ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 1969, TO 31ST MARCH, 1970

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [3rd Allotted Day].

Resumption of debate on Question (16th December, 1968),

"That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1153."-[Mr L. P. Rodrigo]

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

2.55 p.m.

Head 0701 -

The Chairman: Amendment (12), Mr Rodrigo.

Mr L. P. Rodrigo (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, yesterday I was engaged in the topic of principals of schools before we were terrorised by the Environmental Public Health Bill. I was calling upon the principals of schools to make their contribution to education in a form beyond their administrative duties as heads of schools. I was calling upon them to apply their minds to problems in education relevant to the times and, especially,. relevant perhaps to their respective localities and schools and to put this thinking on paper for submission to the Ministry of Education and also to be published and sorted out for the benefit of the teaching profession.

Sir, the heads of schools, having stored up that much experience and ability to merit their appointments as heads of schools by the Public Service Commission, should gladly undertake these duties without insistence on the part of the Ministry, and I certainly would look forward to such responses from principals of schools. But they also have hard times these days.

I would like to refer the Minister to the last appointment of principals of primary schools. I do not know whether this may be within the ambit of the Public Service Commission. If it is, the Minister can still do something to remedy what I think is an undesirable situation. The appointment of the princi pals of primary schools was last made on the basis of a circular to the schools calling for applications for this appointment and the indication was that the appointment was meant to be a substantive appointment. A number of applications were made. Subsequent interviews followed, and then short-listing, and eventually the appointment was made in two categories. One was a category of appointees who were appointed substantively with the usual probationary period.

3.00 p.m.

The other category was a category of appointees who were informed that they were rejected for the substantive appointments but that they were to be appointed in an acting capacity until one year from the date of the appointment or until the incumbent for the post arrived. This would mean that this second category of appointees would revert to teaching and they would suffer some embarrassment.

But what is alarming is that when some of these appointees approached the officials in the Ministry and indicated that this was something for which they had not bargained, and when they asked whether they could refuse the second type of appointment, it appeared that they were informed that they could, provided they signed certain documents to the effect that they reject the appointment on condition that they are prepared to forfeit promotional opportunities which may come their way in the future. If this is so, I think this is a very iniquitous practice on the part of the Ministry, it is unfair to these applicants. It is just like inviting a guest to your house for a cocktail party and as soon as he gets into your house, you grab him by the scruff of his neck and drag him to the backyard to clean up the mess, perhaps in preparation for the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign! And when he protests, you threaten to blow off his brains with a blunderbuss. I think this situation ought to be resolved somehow or other, because I understand that they have been informed by the Ministry that their appointments would proceed until further notice - in other words, until a further one year from the date on which they were last notified or until the incumbent came along to displace them.

I hope the Minister will look into this situation with a view to remedying an undesirable situation.

Mr N. Govindasamy (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, prior to the setting up of the Harvey Salaries Commission by our Government, the Ministry of Education administered numerous salary scales for various categories of teachers with resultant anomalies and injustices. It was hoped by all that with the publication of the findings of the Commission, comprehensive and effective measures would be adopted to do away with, once and for all, the innumerable ramifications of the prevailing anomalies and that a unified salary structure would be drawn up. It is true that some anomalies have been rectified, but the overall position in the Ministry of Education remains as unsatisfactory as before.

There were a number of issues which were considered not only by the unions representing the employees but also the Ministry of Education and: the Treasury to be in dire need of an equitable rectification. But the Harvey Commission appeared to have overlooked the representations made by the Ministry of Education as well as by the unions representing the teachers. I am sure it is not too late to rectify the anomalies since both parties - the Ministry of Education and the unions representing the teachers - agree that there is a need for rectification.

In particular, there are two outstanding issues that should be resolved without any further delay: one, remuneration to the senior assistants and two, salary scales for promotion posts in the Ministry of Education.

Sir, in the 1950's, all schools that operated two sessions had one principal for each session. However, with the intensification of the school-building programme, the shortage of senior and experienced teachers for promotion as principals became so acute that, as a temporary measure, the practice of appointing one principal for both morning and afternoon sessions was adopted. Unfortunately, this temporary measure became, with the passage of time, a permanent policy of the Ministry of Education and, at the moment, there is only one principal for both the morning and afternoon sessions. Where principals cannot be present throughout the whole of the afternoon session, senior assistants are then appointed to manage the school for and on behalf of the principals. These senior assistants are not given additional remuneration although they are made to shoulder additional responsibilities. After repeated representations by the unions, the Ministry of Education agreed with the unions that it was an inequitable situation which had to be rectified and that a recommendation to this effect would be made by the Ministry to the Harvey Salaries Commission. But it appears that the Harvey Salaries Commission has not given any consideration to this recommendation made by both the unions and the Ministry.

The Ministry of Education is the only Government department where promotion posts do not carry different salary scales but only allowances. This practice is still continuing in spite of the fact that the Ministry of Education as well as the unions have agreed on numerous occasions that it creates injustices in many ways.

In view of the circumstances which I have just set out, I hope the Minister for Education will take the necessary action to remove these anomalies by entering into negotiations with the unions in order to bring about an amicable and equitable settlement of the issues.

As a matter of fact, the Harvey Salaries Commission has recommended in paragraph 198 of its Report that the structure and reorganisation of the Ministry of Education must be looked into.

Mr Speaker, Sir, may I, at the same time, congratulate the Ministry of Education on being far- sighted and willing to rectify mistakes made by the Harvey Salaries Comniission. I refer to a newspaper report yesterday that the Ministry of Education had entered into negotiations with the Malay Teachers' Union on the unduly and unreasonably depressed salary scales recommended by the Harvey Salaries Commission for religious teachers in Singapore. Sir, we recognise that no one, not even a commission of eminent persons, is infallible. It is quite obvious that the Harvey Salaries Commission has, unintentionally or unwittingly, made some recommendations which are not in keeping with the aspirations of our Republic and or with the recommendations of the various Government departments and the employees' unions.

It is commendable that the Government has accepted the Commission's recommendations with some modifica tions. There is scope for further adjustments of the recommendations as the negotiations going on at the moment between the Ministry of Education and the Malay Teachers' Union clearly indicate.

May I enquire from the Minister if further negotiations will be conducted between the Ministry of Education and other categories of teachers on similar findings of the Commission which do not appear to have taken into adequate consideration the recommendations made by the Government, as well as by the employees' unions? Sir, in the private sector, if both the employers' and employees' unions agree that a certain category of posts can and should be considered as promotion posts, the resultant negotiations conducted by the parties involved are confined to the quantum of remuneration for the pro motion posts. In other words, the dispute centres on the fair and equitable remuneration that is payable to the holders of the promotion posts. The terms of the negotiated settlement are then incorporated into a collective agreement which sets out the salary scales for such posts and it is duly certified and registered by the Industrial Arbitration Court~ In the Ministry of Education, there are two issues which merit similar treatment and yet the Harvey Salaries Commission has somehow overlooked the recommendations made by the employers as well as by the employees' unions.

The Minister for Education (Mr Ong Pang Boon): Mr Speaker, Sir, although written papers on particular educational problems have not been submitted on a formal basis by principals of schools to the administration, the views of principals are made known to senior officers of the Ministry at regular meetings of principals of schools. However, the Member for Serangoon Gardens has suggested that the principals should put their minds to educational problems, especially those which are related to their own schools and that they should submit papers for further study. This is a constructive suggestion which I shall take up in due course. Certainly, the experience of principals accumulated over a period of years should not be left untapped.

There were 24 pure vacancies on 9th September, 1967 - that was the date on which the results of the last promotion exercise of principals of primary schools were announced. All these 24 pure vacancies were filled by officers in a substantive capacity without a period of probation. However, in that exercise, the Public Service Commission also selected some officers for appointment as acting principals for a period of one year or until the incumbents resume duty, whichever is the earlier. This is unavoidable. The selected officers are not filling pure vacancies, as the substantive incumbents are away on scholarships or are either acting or officiating in higher posts.

3.15 p.m.

It will be possible to consider these acting principals for promotion in a substantive capacity only when a promotion exercise is conducted to fill the vacancies.

The Member for Telok Blangah raised certain matters regarding the salaries of teachers and principals. I think he is aware that the whole question of teachers' salaries, post allowances for principals and so on is a very complicated one. It dates back almost 20 years. The problem is so complicated that the Harvey Salaries Commission was afraid to delve into the whole question. It has, therefore, suggested a separate commission to go into the matter in detail. I do not think it is possible for me to give an offhand answer, because the Education Ministry is not the sole employer in the Government. There is such a person as the Exchequer or the Minister for Finance who is in charge of the finances of the state. Until I have sought the views of the Finance Minister on whether there should be a separate commission to go into the whole question of the salaries of teachers and principals, I am not in a position to give a satisfactory answer to the Member for Telok Blangah. I agree with him that it was the Ministry's view that there should be a separate salary scale - call it a promotion scale if you like - for principals and that there should be full-time assistant principals instead of the present senior assistants. These views were submitted to the Harvey Salaries Commission but no firm recommendation was made. As I said just now, until I have consulted the Minister for Finance, I am not in a position to give a positive answer.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Serangoon Gardens brought up the question of getting the principals to make a greater contribution towards their professional work in education. I agree with him in principle that this suggestion is highly desirable. But my fear was well founded, as has been proved just now by the Minister's reply. The Minister said that he readily agreed to such a suggestion and that he would follow it up. However, at this juncture the principals will be asked again to do something which I think is quite beyond them. I may have to repeat what I said yesterday about the question of over-loading principals and teachers with unprofessional duties with the result that they are unable to contribute very significantly to their professional work.

On the question of principals making a contribution towards educational matters, I do not want to sound too professional here. But I would like to quote just one example of teachers in other countries. In America, for example, after a number of years of service, teachers are given six months' full-pay, what they call Sabbatical leave. The purpose is to enable them to go to other countries and study for themselves the educational system there and also do some research work. I am not making a comparison and saying that we should do likewise. The point I want to stress is this. For professional people to be able to make a substantial contribution to their professional work, the one essential element is the time factor. There should be opportunities for these people to have the time to study and do research work.

In the case of teachers, they should also be given time to travel and see things for themselves and make comparisons with different educational systems. Of course, I think the Minister knows the answer. In Singapore it is quite difficult for teachers to get this sort of leave, more so for principals. At present, the principals are less fortunate than the teachers. Although teachers are supposed to get a three-term holiday, they are expected to go to school and do a lot of things. But principals have got to be in school even during the holidays to carry out their duties. The question of leave for principals has never been settled. I am not here to raise the question of the conditions of service of teachers. I just want to point out to the Member for Serangoon Gardens this one obstacle which principals will have to encounter before they can carry out his suggestion.

We have also to understand that the nature of the duties and the type of responsibilities of the principals have considerably increased since the last decade. As the Member for Telok Blangah has pointed out, a principal now has to look after two schools. Due to the shortage of school buildings, two schools are being run under one building. Now very conveniently the Ministry has called them two sessions of one school~ But when we compare the structure of the schools in our neighbour, Malaysia, with our own, we are in fact having two schools in one school building. The principal's responsibility is to look after these two schools. This is one additional responsibility which he has had to undertake since the last decade.

As I said yesterday, we have made significant and impressive progress in our educational development. We have introduced integrated schools. At one time principals had to look after only one stream of education. Now they have to look after two or even sometimes three streams of education. It is not so much the size or the number of classes as the nature of the responsibility that is the problem. The educational system i'n the Chinese stream is different from that in the English stream. As a result, the timetables for the two different streams of education, with all the attendant problems arising from integration, have to be fitted in.

In addition to integration, we now have the multi-purpose school, which is a sort of comprehensive school. If you talk about comprehensive education in England, and compare it with the type of schools that we have, the strength of their staff would be two or three times greater than that of our schools. As the Minister for Finance has said, Singapore is an island of 224 square miles at low tide. We are short of land. Therefore, school buildings have to go upwards. I believe that in some of the schools in Singapore they have as many as 48 classrooms in one school. There is no playing field. These are some of the problems which have come within the responsibility and duties of principals in the past few years.

