MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1977 TO 31ST MARCH, 1978

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [3rd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

3.06 p.m.

Head S (cont.) -

Resumption of Debate on Question (16th March, 1977).

"That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004*." - [Mr Ngeow Pack Hua]. (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Messrs Teong Eng Siong, P. Govindaswamy and Ahmad Haleem).

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, yesterday when I spoke I had only a few more lines to go, but according to Standing Orders I was not allowed to continue because of the Moment of Interruption.

The Chairman: I am allowing you to speak now, Mr Govindaswamy.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Thank you, Sir. Regarding the site of the Somerset Road Hindu Temple which has been acquired by the Government, it is true we cannot object because the site is required for development purposes. But the compensation is not sufficient. Why is this so? If that piece of land at Somerset Road is auctioned, it should fetch $30 or $40 per square foot.

Some hon. Members: More!

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes, more than that. I am not a land valuer. The Government should compensate a charitable organisation like the Hindu Endowment Board adequately. This is a charitable organisation and not an individual land owner. The Government should consider paying reasonable compensation for the piece of land at Somerset Road.

As an alternative site, the Government has offered a piece of land at Toa Payoh for $8 per square foot. But for the other religious organisations the Government is charging only $4 per square foot. The Hindu Endowment Board is a charitable organisation and is under the Ministry of Social Affairs. It is not a private organisation that the Government can charge $8 or $10 per square foot. The Government should consider charging a reasonable price for the land at Toa Payoh. Sir, I am bringing up this matter because it has not been resolved for a long time. Furthermore, when the Board gets the money, it has to construct a temple there, which may take one year and the cost will be at least $100,000. And the Board has to pay for the land also. It is not land given free by the Government. We are going to pay for the land. Most probably, it will take another year before we have to vacate Somerset Road. I am mentioning this because the Minister for National Development is here. Could the Minister settle this problem of alternative site for the Hindu temple as soon as possible?

Sir, I have also received a complaint which was addressed to the Minister and copied to me by a Hindu temple authority at Woodlands which states that the temple has been closed down by the Government without first informing the Social Affairs Ministry. Even though the land belongs to the Government, it is not supposed to close down the temple before the devotees are informed. This action is unfair to the Hindu religious community.

Mr Speaker, Sir, if you have the time you should go and see the Woodlands temple. I think the Hon. Minister has been to the Woodlands temple. Besides the Hindu temple, there is a mosque and a church. It is unreasonable to lock up the Hindu temple straightaway. This action amounts to victimising Hinduism? I cannot think of another word, therefore I have to use the word "victimising".

Sir, all these matters must be considered by the Minister for Social Affairs. He is looking after religious matters. I think he is capable of handling these matters. I also hope the Minister for National Development and the Senior Minister of State for National Development will consider and resolve the question of an alternative site for the Somerset Hindu temple as soon as possible because the Hindu Endowment Board wishes to commence building a new temple. Before we start building, we have to get suitable men. It is not easy to get suitable men to build a temple.

Mr Ho See Beng: Otherwise I cannot sleep!

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am the Chairman of the Hindu Endowment Board. That is the reason why I have to bring up these matters.

Mr Ahmad Haleem (Telok Blangah): Sir, I would like to ask the Hon. Minister to consider the old people's plight. Our old people are generally quite proud of their self-respect and they are not really interested in public assistance. And with more and more people moving into Housing and Development Board flats, the old extended family system is breaking down. It is unfair to get the children to support their aged parents all the time because their own income may not be sufficient to give support and the parents themselves feel the same way too. There are many cases of old people in my constituency who feel that it is unfair for them to rely entirely on their children, and I feel that they are quite justified in this feeling.

On this problem, I do not think the right answer is to build more old people's homes. But would the Minister perhaps consider giving opportunities for the able old people to at least be partially self-supporting? The Member for Sembawang made a good suggestion yesterday of extending the retirement age. I would qualify that a little by suggesting that the extension should be granted not to everyone but to those whose extension of service will not jeopardise the promotion prospects of the younger staff Apart from this, perhaps in conjunction with the Ministry of Labour, part-time jobs could be obtained for them. And in conjunction with the Ministry of the Environment. perhaps a hawker licence on a co-operative basis could be granted to five or six old people who may be staying in the same block or in two or three blocks and who are willing to run a stall on a co-operative basis. They could be granted a hawker licence with certain safeguards, i.e, these licences should not be transferable and that the old people themselves should do the work rather than delegate the job to their children. In this way, they might be able to earn some money for themselves and help to pay for the extras they want, while the children themselves could provide for them the accommodation and food.

3.15 p.m.

The Minister for Social Affairs (Encik Othman Bin Wok): Sir, may I have your indulgence in first answering the points raised by the Member for Anson? He has brought up about a dozen points and if I do not answer them all, he will accuse me of victimising him.

The award of the Sportsman and Sportswoman of the Year in itself is an effort to raise the standard of sports in Singapore. There has been very keen competition since its inception. The selection is based on certain criteria and no award is made if the standards set are not met. Other incentives provided for those representing the Republic in sports include time-off for training, unrecorded leave with pay. several centralised training stints which were very necessary for the period of the international games, provision of uniforms, attire and equipment. However, being amateurs they are restricted in the receipt of monetary rewards.

At this point it would be useful to reiterate the guidelines set by the Prime Minister in 1973 on the need to be pragmatic in sports promotion. As far as I am aware, the officials of the national sports associations have been performing good work. They serve in an honorary capacity and are doing their best under the circumstances. Some of the associations with good programmes have been able to obtain sponsors while others unfortunately find it a little difficult to achieve this.

Regarding newspaper publicity, all mass media run regular columns in the majority of sports. The Sports Council itself has also two house magazines devoted entirely to sports, one in English and the other in Chinese, There is no Tamil edition yet.

As for the National Stadium, I can assure the hon. Member that it is in no danger of collapsing despite the Kallang roar. The stadium proper is firmly entrenched on a suspended floor built under strict engineering standards. Those cracks visible on walls and floors have appeared in those parts of the stadium lying beyond the suspended flooring and have subsided due to settlement. We anticipated this. Regular remedial works are being undertaken, as and when necessary, until 1979 when the subsidence is expected to stop. I would also like to assure the Member that the grounds of the National Stadium are safe for people to walk. I have not received any report of any serious accident of anyone falling into open drains.

Regarding crowd discipline at football matches, meetings are held with the Police before and after every game. As far as I am aware, the police have been and are in full control of the crowd situation at the National Stadium during football matches. The Singapore Sports Council together with the Press, FAS and the Police will in various ways appeal to and educate the spectators for sportsmanship and courtesy to be shown to the visiting teams.

The Master Plan for sports facilities is to examine the availability of sports facilities in terms of population centres up to 1 982 It has enumerated those sports facilities which are likely to be deficient. There is a deficiency of only three football fields because there are many school fields which could and should be made available to the community. It has been estimated that, in addition to public fields, numerous school fields will need to be used by the community by 1982. The Singapore Sports Council has presently reached an agreement with the Ministry of Education for constituency sports clubs to use 52 fields. On flood lighting of fields, this will be examined together with other priorities before a plan is submitted to the authorities concerned.

On the decline of badminton, the Singpore Sports Council has little jurisdiction over the officials of the controlling body. However, SSC has a badminton training scheme sponsored by a commercial organisation to benefit the youths of Singapore. At least 80% of the present national squad players came from the scheme. The responsibility of winning international honours lies within the province of the controlling body.

NFX was introduced some years' ago but gradually declined in popularity. Some of the reasons for the decline may be due to the unsuitable time when the programme comes on the TV screen and the radio, that individuals tend to be unmotivated when alone, and that others would prefer the outdoors and social atmosphere of exercising in company. On the other hand, jogging and other free calisthenics outdoors seem to have increased in popularity, simply by choice.

As regards temples, Government's policy with regard to the allocation of sites for religious institutions is to reserve adequate sites in each satellite town for the building of mosques, temples and churches where there is a demonstrated need for such places of worship. For Toa Payoh, the Government has allocated a site of about 5,000 sq. ft. to the Hindu Endowment Board for a Hindu temple. The Hindu Endowment Board, of which the hon. Member for Anson is the Chairman, has rejected in June 1976 the offer on the grounds that the area allocated was too small, that the siting of the land was poor, and that the land was shaped in such a way that no proper construction was possible. Since then, the Hindu Endowment Board took up the matter with the Housing and Development Board independently, without any success. However, my Ministry has taken up the matter with the Ministry of National Development last month The Member may be pleased to know that it has been decided to allocate a different site with an area of 10,000 sq. ft. to the Hindu Endowment Board for the construction of a Hindu temple at Toa Payoh.

I am not aware that the Housing and Development Board is charging $8 per sq. ft. for the land at Toa Payoh and also that the compensation for the Somerset Road Hindu Temple has not been settled. I will take this up with the Ministry of National Development.

On the question of the temple at Woodlands, the Housing and Development Board has informed my Ministry that the land and the temple thereon were acquired by the Board with vacant possession two years ago. A vacant possession award was paid to the former landowners. In November 1975, the caretaker of the temple handed over the keys to the Housing Board. Since then the premises have been locked, until some time in late January 1977, when another person who claimed to be the new caretaker of the temple shifted into the premises without the permission of the Housing Board. I do not know how he got in He must have broken the lock. A notice was, therefore, given to him to quit because he was an unauthorised person. Subsequently he vacated the premises. The HDB then 1st March, 1977 that time there was no one in the premises However, my Ministry is still looking into this matter.

To answer the Member for Telok Blangah, old people who have been cast out by their families, either because their families are poor or their children cannot provide for them, can always seek assistance from the Social Welfare Department. In cases of severe hardship, they will be referred to certain voluntary organisations for additional assistance in cash and in kind and, wherever possible, old people are assisted to find employment. But most of them cannot work because of poor health and only some are fit for light work. Because of this, it is felt that there is no necessity for the Government to specially provide jobs for them. From 1976 up to the end of February 1977, the Social Welfare Department found jobs for 441 welfare cases, including residents of the Homes. Of these, 159 were public assistance recipients and 156 were destitutes, disabled or aged persons. I would like to stress that it should be the duty of the children to look after their aged parents. In many instances, the old people are not altogether a burden as they can help to look after the grandchildren or attend to household chores.

On his suggestion that the old people be given a hawker licence and operate something like a cooperative, this is a matter for the Ministry of the Environment to look into.

The Member for Sembawang has raised some matters about the old people's home and the aged. Mutual benefit organisations are being encouraged not only to look into death benefits but to adopt programmes that will benefit the living as well. A few of the more prosperous ones with a large reserve fund will be starting old people's homes and they will not need any subsidy. My Ministry will assist them to set up the homes. Those old people receiving public assistance who are admitted to these homes will continue to receive their allowances.

On the question of extending the age of retirement for old people from the present 55 years to 60 years. this is a matter for the Ministry of Labour to consider.

I do not think there is a necessity at this stage to have a campaign at the national level aimed at instilling respect for the aged. Generally, our citizens are aware of the need and care for the aged. Various Members of this House have already spoken in public on the importance of caring for the aged by their young. The schools are also stressing this point in the educational programmes I understand there is also a move to form an association for old people, and this association and other related voluntary organisations can work together towards instilling greater respect for the aged people.

Now let me deal with the Member for Boon Lay. Yesterday I have been wrongly accused by the Member for Boon Lay However, I forgive him as he is new to this House. He is young and inexperienced.

3.30 p.m.

An hon. Member: He will know when he gets old.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: He has also much to learn of the ways of the world. I will give him a better perspective of the issues that he has raised. Obviously, he is laying his new broom to sweep clean. I will help him to sweep in the right direction.

I have been portrayed, Sir, as being heartless, unsympathetic and a man with a stony heart. It is obvious that the Member has not done his homework and at the same time he does not even know me at all. Those Members who are associated with me in one way or another, particularly the Member for Sembawang in this House, and those outside this House, will know that I do take a personal interest in my work. Although I do not read the Chinese newspapers myself, I can assure the Member that I am perfectly aware of what is reported in all newspapers, particularly of personal and other tragedies. Members in this House will be able to enlighten the Member for Boon Lay of my concern for cases which have been referred to me by them.

Every case of tragedy which comes to our notice, either from MPs, from members of the public or from newspapers, the Social Welfare Department investigates immediately. Where I am aware of such cases, I do personally instruct my officials to look into them, investigate, and then inform me of the action taken. My Senior Parliamentary Secretary can vouch for this. The case that was mentioned by the Member, of the mother and daughter who committed suicide, is an unfortunate one. If they had approached the Social Welfare Department for assistance, then the tragedy would not have happened. In cases of genuine tragedies and distress where assistance is required, the Department will render all possible assistance to help them. The Social Welfare Department will also consider these cases for public assistance. We can assist needy cases and there is no need for a special fund.

On the other hand, Sir, there are some who would rather get public sympathy through the press first. There are genuine cases of hardship which merit sympathy and assistance. There are, however, other cases which take the public for a ride including gullible MPs. To quote just one example. A few months back nearly all the newspapers portrayed some children being evicted from their flat by the authorities. The impression given was that the authorities were uncaring and heartless and the family was suffering from poverty and hardship. It was even reported that the father was jobless and suffering from cancer. As a normal routine, the Social Welfare Department investigated the case and it was found that the parents were working and had refused to pay the rent and were staying away from home to avoid creditors for gambling debts. It was also discovered that, far from suffering from cancer, all he had was a boil on his buttock. In this case, the money collected by the newspapers went to the wrong people. So not only were the public taken for a ride but the newspapers, including the newspaper in which the hon. Member is, I understand, a director, were also taken for a ride. I would like to stress, Sir, that people who are in distress should not hesitate to contact the Social Welfare Department for help.

As to liaison between the Ministry and other statutory boards and authorities, there has always been close liaison between the Social Welfare Department and the authorities such as the Housing and Development Board and the PUB. I have already mentioned previously in this House that my Ministry is setting up a coordinating committee of officials from various Ministries and departments to see what can be done for these cases.

I would like to assure the hon. Member that I do not aspire to be a TV star of the stature of Justice Pao, but my Ministry will continue to look after the welfare of those in need and to reach out to prevent tragedies from happening. If Members in this House are aware of any case which merits immediate attention and feel that intervention is necessary, they only need to pick up the telephone and speak to me and if they do not know the telephone number, it is 914111. If the Member for Boon Lay should need a sympathetic ear for his journalistic sensation. I can promise him action if he will ring up the same number 914111 when there is a need.

