MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1974 TO 31ST MARCH. 1975

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [3rd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

3.06 p.m.

Head HE --

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy-

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head HE be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1107.

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy is not here. Mr N. Govindasamy, amendment No. (2).

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head HE be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 3004*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ng Yeow Chong.)

Sir, I have moved this amendment in order to seek clarification and also to get information. Under the Development Estimates, $310,000 is to be set aside for new post offices. My query is, where are these post offices to be located? To be more specific, is there provision for a new poet office in Telok Blangah New Town? The Telok Blangah constituency has no post office at all. With the completion of the first phase of the Telok Blangah New Town project, hundreds of families have moved in, and 500 new housing units will be balloted on 4th April this year. Phases 2, 3 and 4 are also expected to be ready in a year or two. It is, therefore, important that a new post office be provided for Telok Blangah New Town.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, I merely wish to ask the Minister some questions concerning the provision of $310,000 for new post offices to be established during the new financial year. My questions are: first, is there provision for a new post office at the Old Kallang Airport Estate in my constituency? Second, have the officials of the Ministry of Communications successfully negotiated with the Housing and Development Board for a suitable site for this purpose? If so, where is the site? Third, what type of post office will it be? Will it be a delivery or a non-delivery post office? Fourth, will there also be facilities for a Post Office Savings Bank? Fifth, when will this new post office be ready for operations?

Sir, you will probably notice that every public housing estate is now provided with a new post office. It is for this reason that my constituents have made representation to me for a new post office to be set up in my constituency. I am, therefore, taking this opportunity to raise this matter here, and I earnestly hope for a favourable reply from the Minister concerned.

The Minister of State for Communications (Dr Ang Kok Peng): Mr Speaker, Sir, for the fiscal year 1974-75, there will be 13 postal development projects, two of which are actually carried over from last year's allocation.

The following are the places where the post offices will be located. There will be a post office in each of the following places: Old Kallang Airport Estate, Toa Payoh North, Brickworks Estate, Marine Parade, Telok Blangah, Tiong Bahru, Balestier Road, Redhill Estate, Plaza Singapura, Shenton Way, Jurong Town and Tanjong Pagar.

The post office at Telok Blangah will be a delivery type but the post office at the Old Kallang Airport Estate will be a non-delivery type.

Concerning the question from the Member for Mountbatten as to where a suitable site for his post office is going to be, he will be pleased to know that it will be at the Kallang Emporium and Hawker Centre. It will also have facilities for a Post Office Savings Bank. He will also be pleased to know that it would be ready sometime in the middle of 1974, that is, this year.

3.15 p.m.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, my constituents and I are indeed grateful to the Minister of State for this information.

However, I would like to make a further request. I wonder whether the Minister of State could look into the feasibility of setting up a delivery post office instead of a non-delivery one as proposed. In my view, a delivery post office set up in my constituency will better serve the needs of the residents in the Old Kallang Airport and Guillemard estates, as well as the Kallang industrial estate at Kallang Park and the neighbouring area. Moreover, this delivery post office will help to reduce considerably the pressure of work at the Geylang Post Office where its capacity has been overstretched.

Sir, I hope the Minister of State would take that into consideration.

Dr Ang Kok Peng: Sir, the Geylang Post Office is in a position to continue to serve the residents of the Old Kallang Airport estate and its neighbouring areas. But in future if the need warrants it, the situation will be reviewed.

Dr Tan Eng Liang (River Valley): Mr Speaker, Sir, every Member is asking for a post office. Perhaps the Minister of State has read in the newspapers about the inadequacy of the post office in the River Valley Constituency. For a business area almost in the centre of town, there is only one small post office in Killiney Road, plus another opposite the Marco Polo Hotel which is under urban renewal. There have been numerous requests in the newspapers suggesting that a bigger or an alternative post office be provided. But so far nothing has been done and I have been patient. I am just wondering whether, in this provision for a number of post offices, serious consideration could be given for the setting up of another post office in the River Valley Constituency.

Dr Ang Kok Peng: Sir, the request by the Member for River Valley will be looked into. Since he is now the Chairman of the new Urban Redevelopment Authority, we should be able to look into this problem with much ease.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, before other Members stand up and ask for post offices, let me say that I am satisfied with the post office that is to be built in Telok Blangah.

But there is one problem which has been bothering me and if you remember, Sir, I also raised it yesterday. It is in connection with the Post Office Savings Bank located in the post offices. Yesterday I asked about the need for subsidising the POSB by providing certain sums of money from public funds for the payment of incentives to induce children to save. Post offices are also providing space for the POSB. Would the Minister of State enlighten me as to whether the POSB do pay rental to the post office? Or is the POSB being indirectly subsidised from public funds by way of rental subsidy?

Dr Ang Kok Peng: Sir, the post office does not subsidise the POSB. They will be paying their share, and they will also be paying their own counter staff.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, with that explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $27,820,350 for Head HE ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $635,000 for Head HE ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates. Head HF --

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head HF be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1109*. (*The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Teong Eng Siong, J. F. Conceicao, Chin Harn Tong, Sia Khoon Seong, P. Govindaswamy and Ivan Baptist.)

In moving this amendment today, it is not at all my intention to flog the dead buses, especially after the banner headlines that the Minister for Communications got in today's newspapers of his pledge on the buses. However, Sir, you are aware that this issue was debated under the Minister's subhead which should really have been on the policy of the Communications Ministry. The guillotine time this year has been very, very sharp, and the Minister did not really have sufficient time to say all that he wanted to say about the buses. He said yesterday, if I remember correctly, that he would have something more to inform the House in respect of public transport in Singapore, when this subject comes up for debate under the Head, Registry of Vehicles. This amendment of mine, therefore, is moved in order to provide the Minister with the opportunity.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Sir, under this amendment, since the Minister for Communications is not here, I would like to ask the Minster of State two questions. The first is on the question of smoky exhausts of taxis and, second, on taxi stands.

Sir, I have received many complaints from taxi drivers who complain that they arc receiving summonses from the Registry of Vehicles about the smoky exhausts of their taxis and the fine is usually about S50. It is a heavy burden on them. They have a very limited monthly income. After paying the instalments and fuel costs, whatever is left is very limited, about $200 to S300. They have to support their families with this meagre income and it is not easy to do so. As a result of the endless summonses they receive and the fines imposed on them, they are in a very distressed position. Because of this, I realise that many taxi operators have resorted to getting loans from moneylenders at high interest. They are indebted and they deserve our sympathy.

Taxi drivers have also complained to me that they have frequently been summoned to the ROV for inspection of their taxis by ROV officers to see whether the engines are in order and whether there is any emission of smoke from the exhausts. These taxi drivers told me that they have to send their taxis to the ROV and it takes about one day for the inspection to he carried out. In this way, they lose one day's income. I do not understand why the inspectors at the ROV resort to this sort of surprise inspections. According to the regulations, all taxis have to he inspected every six months before they are allowed to ply on the roads. If there is any fault with the engine, it has to be repaired before approval is given for it to ply on the roads. Since taxis are inspected every six months, I do not see any reason why taxi drivers should be asked to send their taxis to the ROV for another inspection. This only results in the taxi drivers losing a day's income.

My second point is with regard to the setting up of more taxi stands. Because of the drawing up of the special bus lanes, the taxi stands along many roads have been abolished. For example, along Robinson Road, Bras Basah Road, and Beach Road, the taxi stands have been removed and the taxi drivers are experiencing difficulty in getting a place to park their taxis. I would like the Minister to consider whether it is possible to allow taxis to make use of the bus lanes to allow them to drop or pick up passengers. Since taxis are also a kind of public transport and they also provide an important service to the people, I think it is only reasonable that they should be allowed to use the bus lanes for the passengers to alight or to get in.

Another point concerns the setting up of a taxi stand at the cable car terminal at Jardine Steps. I have received a complaint from the Taxi Drivers Association that it has applied to the Car Parks Division of the Ministry of National Development for permission to park taxis there. The application was recommended by the Association hut it was refused by the Port of Singapore Authority because the area comes under the jurisdiction of the PSA. Since the PSA is also under the Ministry of Communications, I would like the Minister of State to take note of this complaint by the Taxi Drivers Association and to direct the PSA to reconsider the application for parking facilities at the cable car terminal. Many people go to the cable car complex and many taxis are plying at the terminal. If we do not provide taxi drivers with taxi stands, they will not be able to park their taxis. They will have to park along the roadside, which will lead to traffic congestion. For this, they will he ticketed by the Traffic Police, causing an additional burden on them. So I would urge the Minister to consider their case in a sympathetic manner.

3.30 p.m.

Mr Chin Harn Tong (Aljunied): Mr Speaker, Sir, it is with regret that I rise to voice my criticism of the Registry of Vehicles. Having been closely associated with the ROV, I understand and appreciate the difficult working conditions of its officials and their inability to change or regulate such working conditions. But, nonetheless the shortcomings of the ROV are too painfully obvious. It is my hope that the powers-that-be who are in a position to change or regulate the working conditions in the ROV would take note of not only the shortcomings but also the underlying cause of such shortcomings.

There are, for example, many things which, in my view, the ROV can do or refrain from doing so as not to make life unduly difficult for all persons seeking to earn a livelihood as taxi drivers. Take the matter, for example, of the badges which all taxi drivers must carry on their person to identify themselves as licensed taxi drivers. They are required to pin their badges on their shirt-fronts. As I see it, the badges are worn for two purposes: one is to assist enforcement against unauthorised persons driving taxis; the other is to enable passengers to identify taxi drivers who offend them. None of the two purposes seems to have been achieved. A taxi driver's badge does not in itself indicate a particular person is so entitled to wear it. The ROV enforcement officer has to check the identity card of the person wearing it with the record kept in the office to confirm whether the wearer is so authorised to drive a taxi. With several thousand taxis on Singapore roads at any one time of the day and with more than 15,000 taxi drivers on record, enforcement by the ROV has been practically reduced to the ritual of enforcing the wearing of badges of taxi drivers. Similarly, with the taxi drivers wearing badges on their shirt-fronts, it is difficult for passengers in the back-seat of taxis to read the badge number, particularly so at night. Experience has shown that complaining taxi passengers invariably identify the taxis rather than the taxi drivers. Instead of requiring taxi drivers to wear badges, I would suggest that every taxi driver be issued with an identification card, similar to but larger than the laminated plastic identity card, bearing the photograph, name and identity card number of the driver. This identification card should be slotted into a suitable holder near the taxi-meter, and illuminated at night so that the identification of taxi drivers for any purpose should offer no problem. The introduction of such identification card would do away with the ridiculous necessity of charging taxi drivers with the technical offence of not wearing their badges. It would also prevent unscrupulous taxi-owners from hiring their vehicles at higher rates to unlicensed persons who manage to get hold of badges to wear.

It is too often easily forgotten by those persons responsible for enforcing law and order that they themselves can also be responsible for public disrespect towards law and order. Disrespect is created when the manner of enforcement makes a mockery of law and order. Take, for example, the prosecution of taxi drivers for smoky exhaust. Any failure to maintain engines resulting in the unnecessary pollution of the atmosphere should, by all means, be severely prosecuted. There has been an increasing tendency, however, for summonses for smoky exhaust to be indiscriminately issued. It seems that if a police officer on duty spots what seems to be a smoky exhaust, he issues a ticket to the driver of the offending taxi, requiring him to take the vehicle straightaway to the ROV depot for compulsory test for smoky exhaust.

Now, the ROV Department is one of the busiest offices in Singapore and the ROV officials, I must state, are generally hard pressed for time. All taxi drivers dread the prospect of having their vehicles tested at the ROV depot for smoky exhaust. It means they have to be off the road for several hours, it means their earnings for that day are drastically reduced. And if they have to hire or pay instalment on their taxis, it adds to their burden. What makes it worse is that more often than not the officially conducted test conclusively proves the degree of smoke is under the acceptable level. The result of the tests is not surprising when it is considered that every taxi has to undergo a half-yearly inspection by the ROV. But the protests of taxi drivers that their taxis have undergone the half-yearly inspection the day before or not too long ago are ignored by the summoning police officer.

A disturbing thought is that all police officers must have clear instructions to disregard the fact of half-yearly inspection when issuing summonses for smoky exhaust. The ugly implication is that someone in authority has serious doubts on the integrity, honesty or competence of the ROV officials in relation to the conduct of thorough, proper half-yearly inspection and requires the police force to serve as a balance and check against the ROV. Whether I am right or wrong in my explanation of the policy governing the issue of summonses for smoky exhaust, I hope the ROV will cause to eliminate or minimise the element of human error in the issue of summonses for smoky exhaust.

It is common knowledge that human witnesses to the same event or incident are unlikely to agree in every detail on what they have seen. A police officer, who is acquainted with the principle of diesel engines, would know that all diesel engines give out smoke when starting or accelerating and would know what constitutes an unduly smoky exhaust. Another police officer may construe the slightest sign of smoke as constituting a smoky exhaust. I would, therefore, suggest that the ROV conduct for all police officers a practical course of instruction on how to judge a smoky exhaust with naked eyes. As it is, prosecution for smoky exhaust is becoming more and more like persecution. In some cases, taxi drivers are asked straightaway to pay a compound fee for smoky exhaust without a test being conducted for that purpose.

There is always the danger of the routine nature of official duties making public officials indifferent to the effect of any exercise of their powers. Such danger is illustrated by the reaction of the ROV officials to the handing in of lost property by taxi drivers. They ask harassing questions of taxi drivers such as, "Why did you allow passengers to leave their belongings behind in your taxi?" "Why did you not unwrap the parcel to check whether the contents are valuable?" The impression created is that the ROV does not wish to encourage taxi drivers to return lost property, presumably because of the additional work it entails for the ROV staff. It also probably explains why summonses are issued to call in taxi drivers for routine clarification in respect of lost property previously handed in. The effect on taxi drivers on being served with summonses is demoralising. Their first thought is that their exhaust is smoking too much and they have to spend hard-earned cash on unnecessary repair or adjustment before keeping their appointment with the ROV. The question is why do the ROV officials, who by now must be aware of the unpleasant effect of summonses on taxi drivers, continue to use summonses for this purpose? If they must do so, why cannot they clearly spell out the purpose of the Summonses? I would hate to conclude that the ROV officials are showing a could-not-care-less attitude towards taxi drivers. But it helps to explain why some taxi drivers hand over lost property to newspaper offices where they can expect, as least, appreciation.

