MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1973 TO 31ST MARCH, 1974

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.32 p.m.

Head 0801 --

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong.).

In the kampung areas there still exist common problems which have to take a considerably long time to solve and with much effort. Therefore, in the present circumstances, I find it necessary to speak up in this House with all earnestness to appeal on behalf of the rural people, hoping that the authorities can sympathise with the difficulties and sufferings of these people and to exercise some flexibility in order to allow them to enjoy a more reasonable and better livelihood and a more hygienic way of living. In this way, I hope it can reduce the loss to the country. By loss, I mean the problem of the drinking water of the poor rural people.

We all know that in this world if there is no water, it is tantamount to having no blood in our human body. We know that water is precious, especially in Singapore as it has to depend on a neighbouring country for its water supply. Therefore, water is all the more precious to us. In recent months, we use to hear or see on the television, over the radio and Rediffusion, in public places and in the newspapers, the appeal and advice not to waste water. In fact, even if water is inexhaustible, because it is a primary need for life, we have to treasure it. We should not waste it.

In the rural areas, there are still some people staying in attap and wooden houses. Originally they had to depend on public standpipes for their drinking water. However, since many public standpipes have been shut or removed, their water supply was also cut off. But for the sake of making a living and because of health, they are willing to save up to pay for the cost of installation of water pipes. However, their applications were turned down because they have no house numbers. Thus they could not get any water supply. As a result, these people have no alternative but to try to get their water supply from their nearest friends or some good samaritans. Even the Minister can appreciate that they cannot live without water. So this puts them in a predicament. They can only get very little water for their daily needs. They pass their days in this way, as though they are living in hell!

In the rural areas water is very important because many of them rear domestic livestock and poultry. Poultry animals are not like human beings. They will defecate anywhere and at any time they like. They cannot be taught to go to proper places to do so. In these circumstances how are we going to prevent pollution of the environment?

Now our Government has set up a department for the control of environmental pollution. Since some of our people live in such unhygienic environment, how are we going to bring up a new rugged generation? If this situation were to persist for some time, I am sure this will become a burden to the society, and it will also constitute a loss to the country.

I believe that Members will also agree with me that in the rural areas, even today there are still many unauthorised attap houses. This is a fact. This is not something that only happens today. You can trace this fact up to the time when Rallies founded Singapore and set up the colonial Government. However, since rural people are in existence, if we do not supply water to them, we can all feel that these unfortunate people who stay in houses without numbers will not be able to live in a hygienic environment. Of course, I do not mean to say that the Government has not done anything. Ever since the present Government came to office, it has done many things. However, we should also remember that in the present circumstances we can still try to solve the problem, if not, the fundamental cause of the ills. The Government can exercise some flexibility and relax its rules and so allow those people who stay in unnumbered houses to install water-pipes in order to solve their problem of drinking water. In this way, the Government is keeping to its policy of giving the people a better environment to live in. This will also promote public health and prevent pollution from worsening. Furthermore, if the Government insists on its hard and fast rule that houses without numbers should not be allowed to install piped water, then our recent efforts in the various campaigns in respect of anti-mosquito, anti-pollution, etc, will be wasted.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, as a Member of Parliament from a rural constituency, I fully endorse and sympathise with the Member for Paya Lebar in respect of the hardships suffered by the rural people of Singapore. It is, therefore, my hope that the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to his appeal.

Here I would like to take the opportunity to raise a few points with the Minister. The first question is that of the disposal of industrial waste. We know that industrial development in Singapore is in full swing and is going at a very high rate. As a result there has also been an increase of industrial waste in Singapore. In my view, the present method of disposal of industrial waste is inadequate. Whether it is in respect of a single-storey factory or flatted factories, we can see that around such factories there is always a collection of industrial waste, heaps and heaps of rubbish attracting a lot of flies and other pests. They are also a fire hazard. In fact, some factories have suffered losses as a result of fire. I wonder whether the Minister concerned has any new method of disposal of the accumulating industrial waste in Singapore.

The next question I wish to raise is in connection with air pollution in Jurong Town. Jurong Town has developed into an industrial area with many factories in production. There are some 40,000 people living in the residential part of the industrial town.

2.45 p.m.

According to a recent survey, there is indication to show that the air in Jurong Town is the most polluted. As a result, there have been many complaints from residents who are concerned over the increasing pollution of the air in their environment. I would, therefore, ask the Minister whether he is aware of the increase of air pollution in Jurong Town. I have received complaints from residents in Jurong Town that every morning when they wake up they can see and feel a layer of black dust on their furniture, or on any flat surface in the house. I would like to ask the Minister whether the black dust is injurious to health and whether steps are taken to ensure that the production of such black dust is minimised.

