MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1983 TO 31ST MARCH, 1984

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

3.03 p.m.

Head N -

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NA-01 of the Main Estimates.*

Sir, at the present moment a civil servant's pay consists of three components - he basic salary, the NWC allowance and he Annual Wage Supplement, which is in he form of a 13th month payment, and now also a 13 1/2, month payment. When the NWC component and the Annual Wage Supplement component were first introduced, their status was a non-pensionable status. The basic salary has always been pensionable. Recently the Minister for Finance amended the Pensions Act to allow the NWC component to be pensionable. In view of that, would he consider amending the Pensions Act to make the Annual Wage Supplement component also pensionable?

Mr Bernard Chen (Clementi): Sir, in the FY 83 Budget there has been a very substantial increase in manpower expenditure, the average being about 19%, but ranging from a low of 11% to 27%. Although in most of these Ministries the explanation given was that it was the salary revision that resulted in such a high increase, there is little doubt that the wage bill of the Government, even after having accounted for the revision, has been increasing quite substantially. The wage bill is dependent on the number of people in the Civil Service. The figures given in the Memorandum shows only reductions in establishments. The question is whether there has been any actual reduction in the number of staff, taking into account the hiving off of departments such as the Postal Services which took place last year.

In line with the private sector's drive also to conserve manpower and the fact that the Government is a major user of manpower, I think it is also relevant and pertinent that the Government Ministries as well as statutory boards, play a positive role in trying to reduce the manpower usage, especially at the operating levels. With the introduction of computerization on a large scale and with the improvements in work methods and systems, the formation of Work Improvement Teams and so on, surely these measures would help in reducing the actual number of people employed by the public service. The public sector, being a large user of manpower, should also be the first to try to be economical and efficient in making use of its manpower. I hope the Minister would enlighten us on the steps, if any, that are being taken to effect savings.

The Minister for Finance (Mr Hon Sui Sen): Sir, as regards the 13 1/2 month payment, I believe the Member for Moulmein is referring to the incentive payment of half a month's salary which was paid to deserving officers in the Civil Service last year.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: The 13th month and the 13 1/2 month payments.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: The Annual Wage Supplement is what you mean. It is quite clear that this has not been made part of the salary for very special reasons, and that is, it is a payment at the end of the year to people who remain in the Civil Service for the year. Therefore, by suggesting that it should be made part of the salary, what he is really trying to do is to make it into 12 payments and incorporate each payment in the salary so that the effect would really be that it is no longer an Annual Wage Supplement and would not fulfil the function which, I think, was designed for it, which is, that there should be a lump sum of money available at the end of the year to meet special expenses which are likely to be required at that period of the year.

In the same way, the half month salary which has been paid last year has taken on some of the characteristics of the Annual Wage Supplement. It is not a sum which need be paid to all officers. In fact, the idea is that only the deserving officers should get it. Those who have been subject to increments not being awarded would not receive this half month's pay.

Therefore, if you look at the history of the 13th month salary, and also the half month salary which is paid in the middle of the year, the derivation of the half month pay wag from the second tier payment in 1980 of 3% and the second tier payment in 1981 of 2% which were lump sum quantums which we were committed to pay in 1982 as a result of certain recommendations of the National Wages Council. The amount in 1982 should have been less than half month. It came to 3.85%, perhaps, of the 1982 June wage bill. But the Government was generous and rounded it off to half a month.

As for the second tier payment in 1980 and the second tier payment of 2% in 1981, the purpose of the second tier was to reward deserving officers. In fact, there was a lot of heart-burning in the Civil Service as to who were those who deserve to get the second tier payments. Therefore, I think it is in the nature of these lump sum quantums that they are not of the same nature as the salary which is payable from month to month and even, I suppose, less deserving officers would be paid.

The answer to the Member for Moulmein is, therefore, that I do not think it is appropriate in the circumstances for this to be consolidated with the salaries. In addition, there is a need for this half month payment. I would suggest that it is a useful payment for civil servants and would assuage some of the feelings of anger and frustration of those who retire or leave the Service and would not receive the Annual Wage Supplement at the end of the year.

I now come to the Member for Clementi. The total expenditure on manpower of the Ministries and departments is expected to reach $1,581.1 million in FY 1983, an increase of 19% over the corresponding budget allocation for FY 1982. This rate of increase is higher than the average annual growth of 13.5% in budgetted manpower expenditure over the financial years 1980-82 period. The increase is mainly due to the recent salary revision, the NWC wage supplement and the consequential rise in CPF contributions. The rate of increase has, however, been moderated by a drop in the actual staff strength of Ministries and departments. This is not just a matter of a drop in the establishment. The total number of monthly and daily-rated officers on Government payroll fell from 84,079 in December 1981 to 83,090 in December 1982. The transfer of the staff of the former Postal Services Department to the Telecommunications Authority of Singapore accounted for the bulk of the drop in the total strength. 3.15 p.m.

The Member has also commented that with large scale introduction of computerization there would be further opportunities of trimming of staff. I should like to stress here that the computerization programme has been launched with the primary objective of enhancing operational efficiency and productivity and the ability of Ministries and Departments to deal with the increasingly larger amount of Government business. It is not a staff reduction measure as such. Computerization, mechanization and automation schemes are expected to improve staff productivity and, therefore, reduce significantly the demand for additional manpower to cope with workload increases. In certain areas, however, the computerization, mechanization and automation could lead to staff reductions. The excess staff will be redeployed to fill vacancies in other Departments.

The full extent of manpower savings resulting from the implementation by Ministries and Departments of various computerization, mechanization and automation projects cannot be accurately estimated at this stage. Over the last year, some 200 vacant permanent and daily-rated posts have been deleted as these are no longer required following the implementation of the computerization, mechanization and automation projects. However, I would like to reiterate the caution raised by my colleague, the Minister for Trade and Industry, in this House - that the computerization, mechanization and automation programmes must not be used or seen to be used as a means to retrench staff. Otherwise they would be doomed to failure. At best, they serve to freeze staffing levels in the short-term and gradually reduce the levels in course of time without displacing anyone from employment.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I did not suggest to the Minister that the 13th month payment or the annual wage supplement should be consolidated. In fact, it can remain as it is. Just like the NWC, although you consolidate periodically, but in between you do not consolidate. But still the allowance in between if it remains as an allowance is a pensionable allowance. In the past, it was not a pensionable allowance. The reasons that the Minister gave why the annual wage supplement should not be pensionable were more or less the same reasons he gave why the NWC allowance should not be pensionable in the past. But he did not find the reasons strong enough and that is why he allowed the NWC allowance to be pensionable.

Why can the Minister not extend this? Because I think the annual wage supplement and the NWC allowance came from about the same circumstances. After a long period of wage freeze because of the economic difficulties that we had after 1968 when the British pulled out, there was a slow thawing of this wage freeze for the public sector. When the NWC mechanism was introduced and wage increase was slowly allowed through this NWC mechanism, two things came out for the Civil Service. One, the NWC allowance and the other, instead of a monthly wage increase of so much, was allowed to accumulate so that it can be paid at the end of the year. So no matter what you call it, NWC allowance, basic pay, 13th month allowance, ultimately it is a wage that is paid to the civil servant.

They have devised this form so that at the end of the year, you can help the civil servant to pay for his children's school textbooks and so on. This is a very good arrangement. But these are all devices to make the civil servant's life easy so that he can manage his home well and so forth. But the point remains that all these payments, whether it be basic pay, NWC allowance or 13th month pay, these are all his wages. The Minister had in the past resisted attempts to make the NWC allowance and the 13th month allowance pensionable but since he has given in to the NWC allowance, why can he not give in also to the 13th month allowance? After all, the status was the same before.

I think the Minister is also aware that when we calculate pension, it is not only for that particular year but for all the years of service that the civil servant has served the Government. One important element of the formula is the number of years of service that he has put in in the Civil Service. So for the number of years he has received the 13th month allowance, I think that surely entitles him to at least a part of the pension, or pension-right. For purposes of computing the pension, I think this 13th month allowance should be brought in - divide by 12, top it on the basic pay and, together with the NWC allowance which the Minister has agreed to, that is the quantum, multiply it with whatever formula it is. I think that only makes sense.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Moulmein is ascribing to me the thinking that he himself has. There is no question that we intended the annual wage supplement, i.e. the 13th month payment, to be a non-pensionable annual allowance, and we have said so right from the start. In the case of the NWC allowance, I never said that it would be a non-pensionable allowance.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: It was non-pensionable.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: That it would always be a non-pensionable allowance. I may remind the Member for Moulmein that the recent consolidation exercise was not the first of its kind. It is the second. The first exercise meant that we included all the increments which have been given in the past and made them part of the wage, the salary, and therefore they became pensionable. In the case of other NWC allowances, there was some legal impediment to my making them pensionable. Then there was a Bill which was introduced by me in this House to make certain allowances pensionable. And it is the intention that the NWC allowances would be pensionable so that even in between the years before consolidation, it would have the character of a salary, i.e. it would be part of the pensionable emoluments of the officer. There was no such intention in the case of the 13th month payment, and I say there would be no intention in the case of the half month payment in the middle of the year.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Mr Speaker, Sir, if there was such intention from the beginning, then what happened to those civil servants who retired in between the consolidation periods when the NWC allowances were NWC allowances and not consolidated? Before the Minister amended the Pensions Act, the allowances were not taken into account. So if he had intended it from the beginning, the Minister has therefore deprived those civil servants in the past of allowing their NWC allowances to be calculated for pension purposes. So which is which? Did the Minister intend it from the ,beginning, or it was an after-thought? I think it was an afterthought. I think it was a good move. It was a sensible move.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I know this has got serious financial implications. I am not suggesting that the Minister should give me a positive answer now, but I think the points have been driven home. I hope that the Minister will reconsider what I have said.

I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Bernard Chen: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NB-01 Object Group 3110 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, two years ago, the Government announced a very major programme for the introduction of computer facilities in most of the Ministries to improve their operational efficiency, and subsequent to that the National Computer Board was set up to supervise the implementation of these projects. I notice that in the coming year there has been no provision made in the grant to the NCB. I can only assume that the NCB has managed to secure its funds from elsewhere, probably from the Ministries concerned.

What I would like is for the Minister to let this House know what has been the progress in the introduction of the various computer facilities in the Ministries, especially those that are supposed to enhance operational efficiency of the Ministries such as Home Affairs, Police or in the Statistics Department, and how much has been spent so far. Further, whether the training of manpower has been kept up to ensure that when these facilities are ready they will be properly manned.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, computerization has been with us for many years but it has been given greater emphasis in recent years. The Government decided in early 1981 to implement a major Civil Service computerization programme as recommended by the Committee on National Computerization. The National Computer Board was set up in September 1981 to undertake among other functions the greater computerization of the Civil Service. Although there may be no allocation of funds this year, I would like to assure the Member for Clementi that there is no question of depriving the NCB at any time of any funds it requires. Such funds will be made available when necessary.

The software development work carried out by the NCB computer professionals in consultation with officers of the Ministries concerned is now in various stages of progress. The preliminary project work for some of the Ministries has been completed and tenders for computer systems have been called for the Ministry of Social Affairs, the Department of Civil Aviation and the Meteorological Department. So far, nine tenders have been called. Of these, the tenders for the Ministry of Social Affairs and the Department of Civil Aviation have been awarded. The other tenders, including that for the Ministry of Home Affairs in which the Member is interested, are now being evaluated. All the nine new computer systems are expected to be installed by the end of this year. The development work for the Ministry of Trade and Industry, the Police Department, the Registry of Vehicles, the Ministry of National Development and the Customs and Excise Department has reached where these Ministries and Departments will soon invite tenders for their required computer systems. 3.30 p.m.

At the time when the Civil Service computerization programme began, the Ministries of Labour, Education and the Environment as well as the Inland Revenue Department had already received approval to proceed with their respective computerization plans. Four computer systems have since been installed in these Ministries and the Inland Revenue Department, These systems should contribute significantly to the operational efficiency. All the Civil Service computerization projects are aimed at enhancing the operational efficiency of the Ministries and Departments concerned. Not only should efficiency be increased but productivity should also be enhanced.

Training, which the Member wanted to know about, is a key ingredient in the implementation of the computerization programme in the Civil Service. The National Computer Board has to-date built up a staff strength of 218 computer professionals. All new staff who do not have the necessary computer background undergo a three-month training course where they are taught computer concepts, programming and systems analysis. The more senior computer staff are also sent on specialized courses. Courses are conducted mainly by the Systems Education Centre, the in-house computer training facility of the NCB. In addition, to ensure proper user participation in the computerization efforts, the NCB is also mounting a comprehensive user education programme to all levels of staff in Ministries and departments who will have to use and operate the computer systems.

Mr Bernard Chen: I thank the Minister for his very comprehensive reply, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tang See Chim (Chua Chu Kang): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NB-01 Project 8501 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, under this item there are listed New Projects totalling $350 million. However, there is not a single detail on what these new projects are. I therefore would like to ask the Minister what are these projects which are costing the national purse a huge sum of $350 million.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the Member for Chua Chu Kang wants to know how the sum of $350 million has been set aside under my Ministry for new development projects.

