ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 1969, TO 31ST MARCH, 1970

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [1st Allotted Day].

3.08 p.m.

The Chairman: Estimates of Expenditure of Singapore for the financial year 1st January, 1969, to 31st March, 1970, contained in Paper Cmd. 27 of 1968. For the convenience of hon. Members, I intend taking the total for each head of expenditure as it appears in the last column of the Abstract of Estimated Expenditure on pages 53 and 54 of the Paper.

Dealing first with the heads of expenditure in respect of which amendments stand on the Order Paper Supplement No. 5

Head 0106 -

Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi (Kampong Kembangan): (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0106 he reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2013.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I am confident that the Government is still desirous of promoting and uplifting the livelihood of the Malays in the Republic by giving opportunities to Malay children who are Singapore citizens to acquire higher education. The Malays in the Republic are generally far behind in all fields of human endeavour. I believe the Government is fully aware of this fact. That is the reason why the Government is setting aside special bursaries for Malays. But, unfortunately, the bursaries for the year 1969/70 have been reduced. Each recipient gets only $750 per year. This is half the amount which the Malay students received in previous years. This amount is inadequate for a student studying in an institution of higher learning.

Mr Speaker, Sir, for the first time in the history of the Republic of Singapore, students from the Malay language stream are admitted to the University of Singapore and Nanyang University. Although both universities provide courses in Malay studies, nevertheless, they both require a pass in English and Mandarin respectively before students can be admitted and obtain their degrees. One of the ways to improve Malay students' knowledge of English and Mandarin is to stay in the hostel where they can mix freely and harmoniously with their non-Malay fellow students. But the reduced amount of bursary of $750 per year for each student will not be adequate for this purpose. Because the Malays are still behind the other communities in all fields, I make the appeal that the special bursaries for Malay students be con tinued to be given in full for at least a period of ten years. If they are given in full, the Malays will not lag behind their more advanced brethren and fellow citizens of other communities.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.

The Acting Prime Minister (Dr Goh Keng Swee): Mr Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member has rightly observed that it is an important item of policy of the Singapore Government to ensure that the Malays improve their competitive position in our society. And one of the best ways to achieve this is to give them certain privileges in the field of education which other communities do not enjoy. At present Singapore Malay citizens enjoy free tuition from primary school to secondary school level and, if they are qualified, are eligible for admission to institutions of higher learning. They enjoy free tuition in the universities, the Polytechnic and so on.

When the special Malay bursaries were first introduced, it was possible to give everybody the maximum amount of the award simply because there were at that time very few students who were eligible for such bursaries. This year the number of Malay students who have obtained bursaries is more than three times that of last year. There is no justification for giving everybody the maximum award, either in the case of the special Malay bursaries or, indeed, in the case of other bursaries. There is also an additional reason. Interest-free study loans are eligible to Malay students as well as to other students. So with the increase in opportunities available to Malay students, it is necessary to modify the original conditions. Where before there was no regard paid to the academic performance of the students, now their progress in their work, their family income, and the economic cir cumstances of their family, will have to be borne in mind.

3.15 p.m.

I am satisfied that, all things considered, the present position is one which provides sufficient benefits to Malays in pursuit of higher education and that the new policy would in no way reduce the ability of the Malays to gain admission to higher institutions of learning and profit from academic studies.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, can the Minister confirm whether a student, who is receiving a bursary of $750 a year, can apply for an interest-free study loan if he is in need of financial aid to further his studies?

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Am I to understand that the question is whether, in addition to bursaries, Malay students can get study loans? I am not conversant with the details of the regulations governing study loans and bursaries. No doubt, if there are special circumstances which justify a grant of both study loan and bursary in any individual case, such an application will be considered.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): On the explanation of the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $2,475,320 for Head 0106 ,ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0201 -

Mr Ng Yeow Chong (Mountbatten): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0201 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3004*.

• The same amendment aslo stood in the name of Mr. Hwang Soo Jin.

Sir, I understand that this block provision of nearly $2.3 million is provided for the Bases Economic Conversion Department for the next financial year to meet expenses on the training and retraining courses for redundant base workers and expenditure on administration in connection therewith.

In addition, there is a supplementary provision of $430,000 provided in the Third Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure for 1968 which was approved in this House a few days ago.

The establishment of this new department is necessary in view of the redundancy of large numbers of base workers who will be retrenched in stages from now up to the end of 1971. Our Government must be praised for this wise move in making advance plans for the train ing and retraining of redundant base workers and for the taking over and conversion of certain military bases for commercial use. For instance, the Naval Dockyard at Sembawang has been taken over and converted into a commercial dockyard.

Base workers will no doubt benefit under this scheme and will definitely appreciate what the Government is doing for them. Sir, may I request the Acting Prime Minister to brief the House on:

(1) whether the training and retraining of redundant base workers is deemed to be satisfactory;

(2) how many of the redundant base workers who have completed training? have been taken into employment with the industrial firms and how many are at present still under training;

(3) whether plans have been made out to take over the three air bases at Changi, Seletar and Tengah and what the Government proposes to do with them; and

(4) whether the British Army establishments and land along Ayer Rajah Road and Alexandra Road areas and elsewhere in the Republic will be converted for use by light industries after providing for its use by our own defence forces.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Sir, as you are aware, the Royal Air Force Seletar Base is in the constituency of Jalan Kayu. I understand it is the first base to be affected by the British projected withdrawal. In order that those of my constituents who are likely to be affected either directly or indirectly may start preparing for any change and adjustment necessary in their economic activities, I should appreciate it if the Acting Prime Minister would inform the House whether plans have now been finalised concerning the conversion of Seletar. I appreciate that conversion of the base is a major undertaking and calls for the most careful consideration and planning. But I do hope that the people can be kept informed of progress from time to time.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, the Member for Mountbatten wants to know whether the training schemes provided for redundant base workers have been deemed satisfactory. Of course, this is a very difficult question to answer, because whether or not the training is satisfactory will depend on whether or not they get jobs after they have been retrenched. This test has so far not been applied on a very large scale. The reason is that most of those base employees who have gone through the training schemes are still employed at the bases. In the first batch of trainees, out of 561 workers, 427 successfully completed the course. Similarly, in the second batch, out of 524 workers, 417 passed the course. But 90 per cent of the trainees are still in the employ of the British services. Therefore, whether the training would be good enough to get them a new job in industry has yet to be seen. But of those who have been retrenched and who have responded to the circular issued by the Bases Economic Conversion Department, 81 out of the 1,105 retrenched have undergone this course and 49 of them have been re-employed by the Sembawang Shipyard, formerly H.M. Naval Dockyard. So on that question, no conclusive answer has been reached.

I have also answered the Member's question about the number of persons taken into new employment.

As regards the three air bases, Changi, Seletar and Tengah, it is a bit early to think about what to do with Changi and Seletar. These are not likely to be released until very late in the rundown programme, probably at the end of December 1971. So far, only a limited number of properties have been taken over. These include Blakang Mati, Fort Canning, Bukit Timah Maintenance Park, 30 buildings and a hangar in Seletar, some buildings and a hangar in Tengah, Pulau Tekong, Kiat Hong domestic accommodation, the Naval Dockyard and No. 5 Sub-depot of the Base Ordnance Depot at Telok Blangah.

The Ministry of Defence has taken over all these properties except the last which is being used as an industrial training centre. Plans, of course, are being drawn up in consultation with the Land Office, the State and City Planning Department, the Ministry of the Interior and Defence and various other depart ments and Ministries concerned. It will be some time before a final decision is reached on these matters.

As regards the air base in Seletar, the present intention is to develop it into a civilian aircraft maintenance centre. This project has been under intensive study by the Economic Development Board which has engaged a team of American consultants to see in what form or what shape this aircraft maintenance business can be carried on in Seletar. The study is in an advanced stage of completion.

In addition to the study by American consultants, Hawker de Havilland has proposed that they be allowed to make use of some facilities in Seletar air base to run an aircraft maintenance and overhaul business on commercial lines. The merits of this proposal are being assessed.

It will be some time, not too long I am sure, before a final decision is reached on these matters.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $4,198,850 for Head 0201 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0301 -

Mr Sim Boon Woo (Changi): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0301 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Sir, the only purpose of this amendment is to seek information on why only a token provision has been made for -the Minister's salary. Sit, is the Minister going to live on fresh air?

Secondly, why is it that there is no Permanent Secretary attached to the Ministry of Science and Technology?

3.30 p.m.

The Minister for Science and Technology (Dr Toh Chin Chye): Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Member for Changi intends to remove even that little $10, there will be nothing left and the Minister does not exist at all. However, for the clarification of the House, Members will be aware that I also hold another post as Vice-Chancellor of the University of Singapore. I can receive only one salary and I am being paid by the University and therefore I am not receiving any emolument from the Government. The $10 vote is, of course, a token sum to indicate that the Minister does exist.

As of this moment when I am building up the Ministry and the work is slowly piling up, the reason why we do not have a Permanent Secretary attached to the Ministry is that I cannot find any civil servant of that category who can be my Permanent Secretary. So I have a Principal Assistant Secretary instead. I must add that I have been relieved of a considerable load of work by the Science Council of Singapore to which I have passed a lot of the problems addressed to me.

At this moment, the Ministry is involved in a sample survey of professional and technical manpower in conjunction with the Economic Research Centre of the University, and there has also been a proposal to form a placement agency attached to my Ministry. The reason is that graduates who have come back to Singapore from abroad have found that they are not able to obtain jobs according to their qualifications or training. Some have become square pegs in round holes and some have become unemployable.

Sir, some of these graduates have approached or written to me for jobs. Being responsible for the University and the Polytechnic, I am in a favourable position to understand the staffing position in these two institutions. I do hope that I will be able to help them as far as I can. However, there is indeed a need for us to explain to students who go abroad for a higher degree, or even an undergraduate course, what studies they can profitably undertake so that when they return to Singapore they can be usefully employed. It is my concern that many of our young students who go abroad have not been so counselled and we see now the con sequences of students taking up esoteric studies and, on returning, find that they cannot obtain employment for the training which they have undergone. This is a problem with which my Ministry is faced, and as the work accumulates it is my intention at some future date to appoint perhaps a Parliamentary Secretary to assist me in interviewing some of these returned students.

I hope this explanation satisfies the Member for Changi.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, in view of the clarification and explanation given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $390,200 for Head 0301 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0401 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Undoubtedly, the Ministry of Finance has played a very important part in the building of our country. For instance, the Ministry has formulated two industrial projects which have attracted many foreign investors to set up factories here and thereby create more employ ment opportunities for our workers. The stability of our currency has also been maintained, and our people have confidence in it. This contributes to social stability and economic well-being.

At yesterday's sitting, the Member for River Valley and other Members spoke about the increased cost of living. I think this question needs our special attention because in the past few years there have been many changes in the prices of goods. I would ask the Minister whether he will set up a Prices Committee comprising Members of Parliament who can represent the people of the various constituencies, because they are in close contact with them and know the prices of goods very well, and officials from the Ministry of Finance as well as representatives from industrial and commercial circles. The Committee can gather material and data on the prices of goods. Thus, on the one hand, the Committee can prevent an increase in the prices of goods and, on the other hand, it can give information on the cost of living and the prices of various goods and also think of a method to impose control on prices.

The next point I wish to deal with is currency. The old currencies will no longer be used with effect from 16th January, 1969. I hope the authorities concerned will remind the people to change notes or coins in the old currency before 16th January, 1969, in order to avoid any losses.

The third point concerns the question of unemployment. According to information supplied by the Ministry of Labour, the unemployment figure now stands at 60,000. After the British military withdrawal, it will be between 20,000 and 30,000. Since our Minister for Finance is an expert in economics, I think he can think of a solution to resolve this problem, such as by developing the agricultural areas, the opening up of available land for this purpose and the building of fish ponds.

Another problem touches on the question of imports exceeding exports. I think we are all worried about this. There are also currency problems besetting other countries, such as the French currency crisis and the pressure on the American dollar. These problems are mainly due to the imbalance of trade. At the moment, we have a deficit of $960 million, although our total trade amounts to $6,720 million. If we have a deficit running into hundreds of millions of dollars, it may in the end lead to a currency crisis.

I hope the Minister will think of a solution to resolve this problem.

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to touch upon the matters which have already been mentioned by the Member for Sembawang just now, one of which being the increase in the prices of goods. I support the Member for Sembawang on this matter because the prices of goods have been fluctuating according to the economic situation. In order to resolve this problem, a com mittee should be set up to look into the prices of goods. I hope that members of the committee will also include representatives from the Citizens' Con sultative Committees so that they may present their recommendations to the Minister after having duly considered the various problems connected with this subject.

