ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1992 TO 31ST MARCH, 1993

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [7th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head I (cont.) --

Resumption of Debate on Question [18th March, 1992],

"That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Code IC 1500 of the Main Estimates." -- [Mr Leong Horn Kee].

Question again proposed.

Dr Michael Lim Chun Leng (Cheng San GRC): Sir, in the recent survey of the Punggol area of Cheng San GRC completed this month, 37% of the 1,400 respondents indicated that the area was lacking in public transport. I had earlier raised the issue with the Minister and he has kindly consented to look at this matter. The reply is pending.

Sir, I would like to ask the Minister two questions. Firstly, do the bus companies conduct surveys of the residents in the HDB estates to assess the adequacy of the bus services? If they do, how are these surveys conducted to ensure that they reflect the actual needs of the residents? Secondly, it is often perceived that our bus companies only service profitable routes and are extremely reluctant to amend routes if they are not profitable. Can the Minister clarify if this is true? If it is not true, can the Minister cite specific services that are not profitable and are operated primarily to provide a service?

Encik Harun bin A. Ghani (Hong Kah GRC): I am not speaking, Sir.

The Minister for Communications (Mr Mah Bow Tan): Sir, first of all, may I respond to Mr Leong. Yesterday, in this House, he raised the issue of the evening ALS once again and in his remarks he prefaced it by saying that he was trying to flog a dead horse. May I try to lay the horse to rest once and for all.

Sir, in my reply to him in an Oral Question, I quoted some figures which the PWD gave to the Ministry of Communications indicating that after the opening of the CTE tunnel, the traffic counts showed that there was no change in the volume of traffic entering the restricted zone during the hours of 4.30 pm and 6.30 pm. I did not give him some other information which I think is material to the point that he was making, and that is, the volume of traffic waiting to enter the restricted zone after 6.30 pm has been rising steadily and, in fact, in the last six months, the volume of traffic waiting to go in has risen something like 20%. In other words, if there was no evening ALS, the volume of traffic entering the restricted zone would have risen something like 20%. Under the circumstances, if we lift the evening ALS we can expect traffic condition to worsen. I am afraid, therefore, I cannot agree with the Member's proposal and I hope that settles the matter.

Sir, in so far as the Electronic Road Pricing (ERP) system is concerned, I would like to inform Mr Leong that we are going ahead with the ERP. However, as he has rightly pointed out, we should be cautious in the matter. The reason is very simple. The technology is available for us to implement but we will be the first to implement this system on such a wide scale island-wide. So we will be proceeding cautiously.

I can tell him that the progress of the ERP project is on schedule because we have recently called for pre-qualifications and tenders will be called very soon. The contractor who is awarded the tender will be required to develop a mini system for demonstration in 1994 and, barring any unforeseen circumstances, we should be ready to pilot the project in 1996, with a full-scale system in operation soon after.

Mr Leong was also worried about the cost. I can assure him that the cost of implementing the ERP will be more than offset by the manpower savings from the current manual system as well as by other benefits and conveniences that will accrue to motorists. What the ERP system will do is to charge motorists according to road usage. It will be a fairer and also a more flexible system. We can fine-tune the charges according to where the congestion takes place, and how severe the congestion is. In other words, we can use the system to keep traffic moving freely in all parts of the island.

What is equally important, and I must stress this point, is that if the ERP proves to be effective in regulating the usage of vehicles -- we think it will -- we should be able to relax the vehicle quota system to enable more people to own cars. We may also review other statutory charges on vehicles, such as the road tax, when we implement the system. Details are now being worked out by my Ministry.

Mr Leong expressed some fears that the system will encroach on the privacy of motorists. He will be pleased to know that a by-product of the system is that the specifications that we have drawn up will protect the privacy of vehicle users, because they will be charged there and then through pre-paid smart cards and their movements will not be captured on the central computer. As he is aware, this was one of the objections to the Hong Kong system that was proposed and one of the reasons why that system was dropped.

