HDB MAIN UPGRADING PROGRAMME (Schedule of estimated date of implementation)

Mr Low Thia Khiang asked the Minister for National Development whether he will provide a schedule showing the estimated date of implementation for upgrading all those Housing and Development Board flats which qualify under the Main Upgrading Programme.

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Main Upgrading Programme is an extensive programme which requires deliberate planning and careful scheduling. Besides the age of the flats, the criteria for selecting the precincts for each batch depend also on other factors, such as the geographical spread of the flats, the level of support for the programme as well as the cleanliness of the precinct. HDB will continue to adjust and fine-tune its schedule so that precincts deserving upgrading more are given priority. The selected precincts will be announced progressively.

Mr Low Thia Khiang (Hougang): Sir, does the Minister agree that the Main Upgrading Programme which has an impact on Singaporeans and where large amounts of Government fund have been spent should be made more transparent?

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: Mr Speaker, Sir, the Main Upgrading Programme is very transparent. First of all, in announcing the programme we said that this is a 15 to 20-year programme to upgrade all HDB flats which are more than 17 years old. These constitute 370,000 flats. We intend to upgrade something like 15,000 to 20,000 flats every year and we have to identify these flats batch by batch. When each batch is announced, the criteria are explained. People will vote on it. The funds are provided for in Parliament. We have debated on it every Budget year. I do not see how transparent you can get.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Sir, since the Minister has said that there are specific principles in selecting these flats, for instance, they must meet certain criteria, like age of the flat and the cleanliness of the precinct, can the Ministry not base on these basic criteria to come out with a schedule? I understand from the Annual Report that HDB is going to upgrading 15 precincts a year. So it could base on this number and give an estimated date of all the flats which qualify under the Main Upgrading Programme. I do not think it is that difficult.

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: As I have explained in my answer, one of the criteria is age. So if a flat is more than 20 years old, the chances of it being upgraded in the next few years are very good. However, there are also other considerations in choosing flats which are more than 20 years old. We want to make sure that they are all geographically spread out. We want to make sure that there is a high level of support and we want to make sure that the residents do take care of their precincts in the level of cleanliness. So we have got to check on these precincts and we will decide on the precincts batch by batch and year by year.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Sir, is it not possible for the Ministry to base on certain criteria, for instance, as the Minister has said, the age of the flat, and give a schedule of the estimated date for all the flats and, if subsequently there is any change, since it is only an estimate, it could explain why it was changed or delayed to a later stage?

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: The current estimate is very good. If a flat is above 25 years, the chances are very good. If it is above 20 years, the chances are not so good. In the next few years, if it is below 20 years, there is no chance.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Does the Minister agree that it is not a matter of whether the chances are good or not? It would be better for the public to at least know there is an estimated schedule to show what can be expected from the upgrading programme for the next, say, 15 to 20 years because, eventually, all the flats should be upgraded.

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: Without having to belabour this point, I think the first criterion which most Singaporeans would know is the age of their flat. So knowing the age of their own flat, they know when would be the approximate time of their upgrading. If you are living in a very old flat in Queensway, the chances of your flat being upgraded would be higher than if you are living in a flat in Bedok or Hougang. Second, there are other criteria. We do not want to just upgrade all the flats in Queensway because they are more than 30 years old. We want to make sure that the benefits of upgrading are spread out geographically in Singapore. If we go strictly, mechanically, robotically and automatically by age, then upgrading will just be concentrated in the older estates, like Queensway and Toa Payoh. So we want to have a geographical spread. Each time when we announce the batch, we make sure that Singaporeans living in all sectors of Singapore do benefit from the upgrading programme which is also ranked by the age of the flats in that sector or area.

Third, of course, we want to know whether there is support for the programme. There is no point in announcing and identifying a precinct for upgrading, go through one year of design and only to receive less than 75% endorsement of the programme. It is a waste of the residents' time. It is a waste of the architects' time. So we want to know whether there is support for the programme before we announce or identify the batch.