As the Member is aware, the Development estimates of each Ministry indicate the amounts required in the new financial year for implementation of projects which have previously been approved by the Development Planning Committee, the Committee on Project Evaluation or the Development Planning Sub-Committee. Each of these committees is authorized to approve development projects up to an estimated cost of $300,000 for the DPSC, $5 million for the Committee on Project Evaluation and $5 million for the Development Planning Committee. In the course of the new financial year, however, a Ministry or Department might need to implement new projects for which no provision exists in the Development estimates. After the Ministry or Department has obtained the approval of the appropriate committee for implementation of such a new project, my Ministry will make funds available from this particular item to meet the initial expenditure in the current financial year. Over the following year, expenditure for such projects should be provided in the Development vote of the Ministries themselves. So the allocation for new projects is made after taking into account past expenditure trends and the development plans of the Ministries. The amount which has been provided for the financial year 1983 is a sum of $350 million, which is the same as that provided last year and is expected to be sufficient. This amount is roughly 15% of the total budgetted expenditure of all Ministries and Departments.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, this means that we are asked to write a blank cheque. Would it not, in fact, be better to encourage the civil servants to exercise more efficient budgetting if we have the projects listed under the various heads rather than asking Parliament to write a blank cheque at the beginning of the year? Also, even if we do not do that, when the occasion arises they can always come back to Parliament and ask for the money, rather than asking us now, at the beginning of the year, to give them a blank cheque.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the request for $350 million is not a request to Parliament for a blank cheque. I admit that this sum is a contingency sum which, I said, is made up of 15% of the total budgetted expenditure. But before any expenditure can be incurred, or even for the project to be approved, it must go to one of the three committees. If it is a small project, it goes to the Development Planning SubCommittee, up to a level of $300,000 for a new project; or to the Committee on Project Evaluation, which is a committee of the three major Permanent Secretaries; and to the Development Planning Committee, which consists of three Ministers, for any sum above $5 million. So it is not a blank cheque in that sense.

There is no way in which civil servants can plan for everything in the following year, and if the money has to be sought from Parliament in each case, then it would delay certain projects. For example, in the case of the Changi Airport, in one particular year the progress was so much better than expected that we had to go beyond the budget. We did come back eventually at the end of the year, just before Budget time, for additional allocations in an application for supplementary vote. So it is to avoid having to do this that we ask for a contingency provision of $350 million. I think this is prudent budgetting and it is being done in all commercial firms at least, so that when they plan a project there is a certain amount of contingency provision.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, in respect of a particular development project, I thought that there is already a contingency sum of 10%. But here we are, in fact, asking for another 15% over the total development projects. That means there will be a 25% contingency. Is this really necessary?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: The distinction is that the contingency amounts, of course, for particular projects are provided in the particular project. Here I am speaking in terms of new projects. In the case of Changi Airport, it is a series of projects; some of which have been planned and some of which are unexpected and new. So this is the contingency sum for new projects. I think $350 million at today's prices and for a Development budget of $8 billion is not very considerable.

The Chairman: Would you prefer to put it to a vote, Mr Tang, or withdraw to save time?

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, I was just going to suggest that perhaps the Estimates Committee should take up this point really. As you suggested, Sir, in order to save time, I would just withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NB-01 Project 8502 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, I am moving this amendment just to request information because, again, under this item Ex-gratia payments an amount of $30 million is listed. What are these exgratia payments?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I have previously given to the House, during the Committee of Supply debates on the FY 1981 budget, the reasons for an allocation of this kind. I will give these reasons again.

On 4th August, 1980, the Government announced that with effect from 1st January 1981, all contractors would be required to pay CPF contributions for their foreign construction workers employed under block permits. It was emphasized, however, that contractors working on Government projects which could not be completed by the end of 1980 might face some financial difficulties as they had not taken such CPF contributions into account in their tender bids. It was therefore decided to pay on behalf of the contractors the CPF contributions for workers on contract tendered before the date of the announcement of the new policy. This requirement, that employers make CPF contributions in respect of their block permit contract workers, was dropped with effect from 1st July, 1982; and a Foreign Workers Levy imposed instead.

The $30 million therefore remains as a need to pay the CPF contributions from the period of 1st January to 1st July 1982. The financial provision for these ex-gratia payments is made under my Ministry's head of expenditure but the actual administration of the scheme is the responsibility of the Ministry of National Development which deals with the contracts. 3.45 p.m.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, I was going to ask precisely why we were not given more details and why was it not listed under the head of the Ministry of National Development. However, in order to save time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendment stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr Sia Khoon Seong:

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe:

Mr Yeo Toon Chia: (5) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead ND-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Sir, I am not moving.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe (Geylang Serai): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead ND-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, funds have been provided in the Budget for greater mechanization, automation and computerization in the Civil Service. The objective is to improve productivity and restrain the growth of recurrent expenditure and manpower in the Civil Service. I would like to touch on the human aspects of these proposals. It is necessary to ensure that the officers, especially those in the lower divisions, i.e. Divisions Ill and IV, are given the necessary preparation and assistance to help them adjust to the changes in the work environment. They should not be made to feel outmoded or obsolete by these changes. They should not be left guessing whether they have become redundant. There must be a proper and systematic training programme to enable them to handle the automated office equipment and computers. Could the Minister elaborate on the steps taken to train and prepare officers in the lower divisions to adjust to the new work environment?

In November last year, at a Civil Service Productivity Campaign function, the Minister stated that there were 20,000 civil servants without basic skills in English language and Mathematics. They include about 12,400 monthly-rated employees, or 18.5% of the monthly-rated civil servants, and another 7,150 daily-rated employees or 65% of the daily-rated workforce. Ministries were then asked to give their urgent attention to this problem. Could the Minister inform the House of the progress of action taken on this matter?

It is important for employers to be fair to their employees if they want to win their employees' trust and confidence. I would like to bring up one example where some Division IV employees were not treated fairly. After the Division IV salaries were revised in April last year, it was discovered that certain Division IV officers on promotional grades lost out to those who had not been promoted but who belonged to the same Scheme of Service or personnel group. The Ministry of Finance accepted that this is an untenable position and hence in November 1982 took action to rectify the anomaly. However, instead of rectifying the anomaly with effect from 1st April 1982, i.e. the date of the revision, the Ministry decided to rectify it only on 1st December 1982. I feel that this is most unfair. If the revision had been done correctly in April 1982, this anomaly would not have arisen. I hope that the Minister will look into this and, in all fairness, allow for the anomaly to be rectified with effect from 1st April 1982, i.e. the date of the revision.

I would like to turn now to medical benefits given to civil servants. At present, civil servants are entitled to free medical benefits and only have to pay a part of their ward charges if they are hospitalized. I would like to know whether there will be any changes to the civil servants' medical benefits scheme when Medisave is introduced.

Finally, could the Minister inform the House of the progress in the development of Work Improvement Teams (WITs) in the Civil Service? Have the WITs helped to develop greater teamwork and team spirit in various work places where they have been formed? Have they helped to foster closer supervisor-subordinate relationship? What types of incentives are given to officers to join the WITs in their work places?

Mr Yeo Toon Chia (Ang Mo Kio): Sir, I would like to touch on the unequal treatment accorded to female civil servants. We all know that the Government recognizes equal treatment for both male and female citizens, right from birth. They are accorded equal treatment for entry into schools, institutions of higher learning or the workforce. Being the biggest employer, the Government employs a large number of female officers, especially in the teaching and nursing professions. Their admission into the Civil Service is based on merits and promotion is based on their work performance and productivity. In every sense, they are given equal recognition and opportunities as their male counterparts.

But there is still one area which discriminates against the female civil servant. Over the years, the situation has not changed. I am referring to the medical benefits accorded to male and female civil servants. A male civil servant enjoys medical benefits which are also extended to his family and children, whereas a female officer herself only is entitled to the medical benefits. Only in cases where the female officers are widowed or divorced are medical benefits extended to their children.

Sir, in the context of today's society, a male may not necessarily be head of the household. With equal opportunities in education, many women today are holding responsible positions in the Civil Service as well as in the private sector. It would be an advantage to the Government if our female officers are spared the unnecessary worry of the state of health of their families. There are cases where the husbands are either medically boarded out or are dependent on their wives' monthly contribution to the family income. Under such circumstances, the female civil servant will feel the additional burden of worries over her family's health if medical benefits do not cover her husband and children as well. Less worries will obviously contribute to better work performance and thereby increase productivity.

With the rising cost of medical treatment and the increasing number of females heading the household, it is sad to have to see a female civil servant facing financial difficulty in paying the medical bills for her family. The Government is the biggest employer, employing more than 60,000 civil servants. Most of the private companies are taking the Government's terms and conditions of service as a guideline for their employees. This treatment is most unfair to the female worker and, in fact, it contradicts the PAP Government's policy of equal rewards for equal work, irrespective of whether the worker is male or female.

With so many female officers working in the various Government departments, the Minister will certainly boost the morale of the female officers by granting them equal medical benefits as their male counterparts. I am sure, with this move, more married women will join the Civil Service and those already in the Service will stay on even after marriage and even after they have children, thereby contributing to our economy.

Sir, with the emphasis on productivity and also this year's tax concession given to encourage married women to remain in the workforce so that they can contribute to our economic growth, is it not time that we reviewed the present policy of unequal medical benefits for female officers in the Civil Service?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, computerization, mechanization and automation in the Civil Service take many and varied forms with a variety of equipment. The Member for Geylang Serai wanted to know what steps are being taken to see that staff in the lower echelons are trained in order to adapt themselves to the new situation. Some of the equipment for computerization, mechanization and automation are very specialized and serve the needs of particular Departments only. For instance, equipment for computer-assisted design for the Public Works Department and the Ministry of the Environment is to assist them in their architectural and engineering drawings and designs. Arrangements have been made by the PWD and the Ministry of the Environment themselves to train their own staff to use and operate these machines. Such staff will include operatives in the lower divisions of the service there. Other Ministries or Departments acquiring specialized equipment catering for their particular needs only will also have to arrange for training of their own staff at all levels who will have to man or operate the equipment. Usually the vendors or suppliers of such equipment also provide training facilities.

In the case of the Civil Service computerization programme under which there will be widespread dispersal and use of computers of various sorts in Ministries and Departments, staff training at all levels, as I have previously explained, has to be initiated by the Ministries and Departments themselves to cater to their own needs. This is because there will be such a variety of computers of different sizes and capabilities in Ministries and Departments to serve very different purposes. No single common programme of training for the whole Civil Service can be adequate. 4.00 p.m.

The National Computer Board, which has been charged with the overall responsibility for the implementation of the Civil Service computerization programme, also looks into the training needs of the staff in the Ministries and Departments who will see and operate the computer equipment that is installed under the Civil Service programme. Common training programmes have been organized for Ministries and Departments where common equipment is used. For instance, with the installation of communication word processors covering all Ministries and a number of Departments, the staff operating these word processors, who are in Divisions 11, Ill and IV, are all given the same type of training. Such training was arranged at the Civil Service Institute by the Management Services Department which is responsible for implementing the communicating word processor network with the supply of equipment and assistance in the training and provision of training facilities. It is obvious that no single training programme for the whole Civil Service, even in the lower echelons only, can meet the needs of all the staff who have to use and operate the equipment for the computerization, mechanization and automation in the Civil Service. However, when needs for training of a generalized nature exist, the Finance Ministry's Public Service Division and the Civil Service Institute will continue to coordinate, plan and implement such training.

The Member for Geylang Serai also asked about the employees in the public sector who did not have the basic skills in the English language and Mathematics. To encourage officers who lack basic skills in English and Mathematics to upgrade themselves, my Ministry introduced a scheme last year to sponsor them for foundation courses at the VITB. The response to the scheme was unexpectedly poor. Only 12 employees without PSLE qualification applied for sponsorship. They have already started on their courses. The Public Service Division is now trying to find out why the other officers did not sign up. Two possible reasons are that they feel that they are too old to go back to school or that their family commitments are too heavy. My Ministry will do whatever is in its control to remove any obstacles or inhibitions that the civil servants may have, so that as many as possible can take advantage of the opportunity to upgrade themselves.

The Member for Geylang Serai also asked about the backdating of revision of Division IV salaries. On this matter, the principle is fairly clear - salaries should not be backdated. Incidentally, the salaries for Division IV employees were revised from April 1982. The anomalies which were mentioned by the Member for Geylang Serai arose because the salary revision in April 1982 entailed the amalgamation and revision of salary scales. Both the union and my Ministry were not aware of the anomalies when they agreed on the revised salaries and signed a three-year collective agreement on 29th March, 1982. Subsequently, when the anomalies came to light, the union and my Ministry discussed the matter and reached agreement in November 1982 and agreed on certain salary adjustments to rectify these anomalies.

The time-honoured practice in my Ministry and generally accepted by the Civil Service unions is that changes in salary scales are implemented on the first day of the month following agreement of the changes. Thus, the revised scales for Division IV grades agreed by the union and my Ministry on 29th March, 1982, were implemented from 1st April,1982. Similarly, the salary adjustments to rectify the anomalies which were agreed in November 1982 were implemented on 1st December. The Member's request that this be backdated would offend against the principle and my Ministry cannot agree to his request as it will breach long established principles.

The Member for Geylang Serai also asked about the WITs programmes. I am glad that he has given me the opportunity to express satisfaction with the implementation of the Work Improvement Teams (WITs) in the Civil Service. The formation and nurturing of WITs in each Ministry and Department is the responsibility of the individual Ministry and Department. The implementation has, however, been and is being coordinated by the WITs Development Unit under the overall direction of the Central Productivity Steering Committee which includes representatives of the NTUC. I believe it includes the Member for Geylang Serai.

The Civil Service Institute set about training the first batch of facilitators for the WITs programme in early 1982. The initial plan was to train 60 facilitators in 1982. But the response from the Ministries was so overwhelming that 750 facilitators were actually trained in 1982. These trained facilitators helped to set up 845 WITs in the Ministries and Departments, a number which, again, surpassed the figure of 120 planned for 1982. The first Civil Service WITs presentation was held on 22nd and 23rd September, 1982, as part of the National Productivity Month. Sixteen WITs participated. Actually about 60 WITs applied to take part but only 16 could be accommodated within the time available. Nineteen WITs from the public service also took part in the National QCC Convention. They did well in bagging seven gold awards.

The enthusiasm and response to the WITs movement show that civil servants regard the recognition of their involvement in and ability to contribute to the improvement of the work of their Ministries and Departments as its own reward. This recognition is in itself a valuable incentive that is above monetary rewards. Material incentives and rewards should not be over-emphasized although there are some such material incentives and awards. Participation in WITs has its own intangible but lasting rewards. All Civil Service managers are being encouraged and trained to pay heed to the importance of self-esteem, involvement, challenge, pride of work and job satisfaction to all workers, not least civil servants.