Lastly, Sir, I would like to raise the question regarding the hygienic conditions of Jurong Town. Jurong Town is a model industrial town in Singapore. Tourists very often pay visits to this industrial town. Because of these foreign visits, whether the state of the environment is hygienic or not will leave a good or bad impression on the foreign visitors. Sir, does the Minister know what is the actual position regarding the hygienic environment of Jurong Town? I have seen that in some places the situation is far from satisfactory. Some drains are choked up in one place, and in other places, rubbish is strewn all over. These are the places occupied by foreign workers. Perhaps these imported labourers do not know the legal aspects of our social requirements. There may be cases of those who choose to ignore our requirements. But the fact remains that there are people in Jurong Town who do not keep to public health standards. I wonder whether the Minister concerned can do something about this.

The Minister for the Environment (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am most happy to learn that the Member for Paya Lebar is now well aware that water is precious. He has further emphasised how precious water is to us in Singapore by enumerating the difficulties which some of his constituents have faced because they suddenly found themselves without water. I think, having understood how precious water is, he will probably understand the reason why we are removing standpipes because a lot of wastage has been caused by these stand-pipes. Sir, the removal of standpipes in the Paya Lebar constituency is not done arbitrarily. I am sure all Members are aware that the Water Department of the Public Utilities Board have, in all instances of the removal of stand-pipes, worked closely with Members of Parliament. The procedure adopted before removing a standpipe is this: the Water Department will consult the Urban and Rural Services Committee which, in turn, will consult the Citizens' Consultative Committee of the area. The Member of Parliament is the adviser to the CCC of his constituency. It is only after these two Committees are satisfied that an alternative supply of water is available, or that there is an alternative supply of water, then and only then will the standpipe be cut off.

In the case of the Member for Paya Lebar, I am sure this procedure was followed. As far as I am aware, I have ascertained from the URSC and the CCC that there has been no complaint from him whatsoever. Therefore, I believe there must be a satisfactory alternative supply of water. Anyway, I am glad to note that the problem which he has brought up has made him realise that water is precious, and it is part of his duty to see that he saves water.

Coming to the Member for Jurong, let me say that it is neither the policy nor the duty of the Ministry of the Environment to remove trade or industrial refuse. Removal of trade or industrial refuse is part of the manufacturing process. The Government will try its best to remove refuse from trade premises and from houses daily. It is only when there is an increase in absenteeism of the workers, usually during festivals and holidays, when a greater amount of refuse is discarded that there is a pile-up of refuse. This is perhaps also because of the higher standard of living. It is usual to find that there is an increase in absenteeism during public holidays. And to highlight the problem, the newspapers publish a picture of a refuse heap just before it is removed. I think we are probably one of the few countries in the world where refuse is being removed daily, and it is not our duty to remove industrial refuse or trade waste. If the Member for Jurong said that manufacturers are willing to pay for its removal, I am sure there are many contractors who are willing to remove their refuse for them.

As for the fire hazard arising from industrial waste, it is largely because the factories have a very irresponsible attitude: they pile up their refuse and leave it there for quite some time. That is where the hazard lies.

I would like to reassure the Member for Jurong and the House again that the air in Singapore, including Jurong, is quite pure. We take measurements regularly and when factories violate anti-pollution requirements, action is taken against them. A number of offenders have been warned. In fact, two of them have been prosecuted under the Clean Air Act, because their chimneys have been emitting an excessive amount of smoke. A few others were also prosecuted for open burning of trade waste, thus causing a nuisance. An acid works has also been fined for emitting acidic fumes which exceed the minimum allowed.

I think it is advisable for hon. Members to note that open burning of trade and industrial refuse is now prohibited under the Clean Air Act. This Act was gazetted on the 26th of January this year. I would like to assure the Member for Jurong that the Anti-Pollution Unit will continue to closely watch emission from the various factories, and there will be no let up in their surveillance. We will not hesitate to bring the offending factories to court, as most of them have been given more than adequate time to comply with the requirements of the Clean Air Act.

As regards pollution in the urban area from motor vehicles, this is being closely watched. The Anti-Pollution Unit is working closely with the Registry of Vehicles on the measures to be taken to control pollution from this source.

I am glad also that the Member for Jurong has invited my inspectors to go to Jurong and ticket those people who have been throwing refuse all over the place. I only hope that when summonses arc issued to these offenders, he will not come up to me and ask for the summonses to be waived.

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): Mr Speaker, Sir, since we are ahead of guillotine time, I wonder whether you will permit mc to say a few words.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Ho See Beng: Sir, I do not wish to participate in this debate, but I just want to make a point of clarification. I think the Minister had side-tracked his answer to the question of the Member for Paya Lebar. What the Member for Paya Lebar asked was that since the standpipe has been removed, the villagers were not able to get any water. So they asked the PUB to supply them with water. But the PUB said. "You do not have a number to your house, and therefore we cannot supply you with water." So under the circumstances how are these villagers going to get their supply of water?

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Member for Bras Basah for his support and assistance in clarifying my question to the Minister. The question I raised was not answered at all. The Minister has not answered my point. My question is: is it possible for water supply to he given to unnumbered houses? In other words, is the PUB prepared to supply water to unnumbered houses? I am not complaining against the removal of stand pipes. I am fully behind the Minister in removing the standpipes, because of the wastage caused. But once the standpipes have been cut off, the PUB must give an alternative water supply to the villagers.

