issued to chief tenants and subtenants alike after the acquisition of these premises, and these tenants have been been told to apply for Housing and Development Board flats. Some applied and got it, but some did not get it. Those who were allocated flats have moved out, and those who were not, continued to stay in. Among those who were given Housing Board flats were chief tenants. When the chief tenants moved into the flats, the subtenants will have to take over the responsibility of the premises in the sense that they have to pay the temporary occupation licence fees plus water and light charges, which were previously paid by the chief tenants. Although the subtenants do not mind paying the water and light charges, they are prohibited from subletting those vacant rooms after acquisition, because these are not premises or flats built by the Housing Board, but premises previously owned by private individuals. Sir, the point is that these people are mostly wage-earners in the low income group. It is impossible for them to bear any additional financial burden unless they are allowed to sublet the vacant rooms. Before the acquisition of these premises by the Government, the sub-tenants paid only $10 to $15 a month as rental, including water and light charges. But now they have to pay very much more.

Sir, there is another complication after acquisition, and that is the condition of these premises is far from satisfactory for many of the premises are 50 to 60 years old and are in need of major repairs. But the occupiers are placed in a dilemma because they are wondering whether it is worth their while to repair. They are afraid that their money spent on repairs will be wasted if they were asked to quit shortly after the repairs were done. And this is possible since the Government has not been able to inform them as to when the urban renewal project will take place. In this connection, Sir, I would therefore like to ask the Minister for Law and National Development whether he will be able to inform them as to when the urban renewal project is likely to commence, so that the occupiers will be able to decide whether or not to carry out those necessary repairs to the old houses. Secondly, will the Minister be prepared to waive those regulations which prohibit the subletting of the vacant rooms? If so, this will greatly relieve the financial burden of the occupiers.

Mr Barker: Sir, I am afraid I cannot give the Member either the assurance he desires or the exact date when the Urban Renewal Department will commence work in the areas about which he is complaining. The delay in the implementation of the scheme has been due to clearance problems. Once the place is cleared, construction begins. But I do not know when they will shift. We are not blaming them entirely because they will not shift until the Housing Board provides them with alternative accommodation, which at the moment is not sufficient. I believe the areas referred to by the Member for Bras Basah fall under the Theng Hai and Holloway redevelopment schemes. To-date, only about 15 per cent of the resettlement cases have been cleared, and it is true that in some cases only subtenants are left in the premises after the chief tenants have moved out.

Sir, I am afraid it is not the practice of the Land Office to allow such State properties leased on temporary occupation licences to be repaired, as these repairs are usually done by the Public Works Department. Further, it would be undesirable to allow tenants to do the repairs themselves and at their own expense, as this could lead to extensive renovations, alterations and additions which would tend to prolong the occupation once the tenants have spent large sums of money on repairs. It is also not the practice to allow such houses to be sublet by the chief tenants as this would increase clearance commitments when the area is eventually ready for development. In fact, it is a condition of the temporary occupation licence that there should be no subletting.

As for reductions in rent, the Member can make his representations. I believe we have acceded to some of his representations in the past.

Mr Seah Mui Kok (Bukit Ho Swee): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister for Law and National Development has said earlier that more than 21.000 persons have registered to rent Housing and Development Board flats, and another 31,000 persons have registered to purchase these flats. I am sorry to say that they will have to wait for quite a long time, perhaps another one or two years before they can rent or purchase Housing Board flats.

Sir, in view of the present long waiting list of Housing Board flats for rent and purchase, I would like to ask the Minister for Law and National Development whether he will limit the construction of multi-storey office and shopping complexes so that more construction workers and building materials could be channelled to expedite the construction of more Housing Board flats. This, I believe, will lessen the long waiting time and shortening the waiting list. At the moment, there is no acute shortage of office or shopping space.

3.15 p.m.

Therefore, the construction of multi-storey office buildings and shopping complexes should be restricted, so that the construction of Housing and Development Board flats could be increased from 20,000 to 25,000 flats each year. Sir, the construction of multi-storey office buildings and shopping complexes is purely for profit only, but the construction of Housing and Development Board multi-storey flats is a social development for the workers, especially those in the lower and middle income groups. They cannot afford to purchase houses built by the private sector because their prices are fantastic, ranging from $38,000 to $85,000 per unit.

An hon. Member: More than that!

Mr Barker: But do not blame me for that. The question of whether there is at present an over-building of shopping and office complexes is a controversial one, as there are many factors affecting supply and demand. The Ministry of National Development is keeping a close watch on the capacity of the building industry. Because of the shortage of labour, and the increased cost of building materials - there are shortages of cement or steel at various periods - the Government has suspended the fourth and fifth sales of urban renewal sites which were, in fact, scheduled for 1970 and 1971 respectively. For the same reason, the Government has also withdrawn the concessions for property tax and development charges, which were previously granted to certain prestige projects in the Central and other designated areas. But the building of residential flats and houses is being actively encouraged. In this respect, `the Government still grants exemption to developers of residential flats from paying development charges if the density of such residential development exceeds the maximum density allowed under the Master Plan. What else can we do? The Government is also accelerating the construction of Housing and Development Board flats under the Five-year Building Programme for 1971-75. If owners of land, who no longer get concessions for property tax and development charges, still desire to erect offices and shopping complexes, who are we to tell them that what they are doing is wrong. The risk is theirs. It is not for us to stop them in this island of free enterprise! We can either encourage or discourage, but we cannot stop them.

Mr Low Guan Onn (River Valley): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Housing and Development Board, under the charge of the Minister for National Development, has done a wonderful job, and our Republic has earned a world-wide reputation for providing housing for the lower income group, both for rent and for sale. However, because of the great demand for these houses, the Board has not been able to build enough to cope with the demand. There is one section of the community, the middle income group, which has not been catered for, and they have to turn to the private developers for their housing needs.

Sir, my constituency has many private housing estates, consisting mainly of high-rise flats. They are either for sale or for rent. The developers are only concerned with the collection of rentals or payment of instalments from owners who have bought these houses, and pay no regard to their obligation for maintenance. The compounds are in such a bad state of repair and the gutters are leaking. Generally, there is litter and filth both in and around the compounds. Although there are agreements entered into between the tenants and the developers that the maintenance of these flats is the responsibility of the developers, such undertaking is not observed. As a matter of fact, some of these blocks of flats have been occupied for more than five years now, and have not been issued with any certificate of fitness by the Ministry. Will the Minister for Law and National Development and the Minister for Health look into these complaints of the tenants and enforce a law to protect the interests of the poor flat owners who are mostly from the middle income group and who are at the mercy of these developers? Sir, I have some pictures here showing the state of these flats for the Minister to see.

[Photographs handed in to the Clerk for Mr Barker.]

Mr Barker: Sir, my immediate answer to the Member for River Valley is: it is best for him and his constituents who are affected to seek legal advice. If there are agreements entered into between landlord and tenant or between landlord and purchaser, and there are breaches of these agreements under which perhaps the developer or the vendor agreed to maintain not only the building hut also the land on which the building stands, then legal action can be taken. The Government is aware of these problems and is, in fact, even thinking of introducing legislation to help out. But until then, the tenants or occupants should enforce their legal remedies, or alternatively clean up the premises themselves. If everyone in a block of fiats only sleeps there and does not help to keep the place clean, it finally ends up in a state as shown in those pictures.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap Al-Haj (Geylang Serai): (In Malay): Sir, although the facilities in Housing Board flats are good, they can still be improved further. For example, to bring down a coffin. I believe that those who stay in the lower storeys face no such problem, but there will be difficulties for those staying in the upper storeys, even though there are staircases and lifts. This is because the dimensions of the lift are not big enough to accommodate a coffin.

I would like to state in this House that I have received complaints from certain members of the public that there was an instance when a bereaved family had great difficulty in bringing down a coffin from an upper storey flat. The' undertakers had to use a rope to slowly lower the coffin over the verandah, but before it reached the ground the rope snapped and it fell down. This is a very unfortunate case. I hope the Housing and Development Board can provide bigger lifts so that such unhappy incidents will not recur.

Mr Barker: The matter referred to by the Member will certainly be given consideration. But this is one of the many problems that crop up when people begin to live in high-rise flats. Perhaps the lifts can be made larger or, if not larger, at least longer, provided the costs are not prohibitive.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

In the absence of Mr Ng Kah Ting, the following amendment standing in his name was not proceeded with -

(2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1101 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1061.

The sum of $482,370 for Head 1101 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1104 -

The following amendment stood in the names of Messrs Hwang Soo un, Ho Kah Leong, Sim Boon Woo and P. Govindaswamy -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1104 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Chairman: Mr Hwang.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): I am not moving. Sir.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1104 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1O11.

Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to comment on the anomaly which has arisen out of the acquisition of land by the Land Office. The Land Office is the Government agency which is responsible, among other things, for the acquisition of land for development purposes. Every year the Land Office acquires considerable areas of land. Generally speaking, there should be no problem with the process of acquisition if reasonable compensation is paid to those who deserve it. But what is the actual position, Sir? The Land Office, to save itself from any trouble, normally adopts a perfunctory manner by paying compensation to the landlords instead of taking the trouble to count the number of families involved, the buildings, the improvements, and the number of fruit trees affected by the acquisition. It is at this point that problems crop up.

As you know, Sir, it is quite normal to find more than one family living on any one piece of land. Very often the landlord sublets the land to others such as families who live on farming. The farmers then build up their farms and homes and planted fruit trees on the land, and after many years of hardwork and toil they begin to enjoy the fruits of their land labour.

3.30 p.m.

But when the land is acquired by Government, it is only the landlord who gets the compensation. The tenants, in many cases the poor farmers, do not get a single cent as compensation. This creates a lot of problems. Without being compensated, how do you expect them to move out? How do you expect them to resettle elsewhere to rebuild their farms?

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Land Office officials for the sake of their own convenience have caused considerable trouble to others. I have received a number of complaints of this nature during my "Meet the people" sessions. These people complained that Resettlement Officers visited them every day in an attempt to force them out of their homes. But without getting a single cent as compensation, and without any savings of their own, how do you expect them to move out? Do you want them to pull their own houses down and live in the open air? Sir, I do not understand why officials of the Land Office cannot take the trouble to make a detailed investigation to find out who the owners of the properties are, and who are the tenants living on the piece of land to be acquired, before they make payment of compensation. They must ensure that compensation is paid to those who deserve it, in order to eliminate all the problems that may arise out of acquisition, which may cause delay to the Government's development programme. In this way, Sir, the people who get the compensation will be resettled without difficulty. Otherwise, the tenants will continue to stay on the land because they have no money to move out.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, when private land is compulsorily acquired under the provisions of the Land Acquisition Act, a search is first made in the Registry of Land Titles and Deeds to ascertain the names and addresses of the registered owners. It is the owners of the land who are paid compensation under the Land Acquisition Act, because they own the land. But perhaps there is some confusion here between compensation for the land and compensation for buildings, perhaps temporary buildings, or improvements to the land, and fruit trees. In addition to the notices which are not only gazetted but also served on the owners of land, there are acquisition notices posted on the land itself, inviting persons who claim compensation to make their claims to the Collector of Land Revenue. Under the Land Acquisition Act, a claimant for compensation must satisfy the Collector of Land Revenue that he is the person interested within the meaning of the Act. If he is merely a tenant, farmer, or squatter, then he is not entitled to compensation as of right, but he is paid ex-gratia compensation for improvements made by him to the land, subject to his proving that the improvements were effected by him. But the situation is different where the landowner undertakes to clear and compensate the tenant, farmer, or squatter. In such a case, it is he who pays compensation to his tenants for all their improvements on the land. It is then a matter for the tenant, farmer or squatter to settle his claim with the landowner.

