ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1997 TO 31ST MARCH, 1998

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [2nd Allotted Day].

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head Q -

The Chairman: Head Q - Ministry of Home Affairs. Amendment No. (1), Mr Chng.

Mr Chng Hee Kok (East Coast): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head Q of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, the Minister for Home Affairs has recently announced that 32 new Neighbourhood Police Centres (NPCs) will be set up when the current Neighbourhood Police Posts (NPPs) are revamped. These NPCs will serve as one-stop centres to provide a comprehensive range of services. The Minister has also disclosed that currently, our NPPs are understaffed. The NPCs can solve this problem because 120 officers can man each NPC at any one time, compared with the current 15 officers per NPP in the 92 NPPs nationwide.

Sir, I applaud the efforts of the Singapore Police Force to be constantly on the look-out to improve the manner we handle internal security of our country making Singapore safe for Singaporeans. My concern is that this very restructuring may compromise the security and safety of Singaporeans. In my view, the introduction of the NPCs is in actual fact a move to downsize the Police Force. I do not believe for one moment that this is done to cut down employment of police officers, but rather, I believe the Ministry or the Police Force has got a manpower shortage problem.

As with all employers in Singapore, the Singapore Police Force also faces a similar problem, ie, shortage of manpower. More so in the uniformed services as generally Singaporeans shun such jobs. I understand also the staff turnover is high which means that we have difficulty in keeping those already recruited into the Force. This problem, Sir, could perhaps be solved through several ways. One is of course the recruitment of non-Singaporeans which the Police Force is already doing. More should be done as there are well-trained police personnel who are more than happy to make Singapore their home.

The other measure is the freeing of manpower from non-essential areas and deploying well-trained officers to jobs which are crucial to the effectiveness of the Police Force. I shall speak more on this subject when I move a separate amendment on the privatisation of services.

A third and perhaps most important measure is to review the salaries and terms of service of the organisation. I am in support of this measure as we must not take our low crime situation for granted. This low crime situation is due mainly to the effectiveness of the police in deterrence and crime solving.

This effectiveness must be maintained if we are going to give Singaporeans the Best Home. Peace time security is no less important than preparing for external defence. Hence, I am most concerned that the restructuring may mean that we see less foot patrols, less bicycle patrols and less policemen on the roads. Such presence may seem to be unproductive and wasteful. But it is these very efforts which deter crime. It is these efforts which give our citizens a sense of security and confidence. How can this be measured or valued? Just like how do we measure or value National Service. Our police, aptly named the Home Team, is constantly in direct contact with Singaporeans and tourists alike and their morale and pride must be maintained at the highest level.

Sir, this House would like to be assured by the Minister that the reorganisation will enable Singaporeans to continue to enjoy the safety and security which we currently have, and that his Ministry will do its utmost to make our Home Team into a world class Police Force, if there is such a measure.

Mr J. B. Jeyaretnam (Non-Constituency Member): Sir, before I speak, I suppose I should say that I have no pecuniary interest when I refer to instances but, of course, I am drawing from my knowledge and experience at the Criminal Bar. 12.45 pm

I propose to speak on the accountability of the uniformed organisations in this country to the public. We have heard often enough from the Ministers and from the PAP leaders of how the Government is transparent and accountable to the people. I think the time has now come for us to translate some of these utterances into positive steps to show that the Police are accountable, not only the Police but also the other uniformed organisations, are accountable to the people. I think it is time we gave some measure of control over what happens in this country to our people. And my party has been advocating this for some time now in its slogan "Power to the People".

I wish to speak on the role of the Police Force. Sir, the Police, first and foremost, serve the public. They are here to look after the interest of the public and to protect them. They must not be seen, and it would be dangerous if they are seen, to be serving their political masters.

Some years ago when we had a prosecution against the party, one police officer, who was in the witness stand, quite candidly said, "Anything that comes from a political party, I can't deal with it. I have to refer it to the Minister for instructions," although he had the power to deal with that particular application from the party. But that is not the point of my amendment today. My amendment is about the complaints that are made, from time to time, by members of the public about violence used by the police officers whilst they are under questioning or in the custody of the police.

At the moment, any such complaint is referred to the Internal Investigation Section of the police. It is investigated by police officers, although we are told it forms a separate branch of the police. But nothing is said about how the investigations are carried out and if there is any report, that report is not made known to the public or to the victim who made the complaint. He is merely told in a very curt note that there is no evidence of his complaint.

Some four years ago, there was a boy of 14 who was taken in by the police and he was detained for about seven hours. And when he was finally released, he was found to have severe injuries on him. The father reported it to the Internal Investigation Section and later on consulted the solicitors. When the solicitors wrote to the Division for the names of the police officers who had interrogated the boy and in whose custody he had been for seven hours, the Divisional head refused to disclose the names of the officers, and this dragged on for some period of time.

I think in the cause of transparency and accountability, it is time that the Ministry considered setting up a body outside the Police Force to consider complaints against the police by members of the public. In Britain, they have had for some time now what is known as a police watch committee. Is it not possible for us in Singapore, in this age, to have such committees in every police area, composed of respectable citizens living in that area and who would be responsible enough to act responsibly, to inquire into the complaints and to direct or to request any action to be taken, if action is to be taken? That would give our citizens and the public a greater measure of confidence in the Police Force, that there is an independent neutral body which will investigate any complaints made against the police by them. That would enhance the role of the police in the eyes of the people, and they will no longer be looked upon as merely serving their political masters.

Mr Kenneth Chen Koon Lap (Hong Kah): Sir, I do not know why the NCMP always refers to Britain. Why do we always have to follow Britain? I think the British have their own problems. Thank you very much, we can manage ourselves.

Sir, the latest announcement by the Ministry on the pay review of the Police Force is anxiously awaited. I hope it will be positive. It will no doubt help to boost the morale of the Force but, more importantly, it will attract more aspiring young Singaporeans to make law enforcement as their career.

The Police Force has always placed human resource as its top priority. It constantly upgrades the skill of the officers and reorganises the Force, in order to be more effective and to keep up with the ever changing situation in crime fighting. The recent move to form Neighbourhood Police Centres, by integrating the NPPs would go a long way to enhance the effectiveness of our men in uniform. On this, I am more optimistic than my colleague, Mr Chng.

However, no matter how one reorganises, the Force will always require more able and dedicated recruits and with the scarce human resource in Singapore and with so many sectors competing for so few, it will always be difficult to attract young, dedicated people to the Force. I would therefore like to suggest that since not all posts in the Police Force have to be trained so vigorously to serve as law enforcement officers, it would seem a waste to deploy all those who have undergone such training to serve in duties which do not require such discipline and skill. I am referring to those officers being deployed to tasks such as issuing parking summons for minor traffic offences, clerical or administrative duties.

In some countries, I understand, issuing summons for illegal parking or minor traffic offences is being privatised, or they engage retirees to carry out this task. As for clerical and administrative duties, those who are engaged in the Police Force need not be from the uniformed group. They can be drawn from the civilian work force. This would mean that those who join the Police Force and have undergone vigorous training will be deployed only for active police duty, so as to maximise their effectiveness in the uniformed group.

Encik Harun bin A. Ghani: Sir, may I seek a clarification from Mr Jeyaretnam? I thought Mr Jeyaretnam said that the Singapore Police and other personnel are not accountable to Singapore. Is he saying that police and uniformed personnel are not accountable to the people of Singapore? He said it in his introduction just now.

Mr Jeyaretnam: I thought I made it quite clear when I spoke that when the public have complaints against the Police, they are not told how the investigation was carried out, what statements were taken and the final report is not made known to the person who made the complaint. That is exactly what I mean when I say accountable. The Police have to be accountable to the people, and if the people have a grievance, then the Police should answer the people and account to them for their actions.

Assoc. Prof. Chin Tet Yung (Sembawang): Sir, I just like to make a point about Mr Jeyaretnam's comments just now on the complaint against the Police. He, of course, will know that there are always checks against the misuse or improper use of methods of interrogation by police officers, not only it is provided for in the Penal Code in respect of offences for oppressive questioning, the courts have also taken it upon themselves to monitor and to look at statements made by accused persons to police officers to see whether they are voluntarily obtained. And there have been some cases where such statements have been rejected.

Sir, I do believe that a well-trained professional Police Force would want their statements taken by them to be admissible as evidence. I think checks and balances are in the system concerning the control of the Police and that they are accountable.

Now I come to crime control in neighbourhoods. Sir, Singapore is fortunate to have a comparatively low crime rate. We must be one of the very few countries in the world that needs to advertise that low crime rate does not mean no crime. The Neighbourhood Police Post (NPP) is a key institution in the fight against crime in Singapore. There are now 91 NPPs in Singapore. The NPP is the most visible link between the Police and the people. It forges ties between officers and residents and provides the latter with a real sense of security. The officers also get to know the neighbourhood well, adding to their ability to cope with local crime quickly. Since the start of the scheme in 1983, the NPP has gained a solid reputation among residents. It is usually the first recourse when residents want to report a crime or dispute. The fact that crime is generally low in the estates testifies to the success of the police in general and the NPP scheme in particular.

Earlier this month, the Minister announced the setting up of three Neighbourhood Police Centres (NPCs) to provide better service to the residents; the first to be set up in October, the others in the first part of next year. Sir, the reasons reported for the redesign of the NPP scheme are said to be two-fold:

First, expanding the duties of NPP officers will encourage better qualified persons to join the Police. Second, the new scheme will be more efficient in terms of using manpower resources. Whether the redesign will achieve these ends, of course, remains to be seen.

In the meantime, there are several concerns that I hope the Minister can address. First, will the reorganisation mean that no new Neighbourhood Police Posts will be built? This is of particular concern to those who have just moved into new neighbourhoods. For example, Woodlands is still served by the Bukit Panjang NPP. It is natural for residents who have just moved to a new area, such as Neighbourhood 5 or 6 in Woodlands, to feel more insecure as they need time to adjust to the new environment. They, more than anyone else, in my experience, have requested for more police patrols.

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Second, does the redesigned structure mean more or less visibility in terms of foot or bicycle patrols in the estates? It has to be recognised that one of the most effective deterrents against crime has been the presence of police officers in vulnerable areas. Fast response cars or car patrols may be more efficient, but not as effective in terms of police presence as men on foot patrols.

Third, will the redesigning of the NPPs also take into account the fact that it is now possible to keep watch through the use of surveillance cameras? Surveillance equipment may be expensive but never as good as officers on the ground. However, they can be on 24 hours a day providing round the clock security. These cameras are already a common sight in some private properties here. Although they are used in public streets and facilities, it is much more widespread in other countries such as England. In the long run, such devices may help to alleviate the shortage of manpower in uniformed services, which was referred to by other MPs, while providing a high degree of security in areas monitored by such means. Of course, I do not mean to advocate that these devices are placed in such a manner as to intrude on the privacy of residents.

Sir, it is worth emphasising in closing that the prevention of crime is not only the sole task of the police. It is even more important for all residents to be aware of the need for security. All too often, one finds that residents complain about petty thefts of their belongings left out in public corridors, claiming that the police have not done enough. The public needs to be aware that the control of crime is not just a matter for the police but it is the responsibility that is shared by all.

Mr Jeyaretnam: May I ask the speaker, by way of clarification, when he talks about interrogation methods of the police and the admissibility of statements, is he aware that in 1989 three men were alleged to have confessed to murder after 28 hours of interrogation when they were totally innocent and finally were acquitted by the court?

Assoc. Prof. Chin Tet Yung: Sir, I believe that the courts and the law reports, which of course Mr Jeyaretnam, as a practising lawyer would be aware of, do document a number of cases where, because of persistent questioning and long hours of questioning, the statements have not been received in evidence. It is not just one case where the statements have been rejected. There have been rejections of statements on a number of occasions which, of course, Mr Jeyaretnam should know about.

Mr Jeyaretnam: The statements were admitted in this case.

Assoc. Prof. Chin Tet Yung: But you do know many of the statements were not admitted.

Mr Chng Hee Kok: Sir, the upshot in juvenile delinquency, rioting and teen violence is a cause for concern. There is also a rise in the number of female delinquents. Contrary to popular belief that delinquency is a problem of broken homes, some of these delinquents seem to come from affluent families as well. They are at an age not to realise that if caught and charged for misdeamours it may result in an uncertain future. Hence, we must implement measures to prevent such young Singaporeans from having their careless behaviour criminalised.

I therefore welcome the implementation of the ban on under-16s from tea dances and discos. This is but one measure. Another measure which should be considered is the implementation of a curfew on teenagers in selected popular locations. Young Singaporeans are drawn to the bright lights and reading media reports. There seems to be a trend in believing that it is fashionable for young people to be members of a gang.

When enforcement measures are implemented, unfortunately, a breach will bring the young offender face to face with the law. A tough decision will then have to be made by the enforcement agency, which is to prosecute or not to prosecute. Prosecution of a young offender is often viewed negatively, especially when a custodial sentence is imposed after conviction. Parents are inevitably the first persons to declare that their children are not bad or guilty, even when the evidence before them is overwhelming.

Delinquents often cite parents' behaviour, such as neglect, abuse, indifference to over-indulgence or over-protectiveness or being too strict, as a cause for their behaviour. Such parents even blame the schools for their children's poor behaviour. What all this means is that delinquency and a host of other related problems are very much a multi-faceted one. By the time the police is involved, much harm has already taken place. The lucky ones may get away with a stern warning. But the not so fortunate ones will have their criminal records with them for the rest of their lives. Therefore, this issue is not strictly a police problem as many have mistakenly believed.

I believe that an Inter-Ministry Committee has been put in place to look into this problem and the imposition of a ban on under-16s from discos and tea dances is only one measure to prevent the problem from escalating. It will be useful for the Minister to enlighten us on the workings of this Committee and elaborate on some of the possible measures that will be implemented to arrest this problem.

Mr Kenneth Chen Koon Lap: Sir, the ban on teenagers below the age of 16 entering premises that sell liquor has received very positive response from parents, especially in view of the increasing incidence of reports where youngsters got beaten up by gangs and the increase in cases of teenagers being arrested for rioting. However, I wonder how effective this measure would be to prevent our youths from joining gangs and creating trouble, as they can always find other places to engage in such illegal activities. In fact, the source for recruiting generally innocent youths into gangs often happens in places such as void decks, shopping malls, schools and other such public places. By the time they caused problems in these places, such as pubs and discos, the damage has already been done.

In Singapore, very often both parents are working and are not able to spend sufficient time to monitor their children's activities. Once I was asked to give assistance to my constituents. Both husband and wife are professionals. They were shocked to discover that their son was arrested for rioting and being a member of a teenage gang. They have absolutely no prior knowledge of their son's activities. The son, being extremely timid, was intimidated into joining the gang by friends while hanging out in one of these areas.

In the past, secret societies have effectively been wiped out. I am sure our Criminal Investigations Department (CID) is more than capable to do the same by tracking down the ring leaders of such youth gangs. Once these ring leaders are immobilised, all the so-called followers, most of whom are misguided youths and not hardcore criminals, would not be able to cause trouble on their own. Action has to be taken immediately before these gangs can take root and become as notorious as the secret societies of the past.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang (Jalan Besar): (In Mandarin): Sir, over the past five years, I have been speaking on juvenile delinquency and every year I heard that new measures were taken to prevent juvenile delinquency. This is very encouraging. But I still feel that the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Police should not be the only agencies dealing with juvenile delinquency. I think this is a matter that involves the whole society - parents, schools and other social components. It is the common responsibility of all the people. So it is not right that the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Police should be asked to take the whole responsibility. It is not right for people to perceive this as such.

I agree with my colleagues that prevention of juvenile delinquency should be handled by an Inter-Ministry Committee. It can be better solved through such a Committee. Every year we have new measures. It does not mean that the question of juvenile delinquency is getting worse. It also means that our juvenile delinquents are becoming more sophisticated. The moment you have new measures they know how to circumvent them. When the number of delinquents arrested is declining, could it be because our juvenile delinquents have learned how to avoid being arrested? In any case, I appreciate Prof. Ho Peng Kee's announcement of the four measures earlier to curb juvenile delinquency.

Here, I would like to ask the Minister a few questions. The Minister announced that from 1st October, young people below the age of 16 will be banned from attending tea dances? Why 16? Why cannot you include those below 18? Those below 18 should also be banned from going to discos and tea dances. In December last year, we imposed a ban on youngsters below 16 from going to the billiard saloons. We can increase the age restriction to 18. We should reconsider the definition for juvenile delinquents. Is it young people below 16 or below 18? I think we should have a consensus on the definition of juvenile delinquents so that it would be easier for us to enforce the ban more effectively on young people going into such undesirable places.

Dancing by itself is not a problem. It is the lighting, the sound system, the whole atmosphere of the dance hall that is exciting the young people. Our community centres should also have similar activities to provide places for young people to expend their energy, in the right environment

The other point here is the appointment of discipline masters in the schools. Some teachers have asked me whether their safety may be endangered. How could they be protected when they are threatened?

The next point is to strengthen crime prevention education in schools. The Minister said that we could have more talks and seminars to teach our young people how to prevent crimes. They can also be shown some educational video tapes. I think these are very good things. I would even suggest that they should have pamphlets and posters printed on prevention of juvenile crimes, and even handbooks or small little pamphlets for the parents, social organisations and other members of the public for them to read and understand the problem. This will help to prevent our young people from falling into crime.

Sir, I feel that the street wise programme, on the face of it, is good for the young people. We want them to voluntarily join such programmes. To a certain extent it is a bit difficult to implement because these young people are not mature enough in many cases. If it is possible, I feel that we may make it compulsory for certain young people to join this programme. We should not leave it to them to join on their own free will. 1.15 pm

Mr Peh Chin Hua (Jalan Besar): (In Mandarin): Sir, cases of juvenile delinquency in Singapore are on the increase and it has come to a stage that gives us cause for concern. According to Police statistics, among the juvenile delinquents who were arrested last year, 84% of them were students and 70% of them were youngsters between the age of 14 and 15. Very often, they realise the seriousness of the offences only after they have got into big trouble and it is too late. Among those who were arrested, some were charged with drug addiction, consumption of alcohol and disorderly behaviour. Recently, Chief Justice Yong Pung How pointed out that in the last few months, among the 18 cases of rioting, 16 of them involved juveniles. Very often, these young people will go around in gangs and they will loiter in public places and amusement parks at night, fighting and causing trouble.

In the Ministry of Home Affairs' Addendum to the Presidential Address this year, the Police announced that they would be working closely with the Ministry of Community Development, the schools and voluntary welfare organisations to deal with juvenile delinquency. At present, discipline masters of the schools have been appointed as officers of the Police Cadet Corps to enhance their authority in disciplining the problem students. Following that, the Government has also formally announced on 16th July, four measures to ban youths under the age of 16 from attending tea dances. This is also to prevent the young people from getting into trouble. Although some people feel that this will not resolve the matter and may even cause the young people to go underground, I personally do not agree with them. I feel that when parents are unable to discipline their children, as a responsible Government, for the future of the children and for law and order in society, the Government's intervention and adoption of preventive measures is absolutely necessary.

Sir, I fully support the four measures adopted and announced by the Government. However, there is no mention as to what penalties these young people will face if they have violated any of these regulations. Are they given just verbal warning or will they be sent to the schools to be dealt with? I hope that the Minister will give us a reply on that. Six months after the implementation of these measures, if the effects are not significant, we should have more stringent measures to enhance the effects. Maybe we should have curfew or measures of that sort to prevent juvenile delinquency from rising.

These young teenagers are still in school. Their intellect is not fully developed. Their physiological reaction and conduct are easily influenced by external factors. It is necessary for us to help them to prevent them from going into wrong ways, and to maintain peace and order in our society.