The second question I wish to clarify is this. He has said that the CCC and the Member of Parliament for the area have not complained to the Urban and Rural Services Committee. In fact, the URSC informed us that these stand-pipes would be cut off, and I was advised to tell the villagers to apply for an alternative water supply. I asked them to do so, but their applications were turned down. There was a stand-pipe at Lorong Tai Seng market meant for the hawkers to keep their places clean. We brought this up with the URSC and requested for a standpipe to be installed at Lorong Tai Seng, near the market. It was turned down. We did take action on this. My question is not so much about standpipes. My question is: is the Minister prepared to grant water supply to those people living in unnumbered houses? Yes or no? That is all.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, let me ask him a question: will he pay for the water consumed by these people? Since they have no house numbers, where can I send the bill to? That is the reason why the Water Department does not approve applications from residents of unnumbered houses, because we cannot send the bill to these people. That is the simple reason.

As regards consultation with the URSC, I think we have had none of these problems from any of the other Members, and we do not disconnect the water supply unless the URSC and the CCC are satisfied that there is an alternative water supply. I presume when the CCC says so, it has the benefit of the advice of the Member of Parliament concerned, and unless they say that there is an alternative supply, or there is available an alternative supply, we do not cut off the water supply. We know how difficult it is for people to be without water. Therefore, if the Member for Paya Lebar has really looked into the problem, he would have raised the matter with the CCC and the URSC. We do not cut off water supply without making sure there is an alternative supply.

3.00 p.m.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I would like to tell the Minister that in 1972 I made an application for a standpipe to be erected at Lorong Tai Seng market, but this was turned down. The crux of the matter is still this. The Minister says that it is difficult to send the water bills to the unnumbered houses. It is a very simple matter. Even though there are no houses in Singapore we may have to build thousands upon thousands of houses for the people. Assuming that there are no numbers, we can still send the bills to the houses. It is as simple as that.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not number the houses for people.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, the question is not whether you are responsible for giving the house numbers. You can give a special number for the supply of water and electricity. Then with that special number, you will be able to get the bills paid.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, this is the first time I have heard of a "water number". What is a water number? Who gives the water number? And with the water number, can you find the addresses? The answer is that, if you do not have numbers to our houses, you do not get water.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry of the Environment is a new Ministry. The consumers' numbers are available. We can ask the URSC.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development (Mr Ho Cheng Choon): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the answer is a very simple one. If these attap house dwellers at the moment have no house numbers with which to apply to the PUB for water supplies, then the simple thing for them to do is to come to the Ministry of National Development, Building Control Division, for assistance in applying for house numbers to be given by the Property Tax Division. That is the proper way to solve the problem. If the Member has any special difficulties, he can write to my Ministry for attention.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): I would like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development for his answer. My concern is that when these people who live in unnumbered houses write to the department, then they would be considered as dwellers of unauthorised houses and their houses would be pulled down.

Mr Ho Cheng Choon: (In Mandarin): This is not a question of the demolition of unauthorised houses. But if the Member has any difficulty we are prepared at any time to give him assistance.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Minister for the Environment. I would like to call for a Division.

Question put, "That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001."

Mr Tay Boon Too: Division.

The House divided: Ayes. 1: Noes, 37; Abstentions, 6; Absent. 21. Ayes Noes Tay Boon Too A. Rahim Ishak Ahmad Mattar Abstentions Ang Kok Peng Baptist, Ivan Abdul Aziz Karim Chai Chong Yii Govindaswamy, P. Chin Ham Tong Ho Kah Leong Ch'ng Jit Koon Ho See Beng Chor Yeok Eng Hwang Soo Jin Conceicao, J. F. Tan Eng Liang Fong Sip Chee Ho Cheng Choon Absent Hon Sui Sen Jek Yeun Thong Ang Nam Piau Lai Tha Chai Barker, E. W. Lee Yiok Seng Chan Chee Seng Lim Kim San Cheong Yuen Chee Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi Chiang Hai Ding Ng Kah Ting Absent:-cont. Noes:-cont. Chua Sian Chin Ng Yeow Chong Goh Keng Swee Ong Leong Boon Govindasamy, N. Ong Soo Chuan Lee Chiaw Meng Ong Teng Cheong Lee Khoon Choy Phey Yew Kok Lee Kuan Yew Phua Bah Lee Lim Guan Hoo Rahmat Bin Kenap Al-Haj Ong Pang Boon Rodrigo, L. P. Othman Bin Wok Seah Mui Kok Rajaratnam, S. Sha'ari Bin Tadin Selvadurai, P. Sia Kah Hui Tan, Augustine, H. H. Sia Khoon Seong Toh Chin Chye Sim Boon Woo Wong Lin Ken Tang See Chim Ya'acob Bin Mohamed Teong Eng Siong Yong Nyuk Lin Wee Toon Boon Yeo Choo Kok Yeo Toon Chia Yeoh Ghim Seng

Question on the amendment accordingly negatived.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1071.