I can assure the Member that we are as interested as he is in effecting smooth eviction and resettlement. It is no use our paying compensation to the landowner only to find the land still occupied by squatters and we do not get vacant possession. For then, nothing can be done. Of course, there are cases where the moment a notice under section 3 or under section 5 of the Land Acquisition Act is gazetted, people quickly move into the area in order to claim compensation from the Government. But these are only a few cases. But if many of the Member's constituents have made these complaints to him at his "Meet the People" sessions, he should send them with their complaints to the Land Office.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to draw the attention of the Minister concerned to the sad plight of the residents living at Koh Sek Lim Road, which is in my constituency. Most of them were resettled years ago under development projects for the Paya Lebar Airport. These people were affected by the construction of the airport. Small plots of land used for dwelling purposes, as well as stove-making and agriculture, were allocated to them at Koh Sek Lim Village. Sir, Members of the House, especially those representing rural areas, will agree with me that stove-making and vegetable farming are not profitable propositions. The people engaged in these occupations have to live like everyone of us here. Therefore, they turn to cottage-industries, such as iron foundry, furniture-making, rattan-cleaning apart from farming, in order to supplement their living. These people have been, issued with notices from the Commissioner of Lands to stop such activities, because they are said to have contravened the terms and conditions of their leases. Sir, our Government has been, both practical and realistic, and I hope it will always be. But since these poor people cannot supplement their living, by stove-making or farming, I would urge the Minister to consider making, amendments to the present conditions of the lease so as to enable such people, who are unable to earn a sufficient living by farming or stove-making, to return to their farms, as I mentioned, earlier, to make their living.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, those; persons affected by the acquisition of land in 1955 for the development of Paya Lebar Airport were resettled in the Bedok resettlement area, as pointed out, by the Member for Changi. The allocation of land on this area was done on a, very special basis in that resettlers were not given Temporary Occupation, Licences but 60-year leases, with effect from 1st January, 1955. These leases; carry no premiums but special covenants restricting the uses of the land. One of' these covenants require the lessees to. farm, cultivate, manure and manage the whole of the land they leased in good and husband-like manner, and to use the buildings erected thereon for dwelling purposes only. Recently, it has come to light that, in a number of cases, the law has been flouted and the lessees have breached this covenant by using the land not for agricultural or dwelling purposes, but for purposes foreign to the lease, such as rattan-splitting, metal works, furniture manufacture, sundry shop, etc. Hence they run to their' Member of Parliament for help. Notices were, therefore, served by the Land' Office on these lessees for breach of the covenant. However, in view of the number of appeals received and the appeal from the Member for Changi, a survey of the whole of the Bedok resettlement area is now being carried out by the Land Office to ascertain the extent of and reasons for the breaches, and other related information. The Primary Production Department is also being asked to advise on the agricultural potentials of the area. The Member will be glad to know that consideration as to whether this restrictive covenant in the lease should be removed to enable the lessees to use the land for purposes other than agriculture can only be given after the survey is completed and the report, incorporating the views of the Primary Production Department, is made available. But consideration will be given, and I hope the Member is satisfied.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, we have a very good explanation from the Minister regarding land and housing problem. But I think it is proper for me to explain the position to the Minister. Where a building has been leased on a Temporary Occupation Licence, the occupants should be given permission to carry out minor renovations to the building. I say this because there are some buildings which are going to collapse, and unless renovation is carried out they would have to go to the Housing Board for flats. As it stands, the Land Office in most cases has refused to grant permission for any form of renovation or extension to be carried out to these buildings.

Sir, there are certain areas in Singapore where the land belongs to the Government. Since this land is not used for any particular purpose, can we not allow some form of cultivation to be carried out, such as farming, provided the occupants do not put up any structures on the land, and provided they return the land to Government without compensation? This will help Singapore's production of vegetables, thereby reducing our dependence on our neighbours for our vegetable supplies.

Another point which I would like to bring up is this: when a building catches fire but is only slightly burned, why should the Land Office insist that the occupants should move out? Why are the residents not allowed to continue to occupy the building after repairs and renovations have been carried out? There are many buildings in such a state. They are still in very good condition in spite of the slight damage by fire, but they are all locked up to prevent people from going in. The occupants, therefore, have no place to go to, but to the Housing Board. As a result, the demand for' Housing Board flats is increasing. What we can do to help is to allow them to carry out repairs and to let them continue to occupy the premises for some time.

3.45 p.m.

There is a building at No. 13 Choon; Guan Street, which is in my constituency. I would like to ask the Minister to go' and see it. The building is in good condition, but nobody is occupying it. It, was only slightly burnt. In fact, only the groundfloor was slightly burnt. Yet the door remained closed and nobody is occupying the building. It is a three-storey building and many families can, stay in it. However, the Government's urban renewal policy is such that nobody can occupy it. We must relax this policy. Under the urban renewal schemes, many residents in old buildings have been asked to move at short notice. I am referring to the private developers. When a private developer wishes to develop a piece of land on which there are some old buildings, he may offer $1,000 or $2,000 to each tenant and ask them to quit; their houses. These are poor people' and they think that $1,000 is a lot of' money. They also think that they can straightaway get a Housing Board flat by making an immediate application to the Housing Board. However, having received the $1,000 they find that they cannot get a flat immediately. And these tenants may get an advice from their lawyer not to quit unless they get more money for it. The Land Office must first see to it that people who are living in old houses are given alternative accommodation before granting approval to the developer to demolish the houses and to develop the land. Only then will the people say that it is a very fair deal. When approval is given to a developer to develop an area, the Housing Board should at the same time build more flats for the people who are to be evicted. We have to consider all these factors. Therefore, it would be a wise move to introduce legislation to the effect that when a private developer wishes to develop an area he should provide alternative accommodation to those who are to be evicted and not to offer mere monetary compensation. I hope the Minister will consider this matter and take any necessary action and to allow tenants temporary occupation of the premises.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I reply to the last point raised by the Member on the question of alternative accommodation for tenants occupying houses affected by private development? I think the Member is aware that the whole island of Singapore is governed by the Control of Rent Act which has been in operation since the last war. In short, Sir, this Act protects tenants of controlled premises, meaning houses, `buildings or offices built or completed on or before the 7th September, 1947. If you live in a controlled premises, your landlord cannot evict you. He can only succeed in evicting you if he pays money. And if you, as a tenant or an occupant, accept such compensation from your landlord and move out, then you cannot claim priority for a Housing Board flat. In the same way in the Golden Shoe area where the Controlled Premises (Special Provisions) Act apply, the landlord can evict the tenants provided he pays compensation as fixed by the Tenants' Compensation Board. If they are paid compensation, they should find alternative accommodation for themselves; they have no choice. However, for the rest of the tenants in Singapore, they have a choice. There is no need for them to move out. But if they accept compensation and move out, then they should not ask the Housing Board for priority to flats. They can apply for flats but they will be put on the points system. They do not deserve priority since they have been paid compensation.

As for houses affected by fire, it is not Government's policy to acquire every piece of land on which the buildings are affected by fire, especially when only the fringe has been affected. I am not conversant with the particular case pointed out by the Member, but if he could give me more particulars I shall look into it.

As regards the other point, I do not know whether it is a question of acquisition or of Government, having acquired land and evicting the occupants, doing nothing to re-develop it. Perhaps it is because plans for urban renewal or development in that area have been delayed.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I am not complaining about priority consideration for Housing Board flats for these people. I am only pointing out the treatment that they get.

These tenants do not know about the difficulties of alternative accommodation. When they are offered money, they do not hesitate to give up their tenancy. Money is a very dangerous commodity. But later, when they cannot get alternative accommodation, they regretted. That is the trouble. Therefore, my point is that we must prevent this from happening again, so that these people will not suffer. If I may repeat, I am not saying that priority should be given to these people when they apply for Housing Board flats. I only want the Minister to listen to their complaints.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member has made the point that money is the root of all evil. But surely it is up to Members of this House to advise their constituents. Not everyone here is a lawyer, but as far as housing and the Control of Rent Act are concerned, this is what I advise my constituents - and Members here should also advise their constituents - do not quit unless they are satisfied with the amount of compensation. Of course, I am referring to controlled premises. However, if an occupant has accepted compensation, he should not insist on priority for Housing Board accommodation.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, before approving any plans for development, the authorities concerned should ask the developer how many tenants or squatters there are in the area to be developed, and how many houses are to be demolished. They should also ask whether these people require alternative accommodation or whether they prefer compensation. Only after all this information has been supplied should the plan be approved. These innocent people do not know the law. That is why we must have a scheme to protect these poor people. Private developers are putting up many multi-storey buildings. They make a lot of money, but the poor tenants suffer because they cannot get alternative accommodation.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I regret that there is no such law at the moment. We cannot force developers to provide accommodation for their ex-tenants. However, the tenants themselves can insist on this provision by refusing to shift, and agreeing to do so only on condition that they will be provided with accommodation in the new building. There have been a few cases like this. The tenants refused to shift until they were sure that the plans could be approved by the Planning Department and until they knew where their new alternative premises would be -the exact dimensions and location of the building offered by the landlord. This can be done by private agreement. To provide for this arrangement in the law would mean an amendment to the Control of Rent Act or the Controlled Premises (Special Provisions) Act. At the time when the Controlled Premises (Special Provisions) Bill was being studied by a Select Committee, the Member should have suggested these amendments before it was passed in this House.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister. My intention was to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that officials in the Land Office were not performing their duties properly. If this state of affairs continues, then our resettlement schemes will be hampered. If no compensation is paid to the squatters or the tenants, they will not be able to move out and to rebuild their farms elsewhere.

The Minister also said just now that notices were put up on the land itself to request any claimants to come forward. As far as I know, these notices are usually written in English and in a legal language. The notices are, in fact, beyond the comprehension of the man in the street, let alone the farmers. I wonder whether any of them can understand notices written in English and couched in legal language. It is only the landlord who understands these notices, and probably he will be the only person to make a claim. He will, therefore, say that all these lands and improvements thereon belong to him and him alone. Consequently, the officials in the Land Office will pay everything to the landlord at the expense of the tenants. I have received many complaints of this nature, and I have referred them to the Land Office. The answer I invariably received is that all payments of compensation have been made to the landlord and nothing more can be done. Will the Minister look after the interests of the tenants who are not paid any compensation? Can we introduce legislation to ensure that part of the compensation received by the landlord should be paid to the tenants?

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid we cannot legislate as suggested by the Member, as it will be against the principles of property law. All I can advise him is to file his complaints with the Land Office. As for notices in the English language, I am sure the occupants of the land are not so illiterate or foolish as not to find out what the notice is all about. The Member can translate it for them. I am sure he can, if his other constituents cannot. However, assuming that they do not get compensation to which they are entitled as of right, or at least be paid an ex-gratia payment, then my advice to them is that they should not move out until the Land Office pays them. It is as simple as that. There is no need for legislation.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think there can be any use in continuing the debate on this line. It will not lead to any conclusion, because the Minister does not appear to be very sincere in wanting to help these poor tenants who are affected by land acquisition. However, in view of the limited time, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,130,870 for Head 1104 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

4.00 p.m.

Head 1107 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1107 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101*.(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs J. F. Conceicao, Ho Kah Leong and P. Govindaswamy.)

Sir, the total allocation for expenditure on the National Development Division under Head 1107 amounts to $14.59 million for this financial year, which is slightly less than the amount allocated for 1971-72 which was $15 million.

The Primary Production Department is responsible for the planning and increasing the production of farm produce in Singapore. With the encouragement of the Primary Production Department, there has been considerable increase in farm produce in Singapore. The Department has also given various kinds of assistance to the farmers, which includes methods of improved production, inoculation of poultry and farm animals and technical or scientific aid to the farmers. The Department has also introduced better breeds of poultry and pigs to the farmers. As a result of such assistance, there is a considerable increase in the production of eggs, meat and pork, and there is also a surplus for export.

Sir, because of this bumper harvest, poultry farmers and pig rearers have excess produce in hand. As a result, the' prices of their produce drop considerably. This affects the pig rearers adversely. I have tried to analyse the causes for the drop in the price of pigs and pork. 1 have exchanged views with my constituents and, according to them, the drop in the price of pigs and pork can be attributed to two factors. The first is because of the lack of planning in production. A year before last, the price of pigs reached a peak of more than $100 per picul. This resulted in increased production and a rise in income for the pig rearers. According to the estimates, their production increased by more than 100 per cent. But this high price has resulted in a surplus which, in turn, has caused a drop in price. The second factor is that the Monday-off for butchers has caused a drop in pork consumption.

