MAIN AND DEVELOPMENT ESTIMATES OF SINGAPORE FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR 1ST APRIL, 1977 TO 31ST MARCH, 1978

Order read for consideration in Committee of Supply [5th Allotted Day].

3.00 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head W (cont.) -

Resumption of Debate on Question (18th March, 1977).

`That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1101.' - (Mr S. Dhanabalan).

Question again proposed.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Sir, in this Debate on the Budget estimates for the Ministry of Education, I wish to point out the remarkable success of the bilingual education policy implemented by the Ministry of Education. This remarkable success is evident to everyone at home and abroad. The successful effort of the Ministry of Education in this respect should be recognised and widely acclaimed by us.

However, I now wish to bring up a problem, also a fact, which is right before us. This concerns the successful candidates in the Government Secondary IV examination for the Chinese stream, who have entered Pre-U I classes. It was not until the 9th of March that the Ministry of Education released the list of successful candidates to the various schools. The successful students then reported at their respective schools on the 10th of March. They attended classes on 11th of March, but found that the first school term ended the following day, the 12th of March. They have paid a month's school fees for only one day's tuition. What is the rationale behind all this?

The Government Secondary IV examination for the Chinese stream was held in mid-November last year and the results were released on 5th February this year. The results, unlike in previous years, were not published in the press and the candidates concerned had to return to their respective schools to check their results. The successful students were required to return to their respective schools on 7th, 8th and 9th February to fill up the relevant application forms for admission to the schools of their choice. These forms had to be submitted by the various schools to the Ministry of Education for processing.

The processing is said to be done by computers and as such, in our mind, it must be time-saving, highly efficient and fast, and the newly admitted Pre-U I students should have been able to begin classes seven or ten days later. But, alas, they have to wait until two days before the end of the first term to start their first lesson. Just how much, may I ask, can they learn in the circumstances? What kind of education are we promoting?

The questions I wish to ask are firstly, the results of the Government Secondary IV examination for the Chinese stream were released on 5th February and completed application forms (for admission to Pre-U I) were all submitted to the Ministry for computerised processing on 9th February. But the Ministry of Education had to drag on until 9th March to release the lists of the newly admitted Pre-U I students to the various schools. What is the cause for such a long delay?

Secondly, does the Education Ministry know that much precious time of the students had been wasted? Or was there anything wrong with the Ministry's administration in dealing with this matter?

Thirdly, is it not a fact that the way the matter was handled had caused much precious time of the students to be wasted? Pre-U I teachers in many schools had no classes to teach. Is this not a waste of the taxpayers' hard-earned money? Singapore's population is just over two million people, and with so many people being employed by the Education Ministry yet the Ministry is so inefficient in its work. If the Education departments in countries like China and the United States, with large populations, were to follow our Education Ministry, then it would not be difficult to imagine how many people would have to be employed. However, the efficiency and the performance of the Education departments in these countries are not difficult to see.

Educating the young is a long term process and an arduous task. It is the mainstay of State policy, with politics, national defence, social and economic development and communications as its ramifications. In the early 1960s Western sociologists discovered, after much study and research, that education is the motivating force of national progress. The long delay by our Ministry of Education in handling the admission of Pre-U I students not only runs counter to the guiding principle of education but it also makes the Ministry guilty of dereliction. I hope that all Members of the House will take note of this. I also hope that the Education Ministry will pay attention to the work of students by exercising greater supervision over its staff, tightening its administration and raising efficiency.

Encik Sidek Bin Saniff (Kolam Ayer): Sir, one of the most important instruments of national endeavour for the progress of a country is education. Radical changes will be present in a country because of two vitally important factors: (1) its political system, and (2) within which is entrenched the values of its education policy.

We can justly feel proud that our country's education policy is one of the best in the world. It has successfully met the demands of the nation and the world, particularly in this part of the world. The implementation of our education system or policy is going on quite smoothly, starting from 1959 with our acceptance of the 1956 All-Party Report followed by the 1963 Lim Tay Boh Report and the Five-Year Education Development Plan (1966-70) aimed at producing quality students rather than quantity. 1966 saw the coming into operation of the bilingual policy. In 1968, as a manifestation of a more effective integration, integrated schools came into existence. In summary in the implementation of the first five-year plan, 1961-65, and the second five-year plan, 1966-70, emphasis was laid on increasing the number of secondary schools, free education, extra-curricular activities, better teachers, adequate paraphernalia and spacious buildings where academic and technical students were accorded the opportunity to move on to Pre-university or junior colleges after 1969. Students from vocational schools had the opportunity to proceed either to the Singapore Vocational Institute or the Polytechnic.

Subsequently, a programme for the restructuring of primary education was put forward in 1975 for reasons known only to the authority. The restructured education system, which was the result, I was told, of two years' painstaking study, was rescinded and replaced by a system currently in force and, that is. the streaming of primary schools, a move that gives two interpretations:-

(1) firm belief in their decision for something better or meritorious will emerge;

(2) it shows for the first time that there is an absence of "continuity" in the implementation of the whole policy. We have made the decision. It is now our responsibility to see that this system works in the best possible manner. Towards this end. I would be most grateful if the Minister could reiterate to the House the criteria for the channelling of pupils, with particular reference to Primary I.

As regards the shortage of teachers, especially English language teachers, I think that while we need teachers from overseas it is worthwhile to seek an alternative to resolve the problem. For example:

(1) provide a re-employment scheme for retired teachers;

(2) persuade housewives to resume employment;

(3) train teachers from the non-English streams, especially the Chinese and Malay streams, which are now in excess in that particular subject and also in other appropriate subjects so that the position of these teachers will become more viable.

Sir, meanwhile, I feel that it is the responsibility of the Ministry to monitor the response or reaction of pupils as well as teachers towards overseas teachers and also their relationship with local teachers. We certainly hope that something positive can emerge arising from our efforts.

The shortage of teachers has necessitated in the recruitment of relief teachers. These relief teachers have helped to tide over the lack of teachers. Their contributions cannot be denied. At the same time, as an educationist. I think we must direct our efforts towards producing sufficient trained teachers at some future date. In this respect, I would like to ask the Minister whether he has set any target date in resolving this problem in this connection.

Sir, we interminably hear that teachers grumble when Ministry officials visit their schools. They are quite unhappy with the attitude adopted by a few of these officials. This must be checked. At the same time, I notice that last year when such visits were made by senior Ministry officials headed by the Permanent Secretary, they were well received by principals and teachers alike. I feel that it would be a source of great encouragement if the Hon. Minister concerned can enlighten the House as to what extent such visits have helped to boost the morale of our teachers. I am confident that a good policy, a good system executed in a proper manner, particularly with regard to human relationship, will produce more fruitful results. I would like to suggest that a study be made by the Hon. Minister of these visits, that is by the Education Development Officer (EDO) and the Permanent Secretary. The results will be worth our while for future reference and guide.

Sir, I am happy to note that there will be a promotion exercise this year. My ardent hope is that the Minister will pay special attention to those teachers whose salaries, if I may be permitted to borrow the words from the Minister for Culture and Science and Technology, are "the lowest of the low" in the teaching profession. These are the teachers who have stagnated at lower than $1030, the maximum salary for an Education Officer. Group III. I earnestly hope that these teachers could be emplaced on EO III scale. Most of them are over 40 years old and do not possess certain required qualifications, but one thing I am sure is that they have contributed immensely to the progress of our education.

3.15 p.m.

The Senior Minister of State for Education (Mr Chai Chong Yii): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, last Friday when the House adjourned there were two Members who spoke on this same item. This item relates to the administration of the Ministry of Education. Educational administration is a very difficult and sensitive matter as it will easily arouse criticism. Furthermore, if the criticism is not proper, then although the intention may be good, the result will be bad. I feel that to do well in educational administration, it is necessary to follow what Lu-Shun had said: that one should be stout and cool enough to face the criticisms of a thousand men, yet be humble and willing enough to serve even a child. I think if the principle is practicable, then it may yet serve the purpose somehow. About educational officers, although they do not profess to be education specialists, they do know a lot about education. So, if there is anything that the newspapers like to play up the result will be that the aim of such criticism is not achieved; on the contrary, the mood of the teachers is adversely affected. Thus, in the end the children in our schools suffer.

Let me give an example. The Member for Bedok attacked the Ministry of Education when he spoke on the estimates on the Ministry of Home Affairs. But he forgot to mention in the House that he was speaking only in the capacity of an MP because he was also a school principal himself. Therefore, the next day there was a big headline in the Straits Times to the effect that somebody had said that the officials in the Ministry of Education were not cooperative in the anti-drug campaign, and that they even tried to frustrate the efforts of the Central Narcotics Bureau. If he had any information he should give me the details, that is, the name of the principal, and so on. When he spoke of this in this House the debate was on the Ministry of Home Affairs. That is why I did not reply. The next day there was a big headline in the press. So the parents were confused and worried. I do not mean that he cannot speak on such matters. But I do not think there are instances of Ministry of Education officials trying to frustrate the efforts of the Central Narcotics Bureau to stamp out drug addiction. If there is any such instance, please let me know and I will take immediate action.

Sir, now let me answer questions raised by various Members. The Member for Kallang appealed on behalf of those disabled children and urged the Ministry of Education to pay greater attention to this category of children. With regard to these handicapped children, their education has all along been undertaken by various voluntary organisations. They were well looked after by them. But it does not mean that the Ministry of Education does not concern itself with their welfare. It is very concerned with their educational needs. But things differ in their degrees of importance and there is different priority with every matter. Up to the present time what I can say is that these voluntary organisations have done quite well in looking after the educational needs of these handicapped children. The Education Ministry is also helping them in all possible ways. This Ministry has sent out 60 teachers to help these organisations to run the classes and their salaries are, of course, paid by the Ministry of Education. Apart from this, every year the Ministry of Social Affairs also provides grants to help them. This has been the policy, though I do not say this is an ideal way of doing it. Before this question was brought up, we have already talked with the Ministry of Finance on how to solve this problem and whether these classes for such children should be taken over by the Ministry of Education or whether they should be treated as aided schools and assistance rendered to them as such. But the question is not so simple. In principle, there is no great problem. But in actual fact these organisations are quite different from the aided schools. So this matter requires further consultation. His suggestion is quite agreeable to me in certain aspects and I will continue to pay attention to it. But there are many ramifying problems which cannot be solved now and here. The schools for handicapped children run by these organisations have accommodated 1,126 students and we have sent out 60 teachers to teach in these classes, 22 of whom have received specialised training in educating handicapped children and the rest have received other professional training. I do not want to spend too much time on details as there will not be enough time to answer other questions.

Coming to the various questions raised by the Member for Changi. He talked about the Ministry's recruitment of teachers from England and other countries and put forward certain advice. On Friday I had already clarified the postion in this regard that we would pay special attention to this matter. But there are not many such teachers, and their number will not be allowed to increase very much. I must stress that this is not the only way to solve the problem of the shortage of teachers. This is only a short term or make-shift measure to solve the problem. The long-term solution chiefly lies in a greater intake of trainee teachers into the Institute of Education. In 1976 the Institute of Education recruited a total of 547 trainee teachers. out of which 272 were graduate trainee teachers and 275 were non-graduate trainee teachers. In the first half of this year. 276 were recruited, out of which 115 were graduate trainees and 161 were non-graduate trainee teachers. In July this year the Institute of Education will take in more trainees to be trained as teachers. This is the main counter measure. Apart from this, we also provide an unrestricted number of scholarships and bursaries for university studies to those youths who like to take up teaching as a profession. We have also had arrangements with the authorities concerned in England, Australia and New Zealand on teacher exchange programmes so that we can send teachers in Mandarin in exchange for teachers in English. These are some of the measures we have taken to solve the shortage of teachers.

He mentioned about a teacher who was recently asked to leave Singapore, who had taught in the International School, now called the United World College. I would like to stress here that this is a private school. The teachers were not recruited by the Ministry of Education. If they were recruited by us. they would have to go through certain procedures. Of course, we cannot guarantee that one or two undesirable elements will not infiltrate our teaching profession. However, this possibility is not great. But we will pay attention to his advice as to whether such teachers would produce any undesirable influence on our teachers and students.

The Member for Kolam Ayer also enquired about the teachers' and pupils' reaction. I can say that up till now the reaction is quite positive and favourable, and they have carried out their duties as teachers quite well.

The Member for Changi touched especially on the lowering standard of English in schools. As a matter of fact, I have read certain reports that even in England the standard of English has gone down. So it is not just in Singapore. On Friday, the Senior Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Labour has also referred to a drop in the standard of Chinese. It is a matter of opinion whether or not there is a drop in the language standard. In the past our forebears probably read only one book in school. Therefore, they had higher demands and could be very strict and meticulous about the form and grammar of the language and tolerating no mistakes. However, in the modern society this has changed. With most of the young people, their attitude is quite different. They are quite tolerant of language mistakes. The problems of examinations and others may have some bearing on this. But I believe the change in attitude is a crucial factor. However, we do not say that we condone a low standard of English. Of course, we should at least strive for a minimum standard to ensure that the language used is not faulty, if not excellent, and would be sufficient for one to develop and build on. That is one chief reason why recently we issued circulars to schools stipulating that from 1979 students wishing to go to the pre-university classes or junior colleges must attain a certain minimum standard in language. We believe that if the attitude is correct the language standard of our youths will be gradually raised.

Another problem touched on by him and which was also touched on by the Member for Kolam Ayer, relates to relief teachers. A few of these relief teachers are teachers trained by the Institute of Education. They will eventually take up teaching as their profession. But for the time being, because of certain administrative problems, these teachers are not yet able to fill up suitable posts, so they remain where they are. Sometimes this is because the subjects they mastered do not fit in with the requirements of the school. This is only temporary. In other cases, certain trained teachers have given up teaching. But in the meantime because of good ties with the principal or of other reasons these teachers do not mind going back to the schools to help do a stint. Most of the relief teachers do not teach for long. It is not possible to give all of them training. I must inform the House that before these relief teachers take up teaching we have instructed the principals to brief them on professional guidance wherever possible, so that they can cope with the job more efficiently, and the principals have also complied.

3.30 p.m.

The Member for Kolam Ayer also touched on this point. He asked when we would stop engaging relief teachers. I cannot give him a date. Under any circumstances, we will need relief teachers unless we employ far more teachers whose sole purpose is to temporarily fill up vacant posts whenever the serving teachers go on leave or fall sick. We cannot do that financially. Therefore, under these circumstances, it is not possible to stop recruiting relief teachers. There can be no fixed date, in fact, the date to stop engaging such relief teachers will be remote.

Touching on the Member for Khe Bong's criticism, this relates to what I said just now. The speech was full of exaggeration. I do not deny that recently the Chinese Secondary IV students had started their school term late by five working days. Last year, the examination results were announced on 6th February 1976 and the school commenced on 1st March. This year the results were announced on 5th February and school commenced on 10th March. The delay was partly because of the Chinese New Year holidays. This year the time taken was 24 working days against 19 days last year. In fact, we do not want to delay and waste even a day. The delay for this year was due to several reasons. First, there was a greater number of applicants. Last year there were 2,500 applications. This year there were 3,100 applications. The second reason was due to wrongly filled forms. There were 500 of them. The applicants filled up subjects which were not provided by the schools concerned.