I also mentioned yesterday the lack of co-operation on the part of parents. Not only do they not show any special interest in their children's welfare in education, but sometimes they even obstruct the principals and teachers in the performance of their duties. One very common occurrence these days is for the children to complain to their parents on the slightest excuse. These complaints are readily accepted, and at one time almost welcomed, by the Ministry of Education and an immediate investigation would then be carried out. The poor principals and teachers would have to answer all these complaints.

These are the types of problems which principals and teachers have to worry about and attend to. After grappling with them, I wonder how they can have the mental capacity, if at all they have the time, to make any significant contribution towards improving their professional work. Nevertheless, some efforts have been made towards this end. I can only say that from my association with the Singapore Teachers' Union, some modest efforts have been made towards professional improvement.

Representatives from principals and teachers have met together and have drawn up a code of ethics. We have occasionally produced journals in connection with our profession. We have also met to discuss matters of professional interest. We have on numerous occasions made representations to the Minister and the Ministry officials on matters of professional interest. The Education Ministry did organise a seminar for principals. The Singapore Teachers' Union also made an effort to follow up that seminar by offering to organise seminars for teachers. However, we were told that the Education Ministry itself was following this up with further seminars for teachers. I must say that the Education Ministry has, in fact, organised refresher courses and re-training courses for teachers. I think the teachers are today spending a great deal of their time outside teaching hours trying to improve themselves by attending these courses.

I do not think I have much to say at this juncture. I am not really trying to be too pessimistic about the contributions from principals and teachers. I can confidently say that the teachers would be more than willing to make their contribution, not only by spending extra hours in teaching or taking part in extramural activities, but also in producing papers on matters of professional interest to education. But like people in other professions, principals and teachers need one very important element if they are to make any contri bution towards their profession, and that is peace of mind. There should be less interruptions in their professional duties. They should be given the opportunity to do research work and thus make their contribution in the field of education.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I cannot agree more with the Member for Moulmein when he suggested that principals should be given periodically six months' full-pay Sabbatical leave, provided, of course, we have the necessary financial resources to do so. I am sure the Ministers on this side, too, would like to have six months' full-pay Sabbatical leave. However, I think the Public Service Commission has a number of scholarships and fellowships which are available annually to anyone who is interested in further studies abroad. I am quite prepared to grant liberally no-pay leave to any principal or teacher who likes to advance his knowledge abroad, provided, as I said, it is no pay leave.

3.30 p.m.

It is true that, as a result of running two sessions with one principal, the promotion opportunities for a large number of teachers have been somewhat restricted. While we cannot afford to have one principal for one session, I think it is possible to consider a principal for one session and an assistant principal for the other session in the same school. It is a compromise proposal which I thought was feasible and that is why the suggestion was made to the Harvey Salaries Commission. I am not in a position, at the moment, to give a positive reply on this matter. But if the time is appropriate, I will take up this matter again.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1157.

Sir, I seek your leave to range over the subject arising out of subhead 1159 as well - amendment (15)*

• Amendment(15) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1159.

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, in as much as it takes two to do the tango gracefully, it takes the teaching profession and the administration in a huge co-ordinated exercise to make our new education system succeed. I have previously spoken of the responses from the administration which are necessary, and I now wish to speak of the responses which. I think, are required from the teachers. Generally speaking, I believe the teachers attempt their best under reasonably harsh conditions, having to contend with excessively large classes, a voluminous curriculum and extensive extracurricular activities ranging from art clubs to volley ball. No doubt the duties of the teachers today are onerous. But there is, however, a small negligible segment of the profession to whom the profession has lost all appeal, whose teaching responsiveness has long atrophied into the callous principle of doing the least for the maximum benefit. I must speak out against this segment of teachers. I think they had better make up their minds whether to be in or out of the profession, and they would be sparing themselves if they left the profession, because I do not think one can be half committed if one is in the teaching profession. One either teaches or one misteaches, and we certainly do not want teachers who misteach.

As we move into the next decade and after having gone through a series of educational changes in the previous one and having finally set our system, there is need for the teachers today to assimilate the trend and the progress of the times in the country if they are to contribute their utmost. At this stage of our educational development, Sir, we need - as I have said before and I do not think this can be over-emphasised a positive awakening of teaching power. We need a tremendous teaching zeal, founded upon a precise understanding of the aims and purposes of education in the context of our national growth. And what is supremely important, a vocation to teach. It means that the teachers need continually to improve upon their own capability by perusing material relevant to the profession and thinking about problems relating to education.

In this respect, it was suggested to me that one indictment against the teaching profession is that a journal called the Teachers World Today cannot be sold in Singapore for want of purchasers. It may be so. I remember some years ago when the agents for this periodical made quite a business. But it appears that they have relinquished their agency.

There can be no half-way measures in teaching and it is imperative that teachers today be conscious all the time of the fact that they are teaching, because if they are not, as I elaborated yesterday, the danger of falling into the rut of instructing is always present. Theirs is a difficult task of finding the time and the opportunity, in addition to the curriculum, to educate their pupils for character, for social cohesion, for citizenship, for democratic living, for critical inquiry, for respect, for dignity in work, for racial and religious tolerance, for community development and for intelligent leisure. They must undertake all these if we are to have educated school-leavers. Such needs require teachers to involve their professional selves with the aspirations of the country and fully commit their professional expertise to the aims and purposes of education today. For the sake of our country, Sir, I call for these responses from the teaching profession.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do not think that calls for a reply from me, because I do not think anyone will disagree with the Member for Serangoon Gardens on what a teacher should be. I must admit there are not many teachers who can measure up to his expectations. It is mainly the result of the large and rapid expansion in education over the last ten years. Many of the existing teachers who should not, in fact, be teachers have got into the teaching profession due to the lack of more suitable candidates. I think the problem is how to identify those teachers who are indifferent to their profession and to take appropriate action against them. I have been in the Ministry of Education for more than four years and I have yet to come across any principal who is prepared to inform me or my Director that such and such a teacher in his school should not remain in the service but should seek alternative employment elsewhere. Therefore, it is very difficult for the officials in the Ministry and for me to identify this small category of black sheep in the teaching profession and weed them out.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong rose -

The Chairman: Mr Sia, we must get on because we have 27 amendments to go through. Can you be very brief, please?

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Yes, Sir. The Member for Serangoon Gardens has said that there can be no half-way measures in teaching. I cannot agree with him more that that is an educational ideal. But the problem is how to apply that ideal in the Singapore situation. I also agree with the Minister who has said that there are black sheep among the teachers, but that the problem is how to spot them out. Mr Speaker, Sir, there are also many teachers who want to play their role but who face certain difficulties. To be good teachers, there must be certain environmental conditions favourable for the teachers to carry out their responsibilities. As I have mentioned earlier, in certain schools they do not even have a field for teachers to train students to be more rugged. There is the problem of getting a proper field and facilities for physical education exercises. There are a host of other problems, such as teachers getting transferred every so often.

Finally, to enlighten the Minister on why no principals would bring to his notice or to the notice of his officials certain cases of bad teachers, I think this is the position and I will quote an example which is causing this situation. There is a principal who is very energetic and keen to see that the educational standard in his school is maintained and that the teachers maintain certain standards of professional proficiency and conducts. One teacher in his school persistently misbehaved himself and the principal brought up the matter with the inspector of schools concerned.

3.45 p.m.

There were a series of investigations, but finally it appears that the principal was not doing his job because he did not fulfil certain requirements. This news passed around, resulting in a feeling among the principals that they should not try to overdo things because, instead of putting things right, they would find themselves in serious trouble.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I will withdraw my amendment but I will not allow the Member for Moulmein to dilute the cogency of my ---

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo, the Chair must allow a debate between Backbenchers and the Government, but cannot allow a dialogue between two Backbenchers.

Mr Rodrigo: Quite true, Sir, I am quite aware that I have got a "vertical" debate going across here and I certainly will not start a "horizontal" debate. I thank the Minister for supporting me In my appeal to the teaching profession and I also thank the Member for Moulmein. I now beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (14)* is not being moved by Mr Rodrigo. Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi.

Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1158.

Sir, if my memory serves me right, the Minister for Education has stated that from 1968, students in English schools taking Mandarin as a second language will be taught Civics and History in the second language, that is, Mandarin. In this way, students will be more proficient in the second language.

I would like to know from the Minister whether students taking the National language or Tamil as their second language will be taught Civics and History in the second language.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, for those Malay or Tamil pupils taking Malay or Tamil as their second language they will be taught History and Civics in the second language. I think I already made it clear in my speech in this House on 12th December, 1968.

Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi: (In Malay): In view of the explanation given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (15)+ is not being moved by Mr Rodrigo. Amendment (16), Mr Rodrigo.

• Amendment(15) reads as follows:

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1159.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1160.

Sir, this subhead concerns domestic science teachers. The domestic science teacher, as I see her, is one who, apart from teaching her pupils cookery and sewing, should also be teaching them home economics. In addition, there is a need to introduce to these pupils subjects like the rudiments of sociology, the structure of society, the family and the individual, parental responsibilities of the family to society and the country, factors and habits which disintegrate the family and how to avoid and correct them. I think these are subjects which the pupils studying domestic science ought to concern themselves with, apart from cookery and sewing.

I must say that I observe with some anxiety the ease with which family cohesion today in our society tends to dissolve as we proceed towards urbanisation. My impression today is that the ordinary hawker is already becoming so much an integral feature of our life that for many families, lunch or dinner would mean the mother or father giving 30 cents or 40 cents to their children who would disperse for their choice meals. There are no longer opportunities to cohere in the family. I think these are tendencies which we ought to try to avert now, and the domestic science teachers can start doing that by instructing their pupils in all these subjects.

Can the Minister enlighten the House on whether the officer in charge of syllabuses is aware of such tendencies and whether or not there is an attempt or a trend to embody these subjects which I have mentioned in the curriculum for domestic science?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education (Dr Lee Chiaw Meng): Mr Speaker, Sir, the syllabuses are under constant review. With better facilities being available in our secondary schools, we will not only be teaching cookery and needlework but also, as the Member for Serangoon Gardens has said, home economics, the rudiments of sociology and other subjects. Of course, the Member is also aware of my Minister's speech on 12th December, 1968, that as from next year domestic science will be compulsory to all secondary female students.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, in view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi -

(17) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead 1164.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: Sir, I am not moving.

The Chairman: Amendment (18) , Mr Tay Boon Too.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1201*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

3.55 p.m.

Mr Tay Boon Too (Paya Lebar): Everyone knows that at the present juncture in our nation building we need not only sufficient teachers but also teachers who are dedicated to the cause of education. In other words, our efforts must not only be directed at quantitative improvement but also at qualitative improvement in our educational endeavours. Judging from the courses and re-training conducted by the Teachers' Training College, it seems that the question of quantity has been solved, particularly in regard to primary school teachers. What is urgently required at the present juncture is sufficient technical teachers to man our technical and vocational schools.

On 12th December, the Minister for Education said in this House and I quote:

'To provide the necessary teachers for the swing towards technical education, a massive training and retraining scheme is already under way. The training programme will move into top gear next year with the expansion of the technical wing of the Teachers' Training College.'

This is really a very heartening move on the part of the Ministry. But, on the other hand, we must not forget that we should also aim at qualitative improvement in our education. The retraining of qualified teachers, viewed from certain angles, is aimed at enhancing the quality of teaching.

Sir, allow me to say a few words on the re-training programme and the attitude of the teachers towards re training. Care should be exercised in making long-term plans for such re-training courses. Let me take as an example the syllabus of Chinese as a second language, which is one of the important training courses, the success of teaching Chinese as a second language, and the policy of bilingualism in schools. What preparations have been made by the Teachers' Training College or the Ministry before these courses are conducted? How many experts are there in this particular field? How are we going to train the lecturers who will in turn train the teachers to teach Chinese as a second language in non-Chinese schools? There are many teachers who want to improve themselves and are willing to learn, but whether they have adopted the correct attitude is questionable.

Two years ago some lucrative monetary incentives were given to those attending certain in-service courses. However, such monetary incentives have been abolished and yet the response to the re-training courses has been very good. I can give two reasons for this. Firstly, the reason for the good response shows that the teachers are eager to learn and want to equip themselves with the latest methods so that they can accept the challenge of educating our next generation.