Sir, if there is any good harvest, it should be taken as a good sign. But because of an unlimited and unplanned increase in production and because of the lack of marketing facilities, the prices of farm produce have dropped. This is a very hard economic blow to the farmers.

In order to look after the interests of these farmers, the best way is to set up a farmers association or a co-operative society. We have to make an estimate of the number of pigs required for consumption and for export in order to make sure that the forces of supply and demand are balanced. In order to make this plan succeed, all the farmers must co-operate. They must understand that this is for the common good and mutual benefit of all farmers. The proposed farmers co-operative society must ensure that middlemen will not be able to' continue to exploit the farmers or to manipulate the prices of farm produce. In this way, the prices of farm produce could be stabilised.

The Primary Production Department has spent more than $40 million of public funds for the main purpose of helping our farmers to develop their agriculture and farming activities and to look after the interest of the farmers. The Department has experts as well as organisers in this field. They know their jobs and surely they can help the farmers to organise a co-operative society. Furthermore, the Minister for Social Affairs has said in this House yesterday that the Registry of Co-operative Societies would be prepared to help farmers organise co-operatives.

Sir, it cannot be denied that everything is difficult at the beginning, but we must also believe in the proverb that man can move mountains. So with the Government's efforts and organisational help, coupled with the co-operation of the farmers, we will be able to overcome whatever difficulties there may be at the beginning. We are a dynamic Government. We have solved the serious problem of unemployment. We have succeeded in our industrialisation programme. We have also solved the acute shortage of housing. Similarly, Sit, with this dynamism, the Primary Production Department can give their attention to this problem and solve the difficulties. The farmers, the Department, and the animal feeds producers can come together and work out a way to stabilise the prices of pigs and other farm produce. In this way, the welfare of nearly 300,000 farmers will be well looked after.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, the economy of Singapore operates in a free enterprise system and the prices of commodities are regulated by the forces of supply and demand. Prices of farm produce are also dictated by such forces. We have had previous occasions in this House when Members complained that the price of eggs was going up or down, and I have explained the reasons in this House several times. Because of their perishable nature, an over-supply of farm produce will result in a fall in prices greater than in other commodities; the opposite is also true. The fall in prices of primary produce has frequently been due to the farmers themselves over-producing when prices are good. This results in a price drop when the market is over-supplied.

As for pigs, the prices for the last three or four years were relatively high, not less than $90 per picul, but sometimes the price reached a level of about $130 per picul. This was the time when the producers of pigs really had it good. At the beginning of this year, prices of pigs, however, went down and the price now is about $70 per picul, mainly due to over-production. Singapore produces over 1,100,000 pigs per year.

The Primary Production Department has been supplying the farmers with up to-date market information. It is, unwise for Government to intervene in market prices or the market system, as this may have serious and far-reaching repercussions. If the price is high and we impose controls, pigs will be sold in the black market. If the prices are low and we fix the prices higher, no one will buy. Of course, the position is not as simple as that, but I am only putting it simply.

As for the suggestion of a co-operative society, this is, in fact, under the portfolio of the Minister for Social Affairs. The Primary Production Department, of course, will be glad to provide any advice and assistance to farmers who wish to set up a co-operative society. But for any co-operative society to survive, it must rely mainly on self-help and be strongly supported by the farmers themselves. The farmers must also be made fully aware of the aims, objectives and benefits of such a society. A word of warning: the society must have a strong management. Many such other societies have not succeeded because of mismanagement and subsequent lack of support from their members.

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Primary Production Department is in charge of several primary production projects, and these have resulted in the gathering of much useful and interesting knowledge and expertise. Examples of such projects are fish rearing, including edible species as well as tropical aquarium fish, mushroom cultivation and hydroponics. I would like to suggest that this knowledge and expertise be made available to interested members of the general public through appropriate courses. `They could be organised either by the Primary Production Department itself or in collaboration, possibly, with the Adult Education Board. I am sure the Minister will agree that, for example, orchid cultivation and, indeed more recently, the, breeding of aquarium fish have become quite significant commercial activities. In the case of orchid cultivation, quite an important factor in its development has been the interest of private enthusiasts.

4.15 p.m.

I would not be at all surprised that in the case of tropical fish also, recreational activity has turned out in the end to be quite a profitable activity for many people. It may be possible that with more people being interested in mushroom cultivation and hydroponics as recreational activities, such enthusiasm may also turn out to be profitable activities; even, in the monetary sense, for the individual; and useful for the national economy in a humble yet significant way.

Mr Barker: Sir, the knowledge and information acquired from research experiments and investigations conducted by the Primary Production Department in various farming topics are being effectively disseminated to the farming community and also to the public at large. The department has over the years developed a network of ten extension centres in the more important farming areas. These centres are staffed by qualified officers who visit the farms regularly and give on-the-spot advice to farmers. They also organise training programmes, talks and demonstrations. Information is also spread widely through the department's monthly news bulletin, pamphlets, and by way of film shows and rural news broadcasts. The Pig and Poultry Research and Training Institute and the Fresh Water Fisheries Laboratory at Sembawang organise within the station talks and demonstrations on various aspects of pig and poultry rearing and fish cultivation. The research findings on mushroom cultivation have been disseminated to some 700 people from all walks of life through a series of short courses conducted between March 1970 and October 1971. On hydroponics, the findings so far indicate that this system of cultivation can be a commercial proposition for certain crops, but results have not been so satisfactory for other crops. Further research is, in fact, very necessary to improve and perfect the system. The Farm School at Sembawang offers one-year residential training courses for farm youths, who are given general training on farming techniques and specialised training in animal husbandry, horticulture and fresh water fisheries.

If the Member has any concrete suggestion, perhaps he could make his representations direct to the Director of Primary Production, who will certainly co-operate with the Adult Education Department to further publicise the results of research and findings made in the Primary Production Department.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have had more than one occasion in this House to speak on the treatment of farmers by the Government, and that is, the treatment is inadequate. After hearing the Minister's reply to the Member for Sembawang, we can see that there is evidence for this inadequate treatment. For example, the Minister mentioned that the current price of pigs is $70 per picul. Let me tell him that the current price is less than $50 per picul. This goes to show that either the officials in the Primary Production Department are sleeping, or some of them are deliberately deceiving the Minister. Because of the fluctuations in prices, farmers are generally adversely affected, but the Minister keeps on repeating the old theme that prices are determined by supply and demand and that he cannot do anything about it. I am sure he can find ways and means of assisting these farmers. For instance, help them to explore overseas markets. At the moment the Government is merely providing certain technical assistance through the Primary Production Department. But that is not sufficient. As the Member for Sembawang has pointed out, the Primary Production Department has, in fact, provided quite a lot of technical assistance to increase farm production, but what is the consequence of an increase in the farm production? The consequence is an overproduction of farm produce. As a result, the farmers are being exploited by middlemen and prices go down, and farmers stand to lose.

Sir, our Government believes in democratic socialism. I hope the Government is not merely interested in raising the standard of living of the middle and higher classes, but also interested in raising the standard of living of the lower classes, especially the farmers and the fishermen. I have here several question3 to ask the Minister concerned:

(1) I would like to ask the Minister whether the Government is going to allocate certain areas of land for the use of farmers. Although the land area in Singapore is limited, we can see that certain areas are earmarked for industrial development, residential estates, military purposes, etc. Why cannot we do the same thing for the farmers, that is, to earmark certain areas for agricultural purposes? The majority of our farmers in Singapore are occupying land under Temporary Occupation Licences, meaning a licence for temporary occupation only. Therefore, the farmers have no security of tenure, because at any time they may be asked to move out. I would like to ask the Minister, if he has earmarked certain areas for agricultural purposes, whether he can provide a longer tenure for these farmers, for example, granting a 30 years' or 50 years' lease so that farmers can carry out their farming activities in peace.

(2) Is the Minister going to convert the Primary Production Department into a statutory board? As a statutory board, the department can better look after the farmers in various ways. A few days ago we heard the Minister for Communications say that the Telecommunications Department would soon be converted into a statutory board. He said that after conversion the Board would do better in respect of recruitment and implementation and that there would also be a greater degree of flexibility in the management of telecommunication services. I wonder if the Minister for National Development is going to do the same with the Primary Production Department. For instance, the Primary Production Department as a statutory authority can provide information obtained as a result of research, and also provide plans for production and statistics for the farmers. These farmers can benefit from the result of these various forms of financial and technical assistance. Another matter is about the use of chemicals and fertilizers in the farms, If the Primary Production Department can provide technical expertise in respect of these fields, I am sure the farmers will be able to benefit a great deal. I wonder what the Minister has to say about this.

Mr Barker: The Member accuses me of repeating an old theme. What am I expected to do when he himself never raises any new theme? His grouses on farming have been heard in this House for many a year. My answers have never satisfied him, but he realises that the Primary Production Department has done a lot for farmers in Singapore, though, of course, not to the Member's satisfaction. I can assure him that this Government is also for the poor people. If the Member is not satisfied with my answers, it is unfair of him to say that I am not for the poor people. In fact, I begin to be very suspicious of Members who get up in this House and shout that they are for the poor. I think that is the general feeling in this House. To accuse the People's Action Party of not being a socialist party and of not being for the poor is indeed very foolish. If we were not for the poor, we would not be in this job.

As to his first question whether I am allocating certain agricultural areas for farmers, there are already agricultural areas or areas zoned "agriculture" under the Master Plan. The agricultural areas are already there.

To his second question about turning the Primary Production Department into a statutory corporation, the answer is no. The Primary Production Department is not on all fours with the Telecommunications Department.

Some hon. Members: Hear! hear!

Mr Barker: What is good for them may not be good for us. As for plans for production, the next Annual Report of the Primary Production Department will be out very soon. Various facts and figures will be given. A copy of this Report will be sent to the Member with my compliments.

4.30 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has replied to many points about poultry and pigs. But what efforts have been made by the Primary Production Department to introduce poultry and pig rearing in flatted factories? Our precious land in the rural areas is generally used for poultry and pig farming. By centralising their production in flatted factories, production can be increased and exported, thereby bringing the cost of living down. The Singapore housewife has experienced `fluctuations in the price of fish. Most of the fish we consume are imported, and therefore the catch of fish is subject to the weather. It is high time we introduced trawlers for deep-sea fishing. This will not only produce bigger catches, but will also help to bring the price of fish down. Further, deep-sea fishing is less likely to be affected by weather conditions or foreign market control.

Mr Barker: Sir, the proposals for this scheme of pig and poultry rearing in flatted farms on a commercial scale have been under consideration for some time now. A pilot scheme will be introduced in order to study the management and operational problems, disease control, and the design of the buildings. Whilst such a system of farming for pigs and poultry will optimise the use of land, the capital investment is much higher than for the conventional method. The economics have, therefore, to be worked out properly before such a method can be introduced to farmers in general.

As for fish, whilst deep-sea trawling is a laudable idea, it is again not a simple matter. It requires high capital as deep-sea fishing vessels and fishing gear are very expensive. What is also required is a high level of skill. It is also true that, though deep-sea trawlers are independent of weather conditions, they are very dependent on fishing grounds. Not every part of the ocean contains fish, or fish that can be caught without the fishermen themselves getting caught. The Government itself is doing all it can to promote deep-sea fishing. It provides the necessary infrastructure such as ship landing and marketing facilities, training in fishing and research into fishing grounds to encourage the private sector to go into deep-sea fishing.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister mentioned that I have no new theme to speak about. It goes to show that the problem has not been solved. If the problem has been solved, then I would have dwelt on new ideas and opinions. The Minister also mentioned that under the Master Plan for Singapore, there are certain areas which are allocated for agriculture. I would like to ask whether he can inform the House of the areas which have been allocated for agriculture. He has also omitted one of the points I raised. In these zones which have been allocated for agriculture, is he prepared to grant a longer term of lease rather than a Temporary Occupation Licence?