The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Wong Kan Seng): Sir, I thank the MPs who have spoken about the efficiency and professionalism of our Police Force and praised them that they have done a good job. I am sure this will spur them further and motivate them to do better. And I also welcome any justified criticism of their deficiency because I am sure they know that they are deficient in some areas, and if there are ways for them to do better, they will welcome suggestions to perform better. But criticism about their performance, whether it is about brutality or the way they go about their job, which is unjustified and unwarranted or there is no evidence to support it, I am sure, would not help them in their work. It may just de-motivate them. But, of course, I know my officers will always work hard, they try hard, and they will do their best in whatever that is given to them.

We are concerned also, like Mr Chng and some of my colleagues, about the competitiveness of the Police Force, whether or not we are able to recruit the right kind of people, and enough people into the Force. As we know, Singapore faces a manpower shortage and we have hundreds of thousands of foreign workers. The private and public sectors are competing for the same pool of school leavers. So we have to always continually look for ways and means of making our scheme more attractive.

We have recently set up with the Prime Minister's Office an MHA Joint Committee to review the terms and conditions of service for all the uniformed services under the Ministry of Home Affairs, not just for the Police Officers. This will ensure that the officers are fairly compensated for their sacrifices and their responsibilities and it will help us to maintain the competitiveness of the uniformed services in MHA.

The preliminary findings show that the low entry, ranks and salaries, as well as the lower progression rates, have indeed worked against us in attracting and retaining especially the junior officers. We need better progression prospects and more competitive pay structures to attract people, and I think that would be the outcome of the review. We are also looking at managing our uniformed groups' salaries autonomously, that means, within the Ministry, so that we can react to changes more effectively and promptly. The study should be completed by September.

Pay and benefits are not the only things that the MHA would be improving. In parallel, we are also introducing schemes to provide officers with ample opportunities to upgrade themselves. We would also restructure their jobs to make them more interesting and challenging and thus make their career more fulfilling and meaningful.

I agree with Mr Kenneth Chen that non-core Police functions - the functions are crime prevention, investigation, maintenance of law and order - should not be done by a fully trained Police Officer. I agree with him that the job, say, of issuing summonses for parking offences actually does not need a Police Officer to do. We need somebody to do the job. As you see in the HDB, the parking wardens are not Police Officers, yet they are able, when they are empowered, to issue summonses for parking offences. So we will do more of that.

Mr Chng also asked us to consider recruiting foreigners into the Police Force. We do not have a special programme just to target foreigners but if there are suitable foreigners who understand our culture and society, who are interested in serving here and have the same commitment and willingness to settle down in Singapore, we will certainly consider them. But they must meet the same recruitment criteria as for Singaporeans. We do not have one set of rules for foreigners and another set for locals. So far, we have recruited a few and we will continue to recruit them if they apply to us and if they meet the job requirements.

Concerns were expressed about the redesigning or restructuring of the Neighbourhood Police Posts. Mr Chng put it as if we are downsizing the Police Force. We are not downsizing the Police Force. Let me assure him that the Police Force manpower strength will remain the same, if not increase, if there are new job requirements that will need more Police Officers.

Prof. Chin also wants assurances that our redesigning or restructuring of the NPP will continue to provide the same level of service to the public. Again, let me, at the outset, say, yes, that will continue to be so.

He has asked for the details of this new NPC (Neighbourhood Police Centre) system. Let me try to give a bit more details on that. Our current NPP system was implemented in 1983. No system can remain cast in concrete or in iron, and last us forever even when circumstances change. Indeed, circumstances have changed. That is why I have asked the Police to do a review of the NPP system, bearing in mind that the profile of new entrants into the labour force has changed and also bearing in mind that the public expectations of the service level of the Police have also changed, and that we are competing with many other organisations for the same scarce pool of manpower.

The review was driven by three key considerations. Firstly, it was a growing difficulty that the Police faces in recruiting junior Police Officers, especially given the tight labour market and the improving educational profile. So there is a need for Police to make better use of the limited manpower resources available.

The second reason that drives us to do this review is that as we have increasingly better qualified officers, then the job scope and challenges must also expand. In other words, you just cannot have a polytechnic diploma holder becoming a Police Officer and sitting at the counter doing the same mundane work of changing identity card addresses. We have to widen his job's scope to make it more challenging.

Third, we also need to involve the community more in the area of crime prevention, so that they have a greater ownership over the security of their own neighbourhood. I believe that the security of our neighbourhood should not just be the job of the Police Officers. I think it is also in the interest of the residents living in the neighbourhood to ensure that the place is safe.

As a result, the NPP system has been redesigned. This redesign of the NPP system will see the creation of six regional headquarters, instead of the current seven division headquarters. Together with the six regional HQs, we will have

32 Neighbourhood Police Centres (NPCs), and the NPCs will be spread island-wide in accordance with the Development Guide Plan. Each NPC will manage between one and four NPPs and they will work as an integrated unit. With the redesign, the NPPs will continue to serve as a contact point for the public and if they need assistance from the Police, they can still go to the NPPs. If you add up the new arrangement and compare with the current arrangement, you will find that indeed the new arrangement regional HQs, NPCs and NPPs will have more service points for the public. Under the present arrangement, we have seven division HQs plus 91 NPPs. There are 98 service points. Whereas when we have six regional HQs, 32 NPCs and 66 NPPs, we will have 104 service points. In other words, we have more centres available for the public to access Police services.

In the current system of the NPPs, the officers actually perform quite routine tasks. For example, when somebody makes a police report, that report will be filed and referred to the division HQ for investigation. The NPP officer does not do investigation. As a result, it does take some time for matters to be investigated. But with the redesign, the cases will be dealt more quickly because the NPCs will have enough officers, about 110 or 120 officers, to actually do the investigation. In other words, they need not refer the report to the HQ.

The NPC patrol officers will also do the investigation and if there are serious cases, for example, serial crime, they will refer to the CID where CID will have specialist officers to deal with them. So let me assure Members that the NPCs and the NPPs will provide adequate services for our public and they will work as an integrated and an integral whole. It is not another layer of bureaucracy in the Police organisation.

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The redesign will benefit the community in many ways. Firstly, the NPCs will be able to serve the crime victims better and faster. Instead of having to be passed from one NPP officer to the investigator and the scene of crime officer, from the HQ, the crime victims will now be served by front line officers handling the entire process. They will be able to process the case faster as they would have greater autonomy.

Secondly, with the resources that the NPCs have, it will be able to better mobilise the community to work out the solutions to common and community problems. The closer involvement of community organisations will ensure that the Police resources will be best tailored to meet the local needs.

The implementation of the NPP system will begin with the one-year pilot programme beginning in October with the first NPC being set up in the present Queentstown Driving Test Centre. After the pilot phase, the Police will extend this concept to the whole of Singapore by the year 2000.

Prof. Chin is concerned about reduced police presence in the neighbourhood and asked whether there will be fewer foot patrols. I think it is understandable that such concerns are expressed, but let me assure him that they are unfounded. Firstly, the traditional roles of NPPs in providing the counter services, proactive patrolling and door-to-door visits, will continue. Secondly, the additional task of fast response and investigation undertaken by the officers at the NPCs will not be at the expense of community policing. NPC officers would be specially tasked also to go on patrols or house visits during a shift or part of a shift. In fact, with the greater autonomy that they enjoy, the NPCs will be better able to deploy the resources according to the crime situation and demand for police services in their area of jurisdiction. This will in fact enhance overall police presence and create a safer and more secure neighbourhood.

We all know that Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world to live in. We did not say this ourselves. Singaporeans feel it. Recently, the World Economic Forum and the International Institute for Management Development rank Singapore first in the area of security. Respondents to the two surveys are confident that persons and properties would be protected in Singapore. Another survey commissioned by the Police last year and covered 1,300 persons showed that 98% of the respondents thought that security of Singapore was either good, very good or excellent, while 86% of them felt that they are safer now than they were five years ago.

There are measures other than the NPPs that would help to fight crime and these include the formation of Neighbourhood Watch Zones in public and private housing estates, and the organisation of crime prevention exhibitions and talks for residents in the neighbourhood. The local community should take greater responsibility for their own safety and security of their precincts.

The success of the NPP system depends as much on the Police as on the willingness of the grassroots leaders to lead the level of community involvement, bonding spirit as well as the involvement of the residents in crime prevention in their own neighbourhood. Police must also find, and be open to, new and better ways of fighting crimes. I agree with Prof. Chin that technology is one thing we can use to help to keep a place safe. As reported in yesterday's papers and also in other articles, Britain, for example, has installed surveillance cameras to help reduce crimes.

I understand Prof. Chin's concern too that in new housing estates, the residents request for NPPs. As part of this review and redesign of the NPC system, the Police will look at the redeployment of some of these NPPs. But let me say that the Police cannot set up an NPP in every new housing estate. It is just not possible. We only have that many people, that much resources and these are all we can spare. We will have to maximise the use of these resources. We cannot afford to have an NPP in every housing estate.

Residents themselves really have to help out in this. They can form Neighbourhood Watch Groups. But I assure him that, in the review of the redeployment, we will see how we can take out NPPs from some of the older estates where the population is declining and shift some of them to the newer housing estates. But again, let me caution that they should not expect one NPP in every new housing estate. I give an example. In Bishan, we have Bishan East and Bishan North and the current NPP is situated in Block 196. There is a new Bishan North and the residents also want to have an NPP. I say that this is just not possible. We could have officers from the Bishan East NPP patrolling the areas in Bishan North. So the same will happen to Woodlands, Sembawang, and other areas too.

I will leave it to my Minister of State to answer the other questions raised by Members.

The Minister of State for Home Affairs (Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee): First, let me take the point that Mr Jeyaretnam has raised. Sir, I think his main point is that there is a need for an independent body to look into Police wrongdoing. Like Mr Kenneth Chen, first, may I question the need to cite, for example, developments in the UK. As we know, developments in UK are quite different, both in terms of the state of the Police as well as the state of law and order.

Sir, I think we should take the situation as we find it in Singapore and look at the track record of what has happened all these years. Let me assure this House that the Police Force has a strict code of conduct and clear guidelines and procedures which ensure that Police officers operate in a professional manner. These guidelines also ensure that officers do not abuse the trust and authority placed on them. Procedures and supervision systems are also in place to ensure that investigations and all contacts with suspects or members of the public are carried out in a reasonable and fair manner. As the Minister for Home Affairs has said, citing surveys, the Police Force in Singapore is well regarded by Singaporeans and indeed even by outsiders, ie, people who have come to Singapore as tourists or even as professionals coming to study our system, and they realise that here is a system that works.

Let me say also, Sir, that both MHA and the Police take a very serious view of any complaint or allegation of assault or violence made against any police officer. If he is found to have abused his powers in any way, this police officer faces disciplinary action and indeed even criminal prosecution. Sir, it has taken many years for us to have achieved the high level of public confidence in the Police Force, especially in terms of its integrity and professionalism. MHA will never allow any black sheep to tarnish the image and integrity of the Police.

But in fact, over the past two years, before Mr Jeyaretnam re-entered this Chamber, I have taken several questions on this topic, ie, instances of alleged police assault or brutality and even a suggestion has been raised before for the need for an independent IID. I had very carefully explained these situations why Police did what it did and I also explained why there was no need for an IID. This of course includes Mohamad Ali's case that Mr Jeyaretnam talked about.

Sir, like I said, there are checks and safeguards to investigate any complaint or allegation. Therefore, the bottomline is, and I have said this before, inside this House and outside, there will be no cover-up for errant officers. Errant officers who are found to be errant after careful investigations will be appropriately dealt with. Investigations by the IID will be impartial, fair and thorough. And indeed, the IID was previously called the IIS, and Mr Jeyaretnam still uses the old term of Internal Investigation Section. Before 1995, it was a section but Police beefed it up. Police saw the need to beef it up both in terms of improving its workings as well as assuring the public that Police takes all these complaints seriously. Therefore, now it has become a separate division which comes under the Inspectorate Department rather than the Manpower Department in the past, signaling therefore to the police officers themselves as well as to the public at large that Police takes this business of ensuring the integrity of its members very seriously.

Should IID be an independent commission? As I have said before in this House, there is no need for such a step. After all, will lay people fully understand the workings of the Police Force in terms of its investigation techniques or in terms of its alleged wrongdoings? Would it not be better, like the present situation, for very seasoned investigators who have done the work on the ground to understand how the system works and how it should not work? And these are the officers who are posted to the IID, experienced officers who will be impartial and fair in the investigation of cases.

I have also said this before. Ultimately, what is important in the uniformed force is that the commander-in-chief must take command of his men and all its operations and that includes discipline and allegations of wrongdoing. Therefore, I think it is important to put the right man in the right place. Here, he is the Commissioner of Police. And if indeed he is the right man for the job, then I say let him do the work. And if you do not trust him to do a good work, either in terms of his integrity or competence, then we should change him. I think this is an important point, Sir. In other words, we have a system in place where the right men are carefully selected for the right jobs and especially in the Police Force where Mr Jeyaretnam rightly points out there is much contact with the public. The Police Commissioner, working a system where honesty and integrity are the hallmarks, must ensure that there is no cover-up. In fact, he will be the first person to want to weed out any errant officer because he would want his organisation to be tip-top so that any allegation by the public of police wrongdoing, he in fact has a vested interest to ensure that investigations are transparent and fair.

Sir, the bottomline therefore is that the system we have works. It is shown by the fact that Singaporeans trust the Police Force. It is shown by the fact that errant police officers have in fact been punished in many ways, some through disciplinary action, others were prosecuted in court openly. I think there is no cover-up. And also by the fact that for the most serious cases, the Attorney-General's inputs are also sought in cases where IID says, "no further action required". AG will come in and see whether that should indeed be the course.

Therefore, Sir, I take this opportunity to once again, which I have done in the past, reassure this House that Police takes this business of reports by the public of errant officers very seriously. We have a system in place that works. We have worked this system. We put the right man in the right job, right down to the Police Commissioner. And I think the indicators will be looked at all the time whether public confidence remains high, whether world polls rate us highly and indeed even in the face of foreign criticisms, as happened in the Michael Fay's case when the West criticised our criminal justice system, including the Police Force. We had, for example, a visiting professor, a former Police Chief, who came to Singapore and looked at our system for a week and at the end, concluded thus, and this is a letter he wrote to President Clinton, "After a long dose of police reality here and the US, and after visiting numerous police agencies in Latin America and Europe, I would rather be investigated by the Singapore Police Force (SPF) than any other agency." 1.45 pm

Let me sum up. The SPF guards its reputation jealously. It will not allow a few bad hats to ruin its name. Any complaint on police wrongdoing will be taken seriously. Investigations will be carried out fairly and impartially.

Mr Jeyaretnam: Sir, may I ask by way of clarification from the Minister of State? I am, however, indebted to him for the long explanation he has given. I appreciate that. The Minister of State says there are guidelines. May I ask him, are there guidelines indeed about how the Police should interrogate accused persons? Because when police officers are questioned, they say there is no guideline, not even as to the length of time that they can continue with their interrogation of suspects. So the answer we get is that there are no guidelines. It is left to them. I would like to know from the Minister of State what guidelines is he talking about.

If I may ask my second question, would the Ministry consider issuing, or at least making available, to the persons who complain a full report of the investigations carried out by the Internal Investigation Section, so that the aggrieved party may feel that his complaint has been properly looked into, and that nothing has been overlooked? The Minister says there is no cover-up. But in the end, the bottom line is - I am sure he will appreciate - the person who has made the complaint must feel that there has been no cover-up.

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, on his first point - I think this point was also covered by Prof. Chin - any allegations of police assault during the investigation is subject to scrutiny by the courts. Police takes very seriously instances when the courts say that in this case there was police wrongdoing so that the statements are not admissible. They will look at the judgments. They will look at what the courts have said what not to be done. In this sense, over the years, police will take a reading from what is admissible in law and they are guided by what is admissible in law and admissible by the courts.

I think this is an important point because we always talk about possible police wrongdoing and investigations. But this is the ultimate barometer and test. Any police officer who conducts an investigation will know that if a confession statement is extracted, there is a possibility that it could be challenged in court. And when he comes to court, he has to explain, he has to produce his diary, he has to convince the court that there was no wrongdoing. Over the years, certainly in terms of what ought to be done and what ought not to be done, police knows the limits.

The second point that Mr Jeyaretnam mentions is: should we furnish the full report to the complainant? Should the schools furnish the fully marked paper to the students?

Mr Jeyaretnam: That is different.

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: I am drawing an analogy. Firstly, the complainant may not fully understand, as I said just know, what has transpired in terms of investigative techniques, in terms of the professional matters that pertain to the workings of any police force. And in his lack of understanding, he may not fully appreciate the fact that indeed much careful work has been done. I think Mr Jeyaretnam, as a lawyer, probably also suffers from this sometimes. When you feel that you have done all your best for your client, you have put in your best work, you have done this, you have done that, and when you furnish the accounts your client says, "What work have you done?" And in spite of the fact that you furnished him a whole list of what you have done, he or she will still be unhappy.

Therefore, like I said, ultimately, it must be the question whether the system works. And I think Mr Jeyaretnam must agree that the system works. It is his prerogative not to agree, but like I have said, if a large percentage of Singaporeans say so and if Singaporeans feel very safe on the road, if outsiders praise us for our system, then it cannot be that it does not. So the IID, and not the IIS which he spoke about, must be allowed to do its job.

Sir, let me first thank all the Members for speaking on this very relevant topic of juvenile delinquency. I have the figures. The good news is that the number of juveniles arrested for crime has, in fact, fallen from 2,574 in 1995 to 2,101 last year. The overall number of arrests has, in fact, come down. And close to 70% of the arrests last year were for theft and related crimes, not very serious crimes. Of course, the bad news all of us know is that fightings have gone up, instances when teens and young people are involved in fighting.

Mr Chng Hee Kok, GPC Chairman, and Mr Choo urged the Government to take a comprehensive approach towards juvenile delinquency. This is, in fact, a good suggestion and this is the approach the Government has taken. Last year, I told the House that the Government would take an inter-Ministry approach towards tackling juvenile delinquency. This is because we realise that juvenile delinquency is not just about crimes, but a host of complex issues such as effective parenting, peer influence, media influence, use of free time and whatever else. This Inter-Ministry Committee on Juvenile Delinquency (IMJD) was formed in April 1996, which I chair, and members are drawn from many sectors - MHA, MCD, MOE, AG's Chambers, Juvenile Court, National Youth Council, National Council of Social Services, social work professionals and MPs are also on board.

I think it is good if I spend a few minutes to outline what the Committee has done. Otherwise people may think that we are taking short-term solutions to the measures that are introduced. This is not the case. The latest host of measures, in fact, come as a package after a long series of other measures that have been put in place. The IMJD adopted a comprehensive three-pronged approach - prevention, enforcement and rehabilitation. This philosophy is, first and foremost, to prevent youths from drifting into delinquency. Next, strict enforcement action against those who create law and order problems and, finally, to provide rehabilitation opportunities for those who are amenable to change. And we have coordinated the introduction of many programmes in the past year; court-driven ones such as boot camp and family conferencing; school-based ones such as expansion of pastoral care and career guidance programmes, and peer support schemes. And also pulling in VWOs, VP mentoring schemes and also enhancing greater network amongst all parties - schools, police, MOE, approved homes, through seminars, guides, and networking.

The list can go on, but I think the first point I want to make is that we have taken this approach of making sure that everybody pulls together. And this is partly why the number of juveniles arrested has come down. But in view of this recent phenomenon of teen fighting, I have asked the IMJD now to focus in this area. And whilst they focus in this area, it will not be at the expense of all the other measures that we have introduced. All the other measures are still in place. We will continue to monitor them and fine-tune them, if necessary. But now the targeted approach is how to cut down on teen fighting. As Members have mentioned, many initiatives have been launched, whether it is in prevention, the ordinary VSC scheme or better liaison or indeed some of the police programmes that we are introducing.

