CHILD CARE CENTRES (Adequacy)

Dr S. Vasoo asked the Minister for Community Development (a) whether there will be adequate child care centres in the near future to cater to the needs of working mothers affected by the recent increase in foreign maids levy; and (b) what are his Ministry's plans to encourage the establishment of more child care centres.

The Minister for Community Development (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, my Ministry has been stepping up its child care programme since 1984. At the end of FY 84, there were 61 child care centres providing 3,841 places. Over the period FY 85 to FY 87, the number of centres and places more than doubled to 127 and 7,887 places respectively. In FY 88 up to now, a total of 46 more child care centres were set up. Another six child care centres are likely to be operational within the next two months. In FY 88, therefore, there will be an increase of 52 child care centres and 2,534 places over the period of FY 87. This is more than double the number of centres that my Ministry had previously targetted for development annually, ie, 15-20 centres a year.

Sir, it is not possible to determine exactly the extent of the increased demand for child care places resulting from the recent increase in the foreign maids levy. However, my Ministry is taking action to encourage the development of even more child care centres and other child care facilities.

My Ministry is working with the Ministry of National Development to develop a scheme to enable private ntrepreneurs to use HDB premises for the development of child care centres. Currently, the development of child care centres in HDB estates is only by voluntary organizations. If more centres are to be built within HDB estates, private operators will have to be attracted to set up centres there.

Training for child care centre personnel has also been stepped up. Besides increasing the intake for child care courses conducted by the Institute of Education, the Ministry has also accredited two other organizations as training agencies. The two organizations are the NTUC and the Kinderland Learning Centre. Since 1985, more than 800 persons have received training at the Basic and Intermediate levels in child care. Currently, another 400 are undergoing training at the various levels and another 300 will be trained before the end of the year.

We are also encouraging private entrepreneurs and voluntary organizations to provide family day care services to meet the needs of parents who prefer such services so as to make family day care more widely available to parents.

While we do all we can to increase the number of child care places, the setting up of a large number of child care centres cannot take place overnight. Several factors dictate the pace of increase of child care centres.

Firstly, there is a temporary problem of time lag between the movement of people into a new town and the opening of a child care centre. I know many MPs have brought up this problem to me regarding the lack of child care places in HDB new towns. This temporary problem has arisen because child care operators are reluctant to open new centres until residents have moved in and there is an indication of demand.

Secondly, a more serious problem is the shortage of manpower. Many advertisements for child care personnel have gone unanswered because our young girls are not attracted to work in child care centres. Competition is keen for girls with GCE 'O' level qualifications. The answer may have to lie in more attractive salaries and better schemes of service. My Ministry will discuss with child care operators about how to make this scheme of service more attractive.

Dr Aline K. Wong (Tampines GRC): Sir, will the Minister discuss with the Minister for Labour and together try to persuade the Minister for Finance to release the revenue collected from the foreign maids levy and target it specifically for building more child care centres and the training of child care staff?

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, presently, there are adequate subsidies and adequate capital grants for private operators and even the NTUC, the PA and other operators who want to build child care centres. I believe the current level of subsidies is adequate.

Dr Arthur Beng Kian Lam (Fengshan): Sir, will the Minister also try to convince the Minister for Labour to allow foreign maids to be used for the setting up of child care centres, as a temporary measure, so that the programme will not be hindered because of the shortage of manpower?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, I think this question should really be directed at the Minister for Labour. I think we must be careful about introducing foreign maids into child care centres. We want our children to grow up as Singaporeans, identified with Singaporean values and things that we would like to do best and we want to propagate and to inculcate these in our children. I do not think that it is appropriate to have foreign maids running our child care centres.

Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon (Yuhua): Sir, will the Ministry of Community Development legislate workplace child care centres?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, I heard the Member the other day when she recommended that the Government should force employers through legislation to operate child care centres in their workplaces. I think this idea, while laudable, is not entirely practicable. I have been on the other side before working in an organization and I know the difficulties of setting up child care centres. Just to take an example. Supposing an employer has 1,000 female workers and, say, only 50% or even 30% of them need such facilities for their children, which means that the employer would have to provide something like 500 places or 300 places for the children of these employees. Where would the employer find the resources and the expertise to operate such child care centres? Moreover, I do not think it is the right thing to legislate on this matter. We should leave it to the free play of market forces to determine where child care centres should appropriately be sited. From experience, we know that mothers do not like to place their children in workplace child care centres. They prefer to have their children in centres which are nearer their homes so that before they go to work, they can drop the children in the child care centre and when they come back they can pick up the children, rather than to bring the children on the bus or other means of public transport to the workplace and deposit the children there. Right now, there are 15 employer-operated child care centres and I think the enrolment rate is just about 75-80%.

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan (Whampoa): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister stated that it is undesirable to employ foreigners to run child care centres because they affect the values of our children. Is it not also true that by having foreign maids in our homes that they too directly impact upon the values of our children?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: That could be true also, Mr Speaker, Sir, except that in the home environment, the employer, who is the parent of the child, will have a more direct influence on the child. Therefore, there is direct supervision between the employer and the foreign maid to ensure that such foreign values do not get transmitted to the child. And if there is, immediate corrective action can be taken. That is a very different situation from that of foreign maids working in child care centres.