Mr Barker: The answer to the last question is a definite no. As for the areas zoned for agriculture, without a map of Singapore, I cannot point them out. There are areas in Punggol, Jurong, and in Chua Chu Kang. I would be happy to point out the agricultural zones if the Member will visit my office on a convenient date.

I doubt whether my answers have satisfied him, or whether I have left out anything on which he desires further information.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, as the representative `of a rural constituency, I am most interested in the fall in the price of pigs. I am sure the Minister is equally interested. I am not objecting to the Minister's statement that prices of pigs are determined by the supply and demand. But I would like to ask what he is going to do about this problem. When the prices of pigs drop, what is the Primary Production Department going to do? Until now, has the Depart-went done anything to reverse the trend of falling prices?

Mr Barker: The answer is nothing has been done. It is up to the farmers to produce less. When the prices of pigs were high, we have never heard one squeak from the Member. When the prices are low, he asks what is the Department doing about it. It is a question of supply and demand - produce less and the prices will go up, produce more and the prices will go down. They should not run to the Primary Production Department every time something goes wrong, but try `to learn to look after themselves.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not agree with what the Minister has said. If the Government is sincere in helping the farmers, it can do so by looking for overseas markets so that they could export their pigs. The Minister said that in the last two years the prices of pigs were very high. If the Minister is going to help the farmers, then he can try to help them sell their pigs overseas. The Government can help by doing this.

Mr Barker: Sir, there are many ways of exporting and selling pigs. The Primary Production Department has always been behind the farmers. Pigs have been exported to Malaysia, and also to Sabah. From time to time a ban is imposed. In fact, at the moment, there is a ban against the import of pigs into these countries. But there are other avenues. Moreover, when the price is up, the consumers shout. Therefore, I think it is unfair for the Member to come to this House and ask what we are doing when the price is down, or to say that he does not get any satisfactory answers from me. They must learn to control their supply with the demand. When the price of eggs goes up, the farmers are happy, but the consumers are angry. So I have to answer questions in this House about what I am doing to get the price of eggs down. And when the price goes down, someone asks: what are you doing to bring the price of eggs up?

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think we can give the Minister some rest. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (2), Mr Ho Kah Leong. Are you going to repeat the same theme on Fisheries, Mr Ho?

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1107 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1111.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I would like to talk about the problem of fisheries. We talked about agriculture just now, so this is a different problem.

Sir, I remember last year in this House the Minister concerned mentioned that our fishermen could only catch one quarter of our consumption of fish and he thought that it was a shame. Sir, after a period of one year, has the Minister done anything in respect of promotion of fisheries! Up to the present moment, fishing activities in our country are declining. Although we say that we are going to encourage deep-sea fishing, the Primary Production Department is only providing certain technical assistance to some youths. The Department has not thought of ways and means to encourage people to invest in deep-sea fishing or in joint ventures between the State and private enterprise. So deep-sea fishing activities are still in their initial stage because nothing has been done in this respect. Off-shore fishing is also declining because of deep-sea trawlers operating along our coasts, and the Government has not taken adequate steps to prevent the supplies of fish from dwindling further. Hence the decline in our fishing activities.

Sir, firstly, I would like to ask the Minister whether the Government intends to help our fishermen to develop off-shore fishing or coastal fishing. Secondly, is the Government prepared to allocate stretches of land along the coast to accommodate fishermen affected by clearance schemes, so that they may have a place to live and to anchor their fishing boats? Thirdly, has the Government any intention of negotiating with our neighbouring countries to extend our fishing grounds and to sign an agreement with them to enable our fishermen to fish in their territorial waters? I remember that before confrontation, our fishermen could get licences to fish in Indonesian waters. After confrontation, it has ceased. So I would like to know whether the Government can, through ASEAN or some regional organisations, acquire this privilege for our fishermen to fish in their territorial waters. If this can be done, fishermen who have strayed into neighbouring territorial waters, either because of storms or if they are faced with difficulty and are detained by them, will be able to return to Singapore safely and as early as possible. Fourthly, is the Government prepared to co-operate with our neighbouring countries to eliminate pirates from the high seas? I have received many complaints from fishermen that whenever they were accosted by pirates on the high seas, they were robbed of their fishing nets, and sometimes even their motors were taken away and the crew were taken as hostages until they had paid up their ransom.

4.45 p.m.

Fifthly, is the Fisheries Section of the Primary Production Department willing to continue with their training courses to enable our fishermen to acquire some knowledge on deep-sea fishing, for example, the spotting of fish in deep sea, the repair of vessels and other related subjects since our fishermen are not so well informed about modern techniques in deep-sea fishing? I hope the Minister will reply to all these questions.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid I am going to be rather long in my answer. I have got five questions which the Member has taken ten minutes to ask. Anyway, I will do my best to give as much information to the Member as possible.

The total number of licensed fishermen has increased from 1,919 in 1970 to 2,209 in 1971. Of this number, 1,549 fishermen or 73 per cent of them were employed on inboard-powered fishing vessels; 439 fishermen were employed on outboard-powered fishing vessels, and the remaining 230 fishermen were employed on non-powered vessels. It is anticipated that the number of fishermen on inboard-powered vessels will continue to increase with the trend towards off-shore and deep-sea fishing. The number of in-shore fishermen will continue to decrease in view of increasing industrialisation and coastal development.

With regard to fishing vessels, the number of licences in 1971 was 794. There is a slight increase in the number of motorised vessels and a decline in the number of non-powered vessels, in 1971 a total of 15,210 tons of fish were produced or caught by local fishermen. A total of 38,000 tons were imported from West Malaysia, comprising about 80 per cent of the total fish imports. In the same year 1971, a total of 737 local and foreign vessels made use of the fishing port facilities at Jurong, landing a total of 13,716 tons of fish. Together with the fish brought in by lorries from Malaysia, a total of nearly 53,000 tons of fish were auctioned at the Jurong Central Fish Market. With the addition of one fish processing factory during the year, the total number of factories at the port has been increased to `four.

The Marine Fisheries Research Department of the South-east Asian Fisheries Development Centre concluded its second year of activities with the completion of its first training course for seven trainee-scientists from the Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand and Singapore. The research vessel Changi completed seven research and fishing survey cruises totalling 93 days in the South China Sea and the Indian Ocean. The emphasis on these cruises was on trawling and oceanography. A preliminary survey on tuna long-line was also conducted. The reports on these cruises and quarterly reports on research and training activities of the department were circulated to member countries. The staff of the department presented four research papers at the Second Congress of the Singapore National Academy of Science in November 1971.

Now, with regard to the training and education of fishermen, a batch of 21 trainees graduated from the Changi Fisheries Training Centre. This is a joint project of the Singapore Government and the United Nations Development Programme. The trainees graduated in September 1971 after undergoing a one-year course in marine engineering, navigation, and fishing gear technology. March 1971 saw the arrival of the 230 gross ton stern trawler tuna long-line training vessel Jurong to join the 60 gross ton training vessel Kangkar. Another training course commenced recently. A wider field of training is being provided to enable a greater diversity in employment opportunities.

If the Member is interested in aqua culture, an investigation was made on the culture of grouper fish in floating cage-nets in selected coastal areas. They were stocked intensively and fed with trash fish. Experiments to condition them to pelleted feed will be carried out. The preliminary results of the experiments are encouraging, but further investigations are necessary. Experiments were also conducted on the rearing of carp in floating cage-nets in the Seletar Reservoir. Mass production of the giant freshwater prawn was successfully carried out. About 50,000 juvenile prawns were distributed to fishpond operators on an experimental basis so that they can rear the prawns together with the carp. If the Member is interested in ornamental fish, I can elaborate further. However, this is merely to assure him that the Primary Production Department is doing something for fishermen in Singapore.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I appreciate very much the bouquet he has given to the staff of the Primary Production Department. However, he has not replied to my questions.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, one of the Member's questions is whether we intend to help our fishermen. And I have given an answer to his question as to what we are doing to help fishermen. It is not a bouquet, but a whole rigmarole! The Member has asked mc what are we doing to encourage fishermen to go in for deep-sea fishing. I have given him particulars of what is happening at Changi. That is what we are doing. The Member has also asked me what we are going to do about fishing in foreign waters. He should have directed his question to the Minister `for Foreign Affairs, because he deals with affairs outside Singapore. As for our fishermen being captured by pirates, I am afraid there is nothing the Primary Production Department can do about affairs in international waters or in foreign waters. If our fishermen are caught in Singapore waters, then it is up to our Marine Police to catch the pirates, if any. However, some of our fishermen have been caught thousands of miles away from Singapore. There is nothing we can do to stop this. All we can do is to make representations for their release from foreign countries.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, some of my questions may be on matters which are not the responsibility of his Ministry, but anyway he is not prepared to reply to them. There is one matter, however, which is under his jurisdiction. Is the Minister prepared to allocate a stretch of coastal area to fishermen who are evicted? When the fishermen are resettled from their place, they will not be allocated land just because they are not farmers. Now that many coastal areas have been reclaimed for development purposes, they do not have enough moorings for their fishing boats.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, all I can say in answer to a general question is that, unless the Member gives me specific particulars, we will not be able to help. However, I must know where are the areas which they require. There are fishing facilities in Jurong and also at Punggol. Some of the few kelongs opposite the East Coast reclamation have had to be demolished and compensation paid to the fishermen affected. Therefore, to say that we evict fishermen without compensating them is not true and is misleading.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, this is what has happened at Tuas Village in my constituency. It is a traditional fishing village. `There are many fishermen staying there. When their land was taken over for development, they were evicted without being allocated land just because they did not belong to the category of farmers. It may well be that due to the difficulties of interpretation the Minister was unable to get the gist of my questions and, therefore, was unable to give me a satisfactory reply. However, because of the time factor, I do not wish to talk any further. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1107 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1501*.(* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Ch'ng Jit Koon and P. Govindaswamy.)

Sir, I have recently come into contact with taxi drivers in the course of their charity drive campaign. Some of them are my constituents. I have heard grouses from them that they are not allowed to use the public car parks, even if they are prepared to pay the usual fees. I have been told that the existing rules and regulations do not permit taxis to be parked in the public car parks. Sir, I do not quite understand the reason for this objection. There may be occasions when taxi drivers, either owners or hirers, may wish to go shopping on behalf of their wives or children. They may wish to bring their families to the movies. They may wish to park their taxis in some place to go for their meals or to attend to some personal affairs. It is, therefore, illogical and unreasonable to deny them parking facilities at public car parks, not for free but on payment of the usual fees.

5.00 p.m.

It is absurd for the taxi drivers to park their taxis at the taxi-stands and then go about with their families in other taxis or buses to places some distance away from the taxi-stands. Moreover, under the law, taxi drivers are not allowed to leave their taxis unattended in the taxi-stands. Sir, the matter of taxi-parking in public car parks was, in fact, raised by the Member for Sembawang during the debate on the Reorganisation of the Motor Transport Service in September. 1970. With your permission, Sir, I would like to quote from the Hansard what the Minister for Communications said. This is found in Vol. 30, No. 5, dated 2nd September, 1970, col. 261:

`The Member for Sembawang has made the suggestion that taxis should be allowed to use car parks. I see no reason why they should not be allowed if the taxi drivers pay for it. Of course, a taxi driver cannot just go to a public car park, parks his taxi for free, and goes for his meal. But if he parks his taxi in the public car park and is prepared to pay the regular 20 or 40 cents, I personally think [Interruption}. I will look into this matter. I cannot see the logic of it. It is a good suggestion which I am prepared to follow up with the party concerned. In this respect, of course, it is true that the Car Parks Division is in a different Ministry, and I will have to seek their co-operation to agree to this.'

Sir, in this respect, I would like to find out from the Minister what decision has since been taken on this matter.