The Member also alleged that computerised processing was faster. I am not a computer expert but I have some knowledge about computers, because I have gone through some courses. I know that the computer is not infallible or cannot do everything. If you do not know how to use the computer, it cannot help you at all.

The computer can facilitate or expedite the processing of application forms, only if the data and programming are correct and proper. Any delay, even for one day, is not good. However, we must look at it from a wider angle. I must thank him for bringing it up here. But if his criticism is highlighted in the newspapers the next day, and my answer is given a small space in the newspapers the result will be misleading. I do not think this is his intention. Is it? Therefore, although the intention is good the result may not be good.

The Member for Kolam Ayer touched on several points and I have answered some of them. He asked why before the restructured education system was fully implemented it was superseded by the new system. This restructured education system had engaged much of our time in its planning. Basically this education system was still geared to the needs of average and above average students. There was no provision for retention classes. However, before implementing this system, some very important information had come to hand. We found that the automatic promotion system had produced a backward symptom among many students, especially those below average intelligence. They were very weak in mathematics and language. They become the so-called "educational illiterates". They could not speak Mandarin or English. This is a very serious problem. We therefore did not implement this restructured education system but straightaway reverted to the traditional system with certain modifications in streaming to meet educational requirements of the below-averaged. This is well-known to all and we are not ashamed about this. Since the system was not practicable and had we persisted, it would not be in the interest of education.

The Member also enquired how the streaming of students was carried out. I would stress that there is no streaming at the Primary I level. Because in Primary I we just take in pupils without regard to their intelligence or their capability. They are just taken in at random. There is no bio-data streaming in Primary I. Actual streaming only takes place at the Primary II level according to their scholastic results and performance. If there is only one class in the school, of course there is no streaming. It chiefly depends on the number of classes available. It also depends upon the facilities and the type of teachers in the school. Basically, the streaming is dependent upon their results in mathematics and languages, first language and second language, for Primary II and III. For Primary IV, V and VI, science is also taken into consideration when streaming them.

The Member also enquired whether we intended to recruit those teachers who had retired to meet the shortage of teachers. In fact, we are doing so. Those who are good in teaching, physically fit and are willing to stay on, and the subjects they teach are those that we require to meet the shortage, then we welcome them back. But it sometimes happen that they do not want to come back. And sometimes what they are able to teach are not the subjects for which we are short of teachers.

The Member also suggested whether we should employ married lady teachers who had given up teaching in our schools. He may be surprised to hear the figures I am going to give. At present 42% of the teachers in our schools are married lady teachers. Therefore, it is not the question of all married lady teachers giving up teaching. Actually I would like to see more male teachers in the secondary schools, because they are dealing with adolescents. I think male teachers are more suitable than lady teachers for the boys, and vice versa for the girls. Generally boys have problems that require male teachers to tackle while girls prefer lady teachers for help. So teaching should not be confined to either male or female teachers. The present trend is that the number of lady teachers is increasing. There are more and more lady teachers. Among the present group of serving teachers, more than 60% are women, speaking on a national basis. Most of these lady teachers are in the primary schools where they account for about 67%.

The Member for Kolam Ayer also asked whether we were retraining those redundant Chinese and Malay medium teachers. Yes, we are doing this. Those who possess a certain passable standard of English will be given retraining, so that they can be sent to teach in another medium. Those who are not so good in English will be deployed to the type of work that does not require a high standard of English.

The Member also mentioned another point. He said that the Education Officers' visits to schools had led to storms of complaints and dissatisfaction among the teachers. But when the Permanent Secretary with his retinue of administrative officers went round to certain schools, he was received warmly. This is plausible. Yet not quite so. In fact, there were both Education Officers and administrative officers accompanying the Permanent Secretary when he made his round of schools. It was reported once that some dissatisfaction and complaints had been generated by visits of professional officers to schools. But that had long since been over, and I am not here defending them. He should make specific references. He should not generalise upon some random examples, because this would cause certain anxiety among the people concerned. The purpose of the visit was to explain to the teachers and the principals the education policy and to enhance the understanding between the teachers, principals and Ministry officials.

3.45 p.m.

The Permanent Secretary and his senior officials have visited 120 schools to-date. This includes schools, junior colleges, AEB centres and vocational institutes, and there have been thorough and harmonious discussions between the officials and the teachers, in arriving at a mutual understanding of the practical problems of education, with the result that many forums and seminars have been conducted by the Ministry for the benefit of the teachers. All these are being done without publicity. We do not want to talk so much about it because it is not going to help in our educational work. So we do not want to publicise our effort unless we have to. These are all undertaken quietly. Therefore, I quoted a saying by Lu Shun, a Chinese literatus, that we would just carry on our work quietly without pomp.

The Chairman: Mr Chai, you have devoted a lot of time on this amendment. There are another 12 amendments to go.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: I have completed my reply, Sir.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): In his reply to me just now, the Minister of State said that I had exaggerated in what I had said. I can tell the House that I did not exaggerate. However. I feel that he has exaggerated in his reply, because he admitted that the school term had started quite late this year compared to last year. The date for admission had been delayed. Therefore, what I had criticised has not been an exaggeration.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: (In Mandarin): Sir, I will reply in one sentence. The Member said that our educational efficiency is very poor when it is well regarded in this region, therefore this is an exaggeration.

Mr Ho See Beng: (In Mandarin): Sir, I think he has misunderstood me. What I meant was that we have only about two million people, yet we are making use of so much manpower. If we had a population equal to the United States or China, how are we going to tackle our educational problems? So comparatively our results are poor. This is a comparison with other countries.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: (In Mandarin): Because of limited time, I do not like to dispute with him over this. I would like him to offer me more data on these countries.

Mr S. Dhanabalan (Kallang): Sir, since the Senior Minister of State has said that his Ministry is having discussions with the Ministry of Finance to take over the education of handicapped children, I would like to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Dr Lau Teik Soon (Serangoon Gardens): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head w be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 1101*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr J. F. Conceicao).

Sir, in relation to the teaching profession, the role of the Directorate is most crucial. The responsibilities of the Directorate would include. I think, the following: to define the specific duties of primary and secondary school teachers, to suggest improvements in teaching methods and to create rapport between the educationists in the Ministry and the teachers in the schools. To undertake these responsibilities, I would expect that besides being able administrators, the top men in the Directorate should be persons with a wealth of teaching experience and persons with pleasant personalities who can communicate easily with the teachers and impart to them their profound knowledge on education.

Sir, I am certain that there are many in the Ministry who have these qualities but there are one or two very senior officials who do not seem to possess them, and unfortunately, the latter seem to have an impact on the teaching profession. To be specific, Sir, there are one or two high officials who have been found wanting: they have shown by their deeds and words that they are incapable of making positive suggestions on how teaching could be an interesting and worthwhile profession. Instead, Sir, they seem to have made ridiculous suggestions and even humiliated certain teachers, and in the process, created an atmosphere of anxiety and loss of morale among the teachers.

Sir, lest I be accused of generalising, let me give you an illustration. There is one senior official in the Directorate who has been referred to as the D.D. To many teachers, it stands not for "Deputy Director" but for other things. By his actions he seems to assume the image of overlord of the teaching profession. According to The Mentor, (Vol. 5. No. 3) the journal of the Singapore Teachers' Union, the D.D. has been quick in making suggestions to teachers on how they should perform their duties; suggestions included the following: teachers should take turns to go to school on Sundays, they should help pay school fees, they should buy their own textbooks, they should eat with their pupils during recess and teachers should be tested in their teaching subjects before their own pupils.

Further, Sir, there have been considerable remarks in the teaching community that the D.D. delights in humiliating, harassing and, worse, intimidating teachers, especially primary school lady teachers.

Sir, isolated or periodic rumours should be dismissed, but if they persist, there must be an element of truth in these statements. In my view, the key officials of the Directorate must show an example of good education and good character to say the least, and when the leading educationists demonstrate a lack of these qualities, then something is seriously amiss. Sir, I earnestly urge the Hon. Minister to examine the state of affairs in the Directorate and, if necessary, remedy the ills that have existed for the past few years.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: (In Mandarin): Sir, in view of the shortage of time, may I be allowed to answer the Member's question first?

The Chairman: That is up to you, Mr Chai.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, Sir, this accusation is quite serious. This had happened quite a long time ago and had since been resolved. The Member for Serangoon Gardens himself had said that he could not ascertain whether this was true or not, as it was only hearsay. Since he heard it from certain quarters, he had deemed it to be true. I would say that this is quite unfair. It is not fair to attack in this House somebody who is outside this House. By "D.D.", I think he was referring to the Deputy Director of the Ministry of Education who was the former principal of the National Junior College. But opinions differ. Some people criticised but others praised him. So on such matters to criticise him in such a way will not do any good to anybody -

Dr Lau Teik Soon: Sir, may I have your permission to interrupt? I was not referring to her at all.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: (In Mandarin): Sir, this matter is an old issue, so I was making a guess. "D.D." seems to refer to the Deputy Director. If it is not this person, well and good. If it is somebody else, can the Member kindly let me know who is that person in the education profession, and I will be very willing to investigate into the matter?

Dr Lau Teik Soon: In view of what the Senior Minister of State has said, my only concern is that there have been considerable statements with reference to the person concerned. I shall specifically mention to him the name of the person, and I hope that the Senior Minister of State will seriously look into the matter. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood on the Order Paper Supplement - Mr J. F. Conceicao: Mr Ahmad Haleem: Haji Sha'ari bin Tadin:

(4) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CCA 1101.

The Chairman: Mr Conceicao.

Mr J. F. Conceicao (Katong): Sir, since there does not seem to be very much time for what I want to say, and that is quite a lot, I do not want to move the amendment.

The Chairman: You have another four minutes, Mr Conceicao.

Mr Conceicao: That is all right. Sir.

The Chairman: Mr Ahmad Haleem is not here. Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin.

Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin (Bedok): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CCA 1101.

Since the establishment of the Extra Curricular Activities Centre in 1967 a tremendous effort has been made by those concerned to improve the physical health and develop the talents of school children both at the primary and secondary levels. This is evident in the extra-curricular activities in uniformed organisations, music and dance, and physical education. The enthusiasm that has been injected over the years through the emphasis on ECA in schools has brought about the formation of school bands, the biennial Youth and Music festivals and, most important of all, the physical development of school children through participation in games and physical education lessons. In other words, through ECA the children's talents and potential are being exploited. All these are good.

However, Sir, I would like the Minister of State for Education to inform the House whether (1) there is any move to establish a Physical Education Institute or to enlarge the present Department of Physical Education in the Institute of Education to overcome the present shortage of qualified P.E. teachers in schools. (2) Has any survey been conducted to find out the proper utilisation of P.E.-trained resources among the schools? (3) What are the required staffing needs for teaching physical education in both the primary and secondary schools in the Republic? Are these needs being made? I ask these questions. Sir, because there seems to be some unhappiness among those teachers -

The Chairman: Haji Sha'ari, guillotine time is at 4.00 p.m.

Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin: Yes, Sir. Sir, there seems to be some unhappiness among teachers who have been asked to take P.E. in schools, when they are not trained to do so. Also, there seems to be a feedback that those trained in P.E. are not fully utilised in teaching physical education. Could the Minister enlighten the House on these questions?

The Chairman: Mr Chai, you have only one minute to reply.

Mr Chai Chong Yii: (In Mandarin): Sir, we do not have the intention to set up a Physical Education Institute or expand the P.E, section of the Institute of Education at the moment. We will try our best to make full use of trained teachers as physical education teachers. We have made some studies. At the moment there are altogether 826 teachers who are trained and are teaching physical education in the schools. We shall make full use of the trainees for physical education but because of their age some may not be able to do so. So not every one who is trained in physical education will be put to teach physical education. In the primary schools there are some teachers who are not specially trained. We pay attention to all these.

Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.00 p.m.

The Chairman: Order. Time is up.

The time allotted for Head W having expired, the following amendments were not proceeded with: Mr Sia Khoon Seong: (5) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CEA 1101. (6) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 2420. Mr J. F. Conceicao: (7) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead AAA 3020. Mr Ho Kah Leong: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon: (8) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item (b) of subhead AAA 3020. Dr Lau Teik Soon: (9) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item (c) of subhead AAA 3020. Mr Sia Khoon Seong: (10) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 4003. Mr Ng Kah Ting: (11) That the sum to be allocated for Head w be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CCA 2020. Mr J. F. Conceicao: (12) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of item (a) of subhead CCA 3020. Haji Sha'ari Bin Tadin: (13) That the sum to be allocated for Head W be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CCA 3020. Mr Ng Kah Ting: (14) That the sum to be allocated for Head w be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CDA 8104. The sum of $409,693,410 for Head W ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates. The sum of $61,730,000 for Head W ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head X -

The Chairman: Amendment (1)* Mr Teong Eng Siong is not here. Mr P. Govindaswamy.

*Amendment (1) standing in the names of Messrs Teong Eng Siong, P. Govindaswamy, Sia Khoon Seong, Ch'ng Jit Koon and Dr Ong Leong Boon, reads as follows:-

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004.

Mr P. Govindaswamy (Anson): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 1004.

Sir, the Post Office Savings Bank's Giro System is rendering a great service to many people, especially office workers, in settling their bills, like HDB rentals, property tax, PUB bills, etc. This is highly commendable. I wonder whether this Giro System could be extended to the collection of other taxes like income tax, HDB conservancy charges, TV and Radio licences, etc. This will, in fact, help many of the office workers to settle their bills with much ease.

Sir, turning to tourism, the Finance Ministry says that it will encourage more tourists to come to Singapore and increase the number of group tours by getting more chartered flights into Singapore. I wonder what is being done to encourage tourists to fly by SIA. How is our national airline, SIA. progressing and how is it doing in competing with other airlines? Could the Minister comment?

I would also like to know how is our trade with the Western countries? Are we getting ample markets from the West?

Next, on the subject of the Civil Service. It appears that many officers have reached the top of their salary scale and have stagnated for many years. If an officer's salary has been stagnated for many years and he has still got many more years to serve, then what quality of work can we expect from the officer? Human failings will definitely be evident. The quality of his performance will be affected because there is no more incentive as future promotions will not be forthcoming, and moreover age also is a barrier. Could the Minister give some facts and figures of the number of officers who are in this category? For this reason I know that the performance of many officers has dropped. I suggest that a study should be conducted of all the officers both in the Civil Service and the statutory bodies, to assess their capabilities and potentialities and to think of a way to emplace them on an adjusted salary scale.

