MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1990 TO 31ST MARCH, 1991

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head T (cont.) -

Resumption of Debate on Question [14th March, 1990],

"That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TC 1500 of the Main Estimates." - [Dr Koh Lip Lin].

Question again proposed.

Dr Wang Kai Yuen (Bukit Timah): Sir, I was proposing a simple and yet cheap solution to the inefficient operation of the traffic light junctions when Parliament adjourned yesterday. As a matter of fact, I have brought this matter up previously in this House. At that time, the Minister replied that we must be mindful of the cost incurred and that was the end of it.

However, the road improvement programme proposed by the Prime Minister and the First Deputy Prime Minister as well as the master plan called for by my colleagues, such as underground road network, road widening, grade level separation, such as viaducts, tunnels and underpasses, would have cost in excess of S$1 billion. Sir, my proposal is much more modest than that. It involves burying vehicle detector loops at road junctions so that only when a vehicle is waiting to merge with the traffic would the traffic light be tripped into operation, that is to say, changing from red to green. Otherwise, the major through traffic will not be disrupted. This could also be applied to right turn green arrow at traffic junctions. Such simple devices cannot be very expensive to install. In fact, vehicle loop detectors are already in place at all the traffic light camera junctions. Anyone who has been caught jumping the traffic light at such junctions knows how effective those detectors are.

Sir, as it is, our traffic management system is a bit archaic. I would urge the Minister to consider the simple proposals I have recommended and implement them together with the master plan, where applicable, so that our road management system could be brought up to the 21st century as befitting Singapore's image as a sophisticated city.

Mr Chin Harn Tong (Aljunied GRC): Sir, being caught in a traffic jam can be frustrating, but when caught in a traffic jam due to sudden constriction of road space through road works or repairs can be even more frustrating. Many a time you can see contractors parking their limousines in the enclosure where road works or repairs are being carried out. Or you may find yourself in a lane which is abruptly blocked just before the road works, thus making it difficult for you to edge into the other lanes when, in fact, warning road signs could have been placed some distance away from the actual road works or repairs so as to funnel the traffic into other lanes.

Sir, unfortunately, road works are also carried out by Telecoms, PUB and the Drainage Department. Although the main blame for traffic congestion caused by road works or repairs should be on the PWD, since roads are under its realm, I do not think it is fair to blame the PWD solely for these repairs. Sir, I accept there are practical limits to what the PWD can do by way of coordinating and setting guidelines for road works or repairs with a view to minimising inconvenience to the motorists. Guidelines for repairing road works to be done at night or over the weekend or during off-peak hours have to be balanced against higher operating costs. At the same time, it must not be forgotten that motorists who are caught in a traffic jam would also have to pay for it in terms of the precious time lost and the inconvenience suffered.

Recently, the Minister for Communications and Information pointed out that a surcharge will be imposed on cars over 10 years old because these older cars are more likely to break down on the roads, thereby causing traffic jams. Since the Ministry and, presumably, the PWD are aware of the financial and social costs of traffic jams, it is shocking that the PWD has not come up with a long-term practical solution. For example, the PWD could have considered siting drainage channels, cables and pipes in small underground tunnels parallel to or under the streets. The capital cost for constructing such tunnels would be undoubtedly heavy; but against it must be balanced the savings by way of roadways being repeatedly dug up and refilled and resurfaced and the consequent traffic jams caused by these road works.

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Sir, first, let me declare my interest because the topic that I am talking about involves my workplace which is within my constituency.

Sir, the season parking charge for an uncovered parking lot at Car Park B and other car parks within the vicinity of Changi Airport, besides Car Park A, is $75. This is $25 higher than the parking charges of $50 for an uncovered lot elsewhere in Singapore.

A few years ago, the monthly parking charges were $65. I raised the matter in this House for a reduction of the charges. The former Minister for National Development, maybe in consultation with the Ministry of Communications and Information, kindly reduced the charges to $50. Last year, the charges went up to $75.

Sir, I would like to appeal to the Minister to eliminate the present disparity and bring the parking charges at Changi Airport in line with the parking charges which are being implemented in other parts of Singapore. Car Park B at the moment is not fully utilised.

Sir, I have the following reasons to justify my appeal. Changi Airport is not within the central business district. Consequently, the vehicles of airport workers do not contribute to any traffic congestion to the roadways leading to the business district. Neither do they contribute to the pollution problem in the city during the peak hours. In fact, the routes to Changi Airport are not congested with vehicles. Therefore, there should not be any discouraging policy to deter the airport workers to drive to work. Most airport workers are shift workers whose duty hours are governed by the airline flight schedules. As such, they do not fully enjoy the benefits of the public transport system. As most airport workers who drive to work daily stay far away from their workplace, they have to rely heavily on their own transport to travel to work.

Presently, those living in the HDB estates are already paying $50 for their season car parks in their estate. With the additional $75 they have to pay for the parking charges at Changi Airport, the total monthly parking charges incurred by each airport worker will be $125. Sir, it is very, very expensive.

With Changi Airport being voted the Best Airport for two consecutive years, another form of recognition for the airport workers for their contribution and dedication is to reduce the car park charges at Changi Airport. I hope the Minister will be generous in this respect.

Dr Low Seow Chay (Chua Chu Kang): Sir, there were reports in the local press about the possibility of building a second causeway linking Singapore and Johor. I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister when and where the causeway will be built. It seems that the private sector will be involved in funding the construction of this project. May I also ask whether a toll charge will be collected and who will benefit from the collection of the toll charge.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh (Non-Constituency Member): Sir, Government has increased the parking charges again and again on the slightest excuse and car owners of HDB estates have complained very much about the charges raised by Government. Has Government any intention to reduce some of the charges? If so, it might as well inform the House right now.

Another thing which I want to raise is that the Annual Report of the Housing and Development Board the financial statement of 1988-89 shows that the revenue of parking charges comes to more than $100 million a year. But I also see that the total expenditure is $108 million, making a deficit for the car parks activity section. What I would like to know, Sir, is what sort of interest has been paid; and to whom. What loans have been given to the Car Park Division, earmarked for the Car Park Division, and by whom? What sort of depreciation can there be? Can car parks depreciate? And what are "other expenses" that are there? Other expenses come to $9-odd million. No details are given.

I wonder whether the Minister will be able to enlighten the House on all this. As we know, statistics can lie. According to some Members in the House, certain people keep three sets of books. I do not know whether the HDB also adopts the same system. We should be informed as to how the car parks have incurred a loss, according to the books. But as far as we know, it has made a lot of money.

The Minister for National Development (Mr S Dhanabalan): Sir, Mr Ng Pock Too, Dr Koh and Dr Wang have raised very briefly a number of very important points regarding the overall plan and programme for road development, and I thought I should take this opportunity to inform the House on the overall thinking of the Ministry and the plans for improving the road network to increase traffic capacity.

The first point I would like to make is that it is not true and quite unfair to say that PWD's plan is just merely a plan to increase the length of roads in Singapore without any overall concept of how to go about tackling the traffic problem. Roads are not just built for the purpose of building roads. In fact, very few roads are built merely to open up areas which are presently unpopulated. All roads built are to make it easier and more efficient for people living in population centres to go about doing their economic and social activities. It is not true to say that no thought or overall plan is behind the PWD's road building programme.

When the First Deputy Prime Minister met community leaders in a dialogue session early this month, he explained our transportation policy and he briefly mentioned how the Government is planning to increase the capacity of our roads by improving and expanding the road network. I would like to take the opportunity now to give an overview of the Ministry's plans for development of roads and its plans to make public transportation more attractive.

MND will, first, increase the capacity of our roads. I will elaborate on this in a moment. Secondly, it will make greater use of computerised traffic control systems - something that I think is very dear to the heart of Dr Wang. Thirdly, it will provide more facilities to make public transportation more attractive. And lastly, it will lay the foundation for an effective transportation system as early as possible in new areas like Marina South and Marina East.

Let me first deal with the subject of increasing the capacity of roads. To increase the capacity of our roads within the constraints of limited land, the Government has already approved an expenditure of $1.1 billion under the current PWD's Five-Year Road Development Programme. Some of the major projects in the programme include the widening of the PIE between Kallang Bahru and Bukit Timah Expressway which includes the expansion of the PIE/Central Expressway interchange and the Woodsville Flyover. I think Members must be aware that this part of the PIE is a major bottleneck and traffic does build up at the peak hours in both directions. This improvement will remove a major bottleneck along the PIE.

The PWD will also re-align and extend the PIE toward Tuas which is the western end of the PIE. Construction of the Kranji Expressway will begin next month.

Where land is available, existing roads will be widened. For example, Victoria Street will be widened to accommodate eight lanes. By using the land above the MRT tunnels for the additional lanes, we are able to expand the traffic capacity into our city without using more land.

To overcome the constraints of limited land, we will have to build more underground roads, especially to carry through-traffic. We have made a start with the two tunnels for the Central Expressway. They will be ready by the end of 1991. The CTE will enable residents in Ang Mo Kio and Serangoon to have direct access to the city as well as to the Ayer Rajah Expressway.

The Public Works Department has also completed a preliminary study to identify where other underground roads can be built. One tunnel could link Bendemeer Road and Balestier Road to Marina Centre so that motorists can bypass the heavy traffic in Jalan Besar, Bencoolen Street, Lavender Street and Crawford Street. Another tunnel could pass under Bras Basah Road and Stamford Road to provide motorists with direct access to Marina Centre from Orchard Road and Selegie Road.

Shorter stretches of tunnels, or "Depressed Junctions", are also being considered at critical junctions in the city area. This could alleviate the bottlenecks that currently exist at the junctions adjoining Orchard Road and Bras Basah Road.

Outside the city, we will consider building more viaducts over existing roads to carry the through-traffic leaving surface roads for local traffic. A viaduct above the intersection at Bukit Timah Road, Rochore Road and Ophir Road to carry through-traffic to Nicoll Highway and the ECP is being considered.

Not all roads can be upgraded to expressway standards, but by building a series of flyovers and tunnels to ease traffic congestion at critical junctions the PWD will create a new category of roads called "semi-expressway". An example of a "semi-expressway" is the Bukit Timah/Dunearn Road pair. We can upgrade, for example, Telok Blangah Road and Pasir Panjang Road to a "semi-expressway", linking East Coast Parkway and West Coast Highway.

In PWD's Five-Year Programme, a total of 13 interchanges and flyovers will be built.

All the above projects will be part of PWD's Five-Year Road Development Programme. This Plan is developed as a rolling plan so that there is a yearly review of PWD's proposals for the ensuing five years. The Government will continue to improve our road network under this Plan.

Secondly, I come to the greater use of computerised traffic control systems. At present, 190 traffic and pedestrian signals in the city area are controlled by a computerised system. This system monitors traffic conditions at the junctions and determines the appropriate signalling cycles for each traffic light. The commissioning of this system in 1988 has resulted in a significant increase in travel speed in the city. The PWD is extending the system to the Telok Blangah/Alexandra Road and Jurong area. Eventually, the whole island will be covered by the system.

While on this point, I think it is an appropriate juncture for me to answer Dr Wang about the use of vehicle loop detectors. This has already been done at many junctions. And, of course, as many junctions as possible will be provided with this facility. But one must differentiate the junction between a very minor road where there is occasional traffic and a major road and the junction between two roads, both carrying more or less continuous traffic but different volumes at different times. The latter case is where the computerised system comes in useful, because we can measure the traffic flow and adjust the timing of the signals. Sometimes drivers feel that they are waiting longer than they should, because the minimum time allowed under even the computerised system has to take into account pedestrian crossing time. It is for this reason that sometimes there is the perception that the light is against the flow of traffic for longer than it should be. We cannot make people walk or run as fast as cars, and we have to allow them time to cross the very wide roads that we are building.

The third point is providing facilities to make public transportation more attractive. Last year, we announced the Walkways Programme which will cost an estimated $250 million over the next 10 years. This is meant to be an integral part of the public transportation system. It is intended to make public transportation attractive. If public transport is to work, people must be prepared to walk. There is no way that public transport can bring you door to door. But we can do something to make the walking pleasant - the walking from the bus-stops or MRT stations to the final destinations.

To specifically encourage MRT ridership, MND has examined, together with the Ministry of Communications and Information as well as the MRT Corporation, the provision of public facilities around MRT stations comprising shaded pedestrian linkages and crossings, bus-stops, vehicle pick-up points and even bicycle stands.

There have been requests for bicycle stands near the MRT stations because bicycles could be used for short trips between the residence and the MRT station. They are handy and practical. They are also energy efficient. As a pilot project, the PWD will be constructing bicycle stands near Yishun, Buona Vista, Lakeside and Tiong Bahru MRT stations.

To assess the popularity of the "park and ride" scheme, MND is currently looking into whole day parking facilities at existing or new public car parks near MRT stations. These car parks are likely to be located near private residential estates which are far from the city.

I would like next to deal with the laying of the foundation for a traffic infrastructure in the new areas. In the development of new areas like the Marina South and Marina East, we will plan for the land transportation infrastructure right from the start.

When the French developed their new commercial hub, La Defense in Paris, they integrated their transportation networks by building them at different levels. Commuters can enter the new city using regional trains and the metro, which is the equivalent of our MRT. Above the stations, there are bus interchanges and taxi services. People arriving by car make use of expressways that are linked to underground car parks. To minimise disruption, there is a network of service trenches for the laying of electricity, water, telecommunications and other services.

Our planners and transportation engineers will study this approach and examine how it can be adapted to our environment. Not everything that they do there can in fact be applied here. In fact, when I was there last year, quite a few French residents in Paris expressed great fear about going to La Defense area because they say it is quite a maze, where they can get lost, and probably be marooned there for days. But I think there are aspects there that we can learn and adapt for ourselves. We should not miss the opportunity to lay a proper foundation for an effective transportation system for the new city at Marina South.

I come now to car park requirements which is another important aspect of the transportation policy. I want to take this opportunity to announce that my Ministry will be relaxing further the minimum number of car park lots that developers and building owners will be required to provide. The measures which the Government has so far introduced to discourage people from driving their cars to work have resulted in low occupancy of car parks within the city, especially in the car parks in the Central Business District. It does not make sense to continue to insist on high car parking provisions for new developments within the city. Therefore, we are relaxing the requirements. I am sure developers would welcome the relaxation of these minimum requirements. The PWD will announce details of the revised requirements soon.