Mr Barker: Sir, under the Motor Vehicles (Parking Places) Rules, 1959, taxis are not allowed to use the hourly parking lots. However, this prohibition has been relaxed in certain circumstances where taxis find it necessary to park in a paid-parking lot for reasons other than for plying for hire during such periods. Some of the reasons are letting down tourists in shopping areas and having to wait for them; and having official business with Government departments in localities where taxi-stands are not available. But when the rule is relaxed, the taxi driver takes advantage, and there are abuses as the Member should appreciate parking attendants have been instructed to use their discretion to ensure that taxi drivers do not abuse this privilege of using the hourly parking lots on some pretext to ply their taxis for hire.

Sir, I am afraid I was not following the Member in the last few seconds of his speech. Could he repeat his point?

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I just quoted from the Hansard in which the Minister for Communications had promised to look into this matter during the debate that took place on the 2nd September, 1970. The Minister for Law and National Development just now said that there are certain restrictions. But I do not think they are necessary. We should, in fact, allow the taxi drivers to park their taxis at public parking places without any restrictions. No taxi driver in his right senses would waste his time in a public car park. He would rather keep his taxi going on the road and so get more fares for the time which he would have lost in parking his taxi. What I want is to grant them absolute permission to park their taxis in the public car parks. The Minister has said that some abuses have resulted. Can the Minister say what these abuses are and whether these cases have been reported to the Superintendent of Car Parks?

Mr Barker: Sir, firstly, I am not responsible for what the Minister for Communications says in this House and whether or not he has followed up on his statement. I do not know. If the Member wishes, he can ask him. But he is not in charge of car parks; I am. And I do not agree with the Member that taxis should be allowed to park in public car parks. There are parking places meant for taxis, and they can use them. There are parking places for other vehicles. If you allow taxis to park and ply for hire from public car parks, then you may find taxis in all public car parks, while their own taxi-stands are not used. I am afraid I cannot agree with the Member on his suggestion to allow taxis to park freely in public car parks.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, the Minister has not answered the point whether abuses by taxi drivers have been reported to the Superintendent of Car Parks.

Mr Barker: The answer is yes.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (Tiong Bahru): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to give my views regarding car parks. Recently, I received a complaint from a friend of mine who said that one night he went to the Airport to see his friend off. He was in a hurry and he parked his car in one of the parking lots. After he had seen his friend off, he returned to the parking place and found a parking attendant. When he wanted to pay the parking fee, he found out that he had parked his car in a prohibited lot. At the Airport, there are three types of parking lots - hourly parking season parking and reserved parking lots. But the signboards for the three different kinds of parking lots are all the same - blue background with white lettering. If one does not pay attention to them, one will make mistakes by parking in a wrong place. Under the circumstances, my friend made a mistake. So he apologised to the parking attendant and wanted to pay for parking his car there. But the attendant said that he could not do anything because another parking attendant had already taken down the number of my friend's car and asked him to go home and wait for the summons to come. I have given this example not because I want to accuse the parking attendant for his attitude, but because I intend to request the authorities concerned to consider using different and brighter colours for the signboards for reserved and season parking or any other type of parking in order not to confuse the public. In fact, the parking attendant concerned was not wrong.

There is another case which I myself experienced. One afternoon, I parked my car in a parking lot in Niven Road. As I could not see any parking attendant around, I went off to attend to my own business. After 20 minutes I returned to my car. I looked around for a few minutes but I could not locate the attendant. I could not help but walk back along the parking lots hoping to find a parking attendant. Finally, I saw one hiding behind a wooden box on the five-foot way eating kachang puteh. Sir, in this instance, the parking attendant should be considered as being negligent of duty. But we should not be too particular about it because she was the only attendant in charge of the whole stretch of parking lots. If we want her to go up and down all the time attending to all the parking lots, it would be too much to expect of her. I feel that it is also a matter of shortage of staff and the situation is the same as in some of the other car parks. I would therefore request for more staff to be employed by the Car Parks Division.

Mr Barker: Sir, season and reserved parking lots are differentiated by the installation of appropriate signs, word markings and coloured delineation lines on the ground in the following manner. Season parking places are indicated by the installation of an adequate number of "Season Parking" signs, which also show the prescribed monthly charges. The season parking lots are demarcated in white lines on the ground. Reserved parking places are indicated by the installation of an adequate number of "Reserved Parking" signs. The reserved parking lots are demarcated in red with the word "Reserved" marked out on the ground. The Car Parks Division carries out regular checks and maintenance of the parking lots to ensure the legibility of the signs and the markings. Motorists should not have much difficulty in differentiating between season and reserved parking lots. Of course, some motorists are in a hurry. But for those who are not, and are in doubt, they can always consult the parking attendants on duty.

I do not think I need reply to the Member's comments on his own particular experience with one car parking attendant.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I propose to take the suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting and' will take the Chair again at 5.45 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.15 p.m, until 5.45 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.45 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 1107 (contd.) -

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1107 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1517.

Sir, I notice that car park attendants are normally young men and women who are in their early twenties. It would seem to me that a better future is in store for them if they are encouraged to take up jobs in factories where opportunities for skill-upgrading are available for them to improve their earning capacity and future prospects. On the other hand, there are retrenched employees who are too old to learn any new skill and are unable to find alternative employment. In future recruitment exercises of car park attendants, I would like to enquire whether the Ministry of National Development will consider giving preference to those retrenched employees who are willing to work as car park attendants.

Mr Barker: Sir, the Car Parks Division employs young people as parking attendants because the job, though routine in nature, is a tiring one especially on a hot day, and requires physical fitness for better efficiency. A young person with the necessary physical requirements is preferred for the job, as he will be better able to withstand the heat and other outdoor working conditions. The job of parking attendant is not intended as a permanent career for youngsters but to provide them with temporary employment and useful experience before moving on to other fields.

The question of age and qualifications has been taken up by the Ministry of National Development with the Ministry of Finance, and it has been agreed to reduce the academic qualifications to the Primary School Leaving Examination, though preference will be given to candidates who have passed a higher standard. We would still prefer young parking attendants for the job, and if those who are retrenched are young, which I doubt, they will be taken on as car park attendants.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Sir, in view of the explanation given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

In the absence of Mr J. F. Conceicao, the following amendment, standing in his name, was not proceeded with -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1107 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (2) of subhead 2123.

The sum of $14,593,210 for Head 1107 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1108 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1108 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ng Yeow Chong.)

Sir, this vote is for the Director of Public Works. Undoubtedly the Public Works Department has done a lot towards the construction of public roads in Singapore so that our road network is expanded and convenient for traffic and they are safe also. This has given a good impression to the tourists. This year the vote for this department is $13.8 million. This is a large sum of money. It is because this Department will have to undertake more projects. In view of this, we should scrutinise the expenditure of every item so that its expenditure will pay off. In this respect I would like to raise two matters. I would like the Minister to look into them and take measures to rectify the situation.

(1) I found that there was duplication of work in respect of certain projects, for instance, the one at MacPherson Road. Although it is not in my constituency, I have to travel along this road every day, and so I see that work is being carried out now. The road has been under excavation for two years continually. At a certain time I saw that a particular project was nearing completion, but after some time I noticed that certain workers came to dig into the road again. And still later, they were again levelled up. This has been going on many a time. This duplication of work not only causes traffic congestion there but also brings about inconvenience to members of the public. Also it constitutes a waste of public funds. The authorities concerned have told us that this is due to the lack of liaison between the Public Utilities Board, the Singapore Telephone Board, the Public Works Department and others. As a result of all this, a Co-ordinating Committee was set up to co-ordinate the various departments concerned in this kind of work so as to avoid duplication of work. But it seems that there is still some dislocation in these projects. If the Minister could take a look into this matter, I shall be grateful. I would like to ask the Minister why there still is this phenomenon of duplication of work, and hope that he will be able to answer that.

(2) I would like the Minister to consider this. Under the flyovers or overhead bridges, stores and shops can be erected. We have built quite a number of flyovers and overhead bridges, for example, in Toa Payoh and other places, which are all major projects. These overhead bridges have a lot of empty space underneath. We can make use of the space by putting up shops or stores and also to beautify them. In this way we will be able to provide more opportunities for our hawkers, at the same time, and this is more important, this will bring in more revenue for the Government.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, Singapore is known to have the best motoring roads in this region. Our roads are well-planned and built for heavy traffic; our highways and flyovers compare favourably with those in the advanced countries. Our road engineers in the Public Works Department deserve every praise for their good work. However, the patching up of pot-holes and resurfacing of some roads, after repairs to underground services, are not satisfactorily carried out. The roads remain uneven. Moreover the sides surrounding the manholes and water-mains are often left unfilled for days. If they are filled up later by manual labour, they are not evenly done. So when you motor along such roads, your car is bound to be affected by the severe bumps. In this respect I would urge our road engineers to make strict checks on either P.W.D. workers or contractors' labourers engaged in resurfacing of roads.

Sir, there is another aspect of our roads which I would like to comment on. The smooth surface of our road curves or bends is a hazard to fast-moving vehicles, especially on rainy days. To prove my point, there were two fatal accidents some time ago. One involved a bus and a military vehicle which skidded near the Anderson Bridge. Apparently the tyres of these fast-moving vehicles lost their grip on the road surface. To prevent skidding of speeding motor vehicles, may I, Sir, as a layman, suggest that all road bends or curves be laid with a rough surface instead of the usual smooth surface. I notice that this rough surface has been laid on a short stretch of the road curve near Anderson Bridge. I hope the Minister will consider my proposal to have all road curves or bends rendered with a rough surface to prevent fast-moving cars from skidding.

Mr Barker: Sir, what the Member for Sembawang complained about was true some years ago. He has been and is still complaining, and I think there is cause for complaint even now.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: They still complain now.

Mr Barker: Now - yes, but not as bad as before. There was a time when roads were built, but dug up by one department and then filled up. In the following week, another department would come and dig it up, and it goes on throughout the month. This was quite a common practice. But a few years ago we formed a Roads Co-ordination Committee, with members coming from the various departments which dig up roads, like the Public Utilities Board, the Water, Gas and Electricity departments, the Singapore Telephone Board and the Public Works Department.

6.00 p.m.

This Committee meets from time to time and has laid down certain rules -one to the effect that when an old road is dug up and a new road built, all the services should be laid in before the road is finally asphalted. Another rule is that any road that has been newly surfaced cannot be dug up unless there is an emergency, like a leaking water or gas pipe, or a broken electricity cable. Co-ordination has worked out better now in practice, but is not as smooth as I would like it to be, or as the Member for Sembawang would like it.

As for stalls near overhead bridges, they will be allowed under certain conditions: (1) if there is enough open space; (2) if the stalls do not cause hazards to pedestrians, motorists, and other road users; (3) they do not in any way damage or dirty the overhead bridge, and provided the food sold by the stalls, if they are food stalls, is not contaminated by dust and exhaust fumes.

The Member for Mountbatten has also complained about defective reinstatement of trenches. This is due to the fact that someone digs up a road and does not do much about filling it up and putting it back into its original condition. But the Member will be pleased to know that a unit was recently set up by the P.W.D. Roads Branch, headed by an engineer to co-ordinate the opening and reinstatement of trenches and roads. The duty of the unit will be to ensure that trench reinstatement is effected by the departments concerned, or the service departments, to their required standards.

Like the Member for Mountbatten, the P.W.D, has been concerned about the condition of road surfaces at certain corners and bends, especially when the roads are wet. The Branch has been experimenting with some measure of success with a special kind of asphalt pre-mix, which has a more endurable wearing quality and a better resistance to skid. This type of pre-mix has been laid in a number of road corners, roundabouts, and bends and its use will be progressively extended as suggested by the Member.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I thank the Minister for his not unsatisfactory reply. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1108 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1581*.(* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy.)