Perhaps the ROV officials, in common with other public officials, have good cause for their apparent impatience with and suspicion of members of the public whom they come into contact with in the course of their duty. It explains why the officials seem reluctant to consult members of the public before making decisions greatly affecting the public. Take the matter, for example, of the adjustment to the taxi-meters following the recent decision to revise the taxi-fare for the first mile. The ROV officials were satisfied with consulting only six taxi-meter repairers. In return for their undertaking to adjust the meters of 5,000 taxis in Singapore in two weeks, the ROV agreed that any adjustment of taxi-meter must be carried out within the specified period of two weeks and that the recommended rate be $40 per meter. Strong objections were raised by taxi drivers to both the limited period for adjustment and the recommended rate. Once the ROV was convinced that the period is too short, and the restriction to only six specified workshops is unreasonable, the market rate for adjustment of taxi-meters drops down to less than one-third of the recommended rate. After all, adjusting a taxi-meter does not require more than 15 minutes. The ROV officials would never have allowed themselves to be misled by the workshop-owners if they had bothered to consult the other interested parties, that is, the various organisations representing taxi drivers.

The Chairman: Order. Mr Chin, your ten minutes are up. Mr Sia.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Sir, traffic congestion is a daily problem during the peak hours. It has been the order of the day in Singapore these days.

With the recent introduction of bus lanes buses are supposed to speed up the travel of bus commuters. Has it helped in any way, or has the congestion in the other lanes prevented buses from leaving the bus lanes? If it has improved the traffic flow, has the ROV any intention of introducing more bus lanes along all major bus routes? One setback against this new bus lane is that when the traffic lights change to green, cars which are turning left have to give way to the buses that are passing through the bus lanes. This results in a stretch of other vehicles coming to a standstill, until the car in front has moved off. Furthermore, cyclists find it risky to ride between the buses and the other vehicles. What action has been taken to remedy the situation?

Mr Ivan Baptist (Potong Pasir): I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Sir, I rise to support the Member for Aljunied, particularly on the point he has made concerning the delay on the part of the ROV in checking smoky exhausts. This applies not only to taxis, but lorries as well. In the case of lorries there is also the problem of checking on overloading. Once a lorry is suspected of overloading, it is ordered to go straight in for checking. In a particular case, I was told that this poor person pleaded with the staff of the ROV to speed up the checking so that he could go and deliver the goods to the port, for loading on a ship which was due to sail that very night. But this request was even not granted.

Sir, I think this is an area where it would seem to me that there is a complete lack of sympathy and sensitivity for people involved. The lorry was detained. That was fair enough. They even went to the extent of withholding the driver's licence. I cannot see what it has got to do with lorry drivers, because the lorry owner is a different person altogether. The driver is paid on a daily-rated basis. Once you detain his licence, he cannot work.

3.45 p.m.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, I refer to the statement made by the Minister yesterday that he would give an assurance that every possible measure would be taken to ensure the SBS would provide an efficient bus service for the commuters in Singapore. In this connection I would like to ask the Minister a few questions.

The Minister has stated that a sum of approximately $1.2 million was awarded by the SBS to a local workshop to repair the 400 buses that were rendered unserviceable. May I know from the Minister who are the owners of this workshop? Is the workshop competent enough to handle this gigantic task? In other words, does this workshop have the necessary equipment and skilled personnel to perform the necessary repairs to ensure that the buses are put on the road with the minimum of delay?

The other question is: will possible abuses lead to kick-backs for directors of the SBS, in so far as they have a financial stake in this repair workshop or in any company that builds bus chassis, or in any spare-parts supply shops, or fuel oil supply distributors?

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (Tiong Bahru): Mr Speaker, Sir, I raised a question here yesterday concerning the setting up of the motor insurance bureau, but it was not answered. Perhaps it was due to the heated debate on the bus services. May I raise it again and ask the Minister when will the motor insurance bureau become a reality? I am very concerned about this matter because I read in the newspaper today that another victim has just been awarded by the High Court a sum of approximately $110,000 as compensation. I just wonder whether he can really get this money.

Dr Ang Kok Peng: Sir, I will first respond to the invitation from the Member for Telok Blangah to answer questions raised under Head HA which should more appropriately be tackled under the present Head.

The Member for Bras Basah suggested that a referendum be held on whether the bus service should be handled by Government or be left in the hands of a private organisation. We are not in Britain and we are not thinking of joining the Common Market. Therefore we are not contemplating a referendum of that nature. I do not think that the matter of the bus services warrants a referendum.

There were various comments on the poor management of the SBS. The SBS is currently engaging some consultants to assist it in modernising its management, including the computerisation of the various aspects of management, the scheduling and maintenance of buses, inventory control for spare-parts, and other matters. It is also in the process of appointing a Personnel Manager to look after the Personnel Section, and also a Public Relations Officer to work more closely with the public.

There is also a suggestion from the Member for Moulmein that Government should develop expertise in the running of the bus transport services. You will remember, Sir, that the Minister for Communications has previously announced that the BSRC, i.e, the Bus Services Reorganisation Committee, and the BSLA, the Bus Services Licensing Authority, are keeping a close supervision on bus operations, and in doing so they are acquiring the necessary expertise.

Some Members have suggested better working conditions for the bus workers. SILO, which represents the bus workers, is constantly working to improve the working conditions of the bus workers. I would like to assure hon. Members that the Ministry is always in sympathy with any measure taken to improve the working conditions of bus workers. Steps are also being taken to install canteen and toilet facilities at all major bus termini. Furthermore, with the implementation by the SBS and SILO of an incentive scheme effective from January, 1974, whereby $� million would be paid every quarter to courteous and effective bus crew members, there should therefore be considerable improvement in the morale and in the performance of the bus workers.

The Member for Telok Blangah suggested the use of automatic transmission and power steering. Introduction of automatic transmission and power steering has been considered, but it was found too expensive for introduction at this stage. However, he will be pleased to know that power steering is now part of the standard equipment of the new buses that are being introduced.

The Member for Telok Blangah also suggested that some relief or soft loans to SBS be considered to enable SBS to purchase new buses. The need has not arisen as SBS has no problem in getting the necessary finance for the purchase of new buses.

There was also a suggestion that notice boards displaying bus routes be put up at bus termini and at bus stops. This matter is actually in the process of being implemented at the major terminals, and at a later stage will also be implemented at major bus stops. At the moment the buses do carry route numbers and destination points. I can assure Members that other measures will be introduced for the greater convenience of commuters in due course of time.

The Member for Jurong asked whether it was fair to use taxpayers' money to provide bus lanes for buses only. I presume that the Member is assuming that bus commuters are not taxpayers as well. The purpose of the reserved bus lanes is to provide a smooth flow of bus traffic in order that large groups of people can travel speedily from one destination to another in the course of their daily activity during peak hours. This is vital to the economy of our country. It is, therefore, a proper use of public money to reserve bus lanes for buses during peak hours, and besides the bus lanes are only operative during a few hours each day.

As to the suggestion that the punishment of confiscation of vehicles on the third offence is too severe, I would like to say that it was considered a necessary deterrent in order to ensure that bus lanes are free for smooth flow of bus traffic during peak hours. Otherwise the purpose of bus lanes would be defeated.

The Member for Jurong also raised the question of a minimum fare of 10 cents instead of 20 cents. I would like to refer him to two previous statements released by the Ministry on the 3rd and 20th February, 1974, where adequate reasons were given. And only a few days ago, the Minister for Communications also touched on this point in his reply to an Oral Question. I need not elaborate here.

The Members for Sembawang and Jurong also suggested the use of 14-seater mini-buses. I am not quite sure whether they mean just the participation of these buses in the supplementary transport service which we have at the moment, or they are thinking of an entirely new supplementary transport system involving 14-seater mini-buses. At the moment we do have a few small buses taking part in the supplementary transport system, and the possibility of using a different system of 14-seater mini-buses for passengers commuting within five miles of the City centre will be referred to the BSRC for their consideration.

The Member for Aljunied mentioned that there was only one qualified engineer and a few assistants to service a fleet of 2,000 buses. This is only partly true. The SBS has one qualified engineer but a very large number of technical assistants to help in the maintenance of a fleet of 2,000 buses. Furthermore, SBS also contracts out work to motor workshops for repairs and' other services. At the moment, 37 trainees are undertaking a special training scheme organised by SBS in conjunction with the Industrial Training Board, the ROV and SILO, and they are on a three-month attachment to Progress Motors and Cycle and Carriage, which are the main suppliers of buses to SBS.

The Member for Potong Pasir asked whether monthly tickets could be obtained at other places besides Changi. The Member will be pleased to know that SBS is getting some expert advice on a programme for wider distribution of such season tickets.

The Member for Tiong Bahru asked when the motor insurance bureau would be set up. The present position is that discussions on the setting up of a motor insurance bureau have been going on for quite some time between the Insurance Commissioner and the insurance industry, and they are now reaching the final stages of their discussions.

Sir, if I may come back to some of the questions raised just now. Regarding the fines imposed on taxis with smoky exhausts, I would like to inform Members of the House that the fines are imposed by the Traffic Police. As taxis are public service vehicles, it is necessary to ensure that the vehicles are properly maintained and kept in good working condition. For this reason, half-yearly inspections for any mechanical deficiency or body defects are being made. These measures are taken to ensure that the vehicles are in a roadworthy condition. On the question of surprise inspections of smoky exhausts, this is done to make sure that vehicles are maintained in good condition at all times, and not just for the sake of having them checked. Therefore, it is necessary that inspections on the spot should be made besides this half-yearly inspection.

4.00 p.m.

If the Member for Aljunied has any definite case of intimidation or undue harassment of taxi drivers, I would be pleased to look into the matter. However, I can assure him that the officers are only doing their duty, not for any other reason but to ensure that these vehicles do not emit excessive smoke from their exhausts.

There was also a suggestion by him that taxis should be allowed to use bus lanes either to drop or to pick up passengers. This request cannot be granted because it would defeat the very purpose of creating bus lanes which is to expedite the movement of buses during the peak hours.

He also said that taxi stops along certain bus routes have been removed to make way for bus lanes. In actual fact, taxis are shy of the Central Business District during peak hours because, finding the traffic a little heavy there they would not be able to make as many trips as they would have liked. Concerning the taxi stands at the terminal for cable cars, we will look into this matter. If there is space or if there is a need for it, then there might be a possibility of putting up a taxi stand there.

The Member for Aljunied has suggested that the ROV issues identification cards with photographs and names of taxi drivers. I think this is a good suggestion and we will look into it. And if he can also provide me with definite cases where the ROV discourages taxi drivers from returning lost property or creates undue hindrance to their wish to have lost property returned, I will personally look into the problem.

Concerning the taxi-meter adjustment, originally six workshops were included in the list of workshops where taxi-meters can be adjusted in connection with the revised taxi fares. Members may wish to know that these six workshops were the workshops that the taxi drivers had patronised in the past in the previous meter adjustment exercise. Therefore, they were automatically included in the list. The introduction of a schedule for the adjustment of meters was necessary in order to have an orderly process for the inspection of these adjusted meters. Later, more workshops were included in the list because the six workshops were charging $40 per meter adjustment, and the taxi drivers thought that was too high. The reason for charging $40 was that the workload was such that it was necessary to employ skilled workers to work over-time in order to make the necessary adjustments within the scheduled time. However, the schedule has been relaxed and more workshops have been included in the list and, I am sure, this problem has resolved itself satisfactorily.

The Member for Jalan Kayu has raised the question of delay in the examination of vehicles for exhausts and for overloading. If we do not have as many vehicles emitting black smoke as we have now, the workload would have been less and speedier examination could be carried out. But if there is any case where undue delay has come to his attention, I would be much obliged if he would refer the case to me.

On the question of the vehicles turning left, which was raised by the Member for Anson, the Member's problem is the difficulty of cars turning left when there is a bus lane on the left-hand side. He will notice that all the bus lanes end at a certain distance from a road junction or where there is a slip-turn. Therefore, a little bit of care need to be exercised before he makes the necessary turn.

The Minister for Communications (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): Mr Speaker, Sir, as I happened to be in the House when the Member for Toa Payoh raised his questions, perhaps I can now take over from my Minister of State and answer the two points raised by him.

Firstly, the name of the private motor repairer responsible for repairing 400 buses of the SBS is the Singapore Automotive Engineers, which is a subsidiary of MINDEF. At the time when they signed the contract, they were not aware that the 400 buses would be in such a bad state that it would take a very long time to repair them. So up to the moment I believe they have been able to repair only 50 buses, although they had hoped to be able to repair the 400 buses by April of this year. I think, in a previous Oral Answer, I had indicated that it might take a bit longer for the 400 buses of the SBS to be repaired.

As to the second question about various connections of repairers with the SBS directors, etc., I am afraid, Sir, he is anticipating a question which the Member for Kallang has tabled for answer on Monday. Instead of repeating answers to Members, perhaps he could be a little bit more patient. It will be on Monday, the 25th, only a few days from now, when I will answer the Member for Kallang.

Sir, I promised hon. Members, who were present in this House last night, that I would be making a policy statement today, with a new angle on reorganisation of Road Transport, other than on buses, on which subject many have agreed that there is already an overdose, with hon. Members repeating tediously what had been said earlier -almost like flogging a dead horse.

Before proceeding, however, with my new subject, may I be permitted to place on record my appreciation for the patience, understanding and maturity of our long-suffering bus commuters and that I pledge to put our public bus service right, soonest possible.

When the Singapore Bus Service Ltd (SBS) buses operated on Sunday, 10th February, 1974, without any incident whatsoever, the day the revised bus fares came into operation, Singapore stood proud by its people, especially the hundreds of thousands of bus commuters in having to pay more when the bus services as operated by SBS fell short of expectations, especially during peak periods, without resorting to riots or burning of buses which irate commuters elsewhere do when fares go up, be it in Hong Kong, or cities in India or Pakistan. Ours are a law-abiding people.