Mr Speaker, Sir, when the pound .sterling was devalued, the expectation was that it should not have affected the prices of our goods, but because of the procedure in exchange, merchants were able to make profits out of it. In the end, goods which cost 15 cents were charged at 20 cents because the merchants said that it was difficult to give an additional three cents change. Thus, the prices of goods were increased. To people with a good income, this does not present any problem, but those in the lower income group would have to bear the added burden.

Before the Minister for Finance announced the Budget for the ensuing financial year, he did mention that Singapore would not have a painless Budget in the coming financial year. Because of this, the people were worried and there were rumours that taxes would be levied on refrigerators, television sets, etc. In order to avoid paying additional taxes, the people rushed to buy these goods so that the Government might incur the losses in the end. I think the Trade Division has not been properly controlled. That is why such an incident has happened. Therefore, a committee is very necessary to resolve problems concerning the prices of goods.

Another point to which the Minister for Finance should pay attention is this. I have found out that many of our local goods are more expensive than the imported goods. Being produced locally, the goods are exempted from certain taxes and therefore they should be cheaper. I can give a very simple example. I have here some samples of match-boxes. They have an elephant as a trade mark.

3.45 p.m.

One match-box is produced abroad and the other is produced locally. There are ten small match-boxes in a packet. A local packet of match-boxes, each containing 48 matches, costs 50 cents. An imported packet of match-boxes, each containing 62 matches, costs 60 -cents. The locally-produced match-boxes are not taxed, whereas there is a tariff on imported match-boxes. This means that the people are cheated in the price of locally-produced match-boxes. That is why some people buy cheaper matchboxes and goods that are made in China.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, Sir, a committee should be set up to look into the prices of various goods, especially those produced locally, with a view to imposing some sort of control over them. How can we expect to encourage the people to buy local goods which are more expensive than imported goods?

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to touch on the subhead relating to the salaries of Ministers.

Unless somebody says something now, our Ministers will be getting $2,000 a month a hundred years from now! I realise that it will take some time to change the thinking in Government service, but getting the best at the cheapest rate is a clever scheme. This kind of thinking is probably inherited from the colonial past and has led to some unnecessary exploitation of our talents. Is it therefore surprising that we are having a brain drain from the Government service to the private sector and also to other countries? Take, for example, the salary of the Minister for Finance. His salary is formulated on civil service emoluments of 1955 and I think it is very much out of date and unrealistic in relation to his status and to the work he has to do and even to the rise in the cost of living.

I am sure the House will agree with me that we can easily afford to pay our Ministers more. I suggest, therefore, that their salary scales should be reviewed and revised.

Some hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Finance (Dr Goh Keng Swee): Mr Speaker, Sir, I will start off with prices and price committees.

When my Parliamentary Secretary yesterday announced that the retail price index had gone down from January to September this year from 113 to 111 points, his statement was greeted with a great deal of scepticism, if not with downright derision. Obviously people believe that the cost of living is increasing. But before we argue about whether prices are going up or down, I would like to explain how the cost of living is measured statistically, what the retail price index means, and the basis on which the index is computed.

When you say that prices are going up, it is always very easy for anybody to point to particular examples. The prices of bicycle-tubes, or shoes, or socks may be going up in one week and you say that on the basis of this evidence, prices are going up. On the other hand, you can point to the prices of other goods which may be going down - rice, or chillies, or blachan, or what have you. So in our type of economy which is based on a free market, prices are always changing - some are going up and some are going down. So how do you say, "In general, prices are going up or prices are going down, or prices have remained stable when some are going up and some are going down and others are remaining stable."? Obviously, there must be some kind of averaging process applied to prices of goods bought and sold in the market. This is exactly what the retail price index attempts to do.

The retail price index is based on a study of what people in Singapore actually bought in the year nineteen fifty something - I have forgotten the actual year. Some people went out and studied what some 500 working class families in Singapore bought in one month. They kept detailed records of what the housewife spent every time she came back from the market. They asked other members of the family, "How much did you spend on transport, education, cigarettes, entertainment, clothing, and so on?" Taking the total pattern of expenditure of these few hundred working-class families, you then arrive at the relative importance of different types of consumer goods and services that enter into a working-class family budget. Then you can say that food will come to, say, 45 per cent or 51 per cent - and the food items are these: rice, noodles, this, that and the other. For each item, you can say that it comes to a certain percentage of the total expenditure. The pattern of expenditure of these working-class family budgets gives you what is called the weights, that is, how much importance you attach to the different commodities - say if they spend ten. per cent of their expenditure on rice, then rice will occupy one-tenth of the total expenditure, and if the price of rice goes up, then it has a weight of ten as compared with the total weight of 100. This is the way we measure the cost of living movements.

Once we get the weights which are based on actual budget surveys of working class families, we periodically send out inspectors to take down the prices. There is a team of price inspectors attached to the Statistics. Department, each of whom is provided with detailed instructions. They do not just find out whether the price of shoes this week is more expensive than that of last week. They are told, "Go to this shop, check this kind of shoes and record its price regularly." Different inspectors, will go to different shops to get different types of shoes properly specified, so that we do not have changes in prices which are due to, changes in quality. And similarly with the whole range of vegetables, fish, and so on. Of course, there are many technical difficulties of definition in getting standard qualities and so on. But within what is possible to standardise and what is possible to define, this is the way the cost of living index is formulated and kept up to date.

It may be asked, "How is it that in Singapore in the first nine months of this year, the retail price index has gone down by two points, whereas we know for a fact that in most other countries, the cost of living has been going up?" If advanced countries like Britain or the richest country in the world, the United States, are taken, it will be found that this year the retail price increases have been of the order of between 4� and 6 per cent. That is the measure of inflation that is going on in these countries. But in poorer coun tries, the situation is worse. In a large under-developed country like Brazil when they have an increase in prices of 80 per cent a year, they say that they have done well because the prices had increased by 200 per cent the previous year. Take our neighbour, Indonesia, which has been racked by inflation ever since Dr Sukarno thought that economics was a matter for book-keepers.

In our case, when the official price index showed a decline of two points from 113 to 111 points this year, there is a rational explanation for it. You will remember that last year there was a very big increase in the price of rice because of a drought in Thailand and a general shortage of rice from our other traditional source - Burma. The price of rice shot up to 50 cents or more a katty for the best quality. But since then it has gone down. And because rice is such an important item in the budget of a working-class family, this decline in the price of rice has brought down the retail price index. Therefore, when you say that the prices of shoes and socks have gone up, they might have gone up a little bit. But because the proportion of money spent on shoes, socks, match-boxes, or what have you, is so small compared to that spent on rice, the general fall in the price of rice has brought about a fall in our retail price index.

So much for the background. Therefore, it is not necessary, in order to measure price movements scientifically, to form a Price Committee. Unless the committee works according to these principles of measuring prices, we will be constantly arguing about whether prices are going up or going down, because they may be collecting prices at different shops and at different markets and indeed in respect of different brands or different qualities of products. So I do not think that a Price Committee will be more useful in giving us information as to movements in the cost of living than the official retail price index.

The Member for Sembawang believes that a Price Committee can prevent increases in prices. This is what King Canute thought. Governments have tried to control prices and the net result is the emergence of black markets, bribery and corruption. Where a com mittee has no statutory powers, I do not see how it can exert any influence over prices. Mind you, it can probably browbeat the grocer around the corner, but that is not going to help the people. So in order to ensure that the cost of living does not go up, we can take a number of precautions. The first, of course, is to ensure that we run an efficient port. We get most of our consumer goods from abroad, including the bulk of our foodstuffs, textiles, and so on. So long as we have an efficient port, a competitive importing system and an absence of monopolies, we can ensure that we buy the cheapest and the best goods from any part of the world.

4.00 p.m.

Similarly for locally produced goods. I will deal with this subject in some detail later. The Member for Delta has raised this point also.

The second point raised by the Member for Sembawang was : what would happen to the old notes and coins after 16th January, 1969? They will no longer be legal tender. Anybody who has these coins had better put them either into the bank or the Currency Board, because after 16th January, 1969 the bus conductor has a right to say, "I do not want this money." We have already announced to the public to send in their old coins and old notes quickly, because after 16th January, 1969, they will no longer be legal tender. The public will be put to a lot of inconvenience to get par value for these coins and notes. They will not, of course, be utterly worthless, because the value of these old notes and coins is guaranteed by law. But it would be very inconvenient.

With regard to unemployment, the Member for Sembawang has suggested opening up arable land, fish ponds and so on and so forth. The trouble with opening up arable land is that we have only 224 square miles of land at low tide. Where are your vast areas - the new western frontiers? I do not see them. In fact, I am trying to persuade my colleague, the Minister for National Development, to induce our pig farmers to raise pigs in flatted concrete structures. This has been tried in England, and with such great success that the British Ministry of Agriculture have banned this method of raising pigs because they say it will knock out the ordinary farmers who raise pigs on the ground and not in concrete structures. This is a very efficient method of raising pigs. I hope I can convince my colleague that we should do likewise. But so far I have not been successful.

The Member for Sembawang is greatly concerned about the gap between imports and exports. He says that we imported more than we exported, and that there was a deficit in our balance of trade. Of course, there is a deficit in the balance of trade. There has been a deficit ever since Sir Stamford Raffles landed here. Mind you, each year, for some reason or another, within a day or two after we have published the twelve months' trade figures, Radio Peking will say, "There you are, Singapore is in trouble again. Exports are $2,000 million and imports are $3,000 million. There is a deficit of $1,000 million. They are going bankrupt." And this has been going on for years. I would ask the Member for Sembawang not to worry at all. We are in no danger of going bankrupt. What you want is not so much a balance of trade; that is, the goods you buy, the goods that are transported from the holds of the ship to the harbours and thence into the shops and godowns, and what we export by sea or by air. That is only part of what the economists call the balance of payments. Although there is a deficit in the balance of trade - that is, we import more than we export, and the deficit is very substantial; this year it will probably be short by $1,000 million - we make it up by what we call "invisible exports". They are, for example, the earnings of tourists, what the seamen spend when they are on shore in Singapore, the British base expenditure, which unfortunately is getting less and less each year, and our earnings on shipping, insurance, and on the general entrepot trade. All this makes up the balance.

Of course, nobody really knows what our balance of payments position is in any given year. I have come across dozens of estimates of balance of payments made by the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank; estimates made by our own statisticians, by the University of Singapore Economics Department and so on and so forth. But, quite frankly, I do not believe any of them. At one time those who estimated Singapore's balance of payments were very modest. You will find that one of the biggest items will be what they call "E, and O." - Errors and Omissions, and they will be running to $500 million. But now statisticians have presumed to be more accurate and this "E, and O." business seems to be getting smaller and smaller. I wonder whether that is, in fact, the case. The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating. Whether we balance our trade or not, the question is whether in the end our external balances go up or go down. In the case of Britain, they say all the time that their assets go down and they have to borrow from people. So sterling is in trouble. But in our case, our assets are going up year by year and, in fact, at a very rapid rate. What are we going to do with such sums of money with the international monetary system in such an insecure situation? It gives me many sleepless nights to think of what to do with the $2,000 million that we have All is well with our imports and exports. Do not worry about that.

The Member for Delta has dealt with the cost of living. I think I probably answered her points when I replied to the Member for Sembawang. I do not know whether I have got her right, but I had the impression that she was complaining about merchants making money as a result of devaluation. I do not know why she should complain about other people's good fortune. After all, some make profits, others suffer losses, and in the end it all evens up. She said that after I had said that there would not be a painless budget, rumours apparently were quite rife in Singapore and people rushed to buy refrigerators, T.V. sets and what have you. So what ! She cannot blame me. I cannot tell them that there would not be any increase in tax in refrigerators, T.V. sets or shoes or what have you. So if they listen to rumours and act foolishly, that is their business. I do not think -

Madam Chan Choy Siong rose -

The Chairman: Dr Goh, Madam ,Chan wants to intervene.

Dr Goh Keng Swee resumed his seat.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: On a point of clarification.