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission, may I be allowed to say a few words on the subject of Hindu temples? In Changi Village which is in my constituency there is a Sri Rama Temple which has been there for more than 30 years. I understand that with the Government development projects going on in Changi, this temple will have to make way for development in the near future. A few days ago the Hon. Minister for Finance has stated that Changi Village will be used as a tourist stopover point and that Changi Prison will be made into a tourist attraction.

In view of this, I would like to ask the Minister for Social Affairs whether the Sri Rama temple in my constituency will be allowed to continue to remain in Changi Village as one of the tourist stopover points.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, I am not aware of this temple in Changi and I am also not aware that it is going to be pulled down, or whether it is to be preserved and thus allowed to continue its activities. If the temple is allowed to remain there, then it is up to the Board of Management to decide whether or not they want to invite tourists to visit it as an attraction.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, that is also another problem to me, but I did not mention it earlier because it is in Changi. If the Government is going to acquire that place, the Government must give an alternative site so that the temple can be resited.

Regarding the 10,000 sq. ft. mentioned by the Minister, most probably they will give the alternative site right at the corner or near a rubbish dump. I must emphasise that it must be a suitable site and it must have the agreement of the Board of Management.

The Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, after hearing the speech of the Member for Boon Lay yesterday in which he accused my Minister as being one who has no sympathy and one with a stony heart, I would not have spoken had it not been for the fact that this accusation is levelled not only at my Minister but also affects the Ministry of Social Affairs as a whole, So our image will be portrayed adversely as one not carrying out our duty well. As a person who is also involved in the work of this Ministry, I know that the majority of problems that we deal in our daily routine come from members of the public, sometimes through MPs, or from journalists. Whenever an issue or a problem arises, we look into it immediately or send somebody to investigate, if necessary.

The Member for Boon Lay has said that this matter has not received our attention, as though we would not want to help anybody in distress. He even went to the extent of describing us as not being aware of a tragedy. I say that everybody has some difficulties at home and all matters or problems have their priorities. Sometimes it may appear that a problem presents a challenge or a lesson or an experience that everybody has to undergo. Some can overcome it; but to those who cannot, it may seem to be the end of the road for them when everything is not lost yet.

The Member for Boon Lay thinks that whenever there is any problem facing any member of the public, we must immediately go to his aid. I think this is not the way. When a newspaper publishes such hardship stories, the journalists, of course, report it with good intentions. We hold nothing against them but there are certain things behind such stories which they might not be aware of. The publication of news of a tragedy in the newspapers will arouse the sympathy of many kind-hearted people in our society, and those in sympathy, particularly charitable philanthropists, would respond quickly to the newspaper's appeal to come to the aid of such distressed people. It sometimes happen that when we send investigators to look into the matter asking them to first approach us for help, these people would say, "No. You had better not take any action to help us until the newspapers have published our news so that we can get more financial relief from members of the public. Then we will contact you for any help." This is a very common occurrence. This is a weakness in people who want to get more money for the family by creating a tragic story.

Sometimes we have occasion to discuss this with the journalists. After establishing the untruth of such a story, we ask the journalists to publish corrections in their newspapers but they refuse because it might reflect a very poor image of the journalists as being harsh or immoral to such people. That is why we often read such tragic news in the newspapers but never a correction of the story if there was one. To publish corrections to those incorrect cases would seem to affect the image of integrity or morality of the newspapers concerned. As Members of Parliament, we used to meet with such instances. Of course, when more genuine cases are brought out people would not criticise us for what we do, but whatever dubious cases that we have uncovered, the people would close their eyes and regard us as being immoral.

As I have said, there is always some difficulty with every family. How do we educate our people to overcome the difficulty? I feel that if there is any problem or difficulty, it should be taken as a challenge to the family concerned, as a training or testing ground for them to steel their spirit as well as their ability to survive. The strong-willed will overcome it while the feeble will succumb to charitable aid. So, as Members of Parliament, we should understand this spirit of struggle for life and try to teach the people the idea of self-reliance.

The Member has mentioned Justice Pao. Actually he is a symbol of an honest and a just judge. It is a legendary story in which he is being deified. Even in the film that we see, one side of his face is black and the other white, and between his eye brows there is a mystical symbol of a talisman. The black side of his face signifies that he is also a judge in Hades, so that while he judges the living world he can also judge the spirit of man after death.

3.45 p.m.

We have also heard stories that even the emperor gave him a regal sword authorizing him to cut off the heads of high officials or close relatives of the emperor without prior decree of the emperor if such a person was adjudged to have committed a serious error or offence. We see Justice Pao hearing cases in his court and easily cut off the prisoner's head to mete out justice. This never happens in our present situation. Here, we even have heated debate over such a small matter as "barbed wire". But Justice Pao was never able to solve the problems on economy, employment construction and other matters of national interest. I feel that the present MPs are more capable than Justice Pao who was only able to preside over fictitious cases. Our MPs are more capable than these things; they can also take part in nation building besides other things.

I would like to clarify matters today by posing two questions. The first question is whether we should encourage the habit of reliance on others? The second question is whether we should encourage the people to be self-reliant in order to be able to help or look after themselves?

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi (Kampong Kembangan): Mr Speaker, Sir, let me first say that in my dealings with the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs I found him to be an amiable person. In fact, I had the pleasure of being his constituent because I was residing in Pasir Panjang before I shifted to Marine Vista. I also had the pleasure of working very closely with him on sports promotion. Therefore, when I heard my colleague's remark that he is such a heartless person, I thought it was a bit of an overstatement. I also found that the Minister's pleasantness seems to have sieved down his Ministry because my dealings with his officials have also given me extremely pleasant experiences and I have had the pleasure of receiving excellent service. However, I found that the counter attack by the Minister on the Member for Boon Lay was also a bit harsh, Perhaps the seriousness of the matter may have really provoked him into choosing words which, to my mind, can mar his pleasantness. But if it is really true that this problem had gone to the extent where the Member for Boon Lay being a person of position and power -

The Chairman: Encik Mansor, I am sure the Member for Boon Lay can defend himself. There is no need for you to defend him.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi: I am really trying to ask the Member to clarify so that we can have a true and better picture of the situation. That is my request.

Mr Ngeow Pack Hua (Boon Lay): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, yesterday evening at about 7.45 p.m. I spoke for five minutes. The Minister had the whole night to think over what I said. Today he, together with his Parliamentary Secretary have joined hands to counter attack me, and they fired a broadside. So I will now take the opportunity to make a few clarifications.

First, the Minister should have replied to my points when I said that the main function of the Ministry of Social Affairs was to look after the welfare of the people. But the Minister dealt with sports first instead of welfare. That means he was not paying much attention to welfare work. He has paid more attention to football and sports. He has got his priorities wrong. The next point is that it has been said that I have described him as a man with a stony heart. I was not describing him personally. What I was trying to say was that he was so occupied with other things that he did not pay adequate attention to the welfare aspect of his work. I am not saying that he is by character a man with a stony heart. What I was trying to say was that he might have appeared not to have paid adequate attention to welfare work in Singapore.

Now, talking about the white side and black side of the face of Justice Pao, as far as I am aware, there is only one colour on the face of Justice Pao. In fact, we can look into this further. I hope that after I have said this, the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary will not use the regal sword against me. If there is nothing more, I shall withdraw my amendment.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Mr Speaker, Sir, I just want to assure him that I have already forgiven him. There is nothing for him to worry about.

Mr Ngeow Pack Hua: (In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead ACA 1101.

Mr Speaker, Sir, it is understood that the Registry of Cooperative Societies has been reorganised on a functional basis with an additional four staff, including two of executive officer grade. Could the Minister give some facts and figures to indicate that after this reorganisation what the Registry has done so far in respect of promotional and educational work for the benefit of the cooperative movement.

Sir, the idea of a Cooperative training centre to be set up by the Registry is a wise one. I am sure it will be welcomed by the various cooperative organisations. In fact, this training centre is long overdue. But what I want to know is where will this cooperative training centre be located, when will it be in operation, and who will be in charge of it.

Sir, it is a fact that when members of trade unions affiliated to the NTUC are selected for seminars and courses conducted abroad and locally, they are granted special leave to attend these seminars and courses. This is in a way good in promoting trade unionism. Even cooperative societies were given this privilege many years ago. But now I gather that when cooperators go for courses or seminars either abroad or locally, they are now not entitled to this special leave. Why is this so? I wonder whether the Minister will consider recommending the granting of this special leave for participants who go for cooperative training. This will in a way help develop better cooperators in the various cooperative movements. Sir, besides being a Registry, what encouragement and moral support does the Registry of Cooperative Societies give to ensure that the cooperative societies function properly? Sir, I would also like to know how many cooperative societies are in existence in Singapore. How many of them are really active?

Does the Registry of Cooperative Societies have a proper set of rules to run the various cooperatives? If it has, how is it that some societies have financial problems? I suggest that the Registry should play a greater role in the interest of the various societies and ensure that a healthy environment exists. Even in the case of the Singapore Government Officers' Cooperative Housing Society, we do not know whether or not it is really functioning. If members request for a refund of their money, no reply is given. I do not know what they are doing.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson is correct in saying that the Registry of Cooperative Societies has now been reorganised as the Registry of Cooperative Societies and Mutual Benefit Organisations. The earlier reorganisation of the Registry, which he has referred to, involved the setting up of two sections, one on administration and audit and the other on promotion and training.

Regarding the promotional and educational work undertaken by the Registry for the benefit of the cooperative movement, the hon. Member may wish to know that the Registry has conducted a number of courses for the staff and officials of cooperative societies. Last year, a basic book-keeping course was organised for 63 cooperators. A similar course will be organised next month for officials of Malay cooperative societies. There will also be a basic audit course for internal auditors. The Registry also conducts co-operative study tours for secondary school pupils and publishes pamphlets and bulletins on cooperative matters. The promotional work of the Registry is primarily one of giving advice and guidance to individuals and organisations intending to form cooperative societies. Last year 14 groups were given assistance by the Registry to set up cooperative societies in Singapore. Four more cooperative societies have been set up as a result of consultation and discussion led by the Registry staff. Several courses are being planned by the Registry to fulfil particular social roles.

On the proposed Cooperative Training Centre, my Ministry is re-examining this project in view of the difficulty in forming the apex cooperative body which was supposed to take over this project after the Government has set it up. Originally, we intended to establish the centre at the Command and Staff College building at Fort Canning. But since this building will be allocated to another Ministry, the implementation of this project will be delayed. This project is also tied up with the revision of the cooperative legislation wherein provisions are made to ensure the viability of this project and unless there is support for the project and the formation of an apex body to run it, it may not be prudent for Government to do the ground work for the apex body which may not materialise. In the interim the Registry will continue to run courses on cooperative subjects on an ad hoc basis in cooperation with the cooperative societies.

The hon. Member has also referred to the granting of special leave for cooperators to attend training courses and seminars. I am afraid that this is a matter for the employers to consider. As far as the Government is concerned, leave is granted for recognised seminars and training courses. I do agree with the hon. Member that this is one way of developing the cooperators and thus helping the cooperative movement to progress. I would certainly like to see employers in the private sector encourage their staff who are involved in cooperative work to develop themselves by attending seminars and courses.

Currently, Sir, there are 78 cooperative societies in existence. The number of cooperative societies belie the fact that the cooperative movement is not an active one, since most of the new cooperative societies serve a large segment of the population especially those formed and run by the NTUC. The Registry over the last few years had been pruning down the cooperative societies. During the period 1972-76, 21 cooperative societies were deregistered. During the same period the Registry completed the liquidation of 65 cooperative societies. This is part of the process of consolidation of the cooperative movement started in 1970.

4.00 p.m.

For the information of the hon. Member, all cooperative societies operate under the Cooperative Societies Act and Rules. Besides this, they have to operate within the ambit of their own constitutions and by laws as approved by the Registry and modified from time to time according to the requirements of their membership.

The financial problems faced by the cooperative societies are usually the result of bad management or poor judgment in embarking upon financial ventures which prove to be non-viable. The Registry gives advice and assistance to cooperative societies on financial matters. But decisions with regard to investments which are allowed by law are made by the members themselves. By and large, most cooperative societies are financially healthy. The hon. Member is obviously referring to one or two cooperative societies which are facing financial difficulties due to certain projects which failed as a result of circumstances beyond their control.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin (Bedok): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead ADA 1101.

Sir, as you are aware, the volunteer probation officers, since the scheme was initiated by the Ministry of Social Affairs sometime ago, have been and are performing a very useful community service in preventing crime and delinquency and in preventing offenders placed on probation. The handful of probation and aftercare officers of the Ministry of Social Affairs, one of whom I know personally, have by tradition and dedication continued without much publicity in shouldering responsibilities for rehabilitating offenders and drug addicts in our community. With the increasing problem of drug abuse on our hands, the burden of rehabilitating these offenders will fall on the shoulders of these officers and the volunteer probation officers. I would like to know, Sir, if the Minister could inform the House how many such volunteer probation officers are now attached to the Probation and Aftercare Service of the Ministry of Social Affairs, and what has been the dropout rate during the past five years? Are there plans and sufficient resources to further expand the service to the various constituencies or neighbourhoods? Will the Minister consider granting incentives and privileges to volunteer probation officers in appreciation of their services, for example, transport and out-of-pocket allowances, concession on extramural study courses of the University of Singapore which are relevant to their work?

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, there are now 284 volunteer probation officers to assist the full-time probation officers. The community probation service was launched in 1971. Between 1971 and 1976, 797 persons applied to become volunteer probation officers. 290 of them or 36.4% were ultimately selected. The Department is highly selective in order to preserve the standard of work, image and integrity of the service. Up to the end of last year, only 58 or 20% have opted out of the programme, an average of 3.3% a year. Of these, 17 resigned on their own accord because of personal commitments; 39 were found unsuitable and two died. 72 volunteer probation officers have been in the community probation service for more than five years. The dropout rate is, therefore, minimal.

I agree with the Member for Bedok that incentive schemes are necessary to sustain the interest of the volunteer probation officers. But it is not desirable to grant monetary incentives like transport allowances and out-of-pocket expenses as it will defeat the spirit of voluntarism among our citizens. The best incentives are the satisfaction of a job well done and the recognition given for such voluntary work. My Ministry intends to issue commendation certificates to volunteers who show dedication, continued interest and success in voluntary work.