I just want to speak a bit about teen gangs. I think this is the other area that has captured Singaporeans' attention over the past 2-3 weeks, particularly since the announcement of the under-16 ban. Let me first say that I want to thank all Members who have spoken up here in support of the ban on 16-year olds going to tea dances and other outlets where there is public entertainment and dancing. Let me assure all Members that we do not take this measure in an unthinking fashion or desperate fashion. In fact, it is an extension of what has already been done with regard to billiard saloons. On the same basis, the police identified billiard saloons as places where gangs dominate. They go there, they influence others who are unwitting, who are innocent, and then they recruit these members. It is the same with tea dances and other such places where teens may gather, which is a closed setting. In other words, they go there unwittingly because they are young. That is why Mr Choo asked this point. Why 16? Because the police assessment is that 13-15 is a very vulnerable age group, Sec. 1, Sec. 2, Sec. 3. Those of us with teens will know that. They are very impressionable. They are suddenly exposed into the secondary school setting. So we are targetting this group. These people come along unwittingly and then they are influenced by gangs.

Mr Chen says they can be recruited anywhere. That is true. We can ban them from going to void decks and other places. But since tea dance as a setting is identified with the purveying of negative influences, I think we must act. The question is, as Mr Choo and Mr Peh have asked, whether we want to extend it to under-18 or to more places. My response will be, let us wait and see. I think we want to be incremental. Our approach is to be incremental, to see the efficacy of the programme before we even consider whether we should extend it. And the same goes to the other suggestions like night curfew and other places.

Mr Choo has made this point about street wise programme, whether the curfew should be voluntary. We have taken this approach because these youths who are given the opportunity to come on board for this curfew programme are already a targeted group. They are youths who are already found by police to be associating with secret society types. Therefore, the alternative to them coming on board in this programme will be that they are registered under the Registrar of Societies as being members of teen gangs. So we feel that to motivate them, it is better to say, "We give you an option." Most will come on board because here is a programme which helps them and parents are involved. And because it is packaged as a voluntary programme, they will be more motivated and the success rate will be higher.

Sir, I think time is running on. We still have many topics to go. I just want to say that all the suggestions that have been made in this House will be considered, including Mr David Lim's. He actually questioned whether the ban will be effective, quoting a youngster. He said that they can dance anywhere. Indeed, they can dance anywhere. I would encourage it. In fact, I have asked Mr David Lim to organise tea dances or discos in his community centres. Because there is nothing wrong in dancing and, in fact, in these settings, the youngsters will come and vent their excess energies. But what is important is that I do not think the secret society types will want to come to our CCs. So that is the approach we have taken. We know that this is not the solution, but I hope that this latest spate of measures will encourage everybody in Singapore, first of all, to say yes, this is the situation that we need to address; secondly, everybody can play a role where they are; and, thirdly, specifically, how to organise activities which will attract our youths. I think this is the key challenge, how to organise activities that will attract the whole range of our youths, not just those who believe in these activities, but those who may be averse to being organised. I think there are still ways where we can creatively help them feel that they can belong to a gang, but do not belong to a gang that fights and does wrong things but belong to a gang that will do good things. Young people like to belong to gangs. They can be in a football gang or whatever gang. But let us have more gangs in Singapore where there is voluntarism. Several speakers have spoken about the need for more voluntarism and let this be a call to all Singaporeans that if they want to find a cause to champion, champion the cause of our youths in Singapore. 2.00 pm

Mr David T. E. Lim (Aljunied): Mr Speaker, may I be allowed a point of clarification. First of all, let me thank the Minister of State for his very thoughtful answer and I certainly agree with him that we should try to promote good gangs. The question I have for the Minister of State is whether we are dealing by imposing a ban with the symptom of a problem or with the root of the problem. If I may illustrate this. A man buys a pair of shoes two sizes smaller than what he needs and he finds very quickly that his feet hurt a lot. He can go and see a doctor. He can put ointment on the feet. He can soak them in the hot tub every night. But the problem will not go away. His feet will continue to hurt. And his alternative, if nothing else works, is to stop walking. But that is not the solution. The solution is that he needs a bigger pair of shoes.

The point that I was making in my speech the day before was that what we need to do is to deal with the root cause of why there are more street fights and street gangs. Teenagers are at an age where they are impressionable. They are at an age where they need a lot of love and guidance and understanding. The point is that the manifestation of these street gangs means that there is something that has gone awry and askew in the homes and in the family. That perhaps is where we ought to focus the attention. But, in the meantime, to introduce bans and curbs does not solve the problem because beyond the tea dances, and if they were to congregate now in the neighbourhood coffeeshops or in hotel lobbies, will we ban them also from those places? So the fundamental issue is, where will it stop? How much more ointment and, worse still, we are now going to put ointment on 18-year olds as well. Does that solve the problem?

Mr Choo Wee Khiang: (In Mandarin): I think Mr Lim's analogy is very interesting. However, gangsterism and shoes are two different things. While you can change your shoes if they do not fit you, when children turn bad, you cannot change to new children. That is a different issue. Although the new measures may not go to the root of the matter, they are, to a certain degree quite effective in the prevention of juvenile delinquents. So I think Mr Lim should allow our police and the Ministry of Home Affairs to try out these measures and see how effective they are. As suggested by Mr Peh, let them try out for six months and see how these fare. I think that is more reasonable.

The other point is that I read from the newspapers that many young people are spotting tattoos on their body. On tattoos, what kind of attitude should we adopt? How do we control tattoos? Do we need to legislate? If those children with tattoos regret later and want to remove them, what can they do?

An hon. Member: Scrape them.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang: (In Mandarin): The Opposition Member says he can scrape them out. How do we help these tattooed youths to restore their original skin colour? It is not possible to restore to the original skin. Maybe bring them to the Skin Centre to remove the tattoo or do something else. Or should we go through legislation to control tattoos?

The Chairman: I would like to inform hon. Members that we are running behind schedule on this amendment. Mr Chng.

Mr Chng Hee Kok: Sir, I just cannot help but make a short comment in reply to Mr David Lim. That is the purpose of the law in a country. Just because certain people have psychological problems, for example, prone to stealing, it does not mean that we should not have laws against theft. At the end of the day, we have to find deterrents to certain problems. If a person breaches a certain law, that person must be punished. When I support the curfew on teenagers and the ban on under-16s, it is precisely for that purpose. We try to limit the areas which they can go wrong. We do not want them to step out of bounds and become criminals.

Sir, can I move to my next amendment, unless the Minister of State wants to reply?

The Chairman: You can carry on.

Mr Chng Hee Kok: On staged accidents, this question was raised by me in an Oral Question and the Minister of State a few days ago had given a measured reply indicating that police has investigated such complaints. The short answer is that there is really very little the police can do. The legislation is not adequate at the moment. At best, the victims and their families have their lives threatened or endangered on the road. This is very cold comfort. Worse, they would then be fleeced by the workshop operators who actually charge them exorbitant rates for the service. What the answer has conveyed is that since the law is inadequate and the police is not able to do very much, it sends a very bad signal to those perpetrators and culprits. It will simply tell them that the police have been trying to do a lot but actually they cannot do very much.

As a follow up to my Oral Question, I would like the Minister to consider this as a serious issue. We do not need someone to be killed on the road before we take tough action. If the law on touting is not sufficient to arrest this problem, and as one of my Parliamentary colleagues has just suggested to me, maybe we should charge that person for attempted murder if there is evidence because he endangers life on the road and that is a very serious problem.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang: (In Mandarin): Sir, recently there was a spate of fatal traffic accidents occurring in Singapore and we are all very concerned about it. Because these serious road accidents normally involve buses, heavy vehicles and motor cycles, I would like to ask the Minister what the traffic police proposes to do to ensure that there is greater safety on our roads. I have four recommendations for the Minister to consider.

Firstly, we must restrict motor cycles, heavy vehicles and buses. A speed limit should be imposed and enforced strictly. There should be a special device on their vehicles to indicate their travelling speed. Secondly, require buses and heavy vehicles to turn on the head lights at all times. Thirdly, appoint voluntary traffic wardens to help enhance safety awareness and road safety. Fourthly, require motor cyclists to go on the slow lane and ban them from the fast lane when travelling along the expressways. These measures would perhaps help to ensure road safety.

Mr Peh Chin Hua: (In Mandarin): Sir, nowadays child abduction cases are happening very frequently in developing countries. There was a report carried in the Shin Min Daily News on 2nd April 1997 about missing children in Malaysia. Although this report mentioned about Malaysia, it also mentioned about a neighbouring country, and Singapore is the country which is nearest to Malaysia. According to this report, the public affairs department of the Bukit Ampang Police Headquarters in Malaysia made a shocking revelation that in Malaysia there was an average of 12 children reported missing every day. According to statistics, in 1993 there were 4,443 children missing. In 1994, there were 3,955. In 1995, there were 3,786 and in the first ten months of 1996 there were 3,621 children reported missing. Most of these missing children were girls and children from the neighbouring countries. The most infuriating part is that some of these children were adopted by the criminal syndicates who disfigured them so that they would not be recognised by their parents and they amputated part of their limbs to make them beggars to beg for money.

Among these serious cases of child abduction in Malaysia, the most seriously affected state is Johor. According to the police statistics, among the 400 missing children found, 30 of them are from neighbouring countries. Of these 30 children, I am not aware how many are from Singapore as it was not specified. Therefore, I feel that we should look into this problem very seriously.

I remember there were two children from Singapore who were reported missing since six to seven years and they could not be traced. I have a few suggestions to make with regard to this matter. First, we should have more stringent laws against child abduction. Punishments should be the same as for kidnapping cases, ie, they could be sentenced to death or to be imprisoned for life. Secondly, when there is a report of missing child, the police should immediately alert the immigration checkpoints so that these children would not be taken out of Singapore. Thirdly, for children below the age of 12, I suggest that the photograph in the passport should be changed every two years because the physical appearance of children varies all the time. Fourthly, we should have some self-protection lessons conducted in kindergartens and primary schools so that our young children know how to protect themselves from possible abductors.

The Chairman: Mr Jeyaretnam, can I ask you to make your points briefly, as we are running short of time?

Mr Jeyaretnam: Yes, Sir, you have said that we are running short of time and I will try and be very brief.

The Chairman: Thank you. 2.15 pm

Mr Jeyaretnam: I am again in pursuit of people's power and people's rights. This time I ask the Ministry whether it is time that we had a Prisons Board set up of responsible individuals outside in the community who will listen to complaints from the prisoners. I know we have visitors but I want a body that will take decisions and see that they are implemented. At the moment, Sir, when it comes to disciplinary control of prisoners, everything is left in the hands of the Superintendent. And offences are classified into minor and major offences or misconduct, as they may be termed in the Act, and some of these sentences that are handed out by the Superintendent are quite severe. I think it is time we set up a Prisons Board, as has often been claimed that we are transparent, transparency in the way that we treat people who are charged with offences, even though if they are in the prisons.

I would ask the Ministry to consider whether it will think of setting up a Prisons Board to investigate complaints against prison authorities or prison officials.

The Chairman: I will ask the Frontbench to give its response at 2.20 pm. Discussion on this amendment will end at 2.30 pm.

Mr Kenneth Chen Koon Lap: Sir, it is good to know that the trend of drug abuse cases is going down. But it is still a very serious problem and we have to eradicate it at all costs.

The recent enhancement of punishment meted out to repeated drug abusers is a move in the right direction. Can the Minister let us know the result of this move? And would the Minister enlighten us on whether there is plan to further enhance this punishment should this be found to be effective?

I am also concerned about the high number of hardcore addicts who have no apparent chance of being rehabilitated. I would like to know what is in store for them and how they are being dealt with.

The Chairman: Mr Chay is not here. Mr Chng.

Mr Chng Hee Kok: Sir, I have spoken before in this House about why Government has to be competitive and why we must privatise services, wherever possible. On this particular subject, on the MHA, my stand is no different, Sir.

I mentioned in my speech earlier about the manpower shortage and suggested that officers should be deployed to undertake essential policing jobs rather than non-essential ones. The Minister has already made mention of the fact that we should not have Police officers, especially Traffic Police officers, just going around patrolling the streets and enforcing compliance with rules and regulations. If the HDB and URA can have car park wardens just to issue summonses, I do not see a need for skilled, well-trained Police officers doing such a job. On a broader basis, in the Ministry of Home Affairs itself there are other such services, and in some countries, even the prisons service has been privatised, MHA also runs the Driving Testing Centre and so on.

Sir, I urge that, in view of the labour shortage which the Ministry is facing, we like to see more Police on the road, keeping it safe for Singaporeans, that it tries its best to privatise as much of these non-essential services as possible.

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, let me first reply to Mr Chng.

Sir, indeed, I gave a full reply in the House to Mr Chng that day saying that more can be done. It is not a situation where we throw up our hands and say nothing can be done and therefore the perpetrators can carry on what they are doing. We said that there is difficulty in getting evidence but how to tackle the problem, what is the root of the problem, work with the motor insurance industry, and work with the workshops. And indeed this is what Traffic Police is doing - talking to the motor insurance industry, in particular to see, for example, whether we can set up centres where accident vehicles can go for verification, so that there is no question later on as to whether or not a particular damage was due to the accident and also setting up a system of authorised workshops so that those who really send in fraudulent claims, or conduct staged accidents, can be blacklisted.

That is the point I want to make. Let us not throw up in despair. We are doing what we can. But certainly if we find proof of a staged accident, like I said in the House, the penalties can be very severe.

On road safety, Mr Choo Wee Khiang has highlighted the fact that there have been several accidents on our roads recently and the need for us to continue to be very diligent in our efforts, both in terms of Traffic Police and more so, in terms of Singaporeans, to take care on the roads, whether you are a motorist, a cyclist or a pedestrian.

Let me just, because of time, highlight some of the recent improvements made by Police. For example, Police, will intensify public education efforts on road safety. In addition, Traffic Police and LTA are reviewing road safety measures in accident-prone areas. Possible measures include improving the lighting conditions of the road, adjusting the timing of traffic lights, because some of these accidents took place near traffic junctions, and relocating pedestrian crossings. So these are the focused moves that Traffic Police will do in conjunction with LTA.

He has made a few suggestions: why not install sounders for motorcycles? I think it is quite difficult to monitor. There are so many motorcycles on the road, unlike the vans where there are these beepers with a light. I think that is very clear because the light is on top of the vehicle.

Another suggestion that he mentioned was for buses to light up. I think that can be considered. I will ask Traffic Police to look at it to see whether making buses light up will help road safety.

His third suggestion was how to encourage more volunteers to help man road safety. We have got very good VSC officers who are Traffic Police officers. Also there is a scheme where Traffic Police, together with AA, have got people who are on the roads looking out for good drivers. So we want to encourage good behaviour, besides penalising bad ones.

On abducted children, Mr Peh has made a string of suggestions. First, whether we should treat abduction of children as kidnapping to deter potential abductors. In practice, whether a case is considered kidnapping or abduction hinges on whether ransom is demanded. If ransom is demanded, it will be considered kidnapping. So it is up to AG to frame the appropriate charge, depending on whether ransom is demanded.

Secondly, he suggests that Police immediately alert the Immigration Department on receiving information on kidnapped children. I would like to inform him that this is already being done. Once it is confirmed that a child has been kidnapped, Police officers handling the case will immediately telephone the Immigration Duty Officer at the various checkpoints to prevent the child from being spirited out of the country.

Thirdly, he says, why not require a change of photographs for children in their passports every two years. I think we leave it to the parents. Because after all it is for their convenience that they do it themselves diligently, otherwise they may have difficulties getting in and out either in Singapore or at other countries. To make it mandatory, I think, will inconvenience too many people. Right now they can easily do it by bringing a photograph and the passport to the Immigration Department.

Finally, he talks about conducting programmes in kindergartens and primary schools to teach our young children how to protect themselves against potential abductors. This is not really MHA's matter but something is being done along those lines. Police have published some books, Mr Policeman Series, Constable Ah Chai column and Young Generation magazine.859

There are also crime prevention proficiency badges and regular talks and visits by Police.

Mr Jeyaretnam takes the same tack, asking for some lay people, outside people, to be involved to hear complaints. As he himself has said, visiting Justices of the Peace visit our institutions at least once a month, and these are all respected members of the community. They come sometimes unannounced, and they go anywhere they want. There is free access. Very often, they will take complaints and they will inspect the conditions of the prisons and look into the welfare of the prisoners. Those are the two areas. And whatever complaint is registered. It is sent to the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Home Affairs.

In fact, there is already a system of lay involvement. I do not think there is a need for more. It ultimately depends on the people who run the system and the system itself. Similar to the answer I gave earlier, the system works - appoint the right person to the right job. The Director of Prisons oversees 17 institutions. The Superintendent runs his own institution and he is statute-bound to make sure that it is well run. So I think there is no need to institute such a separate body.

Mr Wong Kan Seng: Just to supplement what my Minister of State has said in reply to Mr Jeyaretnam. He does not seem to be interested in the answers we want to give him. After raising the question, he disappears. That means either he raises it perfunctorily, or he does not believe in what he is asking, or he is simply not interested in the answer.

Whether it is an independent group of people who visit the prisons, whether it is an independent election commission, whether it is an independent Police investigation unit, the question does not lie in an independent commission or board, or whatever it is. The question lies in whether the people who run the system are honest and have integrity. I think Singapore has a good reputation, and that reputation must be jealously guarded, and that reputation is that we have an efficient, honest and transparent system. Nobody can get away with murder. If Mr Jeyaretnam has any case that he thinks that we ought to investigate, I think he should surface it. Raise it, and we will look into it, but do not cast a smear on our system. That would do Singapore an injustice. That would do all Singaporeans an injustice, because our investors will then say, "What sort of place is this?". Fortunately, investors do not have that kind of impression. They come, they see, they know what is going on and they always give Singapore high marks for the system that we have. So stop talking nonsense - that is my advice to him. Be today's man! Be relevant, not be like an old gramophone record, playing the same old tune with a hole in the groove, which keeps repeating itself. Be the compact disc! Be a digital audio tape player! This is a new technology. So be relevant! I urge him.

On the two questions of drug enforcement raised by Mr Kenneth Chen, let me assure him that we will do everything possible to try to keep the drug situation under control, which, in fact, it is. Over the last two years since the comprehensive measures that we have undertaken, the drug situation has improved somewhat. But we know that there are certain people who cannot get away from drugs. They will go into DRC time and again, despite the help, rehabilitation and the counselling that we have given them. So for these people, we have decided that they will be in for a long haul.

The next time we amend the law, we are going to make it mandatory, caning plus jail sentence, and not in a DRC. DRC's life is too good for them. It is like home-coming, back to meeting their own community. They will be in prison if they are caught the third time for an opiate drug offence. Five to seven years, three to six strokes of the cane, or seven to 13 years, six to 12 strokes of the cane if they re-offend, ie, after they had been charged the first time for committing a hardcore offence and re-offend after serving the sentence.

Although the drug situation has improved a bit, we are concerned about the increase in the number of Ecstasy abuses. You have seen the CNB has gone all out to deal with this problem. We have urged managements of nightclub operations, lounges, etc, to be careful - do not allow the clients to rave around after taking Ecstasy; do not sell them plain water. They know there is a problem, they better fix it! Help us to fix it. And if they do not, then their licence will be taken away. And for Ecstasy traffickers, we are going to make it as part of the presumption law, that if they carry a certain amount, we will determine what it is, we will presume that they are trafficking in Ecstasy, and we also do that for Ice.

So be warned! Please do not trifle with the law. CNB is very serious in making sure that our place is safe and crime-free and drug-free for our children.