The Chairman: Yes, Madam Chan.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): The Minister for Finance was perhaps not quite clear about what I was saying. Of course, he could not tell the people that taxation would be increased on certain goods. But what I meant to say was that when the Finance Minister announced that there would not be a painless budget, the merchants had the impression that there might be a purchase tax on certain goods. They, therefore, took advantage of the situation. Hence, the people thought that it would be better to buy such goods earlier. For example, if a refrigerator -cost $750, then the merchants could sell it for a few dollars more, say, at $755 or $760, when the original cost should have been less. Thus the people had to incur greater expenditure. But the trade section did not pay any attention to this.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Thank you, Mr Speaker, Sit. I take the point, but I am really working to this position. Instead of having a price committee, I think what can be done is to form a consumers' association. This is rather important, because of the example given by the Member for Delta that locally-made matches are more expensive than imported matches in spite of taxes levied on imported matches. What is really needed in Singapore is a consumers' association. It works out this way. When you form this consumers' association, it can do many of the things which the Member for Delta has been suggesting; that is, it can keep an eye on local industries to make sure that they produce goods of the right quality at the right prices, and if prices in the retail markets are high, then who is to blame, whether it is the retailer, the wholesaler or the manufacturer. That is one thing which the consumers' association can do. Also it can get in touch with the Industrial Research Unit and see that the range of goods which is being sent to the Industrial Research Unit for quality tests is adequate. They can satisfy themselves that the quality tests themselves conform to acceptable standards. All these things are obviously needed here. I hope the Member for Sembawang and the Member for Delta will take the initiative in forming this consumers' association. If they want any literature of how consumers' associations of other countries operate, the Trade Division will be very glad to give them all the assistance. This is a practical proposal. In Japan and in the United States, and I suspect in quite a lot of other industrial countries, you have consumers' associations which can be a very powerful lobby politically. The Japanese Consumers' Association, for instance, maintains its own laboratory and takes samples from shops and manufacturers, and lobbies M.P.s from industrial areas to ensure that high standards of quality are maintained in the industry and that reasonable prices are charged in the retail markets.

Finally, the Member for Joo Chiat made the rather cheerful suggestion that we deserve more pay. Mind you, speaking purely for myself, I could not agree more ! But we are in this political business. We have to set an example of dedication, self-sacrifice to the trade, industry and to the whole country. I am afraid that unless there is a public clamour to give Ministers more pay, the matter must rest where it is now.

The Chairman: Mr Teong, are you withdrawing your amendment?

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): I wish to say something more.

The Chairman: Mr Teong, as we go on with Estimates debate, if I have to cut you short on reaching "guillotine" time, you may share the responsibility. With that in mind please proceed, Mr Teong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, before I withdraw my amendment, I must thank the Finance Minister for having given us such a detailed reply. I agree with his suggestion to form a consumers' association. I suppose he can become the first president of the association!

I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.15 p.m.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004*.

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr. Yeoh Ghim Seng.

Sir, I am under the impression that if a Ministry has a legal problem, it will seek the advice of the Attorney-General or his legal officers and that there is no necessity for each Ministry to retain its own legal consultant.

Under this subhead, the Ministry of Finance not only requires a legal consultant, but a very senior legal consultant. This is apparent from the relatively high salary allocated for this officer which is more than the Minister's salary.

May I be enlightened by the Minister on the duties of this legal consultant, and why is it not possible to utilise the services of the Attorney-General?

The Chairman: Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: Sir, I am not speaking.

Dr Goh Keng Swee: Sir, actually the Member for Anson has a point there. But then we were faced with rather exceptional circumstances which required an exceptional solution. The, present incumbent is a legal authority of international eminence. He was formerly our Ambassador in Cairo. Of course, before that, he was the State Advocate-General. On completion of his diplomatic duties, he is available. Either he takes on the job as Professor of Islamic Law in the University of Cambridge or he works in Singapore. So in order to prevent a brain drain, we have to create this post and give him a salary which is somewhat larger than a Minister's salary. Of course, there is a lot of work for him to do. There is the Income Tax Department; the Customs Ordinance is being revised; and, of course, the Government is now a major shareholder in dozens of companies. In strict accordance with the socialist principles of the People's Action Party, we are in industry. Our companies often need legal advice and there he is.

So all in all, it is a very good move to create this post and appoint this gentleman.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: In view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to, withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

Sir, I wish to speak on the Economic Development Division. I have two points. The first is that the Economic Development Board has done a good job in the development of industries. However, I should like to point out that some of the products of these industries are not very good. In fact, their quality is rather poor. If we compare these goods with similar goods from advanced countries, the difference is quite marked. The Economic Development Board, in addition to developing industries, should also be engaged in the task of improving the quality of the products of our industries so that they can compare favourably with products from other countries. Or at least the difference in the quality should not be so great. Otherwise, our competitive position in international markets will be very poor.

Our local textile merchants have told me some of their problems. They complain of the quota system and say that nowadays they can only sell a limited range of textiles. They say that the locally-produced textiles are of very poor quality. Even though they are cheap and are on display, most of their customers are not willing to buy them but prefer to buy goods from Hong Kong or the Philippines. Even textiles from the Philippines are being sold locally. Therefore, if the Economic Development Board is concentrating its efforts only on the establishment of industries and neglects the quality of their products, I feel that this is not a good sign for the future.

The second point is that the Economic Development Board should pay equal attention to helping the large enterprises as well as the small and medium-sized industries with limited capital. These industries do not receive much encouragement or help from the E.D.B. I hope the Development Bank, which has taken over some of the functions of the E.D.B., will pay equal attention to large enterprises as well as small and medium-sized enterprises. It should give the small and medium-sized enterprises the same help that is extended to the big enterprises. In this way, the small and medium-sized enterprises will also assist in the industrialisation programme of our country.

I hope that these two points will be carefully dealt with.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr Tang See Chim): I do not think anyone can disagree with what the Member for Delta has said on what we should do. On the quality of goods, of course, we must ensure that our industries produce not only quality goods but also goods that are cheap and competitive in the international market. That is a basic principle of our industrialisation programme.

What are the facts? The facts are that the textile industry in Singapore produces quality products that are so competitive both in the U.S.A. and in the U.K. markets that those markets cannot compete with us. They have to resort to restrictions. They have im posed a quota system as well as putting tariffs on our textiles. The same applies to Canada. In fact, not long ago we sent a team to Canada to negotiate with them on the amount of yardage that we can send to Canada in any one year. Actually all we ask for is that they open their market to us and we will be prosperous in Singapore. We can compete very well indeed with other countries. The point is that they do not allow our goods to go in.

No doubt there are various qualities of products. As the Member for Delta herself has said, in the shops, some products are cheaper but their quality is not as good. In Singapore, we have a very wide range of goods. Take your pick. If you like better quality products, pay more for it. If you like cheaper quality goods, they are there.

So the answer perhaps is as suggested by my Minister, that we set up a consumers' association which could compare whether the quality of a particular brand selling at so much warrants that price. Or whether the quality of a cheaper brand is comparable with another brand at the same price or at a lower price.

I might mention that in the Economic Development Board there is the Industrial Research Unit which does research into the quality of goods. It also undertakes testing. But, of course, such testings are only done at the request of manufacturers. The consumers' association - the Member for Sembawang has said that he will invite the Minister for Finance to be its first president - can request the Industrial Research Unit to test the quality of goods and then inform its members of the range and quality of goods that are available to consumers in Singapore and thereby safeguard the interest of consumers.

As regards the second suggestion that the E.D.B. should encourage small and medium-sized industries and not just the big ones, again I agree with her. But that is exactly what the E.D.B. is doing. In fact, in order to help small industries, the E.D.B. has set up the Light Industries Services Unit. The main object of this Unit is to service light and small industries. It also finances them provided, of course, they can make out a case and show that the projects they are promoting are, in fact, beneficial to Singapore and are in accordance with the Government's policy of industrialisation and providing jobs for its citizens.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.30 p.m.

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1251.

Sir, our civil service is always, by comparison, one feature in our country of which we can take pride, but I think there is always some need for vigilance over a possible relapse into inertia which could arise when the civil servant begins to restrict his ability and interest to the immediate activity of his post. I think that you begin to get this situation where the civil servant says to a member of the public who approaches him with a problem, that he is sorry, it cannot be done, and it is said with the finality that brooks no further question. It is certainly not a desirable situation, Sir. What we need is the civil servant who, when approached by a member of the public for a problem to be resolved and finding that he is unable to resolve it, is able to suggest how it can be resolved perhaps in another department.

In order to achieve that situation, I feel that, first of all, the civil servant needs to inject some professionalism into his duties and also to extend his knowledge of the establishment beyond his immediate activity. I think there is also a need for an inter-departmental communication whereby civil servants in the respective departments could be as knowledgeable of the definition of duties in the other departments in respect of the other civil servants. Sir, I wonder to what extent this inter departmental communication exists in the service today.

I think it is also necessary to see that powers do not continue to be vested with the particular individual at the top in the department so that you will begin to get the civil service becoming authoritarian. I think there should be sufficient delegation of duties so that, to resort to a colloquialism, "the buck is not passed upstairs", which then makes it difficult for the public to get their problems solved.

Lastly, I think it is also opportune for me to mention at this stage the unavailability of the Instruction Manual in the civil service today. This book is becoming as rare as the dodo nowadays. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will say something about it.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Serangoon Gardens has enunciated principles on which I cannot disagree with him. He says that our civil service is efficient. The objective of the civil service is to serve the public and it should be both civil and helpful. The hon. Member quoted an example of somebody going to an officer and asking him, "Can such and such a thing be done?" and the officer replied, "I am sorry. It cannot be done." I think it depends on what the particular matter is. Sometimes certain matters can be said with finality that they cannot be done. In fact, that is the very idea of the delegation of authority that the Member for Serangoon Gardens has advocated. He cannot really have delegation of authority and yet be able to say, "The matter cannot be done. I will refer it to my superior." Surely that is passing the buck which the hon. Member is against.

If a matter does not concern that particular department but another department, it is expected that the civil servant should know about it and be able to help the enquirer with the problem. For example, if an enquirer, by mistake, enters the Registrar of Citizens' Office and wants to renew his Identity Card, it is expected that the civil servant in that office should be able to advise the enquirer, "Sorry, this is not the office to come to. Will you please go next door to the National Registration Office? The officer there will be able to help you." This is expected of the civil servants and they are supposed to be helpful and courteous.

If the hon. Member knows of any particular case in which civil servants are rude or adopt a bureaucratic attitude, perhaps he can give the necessary details, preferably to the Parliamentary Secretary in charge of the particular Ministry or to the Minister, or even to the head of department.

On the question of communication between the various departments, the Government, as far as possible, tries to let its left hand know what its right hand is doing. Normally, correspondence is copied to another department that has an interest in the matter concerned.

On the question of the unavailability of the Instruction Manual, I can only say that, as far as I am aware, copies of this manual have been distributed to all Division I officers as well as those in the Executive grade for reference in the day-to-day administration. Sufficient copies have also been approved for issue to various Ministries and departments, and regular reviews are also made of the distribution of the Instruction Manual. Additional copies of the manual are approved for issue if a need for them is established.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Parliamentary Secretary will make a survey, he will certainly find that there is a shortage of the Instruction Manual In view of his explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1301.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, amendment (5) .

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving.

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo, amendment (6) .

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1401.

Sir, the point of this amendment is to seek information from the Parliamentary Secretary on the schedule of operation of this Training and Organisation Division. What is the nature of its operation? Does it provide its services to a Ministry on an application by the Ministry? Or has it got a schedule of movements whereby it visits the various Ministries in rotation? When did Organisation and Methods last visit the Ministry of Education?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Organisation and Methods Branch is responsible for providing the following services:

(1) conduct general reviews of all government machinery and departmental organisations;

(2) undertake detailed studies of specific problems of organisation and methods in Ministries and departments;

(3) review the designs and use of all forms in the civil service;

(4) advise on all questions involving office machines and equipment;

(5) undertake the drafting of administrative instructions.

The Branch operates on the basis that its services are available to all Permanent Secretaries and heads of departments on request. It offers advice and assistance and makes recommendations, not directions, for improving office efficiency. In practice, this means that if the head of any office wants advice from the Organisation and Methods Branch, he must ask for it. The Organisation and Methods Branch will not interfere with internal administration unless it is asked to help.

The Organisation and Methods - I shall call it "O. and M." in short - recognises that the problems of a small office are often as difficult as those of the larger ones. Priorities are given to an assignment where it is felt that "O. and M." can be of utmost assistance.

The stages of review of an assignment may be, for the information of Members, briefly stated as follows. The "O. and M." officer first establishes the objects of the organisation under review and then obtains agreement to terms of reference. He next collects the facts about the existing organisation and procedures. He records and analyses these facts. He draws conclusions from his study and tests these conclusions on the department. Finally he makes his recommendations on the remedies to be put into effect to overcome the shortcomings which his study has revealed.

4.45 p.m.

The last major assignment in the Ministry of Education was a review of the organisation and procedures of the Accounts Branch of the Ministry. A report was submitted in August 1965. Follow-up visits have been made of this and other assignments previously completed for the Ministry of Education. The last recorded visit to assist the Minister in implementing the "O. and M." recommendations was in September 1966.

