MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1983 TO 31ST MARCH, 1984

Order read for resumed consideration in Committee of Supply [4th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head J (cont.) -

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan (Whampoa): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead JC-03 of the Main Estimates.*

Sir, 15 months ago the Jayakumar Report on Censorship was submitted to the Minister for Culture. If I may quote some sentences from that Report:

'12.1 Singapore's most important resource is its people, The discipline and moral fibre of its people is vital, An erosion of discipline and standards of morality is detrimental to the national interest. We thus cannot afford the permissiveness associated with certain aspects of life in some other countries.

12.2 Singapore, like most other societies, recognizes that children and young persons are the most important group in need of protection. Thus our censorship policies must pay special attention to children and young persons and must not undermine what we are seeking to achieve in schools through moral education.' And paragraph 18, on excessive violence:

'18. It is often thought that the main focus of censorship is on sex exploitation. While that is an important concern, there is also cause for serious concern over films which show excessive violence, gory scenes, sadism as well as horror. The frequency of such matters being depicted in films is objectionable.'

Sir, my purpose in raising this amendment is to seek some figures from the Minister for Culture and to ascertain from him the policy of censorship in the following categories of movies and video tapes. First of all, horror movies. It has been my impression that we are plagued by many horror movies being exhibited in our theatres. Secondly, there are movies involving discotheques or rock music being shown in our theatres. Such movies or such music are often associated with drug culture and permissiveness. Thirdly, there are a lot of martial arts films being shown both in the cinema theatres and on TV. These films typically exhibit a lot of violence and encourage negative feelings of revenge and hatred.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Culture (Mr S. Dhanabalan): Mr Speaker, Sir, on the subject of censorship, there will always be differences of opinion as all of us have different backgrounds, different experiences and different expectations. The censors do not expect everyone to agree with what they do because, as I have said, the whole question is very subjective. But it does not mean that it is arbitrary. I have often been taken to task by other Members in this House for being too strict. The Member for Alexandra is one who has often spoken to me on this matter. I am very much tempted to ask him to explain to the Member for Whampoa and, if the two of them can come out with an agreed guideline, I will be very happy to pass it on to the censors. Whatever decision we make on this question, we will be criticized by one group as being too liberal and by another group as being too puritanical.

Sir, with that as a background, I would like to make it clear to the Member for Whampoa that we are very concerned about violence in films and video tapes and the impact of such films of violence on children. There was a time when during school holidays many of the movie houses used to show films of special appeal to children, such as Walt Disney films, which used to be shown together with trailers of coming films, akan datang. These trailers, of course, did not differentiate between children's films and adult films. Trailer films depicting violence and dealing with themes which are more for adults were usually shown together with feature films which are basically meant for children. As one of the recommendations of the Jayakumar Report dealt with this particular aspect, and since the recommendations were accepted by the Government, theatres have been told and, in fact, trailers are now censored and passed by the Board of Film Censors with an indication as to whether or not it can be screened before an audience of children.

As far as horror films are concerned, opinions also vary a lot. Some horror films in trying to be frightening, in fact, are funny, whereas others which are supposed to be funny and deal with serious themes can be horrors. But the kind of horror films that the Member for Whampoa is referring to are those dealing with the supernatural and similar subjects. I am told that in the year 1982, 54 out of more than 1,000 feature films were films that dealt with horror and the supernatural as subjects. Of these 54 films, 47 were passed for exhibition and seven were banned. Surprisingly, very few video tapes were submitted for censorship that dealt with or which could be classified as horror films or horror tapes. As regards video tapes, out of more than 20,000 tapes, only 13 dealt with the horror and the supernatural, Perhaps most of the real horrors were never submitted for censorship.

As for rock music, in the same year, i.e. 1982, only one film and two video tapes were submitted for censorship, and they were all passed for public exhibition. Sir, I know that music, like censorship, evokes many different responses from people. I myself do not like what passes for music these days, but I would hesitate to impose my taste and my view on others. But where the music is related to the propagation of drug culture, or where it is related to drug culture, we are very strict. If any Member comes across films or songs which glorify drug culture and that somehow managed to pass the film censors or SBC, I would very much like to hear from him so that we can take specific action. It is not practical to ban all films and video tapes dealing with horror, the supernatural, or with rock music. When it comes to horror or the supernatural, parental supervision is important. After all, if such films are being shown in the cinema, I think the parents should exercise some sort of supervision and control, and even more so if these films are screened on TV. Over TV, SBC is particularly careful, although SBC has been accused of occasionally telecasting films under this category. But they are mindful of this and, as I have said, if there are specific instances where the Member for Whampoa or others have complaints, I will always be happy to listen to them. 3.30 p.m.

Dr Augustine Tan: Mr Speaker, Sir, I do recognize that censorship policy is a difficult policy to implement. At the same time, our children must be protected from a steady diet of horror films. We all know the devil is very real but when we glorify him and we put him in films, this can lead to a lot of fear being instilled in very young people. Perhaps the Hon. Minister could liaise with the Ministry of Health, the psychiatric wards, to find out how many people have been subjected to fear or have a lot of fears and nightmares as a result of horror movies. I do not mean to simply refer to children because I have seen cases of adults having such nightmares and fears.

Perhaps this House should also be aware that there are many examples of rock music where there are attempts at subliminal influence. There are certain tapes which if played at very fast speeds, messages are conveyed across that way. I am also told that there is this thing called backward masking where, if one plays the tape or the record backwards, one can hear messages like "smoke marijuana, smoke marijuana" or "heroin is good" or "worship satan, worship satan." I have personally heard some of these things being played. So I just want to draw this to the attention of this House.

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, I would be happy to get the details from the Member for Whampoa about these songs which are played at different speeds and even backwards. My turntable is not capable of running backwards. Maybe there are, but I certainly will look into this if the Member can give me some details.

As to people having nightmares and having a mental breakdown as a result of seeing horror films, why do people watch horror films if it gives them nightmares? I really find it difficult to understand. But if people quite innocently watch these horror films and then are horrified and become mental cases, and there are records of such cases, I would certainly ask the Minister for Health to let me have the details so that I can look at them. But frankly I would think that, in all these cases, the simplest solution is to switch off the TV or not go to the theatre if you are so affected by the horror films. But this does not mean, and I must make it very clear, that we are just going to allow any kind of films into the theatres or to be shown on TV and expect people to exercise their own censorship. No, we will exercise censorship but since it is a subject that cannot be agreed upon by everybody and people have many different views, ultimately the person must decide for himself whether he wants to watch the film or not. We can only do so much. But as I said just now, if something has slipped passed the censors which should not have, I will be happy to get details and deal with such cases.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I thank the Minister for his assurance and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Tan Soo Khoon-

(7) That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead JD-01 of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment (7), Mr Tan.

Mr Tan Soo Khoon (Alexandra): I am not moving, Sir.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis (Telok Blangah): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead JE-01 of the Main Estimates.*

Many years ago when I was a school-boy, I had a memorable encounter with a public library. I wanted to read the series of books known as The Saint by Leslie Charteris. The Saint series was very popular with schoolboys then. Being financially poor, I could not afford to buy them, so I had to resort to our public library. To my dismay, the librarian at the National Library told me that the library did not stock such books because they were in popular paperbacks and could be obtained at any bookshop. I found the reasoning strange, to say the least. It was because those books were popular that I wanted to read them, and it was because I could not afford to buy them that I went to the public library.

That was my first and last encounter with our public library. However, times have changed and situations and policies have changed too, for the better I must add.

It was only in 1979, when I became MP and when I was asked to open a book fair organized by one of my RCs in conjunction with the Queenstown Branch library, that I visited a public library again. My visit was to help me prepare my speech. The librarian and her staff were most helpful and informative. Based on the visit, I found that our public library services have been both enlarged and enriched. Besides having a better collection of books, there were popular paper-backs and even picture books for the younger members. Story-telling sessions have been developed to an art. Our younger generation is therefore better off in terms of public library services and facilities because besides providing reading and reference books, our public libraries have other community services. I then took great pleasure in visiting the other branch libraries. I saw long queues at these libraries of students and adults being served by library staff courteously and efficiently. However, I could see that the line-balancing was poor due to inadequate manning levels. But there was always good service by the library staff.

Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the staff of our public libraries for their quiet dedication and hard-work to serve our reading public. I know that in most cases they are short-handed and are working under heavy workload pressure and I hope the Minister would investigate and review the situation. There must be good reasons for the low manning levels and, in his usual efficient manner, I am sure he can sort out this situation much to the benefit of both the library staff and the reading public.

Sir, while I can compliment the library staff for their good work, I regret to say that this cannot be said of the planners of our public libraries. Let me explain. Recently, we had an island-wide blackout, the first in many years. In the papers the next day, I saw a photograph of the National Library staff working in candlelight. While appreciating the blind dedication and enthusiasm of the library staff, the situation made me ask a few questions:

(1) Why were candle-lights necessary? Did the library not have any emergency lighting which is battery-powered to tide the library over the initial period of the blackout to clear the people in order to avoid a possible panic situation. This is a simple fail-safe situation which any planner worth his salt should implement.

(2) I know that most Singaporeans have taken the services of the PUB for granted because they have been excellent all these years. But as planners of public buildings where a panic situation involving children could arise, they must avoid such situation. Do the planners not think this to be necessary? Or maybe the planners just do not think?

(3) Any schoolboy knows that the naked flame of a candle-light will easily burn the dry pages of a book. Therefore, what about fire hazards? Besides burning the valuable collection of reference books, the fire may also destroy Singapore's most valuable asset - her people.

Of course, we can say, "Well, the blackout happened in the day and furthermore no one was hurt". If this is going to be the answer, then it is time we planned to get new planners, because I cannot accept the risk of a disaster before we do something sensible. Neither will I accept the need for stringent economic evaluations when lives are concerned.

Sir, prompted by this situation, I visited the new library at Bukit Merah Town Centre recently with a view to looking into the fire protection system as this library would be patronized by my constituents and their children. There the facilities appeared better and the staff were as usual helpful and took pride in their new branch library facilities. Since it was a school holiday, there were many school children and many young ones were with their parents. I was informed that this library, being new, had emergency lighting which did help to tide the library over for up to two hours during the blackout. So far so good. It appeared that we have learnt with time.

But my feeling of comfort disappeared when I climbed six flights of stairs to the third storey auditorium. To a layman like me, here we have a first-class well-designed fire trap.

I am told that the auditorium can hold 270 children seated but generally about 300 children are packed in there because the programmes staged here are good. Therefore, in case of a fire, you will have 300 screaming children rushing through one door into the narrow corridor leading to the six flights of stairs to the ground floor. To be fair, there is another door, but it leads to the same corridor leading to the same six flights of stairs from the third floor down to the ground floor. There is no visible sign of windows where the children could possibly jump out. To make it intriguing, the occupants of an adjoining reference room on the same third floor with a seating capacity of 100 persons, in case of fire also have to go via the same corridor to the same six flights of stairs down to the ground floor.

To make sure that the least number of the 400 persons survive, and to add to the load factor, the second floor has a reading room with a capacity of 140 persons; with two exits, one leading to this same flight of stairs. So we have another 70 persons coming down the same staircase where 400 persons try to rush down from the top. To top it all, some of the people in the ground floor room, which has a capacity of 140 persons, will use the same door at the end of this staircase.

Will the Minister please investigate tile situation? Please note that this public library has been operating for about three months now, and the crowd is getting larger. When I asked about the fire alarm system and whether it is connected directly to the Fire Station thereby ensuring assistance without someone having to ring for the Fire Brigade, the answer was yes when there is a line. Therefore, somehow, somewhere, someone has been sleeping on the job because while the library has been operating for the past three months, the fire alarm connection to the Fire Station has yet to be done.

Will the Minister please look into the matter because it is unlike our usual Singaporean efficiency?

What is strange is when I was monitoring the building of the Telok Blangah Community Centre, the Building Control Division, the guardian angel of public safety, appeared to be embarrassingly and unthinkingly dogmatic about safety precautions. For instance, the Telok Blangah Community Centre squash courts must be the only ones which have protruding automatic door closers on the inside of the courts. I wonder how the umpire will decide if the squash ball hits them. I now begin to question the expertise of the BCD with regard to safety standards in the light of the Bukit Merah Library. BCD cannot be entirely blamed for the situation as, I am sure, based on the Community Centre experience, the Fire Services Department must share the load as they are experts in this matter and must have been consulted and have given their approval for the plans.

Sir, I could go on but I feel I have made the point and an investigation must be carried out not only into Bukit Merah Library but all public libraries because some of the older ones do not even have fire alarm systems installed yet.

Encik Mansor Haji Sukaimi: Mr Speaker, Sir, I wish to join my dear colleague, the hon. Member for Telok Blangah, in extending my compliments to the staff of the National Library. I have found the staff generally very open to ideas and suggestions, and they maintain close rapport with people who are interested in the library programmes. In fact, in the last three or four years, I have had the privilege of getting valuable service and advice from many staff of the National Library and Marine Parade Branch Library. What impressed me is that the library system is no more the "lending-and-borrowing" concept: it has gone beyond that.

3.45 p.m.

Library service has for a number of years had programmes to promote good reading habits at the grassroots levels and even at homes. I am delighted to know that the National Library is having a joint programme with a number of civic organiza- tions in the promotion of home library scheme. In this regard I wish to make some suggestions.

I would like to suggest that "target groups" of children and their parents who are likely to benefit from the home library scheme be clearly identified. In this regard I could name a few. The National Library could have very close relations with the community centres where there are kindergartens. I am sure the kindergarten committees in those centres could help in bringing or relating the programmes and materials to the parents of these children. Secondly, there are a number of civic organizations which undertake reading development programmes. Likewise I would like to suggest that the collaboration between such civic organizations and the National Library assistants be expanded. Thirdly, I have seen the booklets and pamphlets which have been prepared by the National Library and I think they are very useful. In fact, in many of them the librarians have made use of the materials from research done in America, Europe and other countries and, more importantly, they have simplified these materials. There may be a need to translate some of these books because there are parents who could be better reached not just through the English language.

The next point is, "How do the National Library assistants maintain effective contact with the young parents, or parents with young children?" I think we can keep on organizing seminars, workshops and other promotion programmes. But I would like to suggest that the National Library develop a system whereby, first, they identify the types of congregations, meetings or gatherings where there are large numbers of mothers or young parents. Secondly, they should keep in touch with organizers of such functions and gatherings. Thirdly, they should make available the promotion leaflets and seek the consent of the organizers of those functions to speak at the gatherings for five or 10 minutes about the programmes that are being undertaken by the National Library. I saw this being conducted Sunday last where one of the librarians took advantage of speaking in a seminar where there were about 400 young parents. I thought that initiative was useful as a promotion effort because, with that five or ten minutes, the librarian who spoke at that seminar was able to inform the gathering of 400 young parents about the various activities that are being planned by the National Library.