Sir, all these big plans that we have to build interchanges, viaducts and road tunnels do not come cheap. They are expensive. An interchange costs something like $20 million. The Keppel Viaduct costs $68 million. The CTE tunnels now under construction cost about $100 million per kilometre. And future tunnels may cost even more. The underground roads identified in PWD's preliminary study are estimated to cost $1.4 billion, ie, $1,400 million. So those who benefit and use these expensive alternatives must pay a reasonable part of the cost of building and maintaining these investments. Electronic road pricing and other methods will have to be used to do this.

Besides assessing the financial cost of these viaducts, flyovers and tunnels, we must also assess their cost to the quality of life in Singapore. I think anybody who has been to Los Angeles must be very conscious of how the quality of life can be affected, even if a society has the land and the money to spend all that it wants on building viaducts, roads, tunnels and so on. These investments, these types of measures, can encroach into our precious greenery, generate noise and increase the level of air pollution. They can also be a blight on our landscape. Our desire to build these facilities is ultimately limited by how we are going to strike a balance, a balance between our desire to maintain the quality of the environment for all Singaporeans and meeting the desire to own cars by those who can afford them. This is really the test. It is not just a question of how much money we are prepared to spend, what technology we have, but what kind of quality of life we want for Singaporeans.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this is so much for the general road planning.

Let me now take some of the specific points made. Dr Wang proposed that we adopt the turn on red system that is practised in some American cities. The PWD has considered this alternative, but they are not very much in favour because, even in America, it does not work well. It requires great discipline on the part of a motorist, and I do not think that our drivers have the greatest discipline in the world to try out this method. We have to take into account the safety of pedestrians. As we begin to lay more and more emphasis on public transportation, there will be more and more pedestrians and we must give pedestrians some priority. For the moment, we do not intend to proceed or to implement any turn on red programme. But wherever there is land and wherever it is possible, we would try and institute free left turning lanes.

I think regarding the other points about efficient use of traffic lights through computerisation and vehicle loop detectors, I have already touched on them.

Mr Chin Harn Tong described vividly his frustration at being caught in traffic jams caused by road works. Sir, in any economy that is developing, there are bound to be road works. The only way that we would not have road works and building is when we stop growing. But I agree entirely that we must minimise the disruption. We have laid down very strict guidelines for those contractors who have to open up roads to lay services on how they should have clear signals and signs and do their work in such a way that they do not impede the flow of traffic unnecessarily. I would appreciate very much if Members who come across cases where contractors do not have clear signs would let the Ministry know. In fact, I am going to suggest that we give some blank forms to all MPs which they can keep in their cars and when they note such instances, they can just fill up the form or telephone the PWD. We will take action, and action is taken against contractors who do not follow the guidelines laid down by the PWD for road opening.

The other point is a suggestion which has been made very often and that is the question of a common service duct. This is something that is being looked into, especially for the new areas like Marina South, where the area has not been built up yet and we can start laying the system. But for existing areas, it would be a very expensive proposition because we have to redirect the existing services.

While on this subject, I ought to again clarify a misconception that some people have that if you have a common duct, then you can put all the services in the common duct. It is not possible. It is dangerous to have, for example, a gas pipe next to an electric cable. If there is a gas leak and if there is also a leak in the electrical cable and there is a spark, there will be a huge explosion. It is not possible, for example, to have a sewer line in a common duct because sewer lines work on gravity and they go very deep. While we should do everything possible to minimise road openings, the solution is not so simple. But wherever possible, we are trying to lay these services off the main road, ie, on the roadside table or verge. In fact, major services will no longer be allowed along our expressways and all the services will be laid off the road on the roadside table. Our newer arterial roads have similarly adopted this concept of a segregated services area at the roadside table. So the road itself may not be opened. As I explained, for the older roads, this is a little more difficult to do.

I now come to the question of car parking charges in Changi. It is true that the URA manages the car parks but the car parks belong to the Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore. But regardless of who manages, there are certain parameters that will determine car parking charges. There is a limit to the number of car parks that can be provided in the vicinity of the Airport. So car parking charges are not determined purely by congestion considerations. It is determined by demand and supply. The demand for car parking lots at Changi Airport is consistently high. As at February 1990, I am told that there were just over a thousand season ticket holders paying $75 a month for the various season car parks at Changi Airport.

It is necessary to strike a balance between the demand for season car parks with other demands, ie, the hourly car parks, reserved lots, long-term requirement and so on. There may be lots which are empty now and it is entirely up to the Civil Aviation Authority to determine whether it would be preferable to reduce the rate and increase the usage or convert the land on which the car parks now stand for some other use. But ultimately, it must be determined by supply and demand, regardless of where the car park is in Singapore.

The car parks in Changi have to cater not only for the needs of the workers but also for the members of the public who go to the Airport to send people off or to receive them. It seems fair to me that those car parks that are used exclusively or reserved exclusively for workers should have a premium attached to them. But as I said, it is entirely for the CAAS to determine whether the demand and supply situation is such that they can reduce the car parking charges.

On the second causeway, there has been some discussion with the Malaysian authorities. There seems to be a general agreement that the second crossing should be at the extension of Jalan Ahmad Ibrahim. But there are many details to be further discussed, the exact nature of the crossing and whether it should be a causeway or causeway plus bridge or entirely a bridge. These have still to be settled and among the items to be discussed and settled will be the question of whether there would be toll charges. If there are toll charges, obviously the charges will have to apply at both ends or it has got to be a system where both sides will have a share of the toll charges. You cannot have a situation where one side charges and the other side does not.

Lastly, I come to Dr Lee's reading of the HDB annual accounts. He wants to know what kind of loans, what kind of depreciation, how car parks can depreciate. Sir, the HDB has different cost and activity centres and cost is allocated to different centres in accordance with normal accounting practices. HDB borrows money for all its activities and how the cost of these loans is allocated is based upon principles agreed with the auditors. And a part of the loans will be applied to car parking charges. I cannot tell Dr Lee offhand how much interest will be charged. If he wants to file a question, I can have an answer prepared. What kind of depreciation? How can car parks depreciate? The question is not whether car parks depreciate or not. When you have a capital investment, you have to recover the capital investment as well as the cost of the land. Land does not depreciate but you still have to recover the cost of the land. All these things should go into a proper costing of car parks. As to the $9 million that he mentioned, I do not have the report here with me. I think he also mentioned the figure of $108 million and that there is a detailed breakdown, except for $9 million. If he wants to know what the $9 million is made up of, please file a question and I will answer it.

Sir, I think I have answered all the points raised by the Members.

The Chairman: Yes, Dr Beng. Please be brief. We are running out of time.

Dr Arthur Beng Kian Lam (Fengshan): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I just seek the Minister's clarification on a few points?

First, I would like to say that we welcome the Minister's statement on the plans for road development. These plans give us new hope now that we are told that we have not reached the limit as it were for road development with the application of new technology. This is something which is most welcome. My question to the Minister is: how many more cars will the road system be able to accommodate, as a ballpark figure, to be fair to the Minister?

Secondly, we welcome the provision to make the MRT stations more user-friendly, to have walkways, pickup points, bicycle parks and especially the park-and-ride scheme. I would also ask the Minister as to where these take place, around which MRT stations and roughly the target dates in which these schemes will be implemented.

Thirdly, I welcome the announcement about the semi-expressways. I would like to seek the Minister's clarification about the engineering aspects of these expressways. What type of speed limit will these semi-expressways to be constructed be able to cope with?

Mr Dhanabalan: Mr Speaker, Sir, the question of how much more traffic capacity can be increased by all these improvements is precisely one of the factors that we are studying right now to determine whether or not it is worthwhile embarking on this tunnel programme. I cannot give a ballpark figure or a cock shy figure because whatever figures I give will pro- bably be later thrown back at me. But this is precisely one of the points. Very preliminary studies show that the increase is not going to be very dramatic. So I do not want to give the impression that with all these investments we can completely lift or we can liberalise the present policies on curbing the car population. But we intend to try and extract the maximum that we can from the system and this is a very key consideration that we will have to settle before we embark on this plan. I am sorry I cannot be more clear than that.

As to the facilities around MRT stations, I think I mentioned the details of where the bicycle parks will be. The question of where the park-and-ride scheme will be, that is still not determined. We are looking at various places. But the other schemes, like properly shaded walkways and so on, will be done for all MRT stations. In fact, I have asked PWD together with MRT to make sure that every station has a proper system of pedestrian walkways from population centres to the MRT station.

As regards speed limit on semi-expressways, I cannot tell him offhand. I think it should not be any different from Bukit Timah and Dunearn Road semi-expressways.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I have just one request. In view of what the Minister has said that the reduction of the car parking charges in Changi Airport comes under the jurisdiction of the CAAS, may I now request the Minister for Communications and Information to help in persuading CAAS to bring down the car parking charges in Changi Airport?

Dr Koh Lip Lin: I thank the Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TC 9853052 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, the buildings along Hill Street have been requisitioned by the Government for road widening quite some time ago. Along Hill Street, Stamford House, Eu Court and other shophouses have all been requisi- tioned supposedly for road widening. Hill Street has been widened from Elgin Bridge to Coleman Street. Now the Minister has just told us that Victoria Street will also be widened to have eight lanes. But what about the plans for Hill Street itself from Coleman Street to Stamford Road? What are the plans for the houses lining Hill Street that have been requisitioned? If there should be road widening, one would have thought that those houses might have to be pulled down in some form or other. Would the Minister be kind enough to explain?

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, the first point I would like to clarify is that the Capitol Building, Stamford House and Eu Court Building were acquired for two reasons. One, as the Member has mentioned, is road widening. The other, which is perhaps a more important consideration, is that we have a policy of acquiring all sites near MRT stations so that society as a whole can benefit from the increased values of sites around MRT stations. We have got to bear in mind that there are two reasons.

Regarding the stretch of road between Coleman Street and Stamford Road, we have two options for that stretch in order to connect the road that has been completed up to the Central Fire Station to the stretch that has already been built at the Crawford Street end. One option is to widen this stretch of Hill Street to eight lanes which will require the demolition of Eu Court. The second option is to upgrade Armenian Street and Queen Street for traffic going eastwards from Coleman Street to Middle Road. Then Hill Street will be converted into a five-lane road with two lanes for traffic going eastwards and three lanes for west-bound traffic. This means no demolition will be required. My Ministry is of the view that the second option is a better option. It allows the buildings along Hill Street to Victoria Street, between Coleman Street and Middle Road, to be retained. But this option has still to be worked out.

I do not know which houses he is referring to when he says he is not aware of future plans. I do not know whether he is talking of Eu Court or ---

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: All along Hill Street.

Mr Dhanabalan: All along Hill Street. Yes, then my answer would apply to all those houses.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Would the Minister care to explain what he means by using the land above the MRT for additional lanes? Does he mean tunnels or the road itself?

Mr Dhanabalan: I think he is referring to my previous answer. I was talking about the Victoria Street end where there is already an MRT station and there is an MRT tunnel running under the road. So we cannot really build high buildings above the tunnel and we intend to use that part of Victoria Street to widen Victoria Street.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng (Mounbatten): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TD 5100 of the Development Estimates.

In moving this amendment, Sir, I just want to know the answer to two questions. (1) What are the recreational facilities that will be developed in Pasir Ris and Changi? (2) More importantly, what is the role of the private sector in this programme?

Mr Chng Hee Kok (Tiong Bahru GRC): Sir, I want to raise with the Minister the subject of golf or, more correctly, the provision of public golf courses.

For a variety of reasons, the demand for golf courses has increased. The game of golf is gaining popularity with rising incomes, greater publicity, starting golf at a young age and, of course, the proliferation of golf driving ranges. Sir, despite the land squeeze, I believe there is enough land that may be developed into public golf courses. By developing such land, which is not suitable for other purposes, we can at the same time maintain the landscape and the greenery.

The other kind of land that may be used for public golf course is reclaimed land, for example, land at Marina South and land along the East Coast Parkway whereby the land is not likely to be developed for the next 15 to 20 years. Can we give private operators or private enterprises temporary occupation licence of, say, 15 to 20 years, for them to develop such courses?

In view of the demand and need I would like to urge the Minister to direct his planners to look into this.

The Minister of State for National Development (Mr Peter Sung): Sir, to answer Mr Eugene Yap's question about recreational facilities at Changi and Pasir Ris, the Urban Redevelopment Authority is developing a development guide plan for the Changi Point area. The study covers an area of about 170 hectares bounded by Upper Changi Road, Loyang Avenue, Changi Golf Course, Sungei Selarang and the East Johor Straits. The hilly topography, the serene environment and the scenic views in that area lend itself to development as a seaside resort for the enjoyment of both Singaporeans and tourists. Preliminary ideas for the development of that area consist of a wide band of sandy beaches, some marine recreation and sea sports. Also the area around Changi Village and Changi Creek can lend itself for enhancement into a hotel and entertainment area and also a resort centre with holiday flats, chalets and bungalows. The development guide plan for that area is still in a very preliminary stage of planning and more details will be made known. Parts of those plans that lend itself to private sector participation will of course be made available to the public to participate.

On Mr Chng's request for more land to be set aside for golf course uses, we are happy to announce that several sites are being studied for potential use as golf courses. This would include land around catchment areas which are not suitable for other development or for land in areas which have restrictions on height or pollution considerations. Those land will also be set aside for study as potential use for golf courses. Of course, vacant reclaimed land which is not immediately required for development can also be studied for such purpose. We shall be implementing a plan to release more land for golf and other recreational uses.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TG 2100 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, Changi is largely a rural constituency. For the last 10 years or so, clearance of squatters has been going on and most residents have been resettled in HDB estates. Lands which have been vacated by residents are left unmanaged by the relevant Government departments. As a result, overgrown vegetation has filled up the vacant land camouflaging the discarded household goods and other unwanted items. Abandoned dogs and cats run wild on these unmanaged lands. Rats and snakes also infested these areas. Sir, the grounds also became mosquito breeding grounds. All these problems have become a nuisance to other residents not affected by resettlement. On the one hand, the residents were told to clear out from the kampongs fast but, on the other hand, the lands are not managed or developed after the residents have moved out.