Since we became independent in 1965 (nine years ago), we as a people have been constantly learning the hard lesson that nobody owes us a living, that nothing is for free, as being without any natural resources but human resources we have to work hard, to earn our keep and pay for everything we need, even necessities for life, like food, water, clothing, transport, etc. Water is for free. When the rain comes, you could open your mouth and drink it. But you still have to pay for water because it has got to be processed, and millions of dollars have to be spent on this.

Bus commuters are in the best position to know how the rising cost of living over the past year has eroded into their daily or monthly income and are, therefore, able to understand and sympathise with the plight of 9,000 workers of SBS who have to perform a hard and onerous job and hard-put to provide for their families, under trying conditions. It was, therefore, my first concern to ensure that SBS must improve on the terms and conditions of its workers even before SBS started operations on 1st November, 1973. I can now disclose that SBS was not prepared to make any wage increase in November, 1973, because that would immediately put its operations in the red. But I advised and prevailed on SBS to make the gesture of a wage increase, so that its workers can see that they are benefiting materially with the formation of SBS. We must first raise morale before we can enforce discipline and call for better performance from workers. That was how the 60 cents per day increase came into effect on 1st November, 1973, besides an incentive scheme costing SBS a further sum of $1 million per annum to be operated by SILO, on behalf of the workers.

4.15 p.m.

Then came the $25 per month additional wage supplement recommended by the National Wages Council, which was made applicable to SBS workers as from the 1st of February (last month), and I am pleased to hear from none other than the General Secretary of SILO, a valuable member of the Bus Services Reorganisation Committee and Member of Parliament for Boon Teck, who confirmed at a television feature one week ago and yesterday in Parliament that SBS workers, on the whole, have been given a very good deal in that with the formation of SBS, each worker got no less than $40 per month extra, all within a short space of four months, which is not what other workers in Singapore can hope to expect.

Now that the BSRC will monitor and supervise the operations of SBS, it is my confident hope that the public bus service will be seen to improve with time, as we tackle other aspects of Road Transport reorganisation, in earnest. New hornets' nests will be stirred! In what direction will this arise? Increasing restraints on the use of 137,000 private cars during peak hours and that is what I wish to dwell upon at some length, now. And Members will be speaking on their own behalf after this.

In an earlier Oral Answer in this House, I had indicated that any attempt to improve our public bus service cannot be successful, if made in isolation, and we must at the same time tackle the problem of increasing traffic congestion. The formation of the Road Transport Action Committee (RTAC) in November last is the weapon to ensure high priority for the public bus service on our limited road space and to launch a multi-pronged attack on traffic congestion.

What is the problem we have to overcome? To resolve our traffic problem let us identify it first, which we have. I can do no better than to provide this House with a diagram of the peak-hour travel pattern (typical of a week-day) which exists in Singapore today. I shall now hand over to the Clerk of Parliament copies of the diagram* for distribution to Members. (* See Appendix, cols. 525-6.)

Total Transport Trips by time of day (Cols. 525-526)

[Copies handed in to the Clerk and distributed to Members.]

The diagram in Members' hands was produced by our Mass Transit Study Unit and forms part of the many diagrams attached to the draft Final Report (June 1973) of the Singapore Mass Transit Study, Phase I, which I had occasion to refer to yesterday.

As the saying goes, "A picture speaks more than a thousand words". Most cities of the world have only two peak-hour travel periods (morning peak from 7 to 9 a.m, and the evening peak from 5 to 7 p.m.). We in Singapore have three peak periods, i.e, the addition of a midday peak because most of our primary schools operate on two sessions-morning and afternoon.

This diagram of Total Transport Trips by time of day made up of work trips, school trips and other trips was drawn up after the State and City Planning Department carried out a survey to determine household trip-making characteristics of 12,500 households over a period of six months in 1968.

The traffic jams and frustrations we face in Singapore today are essentially those encountered during peak-hour travel. Unless changed, which we have decided will be done and the sooner the to determine household trip-making more congestion on our limited road space. The business and industrial activities on which we depend for our livelihood would then be forced to a slower and slower pace, ultimately coming to a grinding halt.

The costs of travel will also increase if trips made during peak-hour periods are not reduced. These costs, which we shall call "traffic congestion costs", cost to the individual such as increased cost of operation and increased stress and emotional tension, and social costs like air pollution, accidents, noise and the undesirable aesthetic effects of congested streets and parking. Therefore, to resolve our problem of traffic congestion, we need to attack the problem along two fronts: -

(a) to spread (and thus reduce) peak-hour travel demand, and

(b) to reduce the number of private vehicles on the roads during peak hours.

Peak-hour travel demand can be reduced if all trips, other than work or school trips are made outside the peak periods. One way of spreading peak-hour travel is by introducing staggered working hours. From January this year, Government and Statutory Boards have introduced staggered working hours for their staff, if only for a trial period of six months. This has resulted in the following:- Working Hours: 0800 to 1630 hours ... 44% 0830 to 1700 hours ... 51% 0900 to 1730 hours ... 4% 0930 to 1800 hours ... 1% ---- 100% ====

As the civil servant population constitutes only about 10 per cent of the total working population of Singapore, it is necessary that the private sector should also adopt staggered working hours to have any significant effect.

The formation of car pools will not only save fuel but will also greatly reduce traffic congestion. This was stressed by me, Sir, at an earlier Oral Answer. The insurance industry has assured vehicle owners participating in car pools that the insurance policies would not be invalidated under the present terms of these motor insurance policies. It is now up to vehicle owners to take up this offer to help ease traffic congestion during peak periods.

Another measure which employers in the private sector can help is to arrange for group transport, like Scheme A of the Supplementary Public Transport Service (SPTS), or Adult Workers Contract (AWC) vehicles, whether of buses or lorries. Yet another alternative would be for the employers to own and operate these vehicles themselves, i.e, to form an employers' supplementary public transport service.

Measures have been and will continue to be taken to provide an adequate public bus service, supplemented where necessary with other feasible forms of public or group transport. However, a a public transport system cannot operate efficiently if it is not protected from the congestion caused by private cars in central areas, on high-density routes and in peak-hour traffic. If the traffic congestion cannot be eased through voluntary means, such as staggered work-hours and the formation of car pools, then physical constraints will have to be introduced to obtain a mandatory change. The introduction of reserved bus lanes is one step in this direction.

In plain language, the priority of movement of motor vehicles in our limited road space will be as follows: - Public Vehicles (1) Public Buses (SBS) 2,000 (2) Supplementary Public Transport - during Peak Hours only: Scheme B (PT) licences - School Buses 600* } Lorries 400 } 1,000 Scheme A - (Adult Workers Contract) 1,000* (3) School buses (include Scheme B & AWC) (say) 2,000 (4) Taxis 5,000 ------ 10,000 ====== (5) Private cars - 137,000

In other words, all the 10,000 public service vehicles responsible for group travel will be given higher priority and precedence in the use of limited road space during peak-hours over 137,000 private cars.

It has already been announced that a study is underway to consider a park-and-ride scheme, whereby commuters could park their cars in fringe car parks and take a shuttle bus into or out of the Central Business District during peak periods.

Furthermore, measures to curb the rise in private car ownership are also under study.

4.30 p.m.

We are not alone in this battle against peak-hour traffic congestion. There is an authoritative paper on the subject submitted to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), Paris, in August 1973 entitled "Automobiles and Cities - Strategies For Developing Countries" by the well-known Transport Consultant in Dr Wilfred Owen, Senior Fellow of Brookings Institution, Washington, DC. With your permission, Mr Speaker, Sir, I am making available two stencilled copies of this Study to be placed in the Parliament Library for the information of Members who are interested to learn more about this wide-ranging subject.

[Copies handed in to the Clerk.]

It was revealed in page 53 of his Study that such traffic management programmes have been initiated in many American cities. The following data show the extent of various low-cost traffic improvement programmes in 296 cities in the U.S, with population of over 50,000:- Percent of Cities with Programme Type of Programme 14 Cities All 296 with over Cities 2 million people Staggered work hours 26 36 Encouraging car pool 7 14 Banning cars from downtown 0.7 0 Increase in daytime parking rates 20 29 Reserved Bus lanes 8 50 Restrictions on kerbside truck loading 51 86 Evening truck deliveries 9 21

Before more measures are introduced to bring about a mandatory change in our travel pattern, I hope that employers, trade unions and owners of private vehicles would consider a voluntary change and to give serious thought to introducing staggered work-hours and formation of car pools. In order to encourage staggered work-hours and car pools, we are planning to launch a National Campaign to drive home the need for such voluntary restraints. A meeting will be called in July this year (after the 20 busy streets in the Central Business District have reserved bus lanes in operation) to drive home the problems associated with peak-hour travel and to actively promote the staggering of work-hours and car-pooling schemes. Representatives from Government agencies, transport operators, organisations in the private sector and road users will be invited. It is hoped this would help bring about an extensive adoption of staggered work-hours and formation of car pools in an effort to voluntarily change the pattern of present peak-hour travel and thus help reduce overall congestion on our roads.

Let us make 1974 the year in which we voluntarily make an effort to change our travel pattern - namely, to avoid peak-hour travel. Why must everybody travel at the same time? It is most interesting to watch. All of us are affected. When we have a traffic jam, we always blame the other person, "Why do you not stay away?" But we never ask ourselves: Why are we contributing to the jam and to the frustration? It is in the hands of the 137,000 private car owners to make it possible.

In conclusion, Sir, who knows, if we succeed in doing what we attempt to achieve - to reduce peak-hour travel - we may be able to reach the happy prospect drawn by Dr Wilfred Owen in his Study - page 64 - of avoiding the heavy cost of spending billions of dollars to build a subway for Singapore. I think my colleague, the Minister for Finance, will be the happiest man in-deed. Dr Owen was analysing the problem of building a subway in an oil-rich city of Caracas, Venezuela:

`The success of the subway, therefore, will depend on improved bus transport and on measures to restrict automobiles to the extent necessary to enable the feeder bus system to operate. But if it is politically feasible to introduce such restrictions with the subway, an alternative might be to restrict car use without subway. The money saved could be used to provide a system of buses on exclusive bus streets, fares could be considerably lower than for the subway, and automobiles could be confined to areas outside the centre and to off-peak hours. The cost of the subway could be avoided, and the resources used to remedy the critical housing conditions that compel one-fourth of the population to live in squatter settlements.'

Of course, Caracas may not have solved their housing problem. We, in Singapore, have, but all that money could go towards other forms of economic development and social improvement of Singapore.

Encik Abdul Aziz Karim (Kallang): Sir, the Minister has been discussing the best performance of SBS. I have harassed the Minister for Communications regarding this. I am not sorry. It was my duty, and it was his duty to reply to the questions. Anyway, the dialogue has been very valuable, and since the Minister for Communications has given a pledge that he will solve the transport problem, I believe we should all be patient and wait for the outcome of the measures to be taken.

My question is this: is it envisaged that private vehicles will be restricted or barred from entering the business centre? If so, when is it expected to be enforced? Anyway, we all have debated very thoroughly the transport situation right now, and therefore I believe we should have a moratorium. If the situation does not improve, we will continue discussing it next year during Budget time.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, I rise to seek some clarification. The Minister's statement just now arose from an amendment that I have moved. There are two points, Sir,If it is to be taken as a Ministerial statement, then perhaps we will be allowed to ask questions. But if it is going to be treated as part of the debate on the amendment, then we can open up.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: You open up!

Mr N. Govindasamy: That is right. That was just an opening for other Members to open up. One of the questions that I would like to ask is the rabbit that he pulled out of his hat just now: is it an indication as to whether we are seriously going towards MRT, or not? The way he said it by quoting the oil-rich country, Caracas, Venezuela, that by doing away with their subway they were saving the money for other purposes, are we going to do away with MRT as a result of this restriction on private cars coming into the City during peak hours? And is he trying to get away from the fact that perhaps we need MRT, if not now, in the future? Will the Minister please answer?

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: You will recall, Mr Speaker, Sir, I paid the Minister a compliment yesterday for his eloquence. Today, after listening to his statement, I must say that he is also a strategist. The restriction of use of private cars during peak hours is a fairly controversial matter. But then to introduce it after a lot of grouses from the bus commuters would put the private car owners in a spot which makes them very difficult to grouse, because they will not only be taking on the Communications Minister but the bus commuters as well. I would like to go along and see that this scheme works, for the simple reason that if this does not work worse things will come.

I would just like to say one thing about what the Minister said in the first part of his statement concerning his concern for the welfare and the well-being of the bus workers. I would like to take this opportunity, because I have never had an opportunity publicly, to bear testimony to the statement that he has made. I, together with my colleagues in the leadership of the former STC union and the Minister were very much involved in the funeral rites, so to speak, of the former STC, and the question of the plight of the bus workers in the former STC. I had the opportunity to witness the concern and plight these workers were in when they were faced with the prospect of retrenchment. For the Minister to put pressure on the Chinese bus companies to ensure their continued employment, I think, was something which nobody could see hut which meant a great deal to those workers and their families. I know the Minister will have a hard time dealing with the transport problems in Singapore. He will have brick-bats thrown at him and I would probably join others in throwing brick-bats at him on things that are not right. But my conscience will not be clear if praise is due but not given. I wish it to be placed on record that the part he played is recognised particularly by the former STC employees who secured continued employment. I have no doubt that they will share with me the sentiments I had expressed. This is the little comfort I hope the Minister will have to help him in the tough time ahead of him.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour (Mr Fong Sip Chee): Mr Speaker, Sir, being a Member on the Government side, it is extremely difficult for me to join Members, the Backbenchers, in some of the views they have expressed though I would go a small way to agree with them.

The Minister today has given a wonderful performance. The problem as I see it, Sir, is not a problem of buses, bus services or commuters. We must take the problem in a wider context. We call it a traffic problem, but some Members said it is the "transportation problem". So it is not buses or commuters. The problem is that we should dwell on it at that level. I think we should delve deeper into the problem, that is, transportation, traffic pattern, and how it affects the society and the economy. I think we should look at the question with more depth and see a little bit further beyond the horizon than the rear of the bus exhaust.