Sir, I must compliment the Government for paying the employees of Government and statutory boards the 13th month allowance. This is a step in the right direction. For a very long time the wages and salaries of Government employees have been lower than that of the private commercial sector. But what is disheartening is the conditions imposed on the payment of the 13th month allowance. In order to receive this allowance, an employee should be in service up to and including 31st December of that year. Many older employees, particularly those in Division IV, such as postmen, medical and health servants, school servants and so on, did not have the date of birth written in their birth certificates and the Government has allotted them 31st December of the year in which they were born as their date of birth. The Government, as the employer, retires them on 30th December because they would have passed the retirement age on 31st December, and therefore deny them payment of the 13th month allowance. This is grossly unjust and no amount of explanation can convince any person that this is not unjust. The Government also denies payment of the 13th month allowance to those who retire or die within the year.

Recently, we read in the press and even heard from the hon. Member for Alexandra of two cases; one was an employee of the Housing and Development Board and the other was employed by the Telecommunications Authority of Singapore. Both employees died while in service. In the case of the HDB employee, a technician, he died on 21st December, 1976 Initially, the HDB demanded the refund of his salary 22nd December, 1976 the parents of the late employee. They also demanded from, the parents the refund of the 13th month allowance.

Soon after the HDB case, the Straits Times on 9th March, 1977 stated that the TAS had demanded the refund of wages from the widow of one of its 30th December, 1976. This employee was trying to erect a telephone pole in heavy rain in-

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy. We are dealing with the Ministry of Finance and not the Ministry of Communications.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes, I am talking on a subject involving the Ministry of Finance. The Hon. Minister has said that if there is any matter which is connected with his Ministry, I can bring it up in the Committee of Supply. I am bringing it up now.

The Chairman: So you are bringing up all the matters which come under the Minister's charge.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Yes, everything that comes under the Minister's charge.

The employee was then working in Clementi Park. The pole slipped and fell on him and killed him. Here is an employee who was killed while performing his work. The TAS demanded from the widow the sum of $13.98 cents being the amount of wages for 31st December, 1976 which was already paid to him on 20th December, 1976 since he was a monthly-rated employee. Is this reasonable? The man had died and his salary had already been paid. They wanted to recover the salary from the widow. This is not justified. The two statutory boards have not been sympathetic in these two cases. The TAS also demanded the refund of the 13th month allowance from the widow.

From the newspaper reports, I learn that the union is contesting the right of the employer to demand the refund either from the parents or the widow. I do not know the law in this respect but I am concerned with the image of the Government in the eyes of the public. The Straits Times wrote an editorial on 10th March and I have a copy of the editorial here. If the Minister wants it I will hand it over.

The Nanyang Siang Pau also Wrote an editorial which was reproduced in the New Nation on 14th March, 1977. In the last paragraph of their editorial they proposed that the 13th month allowance should be paid in proportion to an employee's service. I also have a copy of the editorial from Nanyang Siang Pau.

Sir,I do not know of any private employer who has denied the payment of bonus to his employees because an employee has died on 30th December and did not work on 31st December, I have also not heard of any private employer who has denied payment of bonus to an employee who, after 30 years of service, retires or dies before 31st December. The usual practice is to pay in full or on a pro rata basis. I would urge the Minister for Finance to seriously consider amending the rules so that Government and statutory board employees who retire or die in service before 31st December will be paid the 13th month allowance on a pro rata basis.

Sir, again, the 13th month non-pensionable annual allowance which has been given to our workers in the past few years has caused some administrative problem in the computation of this allowance, as far as the daily-rated workers are concerned. This annual allowance is normally paid to a worker with certain restrictions, like working for the whole year before he is eligible for it. The payment is normally made towards the end of the year. Like the monthly-rated workers, the daily-rated workers are also paid at the same time, which is fair to them. But then when the computation of this allowance is made, I believe many departments have a cut-off date for the calculation of this allowance for daily-rated workers. I understand it is normally in the middle of December. However, after the payments have been made towards the end of the year, many daily-rated workers may be absent from their place of work for various reasons, thereby the question of deducting proportionately from this allowance comes in for those workers who have been away for more than 16 days in a year.

In a department where thousands of daily-rated workers are employed, it appears that after being paid the 13th month allowance, the authorities have to re-check the attendance of all their workers till the end of the year and then make adjustments on the 13th month allowance. And when adjustments are made, it means a recovery of their money. Sometimes, it is not an easy business to recover the money, because some of the daily-rated workers may not turn up any more or they will dispute it when their pay is being recovered. This problem has become an annual affair. To simplify the payment of this 13th month allowance. I suggest that those who have worked up to and including 30th November, instead of 31st December, should be entitled to the full eligibility of the 13th month allowance and that payment could be made towards the end of the year.

The Chairman: Mr P. Govindaswamy, your 10 minutes are up. Mr Sia Khoon Seong and Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon are not here. Dr Ong Leong Boon.

Dr Ong Leong Boon: Sir, last year during the Budget Debate, I raised the subject of equal medical benefits for female Government officers, and I was assured by the Hon. Minister for Finance that he would look into the matter. He said [Hansard, Vol. 35, col. 936]:

`These Government regulations have a very long standing, and perhaps they may need to be looked into again In the Context of our present society, while the responsibility still lies with the husband in many households. I am not quite sure that the guideline is still relevant for others Obviously we have to look into these regulations which are of historical interest, rather than to meet the present situation'.

Sir, it is a full year since, and his Ministry has shown once again a propensity for selective amnesia. May I take this opportunity to remind the Hon. Minister.

Sir, medical care is provided to a Government officer and his family at all Government hospitals and clinics - treatment is free at outpatient clinics and a nominal ward charge is levied for hospitalisation. As laid out in the Instruction Manual No. 2:

`an officer means and includes an officer or pensioner of the Government of Singapore, or a woman officer who is a widow or divorcee or who has been granted a decree of judicial separation, and is the sole supporter of her family.'

The term "family" is defined as:-

(a) a wife and child (or children) in the case of a male officer; and

(b) a child or children in the case of a woman officer who is a widow or divorcee or who has been granted a decree of judicial separation and who is the sole supporter of her family.

Sir, what the above amounts to is that male officers enjoy medical benefits which are automatically extended to his wife and children, whereas female officers are entitled to such benefits only for herself. Her husband and children are not accorded medical benefits, and they will have to pay. Only if a female officer is widowed or divorced are benefits extended to her children.

I find it unacceptable that this Government regards female officers as less equal than men, for in almost every way they are equal to men, in their work performance and productivity.

Sir, the pattern of the family unit has changed over the years, and today the male may not necessarily be the head of the household. Again, large and increasing numbers of females are employed in the civil service. In keeping with the Government's philosophy and practice of equal treatment for both sexes and equal rewards. I hope the Hon. Finance Minister will rectify the anachronistic instructions which dictate that female officers shall be less entitled to medical benefits in respect of her family than her male counterparts.

Sir, a year is a fairly long time to address one's mind to the matter and I trust the Finance Minister will have more to say on this subject this time.

4.15 p.m.

Mr Tan Soo Khoon (Alexandra): Mr Speaker, Sir, I would like to join the hon. Member for Anson and make some comments on the regulations governing the payment of the 13th month allowance to civil servants and employees in statutory boards. Mr Speaker, Sir, the Member for Anson has gone to great lengths to describe the different situations in which employees find themselves without being awarded the 13th month allowance. He has also taken great pains to describe the situations of families of employees who died in service and who faced the heartless officials of the Government who came calling on them asking for a refund of the 13th month allowance.

The regulations also do not favour those who retire from service before 31st December. To take an extreme case, an employee whose birthday falls on 30th December, will therefore reach his retirement age on 30th December. He automatically retires and forfeits his 13th month allowance. He loses it not through any fault of his own but simply because he had the misfortune to be born one day earlier. It also does not favour those who opt for early retirement from service if they tender their resignation before 31st December even though they continue serving up till 31st December. It does not seem fair that a person should be denied his 13th month allowance just because he is simply abiding by regulations governing notice of resignation even if he is still in service up till 31st December. The present regulations obviously leave much to be desired. The 13th month allowance is an incentive for those who are in service to continue being loyal to the Government but it is also an appreciation of service put in by employees during the past year.

The 13th month allowance is not a bonus such as that granted by commercial firms, but in essence it operates like one. It contains two elements; firstly, one of providing further incentives and, secondly, appreciating past services. It is the latter element that is important for appreciation for past services in itself contains a built-in incentive to an employee to strive harder in the coming year. But just because one chooses not to continue in service or has to opt out of service or because fate has played a cruel hand does not mean that his past services cannot be appreciated. The Government awards the 13th month payment to an employee who enters during the course of the year on a pro rata basis. Cannot this be applied also to those who leave the service in the year? It seems that the fairest solution, therefore, would be to award the 13th month allowance on a pro rata basis. As an example, an employee who retires at the end of September should be paid three-quarters of the 13th month allowance for that year.

It seems that the Government has made rules to suit its own pocket: "Pay when you have to pay; avoid payment when you can." No doubt it is a very wise policy to adopt by any government. But cannot we just show some appreciation for those who leave? Cannot we show some compassion for those who die? The Government seems to take the stand that, "Since you are no longer going to be with us,' we are conveniently going to forget what you have done in the past." The regulations were first made when the 13th month allowance was first introduced. Those who made these regulations did not foresee the situations that would arise as a result of rigid interpretation of the rules. But now that many actual cases have appeared that have led to many disputes, caused anguish to some, is it not time for us to make changes to these rules?

Mr Teong Eng Siong (Sembawang): (In Mandarin): Mr Speaker, the allocation for the Main estimates is about $809 million, for Development estimates $659 million, of which $105 million is for new projects. Jurong Town Corporation gets $245 million and Housing Scheme $8.5 million. At the same time $220 million is for loans to industrial and commercial enterprises. $220 million for commerce and industry seems to me to be too small. The other day the Minister for Law and the Environment said in this House that the Raffles Centre Shopping Complex development plan would require $500 million and yet the total loan to all our commercial and industrial enterprises is only $220 million. How can it be enough?

There is another point I would like to raise. The Government's loans are mainly for industry and commerce to the neglect of farming. This is not right. Since we are emphasising on the development of our economy in all fields, in other words, diversifying the economy, we should also look after the other sectors and also provide loans to the farming industry including pig and chicken rearing, orchid growing, tropical fish breeding and so on. This will help them to generate more income and also enable them to export their produce abroad to gain large sums of foreign exchange. Therefore there should not be any discrimination by the Government.

Here, I would like to raise a few questions to the Minister. Firstly, the Minister for Finance has said in his Budget Speech that our economic growth was 7% last year and that our economic weather is good, our ship of state is in good shape and the command should be "steady as she goes". This is a stout slogan meaning that in the coming year we will be having a higher economic growth. I would like to ask the Minister what is the expectation or the percentage growth for next year. He has said that it is about 6-8%. This seems to be going backwards. So I would like to ask him on what basis has he made this calculation of 6-8% growth. Is it due to increased foreign investments here or greater expansion of our commerce and industries?

Secondly, in his Budget it is stated that last year private building construction had decreased by 3%. This is a decrease for the third year. In view of this, I would like to ask the Minister what measures has he got to help the private building construction industry. If this sector can recover, it will certainly be able to contribute much to our economy.

Thirdly, the Minister has also pointed out in his Budget Speech that securing foreign investments is still a heavy task for the Government to tackle. I would like to ask him what plans he has to overcome any such difficulties, how to induce foreign investments and what kind of incentives or tax and other concessions is he going to give.

Fourthly, the Minister has said that there is a shortfall of about $1,500 million in the Budget. This will have to be financed by virement from the Development Fund and borrowing or the raising of bonds. This is a very judicious plan because in the past the previous two tax-free public bonds had been fully subscribed. If the Minister could plan well for development funds, I am sure it will be welcome and successful. The recent $40 million bond issue will certainly be successfully raised. In view of all these reasons we need have no fear of getting enough development funds for various projects. I would therefore like to ask the Minister whether he would assure this House that in the coming two or three years he will not levy any more taxes on road tax, property tax, hawker licences, PUB bills, radio and TV licences, commercial or other taxes, licences or charges so as to enable our people to help in our economic growth in a more peaceful and undisturbed environment.

Fifthly last year, there was a trade deficit amounting to $6,000 million, a surprising sum. What remedy does he have to reduce our trade deficit? When winding up his speech on the 14th of this month, the Minister said that he would consider setting up a Trade Development Council to further promote external trade. Very good, I hope practical action will be taken, not just consideration.

Lastly, Singapore, the Philippines and Thailand have signed a 10% tariff concession on mutual goods for export within these three countries. What are the reactions of other ASEAN countries? Has Singapore consulted other ASEAN countries on this matter?

The Minister for Finance (Mr Hon Sui Sen): Mr Speaker, Sir, there are quite a number of questions which I have to answer. The first one is from the Member for Anson. He spoke about the Post Office Savings Bank and the Giro system, and asked whether it could not be used for the purpose of a central collection system. The Management Services Department has been studying for some time the setting up of a central collection agency with collection points throughout the island to collect fees and rates payable to Government and statutory boards. While the concept of multi-purpose centres for the collection of bills has been found to be feasible, the actual physical setup has not been determined and several possibilities are being explored. One of these, of course, is the use of the POSB which has branches throughout the island. However, the POSB Giro system, despite the advantages that it has, does not appear to be sufficiently popular. For example, only about 3% of POSB account holders are paying their bills through the POSB Giro system.

Next, he asked about tourism and what SIA was doing to encourage tourists to fly by SIA, and how our national line was progressing, and how it was competing with other airlines. The tourist industry, of course, has been very buoyant. We hope to register an increase of 15% to 20% per year in tourist arrivals this year. We do not think too high a figure would be very desirable because there is already a danger of a drop in the standard of courtesy in our hotels, restaurants, shopping and other service establishments. But SIA is continuing with its efforts to promote tourism. It has now, firstly, a well-balanced network of services serving 27 cities in 22 foreign countries. It is constantly striving to expand this network.

4.30 pm,

Secondly, SIA spends very considerable sums in advertising and promotion. During the year ending 31st March it spent $18 million overseas,

Thirdly, SIA has invited a considerable number of travel editors and travel agents to Singapore to see for themselves the attractions.

Fourthly, Singapore has developed a package of holiday programmes which are targetted for its main tourist originating ideas.

Finally, SIA has spearheaded the establishment of attractive excursion fares in its main tourist-generating areas overseas.

The sum total of SIA's efforts is restricted in the number of passengers it carries to Singapore. In the calendar year 1976, SIA carried 541,000 passengers, excluding returning residents and West Malaysians into Singapore, comprising 43% of total arrivals.

The Member asked about SIA's progress and competitiveness with other airlines. Given equal opportunities, SIA can hold its own with the world's airlines, Unfortunately, it is not always allowed to spread its wings. A case in point is the series of traffic rights discussions with the USA. After five rounds of negotiations starting as far back as 1974 there has been absolutely no progress. At the last round of talks, the US delegation made a demand that SIA should obtain rights for a US carrier from the Indonesian and Filippino governments. This is, of course, absolutely absurd and raises serious doubts as to whether the US delegation was sincere in its efforts to reach agreement. A US airline has been operating flights to Singapore for the last 40 years but SIA is still denied the opportunity to operate even one cargo service a week to the West Coast of the USA. However. I suppose we must be patient and persistent, and we believe that the American people who are fair minded will allow SIA eventually to show its paces across the Pacific.