Sir, in the last few weeks there were a few fires which happened in the unmanaged land because of the dry weather and because of the overgrown vegetation. I would like the Minister to look into this problem and have all these unmanaged lands managed.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Encik Yatiman Yusof): Sir, the HDB is widely known for its success and commitment to keep our living environment in the public housing clean and green. The swift manner in which the HDB acts to re-turf patches of grass resulting from burning of joss papers during certain festive months and the resources it spends to beautify the housing estates is a clear manifestation of its desire to keep the living environment clean and green. The HDB must be congratulated for making living in public housing such a pleasant one.

The Chairman: Order. Encik Yatiman, are you on the right subject?

Encik Yatiman Yusof: Yes.

The Chairman: You have asked to speak about sand dunes at Bedok Reservoir.

Encik Yatiman Yusof: It is, Sir. However, the HDB seems to face some difficulties in fulfilling the desirable objective in the Bedok Reservoir area, at least at this juncture. Sir, I am referring to a massive sand pile at Tampines Avenue 1, near the man-made reservoir, with attendant problems to the residents nearby. Sir, I choose the term "sand dunes", not out of climatological ignorance because, sand dunes, as it is universally known, are normally found in the desert areas. But in the case of the sand dunes in Tampines Avenue 1, Sir, the problem it caused the residents has reached a scale quite close to those sand dunes in the desert region. Not only is the glare of the white and loose sand painful to the eyes, but the dust blown by the usually turbulent wind in the open space has caused severe hardship to the residents nearby. Sweeping the flats twice a day does not solve the problem. On many occasions, the tiny sand particles landed in their eyes. The continuous movement of lorries unloading the sand had worsened the situation. The problem was also highlighted in the Straits Times report recently.

Sir, I understand the sand was initially excavated from the Bedok Reservoir and left there at a time when the population was sparse in the area. Now the place is densely populated. May I respectfully suggest that the HDB consider one of the following: (1) Sell the sand to the building contractors who, I believe, will be happier to buy them than having to import from other countries. (2) Shift the sand dunes to other place far away from the heavily populated area. (3) Plant creepers or related vegetation to hold the loose sand from being blown away.

The Chairman: Who is in charge of sand dunes?

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, on the question of maintenance of resettled land which, as Mr Teo has said, is becoming a nuisance to those living in the area, I would explain that these vacant lands are maintained by the HDB. In general, it has term contractors to cut the grass at least once a month to prevent mosquito breeding. Wherever it is necessary, of course, other measures, such as oil spraying is carried out. The general policy is to pay much more attention to vacant land near residential areas, precisely for the reason that the Member mentioned. They are normally turfed and the grass is cut twice a month. But where there is any failure on the part of the contractors to do a proper job, I would appreciate it if Members would bring them to the attention of the Housing Board. I agree entirely that such areas or such vacant sites should not become the dumping ground for refuse or for abandoning dogs or animals. We will do everything possible to prevent that.

But I must also point out that there is not much purpose in keeping all large tracts of vacant land completely manicured. I think we are so used to the very high standard of work of the Parks and Recreation Department that Singaporeans do not want to see anything that looks wild and unkempt, so much so that when we allow grass to grow along East Coast Parkway, we have to put up signs to explain to people why the grass is being allowed to grow. So some areas will be left a little more wild or left in their natural state. But this does not mean that they will become dumping grounds. While it is HDB's responsibility to ensure that the places are well maintained, we can do our own bit to help the HDB by reporting cases where people dump things at such sites.

The Ministry will be gradually improving the state of more vacant lands in various areas, and I think the Member for Changi would be pleased to note that some of the sites in his constituency are slated for early sprucing over the next year or so.

Regarding the sand dunes, I want to thank Mr Yatiman for his overture which was a fanfare of praise to HDB. I want to tell him that the one suggestion that he made which looks, I think, even absurd to the Members here, that the sand pile should be moved, is, in this particular case, the one solution that is going to be adopted. Not because the sand pile is a nuisance, but because the site is needed for another purpose. The new polytechnic will be built there. Therefore, the sand pile is going to be moved to a site far away from residential areas. But in the meantime, no sand is being transported into the area. In fact, since December last year there has been no transportation of sand to this sand stockpile. We cannot of course allow anything to grow on the sand because the sand is needed for construction purposes and it is being used by the construction industry. But not all of it can be consumed overnight. In the meantime, it has to be transported to another place and stored. I think the nuisance that the residents who live in the area now face should disappear once the sand pile is removed.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I am quite happy with the Minister's reply. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (6). Mr Yap.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TG 5100 of the Development Estimates.

Can I ask the Minister whether there are plans to develop the piece of land in Tanjong Rhu since vacated by shipyards and boatyards? In finalising these plans, will the Minister take into account the social, economic and political considerations? As this piece of prime land is perhaps one of those very few left, we should put it to good use. What I wish to see is that this piece of land will have on it good recreational, food and entertainment facilities, and a real good mix of housing types so that more people can have the opportunity to live and enjoy pleasant environment.

Mr Peter Sung: Sir, I would like to assure Mr Eugene Yap that he will not be too disappointed by what Government is going to do. A Master Plan for the area has been developed. It was publicly exhibited in December 1988. A public dialogue was held in April last year. As a result of the feedback from the public, the URA has prepared a revised Master Plan and Implementation Strategy for that area. The Ministry is now studying this revised Master Plan produced by the URA.

There are some shipyards in the area. Those shipyards will have to be relocated by the middle of 1991. Such relocation is necessary before we reclaim the land around that area. Existing shipyards will be offered alternative sites by JTC.

Some of the land in that area will have to be acquired. Small private lots that cannot be developed independently will have to be acquired. The sites where the existing shipyards are located will also have to be acquired if they are not relocated by mid-1991.

There are also large tracts of land owned by single owners. The Government is now considering one of two options. One is to acquire the land so that it will facilitate speedy comprehensive development of the area. The second option is to allow existing owners to re-develop their properties in conformity with the Master Plan for Tanjong Rhu.

The redevelopment envisaged a number of features. These are: a good class residential development along the waterfront. There will also be an enhanced recreational environment for the Kallang Basin which would link to the sports facilities at the Kallang Stadium. There will be sandy beaches and facilities for boating and other sea sports.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: Can I just ask the Minister of State what he means by "a good class residential development"?

Mr Peter Sung: Mr Chairman, a good class residential development is one in a good environment. In this particular case, it is the seafront and is very near to recreational facilities.

Mr Eugene Yap Giau Cheng: As long as more people can afford to stay there, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Encik Wan Hussin bin Hj Zoohri (Aljunied GRC): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TH 5100 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, in May 1988 the Minister for National Development held a dialogue session on the draft Master Plan on the Civic District. It received good coverage in the media. The Master Plan included the conservation of the historic districts of Chinatown, Little India and Kampong Glam.

Sir, with particular reference to Kampong Glam, may I know from the Minister what are the detailed plans for the conservation and development of the Kampong Glam precinct? For example, will this precinct be revitalised and developed so as to recapture parts of its historic ambience? How will the surrounding area blend with the architecture of the Sultan Mosque and also the historic Kampong Glam Istana? And will the feedback from the community leaders in this area be taken into consideration? Would the Minister also kindly inform the House when will the conservation and development work start and its estimated time of completion?

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Mr Chairman, Sir, much publicity has been given to conservation in Tanjong Pagar and the so-called revitalising of the Civic District. Many of the properties were originally requisitioned by Government for so-called urban renewal. The owners of the properties and tenants were paid very poor compensation.

I wish now to refer to Eu Court where I was a tenant until recently, and therefore I wish to declare also my interest in the matter. But of course I also speak for all those owners of properties and other tenants who have been similarly affected and been paid very poor and unfair compensation by the Government or URA.

Eu Court Building, Sir, was originally requisitioned by Government supposedly for road widening and was supposed to have been demolished. And that was at the time when we were negotiating some form of compensation with the original owner. But a second reason has been added in order to make it look fairer, and now plans have again been changed. Government has decided not to demolish Eu Court, as the Minister has said, which was built pre-war and rent-controlled and still had a few tenants. But new laws were passed to allow the landlord, that is, Government to recover possession of the premises for so-called preservation or conservation and restoration. Guidelines also were said to have been issued to infor, the owners how conservation should be carried out and, of course, how to evict tenants. The idea, Sir, was simple. It was to allow or legitimise eviction without adequate fair compensation.

In Eu Court itself, what sort of conservation has been carried out? So far as I know, and I have been a tenant there for quite sometime, a knock here, a knock there, a change of some old electric wires, maybe changing the flooring to a certain extent, a new coat of paint. That's all. That is Government's so-called conservation. But this is exactly what everybody does the moment he moves into a new place. So what sort of conservation is he talking about? That is the way how Government has very, very unfairly evicted many tenants without fair compensation.

I wish the Minister will explain Government's action in all these evictions.

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, can I first answer Mr Wan Hussin's question about Kampong Glam? I take the opportunity to inform him and other Members of the progress made in the conservation work in this area.

We announced and in fact gazetted the area as a conservation area in March 1989. Since then, owners of 43 units of shophouses in Kampong Glam area have submitted plans for formal approval. Of course, this is still less than 10% of the units in the area, but it is a good start.

We did consult community leaders from Kampong Glam and invited them to view an exhibition on conservation of historic districts and their feedback on the conservation area was sought and, wherever possible, useful ideas will be incorporated in the final plans for the area. One of the important and significant buildings in the area is of course the Istana Kampong Glam. There are plans to restore and repair this Istana to its original splendour, but there are some legal problems and legal matters which have to be cleared up first before we can proceed with this.

Arab Street and Bussorah Street being the core of the Kampong Glam area will continue to maintain the commercial activities and promote the cultural heritage of the area. We intend to pedestrianise some of the streets there leading to the mosque so that we can retain the more quiet ambience around the mosque, although the mosque fronts fairly well trafficked roads. Other areas within the Kampong Glam area will be for general commercial as well as residential activities. There are some shophouses owned by the State in the area. These would be renovated by the URA as a pilot project and also to demonstrate to the other owners in the area what can be done with the buildings in the Kampong Glam area. The project is targeted to start in July next year and should be completed by late 1992. The rest of the area will take longer to complete. I am afraid that I cannot state exactly how long it will take because, as I said, it is not just a straight question of architectural and engineering problems, but there are also some legal problems to be sorted out.

On the question of conservation raised by Dr Lee, he reminds me of a very well-known Danish pianist, Victor Borge. You can give him any tune, any composer, and he can make them all sound the same. You want it to sound like a waltz, you can give him anything and he will make it sound like a waltz. So regardless of what subject we are dealing with, Dr Lee really makes the same old points. He talks about a conservation programme as an eviction programme. I think he well knows that all these areas which are designated as conservation areas were rent-controlled areas. When I announced that these areas would be decontrolled, I said that they would not be decontrolled in the sense that the owner could just evict the tenant. The owner will first of all have to produce plans, show that he has the money to complete his redevelopment plans and only then would the Tenants Compensation Board look at the case and fix the compensation for the tenant, ie, if the tenant and owner cannot come to an agreement on their own. It is not just a question of owners evicting tenants to repossess their properties without any reason. The reason must be a redevelopment plan which is approved by the URA.

He asked about Eu Court. I have already explained this. Perhaps I should explain again. As I said, Eu Court and the other buildings were acquired partly because they were near the MRT station and partly because of road widening proposals. There is some rethinking on the road widening proposal and I explained the options that we are considering. As far as the three buildings are concerned - Capitol Building, Shaw Building and Eu Court - we will keep them for the moment. They are not declared as conservation buildings nor as conservation areas. The plan now is that it is unlikely that we will need the sites in the next 15 years or so. But if the need arises and there is great pressure to redevelop that particular area comprehensively, then I think we should seriously at that stage consider knocking them down. The land there is not immediately required. It is just like the row of buildings opposite Dhoby Ghaut MRT station. They have been leased out for short periods of up to 10 years. They have been restored. They are being used. But that whole site is still the subject of comprehensive redevelopment. So the question of Eu Court and the other buildings there is still not settled. But we have acquired them. They are part of a comprehensive redevelopment plan. In any case, conservation is part of an urban redevelopment programme. Urban renewal does not mean just knocking down buildings and putting up new buildings. It also covers the conservation of existing buildings.

I think he is being very simplistic when he says that all owners just put on a coat of paint, but that is not conservation. In the case of Eu Court, there were some extensive repairs that had to be done. Of course, from the outside, it looks the same but cleaner. As I have already mentioned, it is not yet gazetted and at the present moment we still have not decided whether we want to consider it as a conservation area. But at least for the next 10-15 years, there is no intention to pull them down unless, as I said just now, we do not proceed with the other option of extending the road that has been built from Neil Road to the Central Fire Station.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Mr Speaker, Sir, since the Government has no plans to make use of that area for the next 15 years and since Eu Court has not been gazetted as a conservation building, how come that the tenants who were there were evicted and on very poor compensation? On what excuse was that done? Again, if the buildings were acquired because they were near the MRT station, how come buildings just next to this building were not similarly acquired, just around the corner? How does the Government explain all this?

Mr Dhanabalan: Mr Speaker, Sir, Dr Lee knows the compensation policy. All owners and tenants were compensated according to the policy. One of the very important considerations in fixing compensation is the fact that these are rent controlled properties. Being rent controlled properties, rents were fixed. Owners, of course, paid the penalty for low rentals and tenants benefitted by paying very low rentals for a long, long time. Compensation was fixed on the basis of the existing situation, which was a low value for the property because it was rent controlled and rentals were low. It is an established principle and everybody there was compensated according to this established principle.

As to why the other properties were not acquired, when you draw a line as to where to acquire properties there will always be areas just outside the border. All these buildings that we have acquired were on sites that were meant for redevelopment. The fact that we are not redeveloping immediately does not mean that they will not be redeveloped. As I said, the land supply and the projected building is such that we do not require these sites immediately. So we might as well put them to some interim use. The final development plan of the site has not been determined yet.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: I also know of buildings that have been acquired by the Government and nothing is being done by the Government. Since the original owners would like to buy back their own property, how is it that the Government does not allow them to buy their property back?

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, I think we can go round and round this question and not get anywhere. I have already explained that these are rent controlled properties near the MRT station. The site is meant for redevelopment and Government has acquired it. And we have not sold it. If the original owners want to buy it when the site is finally sold, they can make a bid for it just like anybody else.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Is this the way the Government hopes to make money out of the people?

