MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1991 TO 31ST MARCH, 1992

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head S (cont.) -

Resumption of Debate on Question [18th March, 1991],

"That the total sum to be allocated for Head S of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100." - [Mr Lim Boon Heng].

Question again proposed.

Mr Lim Boon Heng (Kebun Baru): Sir, I wish now to talk on workers' rights on restructuring of companies. At the outset, let me state the question that I am putting to the Minister: Will the Ministry draw up guidelines for protecting workers' rights when companies are restructured and, in due course, legislate when principles are tested in practice and found to be fair and equitable?

Let me explain. One of the most widely acclaimed books in the past two years is "The Age of Unreason" by Prof. Charles Handy. Drawing from his studies of the changing structure of organisations, he postulates that companies are moving towards what he describes as "the Shamrock organisation", one with four leaves, as in a shamrock. The first leaf represents the core workers. These are professionals, technicians and managers who are the essential core of a company. The second leaf represents sub-contractors. These sub-contractors produce goods or services that need not be done by the core. The third leaf represents a flexible labour force, consisting of part-time workers and temporary workers who are drawn on to meet the needs of peak workloads. The fourth leaf is getting the customer to do the work, as in self-service supermarkets, fast-food restaurants, and the use of ATMs.

The Shamrock organisation is more efficient and, therefore, more competitive. What Prof. Charles Handy describes is happening in Singapore.

In the public sector, this is shown in the move to privatise, corporatise or to restructure. Examples: restructuring of hospitals, formation of Town Councils, privatisation of statutory boards like Telecom. In the private sector, large companies hive off divisions into subsidiary companies. For example, SIA has set up SATS to handle catering, Tradewinds for regional services, SEOC for aircraft repairs and maintenance, and more restructuring cannot be precluded.

In the process of restructuring, companies at times acquire other companies, or sell off parts of their business. In the sale of a business, sometimes it is only the assets which are sold. Now, what happens to the rights of workers when this kind of restructuring takes place? Has an employer the right to set up another company and transfer workers to the new company? Should an employee be given the right to choose to remain with the original employer or to move on to a new company? Are retrenchment benefits payable? Is a successor employer obliged to undertake the obligations of the predecessor employer towards its workers? If it does, does it have the ability to provide the workers with the same security of employment? There is a host of questions which need to be answered.

In the past few years, more companies have been restructuring. The problems that arise are the most complex and potentially highly disruptive to our industrial relations climate. As may be expected, any change leads to uncertainty among employees, causing a drop in morale, unhappiness and even unofficial industrial action.

We have only the provisions for redundancy in legislation to deal with such cases. However, such provisions and case law are inadequate to deal with restructuring of the type we are now seeing. As a result, it takes a long time before agreements can be reached between unions and management. Take, for example, the case of HDB and Town Councils. With the formation of Town Councils, conservancy work was transferred from HDB to Town Councils. HDB offered to the conservancy workers employment in a new company called Cleantech Services. The unhappiness that arose led to pockets of workers going on an unofficial and illegal work-to-rule. The management finally agreed to retrench the workers, but the decision came too late to avoid the work-to-rule which affected the standards of cleanliness in some HDB estates in 1989.

Another group of workers, the estate management staff, was similarly affected by the change. However, because HDB has enough vacancies within its other departments, the Finance Ministry's criteria for determining whether a redundancy situation exists were not met. These staff were offered employment in the subsidiary company, EM Services, on superior wages and with recognition of their previous service with HDB for determining benefits which are dependent on length of service. As may be expected, not all have opted to join, and some are returning to HDB.

Let me cite another example. There has been uncertainty and unrest caused by the restructuring of hospitals. When the hospitals are restructured, the entire assets are transferred into private companies. The work of the hospital staff remains largely the same. Most of the staff have agreed to work for the restructured hospitals. But there have been some who asked to be transferred to other Government hospitals. With restructuring of hospitals continuing, one day they can only be posted to Woodbridge Hospital. If their services cannot be used there, the question remains whether they will be retrenched and whether retrenchment benefits will be paid.

I am told that under common law a contract of employment is not transferable to another employer. However, there is no legal provision for redundancy payments in such cases in our legislation. In the United Kingdom, the Redundancy Payments Act of 1965, the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act of 1978 and the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981 would apply. Under English law, the employee is considered to have been dismissed by reason of redundancy if there has been a change of employer. However, transfer of a business, or part thereof, does not in itself constitute dismissal unless, inter alia, organisational changes entail changes in the workforce.

The examples I have quoted, and there are others in the private sector, for example, the sale by Degussa of one of its divisions to American Fine Wires, show us that it is necessary to study the issues in depth, frame a set of regulations or guide-lines for dealing with such cases and, in due course, pass legislation, if necessary.

Whilst I have asked the Minister if he would do this, the GPC for Labour would be happy to assist in finding the appropriate guidelines, and as such would welcome contributions from employers, unions, academia and members of the public. 12.45 pm

The Minister for Labour (Mr Lee Yock Suan): Sir, before I respond to Mr Lim Boon Heng concerning the restructuring of companies, may I just take a few minutes to clarify what I said yesterday.

We were discussing Mr Goh Chee Wee's figures and this gave rise to the report in the Straits Times today - "MP's figures inaccurate: Labour Minister". Maybe it was the way I put it, but I just want to clarify that I did not say that Mr Goh Chee Wee's figures were inaccurate. I did say that the figure for workers earning below $400 per month does not reflect the salary situation in Singapore. However, concerning the figure for workers earning below $600 per month, after adjusting for foreign workers, part-timers, students, new workers, and so forth, there is indeed a number of other Singaporeans whose salaries are below $600 per month. Many of them are older, unskilled workers. Incidentally, the salaries reported do not include employers' CPF contributions.

Having made this clarification, Sir, may I just elaborate a little on why these older, unskilled workers earn salaries which appear low by Singapore standards. Their salaries are the values placed on their jobs by the market, that is, by supply and demand. As there are many workers, including foreign workers, with such low level skills, the market is only prepared to pay them so much. On the other hand, if our workers are able to upgrade themselves and acquire skills which are more in demand, then their salaries will improve.

Ours is an open economy where wages are set by the market and by international competition. Investors come here because we have skilled and productive workers at competitive salaries. We cannot arbitrarily set salary levels. Even in closed economies, attempts to set minimum wages have given rise to unemployment.

Sir, may I next turn to Mr Lim Boon Heng's points. I agree with him that this is indeed a complex issue and that guidelines will be useful to guide the affected parties in such situations. In Singapore, the accepted practice is for employees to be paid retrenchment benefits when they are made redundant as a result of poor business or reorganisation of the company. Such cases may involve the sale of part of a company's assets with consequent reduction in staffing levels. Yesterday, we also discussed the case of liquidation which is a terminal case.

Another situation is when the shares of a company are sold to other shareholders without any change in the company's business and employment. The workers continue to be employed by the company and their jobs are not affected. Therefore, no retrenchment benefit is payable. In fact, this happens every day. When shares are transacted on the stock market, the ownership may be changing but nobody is asking for retrenchment benefits.

Other cases may involve more complicated situations of restructuring, as mentioned by Mr Lim Boon Heng. It is not clear whether retrenchment benefits or any other forms of compensation should be paid to the affected employees in such situations.

I therefore agree with the Member that it will be useful to draw up some guidelines to assess such situations.

Some factors we could consider are: firstly, are the employees' jobs affected? Secondly, is seniority and length of service recognised? Thirdly, does the employee suffer any hardship or inconvenience resulting from the restructuring? Fourthly, which entities are involved and are they related?

My officers are studying this matter and will welcome views and suggestions, and we will be happy to work closely with the GPC for Labour on this matter. My officers will consult the unions and employer organisations to try and establish mutually acceptable guidelines which should be flexible enough to deal with various situations.

Whatever we do, Sir, we must maintain flexibility to restructure and respond to changing needs and economic circumstances. Singaporean workers have always understood and accepted this, for example, the need to automate. At the same time, their difficulties and needs must be recognised. Whilst studying legislation from other countries, we must of course not copy them blindly, lest we get locked into inflexible and self-defeating legislation. Hence, flexible guidelines will be useful as a start to resolve disputes which may arise with the restructuring of various organisations.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh (Non-Constituency Member): Sir, can I get some clarification from the Minister?

The Chairman: All right.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: The Minister is supposed to have clarified the situation concerning the figures given by Mr Lim Boon Heng. I feel that I am more confused. And I feel many other people are also confused. So I am wondering whether the Minister would be good enough to give us a total breakdown of the various categories of workers, ie, the number of students, those who are part-timers, those who are aged 45 and above, those who earn less than $400, less than $600, less than $800, for the last two or three years. Then everyone will be very happy.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, I think most Members here are already quite clear from what I said yesterday about the workers earning below $400 and $600. I mentioned that the figures include National Servicemen, students, and so forth. But if the Member wants to have further figures, I will ask my officers to see whether they can put up some data for him.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe (Marine Parade GRC): Sir, it is well known that we now enjoy excellent labour-management cooperation. Our union leadership is responsible and constructive and takes the lead to promote good labour-management relations. However, Sir, we cannot take our industrial peace and harmony for granted. Management and labour must continue to work together to enhance our excellent labour-management cooperation. We must work together to identify the issues which can adversely affect labour-management cooperation.

Sir, I would like to deal with one issue which can have an impact on labour-management cooperation, that is, the need to have better information sharing between labour and management. I do not need to stress that information sharing helps promote trust and confidence between employers and unions. Our management must be ready to take the unions and their leaders into their confidence and provide information of their company's performance and prospects, especially during collective bargaining. I think in bad times management is alwaya prepared to show the books, but during good times this may not always be the case. And sometimes management makes unilateral announcement on schemes which affect the welfare and interest of workers without keeping the unions adequately informed. This makes our union leaders unhappy because it undermines their credibility.

Sir, in a competitive world, we understand that managements have to re-organise or restructure their companies or part of their operations. However, if this is done without keeping the unions and employees informed, they are kept in the dark about the company's intentions and this creates unnecessary fears. It affects the morale of the workers. They lose confidence and trust in the management. Productivity is also affected. We understand that there may be reasons to keep certain information of the company's plans and strategies confidential for fear that they may get into the wrong hands, or into the competitor's hands.

Sir, however, if there is general understanding between management and labour, that unions and employees will be kept adequately informed whenever appropriate or whenever possible, I think this will be an assurance that their welfare will be adequately safeguarded.

Sir, I believe that the Ministry of Labour can perhaps play a vital role here. One way is to organise regular meetings between labour and management groups to discuss issues, which can have a negative impact on labour-management cooperation. In this way, we can always look at these issues, how to tackle them positively, and how we can help strengthen labour-management cooperation.

I hope that the Minister could comment on this.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, I agree with Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe that management should be more willing to share information with their workers. This will help to build up mutual trust and confidence between management and workers, leading to industrial harmony and higher productivity.

As we know, many companies now have flexible wage systems which reward workers according to company and individual performance. To a certain extent, therefore, the workers are now co-owners of the company, as it were. They can be better motivated if they are kept informed about their company's performance so that they can better contribute to its success.

At the same time, however, our workers and unions should also demonstrate to the employers their maturity and prudence in handling information given to them.

In certain situations, for example, when there is going to be a retrenchment forthcoming, I think it is understandable that the management will be very careful about releasing information prematurely. But I think to avoid speculation and loss of productivity, as soon as plans are firmed up, they should let the workers know early, so that they can make their own arrangements.

Encik Othman also suggested that the Ministry should organise more forums where all three parties can exchange views. I think this is something we can consider.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I would like to speak now on retirement age. I would like to ask the Minister to give a status report of the progress made in the non-unionised sector to raise retirement age. I do not have to stress that it is unfair to retire workers at 55 years when these workers are still healthy; when they are productive and are prepared to continue in employment.

The three-year deadline which the Minister gave in 1988 to employers to raise the retirement age of their employees beyond 55 years will expire soon. I would like to ask whether the Minister is ready now to introduce legislation to raise the retirement age, particularly if the response to the calls to raise retirement age is still poor and employers are dragging their feet.

Sir, we must help our workers who remain healthy to continue working as long as possible. Here I think workers on their part also realise that in order to continue to be employable, they would have to go for training and re-training, and to ensure that they have skills that are relevant to the needs of the economy. However, while workers are making attempts to receive training wherever possible, the employers must also be ready to employ these workers who are able to work, and if they are not ready or are dragging their feet, then I think we need legislation to raise retirement age. 1.00 pm

Mr Lau Ping Sum (Yio Chu Kang): ( In Mandarin): Mr Chairman, since 1987, when the Government, the employers and the unions decided that the retirement age should be raised to 60, progress has not been entirely satisfactory. In October last year, the Minister for Labour said at a meeting that in the case of unionised companies, the progress had been quite all right, about 70% had done this. But for those non-unionised companies, only about 25% of them had done so. The others have been dragging their feet. I would like to know the latest progress.