Apart from the above major assignments, "O. and M." officers frequently visit the Ministry to advise on questions of office machines and equipment as well as on forms design. The latest visit made in this connection was on the 4th of December, 1968.

An "O. and M." officer is at present engaged on an assignment to review the organisation, procedures and equipment of the Ministry of Education Registry. This assignment commenced on the 8th of November, 1968, and fact-finding is still in progress.

Mr Rodrigo: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1431.

Mr Speaker, Sir, this subhead refers to the Political Study Centre for civil servants. It was set up when the People's Action Party came to power. I understand that the civil servants who receive training at this centre are mainly Divisions I and II officers. But Division III officers have not been asked to attend courses at this centre.

Generally speaking, Divisions I and II officers have fewer opportunities than Division III officers to come into contact with members of the public. Division III officers are not only required to be courteous to members of the public but they should also be made to understand better the problems confronting the people. For instance, officers employed in the Land Office and Resettlement Office have to visit certain areas to make on-the-spot investigations. Some people who have different political ideologies and different levels of understanding even call such officers "running dogs -of the P.A.P.". As a result, these officers may be deterred from carrying out their duties. They find themselves in a dilemma when they are subjected to abuses and they cannot get any redress.

As the Political Study Centre has been established to provide study ,courses for civil servants, why should not Division III officers who come into contact with the public be also given a chance to attend these courses? They -are not meant to brainwash the civil servants but to enable them to understand better the people and local conditions.

I imagine that the Political Study Centre should teach politics. Some Members of Parliament are not even known to the people. That is why more stress should be placed on the teaching of politics and current affairs.

Mr Lee Teck Him (Ulu Pandan): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to add something more to what the Member for Delta has said. We know that the civil servants are not always wrong. The Minister is always wrong.

There are various sections in the Ministry of National Development which carry out their official duties very harshly. They force people to move away from their homes. Who is responsible for this? It is the Minister who is responsible. Ours is a democratic country and it is no longer under colonial rule. If settlers do not want to move from a site, we should try persuasion. We should not chop down their houses. We should not send out teams of people to drive the occupiers out.

Also, some civil servants who are sent out to the rural areas steal rambutans. Does the Minister know about this? He certainly does not. If anything is amiss, it is the responsibility of the Minister. He should look into the matter and come up with an explanation.

Mr Low Yong Nguan (Crawford): Mr Speaker, Sir, may I take this opportunity of asking the Minister con cerned whether, in view of the new circumstances confronting Singapore, he will consider expanding the Political Study Centre to provide political courses for the civil servants. I believe that the Political Study Centre - as pointed out by the Member for Delta - was set up not long after the P.A.P. took over the administration of the State and its activities then were at their peak. I do not see refresher courses for many of the Division I administrative officers in various statutory boards, apart from superscale officers and those who assist directly in the formulation of government policies. They have not been given the opportunity to be informed of and trained for the changing circumstances that confront the Republic.

Therefore, may I know whether it is the intention of the Minister to provide the Political Study Centre with more facilities for the carrying out of its duties?

The Minister for Law and National Development (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Speaker, Sir, if I may refer to the allegations made by the Member for Ulu Pandan against officials of the Ministry of National Development. First, may I answer his question and tell him that, in my view, in the final analysis, it is the Minister who is responsible and not the civil servants. But my Ministry is not under discussion as yet. I will welcome from him further information giving particulars of rudeness from my officials. I cannot answer general statements in Parliament, but if he has specific instances, he can write to me, or, better, raise them here when the affairs of the Ministry of National Development will be discussed in a few days.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will chip in a little bit just to dispose of the matter raised by the Member for Ulu Pandan. He blames the Minister for the faults of civil servants. That is very correct. The Minister must ultimately be responsible for his particular department. However, as the Minister for Law and National Development has said, unless details of the facts are given, it is very difficult for him to deal with them.

May I also add that it is part of the democratic system that a Member of Parliament should also look after the people and that if he comes across instances of such behaviour by civil servants, like the plucking of rambutans from orchards without the permission of the owners, he should report them. In fact, he is duty bound to report such incidents. If he has not reported them, he has failed in his duty as a Member of Parliament and he has not done his duty to his constituents!

Mr Lee Teck Him rose -

The Chairman: Mr Tang, are you prepared to give way?

Mr Tang See Chim resumed his seat.

5.00 p.m.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance has said just now that I did not make a report of such an incident. I am reporting to Parliament now. This is the best opportunity so that even Mr Speaker himself

The Chairman: Mr Lee, what the Parliamentary Secretary would like you to do is to write to the appropriate Minister and say that on such and such a day, at such and such a time and at such and such a place, so and so, an employee in that Ministry, stole rambutans, or whatever else it is. That is what he means when he says a member must give details and make a report.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): That is right, Sir,I quite understand you. But he said I did not report and therefore I was not doing my duty. But I am reporting to Parliament. Am I right?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, to answer the Member for Delta and the Member for Crawford. Owing to the limited time and staff available, the Political Study Centre had been concentrating on Divisions I and II officers first where the greatest impact can be made. Although it was not possible to give such training to Division III officers generally, the Political Study Centre did conduct courses of lectures at the Police Training School, the Teachers' Training College and the Nurses' Training School. Where the problem was acute, a special course would be arranged, as in the case of the P.U.B. meter readers.

The Government is aware of the situation that civil servants should understand and be alive to the situation obtaining in the country. They are given training in the constitutional structure of the country and in political ideologies as opposed to party political ideas.

On the general example quoted by the Member for Delta regarding resettlement officers going down to the rural areas and being scolded as puppets of the P.A.P., the officer concerned should know what he is doing. We cannot, of course, train him in party political ideas. What we can train him in is the general political set-up of the country -- the constitutional structure. All civil servants have a knowledge, or at least they should have, of their place in the political set-up. Simply because they have been scolded by somebody in the rural area, they should not give up doing what they are there to do. This is, of course, a very general sort of example. Perhaps the Member concerned can give particulars to the Minister for National Development who will no doubt look into the matter.

On the Member for Crawford's idea of increasing facilities at the Political Study Centre, of course, the Government is always alive to the demands. I have no doubt that if the demands justify the extension of facilities, such extension would be made.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I think this is a convenient point at which to take the suspension.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I suspend the sitting of the House now and will take the Chair again at half-past five o'clock.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.05 p.m. until 5.30 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.30 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong

(8) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1501.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, amendment (8) .

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving.

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy, amendment (9) .

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1519.

Sir, may I know the reason why it has been possible to abolish two posts of watchmen? The post carries a small salary. Can the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance clarify?

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, the two watchmen's posts were abolished as the store at River Valley Road has been closed. The premises have now been taken over by the Economic Development Board. The two persons affected have been transferred to the Ministry of Education.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2005*.

*The same amendment also stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Sir, this sum is a subsidy to the Housing and Development Board. I notice that there is half a million dollars increase after providing for the first quarter of 1970. I would have thought that the subsidy would have been reduced considerably since new flats and some existing ones have been offered for sale to the public and to existing tenants. I would like to have the Minister's comments on this.

The other point is on the standardisation of rentals paid by Housing Board tenants. The Old Kallang Airport Housing Estate is in my constituency. The Housing Board tenants there are paying three different rentals, and I suppose it is the same with the other housing estates. In the Old Kallang Airport Estate, for a one-room flat, the different rentals are $20, $25 and $40.

The Chairman: Order. Mr Ng, I do not think it is quite fair to expect the Minister for Finance or his Parliamentary Secretary to answer questions of detail concerning the Housing and Development Board in a vote for a subsidy under the Head "Ministry of Finance".

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I only want the Minister to know so that he can raise this anomaly with the Housing Board.

For a two-room flat, the rentals are $35, $46.50 and $60. For a three-room flat, the different rentals are $55, $66.50 and $75.

I hope the Minister for Finance can look into this.

The Chairman: Madam Chan.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Sir, I am not speaking.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, the budgeted provision of $10,333,750 is to cover a 15-month period from January 1969 to March 1970. The original estimated subsidy for 1969 was $8.2 million as against $7.8 million for 1968, which includes some $1.7 million (comprising $1 million for designing and supervising the erection of new buildings, $0.1 million for management of housing estates and $0.6 million for loan charges) representing the proposed accelerated building programme to be implemented to offset the effects of British forces withdrawal.

This estimated subsidy was also computed before the decision allowing for the use of C.P.F. balances and contributions to purchase flats under the home ownership scheme and provided for estimated sales of 4,000 units of flats in 1969. To date, more than 4,200 C.P.F. contributors have applied to purchase flats with C.P.F. money and expected sales for 1969 are 10,000 units of flats - 5,000 new units and 5,000 existing units.

Furthermore, loans to the Housing and Development Board are at 7� per cent interest per annum. But flat purchasers are only charged 6� per cent per annum on loans taken to buy flats under the home ownership scheme.

On the question of subsidy generally, the major portion is in respect of one- and two-room flats let for rent, whereas flats sold are principally of the three-room type as one- and two-room units are not easily salable. As long as the level of one- and two-room flats let for rent remains as at present - 29,000 one-room units and 25,000 two-room units -the subsidy level will continue. But if the numbers of one- and two-room units that are at present rented are increased, the subsidy will have to increase.

On the question of the differential in rentals raised by the Member for Mountbatten, it is, as you have rightly observed, Mr Speaker, Sir, not a matter which I am in a position to answer. All I can now say is that the differential may be due to the difference between the improved and the old types of flats. I would suggest that the Member for Mountbatten approach the Ministry of National Development and no doubt they will look into this matter. This is not passing the buck, Sir,If he likes, I can always enquire for him.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker. Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2102.

Sir, it is noted that the sum of $10,000 was estimated for the losses of public money and stores for 1968 and $12,500 is estimated for 1969. May I know from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance whether the sum of $10,000 allocated for this year was, in fact, lost and how the sum of $12,500 is going to be lost next year?

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, the provision for losses of public money and stores is for the writing-off of losses which are unavoidable in any government structure. The vote is used for the write-off of irrecoverables, advances and salaries overpaid in cases of vacation of office, dismissals, etc. It is also used for the writing-off of loss of stamps, loss through foreign exchange, theft and the like. Where the loss is attributed to negligence, the officer concerned is asked to make good the loss or he is surcharged. Where the loss cannot be attributed to negligence, as, for instance, where there is a theft or a small fire, it is necessary for accounting purposes to write off the loss, and hence the provision in this vote.

The Member for Anson must understand that in a big government structure, these incidents must occur. It is just like an insurance. Why should the Member for Anson pay his premium against accidents to his car? If he knows when an accident is going to occur, he can easily avoid the accident. Then why pay the premium? The same principle applies here. Because of the big government structure, the law

The Minister for Communications (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): The law of averages!

Mr Tang See Chim: Yes, the law of averages, as the Minister for Communications said - the law of averages works. Certain cases are bound to happen because of the large number of transactions that are going on, and this provision is just like a premium for an insurance.

The Chairman: I think the best answer is to put the Member for Anson on the Public Accounts Committee !

Mr P. Govindaswamy: In view of the Parliamentary Secretary's reply, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3003.

Sir, I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary whether the sum of $375,000 is to be spent on trade fairs and exhibitions in Singapore or other countries, and what are the fairs he has in mind.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, a substantial part of the sum of $375,000 will be spent on fairs overseas. It will be spent as follows:

(1) the Second Asian International Trade Fair in Teheran - estimated sum is $200,000; and

(2) other fairs overseas - $150,000.

5.45 p.m.

The second Asian International Trade Fair to be held in Teheran in 1969 would be on the same scale as the First Asian International Fair held in Bangkok in 1966 in which Singapore participated and on which a total sum of over $140,000 was spent. It is estimated that our participation in the Teheran Fair will cost about $200,000, considering the additional transportation charges and the corresponding increase in expenditure to be incurred in setting up and maintaining the Singapore Pavilion at that fair. Furthermore, the number of Government representatives to the fair will have to be increased because we do not have any diplomatic staff in Teheran, as we have in Bangkok, to provide the necessary assistance.

The rest of the provision is reserved for other trade fairs. Plans have not yet been finalised on the number and type of fairs in which we will be parti cipating in 1969. Participation in each fair will be determined, among other things, by the response from local manufacturers and traders as well as the benefits which might be expected from such participation. For instance, we are currently considering invitations to participate in the 33rd International Exhibition Market for handicraft pro ducts in Florence as well as the Tripoli and Sydney Trade Fairs which are organised on an international scale.