Sir, it is not without some reservation that I stand up to speak. I agree entirely with the Minister on the statistics and examples which he quoted. His officers have dealt with this matter for several years now and I was told that some of them even have got degrees on Road Engineering and Traffic. Sir, I must confess to the House that I have not got that kind of qualification, but I think that does not prevent me from speaking objectively on the problem. Perhaps a layman might be able to see the whole situation in a better light.

Some years ago, I cannot remember exactly when, I spoke briefly in this House about the question of the Mass Rapid Transit (MRT) system. Some Members think that the MRT might solve our traffic problems. Even if the MRT can solve our problem, I think it is a long-term project, because even if we approve it today in this very House, it will take a minimum of five to eight years for the whole system to be completed. By then, as the Minister has said earlier, the pattern of development, concept, principle, and data on which the MRT is mooted will be so much changed. You will remember, Sir, in the old Master Plan, the idea of the flyover from Kim Seng Road to China Street in town was first conceived as early as 1956. That flyover is not there today because the situation has entirely changed. I said sometime ago that if we want to introduce MRT it must at least conform to a few principles. I will repeat what I said earlier. It must be fast enough, it must be cheap enough, and it must not interfere with the surface traffic. It must also not be a source of pollution, whether it is noise or air.

But I would imagine, Sir, quoting the figures I gathered from the newspaper, that the MRT will cost anything between $500 million and $1,000 million. At current prices, I will put it at around $750 million, may be even $850 million. Let us take the minimum figure and, say, three years from now, we implement this system. This $500 million includes the possible fluctuation upwards in three years' time. If we put this money in the bank, we get an interest of $50 million a year. With this money, we can subsidise the bus service. We may even have air-conditioned buses. So the MRT is not the only solution.

As I said, we should look at the traffic problem as a whole, not only the bus problem. One must decide whether the bus service is going to be a service or a business proposition. It is typical of the Government, Sir, to try to strike a compromise between the two - a service, and at the same time, a viable business proposition. It is not difficult to achieve this if all of us co-operate and I urge Members of this House that in their "Meet-the-People" sessions, it is better they sound out the people, because I think that is the first salvo from the Ministry for more stringent measures to be introduced.

I had a discussion with some civil servants who are very much concerned about the transportation problem. My sample of their opinions perhaps gave me the courage to speak this afternoon. Sir, restriction on private cars travelling in the city area may well be the only solution. I would imagine, if this scheme is implemented, there would be some degree of hue and cry [Interruption]. Thank you for that - here is a Nanyang University graduate who is getting on very well with the English language.

Sir, I would imagine that some kind of fee might be imposed on cars travelling into the City centre. This might create the impression that if you can pay, you are free to go in; but if I cannot afford as I am a poor man, I am out. I think there is no intention to favour the rich, or make the rich richer and the poor poorer. If it has to be done, it has got to be done. But why do we not, Sir, in the meanwhile, maybe in the next month or two, agree to the rule that newly registered cars be automatically restricted from entering the City area during peak hours? This will not involve any cost to the Government. Perhaps the new car will have a special alphabet in the number plate, also at no cost to the Government at all. So if there is any favour, we will first favour the old rich, and the new rich may have to suffer a little inconvenience.

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): On a point of order, Sir,Is there not something in the Standing Orders saying that we should take a Suspension before 5.00 p.m.?

The Chairman: No, there is no such Standing Order.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: I will cut short, Sir, so that the hon. Member for Serangoon Gardens may present his views to the House. Sir, the Minister touched on car parks so that private vehicle owners can park their vehicles in certain areas in the periphery of the City.

The Chairman: May I remind the Parliamentary Secretary that the guillotine time for this particular Head at 5 p.m, will be applied?

Mr Fong Sip Chee: I thought it is 5.30 p.m., Sir.

The Chairman: No. That time includes the recess.

Mr Fong Sip Chee: I beg your pardon, Sir,I do not think I am being fair to the Minister for not giving him time to reply. But just let me elaborate a little on what I am going to say.

The provision of car parks at the City fringes, I think, is one of the solutions, but they should not be unimaginative, simple and plain. A car park of such nature should be a complex so that people can make use of it. Then we can encourage them to use it. So the question of a shuttle service may not even arise.

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I comment on the reply by the Minister for Communications? I think it is particularly interesting and important to note his statement that we are stirring up the hornets' nest. Members here will agree with me that hornets are not always rational. If the Minister is a hornet, and if we keep on stirring the nest, then his reaction might well be irrational. Let me give two examples of irrational action on his part. Firstly, by trying to dissuade people from owning cars. It has been well justified recently in a statement by the Minister for Finance that the tax imposed on petrol was to dissuade people from owning cars. Secondly, a 30 per cent increase in tax on car sales. Now these two measures were introduced with a view to dissuading people from owning cars. I am sure the people will use public transport if it is a good system. If we have not come to that stage, let us not at the moment proceed with irrational action, such as introducing those two measures.

Having said that, let me comment on a few other things. I whole-heartedly agree with the Minister that there should be voluntary restraint in the use of cars by cutting down unnecessary driving, particularly during peak hours which adds to the congestion. Secondly, I also agree that car pooling is something that is desirable and should be encouraged. Thirdly, is the Minister quite well aware that the third peak according to the car congestion chart is due to school children going to and leaving school at about noon time? This is something which, I think, the Ministry of Education can look into. Students should as far as possible be posted to schools within the vicinity of their homes, and not from east to west, or north to south. Otherwise, when they criss-cross, they will meet somewhere and that happens to be the Central Business District. I think this is something which can be fully considered and should be given good attention.

I believe what the Ministry of Communications can do right now is to cut down on kerbside loading and unloading. Anyone travelling in the City today at peak hours or during business hours will notice that other transport vehicles parked at the kerbside add to the horrible congestion that we already have.

As regards staggered hours, I believe the Ministry can take a more active interest in persuading the private sector to get this scheme going. Unfortunately only the Government and statutory boards have started this scheme. Before we stir the Minister further, may I seek assurance from him that he will not proceed to add new taxes on new cars, and secondly, that he shall not -

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: That comes under the Minister for Finance.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: The Minister can re-direct that suggestion to him later. Secondly, he will not impose a ban on cars entering the Central Business District until peripheral parking places are available and a shuttle service introduced in the CBD.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin rose -

The Chairman: May I remind the Minister that there are about four minutes left.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Yes, Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the hornets' nests are already stirred and some are buzzing around. And probably I may get one or two stings, that is about all. But I will proceed with what I intend to do.

First of all, Sir, I am very touched by the Member for Moulmein when he spoke on the STC collapse and the part he and I played in trying to resolve the problem. I will only say that I was just doing my duty to try to reduce hardship for the workers with the collapse of the company.

The whole purpose behind today's statement is that we want to encourage voluntary restraint, because more and more mandatory restraints are coming. So if they do not do anything about it, please do not complain.

The Member for Kallang asked when will the restriction on private car travel be introduced. We have already explained that there will be a park-and-ride scheme. It will be published. It will be discussed, and any good recommendations will be incorporated before implementation. I think that should answer most of the questions raised by the Members for Moulmein, Kallang and Kim Seng.

Lastly, the Member for Telok Blangah asked whether we are going to do away with the MRT. We have not even come to any decision about the MRT. The report has not been finalised. It has not gone up to Cabinet yet. So there is no decision yet. But we have got to remember always that even if we have the MRT, we still need to have a good public bus service.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid the Minister has not given me the assurance that I sought earlier on, i.e, no new taxes for new cars and no curb on private vehicles entering the CBD just yet.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: In respect of taxes, it is a matter for the Ministry of Finance. It does not come under the Ministry of Communications, and I am in no position to answer that. But as regards restriction on kerbside loading and unloading, that will be a matter for the Road Transport Action Committee to look into.

Mr N. Govindasamy: Sir, in view of the fact that we have not debated the Ministry of Finance yet, the Member for Kim Seng will have another opportunity. On that note I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $3,348,590 for Head HF ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $1,349,000 for Head HF ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I think this is a good time to suspend the Sitting now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at half-past Five.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.01 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head IA --

Haji Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampung Kembangan): (In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head IA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BA 1107*. (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy.)

Mr Speaker, Sir, I merely wish to know whether the campaign launched by the Ministry of the Environment to safeguard the cleanliness of Singapore and to encourage the people not to litter the streets have achieved its objective. Singapore is well-known for the cleanliness of its roads and surroundings. This opinion has been voiced by foreign leaders and tourists. They have seen with their own eyes how clean are our roads and streets.

Now, Sir, the Ministry of the Environment is launching a campaign to resite hawkers from all over the city to the various hawker centres which have been provided by the Government.

However, there is a condition that these hawkers must pay attention to personal hygiene and that the food must be clean. The campaigns to keep Singapore clean and to teach our citizens to form the habit of throwing their litter into litter-bins are now over, and we can see the results. However, Sir, recently our roads and streets are again littered with unwanted boxes dumped into refuse bins. Moreover, the refuse bins provided by the Government are old, and they are not being replaced.

I wish to know from the Minister whether our efforts to teach the people of Singapore to keep Singapore clean and to form the habit of not littering have been rewarded or otherwise.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, what efforts are being made by the Public Health Division to remove the rubbish in time? Although credit must be given for the efficient removal of rubbish for most of the City areas, the same cannot be said of the rural areas and some housing estates. Sometimes the rubbish is collected only on alternate days. Even in the City areas, certain streets are used as rubbish collection centres. These streets do not have a sufficient number of containers and, as a result, the rubbish spill over on to the roads, thus producing an excellent breeding ground for the rats and other vermin. Many of the people in some housing estates have been complaining about the mosquitoes. You will remember, Sir, the "Anti-mosquito campaign". We can revive it. The Vector Control Unit, which was so effective, has been defunct for some time. Could this unit also be revived?

I would also like to bring to the notice of the Minister the complaint that the workers who collect the rubbish from households would just chuck the dust-bins after they have thrown the rubbish into the van. After one or two months the dustbins would break. The Ministry should get the Inspectors to check on all van drivers and workers. It is very bad if the people have to buy dustbins every now and then.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong (Kim Keat): Mr Speaker, Sir, speaking of refuse disposal, some of our industries are facing the difficulty of finding suitable dumping grounds for waste disposal. At the same time, they are being summoned by the Health Inspectors for incinerating their wastes in the factory ground. The reason is that the burning of wastes, including wood and paper, is considered to be a contribution to air pollution. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether he has any plans to install public incinerators in appropriate locations to assist the sawmillers and other like industries to solve the problem of waste disposal.

The Minister for the Environment (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Speaker, Sir, it is true that once a public campaign is over, and after a lapse of time, there is slackness on the part of the public with regard to cleanliness of the environment or to prevent mosquitoes from breeding. But I would refute the suggestion of the Member for Kampung Kembangan that we are not concentrating on keeping the streets clean because we are spending time on resettling the hawkers. For his information, we try to clean the streets daily. I think we are one of the few authorities that do this. When a Street is not cleaned or when it is a bit dirty, we do send down teams of our inspectors to go on a blitzkrieg. Occasionally they may come across streets that are dirty and this is probably because the workers for that day are not available. One evidence which points to the fact that we are not slackening our efforts to keep our streets clean is the fact that during the last 12 months 20,000 persons were brought to court for littering. I think we have taken sufficient punitive action by bringing 20,000 persons to court during the course of the year.

The solution to the problem here really lies not in the sweeping of the streets, but in educating the public. In my opinion, several of the campaigns, for instance, the "Keep Singapore Green", the "Keep Singapore Clean", and the "Save Water" Campaigns, have been successful. This is because in all the statistics that we have gathered in respect of the campaigns to save water and to keep our streets clean, for instance, indications are that there has been a great improvement. But it takes time. I would say that the solution lies in educating the public, especially the younger ones, to form good habits, and not automatically throw an ice-cream wrapper or an ice-cream cup once they have finished their ice-cream. The solution rather is to inculcate in them a sense of civic consciousness .- make them think twice before throwing a piece of paper. Education takes some time to percolate through the whole section of the public. At the moment, because of the shortage of labour, we have already bought and are using 13 mechanical sweepers. Twelve other mechanical sweepers are under order. They will be here soon. I can safely say to the Member for Kampung Kembangan that there has been no let-up at all in street cleansing, and the enforcement section will continue to take action against those littering the streets.

Now to reply to the Member for Anson. He has asked whether efforts are being made by the Public Health Division to remove rubbish on time. We are making every effort to remove rubbish on time. I have here the statistics which I receive regularly. They show the number of complaints with regard -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: It is theoretical.

Mr Lim Kim San: It is not theoretical. It is practical. If the Member does not believe me, I invite him to spend one day in our Operations room. In the Operations room we receive complaints from members of the public, but because of the rising standard of cleanliness expected by the public and the campaigns that we have launched, we receive still more complaints. And when they find that their surroundings are not clean or where there is rubbish, they phone us up and tell us about it. The telephone number of the Operations room is 635111, extensions 232 and 233. If the Member for Anson thinks that this is fictitious and it exists in my imagination or in the imagination of my officers, I do invite him to spend a day there to see the volume of complaints. We have compiled statistics of these complaints and the action that follows.

The Member for Anson also asked whether we make an attempt to remove the rubbish on time. The complaints that we receive are divided into several categories. If the refuse is not collected, and people ring us up and complain, we put it under the heading of "Refuse collection". The other categories are: Mosquitoes, flies, drainage, smell, hawkers, overgrown vegetation, dumping of refuse, sewage, non-collection of night-soil, littering, dust, and so on. On the average, we receive about 400 to 500 complaints a month, the least of which is refuse collection - six. It may be that the Member for Anson came across one of those few exceptions where refuse was not collected for the day because there was a shortage of labour for that particular day or where the refuse collecting vehicle has broken down. We collect on the average 1,200 tons daily. It is normal for us to collect 1,200 tons of refuse a day. There are 260 routes all over Singapore where refuse collection is made, and the vehicles make an average of 400 trips a day. This is the volume of work on a normal day. On festival days, or particularly during the durian season, the volume of rubbish goes up to nearly 2,000 tons per day. During festival days when other citizens in Singapore are enjoying themselves, or during the durian season when they are eating and enjoying durian, the officers in the Ministry of the Environment work over-time to clear up the rubbish. Every effort is being made to see that the City is kept clean. We are one of the few authorities in the world which go out daily to collect refuse. There may come a time when because of traffic jams caused by commuters, each driving alone in one car and because of a shortage of labour, we may require the householder, as is being done in some other countries, to packet his rubbish and wait outside the house at a certain time of the day to catch the van when it passes by to put the rubbish in. If the householder is not there at that time, it is just too bad. He will have to bring the garbage back, keep it in the house, and live with the smell. We have not reached that stage yet, but we are doing everything we can to prevent this inconvenience to householders.

