MIDWIVES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Order for Second Reading read.

11.46 am.

The Minister for Communications and Works (Mr M. P. D. Nair): Mr Speaker, Sir, I move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

Domiciliary midwifery is extensively practised in Singapore and, as you are aware,-

Mr Lee Kuan Yew rose-

Mr Speaker: On a point of order?

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Point of order, Sir.

Mr Nair resumed his seat.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: This Bill does not come within the province of our Minister for Communications and Works. Is it proper for him to move this Bill when, in fact, the Minister for Health was well enough to attend the banquet for the Duke?

Mr Speaker: Order. That is not a point of order. It is not within my province as to who moves Bills. Mr Nair.

Mr Nair: Thank you, Mr Speaker, Sir. Domiciliary midwifery is extensively practised in Singapore and, as all hon. Members are aware, our birth rate figures are rising and will continue to rise. It is therefore essential that midwives be experts in that field, both for the safeguarding of the lives of the mother and child and for maintaining their professional standards.

The Midwives Board, constituted under the Midwives Ordinance, find it therefore necessary to redraft the rules which govern the registration, training and supervision of midwives. In order that this may be effected, the Midwives (Amendment) Bill makes a number of amendments to the Midwives Ordinance, Cap. 192, so as to give the Board powers to do so.

An opportunity is taken to make the amendments so that reference to Christmas Island, the Cocos or Keeling Islands, is omitted and to correct the designations of the members of the Board so as to bring them up to date.

Clause 3 of the Bill amends section 3 of the Midwives Ordinance to remove the word "Central" in the title of the Midwives Board, as the Midwives Ordinance will only apply to Singapore, and to amend the definition of "local supervising authority" to bring it in line with the reorganisation of local government in Singapore.

Clause 5 of the Bill repeals and reenacts section 6 of the Ordinance in order to define more clearly the persons who are entitled to be registered under the Ordinance.

Clause 6 of the Bill amends section 7, to correct the designations of the persons who are to constitute the Board. It also gives the Board power to act when any vacancy occurs in its membership and to appoint such committees as it thinks fit to execute the duties and responsibilities on behalf of the Board.

Clause 7, which amends section 8, gives power to the Midwives Board to make such rules as may be required to be prescribed under the Ordinance. It also enables the Board to prescribe the fees to be paid by midwives and pupils.

Clause 9 of the Bill amends section 13 of the Ordinance so as to enable the register of midwives to be ready for publication in the Gazette in January of each year. The opportunity is also taken to make amendments and correct minor errors in the Midwives Ordinance.

Clause 4 deletes a provision of section 5 of the Midwives Ordinance, which should more correctly be included in section 6 of the Ordinance.

Clauses 8 and 10 of the Bill make minor corrections to the Midwives Ordinance.

Sir, I beg to move.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time and committed to a Committee of the whole Assembly.

Assembly immediately resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.-[Mr M. P. D. Nair].

Bill considered in Committee.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

11.50 a.m.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2-

Question proposed, "That clause 2 stand part of the Bill."

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am sorry that we do not have the Minister for Health present today. I had remarked that if he was fit enough to attend the banquet for the Duke, then he ought to be fit enough to move the Bill in the Assembly. However, since he is not here, could the Minister for Communications and Works tell us what is the purpose of clause 2? It says in the Explanatory Statement - if I could help him:

"Clause 2 of the Bill amends section 2 of the Midwives Ordinance to remove the references to Christmas Island, the Cocos or Keeling Islands and to the Singapore Rural Board area."

Could he explain why the Singapore Rural Board area is going to be removed?

The Chairman: Mr Nair?

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Postpone it until the Minister is well!

The Chairman: Order.

Mr Nair: The amendment is brought about as a result of the reorganisation of local government.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Surely the Minister did not expect to get away with that? What is this reorganisation of local government? How does this amendment bring into effect changes in the law to line up with the reorganisation of local government? If, in fact, he does not understand this Bill, may I suggest that the debate be postponed to a further day when the Minister responsible can be present to attend to this Bill?

Mr Shanks: Sir, the language of the existing section 2 is somewhat curious and refers to the Ordinance not coming into force in Christmas Island, or the Cocos or Keeling Islands or in any part of the Singapore Rural Board area without the Island of Singapore until such date or dates as the Governor by notification in the Gazette appoints.