As existing industries get organised and get over that teething stage and more export-oriented industries go into operation, increasing emphasis will have to be placed on participation in inter national trade fairs. Participation in such international and specialised trade fairs in 1969 is being organised by the Export Promotion Centre with the advice and help of the Trade Division of the Ministry of Finance. Plans have been drawn up to encourage local manufacturers to participate actively in important specialised trade fairs, especially those in Eastern Europe, for example, the Moscow Clothing Fair. At this juncture of our industrialisation, it is important for the Government to encourage industrialists and exporters to participate in trade fairs by meeting part of the expenses.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the detailed explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3072.

Sir, the provision of this vote of $1� million is for the purchase of property for overseas missions for the next financial year. In the Committee of Supply in December last year, the Minister for Finance gave information on properties purchased for some of the overseas missions. Will the Minister again inform this House what other properties have been bought or will be bought for the other overseas missions?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, with the establishment of missions abroad, nine properties have so far been purchased and 17 properties have been acquired on lease. Two properties were purchased in 1967. They were: -

(1) the residence for the High Commissioner in Kuala Lumpur for the sum of $325,000;

(2) the residence for the Ambassador in Washington for the sum of $400,783.

As more missions are to be established, it is necessary to make provision for the purchase or rental of properties.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Lim Cheng Lock -

(14) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3074.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock (Kampong Kapor): I am not moving, Sir.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong

(15) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0401 be reduced by $100.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving, Sir.

The sum of $121,694,340 for Head 0401 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0403 -

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0403 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2202.

Sir, the purpose of this amendment is to seek information from the Minister concerned why this large sum of money is being allocated under this subhead for the next financial year.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, I am pleased to give the information to the Member for Changi who has raised this question. It is part of a very large scheme and the Ministry of Finance will play a part in encouraging savings to mobilise what is known as "domestic savings" with which we will be able to encourage the development of the country. A committee was formed composed of members from the Ministry of Finance and the Post Office Savings Bank. We were also able to secure the services of three other gentlemen, one of whom is the Member for Havelock and Mr Tan Teck Chwee and Mr Han Fang Kong.

As a result of this committee's findings, it was decided, among other things, to encourage students in our schools to develop the habit of savings. As from next year, every Secondary I student who is able to save $5 in his own account will get a gift of $5 from Government. This $5 is the maximum. Of course, if a Secondary I student has a well-to-do parent and is prepared to put $100 into the Postal Savings Bank, the Government will give him $5 and stop there, and not $100. We anticipate that for each year there may be as many as 45,000 Secondary I students. So at the rate of $5 per student, we are quite hopeful that we will probably get 100 per cent of Secondary I students putting in $5 each into the Post Office Savings Bank. The Government will then have to provide a sum of $225,000 for one year, and as the Budget is for a period of 15 months, the provision is now $281,250. But there is a little catch to this. When Government gives $5, it does not mean that the very next day the boy concerned can draw -out $10. The catch, Sir, is that we will freeze this $10 for the next five years.

Mr Ho See Beng (Bras Basah): It is a racket!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: It is not a racket. I think this is to teach secondary school children how to save for some time and, of course, that money is being used by Government for development. A pupil can draw the $10 out one year after he finishes his Secondary IV examination, or when he leaves school if he is a pre-University II student.

That is the reason for this provision of $281,250.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, after 5 years how much will the interest be?

The Chairman: It will need a computer to work it out.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, the interest rate is four per cent per annum and it is free from income tax.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0403 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2307.

Sir, this is a provision of $15,000 for the next financial year in the form of contributions to the Singapore Association for the Deaf and Dumb which provides welfare and care for the deaf and dumb people in Singapore.

It is worthy to mention that the Association has also been running a Deaf and Dumb School in Mountbatten Road, which is in my constituency, for many, many years. I understand the school is only for primary education. These deaf and dumb children, if given proper training, can live as useful lives as other children. It is regretted that they receive only primary education in this school and no facilities are provided for them for further education.

Sometime this year I was invited to witness the first investiture of deaf cub-scouts held by this School for the Deaf and Dumb and I observed that these children had done fairly well. The principal of this School informed me that the Association has a plan to build a school for vocational training for deaf and dumb children so that they can make their own living.

Sir, may I know from the Government whether there is any plan to provide a plot of land to build a vocational school for these deaf and dumb children, and also whether the Government can contribute towards the cost of building such a school to be managed by the Association for the Deaf and Dumb?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Affairs (Mr Chan Chee Seng): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Association for the Deaf and Dumb is given an annual grant of $12,000 in order to carry out its objectives, namely, to provide educational and welfare services for the deaf and dumb. Besides the monetary grant of $12,000 given to the Association, the Government also pays the personal emoluments of the following staff who are seconded to the schools using oral and signs methods:

(a) Nine qualified teachers;

(b) Five instructors; and

(c) One Assistant instructor.

The gross monthly salaries of these personnel amount to approximately $85,000 a year.

There are 100 pupils in the Oral School and another hundred in the Sign School. These pupils are divided into 18 classes ranging from preparatory classes to Primary VI.

6.00 p.m.

It is admitted that the setting up of a vocational wing in the school will help the deaf and dumb to become useful citizens. At present, the school has allocated a small class-room for training in carpentry work. Expansion of its vocational activities has been limited because of absence of space. The Association had, as early as 1967, submitted an application to Government for a lease of land of approximately 50,000 square feet adjacent to its school premises in Mountbatten Road for the purpose of building a Vocational Training Centre and Workshop. Since there is a scarcity of land in Singapore, particularly in the Mountbatten Road area, the Ministry has advised the Association that it would not be possible to recommend its application for such a large piece of land and that to cater for the vocational training of the deaf and dumb, it should look into the possibility of expanding the existing school upwards instead of constructing new buildings on additional land. If such upward expansion could not be feasible, the Association was also advised to consider other alternatives such as:

(a) Operating its school in two sessions, as is done in Government schools, thereby freeing a section of the school for vocational training; or

(b) Renting suitable premises elsewhere; or

(c) Scaling down its land requirements to approximately 10,000 square feet, which is considered sufficient for a three-storey building with dimensions of approximately 160 feet long and 30 feet wide.

The Association has been so informed of the alternatives, and detailed proposals by the Association are awaited before a recommendation is made for 10,000 square feet of land adjacent to the existing school to be leased for building the Vocational Training Centre and Workshop.

In regard to funds for building the Vocational Training Centre and Workshop, it is understood that the Association has already raised about $250,004 for its building fund. It is considered that this sum would be adequate for the building of the Vocational Training Centre and Workshop on the land leased from the Government. Since the Government is already providing financial assistance to the Association., by way of $12,000 as an annual grant, and approximately $84,000 a year to meet the salaries of the teaching staff' in both the Oral and Sign Schools run by the Association, it will be difficult to justify any further increases in financial assistance to the Association.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: I regret to, hear that no further assistance can be given to the Association. In spite of this, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head D403 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2314.

Sir, this subhead concerns "Contributions to Sports Organisations". The purpose of this amendment is to seek from the Minister information on how this amount will be apportioned among the sports bodies, whether there is a basis of apportionment as such, and whether this basis takes into consideration factors like the mass following of the sports and the fact that some sports bring in a certain amount of revenue to the Government.

Mr Chan Chee Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, contributions to sports organisations are normally made only for those bodies which take part in the Pesta Sukan. For those sports organisations which have invited foreign competitors, the contributions given to them are based on the cost of accommodation of the foreign competitors during the period of the Pesta Sukan. Over the last three years, $25,000 has been allotted each year as grants to the various voluntary sports organisations. The grants range from $3,500 to $100.

In addition to such grants to sports organisations participating in the Pesta Sukan, sports organisations which go abroad to take part in international competitions are given one-quarter of the total expenses subject to a maximum of $1,500 in each case.

Grants are also made to the Singapore Olympic Sports Council when Singapore sends out its national teams to participate at international games. In 1966, at the Commonwealth Games at Kingston, $50,000 was given as a grant to the S.O.S.C. For the Asian and Ganefo Games at Bangkok and Phnom Penh in the same year, $100,000 was given as a grant to the Singapore Olympic Sports Council and the Singapore Sports Council. For the 1967 Seap Games at Bangkok, a sum of $73,000 was given to the S.O.S.C. and for the 1968 Olympic Games at Mexico, $14,000 was given as a grant to the S.O.S.C.

In order to meet these grants to the S.O.S.C. to enable our national team to compete at the international games mentioned above, the Sports Division of this Ministry had to raise these funds by way of appeals for donations from the commercial sector, charity film premiers, donation draws, variety shows, dances and other fund-raising events. In 1966, a sum of $250,000 was raised and in 1967 the sum raised was $203,000. This year, a sum of $113,000 has been collected.

Mr Rodrigo: In view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0403 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2651.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Republic of Singapore is now better known to the world since its independence. The increase in this vote is obviously due to more active participation in international organisations' activities. The information that I wish to seek is, to which respective international organisations the sum so provided in this vote will be paid, and the respective amounts?

Perhaps the Minister for Finance has the answers, though the expenditure will be incurred for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Inche A. Rahim Ishak): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Mount batten was rather concerned about the expenditure to be incurred under subhead 2651 of Head 0403 because we are now an independent state. The truth is that some of the expenditure has been recurring over many years in the past, long before we became a separate inde pendent state, before we were in Malaysia, and even before we were a self-governing state. I think some items date from the days of British rule. However, it is true - as the Member said - that since we became independent there has been an increase in our contributions to international organisations.

As hon. Members can see, the contributions are made in respect of our international obligations - I think that is a technical cliche used to get away with this expenditure - and in the majority of cases, the work of these international bodies, I can assure the Member for Mountbatten, has been of benefit to our Republic either directly or indirectly. I was hoping, Mr Speaker, Sir, that he would not ask me to list out all of them - there are 17 of them. And he also asked me for the respective amounts of the contributions we have made. Since he has already asked the questions, I cannot run away from them.

First, we contribute $30,000 annually to the International Civil Aviation Organisation, $25,000 to the International Atomic Energy Commission and $215,000 to the Regular Budget of the United Nations, $7,000 to the World Meteorological Organisation, $6,000 to the United Nations Relief Works Agency, $55,000 to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organi sation (better known as UNESCO), $98,000 to the World Health Organisation, $215,000 to the United Nations Regular Budget and Working Capital Fund. For the information of the Member for Mountbatten, may I also state that under this head of $215,000 which goes to the United Nations Regular Budget and Working Capital Fund, a small amount of money comes back annually in the way of return air passages for five delegates to the General Assembly of the United Nations to which you, Mr Speaker, Sir, once went as a delegate and I myself recently attended. The eighth international organisation on which we are obligated to spend some money is the Inter-Governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation. We pay $15,000 for that. We contribute $5,000 to the International Customs Tariff Bureau, $5,000 to the Commonwealth Scientific Committee, $255,000 to the United Nations Development Programme, $8,000 to the Permanent Southeast Asian Ministers of Education Secretariat, $60,000 to the Commonwealth Foundation, only $500 to the Asian Highway Project, $10,500 to the United Nations Emergency Force (Special Account), $20,000 to the Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (better known as ECAFE). Lastly, the seventeenth international organisation to which we contribute is the United Nations Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus, including the Refugee Relief Fund in the Middle East, particularly territories occupied by Israel, and other ad hoc payments - $35,000. All these contributions amount to $850,000.

A further $212,500 has been provided for, being, of course, the 25 per cent of the total of $850,000 to take into account the new fiscal year which will run from the 1st of January, 1969, to the 31st of March, 1970.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: I thank the Minister for his information. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $11,280,810 for Head 0403 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

6.15 p.m.

Head 0405 -

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0405 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2013.

Sir, I refer to the extremely poor conditions under which customers at Government-run toddy shops drink their toddy. Sir, I am not a customer myself.

An hon. Member: Who knows!

Mr Sim Boon Woo: But anyone driving along Dunearn Road can see from the road what the conditions at the Government-run toddy shop there are like. The premises are old and in poor condition. The roof has a zinc extension and under this, the customers sit on long benches which have no back rest. The area has no walls and the customers have no privacy. These are conditions which the colonial Government had considered to be suitable for Indian labourers. These conditions need to be improved.

Sir, today as we pass the Government toddy shops, we can see many non-Indian customers. The Ministry must improve conditions for all customers at these Government toddy shops.

Singapore now exports canned toddy. If a tourist visiting Singapore wants to try fresh toddy, where can he go? Toddy is an all-Singapore drink. It is revenue-producing. As it produces revenue, why cannot some of it be used not only for the maintenance of toddy shops but also for the improvement and innovation of the shops and the provision of better facilities?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture (Mr Fong Sip Chee): What about opening toddy shops?