5.45 p.m.

The Member also spoke about over-spilling of bins. Bins are provided in markets at a central spot where the surrounding areas are inaccessible because of the narrow streets or because of bad roads. The bins provided at such places are sufficient for the normal volume of refuse. But some tradesmen Sir, tradesmen now have to pay more to have their refuse removed if it exceeds a certain volume - have surreptitiously dumped their rubbish there, and as a result these bins overspill. There were instances where we had to collect three or four times a day from one place. I would ask Members to have a look at Queen Street. Two hours after removal, all the bins are filled again. So this is not an easy job, but we are doing our best. Once we find that we have access to the roads, the bins would be removed and the normal method of collection would take place.

On the complaint of mosquitoes, I must say that everybody is complaining about mosquitoes. We must have mosquitoes in our tropical climate. We cannot eliminate them. We have anti-mosquito campaigns and, as usual, after the campaign people forget. Anyway, I am glad to inform the Member for Anson that at present the mosquito situation is under control. We make random visits to houses and to sites every month and during the last two months, the incidence of mosquito breeding has gone down. It is round about two per cent and is under control. Of course, we can have campaign after campaign. But if we have it too often and too long a period for each campaign, it becomes non-productive. And there are other departments which may also want to carry out their own campaigns.

In reply to the Member for Kim Keat as to whether we will build incinerators or provide places for people to dispose of their rubbish by burning, if he has been following the news lately he would have come across an item in the papers which states that we are building an incinerator costing about $50 million. But that apart, the question of waste disposal of sawdust from sawmills is quite a problem. Wherever possible, we suggest to the sawmillers to get together and construct an incinerator to burn their refuse without polluting the air. Actually we encourage that. In the past they had been able to get away by just throwing the sawdust anywhere. But with the setting up of the Ministry of the Environment, such liberty and freedom to pollute our environment must not be allowed.

Sir, I hope I have answered all the questions raised.

Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, I agree with the Minister for the Environment that it is important to educate our children to form the habit of throwing litter into bins. But why is it that old and damaged refuse bins provided by the Government have not been replaced?

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, I think it is up to the householder to make good the bins that have been spoilt or destroyed. Our workers have all along been told to be very careful with the refuse bins when they do their collection. Probably in their haste to rid themselves of the dirt on the dustbin, they put it down quickly. I quite agree that there have been many instances where workers just carelessly throw the bins into the van and then throw them down again, causing damage. Anyway we are trying to instill into our workers a sense of paying more regard to the household bins. My own dustbins have also been damaged on many occasions.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Minister has asked me to go and check on one day. I would like to ask the Minister to go round one day to the area at Tanjong Pagar. The Minister is a busy man, but if he has the time, he should see the rubbish there.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, I did not invite the Member to go round checking. I invited him to spend a day in my Operations room because he says that the figures exist in my imagination. I do go round, and that is why I am able to say that in certain instances we collect rubbish three or four times in a day. And there are also places where, after collection, in two hours we find the whole place filled with rubbish. The Member is shaking his head. I can guarantee him that I will spend one day there.

Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, I refer to the dustbins which are attached to lamp posts. These dustbins, which are provided by the Ministry of the Environment, are damaged and have not been replaced.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I want the Minister to take action to clear the rubbish. That is what we want, although the explanation he has given is good.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, we are clearing 1,200 tons of refuse per day! The Member for Anson is a very hard man to convince. Here again, I would invite him to the dumping ground at Tampines to see how the rubbish is being weighed. We are doing our best to collect the rubbish, and it is 1,200 tons on the average per day. Sir, if the Member does not believe what I say, it is best for him to go to the Tampines dumping ground and watch the lorries come in. And if he can stand the stench for a day there, he will be able to check on 1,200 tons of rubbish collected daily.

Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head IA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BI 1111.

Sir, since the burial grounds close to the City have been closed, the Muslim cemetery has been shifted to Chua Chu Kang. However, the workers in charge of the grounds are the same workers who are provided with quarters in the Bidadari cemetery grounds. The Ministry of the Environment does not provide them with transport, and they have to travel to Chua Chu Kang at their own expense. With the increase in bus fares now, they have to pay more. For those who own scooters or motorcycles, they also have to pay more for petrol because of the recent increase in petrol prices. I wish to know whether the Ministry is considering providing free transport for these workers or to build quarters near their place of employment. The incomes of these workers are low.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, the workers who are being transferred to Chua Chu Kang cemetery from Bidadari have all been offered quarters, but none of them has accepted. So it is no fault of the Ministry that they are running into difficulties in going to their place of work because we have offered them quarters and they have turned down the offer. We have tried to make things easy for them but the offer has been turned down. What can we do!

Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Where are the quarters located?

Mr Lim Kim San: It is about half a mile from Chua Chu Kang cemetery.

Haji Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, with the explanation of the Minister, I wish to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Baptist: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head IA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BL 1109.

Sir, the dreaded dengue haemorrhagic fever has hit Singapore rather heavily and many needless deaths have resulted from it.

The monthly figures of DHF cases from 1969 to date, stating the number of suspected cases, confirmed cases and deaths, would give a clearer picture of the situation. I would appreciate these figures from the Minister. Knowledge of these figures would enable Government, Singaporeans, trade unions and other organisations to be more vigilant.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, much as I would like to give the figures requested for, I am afraid I cannot because, firstly, the figures are not available and, secondly, even if they are available I would request that a Question be put up for oral answer because these are too detailed. For the information of the Member, there are no figures available for the years 1969 to 1972 largely because dengue haemorrhagic fever was a non-notifiable disease then. It is very difficult to diagnose dengue haemorrhagic fever and there is no way of telling quickly whether it is really DHF or otherwise.

But to allay the Member's fears, the situation is under control. The number of incidence in January and February has gone down greatly. In fact, in February there were only eight known cases. We have come to an understanding with the authorities at the General Hospital for a standard form of diagnosing dengue haemorrhagic fever. The incidence has been brought down largely because of swing-fogging in affected areas. That is all I can say at the moment. But as far as figures are concerned, I am afraid I am unable to give the Member.

Mr Baptist: Mr Speaker, Sir, I believe that DHF can be suppressed if the mosquito population is lowered appreciably. There are various ways of diminishing the mosquito population. One of these is the oiling method. It appears, and if I am wrong I stand corrected and hope for clarification, that there has been some slackening of suppressive methods of diminishing the mosquito population by the Ministry of the Environment when they ceased oiling the construction sites. The construction sites, at the present moment, are being oiled by the contractors themselves. This is far from satisfactory because the contractors, not being directly involved in public health, do not have the know-how and have little to gain but something to lose in financial expenditure.

6.00 p.m.

Health hazards of such a potent nature in such large areas, like construction sites, should be obliterated by the Government. It is imperative that the Ministry again implements, as a matter of urgency, this oiling process in construction sites and charge the contractors for this service, and be ever vigilant in other areas of known mosquito breeding, utilising whatever methods available to curb the breeding of these pests. Would the Minister, considering that the lives of the people are precious, accede to my humble plea?

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, the most effective way of keeping down mosquitoes is to have good housekeeping. There are 500,000 homes in Singapore and if every one does his share of housekeeping, there would be no mosquitoes and there would be no complaints about mosquito nuisance.

With regard to the oiling of construction sites, under the law now every one is responsible for mosquito breeding in his home and the contractor is responsible for mosquito breeding at his work site. We tried to help before by oiling the work sites for them. But we found that as a result there was no feeling of responsibility. They became more careless, and we found that it was not possible for us to keep track and do the work for them. Arising out of this, they found that it is cheaper for them to do the oiling themselves or to get professionals to do it, than to pay fines imposed on them. I think every one of us has a responsibility to see that we do not provide the facility for mosquitoes to breed in our own home. In the same way, the contractor is responsible for the cleanliness and safety of his construction site and to see to it that there are no facilities for mosquitoes to breed. Incidentally, by the way, for the Member's peace of mind, the mosquitoes usually found in construction sites are not the type that caused dengue haemorrhagic fever.

Mr Baptist: Sir, my fears have been allayed by the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head IA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BM 1111.

Sir, the new regulations regarding handling of food is no doubt good for the health of the public, but I am afraid to say that some of the conditions are stiff and may drive many hawkers out of business. Take, for instance, poh piah and roti prata hawkers. How can a hawker preparing roti prata make this bread with knives and spoons, let alone chopsticks? Are the hawker inspectors given instructions to be lenient with such hawkers who have no choice but to use their fingers in the preparation of such types of food?

Hawker inspectors should be given a course on human relations. I have received complaints that some of the inspectors are arrogant and rude to hawkers. Some are so inconsiderate that they pick on particular hawkers and victimise them. I quote a case of a female hawker in my constituency who had been harassed and issued with many summonses by the hawker inspector, who seemed to relish his authority and uniform. The woman became so desperate that she committed suicide by jumping down from a nearby block of flats.

Sir, what steps are taken by the Hawkers Department to resite all stalls that are operating in back lanes? Nowadays we can find many of them in the lanes which are very unhygienic, with toilets sited close to the stalls and with stagnant water in the drain. Would the Department consider resiting all those hawkers in this situation as soon as possible?

Of late, there has been a move to computerise hawker licences, and the hawkers are expected to co-operate by giving their particulars to the officials concerned, or else they may lose certain benefits later on. It may end up similarly like the tenants in pre-war houses whose names were omitted for some obvious reasons during census-taking and that resulted in no priority for alternative accommodation during clearance time. Therefore, I request that ample notice and plenty of time be given to the hawkers in going about with this computerisation.

6.05 p.m.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I rise in support of the amendment moved by the Member for Anson. I think there is a lot of merit in what he said. While it is right and proper for the Ministry of the Environment to emphasise on clean and hygienic measures in the preparation of food and the method it should be served, I think a lot of consideration must be given by hawker inspectors in their inspection of hawkers for cleanliness and proper hygienic methods used for giving out food to the particular type of food that is prepared. The Member has mentioned quite rightly two items, for example, poh piah and roti prata. To insist that this poh piah seller wears gloves is utter nonsense to me. Poh piah cannot be prepared with gloved hands. On the other hand, emphasis on the use of gloves is not in itself a guarantee of hygienic preparation. A person can wear dirty gloves for the whole day, dig his nose and ears, and the pair of gloves will certainly not be hygienic. The emphasis is that the method of preparation must be hygienic. In any execution to ensure hygienic measures, the hawker inspectors should use their discretion and intelligence.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, I am aware that certain sections in the Food Ordinance do not allow handling of food with bare hands, but I have enough confidence in members of my staff to see that they enforce the law with intelligence and humanity. Of course, there are exceptions. I quite agree that poh piah and roti prata cannot be prepared other than by the use of the hands. I think we have been allowing such methods of preparation, and I am not aware that the officials of the Ministry insist on the hawkers wearing gloves. But I am sure that Members would like to see that the poh piah and roti prata that they eat are prepared by very clean hands. In fact, only last week I had occasion to come across some hawkers who, while preparing certain food with their hands, were at the same time handling dirty shillings. This is an instance of unhygienic handling of food that we want to stop or at least to teach the hawkers the correct and hygienic way of handling food. As the Member for Kim Seng has properly put it, the emphasis should be on cleanliness and not on the method of preparation.

There is the sad story by the Member for Anson about harassment by inspectors which caused a woman hawker to commit suicide. I doubt his story very much. If it were true, and if he can give me details of the case, we will see that the culprit is brought to book. To blame the hawker inspector for the suicide of that woman hawker is just like blaming the Housing and Development Board for building high-rise flats which have led to so many suicide cases. So I think it is a bit unfair.

I think the Member for Anson and hon. Members must have known that during the last few months we have been spending a lot of time and effort in resiting hawkers from the streets. Our main objective is, of course, to move all hawkers from the streets into hawker centres or appropriate buildings where they can exercise cleanliness and where they can be better supervised so that they would not dirty or clog up the streets. This will go on until all of them are resettled.

The Member for Anson need not have any fears that computerisation of hawkers' particulars would result in some of the hawkers losing their livelihood. This is just an administrative measure to use modern methods of administration and modem machines so that when the hawkers go to the Ministry for renewal of licences, it could be done quickly. This is just to speed up administrative procedure. There is nothing sinister in that.

Mr Baptist: Sir, I would like to congratulate the Minister and the Hawkers' Department for having finally implemented the Sale of Food Act to the advantage of the consumers. Now consumers can be assured that they have wholesome and healthy food.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I am glad the Minister has explained the position. After the introduction of the Sale of Food Act, I saw in the newspaper headlines "50 people affected by typhoid fever". Before that Act, nothing happened! Anyway, I beg to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head IA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CB 1109.

Sir, what remedial action is being taken to alleviate the constant floods in low-lying localities after a short shower? For example, Bukit Timah around Newton and in Thomson Road.

The water in some of the drains, especially those covered with metal grids, is not flowing properly and therefore stagnates. This results in a stinking smell, and the drains become excellent grounds for breeding mosquitoes. Furthermore, some of the canals and monsoon drains, like the one near the People's Park, are constantly giving out foul smell. This is also due to the poor flow of the water. Can something be done to ensure a proper flow of the water?

Sir, Rochore Canal has the reputation of producing the "best aroma" for residents in the area. Of late, it has acquired the ill-repute of being the cause of floods. This is because of the canal work which has been going on for the last two years. In fact, work on that canal has stopped of late. Has the contractor disappeared again? It is time something was done about this canal.