This year the Department proposes to embark on another two neighbourhood projects in Bedok New Town and Marine Parade. While these projects have been found useful in involving the local community in rehabilitating offenders in their midst, it is not possible with the limited resources to take on too many constituencies or neighbourhoods at a time.

Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin: Sir, in view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (4), subhead BCA 1101. Mr P. Govindaswamy, are you sure you are on the right subhead because this is on the Muslim Religious Affairs Division?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes, Sir.

The Chairman: Then carry on.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BCA 1101* (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Encik Sidek Bin Saniff).

Sir, I have received a request for an extra Tamil-speaking kathi, for the Shariah Court which at the moment has only got a Malay speaking kathi. I understand that some of the Indian Muslims who have a lot of dealings in this court find it difficult at times to communicate with the Malay kathi. Perhaps the Department would not mind providing a Tamil-speaking kathi to solve the problem. Could the Minister look into this matter?

Encik Sidek Bin Saniff (Kolam Ayer): (In Malay): Sir, marriage is one of the most important events in the life of man. This is a natural inclination. Even animals have this instinct. The only difference is that as human beings we are guided by rules. Our mind forms the basis of our ability to strike a balance. We are then able to recognise what is permissible and what is forbidden. Permissible cohabitation in the eyes of Islam and other religions is through marriage or wedlock. Cohabitation between a man and a woman outside marriage is known as adultery. Sigmund Freud who laid much stress on the significance and overwhelming urge of sex in human nature has caused many people to hold the view that one of the factors for the unbalanced world situation at present can be attributed to sex. At present, we find that the problem pertaining to sex has become more widespread so much so that it is causing anxiety both in the West and in the East. Morality has been adversely affected. Incidence of VD is rising. Some people have even been saying, "Why should we own a cow if we can find cow's milk everywhere?" In fact, this figure of speech is different from what the Member for Telok Blangah has said. There are women who totally reject the idea of marriage but continue to cohabit with men after taking steps to ensure that they would not become pregnant. They would say. "Why should we trouble ourselves by becoming pregnant and bear children?" They say this as if they have forgotten that by the grace of God they were delivered unto this world by their mothers. The course of pregnancy and child bearing involves much sacrifice on the part of the mother or wife.

Sir, all of us certainly want our marriage to last. In the Al-Quran it is stated that the one thing which God allows but dislikes is divorce of a married couple. This is because divorce will present difficulties particularly to the children. I hope this will not be made an excuse by those who are afraid to get married. In this connection, I would like to express my appreciation for the good work of the Singapore Shariah Court which from time to time succeeds in reducing the rate of divorce among members of the Muslim community in Singapore. I only hope and pray that while the two parties are negotiating with the Shariah Court as an intermediary, no undesirable events take place. What I mean is that while the Court is trying to resolve the divorce cases, it should keep track of every case in great detail to ensure that no delays are caused as this may result in either party committing an act which is forbidden. For instance, should quarrels develop the feeling of hatred on the part of the husband may cause him to do something drastic against the wife. Or what is worse is that if there is a third party involved, then an adulterous relationship which is deplorable may develop. In this connection, I think it would do well for the Ministry to issue a statement for the benefit of members of the public informing them as to which authority they should submit their appeal to should they be dissatisfied with the decision of the Shariah Court. For instance, can they appeal to the Singapore Muslim Religious Council (MUIS), or is there any board of appeal for this purpose? It is a common occurrence that whenever a quarrel develops, the wife who constitutes the weaker party is usually victimised by the husband. Bruises on various parts of the body are usually cited as strong grounds for divorce by the wife. This is usually made the main point for consideration by those concerned. There may be cases in which a doctor who is called to examine a woman cannot determine whether or not the bruises were caused by assault by the husband. In such cases will the Court rely on the doctor's evidence or will it form its own conclusion?

Sir, I hope such matters as I have mentioned will be carefully studied so that there will always be good relations between the Shariah Court and members of the public, a kind of relationship whereby hopes can be turned into reality or the sanctity of the institution of marriage can be maintained. Whether a marriage can last or whether it breaks after a quarrel has developed, every case should be dealt with tactfully and in the wisest possible manner in accordance with the tenets of the Islamic religion.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, the Shariah Court has a standing arrangement made with the High Court for the use of interpreters when dealing with Tamil-Muslim and Punjabi-Muslim cases. The number of Indian-Muslim cases handled by the Shariah Court each year is very small and most of them can speak Malay. In 1975, there were only four cases. In 1976, there were only three cases. Therefore, this number does not justify employing a Tamil-speaking kathi to solve the problem. The Shariah Court will continue with this present practice of using Tamil interpreters from the High Court when dealing with Indian-Muslims who cannot speak Malay. But we intend to have a Tamil-speaking Naib Kathi or Assistant Kathi to officiate at marriage ceremonies and to deal with cases involving Indian Muslims.

4.15 p.m.

As regards the point raised by the Member for Kolam Ayer, firstly, I would like to thank the Member for praising the efforts of the Shariah Court to bring down the number of divorces among Muslims in Singapore. The Shariah Court has a difficult but challenging task in dealing with various matrimonial disputes relating to marriage, divorce, the division of properties and the payment of dowry, maintenance and consolation gifts (matta'ah).

Since its inception in 1958, the Shariah Court has been quite successful in dealing with disputed cases of divorce and has managed to cut down the divorce rate from around 50% before 1958 to 10% at present. This is the lowest divorce rate among Muslims in this part of the world. It must be recognised that dealing with marital disputes involving couples who disagree with each other is by no means an easy task. The Kathi and the Muslim social case workers furthermore have to work within the ambit of the religious laws. So far nothing contradictory to religious laws ever occurred during the conciliation or compromise between the parties concerned. Also every effort is made by these officials to settle cases as quickly as possible.

In matrimonial disputes, complaints of assault are made by one party, usually the female party. The complainant will be asked by the Shariah Court to lodge a report with the police and to go for a medical check-up. The case is then referred to the Civil Court. Subsequently, in the divorce proceedings the set of evidence obtained from the Civil Court relating to the charges of assault together with the medical evidence available will be used in considering the case by the Shariah Court.

There is provision under the Administration of Muslim Law Act for appeals to be made to an Appeal Board constituted from time to time by the President of the Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura. Any person who is not satisfied with the decision of the Shariah Court may appeal to the Appeal Board. The Appeal Board may confirm or reverse or vary the decision of the Court, and exercise any such powers as the Court could have exercised, making such order as the Court ought to have made or order a retrial. The decision of the Appeal Board is final,

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEA 1101* (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy).

Although relief funds allocated for these years have decreased, however, there are more people who need welfare assistance. In recent years, the Social Welfare Department has promoted a scheme to enable those under relief aid to get employment. This is a good measure. It will not only reduce Government's burden of relief aid but also enable those recipients to increase their income to enjoy a better life. The Minister has said that last year the Department had helped about 400 people of old age to get employment. This is a very good move.

However, I have received some complaints that the officers in the Social Welfare Department in dealing with these people have been too hasty or peremptory in their attitude. They stopped the payment of the relief aid to such people before the time was ripe and even before they could get any employment. In my constituency there is a 53 year-old woman who lives with her mother who is 73 years old. They have no children to support them, as a daughter had moved out upon her marriage. She was then receiving relief assistance at $40 per month. The officers in the Social Welfare Department found that the 53 year-old woman is still healthy physically and advised her to seek a job or the Department could help her to get a job. She took their advice. But before she could get any employment, they cancelled her public assistance. Under the circumstances, who is going to support these two aged women? This instance shows that the officers have been too hasty and the Social Welfare Department has been too presumptuous. I can supply the Minister with the details of this case, so that he can look into it. I would like to say that there are also other similar cases. I have to mention this case here hoping that the Minister and also the Senior Parliamentary Secretary would pay more attention to it and to see that the officers in the Department will be more careful in such matters in future.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, the Social Welfare Department which looks after the welfare homes seems to be uncertain particularly in its management of Girls' Homes. I have often been told that some of the girls from these homes after rehabilitation are repeatedly sent back to the welfare homes for the same offences, like running away from home, mixing with bad company, indulging in undesirable acts, etc. Why is this so? I wonder what motivation and rehabilitation is given to these girls when they are in these welfare homes.

Sir, I would like to know how the counselling of welfare cases is being handled. I gather that many cases of family disputes are referred to this Counselling and Advice Section. The cases take a long time to settle, and some even take a year, so much so that some fail to resolve the family disputes. This section is indeed a very important one. It is this section which decides either the family lives in harmony or break up. I feel this section cannot afford to delay the settling of welfare cases. I wonder whether this section is running short of officers or the officers themselves have to be given proper and intensive training either locally or abroad.

Sir, I notice that some of the offices of the Social Welfare Department at Pearl's Hill are badly housed. There are cubicles with wooden partitions which look like dungeons, and the atmosphere is uncomfortable.

Any private discussion going on in one room can be heard in the other. Private affairs become public knowledge, because of the shabby cubicles provided. Can something be done to improve this deplorable situation, so that the officers can deal with the public more efficiently and in a better environment?

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, may I seek your indulgence to speak on the same topic now, so that I need not move my amendment (8)* later on?

• The amendment reads as follows

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead BED 3011.

The Chairman: All right.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, according to the Memorandum (Paper Misc. 3 of 1977), the increase of $400,000 in Public Assistance provision is due to the revised rates. That means from now on those who have to depend on public assistance will be given more. It shows that the Government especially the Ministry under the care of the kind hearted Minister. does take good care of those who are less privileged and less fortunate. However, no matter how much we increase the amount of public assistance allowance, it is really difficult for the recipients to make both ends meet nowadays. Because of this, I would like to see the Department of Social Welfare relax its regulations and conditions in order that recipients of public assistance allowance can be reasonably allowed to take part-time jobs from time to time to supplement their public assistance allowance. In other words, no recipient should be disqualified if he is found to take on an odd job or a part time job because the amount of public assistance allowance that he receives is not enough.

Sir, the Ministry has publicly announced a scheme whereby sums of $1,000 will be loaned without interest to those who need to start a small business so as to help them be on their feet. I would like to know whether the provision for Public Assistance allowance will also be used for this purpose and whether the present recipients of the allowance will be allowed to participate in this scheme.

Mr Ng Kah Ting (Punggol): Sir, may I have your permission to speak now so that I need not move my amendment (9)* as it relates to Public Assistance?

• The amendment reads as follows:

(9) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BED 3011.

The Chairman: All right.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Thank you, Sir,I fully share the sentiments expressed by my colleagues, the Member for Sembawang and the Member for Delta, concerning the question of public assistance allowances. The Member for Delta is correct in saying that due to the revision of this allowance, there is an increase of $400,000. The point I wish to make may be similar to the points mentioned by the two hon. Members, but I think it is necessary to repeat them if we are to get results.

I must say that the Social Welfare Department should consider the requests of Members of Parliament when they are faced with problems of this nature, that is, where a recipient of public assistance has to do some odd job to supplement his income to maintain his family. There is one case in the Housing and Development Board Estate in Punggol. A certain family was receiving about $91 a month in public assistance allowance. The woman has three children but unfortunately her husband left her. So she took on some small jobs. This was discovered by the Social Welfare Department and as a result, the public assistance was withdrawn. I believe this is a bit too harsh because the small allowance could only enable this family to live, if I can term it, from hand to mouth. Taking the allowance away from her just because she is industrious enough to do some odd jobs, like helping in the stalls in order to get a few dollars more a day to maintain the family, is a harsh act. In this respect, would not the Minister for Social Affairs consider sympathetically the plight of such recipients, especially those who have to pay rentals to the Housing Board for the flats they live in? The rental for a one-room improved flat today is about $37.50. So that family has to pay, apart from public utilities

4.30 p.m.

Mr Seah Mui Kok (Bukit Ho Swee): One-third is gone.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: My good Friend, the Member for Bukit Ho Swee says that one-third of the allowance is gone. It is slightly more than one-third. After paying for public utilities, what remains for the family is hardly sufficient. I remember well, Sir, in the Addendum to the President's Speech, the Prime Minister said that we are committed to help the most needy. Surely this is one aspect where the Ministry of Social Affairs can consider. I think there should be greater flexibility in the rules and they should encourage these recipients if they are able to work to find some form of employment so that they can earn supplementary income. If greater encouragement is shown, I do not think they want to live on the bitter bread of charity.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Sembawang has brought up a case which is more than a complaint during his meet-the-people session. He has accused our staff of handling the case in a rather hasty manner. If it were so, I apologise and ask him to give us the details of the case so that we can send somebody to look into this matter.

I come to the points made by the Member for Anson. In 1976 a total of 400 girls were discharged or paroled from the Social Welfare Girls' Home. Only 43 girls or 10% were readmitted. Many of these girls were recalled because of an infringement of parole conditions, such as:

That she shall not involve herself in activities detrimental to her work;

That she shall not frequent or work in bars;

That she shall not change her address and employment without the prior knowledge and consent of her after-care officer;

That she shall take instruction from her after-care officers when given.

The girls were therefore readmitted for reasons other than that which has precipitated the admission into the Home originally. In many cases, readmission is necessary to enhance the rehabilitation process.

The Social Welfare Department has recently undertaken a reorganisation of this Girls' Home. This is to effect better classification and segregation of the girls according to their behaviour and the kind of care or rehabilitation required by each individual girl. Rehabilitation programme within the institutions was also reviewed. Programmes to inculcate more discipline and for greater character-building and citizenship were introduced. Where it appeared that a girl could no longer benefit from academic schooling, training for skills or for work discipline in an industrial setting was provided. Thus a work release scheme has been introduced in Toa Payoh Girls' Home where girls who have more adequate programmes and show good behaviour go out to work daily in an approved factory. The girls are encouraged to continue working in the particular factory where there is good supervision over them on their discharge.

The Mount Emily Girls' Home factory assembly work is continuing. This provides the girls with the discipline for working in factory settings. They are encouraged to continue in such occupations on their discharge. Apart from more discipline being stressed in training programmes, more interesting and varied educational and recreational programmes are also being introduced to produce mentally and physically healthy young persons.

It is expected that more trained staff will be deployed on counselling programmes for girls in residential institutions in the new financial year. Family disputes, whether they are between parents and children or between marital parents, are often the result of relationship problems. These problems in turn are caused by personality conflicts. Such cases require a considerable amount of counselling over a long period of time. Reconciliation is often temporary and problems erupt again each time a family faces a crisis.