A survey carried out in October and November 1982 gauged the response of civil servants to WITs. The survey shows that civil servants do want to contribute to their organization's effectiveness and to their own personal development. The felt that WIT was an effective channel through which their talents, creativity and team work and pride in work and motivation could be harnessed to bring about improvements in the Civil Service and improved their job satisfaction and personal development. I have here a summary of the survey, but I do not propose to read the results of this survey. I am prepared to make this available to anyone who is interested.

I am satisfied with the progress already made by WITs in the Civil Service. The need now is to sustain this interest in WITs. Permanent Secretaries and Heads of Departments have to continue to actively promote the formation and nurturing of WITs. The WITs Development Unit needs all the support - moral, administrative and financial - they can get to assist in the task. In this connection I am happy that the Member for Geylang Serai is a member of the Council representing the NTUC, and he has my sincere appreciation for his active support of the WITs movement in the Civil Service.

The Member for Geylang Serai also mentioned about medical benefits for Division IV civil servants. I did not quite get his point.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: With Medisave, will the medical benefits be changed for civil servants?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the matter has come up for discussion with the Ministry of Finance. I think the Medisave scheme is still being discussed.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: It is under discussion. 4.15 p.m.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: But I have no doubt that civil servants will be well taken care of by their trade unions and by their MPs.

I think I also heard the Member for Ang Mo Kio speak on medical benefits for dependants of civil servants, but mainly in regard to married female officers in the Civil Service. He has made an eloquent plea. However, we have heard these pleas before and we have rejected them. I do not think it would serve any purpose for me to go over the whole ground again. I think we explained earlier, not by me but by the Minister of Defence when he was acting in the position, in one of the Budget debates, that the guiding principle in providing medical benefits to dependants of civil servants is whether the dependants are truly dependent on the civil servants. Therefore, a woman officer is accorded medical benefits in respect of dependants only if she has children solely dependent on her. This is so in the case of a widow, divorcee or married woman who has been granted a decree or judicial separation.

Sir, I think I have dealt with all the points.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I would just like to come back to the question of anomalies in the Division IV salaries. I do not see why the backdating principle should apply here because the salaries were revised from the 1st April. There were anomalies as a result of this revision and therefore if there was any correction to be done, it should be effective from the date of the revision. Why should it not be backdated? After all, this will apply to Division IV employees who were already on the promotional grades. They are not new Division IV employees who are promoted. I hope the Minister will look into this again.

On that note, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement:

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan: (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NE-03 of the Development Estimates.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NE-04 of the Main Estimates.

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan: (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NF-01 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment (6), Dr Tan.

Dr Augustine Tan: Not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment (7), Dr Lee is not here. Amendment (8), Dr Tan.

Dr Augustine Tan: Not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment (9), Mr Jeyaretnam.

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam (Anson): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NF-06 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in view of the time, I will be very brief. I know I have only got 10 minutes.

Sir, this, as you will gather, deals with Payroll Tax. My plea tonight is not the plea that I made in the Budget debate - that it be suspended - but on another note, and that is, the purpose for which this payroll tax was continued. It is, as I said then, a payroll tax and we have been told by the Minister for Finance earlier that this was introduced when we were part of Malaysia. It was a Malaysian enactment in the Parliament in Kuala Lumpur that brought payroll tax to Singapore. When we came out of Malaysia, this was discussed in the sitting of this House on the 16th December, 1965, in debating the Address of the then Yang di-Pertuan Negara. I do not want to read what was said then by the Minister for Labour when he came to talk about the payroll tax. You will find it, Sir, in the Parliamentary report of 16th December 1965. The salient part of this, he said after saying that Singapore had opposed this vigorously when it was introduced by Malaysia, is that Singapore thought it was most unwise. He went on to say:

'We intend to set aside the revenue collected under this head to form a fund for the social security of the workers. We will set up a committee to put up recommendations for the implementation of the scheme. As what we have done in all our major labour legislation and policies, the NTUC will be the first we would approach for their views and suggestions on the scheme.'

Mr Speaker, Sir, here was a solemn declaration made by a Minister of the Government, the Minister for Labour, that all collections thereafter from December 1965 for this payroll tax, would not be appropriated for general revenue but be put into a special fund f-or the social security of the workers.

We were told by the Minister for Finance, I think in the 4th December 1982 sitting, that a total of $819.1 million has been collected by the end of FY 1981. I understand from that answer and also through a telephone inquiry I made to the Ministry that the whole lot of this sum had been paid into the Consolidated Fund and had been used for the purposes for which the Consolidated Fund is available, i.e. part of the general revenue.

Mr Speaker, Sir, unless this declaration by the Minister on 16th December, 1965 was changed by a resolution of this House that all collections from the payroll tax should thereafter be paid into the Consolidated Fund, I would venture to suggest that here we have a gross violation of a declaration made by a Minister, speaking in this House, that these monies would be set aside for the workers.

Sir, I have not gone into the question whether it would be a criminal breach of trust but it is certainly a breach of trust that this Government, after having declared that all the monies would be channelled into a fund for the social security of the workers, has over the years in question used it for general revenue purposes. I say, Sir, that it is a gross violation. I would like to know from the Minister whether any resolution has been passed to change the declaration made by the Minister.

There are only two courses open to the Government in this case, and may I suggest them. I am sorry that this might cause some discomfiture to the present Minister for Finance for whom I have a very high regard. He was not a Member of this Parliament then and he was not a member of the Government. But I see that there was present at that time the trade unionist and the present Member for Khe Bong who was then a Member of Parliament. He is an ardent trade unionist. I would like to know what he did about this.

There are only two courses open to the Government on this. One, either honour the declaration made by the Minister for Labour, i.e. set up a committee - and I say a committee appointed by this House representing both sides, the Government side and the Opposition side - so that this committee will administer the fund. Or, if the Government is not prepared to do that, then it should return the monies now to the persons from whom it has collected these monies because it has been collected under a false pretence.

Sir, if the Government is not prepared to do either of these things, I think the only honourable thing for the Government to do is to resign and to go back to the electorate and to explain how it has over the years broken its solemn pledge made by a Minister of the Government in this House. Sir, I am not saying this in any jest but I am saying it quite seriously. We have a Minister making a declaration, and then it is completely ignored and disregarded. We have ardent trade unionists who were in this House and I said the Member for Khe Bong was one of them. Will he resign? He has failed the workers. I would like to know this.

Perhaps I might ask the Minister first whether there was any resolution to alter the declaration made by the Minister for Labour then.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I am aware that perhaps there have been different intentions with regard to the payroll tax in the early days. There was an intention, for example, that this payroll tax should be withdrawn after Malaysia. That has not been carried out. There might have been some intention to consider uses of the payroll tax and the Minister, whom he quoted, at that time might have really intended that that was a use which was appropriate. There had been other intentions with regard to the payroll tax from time to time which had been suggested in the House.

When I came into the Government, the payroll tax was already an item of revenue. It was an item of over $160 million in 1982. 1 feel that I am not able to dispense with the large amount which is being collected. As far as I am concerned, my duty as Minister for Finance is to see that there is sufficient revenue to meet expenditure. We have been told that the deficit, taking into account both current and development expenditure, is enormous and I therefore feel no qualms in using the payroll tax which has been paid into the Consolidated Fund to meet the expenses that this Government must expect.

Whatever may be the intentions in the past, whether by the Minister for Labour at that time or by the NTUC members or other people in this House, my duty is quite clear. I am not prepared to forgo the revenue which is being collected under the payroll tax. I have made this clear previously, and I would like to make it clear again that I wish to retain this payroll tax for the Consolidated Fund.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, as I have said, it is not my intention to embarrass the present Minister for Finance. As I said, this was a solemn declaration. Does not the Minister think that a declaration like that made by a Minister of the Government in Parliament should either be honoured or, if it is not going to be honoured, they should have come back to the House and explained the change in the intention to which the monies were going to be put? I have asked the Minister whether there was any declaration made to the House about the change in the intention which was proclaimed by the Minister for Labour then. The then Minister for Labour is now away in London. Perhaps he should be asked. Perhaps the Prime Minister should be asked. I see he is not here today. Perhaps he might have an answer to this.

I say, Sir, and I repeat, this is a gross violation of a declaration made by a senior Minister in this House speaking on behalf of the Government and I must take it that he had the authority to speak on behalf of the Government when he announced the intention. That is all I wish to say, Sir, and having said that, I wish to withdraw my amendment. 4.30 p.m.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I thought I made it clear that I have made a declaration that this money is required by the Minister for Finance, and that declaration overrides any other declaration that has been made in this House.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Would the Minister please indicate when he made this declaration? Not now. We know he is making the declaration now. But when did he make the declaration, because he should have referred, otherwise it would have been, may I say with respect, dishonest, if he did not. When did he make the declaration referring to the earlier declaration made by the Minister for Labour, and then announce the intention of the Government to change the purpose for which the money was being collected? May I have an answer to that?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I do not think I need to make a specific declaration. As Minister for Finance, I am in charge of the revenue of the Government, I am in charge of the disbursement of moneys from the Consolidated Fund. I have paid the Payroll Tax into the Consolidated Fund and have used it for the purposes which I think are appropriate, that is, for the votes which are itemised in the Budget and which have been approved by this House, and I think there is no further declaration needed.

But I did say in this House that, as far as I was concerned, Payroll Tax was an item of revenue that was not to be discussed in the same terms as the Skills Development Fund. That was, I think, within this month [4th March]. I see no reason, with the functions which have been assigned to me, that I should ask anyone else whether I should make this declaration. I make this declaration as Minister for Finance of this Government, and that is sufficient as far as this item of revenue is concerned.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, as I understand the Minister, he made this declaration - was it last month or was it at the recent sittings? The point that I am making, which seems to have been lost, is that there was this solemn declaration and if you are now saying you are going to take it for general revenue purposes then you are bound, duty bound to refer to the earlier declaration and say, "Very sorry, we are not going to honour that pledge. We haven't honoured it. We are taking it for revenue purposes." That is the least that can be expected.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I do not know who made a law that made it necessary that we should deny whatever the previous Minister had said. As far as I am concerned, I made this declaration, in fact, I will make this declaration now that the Payroll Tax is only to be used for the Consolidated Fund and, like all items in the Consolidated Fund, it will be merged with the general revenues of the Government and will be treated no differently from any other items of revenue.

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, you have withdrawn your amendment, is that right?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: It is guillotine time anyway. The time allotted for Head N having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with:

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: (10) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NG-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: (11) That the sum to be allocated for Head N be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead NG-01 Project 8101 of the Development Estimates. The sum of $2,387,730,820 for Head N ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $1,647,199,000 for Head N ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates,

Head M -

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MA-01 of the Main Estimates.*

Sir, we boast of a clean and green Singapore, and rightly so, because when tourists come to Singapore they look at our streets, the public buildings on the outside are kept very clean and there is much greenery in our city. But within the buildings, particularly within the toilets, we have a different picture altogether. When I fly to different airports of the world, Sir, and I get into their toilets, I know roughly the kind of country I am in. Although the toilets at our Changi Airport are very clean, I cannot say the same for our toilets in other buildings in Singapore. I do not know whether it would take a visit by the Prime Minister himself to a public toilet for something to be done, but I hope that the Ministry of the Environment can do something about this.

Sir, I would also like to make reference to the question of hygiene in the handling of food. I was having lunch once at a restaurant in a major hotel in Singapore. After I finished my lunch I came out and I saw, at the back of my car in the car park itself, a whole string of ducks being dried out in the sun. The exhausts from the car, the fumes and so on, provide us -

An hon. Member: Szechuan ducks!

Dr Augustine Tan: I do not know whether they make Szechuan ducks this way, but it is certainly most unhygienic. Then I was in another restaurant and, while we were waiting for our food, one of my friends went to the toilet and a waiter also went to the toilet. So my friend came out and he said, "He didn't." "He didn't" meaning he did not wash his fingers. I think we should take this seriously - before we issue licences to various food establishments and to hawkers, they should be taught the basic rules of personal hygiene, otherwise we can facilitate the spread of diseases.

Another matter I wish to take up with the Minister concerns the recent revision of hawkers' fees. It seems to have been done across the board, regardless of location and profitability of the hawkers in question. I kind of rather suspect that the people who make decisions on such fees frequent the more popular hawker centres, like Telok Ayer and Cairnhill, where tourists and office workers frequent. But those of us who come from the more out-lying areas where the volume of business is lower and the profitability less, like markets in Whampoa, this would seem to be inequitable for the hawkers in question. I would therefore like to ask the Hon. Minister whether he should not review his policy to provide for differential fees to be paid in terms of different locations, so as to reflect this fact which I have pointed out.

Another concern of hawkers is the announced policy of the Housing and Development Board and other relevant authorities not to build any more wet markets in new housing estates. Naturally the fear is whether the present wet markets are also going to be phased out. I for one certainly hope not and would like to appeal to the Minister not to do so because there are thousands of hawkers whose livelihood depends on the markets, and there are even more thousands of Singaporeans who are very used to these markets that it would be a shame for these to be phased out.

The last issue I would like to raise with the Hon. Minister concerns the question of air pollution. I would like to ask him whether in the measurement taken of the air pollution in Singapore, what is the lead content and whether we have any measures to regulate the amount of lead permissible in petroleum and other petroleum products.

The Chairman: Mr Yeo.

Mr Yeo Toon Chia (Ang Mo Kio): I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, since I have an amendment* on Hawker Control and since my colleague has touched on hawkers' fees, can I join in and speak under this head?

The Chairman: Are you trying to cut in because you are afraid you would lose your chance to speak?

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: If the Minister wishes to answer the question -

The Chairman: Do you mind, Mr Ong?

The Minister for the Environment (Mr Ong Pang Boon): No.