As at January this year, we have decided to also include cleanliness as a criterion. By including cleanliness, we have a mechanism where the level of cleanliness of the precincts is shortlisted and monitored. So those residents who keep their precincts clean would be slotted for upgrading ahead of those who persistently dirty their precincts.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Sir, does the Minister agree that as more criteria are added which are variable, like cleanliness, the residents who live in flats which are more than 20 years old would be uncertain about the chances of their flats being upgraded? Why is it not possible for the Ministry to base on certain specific principles which are already established and leave the variable factors aside, and come out with at least an estimated schedule, so that the residents can expect when their flats would be upgraded? Of course, subject to other variables, you may add two years, or if there are many graffiti or the crime rate in the precinct is high, then your precinct would not be upgraded. But at least the basic criterion is the age of the flat. The other factor which I think ---

Mr Speaker: Mr Low, are you making a speech?

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Does the Minister agree that looking at the selection of past and recent precincts, it seems that Toa Payoh Estate has been given quite a lot of upgrading programmes compared to older estates like Queenstown or Tiong Bahru for that matter? This raises the question as to how these blocks are being selected for upgrading. I think certain criteria like geographical spread have not been properly explained in the announcement on the selection of the precincts.

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: Sir, there is a method for identifying the precincts.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: What is the method?

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: As I have explained earlier, all the flats are ranked based on age, and the Member will notice that in the last seventh or eighth batches, precincts in Queensway which are older have been systematically shortlisted for upgrading. Similarly, flats in Toa Payoh, which are more than 25-30 years old, have also been shortlisted for upgrading. If we just maintain age as the sole criterion, then the upgrading would have been very lopsided in just these two areas. So we want to spread it out and therefore we gave one or two precincts per regional zone - one in the east, one in the north, one in the west and one in the central area. Again, if the Member checks through the seventh and eighth batches, he will notice that there is always a geographical spread.

We also want to give priority to the 3-roomers because, as I have explained earlier, one of the objectives is not only to improve the environment but also to enhance the asset of the flat owners. So among the flats which are oldest, we also target the smaller flats. And now we are including the criterion of cleanliness.

We also work closely with town councils because when we identify a precinct, we want it to dovetail with the R&R programme of the blocks. So we also consult the town councils on the major improvements that they are doing in their town councils to make sure that if there is an R&R for the precinct and it coincides with the upgrading, then there are savings for the town council.

There is a method for identifying the precincts. We are reluctant to announce the precincts five years or 10 years ahead of time because there will be many changes. The programme is a rolling programme. There is an annual budget for it. There is an annual schedule. And one of the reasons why this programme has to proceed year by year is that the programme will only go ahead if there are significant budget surpluses to fund it. This is a $1 billion programme per year and we do not want to commit ourselves to a 5-year programme without making sure that there are budget surpluses to pay for these projects. So this is the reason why we cannot have a 5-year rolling plan.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: I can now understand it better. From the Minister's answer just now, I understand that there is a ranking of flats which are 20 years or older. Would the Ministry at least publish the ranking of the flats?

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: I think the age of flats is common knowledge to everybody. We just go according to the age of the flats. We look at every estate and we rank the precincts according to the age of the flats. And we generally proceed with the upgrading of the oldest flats in the estate first, unless, of course, the precinct just had an R&R and there is no point to go back and upgrade it one year after it has had its R&R. So we will make certain adjustments to make sure that there is no wastage of public funds. But the age ranking is quite clear to everybody. Everybody knows when their flats were built. Everybody knows whether their flats are older or built later than their neighbouring flats.

Mr Low Thia Khiang: Sir, would the Minister agree to publish the ranking? It is no good saying that people know about it. People will be interested to know what is the age of their flats compared with others who qualify for upgrading.

Mr Lim Hng Kiang: When we progress with estates or towns, this is also made known. For example, in Toa Payoh, we work closely with the town councils and grassroots organisations and we subdivide Toa Payoh into various precincts. In each of these precincts, they know when the flats were built and therefore if there is a selection of precincts for upgrading, the town councils know in which sequence the flats will be selected for upgrading. Hougang is not due for upgrading for many, many years. So there is no need for us to consult the town council to designate the precincts and do the ranking.