According to the Straits Times of 19th January, 1991, the main laggards are printing firms, airlines, shipping companies and chemical industries. Some companies insist that the extension of employment beyond 55 must be subject to the condition of satisfactory performance. However, the unions believe that this could be very subjective. In 1989, a National Productivity Board survey showed that the training of workers above the age of 40 had been neglected. Only 7% of the SDF funds was spent in the training of workers above the age of 40. Many workers are not English-educated and they have not taken part in any training courses. 94% of semi-skilled or unskilled workers have never gone for any training at all. I would therefore support the view of Mrs Yu-Foo that we must provide training in the language that they are conversant in.

In an economy where there is full employment, there is a need to extend the retirement age. We know that life expectancy in Singapore has increased to 73, so most workers aged between 55 and 60 are still healthy. I believe they can still make their contribution to society and the country for a few more years. Most developed countries have a retirement age of 60 or 65, even Taiwan has raised the retirement age to 65.

Mr Chairman, for those who do not wish to work full-time, perhaps part-time or flexi-time work could be encouraged to tap the resources of such manpower. I feel that the Ministry of Labour should place greater emphasis on helping the older unemployed workers to look for jobs. In June 1990, the National Employers' Conference recommended a number of measures to further develop part-time employment and to make part-time employment work a regular feature of a company's work arrangement. Wages and benefits should be worked out in proportion to those of full-time employees, including training to be given and other benefits. The employer should also review the policy of recruiting part-time workers. I would like to ask the Minister for Labour whether legislation could be introduced in the near future to raise the retirement age.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, I wish to thank the Members for raising this issue as it gives me the opportunity to make a status report on the progress made so far and also to clarify my thinking on this matter.

I am happy to report that substantial progress has been made in the unionised sector. Thanks to the understanding of the employers and the help of the trade unions which have been pressing for the raising of the retirement age. In 1990, out of 362 collective agreements signed, 65% of them stipulated retirement age at 60 years or beyond, and another 10% at between ages 55 to 59, making a total of 75%. In the first two months of this year, the figures were 66% and 14% respectively, making a total of 80%. I am, however, disappointed with the response of the non-unionised sector. Even among the larger companies in this sector, only about one quarter has a retirement age of 60.

When the President opened the Parliamentary Session in January 1988, he mentioned a three-year time frame during which we hope the employers will voluntarily raise the retirement age. So this three-year time frame is coming to a close very soon, by the end of this year. Therefore, my Ministry is closely monitoring the situation and by the end of this year, we will have to make up our minds whether we should in fact go forward and legislate. The preferred approach is not to legislate because it would tend to be rather inflexible. However, I am not optimistic that most employers in the non-unionised sector will voluntarily raise their retirement age. I do not know the reasons, but maybe they are just dragging their feet, or there could be other reasons.

I have, therefore, instructed my officers to study the possible forms of legislation taking into account the experience of other countries. As there is still some time left until the end of this year, I would like to call on all employers not to delay any further. Everybody is agreed that there is a need to raise the retirement age in view of our labour shortage, and in view of the good health of our workers. So there is no reason to delay any further.

A problem with the voluntary approach is that many Singaporeans are employed in small firms without union representation. There are no collective agreements and sometimes not even written contracts of employment. So if we do not legislate, how do we ensure that these Singaporean workers also enjoy the benefit of a higher retirement age of 60? Do we not need a labour standard on retirement age which allows for exemption only in very special cases? My Ministry is studying this matter.

Mr Lim Boon Heng: Sir, I turn now to the subject of foreign workers.

When this House considered the estimates of the Ministry of Trade and Industry, it was announced that the Government was studying ways of letting employers hire more foreign workers. In particular, a two-tier levy system with a higher levy for companies hiring workers above the present limit of 40% may be introduced. There is also the possibility of a quota system, similar to the car quota system.

In my opinion, the two-tier system will not be effective in placing a cap on the maximum number of foreign workers that will be allowed in. The quota system will allow us to control the number of foreign workers more effectively. Some will say that the bigger companies with stronger finances will outbid small companies if we go into such a system. But it may be possible to divide companies into different categories, just as we have classified cars by engine sizes. Each company should be allowed up to, say, 30% dependency on foreign workers, paying the levy set by Government. If they wish to employ more, they should tender for it, paying the price set by the market.

Sir, I cannot emphasise the need to control the number of foreign workers. Apart from the social problems that will arise with too large a number of foreign workers, an unrestrained inflow of foreign workers will depress wage levels, especially those at the lower end. This causes hardship to our low-income workers and retard progress in the upgrading of industry.

I am sad that the debate on the subject of income distribution in the House these few days has centred on the accuracy of data rather than on the substantive points that the Member for Boon Lay sought to put across. The point is that the wage gap appears to have widened if we are to believe Government statistics. One relevant indicator is the comparison between the increase in median wage and the average wage in the past decade. The median wage rose by 87% between 1980 and 1989, whereas the average wage rose by 106%. So this shows that wages at the higher end have risen faster than the lower-end wages. Another interpretation we can give is that any increase in wages it is the upper end that has greater effect on total cost rather than those at the lower end. And that I think is the point which the Member for Boon Lay sought to put across.

On CPF data, I have every reason to believe that the CPF data is accurate. As at December 1990, it did indicate that we do have a significant number of low-income workers. Whilst the CPF data does include part-time workers and students on vacation jobs, it is not distorted by the inclusion of national servicemen and foreign workers. The data which I have received shows that 12% of just over a million workers, draw less than $500 per month. This may give a more balanced picture of the earnings of Singapore workers. Coming back to Mr Goh's point, what he sought to stress then was that we should not be so flexible in allowing foreign workers to the extent that it will affect the income of lower-income workers.

Sir, Mr Goh has, in the past 10 years, fought for workers. I think he has done more than his part. For example, in the area of upgrading of skills, he was responsible for launching the BEST programme and, today, he still oversees that programme. He has urged employers to train and to make better use of local workers, rather than to depend so much on foreign workers. I think that the rebuke which he received in the newspaper columns and in this House had not been justified. And in my opinion, there has been no abuse of parliamentary privilege.

The Chairman: Order. I might want to add that, in fairness to the Member for Boon Lay, any allusion to him having abused his privileges yesterday was unfounded as there was nothing in what he said that would have constituted an abuse of his privileges. The Member was on occasions out of order and I had ruled accordingly, but it must be made clear to the House that a Member who is out of order is not necessarily in abuse of his privileges.

Encik Othman bin Haron Eusofe: Sir, I just want to ask the Minister one assurance and, that is, whenever we allow more foreign workers in to ease the tight labour market, careful consideration will be given to ensure that the move will not depress the wages of Singapore workers. We do not want to be so flexible, so liberal, and inadvertently allow the wage gap to widen. 1.15 pm

Mr Lau Ping Sum: ( In Mandarin): Sir, on the question of foreign workers. During the Meet-the-People sessions, MPs frequently receive requests from the constituents for assistance in applying for work permits for foreign workers. These small businesses, such as beauty salons, car repair workshops and restaurants, are having immense difficulties in recruiting Singaporean workers who find such jobs unattractive, for the reasons of long working hours and the nature of the work which is physically demanding. Few Singaporean workers would like to do such jobs. Even for the small number of Singaporean workers they managed to recruit, they tend to leave at the first available opportunity. So these people have no choice but to approach the MPs during the Meet-the-People sessions for assistance.

When we write to the Ministry of Labour, the reply is invariably, "No, that cannot be done." I know the Minister for Labour is a caring and sympathetic person, but in view of the prevailing policy there is nothing much that he can do. Of course, we have also heard our labour MPs saying that the number of foreign workers should be put under strict control for social and economic reasons.

Let us take a look at Western Europe where they have a large number of foreign workers who have brought about social problems. Economically, the presence of a large number of foreign workers has led to the lowering of the wage level of their own workers. This is a fact which cannot be denied.

We note that recruiting foreign workers is not a long-term solution. However, pending a better solution and during the transitional period, are we not being too impatient in enforcing the control? Many of these small businesses are indeed facing great difficulties.

I remember the Deputy Prime Minister BG Lee Hsien Loong once commented that in his constituency there were more beauty salons than beauties. I have been to his constituency but there did not seem to be that many beauty salons. There are tens of thousands of people in his constituency. Surely there must be a good number of beauties around. Perhaps his standard of "beauty" is set at a very high level.

He suggested that the small beauty salons should be merged in order to pool their resources and install more modern equipment. But we know that when ladies go to have their hair permed, they would prefer to go back to the same beauty salon, and even get the same hairdresser to attend to them. So when you merge these small salons, it would not be an ideal solution. We should allow small business establishments to exist as they provide a very useful service to the residents at low cost, thus ensuring that the cost of living does not rise too rapidly.

At the same time, the operators of these small beauty salons and restaurants need to earn a living. They have their families to support. Of course, in the long run, we cannot expect the Ministry of Labour to accommodate a large number of foreign workers in Singapore. But I feel some flexibility should be exercised in enforcing the control mechanism.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, my Ministry and the Ministry of Trade and Industry are studying how to adjust the work permit control mechanisms to make them more effective, flexible and market related. The overall policy, however, remains the same, ie, to have a revolving pool of foreign workers within carefully controlled limits bearing in mind their long-term economic and social costs. The study will take into consideration the different factors and the different sources of workers.

I am not sure whether we will be able to differentiate by size, maybe to some extent, because it is not always true that the small employers will be outbidded by the big employers. If the small employers are catering only for the domestic captive market and are not faced with international competition, it may turn out that they are better able to afford a higher premium for the one or two workers that they need. Anyway, we will study this.

As mentioned, for example, for the manufacturing sector, one refinement is to have a lower dependency ceiling of, say, 35% instead of the present 40%. So below this 35% ceiling, the levy will be a flat levy set by the Government. If employers need to exceed this limit, they may have to tender for a certificate to hire more foreign workers. The successful bidders will have to pay a front-end premium for a 2-year certificate in addition to the set levy which is payable monthly. The certificate will entitle the holder to the additional work permit. It will not be tied to the foreign worker who may resign or change jobs. So it is a certificate for a permit. It is not a certificate for a worker.

It has been suggested that the premium for the additional workers can perhaps be set by the Government as well. As mentioned by Mr Lim, I think this system will have the same problem of inflexibility as in the present system that we are having today. The Government will have to guess at what the second level of levies should be. Again, it will be difficult to adjust this level frequently as the market changes. In addition, if you have this two-levy system both at flat rates, what will happen is that there will be more companies, which are already very dependent, getting even more dependent and you cannot really control the numbers in that way. So if you want to try and cap the numbers at some acceptable level, then the best way would be to do it by a tender system, similar to what has been done for motor cars.

The car tendering system has proven to be effective, even though there were some initial reservations and unhappiness amongst the public. Members are aware that during the Gulf crisis, the premiums had really come down to a rock bottom level. I think this reflects the market situation. When the market is high, people are willing to pay more. For example, in a tight labour market, if there are more people who think they can make money by having more foreign workers and are willing to pay, then the levy will go up. Conversely, if the market is depressed, then the premiums will come down and correspondingly even the base levy may have to be adjusted.

If you have this kind of system of a flat levy up to a certain level and beyond that you tender, what happens is that for employers who need fewer foreign workers, say, below the 35% level, they are assured of a stable core of workers. I think this is very important because they have to plan their production and so on. So we must make sure that the employers have a certain workforce which they can depend upon. But beyond that, as business fluctuates, then perhaps they can bid for the workers. Or alternatively, they can buy the certificates from a secondary market. I think it would be necessary to make the certificates transferable. For example, the employer may find suddenly that he does not need so many workers any more. So he should be able to transfer the certificate to another employer. Or in another situation, the employee may have resigned, in which case the employer either gets a refund or he sells the certificate to somebody else.

I would like to take this opportunity to comment on some of the suggestions from Mr Chew Heng Ching and other Members on this issue. I agree with Mr Chew that the work permit control should be kept as simple as possible, both to understand and to administer. However, a multi-tier system which he proposed will make the system even more complicated, because it is extremely difficult to monitor and keep up with the changes in the dependency levels as the workforce changes. So if we have a multi-tier system, it is going to be almost impossible to administer.

I would also like to avoid a system where different individual workers in the same firm or industry are subject to different levies depending on when they are employed. It is better that all foreign workers in the same industry be subject to the same prevailing levies. But for additional permits above the first tier, a lump-sum premium is payable front end. If we allow the levy to be fixed for the duration of the 2-year permit, the employer is shielded from levy adjustments which the market may require. It would then mean that larger adjustments of the levy will be necessary for new work permits.

Our labour shortage problem will not go away. Whilst we can refine our control mechanisms, we must be mindful that there has to be a limit to the number of foreign workers we can admit. As a small country, we are faced with resource constraints, especially land and labour. Through selective immigration, we can top up our population to a certain extent. However, our long-term sustainable growth rate domestically is 4-6% per annum. If we try and expand more than that within Singapore itself, the result has to be overheating of the economy. The only way forward is to upgrade and restructure our economy and to carry out the lower value-added and more labour- intensive operations overseas.