The Chairman: All right, carry on, Mr Rohan.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, recently the hawkers in the food centres and market stalls in my constituency have been served with notices for increases of rentals with effect from next month. While these notices were served by the HDB, I was told that the unseen hand came from the Minis- try of the Environment, the Hawkers Department. Therefore, the fault is not with the HDB in this case. Although I am aware that there are certain areas, say, Newton Food Centre, where hawking is a very lucrative business, this is not the case with the hawkers' market in my constituency. Business in Depot Food Market, for instance, is particularly not good at all. This increase, therefore, would serve no purpose except for two. One, it would help those hawkers that are not having good business to go bust, and the other is that, if the business is good as in other areas, it would give a very good excuse for these hawkers to transfer the increase, plus an added premium, to the consumers. Would the Minister please explain to the House why this increase is at all necessary? If this increase is inevitable, would the Minister consider having different rates, as my colleague, the Member for Whampoa has suggested, different rates of increases for different areas or zones. The experience of the HDB in fixing the sale prices of HDB flats by zones would be invaluable and should be tapped. Surely the Minister for National Development's brain could be picked to the advantage of all, and in this respect my constituents and the hawkers in my constituency would really appreciate this very much and so would several of my other colleagues.

Sir, the other matter is on itinerant hawkers. Although the Hawkers Department has been doing a good job in hawker control, I still notice that there exists, here and there and on and off, in several parts of Singapore itinerant hawkers. I understand that these itinerant hawkers are both very enterprising and well organized. I was informed that some of them even take the fines imposed on them, by the Enforcement teams from the Ministry of the Environment and the Housing and Development Board, as part of their cost of sales. It appears that the enforcement action need to be stepped up. What steps, therefore, if the Minister could relate to the House, are being taken to eradicate this unhealthy phenomenon because besides littering the place they also flout our laws.

4.45 p.m.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi (Kampong Kembangan): Sir, I agree in principle that there is a need to review the hawker programme of the Ministry presumably because of the following considerations:

(a) that young Singaporeans should not take up hawking as a profession, as they are more urgently required in industry;

(b) that land area is limited and we should ensure maximum utilization, and therefore minimize the number of hawker establishments, and/of secure optimum utilization of those premises; and

(c) that the development and rental costs are, in fact, highly subsidized, and there is therefore the need to reduce the subsidy component.

In this debate, I would like to take this opportunity to ask if the Minister could report or comment on the following matters before he proceeds with the remaining part of the changes relating to the hawker programme.

First, if he could report or take into account the actual number of hawkers and their assistants who are below 40 years. Of these, how many took up hawking during the past five years. This information would help clear up the concern that too many young Singaporeans are being uneconomically deployed to hawking instead of being deployed in industry.

Secondly, how many hawkers are, in fact, 50 years and above? This information will tell us the number of old hawkers who will retire; how many "second echelon" hawkers would need to be groomed to take over from the outgoing experienced hawkers who had contributed so much towards building the infrastructure of food establishments all over Singapore long before Singapore's independence.

Thirdly, what exactly is the number of hawker establishments, i.e. those under the Ministry of the Environment's Hawkers Department, HDB, JTC and PSA, and those which are called licensed establishments, i.e. food establishments licensed through the respective public health districts of the Ministry of the Environment? Given this figure, it would be useful if we can determine what really is the number of hawker establishments that would be required in Singapore, given the size of the Singapore population now and in the future.

Finally, what really was the original objective of the hawker programme? Was it not (and is it still not) the intention of providing working Singaporeans with the means and facilities to secure relatively cheap meals close to their residential areas and work place? Is it not also justifiable from this reasoning that we expect Singaporean wives and mothers to work? Therefore, with the food centres, they could obtain cheaper food at convenient places? Did we not also pride ourselves that our hawkers help Singaporeans in minimizing the effects of inflation, considering the fact that they can still get cheap food from the hawkers?

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, would you like to join in?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Thank you, Sir. May I add my plea, along with the pleas that have been made by the other hon. Members to the Minister, to think again a little about the announced increases for hawkers in the licence fees that they would be required to pay. I see that the fee for cooked food hawkers would be going up by about 150%, no doubt in three stages beginning from April this year, and others - the piece goods and sundry hawkers and market produce - differentiated in varying degrees, less than 150%.

The reason given by the Ministry was that the construction cost of the hawker stalls had risen. They said it had risen from $6,000 in 1973 to $40,000 today. I do not know whether the Ministry would care to explain how these costs have been arrived at. I have suggested to the Housing and Development Board that they should present actual building costs of their flats and that it is possible to prepare a costing of their flats. I am sure it must be equally possible for the Ministry of the Environment to present a costing of these stalls today. Would the Minister consider doing that?

Secondly, again may I lend my plea to the request that has been made that there should be a variation in the licence fees depending on the areas where the hawker stalls are situated. It must surely be apparent to the Ministry that a hawker in People's Park or in other densely populated areas of the city will be able to sell far more than another hawker selling in the suburbs, in one of the new towns or in one of the very low density areas. Is it not possible to have a variation of these licence fees? What is so difficult about it?

The other point is the question of itinerant hawkers. The Member for Telok Blangah says that they should be eradicated. But I think itinerant hawkers do serve a useful purpose and I really cannot see what is the objection to allowing selected itinerant hawkers. If they present a traffic problem and if they are causing obstruction, then I am sure the Traffic Police will deal with them. But if they are moving from house to house, or area to area, what is the problem? After all, we have got lots of others moving from area to area. What is wrong with a hawker on his mechanized tricycle or motorcycle moving around selling bread, milk or ice-cream, or anything else for that matter? What is the objection in principle to this?

I have had an itinerant hawker coming to see me in my capacity as a Member of Parliament and he has been an itinerant hawker for many, many years. That is his only livelihood. And he brought to me a sheaf of fine tickets that he had to pay and he said that he has been driven to his wit's end. I wrote to the Ministry and I was told, 'We have stopped issuing any licences. We can't issue it." What is wrong with this man having a licence to carry on his itinerant hawking? I cannot see anything wrong with it.

Finally, Sir, may I ask the Minister to explain a little bit more about the criteria of hardship for the issue of a new licence. When I asked him last time, he said that one criterion would be where they were in receipt of public assistance. Is that the only criterion? If that is the only criterion, it would mean that hardly anybody would get a new licence. But why should they, first of all, go and get public assistance? It is hard enough already trying to get public assistance from the Ministry of Social Affairs. So why should they be asked to get that first and then go to the Ministry of the Environment to get a hawking licence? Why are they being put to this duplication?

I know of people who are in their 40s or 5Os who are unable, for some reason or other, to do any other job and the only thing that they can do is hawking, either set up a stall or go round. Why should they be deprived? Why should they be told, "You wait till you are 60-65 years old and then go to the Ministry of Social Affairs, get your public assistance, and then come to us." The Ministry should re-think this policy.

May I suggest to the Ministry and to this Government that policies and rules must be made to suit people and their conditions. It is not a question of making your policies and then getting people to suit them. It is the other way, as in the old adage, laws are made for man, not man for laws. I would ask the Minister not to be so rigid in the application of Government policy or rules but to try and fit them to the needs and conditions of the people.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: On a point of clarification, Sir. What I said just now was that itinerant hawkers are unlicensed hawkers and therefore illegal, and we should eradicate this unhealthy phenomenon because besides littering the place they are also flouting our laws.

I wonder whether the Member for Anson is a bit worried in that, if we clear these unlicensed hawkers, he could not go round selling his newspapers which is considered unlicensed hawking also. But that was not my intention. My intention was to speak for my constituents who are concerned about littering and -

Mr Jeyaretnam: How are they littering?

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: The Member is not the Member for Telok Blangah, Sir, although he tried twice. I do not know how they do it in Anson. I am not prepared to comment. But I am more concerned about the condition in Telok Blangah which I represent the constituents.

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff (Kaki Bukit): Sir, I share the same concern as my PAP colleagues, the Members for Whampoa and Telok Blangah, with regard to the intention of the Ministry of the Environment to raise the rental fees of hawker stalls for both cooked food and market produce. I understand the rationale for the need to raise these rental fees, and I am also confident that our Government has enough concern and care for its citizens that it is ready to review the matter to ensure that differential rental fees can be applied to different places.

I would like to take this opportunity to make a special appeal on behalf of the hawker stallholders at Block 630 of Bedok Reservoir Road who have been resettled from Lorong Tai Seng market. They have a special case because they have just been resettled and they are trying to settle down. So I hope the Ministry does not raise the rental fees for these hawker stalls. 5.00 p.m.

Mr Lai Tha Chai (Henderson): Sir, I share the sentiments expressed by my colleagues, especially the Member for Whampoa.

The PAP Government has been subsidizing hawker centres since it came to power in 1959. One of the original reasons was to solve the unemployment problem which occurred in the fifties and sixties. The other was, and still is, to provide good food for the people at a low price-

But time has changed. We have reached full employment since 1972. Everyone can get a job if he or she is willing to work. On the other hand, hawker centres such as the Membina Barat Hawker Centre which is in my constituency, continue to offer cooked food at low prices, while others, like the Newton Cooked Food Centre, offer food which can no longer be considered as economical.

The Government does not intend to subsidize the hawker centres. I support this policy if it applies to the hawker centres which cater mainly for the tourists, such as the Newton Cooked Food Centre as has been mentioned or the newly built and modern hawker centres. Do you think that the Government should subsidize those hawkers whose income is more than a top civil servant?

However, not all hawkers are that lucky. Some of the stalls situated in old HDB estates do not make much money. They can only hawk for short hours in the morning, but not in the afternoon when the housewives in the area do their marketing. These hawkers will not be able to survive if their subsidy from the Government is withdrawn. Those hawkers who are very old may not be able to change their trade at this juncture.

May I ask the Hon. Minister what steps he intends to take to help those hawkers who will be badly affected by the withdrawal of the Government subsidy starting next month?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I first reply to the Member for Whampoa. There are 10,700 public toilets in Singapore. Some of these are well maintained but many are not satisfactorily maintained. It is important for both the management and members of the public to realize their responsibilities in keeping public toilets clean. Whilst the Ministry's health inspectors can and will continue to inspect the public toilets regularly and take enforcement action when necessary, the condition of the toilets can only improve if management pay more attention to the maintenance of public toilets and if members of the public make, a concerted effort to use the toilets with consideration for others.

Public health inspectors can easily take action against management for dirty toilets. However, it is difficult to check on the users of the toilets without intruding on their privacy. The Ministry has conducted an intensive survey of all public toilets in Singapore early this year, and subsequently issued notices to the managements and proprietors of commercial buildings, eating establishments and other public places where the public toilets need to be repaired or upgraded. They will be given six months to make the necessary improvements. Thereafter, the Ministry will go out to the public to appeal to them to use public toilets properly. The Ministry realizes that it will not be easy to teach the public how to use public toilets properly as this is a sensitive and personal matter but, nonetheless, every effort will be made to bring the message across. The fullest cooperation from everyone is needed if we want to see the standard of cleanliness of public toilets improved.

The Ministry pays close attention to the personal hygiene of food handlers in eating establishments. All hawkers and their assistants, cooks, waiters, waitresses in hotels, restaurants, schools and office canteens are required to be medically screened and inoculated once every three years against typhoid.

As for ducks being hung out to dry in the open air, mentioned by the Member for Whampoa, the inspectors of the Ministry will take enforcement action whenever they come across such practices. But generally, the management of the restaurants should take the initial action to ensure that such practices do not take place. It will be difficult for the health inspectors to be present everywhere at all times of the year.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the subject of hawkers has always been a hot topic in this House. This is perhaps to be expected as, traditionally, hawking has always been associated with the poor and the under-privileged in our society. I presume this must be the underlying reason that has prompted so many Members of Parliament to take up cudgels on behalf of the hawkers. Viewed in this light, I am glad that in our materialistic society where the philosophy appears to be everyone for himself, as the world does not owe us a living, there are still MPs who have a soft heart for the underdogs. However, this appears to run smack against the constant advocacy of the need to make hard-headed and invariably unpleasant decisions for the long-term good and interest of the society. In their eagerness to take up issues for the hawkers, they should not overlook the many instances of cooked food hawkers who first obtained a cooked food licence on hardship grounds and have since prospered to the extent of owning a Mercedes and also sending their children abroad for further studies. Yet, despite their success in the hawking business, they have shown no desire to give up their hawker stalls which are heavily subsidized by the public. I would be much happier if the very MPs who have spoken up for the poor hawkers will also make a plea to these prosperous hawkers to give up their heavily subsidized stalls to the needy.

Mr Speaker, Sir, a study team on the retail distribution system known as STRED was formed to examine the retail distribution trade in Singapore. It recommended, among other things, a fundamental restructuring of the wet market system, including phasing out of wet markets to release precious labour into the industrial sector, the setting up of supermarkets and specialty stores to replace the wet markets, and the charging of market rates, etc. In view of this radical recommendation, a special review committee, chaired by my former Senior Parliamentary Secretary, including the Parliamentary Secretary (Ministry of National Development) and a few other Members of Parliament and officials from the relevant Ministries, was thereafter appointed to look into the social and political implications of the recommendations of STRED. In a chapter entitled "Social and Political Background", the Committee commented:

'Hawkers were a major social and political issue in the '5Os and early '60s when unemployment was high. As hawking provided a way out for the unemployed, Government was, therefore, liberal in issuing hawker licences.

By the late '60s, the employment situation improved, To limit the number of hawkers in the Republic and to ensure that the able-bodied men were channelled to more productive sectors of the economy, the register for hawkers was closed in December 1969. The total number of hawkers then was 24,843. For public health reasons and because hawkers were socially disadvantaged people, the Government adopted the policy of subsidizing them by providing food centres and markets for hawkers to conduct their trade under clean and hygienic conditions. Hawkers were charged a nominal sum as licence fee or rental for their stalls. Another reason for subsidizing was that they provided a cheap source of food for the lower and middle income groups. During the years when wages had to be kept low to build up the economy, hawkers helped to lower the cost of living. As the economy strengthened and wages increased, the provision of a cheap source of food by hawkers helped to contain inflation. Hawkers have, therefore, in their own way contributed to the economy.