4.00 p.m.

Secondly, in the negative sense, this shows that our teachers want to safeguard their jobs. In other words, they want to protect their rice-bowl. Un fortunately, most of those teachers who responded to the re-training courses were motivated by the need or anxiety to secure their employment.

It is sad to note that the majority of teachers regard teaching as an ordinary profession and not as a special profession. I am a teacher and I can there fore speak from my own experience. I will describe briefly the actual position in the schools, especially with regard to the attitude of certain teachers to the teaching profession. They are scared of their colleagues. They fear that their colleagues may make reports to the principals and that the principals in turn will make adverse reports to the Ministry. Many teachers are also scared of the inspectors and officials from the Ministry. This goes to show that the relationship among the teachers, principals and officials of the Ministry is one of mutual distrust and suspicion, with the result that the teachers are content to do only what they are required to do. They regard their jobs as a means of livelihood and they do not display professional ethics in their work.

This brings me to the Teachers' Training College which plays an important role in teacher training. Teacher training should not be undertaken by the Tea chers' Training College alone. The inspectors. principals and senior teachers also have a role to play in teacher training. Of course, the Teachers' Training College is directly involved with the training of teachers. The curriculum of the Teachers' Training College is composed of two sections, namely, professional subjects and academic subjects. The professional subjects are educational theory, educational psychology and other methods of teaching, and the academic subjects are mainly concerned with the contents of the academic subjects. The trainees are mostly from the primary and secondary schools. It is regrettable that not enough has been done to instil professional ethics into the teachers. I feel that the Teachers' Training College should lay more stress on professional ethics courses for the teachers. It should also provide training courses in school administration. School administration is one of the subjects taught in the universities. In this way, we hope to have teachers of good quality and learned principals with administrative skill. Of course, it is not exactly the intention that teachers should learn school administration with a view to their being appointed as principals, but it is the duty of the teachers to have an inkling of school administration. If they have a basic knowledge of school administration, it is possible that they can become principals in the future and put their knowledge to good use. But if they have to start from scratch when they are appointed as principals, they will find themselves in a mess.

Lastly, I would like to refer to kindergarten education. Children in kindergarten classes can easily cultivate attitudes and habits. Therefore, we should pay much attention to their social behaviour and physical health in order to prepare them for academic studies in later years. Formal lessons should not be conducted in kindergartens. The children should enjoy indoor and outdoor activities in pleasant surroundings. They should be provided with toys and play-things. In addition, they should be taught educative and creative subjects like drawing, story-telling, singing and dancing.

The Chairman (Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng): Mr Tay, I am afraid your 15 minutes are up.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, perhaps I can begin my observations by asking what the schemes of teacher training are which are currently being conducted in the Teachers' Training College today.

Quality teaching comes from quality teachers, and quality teachers are found and developed in the Teachers' Training College. This brings me to the basis of selection for teacher training these days. For years now, teacher training selection has been on the basis of academic merits which has been accepted as an indicator of suitability for the teaching pro fession. This has been necessary because of the exigencies of the times which have demanded a rapid expansion in education. Today, however, we begin to emphasise "qualitative" education which, in my opinion, is a supertlous adjective, because if education is education, then it is qualitative already, if it is not, it is mis-education. But if we are to initiate a qualitative revolution in education now, I suggest that we start in the Teachers' Training College and we re-do the basis of our teacher training selection in order that we may recog nise teaching as a vocation, although that vocation may repose in the bosom of an applicant without an impressive academic achievement. The inquiry into the selection of applicants should be of sufficient breadth and depth. It should probe for some signs of an impulsion to teach. Then it should survey the applicant's character and look for what I would call the intangibles - the undefinable traits which go to make up the character of the individual - not so much by a reference to the conduct columns in a school report book, but by ranging over the intellectual, social and cultural experiences of the applicant and the moral or immoral persuasions to which he had been subjected in his childhood or adolescence.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

4.13 p.m.

Mr Rodrigo: Time was when applicants for the teaching profession came from middle-class homes. That practice no longer obtains today - and I say this without any intention of casting a reflection on, any one class. But they did have a certain amount of moral upbringing imposed upon them by conservative parents, with the result that when they recruited for the teaching profession they had in them what could be termed a moral content and they were, therefore, suitable to appear before a class of 40 students to teach. But after the war, education was brought to the people at large so that we gradually got the person who appeared before the selection board with the requisite academic qualifications. But I maintain that that is not sufficient alone to qualify him, to appear before a class of 40 students to teach. I think the inquiry should go beyond that. As I have said, it should go into all the moral persuasions that go to make up his character.

Thousands of boys and girls will pass through the influence of teachers. These teachers cannot and will not teach no matter how intelligent they are if they are amoral; they can only instruct. In that light, what are the content courses in the Teachers' Training College today? Are they courses which instruct and equip student teachers to carry out teaching for social cohesion? One innovation which I may suggest is that the Teachers' Training College may consider courses to instruct trainees in the mechanics of learning, so that they may not only teach the teachers what to learn but how to learn effectively. I wonder what is the extent of such training in the Teachers' Training College in the complexities of present-day living. I think a student has to go through quite a lot of reading material in one day, and if he is a slow reader, he is going to be greatly handicapped. I refer to subjects like speed reading and comprehension. I wonder what is the extent of such training in the Teachers' Training College. There is so much for the pupils to take in and absorb in the course of their school life.

4.15 p.m.

I think it should be obvious that one way of going about it is to teach them how to absorb the material read effectively. Has there been research on speed reading and comprehension, memory utilisation and so on in the Teachers' Training College?

Finally, I am pleased to say that I have come across Vol. 1, No. 1 of Teacher Today by the Teachers' Train ing College which contains educational articles. But I wish to express one regret about this volume and its contents. The views and opinions on education expressed in this journal are excluded from being representative of the College or the thinking of the Ministry. They are impressive articles by impressive writers. But, at the same time, paragraph 2 on the second page says, "Any opinions which the writers have expressed or implied in this publication do not necessarily reflect the views of the College or of the Ministry of Education."

What I think we need - at least I for one need - to be able to assist the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary is to have articles on education which are representative of the views of the Ministry and the T.T.C.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, much of what the Member for Paya Lebar said just now, has, in fact, already been covered by the Member for Serangoon Gardens. The Member for Paya Lebar is doubtful about the benefit of many of the in-service courses organised by the Ministry. In his view, many of the teachers who responded to these in-service courses either did so because of the attraction of the increment in the salary scale, or because they wanted to ensure their security of tenure. In fact, they had very little interest in the in-service courses. One can only hope that the teachers who attended many of the in-service courses organised for them are genuinely interested in the profession and want to improve themselves.

The Member has also suggested that school administration should be one of the subjects taught in the Teachers' Training College, in addition to the professional subjects. There is nothing objectionable to this in principle. But I am not so sure whether time permits the inclusion of this subject.

In so far as the kindergarten classes are concerned, the Ministry does not have the financial resources to supervise this aspect of the child's education. It is undoubtedly desirable if we have the financial means to run the kindergarten classes ourselves. However, what the Ministry seeks to do is to draw up some guidance for the organisers of the kindergarten classes. In conjunction with the Adult Education Board, the Ministry is now organising a kindergarten teachers' course for principals and teachers of existing registered kindergarten schools. In addition, the Adult Education Board, with the assistance of the Education Ministry, will also organise a crash programme for the training of teachers in kindergarten classes organised by the People's Association and other interested parties. It is our view that trained kindergarten teachers are better than the untrained teachers who are now conducting these classes. As far as the Ministry is concerned, the cost of running these classes will not be prohibitive.

The Member for Serangoon Gardens has raised the question of the selection of candidates for training as teachers. He says that proper care should be exer cised in their selection. As he is aware, all teachers in training were selected by the Public Service Commission. I am sure they would have taken all the relevant factors into consideration when selecting candidates for the teaching service. It is true that because of the rapid expansion and the need for large numbers of teachers, it has not always been possible to pay due regard to factors other than academic performances. However, the expansion phase in education is now over. Henceforth, I think it is possible to pay regard to what the Member for Serangoon Gardens has referred to as the intangible factors.

The T.T.C. is only responsible for the selection of students for full-time teacher training. In this respect, the following factors are taken into account: academic qualifications, extracurricular activities, spoken language, including a test in oral reading and comprehension, personality, aptitude and general know ledge. In so far as full-time teacher training is concerned, academic qualifications, therefore, are not the sole criterion for selection of students by the T.T.C.

Mention has been made that in the past teachers were recruited mainly from middle class families, and, therefore, they had a higher moral standing. I am not so sure that this was necessarily the case. I think a fairly large proportion of families in the middle and well-to-do classes did not measure up to the high moral standards expected of them. On the other hand, there are, from the working class families, people with moral fibre comparable to, if not even better than, those from the middle class families. However, I agree with the Member that now that the expansion phase is over, more attention should be paid to such intangible factors as the character and moral standards of the candidates.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): I am quite satisfied with the Minister's explanation. But there is one point - perhaps I was too much in a hurry in raising it in my speech - he has not answered. If Mr Speaker will allow me, I would like to repeat this question. Are there enough lecturers to teach Chinese as a second language? If there are not enough, what programme has the T.T.C, in mind to train lecturers in the teaching of Chinese as a second language?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the teaching of Chinese as a second language is one of those subjects in which very little research has been carried out in Singapore. This is not the case with the teaching of English as a second language where we have many experts whom we can consult. I am afraid that in the field of teaching Chinese as a second language, we have to do the best we can. We have specialist teachers and inspectors in Chinese. I think in Nanyang University there are also lecturers who specialise in the teaching of Chinese as a second language. In the immediate future, we may have to make use of their services to teach not only teachers in Chinese as a second language but also teacher educators.

Mr Tay Boon Too: (In Mandarin): I thank the Minister for his explanation. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1251.

Sir, the purpose of this amendment is purely to seek information on the functions of the educational television service.

4.30 p.m.

What is the principal object of educational television? Is it to supplement classroom teaching or is it to replace classroom teaching in some subjects? Is there no scope for innovation in educational television like education in the responsibility of the home, in beneficial leisure, or general health education, or education in sports? In other words, instead of limiting educational television to formal classroom subjects, what scope is there for educational television in education other than formal classroom subjects?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: The objective of the educational television service is to supplement classroom teaching in certain subjects and not to replace it. The suggestion that the educational television service should be extended to cover non-academic subjects is a good one, but its implementation is dependent upon availability of funds.

Two programmes were transmitted in1968 during the second term in the civic series in Chinese on Good Health and Health in the Community. Each programme was repeated eight times a week. In 1969, it is proposed that a series of five programmes in health education in the four languages will be transmitted. The English and Malay versions will be transmitted in the first term and the Chinese and Tamil versions in the second term.

As more funds are available, more non-academic subjects will be introduced.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1281*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo

Sir, the Principal of the Junior College has said in the press that the pupils who will be admitted to the College will be the elite students from schools in the four language streams. This is the best method and is in line with the Government's policy on education. But I understand the languages of instruction in this College are English and Mandarin. As pupils will be selected from the four language streams, how can the students from the Malay and Tamil streams compete with the pupils from the English and Chinese streams? The pupils from the Malay and Tamil streams may have Credits in all the subjects, but they are weak in English as it is their second language. If they obtain a Pass in English, how are they to be admitted to this College? And if they are admitted, how can they adapt themselves to the subjects to be taught in the College?

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, my queries under this subhead have been raised to some extent by the Member for Kampong Kembangan. Perhaps I could start off with the aims and purposes of the College. What factors will determine the selection of students applying for seats in the College? Will the students in the College receive a kind of education substantially different from that in the pre-university classes in secondary schools? How is the education system in the College to produce the kind of graduate that the College intends to produce? Is there not a danger of developing a psychological complex in the students who are in pre-university classes but out of the College? I think they will consider themselves academically qualified for admission to the College.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, I have at no time used the term "elite" nor has the Principal of the Junior College used such a term. Therefore, I think it will create a wrong impression in using this term when referring to this College.