Finally, Sir, and I say this without any disrespect to the Library staff. I would like to suggest that the staff be made more familiar with the techniques of contact with grassroots leaders and with grassroots activists. They may be knowledgeable in their respective fields but there is a need for the Library staff to be trained and to gain experience in relating themselves with the grassroots leaders, mixing with them, and also in developing the techniques of selling the programmes that they have developed in the National Library. I am sure this can be done and, if done effectively, they will get the full support of the leaders of grassroots organizations.

The Minister of State for Culture (Maj Fong Sip Chee): Mr Speaker, Sir, with the accolade from both the Members, I thought I hardly need to reply. I am glad to note that there is the return of the "prodigal reader" in the Library. Apparently his first and last- visit was a disappointment. Apparently too, he did quite well without the services of the Library. Probably he has his own library. I want to congratulate him for that.

Providing candle-light service is far from the scheme of things in the National Library. The hon. Member for Telok Blangah believed that the consumption of mental food is better done under proper lighting than the consumption of food in the romantic environment of candle-light. That was unfortunate, Sir. It was hardly expected. They ought to have been more forward in their thinking, although not too complimentary to the PUB, but they ought to have battery lights really. But on that day we did not realize that the black-out would last that long, and when it dawned on us that it was going to be a long blackout - it took several hours to restore the supply - we had to close the library. So candles were put up just to allow those people who had taken the trouble and time to go down to the library to return their books. It would be unpleasant for us to turn them away. So we obliged them. But when we learned that the black-out was to last longer, we closed the service. The library acted after the public announcement. Battery lights and alternative lighting arrangements will be made so that in case of future black-outs we do not have to serve under candle-light service.

The Member for Telok Blangah is concerned about the safety of the Bukit Merah Branch Library. As he quite rightly pointed out, the library building is designed by the PWD. They have their own building code and they have got their channel of consultation between various Government departments, including the Fire Brigade on the matter of fire safety. I am sure the various aspects of fire safety have been taken into consideration.

The Branch Library has two emergency or fire exits provided for each of the three floors. Unfortunately they lead to the same corridor, as in all buildings. We cannot have a separate corridor leading one way. The corridors are wide enough for people to evacuate without causing a stampede. I think the Member is assuming that the library is often packed to full capacity. That is not the case. It is not full all the time. All the floors are equipped with fire extinguishers and hose reels, and all the main doors are fire-resistant. An automatic fire alarm system has also been installed and this conforms to the standard stipulated by SISIR. Unfortunately, Sir, the fire alarm link to the Queensway Fire Station has not been connected. It is because the Fire Brigade has just received their equipment. So there is no point having the link to the alarm system. In fact, if they had sounded the alarm, it would be even more dangerous because no help from the Fire Brigade will be forthcoming. The telephone line to the alarm system will be connected very soon.

The Member for Kampong Kembangan has also paid tribute to our library staff. I am very grateful, Sir, because the library service is not a glamorous service. It has no glamour indeed, but it is just a core of dedicated, hardworking people who love what they call "library science", which is beyond our comprehension. But I can assure Members that it is a very interesting vocation and it demands a special breed of people with the right kind of aptitude. I thank the two Members for their shower of praises upon them. Without being accused of being immodest, I think they deserve every good word that has just been said.

May I just briefly lay down the line of action and the philosophy of the National Library. The National Library is community-orientated in its provision of services. It undertakes activities which the Member for Kampong Kembangan has just out-lined. One of the Library's joint projects with civic organizations is the holding of book exhibitions in the void decks of the various housing estates, organized jointly with the CCCs and the RCs. These exhibitions are aimed at promoting the reading habit and the library services itself. Music, dance, drama, and Youth clubs of the Central and Branch libraries participate in variety concerts organized by the CCCs and the RCs too on special occasions such as National Day, Hari Raya, Chinese New Year and Deepavali. These activities help to strengthen ties with the people, as the Member has suggested. Other joint projects include the holding of story-telling sessions, essay writing, quizzes and charades. All these activities are aimed at promoting the reading habit.

The Library home-based reading promotion programme includes workshops for parents of pre-school children to encourage them to read with their children at home so as to encourage their children to read. The Library distributes simple leaflets in the four languages to parents and to readers on the importance of reading. These leaflets will be distributed also to mosques at the request of Mendaki so that the importance of reading can be conveyed. The Library also issues a large variety of booklists aimed at helping parents to choose good books for them- selves as well as for their children. These leaflets have been improved because more are being printed now and with even more attractive designs.

The Library is aware of the need to direct programmes to specific target groups, and this has been done. The target groups are children at pre-primary and pre-school levels, teenagers at secondary school level and adults. The library also directs more book promotion programmes towards teachers since they have influence over their students.

The National Library takes on a very active role in relating its promotional activities to the activities of civic bodies. It provides these organizations with books on various subjects for their activities. Some of these civic organizations are the Singapore Association for Mental Health (the Member for Whampoa will be pleased to know), the Singapore Anti-Narcotics Association, Mendaki, the Singapore Business and Professional Women's Association. The Library has also reached out to community leaders, educationists, voluntary social workers, civic-minded members of the public and the professionals in the provision of library services. They have volunteered as speakers for talks and forums at the National Library and its branches. Many people have volunteered as story tellers and judges of various competitions aimed at promoting the Library service. The advice of professionals and specialists has been sought in connection with book selection. The Library will continue to enlist the participation and assistance from the community.

Sir, we recognize the need to develop the personnel for the Library and the means for community-based programmes. Some years ago the function was such that there was always one group of officers doing promotion. Members may wish to know that library staff are rotated to various areas to help them provide better library services and develop an understanding of the people.

Sir, I assure the two Members that the Library will continue to use the various resources to expand their programmes and try to reach out as much as we can and as far as we can to the community.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, in view of the Minister's filibustering and the guillotine, I am forced to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $27,515,400 for Head J ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $28,705,000 for Head J ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head I - 4.00 p.m.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates.*

Sir, in moving this amendment I wish to make a suggestion to improve our postal services and to request the Minister to investigate the SIA shuttle service. Sir, with the success of our family planning and productivity drive, it is not uncommon for both husband and wife of a Singaporean family to be working. Usually the children are sent to their grandparents' home to be looked after when their parents go to work. Therefore, the flats, where 75% of Singaporeans live, tend to be empty during office hours. It is also not uncommon for a hardworking postman delivering an AR registered mail or the like to find the addressee not at home. So he goes down the block of flats leaving behind a note that he will try again the next day. The next day the situation is repeated, with no success. Therefore, the addressee will have to either arrange for someone to collect the AR registered letter or to collect himself or herself on a Saturday morning if he or she is not working. Is this not a waste of time and effort for all parties concerned?

I propose that Telecoms consider either delivering the AR registered mail and local urgent mail letters in the evenings to the flat dwellers or open the post offices until 9.00 p.m. on weekdays. Alternatively, Telecoms could consider delivering the AR registered mail or LUM letters in the evenings to the flats only after they have failed to deliver them during office hours in the first instance try.

On shuttle service, I would ask the Minister whether he is aware of the unhappiness of the commuters on the SIA-MAS shuttle service. From the many complaints, it appears that this service is no shuttle service but more like a scramble service. Will the Minister please look into the matter and further improve the service?

The Chairman: Mr Tan Soo Khoon is not here. Mr Ong.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah has made two suggestions, namely, the delivery of registered articles and local urgent mail (LUM) service items be made after office hours. Before I proceed, I wish to point out that because of the high labour cost and manpower constraints, Telecoms presently makes only one attempt to deliver the registered articles and the LUM service items. The Member's suggestion that registered articles be delivered after office hours is being examined by Telecoms presently.

The delivery of registered mail to the addressees is a very laborious and time-consuming task, as these articles have to be taken right up to the doorstep of the addressees. This problem is further aggravated by the fact that as much as 20% of the trips made by postmen in HDB estates to deliver the registered items are unsuccessful because no one is at home to accept them, as the Member has mentioned earlier. This is an unnecessary waste of manpower. Addressees of undeliverable registered items also face much inconvenience as they have to take time off from work to collect their registered articles from the post offices. In view of this problem, Telecoms is looking into the feasibility of extending the hours of business of the post offices in major housing estates to enable the addressees to collect their registered mail after office hours. Telecoms is also looking into the feasibility of introducing a new category of registration service called "Recorded delivery service", whereby delivery of the articles will be recorded by the postmen without obtaining the receipting signa- tures of the addressees. Telecoms will study all the possibilities and consider whether any of them is feasible for adoption.

As regards the Member's suggestion on LUM service, Telecoms has found that it is not productive for postmen to deliver LUM articles after office hours. This is because over 90% of LUM traffic are urgent mail for the business community. If the LUM items are delivered after office hours, chances are that they will not be delivered because most of the offices would already have been closed. This was the experience of the former Postal Services Department when it provided delivery in the late afternoon, after 4.00 p.m. and 6.00 p.m. during the initial years of the LUM service.

As regards the SIA shuttle service, I am aware and I think most of us are aware that the service is not operating as satisfactorily as we hoped to see. SIA and MAS review this shuttle service regularly and they have mounted additional services when the demand is high. This has been done, although it has not solved all the problems. I believe that both SIA and MAS have agreed to reschedule their other services in order to improve the service of the shuttle service, and I hope to see some improvement in the near future.

Mr Rohan bin Kamis: Sir, I am grateful to the Minister for his answers. But I wish to clarify that for the LUM mails, I know that the majority of them are for the business offices. But those that are addressed to flat dwellers should be included in the same category as the AR registered mail and should be delivered in the evenings. I do not mean that those LUM mails for the offices should be delivered in the evenings because naturally the offices would be closed too.

In view of the answer given by the Minister, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan: (2) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $1O in respect of Subhead IA-O1 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee:

Dr Augustine H.H. Tan: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IA-02 of the Development Estimates.

Mr Liew Kok Pun:

Mr S. Chandra Das:

Mr Tan Soo Khoon: (4) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $1O in respect of Subhead IE-O1 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (2), Dr Tan is not here. Amendment No. (3), Mr Eric Cheong is not here. Amendment No. (4), Mr Liew is not here. Mr Chandra Das.

Mr S. Chandra Das: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IE-01 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, I would like to touch on the subject of taxi service. Taxis offer an effective complementary service and in some ways they offer an alternative form of public transport in Singapore. This form of transportation does offer in some way also competition to the bus services offered by SBS and the other privately-run schemes. In fact, the quality of our bus services has really improved largely due to some form of orderly guided competition. Similarly, our taxi services sector which initially used to comprise badly maintained absentee owners has benefitted from the competition generated by the entry of the NTUC Comfort Taxis. However, the efficiency of our taxi services has given rise to some concern.

To date, we have a total of 10,807 taxis, of which 63% are operated by the NTUC under its owner-driver scheme. The balance 35% are taken up by the yellow-top taxis and the Singapore Airport Bus Services. The utilization rate of these taxis, however, appears to be quite low with 44% of these taxis operating on one shift and 56% on two shifts. The Ministry of Communications might want to look into new ways in which we could improve our taxi services sector. The solution, I must caution, is not for any more administrative controls. Such measures as pressure on individual taxi drivers to drive a minimum number of hours or trips per day, are short-term and unlikely to be successful. What is needed, I feel, is to introduce more orderly competition in the taxi services sector. One possibility is to allow a limited number of private companies with the relevant technical and management expertise to operate taxis on a corporate basis.

I would urge the Minister to give this suggestion some thought.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, we have granted SBS a licence to operate a fleet of 200 taxis, as one of the measures to increase the effective supply of taxis. We are all aware of the problems of a taxi shortage and have been looking into the various measures to overcome this problem, and this is only one of the measures. We hope that SBS taxis will provide healthy competition to the present taxi owners. In granting the licence to SBS, we took into consideration that it has the management capability, manpower and the necessary back-up facilities to operate a taxi company and, more importantly, its good track record of being a responsible organization.

I agree with the Member's suggestion that perhaps we can inject this concept of more competition into the taxi service. But granting a company a taxi licence requires very careful consideration. We not only want to be assured that it has the capability to operate an efficient and reliable taxi service but also that it will give fair treatment to the taxi drivers. We are not beg-rudging companies from making a profit by operating taxis but we have a moral obligation to ensure that the public gets a good service and at the same time the taxi drivers are not exploited by taxi companies.

Mr Chandra Das: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Dr Augustine H. H. Tan: (5) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IE-01 of the Development Estimates.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar:

Mr J.B. Jeyaretnam:

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff:

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IE-05 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (5), Dr Tan is not here, Amendment No. (6), Mr Jabbar.

Mr M.K.A. Jabbar (Radin Mas): Sir, I am not moving. 4.15 p.m.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I beg to move, That the sum to be allocated for Head I be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead IE-05 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, this Subhead deals with public transport, and it is about the taxi service that I wish to talk about - one or two particular aspects of it. But before I do that, in view of your ruling, may I say that my firm acts for taxi drivers in actions brought against them either by the Registrar of Vehicles or by the courts, and also for owners. But I have no personal pecuniary interest in any of the matters that I am raising here.

Sir, the first point that I wish to raise is the non-transferability of yellow top taxi plate licences. Sometime ago I asked the Minister a question as to the transferability of these yellow top taxi licences, and this was the answer given by the Minister. He said:

'Taxi licences are made non-transferable to prevent trading in such licences. It would not be proper for holders of these licences to make large windfall gains out of them.' He then referred to the situation in Hong Kong where, he said, taxi licences were being sold on the market for as much as HK$250,000. Whilst I appreciate that there might be a racket if we allow the wholesale transfer of taxi plate licences, I really cannot see the restriction at the moment that the Ministry places on the transferability of yellow top taxi plate licences. There was a report in 1978 in the newspapers.

The Chairman: Which newspaper are you referring to?

Mr Jeyaretnam: It was a report in the New Nation of 28th August, 1978, about a Ministerial statement that new taxi owners' licences had been issued only for Comfort taxis since the NTUC Cooperative started in 1971. And then, further on, there were reasons given why transfers were being restricted to Comfort taxis only.

Sir, we have heard of the desirability of encouraging competition and about the formation or allowing other companies to operate a taxi service besides the NTUC. My question is, why does the Ministry or the Registrar of Vehicles not allow individual owners of taxis or any individual to acquire a taxi and operate it as a taxi if he wishes to do so, without having to go to the NTUC? Why is it necessary to drive all intending owners of taxis into the arms of the NTUC Comfort Service? What is wrong with individuals running their own taxis which they have been doing for many years now? I do not know that the service provided by the yellow top taxi owner drivers are in any way inferior to that provided by the NTUC. So why this discrimination against the owner drivers of yellow top taxis?