On the question of privatisation of services, let me again assure Mr Chng that with the review of our Police functions, some of the non-essential, actually non-Police functions, will not be carried out by the Police. So catching snakes, clearing dead animals, for example, that would not be done by the Police. I think there are proper agencies to do that. They will concentrate on the core Police functions: crime prevention, crime control, investigation and generally helping to maintain law and order.

For functions that we are now doing which can be privatised, we will continue to do so. For example, Traffic Police has already done away with towing of vehicles, that is being left to the private sector. Similarly, driving centres, test centres, that is now also being done by the private sector. The last centre that we have, Kampong Ubi, we have already privatised it. Now somebody else is running it, not the Police. 2.30 pm

Mr Chng Hee Kok: Sir, the Minister is a very lucky man. I think generally, Members of this House will understand his manpower problems and certainly will like to see more money for his Ministry. On this note, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (2). Mr Chew.

Mr Chew Heng Ching (East Coast): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head Q of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code QC 1500.

Sir, much has been said and debated in this House about juvenile delinquency, gang fights and youth violence. The trend can be worrying and many of my constituents have expressed their concern to me.

Sir, I believe the problem is more deep-seated, more deep-rooted than before. We must identify the root of the problem early and nip it in the bud. Sir, I believe that to tackle this problem, we should not leave it to the police alone. I think a large part of the Government has to be involved. Besides, the Ministry of Home Affairs, other Government Ministries should also play a role in identifying and solving this problem. I have identified the following Ministries. Ministry of Community Development, whose responsibility is the promotion of family values and community support system; Ministry of Education, the influence of the school environment on youth behaviour, slackness in school discipline, all these have implications on youth violence today; MITA, mass media may have undesirable influence on youth if censorship is not well under control; MINDEF, I believe that the two and the two-and-a-half years spent in National Service would have a bearing on youth behaviour, particularly depending on the company he mixes with; and the Ministry of Labour, I believe the omnipresence of foreign labourers in Singapore, to some extent, has undesirable social influence on our youth.

Sir, I am therefore proposing that the Government seriously look into forming a special multi-Ministry task force to identify the root causes of this problem and come up with solutions. Sir, the problem is a serious one and has wide ranging implications. I am therefore proposing that this task force be chaired by at least a Permanent Secretary and the best person is the Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Home Affairs, with senior representatives from Ministry of Community Development, Ministry of Education, MITA, MINDEF and Ministry of Labour. I urge the Minister to consider this proposal seriously.

Mr Davinder Singh (Bishan-Toa Payoh): Sir, much of what I intended to say has already been said in this House about youth violence. There is only one other point which I do not think has been raised yet and this is another dimension to the problem which may have potentially far graver consequences arising from youth violence and teen gangs. And it is this. Some youth gangs may wittingly or otherwise organise themselves along racial lines and we know where the problem lies, if that happens. Because if you have fight between two gangs of different races that will turn up its own set of problems, particularly in Singapore. The difficulty with that is not only the fight between the two gangs but the whole issue of youth violence will be lost sight of in the larger context of the racial dimension. All sorts of anxiety will arise and parents who ought to be focusing on their wayward children will be distracted by the racial element in the fight. And therein lies a major difficulty which, I think, we ought to address. Because the moment there is a racial element, the neighbourhoods that we are so accustomed to will no longer be safe because there will be distrust and suspicions will set in.

What we really need to do is to look towards the long term. Today, it is a youth violence problem. But the moment you have gangs of two different races taking each other on, there will be complexities which we will have great difficulty handling. The way the Police will investigate the particular incident will also give rise to difficulties because there will be all sorts of rumours about preference towards one particular gang because of the affiliation to one race, etc. This is a difficulty which transcends but arises from youth violence and I think the Ministry ought to pay some attention to it.

Mr Chiam See Tong (Potong Pasir): Sir, violence among youths is not a new thing. In fact, in America, in the 1950s, they had this problem. This problem is highlighted in such films as "Rebel Without a Cause", starring the famous James Dean and another film called "Black Board Jungle", highlighted this problem in that country. Now, we are experiencing this problem here in Singapore.

As has been pointed out, the disturbing thing about this is that these boys and girls who are involved in these fights are not true gangster elements and are not members of secret societies. But many of them in fact come from good homes. I know of two teenagers, one a boy of 12 and the other a girl of 16, both come from good homes. Yet they were arrested by the Police for rioting. The problem is with the parents. These parents are both working. This is perhaps the genesis of teenage delinquency. Both parents are out of their home most of the time and they do not have time for their children. The children are unsupervised and they get into bad company and also into trouble.

Sir, the Government can assist to alleviate this problem by giving assistance. I can think of three areas in which the Government can assist. Firstly, there must be more policing in the likely trouble spots, such as shopping areas, McDonald restaurants, entertainment places and places where teenagers also tend to hang out. I believe the police presence is very important. They represent the authority. This will deter the kids from getting into fights. These days, the Police do not seem to be around when they are most needed. I heard this mentioned at least more than once.

I hope the Police can deploy more of its uniformed personnel in places where youths congregate. This will surely have a deterrent effect on the youngsters. As long as the youths are made aware of the police presence, they shall be afraid to get into fights because they know they will be arrested. Police presence is definitely an important factor in helping to solve this problem. The importance of Police presence to deter crimes among youths has been highlighted by Assoc. Prof. Chin Tet Yung earlier on.

The second area in which the Government can help is to provide more amenities in housing estates. The CCs have to be spruced up and made relevant to today's youngsters in order to attract them.

Thirdly, the Police should revive their Boys' Clubs. In the past, the Police did organise Boys' Clubs. I do not know what has happened to them now. They all seem to have been scrapped. This idea of Boys' Club should be revived. At least if the boys go to these clubs, we know that they are supervised and not get into bad company. These are perhaps some of the measures that Government can do to help eradicate youth violence.

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: Sir, I thank the Members for speaking. First, Mr Chew Heng Ching's point about whether or not there is a need for a task force. He makes this as a suggestion. I do not know whether he was in the House just now when I talked about the Inter-Ministry Committee on Juvenile Delinquency, which I chair, which draws together a lot of agencies. But I think the point he made is whether or not there is a need for a task force at the working level, chaired by the PS, and drawing in more Ministries focusing specifically on youth violence or youth fighting. I think it is a matter that not only the Home Affairs can consider. In fact, IMJD is a spring-off from the IMC Committee under the Ministry of Community Development. Many Members have brought up this point about the need to look deeper into the problem. I am sure when Mr Tarmugi takes the floor for his Ministry's cut, this matter will arise again.

The next point is Mr Davinder Singh's point which is a good point. Mr Davinder Singh's questions whether or not there are racial overtones to teen gangs and whether teen gangs of different races are fighting each other. The total number of rioting cases involving youths from different races increased from 11 in 1993 to 27 in 1996. Despite this, it remains a small proportion of the total number of rioting cases involving youths. For example, the 27 cases in 1996 accounted for only 12% of all cases last year. But, nevertheless, I think the point Mr Davinder has made is a point worth taking which I will ask the Police to continue monitoring. Also of course, it is not only a case of gangs of one race fighting gangs of another race. Very often, they are mixed and very often fights arise not so much because of racial animosity but either petty quarrels or territorial disputes. Those that sparked off fights are not racial in overtones. That I think is heartening. But we must be vigilant.

Mr Chiam talks about whether or not youth engaging in the teen violence is a passing phase. He talks about "Rebel Without A Cause" in America. But the point is whether or not it is a passing phase. Perhaps, it is with some youths. But if the numbers are large enough, I think we should take care. But his other point is more interesting where he says we should saturate the ground, put more policemen all over the place, particularly where teens gather, like McDonalds. Sir, if we did that, then what he claims is the situation where if you need the police they are never around will indeed come true. Because then, you are deploying all your forces all over the place. It is like in defence of a locality. You do not spread them all over the place. You target them in places of vulnerability and that is the current approach. I think the approach is right. Because like Boat Quay, for example, if we identify it as a place where increased police presence can meet a particular need, we will do it. But certainly not by putting them all over the place.

Then the last point he made is why not have more Police Boys' Clubs or revive them. The Police Boys' Clubs have not been disbanded. What has happened is that they are now under the People's Association. They have taken a larger role and they are called the Boys' Clubs. So they have not disappeared. But under this structure, where the CCs are involved, through the PA, they will reach out to a larger group. And indeed, if your suggestion is that the Boys' Clubs should also play a role in creating more good gangs, then I think this is a suggestion worth considering.

Mr Zainul Abidin Rasheed (Cheng San): Sir, can I seek a quick clarification from the Minister of State about teen gangs and racial undertones? Has he a breakdown for the different racial groups and different teen gangs?

Assoc. Prof. Ho Peng Kee: I do not have the details with me right now. If you want the details, you can put in a Question for Oral Answer.

Mr Chew Heng Ching: Sir, I agree with the Minister of State he alone cannot form the task force. But I hope that he will influence his colleagues in the other Ministries to consider this. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $1,020,198,860 for Head Q ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $907,840,000 for Head Q ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head P -

The Chairman: Head P - Ministry of Health. Amendment No. (1), Mr Chen. 2.45 pm

Mr Bernard Chen (West Coast): Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head P of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, with the rising expectations of our people, the medical health expectations have also gone up. And with the medical facilities now being upgraded, we are having very new hospitals not only in the public sector but also in the private sector. These hospitals are equipped with more sophisticated diagnostic equipment and other facilities. The private sector has also followed suit with new medical centres. Generally, patients now demand a higher standard of medical care. I have heard of examples of children who suffer from a mild cold, for example, have been asked to be confined to the hospital for two days for observation.

The Government has announced that it will increase the intake of medical students to NUS, from 150 to 200 per year. My question is: with this demand of better medical care, whether this is in fact sufficient to meet the needs of both the public and private sectors? One of the factors that will go for better health care could be more quality time spent by doctors in treating the patients. It is not just the number of consultations, but the duration of consultations. And depending on the complexity, this duration can vary from patient to patient, and the lack of attention by consultants, specialists or doctors to these patients will be interpreted as a deterioration of medical service.

The other aspect of medical personnel in terms of better health care is even more important. I refer to the nurses. The nurses are the front line for both care during hospitalisation and the post-illness recovery. Although the number of nurses has increased in the last 10 years, there is consistent demand for more nurses. And what we have seen in Singapore now is an increasing number of nurses from foreign countries. These nurses come from different cultural backgrounds and they have different habits and different values. The way they treat our patients is very different from those of Singaporean nurses, and there have been an increasing number of complaints in both Government and private hospitals that these foreign nurses are not well equipped to handle some of our Singaporean patients. The argument is that because Singaporeans do not want to be nurses, therefore we have to resort to importing them from other countries.

But this cannot be completely true because we find a lot of Singaporean nurses working overseas. In fact, quite a number of them work in the Middle East and in other countries. So the question arises as to whether, in fact, we are paying our nurses competitive rates to entice them to stay and work in Singapore. We cannot equate these nurses' remuneration to those of equivalent qualification in other parts of the civil service. Because nursing is actually a vocation. If you want tender loving care, not everybody has that, and money cannot buy that. The person has to feel that she can provide this kind of care. And if she can get a good reward in providing the care, I think she will stay in Singapore.

I would like to ask the Minister what are we doing for these very important categories of people, doctors and nurses, in particular, nurses. I think many of our troubles in the medical service start with nursing care. The way that we can improve the nursing care will also go towards improving medical health care.

Sir, on professional standards of doctors and nurses, this again relates to the same rising expectations of medical health care because the patients are now better off. They are paying more for medical service and they want higher quality of service, especially the quality time spent on each patient. This demand will continue to increase with better facilities and higher medical charges.

I am a bit disturbed by recent cases of negligence in both the private and public sectors. I understand, of course, that the majority of doctors and nurses are providing good service, but there will always be some who do not. And the question arises: how do we police this and to make sure that these so-called black sheep are removed?

In a profession like the doctors, we have the Singapore Medical Council who would entertain complaints, address complaints to boards of inquiries, but invariably the majority of these members are also doctors themselves. This is not new in the profession. If you talk about the legal profession, the same thing applies. Indeed, in any other profession, the peers appear to have to judge their own members. I think in order for justice to be seen to be done visibly, we should allow for more open inquiries, drawing more lay people in. I understand that in the proposed Medical Registration (Amendment) Bill coming up, this will be addressed. But this is also part of the way of improving our medical and health care services, because if we can minimize the incidents of malpractice and negligence, then our Singaporeans will have better confidence in the quality of the medical service provided by both our public and private sectors.

The Chairman: Mr Goh, you can take your three topics together.

Mr Goh Choon Kang (Marine Parade): Sir, with your permission, I will speak on the first two topics, and then on the third cut.

Sir, on fees and charges, I understand that the hospitals are required to recover replacement cost of equipment and furniture. I do not know whether they are also required to recover part of the building cost as well. I would like to ask the Minister how does this requirement impact on the fees and charges that the hospitals are collecting from the patients.

On the second topic, this year the total operating subvention to restructured hospitals and voluntary welfare organisations (VWOs) is $586.87 million. Out of this amount, only a fraction goes to aid the many voluntary welfare organisations and the amount is $31.61 million. The Government is encouraging more VWOs to shoulder the responsibilities of looking after the aged, the aged sick, the disabled, even the dying, through the setting up of nursing homes, community hospitals, hospices and so on.

Currently, the Government helps the VWOs to set up such an institution by supporting them 90% of their capital cost, but only 50% of their running cost. As such, many of these volunteers in the VWOs, as some of my colleagues in this House have already pointed out, have to run about raising funds all the time. The running cost of a medium-sized nursing home, for example, I was told with 150-200 beds, is more than $1 million a year. So with 50% Government grant, the volunteers will still have to raise more than half a million dollars a year.

Sir, with the greying of our population and with more VWOs expected to get involved in such voluntary work, fund raising will become more and more taxing on the part of the volunteers. So I would think that the Government should seriously raise the funding level, especially for the operating cost.

I will now speak on the third topic in Mandarin, Sir.

(In Mandarin): Mr Chairman, in the past few years, the Government has taken a series of measures to help the development of traditional Chinese medicine in Singapore. I think this is a move in the right direction. We must gradually help Chinese medicine to go for professionalism and standardisation, thereby enhancing the standard of Chinese medicine, and eventually eradicate the existence of bad Chinese physicians in Singapore.

In Singapore, Chinese medicine and Chinese physicians provide a very important service to the people. Many ordinary people are using such services. A lot of voluntary organisations are providing free medical services using traditional Chinese medicine and methods of treatment. So standardisation and professionalism in this area is very important, because it will eventually provide for the healthy development of Chinese medicine.

When we are endeavouring to develop Singapore into a regional medical centre, we should not confine ourselves to Western medicine. I believe that Chinese medicine can also play a role in this aspect. I hope the Minister can enlighten us on the various measures that have been taken over the past few years, and what is the progress we have made so far.

Mr Peh Chin Hua: (In Mandarin): Sir, I agree with Mr Goh Choon Kang that many people who are concerned with traditional Chinese medicine are interested to know what action has been taken by the Ministry of Health to implement the recommendations put up by the special committee on traditional Chinese medicine led by Dr Aline Wong. I am very interested to know what kind of efforts has been put in to promote the use of Chinese Medicine. We know that the Ang Mo Kio Acupuncture Centre at the Ang Mo Kio Community Hospital has received overwhelming response from the public. Some patients have to be put on the waiting list for months before they could receive treatment there. Will the Ministry of Health look into the possibility of working together with the bodies of Chinese physicians to set up a second Chinese Traditional Medicine and Acupuncture Centre to meet the needs of these patients? 3.00 pm

Previously, the Ministry of Health was planning to set up a cancer research centre which was supposed to include the study of the curative effects of traditional Chinese medicine. Has this plan been materialised? I believe the implementation of this plan will definitely help to promote the development of traditional Chinese medicine in Singapore.

Today, with the birth of "Dolly" which was cloned from an adult cell, this biotechnological breakthrough can be said to be a great success in the science of biological reproduction of lives. It is a real breakthrough. Some people are overjoyed and regarded this as a new discovery in the study of human biology. Yet others are worried. The parliaments of many countries are now discussing this matter. According to reports, the UK Parliament has passed legislation to prohibit experiments in human cloning. The USA Government has stopped the use of Commonwealth Foundation funds to assist the human cloning scientific research plans. The parliaments of various countries, including Germany, Italy, Brazil and Argentina, have also urged their governments to prohibit experiments on human cloning.

From public opinions and reactions from different quarters, it is apparent that many people have much to worry over this new scientific discovery.

Sir, personally I am positive towards this particular scientific research. I feel that our Ministry of Health should not prohibit the experiments on human cloning. We could set some rules and regulations to provide for this type of research. I am not a medical expert nor a biologist. But I would like to bring out an example to look at this scientific research from another angle. I believe Singaporeans who are at their 40s or 50s should be able to recall that during the 60s and 70s, the USA and the former Soviet Union were competing to be the leader in space technology. During that time the Soviet Union was the first to land an unmanned spacecraft on the surface of the moon, while the American astronaut Neil Armstrong was the first man to set foot on the moon.

I can remember that, at that time, people from all over the world were praising them for their achievements. But at the same time, some other people were worried that this might lead to the explosion of space war. At that time, almost all the newspapers carried comments that the advancement of space technology might bring disasters to mankind and the world would be destroyed. Some even thought that the world was ending very soon. At that time, I was still young. I harboured the impression that the development of space technology was very frightening. I thought that we were done for. Yet today, it is quite evident that the development of space technology not only does not bring the world to an end, but has actually benefited mankind. It has provided us with a lot of convenience. Our mobile handphone, fax machines, Internet, satellite television, unmanned spacecraft, etc. are benefits brought to us from space technology. Recently, a USA spacecraft has successfully landed on Mars. It will help mankind to further explore the mystery of life in outer space and provide very valuable information to us.

Just imagine, years ago, advancement in space technology had brought about great fear to mankind. This illustrates the point that whenever there is a new invention we should view it in a positive manner and accept it rather than reject or ban it. Yes, unlike other kinds of technology, human cloning will no doubt create complications in human ethics, moral and legal issues, family and social problems. This could be solved with sensible humane regulations, based not on court-room decisions but through broad enlightened public debates.

Just as in the prehistoric times human beings did not have any family, moral or legal concepts. If anthropologists, sociologists, philosophers and lawyers today can apply their intelligence and creativity like the biologists and medical experts to set up a standard for human ethics and moral legal issues, this will serve as a new challenge for them in finding a solution to create a model or formula to accommodate a new kind of family and society formation. Then like space technology, human cloning should be viewed positively. I think human cloning may be beneficial to mankind in future. Of course, any kind of changes will meet with resistance. This will require us to change our mindset. We have to be farsighted, courageous and on top of it, we must have the scientific power of persuasion.

At the moment, the Ministry of Health has not stated its stand on human cloning. I hope that our Ministry of Health will not follow the countries in the world in forbidding the cloning of human cells. I think we should go for a set of sound and rational rules and regulations to allow this research to go on. Researchers and experts in the medical field from other countries can be invited to come to Singapore to further their research in this field. Of course, in regulating, we must have some sound basis to provide for which categories of people to participate in the experiment, for example, they must be married, above a certain age, or have good reasons to be cloned, etc. I think these are points which we can further discuss and study.

The Chairman: Order. I propose to take the break now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and will take the Chair again at 3.35 pm.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 3.08 pm until 3.35 pm. Sitting resumed at 3.35 pm

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head P (cont.) -

Dr Michael Lim Chun Leng (Cheng San): Sir, as Singapore develops, the health services also develop. As a result, there is increasing specialisation within the medical services. Increasing medical specialisation results in an increased availability of treatment choices. This will not only improve the quality of health care services that the average Singaporean can get access to but it will also help Singapore develop into a regional centre of medical excellence.