The Junior College is being set up to provide better facilities and conditions than would normally be available in existing secondary schools for the pre-university type of education. At the end of the two-year course, pupils will sit for the Higher School Certificate Examination either in English or Chinese.

The selection for admission to the College is based mainly on academic performance, extracurricular activities and proficiency in a second language. The personality and character of the applicant will also be taken into consideration. Besides studying the usual academic subjects for the Higher School Certificate Examination, pupils will continue to study a second language. Every pupil is expected to take part in extracurricular activities, including participation in College societies or clubs. Participation in community work will also be part of the training of pupils, in social responsibility.

The College aims at providing an all-round education and training for its, pupils, at the end of which they will not only have attained the necessary aca demic qualifications for further studies and training in tertiary institutions, but will also be physically and mentally alert, civic minded and will have developed a sense of understanding and tolerance. It is also intended to develop among the pupils qualities of self-reli ance, adaptability and leadership. And, most important of all, it aims at inculcating in the pupils a spirit of loyalty to the nation and commitment to the task of nation building. The attributes that I have just mentioned are essential for those of our young citizens who, in due course, are likely to play an active role in our society.

Pupils from the Malay and Tamil streams are also eligible for admission to the Junior College provided they can follow instruction in English, if necessary, those pupils who are selected will be given extra lessons to improve their proficiency in the English language.

Mr Yeoh Ghim Seng (Joo Chiat): Mr Speaker, Sir, arising from what the Minister has just said, I take it that the Junior College will not be the only one in Singapore. Perhaps there are plans to build others elsewhere?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, the original proposal was to have four Junior Colleges and, if possible, all the pre-university classes existing at the moment would be centralised in these four Junior Colleges. However, in view of limited funds, we can only launch this one Junior College. We hope it will not be the only one, but we can never be certain.

Mr J. F. Conceicao: Mr Speaker, Sir, can the Minister for Education exemplify what he means by participation in community work? I am bringing up this point merely to help dispel certain misconceptions that are being held by people about the purpose of the Junior College.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Although final arrangements have not been made, the teaching "community work" covers a wide range of activities. I would imagine all kinds of community projects like helping the rural farmers in the construction of roads and drains, charity work or work in community centres and so forth.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Mr Yeoh is not moving amendment (21)*. Mr P. Govindaswamy.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1401.

Sir, I understand that the Kalaimagal Tamil School in Yio Chu Kang Road is to be converted into a technical school. I would like to know from the Minister if this is so and, if so, when is this conversion to be effected?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Sir, at present, there are no plans to convert the Kalaimagal Tamil School into a technical school.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1431.

Sir, I believe institutional training is a new concept. My queries are: what are the aims and purposes of this training and the content of such training, and how will such training be carried out?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Sir, the subhead refers to the Deputy Director in charge of institutional training. There are two Deputy Directors working under the Director of Technical Education. One is in charge of institutional training, and the other industrial training. Institutional training will involve the planning, administration and organisation of all training within the formal school system. It will involve the centralised workshops at Secondary III and IV levels of technical schools, the technical classes at pre-university level, the Teachers' Training College and also representation on the Board of the Singapore Polytechnic.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.45 p.m.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1441.

Sir, my queries under this subhead are similar to the one preceding, namely, what are the objects of industrial training; who will be its trainees; how will this training be conducted, whether or not underlining this training there will already be a manpower survey of the needs of industry; and what is the relationship of this training with this survey?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Mr Speaker, Sir, the right hand of the Technical Education Department consists of a deputy director who is in charge of industrial training. 'This officer will be responsible for the organisation and running of the Vocational Institute, the Industrial Training Centres, the National Technical Institute, and he will also be involved in organising trade testing, apprentice training and in-branch training. In fact, it is proposed to form an advisory board for industrial training to replace the existing one at the Vocational Institute, and to work in co-operation and rapport with the industries and, for that matter, between these two deputy directors. Both of them are sharing the same room to make sure that they are in close contact.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo -

(24) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1451.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I am not moving.

The Chairman: Amendment (25), Inche Mohd. Ariff Bin Suradi.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move amendment (28) standing in my name and that of the Member for Serangoon Gardens,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2101*.

I will also range over amendments (25)**, (26)+ and (27)++.

The amendments read as follows:

**(25) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1501.

• (26) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1502.

++(27) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect nf subhead 1721.

I wish to know how many applications have been received for the ASEAN scholarships and which are the countries that have submitted the applications.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, I am not speaking on this amendment(The same amendment also stood in the name of L. P. Rodrigo).

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, the number of ASEAN scholarships for pre-university studies in any one year will not exceed 25. Each scholarship is worth $1,200 per year. It will normally be for a two-year course in the Junior College or a Technical High School for candidates who have passed the School Certificate Examination.

These scholarships are open to all ASEAN countries but I am not in a position now to inform Members which countries have made use of, or intend to make use of, this offer. As far as I can recollect, most of the applicants for these scholarships come from Malaysia.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment (29) .

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2106.

Since the inception of the Lembaga Gerakan Pelajaran Dewasa, it has made valuable contributions to the community and the state, in addition to giving com mercial education in subjects like shorthand, typewriting and accounting. It also conducts courses in orchid growing, photography and so on. The biggest contribution by the Adult Education Board is to accommodate students who fail in the Cambridge School Certificate Examination, the Federation of Malaya Certificate Examination, or the Secondary IV examination. The majority of students who failed in such examinations are admitted to classes conducted by the Board and some of them have passed the Higher School Certificate Examination and have been admitted to the universities.

I believe more and more pupils will be admitted to these classes next year.

I notice from the Estimates that the sum allocated to the Board for 1968 is $2 million, whereas the sum allocated for the next financial year 1969-70 is only $1,875,000. Sir, I wish to know whether the Malay pupils who have been removed from these classes will continue to receive free education, like those who have been removed from the technical and academic schools.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I wish to thank the Member for Kampong Kembangan for his tribute to the work of the Adult Education Board. The Member is quite right in saying that the activities of the Board will be increased next year. In fact, there are many projects which will be implemented next year. Unfortunately, in view of the increased defence expenditure, economy has to be practised in many items of social expenditure, and the Adult Education Board is one of those which will be affected adversely. But with our vast experience, we feel that we can manage even with this reduction in grants.

Sir, speaking for myself, I would definitely welcome a $2« million grant rather than $1.8 million, but these are the hard facts of life. However, I can assure the Member that the services provided by the Board will not be affected by this decrease in the vote. This will be met partly by a reduction in remuneration to part-time teachers and, in part, by an upward revision of some of the fees chargeable.

With regard to the Malay students who are Singapore citizens or children of Singapore citizens, they will be granted a concession in that they need only pay half the rate of tuition fees, and for those who are attending special classes, they will be granted the same exemption.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): The Parliamentary Secretary has said that the remuneration of part-time teachers will be reduced. This means that they will receive less remuneration than what they have been receiving heretofore.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Sir, the present remuneration of part-time teachers is unreasonably high, and we have to rectify it and put it on the same basis as and comparable with that of the full-time teachers engaged in the education service.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2110.

This subhead concerns free textbooks and stationery for pupils. I understand there is an extensive scheme for free textbooks and stationery for pupils. Is the officer in charge of school textbooks in the Ministry of Education also concerned with the school curriculum? If so, to what extent, if any, is the accumulation of free textbooks and their availability to the schools a factor which determines changes in the curriculum of schools? In fact, in view of the stringent budget of the Ministry of Education, one might be tempted to say that one has got a vast accumulation of old textbooks so one will not change one's curriculum and therefore make use of the old free textbooks, when perhaps there need to be progressive tendencies in curriculum changes at the same time. May I know, also, when and in what circumstances are curriculum changes made and on what basis?

Finally, what becomes of the free textbooks which are no longer required for issue?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, the distribution of free textbooks does not in any way determine the curriculum changes. These changes are determined mainly by changes in educational policy. The Ministry does not directly purchase textbooks and distribute them to schools. Each school is given a yearly allocation of a certain sum from the central free textbooks vote, and if the allocated sum is not fully utilised for the purchase of textbooks, the balance is returned to the Ministry and re-distributed amongst other schools requiring further allocations. As such, there is no possibility of accumulating vast stocks of free textbooks. When these books are no longer required, they are transferred to the school libraries for reference and lending purposes and those which are too old and unserviceable are disposed of. Therefore, the possibility of the free textbooks scheme affecting the curriculum changes will not arise.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, in view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

5.00 p.m.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo ---

(31) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead. 2111.

Mr Rodrigo: I am not moving, Sir..

The Chairman: Amendment No. (32) . Mr Rodrigo.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2117.

Sir, what moves me to make this amendment is purely curiosity. I see from the Estimates that "Rent and Maintenance of Playing Fields" for 1968 is $400 and for the extending financial year of 15 months, it is $250.

Perhaps I may be informed how this small sum of $250 can accommodate the rent and maintenance of playing fields of our schools.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Mr Speaker, Sir, hitherto, the vote was for two purposes: first, to pay the rent of a field belonging to the British Army which was, used by the Clementi School: and, secondly, to maintain the Shenton Way field for the use of Gan Eng Seng, Telok Ayer, Peck Seah, Ai Tong, Trafalgar, Yong Seng and Umar Palavar Schools. Both these uses have now ceased. Clementi School is now using the Pasir Panjang Primary School field, while the Shenton Way field is now occupied by the N.T.U.C. ---

An hon. Member: That is correct.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: --- which has both a building and a car park. As an alternative, the padang is available for use in the morning only by those schools.

Mr Speaker, Sir, for 1969, this vote will not be used for payment of rent but, will be used to maintain the field in Farrer Park for extracurricular activities.

Mr Rodrigo: I beg leave to withdraw, Sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2123.

This subhead deals with "Substitute Relief Teachers".

I notice that the amount voted for is $1,287,500. This is quite a substantial amount of money for relief teachers. If I may formulate my queries immediately, may I be informed how many such teachers are there, why are they required whom do they relieve and to what basic duties are they assigned?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Mr Speaker, Sir, relief teachers are short-time replacements for permanent teachers. The scheme of relief teachers was originally introduced to supply short-term replace ments for permanent teachers who go on maternity leave or medical leave exceeding four weeks. It has been subsequently extended to a few vacancies at the beginning of this year pending recruitment of teachers and also to cover replacements for teachers who are called up for national service.

The qualifications of the relief teachers will depend on the qualifications of the teachers for whom they stand in. The qualifications of the various grades of relief teachers are as follows. The grad uate teachers are of two types - the qualified teachers and the under-qualified teachers. The qualified teachers are those graduates with a Diploma in Education and those non-graduates holding recognised teacher qualifications. The under-qualified teachers are university graduates without teaching qualifications or holders of the School Certificate, Senior Middle III or Government Secondary IV qualifications with three Credits, including a Credit in a language.

As relief teachers are appointed as short-term replacements for the permanent ones, their duties are identical with those of the permanent teachers. For 1968, we have a total of 1,319 appointments of relief teachers.

Mr Rodrigo: In view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2127.

Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary have now and again stated that the vote for education has been cut for the sake of defence. But I notice in the Estimates that a provision has been made for "Bonuses for Language Examinations". To whom are these bonuses given?

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Mr Speaker, Sir, the bonuses in question are payable to non-Malay teachers who pass the Standard II and Standard III of the National Language Examinations conducted by the Ministry and the Permanent Examinations Board. The amounts payable to each teacher are $200 and $500 respectively. The award of these bonuses is to encourage non-Malay teachers to study the national language.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): How many teachers have received such bonuses up to now'?

The Chairman: I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary has the information. I am sure if the Member for Kampong Kembangan will write to him, he will convey the information to the Member for Kampong Kembangan by letter.

Inche Mohd. Ariff: (In Malay): On that note, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: I will now suspend the sitting and take the Chair again at 5.45 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 5.08 p.m, until 5.45 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.45 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head 0701 - (contd.)

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2128.