The Member for Anson also asked about our trade with Western countries. Trade with the US. Canada, the EEC and the remaining countries in EFTA has expanded from $4.2 billion in 1971 to $11.4 billion in 1976, an increase of 160%. During this period, our exports grew more than 3 1/2 times from $1.5 billion in 1971 to $5.5 billion in 1976. Our domestic exports to these markets have fared even better as they have increased by about 5 1/2 times from $610 million to $3.4 billion over the period 1971 to 1976. Our export performance is due partly to the preferential access to the markets of the US and the EEC we enjoy under their GSP schemes. It is also the result of a joint effort by Government and the private sector to increase the range and sophistication of our products. However, we have our share of trade problems with the Western countries. With high levels of unemployment. Western governments are subjected to domestic pressures for greater protectionism. About 40% of our total exports of textiles and garments are subject to import quotas imposed by the Western countries. Our more competitive electronic exports have also triggered protests from some countries as we attempt to upgrade and diversify. Therefore, while we have performed satisfactorily in these markets, we will remain alert and intensify our export promotion efforts.

Sir, I think the main query that I have to answer here is the payment of the 13th month allowance. I have already answered quite a number of supplementary questions during Question Time. But I notice that it has not satisfied Members. However. I do not think I can do better than to repeat again. The nature of the non-pensionable allowance is a 13th month salary supplement payable to people who are in service on the 31st December. It is no use suggesting that this annual allowance should be of a different nature and that it should be a token of appreciation to officers who have already done some service but are not in service on 31st December. It was not so conceived and there is no way in which I can change the nature of this allowance to make it a matter of compassionate allowance. The difference is like the difference between a cat and a dog. It is no use suggesting that the cat should be a dog and should be friendly and compassionate. The fact is that it was born a cat, and the non-pensionable annual allowance likewise, by its very nature, is a payment made only to serving officers on 31st December and not necessarily to officers who have done good service and should perhaps be considered for a certain consideration by Government, whether in the form of an appreciation or by way of ex gratia payment.

My Ministry would have no objection to any statutory body exercising a discretion in special circumstances of extreme hardship to waive recovery. Let us not mix the two matters. One is a matter of ex gratia payment, and the other is a matter of entitlement to a non-pensionable annual allowance.

I think there was one other question I have to answer on the Civil Service. The Member for Anson has some doubts whether there is fairness and impartiality in the selection of persons who are promoted. I think we ensure such fairness and impartiality by getting officers who are carefully selected to serve on promotion panels. Promoting authorities are concerned, I think, only with the attributes of candidates. These attributes can be grouped under three factors - qualification, merit and experience. In the nature of things, however, in every promotion exercise there is bound to be a number of unsuccessful candidates who become dissatisfied with the conduct, and outcome of the exercise.

I now come to the Member for Kim Seng who asked whether husbands of married civil servants could be eligible for consideration under the medical benefit scheme of the Government. While I can appreciate the arguments which he has provided, we are still living in an age where in any divorce case, the woman is never asked to pay alimony to the husband, and I think it is generally considered that husbands are capable of taking care of themselves. In the same way, the regulation has been framed on that assumption but in the unlikely event that a woman officer has a husband who is completely dependent upon her. I am prepared to consider the case for medical benefit as a special one.

4.45 p.m.

The Member for Sembawang raised a number of questions. One was on the real growth likely for 1977. I have gone into this in some detail and there is a good chance of our achieving a real growth of 6 to 8% this year.

He asked whether there was any likely difficulty due to the lack of investments, and what further steps were being taken to attract such investments. We have tried to ensure that domestically the conditions are conducive to attracting new investments. We offer an attractive tax package and have always given priority to providing adequate industrial facilities and services.

Efforts have also been made to upgrade skills in our labour force to meet the requirements of industry. A sound and orderly system of wage increases linked to productivity has also helped us to remain competitive and, externally, key personnel have been deployed overseas to step up the promotion efforts.

We also give more assistance from the Capital Assistance and Small Industries Finance Schemes. I know that up to date the amounts given have been dismal, but that is because we have started with these two schemes only over the last year or so.

The Member also asked for an assurance that no levy of taxes be raised for the rest of this year. I have already answered that question - that a Minister for Finance never gives such assurances.

He also asked about the trade figures and spoke of our trade deficit of $6 billion. With a developing economy and with no natural resources like ours, a trade deficit is inevitable. We require large imports of capital goods and equipment to build up our productive capacity and we are dependent on external sources for the bulk of our food supply and raw material inputs for our industry. We expect to continue with this trade deficit as we go into more sophisticated servicing industries. Industries like shiprepairing which require heavy capital equipment add to our trade import bill, but the services they render are not shown in the trade account as the product of these industries is registered only in the services account and not in the export account.

We have, however, as an objective of our trade policy, the reduction of the trade deficit. Over the years we have diversified into new products and new markets. We have, for example, gone into production of television tubes and chassis and quartz crystals requiring high levels of technology. Our exports to West Asia have also developed by 12 times over the last six years. Our Trade Investment and Diplomatic Offices will be strengthened in key centres. We will also set up permanent exhibition centres in West Asia. As Members are aware, we are not considering the establishment of a Trade Development Council.

The Member also spoke about the Philippines and Thailand and across-the-board reduction of 10% of existing tariffs. Our bilateral agreement with these two countries is a concrete step forward in cementing closer economic ties and we have briefed Indonesia and Malaysia on these arrangements. Consideration is being given now to the implementation of bilateral tariff reductions under the ASEAN Agreement.

I think I have answered all the questions raised.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, although I am not satisfied with the Minister's reply because all the newspapers, the Straits Times and the Nanyang Siang Pau, have put up a report criticising the 13th month allowance and that the Government did not consider them. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: I propose to take the Suspension now.

Thereupon Mr Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Speaker: Order. I suspend the Sitting and shall take the Chair again at 5.25 p.m.

Sitting accordingly suspended at 4.52 p.m. until 5.25 p.m. Sitting resumed at 5.25 p.m.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Debate in Committee of Supply resumed.

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Head X (cont.) -

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee (Toa Payoh): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BBA 1101* (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy).

Sir, we are informed that newly appointed Division I officers are required to attend induction courses conducted by the Civil Service Staff Development Institute. Participants in these courses are assigned to attend MP's meet-the-people sessions in order to have a better understanding of the socio-economic problems that exist in Singapore. Through such assignments it is hoped that our top civil servants will be able to provide a more courteous and effective service to the public. From time to time our civil servants are subjected to criticisms on the manner in which they interpret and discharge Government policies. I must say that such courses are necessary if the Government is to implement its policies successfully.

The point I wish to make is whether there is any follow-up action on the part of the CSSDI or whether any assessment is made on the participants to ensure that such useful experiences gained are put to effective use. Do these civil servants impart the knowledge gained to their subordinates? As we are aware, not all Division I civil servants have direct or personal contacts with members of the public in the course of their duties. In many cases such contacts are normally delegated to their subordinates. In view of this, would it not be desirable for the Minister for Finance to provide such experience to civil servants in other divisions who are constantly in contact with members of the public in the course of their duties? There may be other older Division I officers who may not have the benefit of attending such courses.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, what has the Civil Service Staff Development Institute, which is in Pasir Panjang, done so far? How far has this Institute been successful in helping our civil service? What sort of courses are conducted at this Institute? Could the Minister give some facts and figures about this Institute?

There seems to be a certain amount of frustration building up in the civil service. Quite often some officers with very little experience are promoted to posts which they are not capable of holding simply because they possess the paper qualifications but not the experience. Has any attention been paid to the level of incompetence of an officer?

5.30 p.m.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I welcome this opportunity to comment on the courses that Government officers attend at the CSSDI. The Administrative Officers, Medical Officers, Engineers. Legal Officers, Inland Revenue Officers and other Division I officers who are recruited fresh from the University attend a two-week induction course at the CSSDI within six months of joining the civil service. The object of the course is to make these officers aware of their role and responsibilities as civil servants, to give them an understanding of Government policies and the environment in which the Government operates. They are required, as part of the course, to attend meet-the-people sessions conducted by MPs.

At the end of the course, each participant is asked to comment on the various elements in the course. Their comments on the meet-the-people sessions have invariably been favourable. They found the sessions relevant and valuable to their work. In particular, the sessions have given them a much clearer idea of the various problems confronting our citizens and the effects of various administrative acts on the people. The participants would be expected in the course of their work to pass on to their colleagues the benefits of the training which they receive. The Member for Anson has also asked questions about this.

As regards the objectives of the Civil Service Staff Development Institute, these are to enhance the effectiveness of the public sector by providing in-service training courses in management and supervision, Government relations, current affairs and English language. The following figures on course attendance in 1975 and 1976 give an indication of the Institute's activities:- Attendance at Total No. of Year Institute's Courses training hours Div. I Divs II & III 1975 782 1,588 4,108 1976 1,777 1,528 6,722

The Institute does undertake course evaluations and follow-ups on the results of these evaluations to find out whether the participants have benefited from the courses, and to improve and modify them in the light of its findings. For example, participants of courses on management do subsequently carry out organisation and system improvements in their respective departments. In the English courses, pre-course and post-course test results show that participants' language ability has improved. The Institute's courses also enable civil servants from various ministries and statutory boards to meet and discuss common problems. This has helped in improving communication and coordination in the service.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, in view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Goh Chok Tong (Marine Parade): Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 1101*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Phey Yew Kok).

Sir, Members of the House are well aware of the political, economic and social consequences of the sharp increase in the price of oil since 1972, and the likelihood of further increases. I shall, therefore, not touch on this aspect, but instead on how we could alleviate the effect of high costs of energy in the interest of economic development. Before I do that, Sir, let me briefly explain why I am taking up this subject under the subhead "Permanent Staff". Development Division, under Head X, Ministry of Finance.

Some months ago, it was reported in the newspapers that the Ministry of National Development was studying the design and construction of buildings with a view to cutting down unnecessary heat absorption from the sun so that expenditure on air-conditioning, for example, could be reduced. The Public Utilities Board has also revised its electricity consumption tariff to penalise the high consumers so as to cut down the use of energy. More recently, some hon. Members of the House have suggested that the Ministry of Science and Technology undertake research into the capture and use of solar energy, as we have plenty of it. All these actions and suggestions are sound, but the point I wish to make is that there is no nationally coordinated effort to work out a long-range energy strategy or programme to mitigate the effect of the high price of oil. I think the Development Division of the Ministry of Finance is the best place to work out such a national programme, it being responsible for the economic development of the country. I would like to know from the Hon. Minister for Finance whether such a programme has been or is being worked out; if not, whether he would consider initiating such a programme.

There are two main aspects to a long range energy programme for a country: (1) developing new sources or alternative forms of energy, and (2) conserving the use of energy. Given a small economy and a smaller geographical area, the first aspect is of less relevance to us. We have no oil, shale oil or coal reserves. True, we have plenty of sunlight, but I doubt whether we have the energy and resources to undertake primary research into this area of energy resource. Take the case of Japan, for example. The financial commitment of a MITI (Ministry of International Trade and Industry) sponsored "Sunshine Project" inaugurated in July 1974 envisaged a minimum expenditure in constant prices of Yen 4,260 billion (or about S$37 billion) on research and development work for the period 1974 to the year 2000. (The main areas of research under the "Sunshine Project" are solar energy, geothermal energy, coal gasification and liquefaction, and hydrogen.) I doubt if we can afford that kind of expenditure on research into new forms of energy. Nor is it necessary. Rather, we should concentrate on secondary research to keep abreast of current scientific and commercial development in the use of new sources or alternative forms of energy.

The second aspect of a long range energy strategy, that of energy conservation, is what we should concentrate on. We could call it a Long Range Energy Conservation Programme. It is long range because, firstly, any conservation programme has a long lead time, and secondly, it must be followed through so that it becomes a way of life.

The Long Range Energy Conservation Programme could have the following objectives:-

(1) To bring about a change in political and electoral attitudes regarding the value and use of energy;

(2) To work with industry to increase the efficiency in the use of energy, i.e, reduce energy input per unit of output; and

(3) To exact greater effort to reduce retained oil imports.

The Conservation Programme could include the following elements:-

(1) Differential pricing to discourage the excessive use of energy;

(2) Selective mandatory energy-saving measures such as the maximum amount of lighting for advertisements, or minimum insulation standards for air-conditioned buildings;

(3) Building codes aimed at energy conservation;

(4) Financial incentives for investment by industries in energy-saving equipment; and

(5) Financial or fiscal incentives to promote the setting up of skilled, labour-intensive industries requiring relatively smaller energy input per unit of output.

Sir, I am not an expert on energy conservation and hence could only touch sketchily on some points which I think require further attention by specialists. I hope the Development Division will formulate such a national programme for energy conservation. I am sure they have the energy.

Mr Phey Yew Kok (Boon Teck): Sir, the recent Government's scheme of financial assistance to the shipbuilding industry to enable Singapore shipbuilders to compete in the international market is very commend able. But I understand that the scheme has been fouled up by too much bureaucratic red-tape.

The success of the scheme is a matter of great concern to me. Not that I seek to be a spokesman for the shipbuilding managements, but I view the scheme as an aid for maintaining job opportunities. The two unions I am associated with, SILO and PIEU, have a few thousand members who are employees of the shipbuilding industry. Their livelihood is being threatened through the inability of our shipbuilding industry to compete on equal terms with their foreign competitors. The primary cause of such inability is the difficulty, or the red-tape, local shipbuilders have to go through to secure credit.

It is the normal practice for a local firm, which has successfully bid a contract to build a ship, to allow the buyer to pay only 30% of the total cost of the ship as a down-payment. The local firm then applies to the Development Bank of Singapore (DBS) for a loan equivalent to 70% of the total cost to enable the firm to build the ship.

This is when the troubles arise. The DBS requires the prospective buyer to furnish in duplicate or triplicate his personal particulars, some of which the buyer considers impertinent or irrelevant to the question of his credit-worthiness. Fair enough, the buyer must answer personal questions to determine his financial status. But the fact is that other countries, who are our competitors are more lenient towards their buyers and have done away with such questions. It is, therefore, not surprising that some buyers react hostilely and refuse to answer all these impertinent questions, since they can have the ship built elsewhere on not less favourable terms of credit and without the need to answer all these impertinent questions. I was told that some local firms had to give up contracts to build ships because of these impertinent questions.

Another aspect of the red-tape problem is that concerning the basis on which the credit facilities are made available only for the contruction of self-propelled ocean-going ships of more than 5,000 deadweight tonnes. Our members are not only employed in building ocean-going ships but also in building oil rigs and dredgers. The fact that Singapore is one of the biggest oil rig builders seems to be a matter of no consequence to the Finance Ministry or the DBS. Apparently, no credit facilities can be given to builders of oil rigs and dredgers. A Director of a company told our union leaders that he lost a $36 million contract because the DBS refused to give credit facilities for the building of dredgers. In this instance, the firm had secured 100% credit from EXIM Bank of Japan for the machinery. What the builder needed was credit for labour cost and materials which would have been in the region of $3 or $4 million. DBS rejected the application because the dredgers had no propellers. And, consequently, more than 200 employees lost their jobs. These 200-odd employees would not have joined the rank of the unemployed if the DBS had not been so rigid in its adherence to its self-imposed rules for the granting of credit facilities. Moreover. such rules do not seem to have taken into account the character of Singapore's shipbuilding industry.