I agree fully with Mr Lim Boon Heng and Encik Othman that we should be very careful in controlling the number of work permits. If we are too liberal, then the result would be to depress our local wages. And also in the long term, we will be incurring a lot of social costs as seen from experience of the more developed countries like Germany.

Mr Lau Ping Sum touched on the problems of small local employers. I wish to clarify that my Ministry has in fact been more accommodating in processing work permit applications from small local businesses, such as hair-dressing salons and motor repair shops. Although the dependency ceiling is 20% for such service employers, we have allowed very small operators with fewer than five workers to exceed the 20% limit. One problem with many of these small employers is that they do not pay CPF for their local workers. So we are therefore unable to verify whether they have in fact so many local workers as they claim. If they want to have foreign workers, they should pay CPF for their local workers and show us that they in fact have so many workers and then we can accommodate their request.

During the debate on the budget policy, some Members asked why it is necessary to have both a dependency ceiling as well as the foreign worker levy. The levy is intended to raise the cost of employing a foreign worker to at least that of an equivalent local worker. Otherwise, employers will find it more profitable to employ foreign workers and local wages will be depressed. The ready availability of low-cost foreign labour will also retard the upgrading of our economy. On the other hand, we would like to attract skilled foreign workers. Those who are qualified or skilled are given 3-year work permits and placed on the CPF scheme where no levy is payable. For skilled construction workers, the levy has also been set at a lower rate. The dependency ceiling is necessary, on the other hand, because we need to prevent employers from becoming overly dependent on foreign workers. Beyond a certain limit, it is doubtful whether such operations should continue to be carried out in Singapore and even to expand, based on more and more imported workers.

Mr Lim Boon Heng: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. 1.30 pm

Mr Lim Boon Heng: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Code SD 1500 of the Main Estimates.

Workers have the right of association. They can form unions and the Industrial Relations Act protects this right. The Act, however, separates managers and executives from rank and file workers. Rank and file workers can form their own union. Managers and executives can also form their own union. The Industrial Relations Act forbids them to join the same union. In fact, section 16(3) of the Industrial Relations Act states:

'No trade union of employees, the majority of whose membership consists of employees in non-managerial or non-executive positions, may seek recognition in respect of employees in managerial or executive positions or serve a notice under section 17 in respect of those employees.'

This section and other sections of the Act clearly preclude a union from representing both categories of employees. But at the same time, there is also no clear definition of the terms "managerial" and "executive". These provisions may have been appropriate in the 1960s. But today teamwork at the workplace is an asset that gives the company that extra edge in competitiveness.

Since the Act clearly allows workers to form and join unions, including those in managerial and executive positions, and we are striving for that extra edge in competitiveness, we should amend the law to allow them to join the same union.

The Ministry of Labour has already exercised its discretion to allow employees of both categories to join the same house union. So far, the experience has been good. For example, it has not been found to have caused problems of disciplining employees within the same company.

So I think it is time now to amend the Industrial Relations Act to allow both categories of employees to join the same union.

Encik Abbas Abu Amin (Pasir Panjang GRC): Sir, Singapore has enjoyed excellent industrial relations for many years. The contributions of trade unions towards maintaining industrial peace have been significant. In this regard, therefore, there is a need to ensure that the labour movement continues to be led by capable and good leaders.

We have lost several good union officials when they were promoted to supervisory or managerial levels. I know only a few companies which have allowed their employees to continue to serve as branch officials when they were promoted.

Sir, in the absence of a clear definition in their law or in the Act on who are considered "executives", disputes will continue to arise between union and management. This is not conducive to good industrial relations. A clear definition is therefore necessary.

I support the proposal to amend the Act to extend the scope of representation.

Mr Goh Chee Wee (Boon Lay): Sir, for quite some time, NTUC has been calling on the Government to amend the legislation to allow the rank and file unions to represent the supervisors and the executives, especially the junior executives. My colleague, Mr Lim Boon Heng, has adequately argued for the case a moment ago. So has Encik Abbas. Therefore, I do not intend to repeat the argument. I just hope the Minister would reply positively to the suggestion to amend the legislation to extend the scope of union representation.

The other point I wish to raise is regarding the eligibility age for joining a trade union. Currently, a person can join a trade union only when he reaches the age of 18. But our law actually allows people to work in any establishment when he is 16 years of age. So we have a situation where a person can be employed to work, but not allowed to join a trade union. This, to me, is an anomaly. So I suggest that the legislation be amended to lower the minimum age for union membership to 16.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, the labour MPs who have spoken have all asked that the Government should amend the legislation to allow the executives to join the same union as rank and file workers. This issue has received wide coverage in the papers.

I think there are a number of reasons for this call. One reason is that some employers have given executive titles to workers when they are not really performing the roles of executives or managers. These are so-called "bogus" executive titles. Another reason is that the unions need able and qualified leaders.

I would first like to address the issue of "bogus" executive titles. I think there is no need to change the law to deal with this problem. My Ministry can help to conciliate and decide whether certain groups should be allowed to join unions or not, depending on their job responsibilities, not just the title alone. If that is not enough, both the employer and the union can refer the issue to the Industrial Arbitration Court under section 16(4) of the Industrial Relations Act to obtain a determination from the court. The court in its deliberation has to take into consideration not only the title but also the nature of the job, and whether allowing these so-called executives to join unions would lead to conflict of interest.

The other issue of union leadership is, to my mind, a more fundamental and basic one. The question is whether we should allow employees with supervisory or junior executive functions to join unions to help provide leadership and better links with management. I share the view that the unions do require good and capable leaders. One way is, of course, for them to become Members of Parliament and then through working with the unions and getting their acceptance by the rank and file, to eventually be the trade union leaders, as we find them here today. The other way is to have better leaders coming up through the rank and file.

Judging from the experience of house unions, I think the fear of employers that allowing, say, some supervisors or junior executives to join unions would lead to conflict of interest may not be founded in some cases. So there could perhaps be some room for flexibility for first-line supervisors and maybe even junior executives to join the same union as the rank and file workers if they wish to, and if the employers are agreeable.

I am not so sure that there is a need to amend the law here, if we are more pragmatic in how we look at section 16(3), as we have done for house unions. Maybe we can all study the problem and try and decide on certain guidelines before we decide whether we should amend the law. As I said, I am in favour of giving the unions better leadership. And if you exclude all the supervisors and foremen, and so on, then what you are left with will be just the lower level workers. But whether it is necessary to change the law, that is something we have to study further. I understand that both the NTUC and the Singapore National Employers Federation (SNEF) are currently discussing this problem, and my Ministry is happy to assist and come out with some guidelines.

On the point of eligibility age for union membership raised by Mr Goh Chee Wee, the minimum age for union membership in the Trade Unions Act, section 28, was set at 18 years in the early years when left-wing organisations were using unions for their united front activities. Being more impressionistic, young workers could be easily misled by slogan-shouting leaders into supporting undesirable objectives and activities that may not be in their interests nor that of the nation. However, the character of our trade union movement has changed and our union leaders are committed to the preservation of harmonious labour-management relations. I therefore agree with the Member that we should now review this provision and I will ask my officers to look into it. Lowering the age limit will enable more young workers to benefit from union membership.

Mr Lim Boon Heng: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (3), Dr Koh Lam Son is not here. Amendment No. (4), Encik Abbas.

Encik Abbas Abu Amin: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head S be reduced by $10 in respect of Code SL 1500 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, as we take our stride into the 1990s and aim to have a productive and skilled workforce, I would like to emphasise that we should correspondingly ensure and enhance a safe and conducive working environment in our offices and factories for our workers. The occupational health and safety of the workers is of paramount importance and must be given due attention. I am pleased to note that the number of industrial accidents has been reduced to a minimum in recent years.

I understand that some companies and Government bodies have formed recreational and sports clubs in their organisations. Sports and health enhancement programmes at workplaces will not only help to improve the fitness of our workers but they will also boost their morale and invariably lead to improved inter-personal relationships and create a more conducive working environment. In addition, recreational amenities, like canteens, child-care facilities, and fitness centres should be built for the welfare of the workers when the companies can afford to do so. I should be greatly grateful if the Minister could assist in urging more companies to provide such facilities for the welfare and well-being of their employees.

Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon (Yuhua): Sir, I would like to touch on the subject of occupational health and safety at the workplace.

Under the Factories (Safety Committee) Regulations introduced in 1975, any factory employing 50 and more workers is required to set up a safety committee. The Regulations also stipulate the functions and duties of the committees.

As we are trying to promote self-regulation in occupational health and safety, I agree that it is a better approach. This self-regulation requires the company to develop and practise a safety system that can be self-regulated. It is also aimed at encouraging workers and management to work collectively towards the promotion of occupational health and safety at their workplace. However, I would like to know how the Labour Ministry monitors the performance of the safety committees.

The other question that I am asking is related to safety in confined space work. Lately, there have been some accidents involving workers in confined space. It is thus commendable that the Ministry of Labour has decided to expand the coverage of the Factories Act to protect the safety of workers working in manholes and trenches. The provision will be a deterrent to employers who take the safety of their workers lightly.

I would like to ask the Minister for Labour how soon will the Factories Act be amended, and how will this newly introduced provision be enforced. 1.45 pm

Mr Choo Wee Khiang (Marine Parade GRC): Sir, in Singapore the health of the working population is an important consideration for several reasons. First, the workplace constitutes a large segment of the total working population, approximately 1.3 million. Second, working conditions have a direct as well as indirect influence on health. Third, the health of the working population has a direct impact on the productivity and efficiency of the workforce. Fourth, often the problem of environmental pollution is a direct result of poor industrial hygiene practices due to lack of effective occupational health services.

For these reasons, Sir, an effective occupational health service becomes important and relevant. Unfortunately, we do not have an occupational health service as defined today. What we have is the remnant of our colonial heritage whereby occupational health service is largely governed by the Factories Act, but the Factories Act covers only 25% of the total working population in Singapore.

It is for this reason, Sir, that most industrialised nations of the world today understand occupational health as the provision of health care to all persons at work, and not merely to those in factories. Therefore, the thrust of modern occupational health services is the need to develop a national system of health care services for all persons at work. Here, Sir, I would like to make the following developmental proposals for occupational health services. The first proposal is that the Government should consider the setting up of a national occupational health advisory council under the Ministry of Labour with representations from the Ministry of Health and other relevant parties, namely, unions, employers, and medical associations. Second, establish the principle that emphasis be placed on the preventive component of occupational health services for all persons at work. Third, the Ministry of Health accepts formal responsibility for policy development for the provision of occupational health services. An inter-ministerial committee between the Ministry of Health and Ministry of Labour be set up to coordinate activities. Fourth, each of the polyclinics in Singapore should have at least one medical officer trained in occupational health. Fifth, there is a need to train general practitioners in occupational health because a considerable saving can be effected by incorporating preventive occupational health services to the current task undertaken by the general practitioners. To achieve these objectives, it is necessary that the general practitioners be trained in occupational health. A scheme is therefore required to be developed whereby general practitioners are encouraged to take time off to undergo training in occupational health. A possibility is the use of the Skills Development Fund for this particular purpose. Lastly, in Singapore at present, there exist a number of specialists trained and interested in occupational health. These specialists can be used as referral points for the occupational health services provided at the primary care level.

Sir, providing health care for the working population is particularly important for Singapore as a NIC. Singapore has the expertise and all that is required. It is some reorganisation, support and recognition of the problem.

May I have the Minister's comments?

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, first, concerning the comments by Encik Abbas, I fully agree with him that it is very important for companies to show their care and concern for their workers. One way to do so is of course to provide better amenities for the workers. In fact, some of the large employers which are able to afford it are already doing so, not only in the private sector but also some of the larger Government Ministries and departments, statutory boards, and so on. In addition, our workers also have access to the NTUC facilities. So on the whole, I think our workers are well catered for in the area of recreation. But the important point is that we should not take industrial peace and harmony for granted, and both parties should work constantly at ensuring this through various means.

Next, I would like to respond to Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon who has asked two questions. One is concerning the safety committees. In Singapore, the companies which employ more than 50 workers have to establish safety committees. Our records show that about 90-plus per cent of companies in fact do have safety committees and they are operating, having meetings regularly, and so on. For the remainder, which are mostly new companies, my Ministry is working with them to try and help them to establish proper committees and to go about their jobs.

We make sure that the committees are functioning by having our inspectors go round, not only to check on the safety of the factories but also to check their records, whether they have been meeting regularly, whether they have been following up on suggestions and so on. In fact, if companies have been inactive or have neglected this aspect of their work, then a fine can be imposed, and we have done so in some cases.

The other issue concerns safety in manholes. Members may be aware that recently my Ministry decided that we should extend the scope of the Factories Act to cover also the safety of workers who have to work in manholes, for example, Ministry of Environment projects and so on. Over the last 14 years, there have been 22 incidents of workers who were overcome by fumes and other problems when they were working in manholes. This works out to an average of about one and a half cases a year. In these incidents, nine workers were killed. Fortunately, in the other cases, the workers recovered.

We have to set priorities, and so far the priority of the Ministry has been to look after the areas which are very hazardous, for example, construction sites and the shipyards. But now that the problems there have improved, we feel that we should divert our resources partially to the other areas, and that is the reason that we are now doing this.