This concerns "Vocational Guidance Expenses". My queries are as follows. What is the extent of vocational guidance in the schools today? What consti tute the activities of vocational guidance bodies in the schools? Is vocational guidance in schools also an attempt to recognise aptitudes for careers and pro fessions and to offer the necessary guidance? Or is it merely the effort of informing students of the various careers and professions so that they may be convinced that they are suitable for a particular career or profession? Vocational guidance in schools these days is necessarily limited to informing the student body of the kind of professions or careers available to them with their relevant qualifications. I think vocational guidance should go beyond that. It should try to devise a scheme to ascertain the aptitudes of the pupils and inform them of the aptitudes which would be conducive to their professions or careers.

Dr Lee Chiaw Meng: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Serangoon Gardens is correct in saying that the Vocational Guidance Unit should extend its activities beyond that of just counselling the pupils on job opportunities. I think the Member is aware that each school has a teacher responsible for the students' guidance on careers. The activities of this~ unit involve the dissemination of information on careers and job opportunities by news-letters, film slides, tapes, books, talks, etc. This is only part of its activities. The Vocational Guidance Unit has four types of services: information, diagnosis, orientation and counselling. The Vocational Guidance Unit will organise aptitude tests to ascertain the aptitudes of the Secondary II students as to their suitability for channelling into the technical or academic streams or into the Industrial Training Centre in 1970. A pilot project has been planned and will start operation in 1969 to conduct aptitude tests on pupils selected at random.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, in view of the explanation, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendments stood in the name of Mr L. P. Rodrigo -

(36) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2129.

(37) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of item (3) of subhead 2132.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am not moving my amendments Nos. (36) and (37) .

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Low Yong Nguan ---

(38) That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 2554.

The Chairman: Amendment (38) . Mr Low Yong Nguan is not here.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 3005.

This deals with the subject of "Scholarships, Courses and Fellowships". My query is whether courses under this subhead include the in-service courses for teachers that we hear of now and again. I wish to know what is the nature of such in-service courses, that is, whether they are incremental or otherwise. Is there a distinction between the in-service courses and what may be called refresher courses? What is the extent of the refresher courses, if any?

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, the sum of $12,480 is to provide return air fares for four serving officers in the education service to proceed to the United King dom for training courses under the Commonwealth Teacher Training Bursary Scheme. Under this scheme the United Kingdom Government pays approved tuition fees, a maintenance allowance, a book allowance and a clothing allowance. The Singapore Government pays the officer his salary and the return airfare. No other scholarships or in-service courses are included under this item of expenditure.

The officers selected for the Commonwealth Teacher Training Bursary awards will, on their return, be deployed in the education service.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0701 be reduced by $100*.

• The same amendment also stood in the names of Mr P. Govindaswamy and Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Mr Speaker, Sir, we have been debating on the vote for the Education Ministry yesterday and this afternoon. Many Members have mentioned the quality, character and profession of the teachers. It is not because I am a teacher myself that I want to say something good about them. But, generally speaking, they have been called the engineers of the souls of human beings. Some people describe them as creators of future society. They generally have a high esti mation of teachers. We, of course, as teachers, understand our duties and position. We appreciate the expectations which the public have of us. In fact, the majority of teachers regard teaching as their profession. They understand that, as teachers, they must have self-discipline and set good examples to the students. They must have integrity.

I will now touch on the officials of the Education Ministry. There should be good personal relationship between the Ministry and the teachers. As the Member for Serangoon Gardens has said, under the present education system, teachers are in a passive position. They have to comply with the instructions issued by the Ministry of Education just like employees taking instructions from their employers - in order to safe guard their jobs. As the Member for Paya Lebar has said just now, officials of the Education Ministry are regarded as important persons. The Ministry itself is regarded as an employer. If one or two teachers err, the whole teaching profession comes under the whip of the Education Ministry. There are, of course, black sheep in all professional bodies. We must not blame the whole profession because of one or two black sheep. The majority of the teachers have been blamed because of the misbehaviour of some teachers.

The Education Ministry recently issued orders that teachers should not go to bars, dance halls or engage in gambling. This would give people the impression that they generally indulge in these activities. Although I am not against such orders - for this would exercise some disciplinary control over the teachers - it should not be done at the expense of the good reputation of the teachers in general. I hope the Minister will deal carefully with this matter.

I would also like to ask him how many school principals and teachers have been sacked or given warnings this year because of their bad behaviour or negligence in their duties.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I think the Member for Jurong should be aware that when Backbenchers or I criticise the teachers for their lack of dedication and other shortcomings, we always refer to the minority group of teachers. We have at no time referred to the whole teaching profession and he should not be unduly worried about it. But I would suggest that the best way of preserving the respectability of the profession is for the professional bodies, such as the teachers' unions, principals and members of the teaching profession, like the Member for Jurong, to single out the black sheep so that appropriate action could be taken against them and so that the vast majority of the teachers will not be adversely affected by the conduct of this small number of teachers.

6.00 p.m.

The Member for Jurong seeks certain figures about the number of teachers dismissed. In 1968, only one principal and two teachers were dismissed because of their misconduct. In addition, one principal and seven teachers had their services terminated also on grounds of misconduct.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I wanted to speak on many matters under this amendment but my colleagues have spoken on most of them.

I wish, however, to draw the attention of the Minister to the large crowd of school children from afternoon schools waiting at bus stands as late as 7 p.m, in the evening. It is a pitiful sight to see young children, particularly young girls, from schools in the rural areas waiting for buses and having to walk in dark lonely streets after alighting from a bus, sometimes as late as 7.30 p.m. Will the Minister consider approaching the Minister for Communications and requesting him to arrange for an adequate number of buses for school children so that they do not have to wait so late at night for their buses?

The Chairman: Does any other Member want to speak on transport for school children?

Hon. Members indicated dissent.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am quite aware of this problem. I think the provision of school buses will help to solve this perennial problem of a good many parents to find suitable transport for their children who are attending school and will also relieve their anxiety for the safety of their children. My Ministry is already looking into this problem and the possibility of encouraging schools to run a school bus service of their own. A number of Chinese schools in Singapore already have school buses of their own to provide transportation for their pupils. It is hoped that the example of these Chinese schools will be followed and that eventually more schools will succeed in having their own bus service.

Madam Chan Choy Siong (Delta): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I notice there has been some reduction in the expenditure of the Ministry of Education. We know a newly emergent nation must place economy, education and culture on an equal basis. That is the proper way to do things.

A few months ago, a youth forum was conducted over T.V. Singapura and the topic was whether economic construction is more important than cultural construction in nation building. The outcome of the debate was that cultural construction was considered to be more important than economic construction. So we can say that education is within the ambit of culture. Therefore, we must attach great importance to education in so far as nation building is concerned. Children start learning from their parents. After that, they must be given classroom education in addition to education at home. Each time we emphasise the establishment of a rugged society, we must not forget the important role played by education in bringing up the next generation to take over from the present generation.

Therefore, in terms of total expenditure for the Ministry of Education, it is my view that there should be an increase instead of a decrease, because it is inconceivable that when our education system is going through a change, we should curtail the expenditure for education. In switching from academic to technical education, we have to carry out a great deal of innovations and other changes. It means that money is involved. In my view, if the expenditure allotted to the Ministry of Education is not increased, I do not think we can carry out the various changes and reforms within a very tight budget unless we reduce the number of schools. This will mean a change of policy in view of this decrease in expenditure.

Therefore, I wish to ask the Minister several questions. Firstly, in terms of expenditure, does it mean that the policy of free primary education may be varied? In other words, there will be only partial free education in the primary stage instead of a comprehensive free primary education.

The next question is whether there is any intention to implement a scheme to scrap school building programmes which are already in the planning stages because of the reduction in expenditure. In other words, are we trying to channel some of our students into private schools instead of Government schools?

In the past, Chinese community leaders made great contributions to education by giving financial aid to private schools. In those days, they were rather chauvinistic and so they spent their money in promoting Chinese education. However, although Chinese chauvinism does not exist now, contributions from Chinese leaders are not so readily forthcoming. Is it the policy of the Ministry of Education to encourage these people to contribute towards national education? In my view, if such encouragement is given, it may be possible for us to continue building more schools and to continue with our free primary education policy.

Mr Ong Pang Boon: Sir, as I explained in my speech on the 12th December, although this is a standstill budget, nevertheless we have adequate funds to provide for the expansion in technical education. It is true that, as a result of this standstill budget, the funds available for general education are not as much as before. Nevertheless, we have been able to maintain the existing level of expenditure and are able to carry out most of the programmes of activities.

There is no question of discontinuing with the six-year free primary education in Singapore. Even with a standstill budget, we are able to continue with it. What I am not able to say is whether we are able to allow each primary school pupil the maximum of eight years to finish his primary education. Hitherto, we have been able to provide six years' free primary education plus two further opportunities for the pupils to finish their primary education. If our financial resources should be further restricted, 4hen we may cut down the number of years available to a student in a primary school rather than do away with the six-year free primary education.

As I have also explained before, the primary school building programme and, for that matter, the secondary school programme, in fact, ceased last year. However, we still have enough places in Singapore to cater for primary school pupils. However, because of the population shift, there are shortages here and there. But if parents are not so particular about their children being posted to schools nearest their homes, there would be places for their children.

As a result of our economy in social expenditure, there is more reason for the Government to encourage private support in educational ventures. The Government will welcome any private individual who is keen to assist in our school-building programme. In fact, in Toa Payoh for instance, we are quite prepared to release some of our school sites to private organisations or individuals if they are prepared to build primary schools.

6.15 p.m.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $198,712,470 for Head 0701 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0801 -

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Ministry of Communications is a newly established Ministry. On the one hand, this shows that the Government is placing great importance on the development of communications. On the other hand, it signifies that there are more communication problems to be faced. Under the able leadership of the Minister, the Ministry of Communications has started a series of new measures. For instance, the one way traffic system has been implemented many of the busy roads, and at cross-roads, pedestrian crossings have been marked out. A Transport Advisory Board has also been set up to advise on problems relating to transportation, and two advisers from the United Kingdom have been invited to Singapore to give assistance and make their recommendations. These measures undertaken by the Ministry are encouraging.

However, there are still many car accidents on the road. According to the police, 290 persons were killed as a result of car accidents during the first 11 months of this year.

On the question of public transportation, there are two aspects. Firstly, there is a shortage of public service vehicles, and secondly, the problem of heavy traffic. I think our capable Minister will be able to solve these problems and thereby improve our public transport system.

I understand that the two experts from the United Kingdom have recommended that public transport in Singapore should be nationalised. I do not know whether the Minister has considered this suggestion. At the same time, I wish to know the work done so far by the Transport Advisory Board.

I would now like to raise a question on the shortage of taxis. According to unofficial statistics, there are about 15,000 to 20,000 taxi-drivers but there are only 4,000 taxis. Will the Minister consider issuing more licences in order to solve the unemployment problem?

I would also point out that the administration of public transport is in a mess. For instance, the Registry of Vehicles is responsible for the control of vehicles while the police deals with pirate taxis. Other matters relating to public transport are under the charge of other offices. The Car Parks Division has marked out parking lots along many roads and, as a result, the roads have become narrower. On the one hand, the Transport Advisory Board is trying to widen the roads to ease the traffic problem, but, on the other hand, the Car Parks Division is making the roads narrower. I would therefore suggest that all matters of public transport should come under one Ministry, that is, the Ministry of Communications. In this way, we can improve public transport, reduce the number of car accidents and also safeguard the lives of our people.

The Minister for Communications (Mr Yong Nyuk Lin): Mr Speaker, Sir, it is rather embarrassing to answer what I would say the kudos that has been given to me, whereas it is actually my other Ministerial colleagues who have been responsible for the good work that has been mentioned by the Member for Sembawang. I would like to draw his attention to the fact that if he sees new roads and extensions being made, new ped~strian crossings being marked out, and new flyovers being built, the credit for these projects is rightly due to my colleague, the Minister for National Development. I do not therefore wish to take credit for them all.

The Member for Sembawang covered considerable ground in his speech -some of his remarks are for and some are against my Ministry - and he ended up by making certain suggestions.

