HAWKER CENTRES

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon asked the Minister for the Environment if his Ministry will consider building more hawker centres to enable those with insufficient capital to start their own business or who have difficulty in getting jobs due to the present economic recession to earn a living as hawkers.

The Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Environment (Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng) (for the Minister for the Environment): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am replying on behalf of my Minister.

The Government started building hawker centres in 1971 for the specific purpose of relocating about 18,000 street hawkers. Hawker licences were also issued to those in financial hardship under the hardship scheme. The programme of resiting street hawkers has largely been completed. Having achieved the social and environmental objectives of providing proper hawker centres for the itinerant street hawkers to operate from, the Government has decided not to build any more hawker centres and to let the private sector cater for such business in future.

I wish to remind hon. Members that having a stall in a hawker centre is not an assured means of livelihood as the competition for consumers today has become very keen. In today's context, hawkers operating in hawker centres require business acumen and culinary skills. Those in financial hardship are aware of the risk involved and many do not take up stalls even if they are allocated stalls after having satisfied the means test. For example, over the last five years, only 162 of the 922 cases who qualified or 18% took up stalls. Of the 162 who took up stalls, subsequently 40, or 25%, gave up their stalls within a few months.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok (Delta): Sir, could the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House the number of itinerant hawkers at present? My second question is: will the Hawkers Department consider raising the upper age limit of 60 so that those who are above 60 and are still healthy but jobless can still apply for a hawker licence?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: I do not have the exact figures of itinerant hawkers with me, but there are very, very few left. Most of them have been resited in hawker centres and markets and sundry stalls.

With regard to the age limit, the proposal is an interesting one. But the important thing really is how fit the person is medically. So if the Member for Delta has any case where he feels that a person of 60 years or more wishes to apply for a hawker licence, we will consider him if he can pass the medical test.

Mr Yeo Choo Kok: Sir, in his answer just now, he said that hardship is the only criterion for applying for a hawker licence. Will the Senior Parliamentary Secretary consider, in addition to hardship case, culinary skills to be another criterion for applying for a hawker licence?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: I think that is a very good idea. Culinary skills are, in fact, a more important criterion than hardship because, more often than not, you find that among those hardship cases who are given licences, most do not make it a success but some do. Sometimes giving them a licence is to do them more harm than good. So if a person has the culinary skill, I think it is worthwhile considering. In fact, now that we have completed our programme of resiting street hawkers into proper hawker centres, it may be about time to reconsider the criteria for issue of hawker licences. That will take some time though.

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan (Whampoa): Mr Speaker, Sir, of the 922 cases, most of whom rejected the stalls offered to them, to what extent was location a factor? We know very well that certain hawker centres are popular. The applicants too know this very well. And very often the vacant stalls that are offered are those in locations which are very unfavourable for business.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, again I do not have the exact figures with me so I cannot tell him how many of the 922 cases were rejected because of location. But I think the Member has a point there. We all have the impression that the success of a hawker depends on either the location of the hawker centre or location from his own house. I presume the Member for Whampoa is talking about the location of the hawker centre in respect of clientele. Am I correct? Or location from home?

Dr Augustine Tan: Clientele.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: On clientele. I have been told, Mr Speaker, Sir, that there are hawker centres in Tuas, Punggol Point, even in one of the islands, Pulau Ubin, if I am not mistaken, where Singaporeans flock to for their food. That brings up the point of the Member for Delta where culinary skills do indeed play a part in attracting clientele to the hawker centres, and not totally dependant on location.

Mr Lim Boon Heng (Kebun Baru): Sir, can the Senior Parliamentary Secretary tell us what is the rate of hawkers who give up their stalls for all hawkers, rather than just for the new cases that were granted? Could he give us an approximate figure or percentage of those who are giving up their trade as hawkers?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: If the Member for Kebun Baru could frame another question for Oral Answer, I would be too willing to give it to him.

