Committee

Mr Speaker: Committee stage, what day?

Mr Goode: Now, Sir. Sir, I move,

That the Assembly do resolve itself into Committee on the Bill.

The Assistant Minister for Labour and Welfare (Mr Mak Pak Shee): Sir, I second it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Clauses 1 to 13 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 14-

Question proposed, "That clause 14 stand part of the Bill."

11.25 a.m.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Sir, in clause 14 (b) it is said:

"The Commission shall advise the Governor on all questions relating to the following matters:-

any representations concerning Schemes of Service which may be referred to the Commission by the Governor;".

In the previous Public Services Commission Ordinance (Chapter 59), section 11(1) (e) says:

"The Commission shall advise the Governor on all questions relating to the following matters:-

any representations concerning terms of service which may be addressed to the Commission by any body of officers;".

Sir, I understand that the Staff Associations have expressed considerable opposition to the alteration made to section 11 (1) (e) of the Ordinance now to be repealed. I would like to hear the reasons for the alteration in the terms of that particular provision.

11.26 a.m.

Mr Goode: The hon. Member, Sir, is correct that the old Ordinance included section 11(1) (e) , which meant that any body of officers could make representations to the Public Services Commission on any matter, and we have been in consultation with the representatives of the Staff Side on the Whitley Council over the appropriate wording in this Bill. I think I can say with confidence that there is no divergence of views between the Government Side and the Staff Side in this matter. We are agreed that there are certain important matters which now should not go to an executive Public Service Commission, as I indicated in moving my motion. We are also agreed that there are other matters, such as representations on the general principles of promotion, over which the Staff Side should still have the right to make representations to an executive Public Service Commission.

Sir, the Government came to the conclusion that they could not incorporate in the new Bill the very wide wording which appears in section 11(1) (e) of the existing Ordinance, because that would lay open the possibility at least that the Public Service Commission would infringe on this field with executive decisions where we and the Staff Side are agreed that they should not infringe, namely, matters for direct negotiation.

I think it would not be improper for me to add that we did attempt a new wording to go into this clause of the Bill, to try and define those matters on which it is quite proper that the Staff Side should make representations to the Public Service Commission and those matters which should be excluded. We have not, unfortunately, been able to arrive at a definition which is satisfactory and we have therefore not attempted any definition at all. I have tried to cover the matter to some extent in speaking on the Bill. I would just add that if we could find a satisfactory definition, working in consultation with the Staff Side and indeed with any assistance which the hon. Member could give us, then I think we could certainly get that additional clause put into the Order in Council in due course to cover the point which the hon. Member raised.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Could the Chief Secretary explain to us what is intended by the change of the phrase "terms of service" to "schemes of service"? It seems to me that there is very little difference in the actual meaning of the phrase, but some difference in meaning must have been intended before the phrase was altered.

Mr Goode: To me, Sir, as a government officer, there is an essential difference between the phrase "schemes of service" and "terms of service". "Terms of service" primarily mean things like rates of pay. "Schemes of service" primarily mean things like the qualifications required for entering a particular service, the length of time you will have to be in it, the opportunities for promotion, the pyramid from the number of posts at the bottom up to the top and so on. They are, to me at any rate and I think to the public service generally, quite different. Perhaps the hon. Member will accept that assurance from me.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: There is one further point on the same clause, which I wish to direct to the Hon. the Attorney-General. In every one of the clauses where there are sub-clauses and sub-sub-clauses, it is the practice to put clause 14 (1) , then (a) , (b) , (c) ; then 14 (2) (a) , (b) , (c) . But it is not the practice in this Bill and in every other Bill before this House to put a sub-clause using the alphabet when there is no sub-clause using a number. Perhaps the Attorney-General would like to correct me.

The Chairman: Is that of any great importance?

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Sir, it does seem to me untidy -

The Chairman: The hon. Member would like a tidy Bill!

The Attorney-General (Mr C. H. Butterfield): I take it that the hon. Member wishes to make the form of clause 14 conform to the form of clause 12. Is that right?

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: That is right.

Mr Butterfield: If the hon. Member cares to move an amendment, no doubt -

The Chairman: Can I draw the hon. Member's attention to clause 4 which has already been passed?

The Chief Minister: May I also say that the (a) , (b) , (c) here could not be sub-clause at all? They are the enumeration of the matters under clause 14.

The Chairman: In any case, there is no amendment before the House.

Question, "That clause 14 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 15 to 25 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Goode: Sir, I move, "That the Bill be reported to the Assembly."

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Third Reading

Mr Speaker: Third Reading, what day?

Mr Goode: Now, Sir. Sir, I move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

Mr Mak Pak Shee: Sir, I second it.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time.