Mr Sim Boon Woo: If the shops are made more respectable and comfortable, they might also attract middle-class customers. All this will also benefit my constituency, which is Changi, where many coconut trees are grown.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Government has provided sufficient benches for the drinkers' comfort. There are also toilet facilities for them. If the customers do not prefer the benches, they can drink while standing or move about in the open spaces provided for them.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: That is primitive!

Mr Tang See Chim: Food-stalls are also available at each toddy shop for their drinking pleasure. So far the system seems to be working satisfactorily and no specific requests have been received for any improvement.

As far as the question of attracting tourists is concerned, I think the Member is barking up the wrong tree. Mr Speaker, Sir, tourists do not go for toddy. In any case, there is canned toddy. If tourists do want to visit a toddy shop, possibly they might like the atmosphere. To them it may be quaint. That may be the attraction. If you improve it and make it look like an ordinary coffee shop or an ordinary cafe, it may cease to be an attraction.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $7,713,640 for Head 0405 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0406 -

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Mr Speaker, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Mr Speaker, Sir, it is a well-known fact that with the rapid development of Singapore, land values have tended to increase over the past few years. The question is whether our Property Tax Department has done anything to revalue properties to reflect the increased value of landed properties. To my mind, a periodic revaluation by the Property Tax Department is logical, so that taxes on properties will be realistic and not be based on values which no longer apply.

Mr Speaker, Sir, another criticism I have to level at the Property Tax Department is the considerable delay it takes to assess the values of properties of new housing estates. It may take as long as two or three years. When the assessment is finally made, the property owner may sometimes be required to pay two or three years' assessments in one lump sum. Besides the hardship this would cause to the property owner, the delay in the collection of property tax may result in a loss of Government revenue.

Sir, the delay in assessing property values in new housing estates and the failure to revalue properties to reflect the current land values may be due to a lack of sufficient technical staff in the Property Tax Department.

Sir, according to the 1968 Estimates under Head 0406, subheads 1101 to 1133, there are only 58 technical staff in the Property Tax Department, and the question arises whether this complement of staff is adequate to carry out the technical duties. Sir, it is my view that if the technical staff of valuers and assessment officers of the Property Tax Department is increased, it will not only result in speedier assessment of property values, leading thereby to the quicker collection of property tax, but also allow for a periodic revaluation of landed properties, leading to increased Government revenue.

Sir, again I find it difficult to believe that all people who are liable to income tax actually pay tax. I would like the Inland Revenue Department to make every effort to see that all those who earn taxable incomes pay income tax. It is no use saying, "Give us the information," because I just do not know what a person's income is. But every body knows that hawkers and stallholders and others who are operating on a big scale make a lot of money. Take pirate taxi operators, for instance. When their vehicles are confiscated, they buy back their vehicles and go into business again. Surely they cannot do this unless they earn $500 or $600 a month. As another example, take the case of the big food-stall owners. They look prosperous. If you watch them at their stalls, you can see that they do a roaring trade. As I say, I cannot give information on individuals. I can only speak from general impressions. But the Commissioner of Inland Revenue has the power and he must exercise it. Sir, I would like the Minister's or the Parliamentary Secretary's assurance that all this is being done and that everyone who is liable to tax actually pays tax.

Sir, I beg to move.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I would like to underline the observations of the Member for Changi in respect of the artificial valuation of premises which still obtains these days. In my constituency, the number of about 800 service lettings has been reduced to about 150, leaving house owners the choice of either selling their property or renting it out at competitive rates. However much they would like to rent out their premises to "locals" at competitive rates, they would find that it would be a losing proposition on their part because of the artificially high valuation which still obtains today in respect of their premises. If a genuine reassessment of valuation could be made and the proper level of value of the premises obtained, then I think we would get proper rentals and the local inhabitants would benefit from this situation.

Mr Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, I for my part would like to underline the observations of the Member for Changi in respect of the collection of income tax. The latest available Annual Report of Inland Revenue Department is that for 1965 which was presented to Parliament in May 1968. From this report, we may glean that the number of resident individual taxpayers in Singapore for the year of assessment 1965 was approximately 73,000.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

6.29 p.m.

Mr Conceicao: Page 49 of the Annual Report refers. This may be compared with the 65,000 taxpayers mentioned in page 43. This 65,000 is the number of resident individual taxpayers for the year 1964. If I may make a rough projection from these figures to 1967, counting an annual increase of 8,000 or so, we get a figure of about 90,000 individual resident income taxpayers.

6.30 p.m.

From the Year Book of Statistics for 1967, at page 12, the estimated population figure in Singapore for people between the ages of 20 and 49 for 1967 is 670,000. Let us deduct from this figure the figure for 1967 for workmen, clerks, industrial clerks, shop assistants, namely, 213,700. I got this figure from the Year Book of Statistics for 1967. Deducting this 213,700 from 670,000, we get the figure of 456,300. From this figure, let us further deduct 72,350, being the number of persons registered as at the end of 1967 on the Employment Exchange. We get a balance of about 384,000 people. Making a further allowance for half of this number to be females, we get a balance of 192.000. There seems to me to be a discrepancy between this figure of 192,000 and 90,000 people as my projected number of people who had to pay income tax for 1967. Possibly I stand to be advised on this matter. The basis of my arithmetic may have certain shortcomings. But even if further deductions have to be made, an impression is created in my mind that there may be large numbers of people who escape paying income tax although they would belong to a category of people who would be eligible to pay if their income could be assessed.

May I say that this impression is substantiated by the thought in the minds of the people in Singapore, including the Member for Changi. People in Singapore, foreign personnel as well as our own people, think that that is, in fact, the case, namely, that people who may be eligible for income tax do not square up.

Sir, the Minister for Finance has commented, if my recollection is correct, that the figure of $500,000, which will accrue from the 5 per cent levy on P.U.B. consumers whose bills are between $10 and $20, is not to be sneezed at. Presumably, a similar or larger figure, if it could be collected from people who currently do not pay income tax but who would be eligible to pay if their income could be assessed, is not to be sneezed at either.

The Minister for Finance has also advised Government departments which are operating on a so to speak stand still budget to develop self-help procedures, if I may describe them as such, to earn more money for the departments. May I suggest, Sir, that the Inland Revenue Department follow this excellent advice.

Sir, a good income tax collector may be worth his weight in gold to the Republic.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Hear, hear!

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, I shall first deal with the question of property tax as raised by the Members for Changi and Serangoon Gardens. A study is being made in the Ministry with a view to revising and rationalising, as I said the other day, the annual values as well as the rates of property tax. At present, the Property Tax Department is grossly understaffed, and when the necessary recruitment is done, things should get better.

As far as income tax is concerned, it is agreed that all persons who earn sufficient money to be liable to income tax should pay tax. Under the Ordinance, a person liable to income tax charges is required to submit a return of his income. This procedure applies whether the person involved is a hawker or a pirate taxi-driver. If there is information reaching the Income Tax Department that such persons are evading tax or are liable to tax, the normal procedure of calling them to submit the information is followed.

Mr Conceicao: Point of clarification, Sir.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, does the member want me to clarify what I have spoken? I am coming to his question. Anyway, I am prepared to give way.

Mr Conceicao: Sir, what I meant was that perhaps the onus of finding out who are evading the payment of income tax in the way I described should be on the Commissioner of Inland Revenue.

Mr Tang See Chim: Sir, a person who, in the opinion of the Commissioner of Inland Revenue, is liable to tax will be sent a form and he has got to fill it up accordingly. Even if he does not earn any income, he has got to make a nil return. And then, according to the return, if the Commissioner of Inland Revenue has information that he has, in fact, got income which is taxable, he will be called on to pay the tax. If he tries to evade, he will be charged in court.

I am afraid I will not be able to dispute the figures quoted by the Member for Katong. I do not know how he arrived at the projection of 90,000 persons. Perhaps he should look at the definition of these figures. It could be that they mean individual residents, then people who are partners in a trading firm or if they are sole proprietors, perhaps they would not be included. I am not quite sure because I am not conversant with the figures. But I will look into them.

In any case, the Member should bear in mind that our tax rates are such that unless a person, who has a wife and two children, earns more than $500 a month, he will not be liable to tax. If that is the case, he will not be included in the figures the Member has just quoted. In fact, it is quite dangerous to base one's calculations simply on the population figure and then refer to the report for 1965 and make one's own projections. Anybody can make his own projections. He projects it to 90,000 and I can project it to 120,000. He would not be able to say that my projection is wrong and that his is right.

Mr Conceicao: Point of clarification, Sir,I did mention when I spoke just now that the projection was based on the fact that the difference between the 1964 and 1965 totals for resident individuals paying tax was 8,000. It is not a question of anybody making any projection at all. I did say that the basis of my arithmetic may have certain shortcomings. But the impression - and this is what I am trying to establish - is that there are people who would be eligible to pay income tax but who do not pay it, unless the Parliamentary Secretary is prepared to come out and say categorically that there is no such class of people.

Mr Tang See Chim: I think I would be very foolhardy to make such a statement, Sir. However fine the net, some will definitely escape.

May I also draw the Member for Katong's attention to the fact that 1965 was immediately after the ending of confrontation. So the projection of an increase of 8,000 persons a year may not be right because the economy was buoyant for the years 1966, 1967 and 1968. Surely we are dealing with very technical matters. I think we might as well wait for the latest report. However, if the Member for Katong would like to discuss this matter further, I am quite prepared. As I said, Sir, it is quite impossible for me at the moment to say whether his figures are right or wrong. I can only throw some light on the basis of how the figures are arrived at, and also to say that not every able-bodied person in Singapore has got to pay income tax even if he is employed. Because of our Government's socialist principles, we do not tax those who cannot bear it. The tax net does not pull in anybody with an income lower than $500 with two children and a wife to support.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour (Mr Sia Kah Hui): Sir, I was just a little bit surprised to hear the Member for Changi saying that the Property Tax Department is rather slow in assessing new houses. From personal experience, I think I have got to come to the defence of the Department. I have moved into a new house and, within two months, the assessment papers came, even before the certificate of fitness was received. For one year now, I have been living in a house and paying property tax without a certificate of fitness. I do not think the Property Tax Department are slow. I think they are very alert. I am speaking from personal experience. But the experience of the Member may be different.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, he is a Member of Parliament. Not only that, Sir, he is also the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour! That is the reason why the Department pulled up their socks in his case!

I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. He agreed that the Property Tax Department is under-staffed. Then why not do something about it? We need money for defence. We are imposing a levy on P.U.B. bills. Why not speed up the valuation and revaluation of properties so that we can collect more revenue?

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

6.45 p.m.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: At the same time, the Parliamentary Secretary says, "Wait for information." Who is going to give information if the Commissioner of Inland Revenue does not want to send his men around to look for information? I am not going to tell how much the Member for Anson is earning because I do not know. It is the duty of the Commissioner to do something about it.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: You know very well how much I am earning.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: Sir, although I am not satisfied. I would like to give the Parliamentary Secretary a chance. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1004.

Sir, for the Inland Revenue Department to have four legal officers in addition to a senior legal officer makes it a branch of the Attorney-General's Chambers. May I be enlightened by the Minister on the duties of these four legal officers?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, as usual, Members of Parliament would like to have their cake and eat it too. I was hoping that the Member for Changi would rise and say something on this amendment but, of course, he conveniently keeps quiet. The Member for Changi criticises us for not recruiting staff for the Department of Inland Revenue and says that the people who should pay tax were not taxed. We are, in fact, recruiting staff. The posts of two legal officers for the Inland Revenue Department have been increased to four and the Member for Anson criticises us for increasing the number of posts. I think there is also a further amendment by the Member for Anson querying the increase in the number of posts of Assistant Examiners. So they must make up their minds what they want the Government to do. They cannot have their cake and eat it too.

Mr Sim Boon Woo: I do not have the same idea as the Member for Anson has. The Parliamentary Secretary should not make a mistake.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, to answer the Member for Anson, the work load relating to the legal aspects of taxation has increased very considerably over the year. More sophisticated legislation has been introduced, particularly the provisions for incentives. The amount of litigation has also increased. There are more instances where counsel are employed by the taxpayers.

Records in the department show that the increase in revenue arising from the utilisation of legal officers concentrating on income tax and property tax matters, is a handsome reward compared to the additional emoluments involved. This should he comfortable news to the Member for Changi.

While the Attorney-General's Chambers provide general legal advice, it is desirable to have a legal officer in certain departments where highly specialised and technical interpretations of the law are required. Sir, you will agree that the income tax law is a very technical and specialised branch of the law and, therefore, the increase of these two posts is necessary.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1045.