Mr Chiam See Tong (Potong Pasir): I am really astounded to hear that the Government acquires land 15 years ahead of its use.

Mr Dhanabalan: That is planning.

Mr Chiam See Tong: You do not need the land now, but you acquire it first. And only in 15 years' time then you will be using the land. Is this not abusing the Land Acquisition Act? If there are lands which are acquired one or two years ahead of time for clearance and for preparation and building the structure, that is fair enough. But in this particular case, we hear the Minister say that the Government is not going to make use of the land until 15 years later. You acquire it first. This is definitely abuse of the Land Acquisition Act.

Mr Dhanabalan: Mr Speaker, Sir, we have to plan well in advance. Let us just take the example of these three buildings. If Government had not acquired these three buildings, the owners would not have been able to get rid of their tenants. It would have continued to be a slum in the centre of a city that is being spruced up and redeveloped. Owners were not making the attempt and they were not able to get rid of their tenants. Government had plans for the area. Yes, even 15 years from now, so what? When it comes to land development, you must think well ahead of requirement. You do not wait for 15 years when the whole area is redeveloped and this little slum is there before you acquire it. Government acquires well in advance of requirement and in order to spruce up the civic area, we had to acquire. We have evicted the tenants. We are now restoring the buildings and they will be rented out and there will be good usage that we can be proud of in that area.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir, in Hong Kong, the business life is about five years. In other words, it is equivalent to three business cycles in Hong Kong. That is a long time. The issue now is not that there is imminent or urgent use of this land but to get rid of sub-tenants. Surely if an owner owns the building and if it has deteriorated to such an extent, the Government has laws to ask the owners to renovate and to keep the building in good shape. I do not think it will deteriorate to such an extent that it will become slums. So the issue now is that the Government acquires it so that they can get rid of the sub-tenants. This would appear to be the rationale in acquiring the land, rather than its use.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: One last question, Sir. In order to justify what the Government has done, the Minister assumes a little too much. How could he know that negotiations had failed between the tenant and the old landlord? What evidence has he got?

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, let me answer Dr Lee's point. The evidence was for all to see as they drove by Stamford Road. Nothing was done for years and I think that is sufficient evidence.

Coming to Mr Chiam's point, I am very surprised that he draws a parallel between Singapore and Hong Kong. In fact, he is a bit outdated. The cycle is not five years. It is two years. Because of 1997, anybody who invests anything now wants his money back in two years. Is that what we are? Surely Singapore thinks well ahead of requirement. And one of the principles in acquiring is also to spruce up the whole city and the whole of Singapore. There are areas that we have resettled where we may not use the land for maybe another five or 10 years. We have resettled and rehoused the people because they were living in poor unsanitary conditions. We are doing that all the time and we are not at all apologetic about it. We plan well ahead. We intend to clean up the city and rehouse the people properly.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir, this is the first time I have heard that the Government acquires land 15 years ahead of time. What is the cut-off period? Why 15 years? Make it 20, 30, 50 years. We can acquire all land. Whichever valuable land we see we acquire first. We are going to make use of it in future, 30 years from today. It is long-term planning. So where is the security for business people to invest in Singapore? They do not know when their land will be taken away. This is like the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Anytime their land could be taken away at the slightest reason. 15 years, 20 years, it may or may not come.

Mr Dhanabalan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think I will make one last point. Mr Chiam is being alarmist. We acquire land that is available for redevelopment. Land that is already developed where there are buildings, we do not acquire. If you look at any of the MRT stations, you will find that there are new private developments around the MRT station that we have not acquired. These are developments by the owners. They have put up new buildings, shopping centres, and other kind of developments, and we have left them alone. But where there are sites for redevelopment, sites which are either vacant or sites occupied by old buildings which are due for redevelopment, we acquire them. We have done so all over the city. If Mr Chiam has been walking around and looking at what has been happening, he would know. I am surprised that he is surprised.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir, the Minister has not touched on the point of security for businessmen who would want to invest in land in Singapore. Where is the security if their land could at any time be acquired by the Government?

Mr Dhanabalan: Could I answer his question?

The Chairman: As you wish.

Mr Dhanabalan: We assume that when businessmen acquire land they have development proposals. Before anybody buys land, as a lawyer, Mr Chiam would know they will make the necessary enquiries from the departments concerned as to whether there is any public scheme in the area. And public scheme includes acquisition for conservation, acquisition for road widening, or acquisition for any other purposes.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir, I think the Minister ---

The Chairman: Mr Chiam, we are running out of time.

Mr Chiam See Tong: Sir, if we make a search from the Land Office they will never tell whether the land will be acquired or not. I think the Minister knows that.

Mr Dhanabalan: I think Mr Chiam should know that the words "required for public scheme" covers a lot of things. As a lawyer, he should know that.

Encik Wan Hussin bin Haji Zoohri: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I just want to remind Members that we are falling behind time. Amendment No. 8, Dr Vasoo.

Dr S. Vasoo (Tiong Bahru GRC): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TI 5200 of the Development Estimates.

Sir, there is a need for a more comprehensive plan to upgrade old housing estates. If we take a survey of housing estates in district 3 to district 12, we will find that the housing estate environment has deteriorated quite a fair bit. Firstly, the young have left these estates, leaving the old behind. Many of these properties have deteriorated in terms of external facades. The facilities in these estates are also poor and have not been upgraded. I feel that in the longer term many of these old public housing estates will not be able to retain the young. There is an urgency to address this problem because younger residents do not find the facilities in these estates attractive. Secondly, the population in these old estates has also aged and the facilities in these estates have not become user-friendly to the old. There is a need to re-look at these old estates to see how facilities could be improved. What I want to ask the Minister is what plans are being made to improve the facilities of the old estates and whether he would deploy resources immediately to address some of the problems and to make these estates more attractive to the young to stay on.

Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon (Yuhua): ( In Mandarin): Sir, the Housing and Development Board has achieved its objective of providing houses for all who require accommodation. The HDB has been transferring some of its duties and functions to town councils to enable the people to manage their own housing estates. To let the people manage their own lives and living conditions is good, but when you allow the free market mechanism to determine the prices, the Minister should see that the HDB also bears some social and civic responsibilities to the community. With market mechanism in operation, civic and charitable organizations are concerned when a certain site or a void deck of HDB estates is used for a public purpose the rental will be affected. Here, I would like to appeal to the Minister, when developing new towns, responsibilities to the community should not be forgotten, by allowing the void decks and other sites to be used by civic and charitable organisations like Home Service Centre, Senior Citizens' Club, Education Centre, RC and creches, etc and to provide facilities and services for the requirements and community needs of the residents. In other words, sites for both old and new organizations at low rentals to enable them to continue providing services and facilities to the residents. I hope the Minister can give this matter serious consideration.

Encik Yatiman Yusof: Sir, I have three amendments under this Subhead. May I be allowed to take them together?

The Chairman: Yes.

Encik Yatiman Yusof: Sir, on unoccupied flats, I would like to focus my comments on unoccupied HUDC flats. Sir, in my view, the problem of unoccupied HUDC flats stems from the desire of potential buyers to live in an area which is exclusively theirs, on one hand, and our social policy of encouraging greater interaction among our people from different income groups, on the other. But, Sir, privacy and exclusivity, to some extent, need not be created out of distance and isolation. The precinct concept, if handled and implemented innovatively, can achieve the desired effect.

In this respect, Sir, through distinct landscaping, creation of landmark, play of colour and texture, added by subtle delineation of "visual boundary", we may be able to create the impression or feeling that the HUDC flats situated within the public housing estate as something distinct but not detached or alienated.

Sir, the precinct concept was quite alien in the past. In our desire to create an environment which we hope could be conducive towards achieving a more cohesive society, we tend to fall into the trap of homogeneity and uniformity. Now, it is becoming more apparent that that sense of community can be carved through widely-perceived shared ownership, hence shared responsibility among the residents.

I believe that the HDB, in planning and designing its new public housing estates, had applied not only the neighbourhood but also the precinct concept to achieve this objective.

Could the HDB vigorously look into the possibility of applying or extending this concept to the already constructed but unoccupied HUDC flats?

Sir, on defective flats, it is not my intention to discuss normal defects found in our flats as a result of wear and tear. They are common problems found anywhere and are best managed through proper allocation of resources and careful but sustained efforts.

Sir, it is my contention that flats built during the "boom period" are grossly inferior compared to those built recently. As a result, flats built during that period are seriously lacking in both design and quality of construction.

About five to seven years after the flats were constructed, it is not uncommon for us to receive complaints relating to leaking toilet floors, cracked walls (especially those facing the sun), leaking from expansion joints and roofs. In a case or two, I was told that residents have to use umbrellas in their toilets.

Sir, it is not my intention to sensationalise this issue. We all know that it is impossible to guarantee high quality of construction and finishing when we could not prevent some unscrupulous contractors from taking advantage of the boom period.

In some cases, the problem is due to poor designing. I have received complaints from residents who were welcomed by splashing rain water as they opened the door of their corner flats or staircases flooded with water making it extremely slippery and dangerous, especially for the older ones. Could the HDB do something about it?

On the new flats booking system, Sir, I would like to ask the Minister whether the new system of allocation is working well. What are the major problems related to it and how his Ministry intends to solve the problem?

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, I will first take Dr Vasoo's question on how the older estates can be improved. I really have no new programmes to announce apart from the two programmes that are currently in hand, or which will be implemented over the course of the next few years. First of all, is the upgrading programme which involves the upgrading of the existing buildings. We are trying to bring them as close as possible to the current standards. The other programme is the redevelopment programme. This is the clearance of old blocks, rental blocks and then using the vacated land for new buildings which could be in many cases HDB development of large flats, ie, 4-room, 5-room, Executive-type flats, or even in some cases, private development. The mixture of the existing flats, upgraded existing flats, and the new flats in the redevelopment sites should improve the overall tone and activity in the area. But this is something that cannot be done overnight. It is a long term programme.

In fact, many Members have raised with me the question of delay in the redevelopment of sites that have already been cleared in their constituencies. I would like to take this opportunity to tell them why there is a delay. Some of these sites are prime sites and we have cleared a number of blocks, amalgamated the little pieces of land into a fairly good sizable piece of property that can be redeveloped. The intention is, in some of these cases, to sell it to the private sector for development. There are certain infrastructural investments that have been made, like MRT, for example. We want to make sure that the advantages of these infrastructural developments are factored in to property values before we sell these sites so that our people as a whole, society as a whole, can get the maximum out of these lands. So there is some delay in that respect.

The other problem is that HDB's overall building programme is now in the region of 12,000 to 15,000 flats. Many of these flats will in fact be built in the new towns. Some of them will be in redevelopment areas within the central area, like Tiong Bahru. But there is only a certain number that we can build within the city because, from now onwards, the flats will reflect the cost of the land on which the flats are built. So if a flat is in a new town, it will cost less than a similar flat or the same type of flat in the city area. If we build, for example, next year, all the flats in the city area, then all the flats are going to be very expensive and the people who want to buy may find that they cannot afford them. So we have to mix the building programme to include a large proportion of flats in the new towns, which everybody can afford, and some part of it in the central area which will be more expensive. It is for this reason that we cannot redevelop all the sites vacated by the one-room blocks in the city area. But we have a programme of redevelopment and this programme will be implemented over the next few years. But we do not have a quick solution to the problem of the older estates.

Mrs Yu-Foo asked about the use of void deck space. I think she wanted to know whether these void deck spaces will continue to be made available to non-profit making organizations and at cheap rentals. These are community and social service organizations. As Members know, for many years now, HDB has in fact converted and let out void deck space in housing blocks on a monthly tenancy basis to various social and community organizations and these have been at nominal rates of $3 per square metre per month or even $5 for the whole premises. HDB has been providing, in fact, most of the community and social service organizations with this type of subsidized rental premises. There is some rethinking on this, not from the point of view whether we should subsidize or not, but purely from the point of view of how this subsidy should be shown so that the population at large would know what kind of financial assistance is being given to community and social organisations.

The present system where HDB, in fact, gives a hidden subsidy is not a good system. Financial assistance to non-profit making organisations in the form of subsidies should be properly accounted for by the relevant Ministry or the relevant authority. This will give a much better accounting of the cost of welfare services provided by the Government. The HDB is now in the process of thinking through this policy. It has not made a decision yet on this policy of whether it should continue to make available subsidised rental premises for community and social organisations. It may revise the rentals charged for these premises. But obviously such revision can only be done after discussions with, for example, the Ministry of Community Development or other authorities, and after suitable arrangements have been made for the subsidies, if any, to be met out of the budget of these various agencies. So that is what is being considered at the present moment. No decision has been made.

Mr Yatiman talked about HUDC flats and the precinct concept. I was not quite clear. He asked whether we were prepared to extend the precinct concept. When I explained the upgrading programme of the HDB, I did mention that the upgrading programme will in fact create precincts that people can relate to. Neighbourhoods are rather large, New Towns are even larger. For people to relate to and feel a sense of belonging and a sense of responsibility for the area, the areas need to be fairly small. And upgrading will be done by precincts, and the precincts will be defined by easily identifiable boundaries which could be either roads or big monsoon drains or parks or whatever that exists on the site. So we will be extending the concept.

Defective flats. Yes, we are aware that during the boom period, there were defects caused by poor workmanship and the Board has drawn up a defects rectification programme to repair defects that are caused by poor workmanship. Lessees can report any defect found within the flat to the HDB Branch Offices for them to determine the cause and take appropriate action.

Regarding the new booking system, it is coming on well. One of the major results of the new booking system is that it has shown up exactly who really seriously requires a flat. When we started the system, we had 40,000 on the waiting list, and even in the first exercise, 7,000 decided to withdraw because they did not require a flat immediately. They had just put their names in the hope that somehow, some time, they would be able to get a flat in the ideal location. And 3,000 others, decided to opt for the walk-in selection system, which left only 30,000 in the booking system. These 30,000 were allocated flats in the new towns that they chose. Then they were called to come and actually book a specific flat. Our experience shows that even out of these 30,000, 10-15% may not finally book a flat because they cannot get the particular flat that they have in mind. One of the very important results of the booking system is that it has given us a clear idea of the actual real demand for housing. If we had not switched over to this system, we would have 40,000 on our waiting list, and HDB would have built 40,000 flats and then found that people were not prepared to buy them because they were not in the location that they wanted. Then we would have the problem of vacant flats. The system otherwise is working well.