In the '70s the situation changed. With full employment and higher wages, there was a great demand for hawker food as working families often eat out. Hawking became lucrative and was not just a way out for the unemployed. Many able-bodied young men, attracted by the profits of cooked food hawking applied for hawker stalls.'

5.15 p.m.

The studies have established that the existing wet market distribution system is labour-intensive and there is a decline in the demand for wet market stalls. There are currently more than 2,000 vacant stalls in wet markets. However, about 66% of the 20,600 people who are in the trade now are above 40 years of age, and they will find it difficult to find alternative employment if wet markets are phased out completely. Therefore, the alternative retail distribution system in the form of supermarkets and neighbourhood shops as recommended by the STRED and supported by the Review Committee will only be introduced in the new HDB estates. So the Member for Whampoa can rest assured that the market in his constituency will not be phased out yet. I understand the HDB has already started to allocate neighbourhood shops for market produce in some of their new estates.

Mr Speaker, Sir, Government subsidy for hawkers takes the following forms:

(a) the rental or licence fee for hawker stalls;

(b) the cost of maintaining the markets and food centres;

(c) the cost of refuse removal services. Hawkers pay for the rent of their stalls and the maintenance of the market through the licence fees. However, the licence fees are below economic rates and do not even cover the construction cost of the market. The Special Review Committee recommended that the economic rates should cover the construction costs and operating costs, including the maintenance of the markets and food centres. The Committee feels that hawkers should no longer be considered as a special group of people to be accorded special privileges and subsidized by Government in their trade. With full employment there should be no need for people to turn to hawking as a means of livelihood. Those who wish to do so must not expect to be protected from market forces by Government subsidies. Some hawkers, Mr Speaker, Sir, in private markets are paying rentals more than double or treble the licence fees of hawkers in Government and statutory boards' markets. Marginal hawkers have survived because of the subsidies and this has resulted in inefficient use of manpower. The Committee therefore recommends that the subsidy for hawkers be removed and that hawkers be treated on an equal footing with people in other trades and be subjected to economic forces in attaining their viability. As a start, the Committee recommends that hawkers should be made to bear the cost of refuse removal services which we have done. Further, hawker licence fees should be increased to economic rates. To ease the impact, however, the subsidy can be removed in stages. With the removal of subsidies in the licence fees pegged at economic rates, any person who wishes to be a hawker may apply for a vacant hawker stall in a market or food centre.

The Committee further recommends that in the meantime the existing policy of controlling the hawker population be continued until all street hawkers are relocated to market or cooked food centres. Until then, vacant market produce stalls in existing markets will be given only to Singapore citizens who are unemployed and above 40 years old with the exception of the physically handicapped.

Mr Speaker, Sir, arising from these studies, the Government has now decided that hawkers should not continue to be subsidized. This took into consideration the tremendous increase in construction cost of a cooked food stall from $6,000 in 1973 to $40,000 today. Therefore, hawker licence fees will be increased gradually over the next few years, starting from 1st April 1983, to bring it closer to the economic rental which reflects the construction and maintenance cost of markets and food centres. Even with the increases, the fees will still be much lower than the rental paid by stallholders in private food centres and coffee shops. The gradual increase in fees will give hawkers time to adjust to the higher cost of operating their stalls. But they will have to sharpen their culinary and business skills to remain viable. It would prompt many of the hawkers to work harder, raise productivity and work more efficiently.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Ministry's immediate priority is to relocate the remaining 2,300 street hawkers into vacant stalls in existing markets and food centres. These street hawkers are mainly in the central business district where land is limited and too expensive to be allocated for construction of markets and food centres. Vacant market produce stalls will have to be converted to cooked food stalls in view of the large number of cooked food hawkers to be relocated. We will therefore have to accord less priority to those who apply for hawker licences on grounds of financial hardship. They can be considered only after the needs of street hawkers are met. In any case, it will be difficult for them especially if they do not have the necessary skills to make a living from hawking as licence fees will gradually be increased over the next few years to reduce the heavy subsidy.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in 1982, some 5,250 applications for hawker licences on grounds of hardship were received by the Hawkers Department. Of these, 299 applications were approved but only 45 in the end took up the stalls offered to them. Generally, the Ministry has found that those who were allocated licences -on grounds of hardship are very choosy. Hence, of the 205 applicants offered cooked food stalls, only 33 took up the offer, and of 77 applicants offered market produce stalls, only 12 took up the offer. None of the 17 who were offered piece and sundry stalls accepted the offer. Many turned down the offer because the stall offered was not in the locality of their choice.

Of the total applications received, 4,999 or 93% were for cooked food stalls. Many who were offered market produce or piece and sundry stalls instead of cooked food stalls refused the offer. It appears therefore that most applicants view cooked food as a lucrative trade and not merely as a means of livelihood.

Mr Speaker, Sir, there are many factors which contribute to the success and popularity of the market or food centre aside from its location. These include the culinary and business skills of the hawkers, various types of food sold, prices, maintenance of premises, etc. Singaporeans are known to travel long distances, even across the Causeway, to patronize popular food stalls and restaurants. In some of the more popular food centres today, including the Newton Hawker Centre, we have met with great resistance from the hawkers themselves during the relocation process. Therefore, the location of a food centre may not be the best criterion to use in determining the fees to be levied. The success or otherwise of a market or food centre depends ultimately on the hawkers themselves. There is therefore only a very tenuous relationship between the fees paid and the profitability of the hawkers.

Sir, I have chosen to reply in general to various Members on this subject as I think it will help them to understand the problem better. The Member for Kaki Bukit has requested that the hawkers who were resettled into the market at Block 630 be exempted from the increase in fees. I am afraid this cannot be done as hawkers' fees even with the increase are still highly subsidized. Markets and food centres are built to meet the needs of residents within a large enough catchment area to ensure its viability. It is up to the hawkers themselves to make the markets and food centres a success. In the case of the hawkers from Lorong Tai Seng who were resettled into Block 630, Bedok Reservoir Road, which is located in the midst of a large HDB housing estate, I understand that the market is reasonably well patronized and the business should pick up after all the residents have moved into their flats.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I thank the Hon. Minister for the care in which he replied to the various questions which I raised. But I have a few points for him to consider. He mentioned that he has a total of over 10,700 public toilets to look after. I looked up the Public Health Inspectorate and I see that we have scheduled

160 Public Health inspectors to look after these toilets. If they do nothing else, each one would be looking after 67 toilets. I am just wondering whether he has enough manpower or womanpower as the case may be. 5.30 p.m.

Secondly, Sir, while his inspectors are looking into the toilet problem, perhaps they should also look into the supply or the availability of soap and toilet paper and make sure that these are available in each and every toilet. I say this because, even in places like the National University of Singapore, these seem to be scarce commodities.

Sir, the Minister also mentioned that he is looking after the personal hygiene aspects of food handlers and that, in particular, they are subjected to medical examinations and inoculations. But I think he missed the point of my question or the problem which I raised. That had nothing to do with whether they were carriers of disease themselves or whether they were healthy or not. I assume that is well taken care of. I was more concerned with their personal habits of hygiene. You will be surprised, Sir, how many people go to the toilet and never wash their hands. I hope the Minister of State of Education is listening, that he should implement an educa- tional programme in schools - "Wash your hands" campaign. The trouble is that they teach them to use their hands but never teach them to wash them.

Coming next to the problem of hawkers, I think the Minister has taken pains to study the problem. But there are a number of points which I take issue with him e.g. the cost of $40,000 per stall which he mentioned. Now, if one were to assume roughly 40 square feet per stall, maybe a little bit more, that works out to $1,000 construction cost per square foot. That seems to me to be an extremely high figure, even for the most expensive commercial building. I am not an architect, neither am I an engineer, but I think that is rather exorbitant, especially for a humble hawker stall.

Secondly, Sir, there are ways of cutting down this cost. For example, one need not use the piece of land solely for a hawker centre but, as in many housing estates, the hawker centres are integrated into buildings which serve other purposes. We have the example of Cuppage Road Hawker Centre where even the Ministry of Health has offices on top while the wet market and hawker centre are below, to the convenience of the Ministry staff and other people there. That should reduce the construction cost considerably.

Another factor in terms of the construction cost has to do with the valuation of land. This time, and again I take issue with the Government bench, Government insists on using market prices. Government sets market prices by its very policies. I mean, to me it is a nonsensical thing for Government to say, "We are going to value this land at market cost." We have the recent case of HUDC trying to value land at market cost, or market price. Government is the largest landowner in Singapore. Government's actions have tremendous macro-economic repercussions. Government can make or break the price of land in the market. So I fail to see how this costing comes about.

But, Sir, more seriously, if the fees are going to be revised at all, and they are going to be revised in the light of current construction cost, then I think all the Members of Parliament should take issue with the Minister concerned, because many of our hawker centres are built in times when the construction costs were very much less. Now we are talking of a uniform revision of hawkers' fee regardless of the age of the hawker centre or market and regardless of the location. Here again, I fail to understand the economics behind this particular decision.

I know the Minister has to contend with the boys in the Ministry of Finance or the Ministry of Trade and Industry, but maybe I can give him some ammunition to counter them. I am very concerned about this issue. People may ask me why am I so concerned about the livelihood of hawkers. The Hon. Minister mentioned the hawker who bought a Mercedes Benz. I can show him hundreds or thousands of hawkers who are still very poor, after years of hawking. It depends on the location. It depends on the skills of the hawker in question. Not every hawker sends his children to America or to Europe. One cannot go by the standard, as I say, of Telok Ayer or of Newton Hawker Centre. The hawker centres have served Singapore well. They have provided employment for handicapped people, for widows, for people who find it inconvenient to have a full-time job. If a woman is a widow and she wants to have a means of livelihood, and if she were to work in a factory, she would have to hire somebody to look after the children. But if she were running a hawker stall, she could have the children around her. She could look after them, and not have to pay the extra charges involved.

Singapore is developing very rapidly and that is fine. But there are lots of people who may be left behind in the race towards greater material progress and I think we have to have a heart for some of these people. We have got to give them a place in the sun. We have got to be able to slot those people who cannot be slotted elsewhere into our economy. If we keep on thinking of people as digits and wanting to reshuffle them around the place, then I think we are doing serious injury to the social fabric of Singapore.

I really cannot understand the logic of this Committee called STRED. On the one hand it talks about saving labour and so on and phasing out the current system, and on the other hand it talks about once having increased the hawker licence fees to what they call "economic rentals", then anyone may apply, including the ablebodied. This is like reasoning in a vicious circle. On the one hand we say we do not want our able-bodied to become hawkers, and on the other hand now we say, "All right. We want to charge market rentals. And once we have achieved that, then, we will let everybody come in, those who want to be hawkers." To me, it is nonsensical. We have got to have a consistent policy.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, besides the question of hawker fees, I also asked the Minister what the objection in principle was to granting licences to itinerant hawkers. I do not think he has dealt with that, and may I know what is the objection in principle to that? Not to everybody but to selected people who have been in the trade for years.

Secondly, I asked him also about the criteria of hardship, and I said that last time he gave us an example of persons drawing public assistance. So I asked, "Is that the only criteria?" I would like to hear more on this from him.

The other question is the fees. I do not want to go over what the Member for Whampoa has said. But there is this question of the cost to the Ministry. The Ministry is not selling the stalls, as I understand it. It only rents out these stalls. What is the span of years over which the Ministry expects to recoup its expenditure? I take it that when these markets are built, they are not going to last only five years or ten years. What is the life span of these markets? And over how long a period are you planning to recoup your capital outlay on these markets? I think we need to know a little bit more about all this. It is no good saying, "Construction costs have gone up. So, my dear chap; you have to pay 1 1/2 times your fees." I think the public have to be informed. The other point which has been mentioned is that hawking is not only the livelihood of the hawkers. The hawkers are still rendering a public service to the people of Singapore. That must be considered. So I would ask the Minister to consider this.

He talks about hawkers owning Mercedes Benz cars. May I suggest then that perhaps the Ministry could think of varying licence fees, depending on the earnings of these hawkers. This could be done by giving a rebate where the hawker is able to produce his accounts or income tax returns to show that he is not making very much; that was all he was making. Then he could get his rebate. This would be something to show that you are taking care of his particular condition and situation, and not imposing a flat fee applied everywhere all over Singapore to everybody regardless of his earnings or his ability to earn.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, there are really no itinerant hawkers as such. The instance mentioned by the Member for Telok Blangah is, in fact, a stationary hawker and not an itinerant hawker. If I understand him, the so-called itinerant hawker goes to Telok Blangah, parks his vehicle there, and conducts his business. It is stationary; it is not itinerant. I think the objection is mainly on grounds of public health because these itinerant hawkers are unlicensed and therefore they are not medically screened and we have no means of knowing where they prepare their food; and whether the food is prepared hygienically or not. So it poses a health hazard, besides littering and polluting the place.

As regards hardship criteria, I have given instances of hardship criteria. One is recipient of public assistance and the other is an unemployed person over the age of 40, or the physically handicapped who is not able to do any other job.

It is difficult to fix different rates for different markets or in different zones. This will mean arbitrary action on the part of the Ministry. The correct way will be, as the Minister for National Development always advocated, that these stalls should go for public tender and let the market forces decide on the rates. Maybe if that is what Members prefer, I will certainly consider it very seriously by tendering out all the vacant stalls.

I agree with the Member for Whampoa that the school is the best place to inculcate the habits of personal hygiene, especially when the school-going children are still young. Once they become adults, it is a bit more difficult. But we will try our best, although I must say the number of health inspectors that we have at the moment is inadequate to cover all the public toilets plus the inspection of restaurants and various kinds of food establishments and so forth. The cooperation of every member of the public is necessary.