Sir, my Ministry will keep motorists informed and updated regularly on the progress of the ERP. It is an exciting development. If it works, as we intend it to, there would be benefits all round. We can keep our roads free-flowing and at the same time we can allow for more people to own cars and other vehicles.

Sir, I turn now to the points raised by Dr Michael Lim. He asked whether bus companies conduct surveys. I believe they do. They conduct regular surveys, particularly when there are requests from residents and Members of Parliament and grassroots leaders on the inadequacy of services in their area. How do they conduct these surveys? I am afraid I am not in a position to answer that specifically but I would be very happy to ask the bus companies to enlighten the Member if he so wishes.

The point that Dr Michael Lim makes that is more important is whether SBS only serves profitable routes. I have asked SBS this question and they have responded both to myself and to the Ministry as well as to the various Members of Parliament, and I would like to take this opportunity to repeat it. The current status, according to the Public Transport Council, is that out of all the services that are operated by SBS, roughly one-third of those services are not profitable, they are losing money. Another one-third are breaking even and another one-third are profitable. This is part and parcel of the obligation that SBS is required to fulfil.

Yesterday, in this House, I explained at great length why we have allowed SBS and another company to more or less have a monopoly on routes in certain areas in exchange for service obligation. This then is the service obligation that SBS has to fulfil - to run not just profitable routes but also unprofitable but essential routes. Of course, the definition of "essential" varies from person to person. This is where the Public Transport Council comes into play. Their job is to make sure that they assess all requests, either from the bus companies to implement new routes, to withdraw routes or requests from grassroots leaders or members of the public, especially Members of Parliament, requesting for new routes. The PTC has a difficult job but, so far, it has done an admirable job and I believe if there are inadequacies in any area they will be very happy to consider such requests on a case-by-case basis.

Mr Leong Horn Kee (Thomson GRC): Sir, I am not so happy with the Minister's reply on the evening ALS. But I am quite happy with the assurances given by the Minister on the ERP. On that note, I wish to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (4), Mr Teo.

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Sir, I am not moving.

Mr Lew Syn Pau (Tanglin): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Code IE 3100 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, first of all, I would like to declare my interest as a member of the Public Transport Council representing taxi operators.

In Singapore, taxis are classified as public transport for the purposes of the Public Transport Council Act. There are many types of taxis in Singapore - big taxis, such as Toyota Crowns and Nissan Cedrics; small taxis like Toyota Coronas and Nissan Bluebirds. We have also special taxis like the London Cabs and the Opel Omega station wagons. They all provide different levels of comfort for commuters and they serve different special needs. And they do so at the same price, except for one or two surcharges allowed, even though their costs are very different. The big taxis, for example, cost 50% more than the smaller ones. A London cab costs three times that of a small cab. Taxi operators would also like to differentiate their service by allowing the use of credit cards and corporate accounts. These special services come at a higher cost.

Taxi operators should, therefore, be given the flexibility to set different taxi fares to differentiate the different services provided. At this point, I am not suggesting that taxi fares be totally deregulated. What I am proposing is that the Public Transport Council should perhaps just set a more generous upper bound and allow the taxi industry the flexibility to set different fares for different services. This is already happening in Japan where the flag-down fare for the big taxis is higher than that for the small taxis. I believe that too much regulation stifles innovation and competition in the industry. I hope the Minister will consider my suggestion. 12.45 pm

Mr Mah Bow Tan: Sir, I would like to inform the Member that I am in favour of his suggestion that taxi companies and taxi operators be allowed more flexibility in setting their fares. I think it is a good proposal as it will allow the various operators, as he puts it, to exercise more imagination and more innovation in the provision of taxi services.

I would just like to add a few words of caution in this respect, ie, taxis are public service vehicles whose charges impact the public. So any changes that we make will have to take into account the interest of the public, in particular, the problems relating to confusion over too many different taxi fares and the more serious problem of overcharging by some taxi drivers. In other words, we must make sure that passengers do not get taken for a ride in more ways than one.