The Social Welfare Department is aware of the importance of this Counselling and Advice Section and attempts are being made to upgrade the effectiveness of the work of this section. The section will be staffed with higher grade trained staff in the new financial year. One staff member will be leaving for special training in marital counselling in the United Kingdom shortly, and the second phase of the in-service training programme on counselling for staff of the section has begun on 15th March this year.

Steps have already been taken to extend the office space on the ground floor of the Social Welfare Department. The extension work will enable the Department to make available interviewing rooms so that interviews can be conducted in privacy. Unnecessary wooden partitions will be removed so that the staff may carry out their work in a more comfortable atmosphere.

On the points made by the Member for Delta, under the public assistance scheme all recipients where possible, including the handicapped and aged, are encouraged and assisted to take on part-time jobs to supplement their public assistance allowance so that they need not entirely be dependent on Government welfare relief. However, there has to be a limit to the amount of income that the public assistance recipient is allowed to retain, otherwise public assistance allowance will be taken by these recipients as a supplementary income and it will also encourage them to stay on public assistance allowance for as long as possible. Every encouragement will be given to assist public assistance recipients to try to be self-dependent where possible. The criteria for public assistance are stringent and those who are able but unwilling to work are disqualified from public assistance.

The Self-Employment Assistance Scheme, a self-help project, was implemented by the Social Welfare Department in February 1977. This is to provide interest-free loans to help those in poor financial circumstances to stand on their own feet. It is financed from a charity fund. The public assistance vote is not used for this project. The Self-Employment Assistance Scheme is to cater specially for public assistance recipients to enable them to be self-supporting.

Sir, on the points raised by the Member for Punggol. I have mentioned earlier that there has not been much change in the consumer price index since the last review to merit a further review of the rates of public assistance. Under the public assistance scheme, a recipient with a wife is allowed, in addition to his public assistance allowance of $66 per month, to retain an increased income of up to $15 per month. Under the mean test he gets another $15 per month under a work incentive credit system. This $30 is disregarded in the assessment of the quantum of public assistance allowance payable. Also, an additional disability allowance of $10 per month is payable to a head of a household who is certified permanently disabled. Fares are also given to recipients who need to attend Government clinics or hospitals for treatment. Public assistance recipients, particularly the aged, in addition to public assistance, are also receiving in cash and kind from charitable bodies and voluntary organisations.

Wherever possible, the Department also helps to find jobs for the public assistance recipients or their families so that they can be self-sufficient and will not have to depend on welfare aid. The Social Welfare Department is therefore unable to assist further with the payment of rentals to public assistance recipients. Recipients, where possible, are encouraged to help themselves as Government alone is not able to provide adequately for all the needs of public assistance recipients. For 1976 the Social Welfare Department disbursed $3.6 million in public assistance allowance to a monthly average of 6,640 families.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I am very grateful to the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs for his kind reply. But would he assure this House that the public assistance allowance would not be straightaway withdrawn if the Department has assisted a recipient in getting a job?

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Sir, that depends on the salary that the recipient gets from the job. If the salary is not very big, then we will certainly consider the case.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, in his reply the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has stated that the criteria for public allowance are stringent. I understand that the mean test used to calculate the amount of public assistance allowance was fixed years ago. I want to know if the Senior Parliamentary Secretary thinks it is high time to review, revise and upgrade the mean test to keep up with the times.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: No, Sir.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the detailed reply by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I propose to take the suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 5.15 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.44 p.m. until 5.15 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.15 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head S - (cont.)

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEC 1101* (*The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Ho Kah Leong and Ahmad Haleem).

Sir, the allocation here amounts to some $860,000 which shows a decrease as compared with last year. A creche is mainly to help working mothers with children to go out and work. This service is of particular assistance to wage earning parents. This is a very good service provided by the Department. However, I would like to ask the Minister two questions. First, will his Department consider the setting up of a creche at Marsiling in Woodlands which is in the Sembawang Constituency, because there are many factories in this big satellite town and the population is also very big. The creche will help to ease the burden of the housewives when they go out to work. Second, why has the number of staff at the creches been greatly reduced? Is it because of a need to reduce expenditure, or is there any other reason? If the reason is good, maybe it would be quite acceptable. But the children need adequate care and the service at the creches will ensure that the children are safe.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): Mr Speaker, Sir, if my memory serves me right, the Ministry of Social Affairs at one time spoke very highly of the creches under its management. However, I was rather disappointed to learn that the Ministry has lost interest in running its creches, so much so that all its creches will soon be handed to the NTUC and its affiliates. With due respect to the NTUC, Sir, I have not the least doubt that it will be able to run these creches just as well. All I want to say is that if the running of the creches is regarded as part of its responsibility, then the Ministry should keep its own creches and look after them. I have no objection to the NTUC or other interested private parties being encouraged to set up creches of their own to augment social services of this nature. But I am sure that as more married women are encouraged to join the labour force, more and more creches will be needed.

Another point in my mind is that if eventually all the creches are handed over to the NTUC, despite my appeal made here, what will happen to the staff? There is a total staff of 96 in FY 77 employed to look after the creches. Will they all be retrenched? I am sure some of the members of the staff must have undergone professional training. Under such circumstances, how would their expertise be put to optimum use?

Mr Ahmad Haleem: I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Sembawang has asked whether a creche could be built in Marsiling area, in Sembawang constituency. The Social Welfare Department fully agrees with the Member that there must be adequate creche facilities to look after the children of working mothers. Since the creche services are very highly subsidised, the Department will have to be convinced that there is a demand for such services in a particular area before a creche is built. The building of a creche can be considered if the need for creche facilities is established. Although there are plans to establish more creches, the present policy is to encourage and help the private sector to set up their own creche in or near their premises to assist married female workers who have young children. The aim is to encourage more married women to take up employment in Singapore. The Social Welfare Department will advise and assist any private or non-Governmental organisation that wishes to start a creche for its female workers. It will also ensure that such creches are properly run.

The Member for Sembawang has said that the staff for the creches of the Social Welfare Department have been drastically reduced. The reduction of staff in the various creches in 1976 was the result of the implementation of a new staffing norm which the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Social Affairs agreed on to reduce the high cost of running Government creches. Except for the few larger creches, the majority of the other creches are not affected. In fact, two creches, such as Lee Kuo Chuan Creche and the Tanjong Pagar Creche, have increased their staff under the new staffing norm.

Mr Speaker, Sir, with regard to the Member for Jurong's query, let me correct the picture on the transfer of creches to-date. Only the Kallang Creche has been transferred to SILO to run. In the case of the staff in the Kallang Creche, they were absorbed into the other 10 creches to fill vacancies. As for the transfer of the other creches to the NTUC, this is still under consideration and has not been implemented yet. Should the creches be transferred to the NTUC, they will have their own trained staff to operate the creches. The staff of the existing creches will be redeployed. The creches and the equipment will be transferred to the NTUC on take-over. However, rent and other charges will be met by the organisation concerned.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary has said just now that his Department will encourage more private commercial and industrial organisations to set up creches. This is a very good proposition. I would like to ask who will be taking the initiative to get the organisations in the private sector to set up these creches, and whether his Department has taken any lead to liaise with them.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, if it is necessary, private organisations in the commercial or industrial sector can liaise with us on this matter. Of course, as a Department in charge of creches, we have the duty to help them to set up the creches.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi: Mr Speaker, Sir, the hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned that the Government creches are being heavily subsidised. I have got two questions. First, on the transfer of the creches to SILO or the NTUC, will there be an element of subsidy? Second, will there be any limit on the rates to be imposed by the organisations on taking over of the creches?

The Chairman: Encik Mansor, may I point out that unless you catch my eye, you are not supposed to stand up and speak.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi: My apologies, Mr Speaker, Sir.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid I am not able to answer his questions because this matter is still under negotiation. Until we have definite results, I cannot answer him.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the detailed reply given by the Senior Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement - Mr Ahmad Haleem: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of item )b) of subhead AAA 3020 Mr Yeo Choo Kok: (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead BED 3011 Mr Ng Kah Ting: (9) That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BED 3011.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Mr Speaker, Sir I had intended to speak on sports under what I thought was the correct subhead. But it has already been spoken by the Member for Anson on a previous amendment. I therefore do not wish to move my amendment.

The Chairman: All right. Amendment (8), Mr Yeo is not moving. Amendment (9), Mr Ng is not moving. Amendment (10), Mr Teong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 8301*. (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Dr Ong Leong Boon).

Mr Speaker, Sir, this allocation is for the Singapore Sports Council. Last year the grant was $2 million. For this financial year the allocation is $1 million. There is a decrease of 50%, i.e. $1 million. I would like to know the reason. With such a meagre sum of $1 million it is not sufficient to promote sports on a national scale. If we want to promote sports island-wide so as to build a rugged nation, we should have adequate funds to achieve this objective.

The Singapore Sports Council has, in the past few years, made certain achievements in the promotion of sports activities, particularly in ball games. The standards of the various sports and games have also been raised. For instance, in the recent pre-World Cup Football Tournament, Asian Zone, held in Singapore, Singapore was placed second. This is quite good, though we could not get first place. That is some consolation to us.

I would like the Minister to answer two questions. The first question is whether he would consider giving some transport allowance to Sports liaison officers of the various districts. They have all along contributed much to sports and games on a voluntary basis. They have used much of their own time to attend various meetings and to go out to help promote sports and games. Therefore, we should think about them and provide them with some transport allowances to encourage them.

5.30 p.m.

Dr Ong Leong Boon (Kim Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, I rise to make some comments on the Singapore Sports Council. I would like to re-emphasise the objective that we have always declared that in our sports promotion, the intention is really to promote sports participation at mass level and that we should not unduly over-emphasise, over-stress and over-exert to produce world beaters. I must however, Sir, add that it is to an extent a necessity for our sports promoters to try to achieve some reasonable standard for our top sportsmen, at least at regional level. One of these side effects would be in the national interest, not least politically but certainly, and the more important level, it further stimulates and encourages mass interest and mass participation.

I therefore note with interest in the Main and Development Estimates that the contribution to the Sports Council remains at $4 million which is not different from that for the previous year. It is in a sense a static contribution. However, Sir, looking under the Development Estimates, I notice that the grant to the Singapore Sports Council has dropped from $2 million for FY 76 to $1 million for FY 77 with a provision for revote. I would like to seek the Minister's clarification as to whether this drop from $2 million to $1 million indicates any declining interest, if at all, in sports promotion and, if not, why this lesser figure. Sir, more importantly, I would like to seek the Minister's views on the following points:

The first is in regard to the centralisation of all national sports associations under one roof. I am aware that in the past, Sports House at Rutland Road was offered to all national sports associations to have their headquarters, but due to a variety of reasons many national sports associations have not been able to maintain an office there. Sir, I found this most regrettable because this has created a lot of administrative problems in liaison and co-ordination work. In fact, today most sports associations have correspondence addresses which change from year to year and sometimes from season to season. I notice that some national associations have, as a correspondence address, the home or the office of their office bearers. As a result of this, Sir, very often correspondence is lost and letters do not reach the office-bearers in time. And by the time a letter reaches the office-bearer, it may take months, sometimes three to six months, by which time it is already a fait accompli. I am suggesting therefore that the Singapore Sports Council should look into the possibility of getting all national sports associations housed under one roof and preferably at the Singapore Sports Council. This will certainly enhance the Sports Council as a central point for sports promotion in Singapore. It will help promotional work for the various associations. I know that there are problems of finance. But since this country is encouraging sports participation on a very large scale, I think the least the Government can do is to provide quarters at the Sports Council office at very reasonable rates.

Sir, the second point relates to the Master Plan for Sports for the next five years. I notice that there have been some announcements regarding the Sports Master Plan. I feel that before the plan is drawn up or made public, the Singapore Sports Council should consult or liaise with the various national sports associations regarding the promotion of sports for Singapore for the next five years. I think the various sports associations in many ways have the expertise, the knowledge, the interest of sports promotion in Singapore, and I suggest therefore that they should be consulted where the Master Plan is concerned. Certainly, when it comes to the question of provision of sports facilities, they might be able to offer some useful suggestions.

Sir, I have really been asked to raise the next point by some Members who are interested in jogging. I was told that MacRitchie Reservoir is a favourite jogging site, perhaps for reasons of convenience or for other particular reasons. Nevertheless, MacRitchie Reservoir is a good site. It has changing facilities but there have been requests for locker facilities.

One other point which I would like to raise under this subhead is the hope that the Singapore Sports Council may take it up. It is that up to today as far as I know there is no institutionalised form of co-ordination between the Sports Council and, of course, the national sports associations on the one hand and the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Defence on the other. As we know, trying to promote sports and also trying to build a creditable team of sportsmen requires training in the schools, national service and after. As such, because of this lack of co-ordination, several sports associations have found it difficult to try to get together sportsmen from the various quarters for training. The sportsmen might be at school or in national service or out working. Hence, I think there is a place for some form of co-ordination to be established between the Sports Council, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Defence. I am suggesting this. Sir, really in the interest of sports promotion, and I would like the Hon. Minister for Social Affairs to give us his comments.

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, may I firstly correct both the Members for Sembawang and Kim Seng on this grant of $2 million? This grant was for development projects of sports facilities and not for sports promotion. It has not been reduced but the $1 million is carried over from FY 76 to FY 77.

Sports promotion is tempered with prudence and control in spending commensurate with our policy, and I have stressed this many times here, Sir, that nothing is for free. People pay only a nominal sum for the use of sports facilities provided at a highly subsidised cost. ,This is to ensure that recreational sports can come within the reach of everybody.

On the suggestion of the Member for Sembawang for transport allowances for sports liaison officers, I agree with him that the SLOs are volunteers. If we give them rewards for their services, then as I said just now, Sir, the spirit of voluntarism is gone. However, in appreciation of their services, the Singapore Sports Council has already provided them with these privileges:

(1) free passes to witness football matches at the National Stadium, including Malaysia Cup matches;

(2) concession rates for the use of all SSC swimming pools;

(3) concession rates at SSC instructional lessons, either in swimming, tennis, squash;

(4) special rates for all seminars and courses organised by the SSC.

Sir, let me now answer the points raised by the Member for Kim Seng. On the question of centralising all national sports headquarters under one roof, the original intention of the Sports House at Farrer Park was to provide rooms for sports organisations. There were and still are some organisations which have rooms in Sports House. However, from our experience, the officials and sportsmen of each respective sport hardly need to communicate with those of other sports except at the annual general meetings of the Singapore National Olympic Council. Meetings of such sports organisations are held on voluntary arrangements and are restricted to the officials of that sport. Therefore, I think there are no obvious advantages although the opportunities are there for sports organisations to get under one roof.