Dr Vasoo: Sir, can I ask a supplementary question? I observe that in the older housing estates, the old find it increasing less mobile because there are no lifts in the five-storey housing blocks. I would request the Minister whether he will consider installing lifts, as part of this upgrading programme, in the five-storey blocks to help the old to be more mobile.

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, I shall ask HDB to look into that.

Dr Vasoo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (9). Encik Ibrahim Othman.

Encik Ibrahim Othman (Bedok GRC): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head T be reduced by $10 in respect of Code TJ 3400 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, town councils were formed to manage public housing estates. The Government gives grants to town councils to enable them to carry out cyclical repair works. At the same time, town councils are required to set up and maintain their own sinking funds to carry out these works.

Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to point out to the Minister that the grant to town councils for cyclical repair works is not sufficient. Let me give Bedok Town Council as an example.

The Bedok Town Council intends to do repair and redecoration works (R&R) for 30 blocks of flats in one of our divisions. The grant received for these 30 blocks is about $916,000. However, the present market rate for the R&R is slightly more than $2 million. We therefore have a shortfall of about $1.1 million. I understand that the estimated prices of the cyclical works computed by the Ministry of National Development are based on the 1986 rates. Due to the upswing in the building industry, prices for materials and labour have increased. The tight labour market and increase in foreign workers levy have also contributed to the problem.

Sir, in view of this, I appeal to the Minister to re-calculate the grant and give town councils additional grant to make up for the shortfall in R&R payment.

Dr Koh Lip Lin (Nee Soon South): Sir, I fully support Mr Ibrahim's request for increase of grants to town councils.

As pointed out by him, the grants given to town councils are based on the cost of 1986. Today, contract prices have gone up by about 30-50%. Most town councils therefore find it difficult to make ends meet. I wish to request the Minister to review the situation and to increase the grants to town councils perhaps at a rate proportional to the increase in contract prices.

Sir, I would also like to take this opportunity to bring up a matter concerning the use of reserve sites in HDB estates managed by the town councils. In most of the estates managed by the town councils, there are usually a number of pockets of land called reserve sites located within or adjacent to the town council boundaries. These sites are usually not managed by the town councils.

I have a few requests for the Minister to consider. First, I would like to request that the town council be consulted on development or use of these reserve sites - whether the sites are to be used for commercial, recreational or service purposes, whether they will be developed by the Government or by the private sector. I hope the town council can be informed and consulted before final decisions are made.

The second request is for those reserve sites which are not to be developed immediately, the Ministry should ensure that they are properly maintained. I have received complaints that some of these sites have been neglected and have become mosquito breeding grounds.

The last request is I would like the Minister to consider the possibility of converting some of these reserve sites into recreational areas, such as neighbourhood parks, jogging tracks, playgrounds or even golf driving ranges for the benefit of the town residents. And, of course, I also request that these projects be funded by the Government. The town councils will be most happy to assist in the planning of these facilities.

Mr Peh Chin Hua (Jalan Besar GRC): ( In Mandarin): Mr Chairman, Sir, I support what my colleague said on the grant given to the town councils.

It appears to everyone of us that there is always a surplus of $20,000 to $80,000 from the Annual Reports and Statements of Account of almost every town council. This is misleading, which gives people the impression that the Service Charge/Conservancy Charge (SC/CC) collections are able to meet the heavy expenditure and maintenance costs. This is incorrect and also an error.

In fact, the SC/CC collections are hardly sufficient to meet the expenditure. The deficit is more than a million dollars a year. If there is no grant from the Government of a few million dollars a year to each town council, where does the town council's surplus come from? They will have a deficit instead.

Take the Jalan Besar Town Council as an example. We have spent a lot of time and due consideration in preparing the budget and have adopted many cost-saving measures. Yet there is still a deficit of $1.8 million. Fortunately for us, with a grant of $1.9 million from the Government, we have been able to have a surplus of $60,000. However, with economic recovery and a tight labour market, the labour costs have increased tremendously. The unit price increase is more than 30% for conservancy work. This has worsened the financial position of the town council. The situation will deteriorate further if there is no prompt payment of conservancy charges or vandalism of property.

I would like to know whether there are any new measures or plans of the Government to resolve this problem or whether the Government is prepared to increase the grants to town councils or give more financial aid. Otherwise, HDB residents will suffer more if town councils fall into financial difficulty.

On the other hand, the Town Council Act specifies that the sinking funds should be 25% of the total income for the cyclical work, for example, liftworks, redecoration and repainting and replacement of TV antennas. But the mandatory requirement of 25% has made the town councils not able to use their funds flexibly and hence resulted in a very tight financial situation for the town councils. I, therefore, urge the Government to consider reducing the percentage of sinking funds so that the town councils can manage their expenditure more flexibly in order to benefit the residents.

Dr Ho Tat Kin (Toa Payoh GRC): Sir, grants provided by the Ministry to the town councils are calculated based on 1986 prices. But wages of skilled and technical workers have gone up since 1986 by about 40%. To provide for inflation, it is therefore natural for the town councils to put the grants in fixed deposits to earn interest. But the interest earned from investment of the grants is taxable.

A town council is not a profit-making body, neither is it a revenue-generating body. It is a statutory board set up to provide a service to residents. I would like to appeal to the Minister to seriously giving tax exemption status for the interest we earn from investing the grant so that the interest can be used to offset the increase in maintenance cost.

The range of preventive and cyclical maintenance work that the town councils need to do is still not very clear. Town councils were given to understand that the type of preventive and cyclical work consists of nine items and the type of preventive and cyclical maintenance work in general relates to common properties outside the flat. Recently, we were told that the main soil waste pipe system within the flat forms part of the common property to be maintained by the town council. When we refer to the table of preventive and cyclical maintenance work given to us earlier, this item of work was not included. Obviously, this additional item of maintenance work seems to be an after-thought. I would like to appeal again to the Minister to provide additional grants for the maintenance of the main soil waste pipe system.

One of the items that needs cyclical maintenance is the replacement of the CATV once every 17 years. But I believe CATV is not a very critical item and if the CATV is still in good working condition, then we can have some savings if we only replace those that need replacement. What I want to know is when we have some savings from one aspect of work, can the town council keep this savings to use for other aspects of work, such as development projects or must we return the savings to the Ministry? The Ministry should really provide some flexibility for the town council in managing its grants.

Sir, the grants, as calculated by the Ministry, as I understand, is based on a 15-year life of the flat. But in older towns there are many flats which are 20 years old or even older. Obviously, older flats have more maintenance problems than newer flats. For example, flats of age older than 15 years will need to replace the CATV; flats of 20 years will need rewiring; flats of 25 years will have to replace water pipes; and flats of 28 years will have to overhaul and upgrade the whole lift system. All these works are very expensive works. I would like to appeal again to the Minister to calculate the grants based on the actual life of the flats, and not based on an arbitrary figure of 15 years.

Town councils also have the responsibility to look after development of the town. Currently, we have only one other source of income, ie, from the service and conservancy charges. These S&C charges are in fact very low. They have been held constant for the last eight years, while the wages of cleansing workers have in fact gone up since 1988 by at least another 33%. Of course, town councils can increase S&C charges but how much can we increase at one time. This means that town councils do not have enough surplus from the S&C charges to do development works, such as more footpaths, more stone tables and chairs, playgrounds and so on. I would like to appeal again to the Minister to set up some form of development grants to which the town council could apply for assistance.

The Chairman: Order. I propose to take the tea break now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 2.55 pm.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 2.33 pm until 2.55 pm. Sitting resumed at 2.55 pm

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head T - (cont.)

Mr Chiam See Tong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would first like to declare my interest on this matter. I am the Chairman of the Potong Pasir Town Council. The Potong Pasir Town Council takes care of 5,840 units comprising flats, shops and stalls. The HDB flats are situated at Lorong 8 Toa Payoh and at Potong Pasir Estate. At Lorong 8 Toa Payoh, we have 13 residential blocks and one market block. And at Potong Pasir Estate, we have 45 residential blocks. The flats at Potong Pasir Estate are now due for their cyclical maintenance work. Due to a constraint of manpower, the Potong Pasir Town Council shall be carrying out these cyclical works in stages. It is proposed that maintenance work be done on 10 blocks first. Tenders will be called in April this year. Preliminary inquiries have shown that the cost of the cyclical works for these 10 blocks is much higher than the grant given by the Government.

In the budget debate last year, the Senior Minister of State for National Development said that the Government grant to the town councils should be enough for their cyclical maintenance works, and that the town councils need not dip into their own sinking funds for such works. I am afraid the situation has changed. The calculations of the Senior Minister were based on 1986 prices. It will be remembered that in 1986 the construction industry was at its doldrums. The industry was in fact not progressing well. Prices of materials, labour and other ancillary costs at that time were low. But now the situation has changed. Business in the construction industry has considerably picked up and costs have sharply risen. I have been told that prices of cement, steel and other building materials have increased sharply. Therefore, I would like the Minister to revise the rates upwards for grants towards the maintenance cyclical work. I believe other town councils have also made similar requests.

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, can I please request that my Senior Minister of State be allowed to reply right now because we are coming close to guillotine time, and would like to take the opportunity to reply to as many questions as possible.

The Chairman: But we have two other Members who have indicated that they want to speak. Mr Chng.

Mr Chng Hee Kok: Sir, I have two points to raise with the Minister.

Presently, members of town councils have similar functions as directors of companies. They have a fairly wide latitude in committing the town council to contracts, negotiating for services for the use of residents and setting up policy. In short, Sir, the work of town councillors has a much wider impact and affects many more lives than the shareholders of a company. Yet, Sir, a board director is governed by a set of rather sobering responsibilities and some rather onerous terms under the Companies Act. In my view, since the integrity and importance of town councils must always be maintained at a high level, I urge the Minister to consider tightening up the legislation on town councillors. I have in mind the law relating to limiting the power of town councillors' declaration of conflict of interest and profiteering in the work as town councillors.

The second point I have relates to the rules on the payment of allowance to town councillors. Since the work and scope of town councillors vary widely, I suggest that the Minister be more flexible in setting the limit on the allowance and also how it shall be paid.

Dr Ong Chit Chung (Bukit Batok): Sir, we are grateful to the Government for the provision of grants to the town councils. However, these grants are woefully inadequate. The cyclical work grant is based on 1986 prices. But all of us know that costs have risen sharply since then. Just take the case of repairs and redecorations for apartment blocks. Tender prices have jumped up by 175%.

Further, the cyclical work grant is based on a new 7-year cycle formula which was introduced recently, while most of the existing apartment blocks are painted with materials covering a 5-year period or cycle. Therefore, there is a shortfall of two years in grants by the Government.

Cyclical grants are also not given for 5-room apartment units and commercial units. But these units cannot be left out in repairs and redecorations.

I therefore appeal to the Government to reconsider the basis of the grants. Resources given, Sir, would benefit the bulk of Singaporeans who are residing in public housing estates. Let the Government and town councils work together to keep our estates clean and green.

The Senior Minister of State for National Development (Dr Lee Boon Yang): Sir, I will address a common theme which has been raised by several Members in moving this cut. This is the theme of seeking higher grants from the Government to help them to run the town councils.

Let me, first of all, assure Members that the financial package which was formulated and announced in the last budget was formulated with the objective of making it viable for town councils to operate. We want every town council to have a chance to succeed.

Sir, next I would like to reiterate the basic principle that we had adopted in working out a financial assistance package to town councils. This package comprised an operation grant to supplement town council's income from service and conservancy charges paid by the residents, and a cyclical works grant to meet the future cyclical works. Sir, the approach we took in working out the operating grants for town councils was to provide town councils with the same level of financing for estate management and maintenance as that provided to HDB. When we worked out the grant rates in 1988, we had the choice of using HDB's financial year 1986/87 or 1987/88 figures on routine maintenance and cyclical maintenance expenditure. The Government subsidy for HDB on these items was $49 million in financial year 1986/87 and $32 million in financial year 1987/88. There was a decrease during those two years of 35%. This decrease in Government subsidy was largely due to the improvement in the management and productivity gains within HDB. Sir, nonetheless we decided to choose the 1986/87 figure as a basis to work out the grants in order to provide town councils with a buffer against immediate cost increases when they take over the management of their estates.

In addition, we have also taken into account the different mix and the age of the flats in each town council. We recognise that older flats will cost more to maintain. This factor was taken into account in working out the operating grant. Therefore, older flats, those more than 12 years old, received a grant which is 40% more than flats that are newer, less than 8 years old. Therefore, with this financial assistance package, every town council, if it is carefully managed, if the resources are carefully husband, will have adequate financial means to carry out its functions effectively.

Members have now asked for more grants to carry out the cyclical works or to meet increased cost for service and conservancy work. I would like to explain our approach in dealing with this request. The request for more grants can broadly be classified into the following categories: (a) more grants for cyclical works; (b) more grants for improvement works; and (c) more grants for cost increase in estate management works.

First, more grants for cyclical works. Government had agreed to pay for the cyclical works for 1-room to 4-room flats for a 7-year period. Therefore, the rates were based on what is required under the cyclical works programme. Encik Ibrahim Othman from Bedok GRC has asked for additional grants to meet higher cost of carrying out this cyclical work. Several other Members have also taken this point up. I would like to point out that the 7-year cyclical works grant was given to town councils in two instalments. The first instalment is for the full first term of the town council. This means that the town councils stand to gain substantial interest from the upfront payment of work which will not be required for another three to four years. Prudent investment of this fund should generate additional income to meet inflationary cost increases.

Dr Ong Chit Chung says that the grant is insufficient to meet the new schedule of cyclical repair work, a new schedule which is based on a 7-year cycle instead of the old cycle. This applies only to certain items. For items such as repainting, I think he has a valid point there because the cyclical work programme was drawn up based on the standard in force in FY 86/87. Since then, HDB has upgraded its standard for certain cyclical works, including repainting. Where HDB is using more costly new materials which provide better service and last longer, for example, the use of new and more durable paint applied with more coatings and the use of ferro-cement slabs for re-roofing. The cyclical works grant for these items will be adjusted to take care of the increase in cost. Therefore, town councils will not lose out to estates which are still under HDB management. Town councils will get additional funds to carry out higher quality cyclical works during the initial 7-year period.