Sir, may I touch upon the points raised by the Member? The decision to appoint two advisers from London to survey the possibility of mass transit for Singapore had been taken before I assumed' office in the Ministry of Communications. Unfortunately, this report is, at the moment, still confidential. The Government is studying the impact of their proposal which recommends that Singapore should consider the possibility of what is known as an underground transport service in Singapore. This matter has got to be studied because of the financial implications. I will not disclose the exact figures, but it is more than a few hundred million dollars. This means that I will be competing with my colleague, the Minister for Defence, who requires over $300 million per annum. So I do not think Singapore, at this stage, is in a position to consider such a proposal, but we are studying the various aspects of this problem. At the present moment, I am afraid I am not able to say more than this, because the Minister for Finance is looking into the economic implications of such a proposal.

As regards the Transport Advisory Board, it was formed in August 1968. The Chairman of the Board is my Parliamentary Secretary. I believe an interim report has been prepared, but I have not received it and I am again not in a position to inform the Member for Sembawang what those recommendations would be. Perhaps it will be possible to do so at the next sitting of Parliament and I hope that after the festive season we will be able to settle down to study seriously the proposals.

I agree with the Member that the number of accidents and deaths which occur on the roads in Singapore is on the high side, although there is a National Safety First Council which is fairly active, having instituted a number of road safety campaigns. It will be remembered that a few days ago the Member for Katong did raise the same question and I indicated that the Ministry of Communications would institute a sustained campaign for road safety next year.

The Member for Sembawang then went on to deal with the problem of public transport in Singapore and mentioned that there is indeed a tremendous shortage of public service vehicles. Here again, I would not like to anticipate what the Transport Advisory Board will recommend, but I can endorse what the Member said, that there is a shortage of such public service vehicles. I understand that bus companies have placed an order for 150 new buses which they hope to put on the road by next year. As for taxis, there are, at present, 3,800 taxis and not 4,000 taxis as stated by the Member. This comes again within the terms of reference of the Transport Advisory Board. I believe there is a move afoot which will help to resolve this problem, although what it is I am not in a position to disclose today.

6.30 p.m.

I think the Member for Sembawang has criticised the collection of licence fees and so on in the Registry of Vehicles. There is congestion in Middle Road where the Registry has to deal with hundreds of thousands of licence holders. It has been stated in this House that we shall be decentralising the collection of licence fees for next year by making use of the 40 odd post offices which are found throughout the island. We shall also be using an electric computer for this purpose. We do hope to see an improvement in the situation next year.

The problem of pirate taxis has again cropped up, and mention has been made of the Car Parks Division using more and more public roads for the purposes of car parks and the collection of fees thereon. The problem of pirate taxis, however, comes within the province of the Ministry of Defence which is in charge of the Traffic Police. The Car Parks Division comes under the Ministry of National Development. I think the Member for Sembawang ended his speech with quite a good suggestion that the Traffic Police and the Car Parks Division should be transferred to the Ministry of Communications. I am very grateful for this suggestion, but I prefer not to be saddled with more departments than I can handle. It is true that it will be easier if both the departments are consolidated into one. However, I think it is a suggestion which can be considered by the two Ministers concerned rather than for me to agree with it. I would prefer that they keep those departments to themselves.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Madam Chan Choy Siong -

That the total sum to be allocated for Head 0801 be reduced by $100.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: I am not moving.

The sum of $294,310 for Head 0801 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0803 -

Mr Lim Soo Peng (Havelock): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1051.

Sir, it is not only my personal experience but that of many travellers who pass through Paya Lebar Inter national Airport that the handling of luggage is very slow indeed. There were occasions when it took about 45 minutes for passengers to get their bags from the conveyor belt. The few luggage porters who happened to be around adopted a couldn't-care-less attitude.

Sir, in the wake of our extensive campaign to woo tourists and develop our tourist industry, I hope the Minister will look into this matter and improve the existing facilities immediately. I am sure that any costs incurred in so doing will be very negligible as compared with the ever-increasing invisible earnings that our economy will benefit by this industry

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I find it a little difficult to answer the sweeping statement made by the Member for Havelock that it is the general experience of most people who arrive at Paya Lebar International Airport that the handling of luggage is on the slow side - as long as 45 minutes by conveyor belt. I think this can happen even at the best of airports. Sometimes, a passenger arrives at Airport A and finds that he will not get his luggage because it has gone to Airport B. It will then not be delayed for 45 minutes but 45 days! I believe one of our Members of Parliament found that he had no luggage when he arrived in New York and he was recompensed. Later on, he did get his luggage after having been recompensed by the airline company concerned.

So unless the Member for Havelock is able to give me specific instances, it will be very difficult not only for me but also for the department to try to investigate the problem and deal with it. But I will accept his statement that it is possible that these incidents have taken place and that it should be our endeavour to give satisfactory service, not only because tourists are coming to Singapore, but because this service is also expected of any airport or airline company.

May I, first of all, say that at the present moment certain airlines are responsible for the handling of their own luggage and that other airlines have asked the Department of Civil Aviation to handle their luggage for a fee. So if it is possible for the Member for Havelock to state which particular airline was at fault, then we can dig into the matter. I see that he is on the point of giving me certain information, so I will sit down for him to clarify.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Sir, the Minister can look into the handling of luggage by porters of Malaysia-Singapore Airlines.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I would have preferred him to say so in the first place. Unfortunately, Malaysia-Singapore Airlines, which is a joint enterprise with Malaysia, has been receiving a lot of complaints. I can say categorically that Malaysia-Singapore Airlines is at the present moment undergoing a stage of reorganisation right from the top. We are now negotiating for the appointment of a new General Manager and a Secretary. Now that a specific complaint has been made, I can assure the Member for Havelock that I will look further into his complaint regarding the handling of luggage by M.S.A. at Paya Lebar Airport and I think I can put it right in quick time.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Mr Speaker, Sir, if the Minister wants more people to support the Member for Havelock, I wish to be the first to come forward.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: On M.S.A.?

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: No, not on M.S.A, but on the need to do something about the clearance in the arrival channels at our airport. I have personal experience of not only leaving Singapore Airport for other countries, but also of making regular visits to the airport to receive international guests. My observations confirm the fact that there are signs of congestion and delay in clearance at the arrival channels particularly during certain periods of heavy air traffic. I think sometimes the passengers and those whom I receive do feel a bit irritated because of the delay in clearance. This is quite under standable because after having travelled for 10 or 20 hours, they are extremely tired and therefore they need a quick clearance service so that they can go to their hotels as quickly as possible. I do not say that the arrival channels in our airport are not adequate to meet the present demands. There must be certain occasions when there is a heavy flow of air traffic. I am thinking in terms of the development of our tourist trade.

In addition to the present flow of air traffic and the number of passengers arriving at the airport. there should be a considerable increase in the number of passengers moving in and out of the airport. As a result, we see signs of congestion and delay. I wonder whether the situation will not be aggravated to the extent that it will become extremely intolerable. I admit there are occasions when I feel proud that Singapore has a very efficient airport. There was one occasion in particular when I felt extremely proud of our airport and that was when I arrived at a neighbouring airport where the facilities and conditions were atrocious. I said to myself that we in Singapore are living in heaven. Our airport is a place where we even go to spend our recreational hours because of the very pleasant surroundings there. But I have reason to feel a little small when I compare the facilities in our airport with those of other international airports. I agree that we should not make a comparison because we are a small country with limited resources.

Be that as it may, if we place emphasis on the importance of air traffic, particularly in Singapore, we should think in terms of making our airport a truly international airport, even to the extent of catering for the jumbo jets. We should also think in terms of cashing in on the tourist trade. One very important factor has also to be considered. Our airport facilities should be in keeping with the standards that we intend to set for our hotel industry, taxi service and shops, because I think travellers are usually irritable after a long flight. Sometimes the four arrival channels in our airport cannot meet the demands of a heavy flow of air traffic, and I see a need for an increase in the number of arrival channels in the near future. Similarly, there is a need for quicker clearance of the passengers.

Mr Speaker, Sir, I feel that the Minister for Communications should look into these essential matters, not so much in terms of meeting the present intolerable position but of meeting a position that will arrive in the very near future. I am beginning to see signs of strain at the airport with the number of passengers coming in and going out. We should take heed of these signs and take the necessary remedial measures.

6.45 p.m.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am glad that the Member for Moulmein has come out in full support of the Member for Havelock, that it was his experience also that there is delay in the clearance not only of luggage but also of passengers at our airport. But in saying so he did mention that this happens only during certain hours. That is the peculiar situation of an airport. At our airport, more planes would land or take off during certain hours of the day or night than at other times. Especially between 8.00 and 11.00 a.m, and from 4.00 to 9.00 p.m., more planes would come in or take off. It is during these periods that one gets the impression of congestion and delay. Whereas if a plane lands or takes off during the other hours, it is very simple for passengers to pass through the various gates and go straight on to the aircraft. These are problems which have to be faced not only in this airport but also airports all over the world. For some curious reason, passengers who travel by air like to choose a convenient hour. Most airlines try to oblige passengers and, therefore, they get more passengers if they take off, say, around eight in the morning so that the passengers need not have to wake up at five in the morning, have a quick shave and rush to the airport, it is possible, therefore, for a particular passenger to proceed to the airport as if he is attending his office. He has his breakfast, reads his newspapers and then turns up at the airport at a very convenient hour, which is about eight o'clock in the morning. So every airline will try to take off their planes at about the same period; that is, at 8.00, 8.15, 8.30, 9.00 or 9.15 in the morning. Or when the passengers leave the other side of the world and come here - if, for example, it is an overnight flight -they prefer to arrive here at a convenient hour in the evening before taking off. So these are problems created by the airlines themselves, because they all want to crowd into what are known as popular periods. Hence the congestion.

There is no doubt that we are planning for the future. In fact, we do know that the jumbo jets will be using Singapore Airport in 1971. The Australian Airline, Qantas, has placed orders for a few jumbo jets. Survey teams have come to Singapore for discussions. They intend to start a service from Sydney to London. The plane will stop at Singapore and Bahrain before going on to London, it is true that if a jumbo jet lands at Singapore and if all the passengers disembark, they can easily fill up one hotel. Although a jumbo jet can hold 490 passengers, travelling economy class, most airlines will carry only 360 passengers, because they will have about 50 passengers, first-class and the remaining 310 will be passengers travelling economy class. Yet we will have quite a problem to process 360 passengers once the plane lands. This is a problem which is exercising not only our minds but also the minds of other airports which are likely to handle jumbo jets. It is because of this that we have frozen certain plans for extensions to the Paya Lebar Airport.

The day before yesterday, the Member for Serangoon Gardens asked what steps were being taken to develop our airport for the future. I indicated in my reply that we had employed a firm of consultants to look into the expansion plans of our airport up to 1990. For the time being, although we have plans to extend the facilities at the airport for handling passengers, cargoes and so on, we have found it necessary to freeze the plans till we get an assessment from this firm of consultants. We hope that when this report is ready sometime next year, Government will be able to make firm plans for extensions or make provision for facilities which will assist in easing the so-called congestion at the airport.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to thank my friend, the Member for Moulmein, for supporting my statement. Ministers come in through the V.I.P. Channel on their arrival at the airport. I am sure, therefore, they do not know the problem faced by the ordinary traveller. The Minister has asked me to be specific. All I have to say is that if he would delegate one of his officials or his Parliamentary Secretary to go to the airport, he would see that the luggage clearance is slow. Of course, the loss of a baggage could happen even in the best of airports. Even in Tokyo, the busiest airport in Asia, it took us no less than 20 minutes to have our luggage cleared. When we compare standards, Sir, I take it that we compare ours with only the best and not with those which are not up to our standards. Sir, in view of the Minister's assurances to look into this matter ---

The Chairman: Mr Lim, before you ask for leave to withdraw your amendment, may I ask the Minister if he wants to reply?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, I think I should reply to the Member for Have-lock. There is plenty of time to do so. The guillotine is a long way off. I think I had better give the Member for Havelock his money's worth! I agree with him that we should compare ourselves with the best available and not take the poor services of other airports as a basis of comparison. That is why we do not have to say that because we are wooing tourists, we must therefore improve our airport service. I think our service should be good even without the tourists. That is the test, and our staff at the airport should be made to realise what we expect them to do. I agree with the Member for Havelock, too, that I go to the V.I.P. lounge or room, but he must not assume that I am not aware of the situation. When I visit the airport in the course of my duties, I do go to rooms other than the V.I.P, lounge. Of course, the staff may have been alerted to put things right when I am around. But I can assure the Member for Havelock that I generally ask to see things that are not arranged. It is only on specific complaints, rather than, on just a wide sweeping statement, that I can look into the matter. I do not have to send one of my officials to accompany the Member for Have-lock there, since he has already stated the sources of his grievance. I can say that in my overall supervision of Malaysia-Singapore Airlines, this is an aspect of the work at the airport which I will now follow with assiduous persistence.