As for the cost of construction of a hawker still, the Minister for National Development is probably the authority on this subject. But the construction cost is not just confined to the hawker stall but also the refreshment area, the concourse, the footpath, and the various facilities.

An hon. Member: Toilets.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Yes, toilets. 5.45 p.m.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, there is one other point mentioned by the Minister which I seek clarification. He mentioned that many a time when applicants on hardship criteria were offered stalls other than cooked food stalls, they turned them down saying that they preferred to have cooked food stalls. He thinks that this is because it is more lucrative to sell cooked food. I beg to disagree with him. There is a simple reason why they choose cooked food stalls, and it is that that is the only thing that they know how to do, i.e. cooking. In order to sell fish, pork or any raw produce, you need to have some business sense. In fact, to sell fish or pork, you have to wake up at two or three o'clock in the morning, and for a widow to go all the way to Jurong or to the abattoir, and come back, is quite a job, and I do not think she can undertake that. So I hope he will be more sympathetic in future when requests are made to him. But I know the difficulties he faces and, as I said, I stand ready to give ammunition to support the case that I was trying to make, and I thank him very much for his reply. With this, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I propose to take the Suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 6.20 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.46 p.m. until 6.20 p.m. Sitting resumed at 6.20 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head M (cont.) -

The Chairman: Amendment No. (2)*, Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here. Amendment No. (3), Dr Ow.

Dr Ow Chin Hock (Leng Kee): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, under this amendment, I would like to raise two points. The first is an old issue, a nagging issue. The Minister may recall that in the debate on his Ministry's budget on 18th March, 1982, I asked whether his Ministry would allow coffeeshop owners and operators of small eating houses to make use of the open space, i.e. to put tables and chairs outside their premises. At that time, I suggested to the then Senior Parliamentary Secretary that a compromised scheme could be worked out. The then Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment promised to look into this matter.

Sir, may I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the former Senior Parliamentary Secretary and Member for Bukit Timah (he is not here). He has done a lot for the hawkers and stallholders in Singapore for the past 19 years. He was particularly sympathetic with the old, the poor, the underprivileged and widows. No wonder he was nicknamed "Hawker King." I believe many Members of this House also share my feelings and sentiments for him

Nevertheless, Sir, I would like to press on with this issue of eating houses and coffeeshops. This time the Minister himself has to reply. Could the Minister inform the House what has happened to the proposed scheme, i.e. that coffeeshop owners and small eating house operators be allowed to put their tables and chairs outside? If so, what are the conditions attached? If not, what are the reasons?

Another point concerns anti-smoking. Sir, 1983 seems to be a bad year for smokers. First, the Minister for Trade and Industry raises the duty on cigarettes and tobacco. Then the Member for Whampoa condemns smokers as sinners. May I ask the Minister to consider, under the so-called Prohibition on Smoking in Certain Places Act, whether he will ban smoking in departmental stores and supermarkets. There are many reasons why smoking should be prohibited in these places. First of all, these places are air-conditioned and enclosed. There is no fresh air and smoking will cause air pollution. Secondly, departmental stores carry flammable items like garments, textiles, paper products, furniture and so on. In supermarkets cigarette smoke may get into fresh vegetables, meat and fish, and this is unhealthy and can cause health problems. Thirdly, these places are crowded during weekends and holidays and during the festive seasons.

I am rather concerned about smokers, including the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for National Development, walking around in these places with lighted cigarettes between their fingers, because they may accidentally burn the cute face of young children who are not aware of this danger. May I ask the Minister whether his Ministry could do something about this, or can his Ministry ask the management of supermarkets and departmental stores to do something about it?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, in general, the Ministry does not allow eating establishments-to extend their business on to five-foot ways, roadsides and other public areas when such areas do not form part of the approved layout of the premises. To ensure that eating establishments operate under hygienic conditions, the layout must be carefully planned so that there will be adequate kitchen and storage areas. For example, the common kitchen area for an eating house should be 25% of the refreshment area. The stipulation for a minimum kitchen area is necessary as otherwise the operator would find himself preparing food under cramped and unhygienic conditions.

In the last Budget session of Parliament, my former Senior Parliamentary Secretary did reply to the effect that if the shopkeeper wishes to extend his area of operation he must first enlarge the kitchen area and also improve the other facilities. If the operator of the eating establishment can satisfy the condition, the Ministry can give favourable consideration.

The reason why the refreshment area is related to the size of the kitchen is that all too often the Ministry found eating establishments and restaurants having to extend their kitchen to the backyard with no proper washing or waste disposal facilities. Sometimes food is also prepared in the back lanes when they try to cater for more customers than they could cope. There is also the problem of littering and so forth. But nevertheless in the last two years the Department had approved 14 applications for extension of the dining area on to adjacent concourses and vacant land. The Department gave the approval after ascertaining that the kitchen and the storage areas were adequate and that the extension would not cause disturbance to the residents nearby.

As for smoking ban, the Ministry does not have any plans to impose a ban on smoking in supermarkets and departmental stores. We have studied the experience and practice in other countries where people shop mainly in supermarkets and departmental stores. We found that the Americans and the Japanese do not legislate against smoking in supermarkets and departmental stores. Whilst Canada and Germany have laws prohibiting smoking in such places, the ban was imposed for safety rather than for public health. In this respect we have received no complaints from the Fire Service. There is no evidence yet that smoking, though undesirable in supermarkets, is posing a health hazard. 6.30 p.m.

However, the Ministry has noticed that a number of supermarkets and departmental stores have their own house rules against smoking, These rules are observed by the public. These places are generally not smoky or stuffy and the food displayed is not affected. The Ministry will encourage the supermarkets and departmental stores to follow suit and introduce their own house rules against smoking.

Dr Ow Chin Hock: Sir, may I ask the Minister whether the supermarkets or departmental stores with their own house rules include the NTUC supermarkets?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, yes, in some of the NTUC supermarkets.

Dr Ow Chin Hock: Sir, in view of the time factor, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-02 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, as we are all aware, the collection and disposal of garbage is done mainly by two Government agencies, the Housing and Development Board and the Ministry of the Environment. Thousands of tons of refuse and industrial waste are produced each month. No one seems to care where the waste goes to as long as it goes away. With our rapid industrialization and public housing programme, more garbage and industrial waste will be produced in a concentration of areas. Has the Ministry, together with the HDB, developed a long-term plan in garbage and industrial waste collection and disposal? For instance, in HDB estates and other high-rise buildings, garbage chutes are a common primary waste disposal device. Concentration of garbage at the base of the chutes, if not regularly collected, can lead to serious health hazards. It is also a common practice, in addition to the sometimes irregular flushing of these rubbish chutes, for residents in these high-rise buildings to do their own flushing of these chutes, causing water to accumulate in the bins below and the inside ledge of the rubbish chute, thus unintentionally breeding mosquitoes. I have come across this practice in my house to house visits.

Remedial measures are only temporary. We should examine the whole system of garbage and industrial waste collection at source and also final disposal. Our rubbish chutes were introduced more than 25 years ago, the only adequate means of garbage disposal. Does the present method of industrial waste collection by the Environmental Health Division and other private organizations meet the needs of the future? As a matter of fact, some of the garbage bin compounds in Housing Board estates are a source of nuisance !o the residents due to poor maintenance in some cases. I would suggest that the Environmental Health Division, in conjunction with the HDB and JTC, explore the following possibilities:-

(1) Mount a joint campaign to encourage householders to dispose of their garbage in a proper and healthy manner, using plastic bags, for instance.

(2) Encourage industries, HDB and JTC industrial flats and factories, to instal industrial waste compressing and disposal equipment and to provide tax incentives for industries that instal such equipment.

(3) Consider the introduction of legislation to control the use of non re-useable containers.

(4) Encourage the Economic Development Board to set up industries for the recycling of industrial waste.

Sir, in Japan the recycling industry is making a high technology comeback. Housewives are encouraged to divide trash into combustibles and non-combustibles and to separate trash in five different ways. For example, high calorie waste, such as paper and vegetation, is used to create heat energy; low calorie waste, like food scraps, can be composted and combined with human waste to make natural fertilizers as a substitute for imported chemical fertilizers. Materials like plastics can also be used as land fills for reclamation projects. In this way waste can be transformed into resources. In a housing estate in Osaka, a central mechanized garbage system was successfully implemented, thus contributing to the improvement of the environment.

Perhaps the Hon. Minister should make a visit to this lovely city to see for himself the various measures in waste management. This will help to solve a growing waste disposal problem and reduce the need to instal too many expensive incinerators which pollutes the environment and the utilization of scarce land for land fills.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, there are two principal ways of disposing wastes in Singapore. One is by dumping at the dumping ground and the other is by incineration. As the House may be aware, incineration has been found to be the most effective and economic means in terms of land use for disposing waste whether domestic or industrial. The present incineration plant in Ulu Pandan can handle a capacity of 1,600 tons of waste a day, and with the completion of a second incineration plant in Tuas, which can handle a capacity of another 2,000 tons of refuse a day in 1986, we will be able to incinerate about 80% or 85% of the waste produced in Singapore by 1986. As for the dumping ground which we have in the land-fill sites at Lorong Halus and Lim Chu Kang, these two sites will be able to cater for all the refuse and waste collected in Singapore for the next 20 years.

The Member for Toa Payoh has mentioned about the nuisance caused by refuse collection in the Housing Board estates. It is true that under the present system, multiple chutes in HDB blocks of flats are constructed, each leading into a bin placed at the bottom. The bins are carried each day to a bin centre and the contents emptied into the refuse truck when it arrives at the bin centre. The advantage of this system is that every household has direct access to the chute from the kitchen. However, the problem observed by the Member for Toa Payoh is true. In this system we cannot avoid a certain amount of spilling, smell and so forth. It is for this reason that shopkeepers, hawkers and residents can help if they put their refuse in plastic bags. A better solution, of course, is for the HDB to consider alternative means of providing waste disposal in their building plans. Whether or not the present system is 20 years behind time, I do not know, but the Member has suggested that we should pay a visit to Osaka to study how waste is disposed there. We will certainly look into it.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, in view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ng Kah Ting:

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead M B-02 Project 8105 of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment (5). Mr Ng Kah Ting is not here.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-03 Object Group 1310 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, the Ministry of the Environment's workforce comprises mainly daily rated employees, totalling some 6,638 employees as at December 1982, which is about 71% of the workforce. The remaining 29% is made up of 2% Division I officers, 5% Division 11 officers, 14% Division Ill officers and 8% Division IV officers. The Ministry's ability, therefore, to successfully attain its objective of maintaining a high standard of environmental public health and cleanliness depends to a large extent on the productivity of the daily rated employees. They have contributed enormously to make Singapore a clean, green and beautiful city. Sir, it is, therefore, important for the Ministry of the Environment to have a personnel policy which is fair to the daily rated employees, giving them just rewards and the recognition they deserve for their dedicated and loyal service. Let me now touch briefly on the following main areas:

Terms and Conditions of Service

The Ministry should endeavour to improve the terms and conditions of service of its daily rated employees. It should help them to earn better salaries and to improve their status especially when they are an important part of the Ministry's workforce. One way is to provide them with opportunities to be trained and to acquire skills. The majority of the daily rated employees workforce, about 74%, are unskilled. This is a difficult area, especially when most of them do not have basic education. Furthermore, most of them are over 40 years old. However, the Ministry could help to encourage them, especially the younger daily rated employees, to participate in the Basic Education courses and to provide them with incentives to do so. The Ministry could also help them to pick up simple and practical skills, like becoming drivers of mechanized sweepers, motor mechanics, and so on. 6.45 p.m.

Relationship between the Supervisors and Daily Rated Employees

The Ministry should pay close attention to the working relationship between the daily rated employees and their supervisors. The daily rated employees should be treated with respect. They should be treated as human beings and not as work digits. While the relationship between the supervisors and their daily rated employees is generally satisfactory, there are, however, occasions where the relationship has deteriorated because of the lack of tact and the lack of concern and understanding shown by the supervisors for the daily rated employees under their charge.

The Ministry should monitor the supervisors closely to ensure that they do not take advantage of the daily rated employees because of their lack of education and also their status as daily rated employees. The supervisors must bear in mind that the daily rated employees work under difficult conditions and they should be flexible in their supervision, especially when it is clear that their daily rated employees are working conscientiously. While there is a need to maintain discipline, understanding and flexibility in their supervision will go a long way towards developing close rapport between them and build up teamwork and team spirit.

Incentive Schemes for the Daily Rated Employees

Currently the Ministry of the Environment has a scheme to award deserving and hardworking daily rated employees with monetary awards once every six months. However, the number of awards given is small, considering the large workforce. Could the Ministry review whether the scheme is effective, and consider giving more awards? Many daily rated employees have put in long years of dedicated and loyal service. Could the Ministry also consider long service awards to them, which will show that the Ministry recognizes their contribution?

Finally, from time to time, the Ministry of the Environment reorganizes the work of the departments under its charge. It is important that such reorganization gives careful consideration to the welfare of the employees affected by the reorganization. I believe there is a proposal to close the Toh Tuck Road Nightsoil Station with effect from 1st April 1983. Some 61 daily rated employees would be affected. Most of them are over 40 years old. I hope that the Ministry will look into their welfare and see that they do not suffer undue hardship because of this reorganization.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the contribution of the daily rated employees (DREs) in my Ministry towards keeping Singapore clean and green is well known. We all appreciate the services put in by the DREs. Of the 6,500 daily rated employees employed by the Ministry, 4,800 are engaged in unskilled work including street cleansing, refuse collection, sewerage work, anti-malarial oilers, etc. The remaining 1,700 are semi-skilled or skilled workers in areas including carpentry, welding, electrical and pipe fittings, motor mechanics.