Sir, may I take this opportunity to congratulate the Trees and Parks Unit for the great energy it has put, and generally put happily and successfully, into making Singapore a green and pleasant place. Every encouragement should be given to the programme to' make Singapore cool and shady and a city characterised by a bland, garden and park atmosphere. But a few points of restraint should also be observed. For example, where trees may have to be planted on the sides of roads, care should be taken to see that pavements are not unnecessarily ripped off and the trees become an impediment to pedestrians. Mr Speaker, Sir, it is possible, especially in our suburban areas, but including those even in town, that people might like to go for a walk in the evening or early morning. However, walking becomes hazardous if one has to constantly step down from the pavement on to the road because of trees blocking the way of pedestrians. Another hazard, Sir, is the planting of trees at junctions, or at certain locations by the roadside which block the view of' motorists, thereby increasing the danger of road accidents. Having said that, Sir, I must revert once more to my note of general congratulation to the Trees and Parks Unit.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I join my colleague, the Member for Katong, in congratulating the Trees and Parks Unit.

I want to put forward a few points here. Last year's tree planting campaign turned out to be more of a shrub and foliage planting campaign. Could this year's tree planting campaign be properly directed in line with the meaning and purpose of the campaign? More fruit trees should be planted so that our birds will not migrate. Some of the trees planted in the past have grown to such an extent that it is evident these trees are poorly pruned. Some of these trees have drooping branches that brush against the top of certain vehicles going along the road and pose a danger to the people in the vehicles. For example, the trees along Dunearn Road block the lights from lamp-posts completely so much so that the roads are not properly lit at night. This can cause accidents especially at night. It is time these trees were properly pruned or the lamp-posts sited elsewhere.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I welcome the criticisms and suggestions of the two Members. They can barely be considered criticisms - planting of trees on side-walks or footpaths and at junctions which block the view of motorists, and the drooping branches of trees which block street lights.

In fact, directives have been given to this effect, taking into account the suggestions that have just been made. As for tree planting day, Members will be interested to know that in last year's tree planting day on the 17th of November, a total of 30,077 plants were planted, out of which 7,061 were roadside trees, 1,339 fruit trees, 14,330 shrubs, and 7,347 creepers or climbers. From the statistics, it is clear that quite a few trees were planted. In this year's tree planting campaign, which will again be held on the first Sunday of November, about 15,000 trees and 3,000 fruit trees will be made available for planting in the various constituencies.

The Member for Anson will be interested to know that the Trees and Parks Unit has four gangs of 38 men to carry out pruning of trees, transplanting of trees and felling of dangerous trees. If he knows of any tree causing obstruction, he can easily inform them and they will do the job.

Dr Augustine H. H. Tan (Whampoa): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I just add a minor suggestion here? I notice that quite a few of the trees have shed their leaves. Could the Trees and Parks Unit not choose the trees more carefully so that fewer leaves are dropped and the job of sweeping the roads made easier? This is a very minor point. However, I join in the general congratulations to the Unit. The job has been done very well indeed.

Mr Barker: Sir, the suggestion has already been looked into. But certain trees shed their leaves at certain times, and some trees shed more leaves than others. Instructions have been given not to plant certain trees, especially the Wattle tree which not only sheds leaves but drops quite a few brown seeds, which litter the road. But as we plant and plant, we will learn and try to better our performance.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $13,807,580 for Head 1108 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1110 -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1110 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Chief Building Surveyor, now known as the Assistant Director (Building Control), very often refuses to grant permission to prospective residents or offices to renovate their buildings by quoting one law or the other. I have raised this matter in my previous amendment. But this time I am talking about the land. Since these buildings are occupied by the residents, who are likely to stay there for some time, therefore, there seems to be little logic in refusing to grant them permission to carry out renovations. Sometimes a little relaxation of the law will serve a more useful purpose.

Sir, the certificate of fitness for housing estates or multi-storey buildings constructed by private developers, should be issued as soon as possible. The reason is that when complaints of damage to drains and other housing amenities are brought to the attention of the P.W.D., they would reply that since the certificate of fitness has not been granted, nothing could be done. This is the case with my estate. I would like to know why the Windsor Park Estate in Thomson Road has not been issued with the certificate of fitness, although the houses were built 12 years ago. Will the proper authority look into this matter and see that the certificate of fitness for the department concerned is issued to residents of the Windsor Park Estate as early as possible?

When private developers put up houses or erect multi-storey structures, they often choke up the drains around the building sites. These choked drains become ideal mosquito breeding grounds. Can the P.W.D, undertake to repair the drains and charge the developers for the cost of repairs?

6.15 p.m.

As an example, in Windsor Park Estate there is a drain which was damaged sometime ago. A complaint was lodged with the P.W.D. The reply given was that the estate was not built by the Government and, therefore, the P.W.D, could not repair it. I took this matter up myself. The drain is behind my neighbour's house as well as my house. The situation is very bad, and there are a lot of mosquitoes breeding there. So I wrote a letter to the Ministry of Health and they have referred it to the P.W.D. However, the P.W.D, said it was not their responsibility, and that we should go to the Singapore Government Officers' Co-operative Housing Society. I wrote a letter to the Society, but no action has been taken. The situation remains the same.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, Regulation 34 of the Local Government (Building) Regulations, 1966, says that before a certificate of fitness for occupation of a building is issued, the architect responsible will have to certify that he has personally supervised the erection of the building and that it has been built in accordance with existing building standards and requirements. In addition, the architect must also submit the necessary clearances from the appropriate authorities, such as Roads, Sewage, Health and the Fire Brigade. Delay in the issue of certificate of fitness is usually due to non-compliance with the requirements in one way or another. It is the responsibility of the developer concerned to maintain the roads and drains, etc., until such time as they are taken over by the P.W.D. The P.W.D, will not take over the maintenance of roads in an estate which has not been properly developed.

In the case of Windsor Park - I believe the Member for Anson is a resident there - a temporary occupation licence was issued in 1961, more than ten years ago, following completion being reported by the architect. At the same time, the architect was requested to submit amendment plans for the additions, or alterations and extensions to the various buildings in the estate. These amendment plans were subsequently approved, but despite several reminders the architect has so far not submitted his letter of supervision and the necessary clearances from the appropriate authorities; hence the delay.

The Member will be interested to know that the new Building Control Division, which was set up on 1st February, 1972, is at present making a thorough study of all outstanding cases where certificates of fitness have not been issued and will take follow-up action. I hope they will take some follow-up action in respect of Windsor Park.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to know from the Minister for Law and National Development whether he is aware that the Building Survey Department has no suitable equipment for the demolition of illegal structures made of steel. Sir, I have received complaints from the residents of Lorong Melayu in my constituency that a factory had been illegally constructed. This factory was erected in a residential area. The atmosphere there is now polluted by dust as a result of the work carried on in this factory. The reply I received from the Building Survey Department was that the structure of the building is made of iron, and that the Department, however, has no equipment to demolish it. Demolition work, therefore, cannot be carried out. On the other hand, if houses are owned by poor people, of course, they are made of planks and they would not be spared from demolition. This factory was constructed by rich people and the material used is made of iron. Therefore, it is spared from demolition. The building is still standing.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think it is a question of a building constructed by rich people or a question of a building made of iron. However, if what the Member alleges is true, then that factory should be demolished. All I can say at this stage is that I will look into this matter to find out why this unauthorised factory is still standing, irrespective of what it is made of. Whether it is made of iron is immaterial. And if he wishes to take it up further by way of an Oral Question I would probably be able to provide him with a better answer.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $903,350 for Head 1110 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1111 -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1111 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Sir, when the Planning Department approves a certain plan for development, a development charge is levied. Sometimes, however, a plan is revoked and money refunded. Why does it collect the money in the first place if the plan would be revoked later? It is a waste of time if a plan is later revoked and the money refunded. Why is the Planning Department so fickle-minded about approving a plan? If the Planning Department wishes to reject a plan, it can give 101 reasons for rejecting it. On the other hand, if it wishes to approve a plan it can give 101 reasons for approving it. If a developer asks for a development plan to be approved, the Planning Department will ask for the plan and say, "All right, I want to see your proprietor." I do not know why this is done. Anyway, there will be a delay in approving the plan. Surely something is wrong with the Planning Department. I hope the Minister will reorganise the Planning Department, otherwise there will be more complications in future.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, there seems to be some confusion in this matter. The Planning Act does not provide for the refund of a development charge even if the approved development plan, for which a charge was levied, is subsequently cancelled. There is no record that the Planning Department has refunded development charges in the manner cited by the Member for Anson. However, refunds are made by the Planning Department in respect of development charge deposits payable by applicants at the time of application. This is provided for under the Planning (Development Charge) Rules, 1965. Such refunds are only made when the planning permission applied for is not granted or if the application is withdrawn before a decision is made on the application. Perhaps therein lies the explanation.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: In view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,476,140 for Head 1111 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. Head 1112 -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1112 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Botanic Gardens has established its name both in the international botanic circles for its variety of plants and among the tourists for its serene and beautiful atmosphere. Since the Botanic Gardens is a leading tourist attraction, can it sell plants and orchids to the tourists? I am sure they would like to buy some orchid cuttings. Unfortunately, the Plant Sales Section is in an obscure corner of the Botanic Gardens, where the tourists are unlikely to notice.

Mr Barker: Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may just say this: most of the criticisms against my Ministry appear to be about someone who works in my Ministry. The sale of plants and orchids by the Botanic Gardens is now centralised at the Plant Sales Centre along the Floral Mile, Dunearn Road, so that a better service may be rendered and a wider choice of plants may be made available to local customers and tourists. The Plant Sales Section of the Botanic Gardens was transferred to the Centre recently to release land at the Botanic Gardens for the development of other amenities.

From past records, it appears that very few tourists wish to buy plants, including orchids, because apart from the difficulty of carrying them, most foreign countries have very strict plant importation rules, which make it difficult to introduce plants from other countries. I think therein lies the explanation for tourists not buying plants.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $925,700 for Head 1112 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1201 -

The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr N. Govindasamy: (1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (2) That the sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (1), Mr N. Govindasamy.

Mr N. Govindasamy: I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: I am also not moving, Sir.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1006.

Sir, why does the Ministry of Health recruit student nurses and assistant nurses and put them on different salary scales when they all have the same qualifications? There is great dissatisfaction among the assistant nurses because, although they possess the same qualifications as the student nurses they have very little prospects of promotion apart from the fact that they do not draw the same pay as the student nurses.

There is also another complaint. Some of the matrons in the hospitals seem to be a very unsympathetic "breed" of people. Not only do they bully their junior staff but they also show an indifferent attitude towards them. This is especially true as far as the granting of leave is concerned. Perhaps I can quote a particular instance. The father of one of the nurses passed away. Yet, the matron was so unsympathetic that she refused to grant the nurse a short leave in order to recover from the shock of her father's death. In the end, however, the nurse was granted leave by a sympathetic ward doctor. He had to intervene in the case because of the unfortunate condition of the nurse.

Nurses working on night shifts have to work for seven consecutive days, and each shift is a 10-hour duty. I think this is too strenuous for them. I wonder whether shorter working hours can be introduced for night duty in the hospitals.

6.30 p.m.

What form of co-ordination exists between the school health doctors and the hospital authorities? Quite often, children recommended by the school doctors for further treatment in the hospitals are subjected to great difficulties and humiliation by the doctors in the hospitals. In a few cases only was there any understanding between the school doctors and the doctors in the hospitals.

Sir, what is the sole purpose of a post-mortem? It seems that "tough" doctors, responsible for post-mortem, harass the relatives of the deceased into giving them permission to perform the post-mortem, failing which they even threaten the grieving relatives with delaying the release of the body for burial. I wish to quote the example of a patient who was in hospital for more than a week and died there. The doctors could not find the cause of death or the disease he was suffering from, and they insisted on a post-mortem. The officers in charge of the mortuary deliberately delayed the release of the body. Surely after the patient had been in hospital for more than a week, the doctors should have diagnosed the cause of illness, which would then not cause further inconvenience to the bereaved relatives.