There is an increase of 41 Assistant Examiners over the present establishment of 87. This is an increase of about 50 per cent. Why is there such a sudden increase in staff in one year? In the light of the Government's tightening up of expenditure, may 1 know from the Minister why it is necessary to increase the complement of Assistant Examiners by such a large number? Furthermore, is there an increase in the income proportionate to the increase in expenditure?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, the work load has increased so much that it is considered short-sighted to economise on the staff of the Inland Revenue Department. The work of this department has increased since it took on these responsibilities - the provision of economic incentives legislation, the amendments to the Income Tax Act and the increasing number of double-taxation agreements. All these add to the complexities of the administration of the Income Tax Act. The requirements of the department had not been adequate earlier on, and after a thorough study it was decided that, having regard to the needs of the department, it was essential to increase the number of staff. Further increases may be necessary as requirements change.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1101.

Sir, this concerns the over-taxation of properties in the rural areas. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance told us just now that the Gov ernment practises socialism, that is, the rich people should pay more tax and the poor people should pay less tax. The officials of the department concerned should understand this principle.

Many people in the rural areas have complained to me that the taxes they pay to the Government are far too high. Let me quote an example. A house with four rooms is assessed at $1,000 a year and 16 per cent of this is $160. So the owner has to pay more than $10 monthly. Compare this rate of assessment with that of a three-room Housing and Development Board flat, which is about $13 to $14 per month. I think the officials in the department have not been very careful when assessing the values of these houses in the rural areas. They merely make arbitrary assessments. As a result, inconvenience is caused to the people who have to run around looking for Members of Parliament to write letters for them requesting for a reduction in the assessment. Some of these requests were acceded to, but only after repeated attempts had been made. I hope the officials in the department will understand the principle of taxation of our Government. When dealing with poor people in the rural areas, they should be more considerate and understanding.

It is provided that the owner of an attap house has to pay $6 a year, but some of these attap houses have crumbling roofs and walls due to old age and therefore in need of repairs and renovations. But after renovation these houses were no longer treated as attap houses. The officials would treat them as plank or wooden houses. This is not reasonable because when a house is in a dilapidated condition it has to be repaired. Without repairs how can people go on living in dilapidated attap houses?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, the annual value of a property is based upon the rental that it can let out for a year. This is a statutory requirement. However, in the assessment of properties in the rural areas, the values are, in fact, considerably lower than those of the same properties in the city area. Besides, the people in the rural area pay a lower rate of assessment than those in the city area. On this score, I do not think the Member for Sembawang can complain.

On the question of concessionary rates for attap houses, the rate of $6 is still granted, on application, to owner-occupiers of dwelling houses made of wood and attap. If the roof of a house needs replacement because of wear and tear, the owner-occupier should bear in mind to replace it with attap instead of zinc. If he decides to renovate it and make extensions to the house, as is normally done in the rural areas, how can he complain when an official of the Property Tax Department reassesses the property and raises the annual value? In this case the character of the property is changed and it can be let out at a higher rental than before.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not satisfied with the explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary. I have received many complaints regarding this matter from the people. They have gone through stresses and strains caused by the officials and something should be done about it. The people have spent a lot of money and time trying to remedy the situation caused by the officials' bad handling of the matter. They have gone through a lot of unnecessary trouble.

I agree that it is fair and reasonable to continue to charge a rate of $6 a year after repairs have been carried out to attap houses, but I think the Government should follow the principle by carrying out the job. However, although I have said I am not satisfied with the explanation of the Parliamentary Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy -

(5) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1191.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I am not moving.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (6) .

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2030.

Sir, may the Minister enlighten me on the kind of services being rendered or expected to be rendered by the Malaysian Government?

7.00 p.m.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, this is for services rendered by the Malaysian Government in connection with the collection of income tax due to the Singapore Government by persons or companies resident in Malaysia prior to the 1st of January, 1966. This is in respect of cases which have not been finalised and which are still under investigation or study. The separate assessment of tax was effected as from the 1st of January, 1966.

It is a reciprocal arrangement with the Malaysian Government and it has worked out satisfactorily. So far, the sum for such services paid by the Malaysian Government to the Singapore Government has exceeded the sum paid by the Singapore Government to the Malaysian Government, except in 1968. It is expected, however, that this year the sum to be paid to the Malaysian Government may exceed the sum that we can get in return. The sum in excess cannot be accurately assessed at the moment. Hence the provision of the token vote of $10.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3014*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Lim Cheng Lock.

Sir, the evasion of income tax is not uncommon in every country. Efforts have been carried out by every government to track down tax-dodgers. Our Republic cannot be an exception in this respect. It is now the opportune time for our Government to set up the Anti-Evasion Unit by tapping the knowledge of U.S.A. tax experts.

At this particular moment, when our country is facing economic problems of a magnitude not known in the history of Singapore, we must endeavour to seek ways and means not only to counter the economic recession as a result of the British withdrawal from Singapore, but also to encourage and promote greater economic growth in both the public and private sectors. Therefore, in the public sector, the Government needs large sums of money for public redevelopment as well as for building up the defence capability. Hence it is only natural for our entrepreneurs, as loyal citizens of our country, to shoulder their burden by honestly paying their taxes which are due to the Government, while they enjoy prosperity and live in safety here. It is to be borne in mind that we are not a recipient country of any financial aid from any donor country. We always stand on our own feet and our future will depend on our own efforts. Therefore, we cannot afford to overlook the possibility of a minority indulging in tax evasion. I need not emphasise the necessity of setting up the Anti-Evasion Unit within the Income Tax Division to track down unscrupulous tax-dodgers.

Mr Speaker, Sir, you may perhaps agree with me that during the colonial and semi-colonial periods, many people indulged in illegal business transactions such as smuggling, perpetrating frauds, gambling and other forms of commercial crime, and they became rich in such rackets. The profits arising there- from could hardly be accounted for by the Income Tax Department. In this manner, a lot of money must have been accumulated inside and outside our Republic by these people. Naturally, they do not dare come out with their hidden capital for investment for fear that action will be taken against them, apart from queries from the Income Tax Department as to the sources of their invested income. This accumulation of hidden capital must run well into hundreds of millions of dollars. Some of these people may sincerely want to start off with a clean state and invest their money in honest business. Every endeavour must be made to attract this idle money to come out from underground for useful investment.

Mr Speaker, Sir, is it possible for the Government to work out some solution whereby this enormous sum of under ground capital can come out into the open without fear and prejudice? If this is possible, I am sure it will tremendously help the economic growth of the Republic, otherwise this hidden money will remain idle or it will even be sneaked out from the Republic. The stolen hens must be allowed to come out openly to lay eggs which can be shared between the Government and the owners. These eggs may, in time to come, produce more hens which in turn will produce more eggs. In other words, if the hidden capital can be utilised in honest investments, the Government and the owners will enjoy a profitable partnership. I am sure that our able Minister for Finance, who is an eminent economist, will be shrewd enough to work out a scheme to tackle this problem, if he considers that now is the appropriate time to do so.

Mr Speaker, Sir, in fact, this is not the first time that this subject has been raised in Parliament. In the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Expenditure in this House last year, the Minister promised to give consideration to this matter. This House may be interested to hear his comments.

Mr Lim Cheng Lock: Mr Speaker, Sir, in this year's Budget under the Income Tax Division, there is a provision of $500,000 to set up an Anti-Evasion Unit. I would like to know whether the Minister can give any indication of the amount of income tax that is being evaded annually. At a time when our Republic is in need of every cent for defence expenditure and social services, it is most appropriate that the Anti -Evasion Unit be set up to collect every source of revenue that is due to the Government.

I suggest that this sum of $500,000 would be more usefully spent on the employment of staff to prevent tax evasion and to streamline income tax collection than to wait for persons to evade tax and then bring them to book.

Mr Tang See Chim: As in other countries, it is felt that there are members of the public who attempt to evade paying income tax by not making a full disclosure of their sources of income. It is felt, however, that every effort should be made to plug the loopholes in the law to prevent tax evasion wherever possible rather than to raise the tax rates in order to increase the total revenue. Hence an Anti-Evasion Unit with advanced methods of investigation to detect tax evasion is being set up. This should serve as a warning to tax-dodgers.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance has not answered my question whether we can work out a solution whereby hidden capital can be attracted to come out for investment.

Mr Tang See Chim: The Government is not considering the offer of an amnesty to tax-dodgers. The whole purpose of setting up the Anti-Evasion Unit is to catch tax-dodgers, that the tax which they had evaded should be extracted from them and that they be brought to book.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0406 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3042.

May I ask the Minister why it is necessary to increase the expenditure in connection with the temporary staff in the Property Tax Division by about 200 per cent? Furthermore, what is the normal period of service of these temporary officers? Are they selected by the Public Service Commission or by the head of the department? If it is necessary, permanent officers ought to be recruited into the service.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, this sum of $155,530 is for two valuers on contract and ten clerical assistants. There is a shortage of valuers in Singapore, because, under present-day conditions, the private sector is extremely attractive.

In answer to the Member for Changi on the question of property tax earlier on, I said we were short of staff. We must recruit additional staff so that annual values can be revised and the rates of property tax can be rationalised. The intention is to obtain such valuers on contract, either locally or from overseas. The ten clerical assistants have been provided for to assist in speeding up the numbering of houses and their valuation. The officers are appointed from lists submitted by the Public Service Commission. Provision has also been made for additional posts that will be required to clear the arrears.

As regards the short-term requirements for additional staff, it is considered desirable to utilise temporary staff. When the requirement becomes permanent, consideration will be given to the creation of permanent posts.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

7.15 p.m.

The sum of $6,519,690 for Head 0406 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0408 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0408 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1041.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, amendment No. (1) .

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0408 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2023.

The $35,630 provided in this vote for the next financial year is for payments to the Postal Department for services rendered to the Imports and Exports Office of the Trade Division. Will the Minister for Finance please inform this House of the nature of the payments and the reason for such a tremendous increase which, after taking into account the provision for the first quarter of 1970, is about three times that of the 1968 Estimates?

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, payments of fees on documents to be processed and approved by the Imports and Exports Office can be made either by Singapore postage stamps or by franking machine impressions. These methods of payment are more convenient for the trading community than the payment of cash for each document to be processed. Such methods of payment not only save the Imports and Exports Office the work connected with cash handling, receipt issuing and other related work, but also result in fewer procedures in processing the documents. However, the work of the Postal Department will be increased in that it has to take care of the postage stamp requirements of the trading community for import and export purposes, and it has to reconcile the accounts it keeps for each user of the franking machine with the records of the Imports and Exports Office. For all the non-postal work involved, the Postal Department is, therefore, paid a commission of one per cent of the total amount collected by these methods.

In 1968 new fees of $10 were introduced for (1) import licences, and (2) urgent processing of permits and licences. Also the fees for declarations were increased from $1 to $2. Both these new and revised fees will result in increased collections. The collection estimated for 1969 by these methods is $2,850,000. Therefore, the commission payable is $28,500.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

(3) That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0408 be reduced by $100.

The Chairman: Madam Chan, amendment No. (3) .

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving, Sir.

The sum of $1,702,700 for Head 0408 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0409 -

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0409 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3002.

Sir, this is a sum set aside for the next financial year for a population census. I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance when and how this population census will be taken, and whether Members of Parliament and members of the Citizens' Consultative Committees will be involved in this exercise.

Mr Tang See Chim: Mr Speaker, Sir, briefly, the provision under the subhead for population census is to provide funds for the planning and preparatory work for the main census of population scheduled for June 1970. A Census Unit has been established and work relating to the preparation of the census will have to be carried out in 1969. This involves the preparation of census schedules, manuals of instructions and training programmes, detailed programmes of field operations, tabulation schemes as well as the preparation of field maps for census enumeration. In addition, a trial census will also be undertaken by about the middle of 1969.

The funds are mainly required for the recruitment of office and field staff, programmers and draftsmen, and for the expenses relating to the purchase of some office equipment, stationery and materials required for mapping work and other incidental expenses.

The operation of the census is a large undertaking. It is estimated that about 3,000 field enumerators and supervisory staff will be needed to carry out the field operation. As the census involves enumerating every single person in the Republic, its success will depend on the full co-operation of members of the public as well as the various public and private organisations and institutions. The assistance of Members of Parliament, members of the Citizens' Consultative Committees, business and other community leaders will be requested. Full publicity will be given to the census operations in due course.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $2,088,790 for Head 0409 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0501 -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Teong Eng Siong -

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Chairman: Mr Teong Eng Siong is not here.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1052.