I was told only recently that a yellow top taxi owner driver applied for the transfer of his taxi licence to his son. This is not a transfer on the market for a big price. This was a transfer from a father to his son. I was told that this was disallowed. He was told that he could not and the son was told, "Well, we will tell you what. You go to the NTUC and you can get a taxi there, and your father can deregister his yellow top taxi." Is it the intention of the Ministry to eventually drive out all the yellow top taxis from our roads in Singapore? I am told that all registration books for the yellow top taxis are stamped "Non-transferable". May I know what is the policy of the Ministry on this? Is it the intention that only the NTUC and perhaps selected companies approved by the Ministry should operate taxi services? What is wrong with individuals operating their own taxis? I should have thought that it was more desirable.

The Minister has spoken about companies exploiting taxi drivers and taxi owners. Well, the answer is to encourage individuals to own taxis and to operate them individually without being driven into the arms of the NTUC. Is it the intenion of the Ministry that the NTUC and a few selected companies approved by the Minister should have the monopoly of the taxi service? I think that is undesirable. We should allow these individuals to operate their own taxis. They are, as it were, running their own little businesses, and that should be encouraged. It would provide healthy competition and perhaps lead to an improvement in our taxi service and solve the problem of the shortage that we are now experiencing. So I would like the Minister to say what is the objection.

The other thing is the power that the Registrar of Vehicles possesses to suspend or to revoke the vocational licences of taxi drivers. I have asked the Minister in a previous question whether []e would consider setting up a tribunal to consider appeals from the decisions of the Registrar of Vehicles. His answer was that "the present system works satisfactorily. There is an appeal from the Registrar's decision to me as the Minister, and I do not see why we should have a tribunal." The benefit and advantage of a tribunal is that, when we do have a tribunal, there is an appeal. The taxi driver will be given an opportunity to see the case presented by the Registrar of Vehicles against him and the reasons for the Registrar of Vehicles making his decision. He will then be able to call any evidence to refute any evidence that has been presented by the Registrar of Vehicles, and to answer the reasoning of the Registrar. I think there is considerable merit in this. It is important that, as is often remarked in the courts, "justice should not only be done but must be seen to be done." And the only way it can be seen to be done is for the taxi driver to be given an opportunity to meet the objections brought forward by the Registrar of Vehicles before another tribunal and to answer them and to call his own evidence in support of his case.

I do not think - I stand corrected - that the present system of appeal allows for this. I would like to know how the Minister decides on any appeal from a taxi driver against the decision of the Registrar of Vehicles at the moment. Does he merely see the report from the Registrar of Vehicles and then makes up his mind on it? Or does he give the taxi driver an opportunity to further address him?

The Chairman: Five seconds left.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes. My final appeal is - I know this has been made before - would the Minister consider withdrawing the charge of $2 for taxis entering the CBD area?

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff (Kaki Bukit): Sir, let me take this opportunity to bring up an issue which is basically about the needs of my constituents. I would like to bring to the attention of the Hon. Minister the plight of the residents in Neighbourhood 7, Bedok North, Bedok Reservoir Road. They depend on Feeder Bus Service No. 228 to move in and out of their estate and through the bus interchange. Children living in that particular estate also depend on this service to go to their schools, particularly the five schools in the same estate.

What I am most concerned is the efficiency of this bus system. I brought up this matter as an Oral Question for the Minister to answer in the previous Sitting, and I was told that a Comprehensive Bus Study was being made for the further improvement of the bus service, particularly to introduce a two-way run for the benefit of the residents. I hope I can get a categorical answer from the Minister on behalf of the residents. This matter was raised with the SBS about a year ago. A promise was made but it has still not yet been implemented.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, before I give my reply to the specific questions raised by the Member for Anson, I would like to take this opportunity to go back a little into history to explain the rationale for the various taxi policies that have been adopted by the Government.

Prior to 1962, there was no restriction as to who could own a taxi. Anyone who could afford to purchase a vehicle could apply to register it as a taxi. This resulted in taxi licences being issued to persons who did not hold taxi drivers' vocational licences and to individuals and companies holding fleets of taxi. Very few taxi drivers then could afford to own taxis. These individuals and companies who owned taxis had no proper management control and no workshop facilities to maintain and operate a good, clean and efficient taxi service, and taxi drivers were often exploited by the taxi owners. A change of policy was therefore made in 1966 to issue only non-transferable taxi licences to taxi drivers by balloting. The intention was to encourage individual ownership of taxis by taxi drivers themselves. This, however, was not a complete success due to the lack of financial capital of taxi drivers to purchase a vehicle and the costly credit facilities. This then degenerated into the "Ali Baba" ownership system whereby the registered owners were only the notional owners while the true ownership of the taxis was vested in some financiers. 4.30 p.m.

To overcome this problem of proxy ownership and to encourage true ownership of taxis by taxi drivers, the NTUC set up a cooperative known as the NTUC Comfort in 1970 to provide easy credit facilities to member taxi drivers to own their taxis. Since its establishment, all new taxi licences have been issued to NTUC Comfort except for 200 licences which were issued in 1978 to the Singapore Airport Bus Services Limited to operate a taxi fleet.

As at 31st December 1982, 6,746 or about 63% of the taxis in Singapore were under the Comfort flag. NTUC Comfort has indicated that it may not wish to expand its current fleet size beyond 7,000 taxis. My Ministry and NTUC Comfort have been in consultation and discussion to consider the possibility or desirability of allowing the transfer of taxi licences or issuing new taxi licences to individuals who have been driving taxis for a number of years and who have good track records. This subject is being discussed and under consideration. We hope a decision would be made.

But the important thing is this. As I mentioned earlier, we have to ensure that those who are issued with a taxi licence will help to run a good, clean and efficient taxi service. With a company, such as the SBS, SABS or with NTUC Comfort, there is management control to help discipline taxi drivers and taxi owners, to see that they operate the taxi service to serve members of the public. I do not think it is a matter of right that a taxi licence should be transferred to the son or to the uncle simply because he owns one. We have an obligation to the members of the public to ensure that they are transferred to the right people so that they can continue to provide a good service.

On the question of the power of the ROV to revoke or suspend vocational licences of taxi drivers, Sir, we have gone through this in detail last year, and I do not intend to go through it again. I think it is a sheer waste of time. The Registrar is empowered under section 63 (4) of the Road Traffic Act to suspend or revoke the vocational licence of taxi drivers if the drivers are found to be unfit or unable to continue driving taxis as a trade and providing the service to the satisfaction of the members of the public.

It is not true to say that the ROV has been harsh in his actions against taxi drivers and is not being fair. This would imply that the system of inquiry before actions are taken has not been thorough. The ROV has all along been very fair to taxi drivers when dealing with complaints from taxi commuters. Complaints are carefully examined before a decision is made to penalize the drivers. It has always been the ROV's practice to establish the truth of the complaint before taxi drivers are even called up to answer the allegations made against them. For instance, in 1982, the ROV received a total of 1,375 complaints but decided not to take action against almost 900 taxi drivers, arising out of these complaints. Only about 300 taxi vocational licences were suspended in that year and only 18 licences were revoked out of the 1,375 complaints. So the Member cannot say that the ROV has been unfair or that it has taken these complaints lightly and acted against taxi drivers without thorough investigation. As a matter of fact, the ROV received complaints from taxi drivers against commuters. In 1982, the ROV received 67 requests from taxi drivers for assistance to recover taxi fares from taxi commuters, and managed to recover fares totalling some $400 for 42 taxi drivers. Nine passengers who refused to pay these taxi fares were taken to court and one of them was convicted and fined.

With regard to the $2 area licensing fee paid by taxi drivers, this has been established since 1976 as part of the total area licensing scheme. This has helped to minimize traffic congestion in the Central Business District area. In as far as NTUC Comfort taxis are concerned, again it is a manifestation of management control and management organization that NTUC Comfort taxis are able to operate with this $2 area licensing fee without complaint. And if the yellow-top taxis can be similarly managed with proper advice and assistance, I think they should have no problem paying the $2 area licensing fee.

The Member for Kaki Bukit raised the subject of Service 228 a year ago. The position remains the same. This will form part of the total bus study that is being carried out. Hopefully, in the revised scheduling system, the problems that his con- stituents face could be remedied. One of the problems of Service 228 is that the demand at the present moment is not sufficient to justify a two-way loop. If SBS were to operate a two-way loop instead of a one-way loop as at present, then it may have to accept an eight-minute frequency instead of a four-minute frequency. At the present moment, it is four minutes for every service during the peak hours. SBS cannot justify introducing more buses to this particular service without having to suffer heavy losses in its operations. Maybe we should wait until we receive the recommendations from the Comprehensive Bus Study group.

Mr Jeyaretnam rose -

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, are you withdrawing your amendment?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Minister, if I have understood him, says it cannot be a matter of right that a father should be allowed to transfer his taxi licence to his son. May I ask why not, Mr Minister? After all, as I said, operating a taxi is a business like any other business. Is the Government imposing restrictions on the transfer of a business interest from the father to the son in other areas? Why should the yellow-top taxi operators be visited with this restriction? As I said, the impression that is gaining ground outside, if it has not already gained ground, is that the Government intends to drive all of them into the arms of the NTUC when they have no desire to be driven into the arms of the NTUC.

In the particular case that I mentioned about the father wanting to transfer his taxi to the son, I am told that the son holds a vocational driving licence. The Minister makes mention about the Registrar of Vehicles having to make sure that transfers are only effected to good and credit-worthy persons. Here the son has got a vocational driving licence. What is wrong with it? He has been accepted as a taxi driver, and he was told, "You can drive a taxi if you can deregister your father's yellow-top taxi, and go to NTUC. We will arrange a priority allocation for you". That is obviously intended to persuade him to go into the NTUC-fold.

The other thing that the Minister mentions is the discouragement of what he called the Ali Baba practice. I do not know how this practice is obtained as regards taxis in Singapore. But as I understand it, these yellow-top taxi owners or drivers get their finance from companies who operate hire-purchase facilities. Hire-purchase facilities are available to private car owners. What is the great objection to taxi drivers, who wish to run their own taxis, availing themselves of these facilities? In what way will the hire-purchase company impose any restrictions on the taxi owner so as to prevent him from rendering a service that would be acceptable to the Registrar of Vehicles? I myself cannot see anything objectionable, and I would like the Minister to say why he thinks that cannot be allowed. 4.45 p.m.

The other matter, Sir, is about the system of appeal that I was talking about. I did not expect the Minister not to display the faith he has in his Registrar of Vehicles. It would be surprising if he did not display his faith in his Registrar of Vehicles. But the question is not whether the Registrar can be expected to do his job well or not, fairly or unfairly. The question is whether it is right that it should be demonstrated to the taxi driver to his satisfaction. That is the principle at stake. If a taxi driver makes a complaint that his representation has not been properly considered, then he should be given an opportunity for his complaint to be heard by a tribunal and for the Registrar to appear before the tribunal to try and justify his decision. As I said, it is the application of the maxim that justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done. I am sure in most of the cases perhaps justice is done by the Registrar of Vehicles. But there might be the odd case where justice may not have been done. And even if there is just one case, then it will be a blot on the system. I would ask the Minister to state what is the real objection to having a tribunal to consider any appeals from the decision of the Registrar.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, I have already given Members a brief historical background leading to the present Government policy. A taxi licence is a permit to operate a taxi. It is not a personal property that you can transfer to anyone you like. I think this has to be made clear to the Member.

Mr Jeyaretnam: It is a business.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: It is not a business. This is a licence to operate, a permit to operate a taxi. Even in NTUC Comfort, the taxi owners are not allowed to transfer a taxi to anyone he likes. He has to return it to NTUC Comfort. I hope that makes it clear. I cannot see anything wrong in getting the son of this particular driver that he quoted to get a taxi or to own a taxi with the assistance of NTUC Comfort. What is wrong? Why do you want to force him to go to a private financial company?

Mr Jeyaretnam: He wants to do it.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Why? Is there any advantage?

Mr Jeyaretnam: That is for him to answer.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: What is wrong with getting these taxis through NTUC Comfort? I have already explained to the Member that -

Mr Jeyaretnam: I will tell you why a little later.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: - that NTUC Comfort was set up in 1970 to provide easy credit to facilitate members to own their own taxis. If you get credit from a private financial company and should you default, what happens to the taxi?

Mr Jeyaretnam: That is his concern.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: The finance company will repossess the taxi. It does not make sense. As I said, the taxi licence is a permit to operate a taxi. It is not a personal property and it cannot be transferred at will. Any person who wishes to own a taxi now will have to go through balloting conducted by NTUC Comfort. As I mentioned to him, we are considering other measures to help deserving taxi drivers who have good track record, who have clean and blameless records for the last five, ten years or so, may be considered for issue of individual taxi licences outside NTUC Comfort, but this is something that we will have to look into in detail.

In as far as the tribunal is concerned, I cannot see the advantage of having a tribunal. What is the difference as against the present system now? I have explained to the Member that any complaint made against a taxi driver is carefully and thoroughly investigated by the ROV. The taxi driver concerned will be interviewed to answer the allegation. He is given all the opportunities to present his version of the fact and to rebut the allegation made by the complainant. If there is any inconsistency, discrepancy or doubt over some of the details of the case, the taxi driver is given the benefit of the doubt. Further, if the taxi driver is dissatisfied with the decision of the ROV, he can appeal to the Minister against the Registrar's decision. So what else do you want? Why must there always be a tribunal? He wants a tribunal in every appeal. The Member also wants a tribunal in cases of appeals against wrongful dismissals. I am sure he wants a lot of tribunals in many areas.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, may I -

The Chairman: You want me to put this amendment to a vote?

Mr Jeyaretnam: No. May I ask the Minister to reply to one of the questions that I asked him, and that was, "What is the procedure that he follows in an appeal to him?" Does he hear any further representations of the taxi driver, or not? May I have an answer to that question?

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, when an appeal is made to the Minister, the files from the Registrar of Vehicles will be called up to the Ministry and the case will be first handled by the Deputy Secretary in the Ministry. He goes through the report and, if necessary, he-will ask that the appellant be invited for a further interview. If the officer is satisfied that all the necessary evidence has been recorded, it will be forwarded to the Permanent Secretary and the Minister for a final decision.

Mr Jeyaretnam: So he is not given a right to address you?

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: In what way? He can write to me personally.

Mr Jeyaretnam: The question is, is he told that he has a right to see you or address you and to make such representations as he wishes over the decision of the Registrar of Vehicles?

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, he is told that he has a right to appeal to the Minister.