5.45 p.m.

Another aspect of the red-tape problem is that concerning the guarantee the DBS wants from shipbuilders. The guarantee is to the effect that the shipbuilder guarantees repayment of the loan during the seven-year period. Shipbuilders accept the orders placed with them in good faith. Buyers are required to make a downpayment equivalent to 30% of the total cost of their orders. But it will take one or two years to fulfil their orders. In the meantime, due to unforeseen circumstances or international events beyond their control, buyers may be unable or unwilling to take delivery or, after taking delivery, the buyers may go bankrupt before repaying the loan. Shipbuilders, therefore, cannot guarantee that the buyers will take delivery of the ships they have ordered or repay the loan fully. In such circumstances, the local shipbuilder is unable to secure sufficient shipbuilding orders, not because he cannot win such orders in open competition, but because he cannot obtain the necessary credit facilities.

I expect the Minister for Finance's retort to be the usual platitude - that the red-tape is necessary if financial institutions are to be viable. But what I am unhappy about is, not that the Finance Ministry or the DBS do not throw caution to the winds and lend indiscriminately, but that they are not more imaginative and realistic in giving credit facilities to shipbuilders. Japanese shipbuilders' success can in a way be attributed to the credit facilities provided by EXIM Bank of Japan. Probably the Ministry of Finance can have another look at the Japanese method when it lays down policies for DBS to adhere.

The tragedy is that Singapore can ill-afford to lose all shipbuilding orders, which local shipbuilders are prevented from accepting because of the red-tape governing credit facilities.

Mr Ivan Baptist (Potong Pasir): Mr Speaker, Sir, what steps are being taken by the Economic Development Board to ensure the smooth and effective transfer of technology to our Singapore workers? Our industrialisation programme is more than 10 years old and to-date the technology transfer is still far below that expected. What are the problems preventing a faster and more effective transfer of technology? Are we facing a selfish attitude of those that possess higher technology and grudge passing this on to our workers? This transfer of technology is without a doubt essential for our country and its workers.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Mr Speaker, Sir, first of all, I want to take the question raised by the Member for Marine Parade on the necessity for energy research and conservation of energy supplies. I agree with the Member for Marine Parade that, as far as research is concerned, the size of our economy is such that we cannot afford to spend large sums of money on research programmes which are already being done by countries like Japan, the United States of America and other developed countries. In any case, the research in nuclear power and in solar power must be on a long-term basis. As far as Singapore is concerned, it is likely that we shall have to rely upon conventional sources of energy supplies, such as oil and coal. Whilst it is possible that we can buy nuclear power. I think the size of our country is such that there is really no place where we could safely put a nuclear power station and, unless we have absolutely no other alternative, we will have to give up the consideration of nuclear power station as a solution to our energy problems.

As far as conservation is concerned. I think we can do something. In fact, when the sudden and steep increase in crude oil prices began in October 1973 we had a national "Save energy" campaign. This was conducted on a voluntary basis without any element of compulsion. A committee chaired by the Director of Trade was set up. The result was initially encouraging. The rate of increase of energy consumption fell to 4% the following year, that is, 1974, and 7% in 1975. As a result of economic recovery last year, the rate of increase rose to 10% but still well below the average rate of increase of 20% in energy consumption in the years before the oil crisis. In December 1973 we had, what is called, the Restrictions on the Supply, Distribution and Use of Petroleum and Electricity Act, which was passed, empowering the Government to restrict energy usage. This Act is still in force. Since then we have continued to encourage the conservation of energy through various campaigns.

As the Member for Marine Parade has suggested, amendments to existing regulations to incorporate energy conservation requirements in building design would also help to cut down energy wastage so that now a sufficiently close and effective vigilance on energy usage can be coordinated and sustained through the work of the Department of Trade and the Public Utilities Board. But the problem is admittedly a very complex one requiring a sense of economy on the part of all energy users, whether they be Government ministries, industries, businesses, motorists or individual households. I think our immediate requirements are ensured, however, by the Agreement which we signed recently for preferential trading arrangements in ASEAN which, under one of its provisions, gives us preference to the supplies of energy from our neighbours. Because of this particular agreement, I think there should be less worry on our part on the supplies necessary for Singapore.

I now come to the Member for Boon Teck. He has raised the question of Government's scheme for the credit facilities to the shipbuilding industry. He has suggested that I would answer him with the usual platitudes. I hope I do not, although I could say that even if I did so in the terms in which he suggested that I would do. I would only be suggesting normal banking prudence. The Member has himself in his speech spoken of the difficulties shipbuilders face, and I quote:

`Due to unforeseen circumstances or international events beyond their control, buyers may be unable or unwilling to take delivery or, after taking delivery, the buyers may go bankrupt before repaying the loan.'

The DBS and other banks also face the same difficulties when they have to return the money which the Government may have advanced them so that some caution from them is surely reasonable.

The existing ship financing scheme of the banks, and of the Development Bank of Singapore particularly, is modelled on the Japanese EXIM bank credit scheme which in turn is based on guidelines laid down by the OECD. The scheme was started in 1971 for vessels above 5,000 deadweight tonnes and subsequently extended to cover also vessels of below 5,000 deadweight tonnes. Although it is not Government's policy to subsidise the local shipbuilding industry. Government is prepared to assist the industry wherever appropriate to enable them to compete effectively with other countries. At the same time, I ought to say here that we do not have the same resources that Japan or the developed Western countries have for assistance to their shipbuilding industry.

As to the alleged bureaucratic red-tape, perhaps the following clarification should be made. The disclosure of personal particulars of potential buyers is an accepted international practice. Such information is required to assess the debt servicing activity of the borrower. I would be very happy to learn from the Member for Boon Teck what particular countries give credit without even inquiring into the particulars of the borrower. As in the OECD schemes, credit facilities under the Singapore scheme are not extended to oil rigs, as the amount involved is fairly large and the credit risks are different from ship financing. I think the financing of oil rigs is a matter for syndication by our merchant banks and other banks in our financial centre activities. Dredgers are also excluded as they are not ships but are specialised forms of marine and earth excavating equipment. However. I think such financing can be considered on a case by case basis provided borrowers can comply with appropriate terms of financing.

[Mr Deputy Speaker in the Chair]

6.00 p.m.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: I think the case of the dredger referred to by the Member was actually considered on the merits of the proposal, but the financing fell through as insufficient information was disclosed and the Bank which was to provide the guarantee had already exceeded its credit lines from the DBS.

Under the Japanese EXIM Bank credit scheme, credit facilities are generally extended to builders instead of to buyers directly. In our case, direct lending to buyers are considered on a case by case basis. The interest rates of 8% to 8.5% per annum under the DBS scheme are more attractive compared to other existing bank going rates of 8.75% to 9% per annum. Furthermore, the Japanese scheme is only available for vessels above 10,000 deadweight tonnes. Our scheme is, therefore, in fact more liberal compared to the Japanese one in quite a few areas. I would like to say, however, that the Member's concern for the shipbuilding industry is shared by the Government and that we will do what we can to alleviate any distress which the shipbuilding industry is facing at the moment.

The last question I have to consider is that raised by the Member for Potong Pasir as to what is being done in regard to the transfer of technology to Singapore. In fact, I believe that the transfer of technology has been taking place all this while, for the whole period of industrialisation, and that we have had some success from such transfers through the activities not only of our own industrialists but also those of the many foreign industrial firms we attract here. The advantage of the multi-national companies is that, we hope, they bring their most advanced technology from the West and that in the process of establishing themselves here, the technology rubs off on our local population. I do not know exactly how we can speed up this transfer, There are a number of other methods we are able to pursue. One of these is that we should perhaps acquire some of the industries in the US and other advanced technological centres and try and transfer them to firms in Singapore. I think some of our local industries are already doing this, and I hope that in the coming years there will be more and more of them doing the same, especially in the products which require not too much capital but a lot of entrepreneurial, scientific and technical ability from the entrepreneurial personnel such as in electronics.

Mr Phey Yew Kok: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, one point of clarification from the Minister for Finance. I agree with the Minister that a prudent banker should ensure that a loan must not be granted without careful consideration and investigation. But I have been told that questions on the buyer's personal history and the number of wives he has have to be answered. What have these questions got to do with a person buying a ship? What I am trying to point out here is this. Financing for the building of an oil rig or a ship is not successful because the DBS rejects the application as some of the impertinent questions have not been answered. I was told that the EXIM Bank of Japan have dropped these impertinent questions. Would it not be easier to grant a loan or credit facility to the shipbuilder in Singapore instead of to the buyer, so that a contract to build the ship could be entered into?

Mr Hon Sui Son: Sir, I am really surprised that there should be any questions raised on the number of wives or female alliances that any prospective borrower has. I do not think that is particularly true. I think the banks are only interested in those particulars which relate to his financial operations. It may be that if he has a very, very extravagant wife or wives, this may have some bearing upon his financial standing. But I think in the general instance this is certainly unnecessary. The Member has said that these questions have been withdrawn. So maybe this is only a rumour. If these questions are still in the questionnaire, then they can be brought forth and we will examine them very closely.

Mr Phey Yew Kok: Sir, the EXIM Bank of Japan has withdrawn these impertinent questions. But the DBS has not withdrawn them.

Mr Hon Sui Son: I certainly will ask my Revenue Division and the Development Bank of Singapore that operates the scheme on behalf of the Government to look into this particular matter. As I say, I would be very surprised if that should be so and I can assure the Member - and I am sure the Member for Kallang will also be happy to provide the same assurance - that if such questions are still in the questionnaire, then we will withdraw them as rapidly as possible.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, one of the methods to ensure a faster transfer of technology would be to prepare our workers adequately for this transfer. I am just wondering whether such steps are being taken, and if so what are these steps?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, I am not quite sure in what way we can prepare workers for industries that have not yet come. We do have Government industry training centres which train people in tool making and so on and I assume that the very general training would fit them not only for particular industries but also for other industries which have related technology. But the first thing really is to have our engineers trained in the particular industries. And, as I say, one of the ways is, first, to acquire a company in high technology industry in the developed countries, and then send our people to this company for training. And, in fact, we should still keep that company in existence for such training purposes and exchange of information with other companies in the same technological field, and then bring back the engineers and maybe some of the trainees to start similar operations in Singapore.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, I would just like to take this opportunity to refer to the statement made by the Minister earlier on. The Minister mentioned about syndication in financing of large-scale shipbuilding. I am just wondering to what extent the Government is encouraging this particular approach of financing?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the size of the operations in financing oil rigs, for example, would be of such a degree that the Government itself would not be able to assist very much. If we have to provide the resources from which the banking sector, such as the DBS, were to lend to oil rig builders and so on, the amounts would be so considerable that the Government would have to find greater sources of finance. And I am already having difficulty in this House in trying to convince Members that there is a need for broadening the base of taxation or in increasing the taxes. So I think on this point, perhaps the financial centre should try and do what it can to finance these rather specialised operations. I believe there are merchant banks that specialise in ship and oil rig financing and I think we must leave this mostly to them. The Government, of course, is very happy to provide the basis for the financial centre operations. We will give as many licences as are required for anyone wishing to enter into this business. But that is all that we can do. Maybe through the DBS we can take some part in the syndication, but even in that, there is a limit to what we can do.

Mr Hwang Soo Jin: Sir, can I just add a bit more? Taxation is totally irrelevant to the question of syndication for the financing of shipbuilding. On the question of syndication, someone should come forward to provide the positive lead. In this case, may I suggest that the hon. Member for Kallang through the DBS, should come forward and provide the lead which is sadly needed.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, may I say that some of these operations involve risks and that, if these risks turn out to be unacceptable and result in losses, the Government will have to finance these losses from its Consolidated Fund or Development Fund or from some other fund which it replenishes through taxes, The question of income tax or other taxes is not totally irrelevant.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, the shipping company which I work for has built ships locally. We have also borrowed money from the DBS, and I am happy to confirm that I have not been asked any impertinent questions.

Sir, in view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr S. Dhanabalan: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DAA 1101.

Sir, I hesitate to bring up this point because the Minister has just mentioned that he is having difficulty in convincing the House on the need to raise more taxes. But I would like to ask the Hon. Minister for Finance whether he would consider allowing certain expenses incurred by residents in condominiums as tax deductible expenses.

It is Government policy that any housing development covering an area of more than two acres should be developed as a condominium. This means, among other things, that all the common services within the estate have to be paid for directly by the owners or residents of the estate. The residents pay a monthly service charge to cover common services such as provision and maintenance of lifts, common staircases, corridors, swimming pools, tennis or squash courts, etc., all of which should properly be paid for by the residents. But the residents also have to meet the cost of providing other services such as maintenance of roads and drains, provision of street lighting. maintenance of grass verges and open areas. These latter services are provided by the Government or related bodies in every other part of Singapore at taxpayers' expense except in the condominiums. The residents in the condominiums, in addition to paying their taxes like everyone else, have also to foot the bills for these services. The cost of these services can amount to as much as $100 per month per household. Would the Minister for Finance consider allowing these expenses to be tax deductible, similar to that allowed for expenses incurred for the maintenance of gardens?

6.15 p.m.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, at the moment I cannot see any good reason why the expenses incurred in the upkeep of private roads and other amenities meant for the exclusive use of residents of condominium estates should be deductible. Even residents of Housing and Development Board estates have to pay conservancy charges for upkeep and maintenance of the estates, and the conservancy charges they pay are not tax deductible. In old housing estates like Serangoon Gardens, they do not pay conservancy charges for roads which are public roads where members of the public have right of passage. In a condominium, I do not think there is a right of passage for the public. Nevertheless if the Member can make out a better case, we will be prepared to give consideration as we have given consideration to all the suggestions of Members here.

Mr Dhanabalan: Sir, the roads in some of the condominiums are really no different from the roads in some estates like Serangoon Garden Estate. Watten Estate or Hill Crest Estate. The conservancy charges paid by the HDB cover the types of services which, as I said, should be properly paid for by residents. There are other services which in most cases are paid for by Government. In the case of a condominium, there is no provision, at present, to even allow the normal $300 tax-deductible expenditure for maintenance of garden that is allowed in other housing estates. But since the Minister is prepared to consider when the details are put to him. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DEC 1101*. (* The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Teong Eng Siong).