In the estimates of expenditure for the years 1967 and 1968, one could know at a glance what we were paying our hard-working Ambassadors and High Commissioners. For the estimates of expenditure for the financial year 1969 and the first quarter of 1970, the salaries for the five Ambassadors, Grade 111, have been lumped together in one sum. Why must the salaries for these Ambassadors be grouped together? Is it to hide any disparity in the salary scheme for the Ambassadors who are all Grade III? Is this to prevent any embarrassment among the Grade III Ambassadors, as this must have been done when we see the estimates of expenditure for the financial year 1968? One Grade III Ambassador was stated to draw a salary of $27,240 per annum as compared to the rest of the Ambassadors, Grade III, who were drawing $20,040 per annum each. I would like the Minister to clarify this point for me, Sir.

Mr Low Yong Nguan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am glad that the Member for Joo Chiat has given me this opportunity to raise a point which I think is quite important. I was told during the debate yesterday that the salary scales for Ambassadors, High Commissioners, etc, are related to the whole salary structure in the public service. But today, during the debate on the amendment on the vote allocated to the legal adviser in the ministry of Finance, we were told that we need to pay for talent, and that we need to pay for brains. Will the Minister for Foreign Affairs adopt a similar attitude in the attempt to get good men for our Missions abroad? For instance, we should get people who can perform the same type of duties as our representative in Indonesia. His performances were praised in this House yesterday. In the attempt to attract the best brains into this service, we should increase the salary scales and allowances of our Ambassadors and other representatives overseas.

Inche Rahim Ishak: Mr Speaker, Sir, the question raised by the Member for Joo Chiat regarding what he termed a "disparity" in the salaries of Ambassadors, Grade III, serving the Foreign Ministry is not quite correct. For technical reasons, all Ambassadors, Grade 111, belong to the same category. But there is such a thing, as you know, Mr Speaker, as salaries which are personal to the holders. For those reasons, depending on the importance and location of the missions, the salaries of Ambassadors vary. In order to attract suitable persons to become Ambassadors and High Commissioners from outside the career service, persons have often to be paid more than what is provided for in the Estimates. We must take into account the emoluments they were then receiving on the day of their appointment. In the case of one Ambassador, he was already drawing a substantive salary of $2,000, and this is the basic salary which he still draws as Ambassador. This is what I was referring to when I say "salary personal to holder", even though the basic salary for a Grade III Ambassador as provided for in the Estimates is, in the majority of cases, $1,670.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Ng Yeow Chong, amendment No. (3) +. It might be convenient for you just to move amendment (3) . In the debate you can range over amendment (4) *. They both provide for commercial diplomatic officers.

• Amendment (4) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1061.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1059+.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I recollect during the debate in Committee of Supply last December on the Estimates of Expenditure for 1968, the Minister for Foreign Affairs indicated that a number of trade representatives would be sent to our Singapore overseas missions. It is now observed that in the estimates for the next financial year, there are provisions for one post of Counsellor (Commercial) and three posts of First Secretaries (Commercial). In going through the detailed estimates of expenditure for various overseas missions, I discovered that only one Counsellor (Commercial) and one First Secretary (Commercial) are provided in London and Washington respectively.

7.30 p.m.

Sir, will the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs kindly enlighten the House on when and in which overseas mission the two remaining posts of First Secretaries (Commercial) will be filled? It is surprising to note that in our overseas missions in cities like Tokyo, Hong Kong and Jakarta with which our Republic has close trade relations, there are still no Counsellor (Commercial) or First Secretaries (Commercial).

Inche Rahim Ishak: Mr Speaker, Sir, we have no Counsellor (Commercial) in Washington. Perhaps the representative there comes under the Economic Development Board. There is an Investment Promotion Officer but not a Counsellor (Commercial) in New York.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Point of clarification, Sir,I notice that under subhead 1059, there is one post of Counsellor (Commercial) and under subhead 1061, there are three posts of First Secretaries (Commercial). Am I to understand that they are trade commissioners or trade officers?

Inche Rahim Ishak: Sir, if the Member for Mountbatten was referring to the Washington post, the short answer is that this post has not been filled. There is no holder of this post. But if he was referring to the post in London, I can explain why there has been an increase. I would like to know which particular post he was referring to.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, in cities like Tokyo, Hong Kong and Jakarta, trade officers or First Secretaries (Commercial) are not assigned to these overseas missions.

Inche Rahim Ishak: Sir, coming back to the particular post which the Member mentioned under subhead 1059, it is actually in respect of the emoluments of one post of Counsellor (Commercial) and does not include the three First Secretaries (Commercial) that he mentioned earlier. The post of Counsellor (Commercial) is to replace the post of a locally-recruited Trade Commissioner in our London High Commission. The contract of the present incumbent is due to expire in June next year. It is intended to post a suitable home-based officer, that means an officer recruited from Singapore, to London to replace the locally-recruited Trade Commissioner.

The post has been down-graded from Grade E to Counsellor, which is equivalent to the grade of Principal Assistant Secretary in the scale $1,300-40-$1,420.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: On a point of clarification, Sir. Why should the post be down-graded just because the appointee is recruited from Singapore?

Inche Rahim Ishak: Sir, that is a very intelligent question. As the hon. Member for Mountbatten has pointed out, there is an increase in the salary, and yet I have mentioned that the post has been down-graded and apparently the salary is less. The incumbent, who is the present Trade Commissioner in London and is not home-based - he was recruited in London - receives all kinds of other allowances. Whereas the home-based Counsellor who will be appointed in his place next year will, of course, be entitled to overseas cost of living allowance, overseas allowances for wife, children, etc. That is why in the Estimates it is reflected as an increase, but the basic salary is lower.

I hope that explanation satisfies both the Members for Joo Chiat and Mountbatten.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng: Sir, I am still not satisfied with the explanation on the lower basic salary of the home-based officer.

Inche Rahim Ishak: Mr Speaker, Sir, the hon. Member for Joo Chiat is never satisfied with many things. I hope his dissatisfaction is limited to matters which transpire in this august Chamber and to mundane matters like the Budget Estimates and so on. But in other matters, I am sure he is satisfied.

For his information, the consular activities of home-based officers actually have been absorbed by the High Commission Chancery officers. In other words, the duties of the present incumbent will now be shared with other officers in the chancery the First Secretary, the Second Secretary or whoever will be there to share the duties. For that and other reasons, the salary has been lowered.

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0501 be reduced by $100*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Low Yong Nguan.

Sir, Singapore is a newly independent country. We do not have natural resources, but we have managed to survive and live in peace and order as a result of the talents of our people who have worked towards this end. At the same time, we can be proud of our secure economic base and of the non-aligned foreign policy we pursue. As a result of this policy, our country has managed to escape involvement in international conflicts. We can say that this is a very wise policy of our Government. If we can continue with it, I think the future of Singapore will be bright.

However, there are certain problems which remain with us. I wish to mention a few. One of them is that the countries surrounding Singapore are still in a state of turbulence and restlessness. Singapore is a member of ASEAN. There is a problem in ASEAN which gives rise to instability. I would like to ask the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs what the present position of ASEAN is. Does he think that ASEAN will produce concrete results? As a matter of ASEAN, what sort of a future do we have?

As everybody knows, we are faced with the problem of increased expenditure on defence and this is a considerable sum. The economic problem facing us is a big one. As a result of the Minister for Finance's efforts, we have managed to escape from economic depression. The expenditure on defence is not limited to what we are spending this year or next year. What happens after next year? We will probably have to spend much more on defence with the build-up of the armed forces. In the circumstances, I would like to know whether our foreign policy of non- alignment will be affected by our commitments on defence.

7.45 p.m.

The third point is this. In the 1967 Budget we approved the establishment of diplomatic missions in Johore Bahru and Rangoon. However, up to now, we still do not have any commercial representatives in Johore Bahru and Rangoon. What are we going to do about this next year?

The other place is Cambodia. According to last year's Budget, we were to have an Ambassador there but we still do not have one yet. Who is going to be the Ambassador in Cambodia? I would like the Minister for Foreign Affairs to give me a reply.

Mr Low Yong Nguan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think it is generally agreed that Southeast Asia is, and has always been, beset with trouble, confusion and conflicts. Sir, the throe big powers are pushing ahead with plans to exert their influence, if not domination in Southeast Asia. Japan, being the third world ranking industrial power, a position which it has not previously enjoyed throughout her history, will inevitably, with its achievements during recent years, push ahead too and exert her economic influence in this region also. She may exert her domination in the economic field over those states which are in a helpless position.

What is more, Sir, in our own estimate, if the Vietnam war should come to an end, we will face a nation which has a well-trained and battle-tested army with the best military equipment. There is no single member nation of ASEAN which can match this nation. Let it be known then to those member nations of ASEAN which may have any ulterior motive or even doubts about ASEAN that the political power shifts are changing rapidly and that there are many combinations and permutations of power association to reckon with. Faced with such a possible situation, the logical conclusion obviously is an approach to regionalism. I am glad to say that Singa pore has recognised this as an inevitable process in this part of the world.

Sir, the logic of regionalism cannot and should not be doubted. In spite of all our difficulties, can I have a clear and straightforward undertaking from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that it will do its level best to promote this logical development and play an active role in formulating a closer inter-state relationship between the member states of ASEAN? The members of ASEAN should not allow the history of Europe -which took two centuries of wars of tragedies to make them realise the inevitability of regionalism-to be repeated in this part of the world.

The other point on which I seek clarification from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is whether there is a better definition of what the Minister for Foreign Affairs has so repeatedly and unfailingly said about our non-aligned foreign policy. Sir, can I have an undertaking that this policy should not give an assurance to any country or any power bloc that we will remain defiant to the inevitable changes that are taking place in Asia? Rather, that it should be a flexible and adaptable foreign policy that will not commit the generation that comes after us to a difficult position.

Sir, the fact that we have committed ourselves to the defence of democracy does not carry with it the right for us to jeopardise our succeeding generation to tolerate or even to co-exist with enemies of democracy if the need arises. Readiness to defy overwhelming changes and the facts of life is an invitation to domination, whether military, economic or otherwise.

Mr Lee Teck Him: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Crawford has said just now that our foreign policy has always been one of nonalignment. Our Minister for Foreign Affairs has announced publicly that we do not want to be included in any power bloc. But my view is different.

Our boat is now on the high seas and if we do not follow a fixed course going by the compass, we may run into rocks and sink. I hope that our foreign policy will continue to be based upon the principle of non-alignment. In this way we will avoid many troubles.

Inche Rahim Ishak: Mr Speaker, Sir, I must apologise for not being as attentive as I should have been when the Member for Mountbatten raised his question under subhead 1061, but I thought I heard him ask a question on subhead 1059 only. Actually I have the answer for that one and, with your permission, Sir, may I complete it and satisfy the Member for Mountbatten?

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: Sir, as a matter of fact, I do not like to press further, but if the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs would like to give an answer, I am happy to hear it.

Inche Rahim Ishak: Sir, in respect of the emoluments of the three posts of First Secretaries (Commercial), they are actually for the Embassy in Washington, not only in Washington as earlier stated-one for Washington, two for the High Commission in Canberra, Australia, and the Embassy in Cairo. They are in three different places, Sir.

The post in Washington has already been created this year by an Establishment Warrant and a suitable officer from a commercial firm was appointed. The posts in Canberra and Cairo are new. The former is to promote trade with Australia and the latter to promote trade with the Middle East and Africa. The question of suitable trade and commercial representation abroad is currently under discussion with the Economic Development Division of the Ministry of Finance and the International Trading Corporation to achieve the widest and most apt representation without unnecessary duplication and overlap.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I come now to the comments made by the Members for Delta and Crawford. They have touched upon matters of policy pertaining to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The Member for Delta was rather anxious to know about ASEAN. Perhaps she is understandably worried about the dispute between the Philippines and Malaysia. I do not know if she is worried that ASEAN will not work because of that one little dispute. As I said yesterday, we have no illusions whatsoever about regionalism. We have com mitted ourselves, firstly, to the philosophy and policy of regionalism. We believe in it sincerely and wholeheartedly.

When ASEAN came about, we made a policy decision to join it and we are in it. I also said that the little difficulty between the Philippines and Malaysia is not going to shake our belief in regionalism and interdependence between states in Southeast Asia. ASEAN is only one year old and it has not yet brought direct benefit to its members. How could it? The European Economic Community is almost 20 years old and yet it is having difficulties from certain coun tries in Europe.

8.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

The Minister for Education (Mr Ong Pang Boon): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made progress on the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st January, 1969, to 31st March, 1970, and ask leave to sit again on Monday, 16th December, 1968.

Mr Speaker: So be it.