Mr Lim Soo Peng: Sir, I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1081.

Sir, this concerns the Airport Fire Officer and the Airport services. I have been informed that the Airport fire station, as it is now sited, is in a dis advantageous position in that it does not command a panoramic view of the runway. With the impressive lengthening of the runway which is to come about to take in such huge aircraft as the jumbo jets, I can well imagine that the present disadvantage will be enhanced. Since this is a matter which concerns the security of passengers, I hope it will be attended to in detail, lf this is the fact of the case - I have reason to believe that it is so - I will be obliged if the Minister will assure the House that he will look into this matter.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to assure the Member for Serangoon Gardens that the siting of this particular fire station is not Out of the way but is in a central position. I visited the runway of the airfield and I know exactly where it is located. They gave me an exhibition of how they would tackle a fire in case it breaks out. With the extended runway, the extra 2,000 feet - the runway has been extended from 9,000 to 11,000 feet - is quite close to the fire station at the Airport. Unless the Member's information is not quite right, I can assure him that even with the arrival of the jumbo jets, the fire station is quite in order where it is. Of course, what we need is more equipment so that in case of a catastrophe we will have more fire engines and so on to meet the situation. In this connection, my reply to the Member for Serangoon Gardens yesterday was that we had ordered a high capacity foam tender which should be available very soon to augment the equipment we have at the present time.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I have brought the matter to the attention of the Minister as a result of a discourse which I had with a professional source. The opinion is that it is preferable to have the siting of the fire station on the other side of the runway - on some high ground - which would enable it to command a thorough and comprehensive view of the runway. As the fire fighting unit is at present sited, it is on the near side of the terminal building. In the view of the fire officers in the unit, the intended extension of the terminal building might perhaps cause a blockage.

7.00 p.m.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, since the Member for Serangoon Gardens has asserted that he understands from a reliable source that the site of the fire station is not in an ideal position. I want to say that my brief coming from the Director of Civil Aviation - unless he does not know his job - is that the existing site of the fire station is a central one where attendance to any part of the runway can be made in the shortest possible time. I have also been to that particular fire station. The point is probably one of perspective.

An hon. Member: He did not know it!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: May I say that even if we wish to make a change in the site, we are freezing it pending a report from the firm of consultants which is looking into the possibility of having a second runway. There is now one runway in Paya Lebar Airport. It may be necessary to build a second runway, if the second runway is built, this particular fire station will be right in the middle of the two runways. The Member thinks that the fire station is a little out of place, and I say that, from the brief obtained from my top civil aviation official, it is in a central position. We can go on arguing about this. But can we just wait until the firm of consultants has decided on how the airport is to be expanded and then perhaps a new fire station may be built, or it could be just that the fire station will have an extra tower built on top of the present building? I do not know. Perhaps it is best to leave it at that.

Mr Rodrigo: Sir, that will satisfy me and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. But in doing so and in order to satisfy the non-participant in the debate who said perhaps I did not know this myself, this was confirmed by my visit to the airport for purposes of recreation.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0803 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1245.

Sir, this concerns good conduct allowance for constables, and what moves me to make this amendment is the unusual nature of this allowance. I would have thought that constables, security officers or whatever personnel are entitled to this allowance would be expected to show good conduct. I do not think there should be incentives for them to show good conduct and receive monetary benefit for so showing. Perhaps the Minister will explain.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I agree with the Member for Serangoon Gardens that we expect good conduct from our officers and, therefore, an allowance of this nature is probably not necessary. I understand that the present regulations permit the payment of a good conduct allowance if the officials justify such payment.

Regulation 12 of the Auxiliary Police Singapore Airport Regulations, 1964, provides that members of the Singapore Airport Auxiliary Police Force shall be eligible for the same allowances subject to the same conditions as are payable to members of the Polis Repoblik Singapura who are of equivalent rank. Perhaps my colleague, the Minister for Defence will probably want to look into the matter. The Polis Repoblik Singapura pays its personnel up to the rank of sergeant a good conduct allowance of $3 per month for every three years' service up to a maximum of $21 per month. It is a question of a precedent being set. Somebody does it and the others ask for the same privileges. Hence provision has been made in the Department of Civil Aviation's vote for the payment of this allowance to members of the Singapore Airport Auxiliary Police Force of equivalent rank who qualify for this allowance.

There is one more little comment which unfortunately is not too good. To date, no payment of this allowance has been made. No Airport police officer has qualified for it. Too bad!

Mr Rodrigo: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. But in so doing, it appears that this discreditable source is now located in the Ministry of the Interior and Defence.

The Chairman: Mr Rodrigo, if you look at subhead 1687 on page 254, in the Estimates you will find the corresponding item under Police personal emoluments.

Mr Rodrigo: Yes, Sir. In fact, I got that marked down here also. But I did not send in an amendment to that subhead.

Sir, the source must be located somewhere. I think now that the matter has been raised, perhaps appropriate attention could be paid in that direction.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $8,042,410 for Head 0803 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0805 -

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0805 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead I 0{) 1.

Sir, I wish to know from the Minister how many vacancies for clerks and postmen for 1968 have not been filled and the reasons for not filling all the vacancies.

I also wish to know whether the recruitment of additional staff as provided in the Estimates for 1969 will be carried out next year; and, if so, around which part of the year does he intend to initiate the recruitment exercise?

The Minister may be aware that the Postal Department have to deal with parcel bags and mail bags which have been stored in the holds of ships and which are usually very dusty. The post offices are also frequented by the public and tourists. I understand that the standard practice is to whitewash Government buildings once every five years. In the light of the above, may I know from the Minister whether he will consider whitewashing post office buildings once in three years instead?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am afraid the Member for Anson has asked questions which are too much in detail for me to be able to provide him with answers; for instance, questions like how many vacancies are to be filled and so on. I can only say that there are a few vacancies for postal clerks (timescale) and postmen (timescale) to be filled and that all these vacancies are being filled by mass recruitment through the Public Service Commission. It is a case of how quickly we can chase the P.S.C, to get on with the job. I presume that it will be done as soon as possible and the vacancies will then be filled.

As to the Member's other question about the dustiness of the Parcel Bags Division in the General Post Office, this is a matter which I noticed when I visited the General Post Office during the course of my duties and I found, to my horror, that some of the ventilation ducts - suction pumps - had gone out of order and nothing had been done. I am glad to say that this has been put right. It has also been agreed with the Public Works Department to get a few more suction pumps to improve the situation for next year.

On the question of whitewashing of post offices, I think it is a general rule that Government buildings will get a new coat of paint every five years. I agree with the Member for Anson that it should be made every three years; in fact, as and when the buildings get dirty. I have seen some post offices which are very dirty and should be cleaned up. What with the present "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign, the roads are probably looking cleaner than the post offices! But it is not what we want. It is what Treasury is able to provide funds for. That is our difficulty, in view of the fact that the Member for Anson has raised this point, I shall ask my Post master-General to make a strong plea for the dirtier post offices to get more frequent whitewashing instead of waiting for the five-year periodbefore they do get a spring cleaning.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I agree with the Minister's statement. But he should insist on Treasury to provide funds for whitewashing post offices once in three years, because post offices are frequented by the public and should not be treated on the same basis as other Government buildings. The Postal Department is the dirtiest department. Therefore, we must clean it every now and then. Otherwise the people working in the department may get T.B. I urge the Minister to put up a strong case to Treasury for the whitewashing of post offices once in three years.

I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $21,718,910 for Head 0805 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0806 -

The Chairman: The amendment* under this head stands in the name of Mr Low Yong Nguan. I have his written authority under Standing Order 35 (2) authorising Mr Cheong Yuen Chee to move it.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Head 0806 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

7.15 p.m.

Sir, I believe that it was in January 1966 that the Government took over Cable and Wireless Limited. The integration exercise has since been in progress. I wonder whether the Minister will inform the House of the progress made so far in the integration exercise and, particularly, I shall be pleased if the Minister will answer the following queries:

(1) Is it not true that there are undue delays in the integration exercise? If so, what are the causes of the delay?

(2) Is it not true that the union representing the workers in the Telecommunications Department has been refused permission by the Director of Telecommunications to be present even as observers in such integration exercise on the flimsy excuse that the discussions do not concern them?

(3) Is it not true that offers have been made to the staff who were former employees of Cable and Wireless Limited that might put the staff of the original Telecommunications Department in a very unfavourable position?

(4) In view of the foregoing, can the Minister say that he is satisfied that the integration talks do not concern members of the Singapore Government Technical Services Union and, therefore, they need not be represented at such talks?

(5) Can the Minister say when this integration exercise will be completed and whether delays in this exercise have caused any loss to public funds?

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, I hope the Member for Toa Payoh does not expect me to be a magician who can anticipate what he has asked and to give him full answers. I will try my best, although the query is on the personal emoluments of the Director of Telecommunications.

Cable and Wireless Limited was taken over by the Government in January 1966 and I came on the scene in April 1968. During the last eight months I have been slowly trying to pick up the threads. I have to answer to the best of my ability the five questions put by the Member.

First, whether there has been any undue delay in the integration of Cable and Wireless staff with the Telecommunications Department. Speaking as an individual, I think there has been a lot of delay because it has been going on for almost two years. There might have been difficulties in the negotiations, but I do not think I am in a position to comment favourably or unfavourably on this point.

The Member's next question is about the union and although he did not mention its name, I believe the union that he has in mind is the Telecommunications Technicians Union. There are two unions: one represents ex-Cable and Wireless staff known as the Singapore Telecommunications Workers' Union, and the other is a smaller union which represents workers in the Telecommunications Department in Government service. When the Member makes the statement that the Telecommunications Technicians Union has been refused attendance at the negotiations, I presume what he says must be correct, otherwise he will not have put this question.

The third point is that the staff of the original Telecommunications Department are put in an unfavourable position as a result of the integration of former Cable and Wireless employees in the Telecommunications Department. I think the exercise is really how to integrate Cable and Wireless Union staff into Government service. They were part of a commercial organisation, and when the Government paid $10 million to take over the assets and liabilities of Cable and Wireless Ltd., they had to look into the question of integrating 500 staff in Cable and Wire less into Government service. I do not think anyone should suffer as a result of the take-over. The delay in the discussions and negotiations must be due to the difficulty in marrying the terms of service in a commercial organisation with the terms of service in a Government institution. This has been going on for the last two years. The Member's question of integration and its effect on those in Government service who are members of the Technicians Union are, I am afraid, part of the cause of the so-called unhappiness of those in Government service at seeing people who are probably getting better pay in a commercial organisation coming into the Government service and having to learn how to adjust themselves in this situation. I understand that the negotiations for the integration of the 500 staff from the former Cable and Wireless into Government service are almost completed except for very minor matters like hours of work and so forth. I would hate to pass comment at this stage when the negotiations are about to be completed on how to resolve the little difficulties which are to be found in all negotiations. Nobody is ever happy about his salary scale. Even those who get an increment complain that they deserve more. This is part and parcel of life.

I hope that the matter can be resolved provided the Ministry of Finance will relent in its attitude, because in all these negotiations, representatives from the Ministry of Finance will be there to ensure that a fair deal is given to the new employees. I do not think I can go further than that.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am quite satisfied with the Minister's explanation and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $17,740,440 for Head 0806 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Head 0807 -

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0807 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001*.

• The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

7.25 p.m.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: Sir, first, I would like to talk about the horns of motor vehicles. I think the horn is used to warn pedestrians but, at present, we can hear the sounds of multi-tone horns and we do not know whether the children are meddling with the horns or whether the sound actually comes from the car. Some horns produce a sound like that of a dog barking, some sound like music and some even produce the sounds of the siren of an ambulance, a fire engine or a police patrol car. I do not know whether such horns have been approved by the Registry of Vehicles. I am afraid that if the horns in use on motor vehicles are not standardised, then it will not be safe for the pedestrians.