With the coverage extended through an order, there is no need to amend the law. We can just make an order to extend it. The workers will then have to be trained. There will have to be proper precautions, for example, testing to see whether there are poisonous gases in the manholes and proper use of gas masks and so on.

If the employers do not take the necessary precautions, and as a result some workers are killed, then the employer will be fined up to $25,000 and/or jailed up to one year. But the main thing is not so much the punitive element but the fact that we want to make clear to the employers that they should look after the safety of their workers. We will also be having an orientation programme for workers who are involved in this field. I expect this new order to be made soon, and to bring it into effect on 1st May.

Finally, I would like to deal with the points raised by Mr Choo Wee Khiang. Listening to him I got the impression, although probably unintended, that he felt that our industrial health services have been fossilised since the colonial times. I can assure him that this is not so. In fact, our officers have been keeping up with the times in terms of looking after workers exposed to the different kinds of hazards as our economy restructures and upgrades.

The tendency, in fact, is for the working environment to become safer with the passage of time. For example, in the field of industrial health, the most common problems are noise-induced deafness and industrial dermatitis. The other hazards like exposure to poisons are in fact very few. My Ministry has already set up a system, for example, of designated factory doctors to train doctors not only to diagnose and cure cases of workers who have incurred illnesses arising from hazards at the workplace but also to know how to advise the employers on what kind of precautions to take. So in this field, I think the coverage is already fairly good and we have been working with the Ministry of Health. We have qualified doctors but at the same time we also check with the Ministry of Health, and we do work closely with them.

I think the problem is well in hand but I would, nevertheless, ask my officers to study his speech more carefully, and where there are ideas which we can adopt, we will certainly do so.

Encik Abbas Abu Amin: Sir, I thank the Minister for his reply and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $30,208,500 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $3,585,000 for Head S ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head O -

The Chairman: Head O - Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Mr Ng Pock Too.

Mr Ng Pock Too (Nee Soon Central): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head O of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Because trade friction can become touchy foreign policy issues in the future for Singapore, I have decided to raise this matter under regional economic groupings.

The Uruguay Round of GATT, the mechanism to dismantle barriers to world trade, has been stalled over the bitter issue of farm subsidies and the subsidies code. This failure in GATT negotiations will now make it much more difficult for the GATT system to adapt to the changing nature of global trade. But, worse still, the failure to keep vibrant, a multilateral trading framework, will accelerate regionalism and bilateralism. These are trends that will impede the economic growth potential of countries that depend on global strategies. They are also trends that will gradually limit these countries free access to world markets through trade restrictions such as anti-dumping laws, countervailing duties and non-tariff barriers.

Regionalism is on the fast track in Europe and North America. Europe is no longer talking of EC 92. If the Single European Market (SEM) is unified on schedule and without any hindrance, then from 1st January 1993, the combined markets of the European Community consisting of Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and the UK, and EFTA (European Free Trade Area) consisting of Austria, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland, will integrate into one huge European market with common rules for cross border trade, banking, insurance, product standards and environmental protection. 2.00 pm

North America now has the US/Canada Free Trade Agreement which will eliminate all tariffs between the two countries over a period of 10 years. The idea of creating a North American free trade area encompassing the United States, Mexico and Canada is gaining momentum. Latin American and US links will increase in line with their historical and investment patterns. There is every likelihood that North and South America will form a hemispheric free trade area along the lines envisioned in President Bush's "Enterprise for the Americas" initiative.

The Asia-Pacific region has also seen a proliferation of regional economic groupings: ASEAN, APEC, the Growth Triangle, and now the East Asian Economic Grouping (EAEG), although they are not trading blocs in the same sense as the Single European Market and the US/Canada Free Trade Agreement. Singapore is an active participant in regional cooperation in all these regional groupings. However, the formation of regional economic groupings must not lead to more inward-looking economic policies. The objective must be to preserve the open multilateral system for international trade in goods and services following GATT rules so that the Asia-Pacific region as a whole can contribute to the prosperity of the world economy. Singapore is a global city with an open economy. We cannot afford to tie our economic links only to one particular regional economic group. I would like to ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs how will our global outlook be reconciled with the trend towards regionalism. Can we be global as well as regional?

Encik Wan Hussin bin Haji Zoohri (Aljunied GRC): Sir, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has stated in the Presidential Addendum that they will take on new objectives. It will also prepare itself to meet new challenges and demands in the international scene. In fact, Sir, Singapore has already demonstrated its ability to perform these new roles when Singapore participated in the Namibia peace-keeping effort and the sending of a rescue mission after the Philippines earthquake, and again we have just successfully completed sending a medical contingent to Riyadh during the Gulf War. May I ask the Minister if he could elaborate on what new areas and opportunities open to us which would help enhance our international profile?

One area which comes to mind and which has this potential is our role in promoting economic cooperation in the Asia-Pacific region through APEC and the East Asian Economic Grouping. The other is, of course, our active participation in the United Nations and its agencies. However, Sir, there is one other area which I hope the Minister will consider when taking on this higher profile in international obligations. This is in regard to our participation in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA). Many of our hon. Members have attended CPA Conferences overseas as guests of the host nation. Perhaps, it is time that we held a CPA Conference in Singapore instead. We have the resources and experience in holding such international conferences. I am sure that the goodwill generated and the intangible benefits derived will further enhance our standing and stature in the international scene.

Dr Ong Chit Chung (Bukit Batok): Sir, as we develop and prosper, we must dispel any notion that we are self-centred and ugly Singaporeans. That I am sure we are not. I therefore welcome the despatch of our medical teams to the Philippines and the Middle East, and the sending of English Language teachers to Indonesia.

Sir, we should have a higher profile in international affairs and leave no stone unturned in our efforts to enhance our image overseas. I therefore hope that the Singapore International Foundation will, besides forming Singapore clubs overseas, help to send young Singaporean volunteers to work in our neighbouring countries as teachers, doctors, nurses, and specialists in various fields. We can here draw upon the experience of the American Peace Corps or the British Volunteer Service Overseas.

We can also enlist those who have retired from business or the professions to serve overseas as consultants or advisors. Our message to our neighbours is that they have a stake and a share in our prosperity and that we are all partners in progress in this region.

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): Sir, a number of ASEAN governments have diplomatic relations with Vietnam. Additionally, some of them have signed economic, trade and investment agreements with Hanoi. The UN Security Council and other ASEAN states are actively pursuing the UN peace plan to settle the Cambodian conflict. Then there is the general relaxation of tension in the Asia-Pacific region.

Sir, in view of this and other developments, I would like to ask the Minister whether he has any plan to establish diplomatic relations with Vietnam in the near future, and if not, why not.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Sir, I wish to refer to two issues, the Gulf War and Vietnam. Singapore is supposed to be a non-aligned country. At least so claims the PAP Government. But what our Ministers have done on the two issues of the Gulf War and Vietnam show that we are far from being non-aligned.

Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, most of the people in Singapore were in sympathy with Kuwait. Singapore Government's position was clear. We rightly opposed the invasion of a sovereign country by a bigger power. But our Ministers had also made rather partisan statements as if we were a participant in the conflict itself. I believe that to be rather unwise. We expressed statements quite different from those expressed by Malaysia and Indonesia. Rightly or wrongly, a vast majority of the Muslim people in Malaysia, Indonesia and in Singapore itself were in sympathy with Iraq after the US sent its army to Saudi Arabia.

In the circumstances, for Singapore to make statements which could be interpreted as partisan could strain relations with the Muslim population in Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia. That would not help to promote friendly relations with our neighbours, or peace and tranquillity in Singapore and South-east Asia. As often emphasised by our Government Ministers, we are a multi-racial, multi-religious society. We live in the midst of a Muslim world in South-east Asia. I believe that our Ministers should always bear this in mind and be more circumspect in their statements to the press in future.

I must also ask what our present position is as regards Vietnam? Dr Lau has mentioned a little about Vietnam. Mine is on a slightly different strain. In past years, our Government has issued stern warnings to Singaporean businessmen who invested in Vietnam. They were warned to get the investments out even if they had already invested in Vietnam. I consider this also to be rather unwise. We may support the Cambodian opposition against Vietnam which is on the side of Phnom Penh. But as we are a non-participant in the civil war in Cambodia, and as we are a country that depends on business for our survival (and we are presently promoting business investments overseas) such strong action against our own businessmen is in fact working against our own national interests. When other countries in Asia, like Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, have long invested in Vietnam and other countries of the EEC, Japan and now the US are all doing the same, I do not see why Singapore should adopt such a policy that harms our own businessmen. As a non-aligned country, we should be doing business with every country, whatever its colour. We do business with China long, long ago and with the Soviet Union too. Why not with Vietnam?

By the way, Sir, before I end, would the Minister also inform the House whether we have given any material support to the Cambodian Opposition against the Phnom Penh Government?

Mr Charles Chong (Sembawang GRC): Sir, I have just three issues to raise with the Minister. Elaboration has already been given on some of these issues by the speakers before me and I do not intend to elaborate further.

Firstly, with economic considerations now replacing ideology as the main basis influencing foreign policy in an increasing number of countries, will Singapore, as a matter of policy, now strive to forge links with all countries regardless of their ideology and the type of government? Secondly, could the Minister let us know what policy his Ministry will be adopting in increasing our overseas links and representations, especially in new areas of the world that could have potential economic and political interest to Singapore? Does the Ministry of Foreign Affairs also intend to encourage the hosting of more international economic and political conferences in Singapore, in addition to just sending representatives to overseas conferences?

Finally, Sir, we have seen in recent times, the emergence of regional and international economic groupings, such as APEC, East Asian Economic Grouping, and others already mentioned by the Chairman of the GPC for Defence and Foreign Affairs. Singapore appears to be interested in linking up with some of these groupings. Could the Minister tell us what are the implications for Singapore in joining any or all of these groupings and how do we intend to manage possible inter-group conflicts in the future?

The Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Mr Chairman, Sir, before I reply, may I say that I share your view expressed earlier on that any allusion to Mr Goh Chee Wee having breached parliamentary privileges is unfounded. If Mr Goh had actually breached parliamentary privileges there is no doubt that the Committee of Privileges would be convened to look into the complaint against him. But the reason why I had to remind the House yesterday was to ask Members to stay within the confines given to them under the Parliament (Privileges, Immunities and Powers) Act.

Mr Chairman, Sir, the momentous development in Europe which heralded the end of the Cold War created an atmosphere of hope in the world. That hope was cruelly shattered by the brutal Iraqi invasion of Kuwait on 2nd August last year. The multi-national coalition force of 30 nations supported by a great majority of UN members succeeded in reversing Iraqi invasion. This success has restored the earlier hopes and signalled the possibility of emergence of a more peaceful and stable world order. The conflict in the Gulf is not the only major global challenge.

I agree with Mr Ng Pock Too's observation on the changing world and the dangers posed by a breakdown of the multilateral and liberal trading system. We know that vast changes are taking place in the global economic and political framework and it is within this context of change that Singapore has to work together with the other nations to meet the challenges of the 1990s. 2.15 pm

Mr Ng is right in saying that Europe continues to set the pace for regional integration. The vision of a greater "European Economic Space" has already emerged. And North America has taken note of this European challenge by creating a US-Canada Free Trade Area (FTA). This FTA will be further enhanced when Mexico is included. These developments in Europe and North America reflect the trend towards greater regional economic cooperation. Obviously, the Asia-Pacific countries cannot remain inactive in the face of these significant developments.

The Asia-Pacific is a region of great diversity - in political systems, in the levels of economic development, in language, in culture and even in religion. In spite of this, the rapid expansion of trade and investment flows, which have been rising in a spectacular fashion, has paved the way for the emergence of an Asia-Pacific consciousness. Indeed, the Asia- Pacific is the fastest growing region in the world today. Japan, the Asian NIEs and ASEAN have all achieved and sustained high growth rates unmatched anywhere else in the world. These countries have achieved economic growth largely on their own. But if they work together, much more can be achieved. The challenge is to transform the Asia-Pacific through greater economic linkages, through appropriate cooperative structures and institutional frameworks to tap this potential so that the 21st century will truly be a century of the Asia-Pacific.

Mr Ng Pock Too, Dr Lau Teik Soon and Mr Charles Chong all raised the issue of our involvement in the various economic groupings and how we reconcile our global outlook with trends towards regionalism and implications of joining all these regional economic groupings. Sir, as a nation that does business with the world, Singapore should be connected, through diversified linkages, to all major economic groupings and all our business partners and countries that want to do business with us.

There are a variety of options open to Singapore and South East Asia. We should consider all these options which serve our national interests. Singapore and its ASEAN neighbours should explore all possible avenues to enhance economic and political cooperation, both along the Western shores of the Pacific and across the Pacific Ocean. It does not matter whether these are regional organisations or groupings so long as they do not run counter to the multi-lateral trading system and harm our national interests. For example, APEC is a significant initiative for developing economic cooperation in the Asia-Pacific. Singapore hosted the Second APEC Ministerial Meeting last year. We strongly support it and we continue to remain committed to its success.