Sir, since the implementation of legislation for the control of pollution in Singapore, there has been a remarkable improvement in the environment. However, I wish to point out the dirty and smelly condition of the rubbish collection centres located in different parts of the island. Obviously certain centres do not have enough containers for the collection of rubbish. Consequently, there is a fantastic amount of rubbish spilling on to the road resulting in dirty and smelly roads. One clear example is the rubbish collection centre next to Kandang Kerbau market. Not only does the rubbish spill on to the road but also into the canal next to it. All efforts will be wasted if the hawkers are careless or if there are insufficient bins at the collection centres. It is very unhygienic for health and could result in the breeding of flies. I hope the department concerned would look into it and see that the rubbish is cleared at least twice a day, even on holidays and Sundays, especially in the hawker areas and housing estates.

3.15 p.m.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, we try our best to clear all the refuse. But, as I said, during holidays there is usually an increase in absenteeism and also an increase in rubbish because of the rise in the standard of living. The Member for Anson suggested that we remove the rubbish at least twice a day. 1 have known of instances where we remove the rubbish five times a day and the rubbish still keep piling up. We are trying to solve the problem by mechanisation, and if the Member will help us recruit workers, probably the problem could be more easily solved.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Minister for the Environment has asked me to recruit workers. What does he mean by that? He is a responsible Minister. He should recruit the workers. If he cannot get the workers in Singapore, he should import them from other countries under an agreement.

The Chairman: Do you want to take a vote on that, Mr P. Govindaswamy?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: No, Sir,I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1182.

Sir, we should feel proud that foreigners visiting our country praise Singapore for its cleanliness. The cleanliness of our city is well looked after. But, to my surprise, the rural areas are neglected. During my periodical tour of my constituency, the residents approached me and complained that refuse in the kampungs were not removed, sonic-times for weeks. Sir, I think the other Members of the rural constituencies also face the same problem. I appeal to the Minister to immediately look into this matter with great urgency and to pay more attention to the health of the rural people.

Sir, I would also like to bring to the attention of the Minister the problem of inconsiderate drivers of Public Health vehicles which carry refuse for dumping at Koh Sek Lim Road. They drive at a pretty fast speed along the narrow roads, thereby spilling the refuse on to the roads and, at the same time, this is quite dangerous to the children in the villages. I hope that the Minister will take immediate action to remedy the situation.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I presume the Member for Changi must be talking about rural areas which are inaccessible either to the vehicles of the Ministry or to hand-carts, because normally where premises are accessible to the Ministry's vehicles, the refuse is collected direct. Where premises are not accessible to the vehicles of the Ministry, the refuse is collected by hand-carts. It is only in places where it is inaccessible either to lorries or to hand-carts that we ask the residents to bring their refuse to the collection centre. I have already mentioned just now that there is a shortage of workers and to remove refuse by hand is labour-intensive. The problem here is to find enough men to do that. However, as I said, we are mechanising, and I hope that with more mechanisation we can make-do with less manual labour.

With regard to the complaint about inconsiderate driving by drivers of the Ministry's vehicles along Koh Sek Lim Road, it is difficult to take action. We have asked our inspectors and drivers to be considerate and to be careful in what they do. But if the Member for Changi can give me specific instances of inconsiderate driving, resulting in refuse spilling on to the road, action will be taken.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I will certainly give the Minister specific instances. In view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1261.

Sir, in moving this amendment, may I range over my next amendment* on subhead 1441? (* The amendment reads as follows: (5)That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by 510 in respect of subhead 1441.)

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I have been noticing that many drains have been found to be choked and the flow of water is being obstructed, especially with the underground and the monsoon drains. It is therefore necessary to clear these drains as often as possible. Some of them are found to be awfully smelly and filthy, for example, the drain along North Bridge Road opposite the former Raffles Institution.

Sir, I would also like to know the progress of the construction work at Rochore Canal, which will provide a better drainage system. It looks as if the work has stopped. If so, why is the work left uncompleted?

Sir, I would also like to voice out that there are many places, especially at construction sites, where stagnant pools of water are found, and these become grounds for mosquito breeding. This may affect the health of our citizens, even for the people living in the Housing Board flats. I wonder what is the Department doing to get rid of this menace. Although malaria is not a common disease in Singapore, it should nevertheless be completely eradicated.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, in spite of the "Anti-Litter Campaign", people still keep throwing refuse into the drains. As a result, the drains are choked, mosquitoes breed in them, giving rise to smells and all that. We are well aware of the problem, especially with mosquitoes. The health inspectors do go round to persuade contractors to take preventive measures against mosquito breeding. We try to clean the drains as often as possible. But here we must seek the co-operation of the public in trying not to throw refuse or sullage water into the drains so as to block the free flow of water. We are carrying out regular oiling in all these places. The inspectors do go round to the contractors and warn them of the dangers of mosquito breeding. If they do not conform and do not take preventive measures, they are summoned and fined.