Another point is about the obnoxious smoke emitted by motor vehicles. I understand that such smoke is dangerous and harmful to health. It is usually emitted from public vehicles and sometimes also by private cars. What measures have been taken by the Registry of Vehicles to deal with it?

The next point is about the cleanliness in public buses. It seems that less attention is being paid to this matter and most of the buses are very dirty, both inside and outside. They are not properly washed. The Registry of Vehicles should take steps to improve this situation.

Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon (Tiong Bahru): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the point I wish to raise concerns the auction of old vehicles confiscated by the Government. During the auctions, many old, dilapidated and unserviceable vehicles are sold. As a result, the public have been able to buy some of these vehicles at the lowest possible price and they can use them as pirate taxis. We therefore very frequently see such pirate taxis on the road. So the measures taken against pirate taxis are more or less offset by the auction of confiscated vehicles which are eventually put back on the road.

I would like to ask the Minister whether in future auctions of confiscated vehicles, all those unserviceable vehicles will be condemned, and what steps will be taken to ensure that auctioned vehicles will not be used as pirate taxis.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin (Jalan Kayu): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to take the opportunity to ask the Minister whether he will consider introducing legislation requiring all vehicles that have been on the road for, say, 10 years, to undergo a road-worthiness test annually. I am quite sure a great number of accidents are caused by faulty brakes, steering and poor mechanical maintenance. The breakdown of such vehicles very often causes road congestion. I think this is one aspect into which we should look.

7.30 p.m.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: In reply to the Member for Delta, I would like to say that it is an offence to install what are known as multi-tone horns. It will be of great assistance if those who do come across such cases are able to report the registration numbers of the vehicles concerned to the Registry of Vehicles so that a summons can be issued to the owners of such vehicles and action can be taken against them.

May I say that the owners of 388 vehicles were summoned by the Registry of Vehicles for an inspection of their cars from January to November of this year and that 203 cases were compounded by the Traffic Police for $20 each. So the implementation falls on another Ministry - the Ministry of Defence. It is felt that perhaps this fine of $20 is much too lenient and that consideration can be given to an increase in the fine in the future. However, this is a matter which will have to be left in the hands of my colleague, the Minister for Defence.

The Minister for Defence (Mr Lim Kim San): The Minister for Law.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: It is now up to the Minister for Law to consider whether a higher fine will be more effective to deter musical-minded motorists from installing multi-tone horns in their cars.

7.32 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: The same applies to vehicles which emit exhaust smoke. May I say that they are largely cars with diesel engines. This is a fairly serious matter because, from the health point of view, unburnt petrol gas is known to be carcinogenic, which means that it can help to produce cancer in the lungs. The campaign against vehicles which emit exhaust smoke commenced in April 1967, it may be of interest to Members of this House that 5,337 vehicles were summoned to the Registry of Vehicles for mechanical inspection during the last II months of this year. Of this number, 3,848 cases were compounded by the Traffic Police, again at a cost of $20 each. So perhaps if the fine is raised to $200 each, we may see a reduction in the number of cars going around emitting exhaust smoke. In the present regulations, there is a section which says that the penalty for the first offence is a fine not exceeding $400, and for a second or subsequent offences a fine not exceeding $1,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months. So I think we already have rather heavy penalties in the law. I think I will try to persuade my colleague, the Minister for Defence, to be a little hard on his Traffic Police and order them not to agree to compound an offence for just $20. There is this harsh regulation which can be applied.

I agree that the buses are not looking as clean as they should. Unfortunately, even after the "Keep Singapore Clean" campaign - I think the Ministry of Communications has given its full support to the Ministry of Health in this regard - there are some buses which are very unclean and therefore the atten tion of the bus companies should be drawn to the fact that they are expected to keep their buses clean. I will instruct the Registrar of Vehicles to issue the notices accordingly.

The Member for Tiong Bahru spoke on a subject which more or less moves away from the Ministry of Communi cations to another Ministry - the confiscation of vehicles which are presumed to be pirate taxis. Until very recently, the seizure of pirate taxis could be done by the police - and that comes under the Ministry of Defence! But we have asked for powers to seize such vehicles next year. For the time being, in view of the Member's question, I will say that as this matter is in the hands of the police, it will be left to the Ministry of the Interior and Defence to deal with. It would appear that all confiscated vehicles are auctioned.

An hon. Member: By the Ministry of Defence.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Sir, it looks as if it goes round and round - once it is not in our hands, it goes to somebody else and it ends up by becoming a problem. I do agree that steps should be taken to see that old vehicles should not be auctioned but should be condemned and sold as scrap iron to National Iron and Steel Mills Ltd. It is useless to auction ramshackle cars for just a few hundred dollars and then overnight they appear on the road as pirate taxis awaiting capture again for the second and third time. I myself support the proposal of the Member for Tiong Bahru that this matter be given serious consideration. This ties up with the suggestion of the Member for Jalan Kayu that steps should be taken to consider the possibility of not permitting motor vehicles which are more than ten years old to be on the road. I think this suggestion has merit except that those who are in possession of cars which are more than ten years old may include some Members of this House.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: On a point of clarification, Sir.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin resumed his seat.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: I did not suggest that we condemn old cars. I suggest that old cars should pass a road-worthiness test once a year. If they do not pass such a test, they should be condemned.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am grateful to the Member for Jalan Kayu for his clarification. I thought he had suggested something stiffer on which I was going to support him. Now he prefers to be lax and so I shall not be hard. I will consider his suggestion for possible implementation as soon as possible, that all cars which are ten years old should be subjected to a road-worthiness test and that those cars which fail the test will not be permitted to be on the road.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to raise some points on safety measures for haulage vehicles.

It is not an uncommon sight nowadays to see goods-carrying vehicles flouting safety regulations with im punity. For instance, take the lorries that convey materials such as steel rods, concrete beams and oil drums along the public roads. Some of these concrete beams and steel rods are nearly twice as long as the lorry itself. I am sure that this constitutes a safety hazard. There are also vehicles that are licensed to carry goods up to a certain tonnage, depending on the size and capacity of the vehicle. Some of the transport contractors have taken advantage of this regulation and they pile up goods several feet high on their lorries. To make matters worse, the attendants sit on top of the goods. Two months ago, in Jurong, I noticed a lorry conveying four large crates of knocked-down car units which were not secured with rope, and while rounding a circus, one of the crates fell on the road. It was fortunate that there were no vehicles around at that time, otherwise it could have caused a very serious accident.

Another factor contributing to accidents is the traffic-indicators on lorries and buses. Many lorries --particularly earth-carrying lorries - are covered with mud and some of them have no lenses. So no one will know whether the lights are red or white. There is also the position of the indicators. Some of them are hidden below the rear fenders of the vehicles. They are very difficult to see until one is two feet away from the vehicles.

May I suggest that the Ministry look into this matter and ensure that goods of exceptional length are conveyed in trailers, unless the vehicle so used is of sufficient length to accommodate at least two-thirds of the length of such materials.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I am grateful to the Member for Toa Payoh for his suggestions to improve road safety. He has spoken on certain road hazards such as lorries carrying steel rods which are twice the length of the lorry itself, lorries carrying numerous drums which are not secured with rope, and lorries laden with goods which are very much heavier than what they are licensed to carry. I think these are matters which impinge on certain technicalities and I am not in a position to answer them straight off. But I will bring them up to the correct authority who will look into the matter. It can be the Registrar of Vehicles. It can be the -

Mr Lim Kim San: Ministry of Defence.

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: I myself do not know where it ends up. Sometimes it is the Ministry of Defence; sometimes it is my Ministry and sometimes it is the P.W.D.

I think it is quite a common occurrence to see attendants sitting on top of lorries ---

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Culture (Mr Fong Sip Chee): They are acrobats!

Mr Yong Nyuk Lin: It is not an acrobatic matter. Unfortunately, if there are some overhanging trees, the poor attendants will be swept off the lorries and they will end up in the emergency ward of the hospital!

I think traffic indicators and their positions are technical matters which are probably being looked after by my Registry of Vehicles. If it is so, they will certainly look into the matter further. I can assure the Member - as promised yesterday - that it is the intention of the Ministry of Communications to institute a campaign on road safety and the observance of traffic regulations, etc, next year. We hope to be able to improve the situation and to draw the attention of members of the public to the dangers which now prevail on our roads.

7.45 p.m.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I am satisfied with the Minister's reply. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,712,990 for Head 0807 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: Before I go on to the next head, may I just refer to one matter which the Minister for Communications raised. I do not think it is quite fair for Members to expect accurate and satisfactory answers on matters of minute detail in the discussion of the Estimates. So for the remainder of the Estimates, I hope they will bear that in mind.

Head 0901 -

The following amendment stood in the names of Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon, Mr Lim Cheng Lock and Madam Chan Choy Siong -

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon and Mr Lim Cheng Lock have indicated to me they are not moving this amendment. Madam Chan Choy Siong.

Madam Chan Choy Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head 0901 be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead 1001.

Mr Speaker, Sir, as we all know, the Ministry of Defence is the most important establishment in a country. It is in charge of national defence and the security of the people. When Singapore achieved its independence, a Ministry of Defence was set up. Since then it has achieved much in the direction of national defence.

In a very short time, however, this Ministry will have to face an even more onerous task. From 1969 up till 1971, there will be a phased withdrawal of British military troops from Singapore. Within this short space of time the Ministry of Defence will have to tackle all the problems relating to the security of our people and the defence of our country. I would like to ask the Minister for Defence these questions. When the British troops are completely withdrawn in the l970s, will concrete measures be taken to fill the vacuum created by the British military withdrawal?

Another question is this. At present countries like Australia and New Zealand are also assisting us in our defence. I would like to ask the Minister whether Australian troops will be stationed in Singapore for a long time.

The third question is this. In view of the British military withdrawal from Singapore, will the national service scheme envisage a reduction in the age of recruits? If so, this should also apply to women. I understand that at present there is a women's defence force serving under the Ministry of Defence. I would like to know whether it is intended to increase the strength of this women's defence force. If so, what will be the conditions of service? Will they be the same as those of the men?

Mr Ng Yeow Chong: (In Mandarin): When I asked a question for oral answer, I was given to understand that we are going to celebrate the sesquicentennial of Singapore. But there is no provision for such an occasion. Provision for celebrations of this nature, for example, the National Day celebration, is normally entered under Head 0901 for defence expenditure.

I would like to ask the Minister why there is no provision under this head for the celebration of the 150th anniversary of Singapore.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): I remember I raised a question on the People's Defence Force. Everyone of the members of this force received only one set of uniform. Even at the moment they have only one set of uniform. The second point is that they are not given a transport allowance, whereas Vigilante Corps members do receive it.

Mr Rodrigo: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to a trend that is perhaps relevant to this subject. I am not making an allegation or accusation of any sort, because I do understand that it will be largely conjecture on my part.

The Minister is quite aware of the fact that there is written into our Constitution a provision that an accused who is apprehended or arrested can be detained for only 24 hours in a police station, after which he must be brought before the court except for certain exceptional circumstances, for instance, when an accused is arrested on a Saturday. At the same time, we have detention laws in our country. These detention laws are exceptional laws, because they empower the authorities to detain a person apprehended without trial.

I did submit a question to the Minister to answer in respect of the number of detentions. I found that a substantial number of persons who were detained under the detention laws were subsequently charged before the court. The Minister is aware that if the police authorities proceed under the detention laws, they would be empowered to detain the persons apprehended beyond 24 hours. Of course, if this tendency is real, then there is an evasion of an important constitu tional protection. By making use of the detention laws, the police authorities would be able to detain the apprehended person for more than 24 hours and then subsequently have him charged before the court. Constitutionally speaking, he ought to be released within 24 hours if he is not charged before the court. My question to the Minister also did reveal that in a number of cases where detention was made under the Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Ordinance, such persons were subsequently charged before the court.

8.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. It is now 8.00 p.m.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st January, 1969, to 31st March, 1970, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Speaker: So be it.