On 2nd September, 1970 [Hansard, Vol. 30, cols. 183-4] when I brought up the question of allowing contributors of private provident fund to utilise their deposits to purchase flats under the HDB Home Ownership scheme, the then Minister of State for Finance in his reply stated that he was "prepared to ask the Commissioner of Inland Revenue to consider sympathetically such amendments without affecting its approved status." Consequent upon that assurance, contributors of one particular private provident fund were allowed by the Comptroller of Income Tax to transfer part of their deposits to the Central Provident Fund for the purpose of purchasing HDB flats under the Home Ownership scheme. However, permission was withdrawn by the Comptroller of Income Tax on 4th June. 1975, without giving any apparent reasons. As an approved fund under the CPF, contributors need not make any contribution to the CPF owing to certain rules, the concurrence of the Comptroller of Income Tax must be obtained before any part of the credit balance can be transferred over to the CPF. May I ask the Minister whether he will consider reviewing this matter again.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, under this amendment I would like to raise three questions. On personal income tax relief the request has been rejected. There is no hope for more relief. So I would like to ask for some other reliefs. First, can the relief for maintaining parents and grandparents be increased? At the moment it is $750 per year. It is really a small amount of money averaging $62.50 per month. Now that prices are rising with inflation, $62.50 is not enough even for rental, much less to maintain an aged parent. I would like to ask the Minister to increase the relief for aged parents from $750 to $1,500 per parent per year. On average, it will amount to $125 per month instead of $62.50, so that one can better look after one's aged parents. This will be in keeping with the virtue of filial piety of the Eastern people and also in keeping with the principles of care for the aged as mentioned in the Presidential Address.

The second question is on relief for income tax on sports organisations. In its policy of promoting sports the Government has been giving income tax concessions to donors who donate to sports organisations. On the other hand the Income Tax Department is taxing such organisations on all donations. For example, the Singapore Amateur Swimming Association is one sports organisation which is promoting sports and has won many laurels abroad for Singapore. Therefore, it has the support of the people of Singapore and large sums of money have been donated to this sports association for the promotion of swimming. Yet the Government taxes the donations. Last year, the tax on' this Association amounted to some $20,000. This should not be so. It means that the concession generously promised by the Government is now taken back by the Government. With one hand the Government is giving this concession, but with the other hand it is taking it back. This shows a lack of sincerity in Government's intention to promote sports. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister whether he will consider exempting taxes on these sports organisations.

Thirdly, will the Minister waive income tax on civic organisations which offer scholarships and sponsor welfare funds, and give tax concessions to donors? These organisations have contributed much to Singapore's education, culture and in the social welfare fields. They are also helping the Government by awarding scholarships to produce many useful people to serve the country. In view of this, the Government should encourage these civic organisations and donors by relieving taxes on them particularly on scholarship donations.

Mr Hon Sui Son: As was stated in 1970, the Government is prepared to consider applications to amend approved private provident fund schemes to enable members to withdraw their contributions for purchase of HDB flats on terms similar to those of the CPF. I regret that there should have been difficulties in implementing this intention. The Department of Inland Revenue has now been requested to review all outstanding cases, and if the Member would let me know the particulars of this withdrawal which he said was 4th June, 1975, I will send the particulars on to them. To obviate any applications from being overlooked, perhaps the Member can request any particular interested fund to reapply for formal approval.

In regard to the Member for Sembawang's questions, the Member may recollect that when I first announced the relief to taxpayers for supporting parents or grandparents, the tax deduction was only $300 per dependant. After careful consideration I raised the relief by more than the 100% which he is now suggesting I should do. I raised it to $750 per dependant effective from the year of assessment 1975. I should point out that the tax inducement by itself will not reverse the trend on the breaking up of the extended family system in Singapore. Social planners should perhaps now try to find a solution to this problem. I am afraid I will not be able to consider raising the present relief of $750 to $1,500 per dependent parent or grandparent that he suggests.

He also asked that charitable or sports organisations be exempted from income tax. I would point out that charitable organisations generally are already tax exempt under Section 13(1)(g) of the Income Tax Act provided they spend 80% of their net income on approved charitable projects, in any given year of assessment. All donations to charitable organisations are deemed as income and would qualify for tax exemption if the 80% requirement is met.

6.30 p.m.

Sports organisations are distinct from charities and are more appropriately termed "clubs" for purposes of income tax. A club may qualify for tax exemption if more than 50% of its gross receipts are derived from entrance and subscription fees. Some of these sports organisations which are affiliated to the Singapore Sports Council or the Singapore National Olympic Council receive more than half of their income as tax exempt donations from their parent bodies and they may not meet the 50% requirement. They therefore do not qualify for tax exemption but they pay tax only on their net income after providing for all allowable deductions.

Finally, I think the Member asked about the position of scholarships on charitable contributions. As I have said, charities are exempted from income tax subject to certain conditions. It therefore does not matter if funds are expended on scholarships provided there is provision in the constitution or in the Articles and Memorandum of Understanding for awarding such scholarships. I must emphasise that the scholarship must have that element of public benefit, must be made available to all irrespective of race, creed or religion and should not merely be confined to the members or their families.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: In view of the Minister's favourable reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, I beg to move.

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DEE 1101.

Sir, the Hon. Minister in his reply to a Question for Oral Answer last week said that all HDB dwellings enjoy a concessionary rate of 23% property tax. This is not correct, Sir. In some dwellings in St. Michael's and Queenstown estates, the rate is still 36%. Could the Minister enlighten the House on this matter?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the Member is correct in saying that I was wrong when I said that the maximum was 23% for all HDB owner-occupied properties. The position is that in those areas which were at 23% before the rates were increased, the owner occupiers were allowed to retain their 23%. That was the maximum for them. But in areas which have been at 36%, like Stirling Road and St. Michael's Road, then there was no question of bringing this down. They were in an area which was rated at 36%. All the houses in that area were rated at 36%, so they were given the same rate. I think I misled the hon. Member. I was myself misled into thinking that that was the situation: that 23% was the maximum.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: Sir, may I make a further comment? The reduction in the property tax rate was brought about some years ago when I brought up this matter on the need to have a uniform rate of property tax for HDB properties. There were at that time other properties which attracted the rate of 36%, and all were subsequently brought down. As we are all aware, property tax is based on whether the property is in a rural, urban or certain divisions. This rate was brought down to 23% irrespective of where the Housing Board estates are but, unfortunately, I believe that there may be an oversight on the part of the Property Tax Department in missing out these two areas. I wonder whether the Minister would consider reviewing this position once again.

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir,I think the properties that he referred to were really housing units, i.e, flats, whereas these are houses, and houses are treated differently.

Mr Cheong Yuen Chee: In view of the Minister's reply, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn,

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 8102.

Sir, I notice that the provision for "New Projects and Under Estimation" has been increased by more than 10 times from $10 million in FY 76 to $105 million in FY 77. The Memorandum on the Main and Development Estimates does not give us any clue as to what the new projects are and we must, therefore, ask the Minister for Finance to give us a breakdown of the $105 million into provision for new projects and provision for under-estimation for on-going projects.

Regarding under-estimation for project cost, I would like to ask a few more questions:-

(1) When funds for projects are under-estimated, is there a re-evaluation of the cost-benefits of the projects before additional funds are disbursed?

(2) Are the reasons for the underestimation thoroughly investigated for each and every case of significant underestimation?

(3) In the business world, good estimates are critical to profits. When companies or firms tender for a contract, they must stand by their tendered price. Thus, whether they end up with a profit or loss depends on whether they have correctly estimated their own costs in the first place. Part of the problem in the procedure of allocating Government development funds is that Ministries and departments do not have to produce balance sheets and profit-and-loss statements. Thus, under-estimation, which in business normally results in a loss, is not penalised. Can a system be worked out to monitor the performance of departments in estimating the costs of their projects with a view to improving the quality of such estimates?

(4) Where departments frequently underestimate, is any attempt made to investigate and understand the attitude of the people making the estimates with a view to establishing a better rapport? In a company. the financial controller or chief executive must understand the ability and mental make-up of his staff, and where cases of non-achievement are known, as in the case of a bad estimate, we must search for clues behind the failure to perform. The investigation into the attitude of his managers is often a first task. I believe the human factor should similarly be given due weight in the public service.

Sir, I want to make it clear that I am not criticising the Budget Division of the Ministry of Finance or the user departments concerned for poor performance in fund allocation - not in this debate anyway as I do not have actual examples of callous under-estimation. I am just being academic. To me, under-estimation is as much a flaw as poor implementation. It suggests a certain weakness in control. It is a management problem and it would lead to losses in the business sense. If, for example, we could prevent a loss of $26 million through better estimation and control, we have an additional argument for income tax reliefs to be increased!

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, the provision in subhead BAA 8102 has been increased because of a change in the procedure for submission of proposals for new development projects. Under the previous procedure, proposals for new development projects had to be submitted in time for consideration for the annual Estimates. Owing to the great number of proposals that were submitted for consideration and the tight schedule that had to be met to ensure that the annual Estimates were presented to Parliament in time, inevitably only a cursory assessment of the proposals could be undertaken. For those that merit further consideration, the allocation was entered provisionally in the annual Estimates subject to the approval of the Development Planning Committee. In the course of the new financial year, the Budget Division, in consultation with the Ministries concerned, then made a more thorough assessment of these proposals and appropriate recommendations were put up to the Development Planning Committee.

In order to avoid the situation whereby projects involving Government policy are entered without the proper approval and also to reduce the workload at the peak of the Budget period as well as to allow a more thorough assessment of development proposals, a new procedure has been introduced. Henceforth, Ministries will submit proposals for new development projects at any time during the financial year. Such development projects will then be processed in the normal way and because the rush of preparing the Budget is avoided, more accurate estimates can be obtained. The vote has, therefore, been increased as funds for new projects are no longer provided under each Ministry's head of expenditure. Projects approved in the course of financial year 1977 will, therefore, be met from this vote in the first instance and in the following financial year the approved projects will be shown in the annual Estimates under the appropriate Ministry's head of expenditure. New development proposals received before the Budget exercise totalled $147 million and therefore the provision for this vote has been increased by about $100 million.

With regard to the questions which the Member asked, I am not quite sure whether I have got them correctly. But in the case of under-estimation. I think a new cost-benefit analysis, if this is necessary, can be done and is done before it goes in the form of a recommendation to the Development Planning Committee for approval of the additional allocation of funds. Of course, it is very desirable if one can keep to the prices which are originally estimated, but this is very often impossible because certain factors have not been taken into account. For example, if the load-bearing qualities of the soil are not known beforehand, there is no way in which we can prevent estimates for piling to be increased.

As to getting a better rapport with departments that under-estimate. I hope this will be achieved by our new Budget procedures where we will have a performance-oriented budget. People in Ministries will have to explain why they have over-estimated or under-estimated, and the failure or lack of performance will bring its penalty in the appropriations in the following year which would be in accordance with the performance.

Mr Goh Chok Tong: Sir, I am satisfied with the reply of the Minister and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Chairman: Before I call on the Member for Sembawang, may I remind Members that it is only 10 minutes away from guillotine time and there are three other Members who have put down amendments.

6.45 p.m.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 8101.

Sir, the provision for this subhead last year was $250,000. This year it is $150,000. What is the provision for? What are the matters for study? What contribution will it make to our economic development? Can it forecast our economic prospect and give us guidelines as to the direction our economy will be heading? What type of experts will be or are engaged in these studies and whether they are local experts or from overseas?

Mr Hon Sui Sen: Sir, this is a central vote to finance Economic and Technical Feasibility Studies required by all Government Ministries. This year the Ministry has allocated a sum of $150,000 which will be adequate to finance on-going projects, such as the payment for Computer handling charges for the extraction of employment and wage data from the Central Provident Fund records required for manpower planning. Provision has also been made to finance inter alia further requirements to the Ministry's economic module, studies on town planning, transportation and preparations for the next population census. The vote will also be used to finance studies not presently foreseen. On-going studies are being undertaken by local officers. Foreign consultants may be involved in the new studies.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir,I am satisfied with the Minister's reply. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ngeow Pack Hua (Boon Lay): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead CAA 8201* (*The same amendment also stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong).

Sir, because of time I will just raise a few questions for the Minister for Finance. This is a provision of $245.9 million loan to the JTC for industrial development, housing and infrastructure developments. How much of this provision is specifically allotted to JTC for residential housing? Secondly, how many units of flats have been completed in Boon Lay Garden and how many are vacant and for how long, and why are they vacant? Thirdly, I would like the Minister to tell us whether action will be taken to improve the facilities in Boon Lay Garden especially with regard to the lifts. Fourthly, is the Minister aware that the hawker inspectors there are very fierce and unreasonable in their attitude towards the hawkers in Boon Lay Garden? I hope the Minister and JTC senior officials will pay close attention to this matter.

Mr Ho Kah Leong (Jurong): (In Mandarin): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, because of time factor I would like briefly to ask my questions. Firstly, whether the JTC intends to build five-room low cost flats in Jurong Constituency. Secondly, whether the JTC intends to publish for its flat-residents a free publication similar to the magazine. Our Home, published by the HDB; Thirdly, whether the JTC has been regularly cleaning up the water tanks in the Jurong housing estate because of the high content of salt in the water which is corrosive to the tanks; Fourthly, whether the JTC is whitewashing the flats in Jurong Town once every five years; Fifthly, whether priority will be given to those who are affected by resettlement in the allocation of vacant shop premises in old housing estates?

Mr Hon Sui Son: Sir, in answer to the Member for Boon Lay, the Jurong Town Corporation's objective in constructing low-cost flats is to provide adequate accommodation for workers to attract the necessary labour to meet the requirements of industry in Jurong. Thus the Jurong Town Corporation restricted the sale and rental of its flats to people working in Jurong only. As a result of the recent recession, however. the demand for industrial land in Jurong dropped and this also led to a drop in demand for housing. The JTC has, therefore, offered 730 units of three-room flats in Boon Lay Garden to the Housing Board for sale to those on its waiting list for the Telok Blangah. Bukit Timah and the Rural West zones. In addition, recognising the increased personal mobility of workers, the JTC has opened applications for its flats to those working around Jurong, that is, within the area bounded by Choa Chu Kang Road. Bukit Timah Road and Clementi Road.

Clogged drains and untidy open spaces were caused by debris from renovation works carried out by flat owners and unsatisfactory performance by the previous conservancy contractors. Most of the renovation works have now been completed. The unsatisfactory condition of lifts in certain flats was due to poor maintenance services by one of the lift companies. However. maintenance services have improved and the frequency of breakdowns reduced.

In reply to the Member for Jurong, the Corporation has no immediate plans to build more five-room flats in Jurong Town as there are now sufficient flats available, including those under construction, to meet the demand for the immediate future. Secondly, it may be uneconomical as well as a duplication of effort for the JTC to produce another publication similar to the Housing Board publication of Our Home. However, as a service to its tenants and lessees, the Corporation is negotiating with the Housing Board for the joint production of the magazine, Our Home. As negotiations are in their final stages, the distribution of the joint magazine to the residents in Jurong Town may be expected in the near future.

Thirdly, a programme was drawn up late last year for more regular cleansing of water tanks. Under this programme water tanks are flushed every six months and repainted every five years. Whenever necessary, flushing or repainting may be carried out earlier.

Fourthly, there is a regular programme for repainting of flats every five years. In accordance with the programme. 18 blocks of flats were repainted in 1975 and 17 blocks of flats in 1976. This year 16 blocks are scheduled for repainting.