It is now desirable to remove the Christmas Island and the Cocos or Keeling Islands provision - I do not think the hon. Member for Tanjong Pagar will misunderstand that - but this reference to any part of the Singapore Rural Board area has become unnecessary because, by clause 3, the local supervising authority is now being changed. At present the law has a somewhat complicated provision for providing that in the Rural Board area the officer performing the duties of the Chief Health Officer and in any other area the officer performing the duties of Health Officer in that area is by definition, the local supervising authority. Now we are changing that and simplifying it, so that the local supervising authority within the City remains the City Health Officer; but outside the City it is the Assistant Director of Medical Services (Health) - just one person. So we do not need any reference to parts of the Singapore Rural Board area. The phraseology of the new section 2 is perhaps a little unusual, but it seems that an attempt was made to make as few changes as possible in the Ordinance. The Christmas Island and Cocos or Keeling Islands references have been cut out and so has the reference to parts of the Singapore Rural Board area. It is now unnecessary to have any reference to parts of that area. It is unusual, but I think the hon. Member will find that, if he looks at this clause together with section 3 of the Ordinance as it will be when amended, it is in fact in order and reasonably satisfactory.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Mr Speaker, Sir, I am indebted to the Attorney-General for a very elaborate and complicated explanation. But I would like to make this point before we pass on to the other clauses. When a Bill is moved in this House, Members have the right to expect that the Minister who moves it knows what he is moving, otherwise we shall be making a mockery of the whole solemn process of legislation.

Mr Speaker, Sir, you have been at pains to maintain the dignity and the solemnity of this House. Those of us who want to see this Chamber retain its dignity in the eyes of the people are also anxious to see that we are not made into rubber stamps. When a Minister comes forward to explain what he is doing, we expect, first, that he knows what he is explaining; secondly, that he is in a position to elaborate further on anything which he has failed to explain, and, lastly, that he will have the courtesy to study his brief before he comes into this Chamber. It is not his business-

The Chairman: Order. I think the hon. Member has gone far enough. Mr Nair.

12.00 noon.

Mr Nair: Sir, I just want to make one comment. It is now clear that the hon. Member has raised his point intentionally and I do not believe for a moment that he did not understand it.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Did you?

Mr Nair: It is true that I did not reply fully, but I thought that I would refer to it later when we come to clause 3 (b) where it is specifically stated that outside the City of Singapore, the Assistant Director of Medical Services (Health) will be responsible.

Sir, I have come to the Assembly after reading very carefully through the Bill and I hope that I will be able to satisfy the Member on any question that he may raise. I hope that minor omissions of this nature will not be raised by the hon. Member who fully understands the meaning of this Bill.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: May I complete my observations? When the Minister for Communications and Works-

The Chairman: Order. I think all this is completely irrelevant to the clause. I think the hon. Member has gone as far as he ought to, and I think the Minister has answered as far as he has been able to.

Mr Francis Thomas (Nominated): Mr Speaker, Sir, I thought, before this matter was raised, that I understood this but I now feel that I do not. Could I have it clarified for me - that the effect of the new clause 2 is that the Governor will have to notify in the Gazette before the Ordinance operates in Pulau Tekong or in the Southern islands or in any of the outlying islands? Is that the effect of the new clause or not?

Mr Shanks: That is so, Sir. That is one effect of this change in clause 2.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 3 to 6 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7-

Question proposed, "That clause 7 stand part of the Bill."

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: May I give an opportunity to the Minister to show how well he understands this Bill? Why is it necessary, according to the Explanatory Statement, "to give the Midwives Board more extensive power to make rules in order to enable it to carry out its duties and exercise its power under the Ordinance"?

Mr Nair: Sir, the powers requested under this Bill are that the Midwives Board may act notwithstanding any vacancy in its membership, and, when it thinks it necessary, may appoint from among its members Committees to act on its behalf. The Midwives Board may also make any rules that may be required to be prescribed under the Ordinance. The Board may prescribe the fees to be paid by midwives and pupils.

I think, Sir, in the best interest of the service and of the efficient working of the Board, it is desirable that the Board should have these adequate powers.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: May I rephrase the question in a more simple way? There are certain existing powers given under the existing Ordinance. The note at the bottom of page 4 of the Bill says:

"Clause 7 of the Bill amends section 8 of Midwives Ordinance to give the Midwives Board more extensive power to make rules in order to enable it to carry out its duties and exercise its power under the Ordinance."

As a Member of this Legislature whose duty it is at least to understand what we are supposed to legislate, may I ask the Minister for Communications and Works why the former powers were inadequate and in what way they were found lacking so that this amendment is necessary? It is very simple.