Sir, there are ample opportunities for DREs to either improve their educational levels or skills in the Ministry. These include full and part-time courses in upgrading skills, in-service training and classes under the BEST programme. From our experience, the main problem is in motivating the DREs to seek self-improvement by taking advantage of the various training opportunities offered. In 1982, 26 awards for VITB courses to upgrade skills in welding, electrical and pipe fittings and motor mechanics were offered. Trainees were granted full-pay leave, However, only six awards were eventually taken up. 78 DREs signed up for classes conducted under the BEST programme. To date, 40 have dropped out. Nevertheless, the Ministry will continue to offer these awards and classes if there is sufficient response. Departmental heads will be asked to counsel those DREs who are interested to take advantage of these opportunities.

In-service courses are conducted to enable the unskilled workers to upgrade and acquire skills to enhance their prospects with the Ministry. In 1982, a total of

20 DREs attended in-service courses as pump drivers, drivers of specialized vehicles, etc. These in-service courses will continue to be provided.

The 6,500 daily rated employees who have to be employed by the Ministry have to be detailed everyday for street cleansing, refuse collection, sewerage works and so forth. The Ministry establishes rapport and close working relationship with the DREs at two levels, with the unions and the DREs themselves. It maintains dia- logue with the union to keep it informed of policy changes and other major developments which affect the welfare of the DREs. Supervisors, on the other hand, are constantly reminded to provide clear instructions to the DREs and establish good working relationships. As far as we are aware, there is no serious problem of lack of communication between the Ministry and the unions and the supervisors and workers, aside from the usual minor problems arising from human interactions and supervisor/worker relationships which are inevitable in any large organization.

Numerous consultations and meetings are held between the Ministry officers and leaders of the various daily rated employees' unions to discuss problems faced by workers, workers' performance, attitude and welfare and to explain to the union leaders the rationale for new policies and major changes in operation that will be introduced. Any suggestions and comments brought up by the unions are taken into consideration before the implementation of the changes. This will ensure that there is trust and cooperation between the Ministry and the unions and there will not be any misunderstanding between the supervisors and the DREs.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

6.50 p.m.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: At the operational level, supervisors periodically meet their workers in the morning at mustering and also visit the various work sites to inspect and supervise the workers. These visits ensure that work is properly done and that the workers have understood the instructions given to them. During these visits, the workers can -also ask the supervisor for assistance on work problems.

To improve communication between workers and supervisors, talks have been organized for the workers on basic work instructions and work safety measures. The talks not only serve to ensure that all workers have a clear understanding of what is expected of them at work but also serve to remind supervisors that they should not take for granted that work instructions no matter how simple are common knowledge.

The relationships between supervisors and workers have also improved with the involvement of union representatives in the discipline of workers. Workers who have repeatedly absented themselves or who have not followed the instructions of their supervisors or whose work performance is poor are counselled by their supervisors, heads of department and the respective union representatives before any disciplinary action is taken against them. If the worker still does not show any improvement after counselling, he would then be given a written warning or be fined up to three days' wages.

The good workers, on the other hand, are presented monetary awards based on the assessment of their supervisors. The monetary awards are presented twice a year. As for the amount, we constantly review it in relation to the amount of money that we have. We also award long service awards for those who have served the Ministry loyally for a long period of time in recognition of their work.

The Ministry is also in the process of organizing courses for front-line supervisors on supervisory techniques. The course will be held on a regular basis for all front-line supervisors. This will help supervisors to communicate with and manage their workers better.

Various recreational activities are also organized by the supervisors for the workers and their families during the year. These include visits to the Zoo, the Bird Park, carnival and amusement park and joint MREs and DREs sporting activities.

Mr Speaker, Sir, most of the functions of the Ministry are labour intensive. As far as possible, we have and will continue to mechanize and automate in order to increase productivity and, at the same time, reduce our dependence on labour intensive methods. Those who are affected by mechanization and automation of particular functions need not be worried about losing their jobs, as the Ministry will be able to redeploy them if they are willing to take on new work. The Toh Tuck Road Nightsoil Station, for instance, will be closed some time in the latter part of the year. Some of the DREs who are affected will be retrained, if necessary, and re- deployed elsewhere within the Ministry to take on new work. As far as possible, the Ministry will try to effect transfer with minimum inconvenience to the workers.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I would just like to ask the Minister if he would ask his officers to investigate why there is poor response to the various training courses. I believe for the basic education courses, it is located somewhere in Jurong and the workers find it difficult to go there.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, I will certainly look into the problem.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. 7.00 p.m. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead MB-03 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis:

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi:

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam:

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff:

Mr Lai Tha Chai: (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead M B-05 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: (9) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead M D-02 Project 8113 of the Development Estimates, (10) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead M D-02 Project 8120 of the Development Estimates.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: (11) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead ME-02 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Ng Kah Ting: (12) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead ME-02 Project 8101 of the Development Estimates. (13) That the sum to be allocated for Head M be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead ME-02 Project 8102 of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (7). Mr Eric Cheong is not here. Amendment No. (8) has already been dealt with. Amendments Nos. (9), (10), (12) and (13), Mr Ng is not here. Amendment No. (11), Dr Lee is not here.

The sum of $175,056,030 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $268,677,000 for Head M ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head S -

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead SB-01 of the Main Estimates.

My purpose in moving this amendment is simply to seek information from the Hon. Minister for Law as to the number of approvals the Land Dealings (Approval) Unit has given to foreigners to purchase residential property in Singapore, other than condominiums and high-rise buildings, higher than six storeys. I would also like to have the number of disapprovals and the criteria that are used in the process.

The Minister for Law (Mr E.W. Barker): Sir, I have with me a table (Cols. 1127 - 1128) showing the approvals and disapprovals on a yearly basis both in respect of persons and companies which I will hand over for the information of Members of this House. [Copies distributed to Members.] In all there have been 2,585 approvals and 884 disapprovals. For the earlier years, some of these figures are not readily available as they are kept in old files and it will take me longer than a week to get the exact numbers. table - NUMBER OF APPLICATIONS APPROVED/DISAPPROVED UNDER THE RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY ACT, 1976 (Cols. 1127 - 1128)

As for criteria, the Act itself lays down the general basis on which approvals to purchase, acquire or retain residential property should be considered. Section 25 of the Act, in particular, sets up the Residential Property Advisory Committee which considers every application and makes recommendations thereon to the Minister as required under the Act.

Sir, applications from foreign persons who are individuals are considered if the applicant is a permanent resident of Singapore and the family does not own any residential property other than units within approved condominiums or units within buildings of six storeys or more. Approval is given on the basis that a house is to be used solely as a residence and not for letting out, and no foreign person is permitted to purchase vacant land. The applicant must also satisfy certain criteria. He must hold academic or professional or technical qualifications combined with relevant years of experience needed by the Republic. He can also qualify if he makes sufficient economic contribution to this country, or has equity participation in enterprises needed here. In the case of applicants who are foreign companies or other foreign organizations, like manufacturing factories or trading companies, they are also considered case by case based on the assessment of their economic contribution to Singapore over the past few years.

Every application is processed by the Controller of Residential Property in consultation with various Government Departments. They are then considered by a Committee of officials headed by my Permanent Secretary, and this Committee's recommendations come up to the Minister for approval.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I also have a table which could be distributed to inform Members of this House as to the number of units or bungalows and semi-detached houses and terraces which were constructed in the years 1973 to 1981. This is Table 8.2 of the Year Book of Statistics (1981-82 Volume). Sir, I am presenting these statistics for comparison with the number of applications approved by the Ministry of Law, because I am concerned at the imbalance which has been created in the market for residential property by such approvals. For example, Sir, in 1973 the total number of new bungalows commenced was only 282; in 1974 147; 1975 122; 1976 67; 1977 43; 1978 42; 1979 82; 1980 118; 1981 185. If one were to look at the semi-detached houses, except for 1973 when 1,007 units were commenced, all the other years have much lower figures. 1974 525; 1975 165; 1976 76; 1977 77; 1978 95; 1979 180; 1980 294 units; 1981 132 units. I shall not bother the House with details about terrace houses. They can look up the table for themselves. But the figures involved are also very small. So it is a matter of concern to me and it should be a matter of concern to this House that the total cumulative approvals as shown in the Minister's table is 2,585 and compared with the paltry number of new buildings built in respect of bungalows and semi-detached houses over the same period, a tremendous imbalance has been created in the domestic market for residential properties.

I would like therefore to urge the Hon. Minister not to be so generous in the future so that the interest of Singaporeans can be better looked after. We all should be concerned over the uncontrolled boom in the property market. There are tremendous repercussions which I feel the Government has not looked into because with booms in property prices, rentals. begin to go up, both rentals on residences as well as commercial properties, and when rentals go up markup on goods go up. So inflation is generated. Already I am told by many tourists that Singapore is no longer a cheap place to shop in. I think we have got to do something about it.

One can also look at the frustrations of Singaporeans who are aspiring to own private residential properties. When such approvals are given to foreigners for bungalows and semi-detached houses and such like, the property market is pushed up. Condominium prices will also be pushed up because, in the first place, foreigners can buy them very readily as well as apartment buildings more than six storeys high. So, again, I would like to appeal to the Hon. Minister to be more tight-fisted in the application of his criteria.

Mr Barker: Sir, the hon. Member made a good point.It is for this reason that this Act was enacted in 1976 but had the force of law from 1973. But times change. The Government made a statement in November 1973 to say that all foreigners cannot buy flats. So my Ministry administered this policy, but it took three years before the Bill which went into Select Committee came into force. Meanwhile policies had changed. During those three years the Government relaxed the policy and said, "Ah, foreigners can buy buildings above six storeys." Later they relaxed further, and went on to say that they can buy condominiums. When I was ready to enact the law, there was a change of mind in some Ministries who felt that the Act was not necessary. But I replied that I had to have it enforced; otherwise there would have to be a lot of unscrambling to do. So over the years, at the start, the Act was administered rather elastically and approvals were given quite easily. Then minds changed and today we are administering the Act very strictly.

I can assure the Member that my Ministry is in constant contact with the Ministry of National Development as to the number of terrace houses and bungalows and semi-detached houses that are available.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I accept that assurance of good behaviour on the part of the Hon. Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. 2. Mr Das, could I just mention that guillotine time is 7.20 p.m.

Mr S. Chandra Das (Chong Boon): Yes, Sir. I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead SB-03 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I would just like to touch on the subject of compensation for land acquired by Government. Sir, in moving the Second Reading of the Land Acquisition (Amendment) Bill in this House on 18th December 1973, the Minister for Law and National Development stated, and I quote: [Hansard Vol. 32 col. 1393]:

'It freezes prices payable on acquisition of land under the Act to the base of market value as at 30th November, 1973, . . .'

Sir, it is now ten years since the base was fixed and a whole host of changes have taken place. I will be interested to know from the Hon. Minister whether there are any plans to review this base.

Mr Barker: Sir, under section 33 (1) (a) of the Land Acquisition Act, the amount of compensation awarded shall be the market value as at 30th November 1973 or the market value as at the date of Gazette notification, whichever is the lower. The appeal by the hon. Member for a review of this provision is not new as it has been raised and debated here previously. 7.15 p.m.

From 1974 to early 1979, the open market value of land was lower than the 1973 level, It was only with the escalation of property prices after 1979 that compensation awards have generally been paid at the November 1973 values. This disparity between the compensation awards under the Act and the open market value as at the date of acquisition has widened, and Government is aware that compensation under the Act to owner-occupiers of dwelling houses or flats may be inadequate to allow such owner-occupiers to obtain suitable alternative accommodation. To provide relief in such instances, Members are aware of Government's recent decision to make ex-gratia payment in addition to compensation payable under the Act. The relief payment together with the acquisition award or the Appeals Board award, if any, would be up to the market value of the acquired property as at the date of Gazette notification for acquisition, or $600,000 whichever is less. This ceiling of $600,000 should enable owner-occupiers of dwelling properties whose land is acquired to buy an average semi-detached house or medium-sized flat. Further, this ex-gratia payment takes retrospective effect from 1st January 1981.

In the meantime, I can assure the hon. Member that the entire question will be reviewed to ascertain how the cost of public projects would be adversely affected if compensation awards under the Act are to be paid at current market value instead of the 1973 value. Increased cost of public developments would necessarily mean that ordinary citizens would have to pay more for public housing and public amenities. Government must therefore, bear in mind the interest of the general public as against the land owners.

Mr Chandra Das: Sir, in view of the Minister's assurance to review the base, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $59,098,440 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $17,786,000 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head Q -

Mr Liew Kok Pun (Boon Teck): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead QA-01 of the Main Estimates*.

Sir, over the past one year, the Minister for Home Affairs has introduced three new, inter-related policy measures, namely, the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme, the Civil Defence Scheme and the Neighbourhood Police Post System (NPP). Taken together and in perspective, these three measures have the dual purpose of providing a total programme for the safety and security of our people as well as extending the roles of the policeman so as to forge a new image for the whole police force.

Sir, I would therefore like to congratulate the Hon. Minister and his Ministry for their dynamism and boldness in charting such new policy directions. It is a radical departure from which people perceive as the role of the police. It brings the police closer to the people. It is people-oriented. For the one common thread linking all the three measures is this move towards people involvement.

Since the latest measure, the Neighbourhood Police Post will be introduced in my Constituency at Boon Teck in June this year, my concern is to ensure that no stone is left unturned to see to its successful implementation. And so, in preparing the ground for the introduction of the NPP system, I have briefed and sought the views of all grassroots organizations in Boon Teck. And what I am going to say now is a reflection of their reservations, their fears and their suggestions.

Sir, one of the key features of the NPP system is the regular home visits by police officers. My concern here is the possibility that this may be double-edged in its effect. The deeply ingrained prejudice people have of the police visiting your home is that it means trouble. I am sure Members of the House here will agree with me that if the police were to unexpectedly knock on your door, you would be surprised. What more with the ordinary housewife! Even mothers are known to have used the police to strike fear in their children. Furthermore, unless you can thoroughly convince the people, they will think that the police are trying to pry into their personal lives. They will feel that this is an invasion of their privacy. They will fear that they are being watched and policed.