However, increasing medical specialisation, especially within our restructured hospitals, has also resulted in some undesirable trends. In SGH alone, it seems as though there is almost a separate department for every specialty available. One unintended effect of this is the fragmentation of care, as patients often have more than one medical pre-existing condition. For example, if a patient who has diabetes mellitus and has multiple complications of diabetes mellitus and is admitted to SGH for chest infection, he will pose a dilemma because he not only has chest infection but has other complications of diabetes such as disease of the heart arteries, eye problems, kidney damage, nerve complications and poor leg circulation. If the patient is admitted to the department for respiratory diseases, it will not be unlikely that there will be referrals to other doctors to manage his problems. Each referral to another department will result in additional consultation costs. Even though there may be a doctor, who is overall in charge of the patient, more often, because of the differentiation into specialised departments, it is likely that the other areas will be left to other specialists. When this patient is discharged from the hospital, he will have to see the eye specialist at the National Eye Centre for his eye problem and see the kidney specialist and the chest specialist at SGH. He will also have to go to the National Heart Centre to see the heart specialist. If he is not already on follow-up in the SGH by the neurological department for his nerve problems, he may also have to make a trip to the Neuroscience Centre at Tan Tock Seng Hospital. As a result of these multiple visits, the financial cost and time spent will be substantial.

We do not deny that there will be a need to have patients to be seen by medical specialists of different specialties, but some of these problems are simple enough to be managed by a generalist. Also, medical officers and house officers who work in these departments will also have a narrow exposure to the disciplines of medicine and have less grounding in general medicine. This will also give them less working experience and exposure to the wide spectrum of medical problems. It will also increase the tendency to cross-refer as doctors become very focused within their own disciplines even at a very early stage.

Excessive referrals also put an increased strain on doctors who already work extremely hard in the hospitals. Precious time is taken out for tending to minor medical problems which can be managed by any other doctor. Costs will also increase because by having more departments, there will be more administrative staff required and there will be more office space required. The Ministry will have to balance the need for specialisation and the need to optimise our resources. The unintended result of increase in health care cost resulting from the differentiation of the specialist departments must be studied.

There are no simple solutions but one suggestion that I have for the Ministry, which they may wish to consider, is that they may want to have a hospital handbook on "Common Medical Problems in the Hospital" for doctors in the hospitals, which will lay down the investigations and the treatments for common medical problems seen in hospitals. This will minimise the need for unnecessary referrals for simple problems in the restructured hospitals. Such a medical handbook on common medical conditions in the hospital will also allow optimal cost-effective choices in the investigations and treatments. Addressing these concerns will not only contain the costs of health care but it will also increase the efficiency of our health service, both from the provider's and the recipient's viewpoint.

The Chairman: Mr Choo is not here. Dr Lim, would you like to continue with your next topic?

Dr Michael Lim Chun Leng: Sir, health care services is an important area of concern for all Singaporeans. As demand for health care services increases in the next millennium, the Ministry will have to formulate policies to maximise the potential of our limited resources. I would like to know how the Ministry will meet some of these challenges.

Firstly, the national centres. The establishment of national centres for various medical specialties will improve the standards of care within these specialties. Many of these national centres will also have expensive diagnostic and therapeutic equipment. How does the Ministry prevent a Government or restructured hospital from duplicating resources and equipment already available in the national centres or in other hospitals? I am not only referring to MRI machines but also to CT scanners, ultra-sound machines, lasers and other expensive equipment. Is the mechanism an ad hoc informal mechanism? Or is there a structured formal mechanism? The Ministry must define the role of national centres and corresponding disciplines in the hospitals clearly to avoid straining our limited medical resources, especially medical manpower.

This brings me to my second point - medical manpower. It was not too long ago that the Ministry had said that the number of medical students would be restricted and the number of overseas universities, with recognisable basic medical degrees, would also be restricted. Within the short space of a few years, the Ministry has now reversed its stand and said that manpower needs are insufficient. Certainly, it is not easy to make manpower projections but the Ministry has a long record of managing the manpower needs and one would expect their projections will not be too far off the mark.

The concern now is whether the current response to increase the medical student intake and to take in more foreign doctors will result in excessive manpower in the near future. The Ministry should explain to Members of the House and give us a better picture of the rationale for such changes in manpower projections.

Thirdly, service conditions in hospitals. The terms of service and remuneration in the restructured hospitals keep changing. The remuneration system has been modified numerous times in the last 10 years. I am certain that the Ministry's intentions for these changes are good. But when the system keeps changing very often, it affects the morale of doctors and they leave the service. The severe shortage in medical manpower is felt mainly in the Government and restructured hospitals. Unless service conditions improve, this will continue to be so, no matter how many new doctors and foreign doctors are employed. Service conditions must be improved. It goes beyond financial recognition. Doctors want their work to be recognised, whether it is medical treatment administered or research papers. Junior doctors get demoralised when credits go to others for work they perform. It is not pay alone but also the need to be treated fairly, to be heard and for efforts to be recognised. Then he will feel that his contribution to the health services is appreciated. A happy doctor is also likely to remain in the restructured hospital service.

Lastly, leadership role of Ministry of Health. The Minister has said that SGH is a private entity and it is not part of the civil service and in fact all the administrative decisions are taken by the management and board of directors of SGH. If this similarly applies to all the other restructured hospitals, how does the Ministry maintain its supervisory role either directly or through HCS? If the Government is providing significant development and operating expenditure and subventions to the various restructured hospitals, it would be inconceivable that the Ministry cannot have a significant say in the management of these hospitals. If we want to prevent unnecessary competition between our restructured hospitals, if we want to improve the morale of our medical staff, if we want to pool our medical resources together, if we want to contain costs, if we want to provide a high quality health service, then the Ministry must take a strong leadership role. The Ministry has to look for new solutions for these problems and help our health service meet the needs of the next millennium. 3.45 pm

Mr Yeo Guat Kwang (Cheng San): (In Mandarin): Two days ago, we heard many stories about wool and sheep and how the shepherd sheared the wool from the fat sheep and gave them to the thin sheep. Now we go to another aspect of the story, to look at old feeble and sick sheep which are unable to grow wool and they need covered pens to shelter them and shepherds to look after them. Sir, with the problem of the aging population receiving more and more attention, people are increasingly concerned about the health care services for the aged, especially services which are community-based.

In April this year, the Ministry of Health announced the setting up of a department specialising in health care services for the aged. An inter-Ministry department will also be set up to assist in formulating relevant policies and measures. This is good news. It shows that this issue has been receiving priority attention. In less than 30 years' time, out of every four people, one will be above the age of 65. We will have to prepare early for the situation. I would like to suggest that we should strengthen health care services for the aged, and provide them with other facilities on a community basis. More and more old people are staying alone at home. More and more day-care centres are set up in the neighbourhoods of HDB estates. We need to expand the role of Government polyclinics so that they will be able to provide services to the old people in the neighbourhood. For example, the entrances and waiting rooms should be improved to give more convenience to the old people.

I would like to ask the Ministry of Health to also consider introducing mobile clinics which could visit the various neighbourhoods to provide medical services to the old people. Home nursing service should also be improved and enhanced. This should be able to deal with the needs of the aging population. In addition, we should also ensure that we have enough recreational and rehabilitation centres for the old people. Right now, such centres are all run by voluntary organisations. In our past, we depended on social, community and religious groups to form aided schools to provide more school places for our students, and ensure that everybody gets a place in the school. This worked very well for the interim until the Government was in a position to take over the administration of all the schools in Singapore. In the same way, I hope that the Ministry of Health can also work along the same line and build on the foundation of the existing private rehabilitation centres to gradually develop more facilities for the old and poor people among us.

Right now, what kind of assistance is the Government giving to the voluntary organisations in running such centres? Will the Government consider giving them more aid to lighten their financial burden, for example, give them more technical assistance, medical supplies and other materials to improve their efficiency and effectiveness?

Dr Michael Lim Chun Leng: Sir, regionalisation is the latest buzzword. Singapore wants to be a regional medical hub and, at the same time, we want to expand into the region as industrial parks and Singapore companies are set up overseas. There will be a need for Singapore health care facilities to expand overseas. I want to ask the Minister what measures have been taken by the Ministry in conjunction with other Ministries to promote Singapore as a major regional hub and to attract supporting health related industries into Singapore. What is the role of the Ministry or the Health Corporation of Singapore in promoting regional medical expansion? What joint ventures have HCS embarked on? And what support or incentive measures are available to encourage Singapore companies to set up health care facilities overseas?

Mr Bernard Chen: Sir, the Addenda to the Ministry of Health in the President's Speech has mentioned about the development of Singapore into a medical hub. I am not too sure whether Dr Michael Lim's idea of expanding medical service in the region comes within this definition. I will only speak about developing Singapore as a medical hub.

The success of this development depends again, as I mentioned earlier, on the kind of doctors we have available and the standard of care that we can provide. Both are not easy to come by. But as distinct from other services, the medical services aimed at developing our medical centre do not seem to be given much, if at all, any incentives. For example, in the manufacturing and financial services, we have, according to the Minister for Trade and Industry, a host of incentives that are too numerous to mention. But I can think of none for the heatlh services. It is understandable perhaps that in the case of health, it is difficult to separate local as against foreign treatment. But the same goes for manufacturing industries, not all the products are consumed as exports, but some are consumed locally. So I would like to just ask the Ministry whether they are working with the Ministry of Finance on possible incentives to help our doctors to develop medical services that cater mainly for foreign patients. Because these are brain services. And if we are supposed to be good in brains, I think we should also develop brains for our medical doctors and nurses. And if we can provide the incentives in various forms, which I am not quite aware of at the moment, perhaps, we can realise this objective soon.

Mr David T. E. Lim: Sir, I would just like to add on to what Dr Michael Lim and Mr Bernard Chen had said and perhaps also raise one of the concerns that the development of a regional medical hub in Singapore may have. Certainly, it will put a strain on our resources in terms of doctors, nurses and this then leads to concern about whether there will be any adverse impact on the health care for Singapore citizens, whether this will drive down standards or whether this will drive up costs. But having said that, there are a number of reasons why we should pursue this. Certainly, it will help us take advantage of an area that we are very strong in, which is, as Mr Bernard Chen has said, in terms of the brain services. We are already a regional leader in this area and if we do not go into this industry, then others in the region will.

Secondly, having a regional hub in Singapore will also help to raise the standard of medical care in Singapore and, in the long term, this will help to drive down costs rather than to drive them up. In so far as the costs for the lower income people are concerned, this can be dealt with as we do so now, in terms of administrative processes and in terms of making sure that subsidies are given to those who need them.

At the end of the day, we have got to ask ourselves whether or not we want to develop this industry and whether we are driven by the vision of creating a new industry, a new area where we can create for ourselves better jobs and earn for ourselves a better living. And if so, then we should start off with the vision as the basis and work around the problems. And I hope the Minister will then state what our policy is with regard to the development of the idea of a regional medical hub in Singapore and also tell us about the latest plans.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang: Sir, there is still a group of poor Singaporeans who despite our health subsidies still cannot afford their hospital bills. Yet others worry that the increasing health care costs will make basic medical care out of their reach. The concern is specially true among the elderly people.

Sir, Medifund is said to be the help of last resort so that no Singaporean will be denied access to basic health care because of inability to pay. As Medifund is still relatively new to Singaporeans, I would like to ask the Minister for Health to enlighten us on how Medifund is helping needy patients, how much we have spent and how many Singaporeans have benefited from the scheme. How do we ensure that genuine hardship cases are not denied help and that the fund will not be abused by those families who could actually afford to pay the hospital bills.

Mr Lew Syn Pau (Kreta Ayer-Tanglin): Sir, not too long ago, we had a big debate in this House about the need for Government to control the number of doctors. This is done through both the control and intake of medical students into NUS, and a drastic cut in the number of overseas medical schools which are recognised by the Singapore Medical Council. About two months ago, I read in the Sunday Times that there is now a shortage of doctors. My question to the Minister is: have we been unnecessarily stringent in controlling the number of doctors previously? Should we not let market forces decide the number of doctors to be allowed into Singapore or to have in Singapore instead of letting the Government control the numbers? Would the Singapore Medical Council now recognise more overseas medical schools than the current 28 for purposes of admitting graduates for registration as doctors? For example, why does the Singapore Medical Council recognise more UK and Australian medical schools than those from US and Canada? I am told that out of 125 accredited US medical schools, only about 10 are recognised. Would the Minister consider reviewing the list of recognised overseas medical schools?

Dr Tan Cheng Bock (Ayer Rajah): Sir, I am a medical doctor. It has been quite some time since the restructuring programme of our Government hospitals. Perhaps, it is timely that this House be given an update of the hospitals.

Dr Michael Lim just now highlighted some problems faced by patients with multi-disease illness. Have services improved in terms of waiting time for patients to see doctors for consultation and treatment modalities? Have adequate C Class beds been set aside for those Singaporeans in the lower income bracket? Is affordability to stay in such restructured hospitals a serious issue? And how does the establishment of these hospitals affect the Medisave accounts of Singaporeans as medical costs have gone up? Do they have to contribute more to Medisave in future? What control has the Ministry of Health over such hospitals? Again, Dr Michael Lim has highlighted some of these issues in this particular field. Is there a careful monitoring of the type of services being provided so that there is no wastage of manpower and no duplication of equipment? Is there evidence that hospitals are over-servicing patients to justify the purchase of expensive equipment by encouraging patients to use the equipment when the indications are not so obvious, like having a CT scan for any complaint of headache? There must be some performance indicators to monitor these hospitals. What are these and how have these hospitals measured up to these indicators? 4.00 pm

Sir, the teaching of medical students is not a money making proposition. In fact, it could be a chore for these hospitals. In the past, where bottom line is not the important consideration, all Government hospitals took to teaching very readily and eagerly, but now things have changed, as the hospital culture has changed.

Are our restructured hospitals willing therefore to train our medical students? If so, do they have a structured programme with NUH for such training? Or are they doing it as required by the Ministry of Health, as they are receiving subvention grants?

What is the future of the restructured hospitals? There are now centres for treatment like cardiac centre for treating heart patients, paediatric centre at the Kandang Kerbau Hospital, skin centres, urology centres, etc. When such centres are established, the restructured hospitals must feel a little bit uneasy or even threatened, as these centres would draw patients away from those restructured hospitals with less than adequate facilities for the particular modality of treatment.

But then restructured hospitals have to meet the bottom line. They must find ways and means to break even or even make a profit. This being so, there is a likely possibility that these hospitals may set up subsidiary companies to start special facilities like the gamma knife project, and charge patients accordingly, as a subsidiary company may not be obliged to follow the fee structure of the hospitals concerned. This would mean that subsidised patients, C and B2 patients, may need to pay the full fare for a service of this kind. And pensioners may not be allowed access to such facilities because it is not part of the hospital entitlement scheme.

Finally, as medical health care has become a lucrative industry - a word which I really hate, we are not an industry - is the Ministry watching very carefully that such hospitals may want to raise funds by way of listing on our stock exchange? Precedent has been set with the listing of a group clinic and the control of practically all the private hospitals by a public listed company. The major shareholders of these public listed companies are Malaysians.

This monopoly of control of our private hospitals is not good for Singapore. This means that they set the pricing of our medical services for hospital care in the private sector, as the monopoly rules out practically all competition.

Sir, we must remember that 80% of our primary health care is in the hands of the private sector. If listed public companies run these set-ups, what will happen to the health care delivery system? A listed company has to answer to the shareholders first, and it is rubbish to say that patients do come first in such hospitals and clinics. A listed company is not a charitable institution. Medicine, like others, is not a commercial enterprise. At the core of the practice of medicine is humanity. It should never be viewed in the strictest commercial sense. I am therefore pre-empting any possible move by the Government to allow any restructured hospital to seek a listing.

Sir, this is not a far-fetched idea. When you and I first came to this House, we could not imagine that sacred cows like PUB, Telecom, MRT and PSA could one day be privatised and eventually get listed, or already listed like Telecom. As the Ministry of Health gives more and more autonomy to such hospitals, as highlighted again by Dr Michael Lim, they could eventually decide to let such hospitals become privatised and become part of the Government's stable of Government-linked companies. This then would pave the way for seeking listing on the stock exchange, if not direct, indirectly by way of being part of Government GLCs like Keppel, DBS Land, Sembawang and the ST group of companies. Or the present GLC companies could buy up the privatised restructured hospitals.

As a Government, we must not abdicate our role of providing health care to our people We must not abdicate our role to the private companies or even to our own GLCs. It is a responsibility we should shoulder honourably. Thus, we must continue to pay more attention to the remaining Government hospitals like Alexandra Hospital and Woodbridge Hospital. We must provide more funds to these hospitals to help such hospitals upgrade, to meet the needs of a sophisticated population. We must prevent these hospitals from restructuring. And I would go further and say that any new hospital built should remain purely Government controlled and, in this way, we would give our people more choices of hospital care.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang: Sir, many people are unhappy about our A&E service. Some people came to me and complained about the A&E service in Singapore, and many thought that it is in a state of deterioration. Many people told me that they had to wait for many, many hours, as long as four hours, as reported in the press. And there are problems of overcrowding, and it appears to be getting worse. I wonder whether these problems arise as a result of shortage of doctors, shortage of nurses and, worse still, shortage of senior doctors or consultants. Because I do not think we should treat A&E departments as half-way houses.

Recently, there have been newspaper reports indicating that our A&E departments are not providing appropriate, efficient and correct service. I hope this is just an anomaly and not typical of our A&E service. There were also reports of the misuse of the A&E service by people who should really go to the Government polyclinics or to the GPs for treatment for their minor or non-emergency illnesses.

In addition, I was also told that the ambulances, when responding to calls and when they realise or they thought that it was not an acute case, they would rather return empty handed. I would like to ask the Minister to respond to my queries, my concerns, what is being done to address the issue of overcrowding, complaints about the inefficiency of our A&E service, about the ambulance service and the long waiting time, and how can we really ensure that A&E departments will be run in the most appropriate manner.

Sir, let me move on to my next topic on tobacco licensing. Despite the law prohibiting the sale of tobacco to minors, cigarettes are still readily available to our people. The continued rise in smoking amongst Singaporeans, especially the Singapore youths, has caused much concern among parents, school principals, teachers and members of the public too. Many people have called for stringent policing of the retailers of cigarettes. They call for shopkeepers who flout the ban on the sale of cigarettes to minors to be identified and penalised.

For more effective control of smoking among youths, the Ministry of Health should really license tobacco retailers. The Ministry should also consider restricting the number of licences issued. There should be strict monitoring of compliance by retailers to ensure that they do not sell cigarettes to minors. If tobacco retailers are caught selling cigarettes to minors, their licence should be revoked.

The Minister for Health (Mr Yeo Cheow Tong): Sir, I would like to thank the 19 speakers who have spoken so far. I think I have about 50 minutes to reply to them. I will try to be brief.

First, on medical manpower. This has been touched upon by three speakers, Mr Bernard Chen, Mr Lew Syn Pau and Dr Michael Lim. They have asked whether we are going to have enough medical manpower to maintain the high standard of medical care in Singapore, and asked what we are doing to alleviate the shortage in manpower that appears to be existing today.

Sir, the issue of medical manpower is, of course, of great interest to many Singaporeans, because it impacts significantly on how well we are going to deliver our medical services. In particular, the decision to increase the intake of medical students into NUS, starting from this year, has also enhanced interest in this topic.

Let me first explain what is the doctor manpower situation in Singapore. At the national level, 10 years ago, in 1987, we had a total of 2,940 doctors in Singapore. Today, we have 4,660. This is an increase of 59% over 10 years. The public sector has benefited, because the medical manpower in the public sector has increased from 1,420 in 1987 to 2,180 today. This is an increase of 53%. It is significant.

The doctor to bed ratio in the public sector has also improved very significantly. We had one doctor to 5.7 beds in 1987. Today, we have 3.7 beds to one doctor. So doctors have more time to look after patients as well.