To assure the Member for Anson, I would like to clarify that mosquitoes commonly found breeding in construction sites are of the Aedes and Culex species, and they are not vectors of malaria.

The construction work at Rochore Canal Road has stopped because the original contractor has failed. We have suspended him and we have got a new contractor. The work will resume as soon as the new contractor can get to the work site.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to he allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1541*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy.)

Sir, the policy of licensing hawkers who were hawking before 1968 should be reviewed, especially in the case of Changi constituency. Hon. Members of this House will agree with me that Changi was hard hit economically by the British withdrawal. Many of the former RAF employees, whether directly or indirectly employed, were out of employment. Some of them were unable to get other jobs and they turned to hawking for their livelihood. This took place two or three years ago. With the present policy of licensing hawkers, these people are therefore not qualified to get a hawker's licence. I would strongly urge the Minister to reconsider the present hawker's licensing policy to enable many of the present hawkers, who were doing such business for their livelihood for the last two or three years to get a licence.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have received many complaints about some hawker inspectors not carrying out their duties justly and reasonably. The complaints were that they issued summonses to some hawkers biasly. There was an instance when many hawkers were found to cause obstruction to a passage way and yet only one was served with a summons. And when the hawker inspector was questioned for his actions, he answered. "That is not your duty." It shows that there is prejudice and injustice going on in this regard. The department concerned should take action to stop this state of affairs.

Sir, I wonder whether during festival days, rules relating to obstruction of roads or public places could be relaxed so that the poor hawkers can do their business more freely in view of the fact that business is brisk on such days. I hope the department concerned would be lenient and sympathetic towards the hawkers during such periods.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, much as I sympathise with the Member for Changi with regard to the plight of his constituents, the department's policy of not giving new hawker licences is a good one. Otherwise, the policy that we are carrying out now of resiting all bona fide hawkers would go awry. We are already finding great difficulty in resiting bona fide hawkers, i.e, hawkers who were registered prior to 1968. If, at the same time, we are to increase the number of new hawkers, then it would be an impossible job to resite all of them. I doubt very much whether new hawkers can be registered. It is not our policy to encourage hawking as such because it has brought about a lot of pollution. As it is, we are already finding our hands full with controlling whatever pollution there is.

3.30 p.m.

We have looked into this problem and, as I have said, the Ministry itself is short of workers. In this respect we have gone down to his area and we have so far employed 50 of those who were retrenched by the British forces. There is no reason why some of these retrenched workers cannot be retrained because quite a large number of new industries are being set up in Changi. If there are real cases of hardship, perhaps they can be brought to my notice. We could employ these people in the Ministry of the Environment to help us clear the rubbish and keep the place clean.

The Member for Anson said that he has received many complaints about discrimination by hawker inspectors. The Ministry takes a very serious view of any discriminatory practices by hawker inspectors. Largely, I think the complaint is not so much that they are discriminating; it is perhaps because they have done their job very well. However, if there are real cases of discrimination, they can be brought to my notice with specific details and action will be taken.

I am very much worried by his request for relaxation of the rules during festive seasons. Once you relax, you allow people to do as they like - illegal hawkers will come in; hawkers will obstruct traffic during festive seasons- and this will become a habit and compound the problem. As it is, we are having great difficulty in keeping these people within the law, it is easy to relax rules, but very hard to bring them back to observing them again. Therefore, we cannot make exceptions even on festival days.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: By "relax", I mean just close an eye! That is all.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, if I should close an eye and ask my inspector to close an eye, Members will come up to me and say that my inspectors have been discriminating, "How is it that on such a day, they did not summon so-and-so? And yet today he is being summoned?"

Mr Sim Boon Woo: In view of the explanation given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement:

Mr P. Govindaswamy: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1621.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 11.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I am not moving amendment (7), Sir.

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here. Amendment (9), Mr Teong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 19*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi.)

Sir, our Government has done all it can to look after the welfare of our hawkers. Hawkers were formerly under the control of the Ministry of Health, but now that they come under the control of the Ministry of the Environment, many new measures have been introduced, for example, the resiting of hawkers, and issuing of licences to hawkers to enable them to carry out their business in hawkers centres. These hawkers now ply only on one side of the road, whereas previously they used to ply on both sides. This has helped to ease traffic congestion. We have also built hawkers centres, for example, near Newton Circus, 6th m.s. Bukit Timah. All these are very good measures for the benefit of the hawkers.

In the current Estimates, there is a provision of $5 million for development and improvement to markets and hawkers' sites. I would like to ask the Minister two questions concerning this provision. Firstly, where will the new hawkers' sites be? I know there is one in Sembawang; so I am not going to ask one for Sembawang, but for other areas. Yesterday the Minister said that other areas will be looked after too. So where will the new hawkers' sites be? Secondly, what are the old markets that are going to be developed and improved?