With reference to the Master Plan on sports facilities for the period 1976 to 1981, this was presented to the Ministry of Finance and approval was given to implement certain parts of the plan. The Plan was conceived in 1974 and completed in 1975. Sports organisations were consulted and the target of the Master Plan was to arrive at sufficiency in sports facilities for the more popular sports. Since, in principle, approval from the Ministry of Finance has been received, the Sports Council has begun to implement the Master Plan.

On the question of co-ordination between the various bodies involving the training of sportsmen, I think the Member has made a good suggestion and we will look into this to find ways and means to co-ordinate the various organisations or bodies.

Regarding changing room facilities and lockers for joggers at MacRitchie Reservoir, it is true that changing facilities are there but no locker service. The Jogging Association, I understand, has indicated this to the Singapore Sports Council, and the matter is being looked into.

Sir, we have provided changing facilities in many of our sports complexes and swimming pools at Farrer Park, Queenstown, Toa Payoh Athletic Centre and the National Stadium. At Farrer Park squash and tennis courts area, we are providing changing rooms too.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I wish to thank the Hon. Minister for his comments. I just want to make the point that I still think and I hope that he will consider it desirable in the long run for the Sports Council to get, and I hope he tries very hard, all the national sports associations under one roof with the blessings of course and assistance of the Ministry of Finance.

The other point is with regard to consultation. I might like to add that as far as I know at least one association was not consulted.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I thank the Minister for his detailed reply. Although he is not prepared to give better encouragement to sports liaison officers. I hope next year he will give them better encouragement.

Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

5.45 p.m.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BEJ 8101.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I refer to the Memorandum which states that:

`A sum of $400,000 has also been provided for the construction of a new Home for Destitute Persons to alleviate over-crowding in the existing Homes'.

In FY 76 there was already such a provision and today this House is being asked to revote this provision. Sir, I wish to seek further enlightenment from the Minister as to when this Home for Destitute Persons will be built? Of course. I must hasten to add that I have no desire to have such a Home built in my constituency. I would like to ask why nothing was done last year, and as a result this apparent revote. When will this building be completed? Where will it be located, and how many persons will it accommodate in the light of the explanation given in the Memorandum?

Encik Othman Bin Wok: Sir, funds for the building of this new Home for Destitute Persons was first entered in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1973, and the sum allocated was $620,000. But at that time the Social Welfare Department was still scouting for a suitable piece of land. Subsequently, the Master Plan Committee allocated the former British Air Ministry and Wireless Station at Chia Keng I as a site for the Home. Unfortunately there was some delay in obtaining the costing for the project. When the estimates were submitted, costs had risen to $1.13 million. In view of the high costs and the relatively short tenure for the site, the Ministry had no choice but to reconsider the project, it was finally decided to proceed with it by scaling down the requirements to the bare essentials. The estimated cost was brought down to $439,800. Work is now in progress and it is expected that the Home will be operational by March next year, i.e, within FY 77, when the funds will not have to be revoted in the next financial year. The number that can be accommodated at this new Home will be about 210 persons. They will be able-bodied persons from the Bushey Park Home, and they will be required to do work like growing vegetables, rearing chickens, and so on.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I thank the Minister for his kind reply, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $28,111,410 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates

The sum of $3,137,600 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates,

Head T -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DAA 1101.

Sir, many pieces of land have been acquired by the Government, but they have been found to be of very little use and are therefore left vacant. To quote an example, a few years ago I spoke about the vacant ground of the old Raffles Institution. The Minister had then replied that a 70-storey building would be constructed at this place. Some years have already passed and we are still waiting for action to be taken. Why is there such a delay? Could not this land be used more productively in some other way? The purpose of my bringing up this issue is because many people have been grumbling when their land is acquired by the Government. In most cases they have to accept whatever compensation is given. But after that, we find the land seems to be left vacant. Why bother the people if the land is going to be left vacant? We must make sure that whatever land is acquired is used productively.

The Minister for Law and the Environment (Mr E. W. Barker): Sir, the Member for Anson is playing the same tune on his organ grinder in this House for several years. But then the Prime Minister has got plenty of time for him. So have you, Mr Speaker, and so have I.

He refers to land being acquired and then left unused, and he cites just one example -Raffles Institution. May I point out to this House that Raffles Institution was not acquired by Government. It has always belonged to us. It is only that Raffles Institution went to a new site. To put it straight. the site itself was sold by Government to the Development Bank of Singapore. It is the Development Bank of Singapore that is taking a long time to build. In the meanwhile, of course, we have not just left it as useless land. We replanted the grass and our younger citizens are having a good time playing soccer there. The land is being made use of by many schools.

As for other sites, when a site is encumbered, it takes a long time to clear the land, especially if there are squatters. In order to move people, you have to find them homes. Having found them homes, there may be other encumbrances. As far as is possible, we do not leave vacant land alone because it takes time to build. We have to get planning approval and we have to get the finance in some cases

But let me assure the Member that the Government does not acquire land unless it is required for some public purpose. If any piece of land has been cleared and is vacant, just like Raffles Institution, which incidentally again was not acquired, there are good reasons for the delay. If the Member is interested in further details about the Raffles Institution site, I am prepared to give it to him. I am just wondering whether he is an old boy of Raffles. Would the Member like more particulars about what is going to happen to the site?

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes.

Mr Barker: Then I had better refer to my file. The project itself is currently designed for the construction of a hotel, convention, shopping, recreational, and office complex, with a built-up area of about 360,000 square metres. The designs have been substantially completed. In fact, they were completed in the middle of last year and plans have been officially submitted to the competent authority for approval. Currently, the project consultant is completing the detailed drawings, as well as the necessary documents for the invitation of tenders for construction works. These are scheduled to be completed in April 1977. So the Member would not have to wait very long.

Concurrent with the submission of plans, a submission was made to the Ministry of Finance by the DBS with a request for Government equity participation and credit facilities for the development, which is estimated to cost about $540 million. The Government. whilst in favour of encouraging the construction of a hotel and convention centre, has grave doubts on the building of more office and shopping complexes, especially on a scale as big as the project. We feel that consideration should be given to increasing private sector participation in this long delayed project.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I remember that last year the Minister said that the Government was going to build a 70-storey building but now he said that the private sector is going to do it. Anyway I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DCA 1101.

In moving this amendment, I merely wish to raise one or two points concerning the Bases Economic Conversion Division. I remember that this Division was set up because of the British withdrawal of its bases in Singapore. It is already some eight to nine years now, and I wish to seek enlightenment from the Minister for Law and the Environment as to the scope and function of this Division.

5.58 p.m.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

Mr Barker: Sir, the short answer to the Member for Punggol is that the British left so much land behind that the Bases Economic Conversion Division is still operating. The British ruled us for over 150 years. They occupied the best parts of Singapore. I remember, as a little boy living in Yio Chu Kang Road, that there was no Serangoon Gardens and no Member of Parliament for Serangoon Gardens. I used to walk to Seletar in the 1920s to watch the flying boats land. That was when they built Seletar Air Base. Just before the war, they built Tengah Air Base. During the Japanese Occupation, the Japanese built Changi Air Base. Anyone present here who lived during the Occupation would know that there were so many British regiments here.

We had the Manchester Regiment, the Argyles and the Southern Gordon Highlanders. They were all here, including the Indian Regiments such as the Hyderabad Regiment, the Punjab Regiment and the well-known Gurkhas. They were all here living in barracks. So in 1968 when the British announced their intention to pull out, we had to form the Bases Economic Conversion Department, with two main functions: to take over reverted properties and to retrain the workers. Quite a few of our people were employed either by the Royal Air Force, the British Navy, or the British Army, and their services became redundant when the British pulled out. It meant retraining. Hence the Bases Economic Conversion Department.

In spite of the completion of its major functions there are still residual functions. In 1973 the Department was absorbed as a Division in the Land Office. The Division is now primarily concerned with administration of reverted properties, including Asian quarters. If the Member is interested further, out of the original staff of 56 there only remains a nucleus of 19 officers working under the direction of senior staff of the Land Office. The Division is also still concerned with Defence properties which have been made available to the New Zealand forces under the five-power defence agreement and is, in fact, the channel of communication between the ANZAC Forces and the Singapore Government in respect of such properties.

I might mention that as soon as the property came to us there was a big scramble among the various departments. The Ministry of Defence, of course, got most of the land. The University of Singapore now is in Kent Ridge which formerly was a site for residential quarters of army officers, and the NTUC got the Changi Beach Hotel which apparently was used as a holiday resort and which they have moved out now. To mention one fact, the Naval Dockyard at Sembawang had to be converted into a civilian dockyard. Instead of attending to battleships and cruisers, it has to serve merchant ships. It is not easy to convert a naval dockyard into a civilian one, and for that reason we had to employ the firm of Swan & Hunter who did the same job in Malta, and they did a good job here. Apparently, workers in naval ships do not do exactly the same job as on merchant ships. I need not go into further details.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, if I heard it right, the Hon Minister mentioned just now the word "retraining". I wonder if he will be more specific with the term "retraining" services provided by the BECD.

Mr Barker: Yes, Sir. The Training Section of the Bases Economic Conversion Department was responsible for organising the training courses for Base workers affected by the withdrawal and it carried out this function with the assistance of a working committee consisting of the Department's Director of Training and representatives from the Ministries of Education and Labour, the NTUC and the Economic Development Board. A crash training programme consisting of courses of three months duration each at the Singapore Vocational Institute and the Economic Development Board's workshop at River Valley Road and five other technical schools was started in April 1968. A total of about 1,700 Base workers underwent the training courses in turning and fitting, in electrical fitting and installation, motor vehicle mechanics, sheet metal works, welding, plumbing, refrigeration and air-conditioning, woodworking machine operations, woodwork furniture production, engineering drawing, electroplating and basic plastic technology. I hope that satisfies the Member for Punggol.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Sir, I thank the Hon. Minister for such an elaborate answer, and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $9,918,450 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $70,000,000 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head U -

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004.* (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong ).

The "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign initiated by the Ministry of Health in 1968 has lost its momentum and has come to a grinding halt almost immediately after the responsibility of keeping our country clean was taken over by a new Ministry.

An hon. Member: The Ministry of the Environment.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Yes, you have guessed it. It is none other than the Ministry of the Environment. The Ministry seems satisfied to remain status quo. Oddly enough, my complaint may appear unwarranted as not only Singaporeans but also tourists still sing praises of a clean and green Singapore. Everyone notices the clean streets and the greenery lining them, and many comparisons are made when Singaporeans return from overseas and, of course, when tourists visit us.

The Ministry of Health's campaign started off with calculated plans to achieve an objective which it did with a great impact. The methodology was to start off cleaning the main streets and the thoroughfares which almost everyone use, through exhortation, campaigns and then legislation to punish the recalcitrants. Then efforts were shifted to the side-streets with much success. So today we see the clean and green environment whenever we drive or bus down main streets or into side-streets. Then, of course, tragedy struck. The Ministry of the Environment was formed. There was a standstill. Yes, the main streets and side-streets were kept spick and span but nothing beyond that; for a few people - except residents and occasional visitors and, of course, frequent visits to the area by MPs, never VIPs - travel beyond these streets into the kampongs and squatter areas. Members of the House who are unfortunate enough to suffer the same fate - my constituents and I suffer - due to lack of interest shown by the Ministry of the Environment on squatter areas and kampongs will most certainly need no further illustration.

The new-tangled machinery imported by the Ministry to cater to the cleaning of only main streets further illustrates lack of interest to try to beautify our kampongs and squatter areas. No modifications of these machines have been considered to enable them to service the more squalid areas. Greater efforts are necessary to ensure that these congested areas that face greater health and fire risks are kept clean. This will, of course, necessitate greater vigilance by the Ministry. I am not suggesting a "Keep the Singapore kampongs and squatter areas clean" campaign. Perish the thought.

As I said earlier, Sir, the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign sufficed. I am only asking for an active follow-up to that very successful campaign by the Ministry of Health nine years ago. Must I enumerate the ills the community will suffer if this is not done in double quick time? Sanitary refuse disposal and a clean environment are essential to community health. Refuse has been shown to be important as a breeding ground and food source for rats - not rat-catchers - flies and other potential carriers of diseases of man. Rubbish has also been found to be a significant factor in the incidence of building fires.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, under this subhead I would like to ask the Minister two questions.

Firstly, I would like to touch upon the modern sanitation in the rural areas. Recently, in my constituency many farmers have received notices to the effect that the Ministry of the Environment is asking them to install sanitary system. In the case of farmers in the water catchment areas, of course. nobody would object to this request. But the Ministry of the Environment stipulates that the farmers are required to install within two months the sanitary system by contractors to be named by the Ministry.

I have made enquiries. According to the farmers. they will have to pay about $2,000 for one sanitary system and it would take some two weeks to build one. So many of them have to install modern sanitation within so short a time of two months, and it is to be done by the contractors named by the Ministry. This gives rise to some problems. First the time is too short, and because they have to do it so quickly the cost will go up too. I would like to ask the Minister whether it would be possible to give them some kind of a concession by way of financial aid or some other assistance. I would like to ask the Ministry of the Environment whether they can give them 50% grant or one-third of the financial cost involved. If this is not possible, then will it be possible for the Development Bank of Singapore, by special arrangement. to give them some kind of interest-free loan or, if that is not possible, a low-interest loan, so that these farmers will be able to build their sanitary system according to the requirements.

6.15 p.m.

The next question is whether it will be possible for the farmers to get their own contractors to do the job. Some of the farmers are masons, and they can therefore do the work themselves. The third point is whether the time limit can be extended. Instead of two months, can it be extended to three or six months? This is to give them enough time. The farmers are prepared to cooperate with the Government but they should not be forced to do it quickly and at such a high cost.

The next point is in relation to the medical examination of hawkers in the food centres. In my constituency many hawkers have been repeatedly asked to go for medical examination by the Ministry of the Environment. Of course, basically there is nothing wrong with this as it will ensure that food handlers are in good health and free from infectious diseases. But in terms of procedure, I think some improvement is possible. According to the present practice, hawkers notified for medical examination are required to go en bloc to the hospital before 8.00 a.m. for their medical examination. This medical examination will take more than one morning. Some will have to go for three days or even one whole week. Now if we want all the hawkers to go together, they have to wait until 10, 11 or 12 o'clock. I ask whether it is possible to simplify the procedure so as not to give them so much trouble. Just imagine requiring them to go for so many days in the morning when morning is their peak hour. They should not be made to incur losses as a result of medical examination. Then, of course, in terms of timing, I would suggest that they can be asked to appear for medical examination in batches at staggered times, instead of all at the same time before 8.00 a.m. I hope the Minister will give me a favourable reply.