Of late, the City area has experienced freak floods - something that has never occurred before. Is this due to poor drainage in the City area, or is it caused by the filling of the sea to reclaim more land? Such heavy floods have not occurred for many years. Could it be that since we are reclaiming land from the sea, the water has no chance of flowing outward but to flow back to the land?

What has the department done to stop a recurrence of these floods? During one of these freak floods, many shopkeepers had their goods soaked with sea water, resulting in a heavy financial loss. Therefore, reclaiming land from the sea is very bad. But if the Government wants to do that, we do not want to object. It is better.

6.15 p.m.

If you stand at the Kallang Basin for one hour, you can get a terrible smell. If you inhale it, within two hours you will straightaway get high fever. I have been to that place myself, and I could not stand the smell. The Minister must do something about the drains and canals. Otherwise it will be very difficult for us to be here debating about anti-pollution and anti-mosquito campaigns. What is the use of all these campaigns if we do not do anything about drains and canals? We must do our duty. Then we can ask the people to do their part.

Mr Lim Kim San: Sir, for the information of the Member for Anson, I would like to say that regulations are not made to cause epidemics. They are made to prevent epidemics. So the occurrence of typhoid fever has got nothing to do with the regulations. In fact, if we had not been alert, the epidemic would have spread to far greater proportions.

He has asked what remedial action has been taken to alleviate the constant floods in low-lying localities, like Bukit Timah and Thomson Road after a short shower. I live around that area. In fact, I pass that area every day in the morning, evening, and sometimes at night. But I am not aware of any increase in occurrences of floods. There has not been any increase and it is largely because we have completed the first part of the Bukit Timah Flood Alleviation Scheme. So what he has come across is probably what we call a "flash flood" which occurs when there is a sudden heavy downpour. Large areas of our country have been developed. Where there was land before, there is concrete now; it is built up, and the capacity to absorb water is not there. The drains are built for normal showers just like our roads are built to accommodate normal traffic. And as peak hour traffic jams up our roads, so a heavy downpour causes "flash floods" which will subside after a short period.

Coming to the smell at Rochore Canal, I agree that this place has been famous for it for many years. Government after government had been making efforts to get rid of the smell. For his information, I would like to say that the smell is not due to poor flow of water, but rubbish thrown into the canal by careless and irresponsible members of the public, and the rubbish prevents the water from flowing. It decomposes, putrefies and the result is the smell. The Rochore Canal is a difficult canal to work on too. That is one of the reasons why many contractors have gone bankrupt or have given up their contracts half-way through because they had to work in between rising tides, and the canal being messy and dirty, they could not get enough people to work there. There was also a shortage of materials. But we have a new contractor now, and he has completed 70 per cent of the work. There is a balance of 30 per cent of the work to be done, and we hope that he will find enough workers to work in these very unpleasant surroundings and complete the contract by the end of the year. The sky may be bright, the moon may be high, but it is exactly when the sky is bright and the moon is high that we get high tides.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: When there is a full moon, there is no doubt that there is always high tide. It is not when there is a full moon that the tide is low. But on the occasion that I mentioned there was no full moon, but still the tide came and flooded the City.

Mr Lim Kim San: The tide that he mentioned was a freak tide, which is not normal. The freak tide was the highest recorded in 20 years. It was two feet higher than normal, and high tides usually occur around that time of the year. We have the spring tide around the Chinese New Year and, as far as I can remember, very high tides usually occur on the 3rd day and on the 18th day of the Chinese Moon. On these occasions a large part of that part of the town is flooded because it is just a few inches above high water level. But the freak tide that the Member referred to was so high that it even covered the breakwater. Those Members who were observant enough on that day would have noticed that it even covered the breakwater. So the freak flood that had occurred was not the result of land reclamation. It has got nothing to do with it. It is the result of some special conjunction of the moon, the sun and the earth.

Sir, I think I have replied to all the queries raised by the Member.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, regarding the flood at Bukit Timah Road, I think the Minister for the Environment is staying at Stevens Road, but he never crosses Stevens Road. He must go to Balmoral Road at the junction of Stevens Road/Bukit Timah Road. When there is rain, the flood occurs there. He has never seen that. Probably he never crosses that part of the road.

Regarding the flood which occurred last month, it has never happened before. I know because I have been in Singapore for 45 years. It is very surprising that the tide was so high. The Minister has said that it was not due to reclamation of land. But I think that most probably it is because of the reclamation of land from the sea. If you claim a part of the sea, the water cannot flow over there, scientifically speaking. There is something wrong there. I would like the Minister to look into the matter. He can get experts to see why the tide came into the land; came inside, and not that side.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I do not know whether his explanation of the water coming this side or that side is the right one. But for his information the tide that day was not only unusually high in Singapore, but it was also high all over the world. So this was a world-wide phenomenon. It was not a result of our land reclamation.

As regards the flood in Stevens Road and Balmoral Road, I know that area much better than the Member. I know from my experience that now there have been less floods there than before.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head IA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BM 300l*. (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon.)

Sir, Serangoon Gardens is improving all the time and the improvements registered of late have been the near-completion of three large private housing estates, which will bring in close to 6,000-7,000 additional residents into the constituency. I have discovered, Sir, that planning-wise there was no provision made for an additional market in these housing estates. Therefore, pressure will inevitably be brought to bear on the present Serangoon Gardens market. I do understand that there are some vacancies in the market, but I anticipate, with the large number of residents coming into the constituency, there can be scope for expanding the present market. In fact, a septic tank occupying a fairly large area of land has been demolished and there is vacancy adjacent to the present Serangoon Gardens market. I have taken up the matter some months ago with the relevant department as to the feasibility of expanding this market, but to-date, I have not heard of any development, and I will appreciate enlightenment on the part of the Minister.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng is not here. Mr Chor Yeok Eng.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment (Mr Chor Yeok Eng): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, however you look at a problem, much depends on your position. In every annual Budget, Members hope that something more can be provided for their constituencies, but the department concerned must go about it in a realistic way.

With regard to the suggestion of the Member for Serangoon Gardens just now, I would say that the expansion of the Serangoon Gardens market, according to our survey, is not an urgent problem at this juncture. At present, there are 148 stalls in this market, out of which 30 are still vacant. This goes to show that the demand for market stalls is not high. Unless all these stalls are fully taken up, we will not expand this market because this is not realistic. As to the improvement of facilities, the department concerned has always paid attention to this and, if necessary, improvements will generally be made to the existing markets.

6.30 p.m.

On the other hand, in 1972 the Government has set up a food hawker centre in that constituency. According to our understanding, many residents in the locality often go to Lim Tua Tow market to buy their daily necessities. Therefore, we are now planning to expand the market at Lim Tua Tow Road. After the completion of the expansion, it will also provide more facilities for the residents in Serangoon Garden Estate.

For the general information of the Members, with regard to the policy on the licensing of hawkers, apart from the Member concerned, I think other Members may also wish to know the licensing policy of the Hawkers Department. I would like to clarify that after the 1968-69 nation-wide registration of hawkers, bona fide hawkers based on the 1968-69 census of hawkers were issued with licences. Since June 1973, the department has not issued any licence to any out-door hawkers or to street hawkers. At the present moment, we only issue licences to hawkers in markets or in hawker centres. At the present stage, we will only consider issuing market or hawker centre licences to the following categories of people. First, those licensed hawkers affected by any government redevelopment scheme. Secondly, those who are disabled due to industrial or other accidents, because by being disabled they have lost their capacity for hard manual or complicated work and, therefore, we decide to help them by issuing them with licence for hawking. Thirdly, those who are in receipt of social welfare assistance. We hope to make them self-supporting by issuing them with hawker licences to make a living. Fourthly, those who are above 40 years old. We believe that the younger generation have undergone industrial training or other basic education and they should make use of their talent and capabilities to compete in the field of international industrial technology. They should not commit themselves to the world of petty hawking to make a small profit as their time and talent would be wasted. Furthermore, by competing in the technical field, they will contribute not only towards bettering themselves but also to the national economy as a whole. Therefore, we should encourage our young people to embark on the right path. They should not be encouraged to take up hawking as a means of livelihood just for the sake of a small profit.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for the first half of his long and lengthy answer. The second half of his reply on hawkers was unsolicited, Sir, as I did not address myself to that problem. I am also grateful for the information that Lim Tua Tow market is going to be expanded. It will serve residents in my constituency.

But an additional matter perhaps that I can raise is the nature of licences issued to hawkers in the Serangoon Gardens market. Initially, when these licences were allocated, they were allocated for certain specified purposes which it was thought could meet the need of the residents at that time: so many stalls to sell pork and so many stalls to sell such and such a commodity. The situation today has changed, and I will be happy to hear of a reassessment of the needs and a revision of the licences for specified purposes for the market.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to the reassessment of market stalls, we will reconsider the demand to readjust the need for the various stalls in many markets. The Member has said that the stalls in the market in his constituency should be reassessed. I would like to go there and find out for myself, and then liaise with him to find out what he actually needs. If there is a need for adjustment, then we will take measures to see that it is done.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, with that, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo -

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head IA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CB 3010.

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo, amendment (7).

Mr Rodrigo: I am not moving, Sir.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head IA in respect of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, I move this amendment in order to provide me with the opportunity, firstly, to point out that the Ministry of the Environment, in its short history of about a year's existence, has done a tremendous job in the promotion of a clean and healthy environment. How else can I come up with this statement during Budget time? I have said it with the most honest intention, and I think we are immensely proud of the fact that Singapore is, and it is again and again being repeated, the cleanest city in Asia, and rightly so. Much credit should be given to the Ministry of the Environment. I do not wish to dwell for long on praising the Ministry of the Environment.

I originally intended to raise certain topics but they have already been covered. I therefore intend to point out just two matters which the Minister for the Environment might like to comment. One is the hawker problem. The Minister must be well aware that at various hawker centres, particularly at night and I am sure also by day, there are inadequate provisions for ash trays, litter bins or dustbins for the disposal of all forms of waste. It is no consolation to the consumers, in going either to Hokien Street, Beach Road, or the Orchard Road car park for a meal or a bowl of mutton soup, to have at frequent times to wallow through a rather unclean path littered with food wastes, paper litter and cigarette butts. I believe the Ministry of the Environment has powers to impose upon the hawkers the obligation to provide adequate facilities for containing these wastes. I think the provision of ash trays on all the tables should be made compulsory, and certainly litter bins or dustbins should be provided. Sometimes at some of these places you can even see rats joining in the race.

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): It is a rat race!

Dr Ong Leong Boon: The second matter which the Minister might like to comment on is with regard to the division of control on the hawker population in Singapore. We all know that the hawkers are divided into two divisions, one under the Ministry of the Environment and the other under the Ministry of National Development. This division into two categories has caused a fair amount of confusion in the eyes of the public, and certainly among some Members of Parliament. Occasionally it has led to passing the buck from one to the other, so that a hawker applicant is shuttled from one to the other and back to the first. To me this is an unnecessary problem.

Thirdly, I think the division into two categories may give rise to a lack of control over a situation which I can well imagine. It is Government's policy to allow one household to own no more than one hawker stall, but it is well within their imagination and certainly very possible - in actual fact true -that some families own more than one hawker stall, one obtained from the Hawkers Branch of the Ministry of the Environment and another from the Housing and Development Board.

With these comments I would like to thank you for the opportunity, Sir.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Member for Kim Seng for his opening statement. I think my staff will be really encouraged by his expression of appreciation for the work they have done under very difficult circumstances. Members may not know that the enforcement of rules and regulations regarding the cleanliness of a place and the control of hawkers is quite a difficult and dangerous job. Members may have often heard of officers of the Ministry of the Environment being assaulted. Yesterday two of my inspectors were badly assaulted. One of them is now warded in the hospital with a broken head. This is the other side of the picture which the Member for Kim Seng should know. As far as possible, they do their work with firmness and fairness, but we do come across members of the public who take the law into their own hands. And in instances of this nature we will definitely take a serious view and those responsible will be severely dealt with.

6.45 p.m.

To come to the suggestion in regard to the provision of litter bins and ash trays at hawker centres, there are litter bins in these centres. Probably there may not be enough. But the places which the Member mentioned, especially the Orchard Road car park, are so crowded that the customers even find it difficult to pass each other, and invariably litter bins are kicked aside. On the question of ash trays, we have tried it out in the old market at Beach Road. The hawkers there were asked to provide ash trays. Members know that commercial houses have been giving away free ash trays as a form of advertisement, and they come in various sizes and various shapes. They were put there. Some ash trays were shallow and, as a result, cigarette ash was blown on to the food. And if the ash trays were deep enough, they became mini-litter bins. So it does not work. Anyway we are looking into the problem and we will be trying out a new type of litter bin where the top section is filled with sand for cigarettes. This matter is under consideration.

The Member also raised a question on the division of authority over hawkers between the Ministry of National Development and the Ministry of the Environment. It is very clear cut. Hawkers who ply their trade in Housing Board estates come under the Ministry of National Development because the housing estates are built and maintained by them. It would be difficult for another authority to go in and maintain part of the estate. Moreover, the rents collected from these estates are due to the Housing Board. Anyway, there is very close liaison between the Ministry of National Development and the Ministry of the Environment with regard to the control of hawkers. I would not say that the case which the Member mentioned where a family gets more than one hawker stall would not occur. It does occur even if control were to come under a single Ministry. Such cases do occur. But whatever it is, there is very close liaison between the two Ministries, and we have been operating this division of authority for quite some time. As far as we can see, it is working quite smoothly. Whenever they have problems in controlling hawkers and in maintaining cleanliness, they come to us and we do send reinforcements. On the question of rules and regulations governing hawkers, we try to make the same rules and regulations.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, in view of the assurance and comments made by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $60,949,880 for Head IA ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $49,094,800 for Head IA ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head JA --

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AA 1004*. (* The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs P. Govindaswamy and Lai Tha Chai.)

Sir, we know that culture and art are very important in the life of the people. Besides such necessities as food, shelter, clothing and transport, the cultural life of the people is an indispensable aspect of their lives. Culture and art are not only the spiritual food of the people but also symbols of their spiritual outlook. A country without culture and art is like a body without life. It is like living in a desert. How do we expect one to survive?