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampung Kembangan): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, during the cholera epidemic 2 1/2 years ago, the area that was affected by cholera was Kampung Kembangan and its neighbourhood. According to a statement of the Ministry of Health at that time, the condition of the stalls was poor. The hawkers had to stop their business on the instructions of the Ministry concerned. The livelihood of these hawkers was badly affected. Although they were given assistance by the Social Welfare Department, it was only given as a token of sympathy by the Government. It was far from sufficient to meet the needs of their families. I urge the Minister for the Environment to take steps to provide a hawkers centre in the Kampung Kembangan area so that such an epidemic would not happen again.

Mr Lim Kim San: First, to answer the Member for Sembawang. We are building three hawkers centres: at Empress Place, Telok Ayer Market and North Bridge Road. They are expected to be completed this year. These are the old projects. Tenders for hawkers centres at Jalan Besar and Beach Road are now being called. In addition, there are eight more projects in various parts of Singapore. They will be implemented this year. The above 13 hawkers centres, plus one centre already built at Yung Sheng Road, Jurong, will accommodate about 1,600 hawkers in all, and the estimated cost is about $7.4 million.

Coming to the Member for Kampung Kembangan, may I say that the building of a hawkers centre will not stop any epidemic of enteric diseases. I think it is more the practice of personal hygiene. Regardless of whether they are accommodated in a centre or hawking. If hawkers were to practise personal hygiene, they are not likely to spread diseases, and therefore their livelihood and the health of their customers will not be endangered. It is unlikely that they will be ordered to stop selling unless there is a danger of their spreading diseases. For instance, at the last and biggest cholera epidemic outbreak we ever had, there was a total of 114 cases, with three deaths. Twelve carriers were detected. Fortunately, we were able to control the outbreak. Most of the victims ate from hawker stalls. Out of 641 food samples taken from hawkers in the affected area, 357 samples, or more than half of the hawkers were found to sell food contaminated with faecal coliform organisms. These are germs found in faeces of human beings. In other words, you find traces of faeces in the food. These findings indicate that the food handlers had not practised personal hygiene. Therefore, even if we move them into hawkers centres so long as they are not careful in their personal hygiene, there will be an epidemic and they will have to stop selling.

There is going to be a major development in the Kampung Kembangan area. In common with all the other areas where development will take place, there will be plans for markets and hawkers centres in Kampung Kembangan. So if the Member will bide his time, he will have all these developments in his constituency.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has answered my question satisfactorily, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 20.

Sir, mechanisation of the Public Cleansing Services is given a provision half as much more than last year's Estimates. I do not know what type of equipment will be necessary for these services.

But what I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister is that the refuse, that is being dumped in bins for daily collection by this Service, is not collected daily because the refuse vehicles cannot enter into these areas. Hand-carts cannot go through these lorongs and lanes because they are damaged, as for example, the roads and lanes in Kampung Kembangan. These hand-carts collect refuse from only five or six houses where the refuse is being thrown. These workers find difficulty in pushing their hand-carts because they are so full of rubbish. Moreover, the roads are not properly surfaced. Such places which are inaccessible to lorries and hand-carts should be improved. House owners pay for such cleansing services every month, whether the refuse is collected or not. Therefore, 1 feel that people who send their refuse to rubbish dumps elsewhere should be exempted from paying for this service.

3.45 p.m.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is very difficult to exempt payment of refuse fees to only a section of the population. The only thing we can do, Sir, is to see that we have enough people to collect the refuse. There is a shortage of labour. However, we are trying out a new way of collecting waste by encouraging people whose premises are not accessible either to hand-carts or trucks, to put their refuse in paper bags, and dump the bags at the refuse centre. They will probably find this method of refuse disposal much easier. But it will be difficult to exempt a certain portion of the population from paying refuse fees. Probably in the course of development within the next few months or years, the area mentioned by the hon. Member may have a few roads or tracks opened so that the hand-carts can go in. We will look into this matter, but it is impossible to exempt them from payment of fees.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, in view of the explanation given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 21.

Sir, I think acquisition of land for refuse disposal should not be the only means of refuse disposal. At the same time whilst I appreciate the difficulty involved and the time needed for the refuse incinerator and compaction plant to be built, the conventional means of merely dumping trade and household refuse at the refuse disposal sites is both unhealthy and "anti-environment". I am sure the Members will agree with me on this, because this will cause air pollution, not forgetting the stench emanating from the rubbish heaps. For example, I have received many complaints from my constituents regarding the stench and breeding of flies in the Tampines refuse dumping ground. I wonder if steps are being taken to eradicate this.

As a matter of interest, Sir, the Housing and Development Board is at the present moment, building flats at the Tampines Estate, just next to the Tampines dumping ground. When these flats are ready, and with the present Tampines dumping ground still in existence, and with still more refuse being dumped there, I do not know just what will be the reaction of future residents of this Estate.

Sir, under this vote, more land is being acquired for this purpose. In this respect, I would like to know from the Minister when will the refuse incinerator and compaction plant be built, and where will they be sited? I hope it will not be in Punggol again!