If the numbers have gone up, if the bed to doctor ratio has improved, why then is there a shortage today? Is there a shortage and, if so, where? Let me explain the manpower situation in terms of both the short term and the long term. The short term, ie, today, there is a shortage in the public sector. But the shortage is in two very specific areas. The first is in the area of medical officers. The second is in certain specialties. 4.15 pm

In terms of medical officers, maybe it is useful for me to explain what medical officers are, because other than the few doctors here, most of the Members are not members of the medical fraternity. All doctors are required to serve a five-year bond with the Government after completing their housemanship and they serve these five years as medical officers. The number of medical officers required in the public sector is determined by the requests submitted by the hospitals, ie, the Ministry relies on hospitals to tell us what they require, then we will recruit and make available the number that they want.

We have about 880 medical officers today. Up to 1994, the public sector actually had a surplus of medical officers. In fact, from 1992 to 1994, the hospitals had to offer early release from the bonds to some of the medical officers who were serving then because they had too many. But since 1995, the hospitals have started to encounter shortage and today we have a shortage of about 90 medical officers. With 880 medical officers and a shortage of 90 medical officers it means we have a shortfall of about 10%.

Why did the shortage appear and what are we doing to alleviate the shortage? Firstly, the number of resignations has gone up. Secondly, the hospitals have steadily increased their demand for medical officers for two reasons. Firstly, improved working conditions, as what Dr Michael Lim has been asking for. Secondly, expansion of some services. Thirdly, higher expectations of patients. Dr Tan Cheng Bock mentioned that just now. Yes, patients now are more educated and knowledgeable. They want to be told what is their medical condition. They require doctors to spend more time explaining to them and communicating with them. That, of course, translates into demand for more doctors. This applies to both medical officers and especially specialists.

What are some of the measures that we have taken to relieve the medical officer shortage? The Ministry of Health relied on a survey taken by the Singapore Medical Association (SMA) in 1996 among medical officers who had joined the private sector between May 1995 and May 1996. The SMA's findings were, first, the key reason is that the differential in income from the private sector is significant. The medical officers can get between 40-50% more in the private sector. Secondly, lack of career opportunities. Thirdly, frequent night duties. Medical officers have to work at night. What happens is that they will work the normal day. If they are on night duty, they continue throughout the whole night till the next morning, and they go back to the normal day shift. This means that they actually work about 33 to 36 hours. This practice, I understand, is very common. Dr Tan Cheng Bock, I am sure, went through many of that. The same with Dr Michael Lim. We have adopted this system.

In fact, in the past medical officers were required to work anything from eight to more than ten sessions a month. Quite often, I was told by the older doctors, they worked every alternate day, ie, finish the work today, work through the night, do a full-day's work the next day, finish work at 5.00 pm, go home, come back the next day and repeat this cycle. It is very tiring. I feel it is not very fair to the patients as well.

Arising from the review in October 1996, the Ministry revised the scheme of service for medical officers. First, we provided for better and faster career progression. In the past, for the full five years, the medical officers were not eligible for any promotion. They came in on one grade, stayed there for the full five years, and it is no wonder that they complained about lack of career opportunities. We have now introduced two promotional steps into the system. All medical officers would be entitled to one promotion and the better ones would be eligible for a second promotion during these five years . We also increased the allowance for night calls.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

4.20 pm

The Minister for Health (Mr Yeo Cheow Tong): In the past, the doctors received $40 per night call for the first four duties and then $100 per night duty after that. We increased the allowance very significantly to between $110-$130 per night call. This is quite a significant increase. As a result, a medical officer today, with five years of service, will be able to earn at least $75,000 a year compared to $60,000 a year previously. This is a 25% increase in salaries.

We have also reduced the number of night calls to a maximum of six to seven a month. So the change is for the better, but this also translates into a significant increase in our requirement for medical officers. Overall, the changes have been for the better. The scheme of service is now a lot more attractive and we are optimistic that it should help reduce the resignation rate in the next couple of years.

We have also taken an additional approach of going abroad to recruit. As Members know, we have many medical students studying abroad. Our estimate is that over the next five years we will have about 240 students graduating abroad and we would like them to come back. Late last year, the Ministry sent a career counselling and recruitment team to Australia and UK and they managed to recruit 46 housemen and medical officers for this year. So this will help boost up our medical officers' strength. What was also encouraging is that the students, after attending the talks, felt encouraged and many of them said that they would definitely be coming back to Singapore to practise after their graduation. For the coming years, we should be able to rectify the situation.

What about the second area, the specialists? The perception has been that the resignation rate of specialists, which means Registrars and above, is extremely high from the restructured hospitals. This perception is true for 1995. We had a total of 78 specialists who resigned from the restructured hospitals. This represents about 8% of the total pool of specialists that we have. I asked whether there was any significant factor that led to this resignation. My staff tells me that in 1995 Gleneagles Hospital made available new clinic space and that led to the departure of many of the specialists. In 1994 and 1996, the resignation rates were more manageable, about 5%, compared to the training rate of 7-8% of each cohort. I think there is a balance. For this year up to July, the resignation rate has been 2�%, which is again lower than the comparable period in 1996.

Sir, there is a good match between the resignations and the supply in most specialties in the public sector. This is because we have a fairly well-managed and well-planned training pipeline. But shortages do occur from time to time when a particular specialist area experiences more resignations. The areas now that are facing a shortage would be anesthesia, radiology and medical oncology. Because it takes more than six years to train a specialist, the solution to these periodic shortages in specific areas is really to go abroad and recruit qualified specialists. This is an option that the restructured hospitals are now actively exploring.

But we need to improve our internal system too. As Dr Michael Lim has said, we have to look at the conditions of service and make them more attractive. My Ministry is now working with HCS and the hospitals to do this. We are looking at a few things. Dr Michael Lim mentioned about teaching and medical research. Yes, we recognise it. Together with clinical practice, these are the three key pillars of institutional practice. We must recognise the efforts of doctors put into teaching and research, and recognise them in both monetary and non-monetary ways. So overall, we must make the public sector more attractive. But while we recognise that the public sector pay can never match the income in the private sector, our salaries should nonetheless be competitive.

What about the long term manpower situation? Mr Lew Syn Pau has asked about that. So have Dr Michael Lim and Mr Bernard Chen. Let me give Members some background information. In 1991, the Health Review Committee on National Health Policies recommended that, first, Singapore should attain a doctor population ratio of 1:650 by the year 2000. As a comparison, the doctor to population ratio of the United Kingdom in 1993 was 1:650. So that places us fairly close to the United Kingdom with a few years' time lag, which is not bad. The Committee also realised that we need to control doctor manpower because the experience of all the developed countries has shown that an excessive supply of doctors only leads to escalation of health care expenditures. So it is a lesson that we should learn well and adopt.

Projecting from the 1980 census, based on the Health Review Committee's recommendation, we would have about 6,400 doctors in the year 2010, compared to about 4,700 this year. That will be an increase of about 1,700 over the next 13 years. In order to meet this projected manpower, the NUS intake was maintained at 150 and the Singapore Medical Council reviewed the list of recognised foreign universities and reduced the list to 28 schools in the expectation that they would take in a total of no more than 40 Singapore students. So 150 Singapore students in NUS plus 40 from abroad would then leave us with more than enough to achieve the desired doctor strength of 6,400 by the year 2010.

Earlier this year my Ministry reviewed the doctor projections again, because several factors have changed. Unlike what Dr Michael Lim has said that it was just a short three years ago, those projections were actually done about 7-8 years ago. First, the 1990 census revealed that our population was larger than projected from the 1980 census. That means the base we are using to calculate the doctor population based on that ratio was out by a bit. Secondly, the Government's effort to attract overseas talents will speed up population growth and the revised higher projected population in the year 2010 would mean that the projected number of elderly sick in the future years would also increase. The third factor was regional demand. Because regional economic growth is expected to remain strong in the coming years, we have also revised upwards the projected regional demand for medical services. This is in line with what Mr Bernard Chen, David Lim and the rest have talked about in terms of the regional medical centre and medical hub.

Factoring all these changes, MOH revised the desired doctor population in the year 2010 from 6,400 to 7,100, ie, all these have led to an increase in the projected demand of about 700 doctors. To achieve this figure, we therefore work with NUS to increase the intake this year to 180 and to increase the intake to 200 for next year. 4.30 pm

How about the list of recognised medical schools? Our study shows that in 1996, just from 11 medical schools, there are two Australian and nine medical schools under the University of London. These 11 schools alone took in 42 Singapore students, compared to our projected figure of 40 for the entire 28 schools. We understand that a few Singapore students applied for the remaining 17 medical schools in the US, UK and Australia. But this may change in the coming years as the parents in Singapore realise that there are other schools where the intake has been very low that they will get a better chance to be admitted to those schools. I think more Singapore parents would then encourage their children to enrol there.

My Ministry will therefore continue to monitor and review the situation over the next few years before deciding on whether or not to increase the list.

Sir, I will say that overall, our medical manpower in the public sector is manageable, although tight in some areas. We have steadily increased the staff strength over the years and will continue to do so, especially now that the medical student intake has been increased.

What about nursing manpower, which Mr Bernard Chen asked about? Here the situation is more acute. We have a shortage, and the shortage is more significant. There are today about 9,000 nurses in both the public and private sectors. And the estimated shortage is about 2,200 nurses, ie, a 20% shortfall from what is required. The demand for nurses will definitely increase with an aging population and the expansion of the medical services. We must therefore find more creative and innovative approaches to solve this problem in the next few years. The problem is how to attract young school leavers to go into nursing, especially when there are so many other competing careers that are available, and that is only for the intake level.

Secondly, how do we retain the trained nurses in the public sector? I know Mr Bernard Chen mentioned about nurses working in the Middle East. Yes, we know there are some. But in the context of the 9,000 nurses that we have, the proportion of nurses working abroad is actually quite small. It does add to the shortage.

In terms of recruitment, we reached a peak of about 751 student nurses in 1989 and we were able to reach that peak because of the recession in the mid-eighties. Suddenly, a lot of school leavers felt that it was worth the while going into nursing. But immediately after the recessionary effects wore off, the following year 1990/1991, the intake dropped by more than half, an average of 330. 751 in one year, next year it was 330. Our target was 900 - a tremendous shortfall. But, fortunately, we have already recognised that it was going to be more difficult attracting students and we had to increasingly make the nursing profession more attractive and competitive. As a result, we were able to persuade the Ministry of Education to start a Nursing Diploma course in one of the polytechnics. Prior to that, nursing was only a certificate course in the School of Nursing. So this represents tremendous enhancement of the professional status. The Nanyang Polytechnic started a course in 1992 and I am happy to report that this has resulted in the increase in the number of applicants. Last year, the Diploma course managed to attract 590 applicants, Singaporeans and non-Singaporeans, compared to about 250 when we had the School of Nursing course. So it has proven to be attractive.

We are strengthening our efforts to also recruit foreign nursing students, which is a better approach than trying to recruit trained nurses. Because if the students come here and study in the polytechnic, after three years, I think they will have become more acclimatised to the local demands and practices. But, nonetheless, I think we should not rule out recruitment of trained nurses from abroad. With such a significant shortage, even if they are not fully acquainted with our system, I think they can still contribute. So let us appreciate them for their contributions that they are making. At the same time, my Ministry will be looking into how to make the nursing career even more attractive and challenging. We will be carrying out a comprehensive review of the service in the next few months and we hope that arising from this study, we will be able to once again further improve on the attractiveness of the profession.

Sir, let me move on to the next cut which is from Mr Bernard Chen on the professional standard of doctors. He is worried that the recent publicity of complaints to the SMC (the Singapore Medical Council) may indicate that things are not all that well in the medical profession, even though generally the standard of the medical profession in Singapore is very high. I think the point is correct that the standard of the profession in Singapore is high. Every year, the Singapore Medical Council receives between 40 and 60 complaints. I think the range is reasonable and the numbers are not too bad, considering that we have about 4,700 doctors in Singapore. In every profession, there will be a few black sheep.

Sir, we have been focusing on ensuring that our doctors are competent and capable. However, it is equally important for doctors to maintain and uphold professional conduct to ensure that patients are given the appropriate care and treatment. Consequently, the teaching of medical ethics forms an important part of the medical curriculum. In recent years, the SMC has also introduced a physician's pledge to increase the awareness and commitment of doctors to the vocation. We will also be introducing lay representation in the disciplinary and complaints committees, as mentioned by Mr Chen. He has asked what else can we do.

Sir, MOH also carries out medical audits on various procedures and treatments to identify areas which need to be improved or to deter poor medical practice. This is an important element and we are in the process of strengthening our audit capabilities. With all these, I think we should be able to maintain the professionalism in the profession, despite the many competing demands on the time of the doctors.

Sir, let me move on to the next cut which is by Mr Goh Choon Kang on the impact of the cost of furniture and equipment on patients. It is prudent and sound to take into account all operating costs of providing a service. This way we will know what the true costs are, which are the areas which are out of line, which are major cost elements and how do we bring about productivity improvements and cost savings.

The costs of furniture and equipment (F&E) are part of the hospital's operating cost, just are the salaries of nurses and doctors. In the case of furniture and equipment, they make up 5% of total recurrent cost. But while we account fully for the F&E cost, most patients do not bear the full amount of the cost. This is because patients in B1 get a subsidy of 20%. Those in B2 get 65% subsidy and those in class C get 80% subsidy. That means the Government bears 80% of the costs of the furniture and equipment for the class C patients. So much of what Mr Goh is asking for, I think, is already being provided by the Government.

Dr Michael Lim talked about medical specialisation, that increasing specialisation may actually lead to increased cost and he also commented about the practice conventions in SGH. Sir, as medical science and technology continue to develop rapidly, I think it is inevitable for doctors to specialise and sub-specialise even more. I think Dr Michael Lim will fully appreciate that, being a specialist himself.

The question is: how do we ensure that patients get the best care possible at the best value? He is correct. Specialist services, if used indiscriminately, will lead to an increase in health care cost. So how do you balance the two? Sir, rather than just focus on SGH, I think the problem is not just SGH's alone, the problem exists in all the hospitals, whether they are private or public. In fact, I have heard many horror stories of patients going to the private sector who were given a go-around and ended up, instead of seeing one specialist, seeing four or five specialists. So the problem is equally prevalent in the private sector. And it is not just restricted to the specialist area. It also applies to the whole medical service.

I think it is well recognised that a person with a medical condition should first consult a generalist doctor, rather than self-referring to a specialist. Especially if he has multiple medical conditions, the generalist doctor would then be in the best position to decide whether that patient needs to see a specialist and, if so, which specialist. In some developed countries, their health insurance systems and their national health plans require patients to first consult a family practitioner or GP. In Singapore we do not do this, we do not regulate this, and many patients self-refer to specialists. This, of course, then makes it more expensive for him, especially when the GP could have looked after him and solved his medical problems.

At the hospital level similarly, the general physician should be in charge of patients with multiple medical conditions. And this would mean that even if the patient had self-referred or had been referred to a specialist or a sub-specialist, and the sub-specialist found that he had multiple problems, the sub-specialist should actually make it a point to refer him to a general physician in the hospital, rather than to send him to a whole series of specialists.

Dr Michael Lim Chun Leng rose ---

Mr Yeo Cheow Tong: Because of the time element, please let me finish the reply first. If there is more time, he can then take up his points.

We recognise the weakness in the system and we are now working with the University, the various medical bodies and the hospitals to encourage this practice to be followed. We are also looking into training more general physicians so that there will be adequate general physicians to look after patients with multiple medical conditions.

Sir, the challenge is therefore a real one and we will need the cooperation and understanding of both patients and doctors, and doctors in both the private and public sectors.

Let me now move on to the regional medical hub which three Members have spoken on. I will go through very quickly, Sir. Yes, our medical standards in Singapore are very high. And over the years, because of this high standard, we have evolved into a regional medical centre. Doctors in the region feel comfortable referring their patients here and even patients are self-referring themselves to specialists here by consulting specialists whom they hear about through word of mouth from friends and relatives. So the question is: what are we doing to further strengthen our position?

Sir, whilst we are today a regional centre, we cannot afford to be complacent, as Mr David Lim has mentioned. Countries in the region are also developing their medical expertise. In the Ministry's view, to maintain our position as a regional medical centre, we have to ensure that our medical software remains a few steps ahead of others. Why software? This is because with adequate finances, anyone can build a model hospital, and the technology and equipment can also be just as easily purchased. But to be a medical centre of high standards and standing, the skills, the expertise of the doctors, nurses, scientists, technologists, therapists, managers must be top-notch. And not only that, they must be able to tie them altogether into an efficient system. This we have. We are also taking steps to position ourselves for the next phase of our medical development. This involves the development of five national medical centres. The National Skin and Eye Centres are ready. We are now in the process of building the National Heart and Cancer Centres, and the Neuroscience Institute. These centres will spearhead the development of clinical service, teaching and research. The concept is that the more complex or rarer cases requiring the expensive equipment or highly specialised expertise or multi-disciplinary treatment will be centralised at these national centres. The national centres will also be open to specialists in other Government hospitals as well as those in the private sector. So there is no need for any of the restructured hospitals to be worried because they will all be part and parcel of this development programme. 4.45 pm

Sir, we are also looking into the development of a medical services park in the grounds of the Singapore General Hospital. The aim is to attract entities in a comprehensive range of health care and other supporting activities to co-locate themselves in this park. This way there will be synergy derived from the resultant wide spectrum of medical facilities, expertise and activities. This will, as Mr David Lim has mentioned, definitely help to raise our standards and improve our competitiveness in the health sector. The benefits will accrue to Singapore patients and of course regional patients can also take advantage of the services there, if they are interested.

Dr Michael Lim also asked what is the role of MOH in helping the private sector expand overseas. Sir, MOH focuses mainly on looking after the health care needs of Singaporeans in Singapore. The Economic Development Board is the Government agency that helps to facilitate the regionalisation efforts of our private sector, including the health care sector. This will include investments in regional health care projects.

Mr Bernard Chen asked what incentives we are giving to help the private medical sector further develop. Sir, the private sector has grown very very strongly throughout the years without any Govern ment assistance or incentives. I think they have been growing fast enough and we should not over accelerate.

Dr Tan Cheng Bock asked for an update on the restructured programme. Sir, he raised so many questions that I lost count. I stopped at 20, and to reply to him, I think I need another hour. I do not have that time. So I would just very quickly summarise our experience. Basically, when we restructured the hospitals, we have four key objectives, ie, to enable them to improve efficiency and standard of service, improve productivity, control hospital costs and allow them to develop and respond quickly to changes in the marketplace and to patient needs.

I am happy to say that in all these four areas, the restructured hospitals have done well. They have been able to increase the throughput significantly without having a proportionate increase in their manpower. Let me give you some figures. For specialist outpatient attendances between 1988 and 1996, the workload increased by 65%. In terms of day surgery procedures, during those eight years, they increased by 145%. The survey of patients' responses showed that 85% of the patients rated the services provided by the hospitals as either good or excellent. This is an improvement from the previous figures. Another area which is very evident is the missing case notes. I think Dr Tan and Dr Michael Lim would be familiar that, in the past, at the Specialist Outpatient Clinics (SOCs), it was not unusual for patients who turned up and found that their case notes were missing. In fact, in 1986, between 3% and 17% of patients ended up with missing case notes. It was a terrible position. Today, the numbers in each of the hospitals total less than 10 cases a month. Compared to the huge patient-load, this works out to about 0.01%. So it shows that the hospitals have managed to get their act together, improve the system and make sure that patients' needs are well looked after.

He asked about coordinating the purchase of expensive equipment in public hospitals. At MOH level, we do monitor to make sure that the equipment purchased are not unnecessarily duplicated, leading to wastage. But basically, the decision to purchase a piece of equipment lies with the Board of each hospital and they will make sure that there is a real need for the equipment because it costs money. Secondly, they cannot get a replacement service from any other hospital. I think the situation is very much under control. On the development of sub-specialties, yes, we do coordinate that from the HQ level.