Mr Barker: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, without wanting to knock heads together, as one MP saying that the Ministry of the Environment has gone to sleep ever since it was first started under my predecessor, Mr Lim Kim San, and the Member for Jurong grumbling about the measures we take to install modern sanitation or when we give jabs to hawkers, perhaps they should change constituencies. But since the Member for Jurong spoke in a more modest pleading tone, I think I should deal with him first.

The Member is well aware that the development of the PUB western catchment reservoir scheme has made it necessary for farmers to install a simple sanitary system. But I agree with the Member that two months' notice is too short and the Sewerage Department will extend this period to six months or even more if the Member pleads again. Whilst the Ministry is prepared to offer advice to the farmers on the construction of the sanitary system, it is regretted that we are unable to give any subsidy. We have made inquiries from the Development Bank of Singapore, but I am afraid that they are governed by their lending terms. They are governed by normal banking practice and principles and they will not be able to give subsidised loans.

As for mass inoculation, there was an exercise for hawkers as a prevention against typhoid fever from 1st September. 1975 to 27th April, 1 976 at various markets and food centres. This was done promptly and the hawkers were not required to wait for long periods. But I think the hon. Member is referring to the screening of hawkers at the Middleton Hospital for typhoid and other gastrointestinal diseases. For such cases more time is required for the necessary medical examinations which include the taking of stools and blood samples. But if the Member is complaining about delays outside the hospital, I will certainly look into his request if he gives me more information.

If I may deal with the Member for Potong Pasir. The way he opened up, I thought the whole of Singapore is dirty. But at least the Member admitted that though nothing much has been done, our main streets and side-streets are still clean. It is not only for tourists. It is for us. We have mechanical sweepers. We imported them at considerable costs. It makes sweeping of roads, which are tarmac or concrete, easy. It saves labour. But unfortunately these mechanical sweepers cannot go into all kampongs, nor will they do any good if they sweep sandy roads. Unfortunately, even some of our lorries which carry rubbish cannot go into every kampong, and it is for that reason that perhaps the kampongs are dirtier than the main streets. But perhaps the Member for Potong Pasir is only talking about Potong Pasir kampong. Come to Tanglin. We have kampongs from the Botanic Gardens right down to Race Course Road.

Mr Ivan Baptist: That is because the Minister for the Environment is in that constituency

Mr Barker: That is what somebody else has said. But our kampongs are relatively clean. It really depends on the people living in the kampongs. You can sweep your rubbish and burn it if you like, if our lorries do not come. But the fact is that our refuse collection vehicles collect rubbish every day, including Sundays. Without a daily refuse collection service, I think our roads would be dirtier. I am afraid we cannot deploy more workmen to remove refuse in kampongs. But every effort is being made with approaches to the Ministry of Finance to employ more labour. But should there be heaps of rubbish in any of the constituencies, all they have to do is to telephone the Ministry of the Environment and we will send one lorry, and if that is not enough, we will send more. That is an assurance I give the Member. If he cannot get me, get my Parliamentary Secretary or my Permanent Secretary.

As for campaigns, I think too many Campaigns sometimes lose their own force. We have had so many campaigns that I think, sometimes the public is a little tired of campaigns. I have had a few myself. for instance. "Keep the city green". We had a campaign to clean up the schools in which I, as the Member for Tanglin, visited many schools and all the children were working there. But what happened. At the end of the day it was the Ministry of the Environment that had to spend the next week collecting the rubbish from all the schools. So if he has got rubbish in his kampongs or his constituency all he has to do is to give us a ring.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, with that assurance I have Hobson's choice but to beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Ang Kok Peng (Buona Vista): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1101* (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Lee Yiok Seng)

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in moving this amendment I do not intend to belittle the efforts of the Ministry of the Environment; on the contrary, I wish to congratulate the Hon. Minister for looking after the environment of Singapore so wonderfully well. He has set a very high standard of environmental health and his Ministry has measured up to it remarkably well. Hence, a clean and green Singapore, among the best in public health.

However, there are still areas for improvement. Sir, in the Addendum to the Presidential Address, the Minister for the Environment said that air pollution was on the increase and that anti-pollution measures would have to be enforced more stringently. I cannot agree with him more in this respect. I would, therefore, like to draw his attention to the poor ventilation of the car parks inside some high-rise buildings. The question I would like to pose is whether the Hon. Minister is aware of this fact, and whether any measure has been taken to rectify the situation and also to ascertain the health hazards to personnel working for long periods of time in such places.

The second matter I would like to raise is that on the use of ultra-violet light for decorative purposes and for producing certain stage effects, especially in places of entertainment. As the Minister is aware that ultra-violet light is harmful to human eyes and skin, would he therefore consider taking appropriate measures to dissuade the public from using ultra-violet light for such purposes.

Mr Lee Yiok Seng (Bukit Panjang): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, my colleague has told us just now that the Ministry of the Environment has done very well in looking after the environmental health of Singapore. I agree with him. But there are always two sides to a story. Although you may be successful in one aspect some other matters are affected. The Hon. Minister in his efforts to enhance the environmental health has given rise to some other problems. I would like to let him know of these problems. In the rural areas, for example, many families are engaged in the preparation and operation of a great variety of food. In addition to the manufacture of food, they are also engaged in selling coffee, cooked food, cake making, biscuits, bread, taohu, taokua bean curd, fish ball, etc. This family business provides the supply of cooked food and other prepared food for neighbouring residents in the rural areas and for the hawkers in the vicinity. This kind of business is run on a family basis, a small-time business. Everybody in the family works hard and they depend on this small business for their livelihood. These people have been doing such business for many, many years. Many of them have inherited their business from their ancestors for a few decades. At least, some of them have five to six years' history in doing this kind of business. Although they are running a small business, the whole family depends on this kind of business for their livelihood and they are able to live quite happily.

6.30 p.m.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, as I have said earlier in this House, the people in the rural areas are not so well versed in Government administration and the organisation of the Government departments. These people only know how to make use of their own effort and labour to do a small business in their own homes for a living. They think there is nothing wrong in doing this kind of business. As far as they can see, this is not a crime. Neither do they know that they have to apply to the Ministry of the Environment for Iicences to operate such business. In fact, right from the very beginning when they started such business, no Government officers had ever informed them of the requirement to apply for a licence to operate such a business. So all along they have been dependent on business as their sole means of livelihood. Now the situation is different. When officers from the Environmental Health Section of the Ministry come to notice the existence of this business, they would send out letters asking them to stop operations forthwith and also informing them of the requirement to apply for licences, however long they might have been operating. These people are also told that they have been doing illegal business all this time as unauthorised eating houses or unauthorised food manufacturers. The modus operandi of this Department is this. First they start off politely - give you a letter or notice to stop your business, and if it is not complied with, a summons will be issued. Then you know you will be fined or have to pay a composition in lieu of a fine. Then the money paid can get one out of trouble. After the payment of a fine on composition, if the order is not complied with, then the premises will be required to be demolished. Otherwise official action will be taken to demolish the premises.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is too strict an enforcement because the livelihood of these people is threatened. How are they going to earn their living? This method of the ends justifying the means does not care for the difficulty and the plight of these people. It is too rigid and not humane. This would give rise to a lot of hardship to these people. I would therefore plead for flexibility and leniency in dealing with such cases. I will therefore propose to the Minister concerned two alternative propositions to help them.

The first is to issue them with temporary licences for these small business operations for a few more years to enable them to carry on their business while they try to change their method of earning a living. The alternative is to give these people a hawker licence and allocate them a hawker stall so that they have some other alternative means of livelihood. When I suggest the method of issuing hawker licences to these people, I hope the Minister will inform the Hawkers' Department to issue or grant licences directly to such people, so that they will not have to be confronted with a lot of frustrating conditions to be imposed by the Hawkers' Department resulting in the rejection of their applications. This is my hope which I pray the Minister will consider sympathetically.

Mr Barker: Sir, the Member for Buona Vista raised two points - one on car parks and the other on ultra-violet lighting in nightclubs. Some of the Members here had better watch it!

As for car parks, as a preventive measure, action is now being taken. In fact, it should have been taken long ago at the planning stage by the Building Control Division to incorporate requirements for satisfactory ventilation. But my Ministry has been aware of the poor ventilation of some car parks especially in high-rise buildings. The Anti-Pollution Unit has been conducting surveys on the level of carbon monoxide in a number of car parks. Where the level was high, the owners of the car parks have been notified to improve the ventilation and they have done so. The Unit further carries out surveys at these car parks regularly to see that the level of carbon monoxide does not rise too high.

As for nightclubs and ultra-violet lights, the flashing lights are used in nightclubs for decorative purposes and for producing stage effects on entertainers and guests. But the amount of ultra-violet light produced by these lights is very small. We can take comfort that its effective range is less than two feet. Apart from the effects of these flashing lights on the eyes, it has no real harmful health effects, especially when one is exposed to these lights for a very short duration.

As for the Member for Bukit Panjang, in order to ensure that the food intended for sale is fit for human consumption and is hygienically prepared, basic and essential health requirements have to be observed. Hence these notices on the food manufacturers in Bukit Panjang who have been unable to meet with these requirements. It is not in the interest of the public and, in fact, against our health laws to issue such operators with a licence. I am against issuing temporary licences. Once a temporary licence is issued, it has a sense of permanency and when we take it away there is always trouble. It is better to give them time even if they are unauthorised rather than to give some authorisation by way of a piece of paper called a licence. It is better to give a reasonable grace period to the food manufacturer to wind up his business.

My short answer to the Member in respect of his request for hawker licences to be issued to such manufacturers and stalls to be provided, is "No". But they have a chance if they qualify on the grounds of hardship. As for hardship. I leave it for a while. Members have plenty of time to argue with my Parliamentary Secretary when he gets on his feet to tell what is the definition of "hardship cases". But perhaps we should find a new category so that we can accommodate people or small food manufacturers of the type the Member for Bukit Panjang has spoken about.

But there are always dangers and if I may just cite one case. We had typhoid fever spreading in a certain place. On investigations, we found that all the patients had eaten nasi lemak. I need not translate that for you. It was prepared by just one person. We were fast enough to stop it These are small food manufacturers. They prepared the nasi lemak or whatever it is and they sell. In this particular case, we were very lucky because we got to the source of the infection. Hence we have got to be very careful. I am not suggesting that people should not buy nasi lemak; this case has been cleared up. But this is just an example to show that we must always be conscious of the fact that food manufacturers can spread disease, and if Members do not want to get typhoid, do not buy ice cream from unauthorised vendors or ice water sellers. That is the major source of typhoid in this country. Most of the time when there is an outbreak of typhoid, it is traced to someone selling either ice water or ice drinks or even in some cases ice cream. But let me not frighten Members further.

Dr Ang Kok Peng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, in fact, I have very carefully avoided the term "nightclubs". I just mentioned for decorative purposes and for producing certain stage effects especially in places of entertainment. I am sure the Minister is aware that there are many places of entertainment which are not nightclubs and yet his explanation seems to confine to nightclubs.

Sir, the Minister's excellence is not in the area of the technical field, and though his cursory comment on ultra-violet lights is unsatisfactory, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Mr Barker: Sir, may I say that I was making no references to the hon. Member for Buona Vista going to nightclubs or as a frequenter of nightclubs. I thought he was merely referring to nightclubs. Of course, I realise that there are other places of entertainment where decorative lights are used whether it is the National Theatre or elsewhere.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BBA 1101.

Sir, I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the refuse collection centre located near residences and markets. For most of the day, the place looks all right and there is no smell coming from it. But at certain times of the day when the refuse is being collected by the trucks, the stench is most over-powering. Could the Environment Ministry look into this and perhaps use some odour-killing agent to get rid of the smell as soon as possible after the rubbish has been collected?

6.45 p.m.

Mr Barker: The hon. Member has made a difficult request. If there is rubbish, there is smell. On the odour problem from rubbish chutes and bin centres, especially in housing estates, I would like to inform the Member that refuse is removed by the Housing and Development Board every day from the chutes to the bin centres and from the bin centres by the Ministry of the Environment to the disposal ground. The refuse chutes and bin centres are washed daily. What is it that he wants us to spread? Eau de cologne?

There must be smell and nuisance if domestic refuse is wet and decomposes rapidly in hot weather. Perhaps householders could help to improve the situation by putting wet and organic refuse in plastic bags before disposing them into the refuse chutes. Another measure being undertaken by the Housing and Development Board is the provision of roofs for bin centres to keep out the rain and the sun. This would help keep the refuse dry and reduce the odour and the temperature down. Without wanting to pull the leg of the Member for Telok Blangah, all I can say is that it is difficult.

Rubbish smells and sometimes the smell is terrible. Even when the Ministry of the Environment's lorry passes you, you cannot get away from the smell, especially if the lorry is leaking. But we will certainly look into his request and see what can be done to minimise the odour that comes from these bin centres.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, in view of the reply from the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BCA 1101.

Sir, when the cremation of dead bodies in gas chambers was introduced, there were numerous problems posed by the Hindu community because of the traditional last rites which have to be observed. This has been thrashed out in the many discussions held in the past by the various authorities concerned. In one of the discussions, it was decided that the last cremation at 3 o'clock p.m. was to be extended to 4 o'clock p.m.

However, now we have a fresh problem in regard to the crematorium. It appears that at the Mount Vernon Crematorium there is a very heavy booking for the cremation of bodies by the various communities. As such, the time given by the staff of the crematorium to an applicant for a cremation in most cases is not suitable. I have received many complaints on this matter, because alternative arrangements for the funeral have to be made. Sometimes they even have to postpone for a day because of the non-availability of the crematorium According to Hindu custom you can only keep the body for 24 hours. Even the staff attached to the crematorium could not help the people in any way.