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, refuse sites are usually located in tidal swamp lands. For obvious reasons, I think it is advisable for me to indicate the actual locations, as the Ministry is in the process of acquiring these lands. We are well aware that with the increase in population and with our limited land space, we have to think of new ways of disposing refuse. So the uses of incinerator and compaction plant are possible ways. But this is something which you are not likely to go ahead with lightly because the cost of the compaction plant and incinerator is in the region of $100 million! There is also the problem of pollution: how big is the incinerator and where is it going to be sited? What sort of compaction plant will you have, and where will you locate it? If you locate the plant at Tampines, the Member for Punggol will again complain because, in addition to the smell, he will get the noise. And if the incinerator is also there, he will get air pollution too. Therefore, this matter needs very careful study by specialists. Anyway, we arc embarking on this study, and it will be some time before we come out with the appropriate method or methods suitable for our use. I hope that answers the question.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has not answered one part of my question, i.e., whether his Ministry will take steps to minimise the pollution emanating from the Tampines dumping ground. I have said that, apart from air pollution, there is the question of breeding of mosquitoes and flies, which is so acute that I have to come to this House every year to raise this problem. The hon. Minister for Health and Hone Affairs can bear me out on this. I would like the Minister for the Environment to assure the House that he will take steps to minimise air pollution and fly-breeding in the Tampines dumping ground. I know very well that we have to use that area as a dumping ground because it is a swampy area and affected by tidal waves. But nevertheless, Sir, steps must still be taken to minimise this inconvenience caused to the people living there as it is a danger to health.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, it is a very good sign that people are complaining about smell. It means they are becoming aware of the need for a clean environment, and are more voluble now.

However, if you live somewhere near a dumping ground, the smell is just unavoidable. We can keep it to the minimum. I believe the department has been quite efficient, and they have been keeping the smell down to the lowest minimum possible. If you live next to a septic tank, then of course you cannot avoid smelling what is in it. But we are doing everything possible technically, to keep the pollution down to the barest minimum.

For the information of the Member, we do spray the dumping ground regularly with anti-malarial or anti-mosquito oil, and insecticides. We do not let the refuse rot to high heaven. We try to keep pollution down to the minimum. It is just too bad if you live in that area where the smell is unavoidable.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: In fact, I was in that area before the dumping ground was there. Anyway, Sir, I must thank the Minister for his reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission I would like to move my amendment together with amendment (14)*.

• Amendment (14), standing in the name of Tuan Haji Mohd Ariff Bin Suradi, reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 45.

The Chairman: Yes.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $l0 in respect of subhead 38.

Sir, this year's provision for the Siglap Canal Improvement project is six times more than last year's. Although the provision has increased from year to year, the development of the canal at Siglap, in Kampung Kembangan constituency, has not progressed much. Digging of sand is not being carried out there. Sir, the majority of the area in Kampung Kembangan constituency consists of sand. During the rainy season, sand is usually washed into the drains. As time goes by, the condition of the drains grows from bad to worse, and water cannot flow properly because of the lack of attention given to this canal.

Sir, I would like to request the Minister concerned to look into this problem so that this canal could be properly maintained and that the area is not polluted by this canal.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, contrary to what the Member for Kampung Kembangan may think, the Siglap canal is being maintained regularly. I agree there is a lot of sand. This is largely because of the development and earth-works going on in the area there. When there is heavy rain, sand gets washed into the canal, and this problem is accentuated by the sand-bar at the south-end of the canal. However, steps arc being taken to widen the canal and to bring the peak fall beyond the sand-bar into a deeper part of the sea, so that the sand that goes through will not pile up on the sand-bar and thus block the canal. The work is in hand. That is the reason why $600,000 is required for it.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, in view of the explanation given, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 42.

Sir, the provision allocated for Minor Drainage Improvement is $450,000, as compared with $300,000 last year. With the extra provision of $150,000 this year, I hope the drains in most of the roads in Kampung Kembangan can be repaired. For example, the drains on both sides of Changi Road have broken down and the same condition can be said for the drains along the roads made under section 19 of the Local Government Integration Act. The drains are not properly made. As a result, water cannot flow properly, so much so that the owners of land in the area had to pay for the repair of roads and drains in front of their houses. This is because the drains are not properly constructed resulting in poor water drainage.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister has said just now that water is precious and that we should not waste water. But I know that a lot of drains are being flushed with potable water from hydrants. Why cannot these drains be flushed with effluent water transported by lorries? Is this not one of the ways to waste water which is, of course, precious?

4.00 p.m.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Kampung Kembangan will recall that a large number of drainage improvement projects have been completed in his constituency. For example, there are two main drainage outlets, one along Jalan Kembangan and the other along Jalan Wijaya, not to mention a number of subsidiary drainage projects which have been completed. As 1 have said just now in reply to certain questions raised by him under another subhead, there is going to be a major development in his area, and there is no point in spending money on improving drains when they will only be temporary. However, where it is found that a minor improvement could improve the drainage, and where it is feasible to do so, money will be spent on it. But where a major development will affect the drainage, then we will just do a little bit of repair work.