Mr Nair: Sir, I have not been able to look into the working of the Midwives Board, but I am advised that they want to have adequate power for the efficient working of the Board. I assure the hon. Member that I will look into this question and I will give the information to him in writing.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: I must apologise for putting the Minister to such inconvenience. I would like to find out when he was so advised. Was it this morning before he was asked to read his speech in this Assembly, or was it some time before that? Was there sufficient time not only to digest but also to assimilate the matter that was placed before him?

Mr Nair: Sir, I think I have answered the question clearly. I have made an honest admission that I have not looked into the particular question before. I never thought for a moment that the hon. Member would not be aware of these things, but if the hon. Member can accept my assurance that I will look into it, then this matter can be closed. But if he wants to question me as to whether I understand the problem seriously, I think that is a different matter.

Mr Shanks: Mr Speaker, Sir, it is some little time since I personally had to consider section 8 of the Midwives Ordinance, but if my memory serves me right, some doubt has been cast on the powers of the Board to prescribe fees to be paid by persons who are not in fact midwives, and that I believe is the reason why an alteration is being made to paragraph (j) of section 8 of the Ordinance - by the addition of specific power to prescribe fees to be paid by pupils.

Now, I must confess that I cannot at the moment remember the precise details of why all these other alterations have to be made, but I do know that there was close consultation with the Ministry of Health and with the Midwives Board before this Bill was put into its final form. I observe in the present Ordinance that there is not the general provision now sought to be given by the additions referred to on page 4 of this Bill as paragraphs (k) and (l), although there is in section 8 power to frame various rules and to do various acts - the two things are separated. There is power to do acts reasonably necessary for the carrying out of the provisions of the Ordinance, and then there is specific power to frame rules, but those powers are limited, and the addition of the new paragraphs (k) and (l) will undoubtedly make for more freedom. I believe the Midwives Board has, in the past, found that its powers have been too closely circumscribed, and it is for that reason that they are now seeking to have their powers widened. There is nothing unusual in the widening now proposed. It is something that is quite common in most of our Ordinances, but perhaps the position was slightly different in 1923 when the Midwives Ordinance was first enacted.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Can I take the Attorney-General through another legislative exercise? If his memory can still serve him well, can he just recite to us, in respect of paragraph (k) "prescribing anything which is required to be prescribed under this Ordinance", what are the things required to be prescribed under this Ordinance?

Mr Shanks: I have no doubt I can oblige the hon. Member but it will take a little time. I shall want to read through the Ordinance from the first section to the last, word by word.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Am I right, Mr Speaker, Sir, that had we the privilege of the presence of the Minister for Health, he might have been more adequately informed of the meaning, intent and purport of this Bill?

The Chairman: That is a matter for anticipation.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 8 to 10 inclusive ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported without Amendment.

Third Reading

Mr Speaker: Third Reading, what day?

Mr Nair: Now, Sir, I move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

The Assistant Minister for Education Inche Mohamed Sidik Bin Haji Abdul Hamid (Southern Islands): Sir, I second it.

Question proposed.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: I have sat patiently through many a sitting in House. I know that the Member Southern Islands earns a very hard living for $1,500, supporting-

Mr Speaker: Order. We are now on the Third Reading of the Bill and the Standing Orders are quite clear. The debate on the Third Reading must be confined to the contents of the Bill, not to who seconds the Third Reading.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Yes. I am much obliged to you, Mr Speaker, for reminding me of that. What I want to remind the House of is that, both the mover and the seconder of the Third Reading of this Bill, whose arduous duties bring them to this House to move and second it, have shown in the course of this debate that they do not understand its purport and intent. In fact, a group of civil servants are setting out what are undoubtedly good principles in the Bill-

Mr Speaker: Order. I must stop the hon. Member. I do not think all those remarks are related to the contents of the Bill. The Bill is just an amendment of the Midwives Ordinance and therefore, as he probably knows, he ought to confine his remarks to specific clauses in the Bill.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: In summing up my point of view, may I say that had we been more adequately informed of its purport and intent, we might be in a better position to pass judgment on what we have already agreed to pass?

Mr Speaker: Of course, there is nothing to prevent the hon. Member from voting against the Third Reading. The Question is, "That the Bill be now read the Third time." As many as are of that opinion say 'Aye'.

Some hon. Members: Aye.

Mr Speaker: To the contrary, say, "No".

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: No.

Mr Speaker: I think the "Ayes" have it? The "Ayes" have it.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: Division, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member is a bit too late. I have declared, "The Ayes have it."

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.