But we should also explore other complementary institutional linkages. The Malaysian Prime Minister's idea for an East Asian Economic Grouping (EAEG) is another constructive proposal that Singapore can and should support, because it will be GATT-consistent, it will complement APEC and it will enhance ASEAN economic cooperation.

Given the dramatic increase in investment and trade flows up and down the western shores of the Pacific, the East Asian states need a common forum to exchange ideas. This will also help them to coordinate their positions so that East Asian interests are not neglected in the Uruguay Round when the giants from Europe and America work together to create a global framework for economic cooperation. Individually, or even as ASEAN, we may not be big enough to have a say in GATT, but APEC and the EAEG can help ensure that our common interests are better represented.

Similarly, the ASEAN-US Initiative (AUI) also holds promise for the ASEAN states. It is in the long-term interests of both the US and ASEAN to strengthen the traditional links that bind us. Mutually beneficial economic cooperation can be enhanced either through the AUI or bilateral free trade agreements.

So the Growth Triangle, APEC, EAEG, AUI are the basic building blocks of complementary informal and institutional economic linkages. If the countries of Indochina and Myanmar adopt policies that bring them closer economically and politically to the countries in the region, then there is no reason why they will not in future be part of this network of economic linkages, contributing to the region's economic growth. Indeed, we recognise that these countries have the potential to play a positive and constructive role in maintaining global and regional stability and in promoting economic development.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh asked why we are preventing our businessmen to invest in Vietnam. Dr Lau Teik Soon also asked about our relations with the Indochinese states. Mr Charles Chong asked whether Singapore will forge links with countries regardless of ideology. Sir, Singapore has stressed its readiness to improve political and economic relations with the Indochinese countries, once the Cambodian issue is resolved. It is not an issue of ideology. We have urged Vietnam and the Hun Sen regime to stop their opposition to the UN peace plan. Therefore, the Government stated in October last year that the ban on investments in Vietnam and Cambodia will be lifted as soon as the Supreme National Council of Cambodia is represented in the United Nations. To lift the ban before this would mean easing of pressure on Hanoi and Phnom Penh to settle the Cambodian problem as quickly as possible.

How ASEAN should organise itself to strengthen economic cooperation in South East Asia and the Asia-Pacific will be an important focus in ASEAN forums in the next few years, and we expect to discuss this in the next ASEAN Summit to be held in Singapore. There is much work to be done if ASEAN is to take substantive steps towards greater economic cooperation.

Sir, the Asia-Pacific region, apart from the Korean Peninsula, Cambodia and the territorial disputes over the Spratley Islands and the Paracel Islands in the South China Sea, is largely free of tensions that mark other areas of the globe, like the Middle East. But we should not take this peace and stability for granted. The relatively smaller South East Asian states must recognise that at least four major powers are present in the Asia-Pacific region in full force, namely, the United States, the Soviet Union, Japan and China. India is also emerging as a major regional power. Its navy can comfortably reach South East Asian shores. We must accept that in the inevitable contest for power and influence among these major powers, South East Asia will be used as an arena as it has been in the past.

Another factor central to the stability of the region is a good US-Japan relationship. If bilateral strains resulting from protectionist policies on either side cause a breakdown of this relationship, then the stability of the whole region will be threatened. To maintain regional stability, we need to find a framework not only to engage all countries in the region, but also the large powers contiguous to the region. We need to find structures that will keep the relationship between the United States and Japan stable, economically and politically.

Recently, Sir, there have been various proposals made to strengthen regional security not only in South East Asia but also in the larger Asia-Pacific. Both Australia and Canada have proposed an Asia-Pacific equivalent of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe. At Vladivostok in 1986, President Gorbachev suggested an Asian version of the Helsinki Conference. Then in 1990, the former Soviet Foreign Minister, Mr Eduard Shevardnadze, suggested the holding of an Asian Foreign Ministers meeting in 1993. Malaysia has suggested a security system in South East Asia built around the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation. Indonesia has proposed talks on the South China Sea. Singapore and the other ASEAN states should consider all these proposals. Also, the traditional ASEAN dialogues, which now take place mainly with ASEAN's major trading partners, may be expanded to include dialogues with other major powers such as China, the Soviet Union and India that have an interest in the region. But a new form of dialogue relationship may have to be evolved with powers with whom ASEAN has little or less economic relations.

Sir, even as we search for new security structures, it will be wise to sustain tried and tested arrangements for regional security, such as the Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA) and the maintenance of US presence in the region.

We must be realistic that history is made by the interactions among major powers. ASEAN states have a vested interest to engage in a full scale dialogue with these major powers to ensure that South East Asian concerns are taken into full consideration as these major powers map out their strategies in the coming decade. We must also be prepared to explore multiple approaches for regional security which will accommodate the big and small regional countries in a constructive framework that will minimise conflict, encourage dialogue, build confidence and enhance cooperation. Over the long term, the security of South East Asia and the Asia-Pacific can be best served by having an engagement of all powers, large and small, if necessary, in overlapping and multiple security and political frameworks.

Sir, Dr Lee Siew-Choh has also asked why Singapore took such a strong position on the Gulf crisis and advised Singapore Ministers to keep their remarks as neutral or as non-partisan as possible. The answer is very simple. Singapore's achievements have depended on an international system that places a premium on cooperation over confrontation, on the rule of law rather than the law of the jungle. Iraq's invasion of Kuwait challenged the rule of law. In the Gulf crisis, in spite of strong emotions aroused in the Arab and Muslim countries, no country in the world has acknowledged the right of Iraq to invade Kuwait. We ignore threats to international order at our peril. In recent times, both Afghanistan and Cambodia have been victims of violent aggression by large powers and more powerful countries. Singapore opposed these acts of aggression and voted for various UN resolutions condemning such acts. It is a matter of principle.

Sir, we do business with the world. We depend on free access to world markets for our survival. We are a member of the world community of nations. We cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. It is therefore in our interest to do our part in strengthening that community which we are a part of. So we must speak up when our national interest is at stake and it is not a question of being partisan. If all nations do as Dr Lee suggests, then I think Iraqi forces will still be in Kuwait today.

Sir, both Encik Wan Hussin and Dr Ong Chit Chung have spoken of Singapore's international obligations. It will make for a better world if nations help and cooperate with one another. It is for this reason that we have gradually increased our participation in various international operations. For example, we participated in the UN peacekeeping effort for the first time in Namibia. We also mounted a significant medical rescue exercise during the Philippines earthquake in July 1990. More recently, we sent an SAF medical team to provide humanitarian assistance during the Gulf crisis and to help Saudi Arabia cope with the burdens of meeting a major threat to its existence. The Saudi government has expressed its gratitude to Singapore for our participation. 2.30 pm

Sir, we have benefitted from the generosity of other nations. Singaporeans have been trained abroad under the Colombo Plan and countless other kinds of programmes. Countries like France, Japan and Germany have set up joint training institutes in Singapore. We are better off today because other countries have seen it fit to help us and help us upgrade the skills of our people. So we are now in a position to do the same. We will consider extending our assistance programmes beyond our currently modest ASEAN training awards and Colombo Plan programme. We are now developing a larger technical cooperation programme to help the less developed countries in areas where we have the expertise. We will give due consideration to countries and organisations with whom Singapore has not cooperated in the past.

Sir, Encik Wan Hussin has also asked whether Singapore should not host a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Conference. We will study his suggestion very, very carefully before a decision is made. As he knows, Parliament does not have a large staff. Even when Singapore has to host the ASEAN Inter-Parliamentary Organisation (AIPO) meeting comprising only five countries, staff from Parliament are not enough to cope with that and additional staff have to be enlisted from other Government departments before such a Conference can be held. What more of a CPA Conference of 49 countries.

Sir, we are mindful that even as Singapore promotes and expands ties with the rest of the world, strong relations with our ASEAN partners remain fundamental pillars of our foreign policy. We therefore have an active foreign policy that, on the one hand, builds on our network of international linkages, while on the other hand, maintains and strengthens our relations with our neighbours.

Today, Singapore enjoys good relations with all our ASEAN neighbours, in particular with our closest neighbours, Malaysia and Indonesia. This is not by accident. Instead, it is the result of efforts by all the leaders and their Governments to work together, both within the ASEAN framework and bilaterally.

The signing of the agreements on economic cooperation in the development of the Riau Province, and on the protection of investments, in August last year with Indonesia, was a milestone. In November last year, Mr Lee Kuan Yew, then Prime Minister, concluded the historic water and gas agreements with Malaysia. These agreements are benchmarks in our bilateral relations with Indonesia and Malaysia. These agreements testify to the desire of all three countries to cooperate for mutual benefit. The foundation for an enduring and cooperative relationship with our nearest neighbours has been laid.

It should be obvious from what I said that the small Foreign Ministry which we have had for over 25 years to protect the interests of a small developing state in a relatively stable regional and global environment will have to be significantly strengthened to cope with the needs of a newly industrialised economy, faced with larger regional and global responsibilities in a more fluid global environment.

In the coming decade, therefore, the Foreign Ministry will have to be transformed to keep pace with the wider range of international interests of a newly industrialised economy. Both in quantity and quality, the Foreign Ministry's role and performance will have to make a quantum leap. This cannot be done with existing resources.

Mr Charles Chong asked about expanding our overseas links and representations. Let me say that in 1990 we added a new mission in Seoul. In future, we will consider setting up other missions, possibly including one in Vietnam when the Cambodian problem is resolved. But we must always remember that Singapore has a very small population and the Foreign Ministry is a very small one, and we have limited manpower resources. Therefore, we cannot over-stretch ourselves to be represented in every part of the world. So some of our overseas representation needs will have to be met by the appointment of roving ambassadors and honorary consuls.

We will also have to devote more manpower and financial resources to meet Singapore's regional and international responsibilities in such areas as technical assistance, participation in international disaster relief operations and in UN peace-keeping.

Aside from manpower increases, equally important is the need to properly train our officers to be sharp analysts at home and effective diplomats abroad. In this regard, we will tap think tanks such as the Institute of South East Asian Studies (ISEAS), the Institute of Policy Studies (IPS), the Institute of East Asian Philosophies (IEAP), the Singapore Institute of International Affairs (SIIA), to gain access to other perspectives on long term trends and other policy issues. For example, SIIA recently organised bilateral colloquia with Malaysia and Indonesia, and MFA officials took part in these colloquia. We found these colloquia useful in enhancing mutual understanding between our countries. Such institutions are also a resource of ideas and brainpower that supplement and complement the limited manpower pool in the Ministry. These institutions should be strengthened.

Dr Ong Chit Chung commented on the Singapore International Foundation. Of course, we will try to cooperate and work with the Singapore International Foundation to achieve its objectives. Therefore, the activities of the Singapore International Foundation would be funded by income earned on an initial $50 million endowment fund. The plan therefore is for the private sector to raise $25 million, which will then be matched, dollar-for-dollar, by the Government. Although the Foundation will be a non-Governmental organisation, its activities will no doubt have the support of the Government.

Sir, the quantitative and qualitative upgrading of the Foreign Service will be achieved through an increase in manpower to undertake new initiatives, new responsibilities, activities, improved training, particularly language training, the upgrading of conditions of service to compensate for the disruptive life-style that diplomats and their families have to suffer in the course of their nomadic existence. Overall, the attractiveness of the Foreign Service will be enhanced, in order to attract and retain Foreign Service officers.

Sir, to meet these new requirements, therefore, MFA's share of the total operating budget has risen modestly from 0.14% to 0.16% of GDP. I believe it will be money well spent given the front-line role of MFA in promoting Singapore's national interests. An enhanced Foreign Service will be essential and yet very much affordable.

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Clarification, Sir. I think the Minister has missed the thrust of my argument. I did not disagree with the stand taken by the Singapore Government. All of us agree that we should stand on the side of Kuwait against Iraq. But after the Americans went into Saudi Arabia, there was a considerable change of public opinion all around in Southeast Asia. I am referring to the fact that we should not try and antagonize public opinion around us. We are a multi-racial society. We have a Muslim world around us. What we say must not be completely and diametrically opposite to what the Governments in Indonesia and Kuala Lumpur have been saying.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: I am amazed by Dr Lee's remarks that we should keep quiet after the Americans have gone into Saudi Arabia. In fact, from what I have read and from what I know, there is no change of mood and opinion in South East Asia. A small segment of the people in our neighbouring countries may have expressed such a sentiment, but I believe the Governments have stood very firm in supporting all the UN Resolutions. So I am amazed that Dr Lee could suggest that Singapore should keep quiet after the multi-national force has taken their place in Saudi Arabia. If we were to keep quiet, then where should our position be? Are we so ambivalent and have no courage to speak up on the side of right?

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Not keep quiet, Sir, but say something which is not so different from what the Governments in Indonesia and Kuala Lumpur have been saying.

Another point which I want to ask the Minister is about Vietnam. He said that we would allow investments after the situation in Cambodia has been settled. Supposing the situation should take some time, when would investments be allowed?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Then investments would take some time too.