With regard to using potable water to flush the drains, I would like to say that this practice has been stopped for almost a year. We have not used potable water to flush drains, unless for health reasons we have to use potable water, for example, in the markets and crowded hawker centres. Much as we like to use effluent water to flush drains, it is not safe to do so because it might contaminate the food. At the moment effluent water is not as clean or as pure and sterile as potable water. We are, however, working on a system of tertiary treatment of effluent water. By further treatment, we hope to be able to bring it up to the standard of potable water. By then we could probably use effluent water for flushing. But at the moment to use effluent water for flushing drains would endanger the health of our citizens. In the process of flushing, sprays of effluent water may drop on to the food or may spill on to passers-by. Therefore, though water is precious, the health of our citizens is more precious.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, the drains I referred to are the drains which had been made in the developed areas, at Lorong Maideen, Lorong Melayu, etc. These drains were made under section 19 of the Local Government Integration Act with funds collected from the owners. However, these drains, for which the owners have paid, have not been properly made and, as a result, water does not flow properly. Will the Minister concerned consider improving these drains without any extra cost, because this has been fixed by the PWD?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, there is no doubt that where work has not been properly done, it will be rectified.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (14)* has been dealt with Amendment (15), Mr Ng Kah Ting. (* See footnote, col. 760.)

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, 1 beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 52.

Sir, this subhead concerns the Serangoon Sewerage Scheme. I have just one simple question to ask of the Minister: will this Serangoon Sewerage Scheme be extended to the Upper Serangoon constituency, and ultimately to Punggol constituency? If so, when?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Punggol is going to be very disappointed. At the moment it is not likely that the sewerage scheme will be extended to the Punggol area. Under our sewerage scheme, we are undertaking to sewer the whole of Singapore in as short a time as possible. For this, we require a lot of money. It is quite costly to sewer, and we must get loans from the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (IBRD). As Members know, when the IBRD lends money for any project, it must be economically feasible. Comparatively speaking, Punggol has a lower density of population than the other areas of Singapore. Therefore, to sewer the area there is not economically feasible. I think Punggol has a very low priority in our sewerage scheme. But if something should happen, such as a major development in Punggol, perhaps this question can be reviewed. Moreover, Punggol is in a very low-lying area, and it will cost quite a lot of money to sewer such areas.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, on the last note of the Minister concerned, I mentioned just now that the Housing and Development Board is at the present moment building more than a thousand flats in that part of Punggol, along Tampines Road. And next to this Housing and Development Board project, there is a major scheme going on because an area of not less than 60 acres have already been acquired. I believe one-third of it is under construction at the moment.

Mr Lim Kim San: If that is so, there is hope for him, but I cannot tell him definitely whether this is in the Punggol area. I have not been there. But where the Housing and Development Board has a housing project, there is sewerage.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, in that case, I must say that the Minister has been misinformed. That part of Tampines Road definitely comes under Punggol area, because I happen to live there, and I am also required under Acquisition order to move.

The Minister may say that Punggol rates very low in priority for a sewerage scheme. All I am asking is: when will this sewerage scheme be extended to the Upper Serangoon constituency, in which there is a great deal of development going on, and whether it will ultimately extend to Punggol constituency?

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not good at working out time-tables. But if he says that there is going to be development there, so be it. There will be sewers. I hope that will satisfy him. And if he says that that part of Tampines is in Punggol, well, he lives there and he knows better.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: On that note, Sir, may I thank the Minister for his patience. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (01) of subhead 58.

Mr Speaker, Sir, only a few residents of wooden houses in Kampung Pachitan have been notified that the sewerage scheme, now being carried out in Lengkong Tiga, would be extended to their homes. These are houses sited close to the main sewers. However, many other residents in the Kampung Pachitan area have not been given such notices.

I would like to know from the Minister whether these few residents, who have been so notified, could be exempted from payment of sewer connection fees.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is true that only a few of the residents in front of Lengkong Tiga have been asked to install modern sanitation, while quite a large number of the others have not been asked to do so. This is because the sewerage system only goes as far as the front of these few houses. However, whether you install it now or later, it is ultimately a question of time. But as far as the installation is concerned, I will not press the point. I would only say that if I were the owner or if I were the tenant, since there is the opportunity for me to get a connection to the sewage system, I may as well take advantage of it. It will probably be cheaper to do it now than five years later.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, the question is that the land does not belong to them. They only rent the premises. Therefore, if they were to install modern sanitation, it will cost them thousands of dollars. And later if the landowners decide to take back the land, they would suffer a loss.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, as I have said, I will leave the option to them.

Tuan Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): With this explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $53,141,850 for Head 0801 ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $36,194,100 for Head 0801 ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I propose to take the Suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting now and shall take the Chair again at 4.45 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.14 p.m. until 4.45 p.m. Sitting resumed at 4.45 p.m.