I will ask the PTC to look into this matter to see how taxi operators can be given more flexibility in setting their fares without causing the attendant problems that I indicated earlier. But I would like to add that the Council has been quite receptive in allowing taxi companies to set differential fares. The Member has mentioned that the London cabs operated by TIBS are allowed to charge an extra $1. Passengers are free to choose to pay this extra dollar and if they do not wish to do so, there are many other cabs that are available.

Sir, on the idea of setting a high ceiling, I will pass on to the PTC to consider the matter. But let me just say that, at this very moment, taxi companies are flexible. They are free to set fares which are lower than the current gazetted maximum fares that have been set. If taxi operators wish to do so even now, I am sure there will be no objections from the PTC.

Mr Lew Syn Pau: Sir, I thank the Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Code IF 3100 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, in the book The Next Lap, page 90, under the heading "Public Transport", I do not come across any statement indicating that the MRT line will be extended to Changi Airport. If I may quote from this book:

'Within five years, the MRT will be extended to Woodlands. In the longer-term, possibly to Hougang and Punggol.'

Sir, I am very disappointed that nothing is mentioned about Changi Airport MRT line, in spite of the fact that the airport is world renowned and having been voted the best airport for four times. For three consecutive years in this House, I had spoken on this subject requesting for the extension of the MRT line to Changi Airport. But as you know, the former Minister for Communications and Information, Dr Yeo Ning Hong, responded by saying that the MRT central line to Changi Airport was not a viable proposition. Sir, I do not understand what is meant by a "viable proposition". If the MRTC only considers the residential population as the main criterion to justify for the MRT line, then under such criterion, the MRT will never come to Changi Airport.

Sir, Changi Airport has several thousand workers working there and the number is large enough to form a substantial base of commuters to ensure the viability of the MRT line to Changi Airport.

The Chairman: Mr Teo, do you want a reply or you rather not have a reply?

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I just want to request the Minister, Mr Mah Bow Tan, to seriously consider my request for a line to Changi Airport.

The Chairman: Mr Mah, we will give you some extra time since this is the last amendment.

Mr Mah Bow Tan: Thank you, Mr Speaker, Sir. Otherwise, I was going to refer Mr Teo to previous answers in the Hansard because of time constraint. Since I have been given the luxury of a bit of time, let me take this opportunity to reiterate a principle. I think this principle applies not just to MRT extension to Changi Airport but to many other places as well where Members have consistently made this request. This principle is that Government is prepared to bear the construction cost and other capital cost of any MRT extension, provided the demand can justify such an extension. In other words, there must be sufficient traffic to cover the operating cost, not just construction cost and capital cost. But there must be at least sufficient demand to cover the operating cost. It is very simple. If any line loses money and does not cover the operating cost, the operators will have to subsidise it with revenue from other lines. In the process, if fares go up, all MRT users will have to pay.

Sir, as far as the Changi Airport extension is concerned, the studies so far have consistently shown that there is not enough traffic to justify extending the MRT line to Changi Airport, even with the completion of Terminal 2. However, and I think Mr Teo may be interested to know this, we have safeguarded an MRT route to the Airport. We are safeguarding it from encroachment by other developments. So one day, when traffic increases, there may be sufficient demand to justify an MRT extension to Changi Airport and Mr Teo may well be rewarded for his persistence.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: Sir, I am still not satisfied with the answer, but I will try and pursue it further in this House.

With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $42,618,770 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $543,322,800 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head F --

Dr Tan Cheng Bock (Ayer Rajah): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head F of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, last month, the Leader of the House, in moving the motion to adopt the Report of the Standing Orders Committee, mentioned about the building of a new Chamber. Could the House be given details, if available, of the new Chamber, when will it be ready, and what additional facilities are being envisaged?

The Leader of the House (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, this question should rightly be answered by you.

The Chairman: You know that I cannot speak.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Since Mr Speaker cannot speak, I shall speak on his behalf.