Mr Ng Pock Too: Sir, I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answers and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $78,037,100 for Head O ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $30,022,000 for Head O ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

The Chairman: I am glad that the matter concerning Mr Goh Chee Wee has been amicably settled, at least among Members of the House.

Order. We will take the suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 3.10 pm.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 2.41 pm until 3.10 pm. Sitting resumed at 3.10 pm

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head J -

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi (Siglap): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head J of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, earlier this year, this House discussed the kinds of values Singaporeans should share and adopt as the basis for a common identity. It was the culmination of effort which began in 1988, and involving every strata of society. Now, Sir, that we have arrived at a considerable consensus on what these values should be, the next step is for us to promote these values among our population.

We have agreed, Sir, that these values should not be promoted by fiat, nor forced onto our people. Rather, we should create conditions and an environment that could encourage and reflect these values. So far, Sir, no single Ministry has been charged with promoting these values nor with coordinating Government efforts in spreading them.

The Ministry of Community Development, in my mind, Sir, by virtue of its mission and programmes, appears to be eminently suited to spearhead the promotion of these values among our population. Its portfoliocovers the family, community and grassroots activities and welfare. These inevitably touch on the values of the family as a basic unit of society and community support for the individual.

Members of my GPC will deal with specific aspects which impinge on these shared values. Many families are under stress and the necessity to provide for economic needs in an intensely competitive environment, of ensuring that children get a good education, of making sure that the future is assured, often creates strains within a family. With increasing nuclear families being formed, the emotional and spiritual or even financial support by relatives in the same household is becoming increasingly hard to come by. Families under stress are fragile and even those who manage to keep the family intact have to work hard at it.

Sir, at this stage, I would like to ask the Minister whether he would share with us his Ministry's thinking and approach in promoting the shared values, especially in respect of the family. What are its plans and how is it going about its work to ensure that the family remains strong and intact? What kinds of help and support is it offering to families so that they can continue to play their crucial role in society?

The Minister for Community Development (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Sir, as Mr Tarmugi has just said, we have had indeed a full debate on the White Paper on Shared Values only a couple of months ago. We all agreed that these Shared Values are for all Singaporeans. They are to be taught in schools, practised by individuals at home, and reinforced by society. And there is no need for any particular Ministry to be charged with the responsibility of overseeing or coordinating the implementation of these Shared Values. Each Ministry concerned will have to work out its own programmes so that these Shared Values can be taught, practised and reinforced by the different groups, at home and in the community. But I am glad to say, Sir, that my Ministry's objective has been to support a number of these Shared Values. For example, we have worked out programmes to support the family, keeping the family together - one of the shared values stated in the White Paper. 3.15 pm

Our mission in the Ministry, Sir, is to foster, with maximum community participation, a cohesive society which is compassionate and robust. Our programmes are therefore aimed at getting the widest possible participation of the community in the provision of welfare, social and community support services. We want to get as many helping hands as possible to work together to promote a better family and community life for all Singaporeans. And in the process, we will keep the family together and instill in every Singaporean this strong sense of community support for the individual.

Sir, the thrust of my Ministry's welfare programme is to develop a comprehensive network of social support services to meet the needs of the less fortunate in our community and encourage Singaporeans to show concern and to be compassionate towards others. The basic approach therefore is in helping these people to help themselves. We strongly support the principle enunciated in this Asian proverb: It is better to teach them to fish than to give them fish.

We also believe that the family is and should be the primary agent for the care and nurturing of its members. The Government cannot and should not replace this primary role. The Government's role is to provide the environment that will preserve and strengthen the family as a unit and support the family in meeting the needs of its members.

Sir, in administering this network of social support services, we therefore aim to preserve the family as the basic unit of society and enhance the continued well-being of the family and individuals. We also aim to support families in carrying out their responsibilities of caring for and nurturing their members and assist those who are in genuine need of help.

This network is now further strengthened by the formation of the National Advisory Council on the Family and the Aged. The National Advisory Council's primary role is to look into the implementation of the recommendations on family life and aged made by the Advisory Council set up by the Government a couple of years ago. In addition, my Ministry has also formed a Policy Committee to deliberate on policies affecting the family and the aged. Both the National Advisory Council and the Policy Committee are co-chaired by two Ministers of State, Dr Seet Ai Mee and Dr Aline Wong.

Sir, to underline the importance of family as the basic unit of society and to promote family togetherness and family responsibility, the Ministry has implemented several public education programmes such as the annual Family Week and Parent Education Programme since 1985. Under the Public Education Programme on Aging, the Ministry promotes the values of care and concern among family members for the elderly, and encourages families to keep their elderly dependants as far as possible within the family and in the community.

Sir, to support the family and to help families to continue to care for their own members in the family and in the community, several community-based services have been implemented, for example, child care programme; the Ministry in 1985 launched a child care programme to provide child care facilities to working parents. There are now more than 220 child care centres providing almost 15,000 places to children. In addition, the Ministry also encourages the development of before-and-after school care programme to help working parents in the care of their school-going children. Secondly, we have also implemented a number of community-based services for the aged and the disabled. We have encouraged the development of a wide range of community-based services for such people. This will enable the family to continue to care for the aged and the disabled within the community. Financial and other assistance is given to voluntary and welfare organisations to provide such services like day care centres for the aged, day care centres for the disabled and sheltered workshops for the disabled. Thirdly, Sir, we have also piloted the development of family service centres, and four such centres have been set up or are being set up within the next few months. These family service centres are to provide support services to families and to promote family life.

Sir, the Ministry's wide network of grassroots organisations such as the Citizens' Consultative Committees and the Residents' Committees also provide avenues for residents to volunteer their time and to enable families to get together and meet other families within the community, thereby building on this kampong spirit, enhancing community spirit within the public housing estates. And among other things, these grassroots organisations also provide welfare, or education, or bursary funds, and programmes like these to help families in need. Some of them have set up family clubs or recreation clubs within the RC centres with the idea or objective of getting the families together again so that they can socialise and get to know one another.

Sir, our Ministry will continue to strengthen and expand these grassroots organisations and the voluntary and community welfare organisations, so that we will provide more opportunities for Singaporeans to do their part in keeping their families together and to share and cherish the values set out in our Shared Values.

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: Sir, in 1988 several high-powered Advisory Councils were formed to examine various topics and to make recommendations which would turn Singapore into a society that is more robust, yet cultivated and gentler.

Various recommendations of the Councils have been implemented or are about to be realised. Off and on, we hear of new committees being formed, new measures and projects being implemented, some of which are in pursuance of the recommendations of the Advisory Councils.

Can the Minister therefore give us a complete status report on what are the recommendations of the Advisory Councils that have been implemented and those that are to be implemented? I note, Sir, that the Ministry's OOE will increase by $12 million over the FY 90 revised expenditure towards the implementation of some of the recommendations of the Advisory Councils. Can the Minister therefore give details of this proposed expenditure to this House and the implementation schedule that is adopted?

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, last year I informed this House that 233 of the 290 recommendations of the six Advisory Councils had been accepted by the Government and implemented, and that only about 57 major recommendations are still awaiting Government funding before we implement them. I do not want to bore this House by listing all these 233 recommendations that have been implemented, otherwise you will be here till tonight. But I am pleased to report that the Government has given its approval to implement 56 of the 57 recommendations that require additional funding. The only recommendation that has not been taken up is the one on the setting up of four gymnasiums in selected schools by the Ministry of Education. The reason why this has not been taken up is that there is no immediate need for these facilities. I would now try to highlight some of the progress made so far, after the funding approval has been given.

In the area of social welfare, Sir, my Ministry recently announced details of the financial assistance scheme for voluntary welfare organisations (VWOs) on a 50-50 cost sharing basis. This financial assistance scheme will enable VWOs to set up facilities and provide services to meet the needs of the disabled, the frail, the aged, and the low income families. The Government has put aside $92 million for the scheme over the next five years.

The Advisory Council's recommendation on the Rent and Utilities Assistance Scheme to provide financial assistance and counselling to families in arrears of HDB rentals and PUB charges has also been implemented. The scheme is now administered by the Singapore Council of Social Service. It began on 1st October, and now 68 families are on the scheme. A small pilot scheme has also been set up to help individual members of low income families to acquire basic vocational skills so that they can find jobs.

In the area of family and community life, the first of the four pilot family service centres was opened last year in Bukit Gombak. The remaining three will be opened within the next few months in Telok Blangah, Tiong Bahru and Tampines. This pilot scheme is aimed at testing out the concept of providing counselling and other kinds of support services at the community level to the family in need of help and assistance.

In the area of sports, the Singapore Sports Council has already begun building the artificial hockey pitch at Delta Stadium, and this will be ready for use in May this year. The Singapore Sports Council, however, has decided not to proceed with the skateboard park because commercial facilities are available. Other facilities recommended by the Advisory Council on Sports and Recreation include an international shooting range, an archery range, an Olympic gymnasium, and a BMX park. These are still under consideration.

In the area of the arts, Sir, the Acting Minister for Information and the Arts has recently announced that we can expect the Arts Council to be set up sometime this year. And the development of the Singapore Arts Centre is progressing quite well and we expect construction to begin sometime in 1992 or 1993, and completed around 1998.

The projects under the Education Ministry and the Health Ministry are progressing as planned. The Advisory Council on the Disabled has recommended the setting up of a school psychological service by the Ministry of Education, and applicants are now being interviewed for this particular unit in the Education Ministry headquarters.

The Health Ministry is facing difficulties in recruiting professionals such as medical social workers, physiotherapists, occupational therapists and psychologists for the treatment of psychiatric patients, outpatients, and senile dementia patients, as recommended by the Advisory Council on the Family and Community Life and the Aged. To alleviate these difficulties, the Health Ministry is planning to set up an Institute of Health Services to train more medical professionals to meet the shortages.

Sir, there are no major hitches in implementing the Advisory Councils' recommendations. The developmental projects that require a longer time span to implement should be completed within the next four to five years.

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, a number of my parliamentary colleagues have stressed often the reality of our multi-racial society, that we have different communities and different cultures. But the question that I would like to raise is whether we should continue to keep our differences apart.

Sir, to promote understanding, respect and multi-racial harmony, the Government should encourage and promote more multi-cultural activities. By multi-cultural activities, I mean bringing together the four different cultural groups under one roof and performing before a multi-racial audience. This is the way to contribute towards our cultural development and towards national unity. The approach may be called "The Approach of Unity in Togetherness". Let us come together and perform for each other so that we promote multi-racial harmony. 3.30 pm

Sir, during the debate on the President's Speech, three of my parliamentary colleagues misunderstood me completely. They stated that I have advocated that we should, and I quote, "get rid of our traditional cultures" and that I am for, and I quote, "a melting pot type of culture." Obviously, they have not heard me clearly or read the full text of my speech. Nowhere have I said that we should get rid of our cultures, or that I advocate a melting pot culture. My position is a very simple one, as I have said, unity in togetherness.

Sir, the People's Association has done a lot to promote this unity in togetherness and to organise multi-cultural activities. They have been involved over the years in such multi-cultural performances as were staged during the National Day celebrations and the Chingay procession. What I would like to see is the promotion of more multi-cultural performances at the grassroots level, that is, at the community or community club level. At the moment, there are in many community centres different cultural groups, each often performing for its own community. I recollect my Indian cultural group organising a cultural show and the audience was almost entirely from the Indian community. There is nothing wrong with that. But if we wish to promote understanding, respect for each other's culture, then we should do more to perform our different cultures before a multi-racial audience. I do not think we have done enough of that.

In fact, Sir, I would even suggest that in the community centre, there should be one cultural committee, with four sub-committees, each in charge of each cultural group. They can then meet on a regular basis, plan together, organise together and perform together before a multi-racial audience. I would like to ask the Minister whether the community centres would adopt this approach. The stress is more on multi-cultural performances rather than on a performance for a particular community.

Mr Lee Yock Suan: Sir, I am obliged to reply because community centres have been mentioned. As you know, I am the Deputy Chairman of the People's Association (PA), and so long as the Prime Minister delegates to me the responsibility for the PA, you will continue seeing me here during the debate on the Ministry of Community Development's vote.

I share Dr Lau's view that more multi-cultural shows should be staged for multi-racial audiences. In fact, this is what the People's Association has been doing since its establishment 30 years ago. One of the PA's objectives is to promote racial harmony and social cohesion. The best approach is to promote harmony within the diversity of our race, language and culture. We can do this by promoting a sense of togetherness, an appreciation of our diverse cultures and not through the "melting pot" approach. We recognise that each racial group wants to form its own cultural unit to preserve and develop its own culture and traditions. At the same time, the various groups should recognise that they are all part of Singapore's multi-cultural heritage. The PA's performances are therefore usually a mix of various cultural items to project and promote Singapore's multi-racial and multi-cultural character. For example, the Chingay and the PA show time are all multi-racial in nature. Indeed, Singaporeans are fortunate to be able to enjoy the wide variety and richness of our respective cultures. Understandably, during festivals, such as the Lunar New Year, Hari Raya Puasa and Deepavali, the shows and audiences are predominantly from one ethnic group. However, even for such events we could encourage more multi-racial participation. This will certainly help to promote cross-cultural appreciation and harmony. I agree that community centres should organise more multi-cultural shows. It is up to the advisors and management committees how they wish to promote and coordinate such activities.