Dr Tan spoke for a long time on the listing of hospitals on the stock market. Government has no plans at the moment to do any of that. The restructured hospitals will remain restructured.

Sir, let me now go quickly to the question of A&E which Mr Choo Wee Khiang also spoke quite extensively on. Sir, I share his sentiments. I too am not very happy with the problems being encountered in A&E. And if you look at the situation, it will explain why. Between 1992 and 1994, A&E attendances went down slightly. This is because, in 1992, we embarked on an intensive education programme on the proper use of A&E. So Singaporeans were more aware. They realised what is the true role of A&E. In 1993, we also did something which I think contributed to the decline. We increased the fees quite significantly and made sure that A&E fees were much higher than the GP fees. So there was a cost of going to A&E instead of going to the GP.

During the last two years, 1995-1996, A&E attendances went up very significantly. They went up by over 10% a year and this has led to a tremendous strain on the facilities. The hospitals have added more staff. In fact, the hospitals have, in the last two years, added 22 more doctors, which is equivalent to 25% increase in the doctor staffing and they added 15% more nurses. But, unfortunately, each time, they improved the service, it only led to an increase in demand.

A review showed that a significant number of A&E patients actually had relatively minor illness, such as fever, low-grade fever, cough and cold, diarrhoea and superficial cuts. What is also telling is that 60% of all A&E attendances are between the hours of 9.00 am and 9.00 pm when GPs are available and, during the day hours, polyclinics are available too, and many of these cases could actually be seen by GPs and polyclinics.

Sir, we need to discourage this tendency of many Singaporeans using the A&E because we have finite A&E resources and A&E clinics are meant to take care of serious conditions. By clogging up A&E clinics with non-emergency cases, those non-emergency patients are actually endangering the lives of the true emergency cases because doctors, being over-worked, may not be able to give enough time and care to those who are genuine emergency cases.

I have asked the hospitals to review how A&E services can be more appropriately managed. We need to discourage those patients who can be seen by GPs and polyclinics from making use of our A&E facilities. The review will include reviewing how the existing A&E fees could be revised in such a way as not to unduly penalise the genuine cases. I expect the hospitals to come out with a package within the next two months.

On tobacco licensing, Mr Choo Wee Khiang is absolutely correct. The smoking rate among our youths is bad. They have gone up very significantly in the last 10-odd years. We have a ban on smoking and the sale of cigarettes to our youths. But, unfortunately, it is difficult to detect shops that are selling. The Committee on Smoking Control has also recommended that MOH license tobacco retailers and we have decided to do that. We expect to implement this in June 1998 and are now working out the details.

I will ask my Senior Minister of State to reply to the other questions.

The Chairman: Dr Wong, you have got four minutes.

The Senior Minister of State for Health (Dr Aline K. Wong): Sir, since I do not have much time, I would just concentrate on several things that I would like to clarify for Members of the House who spoke on the remaining subjects.

Both Mr Yeo Guat Kwang and Mr Goh Choon Kang expressed concern about the level of funding that we give to the VWOs which are doing very important work in providing community-based health services, especially to our elderly. I like to clarify that the 50:50 funding formula for the recurrent expenditure actually applies to all VWOs, whether they provide social services under the Ministry of Community Development or health-related services under the Ministry of Health. Both Mr Goh and Mr Yeo are correct in saying that Government provides 90% of the capital expenditure. But I would like to point out that, apart from these two levels of funding, the Government helps the VWOs in many other ways. For example, we facilitate the allocation of State land and premises and we fund up to 90% of the cyclical maintenance cost for existing buildings. We also provide up to 100% of rental subsidy for the use of Government buildings or State land and we provide 100% rebate, for input GST.

On top of that, we second doctors and nurses to work in some VWO facilities, and we facilitate the allocation of foreign workers' permits. The foreign workers levy is actually waived for the VWOs. Even the COEs for vehicles used in providing services by these VWOs are exempted. So these are various ways in which we help them. For the financial year 1997, our budget for the VWOs has actually doubled, twice what we provided last year. We projected for the next two years that there would be an increase of $4 million every year in terms of recurrent expenditure subsidies alone. I do understand that the VWOs are finding it quite strenuous to raise funds while providing services. The funding formula is one of the areas that will be very carefully looked into by the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Health Care for the Elderly which would be chaired by the Minister for Health himself.

I do not have time to update both Mr Peh Chin Hua and Mr Goh Choon Kang on the state of TCM and what we have done so far. I hope they will understand. We will find another occasion to inform them.

But I cannot let pass Mr Peh Chin Hua's very interesting speech on human cloning, so allow me two minutes to respond to that. I must say that I am a little bit surprised at the range of interest that Mr Peh has, and the recurrent image of the sheep in this year's debate. Cloning means the production of genetically identical replicas which, in the broader sense, includes the replication of DNA, cells, embryos and the whole organism. I would like to inform Mr Peh from the very beginning that there are different levels of cloning. I understand that scientific breakthroughs occur from time to time and this may represent spurts of human creativity. Some of these discoveries can do good. But some of them could be harmful and, in fact, involve very difficult ethical dilemmas. We agree that there should not be a total ban on cloning research, as there are certain areas which could have beneficial results. In fact, we have supported research involving the replication of DNA and cells of both animal and human origin, which are now routine research techniques in molecular and cell biology. Such research, as I said, could have potential beneficial results, such as in the treatment of certain diseases like cancer or the generation of organs for transplantation. 5.00 pm

However, my Ministry is of the view that the production of identical copies of existing human beings is unacceptable. The reasons for this stand are many, and these reasons have been debated by the international community as well as by our own national Medical Ethics Committee. The reasons include: there would be an imposition of biological characteristics on human individuals by third parties. Human beings may one day be valued and reproduced for certain desirable characteristics, rather than as persons. You can also stretch your imagination that one day there could be commercialisation of human cloning, embryos being sold to potential so-called parents. Intrinsically, there are concerns about the health of the child which would be cloned, as well as the loss of genetic diversity and hybrid vigour in the population.

Mr Peh came up with a very interesting theory about how human society is organised. He said that our moral values and social relationships are man made. To a certain extent, it is true. However, when you look at human civilisation, human reproduction is a very basic fact and a driving force of life on this earth. The relationships between man and woman and their offspring from the act of reproduction, ie, the family, actually forms the basis for the organisation of society. Besides that, there is the question of generations. Generational hierarchy is also a universal principle of organising human society. Unless you want to have a brave new world imagined by science fiction writers such as Aldous Huxley, which makes me shudder, I think we better not tangle with this. There are certain ethical limits that we must abide by.

Therefore, my Ministry has adopted the position that there should be a total prohibition on the creation of human babies by cloning technology. This is also in line with the stand adopted by the World Health Organisation in its recent Assembly in Geneva in May this year. The Assembly has adopted a resolution affirming that the use of cloning for the replication of human individuals is ethically unacceptable, and contrary to human integrity and morality. This is our stand and if Mr Peh is interested in reading the WHO document, I will be pleased to send it to him.

Dr Toh See Kiat (Aljunied): Point of clarification, Sir.

The Chairman: There is no time to clarify. Maybe later on before we reach the guillotine time. Mr Chen.

Mr Bernard Chen: Sir, at least we do not have too many wolves in sheep's clothing! I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (2), Encik Ibrahim.

Encik Ibrahim bin Othman: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head P of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code PD 1500.

Sir, I wish to seek clarification with regard to voluntary welfare organisations (VWOs). The Senior Minister of State has given an answer to Mr Goh and Mr Yeo. The Senior Minister of State has not given a definite answer as to what percentage of funding as regards the operating or recurrent expenditures of VWOs. Presently, it is 50%. Could the Ministry perhaps consider giving a higher grant, say, up to 90% of their recurrent or operating expenditure? I think many of the VWOs are facing problems in raising funds and most of their free time is being spent on raising funds, which I think is at the expense of caring for the elderly.

I also need to ask the Senior Minister of State when will the Inter-Ministry Committee on Health Care for the Elderly be formed, how long will it take, and what is the time frame? If the Ministry cannot give a 90% grant for recurrent expenditure, would they have a graduated scale? That means if there is a VWO-run hospital, it could be given 90%. If they take care of a nursing home, maybe 80%. And, of course, for ordinary VWOs running a day-care centre, 60%. I think this will help them tremendously.

Can I also ask what other measures the Government is taking to assist VWOs to provide health care for the elderly, apart from financial assistance? What about manpower, expertise, etc?

Dr Lily Neo (Kreta Ayer-Tanglin): Sir, may I take all my three amendments together?

The Chairman: Yes.

Dr Lily Neo: Sir, the most effective way to the care of our elderly follows the dictum "prevention is better than cure". In view of the increasing numbers of our elderly to about 850,000 over the next 30 years, preventive care should be promoted island-wide on a big scale and soon. Let it be made available to our elderly while they are still well.

There are quite a number of preventive care concepts or models. I have started a model in Kim Seng which is based on a "total care" concept of looking after the physical, mental and social well-being of the elderly. By paying a reasonable and affordable fee, the participants sign up at this precinct-located Centre of Activity for Retired and Elderly (CARE) for their daily exercises, wholesome daily meals and social activities such as singing, dancing and picnic outings. They get to interact and befriend each other and, hopefully, they can be concerned for and be helpful to each other as "buddies". They will attend health education talks and have health screening tests which are to be conducted yearly for them.

Sir, I am convinced that the way to go is to have more of such CARE. They can be run by grassroots groups and organisations from the community. They do not cost much to run, but they do need support. Sir, by spending time and effort and money on preventive care now could save us dollars up the road in a big way.

I would really like to see the involvement of MOH, MCD and CDCs in supporting such centres. At the moment, several private volunteer doctors are providing some of the services. But MOH's involvement would enhance and maintain the fast increasing demands. Could MOH support these types of centres, especially in terms of back-up medical screening tests and regular health talks?

My next topic is on the setting up of more geriatric hospitals. The sick elderly are best catered for in geriatric departments or geriatric hospitals where a more holistic approach towards better care becomes possible. The elderly are often afflicted with multiple illnesses, and when they go from one specialty to another, they are often subjected to multiple diagnostic tests. They may be over investigated or over treated for conditions that are in fact due to the normal processes of ageing, which in isolation and in an acute hospital or emergency situations can complicate diagnosis and treatment. Well-run geriatric departments can prevent such unnecessary inconvenience and waste of resources.

The Chairman: Dr Neo, you are using the words "elderly" and "geriatrics" interchangeably. Please carry on.

Dr Lily Neo: Yes. My question is that I would like to ask the Ministry whether, apart from those geriatric departments in Alexandra Hospital, Tan Tock Seng Hospital and New Changi Hospital, will new ones be established in the other acute general hospitals in the near future?

Sir, my last topic is on geriatric training and services. There is a shortage of geriatric care providers even as of now. By the year 2030, it is likely that almost one-third of our population will be considered elderly. In view of the increasing trend in the population of our aged, we certainly have an urgent need to increase our pool of people who are interested in gerontology and trained in geriatric care. We will need more geriatric specialists, trained geriatric-care nurses, physiotherapists, speech therapists and so on. This has to be looked into now if we are to aim at providing the most effective and best care for the elderly in the future.

I would like to ask the Ministry whether there are already plans in place for the training of people to solve this shortage. Time is needed for training people, just as time is also needed for comprehensive planning of the services. This has to be an on-going process started from now to have the basic resources in steady-state.

Sir, unless we have these core service-providers, we cannot make any substantial progress in the care of our elderly, especially when it comes to looking after the dependent elderly, the lack of core service providers will be our stumbling block.

Geriatrics, as a specialty, is not a popular career pursuit among doctors. This trend needs to be addressed. Will the Ministry be seeking ways to entice more young doctors to train in this particular specialty?

Dr Aline Wong: Sir, Mr Ibrahim Othman asked for some clarification on what other forms of help the Ministry of Health can give to the VWOs. I have indicated that where there is a need and request within our resources, we could second some medical officers and so on, as we have done to community hospitals. We could help in training, say, the nursing aides. In fact, I understand that the College of Family Physicians is thinking of organising such a course. There are many other ways that we could come in and help.

As for financial support, the 50:50 recurrent expenditure subsidy, as I explained, is now a formula used for all VWOs whether they are under the Ministry of Community Development or under the Ministry of Health. But I think the Inter-Ministerial Committee will look into suggestions such as his, whether we could graduate the subsidy to VWOs offering different kinds of services. In fact, we are already in the process of costing the services, each particular type of service, so that we can help to fund the VWOs better.

The Committee has just been formed. We will start meeting in August. Most probably, we will finish our deliberations by the end of this year or early next year.

Dr Lily Neo talked about preventive health care for the elderly, especially in the community setting. I agree with her that the ideal place where the elderly can be cared for after discharge from hospital, or to help them stay in good health so that they do not fall sick and become hospitalised, would be the community. Therefore, I think we should welcome projects such as hers in Kim Seng where she would gather a group of elderly people, provide them with healthy social recreational opportunities, exercise, give them meals and so on. This type of groups can play a very important role in preventive health care for the elderly. If in future Dr Neo thinks that there is something that the Ministry of Health can do together with her, or together with the Community Development Council under which her constituency falls, by all means please approach us and we will talk about the details.

I would like to explain to her that the Ministry of Health has been doing quite a lot of health promotion and disease prevention among the elderly. First of all, we have been promoting healthy living for everybody, including the elderly. We have been carrying out extensive health education promotions within community centres, in schools and so on. We also provide a very good health screening service at our polyclinics and at our senior citizens' health care centres.

Preventive care for the elderly would be one other area that the Inter-Ministerial Committee will look at and see how we can strengthen it. We would most certainly increase our efforts in health education and health promotion. One preliminary thinking we have is that we could develop a protocol for health screening for the elderly to be given to the GPs and the polyclinics. Health screening for the elderly is a very time consuming exercise. We want to simplify it, but to make it adequate so that even general practitioners will find it possible to do health screening for the elderly. That would be one approach to improving preventive health care for the elderly. 5.15 pm

As for geriatric services and training, and also geriatric hospitals, we have already got three geriatric departments, one each at the so-called regional hospitals. They are at Alexandra Hospital, Tan Tock Seng Hospital and also at the new Changi Hospital. These geriatric departments will form the node in each region for the networking of the community based health care services so that the care of the elderly could pass through a seamless web. But we must not just think of increasing the number of geriatricians or increasing the number of geriatric departments in hospitals as the specialised services for the elderly. These departments are for the management of multiple complicated problems of the elderly. For other conditions, the general medicine department, orthopaedic department, cardiology department, and the general wards can take care of the elderly. Indeed, the majority of the elderly can be taken care of in these general departments. So geriatric departments and geriatric care are a very specialised branch that is not meant to cater to everybody. It is meant to cater only to complicated multiple problems. I would also like to stress that the care for the elderly is the responsibility of all the doctors, including the general practitioners, as well as the family and the community. In fact, our emphasis should be on community based services rather than developing too fast or too many of these geriatric centres.

Geriatrics is a relatively new field in Singapore. So far, we have trained 13 geriatricians and another five are in training. It is estimated that ideally we require 24 by the year 2000. We will work towards it and encourage more doctors to take it up. But it is a very challenging task to interest young doctors to do geriatrics. For one thing it is not considered to be glamorous enough but we will try to reverse the image. We are also providing a post-graduate diploma in geriatric medicine as well as training nurses in gerontology. As I said, we should not just look at geriatrics as a field for the elderly and this is the only way forward. No, I think it is a broad based strategy and every general practitioner and every community would have to share the responsibility of giving the best health care to the elderly.

Encik Ibrahim bin Othman: I thank the Senior Minister for State for her explanation and beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Encik Ibrahim bin Othman: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head P of the Main Estimates be reduced by $10 in respect of Code PE 1500.

Sir, I wish to ask the Minister a question in regard to the increase in the number of attendance at the outpatient polyclinics and whether there will be a corresponding increase in the number of doctors treating them. May I also ask what is the average number of patients seen by each doctor daily and what is the average time for consultation for each case. What is the waiting time for each patient before he gets to see the doctor at the outpatient polyclinics?

The Chairman: Dr Wong, you have 1 1/2 minutes to reply.

Dr Aline Wong: Yes, we have increased the number of doctors. You have just heard the Minister who said that over the last 10 years the number of doctors has increased significantly. This has made it possible for the patient load at our polyclinics to have declined. The doctor in the polyclinic is now seeing an average of 71 patients per day. Ten years ago, it was 95. The patient load of 70 patients per day is quite the same as the average 60-80 patients per day seen by the busy general practitioners. So if you talk about the quality of care, I think the polyclinics are offering an equivalent kind. But I must stress that the time spent by the doctor on a particular patient depends on his medical condition. We have some statistics.

The Chairman: Order. "Guillotine" time. Encik Ibrahim, would you withdraw your amendment?

Encik Ibrahim bin Othman: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The sum of $964,551,940 for Head P ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $299,753,600 for Head P ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head R -

The Chairman: Head R - Ministry of Information and the Arts. Amendment (1). Mr Chew.

Mr Chew Heng Ching: Sir, I beg to move,

That the total sum to be allocated for Head R of the Main Estimates be reduced by $100.

Sir, the Government has been more visible in recent years in its support of the arts. Its grant to the promotion of arts nearly doubled in the last three years. This supports the Government's overall aim to develop a more gracious and vibrant society. The Government has recently, in the Presidential Address debate, announced its financial support for LaSalle-SIA College of Arts and the Nanyang Academy of Fine Arts (NAFA). May I suggest that with this support, we consciously develop LaSalle-SIA College of the Arts to be a well-known academy for performing arts and NAFA to be a well-known centre for fine arts.

Sir, notwithstanding this positive move by the Government, my GPC would like to see more being done to promote the arts. We propose a three-pronged action plan. Firstly, to give more support to the local arts groups. Secondly, to start our children early on an arts appreciation programme. Thirdly, to bring the arts to the HDB heartland.

Sir, I believe there are about 50 to 100 local arts groups which deserve support from the Government. We would like to see more funds being made available to help these arts groups take off. On arts education, we suggest that schools organise more field trips to enhance students' understanding and appreciation of the different forms of arts and sculptures. Performing arts should also be included as part of this art appreciation programme for the children.

Sir, we must also correct the image that the arts belong to the elite. We must try to bring the arts to our HDB heartland. Therefore, we suggest that community centres and community clubs which are scheduled for renovation or rebuilding in the next few years designate rooms to be offered as homes for some of these local arts groups. We further suggest that arts corners be established in every constituency where residents could display their talents and art works on a pre-determined Sunday of a month at the void deck of a certain block, for example.

Finally, Sir, on the question of funding for the arts, we urge MITA to revive the idea of establishing an arts endowment fund to help promote arts and arts education in support of our goal of building a gracious society. We further propose that this fund comes from part of the budgetary surplus that we generate every year.

Dr Yaacob Ibrahim (Jalan Besar): Sir, I echo the sentiments of my GPC Chairman, Mr Chew Heng Ching. I am glad to note that the efforts by the Government and private groups to promote arts in Singapore are bearing some success. We can see from the recently concluded arts festival. We drew a much larger crowd than before. Most of the performances, I am made to understand, were oversubscribed. There is also a trend of a growing appreciation of theatre, film, painting and other art forms. So I must congratulate MITA for bringing the arts to the people, especially those also living in HDB flats. Through schemes such as arts housing, art groups now can operate out of community centres and thereby contribute to art appreciation across a wider audience.