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, are you going to withdraw your amendment, or are you going to put it to a vote?

Mr Jeyaretnam: I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $101,144,920 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates,

The sum of $465,502,100 for Head I ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I propose to take a break now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and shall take the Chair again at 5.25 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.55 p.m. until 5.25 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.25 p.m

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Head R -

Mr Goh Chee Wee (Boon Lay): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RA-01 Object Group 1100 of the Main Estimates*.

In recent years, we have enjoyed industrial peace and harmony and this has in no small way contributed towards enhancing the confidence of investors in Singapore and hence the continued growth of our industry and economy. The fruit of industrial peace and economic growth is being enjoyed by all Singaporeans through better job prospects, increasing wages and higher standard of living.

Sir, over the last two years, there has been much talk about the need to increase productivity and to improve human relations at work. The National Productivity Board has made remarkable efforts to spread the message of the importance of fostering good human relations. However, let us not be under any illusion that with all these campaigns, seminars and courses, all our managers in Singapore have been converted into angels who always have the interests of workers at heart. There are still many managers who just treat the workers as digits of production without any human feelings. If Members of this House think that this kind of managers are no more in existence after all these successful campaigns, then may I inform Members that my colleague at NTUC has just met one of this kind recently. When discussing the working conditions and company welfarism with the managing director of a company (obviously, my colleague was talking to the wrong person on such theme), the managing director said, "Well, my company has made a lot of profits over these years but what has this got to do with the workers? Why should I provide them with more than what I think they are legally entitled to under the law?".

Sir, I must say that the Ministry of Labour and the National Productivity Board still have a long way to go in converting our managers. Some are, of course, not convertible even if you send them through the most intensive management and human relations courses conducted by the best Japanese experts. Nevertheless, we must try. 5.30 p.m.

Now, what about the trade unions. According to the survey conducted by NPB last year, most of the managers felt that trade unions in Singapore are responsible. However, some have expressed their concern over the ability of our branch union leaders. Here I must point out that today most of our employers still insist that trade unions should only represent the junior staff. The supervisory staff, technicians, engineers, administrators and managers must be considered as management staff and have to be excluded from the union. So on the one hand, the employer insists that unions should only represent workers at the lower ranks. On the other hand, they cast their doubts on the ability of the union leaders. As a matter of fact, when a good union official is promoted to a higher grade, he or she will have to resign from the union. I must say that in Singapore, we have artificially created a very sharp demarcation between so-called management staff and non-management staff. I believe the distinction between management staff and non-management staff must be blurred. All workers and staff must identify themselves as members of the same family, sharing the same goals and objectives. To help remove the artificial and psychological barriers between the supervisors and workers and between the so-called senior staff and junior staff, I suggest that the employers should be enlightened enough to allow the supervisors and senior staff to join the same union which represents the junior employees. This will also help to encourage a common identity and team spirit among all employees and enable the union to draw its leadership from a larger and expanded pool of membership.

In this connection, I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister for Labour that section 16(3) of the Industrial Relations Act states that:

'No trade union of employees, the majority of whose membership consists of employees in non-managerial or non executive positions may seek recognition in respect of employees in managerial or executive positions.'

In other words, if the union is representing production or clerical workers, it will not be allowed to represent the senior staff. I believe this section of the Industrial Relations Act must be reviewed in the context of its intent and interpretation. As a matter of fact, if we wish to successfully promote the concept of house union, the leadership of which must necessarily come from within the enterprise and not from outside, then it is all the more important and pressing that we break away from the traditional thinking and be prepared to consider widening the scope of representation of trade unions.

Sir, we try to emulate Japan in the conduct of industrial relations. But we must understand the conditions and circumstances under which the Japanese system works. Let me give an example. In the survey conducted in Japan in 1981, it was found that as many as 74.1% of the companies have one or more board members who have had experience as union officials. 16.2% or nearly one in six of all the board members were previously trade union leaders. In Japan, practically all managerial positions are filled by people who have risen from the rank and file. University graduates and engineers have to work their way up from the production floor. In Singapore, the situation is different. Persons with good honours degree are automatically assumed good managers and are appointed as such. Perhaps at this stage of development, when qualified people are a scarce resource in Singapore, we cannot afford to put our engineers through the production floor. But that makes the great difference between the kind of confidence, trust and understanding that exist between the managers and workers in Japan and the type of relationship that prevails in Singapore. In formulating policies and strategies, the Ministry of Labour must take all these factors into account if we were to succeed in promoting the kind of industrial relations and co6peration that we desire in Singapore.

Dr Wan Soon Bee (West Coast): Sir, last year I mentioned that many of the provisions in our labour legislation were out-of-date and there was a need for us to review them. Sir, labour legislation must be progressive. They must keep up with time. The latest amendments have certainly helped us a lot in our relentless efforts to promote harmonious industrial relations and further help Singaporeans, and in particular the working class to improve their lots.

Sir, I am pleased to note that during the last 12 months many amendments have been made. Of particular importance were the amendments to the Trade Unions Act and the Trade Disputes Act. Sir, there had been a fair amount of apprehension and resistance to all these amendments from some unionists. This is because they do not fully understand the rationale behind the changes. We need to give more and better explanations. So I hope the Hon. Minister is not discouraged and will not be deterred from continuing to update and streamline the provisions just because of the apprehension of some of the unionists, the constructive criticisms of other unionists and the destructive criticisms of the Member for Anson. For the first group of people, we need to have more patience and take the trouble to explain to them the rationale in greater detail. For the second group of people, we must listen to their criticisms and suggestions carefully and give them due consideration. For the Member for Anson you may want to ignore him. He does not know what he is talking about and he is only interested in trying to get whatever political mileage out of his acts. On top of that, the Member for Anson is a confused man and he cannot understand logic. This has been said many times in this House by the Minister of State for National Development. The Minister for Trade and Industry, in his summing up of the Budget debate, said that the Member for Anson has said nothing new or relevant but a lot that is confusing. He described his speech as a hotch-potch of unrelated ideas. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Culture, after listening to the various remarks made by the Member for Anson during the debate on the Ministry of Culture commented that the Member for Anson displayed abysmal ignorance about many issues facing Singapore. Lastly, let me quote what the Prime Minister said about him last week:

'I think he ought to listen to me. I am telling him the history so that he will know how totally false his allegations are'.

Sir, now let us see some of the major issues that the Member for Anson has been fighting for in this House:

(1) He has been fighting for the non-citizens or foreigners. He has forgotten that our first duty as a Member of Parliament is to look after the interests of our citizens and workers. He wants the Government to liberalize the immigration policies to allow indiscriminately tens of thousands of foreigners to come to Singapore to compete with our workers for jobs and other amenities provided for our citizens. Does he want us to be in the same situation as that in Assam where thousands of people are killed? Is this in the interest of the working class and of Singaporeans as a whole?

Mr Jeyaretnam rose -

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, you can have your share when your turn comes.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, all that I want to say is that the hon. Member is being carried away to misquote me completely, Is that allowed? He is carried away.

Dr Wan Soon Bee: May I continue, Sir?

The Chairman: Do not be carried away, Dr Wan?

Dr Wan Soon Bee: It is all related to the workers and I have to explain to the Minister so that he is not influenced.

The Chairman: But do not be carried away.

Dr Wan Soon Bee: No, Sir, I would not be carried away.

(2) He wants the Government to give back the payroll tax to the employers instead of letting the Government use it for the benefits of our people.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I said "for the workers."

Dr Wan Soon Bee: The majority of those who will be benefiting is the working class. Is this also in the interest of the workers?

(3) He wants the Government to pay the landowners the full market value for the land acquired for public interest. If this is done, Government projects such as HDB flats will be more costly and the working class will have to pay more. Is this also done in the interest of the workers?

The Member for Anson would like to portray himself to be the champion of the workers. But basing on what he has done, I have no doubt that he does not care a hoot about our workers. I reckon his real motives are his own interests, his party's interests and the interests of the foreigners. I think it is obvious that he is not interested in the well-being of Singaporeans and, least of all, for the Singapore workers.

Mr Chairman, Sir, many Ministers have been kind enough to advise him not to speak on topics which he is not familiar with. But he is stubborn and he continues to get involved in topics which he knows absolutely nothing about. He continues to criticize NTUC and the Singapore Labour movement. What does he know about the Labour movement? He does not even know that the main objective of the Labour movement is to help the working class to improve their standard of living and thus enabling them to enjoy a better quality of life. For him, the union is an end in itself and the main objective is to fight the Government and the employers. Does he encourage his own employees, if he has any, to fight him? Is what he is advocating in the best interest of the companies and the employees?

As a lawyer and having contacts with the outside world, he should know what is happening in many of the Western countries and the Third world countries. There is continuous confrontation between the union, the government and the employers. And what happens? The standard of living of the working class is declining and millions of people are out of jobs in those countries. Just a few days ago the new Prime Minister of Australia, Mr Hawke, who was a prominent union leader for many years, has called for cooperation between union, government and employers. Why is he not calling for confrontation? Why? This is food for thought for the Member for Anson and other like-minded people. If the Member for Anson continues to advocate confrontation between union,government and employers, is he not also irresponsible?

Sir, now let me turn to the requests I made last year. They are (1) sick leave benefit should be provided to any employee as soon as he is confirmed in his job; (2) annual leave entitlement should be reviewed to make it more equitable and in line with our current efforts to promote loyalty, company welfarism and good employer-employee relations.

Sir, the Hon. Minister in his reply said, and I quote:

'The Member for West Coast touched on a similar vein within the Employment Act, about annual leave benefits. I think his proposal merits consideration.'

With regard to the sick leave benefit, he said and I quote:

'On the point raised by the Member for West Coast on sick leave, perhaps it is also opportune at this time to ask the officials to look into this as well while we are reviewing the whole series of provisions in the Employment Act to bring it up to-date.'

Sir, I am anxious to know what has been done so far. I hope the Hon. Minister can give me a definite answer this year.

Sir, let me take this opportunity to make two more suggestions, and I think these two issues are important for our workers, especially for the lower income group.

(1) CPF contribution by the employee

Sir, CPF is an extremely good scheme. It has served us well. It caters for old age and it has enabled the majority of our working class to own flats which workers in even the most developed countries cannot dream of. But, Sir, the income ceiling of $200 for which the employees need not contribute to CPF was fixed in 1968. And if you were to take inflation between 1968 and 1982 into consideration, the $200 in 1968 would be compounded to $432.44 in 1982. Therefore, I am suggesting that the Hon. Minister consider seriously raising this $200 income ceiling to $400. I am fully aware of the possible consequences of this change. Sir, I am making this suggestion because I believe some people are finding it difficult to cope with the cost of living if he is the sole bread-winner and if he earns below $400.

(2) Retrenchment Benefit

In accordance with section 44 of the Employment Act, an employee will only be entitled to retrenchment benefit after he has served his company for three years or more. This provision should be reviewed in the light of our current efforts to encourage companies to upgrade their operations. Very often, employers prefer to retrench surplus workers as a result of mechanization, automation or reorganization. When a retrenchment exercise is carried out, those who have served their companies for less than three years will be denied retrenchment benefits through no fault of theirs, and this would affect their livelihood adversely. The extension of retrenchment benefit entitlement in the Employment Act to workers with less than three years' service, therefore, would not only help to alleviate their hardship but would also serve as a deterrent to employers who hastily retrench workers instead of deploying or retraining them.

The Chairman: Dr Wan, your time is up. 5.45 p.m.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, let me take the points mentioned by the Member for Boon Lay that supervisors, foremen and engineers in a company should be allowed to join unions in order that there can be good leadership in the union and the union will then thrive better. Sir, management in companies have to assess workers. They also need to represent the shareholders' interest in any negotiations with the employees. In some cases, the supervisors, line engineers and even foremen, do perform the functions of management. In so far as the Employment Act and the Trade Unions Act are concerned, on the question whether supervisors and foremen are allowed to join unions or not, the Acts are silent. There is nothing to prevent the foremen and supervisors from joining a union. But, as I have said, it depends on the functions of this class of workers. If they do perform management functions, then I can understand the objections of the management to allow this class of workers to join a union. There will be a conflict of interest if the staff performing management functions were allowed to join the same union as their bargainable employees.

The success of a union does not have to depend upon the participation of the management staff. There already exist house unions in Singapore which are functioning very well without participation by the management staff. The strength of a house union or any union does not depend upon the qualifications or status of its leadership. Rather it depends more upon an enlightened leadership which has a full grasp of management objectives and problems and leads workers to cooperate with the management for their own long-term welfare. We must not forget that the formation of house unions is not just to build up capable leadership in these unions but rather ultimately to improve the lot of workers. Instead of management assuming a leadership role in unions, the interactions and harmony between management and workers can also be effected by the unions and management taking part in joint labour/management committees. This would allow the management to play an active role in promoting workers' welfare and good labour relations without a conflict of interest.

I am fully aware of some of the problems raised by the Member for West Coast regarding the CPF contributions made by employees, but to raise the $200 floor salary to $400 a month is something that needs to be carefully studied. The Ministry has already requested the CPF Board to look into this proposal since this matter was raised sometime last year. Unfortunately, they have not come up with a decision at this stage. I would urge the Member for West Coast to be patient for a little bit longer.

In so far as the other issues raised by him last year on the sick leave benefits and annual leave entitlement to employees are concerned, these are being taken into account in our review of the Employment Act which will be submitted to this House for consideration in the near future. It is perhaps premature at this stage for me to go into the details.

Regarding his point on retrenchment benefits where workers are only entitled to them after they have worked in the company for at least three years, this is the minimum requirement as provided for in the Employment Act. We know that many employers do pay retrenchment benefits to workers who work less than three years. It is very difficult to draw a line which can satisfy everybody, whether it should be two years, one year or even six months. So far, the Ministry is satisfied with these provisions in the legislation, and we do not see at this stage the need to amend these particular provisions. We would not want to amend them in such a way that would encourage the workers to job-hop, working for one or two years in an establishment and then hop to another establishment under the belief that they will be entitled to retrenchment benefits.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): On a point of clarification, Sir. I am sorry to interrupt, but I wish to draw the Minister's attention that in the case of employees who leave their job on their own accord, they are not entitled to any retrenchment benefits at all. So it is not a question of job-hopping. They would not get any benefit. It is in the case of a genuine redundancy that we ask for the abolition of the three requirements. Before the introduction of this amendment, it has been operating quite satisfactorily.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, I am fully aware of that. The question of job-hopping arises only when an employee or a worker hops from job to job simply because of an offer of a higher salary regardless of whether or not the company is in a financially stable situation. Of course, if this is his first job and he is retrenched as a result of the world recession, or as a result of poor business, then, of course, he will suffer in this case because he has worked for less than three years. As I have said, from the records, most of the companies do pay their employees retrenchment benefits although they do not work the full three-year period except those who were with the company for less than a year or two. But in practice there are very few companies employing a large number of workers just before the companies close shop.