Mr Bernard Chen (Clementi): Mr Speaker, Sir, could the Hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary inform the House that among those who rejected the allocation of stalls, what is the proportion of cooked food stalls to market produce stalls? As I understand it, most of the rejections were for the market produce stalls, while cooked food stalls seem to draw quite a high percentage of acceptance.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Maybe when the Member for Kebun Baru frames his question, we can consider this question together. But off hand, if I can say so, I think the Member for Clementi is correct in saying that there are more people who reject market produce stalls than for cooked food stalls.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, would the Hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary consider upgrading existing hawker centres so that business can be improved, for example, the addition of suitable car parking facilities? Secondly, Sir, in the event that any hawker centre is to be demolished, an alternative of a more suitable site should be provided, such as a site close by or nearby in order to safeguard the livelihood of the stallholders?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, am I to presume that all hawker centres have the same date of relocation? I do not think so. I presume the Member is referring to his own hawker centre.

Dr Augustine Tan: I do have in mind one hawker centre at Jalan Tenteram in my constituency. But this question is of interest to more than just Jalan Tenteram Hawker Centre.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will ask my officers to look into this idea or opinion, and we will deal with it accordingly.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, my question is: what does the Hon. Parliamentary Secretary think of my idea? I am not interested in what his officials think.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, when I get the details of the report from my officers, I will give him my opinion.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, does the Senior Hon. Parliamentary Secretary not agree with me that the principle of the matter is clear enough for anybody to see and that he can commit himself if he wants to?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not know what principle we are talking here. But the important thing is yes, I agree that generally there should be a car park somewhere near a hawker centre. There should be easy access to the hawker centre. But without the details of his question, it is very difficult for me to agree with a general statement of that sort.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, would he agree with me that relocation will cause considerable hardship to hawkers who have to be dispersed, relocated in different locations far away from their homes when they already have a comfortable means of livelihood close by so that, when their existing stalls are demolished, it would be in their interest to have an alternative source of livelihood close by their homes?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: I presume it is also in the interest of the Member for Whampoa to have these hawkers relocated in his own constituency rather than, for example, move out of their homes. But there is a provision whereby if a hawker moves home and his hawker stall is too far away for him to commute, then he can always ask if we could help, and we do help.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, would the Hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary answer my question specifically, namely, that if an existing hawker centre is to be demolished, provision should be made to allow for another hawker centre to be established?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: I think that would come under the province of the Ministry of National Development because they are the ones who do the town planning.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, would the Hon. Senior Parliamentary Secretary support, in principle, what I am advocating here, so that we can push the idea with the Ministry for National Development?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: It is a good idea. I will support you.

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I have two supplementary questions for the Parliamentary Secretary. First, is he in a position to tell us what is the vacancy rate, that is, the percentage of stalls that are vacant in food hawker centres? Secondly, has his Ministry stopped issuing licences for itinerant hawkers? If so, will the Ministry consider issuing licences for itinerant hawkers in at least some special cases?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Mr Speaker, Sir, first question on the vacancy rate. I do not have the exact figures but the vacancy rate can range from, say, 4% in a rather healthy market - when I say "healthy", I mean the amount of business - to about 30% in a rather sluggish one. On the other question, yes, we have stopped issuing licences for itinerant hawkers. By "itinerant", do you mean moving from place to place?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: I cannot think of any special case where we can give licences to itinerant hawkers.

Mr Philip Tan Tee Yong (Paya Lebar): Sir, will the Senior Parliamentary Secretary consider licences for itinerant hawkers using vans if environment measures can be controlled?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: I think there are some delivery vans that bring provisions to homes. Is that what you mean?

Mr Philip Tan Tee Yong: That is not what I meant. What I meant was: will you consider allowing people to do itinerant hawking by using vans if environment measures can be controlled?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: That is a very general proposition. But I do not really know what the Member means when he says "environmental problems can be controlled." I say that, in general, we discourage street hawking in any form, whether it be in a van, on a bicycle or on two legs.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, does the Senior Parliamentary Secretary recognize that if a person takes, for example, dry goods in a van and moves around from estate to estate, there is really no problem as regards pollution or environmental health?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: If pollution and environmental health hazards are the only problems we are worried about, so be it. But there are problems more than just pollution.

Mr Jeyaretnam: What are they?

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Traffic congestion, for instance. Basically, if you are talking about a goods delivery van, we do not control those operators. But if the operator of the van carries goods and stops here and there to sell his goods, then we have to control them.