Sir, I also wish to know how long does it take for the authorities to collect a dead body if the person dies either on the road or on a five-foot way? There are times when bodies have been left lying by the side of the road for as long as six hours. They were nothing better than dogs having been knocked down by some vehicles. Early this month at a place just off the Woodlands Checkpoint a man died of natural causes. The body was left for exhibition for more than six hours. Surely in a progressive-minded State like Singapore, even the dead should be given a certain amount of respect and should not be left lying by the side of the road to rot. If this situation worsens, the mortuary authorities might have only the bones to collect by the time they get moving.

Sir, I would also like to mention the case of an old lady, who is a resident in one of the Homes for the Aged, who fell sick and was sent to the Thomson Road General Hospital. She was warded for a day and discharged although her condition had not improved. I contacted the Medical Superintendent of the Hospital and asked him to retain her in the hospital. He replied that she was all right and furthermore there was no bed available in the hospital. Later I contacted the Director of Health of the Emergency Unit of Outram Road General Hospital, and although I offered to pay for her ward charges, he refused to ward the old lady and asked me to refer to the Thomson Road General Hospital. Subsequently, she was taken to the Outram Road General Hospital personally by her daughter, and she was immediately admitted with the assistance of a Sister. I have got to thank the Sister for helping her. Now I am told the patient has been discharged from the ward. She is not completely cured.

I understand that patients in first- class and second-class wards are allowed to stay longer in the hospitals, and be put under their care. This poor unfortunate old lady has been discharged, and now she is not well again. Why is she not given the same treatment although her daughter had agreed to pay the ward charges? From this experience, I think that some of the doctors take a couldn't-care-less attitude towards M.P.s. Is this the kind of service that Government servants can offer?

I would also like to inform the House that doctors in the hospitals do not have sufficient instruments. For example, when a person wants to go for a full X-ray, he has to line up. Otherwise he has to go to a private doctor to be X-rayed. There are so many instruments that doctors require but are not available.

The Minister should look into these matters and make the necessary arrangements to provide a better medical service for the people of Singapore.

The Minister for Health (Mr Chua Sian Chin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has enumerated about 10 queries. I shall answer them one by one. The first query is about Assistant Nurses. The question is: why should we continue to recruit Assistant Nurses? The answer is that Assistant Nurses are of a grade different to that of Trained Nurses because they do different types of jobs, the difference being that the Assistant Nurses have lesser responsibilities and they work under the supervision of the Trained Nurses. The Trained Nurses are not required to work under supervision. The point raised by the Member is: why have Assistant Nurses been recruited with the same qualifications as Trained Nurses? The reason is that although an Assistant Nurse is required to have a minimum education at Form III level, preference is given to those with a higher qualification. Trained Nurses, however, must pass the School Certificate. What happened was that in 1967 in a recruitment for Assistant Nurses, the number of applicants with School Certificate qualifications exceeded the number of vacancies available. As a result most of the Assistant Nurses recruited were holders of the School Certificate, and this has continued since 1967. But we have found that because these Assistant Nurses are School Certificate holders there have been a large number of drop-outs. It is because of their better qualifications, they have taken up jobs elsewhere which offer better opportunities. As a result of this, the Ministry of Health has recommended to the Public Service Commission that the recruitment of Pupil Nurses should now be confined to non-School Certificate holders. I hope that will suffice.

The second question that has been raised is: why are Matrons not sympathetic people? It is important to bear in mind that one cannot tar all Matrons just because of a particular case; I think it is unfair. With regard to this particular case of a nurse who was not given sympathetic consideration when she applied for leave, I must say this is the first time that such a case has come to my attention. If the Member for Anson had only been more conscientious and brought this matter to my attention, it would have been thoroughly investigated and any injustice would have been put right. The point is that it is very easy to make these allegations. We should have the specific facts of the complaint and there might well be a very good explanation to it. So I do not think it is fair to jump to conclusions.

Another question is: why are nurses put on night shifts seven nights at one stretch? This matter is debatable. There have been instances, particularly in the United Kingdom and other European countries, where nurses prefer a continuous seven-day night shift. Of course, there are others who disagree with this. But this has been the practice for many years without any complaints. Now there is one school of thought which says that a continuous night shift causes hardship and is rather strenuous. The Ministry has looked into this matter, and as a result we are proposing a new type of night duty roster, i.e, the nurses will perform night duty for three consecutive nights and then get a break. May I say that this is still in an experimental stage and, if it is found satisfactory, we might make this a general rule.

The other point concerns school health doctors and their co-ordination with the hospitals. May I say to the Member for Anson that there is close co-ordination between the two services. I do not know why he has brought up this complaint about lack of co-ordination. This again is the first complaint of its kind that I have heard. Of course, there might be cases where there could he some misunderstanding between the two services. But I can assure him that there is close co-ordination. If he has any particular complaint, he should not hesitate to bring it to my attention.

The Member for Anson also raised a question on post-mortem. May I tell him that it is quite essential for the advancement of medical knowledge that there should be post-mortem, because diagnosis is not always a certainty and knowledge is gained through post-mortem. However, let me say that no one can be forced to consent to a post-mortem against his wishes.

The other point that the Member for Anson raised is about the collection of dead bodies from roadsides and other public places. May I tell him that the responsibility for the collection and transport of a dead body from a road accident is generally undertaken by the Fire Brigade ambulance or the Police and not the ambulance from the hospitals.

Regarding the case of the old lady, here again this is the first time I hear of this case. If only the Member has written to me on this, of course, it would have been looked into. May I point out that a single case cannot possibly mean that the doctors or the medical superintendents are unsympathetic. The point is that we must have specific facts so that an investigation can be undertaken and the matter put right.

The Member also complained about insufficiency of instruments in the general hospitals. As far as our officers are concerned - and they are handling equipment everyday - the instruments and equipment used are considered adequate for day-to-day needs. The point I can admit here is that some of our equipment is quite old, and that is the reason why we have requested the Ministry of Finance to up-date all the equipment.

6.45 p.m.

This request for finance has been approved, and the amount of over $l� million has been provided for the up-dating and replacement of existing equipment, over and above that provided in the Ordinary Estimates. So the Member for Anson will in the future see that more up to-date equipment are in use in hospitals.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Minister for Health asked me to put up a separate complaint for each case. There is no doubt that if I were to put up a separate case for complaint, I will only receive a reply saying it is "regretted", "denied", "to be considered", or "next time it will be very carefully considered". Therefore, I do not want to bring these cases to the Ministry but to bring it up to the House. But I am sure the Minister will look into these matters properly and will do something about them. I, therefore, beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $16,412,890 for Head 1201 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1202 -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1202 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1031.

Sir, patients in third class wards are sometimes accommodated in the passage ways in the Outram Road General Hospital. Why is this so? I also understand that the food supplied to the patients is not proper, and the plates and cups appear to be very unhygienic. Can this matter be looked into? May I suggest that more first class, second class and third class wards should be created as the demand for beds is greater than the supply available in these wards?

Nowadays medical authorities are aware of the latest medical treatment of children. In the advanced countries of Europe and America, parents are allowed to stay with their children in the children's ward so as to facilitate the treatment of the children. It has been found that in this way children recover faster. Further, parents are able to relieve the doctors and nurses of their tiresome chores. It is time the Ministry of Health allowed parents or close relatives to stay close to their children, thereby reducing the length of stay for the children in hospitals. In this respect, I suggest that a common rest room for parents or close relatives be set up so that they can be near their children.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, let me first take the point about beds being put in the verandah on the C-class ward. The answer is quite simple. If we find that there are no beds available but the patient must be admitted, of course, we have to put him on the verandah. It is because of the shortage of beds. However, as a result of the taking over of the Alexandra Hospital, this situation has not occurred so often.

The other point is about the plates in the C-class ward. There is an allegation that some of the plates are broken. May I say that the plates for the C-class patients are not made of porcelain. In fact, they are steel plates. So it is not possible for them to break.

Yet another matter raised by the Member concerns the treatment of children. I agree with the Member for Anson that it is best you allow the parents to come along to stay with their children in the hospitals. In this way they can also look after their children, and the children will not have a traumatic experience of being taken away from their parents. As far as it is feasible, this has been the practice. In fact, this has been done in the Mistri Wing of the Outram Road General Hospital. But because of physical impossibility that has not been the general practice. First of all, we have not got a sleeping room for parents in the Mistri Wing of Outram Road General Hospital. Of course, there are no facilities for them to sleep in, but there is a common room there which can be used for this purpose. But now that we have plans for rebuilding the hospital, this matter will certainly be taken into account. As far as the Alexandra Hospital is concerned, the children's ward has such facilities. The parents can also stay in. In fact, we do allow parents in certain cases to remain with the children in the various wards.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the explanation of the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1202 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1321.

Sir, looking at Kandang Kerbau Hospital from outside, you will see that it is neat and clean; but it is not so inside. The third class ward has swing doors which are either badly dented or damaged. Yet nothing has been done about it. These doors have panels made of metal, but they are torn and become a source of danger to the patients, the nurses and the amahs.

I would also like to point out to the Minister the discrimination that exists in the Kandang Kerbau Hospital. The third class patients are not served with proper food. What is worse is that the nurses and amahs treat the patients very badly. I always support the Government servants, but wherever possible I would ask the Minister to take action. Quite often the nurses and amahs make rude remarks about certain patients in front of other patients. What is worse is that they shout at the patients if the patients are unfortunate enough to require any assistance. Such practice should be stopped immediately. The nurses and amahs are Government servants. As such they should be familiar with Government regulations. There is absolutely no excuse for these Government servants to behave like demi-gods. I know the amahs and nurses in the hospital are very hardworking. However, they must carry out their duty properly and not be rude to the public.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, may I first take the allegation that there has been discrimination by nurses and amahs against C-class patients in Kandang Kerbau Hospital? I say again that it is rather unfair on the part of the Member to make such a general allegation. There may have been such cases, but I have always stated that Members of the House or even members of the public can bring them up to me. The point is that I think it is rather unfair to make a general allegation and thereby tar the good name of the amahs and nurses in particular hospitals.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Not all of them!

Mr Chua Sian Chin: The point is that general allegations are not helpful at all unless specifically spelt out so that investigations can be made. There is always a black sheep in any flock. As I have always stated, it is our duty to see who is the black sheep and appropriate action will be taken. I think it is rather unfair to just tar the others because of the misdeeds of one. Besides, the Ministry of Health makes it a point that all nurses, doctors and amahs have name tags on them. So it is not an impersonal service; it is a personal service. You can personalise those who have done good and those who have been at fault.

The other point is about metal doors. I do not know why the Member for Anson should bring up a tiny point like this in this Chamber when he could easily have put it in to my Ministry, and I can assure him that it will be attended to.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I quite agree with the Minister's explanation that not every one of the amahs or nurses is rude to the people. I am just bringing this matter to the Minister's attention with the hope that he will take action on it. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $60,350,910 for Head 1202 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 1203 -

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1203 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1071.

I merely wish to ask the Minister for Health to what extent do these Inspectors of Factories, Industrial Health Unit, who are under the Senior Health Officer, have duties and functions similar to or different from those Inspectors of Factories in the Factory Inspectorate of the Ministry of Labour, under Head 0601 subhead 1104. Furthermore, in what way is liaison and co-ordination achieved between the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Health in this important sector of industrial health?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: As far as the first question is concerned, the post of Inspector of Factories in the Industrial Health Unit is actually for an officer correctly designated as an Industrial Hygienist. Industrial hygiene is concerned with the measurement, assessment and control of the working environment relating to factors that could lead to industrial disease and illnesses. In the establishment there is no such title as "Industrial Hygienist", and so the closest nomenclature is "Inspector of Factories", which has been used as the basic qualification. The salary scale for an Industrial Hygienist and an Inspector of Factories is the same.

On the other hand, Inspectors of Factories in the Factory Inspectorate are concerned largely with industrial accidents and safety measures and not with industrial diseases. Their responsibility is to see that safety requirements relating to factory machinery and conditions in the factory premises are observed.

With regard to liaison between the Industrial Health Unit of the Health Ministry and the Factory Inspectorate of the Labour Ministry, the answer is quite simple. The Industrial Health Unit has been administratively shifted to the Labour Ministry and are operating under the Labour Ministry.