Dr Wan Soon Bee: Sir, may I speak on a point of clarification? I do agree that there may be people who job-hop because of a higher salary. But I think the job security out-weighs the retrenchment benefits.

I just want to suggest this. The Minister has said that it is difficult to draw the line. I think it is not that difficult. I would suggest that all confirmed employees be paid retrenchment benefits. People do not go to a company because of the retrenchment benefits. They think the company is going to offer them better prospects and better security. Unfortunately, the company appears to be stable but they are not, and these people have to suffer for that.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: As I have mentioned, Sir, it is unlikely that a company which is on the verge of folding up will engage or recruit a large number of workers. In most cases, as I have said, in a normal situation where the company has to fold up, they do pay retrenchment benefits to the workers who have not worked the full three-year period.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, I just wish to seek clarification from the Minister. When I suggested the widening of the scope of representation in the trade unions, it is not just to build up a strong union leadership. In fact, even under the present set-up we do have good and capable leaders. But I think the more important aspect is the sense of common identity that must be developed. We should try to blur the distinction between the so-called management staff and non-management staff. In fact, all the workers are the employees of the company. So I do not see any reason why we should want to promote this type of attitude that supervisors should never be included in a trade union which represents the workers. That is an important aspect of my suggestion.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, if the management staff, i.e. the managers and executives were allowed to join the same union, when it comes to bargaining, with whom do they bargain? They have to bargain with the management. The labour legislation allows the managers and executives to form their own union as distinct from the other group because the management staff do have a different function. They have the function of assessing workers' performance and so on. They also have to look after the interests of shareholders. When it comes to bargaining, the unions will have to bargain with the management. If the management staff, the managers and the executives, join the union as well, then they will have no one to bargain with. As I have mentioned earlier in the reply, one way to overcome this is to promote joint labour/ management committees to get the managers, workers and supervisors together, to meet often to discuss their problems, so that they will continue to work together within the same establishment as harmoniously as possible.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: I thank the Minister for his reply. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong (Moulmein): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RA-01 of the Main Estimates.*

Sir, there have been some reports in the press on company welfarism through the employers' contribution scheme. As I understand it, the scheme will allow employers to retain a certain percentage of CPF contributions to provide more and better welfare benefits for their employees. It has been more than 18 months since the scheme was first mooted, and I am wondering if any head-way has been made with the scheme. Whilst I agree with the objective !of the scheme, which is to promote company loyalty and identification, may I take this opportunity to make the following observations? 6.00 p.m.

First, will employers be able to convince their employees of the soundness and attractiveness of the scheme? Secondly, will employers and their employees be given a choice as to whether they want to continue with CPF or to join the company's Cowec scheme? Thirdly, would it not be safer to leave the money with the CPF to earn the 6.5% interest? Can the Minister for Labour assure this House that there are sufficient safeguards to the scheme to protect the money?

Finally, will the workers' affordability for HDB housing be affected by this move? Can the Minister for Labour enlighten this House on the scheme and its various implications, please?

Mr Lim Boon Heng (Kebun Baru): Mr Speaker, Sir, over the years, many constructive suggestions have been put forward by Members of Parliament sitting on this side of the House, i.e. PAP Members of Parliament. Invariably, the Hon. Ministers on the other side have either turned down the suggestions or merely taken note of them. Very often, we hear nothing more of the subject until it is once again raised in this House by my persistent colleagues. Some of us have seen their persistence paid off. For example, the hon. Member for Ayer Rajah recently obtained the agreement of the Hon. Minister of Defence and Second Minister for Health, to agree to an upward review of the allowance paid to National Servicemen during the sitting on 4th March 1983, after several Members had failed in the past. The moral to be learnt is that if we believe strongly in a particular cause, we must have the conviction to persist.

Members of this House may have forgotten that on 22nd March last year, the hon. Member for Ayer Rajah again put up a case for CPF savings to be used on medical grounds, particularly for major surgical operations or prolonged specialized medical treatment. At that time, the Hon. Minister for Communications and Minister for Labour typically and predictably turned down the suggestion. However, this suggestion of using CPF savings for medical care apparently got through to the highest levels, and no less than the Prime Minister himself announced in August last year that Medisave would be funded by CPF contributions.

Other suggestions have been put forward but without the same success. Since persistence pays, I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to these suggestions again.

Sir, other hon. Members have eloquently argued the case for CPF savings to be used for education. Education is a form of investment - an investment in human resources. Could the Minister inform this House whether the CPF Board has considered the following suggestions:

(a) that parents be allowed to use their CPF savings to finance the education of their children, and

(b) that workers be allowed to use their CPF savings to upgrade themselves, and meet family financial commitments while they undergo full-time training courses, and if the CPF Board has considered these suggestions, has it come to a decision?

Sir, I need not repeat the arguments of those Members who spoke strongly for these proposals, since they are fully recorded in the proceedings of this House. However, let me add that since skills upgrading is so essential to the success of our economic restructuring, we must make it possible for those workers who wish to pursue higher studies to do so now.

While the Minister is considering these suggestions once again, let me put to him another case. It is not a new proposal but merely an appeal to vary the rules pertaining to the use of CPF savings for the purchase of property.

Sir, presently a person who buys an HDB flat directly from an existing owner can use his CPF savings to pay for the purchase. The amount that he can use, however, is limited by the current posted selling price of the HDB for the type of flat in question, and not by the freely negotiated market price. Sir, we all know that the prevailing free market price is always more than the HDB's selling price, very often more than double. This is a clear demonstration that HDB flats are good value for money, and that the HDB sells its flats to the public at subsidized rates.

The purchaser of an HDB flat on the free market, therefore, faces a heavy financial obstacle. He has to raise the finance for the balance above the HDB's posted price from other sources. No bank or financial institution is prepared to accept a second mortgage for the amount above the HDB's posted price. Unless the purchaser has other financial resources, he will not be able to purchase directly from existing HDB owners.

Sir, recently one of my constituents who was staying with his parents, had the rare opportunity of buying the adjacent flat. If he buys over the flat, he could continue to live close to his parents, in fact, next door. However, he could not raise the extra finance. He appealed to the CPF Board, first directly, then through me, to be permitted to finance the purchase through his CPF savings. The CPF Board, however, would not flex the rules.

The reason for turning down this request, I understand, is that CPF savings are meant to provide for old age, and the CPF Board has, therefore, a social responsibility to ensure that CPF savings are protected. The CPF member may not be able to make full restitution to the CPF should HDB, for example, repossess the flat for infringement of rules since the HDB would use the value of the flat at the posted price prevailing at time of sale to determine the compensation payable to the owner.

Sir, while this is technically correct, it is not convincing. Presently, those who buy private property can use their CPF savings up to 80% of the assessed market value of the property. CPF has first claim if the property is sold. What would happen if the market value of the private property drops at the time the owner sells? How would CPF recover the funds used? Take, for example, those who may have purchased private condominiums with CPF funds. It has been seen that prices of condominiums have come down and in future may even go down further. If an owner has to sell when the price drops, the CPF may not be able to recover fully the funds used,

Evidently, there are certain risks when one buys property. Since CPF funds are the statutory savings of members, then when we permit them to use their CPF savings to buy property, we must allow them to assume those risks which may mean a reduction in the member's CPF savings.

So in the case of a person buying an HDB flat directly from an existing owner, we should permit the purchaser to finance it with his CPF savings up to 80% of the assessed free market value of the flat, and not limit it to HDB's subsidized price.

Sir, I hope the Minister will reconsider such cases favourably. A re-appeal has been submitted to the Ministry. I strongly feel that this request should be granted. To grant this request would be completely in line with our social policy of preserving the family as the basic building block of our society.

Dr Ow Chin Hock (Leng Kee): Mr Speaker, Sir, I feel that there should be an overall policy on wages, productivity, skills development and immigrant workers. All these economic variables which I have just mentioned are inter-related. Let me illustrate by giving two examples. These examples also serve to underline the importance of having a well-coordinated economic policy on wages, productivity, prices and so on. First example. Suppose wages increase at a faster rate than the rate of productivity increase, it will generate what is called cost-push inflation. This inflation will, in turn, reduce the real wages of workers and impede the competitiveness of our export goods. Trade union officers therefore may demand higher money wages in order to compensate for the decline in real wages and this will lead to second round, third round and so on of wage-cost inflation.

Second example. When we increase the supply of labour by allowing more immigrant workers to come in, this will undermine our efforts in improving productivity. This inflow of immigrant workers will also tend to depress wages which would otherwise be received by our workers. Low wages would discourage workers to improve productivity.

Let me turn to the work permit policy. The Prime Minister in his 1982 New Year Message announced that "workers from non-traditional sources will leave by the end of 1984 and recruitment of these NTS workers will stop in 1982." I support this policy because it is consistent with our efforts in increasing productivity. By cutting out the cheapest source of labour supply, employers will be forced to invest in automation, computerization, mechanization and training of their workers. However, one year later, the Ministry of Labour found it necessary to compromise on this policy. On 31st December 1982, the Ministry's statement announced that the repatriation of NTS workers can be extended by one to two years beyond 1984 provided that employers take definite measures to upgrade their operations. By 1982, the Ministry of Labour should have known that the economy was on the decline. In fact, the decline began in mid-1981. Recession is the best time for us to repatriate the NTS workers and unskilled foreign workers. I regret that the Ministry of Labour has to give this concession. I would like to know from the Minister that when our economy picks up again in 1984 and when our labour market becomes tight again, will the Ministry compromise once more by allowing more foreign workers, including NTS workers, to come in? I would appreciate it if the Minister could give a statement on this.

On wages policy, the National Wages Council was set up in 1972. The main objective is to "secure an orderly and steady increase in wages as part of the overall policy to maintain and consolidate the higher rate of economic advance in recent years." This statement was made by the NWC Chairman to the Prime Minister on 24th April 1972. So far, the NWC has functioned well and ensures an orderly wage increase as well as stability in our labour market. However, it seems that there is a re-thinking on the role of the NWC. It was felt that wages should be determined by market forces, rather than institutionalized at the economy level. Theoretically, there are advantages and benefits for wages to be determined by demand and supply conditions. However, on the other hand, one must realize that the labour market does not behave like the stock exchange or any commodity market. There are many reasons. It is partly because of the institutional factors and time lag in wage-price adjustment and partly because employers tend to regard CPF, Skills Development Fund contributions and Payroll Tax as part of labour cost. Hence, changes in wages do not necessarily reflect changes in demand and supply conditions in labour market. Secondly, one must also realize that free collective bargaining between unions and employers without proper guideline and supervision may undermine the stability of labour market and harmony of industrial relations in the long run. I am concerned that some unscrupulous employers may take the opportunities to exploit our workers, while on the other hand, more aggressive union branch officials may try to prove to their fellow workers and demand for unrealistically higher wages regardless of the prevailing economic conditions. 6.15 p.m.

I feel that NWC must continue to recommend wage increase as a general guide but the recommendations must be in the form of wage range and not a single wage increase. This, in fact, was implemented in 1981. Wage negotiations then can be conducted at business firms or company levels within the recommended wage range. I do not see the necessity of wage negotiation to be conducted at an industrial or sectoral level. There is no reason why a clerk in a more profitable industry should receive higher wages than her counterpart in a less profitable industry. At a company's or firm's level, wage increase should be linked with productivity increase, and productivity should be measured, as I have mentioned before, in terms of value-added per man hour (and not in terms of output per worker) and productivity must be adjusted by the changes in the company's capital-labour ratio. In this way, not only workers will get their fair share of productivity gains but also the average cost per unit and hence the product price will not be increased to impede our competitiveness and to cause inflation.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, with the continuing recession, retrenchment is expected to rise in the coming months. The present guidelines formulated by the Ministry of Labour are inadequate to deter some employers from retrenching employees, who have put in long years of loyal and faithful service, not as a last resort but as an expedient way to reduce wage cost and for other reasons. How are we to inculcate company loyalty on the one hand and allow some employers to blatantly get rid of long serving employees?

The Ministry should take steps to ensure that any retrenchment exercise undertaken by employers is bona fide and that they have explored other avenues of redeployment of staff. In the event a retrenchment is indeed necessary, an employer should be required to give his employees, who are to be retrenched, at least two months' clear notice. Payment in lieu of notice will only be allowed with the express consent of the employees concerned. The practice of giving pay in lieu of notice is a reflection on the callous attitude of some employers. Imagine the feeling of a loyal and faithful worker on the last day of the month, upon receiving his salary, being told in a notice that his services will not be required from the following day. Such shock treatment is undesirable in the promotion of company loyalty. Experiences of this nature tend to demoralize the rest of the workforce. This induces those workers who are not affected to take the view that it does not pay to be loyal and faithful to one's employers.

Sir, let me explain briefly how retrenchment could occur. It could be due to (1) economic recession; (2) loss of markets; and (3) loss of agency rights. Such factors do not happen overnight. Therefore, there is no valid reason why employers should give short periods of notice. Some employers resort to retrenchment as a short-term solution to overcome their adverse trading conditions.

I would like to cite two examples. One, a firm of stock brokers recently retrenched six employees on the ground of computerization and poor trading conditions. Although the Stock Exchange of Singapore had announced two years ago the introduction of computerization amongst its member firms, this company had not bothered to prepare the employees for such eventualities. Although affected employees can be redeployed to other sections of the company, this company showed reluctance to do so. The second example is this. A major trading house had in previous years resorted to a series of retrenchment exercises due to adverse trading conditions. A few days ago the same trading company announced that they had made an exceptional profit of millions of dollars. The irony of it is that not a cent of this exceptional profit was shared among its loyal and faithful employees. All this profit goes to the shareholders as additional dividend. Sir, I am not disputing the rights of any company or employer to distribute its profits. What I am advocating is a sharing of the cake all round. The workers who are members of my union are thoroughly disillusioned, and I must admit it would be extremely difficult to inculcate company loyalty amongst them.

Sir, the purpose of my amendment is to draw attention to abuses by certain employers which in some cases can be difficult to prove.

Sir, the last point I would like to raise is whether the Ministry would recommend to the Ministry of Finance the possibility of allowing retrenched workers to be given grants from the Skills Development Fund for the purpose of acquiring new skills.

Mr Bernard Chen (Clementi): Sir, the Member for Leng Kee has touched on the need for the National Wages Council to continue to give guidelines on wage increases. I would just like to add a few of my own comments.

Sir, the tripartite relationship of the NWC making up of Government, employers and unions has resulted, since 1972, in a series of orderly wage increases which took into account prevailing economic circum- stances as well as the need for workers to have sufficient wage increases, having taken into account rising income needs and inflation.