Dr S. Vasoo (Tiong Bahru GRC): Mr Chairman, Sir, I have two cuts. Can I take one after the other?

The Chairman: All right.

Dr Vasoo: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

The Chairman: Dr Vasoo, I am not sure who will be replying to you.

Dr Vasoo: I will wait and see who has been deployed to reply.

The Chairman: I will have to know who will reply to you before acceding to your request.

Dr Vasoo: Sir, we have to quickly implement more creative and innovative policies and programmes to tackle our aging problems. Issues like retirement, health care for the old, income maintenance for the old, family support for the old and involvement of the old are issues that need to be critically examined. We need to look at these issues carefully because we need to mobilise various community efforts to deal with the problems of aging that we will be facing. These are realities that our community would be faced with and I hope that the Ministry will examine how these problems can be tackled more effectively.

Sir, the Ministry must quickly respond to the setting up of more community facilities and community-based programmes to meet the needs of our aging population. The demand for supportive services, such as home help, nursing care, day care and rehabilitation service will increase when more aged will require care and attention. This demand is becoming more acute in the older housing estates, particularly in the city area.

Sir, it is projected that by the year 2000, some 20,000 semi and non-ambulant elderly will require assistance in their care. In absolute number, this is not small. And I do not propose that we need to build more institutions to provide care for the old but rather to examine how families can be supported and more community programmes can be organised to ensure that the old remain as long as possible under community care. What I would like to know is what steps are being taken by the Ministry to promote more community-based programmes and policies related to the care for the aged.

Sir, on the question of subventions to voluntary organisations, I would like to say that many voluntary organisations are concerned about clear guidelines related to the Ministry's policies in providing financial grants to voluntary organisations. Many community groups and welfare organisations are encouraged by Government to take on more responsibilities in providing services for the disadvantaged sector in our community. These organisations and groups are prepared to undertake community and welfare programmes for various groups such as the disabled, aged and the sick, provided there are clear guidelines and indications of Government assistance.

Sir, in order that voluntary efforts and services could be strengthened, it is important that Government needs to provide reasonable financial grants to assist voluntary organisations. Most of us know that volunteers spend a lot of time and effort in managing organisations and, at the same time, we should not burden them unduly in also raising funds. Government support in terms of financial grants on a dollar-for-dollar basis to these organisations will help them a long way to promote more community programmes and this is a direction which I think we should take. I would like to know what is the Government's funding guidelines to assist voluntary organisations. In this connection too, we have recently set up the 25th Anniversary Endowment Fund and I would like to know how some of these funds in this Endowment Fund are going to be deployed to assist charities.

Dr Koh Lam Son (Telok Blangah): Mr Chairman, I am happy to report to this House that the family service centre (FSC) is a good example of a new social service brought about by many helping hands - the official and the voluntary. The FSC is financially supported by the Ministry of Community Development and operated by willing hands as volunteers. The people also seem to have accepted the fact that some services need to be handed over. So even social services need not be provided by the Government only. In many ways, the FSC has turned out to be a very effective method of obtaining services for those in need. However, people who are involved in the setting up of voluntary organisations, such as the family service centre, want to be assured that the Government has not divested all interests in social service. The Government must continue to adopt a high profile in such activities. It must be seen as a joint venture between two equal partners, the Government and the volunteers, not only in funding but the official hand must be seen to provide leadership, guidance and backup. I am glad to hear the Minister say just now that the Ministry is implementing the new policy of a 50-50% funding and that $92 million has been set aside for this purpose.

But it is also true, as Dr Vasoo has said, that in some welfare voluntary organisations, they found themselves in a state of flux because they are still very unclear of this new policy as to which social service qualifies for this 50-50% funding and whether there will be a periodic review and, for this uncertainty, many programmes may be put on the hold. Sir, I would like to ask the Minister for more details on this.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Sir, the Member for Tiong Bahru GRC has raised questions on the aged programmes, and so on. I think this must be the fourth or fifth year that he is doing this. Every year, I have been trying to give him a good answer. Apparently, that is not enough, and now he tries to restate this again.

The Government's policy is to help the aged to live independent lives of their own. We must remember that the bulk of our aged population, 97% of them, are well-aged. They are fit, they are ambulant and they do not need much care. The aged therefore can continue to play a role, provided they are fit, provided they also project themselves by keeping fit, healthy, being active socially and possibly remain financially strong and take part in the mainstream of community activities. And every year, my Ministry mounts a public education and awareness programme on the aged and we have the Senior Citizens' Day to honour our senior citizens.

There are a number of programmes for the well-aged, whether they be in the community centres, or in the Residents Committees (RCs), or in the various citizens' clubs, or other organisations, enough to keep our senior citizens active. And pre-retirement programmes have also been worked out and implemented to help the aged plan a second career or develop leisure activities when they retire. But for the small number of frail aged, they ought to be helped. The way we help them is to help them remain in their own homes, living with their own family rather than to encourage them to be sent to an old folks' home or to go to the hospital. 3.45 pm

As regards the frail aged and the families who need considerable support if they were to remain with their families, I have said many times in this House that my Ministry has worked out a number of such programmes to help these frail aged to remain within the community and stay in their own homes and, if necessary, they can go to nursing homes or day care centres or respite care centres. I must emphasise that the community day services using the family as the focal point for the care of the frail aged is a point we always take into account when we plan community services.

We discourage admission to homes for the aged. But let me say again that no one should be denied residential care if he needs it or his family, given the best of will, is unable to look after him. There are now about 50 such homes for the aged, half of them run by the private sector. The Government is now helping another 10 such homes either to replace the existing homes or to put up new purpose-built homes. When all these homes come on stream over the next four years, there will be more than enough beds to cater for the frail and bedridden.

The VWOs will continue to receive Government financial assistance and other forms of assistance to pioneer new and innovative programmes or to even improve existing programmes and facilities. Earlier on, I mentioned that the Government has set aside $92 million and the bulk of this money will go towards helping to provide facilities for the aged. So there are enough of such programmes and if there are specific ideas that the Member thinks we should explore, I would be very pleased to look at them and see whether we can implement them or not.

The Member for Tiong Bahru GRC and Dr Koh Lam Son have also asked about the Government's funding policy to help the voluntary organisations and they expressed concern about the ability of voluntary organisations to raise money. Let me say again that the Government has worked very closely with all the voluntary welfare organisations which provide welfare services supported by the Government. There are indeed altruistic people who for their own altruistic reasons want to help others and the Government will do everything it can to help these people do their work. And this is the example of what we meant by promoting the spirit of community above self and also community support for the individual, two of the shared values highlighted in our Shared Values.

The Government's policy in giving grants or financial subsidies therefore is to help such organisations with the seed money so that they can take off, implement programmes and start something to provide services to the people whom they serve. But at the same time, let me also stress that VWOs cannot solely depend on the Government for financial assistance. They themselves must also do their part in fund raising. And indeed the effort last year during our 25th Anniversary is a fine effort of community support. I think never before has such an activity been organised and raised over $90 million from the community and with the support of the Government's dollar-for-dollar funding, the Fund stands at $190 million which is a large sum of money indeed. These VWOs therefore can go to the Community Chest to apply for funding assistance. Or indeed many of them have taken part in fund raising activities themselves and they have benefited from the Government's matching grant. So I think we have done quite a lot for them.

I do not know why there is a misimpression that the Government has not done enough. Let me just give you two examples of how MCD or the Government has gone out of its way to help these voluntary welfare organisations to do their work. Take the Sree Narayana Mission Home, for example. The Sree Narayana Mission Home for the Aged Sick was set up by the Sree Narayana Mission (SNM) on 1st February 1979 at the former British Armed Forces Maternity Hospital in Blocks 87-88 Canberra Road. At that time, the Ministry of Social Affairs obtained approval from the Land Office to give these two units of buildings to the SNM at a very nominal rent of $12 a year.

Then in January 1982, the Home was told that it would be affected by the Chong Pang redevelopment and it had to move. So the Ministry of Social Affairs went around looking for alternative accommodation for this Home. The SNM then approached the Commissioner of Lands and the HDB. The HDB offered them a site of 2,000 sq metres in Yishun New Town, but SNM rejected this offer, because they had plans to increase the capacity of the Home from 100 to 300 and they therefore wanted a bigger area. As the Home had to move out, it was given temporary accommodation at the Sembawang Hospital when the Health Ministry returned the Hospital to the Commissioner of Lands in May 1983. In April 1984, MCD found two sites in Yishun New Town for the SNM and it selected one of these sites. Through the Land Office, MCD bought the land from the HDB for $415,000 and leased it to SNM for 30 years at a nominal sum of $12 a year. Building works are now in progress and the building should be ready by the middle of next year.

MCD also helped this Home get the Institution of Public Character (IPC) which means that it can get tax exemption for the donations given to it. And MCD also channelled a sum of $170,000 from one donor to the Home and supported the recruitment of nine foreign workers and granted free medical benefits to 90 residents when they call on the Government hospitals. The Ministry also got the permission of the People's Association to use the community centres in Sembawang and Yishun to conduct tuition classes for the children there. Throughout this development of the Home, our officials worked with the Home management and fund building committees.

The second example is the Moral Home for the Disabled run by the Tai Hua Huan Moral Society at Jalan Eunos. Again, my Ministry helped the Home to get a 30-year lease at a nominal rent of $12 a year, and we also channelled a sum of $3,000 from a donor to the Home and got it the IPC status. In addition, the Government also gave the Home an annual grant of $110,000 for the first five years and undertook to pay for any periodic maintenance and repairs. And we granted 31 of the residents free medical benefits and supported the recruitment of six foreign workers. We have also arranged for the staff to be attached to the Ministry for training at the Tampines Home run by the movement for the intellectually disabled children.

Sir, these are just two examples of the kind of help that the Government gives to voluntary welfare organisations. And the kind of assistance and hidden subsidies have not been quantified. So it gives the wrong impression to some people that the Government has not done enough. To truly reflect the amount of assistance and subsidies given and the opportunity cost to Government, a proper accounting method will be necessary. VWOs should pay, for example, the market rental for the land or the property or other facilities they use, or for the services provided by the various Government departments. And MCD will give them, with funds from the Finance Ministry, a subvention to pay for rent and such services and the public will know how much help the Government has given to these voluntary welfare organisations.

Early this year, the Government also implemented a new financial assistance scheme for the voluntary welfare organisations. Under this scheme, the Government will provide financial assistance on a 50-50 cost sharing basis with the VWOs. This is to help the VWOs set up and improve existing services and facilities for the aged and the disabled. The scheme also covers recurrent expenditure to run existing and new facilities such as family service centres. Earlier on I mentioned that $92 million has been put aside for this.

As far as I am aware, my Ministry officials, having met the voluntary welfare organisations and having explained to them this new financial assistance scheme, found their response has been positive. So I am not aware of the concern expressed by Dr Vasoo that they are worried that Government would withdraw the funding.

I have also said that $95.2 million have been raised in the 25th Anniversary Charity Fund and with the Government's matching of $95.2 million, there will be more than $190 million altogether for the various voluntary welfare organisations. The bulk of this money went to the various welfare organisations which participated in this fund raising activity and also the Community Chest received a substantial sum with which to form an endowment fund. There is a balance of about $39 million which the Government will put into an endowment fund which will be used to help low-income families, the destitutes and for such purposes.

This is a very large sum of money and my advice to all the VWOs is to use the money wisely and not to squander this money on wasteful projects which do not serve the needs of the community.

Sir, the Member for Telok Blangah talked about the family service centres. I am glad to say that he is pleased with the support given by MCD to his family service centre and I believe that his family service centre is working out well and I am happy to be associated with its opening in a couple of months time. Again, we have given enough funding to this family service centre just as we have done to all other family service centres supported by the Government. Whatever the problems they face, we will try to help them resolve these problems. We have suggested to the management committee of Telok Blangah Family Service Centre that perhaps they could invite an MCD official to sit in the management committee and this is one way of providing them with some guidance and assistance.

My Ministry is also thinking of organising a seminar for all the operators of the family service centres so that they can get together and exchange ideas and share the problems and see whether they can learn from each other and improve on the service that they are going to provide to the various users. On a quarterly basis also, we will try to get the operators together, again with the purpose of sharing views and ideas.

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Encik Wan Hussin bin Hj Zoohri: ( In Malay): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Code JC 1500 of the Main Estimates.

Mr Chairman, every year more than 4,000 couples register themselves for marriage at the Registry of Muslim Marriages. Some of these couples are young people and some do not fully grasp the conditions they must fulfil, the preparations necessary and the responsibilities that they have to bear in setting up a family. In this regard, I am pleased and I would congratulate the various Muslim bodies and mosques that have been conducting marriage guidance courses for these couples. I understand a lot of useful guidance and advice are given in these courses. 4.00 pm

Mr Chairman, I would like to suggest that the Registry of Muslim Marriages play a more active role in this area. This can be done perhaps by the Registry producing a marriage handbook for the benefit of the couples. This handbook can be offered to them free or sold at a reasonable price when they register themselves at the Registry.