In addition, Sir, Government is prepared to provide grants to fund specific works which are not budgeted under the cyclical works programme. For example, Government will pay for the replacement of lift car cages and the changing of water tanks. Other items within this general category which are also being considered for additional funding include replacement of unlined galvanized iron water pipes, repair of spalling concrete and replacement of the main soil discharge stack.

Sir, the second category is more grants for improvement works. Dr Ho Tat Kin has asked for additional grants to provide the improvements in and about a town. For such works, town councils can apply to the Community Improvement Projects Committee (CIPC) for funding. This is a new Committee set up to take the place of the former URSC. Under this funding scheme, Government will pay between 50% and 90% of the project cost up to a limit of $1/2 million per project. Already the Committee has approved 16 such projects amounting to about a million dollars. More projects will be evaluated for funding. If Dr Ho has any plans for upgrading the amenities within his town, he is welcomed to apply to the CIPC.

Finally, Sir, more operational grants for cost increase related to estate management works. Mr Peh Chin Hua has brought up this point. He has also asked whether Government is prepared to increase the grant for estate management and maintenance work. Sir, the operating grant was generous to begin with. But of course over time there will be increase in estate management and maintenance cost. As wages go up, the cost of cleansing, rubbish removal and all the other works that have to be carried out day in day out in the town council will also go up. Recently, the shortage of workers has also caused added problems for town councils because town councils have to employ contractors with a large labour force to carry out estate maintenance work. My Ministry is aware of this problem and will be discussing with the Ministry of Labour to find some solution to the labour shortage problem.

Sir, Mr Peh has quite correctly pointed out that the current service and conservancy charges are hardly sufficient to meet expenses. Town councils are able to show a balanced budget or a budget in surplus because of the Government grant. Sir, the bottom line is that when cost of routine maintenance goes up due to normal cost increases, town councils are expected to adjust the service and conservancy charges accordingly to meet such increases. I am afraid that it will be contrary to the objective of handing over estate management to town councils if Government were to underwrite every cost increase.

Let us be clear that while grants can be given to overcome present low charges for service and conservancy, it is not the intention of Government to cushion residents from the inevitable cost increases in the future. Even if the town councils had not been formed, HDB in the course of time would have had to revise the service and conservancy charges. In fact, Sir, since last year HDB has been receiving from Government the same operating grant as that given to town councils. HDB is also experiencing difficulty in maintaining standards at the current rate of service and conservancy charges. HDB is studying the situation and is considering a revision of the charges for estates still under HDB management.

With the establishment of town councils, the increase of service and conservancy charges is no longer a centralized decision. If HDB revises its service and conservancy charges, town councils may find it necessary to do so too. But when to increase, how much to increase, how to spread out the increased cost, are questions which now every town council can decide for itself. These are questions which each town council must answer. Otherwise the present standard of service must drop. If the current low rate of service and conservancy charges is not amended, then the town council would not be able to maintain the standards. That is quite simple. In fact, it is the essence of self management, it is a responsibility which Members and their appointed councillors must discharge. Similarly, if residents' expectation goes up, and there is a demand for more and better services, town councils must satisfy these demands either through innovative or productive ways of doing things or they must consider increasing service and conservancy charges to pay for the improved services.

Sir, I will now take the other points which were raised by Members. Dr Koh Lip Lin has asked whether HDB will consult the town council over development of reserve sites within the town. Sir, let me point out that it takes many years to develop a new town, in some cases as long as 10 years, for example, Ang Mo Kio and Toa Payoh. The development of a new town cannot take place in one go. It takes place in steps, in phases. Hence, in every new town you will find parcels of land which are left vacant. These are the reserve sites. They are land belonging to the State. HDB manages the land on behalf of the Government. The future use of these reserve sites has in most instances been pre-determined for either residential, institutional, community or commercial uses. The ultimate development will be part and parcel of the new town. It will be in character with the rest of the new town. When new projects are proposed on these reserve sites, HDB will consider them in consultation with relevant planning authorities, including URA. I will ask HDB to keep town councils informed of new projects on these reserve sites as and when the developments are about to be finalised.

Dr Koh has also commented on the maintenance of reserve sites. Sir, the reserve sites in these new towns are turfed in the first place. They are regularly cut and if he has any knowledge of any reserve site which is unkempt and not properly maintained, please let me know. I will make sure that HDB discharges its responsibility fully.

Dr Koh asked whether reserve sites could be converted into recreational area, preferably funded by the Government. Sir, in planning these housing estates and new towns, HDB is always conscious of the need to provide recreational amenities for the residents. Hence, there are adequate open spaces in every HDB estate and new town. These open spaces include town garden, neighbourhood park, precinct garden, and in the case of new towns, sports and swimming complexes. There is no need to make additional provision over and above what has already been made available. Reserve sites are earmarked for future development, as I said earlier, for residential, schools or other commercial uses. These sites are turfed in the interim and residents are free to use the turfed area for their recreational needs, if they like to.

But if a town council is interested in developing additional recreational facility on the reserve site, then the town council should first write to my Ministry to find out what are the plans on the site, whether the piece of land will be available for interim use of about three to five years, or even more. If the land is not needed for immediate development, then my Ministry can consider proposals from town council to lease this land for development as interim recreational facilities. But since these are additional facilities over and above what HDB has already provided to the residents, I think the town council should be prepared to bear the cost of this development. Of course, if it is a project which the town council is very keen and feels that there is great merit, it can submit the proposal to the CIPC (Community Improvement Projects Committee) and seek support from Government for funding such projects. But the town council must remember that if it is only for a short period of time, after which the site will be needed for redevelopment, whatever investment that has been put into it will be lost. This is a decision which the council must decide.

Sir, Mr Peh Chin Hua has commented on the mandatory setting aside of 25% of the town council's collection of service and conservancy charges and Government operating grant towards the sinking funds to pay for future cyclical repair works. He is asking whether the 25% is too high and the Ministry can adopt a more flexible approach. This 25% is a requirement under the Town Councils Act. Town councils are still quite new. We do not have sufficient experience to have a better fix on the amount to be set aside for sinking funds. 25% is HDB's best estimate. If after some years we find that 25% is an over-estimate, we can adjust. But for the time being, to reduce this saving level will jeopardise the availability of funds for cyclical works in the future.

Sir, in such matters as future requirements, and because cyclical works are spread over a long period of time, I think it is always better to be conservative in making estimates. I think it is better to err on the generous side than to stinge on money which has to be set aside for future needs. We should avoid a situation where today's residents are living well at the expense of future residents or cut down on savings until cyclical repair work funds are dangerously low.

Dr Ho Tat Kin has asked whether the interest income of town councils can be made tax exempt. The Ministry of Finance has ruled that operating incomes of town councils, that is, the collection from the service and conservancy charges and from Government grant, can be exempted from income tax. But investment incomes, including interest earned on funds invested, will be subjected to tax. Sir, this is no different from other non-profit, non-charitable organisations. They are also subjected to the same general taxation rules.

Dr Ho also asked whether his town council will be required to return savings on the cyclical works grant for items such as CATV because he may not need to replace them at an interval that was prescribed. The cyclical works grant has been paid to town councils. We have left it to the town council to decide. If you are able to save on the grant, then you can keep the grant for future use. There is no requirement for you to reimburse the Government for cyclical works grant that you have not used. In fact, it is left to the town council to decide. If you choose not to paint the block of flats at all, you can still keep the money in the sinking funds. What is stipulated in the Act is that whatever fund that has gone into the sinking funds can only be used for certain items of work that is related to cyclical works. If you choose not to paint your flats, not to do this cyclical work, and if the residents are prepared to live with it, then keep the money in the sinking funds. But you are not allowed to use that money for other purposes.

I think I have addressed Mr Chiam's point on more grants in my earlier statement.

Mr Chng Hee Kok has asked whether the requirements on councillors to declare their interest can be tightened up. Under the Town Councils Act, Sir, section 15 stipulates that every town councillor must declare his interest. In other words, a town councillor who has an interest in a transaction or a project being considered by the town council should disclose the nature of his interest at the meeting of the town council. This disclosure shall be recorded in the minutes of the town council and the member shall take no part in the discussion concerning the project. If there is a need for other liabilities to be imposed on councillors, we prefer to leave it entirely to the Chairman of the council to impose this liability. It is up to the Chairman to discipline his councillors.

On the other question raised by Mr Chng about the level of allowances, at present, my Ministry prescribes a level of allowance for the Chairman, Vice-Chairman and other members of the town council. This is the maximum amount that a town council can pay. But it is left to the council to decide whether they want to pay less. They are free to decide if they choose to pay less to their councillors. Whether they should be paid more or not, I think we can consider that at a later stage. Right now, when Members are requesting for more grants because they are unable to balance their budget, it seems contradictory to prescribe a higher rate of allowances to be paid to councillors. 3.25 pm

The Chairman: Order. It is guillotine time. Encik Ibrahim.

Encik Ibrahim Othman: Sir, I thank the Senior Minister of State for the explanation. But I only hope that he could err on the generous side and give us more grant. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $306,981,040 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $2,808,273,500 for Head T ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head L -

The Chairman: Head L - Ministry of Education. Amendment No. (1), Dr Tan Cheng Bock.

Dr Tan Cheng Bock (Ayer Rajah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head L of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

I move this amendment to express my GPC's support for the upgrading and expansion of the universities and polytechnic education.

My GPC supports the establishment of two strong comprehensive universities - the National University of Singapore and the Nanyang Technological University - with the two universities competing and offering many subjects on their respective campuses.

The demand for university places has always been hotly debated in this House. And only last year, many of us in this House were clamouring for expansion of our tertiary institutions. Do we need more graduates? There are strong signals that more graduates are needed. One such signal comes from the MNCs. In the recent National Marketing Workshop in August 1988, the MNCs expressed concern over the shortage of graduate quality personnel in Singapore. The MNCs found that the commanding pay for graduates in managerial positions in Singapore is higher than in Australia and New Zealand. A second and more important signal comes from the not-too-distant future when Singapore is likely to thrust into the brain-intensive and related industries which will demand more for the better educated graduates. We in the GPC are therefore pleased that the Government has addressed this question of access to university education.

The demand for better graduates must surely mean the restructuring of some of our faculties and the introduction of new courses. In this respect, I note that the NUS will be introducing new undergraduate courses in Mass Communications and European Studies in the Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences and the establishment of three post-graduate institutes - an Institute of Micro-Electronics to undertake engineering research relevant to the critical needs of Singapore's micro-electronic industry; a Clinical Research Centre in the Faculty of Medicine to complement the Institute of Molecular and Cell Biology at the National University Hospital, and also a Centre for Advanced Legal Studies in the Law Faculty, to put the Faculty in the forefront of legal research.

The undergraduate programme in NUS/NTI is typically a three-year degree course with an additional year for Honours student. With this upgrading, our very good students can be stretched in their fields of study. One way is to allow further specialisation of post-graduate work, as already mentioned; another is to channel outstanding students into the direct Honours programme where they will obtain their degrees at the end of the third year. This has also been done. However, there is yet another way which the universities can look into, and that is, to allow the very good students to major in two fields, such as Economics and Law, or Science and Engineering. They can then be awarded a double degree. A number of overseas universities do in fact offer the double degree programme. In our local university, we force our able students who are equally strong in two disciplines to choose only one for specialisation. This is not necessary and implies some loss of talent. Instead of gaining a graduate versatile in two disciplines, we have a graduate who is specialised in only one.

Sir, we must produce versatile graduates because in many decision-making situations, there has been growing appreciation of a multi-disciplinary approach to the resolution of issues. There is hence a strong likelihood that a graduate of a double degree will be much sought after in the future.

Sir, a discussion on tertiary education is never complete without mentioning the criteria of entry. Much debate was generated in 1988 when the Estimates Committee under the chairmanship of Mr Goh Chee Wee called for a review of the NUS entry rules. He did not get much support from the Ministry nor NUS. But his call did not turn to deaf ears. This time he is lucky. His Committee's view is shared by Lord Dainton who has called for the criteria used to select students to enter the universities to be carefully examined and I quote him from page 1 of his report:

'This scrutiny should include:

(a) a thorough study of the predictive power of the examinations taken at school-leaving for future performance in higher education.'

Perhaps I should refer you to page 4 of the report by Lord Dainton to make it clearer. I quote:

'There are other reasons why existing admission procedures warrant closer investigation. In the first place, in many comparable contemporary societies there has been considerable work showing that performance in 'A' level subject examinations is a far from perfect predictor of the class of degree ultimately awarded in the same or cognate subjects, especially for those pupils scoring middle grades which is where the "cut-off" point for admission to Singaporean universities seems to be located. There are good reasons why this should be so which are connected with the nature of the development of young people in the 17-21 year age range, the variability in quality and effectiveness of school teachers and other factors.' He further advised:

'(b) an investigation of the utility of interviews, aptitude and motivational tests and school-constructed "profiles" and assessments of potential in providing valuable supplementary criteria for selection of students.'

And to give added value to Mr Goh Chee Wee's Committee's call for review of entry requirement, he has also suggested and I quote him again:

'Consideration should be given to admitting university studies mature individuals who would profit from higher education but who for personal, financial or other valid reason were unable to enter on leaving school.'

Sir, Mr Goh - he is not around - can feel consoled that, not being a Minister, he has already two suggestions to his credit. Lord Dainton's report has yet to be approved by Cabinet. If accepted - and I think it probably will, as getting Angmohs to advise us is getting fashionable - I wonder what our NUS Vice-Chancellor, Lim Pin, will have to say about using examination results as the sole criterion of entry. However, I personally feel that there should be no lowering of standards. We must maintain standards comparable to that of the British redbrick or good British provincial universities.

With the recent announcement of the expansion and upgrading of the universities, I hope it will not be read wrongly by parents that polytechnic education is less fashionable. Through their ignorance, parents do their children no good by sending them to university when they are better suited for the polytechnics. As parents, we must know whether our children have the ability or the aptitude for what kind of tertiary education. We all want the best for our children. But a university education may not necessarily be the best option for our children. Parents have to take advantage of the opportunities in the economy of Singapore when helping their children to decide so that their children will get the best in salary, perks and satisfaction. It is a fact that many have earned higher incomes with a polytechnic diploma besides making a bigger contribution to the economy. I therefore welcome the setting up of a third polytechnic.