Finally, resettlement cases are already being accorded priority in the allocation of shop houses that fall vacant. Tendering of shops is done only when there is no demand by resettlers or when resettlement cases wish to use the shops for trade or service already adequately provided in the area.

Mr Ngeow Pack Hua: I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr Ho Kah Leong.

(10) That the sum to be allocated for Head X be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead DAA 8201.

Mr Ho Kah Leong: I am not moving, Sir.

The sum of $809,006,590 for Head X ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $659,280,000 for Head X ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Head J -

The following amendment stood in the name of Mr P. Govindaswamy:-

(1) That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead ABA 1101.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: I am not moving, Sir.

The Chairman: Amendment No. (2). Mr P. Govindaswamy.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead BAA 1101'.

Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Anti-Pollution Unit was set up a few years ago because of the danger which we would face if initial action had not been taken to check the various polluting agents that were growing in our midst. This unit is doing its best to control and overcome the various problems of pollution.

However, it has been stated recently that air pollution in our country is on the increase. The presence of smog has been found in some parts of the island. This could be due to pollution created by smoke from the numerous industries scattered all over our island, power stations, vehicles and other polluting agents.

I believe this Unit has set certain guidelines to industries to eradicate pollution. It is noticed that a number of industries have been reluctant to comply with anti-pollution measures. Why is this so? Perhaps a study could be made to find out why these industries are violating the regulations.

Steps should be taken now to rectify the problem, otherwise it would endanger the health of our people in later years, when remedial action may be too late or expensive.

The Minister for Law and the Environment (Mr E. W. Barker): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am replying on behalf of the Prime Minister.

Since 1971 the Anti-Pollution Unit has been monitoring the air for various pollutants which may have direct or indirect effects on health. While the smoke level has decreased, other pollutants such as sulphur dioxide have increased. This is mainly due to the increase in the consumption of oil by our industries, power stations and motor vehicles.

Some factories have refused to comply or have been reluctant to comply because it increases their costs. Because of the bad period in the past year we have not been rather strict in enforcement, but in the future we will have to take stricter measures. `The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Ivan Baptist and Ahmad Haleem. Sometimes, of course, air pollution is caused by poor maintenance and operation of plant and equipment. In order not to affect the viability of some of these industries, adequate time has been allowed to comply with anti-pollution measures. But Members may be interested to know that in 1976, the Unit inspected over 900 factories to ensure that preventive as well as palliative measures are taken to minimise the pollution of the air. Tests were also carried out in various factories to check on dust and acid emissions to ensure that they do not exceed the specified limits.

7.00 p.m.

The Member may be interested to know that the Unit has recently acquired more sophisticated equipment and has been able to detect the presence of ozone which is the main constituent of photochemical oxidant or sometimes called photochemical smog. Photochemical oxidants are detected on some hot days during the afternoon and are formed by the interaction of pollutants such as hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen which are emitted by motor vehicles, factories, power stations and all combustion processes. The reaction in the atmosphere is very complex and it also depends on the condition of the atmosphere such as temperature, relative humidity, wind and the relative concentration of the pollutants. This oxidant disappears as the sun goes down.

Sir, as I have said, the Unit is at present studying the position in detail and may introduce control measures to reduce the emission of some of the pollutants such as hydrocarbons which I mentioned before were the precursors to photochemical smog.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, I am befuddled with the way the Minister has handled this matter. He has anticipated quite a number of my questions.

Sir, water pollution is also another problem that has to be tackled with redoubled effort. The Prime Minister spoke of the possibility of having fishing in the Singapore and Kallang Rivers in 10 years' time when he declared open the $55 million Upper Peirce Reservoir on the 27th February this year. Targets must be set to ensure a successful programme for unpolluted air and water in Singapore. I am sure the House would like to be enlightened on the targets that the Anti-Pollution Unit has set itself and the programmes it has in mind to achieve its targets. What bothers me is haw targets are to be met when one compares in the Main and Development Estimates FY 76 and FY 77 that staff have been reduced by 5.4% and EOM and OOE increased by a mere 6% and 3% respectively. In addition, there is no provision in the Development Estimates.

Mr Ahmad Haleem (Telok Blangah): Sir, I am not speaking.

Mr Barker: Sir, the Anti-Pollution Unit has objectives. It has got no targets. The target in one respect has been fixed by the Prime Minister who has asked to clean up the Singapore River and the Kallang River and set the target date of 10 years within which he wants to see fish swimming in these two rivers. That settles the water question.

As for air, again we do not have any targets. The air is not so bad that we have got to clean it up, say, within five or 10 years. The objective is to keep the air we breathe as clean as it is today or even cleaner. With the introduction of industries into Singapore, the air is being polluted by many industries and the work of the Unit is to see that this pollution in the air does not become so bad that you and I cannot safely breathe the air.

Both the Clean Air Act and the Water Pollution and Drainage Act set out the requirements on the emission of pollutants and effluent discharges from premises. Our basic approach to the solution of air and water pollution problems is to deal with them at source through preventive and palliative measures. This is complemented by public education on the need to control and minimise environmental pollution and by enforcement action.

New industries are carefully screened to ensure that they are not too polluting and are carefully located in industrial areas without adversely affecting residential estates. Both new and existing industries are required to install anti-pollution equipment, improve on their house-keeping and operation in order to reduce air pollution. They are also required to use the best practical means to control noxious emissions from their factories.

On water pollution, the Ministry of the Environment has a section in the Sewerage Department to deal with this problem. For some years now it has embarked on a programme to prevent and control discharge of wastewater into the open drains and canals from domestic, trade and industrial premises as well as from farms. This section also advises house-owners how to divert wastewater from their premises to the sewers, and the industries on how to deal with trade effluent. This keeps the Chairman of the PUB happy.

The most effective method of controlling water pollution is the extension of sewerage to all premises and to ensure that wastewater goes into sewers and not into open drains.

If we are to use the word "target", the target is to sewer the whole island finally. But it is not an easy process nor is it an easy process to clean up the Kallang and Singapore Rivers. However, the Member can rest assured that a plan is being worked out to meet this target set by the Prime Minister. Many run-down areas in the older parts of the city would have to be redeveloped. Open markets and street hawkers must be cleared and resited to proper premises where sewerage and other sanitary facilities are available. Only then can refuse be systematically collected and disposed of and wastewater properly channelled into the sewers.

I think the Member will agree that though the Government can provide sanitary facilities, the ultimate success in our clean-up programme would depend on the cooperation of every member of the public. No litter should be thrown or wastewater discharged indiscriminately into our open drains. Only then can our canals and rivers be free from pollution.

As for the employment position, the Member has quoted some figures. I am afraid I do not have the answers to those figures. All I can assure the Member is that there has been no reduction in staff in this Unit. There are a few vacancies but the positions are still there. The Unit itself is doing more and more work and will be increasing the scope and nature of its activities.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, two weeks ago, there was dust in the sky. I was told that if it had rained during that period, it would have spread diseases. Where did the dust come from? Can the Minister for Law and the Environment explain?

An hon. Member: From Kota Tinggi!

Mr Barker: Sir, the Ministry has made investigations. I myself saw this dust flying in the air. But unfortunately we have not found the source. Members will remember that some years ago we had a haze in the sky which appeared on several days and evenings. Various causes were suggested. Some said it was caused by a forest fire in Johore. Some said from Sumatra. But till today nobody knows the answer. All this means we have got to be always careful to see that the air you and I breathe is fit for breathing.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, in view of the Minister's explanation, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by the whole sum in respect of subhead DAA 1101.

Sir, election comes once every five years or thereabouts. Is it because of this infrequency that the Elections Office bungles? Take the mass rush to community centres to check the electoral registers last year. Potential voters had to wait for hours and sometimes in the rain as there was little room in the community centres to cater for such large numbers. Most certainly there could be better planning, or could not a better system be devised? In addition to this, many who were listed in the electoral registers did not receive polling cards and others who voted in 1972 were left out completely in the 1976 electoral registers, although they voted in 1972.

Let me give you. Sir, further illustrations of the haphazard situation that must exist in the Elections Office. Husbands were sent to different polling stations and even different constituencies to vote although they lived in the constituency with their spouses for goodness knows how many years. Why this attempt to separate husbands and wives? Why this inconvenience? It is a well-known and established fact that it is cheaper and more convenient for both to accompany each other to the same polling station in the correct constituency, the constituency they have established house in and established relationship with their MPs. I have definite instances. Take Mr Fok Yew Woon, for instance. He lives in Potong Pasir. 14H Upper Serangoon Road. He was asked to vote in Aljunied I, Playfair Road School. Burn Road. His wife living in the same house was sent to Upper Serangoon III, Charlton School. Aroozoo Avenue - both rightly constituents of Potong Pasir, mind you. Sir. Mr Sawa Khan R, of 127E Upper Serangoon Road was sent to Potong Pasir II, Kwong Avenue School, Sennett Estate, and this is correct. But his poor wife, Madam Sathewa binte Abdullah also of 1 27E Upper Serangoon Road was sent many kilometres away to Upper Serangoon Ill, Charlton School. Aroozoo Avenue. I could go on and on. Sir, but I know your time and that of the House is most precious.

7.15 p.m.

Another matter is the great inconvenience to elderly voters who, because they understand the need to participate in the polls, have to climb up the stairs to the first floor to cast their votes. Most certainly. Sir, suitable ground floor premises can be obtained or some other methods of voting, like postal voting, to alleviate the hardship of the old and the feeble.

Mr Teo Chong Tee (Changi): Sir, with your kind permission, may I be allowed to say a few words in regard to the Elections Department?

The Chairman: Yes.

Mr Teo Chong Tee: In the last elections it appeared that the Presiding Officers in charge of polling stations did not execute their duties strictly and effectively, as was expected of them. In my constituency open canvassing went on in polling stations, with or without the knowledge of the Presiding Officers. In one instance, the Presiding Officer in charge was aware of the open canvassing that went on in his polling station, but no action was taken against the culprit concerned. In another instance, the Presiding Officer was not only not aware of the open canvassing that went on in the polling station under his charge but had mistaken the two canvassers to be his assistants. As I did not want to be too harsh with the two incidents I encountered at these two polling stations. I brought only one case to the attention of the police who subsequently took action against the culprit. The culprit was recently fined $300 for illegally carrying out canvassing activities within 200 metres of a polling station on polling day.

From these two incidents that I had highlighted, it appeared that the Presiding Officers were not sufficiently alert in enforcing the rules strictly and effectively to prevent such incidents from happening. I am sure that the same incidents also occurred in polling stations in other constituencies on 23rd December, 1 976. I wonder what steps the Elections Department will take to ensure that a stricter control is exercised to prevent such malpractices in' future elections.

Mr Barker: Sir, I do not think the Member for Changi needs an answer from me. He has answered his own question. It is up to him to take action and make a report to the Presiding Officer or the police. He has done that. As for the future, what can we do? If canvassing takes place, as prohibited, then it is his duty to report it to the Presiding Officer or to the police. and leave it to them. This happens in all elections. People get excited and sometimes they do worse things, at least in this country no one has died as a result of an election.

As for the Member for Potong Pasir, perhaps I could point out to him that cases of persons having to go and vote in another constituency or of names of persons not on the register need not arise if these people had gone to check the registers of electors when they were exhibited. The errors in the registers could have been rectified then. As the Member himself has pointed out. "there was not enough time", "standing in the rain" and "there is no place in the community centre", but as far as I remember the position was this. The registers were exhibited over a period of time. People could not be bothered to find out whether their names were there. Then some bright spark started a rumour in Singapore, a rumour to the effect that if you did not vote, then not only would you not have the chance to vote, but cancellation or absence of your name from the register of voters would have disastrous results like the loss of your citizenship, followed by loss of your Housing Board flat, and followed by lots of other privileges that Singapore citizens have. As a result of this rumour, and rumour spreads very quickly in Singapore, all the community centres were jammed with worried Singapore citizens. That was the position. They checked too late. As a result the Government had to come out with an announcement that none of these evils would befall anybody if his name was not on the register. All it meant was that he could not vote. He could always have his name restored in the register if he has a valid excuse for non-voting or pay a sum of $5.

The Member has given the names and addresses of some of his constituents.

Mr Ivan Baptist: They are not all my constituents according to the polling cards sent by the Elections Department.

Mr Barker: It is not possible for me to give an answer to his questions as to why they were left out or why they had to vote in another constituency unless the circumstances of their cases are looked into.

Perhaps I should tell Members how the registers of electors are compiled from the records of the National Registration Office. Changes of address can be made at community centres, the office of the Commissioner of National Registration or the Central Manpower Base for national servicemen and SAF personnel. To effect a change of address, a form is completed on behalf of the applicant. At this stage possible errors can occur. It is quite simple. Change of address is written as 1411. By an error it goes down as 1411. Instead of being in that part of Bukit Timah near Woodlands, you end up somewhere near Newton Circus. This is only just an example. These mistakes have been made. There may be a translation error. Au Kang 5 ms could be either Yio Chu Kang or Upper Serangoon Road.

These change of address forms at the community centres are then posted to the National Registration Office. The completed forms are then despatched by the National Registration Office to the Elections Department for coding. They are then posted. Some of them do not even arrive and hence the husband could be voting at one place and the wife at another. The coded data are fed into the computer at the Computer Services Department to update the registers of electors. Even in the process of coding and punching the data into the computer, errors of misleading the figures could arise.

There are many permutations and combinations of errors which I need not go into, but perhaps I could sum up by urging Members of this House that if they are aware of such cases they should advise the persons concerned to have the errors in the registers of electors rectified. This can be done either at the Elections Department or at the next exhibition of registers of electors. I do not know when, and unless there is a by-election in Potong Pasir (Laughter], they will have to wait five years.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education (Mr Ahmad Mattar): Sir, just a point of observation. I do not quite agree with the example given by the Minister. I agree with him that 1411 could become 1411. But if it is 1411 Woodlands Drive. for example, the worst that could happen is 1411 becoming 1411 Woodlands Drive, the "Woodlands Drive" would not be affected.

Mr Barker: Perhaps my example is not the best. Let me give the Member another one. The number is 14L instead of 14l. This "L" is so written that the bottom part of the "L" is merged with the bottom line. So it is no longer 14L. It becomes 141. So instead of 14L Bukit Timah Road, it could be 141 Bukit Timah Road. The result could be that the person with that address could either be voting in Cairnhill, or Tanglin or Ulu Pandan. If you take it further, Bukit Timah. Or if the figure gets bigger, to 1400, he ends up in Woodlands or Bukit Panjang. But this is just an example. These errors do happen. I use the letter "I" but you can have it either way. If the letter "L", it depends on which part of the "L" is merged with which part of the line.

Mr Ahmad Mattar: Sir, I agree that this is a better example.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, I did raise another point; the possibility of introducing, say, postal balloting for the old and the feeble.