Mr Conceicao: I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.00 p.m.

The following amendment stood in the names of Messrs J. F. Conceicao and P. Govindaswamy -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1203 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao.

Mr Conceicao: I am not moving, Sir.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1203 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

Sir, is the Public Cleansing Department supplying enough bins at the collection centres? Very often, because of insufficient bins at these collection points, rubbish spills over to the road, thereby producing not only a strong odour in the neighbourhood, but also providing excellent breeding grounds for rats, mosquitoes and cockroaches. Surely by providing a few more bins at these centres we are not going to tax the commoners more. The Public Health Department officials can surely take a little more action in this regard. The "Keep Singapore Clean and Green" campaign will become pointless if one of our Ministries becomes a specialist in breeding rats!

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, let me say that the Ministry of Health does not breed rats! But if we do breed them, they are white mice used for experiments. Regarding the other point about insufficiency of bins at the bin centres, as far as we are concerned there are sufficient bins at these centres. The problem is that at peak periods like the Chinese New Year, or just before the season, everybody does spring cleaning, and they discard just about every old stuff so that they can buy new items, like furniture and so on. That is the reason why rubbish during those periods has piled up. These are periodic instances of rubbish accumulating in excess of the normal volume because of certain habits of our people. So if the Member for Anson comes across rubbish overflowing and spilling on to the road, may I say that it can be just one of those seasons.

Further, of course, there may be cases where a vehicle has broken down and rubbish is not removed for that day. But in such cases it is usually removed on that evening or the next day. So the problem is not the insufficient supply of bins, because if that is so, then it is very easy for us to solve it by providing more bins.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1203 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1201.

Sir, Alsagoff Estate, which includes Geylang Serai, Kampong Ubi and Kampong Kembangan, is a low-lying area and often the drains get clogged and the water stagnated, so that it does not flow. This may be the result of the failure on the part of the Public Health Department officials to carry out their duties properly. Sometimes the residents themselves clean the drains because they do not wish to see the dirty and smelly drains. Workers from the Public Health Department do the cleansing work from time to time. But this is unsatisfactory because the number of workers engaged in such work is insufficient and time is also limited.

I wish to suggest that more anti-malarial oil he pumped into the stagnant water as it is one of the ways to reduce mosquito breeding in the area. I believe if this problem is looked into and resolved, mosquito breeding will be greatly reduced, thus providing a better health environment for the residents there.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, this is a perennial problem. It has been brought up again and again since last year. The Member for Geylang Serai has given us his version of the problem. But as far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, we have our own version of the problem which I shall explain. This problem has arisen fundamentally because the whole area is a low-lying area. The drainage of the area consists of a vast network of earth drains and the gradient is so slight that the water becomes sluggish and, in many cases, stagnant. In some places the matter is aggravated because of silting of these drains when it rains. The result of stagnant water, of course, is mosquito breeding. May I inform the Member for Geylang Serai that unfortunately some of the residents also contribute to the problem by throwing refuse into the drains. There are some civic-conscious residents who help to clean the drains, and at the same time there are those who are not so civic-conscious. They throw rubbish into the drains and worsen the problem.

May I say that we can only solve this fundamental problem by redeveloping the whole area, because it is not possible to make water flow upwards, as water flows from a higher level to a lower level. If the outlets are at a higher level than that of the drain, then you cannot solve the problem unless you raise the level of the whole area and reconstruct the whole drainage system. Meanwhile, whatever can be done to alleviate the situation has been done. The Ministry of Health and the P.W.D. are responsible for the maintenance of these drains, and the following action has been taken. There has been regular oiling of the drains, but the drawback is that if you oil it in the morning and it rains in the afternoon, the oil will literally go down the drain. Now, the relevant department has also been desilting the drains as far as possible, and any overgrown weeds on both sides of the drain are being cleared once in two months. If the Member for Geylang Serai would exhort the residents in his area to be more civic-conscious and not to throw rubbish into the drains but into proper dustbins, then of course the situation will improve.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, if what the Minister for Health has said is true, that is, there is no other alternative except to redevelop the whole area, then I believe the residents will welcome it. May I then know when will the development take place? However, in the meantime, the Public Health Division must carry out their daily work conscientiously until redevelopment takes place. Sir, as far as I know the Public Health Inspectors only check houses to see whether there is mosquito breeding, but neglect places like drains and vacant land. So whilst waiting for redevelopment as mentioned by the Minister, I hope the Ministry can discharge its duties to eradicate mosquito breeding in the residential areas as well as in vacant places.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I believe I have already answered the questions raised by the Member for Kampong Kembangan. As far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, in conjunction with the P.W.D., they are doing whatever they can to maintain the environment. However, we must realise that this is a very difficult job because of the prevailing conditions there. We are oiling the place regularly, but, as I have said, if it rains in the afternoon after it has been oiled in the morning, then it is oil down the drain. The other work of desilting is being carried out regularly, and unless we get the co-operation of these residents by refraining from throwing litter into the drains, then of course whatever has been done to alleviate the position will be to no avail. Whatever it is, action is being taken as best as the circumstances permit.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Sir, in view of the explanation by the Minister concerned, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1203 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1741.

Sir, can the Vector Control Unit check building sites more often because these are the places that mosquitoes often breed? Despite the anti-mosquito campaign, we still have a lot of mosquitoes, thus giving us sleepless nights. It is high time the Vector Control Unit did something positive and in full swing to get rid of the mosquito menace once for all!

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, what the Member for Anson has advocated about going thoroughly into the matter of reducing the mosquito menace in Singapore is being done by the Anti-Mosquito Branch of the Ministry of Health. In fact, for the last six months Public Health Inspectors have been visiting an average of over a thousand homes a week, and weekly statements of incidents of mosquito breeding have been issued to the press in order to exhort members of the public to take preventive measures within their own premises. Also, we make mention in the weekly statements of the number of notices and summonses issued against householders who have not been civic enough to take precautionary measures.

Now, may I inform the Member [or Anson that, although he mentioned the mosquito menace in general, it has been found that the major source of breeding is within private premises in built-up areas such as residential estates, like Windsor Park. Perhaps this will be of interest to the Member, who is also the President of the Residents' Association in Windsor Park. To take the case of Windsor Park, there has been only one complaint received from a resident concerning mosquitoes in the area.

7.15 p.m.

This was in January 1972. A survey on the incidence of mosquitoes was conducted, and it shows that with the exception of a septic tank, all the seven breeding sites were within private premises. Of course, the responsibility for the prevention of mosquito breeding in septic tank lies with the Government. In this case it is the P.W.D., and the matter has been referred to the relevant department for action. I hope the Member is satisfied with my answer.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am referring to a new building which is under construction. There is water all over the building site. I am not referring to Windsor Park only.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, when I mentioned mosquito breeding in private premises, I meant building sites as well. The prevention of mosquito breeding at building sites is not the responsibility of the Government. That is the responsibility of the site contractor. In Windsor Park, as a result of the survey, an instance of mosquito breeding was discovered at a construction site. The contractor was served with a notice and summoned accordingly.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I only wish to say that I have not been talking about Windsor Park in particular. However, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir,I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 1203 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1831.

Sometime ago the Minister for Health announced that all hawkers in the City area particularly would be centralised in a hawkers' centre. Before this scheme is carried out, will the Minister see to it that the empty pitches in the various hawker centres are filled up?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to correct the Member for Anson. I have never announced at any time that all hawkers will be centralised. Our announcement is that it is the policy to resite all bona fide hawkers into clean, hygienic centres which will be built in various parts of the city. This will be done after consultation with Members of Parliament of the various constituencies and members of the Citizens' Consultative Committees. We do not want to centralise because we might get a huge concentration of hawkers in the City. What we announced was the policy of resiting hawkers.

The Member has also mentioned about vacant pitches in hawker centres. May I say that these vacant pitches are only meant for bona fide hawkers who were registered in the 1968-69 census. Of course, some of the bona tide hawkers who were left out in the census can still be considered if the Member of Parliament for that area would recommend that he is, in fact, a bona fide hawker. In other words, all these vacant pitches will be filled up. The only point is that there is always a time lag between a vacancy arising and balloting.

Inche Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I read in today's newspaper about an article in the Readers' column that the latrine in the Geylang market is dirty. The writer has suggested that I should survey this market and take action accordingly. I wish to inform this House that the Geylang Serai market is in the Kampong Ubi constituency. It is not in the Geylang Serai constituency. This has been so ever since the 1968 general elections. If I remember correctly, before the Member for Kampong Ubi went to the Philippines as Singapore's Ambassador he did suggest to the Ministry concerned that the Geylang Serai market should have its name changed to Kampong Ubi market. However, the matter has so far not yet been resolved by the authorities concerned. All complaints in respect of this market have been directed to me because the market is known as the Geylang Serai market. Will the Minister explain why this matter has not been resolved?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, what is in a name? In fact, although the market may not fall within Geylang Serai constituency, it is situated along Jalan Geylang Serai. The reason why the name has not been changed to Kampong Ubi market is that it involves the changing of the regulations. If you change the name of the market, then you have to change the regulations. This is provided for in the regulations itself. We have considered this matter, and have decided that there is no necessity to change the name. After all what is in a name? Do we have to change the name of a market just because it falls within a particular constituency? This market has been historically known as Geylang Serai Market because it lies along Jalan Geylang Serai.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, for the information of the Minister, Jalan Geylang Serai itself is in Kampong Ubi constituency. The people have suggested to the Member for Kampong Ubi that it would be better if the name is changed to Kampong Ubi market. The people would then know that the market is in Kampong Ubi constituency.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, what the Member for Kampong Kembangan has said proves my point. Do we change the name of the constituency from Kampong Ubi to Geylang Serai just because Jalan Geylang Serai is in Kampong Ubi and not in Geylang Serai? After all, what is in a name?

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, what I meant was that Jalan Geylang Serai should be re-named Jalan Kampong Ubi.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 1203 be reduced by $100.

Mr Speaker, Sir, there is a factory in Jalan Chekor which has been illegally constructed in the residential area of Kampong Kembangan. Its electricity supply comes from a generator and this causes enough nuisance to the children who wish to study at home. This factory also uses sand and paint sprayers, which dirty the surroundings with sand and paint sprays, thus affecting the health of the residents living there.

I wish to know what steps are being taken to protect the residents prom diseases which might be caused by the dust, sand and paint.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, may I say that I am sympathetic to the residents of Kampong Kembangan who have to suffer this inconvenience from the operations of this illegal factory. I was here when the Member for Kampong Kembangan said to my colleague, the Minister for National Development, that this factory was, in fact, an unauthorised factory. I remember the Member said that this factory was made of steel and it was very difficult to demolish it.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: That was a different factory.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: It may be a different factory, but the circumstances are the same, in which case, I think the fastest way to deal with this problem is to have the factory demolished. This is a matter for the Building Control Division. As far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, where there is a complaint of noise or dust nuisance, we can only serve a nuisance notice, if it is not complied with, action will he taken in court. If the Member wants rapid action then, of course, it is the Building Control Division which can move in to demolish the factory, which I believe is an unauthorised building.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, since this factory was illegally constructed, I believe the P.W.D, will take action to demolish it. But meanwhile what steps are being taken by the Public Health Division of the Ministry to protect the residents in this area from diseases which might be caused by dust?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, as far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, after receiving the complaint of noise caused by the generator, we have advised the factory operator to resite the generator to another place. We have also advised the factory management to confine their operations to daylight hours, and not to operate it during the night. Court action has also been taken against the management for dumping refuse into the drain on two occasions. But as I have said, we can only issue a nuisance notice if there is any nuisance. In this particular case, when our inspectors went on their rounds they did not find any evidence of dust nuisance and as a result, no, nuisance notice could be served. Of course, as I have said, the quickest way to deal with this matter is to get a demolition order to pull the factory down.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $37,644,400 for Head 1203 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Pursuant to a resolution of the House, Mr Speaker thereupon left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress on the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1972, to 31st March, 1973, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Speaker: So be it.