Last year the Government announced that beginning this year the NWC would take on a new perspective, with the Government component of the NWC withdrawing from the negotiating process, leaving it to employers and unions. Sir, as in all things, nobody is prepared to set a precedent. Employers who are asked to initiate negotiation of wage increases are reluctant to commit themselves to setting levels which other companies have to follow. On the other hand, unions representing employees are also afraid of not answering to the aspirations of the workers in asking for a sufficiently high wage increase. The likely result is that employers will aim for the lowest increase possible while the unions will strive for the maximum. This will result in prolonged negotiations in trying to arrive at a meeting of minds. Considerable time will be wasted and there may be fraying of nerves and misunderstandings which will not do well for the industrial relations between company and union. In the past such negotiation processes have been lubricated by Government's advice and NWC deliberations on the need and the level of wage increase that will satisfy workers and yet meet with the reality of the circumstances prevailing.

Sir, I would like to know whether, in fact, the Ministry has been monitoring this new style of NWC, or whether, in fact, any employers have been asked or have themselves initiated negotiations with the unions for workers in their companies. If so, has any teething problem been encountered by either the companies or the unions? Further, in the light of the difficult year ahead, is it timely for both employers and unions to spend a lot of time trying to arrive at an equitable wage level instead of devoting the time to improving their business as well as to various productivity targets that have been set for the workers?

Sir, sometimes it may be well said that we leave everything to market forces, but when the market is not functioning properly, with the ups and downs, it is advisable to have at least an invisible hand to guide us all along.

Dr Augustine Tan: Sir, I think the Member for Leng Kee is quite right in suspecting that there is a link between low productivity performance and immigrant work permit holders. One can ask quite a number of questions in this regard. First, from the more so-called traditional sources, what kind of stability or instability has been experienced by employers? In other words, after training these foreign workers in whatever skills or experience imparted to them, on the average how long do these workers stay with these companies?

Sir, I think this is a matter of some concern to us because if we have an unstable situation, a high turnover, whereby foreign workers are trained in Singapore and then go back to their home country to take up better job offers after having gained the new skills, then we are really serving as a training ground and getting very poor quality labour here in return. I have noticed that the quality of the construction here is really appalling, no matter which building that we happen to go into, whether it is the plumbing, or the tiles laid, or the smoothness of the walls and the ceilings, and so on. Could something be done about this? Perhaps we should not allow these foreign workers to start working at once without testing their skills, thus making sure that they have the requisite quality of workmanship that we desire. I cannot think of the appalling damage that can be done to the reputation of Singapore if these workers with a couldn't-care-less attitude were to work in our factories. They are here today; they are gone tomorrow; as a result you have a lot of defective parts. You have products that break down after a short time, and that will really damage the reputation of Singapore abroad unless we are thinking of very short-term profit-taking and short-term markets, which I hope we are not, but we are trying to build up a long-term reputation for Singapore.

Coming next to the question of the CPF. I keep hearing all kinds of suggestions not only from Members in this House but also from the man-in-the-street, in newspaper forums, advising the Minister on what additional uses CPF could be put to. I wonder whether anybody has sat down to do some basic calculations. 6.30 p.m.

Firstly, how many workers in Singapore are not covered at all by CPF? What will happen to these workers when they retire? Who is going to be responsible for them? For those who are covered by CPF, what would be their average balances by the time they do retire? They are now taking out substantial amounts for the purchase of houses and, at the rate the prices of housing are escalating, I can imagine that big chunks of CPF would have been withdrawn by the time the worker retires? Who will be responsible for people when they reach retirement age with very low CPF balances? Surely something has to be done on this score?

I am especially concerned about this problem, Sir, because we have been encouraging people to have two-child families. When you have seven or eight children, by the time you retire these children are grown up. They may not be earning very much, but if each one were to give you $20-$30 at least you can live on their contributions. But when you have two children, what can they give you if they are not well educated or highly educated and do not earn very much? If they give you $20-$30 each, you will starve. And worse still, Sir, if you have eight children and half of them are not filial, you still have another four to depend upon. But now you have two children and if 50% are not filial, you are left with one. If both of them are not filial, you are left with none. I am just wondering whether CPF or the Ministry has done any projection at all to look at the possible scenario, because I would pity whoever is in the Ministry of Social Affairs at that time.

Mr S. Chandra Das: Sir, may I speak on this subject now instead of moving my amendment No. (10)* since the subject of non-traditional source workers has already been touched?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr S. Chandra Das: Sir, of late, we have

heard much about phasing out of work permit holders, especially from the non-traditional sources. Whilst I am in agreement with this policy, I am a little concerned about the swiftness of change, I have no quarrels with the Member for Leng Kee on this subject. I am only questioning basically the number of times this policy has been changed. I would like to ask the Hon. Minister for Labour how this quick about-turn will affect our local industries. How this will affect output and productivity? Should we not give them some special consideration so that we give them some time to adjust? Maybe as an after-thought we should have in the initial stages only encouraged workers from the traditional sources in the first place.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe (Geylang Serai): Sir, can I speak on Amendment No. (3)* now? It is on the same point which was taken up by the Members for Leng Kee and Clementi.

The Chairman: On foreign workers?

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: No. On the new-style collective bargaining.

The Chairman: All right.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, we have enjoyed an atmosphere of industrial peace and harmony for many years now. There has not been a single strike in Singapore since 1978. However, we must not take this peaceful and harmonious industrial scene for granted. The Ministry of Labour must by vigilant and work in cooperation with the NTUC and the employers' organizations to ensure that we will always continue to have industrial peace and harmony. We will have to ensure that the new-style NWC direct bargaining when introduced will not disrupt the peaceful industrial relations climate.

I would like now to make some suggestions for the Minister's consideration when this new-style bargaining is introduced. The Ministry of Labour must have adequate resources to handle disputes which may arise expeditiously. Any delay in handling of disputes can create an atmosphere of distrust which will have an adverse effect on the industrial relations climate. The Ministry must be prepared to take any unreasonable party to task quickly and firmly and, in order that direct bargaining will be smooth and effective, the employers must be prepared to provide the unions with adequate and honest information on the performance of their companies. They must not withhold information and use delay tactics to frustrate the union's negotiating team.

The Ministry of Labour should be prepared to take management to task if they do not cooperate with the unions to provide information which is relevant to the bargaining exercise. We must not allow the negotiations to deteriorate to such an extent that there is mistrust and ill-feeling. The damage suffered may be permanent. I hope the Minister will consider this.

The Chairman: Would you like to speak on the same subhead, Dr Wan?

Dr Wan Soon Bee: I am not speaking, Sir.

The Chairman: On Amendment No. (10), would Encik Saidi like to speak now?

Encik Saidi Haji Shariff: I am not speaking, Sir.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, before I ask my Minister of State to deal with the subject of the company welfare scheme raised by the Member for Moulmein, I will deal with the other subjects first.

The Member for Kebun Baru has again raised this issue about allowing CPF savings to be used for the education of members themselves and their children. He asked whether the CPF Board has considered this suggestion. I only wish to tell him that the CPF Board is considering his suggestion. This is being publicly discussed on a number of occasions. There is no basic objection to allowing members to withdraw their CPF savings for their personal education and for upgrading themselves in skills and so on. The only question is how do we ensure that they will make full use of the savings to really upgrade themselves and to treat this seriously. We would like to believe that they will, and if we can work out a scheme or if we can be assured that this will be the case, i.e. they will really benefit from the education and upgrade themselves in skills and subsequently benefit them financially, then there is no basic objection. This is being looked into.

In the other case, that is, to allow the member to withdraw his savings for his children's education, that would be a bit more complicated because there is the question of setting up the criteria. Where do you draw the line? How do you approve the scheme to enable his children to withdraw his savings for further education? Will he make the grade and will he look after the parents after he has made the grade? Anyway, these issues, as I said, are being looked into by the CPF Board.

I think this is not the first time that the Member has made the suggestion in the House to vary the CPF rules to help members to purchase HDB flats. He mentioned about the differences between the market price and HDB's posted price. Perhaps I would just explain a little bit on this subject because HDB flats are quite different from private flats in the open market.

The CPF, in determining the amount of CPF savings to be taken out by any member for the purchase of properties, whether private properties or HDB flats, takes into account the security of the property, that is, what the properties can fetch in the market should the property be resold. In the case of a resale of an HDB flat, the HDB's controlled posted price is in a way a valuation of the flat as assessed by HDB. Such a resale flat is subject to numerous terms and conditions which make the flat not freely marketable. One of these conditions is that should a new purchaser sell his flat within five years of purchase, then he would be required to sell it back to HDB at the HDB's controlled posted price, not the market price. Therefore, the Board allows CPF members to withdraw only up to 80% of the controlled posted price of resale HDB flats. Of course, this ruling does cause some hardship to some members who are genuinely interested in buying resale flats. I myself have a number of constituents facing the same problem.

CPF is aware of this problem and is intending - I am not sure they have already intended - to initiate discussion with the HDB to discuss further ways to assist the purchaser of resale HDB flats, and perhaps hopefully in the near future we will be able to let the Member know whether the withdrawal of up to 80% of the controlled posted price will be varied.

The Member for Leng Kee, the Member for Clementi and the Member for Geylang Serai touched on the new-style NWC and have expressed their concern. Sir, the National Wages Council was started in 1972. At that time there was a rapid rate of economic growth with full employment. The wage structure was disorderly with wage disparity between large and small firms. Amongst skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled workers, there were disparities in their wages and with many different incentive payments. It was felt that future wage patterns were unclear and this would deter investors.

The NWC was set up to develop a rational and coherent wage system geared towards long-term economic growth and higher productivity. It regulated wage structure and not merely wage increases. The NWC has operated for 10 years. Certain disadvantages have surfaced. Gradually employers and employees have assumed NWC guidelines to be mandatory. This has resulted in workers regarding the Government as the benefactor of their wage increase instead of their employers who are really paying for their benefits. This misconception must be cor- rected if we were to succeed in promoting the workers' loyalty to their company.

The new-style NWC is intended to get employers and trade unions to enter into direct wage negotiations with each other. Initially, the Government will continue as a member of the tripartite council but will adopt a low profile and leave it to the employers and trade unions to negotiate directly for broad guidelines on wage increase. The Government will, however, play an advisory role and assist in NWC discussions by providing the necessary data on economic performance, investments in the pipeline, competitive positions of local industries, etc. 6.45 p.m.

Eventually over the years, the NWC will comprise only the trade union and employer organizations working out broad guidelines together. These guidelines will serve as a basis for collective bargaining at the company level between the employer and the industrial or enterprise union. At the same time, some employers and unions will be encouraged to undertake sectoral bargaining outside the NWC and before the NWC announces its guidelines. Some of the suitable sectors considered were the banking, electronics, ship-building, ship-repairing and petrol industries. These export-oriented industries and banks have to compete internationally. Therefore, they cannot give wage increases which price themselves out of the international market. The guidelines arrived at by the sectoral bargaining would serve as signals of market trends to the NWC.

The new-style NWC also allows greater flexibility in collective wage bargaining through the introduction of separate guidelines for different sectors of the economy, taking into account differences in skill and economic performances of each industry. This is a more realistic approach. Direct wage negotiations facilitate the mobilization of our scarce labour resources for the growth industry which offers higher wages. Under the new-style NWC, the employers and workers would interact and consult with each other more closely and frequently. Both parties would then be better able to appreciate each other's problems and well-being. In the process, management would be able to instil a sense of company loyalty in the workers and to relate wage increases to productivity.

However, the progress of the new-style NWC so far has not been encouraging. Both employers and trade unions are reluctant to settle wage increases before the NWC. This is quite understandable. The employers will not feel happy if they agree to a quantum which turns out to be higher than that eventually recommended by the NWC. The foreign-owned companies will be hard put or will be put in an awkward position to justify to their headquarters overseas why they had granted higher increases. On the other hand, the unions fear that if they were to agree on a quantum which is lower than that eventually recommended by the NWC, they will be criticized by their members. This is the first of the new-style NWC. We should perhaps not expect too much change from the old-style NWC. It is not intended to have an abrupt change anyway.

The Member for Clementi is quite concerned whether or not it is timely to expect employers to negotiate directly with the workers. But the recession in recent years, last year and this year, has eased the labour market and the economic performance of many companies has been at the lowest for many years. Against such a setting, the workers and employers over these few years have become more-aware than at any time before that their mutual fortunes are closely linked. We think that the employers and employees will now negotiate wage increases directly more seriously and they are expected to interact more closely and adopt a hard-headed approach to ensure mutual benefit.

The Member for Geylang Serai has expressed his concern that the sudden change to the new-style NWC may create a sudden increase in disputes in wage negotiations, and he questioned whether the Ministry of Labour has the necessary resources to handle these disputes. As I have mentioned earlier, the change will not be too sudden. The Ministry is aware that there could be an increase in disputes between unions and management arising out of direct wage negotiations and we have already taken the necessary steps to prepare ourselves, together with the Industrial Arbitration Court, for a situation like this. But we do not expect the trade disputes to increase by a large number.

The Member for Leng Kee, the Member for Whampoa, and the Member for Chong Boon, touched on the problems of non-traditional source (NTS) workers. I would like to assure the Member for Leng Kee that there is no question of Government reversing the policy of phasing out the NTS workers. The decision has been made and they will be phased out as and when their work permits expire. It is not necessary for me to go through all the social problems that are likely to be created by the NTS workers if they come in in large numbers and if they are allowed to remain in Singapore for a long period of time. But, as has been expressed by the Member for Chong Boon, some industries felt that the sudden change or the sudden announcement of the phasing out of the NTS workers took them by surprise and had created or would create some problems in their operations. The Ministry, after consultation with the various bodies, decided to help these industries in the transition period and would allow 5% of the NTS workers to remain for another one or two years, or to extend the work permits of NTS workers for another one or two years. But this should only be up to 5% of the total workforce of the particular establishment, in any case not more than 50, provided they can prove to the Ministry of Labour that they have already taken definite measures to upgrade and mechanize their operations and so on, so that eventually they can carry on with their operations without NTS workers. In fact, the extension of NTS workers for another one or two years also serves as an incentive for the industry to mechanize and automate.