Sometimes, NPP officers may find doors slammed in their faces because of the fear that the police are checking on unauthorized occupiers of HDB apartments or those who are playing mahjong. Or NPP officers may find little children keeping a lookout for their arrival to give advance warning to such residents. If this were to happen the bold step taken may falter.

The NPP officer has multiple roles to fulfil if he is to carry out the work as indicated by the scheme. He must be friend and counsellor, able to solve the problems of residents. To do this, he must be knowledgeable. He needs to be tactful, patient and understanding. If the main purpose is to gain the confidence of residents, he must be sensitive in his human relations. As all Members in this House know, it is easier said than done. It takes time to establish rapport with the residents. You have to earn their respect.

What the NPP officer does is no longer a job to be done perfunctorily. He has to have an abiding commitment to a cause. Since you are getting the NPP officer to come into such close contact with the people, the highest standard of integrity and moral behaviour is expected of him. If we are not careful, any misconduct on the part of NPP officers will not only jeopardize the whole scheme but also mar the image of the whole police force. This would have far-reaching consequences, especially if it should cause residents to harbour doubts, suspicion or even resent- ment against NPP officers. It may also undo what the MP has tried so hard to do, or alternatively, the MP will be left with the task of cleaning up the mess left behind.

My main question, Sir, is what are the plans that the Ministry has in preparing the ground for the introduction of this system? This system requires more than just a briefing session. Very good promotional programmes must be thought and carried out so as to ensure that the people are prepared to accept this system. Hence, I would like to ask the Minister what plans are there for a good promotional programme, what kind of PR work has been prepared?

Also, I would like to seek the Minister's assurance that the best officers - those with the highest standard of moral integrity and other qualities - be selected as pathfinders in this new scheme, and that they would not be transferred out before they are able to establish any durable relationships with the residents.

May I conclude by making two suggestions that the Minister may want to consider.

First, NPP officers should get to know the grassroots organizations well in order to gain their respect and acceptance. They should get involved in all CCC, MC and RC functions and make it a point to go on house visits with RCs for at least a full cycle before venturing out on their own. The purpose of this is to get to know the residents and be known by them. NPP officers should mesh in with such established organizations and not vie for attention, compete, run in conflict with them or pull in different directions. All must be seen to be working only for the good of the residents.

Second, it is essential that NPP officers are effective in fulfilling their roles and functions and that they be seen to be so.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, for the next financial year I notice that the Ministry of Home Affairs has provided for 27 posts in respect of Anti-Vice Enforcement and will spend about $587,370. First of all, Sir, I am sure this House will join me in congratulating the Ministry on its successful programme to root out vice in the Collyer Quay area. But, Sir, it is well-known to many people, especially to tourists, that the Orchard Road area which is the hotel belt is well-known as an area where there is a lot of prostitution, pimping and solicitation. It is also well-known that many taxi drivers and trishaw riders serve as pimps. I have friends who visited Singapore and who have complained to me that the moment they enter into a taxi from a hotel, they were asked whether they wanted certain services.

Sir, we are going to be vastly expanding our supply of hotel rooms in the next five years - an additional 18,000-plus rooms are going to be added to the existing 15,000-odd rooms. This will really tax the resources of the Ministry, particularly the Anti-Vice Enforcement Unit. Perhaps the Ministry should request for additional funds and additional personnel so that more stringent action can be taken against the people who are involved in this racket.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi: Sir, can I speak now so that I need not move Amendment No. (2)*? The subject is quite similar to what was raised.

The Chairman: Yes.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi: Sir, I welcome the Government's intention to introduce the koban system in Singapore - not because it is from Japan but because it is "human and civilising". Singaporeans are not motleys of warring tribes who need to be policed with an iron hand. For the majority, they are not ingrained to flout the laws of the country. On the contrary, they are law-abiding and, more importantly, many take upon themselves to look after their own children, to be amicable with their neighbours, and generally to help contribute towards the maintenance of law and order. No doubt, there will be those who will continue to break traffic laws, commit petty thefts, misdemeanours, or even the more serious crimes and also be patrons of Collyer Quay. Nonetheless, for the majority, there is the general interest to be civil and law-abiding in regard to their day-to-day lives in their respective residential neighbourhoods. 7.30 p.m.

At the same time, there is a general improvement of the economic well-being of Singaporeans and also their level of education which have the effect of increasing their sense of self-esteem and a feeling that they can look after themselves and their families. The net effect of all these is that they would see the Police Force as an institution that becomes necessary only when they are in trouble, which means that, under many other circumstances, the police becomes irrelevant to them. Thus, the police continues to take the traditional role of dissociating themselves except when some police problems crop up.

In this light, with koban system, the concept of police dissociation is changed. The policemen or police women are intended to be integral parts of whichever area or community they are deployed to. They are meant to be recognized as members of that community and to be so accepted. In other words, the policeman is to be a friend, a delightful member of the community. Such a concept will be most pleasing to the ordinary citizen and, to the police personnel, such a relationship will indeed be very reassuring.

Like all good concepts, they must be properly formulated, installed and executed. More importantly they will require the creation or preparation of the ground and climate so that the concept will bloom. It is in this regard that I would like to make some comments.

Firstly, I think it is useful if we inform and persuade parents and elders not to project to their respective children the image that the policeman is someone who conjures fear, penalty, punishment, and custody; that the police becomes relevant only when there is trouble; and such other threatening images of that institution. Instead, parents should help create and promote the positive, helpful and friendly image and roles of the police.

Secondly, with closer interactions and involvement of the police in the day-to-day happenings of the community at neighbourhood levels, I would anticipate that the police personnel would be placed, more frequently, in situations or happenings that are more civil in nature, e.g. quarrels between neighbours, minor interpersonal disturbances, and so on.

The problem is this. Our police tradition has been one where the police get themselves involved only when there is a criminal offence, or when there is a formal complaint made regarding civil matters. I do not know how, under the koban system, the police is expected to relate themselves to such non-criminal matters but, nonetheless, would require the help and mediation of someone who is now to be recognized as part of the community.

Thirdly, with closer interactions, there is also the greater need for the police to acquire and put into practice much finer sense of human relations. Having more frequent and closer contacts with the community would require the greater qualities of amicability, friendliness, rapport and enthusiasm in their work, and also about the life and happenings of the community.

I would like to know, and to join the former speaker in his appeal, if the Police Academy would give greater importance to its training schemes. If so, what are the programmes and policies?

Fourthly, I would also like to know if the Minister could comment on whether it is necessary to introduce the koban system at the school level, especially in regard to the programmes of the NPCC. If the concept can be introduced at that early age and if you can get them involved in the koban system, maybe at a later age, they will understand the concept and operation more deeply.

Finally, the CCC, MC, RC and other grassroots civic organizations together with the Members of Parliament, are established community institutiohs, and it is important for the police to have close rapport with these community leaders (of course, without subjecting themselves to be the lackeys or henchmen of MPs, as some quarters would be prone to allege.) I would like to know what programmes are in hand to help the police personnel, especially those on the ground, to understand the role and functions of these community institutions and to help them to work closely and effectively with the community workers. I am very confident that if they understand what are the types of community organizations - how they operate, who are the people involved - and if the police personnel could help develop close rapport with these institutions, I think the koban system will be a very important milestone in the development of the police system.

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): Sir, I have submitted an amendment under a separate subhead which deals specifically with the NPP system. So can I speak now?

Mr Chua Sian Chin: Sir, I must have some time to reply. Can I reply now?

The Chairman: Yes.

The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Chua Sian Chin): Sir, I wish to thank both the Member for Boon Teck and the Member for KamponSS Kembangan for their kind words with regard to the introduction of the Neighbourhood Police Post system which we propose to launch in June this year at the Toa Payoh Police Division. I am also obliged to them for their comments and remarks as to the importance of how the police should go about introducing this new system to ensure success. I have taken note of their comments and perhaps I can give them the assurance that many of their comments have already been considered by the police very carefully and not only will measures be taken to ensure the success of the implementation, but measures have already been taken in advance.

As the Member for Boon Teck has stated, the introduction of the Neighbourhood Police Post system or, in short, the NPP system, is, in fact, a radical change in the doctrine and system of policing. One of the special features of this new NPP system is the home visits. Why are the home visits necessary, as they do in Japan? It is not possible to cultivate deep and abiding friendly relationship with the residents unless you visit every resident within the neighbourhood and, not only visit them just as a matter of courtesy but to visit them with a view to getting to know them, and, not only just to get to know them but to listen to their problems so that they will have a better view of what are the problems in the neighbourhood. It is not only to get a better view of the problems of the neighbourhood but also to get a good feedback of what the police have been doing, whether the measures that they have been taking are going down well with the residents or they are not, whether they are beneficial or they are not.

With this type of interaction, it is inevitable that not only a relationship between friends will develop but there will also be a relationship of trust and confidence. It is also right for the Member for Boon Teck and the Member for Kampong Kembangan to say that this can only be done if the police officers who are deployed at the various Neighbourhood Police Posts must be people who have the aptitude to build up this rapport and good relationship. In fact, that was a point which we considered long before we announced the launching of this system. In fact, late last year when we had already planned to launch the system at the Toa Payoh Police Division, we not only specially selected officers with this aptitude but trained them on how to go about cultivating this relationship with the residents. These officers who will be deployed in the Toa Payoh Police Division, that is, in the eight constituencies within that Division, have already started their training since the beginning of this year. Their training is not just to listen to lectures. It is not a theoretical approach. It is an approach of role-playing. In other words, we simulate real life situations and these trainees take part in simulated role-playing. This is the type of training which the Japanese used when they trained their police officers for their koban system. We have with us two Japanese police experts to guide the instructors in the Police Academy as to how this should be done. 7.45 p.m.

Therefore, Members can rest assured that this has been done quite meticulously to prepare the police officers who will be deployed, because we know that any ill-trained officer who is deployed can cause a setback to what we propose to do. Particularly, they have been taught how to approach residents, how to address them, how not to appear as a busybody. And when they knock at the door and if they are met with a certain situation, they should know how to handle it. They are not to force their way in.

We have also taken care that in order to smoothen the introduction of these Neighbourhood police officers, we have been in contact with the various grassroots organizations and leaders in the Constituencies in the Toa Payoh Police Division where we are going to launch this scheme. We have obtained their consent to help us. So the proposal made by the Member for Boon Teck that they should be introduced particularly by members of the Residents' Committees, has already been thought of and will be implemented. In fact, they will not go by themselves. It stands to reason that when they are accompanied by members of the Residents' Committees who will know when to make the visits, and to which block, I am quite sure that the exercise will be a smooth one.

The other very important point is this. It is important that when they approach the residents, they should not do it in such a way as to cause misunderstanding or mis- conception, as it has been put that whenever a policeman knocks at a home, it could either mean a tragedy for example, one of the members of the family could have been knocked down in a car accident; or it could be to make an arrest. So in order to avoid such a misconception, we have made sure that when they visit the residents, they will not do so in an isolated way. If they do a block visit, that means the whole block will be visited and not just selected flats. If the whole block is visited, I do not think it can cause any misconception.

We have also made sure that there will be full publicity. In order words, before they go on a visit, they will fully publicize that they are going to visit the particular block on what day and for what purpose. If that is done, I do not see any misconceptions will arise.

Of course, they must display tact and, at the same time, be very discreet in handling whatever information they are given by the residents. They have to make it quite clear that when they ask for information such as the place of work, they must explain why. They should not ask for information just for the sake of asking. One important information why it is necessary for them to have and to ask when they do these house visits is where can the head of the household be contacted? For example, in the event of an emergency, such as there has been a fire in the flat, this information becomes a necessary piece of information. But whatever information that is given to them will be purely voluntary. In other words, the residents are not obliged to give any information. But whatever information is given will be for the mutual advantage of both the residents and the police officer in the discharge of his duty. And whatever information that is given will be held in strict confidence.

There is one point that was brought up both by the Members for Boon Teck and Kampong Kembangan. The point they made is that before we start this system, the police officers must have been familiar with the relationship of the Police with that of the grassroots organizations. In other words, that they are in a position to liaise with grassroots leaders without difficulty. In fact, this has already been launched years ago. As Members will know, although it is not on a Constituency basis but it is only on a police divisional basis, police officers attend most CCC and RC meetings, In fact, the link is always there or has been built up. As a result of this link, there has been close liaison.

When we launched the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme some two years ago, we had no difficulty in getting RCs to get together to launch the scheme in their respective zones and Constituencies. In fact, it is gratifying to note that to date in

69 Constituencies where we have RCs, the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme has been launched in all the 69 Constituencies, and we are now in the second stage of expanding the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme to cover the rest of the blocks which have still not formed neighbourhood watch groups.

One interesting point made by both the Members is that because of the unthinking practice of some mothers, when they chide their child, they always threaten to call the police and arrest the child if he continues to misbehave. That has been in-grained in quite a number of the members of the public and, as a result, the policeman is regarded as someone who is out to arrest you and not someone who is of service to the public. For our new generation, we decided that we should correct such an image of the police. So we thought of a scheme of boys' clubs, and we have to date formed four boys' clubs in four Constituencies, not only to serve that particular Constituency but also to serve a wider neighbourhood. From the experience of the boys' clubs, we found that the boys between the ages of 12 and 18 no longer regard the policeman as a person who arrests people but as a friend. As I have announced, we will be forming four more boys' clubs.

The Member for Kampong Kembangan raised a point which is a valid one - that under the present practice, the police will only investigate and make arrests on seizable offences. But as far as non-seizable offences like quarrels, assaults, minor assaults, minor mischief and so on are concerned, the police will not take action. That is the law. The Member's point is that with the Neighbourhood Police Post system, will such a situation still continue because when there is close rapport with the residents, inevitably when there are quarrels between neighbours or in the case of assault and so on, they will approach the police. The answer to this is quite simple. 8.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of Interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Chua Sian Chin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1983 to 31st March, 1984, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.