Polytechnics have an invaluable role to play and great care should be taken to strike a right balance in post-secondary education between diploma and degree level work, as work requiring degree graduates usually need the support for well trained and skilled supporting staff. This I quote from Lord Dainton.

With that, Mr Speaker, Sir, I will now let my GPC Members and the other colleagues to bring up other educational matters.

Encik Abbas Abu Amin (Pasir Panjang GRC): Mr Speaker, Sir, I fully share the views eloquently expressed by the hon. Member for Ayer Rajah on the upgrading and expansion of university and polytechnic education. I would like to get clarification from the Minister on three areas of concern to both parents and students regarding this expansion.

First, will we be over producing graduates suddenly from the three polytechnics and two universities? Will there be sufficient jobs readily available for these graduates?

Second, with the expansion programmes announced for tertiary institutions, will we have enough experienced teaching staff to cope with the increase in the student intake? And will the standard of teaching be adversely affected in other tertiary education?

Finally, will there be part-time courses available for our young and energetic workers? Will workers with basic academic qualifications be given opportunities to attend suitable part-time courses to further upgrade their knowledge and skills and attain higher vocational or professional qualifications?

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Mr Speaker, Sir, the proposal to initiate a degree course for 'A' level holders which will equip them to become primary school teachers is both timely and laudable. It will not only serve to enhance the professional status of teachers but also attract into the teaching profession bright young people who want both to have a university degree and to teach in primary school. This move will also allow serving non-graduate teachers the opportunity to acquire a degree and will enhance the career prospects of serving officers.

The Ministry of Education is adopting a very bold plan in its efforts to upgrade the quality of teacher-training. It must ensure that when this is implemented, optimal results are achieved with minimal wastage, especially now that the training course for primary school teachers will be a 4-year degree course. Then benefits can be more quickly realised and seen in our schools.

To begin with, the people who choose to enter the profession must be carefully selected. It must be recognised that the teaching profession has unique requirements and that the ultimate test of a good teacher is what he can do when left alone and on his own, in front of a classroom of pupils. Can he communicate in such fashion as to get his pupils to think, to react and to contribute to the lesson? Can he get students to 'discover' things for themselves and to become 'thinking' and 'feeling' individuals? At primary school level, all this is even more difficult because he is dealing with very young children. So, in addition to good communication skills, the selection process must take into account the aptitude and attitude of the candidates. The primary school teacher must love to be with and to take care of little children. This is absolutely essential.

A selection procedure based on an interview alone is inadequate. Surely one cannot accurately assess a person's ability to be a good teacher purely on an oral interview. What is required, I believe, is more substantial evidence of a person's ability to handle real pupils in the context of the classroom. I would like to propose that an internship scheme of at least six months' duration be introduced in the first part of all our teacher-training courses. During this period, the novice teacher would be closely supervised by an experienced teacher. I am aware that at present, those in the Certificate-in-Education programme, for example, undergo 10 weeks of teaching practice per year in their 2-year course. I think that this teaching practice segment of our teacher-training courses should be perfected into a proper internship scheme.

Such a scheme will also serve as a useful early warning system. We will not have to waste a great deal of money to pay a person and train him, only to see him resign from the service in frustration after he is posted to a school because he finds he is not cut out to be a teacher. The six months in school will give the student-teacher a flavour of what the life of a teacher is like, and allow him the opportunity to decide whether that is what he wants for himself. It will also allow for an assessment of his teaching abilities so that at the end of the internship, it will then be decided whether he should or should not proceed with the course.

I must also put in a word for the many serving non-graduate teachers in both our primary and secondary schools who are anxious to know how they will benefit from the proposed degree programme. I must urge the Ministry of Education to allow as many serving non-graduate teachers as possible, who have the ability and qualifications, to join the degree programme and attain graduate status. Those who have proven their worth in the service more than deserve the opportunity to further themselves. This incentive will no doubt serve as a catalyst that will motivate them to excel further.

Dr Aline K. Wong (Tampines GRC): Sir, I welcome the Government's decision to set up a full-fledged second university and a third polytechnic. I think this will go a long way towards meeting the demand of the population for more access to tertiary level education.

With regard to the two universities, I wish to seek the Minister's clarification on a few points and perhaps to impress upon him some of my views. Firstly, while I agree that Singapore needs a second university, my concern is whether this sudden increase in student intake would lead to a decline in standards. The Government has long maintained that university admission standards cannot be compromised. And that in the past, one constraint in expanding the number of places available was the finite number of students with the required entry qualifications. Although the Minister had taken pains to explain at a press conference recently that now we have the critical mass of qualified students to form the base of two full-fledged universities, yet in my own personal experience as a lecturer, students who just meet the minimum admission criteria, particularly those falling within the band of the previous cut-off points, are not necessarily well-equipped for university education. They do not have the analytical or critical thinking ability which is the hallmark of a good university student. And even now the standard of written English among some students still leaves some room for improvement, in fact, something to be desired. I really think, therefore, that we should be cautious and not be too rushed into expanding student intake at the two universities too suddenly and over too short a period of time. Take a bit longer time before you expand both to their full strengths.

My second point is that the universities are supposed to be engaged in friendly competition for students, for staff, for current and capital grants, research grants and links with industries and services. My question to the Minister is this: how is this friendly competition to be carried out? At the beginning, I think NTU will suffer from a historical disadvantage because NUS is a much longer established university. Thus, the better students and better academic staff would naturally gravitate towards NUS. We do not want to see a replay of the Nanyang University scenario where, unfortunately, the Nanyang University graduates were not as well recognised as the Singapore University graduates by the members of society. So the question is, to what extent should there be friendly competition, to what extent should there be a division of labour between the two universities so that each of them can specialise in certain areas, attracting different kinds of students and different kinds of staff?

Thirdly, to compete for good quality teaching and research staff is not easy. Not only because the pool of talents we have in Singapore is limited, but also because at this particular juncture in time we are competing with other major universities in the world. In the United States, for example, the post World War II baby boomers had caused a tremendous expansion of universities in the 1950s and 1960s followed by a contraction in the 1970s after this crop of students had finished college. But now the late 1980s have seen a reverse trend. This is because American universities are taking more and more mature students who are returning to college. In this sense we will be competing for good academic staff with these universities which are also expanding in the early 1990s. Of course, we can look to other sources, for example, UK. But we also realise that the good British academics are either staying at their own universities or going over to Canada, the United States and Australia. So with two universities, I think our problem of recruiting good, qualified staff will be exacerbated. So my question to the Minister is, what kind of plans does he have for the two universities to recruit good academic staff?

Fourthly, with the shelving of the idea of a third University, I wonder if the Minister would still consider a national academy or a school of performing arts at either the National University of Singapore or the NTU. It is to be noted that the proposed National Institute of Education (NIE) will have courses in the performing and visual arts. NIE is going to be linked with NTU. However, such courses are mainly for the training of primary and secondary school teachers and this is not the same as having a separate school of performing arts where talented students can study for a degree in these subjects for their own interest.

Let me come to the third polytechnic. It is a very welcomed addition. It will help to increase the number of skilled manpower for the needs of our industries and services. I particularly like the idea of having a school of design. This idea has been presented to the Government by people in the private sector for a number of years and finally the Government is adopting it and I really welcome it. What I wish to bring out is the need for a school at the polytechnic to train the necessary supportive staff for the health care services.

While the GPC would be urging the Minister for Health to look urgently for solutions to this problem of shortage of supportive staff in the health care services, I think a long term solution is to have a school of allied health sciences at the third polytechnic. In future, we should even think of having such courses at the university level. The allied health sciences include not only various branches of therapy but also radiography, nursing, social work, dietetics, biomedical technology and so on. If we recognise that all these disciplines have an inter-related knowledge base, and that we are faced not just with the shortage of therapists, then perhaps we have a much broader perspective and a broader basis for setting up a school of allied health sciences. This is to meet the long term needs of our ageing population for rehabilitation, especially after a serious illness, the needs of the younger population for rehabilitation from sports injuries as well as the general needs for nursing, and for technical manpower to maintain modern medicine's laboratories and equipment. With this, I would like to seek the Minister's responses to these concerns.

The Minister for Education (Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam): Sir, let me first thank the Chairman of the GPC on Education, Dr Tan Cheng Bock, and his colleagues, Encik Abu Abbas, Mr Lawrence Sia and Dr Aline Wong, for their valuable comments on university education in Singapore. With your permission, Sir, I will deal with the points which they have raised subsequently, but with your indulgence I would like to make a general statement first.

Sir, last month, in February, my Ministry made public two Reports - the first report from Lord Dainton concerning the expansion of university education in Singapore, and the second report from the Committee chaired by my Minister of State, Dr Seet Ai Mee, set up to examine key issues in teacher training in the 1990s.

Following the release of the two reports, the National University of Singapore (NUS) and the Nanyang Technological Institute (NTI) held press conferences to give their responses to the reports. The reports and the press conferences have been extensively reported in the press. Copies of the press releases and the reports have, I believe, also been made available to Members.

Sir, I will therefore not go into the details. I will only summarise the recommendations in the report and then the actions which the Ministry will be taking with respect to these recommendations.

Sir, to recapitulate, Lord Dainton's major recommendation was that, in the light of the changed circumstances since his first report in 1979, Singapore should now seek to build two strong comprehensive universities - the National University of Singapore and the Nanyang Technological University (NTU) - with the two universities competing and offering many subjects on their respective campuses. In addition, Lord Dainton also recommended the introduction of degree-level training for primary school teachers and the merger of the Institute of Education (IE) and the College of Physical Education (CPE) to form a single institution which should be linked to a university and offer degree courses in education, physical education and the performing and visual arts.

The Committee, set up under the chairmanship of Dr Seet Ai Mee, agreed with Lord Dainton that the IE and the CPE should be merged to form the National Institute of Education (NIE) which in their view should have its own board of directors and be an institute or faculty of the Nanyang Technological University.

In addition, the Committee recommended the following four recommendations:

(1) The current Certificate-in-Education (Cert Ed) course be upgraded and be renamed the Diploma-in-Education (Dip Ed) which will be awarded, as at present, at the end of two years of study;

(2) The current one-year Diploma-in-Education course to train graduates to teach in secondary schools be upgraded and renamed the Postgraduate Diploma-in-Education;

(3) A new one-year course, the Postgraduate Diploma-in-Education (Primary), be started to train graduates to teach in primary schools; and

(4) A new four-year degree programme to train 'A' level holders for primary school teaching be introduced.

The Committee suggested that the NIE and the new four-year degree programme should be implemented with effect from the academic year 1991/1992, ie, next year, while the other recommendations should apply to those admitted from this academic year 1990/1991.

Sir, I am happy that these recommendations have been well received by the public and have enjoyed the support of Members. I am pleased to inform Members that the recommendations have been approved by Cabinet. The Ministry, together with the relevant institutions, are now taking active steps to implement the recommendations.

Sir, the most urgent task is the establishment of the NIE and the development of NTU into a comprehensive university. Towards this end, Sir, NTI has, with the support and assistance of the Ministry, been in active discussion with two institutions: First, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) for assistance in accelerating and enhancing the development of NTI academic activities in the field of business management and, second, the Loughborough University of Technology for assistance in the recruitment and secondment of staff, development of courses and validation of degrees and diplomas in the areas of education, physical education, arts and science.

Sir, these discussions are going on well and, barring unforeseen circumstances, NTI expects to be able to sign agreements with MIT and the Loughborough University of Technology sometime in the second half of this year so that the collaboration programmes can get off the ground.

Sir, Members in this House have, from time to time, urged the Government to increase the number of university places in Singapore in response to requests from parents. Sir, the Ministry has not been unmindful of Members' requests. But the principle which we have followed with regard to the expansion of university places is that any expansion in university places should only be done if there is no danger of lowering academic standards. In this respect, Sir, I would fully concur with the sentiments of the Member, Dr Aline Wong, in that we should not seek to increase student numbers too rapidly at the expense of lower standards. As an academic in the NUS, Sir, I would urge her to use all her influence with her colleagues in the NUS to ensure that this is done.

Sir, the maintenance of academic standards is a sound principle. It ensures that the degrees awarded by our universities are good value, accepted by employers and recognised internationally. We would do well to continue to adhere to this principle when we consider future increases in undergraduate enrolment in Singapore.

Sir, the Member for Ayer Rajah, Dr Tan Cheng Bock, has brought up the point in the Dainton's Report regarding the criteria used to select students and that perhaps we could exercise some flexibility with regard to these criteria rather than to rely entirely on 'A' level results.

Sir, the NUS and NTI have made a detailed study of this matter. They have found that for courses in Science and in Engineering particularly, the 'A' level results are reasonably good predictors of university performance, perhaps less so in the Arts and the Social Science. The Vice-Chancellor of the National University of Singapore has already said that with regard to admissions in Arts and Social Science and perhaps in one or two other disciplines, particularly with respect to students who are on the borderline, as it were, their performance at interviews will be taken into account. In any case, Sir, for subjects like Law, for example, in addition to the "A" level results, students have to sit for a written paper and also have to be interviewed by the Law Faculty. But I do not think it will be possible for the university to interview every applicant to decide whether he or she is suitable material for the university.

Sir, Dr Tan Cheng Bock and Encik Abbas have also brought up the matter about giving greater opportunities for mature students and part-time students to study in NUS or NTI. The position at present is that with the pressure for places in the university, priority has to be given to those who have just left school or junior college. However, with the expansion of NTU, we might be in a position to make some opportunities available for mature students and for students, for example, from the polytechnics who have been working in the economy for a number of years. NUS and NTI will be looking into this matter.

Sir, the recommendation from Dr Tan Cheng Bock about allowing good students to major in two fields, I will refer this suggestion to NUS for their further study.

Then the comment from Dr Aline Wong with regard to competition between NUS and NTU and how this can be managed. Of course, NUS has an advantage. It is an older university, it is well established, and being the first in the field it must have an advantage. This is why, Sir, we had taken such a long time before coming to these recommendations.

The review on higher education in Singapore actually started in September 1988 and we had taken more than 15 months before finalising these recommendations. It will be difficult for NTI to compete with NUS in the first few years. But I believe, Sir, that with the support of the Government and members, the task is not impossible. NTI has made a very good start now in linking up with prestigious overseas universities for assistance in recruitment of staff and developing courses which will not simply be duplicates of similar courses in NUS.