Regarding the question of NTS workers, how stable or unstable they are, the stability of the supply and the stability of their stay in Singapore -

Dr Augustine Tan: On a point of clarification, Sir. It is not only the NTS workers but also the other work permit holders that I was more concerned with.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, the NTS workers and also the traditional source workers have been allowed to come to Singapore with work permits to take on jobs that Singaporeans shun, especially in the construction industry. Not all of them remain, as we all know. But some do remain. Of course, there are quite a number of them who have learned the skill and returned to their country. That, of course, is a loss to Singapore because they have learned the skill and they have left us. But many do not or did not stay long. They worked here for a few months and return. They are no loss to us. If the skilled workers, either traditional or non-traditional, after having worked here for some years, have upgraded themselves and even acquired a higher skill and wish to remain in Singapore as permanent residents or eventually citizens, we will encourage that. Of course, they will have to learn the necessary skill, take a trade test with the VITB and if they are required in industries with a particular shortage of this type of skilled workers, we will welcome them. But in the construction industry, I think this deals mainly with the HDB. The HDB has a system of core contractors who are given long-term contracts to encourage them to employ workers directly, instead of depending on sub-contractors and the kepala system. The problem of the construction industry is that no contractor will guarantee a long-term contract from one contract to the next, following one after another. Sometimes they get three or four contracts together, and sometimes they have a lull period with no contracts at all. That system does not encourage them to employ permanent workers. If they are not encouraged to employ permanent workers, then there is no reason why they should put in money to train them. But with the system now operating by the HDB, we hope that we will be able to attract workers to be employed directly by the contractors and remain there to learn the skill. It is not only that they will be able to retain the skill but also to promote company loyalty.

7.00 p.m.

The Member for Whampoa also wanted to know whether the CPF has made any projections. Yes, projections have been made. I do not have the figures here. If he would ask a Question for Written Answer, I will be happy to provide him with the details. This is one of the main concerns of the Government, to ensure that workers have sufficient savings for their old age and also that they have sufficient savings to purchase or own HDB flats. This is one of the reasons why the CPF contribution rate has been raised over the years to 45% to date.

The Member for Toa Payoh raised the issue on retrenched workers given shock notice. I agree with him that there is a need to inculcate employers on company loyalty. In fact, the campaign to inculcate employers on the need to promote company loyalty has been going on for the last two years and has achieved some success. However, I do tend to agree with the Member for Kebun Baru who spoke earlier that not all employers are angels and not all managements are enlightened. We hope that they would be more enlightened in the near future. But some success has been achieved in this regard because despite recessions in 1982 and 1983 so far, the retrenchment figure has not been too alarming. On the contrary, the lay-offs of workers has increased. That means companies lay-off their workers instead of retrenching them hoping to keep them until business is good or until there is an upturn in the economy.

The Member also suggested that grants be made by the Skills Development Fund to retrenched workers to upgrade their skills. I think this has already been covered in the BEST programme. Companies were encouraged through the NTUC to organize courses for their workers during this dull or down-period to provide them with the necessary knowledge in language and in mathematics so that they will be prepared to learn a skill.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Mr Speaker, Sir, may I raise a point of clarification. I agree that the BEST programme has done its part. But what I am referring to are workers who have already been retrenched and they cannot be sponsored by an employer. So they have to acquire skills on their own.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, the Skills Development Fund does not come under my portfolio. Perhaps the Member would like to raise this matter with the Minister for Finance. If a worker is retrenched, there is nothing to prevent him from continuing to attend the BEST programme through the NTUC.

Mr Eric Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I raised the same subject sometime ago. If workers are retrenched and seek to acquire a new skill, as the fees for the BEST programme are not very high, they can afford to pay the fees. But what I am concerned is that during the period of training or learning, the retrenched worker has to take care of members of his family. Being unemployed, he has no other recourse to maintain his family. I would agree that the Skills Development Fund is not under the Minister's portfolio. But my suggestion is: could the Minister put up such a recommendation?

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, I thought since the Member for Toa Payoh is with the NTUC, perhaps he would like to raise it with the NTUC and see what the NTUC can do to help these workers.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

7.07 p.m.

The Minister of State for Labour (Dr Wong Kwei Cheong): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am answering on behalf of my Minister.

May I first thank the hon. Member for Moulmein for drawing the attention of this House to the Cowec scheme. For the information of hon. Members, Cowec is the acronym for Company Welfarism from Employers' Contributions. The possibility of using a portion of the CPF for company welfare benefits was first indicated by the Prime Minister in his National Day Rally speech of August 1981. The National Productivity Council (NPC) was set up in September 1981 and one of the first issues considered was the use of CPF monies for company welfare benefits. After much deliberation, the NPC was able to draw up a set of guidelines for the implementation of company welfarism from employers' contributions.

Conceptually, the Cowec scheme aims to link workers' contributions with company performance and good management. In countries where there is an absence of this linkage, the result has been an erosion of the will to work and the will to improve performance. While the welfare of the workers is cushioned by state subsidies and state welfare, they have become unmotivated and unproductive. We need to be vigilant to ensure that this does not happen to our economy. It is to reinforce and enhance the nexus between the employees and their company that the Cowec scheme was proposed. Cowec will be a voluntary scheme for both employers and existing employees. For this reason, it is necessary to give it time to develop and become generally accepted. We will therefore start with a few pilot companies.

Under the Cowec scheme, companies will be allowed to retain 10% of the 22% that employers contribute to the CPF in a trust fund to be set up for workers' welfare. The other 12% and the employees' own contribution of 23% will as usual go to the CPF. There is no question of employers having to pay more under the scheme. The 10% which would have gone to the CPF is now redirected to the trust under the Cowec scheme fund. The only burden to the employers is in the administration of the scheme and this is not onerous or expensive. In any case, they will reap the benefits of a more loyal work force.

The problem of employees feeling underpaid also does not arise. Under the scheme, employee's take-home pay will not be affected at all. They will not be asked to make additional contributions. In fact, employees tend to gain from the Cowec scheme. The 10% which will be administered by the companies can still be used to finance housing and other approved schemes under the CPF. The higher investment income which the companies can earn for them will be used for more welfare benefits. To top it all, the 10% principal sum will be safeguarded by a banker's guarantee.

Mr Sia Khoon Seong: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn. The following amendments stood on the Order Paper Supplement -

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe:

Dr Wan Soon Bee: (3) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RC-01 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Lim Boon Heng: (4) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RC-03 of the Main Estimates.

The Chairman: Amendment (3), Encik Othman.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Dr Wan is not here. Amendment (4), Mr Lim.

Mr Lim Boon Heng: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment (5), Mr Goh.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RD-01 of the Main Estimates.*

Sir, in moving this amendment, I wish to express my concern over the increasing number of fatal and permanent disablement accidents that have occurred at the work place in Singapore. The construction industry, in particular, has had a very bad record in 1982. The number of fatal cases at the construction site increased by 75%, from 28 cases to 49 cases. The number of temporary and permanent disablement cases has also increased. The shipbuilding industry has also recorded an increase in the number of industrial accidents.

Sir, industrial accidents cause immeasurable suffering, anguish and misery to the unfortunate victims and their families. They also represent a loss to the nation of our valuable manpower resource. We must prevent accidents and loss of lives and limbs at all cost. As Singapore becomes more developed, improving working conditions and obtaining better safety results must follow in the light of such progress.

Sir, I believe the Ministry of Labour should intensify their efforts to inculcate safety consciousness among the employers and the workers. At the same time, stiff enforcement actions must be taken to penalize those who flout safety rules.

Under the Factories Act, Safety Committee comprising management and workers' representatives must be set up in any establishment which employs more than 50 persons. I believe the most important function of the Safety Committee is to prevent accidents and not just to investigate into the accident after it has occurred. In this respect, I would like to ask the Ministry to make sure that all the members of the Safety Committees are adequately trained so that they can carry out their duties effectively. The Safety Committees must also be vested with adequate power to enforce safety rules at the work place. Under no circumstances should the urgency of any operations or work schedules result in the safety measures being neglected.

I would like to bring the attention of the Minister that in many companies, the Safety Committee is put under the control of the production department. This I think is not desirable. There is a tendency for safety standard to be compromised when the production department is under pressure to meet the production schedules. In my view, the Safety Committee should be answerable to the top management, and not to receive directives from the production department.

Sir, I am equally concerned with the high incidence of occupational diseases which were reported in recent years. Statistics showed that industrial dermatitis and noise induced deafness are the two leading industrial diseases in Singapore. As such industrial diseases usually take some time to develop, we must emphasize on the preventive aspect. The Ministry must introduce medical surveillance programme and impose statutory medical examination as soon as possible to cover all hazardous occupations. The Ministry must also ensure that whoever carries out the examination must be competent enough to detect diseases at an early stage and to recommend preventive measures.

Sir, may I also take this opportunity to suggest to the Minister that it is time to review the rate and amount of compensation stipulated under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Sir, nobody looks forward to receiving workmen's compensation but with the rising cost of living we must ensure that the amount of compensation to be awarded to the unfortunate victims of industrial accidents and occupational diseases is adequate and realistic. The rate must therefore be constantly reviewed to take into account the increasing cost of living. 7.15 p.m.

Encik Abbas Abu Amin (Pasir Panjang): Sir, I have another amendment, No. 7*. May I have your permission to speak on this amendment as well, as the two amendments are inter-related?

The Chairman: Yes,

Encik Abbas Abu Amin: Sir, the Ministry of Labour must be complimented for the selfless effort made in the field of industrial health and safety. The Ministry has played a significant role in the implementation of the laws pertaining to industrial health and safety in terms of its application, enforcement and its promotion.

It is noted that various other measures have been taken by the Ministry to augment the existing system notably in educating the industrial workers on the safety and occupational aspect.

Nevertheless, even with the relentless efforts made by the Ministry in the field of industrial health and safety, there are still areas in which further improvement could be made, viz:

(a) in the enforcement and inspection area;

(b) promotion of labour welfare and education. The areas mentioned above are specifically directed at the industrial work sites with particular emphasis on the ship building and the building construction industries.

I have directed my attention to these two particular industries as it is felt that immediate and meaningful action should be taken to the two areas as outlined above. I am particularly concerned with the number of industrial accidents which are taking place especially in the two industries.

Statistics show that the shipbuilding industry recorded an increase of 2% from 1,239 in 1981 to 1,264 in 1982 respectively in the number of minor accidents and permanent disablement accidents. The number of fatal accidents has, however, shown a significant drop of 57.1% from 21 in 1981 to nine in 1982.

The building construction industry had a relatively bad year in 1982. There was an increase of 35% in the number of minor accidents and an increase of 76% in the number of permanent disablement accidents as compared to 1981. The number of fatal accidents increased by 75%. (The number of minor accidents, permanent disablement accidents and fatal accidents were 1,377, 44 and 49 respectively in 1982 as compared to 1,020, 25 and 28 respectively in 1981).

The two main causes of fatal accidents in the construction industry in 1981 were:-

(a) fall of persons (12 cases);

(b) struck by falling objects (10 cases); and

(c) the other two cases were electrocution (two cases) and vehicle and transport (four cases).

Sir, the House is aware that the Building Construction industry will have to play a very special role in the 80's. With the MRT project, the building construction industry will be in its full capacity, let alone the continuous construction that will be taking place in the building of private housing.

If statistics is anything to go by, I am afraid to note that the building construction industries deserve special attention from the Ministry of Labour in terms of occupational health and safety.

Perhaps I may say that despite the rigid legislation and the stringent enforcement by the Ministry of Labour, industrial accidents in the building industry are escalating. The trend denotes that greater emphasis should be given in areas of enforcement and inspection. Perhaps the Ministry will take into consideration the role wherein the building construction industry will have to play especially with the MRT project. The Ministry will have to pay particular attention to the number of enforcement personnel and in the frequency of inspection that may be required. This is particularly important because not only will the building construction industry demand the added attention but also with the type of technology that are to be introduced in the industry, may warrant certain types of specialists in the field of industrial health and safety. The Ministry's role in this area is magnified and due care and attention must be given to the lives of the workers who may be deployed in the industry. If I may add, perhaps when it deems necessary, harsher penalties will have to be imposed on those who flout safety regulations.

Sir, I also would like to draw the House's attention to the newspaper report on 8th March 1983 which stated that only 2,000 workers out of the total 80,000, i.e. 2.5% only in the building construction industry have received formal training on industrial health and safety pertaining to their trade. The reasons given for such a low figure for trained workforce as outlined by one official from the Singapore Contractors Association are as follows:-

(a) Language has been the main problem in the medium of instruction, ie English is the medium used and the majority of the building construction workers are not literate to understand the medium.

(b) that there is insufficient priority given by the contractors for such safety courses.

(c) that contractors find it difficult to release their men for such courses due to shortage of labour in such industry.

If one were to analyse the main reasons given above, it would imply that the Ministry of Labour has a greater role to play in assisting the workers of the building construction.

It is sad to note that the Ministry of Labour do not have sufficient trained personnel who are qualified to conduct courses in the language required and as such many of the workers may not be able to benefit the effects of a safer work environment. Perhaps the Ministry could pay immediate attention to the problem which had surfaced in the training and education of workers in the building construction industry.

With the MRT project, building construction industry will play a greater role towards our economic progress. The building construction industry has been plagued by shortage of labour over a period of years. Genuine effort is being made to remedy the situation and to entice Singaporeans into the industry.

Our problem to be self-sufficient could be greatly magnified if it is found that occupational health and safety is neglected in the very industry which we try to promote. On the contrary, we should try to allay the fears which are affecting our Singaporeans to make a living in the building construction industry.

I have dwelt on the subject of occupational health and safety for one purpose, that is, each year, statistics show that industrial accidents are on the increase. Lives have been lost unnecessarily, either through neglect or ignorance. Such lives could have been saved if correct attitude and proper education could be instilled into our workers especially in the building construction industry. This is where both management and government can play an important role towards labour welfarism. The Ministry can greatly assist in this area for the purpose of making the building construction industry a safe and healthy place to work.

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, would you also like to speak on industrial safety?

Mr Jeyaretnam: May I speak on that later on, because I would probably want the time to clarify this point.

The Chairman: All right.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, before I speak on this Subhead, may I, first of all, say, in view of Mr Speaker's ruling, that my firm does act for employees in actions against employers but I have no direct personal pecuniary interest in this subject. And also before I come to the subject proper, may i say a few words on the speech of the Member for West Coast that I have had to listen to. He spent most of his time railing against whatever I said in this House. May I say, Sir, that it is a gross distortion of the truth to say that I have been speaking in this House on behalf of hundreds of thousands of foreign workers.

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, it is not quite relevant to the amendment.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes, but I was told by the Chairman then that I could reply to this.

The Chairman: Keep it very brief, please.

Mr Jeyaretnam: All right. I spoke on behalf of the wives, foreign women, who married Singapore citizens. They are no longer foreigners once they decide to marry Singapore men and choose to make Singapore their home. The second distortion, a gross distortion of the truth, is when he says that I suggested that the $819 million which I said had been collected under false pretence should be turned over to the employers. I said nothing of that sort. I said, first of all, you should set up a committee comprising Members from both sides of the House.