I am pleased to inform Members that the planning for an extension of the existing Parliament Complex started in 1989. In 1990, Mr Speaker led a study mission, together with the design and project teams, to Europe and Australia to look at the Parliament Houses of these countries, so that the teams can familiarise themselves with Parliament complexes. Since then, we -- Mr Speaker, myself and a few others -- have had several briefings with the teams and now plans are afoot to restore the existing buildings and facilities and to build a new Chamber.

There will be different kinds of facilities. Firstly, there will be a new building housing a new Chamber and this new Chamber will be on the southern end of the old Attorney-General's Chambers. With this new Chamber, we will then be able to meet long-term needs of Parliament. We will restore the old AG's Chambers and renovate it to provide for a new and larger Library and there will be rooms for the staff as well as for the Archives. The present Parliament House as well as the Annexe will also be renovated and restored to provide for a reception hall, meeting rooms, committee rooms and so on.

The construction and restoration programme will be in two phases. Phase 1 will be the building of the new Parliament Chamber and the restoration of the old AG's Chambers. This will start sometime around the middle of next year, but the piling work will begin early next year. It will take about two years to finish. So by the middle of 1995, I think we will have a new Chamber.

Phase 2 will be the restoration of this present building as well as the Annexe. This will begin when we finish the first phase, ie, towards the middle or end of 1995 and will take about 20 months. So by 1997 or so, we would have restored the present complex.

The present Parliament Complex is about 0.9 hectares and the new complex will be about 3 hectares, which means three times the size of the present complex. The gross and net floor areas presently are about 4,574 sq metres and 2,147 sq metres respectively. But the new complex will add additional facilities with additional gross floor area of about four times the present size which is 17,170 sq metres and a net floor area of 8,401 sq metres. This excludes two basement car parks which we are also planning and the MPs will be able to park their cars in the basement.

Besides the new Parliament Chamber and the related rooms such as Galleries, Interpreters' rooms, officials' rooms, TV camera rooms and so on, there will be a large public hearing room as well as three meeting rooms, a Library and Members' rooms and so on. There should be enough rooms to meet the needs or the uses of Members. But there would be no luxury of allocating one room per Member. The new complex will be of excellent design and high quality. It will be elegant. It will be beautiful and functional, but it will not be a grandiloquent statement.

Dr Tan Cheng Bock: Sir, I thank the Minister for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $11,578,220 for Head F ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $1,010,900 for Head F ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I shall now deal with the remaining heads of expenditure in respect of which no amendment stands on the Order Paper Supplement.

In respect of the Main Estimates, they are Heads B, C, D, E, G, H, X and Z.

I propose to take these heads of expenditure en bloc.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Main Estimates on page 47 of Paper Cmd. 9 of 1992 stand part of the Main Estimates." put and agreed to.

The Chairman: In respect of the Development Estimates, they are Heads D, E and Z.

I propose to take these heads of expenditure en bloc.

Question, "That the sums stated for those heads of expenditure which appear in the last column of the Schedule of Estimated Expenditure under the Development Estimates on page 48 of Paper Cmd. 9 of 1992 stand part of the Development Estimates," put and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $10,472,299,590 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1992 to 31st March, 1993, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1992," put and agreed to.

Question, "That the sum of $8,233,857,800 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1992 to 31st March, 1993, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1992," put and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

The Minister for Finance (Dr Richard Hu Tsu Tau): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply have come to certain resolutions.

First Resolution reported --

"That the sum of $10,472,299,590 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure for the public services shown in the Main Estimates of expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1992 to 31st March, 1993, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1992."

Second Resolution reported --

"That the sum of $8,233,857,800 shall be supplied to the Government under the heads of expenditure shown in the Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1992 to 31st March, 1993, contained in Paper Cmd. 9 of 1992."

Dr Richard Hu Tsu Tau: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move, "That Parliament doth agree with the Committee on the said resolutions."

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions accordingly agreed to.