Sir, we are a newly independent country. We have many cultural traditions. Basically, if we work hard to sustain and promote the rich traditions of our various cultures, we can develop them further and so ensure that our people will be a cultured race. Just as the Minister said last week, the ASEAN countries have a rich heritage of cultures. But what have we done in the promotion of our cultures? I believe the Minister will agree with me when I say that, in the development of our cultural work, we are going about it very slowly. We are not making much headway,.

No doubt the Ministry of Culture has done something in the promotion of our cultures and art. In the last few years, for example, the Ministry has organised public art shows, public concerts, appreciation of drama, and so on. But this is not enough. There is not enough effect. On the other hand, Radio and Television Singapore has not taken a leading role in the promotion of our traditional cultures. In their broadcast programmes only some have any educational value. They are the various forums and seminars on the fuel crisis, on inflation, the presentation of the debates between the Universities in Singapore, Malaysia and Hong Kong, programmes "For the Family" and children's corner, and so on. These programmes are good and educational. However, a great majority of the programmes are meaningless slap-sticks, meaningless stories without any educational significance. Let me quote some examples. There are some programmes full of mystery and professional gamblers who teach us how to swindle our way through various situations. And there are also some stupid comedies. The content of these programmes is not right. There are supposed comedies all of which are nonsensical and without any educational significance. This will be a stumbling block in our effort to build a healthy culture and will be an unhealthy influence on our young people.

Sir, I notice that the Minister has often emphasised the need to build a healthy and cultural life so that our people will be good and have a healthy outlook. But I am afraid the people in charge of these television programmes have not implemented these policies properly. In order to further promote the cultural arts, I would like to suggest the following measures:

(1) We should promote healthy cultural activities on a large scale. For example, we should periodically hold cultural festivals. In these festivals we can allow a rich intermingling of the various songs, dances and dramas of the various cultures. If we do this, we will provide an opportunity for the various cultural workers in the various language streams to come together and develop the cultural activities more fully.

(2) We should set up a cultural committee to supervise the content of the programmes on television and radio to ensure that the programmes will play a greater role in education.

(3) We should promote and finance activities in the schools and in the various organisations so that they can organise more cultural programmes. In the hiring of the National Theatre, they should be given cheaper rates as an incentive.

(4) We should adopt more stringent measures on suppressing yellow culture. We have to ensure that our young people grow up in a healthy environment.

Sir, I would now like to raise a second point. This is in regard to the question of colour television. Last year when Parliament was debating the policy of Government, the Minister informed the House that colour television would be introduced this year. This year will herald in the era of colour television. I would like to ask the Minister as to what progress has been made. How far has preparatory work been done for the introduction of colour television? When will the official commencement date be?

The third point is in regard to cultural delegations which are sent abroad. In the last two years, we have sent cultural delegations to friendly countries for visits. The aim was to introduce our cultures to other countries so that those countries could better understand the development of our country. Sending such cultural delegations and missions have advantages in many respects. We can only improve the cultural intercourse between countries. We can also improve the friendly relationships between countries. In addition, it will provide our cultural workers with a great incentive and encouragement to continue working in their respective fields in order to bring forth shining and glorious recognition of their work. I would therefore like to ask the Minister what plans are afoot to send further cultural missions overseas. I think that the sending of cultural missions overseas is both significant and meaningful.

7.00 p.m.

The fourth point is related to a symphony orchestra for Singapore. I had brought up this question last year. At that time the Minister's reply was that he was prepared to consider this suggestion. Now, after a year has elapsed, I would like to ask the Minister what has he done in respect of this suggestion. Or has he completely forgotten about it?

The fifth point is a question of helping and assisting local writers to publish their works. I had similarly raised this matter last year. The Minister at that time said that it was a good idea. Again, a year has passed, and I would like to ask the Minister what has happened to this suggestion. Has he provided any assistance to local writers to publish their works?

The sixth point concerns the question of punctuality. Sir, in our call on our people to economise and to be thrifty, I think we should also conduct a campaign on punctuality to cut down the waste of time. We should spend our precious time in productive and constructive work. Since we have conducted various campaigns on Health, Save Water, Keep Singapore Clean, and Keep Singapore Green, I think there is need for a campaign on punctuality to encourage people to be more punctual. I hope the Minister for Culture will assume the supervisory role in making people realise the importance and the advantages to be obtained by being punctual. The idea is to make our people cultivate and acquire the habit of keeping to time and to be punctual.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, what effort is being made to promote a Singaporean culture here in Singapore? When the PAP came to power in 1959, there were cultural shows like the Aneka Ragam shows. These shows provided a direct link between the artistes and the masses. Further, it went at great length towards promoting an understanding of the other peoples' cultures. Very unfortunately it has died out. Even the programmes arranged at the parks here have died out. Why, may I ask, has this been allowed to happen? What is the use of building stages at Hong Lim Park, MacRitchie Reservoir and at Seletar Reservoir, if these have been allowed to become white elephants?

Even in the field of art, the open-air Art Exhibition held on the first Sunday of each month has not been heard, of late. What has happened to the Art for Everyone exhibitions that are supposed to tour the community centres? How can we build a society interested in the arts if the Ministry of Culture, which is responsible for the promotion of these arts, has let these exhibitions and shows to die out?

Even the young are being forgotten. The Education Ministry organises an art exhibition in connection with the Youth Festival. But the exhibition is of too short a duration and held only once a year. The Ministry of Culture should take the initiative to hold similar exhibitions of young peoples' work, and to hold it more often. These exhibitions could then make a tour of the various community centres.

To promote further interest in music and art the Ministry of Culture, in liaison with RTS, can introduce more documentary films so as to educate our public. Various aspects of art and music can also be introduced. Art and music in our schools can also be encouraged so that our citizens can take pride in what goes on in present day schools.

Sir, I would like to mention that some sponsors of art, after succeeding in inviting foreign artistes to perform in Singapore, are unable to look after them, such as providing proper food and shelter. What restriction has the Culture Ministry had in mind for such sponsors? Are they fully screened before a permit is granted?

Mr Lai Tha Chai (Henderson): (In Mandarin): Sir, various Members have talked about policies in regard to culture and other matters, but I would like to touch upon items like variety shows over TV telecasts. The Minister explained to us the last time why certain shows were permitted. He said that shows like the "Variety Show" and such like programmes were meant to enable people to relax.

I would propose that we should also allow those luxurious hotels and night clubs to perform their special type of decadent dances and music, even the shaking of fleshy parts. I say so not because I would like to promote such culture or activities, but to provide a certain amount of latitude to allow the rich and the tycoons to spend their money here instead of abroad,. If we do prohibit night clubs to stage such decadent performances, I would like to ask the Minister whether or not our men could be stopped from going across the Johore Causeway to enjoy the naughty shows there. They can board a plane and, after an hour or so, reach their destination to enjoy their glorious night life overseas. People can do that if they want to. What I mean to say is that in this mundane world, the world of idealism is very far away from what we are able to achieve at present. We must be practical. The rich people in Singapore can spend their money here and enjoy their lives here. If they like they can go abroad and scatter their money there. That is something that we cannot prevent. From my point of view, at the present juncture while we are subjected to various kinds of economic pressure and when our nation building in respect of culture is also subjected to foreign influence, we ought to be practical.

About Government's restriction prohibiting 18 year-olds from going into certain places, I would suggest that places like night clubs where people can enjoy decadent pastimes should be open to everyone who can afford to enjoy themselves there, subject to the condition that the Government can levy very high admission charges or entertainment duties so that our money will not flow abroad. In this way the few rich people who can fly overseas to enjoy their weekends can also well afford to spend their money here in Singapore, so that we can benefit in greater revenue. If there are rich foreigners who want to go around various places to enjoy the scenery, they can also throw their gold on these night clubs or other places of resort in Singapore. After saying all these, I do not mean to say that I am interested in promoting yellowish or grayish culture. What I mean is that, since we are subjected to foreign cultural influence and our influence on others is less than theirs is on us, we might perhaps choose the more practical way to solve this problem so that our people need not have to go abroad to spend their money. If people want to spend their glorious nights here, they can have such a facility.

I am not suggesting that the Broadcasting Department in Singapore should also allow such decadent programmes to be broadcast. We should give our children interesting shows than those for mere enjoyment. The music in Chinese shows like Ta Min and Seow Min, is not particularly beneficial to our young people. So I would like to propose some measures for the Minister to consider. In view of our present particular situation, to formulate a kind of two sided cultural policies -

Mr Conceicao rose -

The Chairman: Is the Member for Katong rising on a point of order or clarification?

Mr Conceicao: Sir, I would just like to ask whether the Member could speak a little slower, because I find his speech extremely interesting. He is going so fast that I cannot follow him.

Mr Lai Tha Chai: The Member can find the English translation from the newspapers tomorrow, or from the Radio, or from the Hansard.

(In Mandarin): Firstly, to allow such decadent music and shows to be performed with certain latitude in the night clubs on the one hand, and at the same time to build up certain kinds of progressive and proper cultural performances with the right concept in arts and culture on the other hand through the media of radio and TV broadcasting, will have its peculiar as well as general characteristics. Secondly, the Chinese term of "Variety Show" has a very rich meaning in the Chinese language. However, the Chinese expression is far nicer than the English translation. So I hope the Minister for Culture can give a better rendering to this Chinese expression so that the English translation can be as beautiful and fitting as the Chinese title.

7.15 p.m.

Other than what I have said just now, the Ministry of Culture has in recent years been promoting and encouraging performances, such as "Music for Everyone" series which are cultural and artistic activities. This will provide good material for the TV department.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is a pity that the previous speaker took a little bit seriously the injunction of the Member for Sembawang to be punctual.

First of all, Sir, may I just comment on some of the remarks made regarding the unhealthy pursuits to which our young people and others are exposed to because of the dearth of better cultural opportunities. I think the Ministry of Culture has done a great deal to fill in the gap but perhaps, especially because of a lack of financial support, it has not been able to do as much as it should have done or could have done. But when we think in terms of trying to offer people better opportunities to understand or to indulge in some cultural pursuits, perhaps a better understanding of the cultural environment would contribute to taking them away from interest in something which has less cultural value. I have brought up this point previously, Sir, regarding encouraging our people to know their own environment a little better, and even the question of their, knowing a little bit of the history of our country, interesting historical places, and the interesting stories behind these places, and in this way cultivating a sense of belonging to this place. I think if we can encourage this a little bit more, there can gradually be built a feeling of greater belonging, a feeling of greater interest in history and cultural development and the roots which we have in our own environment. I remember the Minister for Culture said, in last year's debate on the Budget, that he thought it was a good idea to encourage talks and lectures on our historical places. But I have not seen any great multiplication of opportunities of this sort of thing either over the air or through the People's Association or some other organisation. This is just a small point. But I think that since we are really in need of cultural encouragement and development, every little thing adds to the sum total of our achievement.

I also brought up the question of cross-fertilisation of cultures and getting people from one culture to understand the background of another culture. The Minister also agreed that it was a good idea. Of course, he had some reservations and these were our lack of personnel and their ability to carry forward programmes of this nature. I would like to ask him whether he has made any effort to develop such personnel. My experience last year, after I had made some comments about the lack of such opportunities, was that I was interviewed by somebody from the Broadcasting Department who was actually trying to discredit what I had said. In fact, he concocted a programme which attempted to discredit what I said about cross-fertilisation. But in that very programme, he showed Ravi Shankar playing his instrument with lots of explanations, which was, in fact, a proof of the correctness of what I had said. The Minister himself agreed. Fortunately for the Ministry of Culture, this person is now no more in the Ministry of Culture but peddling stocks and shares in the stock market. He has removed himself.

There is another point which I think could be raised in regard to the encouragement of greater cultural participation. I have mentioned that we want to get something that is indigenous, something that we can feel we belong to. I think more encouragement should be given to our people to compose music that is related to our environment, to choreograph a dance that is more related to our environment, or to write short literary plays on topics that are related to our cultural environment. I think this could be done through competitions sponsored by the Ministry of Culture, and we should have more of these things. Surely we could get sponsors for these programmes and, if it is necessary, the Ministry of Culture could try and try again, because we should not be discouraged if our initial efforts do not meet with adequate response. We should try to encourage people to participate in these competitions. At some juncture I think we will produce the occasional person who may strike a happy harmony in what he has to offer to the other people in our society. If I may quote an English poet:

`Full many a gem of purest ray serene, The dark unfathomed caves of ocean bare.'

If I may also resort to an image with which Members have become a little more familiar recently:

`Full many a flower is born to blush unseen, And waste its sweetness on the desert air.'

Now we want, of course, those things to emerge - the flower and the gem.

All in all, I think, Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, that we have a very good infrastructure where cultural development is concerned. The physical infrastructure is there. What we lack is maybe finance, but we have a Ministry of Culture and a hardworking Minister. In many countries, they do not even have a Ministry of Culture. They have a Ministry which is allied to the Ministry of Education or some other Ministry, like Information. But we have a Ministry of Culture, and we have other aspects of infrastructure, like the National Theatre and the People's Association. I think we should use all these devices and tools to further pursue our cultural policy more vigorously. What we need more, particularly, is money. I think the Ministry of Culture should in no doubtful terms place their requirements firmly before the Ministry of Finance so that we can get money to implement our cultural programmes.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in the coming financial year, the Government has allotted more than $10 million to promote colour TV, and there is also a plan to have a trial run of colour TV before the end of the year. I remember last year Backbenchers raised the question as to when colour TV would be introduced, and the Minister answered that the Government could introduce colour TV at any moment. The Minister also stated that if we did so, we would only increase our social burden. But at the time when the Minister gave such a reply we were in a state of prosperity economically. Now, however, we are under inflationary pressures and our economic progress will be slowed down. Therefore, I wonder whether it is timely to introduce colour TV within this year.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to support what the Member for Tiong Bahru has just said, because even recently the Monetary Authority of Singapore has also given orders to the various banks -

The Minister for Culture (Mr Jek Yeun Thong): On a point of order, Sir. The Member for Kampung Kembangan has already filed an amendment on Head JA subhead CA 1107, which I think includes matters of colour TV. Therefore, I think it is only fair that he be given a chance to raise matters arising out of that subhead, instead of being overtaken by the others.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: (In Mandarin): Sir, the question is if the Minister would like to oppose, he should have raised his objection earlier because other Members have touched on it.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: I am only saying that the Member for Kampung Kembangan has already given notice to raise that question. I am going to answer that question, and if the Member for Jalan Kayu wants an answer, can he wait until the Member for Kampung Kembangan has raised it?