Mr Barker: Perhaps postal balloting for the old and the feeble who live in Singapore is practical. We were even at this stage thinking of postal balloting not only for those in Singapore but for those outside. But it could lead to practical problems because we cannot send the ballot papers out until we know who is standing in Potong Pasir, whether it is Mr Baptist or his rival. It is no use having a nomination form and just putting a PAP candidate. So those ballot papers cannot go out to the constituents until Nomination Day and the papers have been printed in the Government Printing Office. That having been done, perhaps two or three days later they are posted out. If the address is in Singapore it is all right. If the address is in New Zealand or Timbuctoo, by the time the nomination paper reaches the Singapore citizen, elections would have been over, if we confine our elections campaigning to nine or 10 days. In 1968 we had it for two months. If there is a reasonable period, say, two or three months, then our constituents outside Singapore will be able to receive their ballot papers and post them back in time.

7.30 p.m.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, why not then just the ground floor premises instead of the first floor for the old and the feeble?

Mr Barker: Sir, he has gone on to another subject. I think this point was probably not carefully looked into by the Presiding Officer or he did not think about it. But I do remember old and feeble persons being carried into voting stations by religious nuns who were there to see that these old people exercise their right to vote. The Member has a point and I am sure whoever is in charge of the polling station will bear this in mind so that in future the voter does not have to climb one storey or perhaps even two or three storeys. So let them vote on the ground floor.

Mr Ivan Baptist: Actually when I was in the Members Room, another fellow Member said, "Look, what is your problem? I have close to 100. They have been voting in some other constituency although they are living in my constituency and they have been seeking my assistance in my meet-the-people sessions. Yours is a small problem really." True. I realise it is a small problem but still a problem. However, as the Hon. Minister has said that early necessary correction need be made if there is a possibility of a by-election, let me hastily withdraw my amendment!

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg to move,

That the sum to be allocated for Head J be reduced by $10 in respect of subhead AAA 8201*. (*The same amendment also stood in the names of Messrs Ivan Baptist. Ahmad Haleem and Ch'ng Jit Koon.)

Sir, during the last few years the rates for public utilities have been revised. This could not be avoided because of the increased cost of production. Whilst accepting the reasons for the increased charges, it is also observed that the PUB has, replaced new meters in certain homes and places. The reason for changing the meters is that they are not functioning properly. However, these new meters have produced heavy bills to the consumers. I understand that in every new meter for electricity an extra 1% is turned on in the set prior to installation. Why must this extra 1% be charged to the consumers whose old meters were removed by the PUB? Even the gas meters have resulted in heavy bills. These increases are due to the installation of new meters. Sir, the question is, if old meters are not functioning properly, why not repair and recondition them, instead of replacing them with new ones?

Sir, when the PUB gas is frequently used in homes, there is a tendency of the gas leaking from the gas pipe though the appliance is not in use. This leak will increase the gas consumption. Could the PUB not think of a system whereby the gas will not seep off when it is not in use?

There is a speculation that the authorities are considering the use of only piped gas supplied by the PUB for cooking appliances. This is because of accidents or dangers posed by gas supplied by other means. Could a clarification on this be given?

Sir, it is noted that after a major power failure on last Deepavali Eve, there were scattered power breakdowns in certain areas of the island every now and then. Why is this so? Is it because the faults of that major power failure have not been properly rectified?

Finally, when the rates of public utilities are being reviewed, I suggest that if there is any surcharge on the new bills, it should not apply to appliances hired from the PUB,

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, it is with considerable interest that I note the reply to the Oral Question raised by the Member for Jurong in regard to the salt content of the water supply in Jurong. The Hon. Minister on 3rd September, 1976 replied and I quote: [Hansard, Vol. 35, No. 12, col. 1008]

"The water supplied from the Choa Chu Kang Water Treatment Works is well within the WHO Drinking Water Standards and is perfectly safe for potable use."

Then again the Minister for National Development and Communications in a speech on the 27th February, 1977 at the opening of Upper Peirce Reservoir hastened to reassure consumers, when he referred to the PUB being inundated with complaints about the strange taste of the water from the Pandan Reservoir, that (I quote):

"its quality is well within the WHO requirements for drinking water."

He went on in his speech to, once again, reiterate that (I quote):

"The water is potable and fit for domestic use as it is within the requirements of WHO. We should therefore be prepared to accept the different tastes of our water in the future."

I am sure that many of us do not know what the WHO Standard is. The WHO Standard. I believe, does not only speak about a maximum chloride content in parts per million or the total dissolved solids content in parts per million, I believe the WHO must go on to speak about many other requirements and the methods to determine the bacterial, biological and chemical purity of drinking water. I believe it is not necessary for water to be only safe to drink but also reasonably attractive to drink. It should be cool. clear, colourless and free from disagreeable odour and taste, apart from being free from organisms and faecal pollution and a control of pesticide levels. radiological activity and so on and so forth.

Precisely this. I believe, was a matter that was brought up by the Member for Jurong and there are many people who have complained to the PUB about the strange taste of the water. So while not doubting that the water supply to the people in Singapore in certain areas, especially that from the Pandan Reservoir, comes within the WHO Standard, it appears strange that so many people have complained about the strange taste of the water. It would be most informative if the Minister could tell the House whether the WHO Standard does cover this matter of taste and how did the PUB determine, if such a taste criteria were required by WHO, that the water from the Pandan Reservoir serving the people, in actual fact, comes to within the WHO Standard.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: In my speech during the debate on the Presidential Address, I mentioned daylight saving as a means of power conservation, and I would like to elaborate on this and perhaps give the historical background to daylight saving.

In 1784 Benjamin Franklin first proposed daylight saving but it was only in 1 907 that William Willet wrote a small pamphlet called Waste of Daylight. Subsequently, in 1908 Robert Pearce put it up in the British Parliament but it failed. In 1915, Germany became the first country in the world to introduce daylight saving and this was a measure for conservation of fuel and coal. This was followed in 1916 by Great Britain, 1917 by USA and all through the periods between the two world wars -

Mr Ivan Baptist: Sir, on a point of order, I do not see the relevance in this.

The Chairman: I suppose the relevance is that it would be a saving of energy, and the Public Utilities Board also generates electricity.

Mr Ivan Baptist: But, Sir, the Member has not come to it yet.

Mr Ahmad Haleem: Sir, I will be coming to it. The reason for the historical background is to point out that, in all these periods where daylight saving had been introduced, it had proved to be able to save power. During the Second World War, daylight saving was again adopted for the purpose of conserving fuel and coal, After the war, many countries continued with daylight saving for the same purpose, mainly the European countries. China and many other countries in the tropics followed, including Ghana, Sarawak, North Korea, Malaysia, and also Singapore. We do have half an hour daylight saving currently in force.

If Members are not aware of this, let me explain. The manner in which time zones are calculated is that every 1 5o Longitude equals one hour. Singapore is 103o East Longitude. and so we should be seven hours ahead of Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). If Members check up, they will find that we are instead 7? hours ahead of GMT. Singapore is, therefore, currently saving daylight by half an hour. This was introduced just after the Second World War. Again in 1968 the United Kingdom introduced daylight saving for the whole year round. But after the Yomkipur War, as a way of saving fuel in the United States, in 1974 daylight saving was introduced all year round for the whole nation as an experiment. This stopped in 1975.

All I am saying is that daylight saving is nothing new to Singapore. We have had daylight saving. We are still saving daylight presently. I would like to ask if the Hon. Minister for National Development and Communications would investigate and consider further daylight saving if it could usefully conserve fuel. Many members of the public have been complaining about the PUB charges. Maybe with the introduction of daylight saving, we could save some money for the public and also foreign exchange for Singapore in the costs of the fuel that we import.

The Chairman: Mr Ch'ng Jit Koon is not here. Mr Teong.

Mr Teong Eng Siong: (In Mandarin): Sir, I have only two simple questions to ask the Minister. The first is that I have received many complaints from the electors concerning the high increase in PUB charges. In my constituency, a consumer has his PUB bill increased by nearly 100% in three years. That is to say, three years ago his PUB bill was about $100. Nowadays, it is about $200. I would like the Minister to clarify this point. Is it possible to increase the rate 100% in three years when his rate of consumption remains the same?

The second question concerns the fixing of water meters in hawker centres. At present, there is one meter for every four hawkers. Some hawkers complain to me that this is very inconvenient, because some stalls use more water and some use less but they have to pay a pro rata rate. Therefore, I would like to ask the Minister to consider the feasibility of fixing one meter for each hawker stall. The Minister concerned is the Minister for National Development and he is also the Chairman of the Public Utilities Board. Therefore, he should fully understand the problems of both sides and be able to compromise. I hope he will give serious consideration to this question.

7.45 p.m.

The Minister for National Development and Communications (Mr Lim Kim San): Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I shall take the last speaker first. The Member for Sembawang has complained again about increase in PUB water charges. The water rate, of course, has increased. I do not know whether or not he realises that costs have increased and, as I have repeatedly said, we are going into unconventional sources of water supply. Water is more polluted and, therefore, the cost of treatment is high. Moreover, to discourage wastage of water, water rates are now calculated on a block basis. Every family is given a basic block of 25 cubic metres. (I am not too sure of this figure). That is the first block to which every family is entitled, and it is charged at a certain rate. If the consumption goes beyond the first block, the rate increases and if it still goes beyond that, it increases still further. Therefore, though the consumption of water, in the case he has referred to, remains the same, the consumer has to pay more because of increasing charges and perhaps also because of the block rates. There is no over-charge.

Now, the question of the hawkers wanting a meter each. I think we have more than half a million accounts at the moment. Hon. Members have been complaining about mistakes made in reading meters by meter readers. In the case of hawkers, we are going out of our way to supply one meter for every four hawkers. I think for their convenience surely the four hawkers can come to some sort of an agreement among themselves to share PUB charges. Only when and if hawkers and members of the public can read the meters themselves, and when we have enough meters. will the position be reconsidered.

I am very indebted to the hon. Member for the short history of daylight saving. His suggestion is that if we further advance the clock in Singapore we may save on fuel. The maximum difference in time in Singapore throughout the year is 45 minutes, We have already advanced the clock by half an hour. If we further advance the clock, I am afraid that instead of saving money on fuel we may have to spend more money on fuel because people will have to wake up earlier in the morning when it is still dark to prepare breakfast for their children going to school. I think we have achieved the maximum in daylight saving by advancing the clock by half an hour. Daylight saving has been most useful in countries which have seasonal changes and where the difference in time between winter and summer is quite wide. For his information, let me say that we have already considered the position and we think that half an hour is the maximum that we can achieve without adversely disrupting the economy and social habits and customs.

I am very glad that the Member for Potong Pasir has given me the chance to further elaborate on what is meant by WHO drinking water standard. The WHO drinking water standards which I have mentioned in this House as well as in my address at the opening of the Upper Peirce Reservoir recently, are parameters recommended by the World Health Organisation in its publication, "International Standards for Drinking Water." I believe that by his very eloquent description of how drinking water should look and taste, he can probably add greatly to the publication, However, the parameters mentioned by the World Health Organisation are purely technical and they relate to chemical substances in drinking water for domestic use. Besides salinity, colour and organic contents of water, they also mention the limits for other chemical substances, such as calcium, copper, iron, magnesium, manganese and sulphate. I suppose that if these comprise the minimum content of water, it would have a certain taste. If this is exceeded, of course, the water is unpalatable. There is also a recommended limit for ph value of water as well as its hardness. The quality of treated water from the Kranji and Pandan reservoirs is well within this limit. If the Member for Potong Pasir is really interested, I can give him a copy of the WHO recommended limits of chemical substances in drinking water for domestic use.

To come to my very good friend, the Member for Anson. I should first speak on the subject which I had occasion to refer to previously. I have here a copy of a PUB bill which I believe everyone must have seen. This is a PUB bill [indicating]. I believe most Members must have handled it at one time or other, except those who are fortunate enough to have their bills paid by someone else. I think Members must have had a look at the bill closely, otherwise they would not have complained of an increase in the water charges or that there has been a mistake. If they were to look carefully at the bill, they will see an item "Government tax on $90.12." I have already had occasion to explain that this is not a surcharge. This is a Government tax on PUB bills, including rentals on gas or other appliances. Much as I would like to debate on this Government tax with the hon. Member. I cannot do so because I believe the prerogative belongs to my colleague, the Minister for Finance who has said in this House that, in conjunction with the increase in oil prices, there would be a review of this tax. Members should remember that this is not a surcharge. This is a Government tax: The Member can bring the matter up with the Minister for Finance.

His complaint was that bills have been heavy. Well. if he uses more, he pays more. That is a fact. The hon. Member is right when he says that new electricity meters are calibrated 1% higher. The reason is this. We know that meters are clock-work machines and with continuous use they deteriorate and would not be accurate. And unfortunately for public utility bodies, as meters deteriorate, they tend to under-register. Electricity meters tend to under-register by as much as 3%. Therefore, in the long run this is to the advantage of the consumer. So for a start, the electricity meter is calibrated 1% higher. This is the practice of most utility bodies. Electricity meters are not changed until ten years later. So it is with water and gas meters. As they deteriorate, we change them. Either we recondition the meters, if they can be reconditioned, or we change them for new meters. Gas and water meters are changed on the average every four to six years.

Regarding gas leakage, normally there is no gas leakage if the appliance is closed tightly. If there is leakage, you can smell it, and when you do. telephone the PUB immediately. They will come and repair the appliance. In this way, you would not waste money through gas leakage. Regarding the restriction in the use of gas, the PUB does not want a monopoly. In fact, it welcomes the use of liquid petroleum gas. However, its use is restricted in food centres for reason of safety. Hawker centres tend to attract crowd and accidents can happen with such gas containers, and if the containers of liquid petroleum gas should explode, it could cause a lot of damage and injury. It is for safety reasons that the use of liquid petroleum gas is not allowed in hawker centres. It is not because the PUB wants to monopolise the business.

As for power failures, I have here art article entitled "The Great Blackout of 1960". In 1976 at 5.50 p.m. the lights began to flicker in Salt Lake City. Then, quite a large part of America was affected. A committee to look into it was formed and the report has just come to hand. The conclusion of this report is that "you can do everything but you can never eliminate blackout". We have done everything we can here. We cannot eliminate blackout. But the blackouts that we have from time to time are minor ones. A major one occurred on Deepavali eve.

The Chairman: Mr Minister, would you be long in your reply, or would you like to continue tomorrow?

8.00 p.m.

Mr Lim Kim San: I am finishing it now. As I have said, we cannot eliminate blackout. But these minor failures are not due to the major fault that developed over Deepavali eve. I hope I have replied to all the questions raised.

Mr P. Govindaswamy: Sir, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn

The sum of $5,852,700 for Head J ordered to stand part of the Main Estimates.

The sum of $55,060,830 for Head J ordered to stand part of the Development Estimates.

Thereupon Mr Deputy Speaker left the Chair of the Committee and took the Chair of the House.

Mr Lim Kim San: Mr Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to report that the Committee of Supply has made further progress on the Main and Development Estimates of Expenditure for the financial year 1st April, 1977 to 31st March, 1978, and ask leave to sit again tomorrow.

Mr Deputy Speaker: So be it.