In order for the arts to continue to develop and flourish in Singapore, we certainly need both the practitioners and the audience. As again mentioned by my Chairman, the recent move by the Government to promote art education through LaSalle-SIA Arts College and the Nanyang Academy of Fine Arts would definitely contribute to the pool of practitioners. We know that appreciation of the arts, if introduced at an early age, would have a lasting effect. Art appreciation must also be fostered among adults. Children who have an inclination towards the arts will pursue an active career if they have the support of their parents and peers. Thus, there is a relationship between art appreciation and education. As more people appreciate art, there will be a tendency for more people to pursue a career in it.

My concern here, Sir, is the policy and the promotion of art appreciation and education in Singapore. We need to encourage art appreciation from the very young, but we must also ensure that those who are interested in the arts, their interest is sustained while in school. Can we perhaps consider art education as part of our core curriculum in school? While this may be the responsibility of MOE, I believe it is the domain of MITA as the Ministry responsible for the development of the arts in Singapore to set the agenda and to work with MOE. Hence, this policy must be an integrated one between MITA and MOE. With this integrated policy, students in the arts could be given the opportunity to perform publicly and interact with arts groups in Singapore. Attachment programmes could be developed for these students. This policy would ensure that arts education is not only the purview of the trainers but also the practitioners. The net result is a policy which would ensure that arts would continue to flourish in Singapore.

Mr Chew Heng Ching: Sir, the Government, in order to promote our heritage, established the National Heritage Board in the year 1993. The Board now incorporates the National History Museum, the Singapore Arts Museum, Asian Civilisation Museum, National Archives of Singapore and the Oral History Centre. I understand that soon the Preservation of Monuments Board will be transferred from the Ministry of National Development to MITA. Does it mean that the Preservation of Monuments Board has shifted its emphasis from the preservation of buildings to heritage and history? May I therefore ask the Minister to clarify to Members of the House the reason for the transfer and whether the Preservation of Monuments Board will be merged into the National Heritage Board (NHP) and what he sees as the future directions of this Preservation of Monuments Board.

Sir, still on the subject of heritage. In understanding Singapore's root and history, one must always understand our National Anthem "Majullah Singapura". I remember that when I was a school boy in the 60s, we were taught to read and understand the wordings in the Anthem and to sing whenever it was played. The situation is quite different today. Not many Singaporeans really understand the wordings in the Anthem because they are in Malay, our national language, and not many Singaporeans sing whenever the Anthem is played.

May I therefore propose that the Government, through MITA, organise a national campaign to get Singaporeans to understand our National Anthem, the history and objective behind the wordings of the Anthem, and to encourage Singaporeans to sing whenever the Anthem is played. Sir, if Singaporeans were to fully understand the wordings and the meanings behind the Anthem, I am confident that they will sing the Anthem loud and clear and with great passion and pride showing their love for the country. 5.30 pm

Sir, I am proposing that MITA take on this task because I consider organising this campaign as part of our national effort to educate Singaporeans on our history and heritage.

Mr Peh Chin Hua: (In Mandarin): Sir, in his Addendum to the Presidential Address, BG George Yeo stated that the Ministry of Information and the Arts will continue to help make Singapore a renaissance city for information, culture and the arts in the 21st century. I strongly support this intention. I personally feel that in order to succeed in this effort to make Singapore a gracious city, we must, first of all, consider how to encourage Singaporeans to appreciate and enjoy our culture and arts.

As my Chairman of the GPC, Mr Chew Heng Ching, has said, many of our cultural events and exhibitions have received full support from the Government but the mass media of Singapore such as television, radio and newspapers give very little coverage or report on cultural events and exhibitions, unlike China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Even when there are reports, they are very unenthusiastic and very brief. They can hardly arouse the interest of the public. I think this is very regrettable. Perhaps the mass media may be looking at them from the commercial and business point of view and find that they are of no commercial value. In fact, if we want to promote arts and culture and to make Singapore a renaissance city for information, culture and the arts in the next millennium, the mass media plays a very, very important role. On the other hand, the success of making Singapore a renaissance city will also contribute to the growth and development of our mass media.

In Singapore, we have a lot of people who love the arts and culture and there is no difficulty in organising any cultural events and exhibitions. But it is very difficult for them to get the support from the mass media.

As the Vice-Chairman of the GPC for MITA, very often I was invited to officiate at these events, and I saw that there were hardly any news reporters present at these events. Some elaborately organised and meaningful cultural events and exhibitions did not receive good response from the public due to lack of publicity. This is very disappointing. To achieve our objective of making Singapore a renaissance city for information, culture and the arts, we need not only the support from the Government but also the support from the mass media and the keen participation of every Singaporean.

I hope MITA will look into ways to encourage the media to give our cultural events more coverage.

Mr Chew Heng Ching: Sir, I understand the Singapore Kindness Movement was registered as a society at the beginning of this year. It is a civic body with Institute of Public Character (IPC) status which means that donation to the body will be tax exempt. I understand its aim is to get Singaporeans to perform acts of kindness in their daily lives in line with our national efforts to promote gracious living.

Sir, many Singaporeans I spoke to about the Kindness Movement were a little confused. They thought, since we already have the Courtesy Campaign, why the need for a movement called the Kindness Movement. Does it mean that the Courtesy Campaign has failed? Many thought if it is really necessary to have the movement, why not combine or merge the movement with the Courtesy Campaign. And just as many ask if the Courtesy Campaign will be stopped with the launch of the Kindness Movement.

Sir, perhaps it is opportune for the Minister to explain to this House the objective and rationale behind the Singapore Kindness Movement, its plan for the future and what will happen to the Courtesy Campaign when the Movement is launched.

Sir, can I move on to the next cut?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Chew Heng Ching: Sir, I would like to ask the Minister to give the House an update on the Cable TV project. What percentage of the households in Singapore has been wired up to-date and when will all the households be eventually wired up? And how does the cable TV project fit into the Singapore IT 2000 Plan?

Sir, I understand the subscriptions among households which are already wired up remain very low. Why is that so? Is it because the TCS programmes are too attractive offering a better alternative?

Sir, the SCV has many channels providing info-educational, current affairs, cultural, sports, children's and entertainment programmes meeting the needs of Singaporeans from all walks of life. It is a pity that Singaporeans are not fully aware of this. I think the SCV must do more marketing and perhaps review its subscription fees to make them sufficiently attractive for households to subscribe. May I therefore ask the Minister what plans are in place to get more Singaporeans to subscribe to Cable TV? And in the event that SCV proves to be non-viable, will the Government come to their rescue?

Sir, may I move on to the next cut.

The Chairman: Yes, please.

Mr Chew Heng Ching: Sir, following feedback and suggestions from Members of this House some four years ago (I remember there was a heated debate on TCS programmes), MITA subsequently formed two Advisory Committees, ie, the Advisory Committee on Chinese Dramas and Variety Shows, or ACCESS as they call it, and the Programme Advisory Committee (PAC) to advise and provide feedback to TCS and RCS on their programmes. The Committees are well represented. They include some Members of this House and also Singaporeans holding positions of responsibilities in society and from all walks of life.

Sir, the Committees are into their third or fourth year of operations and have put up useful observations and recommen dations to TCS and RCS to improve their programmes. Indeed, I think the Committees have done well. The programmes of TCS and RCS today are a marked improvement from four to five years ago. And I think there is further room for improvement.

Both TCS and RCS remain receptive to suggestions for improvement and that are good signs. Sir, I propose that MITA regularly review the composition of ACCESS and PAC, and at each renewal time, when the two-year term expires, replace half the Committee and at the next renewal, replace the other half. In this way, we would continuously be able to inject new ideas and talents into the two Committees, and yet ensure continuity and consistency in their opinion and feedback.

Sir, even if the PAC and ACCESS have good representations, in terms of having Singaporeans from all walks of life represented in the two Committees, relying on their observations, feedback and suggestions alone is not enough. TCS should reach out to a wider network of audience and viewers to get feedback. And one useful network is certainly our grassroots organisations and our grassroots leaders in the constituency. These people have direct access and interactions with the constituents. Indeed, they get feedback from the horse's mouth. May I therefore ask the Minister if TCS has such a feedback mechanism, besides the PAC and ACCESS and, if so, what are they? How effective have all these feedback mechanisms been in helping TCS and RCS to improve their programmes?

Mr Peh Chin Hua: (In Mandarin): Sir, I would like to speak on the recommendations of the Programme Advisory Committee on TCS Chinese Dramas and Variety Shows. I would generally accept the recommendations of the PAC. But there are two observations I like to make.

In its mid-year report, the PAC pointed out that the Channel 8 programmes seem to be confined only to the Chinese and excluding all the other races. In this way, the production direction will be narrow in future. The Committee also pointed out that the news programmes in Channel 8 have less international news as compared to Channel 5, and people who speak only English are hardly invited to give their views and opinions in current affairs and financial programmes on Channel 8. In view of that, the Committee recommended that Channel 8 should widen its vision by having more international news and distinctive features of a multi-racial society of Singapore.

The above recommendation of the Committee is aimed at integrating the characteristic features of our multi-racial society. So the programmes should feature the different cultural backgrounds to meet the needs of each ethnic group. The Committee recommended that Channel 8 be more creative to improve the quality of its programmes. I think the objective is good and I can understand that. However, we must understand that Channel 8 and Channel 5 have their own groups of viewers. Just like the Lianhe Zaobao and the Straits Times, they have their own groups of readers. So the difference between these newspapers is that they have their own characteristics and different focuses. They have different values, different views and different perceptions to meet the needs of their respective readers. Therefore, we cannot expect Lianhe Zaobao to go along the lines of the Straits Times or the Straits Times to cater to the tastes of the readers of Lianhe Zaobao.

The same logic applies to TCS' Channels 8 and 5. The Chinese programmes on Channel 8 should maintain its characteristics. At the same time, it should seek to improve its quality of programming. When the Chinese programmes on Channel 8 are more interesting and rich in substance, the needs of the viewers will be better satisfied. Please do not make the news and programmes of Channel 8 to look exactly like those on Channel 5 and we do not want the programmes on Channel 5 to look exactly like those on Channel 8. Otherwise, we will disappoint both the Chinese-speaking and the English-speaking viewers.

In its report of 8th July, the Programme Advisory Committee recommended that TCS institute a dress code for its artistes attending prestigious events so as to ensure that their attire befits the occasion. I consider myself a conservative Singaporean. However, I feel that the dressing of TCS artistes at public events, whether in the past or present, is perfectly fine and there was no occasion of over-exposure. I only say that they are more daring and fashionable. TV artistes are not Ministers or Members of Parliament. They are also not teachers or lecturers who need to set an example for their students. So as artistes, their dressing is usually trendy and avant-garde, they may even be leaders in the fashion world. Personally, I feel that TCS artistes' dressing is fine so long as it is not too exposed and does not reflect bad motives. So modern, trendy, special and even sexy dressing is not a problem.

Just two years ago I mentioned in Parliament that there was a film called "Nell" which featured very clearly some nude scenes of the female body. If we could allow this film to be screened in Singapore, classified as "PG" and not "R(A)", why are we setting a double standard for setting a dress code for our TCS artistes? Singapore is an open society. It is also an international city. Our Government has plans to develop Singapore into a movie and television hub of Asia in the next few years. We should not draw up clauses to dictate the ways on how our TV artistes should dress themselves. If we do that, then we would not be able to attract some famous artistes, like Andy Lau, to come to Singapore. I think we may provide artistes with some advice on their image presentation and cultivate and enhance their cultural and artistic qualities. This will be helpful to our effort to realise our goal of becoming a movie and TV hub in Asia.

Dr Ho Tat Kin (Bishan-Toa Payoh): Sir, there are some attempts by TCS to inject more info-educational programmes for children in the mornings. But, as a whole, there are still too many cartoons in the schedule. There should be a better balance in the mix of children's programmes. Too many cartoons in the morning will distract children's attention from their homework. Besides, some of the cartoon series such as Street Sharks, Ninja Turtles, and so forth are too violent. TCS should instead produce children's programmes that reflect local culture and values. They could consider highlighting school concerts, school drama festivals, arts and craft achievements, school sports competition finals in the local children series. If TCS is unable to get suitable cartoons, then they should shorten the cartoon broadcast schedule and instead use the time slot available for something more useful, for example, showing some dialect series of movies in the morning for the entertainment of senior citizens. 5.45 pm

There are still many senior citizens who can only speak dialect. In the morning, there could be news, for example, in dialect which gives a summary of the important local news broadcast the previous day. After all, news is already broadcast over radio in dialect in the evenings. In this way, Sir, senior citizens who could not understand English or Mandarin could also be kept informed of the important developments in our country. This would prevent many misinterpretations of important Government policies through wrong translation or hearing from a third party.

Sir, local Mandarin dramas, particularly on Channel 8, still tend to be very melodramatic. For example, I have received feedback from my constituents that the story usually revolves round two men and a woman, or two women with one man, or rejected females will commit suicide, or turn to alcohol, or pick up some other man in the bar. These are not true reflections of life in Singapore. [Interruption]. Or maybe I am out of date.

Sir, TCS could also produce socially worthy programmes which highlight youth involvement in community work, promote a gracious society, show retirees how to stay active and contribute to society.

Sir, on public holidays, TCS should schedule more first-run movies. Repeats should be done selectively outside prime slots which should be reserved for news and good programmes. Sir, I hope the Minister could consider this feedback.

Mr R. Sinnakarupan (Kreta Ayer-Tanglin): Sir, the second season of the S-League has just ended. The soccer experts are writing up their analyses to rate the success of the season. Every sportsman in Singapore or even a primary school kid, who has only got some cursory interest in soccer, knows what was the biggest shortcoming of this season.

Sir, the biggest shortcoming is undoubtedly the lack of TV coverage of the League. In last year's season, a number of matches were shown live on TV but many of these matches, unfortunately, turned out to be uninteresting encounters. These uninteresting over exposures did not help the S-League either. It was because, in addition to showing these uninteresting matches, the lack of professionalism in placing and operating TV equipment and the lack of informed and positive commentary added to the problem. To show the game in full alongside the English Premier League certainly invites negative comments and the lack of TV professionalism compounds the error for a relatively intelligent football audience.

What is really needed is for the local TV stations to design and develop a programme which focuses on the positive elements of Singaporean football and encourages fans to identify with the teams. This can be achieved by a regular weekly half-hour show in a peak hour slot. The content of the show should be made entertaining, interesting, informative and challenging. The positive aspects of the S-League should be stressed, the skills, the atmosphere, the competition, not forgetting the sponsors, and the progress. In other words, actions should be kept to the highlights of the games, just the best moments, but of all the week's games.

Alongside the action should be segments designed to build the personalities and news of activities designed to develop football in Singapore. The focus of the show should not just be on looking back at the weekend's action but also looking forward in promoting the games coming up and publicising locations, kick-off times, ticket availability, etc, to encourage supporters to go to the games.

Sir, I understand that our local TV stations expect the S-League to pay a hefty sum of money to produce such a show or to have delayed telecast of the games. This is a very odd situation because, in many other countries, especially in Europe, and other parts of Asia and Australia, it is the TV stations who have to pay the sports associations hefty sums of money, in the order of millions of dollars, to get the rights to telecast the League games. True that our S-League is not yet well-established as, say, the English League or the J-League in Japan, but our local TV stations can do more to invest in local soccer which will pay off in later years, especially when soccer betting is introduced. They should also invest in satisfying the appetites of thousands of soccer fans. After all, watching soccer, besides shopping and eating, is a favourite pastime of Singaporeans.

Sir, I think the Minister himself is a soccer fan and I hope that he will take up this matter personally.

Mr Choo Wee Khiang: Sir, I used to be quite critical of TCS programmes and I must confess that I share the sentiments of Mr Chew Heng Ching that over the last few years, we have seen improvements. However, I think there is still room for improvement.

Sir, I would just like to quote you one example. Like many others in Singapore, I watch the TCS live coverage of the handover of Hong Kong from the British to China on the night of 30th June this year. I must say that I was quite disappointed with the way TCS treated the event. In my opinion, and also the opinion of many whom I have spoken to, TCS' coverage did not really reflect the solemnity and historic importance of the event in a way that one would have expected. Just to quote one example, Sir. In one instance, we were brought over to Chijmes where we saw TCS stars and all the actors and actresses having a good time there. And the commentator was describing and showing us what food they were eating that night. Some of those came to me and commented that they did not really care what a bunch of TCS actors and actresses were eating on a night like that.

What is the significance really of showing them partying away when the real event was happening in Hong Kong and Beijing? Where is TCS' sense of occasion? There were also people who were unhappy with the commentary and I share their opinion.

Sir, at times, if you really cannot beat them, you join them. In this instance, I think TCS would have done better by simply hooking on with one of the Hong Kong's stations rather than making our own presentation.

Mr Seng Han Thong (Ang Mo Kio): (In Mandarin): Sir, every year when we debate the budget for MITA, TV programmes have always been the focus of our debate because television has become part and parcel of the lives of our people, especially the HDB flat dwellers. In the evening, whenever I visit my constituency, I cannot help noticing this point. Almost every family watches TV. Some parents may be reading the Shin Min Daily News or the Lianhe Wanbao and their children would be watching TV. Whenever the Comedy Night is on the air, we hear laughter everywhere. Even the old folks would put down their newspapers and join in the fun. On the other hand, when there is a live telecast of an important football match, we hear shouts resembling the Kallang Roar everywhere in the HDB estates. Our TV programmes have gone deep into the people. But there may be a great change very soon. Why? Because we are speedily wiring up the whole of Singapore with television cables. .

Right now, I think quite a lot of households are already having access to cable TV. So all these entertainment, news, movie and sports programmes sent to the households through underground cables with super-high definitions can pose a challenge to TCS. For the time being, not many have signed up for subsrciptions with Cable TV. Perhaps it is because the fees are on the high side. I understand that when we have a critical mass of subscribers when the whole country is wired up, then the fees will be lowered, just as in the case of mobile handphones. Then, it will be a greater challenge to TCS. However, we should not be afraid of challenge. We should open up. But we should be fully prepared to face the new situation. In regional and world events, I think we should let Singaporeans view the events from the point of view of Singapore and our national interest. Mr Choo Wee Khiang referred to the programme on the Reunification of Hong Kong with China. I watched the programme too. I must say TCS has made a good presentation. It is a great world event. Through this programe, we have an understanding of the mindset of the Hong Kong people before the reunification. We saw the People's Liberation Army (PLA) marching across the border into Hong Kong. What is the impact of the reunification of Hong Kong with China on this region and on Singapore? I think the programme does not cover this aspect.

I feel that TCS should attach more importance to the analysis and comments on current affairs. When Singaporeans watch TV programmes, they like to switch channels from time to time. When they are watching news on our local channel, they may switch over to CNN or BBC News. Then there will be serious problems because they will be looking at problems from the foreigner's point of view. This is certainly not conducive to our efforts of attaining a consensus between the people and the Government.

After corporatisation, TCS programmes have improved by leaps and bounds, especially in news reports and current affairs. I think TCS should give more weightage to this kind of programme, give them greater emphasis and go one step further to extend its coverage to the other aspects of life. Interviewees should not be confined to the authorities, celebrities, specialists and experts in the respective fields. We could include also the man-in-the-street, students, housewives and other ordinary citizens. Let us listen to the ordinary people's views. I feel that, at the moment, TV programming is targetted too much on the youths, the educated and the families and, to an extent, neglecting the middle-aged and older people. I think the programme should also reflect the problems of the middle-aged people, especially the various problems on the changing wage structure and other problems generally faced by all the middle-aged and older people.

Sir, our population is aging rapidly, and the programming of TV should reflect this fact. If you are talking about purchasing power, I can say that the middle-aged and older people are equally strong in their purchasing power. So the sponsors can be rest assured that the programmes and the commercials that go with them will appeal to them too!

The Chairman: Order. Moment of interruption.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

The Minister for Information and the Arts (BG George Yong-Boon Yeo): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates for the financial year 1997/1998, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.