This problem did not exist in the past. Why is the people being inconvenienced now? Something should be done immediately to rectify the situation. Just to quote you a case. A few weeks ago on a Sunday, the breadwinner of a family passed away in the Singapore General Hospital. His body could not be released till the following day because of a post-mortem. On the following Monday at 10 a.m. after the post-mortem, a relative and a friend collected the death certificate from the mortuary and rushed down to the Mount Vernon Crematorium at 11 am, to make arrangements for the funeral to take place in the afternoon. But to their disappointment, the person in charge told them that the body could only be brought in at 1 p.m. and at no other time. These two persons could not decide on the suggested time, because of the very short notice Therefore, they rushed back to town to consult with the eldest son of the deceased. Later, as time was so short, the family of the deceased decided reluctantly to bury the body.

So the relative who was making the arrangements had to rush back to Mount Vernon Crematorium to take back the death certificate and then back to the mortuary to get it altered for a burial. And finally, the casket company had to make the arrangements for a burial.

Five days later, there was another funeral. Here again, the deceased passed away in the Singapore General Hospital on a Friday and a post-mortem had to be carried out on the following day, because the family of the deceased were ignorant of the post-mortem procedure whereby a member of the family would be required by the pathologist and coroner to identify the body. This dead person was supposed to be cremated on the following day, Saturday. But it had to be postponed to Sunday because of heavy bookings at the crematorium. Sir, why should so much problems be caused to people who have to fight against time to make arrangements for funerals?

It is observed that only two gas chambers have been allocated for Hindu cremations. Furthermore, other communities are also using the same place. That is why the bookings are heavy. Something must be done to improve this situation. Previously there were nine chambers for cremation but now there are only two. These two are not only for the Hindus but for the other races as well. How can they be sufficient? According to Hindu custom once you take the body to the crematorium you cannot bring it back to the home or for burial. That is very important. The Hindu Sabai has also sent a letter to the Ministry of Social Affairs regarding this matter. I am indeed rather surprised that an assurance was given sometime ago that the bodies could be brought in after 3 p.m. for cremation and now there is so much problem caused to mourners.

Sir, I urge the Minister to settle this problem once and for all. Otherwise, it is better to go back to the old system.

Sir, I think the Minister understands the Hindu tradition. If the present two chambers are not sufficient for cremation, then go back to the old system where there were more places for cremation. I hope the Minister will look into this matter seriously.

Mr Barker: Sir, may I say with respect to the Member for Anson that it would be a retrograde step to go back to the old system. The number of cremations in the Mount Vernon Crematorium has been about 10 per day for the last six months. The seven cremators are able to cope with 15 cremations per day. It is not our policy to go against any custom or rites, whether they be Hindu, Muslim, Christian or others. That certainly is not Government's policy. When we first started this new crematorium the Hindu Advisory Board made certain representations and we listened to them. We had meetings with them, at which the Member was present, and most of their recommendations were accepted.

As for the time, previously it was 3.00 p.m. for the last cremation. Now it is being extended to 4.00 p.m. We would like to extend it to 5.00 p.m. and have taken up the question of recruiting more staff with the Ministry of Finance. I hope we succeed. The choice of the time for cremation is left to the family of the deceased but it is not easy to satisfy everybody. If the cremator has been booked for the time chosen, the applicant is offered an alternative time for cremation on the same day.

In the first case mentioned by the Member, an alternative time was offered but was not accepted by the relatives. Our records show that bookings on Saturdays for the past two weeks had not been heavy and no relatives who applied for cremation were turned away without being offered an alternative time for cremation on the same day.

For the information of the Member, of the seven cremators available, three have been modified to suit Hindu cremation. For an average of 20 Hindu cremations per month, the facilities appear to be more than adequate to meet the needs of the community. Should circumstances show that more cremators are needed, these will be provided.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, we had a meeting with the Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of Social Affairs. At that time we agreed in principle to the amendments made. But since then we have had many troubles. Sometimes the crematorium is fully booked and they have to keep the bodies either at home or in the mortuary. The Hindu people have been pressing the Hindu Advisory Board on this matter. Today I have mentioned about the Hindu Sabai sending a letter to the Ministry of Social Affairs regarding this matter. The Hon. Minister will have to reconsider this matter. I think he understands the position. I beg the Minister to do it for the general public. I hope the Minister will do it. Anyway, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Haji Rahmat Bin Kenap (Geylang Serai): (In Malay): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head U be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BGA 1101*. (*The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs P Govindaswamy, Ahmad Haleem, Lee Yiok Seng, Ng Kah Ting, Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin and Dr Ong Leong Boon.)

Sir, Geylang Serai area will soon have a market. The construction of this market will be completed shortly and it is located at Haig Road. Since a market is a vital necessity for the everyday life of all strata of society, it is therefore imperative that the Hawkers Department organise the layout in a proper manner. It is possible that in this particular market there will be stalls selling fish, vegetables, meat, piece goods and also food stalls. In other words, this will be a multipurpose market.

7.00 p.m.

My only wish is that no friction and suspicion will arise between Muslims and non-Muslims. Therefore, may I ask whether provision will be made to sell pork in this market. If so, I seek the assurance of the Hawkers Department that the pork stalls will not be sited within close proximity of the beef and mutton stalls. The same goes for cooked food stalls. The allocation of Muslim cooked food stalls and non-Muslim cooked food stalls must strike a balance to reflect the local conditions and distribution of population within the area. In this way, it will attract customers and tourists who would like to frequent Geylang Serai.

The residents of Geylang Serai who live on a scanty livelihood should be given the opportunity to do business in this market. Besides resettling hawkers who are affected by development projects, I hope consultation between the Hawkers Department and the Member of Parliament for the constituency could be held as and when necessary to complement efforts to resolve the hawker problem and at the same time upgrade the standard of the market.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, there are some 28,750 licensed hawkers at the moment. Out of this, 17,000 are already sited within premises. There are still 11,750 hawkers who need to be resited from the streets. When are they going to be resited? What measures are being taken to resite the hawkers in Anson Constituency? What plans are being drawn up for building hawker centres in Anson Constituency?

Sir, the Hawkers Department says that it would not issue any new licences because the present 28,750 licensed hawkers in Singapore are sufficient to cater for our population. Can the Minister say actually how many of the licensees are really looking after the stall? It is observed that many licences have been sub-let. Why is this allowed?

I understand that in some instances the Hawkers Department is de-registering some of the hawkers and asking them to go back to their place of residence for their business. What is the reason for this move? This will cause unnecessary hardship and headache. For example, the hawkers at Anson constituency after having been in business in that place for over 10 years are told to go to another place, like Telok Blangah. Is this really necessary? Is it not possible to resite the hawkers within that particular area? Or give them an option to either remain in that particular area or to be resited elsewhere. Many of the hawkers are really unhappy about this move. How could they go to a new place to sell a product or food which they have been selling in another area for so long and where they generally have their customers' goodwill? One way of solving this problem is to give an option for those who have been in business for more than 10 years to either remain at the `existing place or go back to their place of residence.

What measures are being taken by the Hawkers Department to control the prices charged by the hawkers? I must at this time point out that price tagging has been implemented in many foodstalls and hawker centres. Yet the prices are still stiff. Despite the fact that the prices of certain commodities have gone down, many hawkers have made no attempt whatsoever to either reduce the price of food they sell or increase the quantity of food. No one is seen to check the price that is being quoted. I suggest that the Enforcement Section should check on this, otherwise the people will be swindled by the hawkers. Previously, a bowl of kway teow costs 30 cents.

Mr Ho See Beng: Mee goreng.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: No, kway teow. But now for 80 cents, the quantity is the same as for 30 cents previously. The price has been increased but the quantity remains the same.

This Enforcement Section must play an active role at places where the hawkers find that the people are in demand for their food or drink. Thus, they increase their prices like nobody's business. A strict check should be made at these places.

Sir, it has been reported that pasar malam, a common sight in Singapore, is slowly being phased out. In fact, many of them are being de-registered and they have been told that their licences would not be renewed. This has brought about some hardship to some of them. May I suggest that instead of withdrawing their licences, they should be resited at some other suitable place where there is no obstruction to traffic. Pasar malam is a convenient temporary shopping centre for many housewives and workers who cannot shop in the day time. Pasar malam has been a colourful scene of Singapore's night life

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, currently four different bodies operate hawker centres, namely, the Housing and Development Board, Jurong Town Corporation, Port of Singapore Authority and also the Ministry of the Environment. The question I would like to ask the Ministry of the Environment is whether it could look into the standardisation of licences At the moment the HDB's licence and the Ministry's licence are the same, but the stallholders' licences issued by the Port of Singapore Authority are different, I think if we could standardise the licences it would be very helpful to all.

The second part of my question concerns what I have already brought up earlier today. This is in regard to the cooperative hawker licence for senior citizens. I would like to ask the Ministry to look into this and see whether it is feasible to issue cooperative licence to four or five of our old-age citizens so that they can operate it and be economically independent.

Mr Lee Yiok Seng: (In Mandarin): Sir, for the past few years the Hawkers Department has put in great efforts in trying to control unauthorised hawkers. This is, of course, commendable because these unauthorised hawkers should be got rid of; otherwise everybody can become a street hawker and then there will be unauthorised hawkers all over Singapore, with undesirable consequences. So the efforts of the Hawkers Department should be commended.

But, Sir, when I really think of the effect of such efforts, I have the feeling that all these years they have wasted their time, because even up till today we can still see unauthorised hawkers in Singapore. In this House, we have been talking about the problem of unauthorised hawkers quite often. Why should this be so? I feel that perhaps we have not been handling the hawker problem properly. So I would like to ask the Minister whether there are any new plans to solve the problem of unauthorised hawkers in Singapore. If there is no new plan, I wonder how long or how many years more will it take to achieve the objective of getting rid of unauthorised hawkers in Singapore.

This leads me to another matter. As far as I am aware, officers of the Hawkers Department have to undergo several months' training before they are allotted duties in the various areas to handle the problems of unauthorised hawkers. Those who have special training should actually perform well in their duties, but very often we hear complaints from the people against the performance of these officers as being either unsatisfactory or conducive to causing resentment. These hawker inspectors are often seen chasing hawkers very rashly and rudely. These officers are seen in places where there is a congregation of hawkers or unauthorised hawkers, playing the game of hide and seek with hawkers, They will be running after the hawkers. Sometimes the hot pursuit by these hawker inspectors even involve pedestrians, who are knocked down and suffer abrasions or they get a fright. Sometimes, this kind of chase will result in a big fight in the street. Such a fight may result in court cases and in the end who suffers? The officers of the Hawkers Department seem to take a great interest in this what I call "hide and seek" game. They even chase the hawkers right into the shops and private houses and they even take away goods purchased by others as exhibits or evidence against the hawkers. This is very rash and I really believe that sometimes they do mistake innocent people as unauthorised hawkers. If there is such a case, this is very serious. I wonder whether the Ministry concerned has got any such information. If so, they should let us know.

Sir, arising out of what I have said. I would like to ask the Minister concerned whether the Hawkers Department has any scheme or method to change and improve the discourteous manners of these officers, or whether there will be any effective training courses to rectify and correct this wrong attitude of these hawker inspectors.

The Chairman: Mr Ng Kah Ting and Haji Sha'ari are not here. Dr Ong Leong Boon.

7.15 p.m.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, I am actually taking this opportunity to speak on behalf of my constituents in Kim Seng where I am sure the Senior Parliamentary Secretary is aware that something like 45% of the housing units are one-room flats and therefore the social problems are fairly enormous. I have therefore come across very many cases weekly asking for hawker licences. However, it is my experience that more than 99% of these cases do not meet with success. Whether this is a reflection of the MP's popularity with the Hawkers Department. I do not know. I would like to think otherwise.

But it really makes me think that the conditions or stipulations for the issue of hawker licences need to be redefined Sir, we are pretty aware of the three or four conditions which are normally stipulated: First, licences for stalls will be issued to resettlement cases The second category comprises the public assistance recipients and the third category comprises those deserving cases. Of course, all these applicants must be 40 years and above. Sir, I find that although a Hawkers' Coordinating Committee has been formed. there are still a certain amount of administrative or procedural difficulties for applicants. It is not uncommon for the applicants to be shuttled from the Housing and Development Board Area Office to the 14th storey Hawkers' Department at Alexandra Circus, causing a certain amount of confusion and difficulty to the applicants.

Sir, on top of this, there is the issue of stalls at school tuckshops. This has created a certain amount of confusion. I would like the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to advise us as to whether the Hawkers Department has any say whatsoever with regard to the issue of licences for tuckshop stalls at schools and whether the same guidelines apply, I think there should be a common ruling and there should be a common committee where the issue of such licences may be considered and centralised,

Sir, with regard to the requirement that application from a public assistance recipient will be considered with favour, I think there is a certain problem here. It is my experience, and I am sure it is shared by several of my colleagues here, that many of our Asian citizens feel that it is well below their dignity to go to the Social Welfare Department to apply for public assistance. We do have a good number of cases where although the persons concerned do not have a card to say that they are public assistance recipients, they are in actual fact genuinely poor and deserve public assistance. The clever ones would, of course, readily go to the Social Welfare Department and get the public assistance which is one of the shortest routes to obtaining a hawker's licence. I am suggesting, therefore, that this is in a sense a loophole and a convenient way for some people to get a licence. But on the other hand, there are genuine cases where the applicants should be given hawker licences, but because they are not public assistance recipients, and in a sense by default, they could not very well qualify for the issue of a hawker licence.

With regard to the question of age. I know that it is correct to insist that the young should apply for some other work and that the older people be given a softer and less physically demanding job like hawking. However, at times we do come across some cases where they may be, say, an aged widow between 31 and 35 years with a few dependants and, under such circumstances, it is rather difficult for this lady to try to fit into the normal employment hours say, from 9.00 a.m. to 5 p.m. I hope the Hawkers Department will consider such cases with favour and adopt a more realistic and understanding approach and perhaps issue licences to this category of people.

Sir, the next point really concerns the definition of "deserving cases". We have come across cases where applicants have been turned down on the ground that the total family income is, say, $300. I would like to say that lumping together the earnings of various members of a household may not necessarily reflect the total family income. Take, for example, the case of two old parents with, say, two children. It is assumed that in a sense the earnings of the son or the daughter added together with the parents' income may be about $300 and that the children would contribute readily towards the total family income. But we know that there are many social problems. If the children are not filial, therefore we have a situation where, because the children do earn a certain sum of money, the Hawkers Department fails to understand that they do not contribute towards the welfare of the family as a whole, then the elderly couple are left in a very difficult situation. Therefore, this leads me to ask the Hawkers' Department to give sympathetic consideration to such cases. These old and elderly applicants with problem kids should be given some leeway and the Hawkers Department should not be too stingy in the issue of a hawker licence to them.