As for the contents of the book, it can include, among other things, the responsibilities of a husband or a wife and perhaps even the responsibilities of parents on both sides. And since counselling is now provided by various bodies, it will also be useful to list out in the book the locations of the various counselling centres, their opening hours and the officials manning them.

I would also like to urge that the book be published not only in Malay but also in English and perhaps even Tamil. I believe if this can be done, it would benefit the more than 4,000 newly-wed couples every year.

Mr Chairman, I would like now to move on to my suggestion to appoint a "Hakim" or Judge in the Shariah Court. My reasons for seeking another competent officer to assist the President of the Shariah Court in handling divorce cases are as applicable today as last year. Briefly, in view of the large number of divorce cases, it is inadequate for the President alone to deal with them within a reasonable period of time. Here, I would like again to appeal to the Minister responsible to appoint a temporary Hakim or Judge to serve a fixed term of, say, one or two years. If the officer is found not needed within that term, his services could then be terminated. I hope this suggestion could be tried out so that we could see if this system of temporary assistance is practicable. 4.03 pm

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lim Boon Heng) in the Chair]

Dr Ahmad Mattar: ( In Malay): Mr Chairman, I am replying to the questions raised by Encik Wan Hussin as the Minister in charge of Muslim Affairs.

On the question regarding the Registry of Muslim Marriages (ROMM), I am pleased to announce that ROMM is compiling a handbook on Muslim marriages in conjunction with Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura. The handbook will include topics such as duties and responsibilities of husband and wife, the importance of a successful marriage in the socio-economic development of the Muslim community. The handbook, as suggested by Encik Wan Hussin, will be published in three languages - Malay, English and Tamil.

I would convey the other views and suggestions by Encik Wan Hussin to ROMM.

Mr Chairman, as for his suggestion to appoint a temporary Hakim or Judge to assist the President of Syariah Court, I would like to state that the Auditor-General is presently reviewing the functions of the Syariah Court. I am sure that in his review, he will also look into the various appointments in the Syariah Court and make his recommendations accordingly.

The Chairman: Encik Wan Hussin, would you like to withdraw your amendment?

Encik Wan Hussin bin Hj Zoohri: ( In Malay): Sir, I thank the Minister for his replies and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Abdullah Tarmugi: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of Code JD 1500 of the Main Estimates.

Sir, our welfare policies are in the main geared towards providing opportunities for those in need of help to help themselves improve their own lot.

During the last budget debate, the Minister of State informed the House of two measures which would be implemented to assist poor families and individuals. One of them, Sir, is the Rent and Utilities Assistance Scheme which my colleague, Mr Chay Wai Chuen, would speak about afterwards and has been, in fact, alluded to earlier on by the Minister. The other is the Skills Training Scheme for low income families. This scheme is purported to help those who want to improve themselves but cannot do so or do not know how to avail themselves of the many jobs and training opportunities that exist.

Sir, it is only right that those who are willing to make the effort to help themselves be assisted to do so. In fact, such attitudes should be encouraged if we are to be a self-reliant and robust society. Can the Minister, therefore, inform this House the details of this scheme and how many have taken advantage of it?

The other programme which I hope the Ministry can tell us about is the Women's Welfare Services Unit. Last year, the Member for Yuhua brought up the plight of women who were divorced, suffering from some kind of abuse or physical violence and of the problems faced by single parents. The reply from the Minister of State then, Sir, was that a Women's Welfare Services Unit would be set up in MCD to provide assistance to such women and to be "a direct point of contact for women who need help". May we know, therefore, the progress of work done by the Unit and what further plans does it have to assist women who need its help?

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Sir, this year's expenditure on MCD shows hardly any increase over that of last year. The total of $204 million works out to be only 1.4% of the total budget. Take away the amount allocated to the People's Association programme, sports programme, public relations programme, development budget, whatnots, what is left is only $31 million. Peanuts, compared to the total budget expenditure of $15.81 billion.

Using the excuse that it is against a welfare state, the PAP has neglected its Government responsibility to look after the unfortunate in society, and pass the buck on to the family and the public. That may partly explain why the PAP pushes its policy of respect for the aged, three-tier family and so on. The former Prime Minister laughs. He knows exactly.

The Government has now found a new slogan. [Laughter]. Many helping hands to relieve the needs of the people for the PAP Government. This is, in essence, the PAP's philosophy on social welfare, passing the buck on to the many helping hands of other people. We have destitute families, and we have heard how many people earn such low salaries every month, we have pensioners who receive less than $400 a month, we have people who are on public assistance, the handicapped and so on. Therefore, much needs to be done.

Recently, the Government has increased the Public Assistance rates. But the amount is far from adequate. For example, the public assistance for one person is now increased to $140 per month. But three adults get only $270, less than the amount for two separate persons. I do not know how the Government works it out. Do three people really need less than two people to survive? Is there some form of economies of scale or something?

In answer to Mr Tarmugi and Dr Vasoo, the Minister has already said that a good number of the various Advisory Councils' recommendations will be implemented. The Charity Fund may be ample for the time being, but allocating such miserly sums for social welfare will never be able to help those people, especially the aged, to a better quality of life when these funds become depleted.

If the PAP is serious about its Vision 1999, then the allocation of social welfare must be considerably increased year after year many times. I wish to stress that looking after the unfortunate in our society is a Government responsibility, and the PAP should not shirk its responsibilities by passing the buck on to charitable organisations and the many hands of voluntary organisations. Shared values must mean more than reliance on the altruism of some good souls to help Government. Government must first shoulder its bounden duty and responsibility to help before you can talk of altruism.

The Senior Minister, Prime Minister's Office (Mr Lee Kuan Yew): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the divide between Dr Lee Siew-Choh and me is an unbridgeable one, although we originally had him as part of the PAP. And it stems from a fundamental difference in approach to life and to society. We were both idealistic enough to believe that in a more compassionate world with equal opportunities, there would be less poverty, less misery, more opportunities, more prosperity. That is why he joined the PAP. He then went in for utopian politics. He believed in the communist (socialist credo) that all men should be made equal and be equally treated and equally rewarded.

Once upon a time, in the 1950s, many Singaporeans, especially the Chinese- educated, believed that China was a stupendous success in instant revolution and industrialisation, arising from glossy magazines and brilliant broadcasts of production figures and spick and span showpieces for distinguished visitors to be taken to, children's palaces, model factories, model villages. 4.15 pm

I believe the majority of young Singaporeans or young Chinese in Singapore in the 1950s would have voted for that system. That is the danger of one-man one-vote. It was a mirage. It was a con job. We knew it only in the 1970s and it became obvious to everyone in the 1980s. After all these years, I pose this one simple question to the Member: 70 years in the Soviet Union of the egalitarian society, have they banished beggary, prostitution, misery, hunger? Is that the way, to suppress the individual instinct to perform, to excel, to be better than the other, to get better rewards, bigger prizes, to increase his family's chances in life, so that they can have a better kick-off? All that was stifled with the objective of an equal egalitarian society. God did not make the Russians equal. Lenin and Stalin tried to. You are too long, they chop you down. The end result is total misery. They tried it in China, it has failed. They tried it in Vietnam, boat people. In North Korea, it is a total devastation.

Let me take a few instances. Even in the capitalist West where they have tried throwing money at problems, what is the end result? You go down New York, Broadway. You will see the beggars, people on the streets. Worse than in the 1950s and in the early 60s before the Great Society programmes. Why? Why did it get worse after compassion moved a President, motivated with a great vision of a society which was wealthy and cared for, could look after everybody - the blacks, the minorities, the dispossessed, the disadvantaged. There is more unhappiness and more hardship today and more beggars, more muggers. Why is that? Have we not learnt? Where are the beggars in Singapore? Show me. I take pride in that. Has anybody died of starvation? Anybody without a home left to die in the streets and have to be collected as dead corpses? Because we came to the realistic conclusion that the human being is motivated by instincts that go deep down into the basic genes of life. And the first basic instinct is to protect yourself, and stronger than that, to protect your offspring so that there is the next generation. You kill that link, you have killed off mankind. They half killed that link in China by removing the children in the communes (or children from the communes) from parental control, and disaster followed.

We went with the instinct of the individual. Not all can perform in a free and equal society. Free chances, there will always be the losers. And there is the altruistic streak in society. Individuals who have done well, who want to do something for their fellowmen, and we should use that. Not everybody has it in the same measure, and we have used it. You ignore that and substitute for the altruistic individual with that drive to do something for his fellowmen, a bureaucracy, and you have got corruption, inefficiency, and failure. It has happened over and over again. Do we need to learn all over again when we can see what happened to the British and the Australians? They went in for compassionate welfare programmes. They paid their unemployed almost as much as the employed when they lost their jobs. They had the right to refuse three or four jobs until the right one came along, commensurate with what he was getting the last time, to his liking. The result was the layabouts. So finally the Australians gave up, and a Labour government in Australia has struck down unemployment benefits. If we do not learn from other people's errors, costly errors, we would be ruined, wouldn't we? We have got very little margin to spare.

I take this advantage, not because I believe Dr Lee will influence a younger generation of Singaporeans, but just in case there are the few errant minds, to remind them where we would have been if we had pursued the policies he advocated. I am proud of the ethos with which we have infused a younger generation of Singaporeans. We have given them the chance to stand up, be self-reliant, and be enough of a team, of a nation, so that all can perform at their best, and the whole group, including the losers, will not perish. And that is achieved by going with human instincts, going with basic culture, and making adjustments along the way for those who would otherwise lose.

Watch any tennis tournament. There are vast differences in ability. There are vast differences in the prizes they award and the royalties that go with the first prize, as you sponsor shirts, rackets, tennis shoes, tennis bands, wrist bands. But what we do not see are the preliminary eliminations. They get prizes too. Otherwise, for every competition you may not get more than eight turning up, and you may find the same throughout competing to be the final eight. But there is a moral of reality in life for us, isn't it? I therefore ask him, even at this late stage: Does he really want to mock our urging the younger generation to respect their elders and look after them? Watch out. There may come a day when he will be grateful that his grandchildren had listened to us and respect him and have affection for him and visit him in his old age. Otherwise he may be left to Mr Wong Kan Seng's old folks' home, and that will be a tragedy which I would not like to visit on my worst enemy.

The Chairman: Dr Lee, you want to make a clarification?

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Sir, I am so glad that, after so many occasions I have enticed him to speak, he has at last spoken.

The gulf between Mr Lee Kuan Yew and myself is not that we do not agree on many things. We both believe in ideals. True. But what I disagree with is the way he has gone about doing things. I do not disagree that everybody must have some differences in some way or other. But I disagree with the way the cake which we have made is being distributed. Only a small handful will be able to get all the best, but a large majority will be given only the crumbs. Is that what we want in our society? Do we really want that? I do not think Mr Lee Kuan Yew wants that. But he has done it. That is the whole trouble. And that is why we have been opposing him all this while, not because we are favouring communism or whatever it may be.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: 800,000 home owners, and you say that is crumbs?

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: Well, he has referred to Soviet Russia. Look at what is happening in East Germany today? You listen to BBC. Many people are complaining in the new unified Germany - jobless, privations. Now they are all regretting that they have trusted Chancellor Kohl. If Mr Lee Kuan Yew was there, I do not know what might have happened to him.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: You want Honecker back?

Dr Lee Siew-Choh: He refers to the US situation where beggars are going about on the streets. And yet Mr Lee Kuan Yew leads us to follow whatever the Americans are trying to do. Is that what he wants? There are no beggars in Singapore? There are no beggars, because they have been taken away to the Woodlands Home. He has got a lot of men carting them away. The moment one appears, he is taken away. That is all. Not that we do not have them. And even in spite of that, now and again, we still see some of them. It is a pity that he goes about in huge cars followed by so many bodyguards. Otherwise he might meet some of them. And he has to explain why, after all 30 years of PAP rule, all these people are still going about begging. How come? Surely there must be some way in which they can earn a living. But not in the PAP system.

We have our own MPs here telling us of the gulf between those people earning high salaries at the top and those earning less than $400 at the lower levels. And this is the very thing which we try to avoid. We want to have a more equal and just society - the very slogan of the first Yang Di-Pertuan Negara's Address, sponsored by the PAP Government, and I always remember that because I believe in it. That is why I disagreed with Mr Lee Kuan Yew subsequently. I think he knows it. Not because we follow the communist system or any other system. What we want is fairness, democracy, justice for all. Nothing more, nothing less. And if we have that from the PAP, I give it all the support. I have told our Ministers whenever I see that they are putting up policies which are more decent and which could be supported by the people, I give them my support. And many can see that I have done so all this time. I have not backed out. No. I support. But there are certain policies which you cannot possibly support, and I have openly said so.

The Chairman: Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I think the Member really does not believe in what he said, otherwise he would not be laughing and giggling away. And he tried to lead us thinking that that is really his real position.

Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1991/92, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.