One example, Sir, where NTI has been able to compete effectively with NUS is in the field of engineering. In the case of engineering, the course in NUS is more research-oriented, perhaps slightly more academic. In the case of NTI, the course is well known to be more practice-oriented and to have a closer link with industry. I can say that the graduates from the NTI Engineering School have no difficulty in getting jobs. In fact, the last survey of employment made by NUS and NTI shows that the starting salaries of graduates from the NTI Engineering School are slightly ahead of the starting salaries of those from the NUS Engineering School. This is because the nature of their course is that they have much more interaction with potential employers during their four years of study in NTI, and employers perhaps find them more immediately useful.

Similarly, Sir, in business management, NTI has got a School of Accountancy which is not available in NUS. The two Schools of Business Management, I believe, will develop in slightly different paths with perhaps the NUS concentrating more on general management and the NTI being stronger in the field of management in industry, in manufacturing, and also in financial services. So there will be scope for the two institutions to develop their particular specialties. It will not be an easy task, but we have a good group of administrators at NTI. They have the goodwill of NUS, and I think of all of us, and given encouragement and support, they will succeed.

Sir, there are a number of other points regarding the polytechnics, the teachers, and the Academy of Performing Arts which will be answered by my Senior Minister of State and my Minister of State.

I would just like to add, Sir, one general point, that, is, in 1979 when Lord Dainton made his first report on university education in Singapore, he was of the view that Singapore at that time could only sustain one strong university of good academic standards. Sir, it is a matter of satisfaction to us that on his visit last year, and after reviewing the progress which we have made in education in the last 10 years, Lord Dainton was able to come to the conclusion, quite independently, that Singapore now has the intellectual base and a sufficient number of able students to sustain two large comprehensive universities without any lowering of standards. This conclusion by an experienced educationist, like Lord Dainton, whatever be his race, sums up in a nutshell much of what we are trying to do in education in the last 10 years.

Sir, a lot of work will need to be done to translate the above recommendations into reality. No doubt, difficulties will be encountered and perhaps some mistakes will be made but overall, I am confident that we have now set a clear direction on how university education should be expanded in Singapore in the 1990s. Much obliged, Sir.

The Senior Minister of State for Education (Dr Tay Eng Soon): Sir, I would like to respond to the Members who mentioned the polytechnics during their speeches and I would also want to take this opportunity to update Members of the House on developments related particularly to the Temasek Polytechnic, the third polytechnic.

Sir, last year the Ministry of Education did a very thorough review of tertiary education requirements for Singapore, and this involved not only the universities but also the polytechnics. We recognise that the country has progressed and benefited from the people who have received tertiary level education and the polytechnics themselves have made a major contribution. Over the last 25 years, in fact more than 50,000 polytechnic graduates were produced and these were the persons who helped in the industrialisation of Singapore and aided Singapore's economic development. 50,000 members is a small army of people, in fact it is equivalent to five military divisions.

Sir, in this review we set up a Working Committee to look into whether the polytechnics should be expanded and, if so, in which direction. The Committee had two tasks. Firstly, to look into the further needs of our economy into the future for polytechnic level of manpower and to make sure that there is such a requirement on the part of employers and the economy. And secondly, to determine whether there is a sizeable pool of students and school leavers who could benefit from polytechnic education. During their review they looked at overseas examples and, in particular, they examined the German/Swiss system. As we know, the German/Swiss system emphasises not only university education but also technical and vocational education to a high level. All of us know that these two countries have an excellent workforce producing manufactured goods and services of the best quality in the world.

The Working Committee recommended that the polytechnic level of education should be expanded and, in particular, they recommended that a third poly- technic be set up. They also recommended that the total intake into the three polytechnics should go up from the present 8,000 a year to 10,000. Sir, 10,000 a year is about 25% of a primary 1 cohort, that is, one in four of our future primary 1 cohorts will have an opportunity to go to polytechnic.

In the case of Temasek Polytechnic, the recommendation was that it should be an institution that will take in 3,000 students each year, having a total enrolment of 9,000. In its courses, the recommendation was that the Temasek Polytechnic should start off with courses in technology, design and in business, but it should keep itself open for future courses. In this respect, the point made by Dr Aline Wong was recognised by the Working Committee that the need in the future may be for more people in the health sciences, not just in nursing but also in therapy areas, in radiography, radiology, and so on.

For the moment the Temasek Polytechnic is concentrating on the schools of technology, design and business. But once these schools have been established, it will look into the feasibility of starting courses in the allied health sciences. One point that has been noted is that there has to be a contact with hospitals and for the training of this type of people. That is one factor that has to be taken into account because on the eastern side of Singapore, there are hardly any major hospitals for the polytechnic to work with. Nevertheless, the subject will be kept very much in view.

Sir, as Members know, the Temasek Polytechnic Bill is now going through Parliament and once that has been approved by Parliament, work will start on the development of the polytechnic at the Bedok Reservoir site. It will take three to four years, at which point we shall have a very good tertiary institution on the eastern side of Singapore. But the polytechnic will begin to take in students from this year operating at temporary premises. It plans to take in 525 students into two campuses - one at the Raffles Institution, Grange Road campus, when Raffles Institution moves out by the middle of this year to their new site and, secondly, at the Baharuddin Vocational Institute campus.

Dr Tan Cheng Bock mentioned the anxiety that perhaps with the expansion of the NUS and NTU and the plans which were announced recently, students might be strongly drawn to the university and fewer students may choose to go into the polytechnic courses and that all our projections may turn out to be incorrect.

Sir, I am happy to inform him that the demand indication by students based on their first choice has been very encouraging. Last year, based on first choice of students after "0" levels, 12,300 opted for 8,000 places at the polytechnics. Of course those who were not successful went into other courses. But this year, based on preliminary results of the Joint-Admission exercise, there are 16,000 students who have opted as first choice for the polytechnics competing for 8,700 places. I have asked the three polytechnics - Singapore, Ngee Ann and Temasek Polytechnics - to look into their intake to see whether they could stretch their resources a little further to accommodate this very large number of students who wish to go for polytechnic education. They are doing that at the moment. But I am also quite confident that for those who cannot get into the polytechnics, there are many other channels, for example, SHATEC, the EDB training centres, VITB itself and its higher level courses, Pre-U centres, and so on which will accept these people.

Dr Hong Hai (Bedok GRC): Mr Chairman, Sir, the plight of English-educated Chinese Singaporeans with regard to their mother tongues is often brought up in the presence of foreigners. I recall that when my friends and I were students overseas and we spoke to one another in English in restaurants or in social functions, we were often a curiosity to Western bystanders. On one occasion, an Englishman asked, "Can you not speak your own language?" One of us replied that English was our first language. The Englishman said, "But that's our mother tongue."

Sir, the Englishman's remark may seem frivolous or even bigoted. But a Chinese Singaporean who cannot hold a serious conversation in his mother tongue suffers a certain loss of ethnic pride or self-esteem and an alienation from his cultural roots. Over the long term, this rootlessness has far-reaching implications for our ability to come together as a nation. I therefore have little sympathy for complaints against the educational system for requiring a basic competence among our students in their mother tongue. My reservation however is, first, how this is being done; secondly, whether too much of the task has been left to the Ministry of Education.

Sir, it is well known that Chinese as a second language is the bane of many parents whose children find it a burden and an imposition, a necessary evil, something to do in order to enter junior college or university. Some even carry psychological scars of coping with the language. A Straits Times journalist, Sumiko Tan, wrote not so long ago how as an adult he still wakes up at night perspiring and frightened from recurring nightmares of not getting through her Mandarin examination in school. Sir, I would like to suggest to the Minister for Education that greater emphasis be placed on making the process of learning the second language a pleasure and a delight. I recall that as a child, I enjoyed reading simplified versions of Chinese classics such as the Water Margin, Three Kingdoms and so on. I was told by a former MP, Maj. Fong Sip Chee, who has some knowledge of the subject, that Mandarin has been taught in our schools like a foreign language rather than as a mother tongue. The emphasis has been on correct pronunciation, vocabulary and memorisation of idioms. Less emphasis has apparently been placed on enjoying the literature and the rich traditions contained therein.

Sir, I would submit that we can afford to have a slight reduction in the standard of technical competence in the language by our students and instead increase their knowledge of the literature. In my view, more is to be gained by students of Chinese who appreciate the history behind the idioms than in their rote memorisation to pass examinations.

Sir, I would also like to suggest that other Ministries like MCI and MCD support the Ministry of Education to create better receptivity to learning the language. Singaporeans like to emulate people whom they respect. They do not like to be pushed from behind. I urge our Government to organise programmes that would persuade executives and professionals to take an interest in their mother tongue and culture. If notable business leaders and professionals were known to be well versed in traditional literature and culture and if such knowledge and the ability to hold a conversation in respectable Mandarin was the hallmark of a cultivated man, it would go a long way to motivating parents and children alike to acquire a taste for the language.

Dr Arthur Beng Kian Lam (Fengshan): Mr Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I would like to take both cuts together.

Sir, in March 1987, the Minister for Education announced that the Government had decided to introduce the single-session school in all schools beginning with the secondary schools. To implement this, the Minister announced that an additional 50 schools over and above the 25 new schools then under construction needed to be built. We were told that "barring mishaps", all students can look to entering single-session schools when they enrol for Secondary 1 in 1994.

Sir, may I first ask the Minister whether we are on schedule regarding the implementation of single-session schools. I raise this issue as all parents are anxious to have the "best education" for their children. After much study dating back to 1981 when full-day schools were first conceived, the Ministry is convinced of the advantages. So are parents, and parents are now asking themselves whether their children will have the benefit of single-session schools. Some parents are even planning to send their children overseas for studies at secondary school level, because they want to give their children the best that they can afford, ie, if they see our local system as lacking. With growing affluence, and the small family, this trend may grow.

Sir, although these numbers are small now, it is still a cause for concern, as the dislocation from family and nation at such an early age may adversely affect us as a nation and society in the long term. How will the boys integrate back into the society, especially military service, if they have been away from five to maybe 10 years? Will this result in emigration? We must nip in the bud this newly developing trend of sending children away for secondary education. Parents have many and varied reasons for this and some valid reasons. Perhaps the Minister may like to comment on this or study the problem further. I personally am concerned.

Sir, I hope that the Minister will not only inform the House that the implementation of single-session schools is on schedule, but if possible to accelerate the programme. Furthermore, I hope that the diversion of the Ministry's resources to independent schools will not slow down the implementation of single-session schools. Both in my view are complementary, ie, single-session schools and independent schools are needed and we should press on with both with urgency.

Finally, Sir, when full-day schools were announced in 1981, the pilot project included two primary schools in addition to three secondary schools. What is the Ministry's thinking now regarding single-session school for primary schools? Are there plans to extend single-session school on a wider scale to primary schools in the near future?

Dr Ong Chit Chung: Sir, I share the sentiments of my colleague, Dr Arthur Beng, on single-session schools. May I ask if the Ministry would speed up and extend this programme so that more students throughout the island would benefit from the single-session programme? I believe that the single-session programme is a key to improvement in our educational system. Students would have time in schools for remedial and enrichment classes. Parents would be glad that their children are gainfully occupied in schools throughout the day and not loitering outside. May I also ask if the single-session programme will lead to better teacher-student ratio in classrooms and whether any thoughts are being given to new methods of teaching appropriate to the single-session programme?

The Minister of State for Education (Dr Seet Ai Mee): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to thank the Member for Moulmein for his support for the degree course for primary school teachers. In his words, "it is a bold plan" . But with the support of himself, at the teachers, and the nation of Singapore in general, we can plan to succeed.

Sir, the Member for Moulmein has expressed concern that paper qualifications should not be the sole criterion for candidate selection for the degree course, and that attitudes and other attributes must be considered. The Ministry agrees with Mr Sia and for this reason, the Institute of Education is looking into the introduction of training aptitude tests in addition to conducting interviews to assess the suitability of applicants for teacher training.

Sir, when in the UK, my study team and I discussed the usefulness of the early attachment as a means of selection with several teacher training institutions. We were told that it had helped some trainees to make up their minds about being teachers. However, it was also found that the beginning trainees were too inexperienced to handle classroom situations, and this had adversely affected some. It was felt that, if they had some training and preparation before training attachments, the trauma would be lessened. In some universities, schemes with a few weeks' attachments in the first six months of training have been introduced. Their initial findings were encouraging.

Sir, following from my Minister's statement on the new NTU and NIE, it is evident that the whole scenario of teacher training will be undergoing a qualitative and a quantitative change in the next five years. The IE is presently working out the detailed course structure of the degree and other programmes and will take into consideration Mr Sia's suggestion for early practical attachment of teacher trainees in its preparation.

Sir, with reference to Mr Sia's concern for serving non-graduate teachers, my committee has recommended that the Ministry of Education should consider favourably applications from serving teachers who have the necessary qualifica- tions and ability to obtain a degree, and that these applications should be supported for entry into the degree programme. We agree with the principle that the proven, faithful and good should be given a chance.

Sir, I refer to Dr Aline Wong's suggestion for a School of Performing Arts. My Minister has just told the House of the formation of the National Institute of Education which is to be an independent institute of the Nanyang Technological University. The NIE will herald a new era in teacher training. Existing programmes will be upgraded and a new degree programme for primary teaching will be introduced. Understandably, NIE's most urgent task in the next five years or so would be in consolidating IE and CPE's respective strengths in education and physical education as well as to develop greater expertise and academic depth in the arts and the sciences. Only then will the teacher training and academic programmes offered be held in high regard, an issue which Dr Aline Wong was very concerned about.

Besides these programmes, the IE/CPE Development Committee which I chaired has suggested that the NIE should develop IE's strength in the expressive arts. It is envisaged that these departments in the expressive arts will be the embryos from which will develop a school of aesthetic arts of the NTU, a school which will train not only teachers of the visual and performing arts, but also performers and practitioners of the expressive arts. However, I wish to request the Member for Tampines GRC and all aesthetically-inclined Members of this House to exercise some patience. NIE and its expressive arts department need to be carefully nurtured. Like an infant, NIE needs to move forward slowly, one step at a time. Please allow NIE to first establish strong foundations in education - physical education, the arts and the sciences. When these are in place and the NIE is on firm ground, it would then be in a position to focus its energy on the building up of a school of aesthetics.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Dr Tony Tan Keng Yam: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1990/91, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Speaker: So be it.