Dr Wan Soon Bee: Point of order, Sir. Can the Member continue to speak on this topic? After all, the subject is Labour Inspection and Safety. I think he can make some clarification but he is making a whole speech.

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, I think you are going a bit too far, As I said, do keep it brief. There is no objection. I allowed you to -

Mr Jeyaretnam: The Member was allowed to carry on with his railings.

The Chairman: It was relevant to the particular amendment under discussion.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Was it?

The Chairman: Yes. Would you please come to the point, i.e. Labour Inspection?

Mr Jeyaretnam: All right, then. All I wish to say to the Member is that, if he has to resort to distortions of the truth, it only shows the poverty of his argument. And I say that to all other Members as well, if they have to resort to distortions of their opponent's arguments.

The Subhead that I have chosen to speak on is Labour Inspection and if you see the Programme Description for this Programme in the Budget, it says:

'The inspection of work places to ensure that employers comply with statutory rules governing terms and conditions of service and the investigation of violations of labour welfare legislation.'

That Subhead has nothing to do with industrial safety. I have another amendment when it comes to industrial safety. What I would like to know from the Minister is, how is his Ministry carrying out this "inspection of work places to ensure that employers comply with the statutory rules governing terms and conditions of service and the investigation of violations of labour welfare legislation"? I would like to know how this is done? What sanctions, if any, are applied by his Ministry when employers are found to have violated the terms and conditions of service of their employees? What sanctions are applied, for example, if Inspectors from the Minis- try go to a workplace and find that workers are being made to work in insanitary conditions or in conditions which are not amenable to their health or their comfort? We hear in this House, time and time again, pious hopes - that employers will become more enlightened, employers will learn that they should treat their employees well in the interest of the company. It is not good enough to utter pious hopes. What we want to know is what is the Ministry doing to ensure that employers are providing the minimum terms and conditions of service provided in the Employment Act for their employees and, what is more, what is the Ministry doing to see that employees or workers are not made to work in insanitary conditions, that proper amenities are being provided for them in their work place, and that the work place is a happy place for them. This is what I would like to know from the Minister before I say anything further on this Subhead. 7.30 p.m.

Dr Wong Kwei Cheong: Sir, may I first thank the Member for Pasir Panjang and the Member for Boon Lay for their concern for the safety of workers. I am not too sure if the hon. Member for Anson is really concerned about the safety of workers or about their toilet habits, but I will come to that later.

As I told the House on 4th March, 1983, the number of accidents in the construction industry has increased from 1,073 in 1981 to 1,460 in 1982. The number of deaths has also increased from 28 in 1981 to 49 in 1982. Measures that my Ministry has taken to improve safety in the construction industry include more stringent enforcement, particularly on the provision of work platforms, barricades and overhead shelters. Further, my Ministry will not renew or grant work permits to foreign workers employed by recalcitrant contractors. We are also considering revoking work permits of existing workers of such contractors.

Turning to the question raised by the Member for Pasir Panjang, I would like to explain that the Ministry conducts surprise inspections in addition to routine inspections. For routine inspections, my Ministry adopts a policy of selective enforcement which is based on the hazards associated with the various stages of construction and the safety records of contractors. Generally, the more hazardous worksites with high-rise construction are inspected about once every four weeks. Worksites of contractors with unsatisfactory safety records are inspected once every three weeks. Surprise inspections are carried out on worksites of contractors who persistently flout safety rules. Contractors whose worksites are found to be grossly unsafe were ordered to stop work, and fined. Surprise inspections and routine inspections have a deterrent effect on contractors. However, such enforcement measures alone will not be sufficient to ensure a safe working environment.

The root of the problem is that our workers and contractors are not safety-conscious. A more effective solution would be to inculcate greater safety consciousness amongst workers and contractors and to motivate them to adopt self-regulatory measures at the worksites. No doubt, the Member for Pasir Panjang will agree with me that this is an uphill task, particularly if he has followed recent statements in the press made by some professionals who openly ridiculed protective gears and safety measures.

Efforts must be made to promote self-regulation at worksites. The law requires that worksites employing 50 or more workers to form safety committees. I agree with the Member for Boon Lay that members of safety committees should be given appropriate training for them to be effective. In fact, safety supervisors who are usually secretaries of the safety committee have been trained in accident prevention. While the training of supervisors and members of safety committees is important, we have not neglected an equally important aspect of the training of workers at worksites. The Safety Orientation course on accident prevention designed for workers is currently conducted by the National Productivity Board. In this course, hazards and safety measures are illustrated by slides and films. Since emphasis is placed on teaching simple concepts of safety, extensive use is made of visual teaching materials. Workers should have little difficulty in following it, especially when guided by instructors.

These courses are presently conducted in Mandarin and English. It will also be conducted in Malay. The question raised by the Member for Pasir Panjang on the shortage of Malay instructors is only a teething problem which the National Productivity Board will have no difficulty in eventually overcoming. Action is already being taken to recruit the requisite number of Malay instructors for the course. Other instructors will be recruited when the need arises.

Response of the contractors to the Safety Orientation course, however, has been disappointing. My Ministry is considering measures to encourage contractors to send workers to attend the course. The Ministry may in the near future require contractors applying for new or renewal of work permits to ensure that a certain minimum percentage of workers have undergone the Safety Orientation course.

The Member for Boon Lay also brought up the question of the control of safety committees. Contrary to the impression formed by the Member for Boon Lay, the many safety committees are under the control of the production department. A recent survey conducted by my Ministry revealed that more than 80% of the committees are chaired by managing directors or top management representatives. I would also like to inform the Member that my Ministry, besides organizing campaigns and training courses, has been closely monitoring the safety situation of the industry.

For industries that are problematic, special enforcement exercises are carried out. For instance, my Ministry has conducted special inspection exercises on power presses in metal-working factories to ensure that they are properly guarded. Similar enforcement exercises are carried out at construction worksites to ensure that proper work platforms, barricades and overhead shelters are provided.

As to the worry of the Member for Anson about sanitary conditions, I am sure the inspections carried out by my inspectors, in particular, on the safety aspects, are far more important than the toilet conditions of the sites that they are visiting. For his information, adequate measures are taken to ensure that in the event that the employers violate the rules, especially safety rules, the Ministry will take the necessary action to fine them. In fact, in 1982 a total of $136,500 were collected as fines compared to $110,175 collected in 1981. For more serious offences, the employers were prosecuted. In fact, in 1982, 33 employers were prosecuted for offences in relation to violation of rules.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, as I indicated, this Subhead does not deal with industrial safety but with the "terms and conditions of service and the investigation of violations of labour welfare legislation." I am afraid the Hon. Minister of State has not answered my question. I must protest,

I want to know how the Ministry carries out an inspection at work places to see that employers comply with the minimum terms and conditions of service, not safety at the moment. We are not concerned with that at the moment but with the minimum terms and conditions of service. For example, that they pay overtime regularly if any of the employees are asked to stay behind and work overtime. That is one aspect of their terms and conditions of service. The other aspect is proper provision of sanitary facilities. Another aspect is whether the work places are properly ventilated, whether they are being overcrowded. One can think of a number of things. I want to know how does the Ministry ensure all this?

Dr Wong Kwei Cheong: Sir, on a point of order. I am afraid the Member for Anson does not know what he is talking about. This Subhead deals with labour inspections, in particular, inspection of safety worksites and so on. If he wants to talk about terms of employment, he should refer to another Subhead, i.e. under Subhead RC-02.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I do not know where the Minister of State is reading from. But I see from the Programme Description, Labour Inspection, it states:

'The inspection of work places to ensure that employers comply with statutory rules governing terms and conditions of service and the investigation of violations of labour welfare legislation.' That is the Subhead on which I am talking.

Dr Wong Kwei Cheong: The two Members have already spoken on safety inspections. He is referring to the same Subhead.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, perhaps I may interject here. What the Member for Anson is questioning is how do the labour inspectors carry out this work to ensure that employers comply with statutory rules governing terms and conditions of employment.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes. The Minister of State does not understand that.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: The Member for Anson will perhaps agree that it is not practical or feasible for the labour inspectors to go to every firm and establishment to check the terms and conditions of employment. But they do act on complaints when received. They do investigate into cases where employers do not give workers their annual leave and sick leave and other benefits that they are entitled to under the Employment Act. This is being done all the time. If there are complaints, inspectors will interview the employees and employers and, where necessary, will require employers to provide those statutory benefits that the employees are entitled to. I think the Member for Anson is referring to this. This is being done.

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, on the point of safety committees, I am very glad to hear that 80% of the safety committees are chaired by managing directors. May I know what happens to the remaining 20%, and what is the Ministry going to do with the remaining 20%? Also, is the Minister of State very sure that the managing directors do not delegate their duties to the production managers?

Dr Wong Kwei Cheong: The majority 80% are headed by managing directors. I suppose the balance of 20% could be managed by the production departments, as I have indicated.

7.45 p.m.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, I would like a further clarification. As I understand the Minister, it is only when complaints are received that he sends out his inspectors. He does not have any periodic inspections, or inspectors dropping in on work places to see whether they are conducive to the health of the workers.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, my Minister of State has already answered that question in his reply to the other Members. The labour inspectors do conduct routine and surprise inspections.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Safety.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Yes, safety inspections. I have explained to Members that it is not feasible and practical to go to every establishment or company in Singapore and ask to examine the terms and conditions. I do not know whether the Member for Anson would like the Factory Inspector to visit his office and check all these matters.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Do that.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: You think it is going to be useful?

Mr Goh Chee Wee: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood on the Order Paper Supplement:

(6) That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RD-02 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Jabbar: I am not moving, Sir,

Dr Chau Sik Ting: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head R be reduced by $10 in respect of Subhead RD-03 of the Main Estimates.*

In moving this amendment, I am taking the opportunity to highlight the need for a change in our existing Factories Act.

The recent argument between the Ministry of Labour and the Singapore Dental Association over the registration of dental clinics under the Factories Act has generated a lot of public interest. The adage, "fools rush in where angels fear to tread" may make me seem foolhardy enough to enter into this particular controversy. However, I hope to make a positive contribution.

The Ministry of Labour's viewpoint on the issue runs something like this. Air receivers or air compressors have the potential to explode and they can be considered dangerous. People who are working with such air receivers and air compressors need to be protected. Dental workshops do have these air receivers, air compressors, and dental technicians working with them. According to the definition of the Factories Act, such a work place may be deemed to be a "factory" and, therefore, the argument goes, a dental workshop attached to a dental clinic can be registered as a factory for the purpose of the legal requirements of the Factories Act.

On the other hand, the Singapore Dental Association's viewpoint seems to be this. The safety issue of the air receivers and air compressors in dental workshops is not in question. They apparently concede that there is a need to protect the workers handling such air receivers but they vehemently protest at the thought of registering "dental clinics" as "factories" under the Factories Act. They cannot accept the idea that a clinic for the treatment of dental patients relating to the dental profession could by any stretch of the imagination be construed as a "factory" manufacturing goods or associated with serious occupational hazards. A deadlock seems to have been reached with the Ministry of Labour insisting that a "dental clinic" could be considered a "factory" because of the definition in the Factories Act, and with the Singapore Dental Association just as vigorously protesting that a clinic cannot by any stretch of the imagination be equated to a factory.

Fortunately, both parties do not disagree on the subject of safety. Only in the definition of clinic as a factory is where the sharp differences arise. The drift of argument can be reduced to simple terms like this. A factory, by definition, is a type of work place which has certain conditions, including having an air receiver and air compressor. Since a dental clinic is a work place where there is an air receiver and air compressor, the conclusion is that the dental clinic is a "factory". The Singapore Dental Association's counter assertion is that the conclusion cannot be that a dental clinic is a factory. The argument is that if A=B because of certain features where A is a factory and B is a work place and C=B because of similar features where C is a dental clinic, this does not necessarily mean that since A and C are both equal to B, A must be equal to C. In other words, all factories are work places but not all work places are factories.

A dental clinic is a work place but it is not a factory. There is some merit in this type of argument. The point I would like to make is that I do not think the Singapore Dental Association would object to calling a dental workshop a work place with air receivers and air compressors. What they are vigorously objecting to is that a dental clinic is being equated with a factory.

It would appear from the statements made by the Ministry of Labour that there are work places other than what are normally understood as factories which may have serious hazards, actual or potential. It is the declared intention of the Ministry to move into these areas to protect the health and safety of workers. This is a laudable aim.

Taking this cue, I would now wish to concur that indeed, there are other work places such as laboratories, tyre shops, petrol kiosks, warehouses, to name just a few, which are not normally included in the common meaning of the term "factories" but which do have hazards worthy of attention. In other words, the scope of safety and health protection of workers under the Factories Act should be widened to cover workers in hazardous work places other than "factories".

If one goes into the history of the Factories Act, one will come to the conclusion that essentially it is a good piece of legislation. But the name "factory" only refers to the locale of the operation of the law. The subject matter, however, is really the safety and health of workers. If that is so, why not just name that piece of legislation as "Health and Safety at Work Act" rather than "Factories Act"?

In the early stages of the evolution of the Factories Act, coming directly from the British Factories Ordinance, it is well to call it or to label it a Factories Act to emphasize its focus on factories. But with the progress in industrialization involving the use of numerous chemicals and hazardous materials, there are now many other work places which should come under the umbrella of this type of legislation.

What I am suggesting is that the Ministry of Labour should now, at this point of our industrialization process and development where occupational safety and health issues are likely to come into greater prominence, consider improving the Factories Act and broaden it to a "Health and Safety at Work Act" with the main objective of widening the scope of the health and safety protective coverage to include work places other than "factories".

This is not a new idea. The industrialized countries of the West have already done this. For example, the United States does not have a Factories Act. In 1970 Congress introduced a comprehensive Occupational Safety and Health Act which covers all types of work places besides factories which have hazards. In the U.K. there is the Health and Safety at Work Act passed by the British Parliament in 1974. This is an enabling legislation which covers all work places.

This is a new trend in the development of occupational safety and health legislation. It is a good trend which, if followed, will increase the health and safety protection benefits presently covering an estimated 200,000 workers in "factories" to at least 300,000 or more work people in all work places.

I hope I have been able to make out a case for the Ministry of Labour to consider changes to the present "Factory" legislation from a narrow to a wider application of Health and Safety protection which will benefit a greater number of an important productive segment of our Singapore working population.

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, you have only about two minutes before the moment of interruption.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, would you rather that I speak today or shall I speak tomorrow?

The Chairman: I leave it to you.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I would rather speak tomorrow since, as you have said, I have only two minutes.

The Chairman: All right. Order.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Ong Teng Cheong: Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1st April, 1983 to 31st March, 1984, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.