Dr Augustine Tan: Is the Minister aware that many parents leave the house before the children are up and come back after the children have gone to bed? And therefore the maid is dominant in terms of influencing values of the children.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, I am a parent too and therefore I am aware that sometimes when I go to work my children may still be sleeping. While that may be the case, it is really up to the parents themselves to make sure that the foreign maids do not dominate the household. As far as I know, children know who to look up to. They do not look up to the foreign maids for guidance. They look up to the parents for guidance.

Dr Augustine Tan: Has the Minister made a survey to find out how many of our children already have Filipino accents?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, it is not my job to find out how many of them have Filipino accents.

Dr Tan Cheng Bock (Ayer Rajah): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Tampines GRC has raised a very important point. In fact, I am not satisfied with the Minister's answer. I think he should look into ---

Mr Speaker: Dr Tan, can you ask your question?

Dr Tan Cheng Bock: I am sorry, Sir. Will the Minister look into the request made by the Member for Tampines GRC and not just brush it aside and say that the present subsidies are adequate?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, all questions raised in this House are always considered. And even if I give an answer, I keep thinking about whether the right answer has been given. So be assured that when Members raise a question and when they receive an answer from me and even when I consider that adequate, it still occupies my mind. And at the right time and if it is necessary, we will consider all the suggestions that they put up.

Dr Dixie Tan (Ulu Pandan): Sir, would the Minister agree that, especially in the instance of staffing of child care centres, mature women might actually have an advantage over the young ladies that he claims to have been seeking and not finding? Would he not agree that this would be a good outlet, one of the few available to mature women seeking jobs after they have laid off work to look after their own families?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, the Member may have got the impression that we are only looking for young girls in my answer. In the advertisement or in the recruitment of staff, I do not think it is stated clearly that only young girls are preferred. Anyone who is interested in working at a child care centre will be considered.

Mr Goh Chee Wee (Boon Lay): Sir, in spite of the increase in the number of child care places in recent years, is the Minister aware that very few child care centres are taking in children below 2 years old? And what is the Ministry going to do about that?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, we know that there are not many child care centres taking children under 2 years old. This is because of the higher cost of operation. I know for a fact that the NTUC has operated a number of these centres and they have decided to slowly wind down some of them because of the high cost.

As to what we can do about that, we again have to leave it to the free enterprise. We have to leave it to the individual parent to decide whether to place the child there. As far as the Government is concerned, there is no discrimination in regard to whether a child is above 2 or below 2 years old. The subsidy is still $100.

Dr Arthur Beng Kian Lam (Fengshan): Sir, now that the Minister recognizes the fact that infant care is more costly, would it not be good logic to increase the subsidy for infant care?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: I do not think so, Sir.

Mr Loh Meng See (Kampong Glam): Sir, the Minister said that consideration for the setting up of child care centres is for the newer estates. What about old constituen- cies like Kampong Glam where we wish to encourage the grandchildren to be looked after by the grandparents in such places? And because of the centrality of the constituency, should not equal consideration be given to established estates for child care centres?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, child care centres are established where there is a demand and we do not discriminate between old and new estates. If the Member feels that there is a need for a child care centre in Kampong Glam, please by all means set it up.

Dr Arthur Beng Kian Lam: May I ask the Minister for his reasons?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: I do not agree with his logic.

Mr Chng Hee Kok: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not happy with the Minister's reply to the Member for Fengshan. On the one hand he says that the subsidies are sufficient for running child care centres ---

Mr Speaker: Mr Chng, can you ask your question.

Mr Chng Hee Kok: --- and immediately after that he talks about the high cost of infant care. This implies that the subsidy is not sufficient. So how can that be the case?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, the Government has decided to give a subsidy of $100 for each child. That is the level of subsidy that we think we should give to the child. Child care centres may run a higher cost in providing places for children who are under two years old. Parents may have many alternatives of putting a child in a child care centre. They can leave the child at home to be looked after by a maid, or get a parent or other relatives to look after the child. And there are other forms of care arrangement. The options are there for the parents. If they decide to put the child in a child care centre and if the cost is $350, the parents will have to decide whether this is a viable option.

Dr Koh Lam Son (Telok Blangah): I would like to ask the Minister whether his Ministry makes a regular check on all child care centres to ensure there is a high standard of hygiene because I understand that the infection rate of children going to child care centres is higher than children staying at home.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, we do make regular checks but I am not aware that the infection rate of children in child care centre is higher. But sometimes it may be possible that because children get together in groups and when one child gets infected it is easy to transmit their infection or whatever problems they have to the other children. But we pay very close attention to such problems. If we know that such a problem exists, immediate action will be taken to isolate the child or bring the child home.

Dr S. Vasoo: Is the Minister aware that the incentives given to start up child care centre is meagre and would he propose a more attractive package to enable others to initiate the services?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, many centres have been set up over the last four years. If it is meagre, as he has mentioned, then there will not be that number of child care centres being set up.