Sir, time has changed. The cost of living has gone up a fair bit over the last few years and, therefore, I think there is a need to redefine poverty level. I should hope that the Ministry would consider this point and modify the provisions requiring a person to prove that he or she is deserving.

Sir, the last point is really one of asking the Hawkers Department to try to help us when it comes to the question of the possibility of helping the applicants to get hawker licences. In this respect, I would therefore ask the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to let us have some idea of his projections regarding the development of hawker centres or the availability of hawker stalls in the future, and what ideas he might have or plans he already has with regard to the provision of hawker stalls to cater to the population of two million people, and in addition 1.5 million tourists and a floating population of 120,000 people.

The Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment (Mr Chor Yeok Eng): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, several Members have raised various questions touching on the Hawkers Department under the Ministry of the Environment. They have made certain criticisms, In view of the time factor, I will just give some brief answers.

First of all, let me touch upon what the Member for Kim Seng and others have mentioned in this House over the past few days. On the definition of hardship cases, briefly speaking, the term includes cases where the head of the family is unemployed, or physically incapacitated, and the family earning a total family income of not more than $250, and those who are recipients of public assistance. This also includes certain resettlement cases where the people are affected by the Government's development plans but could not get compensation as farmers. All these are hardship cases. They come under the definition of hardship cases.

The Member for Kim Seng has mentioned another point. In fact, he has mentioned several points. I would just like to touch upon his point on the age limit. Generally speaking, we say that the minimum age is 40 years and above. Concerning the young widows or people who have particular difficulties financially, then of course we will give special consideration. There are no hard and fast rules and strict application regarding the rules of 40 years of age, and so on.

As regards the total income of $250 month, it is also not rigidly adhered to, We do give some allowance where the family concerned is big and is getting more than this amount slightly but who have a special need to spend more. We will consider the merits of each case and make a special decision or give them some allowance if they deserve. The principles serve mainly as guidelines.

On the allocation of tuckshop stalls in the schools, there is an allocation committee under the Ministry of Education; so this is not directly under the control of the Hawkers Department. I refer particularly to stalls in the school tuckshops or canteens. Since many Members are not quite familiar with the point regarding the 5% of stalls allotted to certain people, I would like to clarify. Regarding the 5% stalls allotted to certain hardship cases, this only applies to newly built markets or food centres on first balloting of stalls. If there are subsequent vacancies in these new markets or food centres or in respect of old markets, then such cases are not within the 5% scope. They do not come under the scope of 5% allocation of stalls any more. Maybe some people will ask why in recent years the Government has been so strict in issuing licences to hawkers. The main reason is that for the long-term policy of the Government we want all the open air hawkers to move into sheltered hawker centres in order to achieve our anti-pollution policy. It is also meant to raise our standard of public hygiene.

7.30 p.m.

I think Members are aware that the cost of constructing new markets/food centres has increased with the average cost per stall ranging from $10,000 to $15,000. So under these circumstances, we have to consider this matter carefully. Some Members have also asked whether we should increase the 5% stalls to a higher percentage. After my explanation I believe they can understand that at the moment it is not necessary or not possible to raise the 5% allocation in new markets to a higher percentage. We will not give it any prior consideration for the time being.

Another matter touched upon by the Member for Bukit Panjang relates to the work of our department. He mentioned the attitude of certain hawker inspectors when carrying out their duty and asked whether they are given a period of training. Here I would like to explain in detail so that they can understand better. When new staff are recruited, everyone of them would be sent for a period of at least half a year in the basic principles of dealing with the public so as to get them familiar with public relations. Not only new recruits are trained, but also old and senior staff are sent for refresher course in the hope that this will raise their efficiency.

On the other hand, a fact we should recognise is that all those officers concerned with the work of enforcement, are carrying out difficult tasks. They have to face occupational hazards. When carrying out their duty they are usually faced with difficult situations. It is quite risky in certain circumstances and the public do not understand them well. While they are faced with various difficulties, they do not receive any psychological encouragement at all. Therefore, there have been frequent resignations from these people. So sometimes it is difficult for us to arrange such staff for our work.

Generally speaking. I can say that we have already achieved our purpose or objective in tackling the hawker problem. Of course, there cannot be perfection all round. Certain problems still remain to be solved. It is only natural. I also said that in dealing with unlicensed hawkers, there could be unpleasant scenes and sometimes even fighting would take place. But the loser will not only be the unlicensed hawkers but also our staff. Some of our staff have suffered injury in such incidents. Some even had to undergo medical treatment for quite some time. What has come to our notice is that some foreigners were involved in the incidents. So in this respect, we have to enforce our law and protect our citizens' benefits.

The Member for Anson has asked whether markets will be built in Anson constituency or whether food centres will also be built there. Verbally, though not officially, the Member for Punggol has also mentioned about similar questions as to whether markets or food centres will be built in his constituency. My reply here is, taking Anson constituency for example, it is in an urban area and there are already some markets there. As to whether there is a need to build a new market there, it has to depend on future development plans.

Although the Member for Punggol has not made any official request, for his information I would say that in Punggol constituency perhaps it is easier to get the necessary land, As to whether the site will be suitable, again it will have to depend on further discussion and study. If the Member concerned thinks that it is necessary and there is a proper site to build a market or food centre in his constituency. I hope he will raise the matter with us and we will give it serious consideration.

The Member for Anson has raised two points. First. he hopes that we will control the hawker prices or fix the prices of food sold by them in order to be fair to the customers. I doubt whether it would be fair to the hawkers to do so, because they get their supplies from the merchants. So the prices are not within their control. To ask the hawkers to sell at certain prices is not practical. Prices fluctuate according to the market situation. I think it may suffice if they label their prices themselves if they want to.

As regards subletting of hawker licences, we are paying attention to this matter. If there are such irregular practices, then we will take steps to cancel the hawkers' licences of the persons concerned. We will not allow such things to happen.

As regards pasar malam, last week I said in this House, when we receive complaints against the pasar malam stallholders we cannot do otherwise but take action against them. Nevertheless, for their livelihood, we will try to allocate stalls in some markets or food centres for them.

Lastly, several points were raised by the Member for Geylang Serai. As regards the new market at Haig Road how many stalls are there and how many will be allotted to Muslim stallholders and how many to non-Muslim stallholders, my answer is that in this new market there are altogether 218 stalls, of which 146 are stalls for the sale of meat, vegetables and daily consumer goods. The other 72 are meant for the sale of cooked food. As regards how many stalls are to be allocated to Muslim stallholders and to non-Muslim stallholders, it will have to depend on the number of stallholders that will be moved into this market.

The other point is the separation of stalls selling beef and mutton from those selling pork with an appreciable distance between them. Of course, it has always been the Government's policy to separate them well from each other. So we will again properly apply the same policy.

The final point the Member raised is that when a new market is to be opened, whether the MP for that constituency will be invited to officiate at the opening ceremony. This again falls within our usual policy. Whenever a new market is to be opened, we will invite the MP concerned in that area to discuss among other things matters relating to the opening of the market. I believe that the market officials and the people involved with that market have already themselves seen the MP concerned about related matters.

Lastly, as regards the Member for Telok Blangah's point about closer liaison between the Ministry of the Environment and the statutory boards, like the JTC. PSA, the HDB in order to have some kind of common policy in dealing with hawkers, I will say that these four establishments had already in July 1975 set up a Hawkers Coordinating and Licensing Committee to harmonise mutual policies in order to unify the respective policies so that in future there will be a common policy to deal with hawkers' problems and we have now more or less achieved this objective. But in view of different backgrounds, there would be certain differences in the actual implementation of the policy. So it is not easy to change the situation in a short time. However, we are trying our best to overcome these problems.

Finally - I have used this word so many times already - the Member also asked whether the Hawkers Department can issue a joint or co-operative hawker's licence for several people or a group of people to operate a stall jointly. In principle, it may be good for a society, but administratively it will be difficult, because there is the possible problem of subletting. Normally we issue licences to individuals and not to groups of persons. So for the time being we cannot accept this suggestion. I think I have replied to all the questions raised.

7.45 p.m.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: Point of clarification, Sir, Earlier I have indicated to you, Sir, that I was not going to speak on the amendment, but since the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment has made reference to the point that I was going to ask him a question with regard to the possibility of the construction of a hawker centre and not a market in my constituency. I have changed my mind and wish to speak on it now.

Punggol Estate has a market with a hawker centre comprising 30 cooked food stalls. I noted that this was insufficient. So I had occasion to speak to him that I intended to raise this matter, and in his reply he preempted my intention. But since he has been kind to give me that reply which I did not ask for, I would like not only to thank him but ask him or his Ministry whether a hawker centre will be built in that area should a suitable site be found in my constituency.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Sir, at the present moment there is no plan in my Ministry to build a new hawker centre in Punggol, but if the Member concerned can propose a suitable site we will make a serious study of his proposal.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, I asked about licences for old people because under the present policy old people without any school going dependants do not qualify for a hawker licence. Sir, these old people have their self-respect and they do not really want to go to the Social Welfare Department to ask for public assistance. All I am asking is, can the Ministry look into the possibility of issuing hawker licences to these old people. To dismiss it outright is a bit unfair.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): If the Member for Telok Blangah can bring up the hardship cases to our attention we will give special consideration to them.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir,I ask for a hawker centre in the Anson constituency, but he says that there are many markets. Where are the markets? There is only one market at Maxwell Road. I am talking about hawker centres. There are so many hawkers in the Anson constituency. Why do they not want to resite these hawkers in a hawker centre? The Senior Parliamentary Secretary does not always give a proper reply to my question. I want a proper reply.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Sir, in the past there was perhaps one market in Maxwell Road in Anson. Now as the Anson constituency has been enlarged, he now has other markets which include the PSA markets. In any case if the Member for Anson feels there is a further need for a new market, as I have already said, then we have to consider it in the light of any development plan for the constituency. If he has a suitable site to propose then we will certainly consider it.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: (In Tamil): My request is to get a hawker centre in the Anson constituency. Where is he going to dump the hawkers! It is his duty to give them a place. Whenever I ask a question of the Senior Parliamentary Secretary, he never gives a complete answer. He gives an answer as he wishes. This is a fair request that I am asking. We are elected representatives of the people and therefore I am here to request the Senior Parliamentary Secretary on behalf of my people to look after their interests. We are entitled to have proper answers.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Sir, I did not get a translation of the earlier part of the Member's speech in Tamil but I have the latter part of it. The Member for Anson was saying that we have a responsibility to look for a site for a hawker centre. I have already stated earlier that in the short term we have no plans to build a new hawker centre in the Anson constituency. Since the Member for Anson has been a Member for Anson for such a long time, he should know his constituency very well. So if he has any idea I am sure his idea will be very much better than the civil servants' idea. I would like to appeal to him that if he or his CCC feels that there is any suitable site, we will give it very serious consideration.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: (In Tamil): Sir, that is not my duty. That is his duty. He has the responsibility of selecting a place. He must ask the Government to get a place to build the hawker centre. Will he give us a place when we ask for it? If we select a vacant place, will he build us a hawker centre? If we select a corner at Maxwell Road, or a carpark, will he build a hawker centre for us? Please tell us. It is no point talking. We must have action. Yes, I have been serving my constituency for a long time. He has also been serving in that Ministry for a long time. Therefore, he should also be conversant. Now the Anson constituency has been enlarged. I agree. But there is only one hawker centre. We need more hawker centres, Therefore I repeatedly request him for a hawker centre in my constituency.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Member for Anson says that we have to look for a site. Of course, we have been looking for a site all the time. He said that if he were to select a place at a corner of Maxwell Road, or at the cross-roads, an important and busy traffic junction, whether we will be prepared to build a hawker centre there. The question of putting up a hawker centre is not decided by my Ministry alone. I am sure the Member for Anson knows well that before any planning approval is granted, it has to go through several relevant Ministries. It is only when there is a concurrence of ideas between the various Departments and officers concerned that the construction will be approved. So it is not for one particular Ministry to decide on a construction project. We have to consider the overall common interest of the people. It is not as simple as he says, that so long as he selects a place we can put a hawker centre. The matter is not so simple as that.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: (In Tamil): This is his responsibility. Why is he seated there? He has to liaise with the various departments and seek a favourable solution. Therefore, it is his duty to build a hawker centre, wherever a place is available. It is his duty. It is not my duty. I am here to bring the problems of my constituents, and it is his duty to listen to these problems and to seek a solution.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): If he does not bring up the proposal, we will still consider carefully on our own whether there is any suitable site for any hawker centre to be put up.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: (In Tamil): Now I have already brought up this problem: we need a hawker centre in Anson Road. What, else does he need?

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Sir, on principle we said that in the short term we do not have a plan for it, but since the Member feels that there is a need then we will consider it.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, since everybody is taking a keen interest in the debate, I will also take part and join the fun. The Senior Parliamentary Secretary has told this House just now that the Hawkers Department has conducted courses for its new officers. We have frequently heard in this House complaints that the Hawker Inspectors are very harsh in their attitude, particularly towards unlicensed hawkers when they would behave rashly in the public eye, as stated by the Member for Bukit Panjang. Even in their dealings with licensed hawkers, they behave in the same way and in a very high-handed manner. Sometimes they are very unreasonable. So I would like to ask the Senior Parliamentary Secretary what kind of training courses do they conduct, what are the contents of the courses, where are such courses held, and whether there is any requirement for the Hawker Inspector to sit in and observe the Members of Parliament during their meet-the-people sessions.

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Sir, the Member for Jurong asked about the contents of the courses. I have already mentioned that they are given basic courses on administration, law enforcement and their handling of members of the public. In a big Ministry it may be possible that one or two officers may have so conducted themselves as to cause misunderstanding. If the Member for Jurong welcomes our officers to his meet-the-people sessions, we are prepared to send them there.

Mr Lee Yiok Seng: (In Mandarin): Sir, in answering my question just now the Senior Parliamentary Secretary said that there were instances of fighting when the hawker inspectors were enforcing the law. But whatever it is, who was right and who was wrong notwithstanding, he has admitted that there was a fight. This is a serious matter. Since he has admitted that there was a fight, has he taken any steps to prevent such a recurrence?

Mr Chor Yeok Eng: (In Mandarin): Fighting does not take place unilaterally. There are two sides to a fight.

Haji Rahmat Bin Kenap: (In Malay): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

8.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Barker: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1977 to 31st March, 1978, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.