The Chairman: In view of the fact that an amendment has been put down for subhead CA 1107, Director of Broadcasting, I think we might as well wait until the amendment comes up. Perhaps the Member for Jalan Kayu can then have his say.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: I am still a little puzzled because the point has just been touched on by the Member for Tiong Bahru, So if he can touch on this point, I do not understand why I cannot touch on it.

The Chairman: Order. I have ruled that we will wait for subhead CA 1107 to come up before discussion on this subject can be raised.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok (Delta): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, all along we have been putting stress on the economic construction at the expense of spiritual or cultural development. Everybody has a soul, a country has its soul too, a national soul. In the promotion of culture, we have never had any plans. Recently two cultural missions were supposed to go overseas, one to Germany and the other to Japan. In Germany, posters were put up in the streets informing the people there of the visit of the Singapore cultural mission for a performance. In Japan, the same publicity was given over TV, and even the Japanese newspapers announced the visit of Singapore's cultural mission. But at the last moment, the two trips were cancelled. I do not know whether the person responsible was aware of this. Even the high authorities, I think, are not aware of this. There were enquiries from an Embassy as to why the trip was cancelled. Is the Minister aware of this?

On one occasion when the person in charge of the cultural delegation went to the airport to get tickets for the delegation, he was told that there were no tickets available because the trip was cancelled. This kind of haphazard makeshift arrangement speaks ill of the cultural plans and it has dealt a great blow to cultural activities. We have not done enough in regard to giving publicity to our cultural activities or heritage. We should not just inform other countries that we have Bugis Street, or that we have a Surrender Chamber. So since they know very little about our cultural heritage, we should give further publicity to our claims on traditional cultures, the cream of our heritage. We should afford opportunities for our cultures to be introduced to other countries which are very interested in our cultures.

7.30 p.m.

When our cultural missions went abroad there was usually a representation of mixed cultures - Indian, Chinese, Malay and even Western cultures. Some Iranians have been asking why we do not send our cultural missions to their country. Since there are many countries which are very interested in our culture, why do we not avail ourselves of this opportunity to give greater publicity to our culture abroad? Instead we just publicise the bad aspects of our country. Recently I returned from Geneva. I received a Singapore publicity pamphlet on tourism, it states that there are some activities in Singapore which can be found for 24 hours. The best activities will be from 7 p.m, to 7 a.m., especially after midnight. It also gives a description of certain streets which are most interesting and places which are of interest. I do not know whether it was published by the Ministry of Culture, the Tourist Promotion Board or some other organisation. It also mentions that in Singapore there are two languages and that certain streets have Indian names. This kind of statement is misleading because in Singapore there are four official languages. Certain streets are named after certain people. In publicising our culture we should have a proper systematic and long-term planning. We should not allow our culture to sink or float by itself. This is not very good for our country. I hope the Minister for Culture will try to get as much funds for cultural activities as he can so as to enrich our cultural heritage and to increase our publicity abroad in regard to our cultures.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, much of what Members have raised had already been raised last year. In fact, I suspect that some of them have been lifted from last year's Hansard. It is filling new bottles with old wine -- Sin pin chiu chiu. It is only that the wine is a bit sour now. However, I should reply to some of the points raised by the Members.

First, I must come to our old Friend, the Member for Sembawang. He has complained, first of all, about the programmes over the TV. I agree with him that to a certain extent some of our programmes are not up to our expectations. But I must mention that most of our programmes are imported from other countries. We cannot actually have whatever we want because in some cases we are fed with whatever films that come to us. Sometimes it is not possible to put in, what you call, the healthy educational programmes. I myself sometimes feel quite embarrassed whenever i watch those mystery films depicting crime, robbery, and so on. But apart from such programmes, what else can we get? We do not have a film industry, and we depend very much, especially Chinese films, on Hong Kong and Taiwan. These are the films which we get commercially from these two places.

However, educational and informative programmes have all along formed the highest percentage of the overall output on television. Last year, 22.9 per cent of the average weekly output was educational and informative. This year, up to March, 1974, the average weekly output in this category has increased to 23.2 per cent. Of the imported programmes, excluding feature films, programmes of educational value comprised 12.64 per cent of the current weekly output. Therefore, TV Singapore is by far the largest user of documentaries in this region. At present the average weekly output of RTS locally-produced films classified as educational or informative is 53.82 per cent. This, of course, includes newsreels, magazines and public affairs programmes.

I must emphasise that the function of television is not just to educate the people. If all we want is educational programmes, then we can always scrap TV and run only the ETV. But we have other purposes too, and that is to inform and to entertain the public.

The Member for Henderson has also mentioned that we need some relaxation after work. The people should have some relaxation, and so - Hua yeh liang seow. It is a bit "soft", I agree, but I do not think that would cause any harm. If our young people are so weak that to watch a variety show just once a week weakens them to such an extent, then T think it is really a hopeless situation and all efforts at nation building, discipline, and so on should be scrapped.

The Member for Sembawang has raised many points. First, he has asked that, if possible, we should organise cultural festivals. Of course, if we have the money, we will do so. He also wants us to set up a committee to supervise the television programmes. We have actually such a committee supervising these programmes.

Mr Conceicao: He wants to be a member!

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: There is the Film Acquisition Committee. I think they are doing their best to try to get good programmes but, as I have said just now, good programmes are difficult to get. He also wants us to subsidise local cultural organisations by waiving rent for use of theatres and other places. That is rather difficult, because once you do that, then everyone will start jumping on the band wagon, and it would then not be possible to maintain our theatres properly.

As usual, the Member for Sembawang also asked about colour television. I wish to inform the House that TV Singapore will be radiating colour television

The Chairman: Order. Mr Minister, since you have said earlier on that you would answer that point only when amendment (4)* comes up, could you perhaps wait until then? Otherwise, I think it is only fair that, if you want to speak on it now, I allow the Member for Jalan Kayu to speak on it also.

• The amendment, standing in the names of Haji Mohd. Ariff and Mr. P. Govindaswamy, reads as follows:

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head JA be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CA 1107.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: I beg your pardon. I thought that was in connection with the criticism that colour television is a waste of money and that, in view of inflation, we should therefore scrap it. That is another matter. But the Member for Sembawang has asked when would it be introduced, and I think that this point should be -

The Chairman: Order. In fact, the debate should properly come up under Head JA, subhead CA 3001, Colour Television, in the Development Estimates. But since there is no amendment under that subhead and since the Minister is responsible for the overall policy, perhaps what we can do is this. If the Minister wants to answer that point now, he may carry on, and then later I will allow the Member for Jalan Kayu to say his piece. There can be a discussion on it and the Minister can then speak again. If that is all right, please carry on, Mr Minister.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: What I want to mention here is only the technical `detail about colour television. As to the criticism -

The Chairman: Mr Minister, may I again interrupt you? If it is, in fact, a matter of technical detail and not on policy, then perhaps it could come under Broadcasting. However, if it is a matter of general policy - whether or not we are going to have colour television -then please carry on.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: I would rather wait until the Member for Kampung Kembangan moves his amendment.

The Chairman: All right.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, with regard to sending cultural troupes overseas, the Ministry of Culture has no plans to send a cultural troupe overseas this year. However, there is a possibility that a cultural troupe may go to Indonesia this year because the members of the business community are contemplating to send a goodwill mission to Indonesia, and they have invited our cultural troupe to form part of this goodwill mission. If this proposal materialises, the cultural troupe will give performances in the Republic of Indonesia this year. The matter is still under consideration as plans have not yet been finalised.

7.45 p.m.

The Member for Delta has raised a point about sending a cultural troupe to Germany and Japan, but was later scrapped. I must inform him that actually this trip was not part of our cultural programme. We were invited by the Tourist Promotion Board to send a troupe to promote tourism, not culture. We responded by giving our dancers intensive training to prepare them for the trip. But later the Tourist Promotion Board found that the cost was too prohibitive and withdrew their support. So there was nothing we could do about it, It was the Tourist Promotion Board that had asked us to send a troupe there, and when they found that they could not afford it, they had to withdraw. Sending a troupe overseas requires a lot of money. Of course, it would contribute greatly to the promotion of Singapore's culture, but I would rather spend the money in Singapore on our own artistes and on our own people than promoting shows for the benefit of other countries.

An hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: As regards the brochure mentioned by the Member, I do not think it was printed by my Ministry. I think it has also something to do with the Tourist Promotion Board. So I need not elaborate on that.

On the question of a symphony orchestra, this matter was also raised last year. The answer will still be the same because a symphony orchestra costs money. If we are to start a national symphony orchestra, then it should be of a sufficiently high standard to warrant it to be called a national symphony orchestra. To achieve this, it is necessary to have a number of musicians of the required standard and for this we will have to recruit quite a number of them from abroad and to pay them well. It will cost a lot of money to maintain such an orchestra. Several years ago, the National Theatre Trust started a symphony orchestra but it ran into financial difficulties and, therefore, had to be abandoned. In view of this experience, we are very, very careful now if we have to consider the prospect of starting another one. I think we still have to wait for our budding musicians to come forward, so that we can at least start a small chamber ensemble.

As regards assistance to local writers, again I had already pointed out to the Member last year when he raised the same question, that our population of two million cannot support them. It is rather difficult for people to make a living purely by writing. However, if our local writers can produce any work of a sufficiently high standard, they should have no difficulty in getting their works published. The National Book Development Council on which my Ministry is represented tries its best to give encouragement and assistance to local writers. Book awards in Chinese were first inaugurated by the Council in 1972, but none of the 1972 entries was found to sufficiently qualify for the award. The Council hopes to inaugurate similar awards for Malay, Tamil and English language efforts once funds are available. I also understand that the Council, in conjunction with the Singapore Book Publishers Association, is in the process of establishing a Writers' Association. I think this is a good move and the Council should be congratulated for its good work.

On the question of punctuality, I have no idea that my portfolio includes punctuality campaigns. However, I think it is really a waste of time and money to launch such a campaign. The People's Association had in 1968 launched such a campaign, but it fizzled out after a few months, without achieving any significant effect. It is quite simple to make a person punctual. Much depends on the circumstances he is asked to be punctual. If it concerns his work, he has got to he punctual because he knows that he will be penalised either by suffering a pay-cut or a reprimand from the boss. If it is a date with his girl friend, I am quite sure he is quite punctual. Otherwise he will lose his girl friend. In the case of dinner parties, this is not a very important matter because if he is not punctual, he will either miss his food or have less to eat. I do not think it is really necessary to bring this up.

Sir, I must come now to the Member for Henderson because he has spoken at length on the variety show entitled Hua yeh liang seow on television. This programme has been a thorn in our flesh. If we can scrap it we would escape from quite a lot of criticisms by MPs who are trying to be puritanical. After all this variety show comes on only once a week. If we can have those programmes in the night-clubs for the very well-to-do, then why can we not have some for the not so well-to-do people, so that they can also enjoy and relax? We should be realistic. Since they need some relaxation, then although those songs would not raise the morale of young people in nation-building they can at least give them some form of relaxation. I do not know whether the title Hua yeh liang seow is proper or not, but the title has been at the tip of the tongue of many people who are familiar with this programme.

The Member for Anson has said that we should build a Singaporean culture. It takes time to build a Singaporean culture. It cannot be created in just 15 years, because we have been independent for about only 15 years now. He has also said that we have allowed the Aneka Ragam show to die out. I do not think it is true because we have called it by another name. We do not call it Aneka Ragam, but we call it a cultural show. In 1972, the National Theatre Trust presented some cultural shows at Hong Lim Park, MacRitchie Reservoir and at the other usual places. In 1973, the People's Association started its series of cultural shows for the people. Up to now, about 15 such shows have been staged at community centres and at other public places.

The open air art exhibition was started by the National Theatre Trust in 1968 but it was discontinued because of lack of support. But recently the Ministry of Culture has reintroduced this activity, and this time it is for the young artists. We found that it was very successful and because of this, we have decided to continue with this open air exhibition at regular intervals of, say, two to three months.

As regards Art for Everyone, this series of exhibitions has been going on. It is not dead. The only thing is that it takes time to go round all the 65 constituencies. I am quite sure one of these days it will come to the community centre at Anson and the Member for Anson will be asked to open it. So far we have already held about 19 of these Art for Everyone exhibitions in community centres in various constituencies. Besides the Art for Everyone exhibition, the Ministry of Culture also organises the National Day Art and Photographic Exhibition every year. In April last year, a young people's art gallery which can accommodate 200 pieces of art work was started at the National Museum. It is a permanent art gallery to exhibit the work of our young people ranging from those attending kindergarten classes to those in secondary schools and vocational institutes. School students who are good in art can submit their work for consideration of display at the gallery, and exhibits displayed are changed once in three months. Also, early this year the Ministry of Culture began a new series of concerts called "Concerts for the Young". It is aimed at featuring our young budding musicians and to provide them with an opportunity to perform in public. This is a monthly concert held at the National Library lecture hall, and admission is free. From this we can say that our young people are not neglected.

Also, Radio and Television Singapore has done its part in the promotion of cultural programmes. Whenever possible, the RTS introduces such programmes, either of local artistes or artistes from overseas. Currently, the RTS produces a programme known as Art Appreciation which is being telecast.

About foreign artistes who have been asked to come in and then forgotten, the sponsors of these artistes are responsible for their welfare in this country. I am afraid there is nothing very much we can do about this because the performers are normally brought in under private arrangement and are usually promoted on a commercial basis. In many cases, there is some sort of a contract between the sponsors and the promoters. I believe that if they are allowed to enter Singapore, the sponsors have to satisfy the Controller of Immigration. If they abscond or neglect the welfare of their artistes, the Controller of Immigration would stop them from coming in.

8.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Jek Yeun Thong: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1974 to 31st March, 1975, and ask leave to sit again.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.